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wandalee
12-06-2014, 05:22 PM
#1 S. Carolina comes to CIS tomorrow. Game time is 1:00 and will be shown on ESPN2. Tickets are $4 for Duke employees.

Don't know if Elizabeth will be back for this one, but we have really missed her presence in the last 2 games.

blev23
12-06-2014, 09:19 PM
Can anyone tell me if IPAD's are allowed in Cameron for the womens game?

wandalee
12-07-2014, 08:55 AM
Don't know if Ipads are allowed or not, but my guess would be "yes". They really don't check people coming in the door, though they perform a cursory check of handbags. Might be smart to call the ticket office in advance to check.

And per today's Herald-Sun, Elizabeth will play today.

DevilWearsPrada
12-07-2014, 11:10 AM
Can anyone tell me if IPAD's are allowed in Cameron for the womens game?

I have taken my Ipad into Cameron and Wallace WAde!!!!!!! I follow other games on my Ipad, more so during Football season.

Many people take pictures, videos with their Ipads and tablets!

DU82
12-07-2014, 11:48 AM
South Carolina brought a LOT of people. There's four buses parked outside in WW.

Riggs will start, I assume in place of KJ.

fisheyes
12-07-2014, 12:25 PM
Tons of SC fans in the building making it seem like an away game for Duke. What's up with that? Embarrassing.

Duvall
12-07-2014, 12:47 PM
Tons of SC fans in the building making it seem like an away game for Duke. What's up with that? Embarrassing.

Embarrassing for whom?

fisheyes
12-07-2014, 01:14 PM
Embarrassing for whom?

Really? For us of course. The Duke fan base.

Duvall
12-07-2014, 01:23 PM
Really? For us of course. The Duke fan base.

I guess. This team is not an easy sell to casual fans, though.

fisheyes
12-07-2014, 01:27 PM
I guess. This team is not an easy sell to casual fans, though.

I am watching while doing some work at home. It's really a painful game to watch. I am hanging in because it's Duke of course. So sloppy on offense. The Duke defense in rebounding is pretty good though.

fisheyes
12-07-2014, 01:35 PM
Ok...I take it back...the Duke crowd is really into it now! Go Duke!!!

fisheyes
12-07-2014, 02:01 PM
Turnovers. Ugh.

dukelifer
12-07-2014, 02:03 PM
Tough loss for Duke- ball handling is going to be their issue all season. Still they competed.

loran16
12-07-2014, 02:04 PM
Unacceptable. This is a team with top 3 recruiting classes two years in a row, top 10 the prior two years. This is unacceptable performance this season - particularly the end of that game.

BlueTeuf
12-07-2014, 02:05 PM
Well we won the timeout battle - had more left at the buzzer.

BlueTeuf
12-07-2014, 02:07 PM
Well,I was just being wry and snide. I'm not thinking that was unacceptable. I'm proud of the team. Could be a nice season ahead.

Duvall
12-07-2014, 02:10 PM
Well,I was just being wry and snide. I'm not thinking that was unacceptable. I'm proud of the team. Could be a nice season ahead.

Well, maybe. Still, we should all support the players, who trying hard and trying their best.

burnspbesq
12-07-2014, 02:15 PM
Unacceptable. This is a team with top 3 recruiting classes two years in a row, top 10 the prior two years. This is unacceptable performance this season - particularly the end of that game.

Oh, gee. A team that has no ACC-caliber PG and starts three freshman loses by 1 to number 1. The sky is falling. Shoot me now.

GGLC
12-07-2014, 02:20 PM
Offense is overrated.

buddy
12-07-2014, 04:33 PM
Three straight losses, in each of which we shot 33.3% of less from the field. That will not cut it. The lack of a point guard is huge, but can't anyone make a shot? Very young team, competed well. I'll assume Williams is still hurting, but she disappeared on offense. She seemed to give up playing in the post sometime in the first half. Stevens was a beast on the boards. Probably our best player today. Don't know why McCallie didn't call time out when Becca got trapped before turning it over, or after SC's last basket to at least try to set up a desperation heave.

I thought the team deserved a better outcome. This team has limitations, and at times played tight (see Chidom, Oderah, although she stepped up big late). Good second half comeback; however, when you lead by 4 with 30 seconds left on your own court, you need to figure out how to win.

loran16
12-07-2014, 04:42 PM
Oh, gee. A team that has no ACC-caliber PG and starts three freshman loses by 1 to number 1. The sky is falling. Shoot me now.

Meh, if we had won one of the two prior games Burn, I'd agree with you. And there is someone at fault for the point guard situation you know :-(.

You know this team better than me, but I just have expectations that we can break through once in a while. Hasn't happened.

aswewere
12-07-2014, 05:16 PM
Hope next year with all the guards coming on board we will rework our offense. The sets we run could
not get Liston many open looks or Becca this year against good competition.

Duvall
12-07-2014, 05:17 PM
Hope next year with all the guards coming on board we will rework our offense. The sets we run could
not get Liston many open looks or Becca this year against good competition.

Will we, though?

aswewere
12-07-2014, 05:32 PM
Will we, though?

About 5 years overdue if that will speed things up.

AIM4excellence
12-07-2014, 09:50 PM
Will we, though?

8 years of basically the same offense says NO. Don't know if it's a lack of knowledge or a lack of effort but our offense hasn't changed much no matter who the players are. We can't score against elite teams. We had the best PG in the country already. Elite teams knew to take her out of the offense. Even with two elite PG's on the floor together, we can't score against top teams. And, has been pointed out, our talent level is, at the least, top 5 in the country. How do we have the same stalled offense with 8 different sets of highly talented players? It ain't the players. And it ain't the lack of player talent.

uh_no
12-07-2014, 10:12 PM
8 years of basically the same offense says NO. Don't know if it's a lack of knowledge or a lack of effort but our offense hasn't changed much no matter who the players are. We can't score against elite teams. We had the best PG in the country already. Elite teams knew to take her out of the offense. Even with two elite PG's on the floor together, we can't score against top teams. And, has been pointed out, our talent level is, at the least, top 5 in the country. How do we have the same stalled offense with 8 different sets of highly talented players? It ain't the players. And it ain't the lack of player talent.

while i agree with your overall thesis....i'm not sure this game is particularly meaningful...consider:

#2 ND got waxed by #3 uconn yesterday after going large segments of the game without scoring....scoring 2 points over 10 minutes in the first half (while giving up 22...)....nobody is questioning muffet mcGraw because they graduated 3 starters off last years team

So why should a duke team that lost 4 starters be more criticized?

there is certainly grounds to criticize P's offensive methodology, but this game simply doesn't add much fuel to that fire IMO. If anything, it's admirable it was such a close game, given the challenges the team faces.....given I don't think carolina is the best team...maybe 4 or 5....but still impressive)

miramar
12-07-2014, 10:49 PM
Speaking about Duke's last possession in the backcourt, where USC stole the ball with about ten seconds left, "Duke coach Joanne P. McCallie said she was ready to call a timeout but wasn’t sure if Greenwell was trapped or not."

If a player is surrounded by two defenders with her back to the sideline, I would respectfully suggest that a coach should automatically assume that she's trapped.

http://www.heraldsun.com/sports/colleges/x761897178/Late-basket-lifts-No-1-South-Carolina-past-No-9-Duke

BlueTeuf
12-07-2014, 11:00 PM
Concur - I made a cryptic comment upthread that was reacting to Duke's non-utilization of timeouts.

I thought maybe we didn't want a timeout; Greenwell fouled puts a capable shooter on the line. Not saying I agreed - but at least there was a logic to it.

However, the failure to call a timeout after SC scored the final bucket made no sense to me at all. Sure, there was only about 1.8 secs left but we had the timeout and could always get fouled going for a competed inbounds lob.

Nonetheless, I'm not seeing this loss as that big a deal. It's Dec 7th - we're young and incomplete. Better days ahead.

killerleft
12-07-2014, 11:19 PM
Everyone who cares about Duke Women's Basketball knew before the season started that several issues would have to be tended to before we could become a contender for any postseason honors.

I really wish that the more shrill and negative posts could be withheld for a bit longer. The team deserves it and the coaches deserve it. Heck, maybe even I deserve it.:o I certainly didn't expect it to start just after we almost toppled the number one team in the country. It was a disappointing loss, not a crippling one.

Go Duke!

burnspbesq
12-08-2014, 02:55 AM
Yes, I'm disappointed that we didn't close the deal on Sunday, but it doesnt change the big picture.

This team's ceiling is 20-23 wins, fourth in the ACC, and maybe the Sweet Sixteen.

We showed up at a gunfight with a knife and a nail file at the point. And if you didn't see this coming within 30 seconds after Alexis Jones' ACL tear was diagnosed, you weren't paying attention. Even if she hadn't transferred, the best-case scenario was that she would be cleared for basketball activities right about now, and might be ready to play 25 minutes a night by the Syracuse game.

And if she hadn't transferred, who knows whether we get Salvadores or Lambert, both of whom have more upside.

This is the year we grin and bear it. 15-16 and 16-17 are the years when we kill 'em all and let God sort it out.

aswewere
12-08-2014, 05:20 AM
Everyone who cares about Duke Women's Basketball knew before the season started that several issues would have to be tended to before we could become a contender for any postseason honors.

I really wish that the more shrill and negative posts could be withheld for a bit longer. The team deserves it and the coaches deserve it. Heck, maybe even I deserve it.:o I certainly didn't expect it to start just after we almost toppled the number one team in the country. It was a disappointing loss, not a crippling one.

Go Duke!

My point was not about this game or this year its about our out dated offense.

jv001
12-08-2014, 06:01 AM
Yes, I'm disappointed that we didn't close the deal on Sunday, but it doesnt change the big picture.

This team's ceiling is 20-23 wins, fourth in the ACC, and maybe the Sweet Sixteen.

We showed up at a gunfight with a knife and a nail file at the point. And if you didn't see this coming within 30 seconds after Alexis Jones' ACL tear was diagnosed, you weren't paying attention. Even if she hadn't transferred, the best-case scenario was that she would be cleared for basketball activities right about now, and might be ready to play 25 minutes a night by the Syracuse game.

And if she hadn't transferred, who knows whether we get Salvadores or Lambert, both of whom have more upside.

This is the year we grin and bear it. 15-16 and 16-17 are the years when we kill 'em all and let God sort it out.

Why did Alexis transfer? GoDuke!

MCFinARL
12-08-2014, 07:48 AM
Why did Alexis transfer? GoDuke!

Well, she said she was transferring because she was facing a year-long rehab of her injury and would rather be near her Texas home during that time and after. From the Baylor sports website:


"I enjoyed my two years at Duke but I really just wanted to be closer to family," Jones said. "They're really excited about it. They're going to be able to come to a lot more games than they were able to at Duke. I have always admired and respected Coach Mulkey, I really feel a connection with her and I feel she can help me take my game to the next level."

Is it possible that a stronger bond between Jones and Coach P could have changed this outcome? Sure. But unless you have inside info, there is no clear reason to conclude that this transfer is significantly different from any other transfer decision made by a young person who wants to be nearer to family or concludes that one program is a better fit than another--it's not by itself an indictment of the program or coach that has been left.

stillcrazie
12-08-2014, 08:30 AM
This is the year we grin and bear it. 15-16 and 16-17 are the years when we kill 'em all and let God sort it out.

I am trying to be optimistic, but I can remember saying the same thing about last year's team and others. I was hoping the EWill years would bring us a trophy. In any case, go Duke!

Kedsy
12-08-2014, 10:09 AM
I am trying to be optimistic, but I can remember saying the same thing about last year's team and others.

If we hadn't lost two All ACC point guards due to injury (and also the third string PG due to another injury), you might have been right about last year's team. If Chelsea hadn't been injured in 2013, and Elizabeth hadn't been injured in 2012, we might be coming off three straight Final Fours (maybe not, but we certainly had a legitimate shot). And if Elizabeth hadn't been injured the past couple weeks we might have won all three of the past three games (she looked a little rusty last night and after all, we only needed one more basket to win).

I cannot fathom why people don't understand that injuries play a part in these things. Even more, I can't believe how people seem to equate key players getting injured with bad coaching.

stillcrazie
12-08-2014, 10:21 AM
If we hadn't lost two All ACC point guards due to injury (and also the third string PG due to another injury), you might have been right about last year's team. If Chelsea hadn't been injured in 2013, and Elizabeth hadn't been injured in 2012, we might be coming off three straight Final Fours (maybe not, but we certainly had a legitimate shot). And if Elizabeth hadn't been injured the past couple weeks we might have won all three of the past three games (she looked a little rusty last night and after all, we only needed one more basket to win).

I cannot fathom why people don't understand that injuries play a part in these things. Even more, I can't believe how people seem to equate key players getting injured with bad coaching.

No doubt injuries were a decisive factor last year. Few if any women's teams have the depth to compensate for that kind of loss.

BigWayne
12-08-2014, 01:06 PM
There are way too many moments in these women's games that remind me of high school level basketball. I get so used to watching the level of men's D1 hoops that I am always surprised at how many of them occur, especially at the end of games. I don't know how you fix that.

jv001
12-08-2014, 02:14 PM
Well, she said she was transferring because she was facing a year-long rehab of her injury and would rather be near her Texas home during that time and after. From the Baylor sports website:



Is it possible that a stronger bond between Jones and Coach P could have changed this outcome? Sure. But unless you have inside info, there is no clear reason to conclude that this transfer is significantly different from any other transfer decision made by a young person who wants to be nearer to family or concludes that one program is a better fit than another--it's not by itself an indictment of the program or coach that has been left.

Thanks for the information. I certainly don't have any inside info. I didn't even know the reason she gave for leaving. It seems that she and her family are excited about them being able to see her play. GoDuke!

Saratoga2
12-08-2014, 03:27 PM
There are way too many moments in these women's games that remind me of high school level basketball. I get so used to watching the level of men's D1 hoops that I am always surprised at how many of them occur, especially at the end of games. I don't know how you fix that.

There are very few women's teams out there that handle the ball well and play 40 minutes of aggressive defense. I can see that in the UCONN team and maybe others but definitely not Duke. I think they have talented players but they don't seem to ever develop into dominant forces. Poor ball handling and lack of a killer instinct seems to be their hallmark.

burnspbesq
12-08-2014, 04:06 PM
Thanks for the information. I certainly don't have any inside info. I didn't even know the reason she gave for leaving. It seems that she and her family are excited about them being able to see her play. GoDuke!

IIRC, Alexis' dad needs a wheelchair to get around. That really complicates air travel. Less so a two-hour drive from Irving to Waco.

Dukehky
12-08-2014, 08:44 PM
Complain about the coaching all you want, it's not going to change from an employment nor philosophical standpoint. This year the talent level is just way down. Last year was the year if everyone was healthy, but they weren't, so it wasn't. It happens. Over half of practices for the women are dedicated to running the multiple defenses that P likes to use. Oftentimes that is to the detriment of the offense, but again, that isn't going to change. We don't have the talent level to outscore good teams this year, so I think mucking it up and playing tough defense is our best bet to win games.

MCFinARL
12-08-2014, 10:43 PM
Thanks for the information. I certainly don't have any inside info. I didn't even know the reason she gave for leaving. It seems that she and her family are excited about them being able to see her play. GoDuke!

Sorry if I seemed to jump on you--another poster up thread had implied something negative about Alexis's transfer. My tone was probably reacting to that and shouldn't have been aimed at your straightforward question.

AIM4excellence
12-09-2014, 10:40 PM
I am trying to be optimistic, but I can remember saying the same thing about last year's team and others. I was hoping the EWill years would bring us a trophy. In any case, go Duke!

It's the standard (for the last 8 years) battle cry - next year! The 'next years' have come and gone with no post season success to show for it. Seriously, folks the reason we have ZERO point guards is not due to injury. It's due to a PG who was extremely excited to come to Duke, helped bring another top class to Duke and then abruptly left Duke with no public comment. She certainly had to know before coming she wouldn't play much her first year with Chelsea and Alexis here, so that wasn't the disappointment. So we have a bunch of talented bigs who can't get the ball in the paint due to our lack of guards. Who put the team in this situation? Maybe some here don't really expect much and so are not disappointed. Those of us who got used to expecting a FF every year are tired of the excuses that keep coming as fast as the seasons change.

This is not about the S.Carolina game. It's about where this program is and why. Again, those of you who expect less seem pretty happy. Those of us who got used to getting more...not so much.

Kedsy
12-09-2014, 10:45 PM
Those of us who got used to expecting a FF every year are tired of the excuses that keep coming as fast as the seasons change.

Maybe it's really your expectations that are out of whack?

Incidentally, you may have "expect[ed] a FF every year," but Coach Goestenkors only made four Final Fours in 15 years, so I suppose you were disappointed then, too, eh?

burnspbesq
12-09-2014, 11:21 PM
It's the standard (for the last 8 years) battle cry - next year! The 'next years' have come and gone with no post season success to show for it. Seriously, folks the reason we have ZERO point guards is not due to injury. It's due to a PG who was extremely excited to come to Duke, helped bring another top class to Duke and then abruptly left Duke with no public comment. She certainly had to know before coming she wouldn't play much her first year with Chelsea and Alexis here, so that wasn't the disappointment. So we have a bunch of talented bigs who can't get the ball in the paint due to our lack of guards. Who put the team in this situation? Maybe some here don't really expect much and so are not disappointed. Those of us who got used to expecting a FF every year are tired of the excuses that keep coming as fast as the seasons change.

This is not about the S.Carolina game. It's about where this program is and why. Again, those of you who expect less seem pretty happy. Those of us who got used to getting more...not so much.

Seriously, just stop with the ad hominem attacks. This is not that place.

aswewere
12-10-2014, 06:02 AM
Seriously, just stop with the ad hominem attacks. This is not that place.

Where is the place then ? I know a lot of women's fans that are just as disappointed in the coaching.

AIM4excellence
12-10-2014, 08:06 PM
Maybe it's really your expectations that are out of whack?

Incidentally, you may have "expect[ed] a FF every year," but Coach Goestenkors only made four Final Fours in 15 years, so I suppose you were disappointed then, too, eh?

LOL. Coach G led Duke to FOUR FFs in her final EIGHT years at Duke and she didn't start with a bunch of MAC AA's her first season. Nice try. Since at her hiring, "they" said McCallie would take Duke to the next level, those were my expectations also. They forgot to specify that "the next level" wasn't necessarily a higher level.

AIM4excellence
12-10-2014, 08:12 PM
Seriously, just stop with the ad hominem attacks. This is not that place.

Hey, the current lack of PG's on the squad is McCallie's "excuse du jour" for lack of success, including the game being discussed. It's entirely appropriate to discuss why this squad has no PG's.

Duvall
12-10-2014, 08:36 PM
LOL. Coach G led Duke to FOUR FFs in her final EIGHT years at Duke and she didn't start with a bunch of MAC AA's her first season. Nice try. Since at her hiring, "they" said McCallie would take Duke to the next level, those were my expectations also. They forgot to specify that "the next level" wasn't necessarily a higher level.

Who is "they"? If you mean Joe Alleva, he said a lot of stupid things and is now LSU 's problem.

jimmymax
12-10-2014, 09:19 PM
It's a shame Duke lost to SC the other day -- especially letting it slip away on one's home floor. But it was an ugly game and hard to watch. And come on, SC is posing as #1. I don't follow the women as closely as the men but I'd be shocked if they are a final four team. For some time it has been UConn, Stanford, ND, occasionally a Baylor, Maryland or Duke, and then everyone else. Even if you're top 10, the drop off after #1 and #2 is precipitous. That's been Duke's lot in recent years -- it's tough to crack that upper crust. I do miss Coach G and have not completely cottoned to Coach P. I don't like the way Coach G's tenure ended and the rumors that swirled. Coach P seems to be able to recruit but her results are mixed with the talent she's had. This year's team is young and deserves time to grow. I'm willing to be patient. But I don't like how the guys with lots of pitchforks gang up on the posters that are not so endowed with farm implements whenever they post anything slightly negative.

-jk
12-10-2014, 09:46 PM
It's a shame Duke lost to SC the other day -- especially letting it slip away on one's home floor. But it was an ugly game and hard to watch. And come on, SC is posing as #1. I don't follow the women as closely as the men but I'd be shocked if they are a final four team. For some time it has been UConn, Stanford, ND, occasionally a Baylor, Maryland or Duke, and then everyone else. Even if you're top 10, the drop off after #1 and #2 is precipitous. That's been Duke's lot in recent years -- it's tough to crack that upper crust. I do miss Coach G and have not completely cottoned to Coach P. I don't like the way Coach G's tenure ended and the rumors that swirled. Coach P seems to be able to recruit but her results are mixed with the talent she's had. This year's team is young and deserves time to grow. I'm willing to be patient. But I don't like how the guys with lots of pitchforks gang up on the posters that are not so endowed with farm implements whenever they post anything slightly negative.

I will never claim to be a women's basketball maven. But I will ask - if not P, then who? I'm frustrated with the haphazard offense often exhibited these days. But we're caught between the auras of G, K, and Geno - and none of them will be coaching Duke Women's Basketball. So, again, who? There aren't many Hall of Fame coaches looking for jobs out there...

-jk

Kedsy
12-10-2014, 10:06 PM
But I don't like how the guys with lots of pitchforks gang up on the posters that are not so endowed with farm implements whenever they post anything slightly negative.

If that's what you think is going on with regard to WBB, then you haven't been paying close enough attention.

Dukehky
12-10-2014, 10:27 PM
I will never claim to be a women's basketball maven. But I will ask - if not P, then who? I'm frustrated with the haphazard offense often exhibited these days. But we're caught between the auras of G, K, and Geno - and none of them will be coaching Duke Women's Basketball. So, again, who? There aren't many Hall of Fame coaches looking for jobs out there...

-jk

I've said this before as well. P isn't great, but women's basketball doesn't have the coaching depth that other college athletics do. The talent pool is also not as big for players or coaches. The teams that win titles have great coaches, and those coaches aren't going anywhere. Can P win Duke a title? ehhhh, but she is more than capable of getting to a FF.

Let's also not forget that Gail left Duke because she did not like the way the athletic department treated her or the women's program. She wasn't pleased with K's disinterest, if not disdain, for the women's team and their taking up time on the practice court (this happened and is something that I choose to ignore for the most part). The department saying Coach P could take us to the next level... well what else are they supposed to say? Well guys this is a step down, but at least we don't have to pay her as much as Coach G wanted!!! Also P has done way better than G did at Texas...

Just the state of the program. We are a perennial power, just not a national title contender year in year out. I'm not thrilled about it, but all it takes is one good tournament draw and a bunch of 3's to go in and we're not talking like this anymore.

And for those above who have said, excuses, excuses, we want results!!! Duke has lost first team all american caliber players in recent years. You don't beat teams like UCONN, ND, and Stanford without a top five player in the country. We have also gotten absolute crap draws in the tournament the past few years. Not helpful

AIM4excellence
12-11-2014, 08:27 PM
If that's what you think is going on with regard to WBB, then you haven't been paying close enough attention.

Actually it's right on the money!!!!!!!!! Some on here go way beyond incredulity to defend this coach and castigate honest critique.

Injuries are part of the game. There are more at some programs and there's reason to believe there's correlation between some injuries and the strength and conditioning program. For instance emphasizing strength over flexibility. Or endurance running over start/stop quickness.

Regarding the blame of Duke's seed or matchups. That is just so weak. To be the best, you have to beat the best. No excuses. Nobody on this planet except Coach G, me, the coaches and players thought Duke could beat the reigning three-peat champion Tennessee in 1999. You can check my friends who laughed at me when I said Duke could do it. Did Coach G start lamenting we didn't have a chance going up against Tennessee? No! She devised a plan, defined roles and players executed brilliantly. All this whining McCallie does every year when the brackets are announced is so weak.

Now, who could we get if McCallie were no longer the coach? S. Carolina hired Dawn Staley. Boom. There are more at mid-major programs having great success. They weren't even considered when they hired McCallie. Her personal behavior issues weren't vetted. We can do WAY better and one day we will.

Most who comment here are not primarily fans of women's basketball and have not followed what happens around the country in other programs. The great majority of women's bball fans around the country know that Duke's not going anywhere good under McCallie. Add in journalists who are paid to study the sport. Not one ever picks Duke to pull the upset and so far, they've been right 100% of the time.

Dukehky
12-11-2014, 09:14 PM
Actually it's right on the money!!!!!!!!! Some on here go way beyond incredulity to defend this coach and castigate honest critique.

Injuries are part of the game. There are more at some programs and there's reason to believe there's correlation between some injuries and the strength and conditioning program. For instance emphasizing strength over flexibility. Or endurance running over start/stop quickness.

Regarding the blame of Duke's seed or matchups. That is just so weak. To be the best, you have to beat the best. No excuses. Nobody on this planet except Coach G, me, the coaches and players thought Duke could beat the reigning three-peat champion Tennessee in 1999. You can check my friends who laughed at me when I said Duke could do it. Did Coach G start lamenting we didn't have a chance going up against Tennessee? No! She devised a plan, defined roles and players executed brilliantly. All this whining McCallie does every year when the brackets are announced is so weak.

Now, who could we get if McCallie were no longer the coach? S. Carolina hired Dawn Staley. Boom. There are more at mid-major programs having great success. They weren't even considered when they hired McCallie. Her personal behavior issues weren't vetted. We can do WAY better and one day we will.

Most who comment here are not primarily fans of women's basketball and have not followed what happens around the country in other programs. The great majority of women's bball fans around the country know that Duke's not going anywhere good under McCallie. Add in journalists who are paid to study the sport. Not one ever picks Duke to pull the upset and so far, they've been right 100% of the time.

First of all, I was on the practice team for 4 years; 2 with G, 2 with P, and I can guarantee you that the strength and conditioning is NOT an issue. Coach Will runs the strength and conditioning, and he runs the men's program too. So if you can think of any critique you have of Coach Will, take that up with any one who has ever been a part of the Duke basketball community and they will ream you a new you know what.

In terms of tournament match ups. We all just acknowledged that P is no G in terms of X's and O's, and when you mix in those devastating injuries with some not so great draws, it is not a recipe for success.

Be critical all you want, I feel you're justified, but instead of just saying mid-major programs have good coaches all over the country, how about making a suggestion. But those mid major programs don't have great success. Name me the last Cinderella Final Four team in women's basketball history. Go ahead; I'll wait.

uh_no
12-11-2014, 09:33 PM
Name me the last Cinderella Final Four team in women's basketball history. Go ahead; I'll wait.

not that it disproves your point.....but louisville....twice in the last 5 years (also note that "cinderella" means something very different in womens ball IMO. they knocked off griner and baylor 2 years ago...any team knocking off one of the elite teams is effectively considered "cinderella" i think....given the overwhelming success the elite teams have)

Dukehky
12-12-2014, 10:18 AM
not that it disproves your point.....but louisville....twice in the last 5 years (also note that "cinderella" means something very different in womens ball IMO. they knocked off griner and baylor 2 years ago...any team knocking off one of the elite teams is effectively considered "cinderella" i think....given the overwhelming success the elite teams have)

Not a mid-major like the above poster was talking about though.

duke09hms
12-12-2014, 10:25 AM
Has Women's Duke bball had any marquee wins over the elites of women's bball under Coach McCallie? UConn, Baylor, Stanford ...?

Kedsy
12-12-2014, 12:33 PM
Has Women's Duke bball had any marquee wins over the elites of women's bball under Coach McCallie? UConn, Baylor, Stanford ...?

Yes, Coach P beat Stanford and Tennessee in 2009. She hasn't beaten UConn or Notre Dame, though, and only played Baylor once (a 3 point loss in the Elite Eight).

From 2009 to today (including this year's three losses against ranked teams), Duke has:

Gone 0-11 against UConn and Notre Dame;

Gone 5-5 against top 5 opponents who were not UConn or Notre Dame;

Gone 13-9 against top 10 opponents who were not UConn or Notre Dame (including top 5 games above);

Gone 51-18 against top 25 opponents who were not UConn or Notre Dame (including top 5 and top 10 games above).

Six of the 18 losses, plus four of the five Notre Dame losses, came while either Chelsea Gray or Elizabeth Williams were injured.

So, while obviously it would be nice to beat UConn or Notre Dame (and obviously it would have been nice to play Notre Dame at full strength), Coach P has done pretty well against good teams.

Duvall
12-12-2014, 12:35 PM
Not a mid-major like the above poster was talking about though.

I predict that a mid-major will make a lengthy tournament run this season, though.

Duvall
12-12-2014, 12:50 PM
Now, who could we get if McCallie were no longer the coach? S. Carolina hired Dawn Staley. Boom. There are more at mid-major programs having great success. They weren't even considered when they hired McCallie. Her personal behavior issues weren't vetted. We can do WAY better and one day we will.

Well, maybe. I just don't think Duke is wired to remove a coach in any sport that regularly takes his or her team to postseason play, absent some kind of a scandal. That's one of the many reasons that dealing with Duke fans in the post-Krzyzewski era will be ever so much fun.

AIM4excellence
12-12-2014, 12:55 PM
Not a mid-major like the above poster was talking about though.

Off the top of my head - Dawn Staley was at Temple when she got snatched up by S.Carolina. While Dawn wasn't able to take Temple further in the post season, S.Carolina saw her potential to take their team late into the post-season. And she's gotten them the best results they've had in a long time, and their first mid-season #1 ranking. I'll post other names when I have more time.

Duvall
12-12-2014, 12:58 PM
Off the top of my head - Dawn Staley was at Temple when she got snatched up by S.Carolina. While Dawn wasn't able to take Temple further in the post season, S.Carolina saw her potential to take their team late into the post-season. And she's gotten them the best results they've had in a long time, and their first mid-season #1 ranking. I'll post other names when I have more time.

Okay, but...McCallie *actually had* taken a team further in the postseason when she was hired at Duke.

Henderson
12-12-2014, 01:30 PM
Okay, but...McCallie *actually had* taken a team further in the postseason when she was hired at Duke.

Coach P is in her 8th season at Duke and has a better winning percentage, both at Duke and overall, than Coach K. K didn't win a natty until his 11th season at Duke. Three time ACC COY. Notable injuries to her squads. I counsel slack. Coach K is a big fan of Coach P, and so am I.

killerleft
12-12-2014, 02:03 PM
Some folks rally around the team when the going gets tough. Some use that time to further undermine a coach they've spent years sniping at because she wasn't Coach G.

And so it goes.

dudog84
12-12-2014, 04:38 PM
Pre- post-script: I apologize in advance for the long submission.

I’ve never commented on this board before, but I have to respond to the nonsensical ravings of a lunatic mind(s)…cue Froederick Frankenstein. As a science graduate of Duke, I like these pesky things called facts and the reasonable conclusions that can be drawn from them. I have never met anyone in the women’s program so I don’t have an agenda, other than being a Duke fan.

I can only assume that certain people have an agenda. A crush on Coach G, a personal dislike of Coach P? Maybe a bad interaction with her? I really liked G, and was sorry to lose her. But I really like P also. Certainly a different personality. I like that she’s feisty. Her press conferences usually aren’t your typical coach-speak.

It seems to be only a few people, but they claim to speak for “a lot” of Duke women’s basketball fans. I can only hope they’ve got an inflated sense of importance.
It seems to me the women’s game can be much more influenced than the men’s by an extraordinary individual talent. Think of the names that have been national champions in the past dozen years. Diana Taurasi, Candice Parker, Maya Moore, Brittany Griner, Breanna Stewart. A special recruit that only comes along every 2 or 3 years. Notice that Uconn seems to get a lot of those.

I think we’ve maybe had 2 such recruits before this year. Alana Beard and possibly Chelsea Gray. Alana never missed a game her sophomore, junior, or senior years. Chelsea was unbelievably dynamic, but getting hurt in the middle of her junior and senior years, we never got to see everything. Even then she was the #4 recruit in her class, possibly not the level of the women in the above paragraph (I don’t think Alana was a top 5 recruit). Elizabeth was #1 in her class, but I don’t think she’s been 100% the past 2 years. She looked great early this year before being injured, but she’s not a Breanna Stewart. I wouldn’t trade Elizabeth though, what a phenomenal student and person.

I think Becca Greenwell has the potential to be this type of player. Azura Stevens is a fascinating prospect. And I’m really looking forward to Angela Salvadores, the Spaniard who destroyed the USA U-17 team. The future is bright, but no guarantees. Per ESPN, Becca was #6, Azura #23, Angela #5.

So let’s look at results.

G certainly built the program, I believe awakened a sleeping giant. Since women pros don’t make much (and think of salaries in the 90s), Duke had a niche to fill with the only real competition being Stanford and Notre Dame.

G made 4 Final Fours. The ’99 team was a master-stroke, beating Tennessee to get there. Of course you need some luck also. With Alana, she only made 2. Was that a failure? Alana’s senior team included Iciss Tillis, Monique Currie, and Lindsey Harding and didn’t make it to the Final Four.

P certainly inherited a better situation. But “a bunch of MAC AA’s”? Look, I love all our players, but Wanisha Smith, Joy Cheek, Abby Waner, Chante Black, Carrem Gay, Jasmine Thomas, and Krystal Thomas are not making anyone shake in their boots. Harding and Alison Bales had just graduated. There’s always a transition of style and personality with a new coach.

P’s first few recruiting classes weren’t great, but compare them to Coach K’s. Then both had the splash class…K with Dawkins, etc... and P with Chelsea Gray #4, Richa Jackson #6, Haley Peters (high teens), Tricia Liston (30s), and Chloe Wells (can’t remember). Those rankings are to the best of my memory.
P has continued phenomenal recruiting. Even with the bemoaned loss of assistants (in previous threads) that was supposed to devastate recruiting.

So let’s go to P’s results.

08 – First year, new team, Sweet Sixteen, pretty good I guess.

09 – In what I consider the most egregious scheduling screw-over of all time, #1 seed Duke gets to play Michigan State in East Lansing. P had just left MSU less than 2 years before. BTW, P took MSU to a Final Four so I think she can coach.

10 – Duke loses in the Elite Eight 51-48 to a Baylor team playing a kid named Brittany Griner.

11 – Chelsea & Co.’s first year. We lose in the Elite Eight to #1 seed Uconn featuring a kid named Maya Moore.

12 – Elizabeth Williams joins the team. I believe Richa Jackson was hurt (knee) in February. This is a 15-1 ACC team, and we get to go to Fresno to face #1 seed Stanford. They’re fielding a couple of sisters named Ogwumike. 81-69 loss in Elite Eight.

13 – This one hurts. The splash class are juniors, but Richa doesn’t seem quite the same and Chelsea gets hurt in February. Still, this is a 17-1 ACC team as freshman PG Alexis Jones fills in admirably. We lose to #1 seed Notre Dame in the Elite Eight. Oh, they’ve got a kid named Skylar Diggins playing for them, you might have heard of her too. And a Kayla McBride and a Jewell Loyd.

14 – If 13 hurt, this was a real punch in the gut (or lower). The splash class are seniors, Elizabeth is a junior, Alexis a tested sophomore. Down goes Chelsea, down goes Alexis. Chloe Wells isn’t even available. I can’t say any more.

This year – Our upperclasswomen consist of Sr. Elizabeth Williams, Sr. Ka’lia Johnson, Sr. Amber Henson (a top ten recruit with so many injury problems that she started the year as a redshirt sophomore), and walk-on Sr. Jenna Frush. No Juniors. So right before we go to #7 Texas A&M (we were ranked #8 BTW), Elizabeth gets hurt. And we lose by 4. Three days later we go to #12 Nebraska and lose by 6. Elizabeth comes back, clearly not 100%, and we lose to #1 South Carolina by 1. We started 3 freshmen, a junior college transfer, and a hobbled senior in this game on what unfortunately turned out to be a fairly neutral court.

OMG, fire the coach!!! Are you friggin’ kidding me???

Do you think G makes the 02 or 03 Final Four if Alana goes down? If you do, you need to pull your head out of…uh…the sand. Or her top player from the other Final Fours. Uconn may be the only program that could lose their top player and still make the Final Four. And Geno ain’t coming to Durham.

Someone posted that South Carolina is a poser at #1. According to dwhoops.com (a great site, I suggest everyone check it out), SC returned everyone of significance from last year’s team. That team was ranked as high as #4 last year. And added the #1 and #7 recruits (and #1 class).

So let’s look at transfers, another big complaint. I hated losing Alexis. But her Dad is in a wheelchair. C’mon people. I’m not sure she would have played this year anyway, considering Chelsea’s 2 knee injuries , Richa’s knee injury and Becca’s 2 (3?) knee injuries in high school. I think it’s best to err on the safe side with these ladies’ knees. If you're gonna sit out a year, might as well do it at home.

I’m assuming the PG that transferred that someone is missing is Kianna Holland. As I remember, she was the #32 ranked recruit in that class. Probably not a game changer. And I think I read that she just hurt her knee and is out for the season. Probably just a one-year delay from the incompetence of our conditioning coach (another slur often hurled at our coaches and staff). I do feel for Kianna, she seemed like a good kid and I hope she recovers well.

The only other recent transfer I can think of is Sierra Moore. She’s getting 12.8 points and 4.6 rebounds for a 2-7 Penn State team.

Has anyone left and become a star on another team? From what I see of P, I imagine she can be tough. You think Coach K is a pansy?
Also, this week Geno lost his 2014 #17 recruit, and Nebraska lost their top 2014 recruit. Transfers happen. They’re 18-year-old kids.

Okay, so who's next? Let’s ride P out of town on a rail. Geno’s the best, right? He didn’t make a Final Four until his 10th year. He ain’t coming. Neither are Muffet McGraw (Notre Dame, 10 years to Final Four) or Tara VanDerveer (Stanford, 5 years…but maybe the 80s were a little different competition-wise). Someone wants Dawn Staley. Yeah, she’s got the #1 team (or is it a poser) and has the #1 recruiting class…but did you see her 2015 class? It consists of the #76 point guard (not recruit) in the country. Yeah, BOOM! Let’s see how she lasts. And I’m not sure South Carolina has the academic requirements Duke has.

Player development? Did anyone see Tricia Liston becoming an All-American? I think she was a mid 30s recruit. A lot of that is on her, but maybe she had some coaching.

Bad losses? Give me a break. Certainly nothing on the order of the men’s team. Was there a single player on Lehigh that was recruited by Duke? And they beat us in Greensboro? Don’t get me started on Mercer. They beat us in Raleigh? When we have the #2 and #23 players taken in the NBA Draft? Better make room for Coach K on that train you’re running P out on. It took him 6 years to get to the Final Four, and 11 for a championship.

I can only hope AD Kevin White doesn’t listen to “a lot of women’s fans”.

Finally, our women represent their team and our University well. They appear to be excellent students and people. You could have that light blue coach with light blue players that don’t go to class. Our women, and the coach they chose and clearly play hard for, deserve better support than to be out-cheered by the opposition’s fans in Cameron (South Carolina, anyone?). I’m in Florida, but I hope to get up for some games (mens also, and football and soccer) in the next couple of years. We’ve got another great recruiting class coming in next year with two top 10 recruits. You’ve got a great program there, be careful what you wish for.

Henderson
12-12-2014, 05:48 PM
Welcome! Hope you choose to post often.

A journalist friend of mine once critiqued a piece my writing by saying, "If you're going to bury the lead, put it in a shallow grave so the dogs at least have a sporting chance."

uh_no
12-12-2014, 06:06 PM
It seems to me the women’s game can be much more influenced than the men’s by an extraordinary individual talent. Think of the names that have been national champions in the past dozen years. Diana Taurasi, Candice Parker, Maya Moore, Brittany Griner, Breanna Stewart. A special recruit that only comes along every 2 or 3 years. Notice that Uconn seems to get a lot of those.
But why don't we talk about:
skyler diggins?
elena della donne?

yes, great players make championships.....but there's also the reverse, where championships make great players....no one is arguing that skyler diggins isn't a great player, for instance....but you don't hear about her because she never won. E-Will was hailed as one of the players to bring duke a championship....but she will likely never make your list of great players simply because she never did....despite having a fantastic career....personally I don't think P puts her in a position to succeed offensively....and I don't pretend to speak for the majority of fans....but that comes from watching HOW ND, Uconn, Stanford and the like play.....I think E-will could very well have been among your great playeres list, a-la tina charles for instance, had she played at uconn.



Oh, they’ve got a kid named Skylar Diggins playing for them, you might have heard of her too. And a Kayla McBride and a Jewell Loyd.
Again, the big question....if E will was playing for ND, and skylar for us....would we be saying "oh, they've got a kid named E-Will? Hard to say empiracally, but we all can have our opinions.



Someone posted that South Carolina is a poser at #1. According to dwhoops.com (a great site, I suggest everyone check it out), SC returned everyone of significance from last year’s team. That team was ranked as high as #4 last year. And added the #1 and #7 recruits (and #1 class).

their best win is a 1 point win over duke....and i would bet more than even money that uconn beats them by double digits in february....but hey...then again people here often claimed duke was better than uconn when duke would come in undefeated with a gaudy record before they lost by 30....women's basketball is 100% about how you play against the top couple teams. SC hasn't played any yet. SC may yet be a final 4 team, but I don't for a second believe they are #1.



Has anyone left and become a star on another team? From what I see of P, I imagine she can be tough. You think Coach K is a pansy?
Also, this week Geno lost his 2014 #17 recruit, and Nebraska lost their top 2014 recruit. Transfers happen. They’re 18-year-old kids.
Agree...criticizing the program for the transfers is dumb.


Geno’s the best, right? He didn’t make a Final Four until his 10th year. He ain’t coming. Neither are Muffet McGraw (Notre Dame, 10 years to Final Four) or Tara VanDerveer (Stanford, 5 years…but maybe the 80s were a little different competition-wise). and they built their programs from scratch....something P has not had to do at duke.



Bad losses? Give me a break. Certainly nothing on the order of the men’s team. any comparison of losses between the men's game is disingenuous...or misleading at best.



Do I think P is an excellent coach? No. I strongly disagree with her "defense at the cost of offense" philosophy....but I also disagree with some of the stuff every coach does. For instance, I don't think Geno does a great job at preparing his kids to make smart decisions as the clock is winding down in close games....see: all their close losses to ND 2 years ago...and their loss to stanford this year.

Do I think P should be fired? No. she's kept the program at about the same level for almost a decade....she's clearly not Tara Van derveer [sp?] or Muffet McGraw....but she's also not Matt Doherty.

Do I think anything that happens this year can be used as evidence to pile on P? No!!!! jeez...i've been harsh over the years on P, but she lost 4 starters....heck...after Taurasi graduated from uconn, they only made the sweet 16....I wouldn't call for geno's firing then, I won't call for P's now.

I don't particularly like P, and that's my opinion on her style rather than results. I think it was excellent that she was able to bring duke within 1 of SC last week, and I hope that they can put together a good year.

dudog84
12-12-2014, 08:17 PM
uh_no, thanks for the detailed response.

You say E-Will never won a championship...you're a little early on that, don't you think?

Would you agree that as a true post, more than any other positions she needs someone to get her the ball? My point, and the main point (but probably lost) of my lengthy post, was that the loss of Chelsea was huge. Huge. We've been especially snake-bitten by injury. May sound like an excuse, but it's true.

P did build a program from scratch at Michigan State.

I guess I think P is better than most do. Give her a chance with a healthy team. I think this year is going to be interesting.

dudog84
12-12-2014, 08:18 PM
That smiley face was supposed to be after "...don't you think?" Sorry, I'm new.

AIM4excellence
12-12-2014, 10:50 PM
Your statement that you "have no agenda" is just not true. You've got the McCallie spin machine output down to a "T." Hook. Line. Sinker.

Have you even read anything from a journalist dedicated to this sport? Or a commentator as Duke is being plastered again on National TV? The statement that Duke is "offense challenged" can be its' own drinking game. But, ok, target me if you must. I just happen to agree with every journalist of the sport, while you spout every excuse from the McCallie playbook. But you don't have an agenda. Right. Please be happy with the current standard of making zero final fours. But don't expect those of us who got used to more to be happy with this. This program has taken a giant step backwards. 100% of journalists dedicated to this sport know this. It's the subtext in everything they write. Were you even watching while the commentators searched for something "nice" to say during Duke's 1-19 offensive desert?


Pre- post-script: I apologize in advance for the long submission.

I’ve never commented on this board before, but I have to respond to the nonsensical ravings of a lunatic mind(s)…cue Froederick Frankenstein. As a science graduate of Duke, I like these pesky things called facts and the reasonable conclusions that can be drawn from them. I have never met anyone in the women’s program so I don’t have an agenda, other than being a Duke fan.

I can only assume that certain people have an agenda. A crush on Coach G, a personal dislike of Coach P? Maybe a bad interaction with her? I really liked G, and was sorry to lose her. But I really like P also. Certainly a different personality. I like that she’s feisty. Her press conferences usually aren’t your typical coach-speak.

It seems to be only a few people, but they claim to speak for “a lot” of Duke women’s basketball fans. I can only hope they’ve got an inflated sense of importance.
It seems to me the women’s game can be much more influenced than the men’s by an extraordinary individual talent. Think of the names that have been national champions in the past dozen years. Diana Taurasi, Candice Parker, Maya Moore, Brittany Griner, Breanna Stewart. A special recruit that only comes along every 2 or 3 years. Notice that Uconn seems to get a lot of those.

I think we’ve maybe had 2 such recruits before this year. Alana Beard and possibly Chelsea Gray. Alana never missed a game her sophomore, junior, or senior years. Chelsea was unbelievably dynamic, but getting hurt in the middle of her junior and senior years, we never got to see everything. Even then she was the #4 recruit in her class, possibly not the level of the women in the above paragraph (I don’t think Alana was a top 5 recruit). Elizabeth was #1 in her class, but I don’t think she’s been 100% the past 2 years. She looked great early this year before being injured, but she’s not a Breanna Stewart. I wouldn’t trade Elizabeth though, what a phenomenal student and person.

I think Becca Greenwell has the potential to be this type of player. Azura Stevens is a fascinating prospect. And I’m really looking forward to Angela Salvadores, the Spaniard who destroyed the USA U-17 team. The future is bright, but no guarantees. Per ESPN, Becca was #6, Azura #23, Angela #5.

So let’s look at results.

G certainly built the program, I believe awakened a sleeping giant. Since women pros don’t make much (and think of salaries in the 90s), Duke had a niche to fill with the only real competition being Stanford and Notre Dame.

G made 4 Final Fours. The ’99 team was a master-stroke, beating Tennessee to get there. Of course you need some luck also. With Alana, she only made 2. Was that a failure? Alana’s senior team included Iciss Tillis, Monique Currie, and Lindsey Harding and didn’t make it to the Final Four.

P certainly inherited a better situation. But “a bunch of MAC AA’s”? Look, I love all our players, but Wanisha Smith, Joy Cheek, Abby Waner, Chante Black, Carrem Gay, Jasmine Thomas, and Krystal Thomas are not making anyone shake in their boots. Harding and Alison Bales had just graduated. There’s always a transition of style and personality with a new coach.

P’s first few recruiting classes weren’t great, but compare them to Coach K’s. Then both had the splash class…K with Dawkins, etc... and P with Chelsea Gray #4, Richa Jackson #6, Haley Peters (high teens), Tricia Liston (30s), and Chloe Wells (can’t remember). Those rankings are to the best of my memory.
P has continued phenomenal recruiting. Even with the bemoaned loss of assistants (in previous threads) that was supposed to devastate recruiting.

So let’s go to P’s results.

08 – First year, new team, Sweet Sixteen, pretty good I guess.

09 – In what I consider the most egregious scheduling screw-over of all time, #1 seed Duke gets to play Michigan State in East Lansing. P had just left MSU less than 2 years before. BTW, P took MSU to a Final Four so I think she can coach.

10 – Duke loses in the Elite Eight 51-48 to a Baylor team playing a kid named Brittany Griner.

11 – Chelsea & Co.’s first year. We lose in the Elite Eight to #1 seed Uconn featuring a kid named Maya Moore.

12 – Elizabeth Williams joins the team. I believe Richa Jackson was hurt (knee) in February. This is a 15-1 ACC team, and we get to go to Fresno to face #1 seed Stanford. They’re fielding a couple of sisters named Ogwumike. 81-69 loss in Elite Eight.

13 – This one hurts. The splash class are juniors, but Richa doesn’t seem quite the same and Chelsea gets hurt in February. Still, this is a 17-1 ACC team as freshman PG Alexis Jones fills in admirably. We lose to #1 seed Notre Dame in the Elite Eight. Oh, they’ve got a kid named Skylar Diggins playing for them, you might have heard of her too. And a Kayla McBride and a Jewell Loyd.

14 – If 13 hurt, this was a real punch in the gut (or lower). The splash class are seniors, Elizabeth is a junior, Alexis a tested sophomore. Down goes Chelsea, down goes Alexis. Chloe Wells isn’t even available. I can’t say any more.

This year – Our upperclasswomen consist of Sr. Elizabeth Williams, Sr. Ka’lia Johnson, Sr. Amber Henson (a top ten recruit with so many injury problems that she started the year as a redshirt sophomore), and walk-on Sr. Jenna Frush. No Juniors. So right before we go to #7 Texas A&M (we were ranked #8 BTW), Elizabeth gets hurt. And we lose by 4. Three days later we go to #12 Nebraska and lose by 6. Elizabeth comes back, clearly not 100%, and we lose to #1 South Carolina by 1. We started 3 freshmen, a junior college transfer, and a hobbled senior in this game on what unfortunately turned out to be a fairly neutral court.

OMG, fire the coach!!! Are you friggin’ kidding me???

Do you think G makes the 02 or 03 Final Four if Alana goes down? If you do, you need to pull your head out of…uh…the sand. Or her top player from the other Final Fours. Uconn may be the only program that could lose their top player and still make the Final Four. And Geno ain’t coming to Durham.

Someone posted that South Carolina is a poser at #1. According to dwhoops.com (a great site, I suggest everyone check it out), SC returned everyone of significance from last year’s team. That team was ranked as high as #4 last year. And added the #1 and #7 recruits (and #1 class).

So let’s look at transfers, another big complaint. I hated losing Alexis. But her Dad is in a wheelchair. C’mon people. I’m not sure she would have played this year anyway, considering Chelsea’s 2 knee injuries , Richa’s knee injury and Becca’s 2 (3?) knee injuries in high school. I think it’s best to err on the safe side with these ladies’ knees. If you're gonna sit out a year, might as well do it at home.

I’m assuming the PG that transferred that someone is missing is Kianna Holland. As I remember, she was the #32 ranked recruit in that class. Probably not a game changer. And I think I read that she just hurt her knee and is out for the season. Probably just a one-year delay from the incompetence of our conditioning coach (another slur often hurled at our coaches and staff). I do feel for Kianna, she seemed like a good kid and I hope she recovers well.

The only other recent transfer I can think of is Sierra Moore. She’s getting 12.8 points and 4.6 rebounds for a 2-7 Penn State team.

Has anyone left and become a star on another team? From what I see of P, I imagine she can be tough. You think Coach K is a pansy?
Also, this week Geno lost his 2014 #17 recruit, and Nebraska lost their top 2014 recruit. Transfers happen. They’re 18-year-old kids.

Okay, so who's next? Let’s ride P out of town on a rail. Geno’s the best, right? He didn’t make a Final Four until his 10th year. He ain’t coming. Neither are Muffet McGraw (Notre Dame, 10 years to Final Four) or Tara VanDerveer (Stanford, 5 years…but maybe the 80s were a little different competition-wise). Someone wants Dawn Staley. Yeah, she’s got the #1 team (or is it a poser) and has the #1 recruiting class…but did you see her 2015 class? It consists of the #76 point guard (not recruit) in the country. Yeah, BOOM! Let’s see how she lasts. And I’m not sure South Carolina has the academic requirements Duke has.

Player development? Did anyone see Tricia Liston becoming an All-American? I think she was a mid 30s recruit. A lot of that is on her, but maybe she had some coaching.

Bad losses? Give me a break. Certainly nothing on the order of the men’s team. Was there a single player on Lehigh that was recruited by Duke? And they beat us in Greensboro? Don’t get me started on Mercer. They beat us in Raleigh? When we have the #2 and #23 players taken in the NBA Draft? Better make room for Coach K on that train you’re running P out on. It took him 6 years to get to the Final Four, and 11 for a championship.

I can only hope AD Kevin White doesn’t listen to “a lot of women’s fans”.

Finally, our women represent their team and our University well. They appear to be excellent students and people. You could have that light blue coach with light blue players that don’t go to class. Our women, and the coach they chose and clearly play hard for, deserve better support than to be out-cheered by the opposition’s fans in Cameron (South Carolina, anyone?). I’m in Florida, but I hope to get up for some games (mens also, and football and soccer) in the next couple of years. We’ve got another great recruiting class coming in next year with two top 10 recruits. You’ve got a great program there, be careful what you wish for.

sagegrouse
12-12-2014, 10:52 PM
Have you even read anything from a journalist dedicated to this sport? Or a commentator as Duke is being plastered again on National TV? The statement that Duke is "offense challenged" can be its' own drinking game. But, ok, target me if you must. I just happen to agree with every journalist of the sport, while you spout every excuse from the McCallie playbook.

This is uncalled for unworthy of you and this Board.

duke09hms
12-12-2014, 11:35 PM
Your statement that you "have no agenda" is just not true. You've got the McCallie spin machine output down to a "T." Hook. Line. Sinker.

Have you even read anything from a journalist dedicated to this sport? Or a commentator as Duke is being plastered again on National TV? The statement that Duke is "offense challenged" can be its' own drinking game. But, ok, target me if you must. I just happen to agree with every journalist of the sport, while you spout every excuse from the McCallie playbook. But you don't have an agenda. Right. Please be happy with the current standard of making zero final fours. But don't expect those of us who got used to more to be happy with this. This program has taken a giant step backwards. 100% of journalists dedicated to this sport know this. It's the subtext in everything they write. Were you even watching while the commentators searched for something "nice" to say during Duke's 1-19 offensive desert?

I'm also unhappy with the Final Four drought and have noticed this team struggle severely on the offensive side. Do you have any sources to these women's bball journalists? Would be interested to hear the opinions of IMPARTIAL observers.

nocilla
12-13-2014, 07:03 AM
Coach P's style of play is different and I think that makes some people dislike her. Given our recent injury woes, I personally think she has done as good as can be expected.

uh_no
12-13-2014, 10:49 AM
uh_no, thanks for the detailed response.

You say E-Will never won a championship...you're a little early on that, don't you think?

Would you agree that as a true post, more than any other positions she needs someone to get her the ball? My point, and the main point (but probably lost) of my lengthy post, was that the loss of Chelsea was huge. Huge. We've been especially snake-bitten by injury. May sound like an excuse, but it's true.

P did build a program from scratch at Michigan State.

I guess I think P is better than most do. Give her a chance with a healthy team. I think this year is going to be interesting.

I would be shocked if Duke won a championship this year....mainly because I don't think anyone will beat connecticut for the rest of the year....stanford beat them, yes, and they came out with a phenomenal game plan, playing against a team that lost one of the lynchpins of their offense (dolson), the shooters couldn't hit a shot, and the game was STILL tied at the end of regulation. That said, I don't think there are any other teams that are far and away better than everyone....ND and Stanford each lost key players to graduation....so there's a lot of void there. a final 4 trip is certainly possible.

I agree that she needs someone to get her the ball, and I don't think P's offense has succeeded in that, regardless of personnel.....when the prescription is "shoot the ball, let e-will get the rebound and score," you're bound to fail....especially when you run into teams that also rebound.....

I think my point is that it's a tough argument that duke doesn't have star players and that's why they don't win, when they have players that I think could be stars elsewhere. It was also mentioned that many of the "star" players come from uconn. I think more than anything, Geno puts his teams in positions to win in march...In my opinion, if Griner was with geno, she certainly would have more than 1 ring....and skyler diggins sure as heck wouldn't have gone 4 years without one. (this is demonstrated by evidence too, as uconn has only had 2 classes in the last 20 years to not win a championship: 1999 and 2008)...great teams make great players as much as great players make great teams.

I think it was unfortunate that there were injuries last year, as I thought the team had an excellent shot to content....even after the Uconn game, I gave the team props for how they played.....P is a great recruiter, no doubt....but as I said, I simply don't agree with her overall philosophy of play...and when it doesn't work out for her, I'm going to criticize it.....it's simply not fair this year given the loss of personnel

jv001
12-13-2014, 11:03 AM
I would be shocked if Duke won a championship this year....mainly because I don't think anyone will beat connecticut for the rest of the year....stanford beat them, yes, and they came out with a phenomenal game plan, playing against a team that lost one of the lynchpins of their offense (dolson), the shooters couldn't hit a shot, and the game was STILL tied at the end of regulation. That said, I don't think there are any other teams that are far and away better than everyone....ND and Stanford each lost key players to graduation....so there's a lot of void there. a final 4 trip is certainly possible.I agree that she needs someone to get her the ball, and I don't think P's offense has succeeded in that, regardless of personnel.....when the prescription is "shoot the ball, let e-will get the rebound and score," you're bound to fail....especially when you run into teams that also rebound.....
I think my point is that it's a tough argument that duke doesn't have star players and that's why they don't win, when they have players that I think could be stars elsewhere. It was also mentioned that many of the "star" players come from uconn. I think more than anything, Geno puts his teams in positions to win in march...In my opinion, if Griner was with geno, she certainly would have more than 1 ring....and skyler diggins sure as heck wouldn't have gone 4 years without one. (this is demonstrated by evidence too, as uconn has only had 2 classes in the last 20 years to not win a championship: 1999 and 2008)...great teams make great players as much as great players make great teams.

I think it was unfortunate that there were injuries last year, as I thought the team had an excellent shot to content....even after the Uconn game, I gave the team props for how they played.....P is a great recruiter, no doubt....but as I said, I simply don't agree with her overall philosophy of play...and when it doesn't work out for her, I'm going to criticize it.....it's simply not fair this year given the loss of personnel

I agree with your entire post and especially the bolded parts. There are a few top tier coaches in the women's game and then there are seve coaches in the women's game. Geno is in the top tier of coaches. He's to the ladies game as Coach K is to the men's game. They are both great recruiters and great on the court coaches as well. I don't think Coach P has reached that level yet and she may never achieve that level. I also agree that her coaching or lack of, is not the reason Duke has lost games this season. Injuries have really set this team back. GoDuke!

dudog84
12-13-2014, 11:10 AM
Your statement that you "have no agenda" is just not true. You've got the McCallie spin machine output down to a "T." Hook. Line. Sinker.

Have you even read anything from a journalist dedicated to this sport? Or a commentator as Duke is being plastered again on National TV? The statement that Duke is "offense challenged" can be its' own drinking game. But, ok, target me if you must. I just happen to agree with every journalist of the sport, while you spout every excuse from the McCallie playbook. But you don't have an agenda. Right. Please be happy with the current standard of making zero final fours. But don't expect those of us who got used to more to be happy with this. This program has taken a giant step backwards. 100% of journalists dedicated to this sport know this. It's the subtext in everything they write. Were you even watching while the commentators searched for something "nice" to say during Duke's 1-19 offensive desert?

And yet you do not even attempt to refute any of my individual statements.

No kidding! This was the first clue in today's crossword: "The fewer the facts, the stronger the opinion" Arnold H. Glasow

You're right, I do have an agenda. To bring some facts and reasonableness to the discussion. If you cannot acknowledge that having injury issues with every single one of our top 10 recruits (Elizabeth, Chelsea, Alexis, Richa, and Amber) in the last 3+ years has had a significant affect on our team, we can't have a reasonable discussion.

Do you even read what you write before you post? "plastered again" - We lose on the road to #7 by 4, on the road to #12 by 6, both without our best player, and then by 1 to #1 with that player at maybe 80%. Please. Plastered? "every journalist", "spout every excuse", "giant step backwards", "100% of journalists", "subtext of everything they write". Hyperbole much? Maybe some journalists have an agenda. Or aren't well-informed.

And yes, I do cringe every time we miss a layup. Unfortunately, I've cringed a lot. What does that have to do with the offensive scheme? The lady got to the rim.

Finally, we were averaging almost 86 points per game this year before Elizabeth went down. Before anyone jumps on that, I know it wasn't against the greatest competition. But last season the women averaged 80.0 points per game over 35 games. 18 of those games were without Chelsea. 7 were without Alexis.

Guess what the men averaged...78.4 points per game.

Pesky, pesky facts.

dudog84
12-13-2014, 11:23 AM
uh_no, I agree with your post. I just wanted to point out that Elizabeth has a little time left. Upsets happen, though not as frequently in the women's game.

Geno is the best. UConn is daunting. But do they become more vulnerable if Breanna Stewart gets hurt? (in no way do I want that to happen)

duke09hms
12-13-2014, 11:24 AM
Finally, we were averaging almost 86 points per game this year before Elizabeth went down. Before anyone jumps on that, I know it wasn't against the greatest competition. But last season the women averaged 80.0 points per game over 35 games. 18 of those games were without Chelsea. 7 were without Alexis.

Guess what the men averaged...78.4 points per game.



Agree with most of your points. McCallie is a very good coach but seems to have trouble coaching offense. Not unlike her former MSU colleague Tom Izzo. Whether or not she becomes a great coach hinges on that.

However, you just can't compare the women's game to the men's game.

aswewere
12-13-2014, 12:52 PM
Some folks rally around the team when the going gets tough. Some use that time to further undermine a coach they've spent years sniping at because she wasn't Coach G.

And so it goes.

You are much better than the coach G cop pot. You have to look no further than Liston's career one
of the best shooters ever with no plays that were run to get her open against good defense.

Kedsy
12-13-2014, 01:26 PM
You are much better than the coach G cop pot. You have to look no further than Liston's career one
of the best shooters ever with no plays that were run to get her open against good defense.

Are you joking? Tricia Liston is one of the strongest arguments for Coach P's player development skills. She came in as a middling recruit (#33 according to HoopGirlz), scored 5.5 ppg her freshman year as mostly a spot up shooter, and left Duke with an all-around game, as a first-team All ACC and a first round WNBA draft pick (#12 pick), after scoring 17+ ppg.

Whatever Coach P did with Tricia, she did it really well.

Kedsy
12-13-2014, 02:05 PM
You have to look no further than Liston's career one of the best shooters ever with no plays that were run to get her open against good defense.

Also, last season Tricia led Duke in shot attempts (and in shot attempts per game). Until the injuries hit, she was sharing the floor with three other first- or second-team All ACC players plus a member of the previous season's All ACC freshman team. But despite all the talent around her, she still led the team in shots attempted, and converted at an incredibly high efficiency (which suggests the shots she took were good shots). And after the injuries, she was one of our two primary ballhandlers, which changes the "getting her open" dynamic significantly.

So are you suggesting Coach P's mistake was not getting Tricia all the shots?

aswewere
12-13-2014, 02:36 PM
Are you joking? Tricia Liston is one of the strongest arguments for Coach P's player development skills. She came in as a middling recruit (#33 according to HoopGirlz), scored 5.5 ppg her freshman year as mostly a spot up shooter, and left Duke with an all-around game, as a first-team All ACC and a first round WNBA draft pick (#12 pick), after scoring 17+ ppg.

Whatever Coach P did with Tricia, she did it really well.

I was at this game none of her 3 pt. shot attempts was what you would consider open. Do you
remember what UConn was able to do to Gray when no picks were set to get her driving lanes or shot?

Box for you http://scores.espn.go.com/ncw/boxscore?gameId=400548775

Kedsy
12-13-2014, 02:57 PM
I was at this game none of her 3 pt. shot attempts was what you would consider open. Do you remember what UConn was able to do to Gray when no picks were set to get her driving lanes or shot?

Box for you http://scores.espn.go.com/ncw/boxscore?gameId=400548775

I saw the game on TV. It looked to me like DePaul's defense was geared almost entirely to keeping Tricia from getting good 3-point looks.

Any good team can take away any one player's shot opportunities in any one game. It happens fairly frequently. That's a far cry from "look no further than Liston's career" to illustrate Coach P's supposed deficiencies. Especially since Tricia Liston's career can reasonably be considered Exhibit A for Coach P doing a really good job.

I'm not sure which UConn game you mean, but last year against UConn, Chelsea Gray shot 54% and was our leading scorer, so again, I'm not sure how strong your point is here.

aswewere
12-13-2014, 03:20 PM
Not sure if anything can change with Al Brown doing the tape break down and game preps.

Kedsy
12-13-2014, 04:06 PM
Not sure if anything can change with Al Brown doing the tape break down and game preps.

Not sure what you mean by this. Could you please explain/expand?

dudog84
12-13-2014, 04:37 PM
Not sure if anything can change with Al Brown doing the tape break down and game preps.

This is Becca's blog on Coach Brown:

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=209694734&SPID=1846&SPSID=22760

But what does she know?

Serenity now!

jv001
12-13-2014, 05:20 PM
This is Becca's blog on Coach Brown:

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=209694734&SPID=1846&SPSID=22760

But what does she know?

Serenity now!

Quite a difference in work outs from Coach Brown. Becca says he's in charge of strength and conditioning this season. I'm anxious to see how this pans out for this particular squad. GoDuke!

aswewere
12-13-2014, 05:41 PM
Not sure what you mean by this. Could you please explain/expand?

He is very comfortable running a offense that worked very nicely in the 90s

dudog84
12-14-2014, 04:47 PM
Agree with most of your points. McCallie is a very good coach but seems to have trouble coaching offense. Not unlike her former MSU colleague Tom Izzo. Whether or not she becomes a great coach hinges on that.

However, you just can't compare the women's game to the men's game.

I understand the point you're trying to make, as many make the same statement. However, I'm not sure I agree. Certainly men are more athletic, dunks sure help the percentages, the game is faster and smoother, the talent is deeper. But women play women, men play men, the game is basketball, the ball still has to go through the hoop.

I do have to take strong issue with this myth of P and offense. Again, it's not that I'm a huge P fan, I just hate BS.

Last year, the Duke women's scoring average was 80.0 points per game, the Duke men's was 78.4 (which spurred your comment).

Duke women's field goal percentage was .499, the Duke men's was .460.

And remember, this was a half season without Chelsea, a quarter season without Alexis. And no Chloe either when they went down.

Oh, and as for the men's vs. women's debate, how about women vs. women? The UConn women shot .503 last year. And I do believe the ACC is a stronger conference than the AAC.

Though now that y'all have made me do some research, I'm becoming more of a fan of Coach P. And Coach Brown.

uh_no
12-14-2014, 05:59 PM
But women play women, men play men, the game is basketball, the ball still has to go through the hoop.

this is so overly simplistic to be useless.

the style of offenses run are magnificently different between the two...and most of it is because women can't play above the rim. layups are not the high percentage shot they are for men, and you see very few plays around the rim. This means that there is a much higher value on team offense than individuals making plays...



I do have to take strong issue with this myth of P and offense. Again, it's not that I'm a huge P fan, I just hate BS.

really? BS? have you watched duke play top teams in the past? they go through huge droughts where they look incompetent. I don't care that your stats say on the year that they shot very well...when it comes to playing against elite defenses, they are lost....

Game 3 vs ND:
at 8:09 duke had 44 points and it was a 9 point game. duke proceeded to score TWO baskets the rest of the way out, save a garbage time bucket with 10 seconds left

Game 2 vs ND:
8 minutes into the game, duke had scored 2 points...

Game vs Uconn:
at 15:35 duke had 11 points....8 minutes game time later, duke had 12 points....
at 8:00 duke had 52 points...at 2:45, duke had.....52 points

So in 3 of the 4 biggest games last year, duke was unable to score for long stretches of time....including two such stretches vs uconn....and that was one of their best games against uconn in recent years.

BS? I think not.



Last year, the Duke women's scoring average was 80.0 points per game, the Duke men's was 78.4 (which spurred your comment). Duke women's field goal percentage was .499, the Duke men's was .460. this is meaningless as so many of the women's games are against overmatched opponents...and even further, the women's shot clock is shorter...making comparing PPG between the two genders a fools errand.

duke09hms
12-14-2014, 07:33 PM
this is so overly simplistic to be useless.

the style of offenses run are magnificently different between the two...and most of it is because women can't play above the rim. layups are not the high percentage shot they are for men, and you see very few plays around the rim. This means that there is a much higher value on team offense than individuals making plays...


really? BS? have you watched duke play top teams in the past? they go through huge droughts where they look incompetent. I don't care that your stats say on the year that they shot very well...when it comes to playing against elite defenses, they are lost....

Game 3 vs ND:
at 8:09 duke had 44 points and it was a 9 point game. duke proceeded to score TWO baskets the rest of the way out, save a garbage time bucket with 10 seconds left

Game 2 vs ND:
8 minutes into the game, duke had scored 2 points...

Game vs Uconn:
at 15:35 duke had 11 points....8 minutes game time later, duke had 12 points....
at 8:00 duke had 52 points...at 2:45, duke had.....52 points

So in 3 of the 4 biggest games last year, duke was unable to score for long stretches of time....including two such stretches vs uconn....and that was one of their best games against uconn in recent years.

BS? I think not.

this is meaningless as so many of the women's games are against overmatched opponents...and even further, the women's shot clock is shorter...making comparing PPG between the two genders a fools errand.

Thanks bro/bro-ette. Men's bball and women's bball are so different in all the ways you said. Thanks for doing the legwork.

I get dudog84 wanting to defend Coach McCallie from some of the unsubstantiated attacks on this board, but they seem to have gone way overboard to the other extreme. I think your analysis is much more even-handed.

AIM4excellence
12-15-2014, 11:14 PM
I understand the point you're trying to make, as many make the same statement. However, I'm not sure I agree. Certainly men are more athletic, dunks sure help the percentages, the game is faster and smoother, the talent is deeper. But women play women, men play men, the game is basketball, the ball still has to go through the hoop.

I do have to take strong issue with this myth of P and offense. Again, it's not that I'm a huge P fan, I just hate BS.

Last year, the Duke women's scoring average was 80.0 points per game, the Duke men's was 78.4 (which spurred your comment).

Duke women's field goal percentage was .499, the Duke men's was .460.

And remember, this was a half season without Chelsea, a quarter season without Alexis. And no Chloe either when they went down.



McCallie herself stated "offense is overrated." And Geno, in preparing to play Duke said "Duke is the easiest team to defend."

And why was Chloe no longer with the team at the end of last season? Why did they say on senior night "the four seniors who came in together, are graduating together?" Why was she simply "erased" from the team? And why do we have ZERO point guards on this year's team?

By the way, responding to an earlier post, I agree that Tricia Liston was not the best example of McCallie failing to develop players. There are plenty of much better examples. Abby Waner, Karima Christmas, Allison Vernerey.

uh_no
12-16-2014, 08:47 AM
McCallie herself stated "offense is overrated." And Geno, in preparing to play Duke said "Duke is the easiest team to defend."

And why was Chloe no longer with the team at the end of last season? Why did they say on senior night "the four seniors who came in together, are graduating together?" Why was she simply "erased" from the team? And why do we have ZERO point guards on this year's team?

By the way, responding to an earlier post, I agree that Tricia Liston was not the best example of McCallie failing to develop players. There are plenty of much better examples. Abby Waner, Karima Christmas, Allison Vernerey.

There are a lot of good tidbits out there I don't have time to go hunt down....like after the game last year, one of the uconn players said something akin to "we just had to wait for duke to go through a scoring slump...it always happens, and we just had to wait for it"

dudog84
12-17-2014, 03:04 PM
this is so overly simplistic to be useless.

the style of offenses run are magnificently different between the two...and most of it is because women can't play above the rim. layups are not the high percentage shot they are for men, and you see very few plays around the rim. This means that there is a much higher value on team offense than individuals making plays...


really? BS? have you watched duke play top teams in the past? they go through huge droughts where they look incompetent. I don't care that your stats say on the year that they shot very well...when it comes to playing against elite defenses, they are lost....

Game 3 vs ND:
at 8:09 duke had 44 points and it was a 9 point game. duke proceeded to score TWO baskets the rest of the way out, save a garbage time bucket with 10 seconds left

Game 2 vs ND:
8 minutes into the game, duke had scored 2 points...

Game vs Uconn:
at 15:35 duke had 11 points....8 minutes game time later, duke had 12 points....
at 8:00 duke had 52 points...at 2:45, duke had.....52 points

So in 3 of the 4 biggest games last year, duke was unable to score for long stretches of time....including two such stretches vs uconn....and that was one of their best games against uconn in recent years.

BS? I think not.

this is meaningless as so many of the women's games are against overmatched opponents...and even further, the women's shot clock is shorter...making comparing PPG between the two genders a fools errand.

I just love it when you take snippets of my post to attack, and ignore the rest. I admitted that the talent and game were different. However, when they both play 40 minutes, score about 80 points per game, and have a field goal percentage between 45 and 50%, I think those are bases for comparison. The shot clock, a whole 5 second difference, is irrelevant in light of the above.

Further, you make my point when you say dunks are higher percentage and the women have to play team offense…and the women’s percentage is 4 points higher. Yet you are trying to say the women’s coaches can’t coach offense. That is the problem.

I was probably wrong to bring the men into it. I’ll admit that. But you completely ignored that fact that the Uconn women shot .503 for the year, the Duke women shot .499. A 0.4% difference. And Duke played against a markedly superior conference. Without a point guard for a quarter of the year. And though the talent isn’t as deep, we played 15 ranked teams last year.

So then you cherry-pick three games. Against 2 teams that went 77-1 last year. Yes, that one loss was by one team to the other in the National Championship. Those 2 teams beat their semi-final opponents 87-61 and 75-56.

Notre Dame game 2 – you neglect to mention that we had come back to within 7 points when Alexis went down. And game 3 had no Chelsea or Alexis. This was a Notre Dame team, that except for Uconn, would have been 38-0 and proclaimed one of the greatest teams of all time.

Uconn, sigh. Yeah they own us. But they own a lot of teams. They haven’t missed a Final Four since 2007…the year before P came to Durham. Of course G did so much better. She beat them twice, by 1 point and by 2 points in overtime. That overtime win was against a Uconn team ranked #8…The only time in the last 25 years they have been ranked lower than #3 when we played them. We’ve never been ranked higher than them when playing under P. They’re pretty good. They make a lot of people look incompetent.

So yeah, I am calling BS on you.

dudog84
12-17-2014, 03:07 PM
McCallie herself stated "offense is overrated." And Geno, in preparing to play Duke said "Duke is the easiest team to defend."

And why was Chloe no longer with the team at the end of last season? Why did they say on senior night "the four seniors who came in together, are graduating together?" Why was she simply "erased" from the team? And why do we have ZERO point guards on this year's team?

By the way, responding to an earlier post, I agree that Tricia Liston was not the best example of McCallie failing to develop players. There are plenty of much better examples. Abby Waner, Karima Christmas, Allison Vernerey.

Re Chloe, I have no knowledge of her situation. But she was suspended a couple of years ago for an academic issue. Something was up. The easy thing, after Chelsea and Alexis went down, would have been bring her back quickly. You may want to follow a team that does not discipline their players or make them go to class (there is one, cough, cough, available nearby), but I do not.

I support all our players, so I am not going to touch the players you think should have been developed into WNBA stars. Jeez.

Now this part really made my blood boil. Your Geno quote sent me to Bing, and all I could find was him saying re Duke, “they're not an easy team to defend."

http://news.yahoo.com/no-3-uconn-women-top-no-5-duke-020837334--spt.html

You can have your opinions, and you can have your agenda. But you should not be allowed to post something, in quotes no less, that is blatantly false and defames a Duke program and specifically a Duke coach. Unless you can provide a link to that quote, you should be suspended from posting.

You may aim for excellence, but you hit something else entirely.

uh_no
12-17-2014, 03:18 PM
So yeah, I am calling BS on you.

Yeah, you got me! Man, don't I feel silly!

Duvall
12-17-2014, 05:41 PM
Roster mismanagement can really hurt.

killerleft
12-17-2014, 06:37 PM
Roster mismanagement can really hurt.

Is that from 'Being There'? Peter Sellars couldn't have said it better!:)

Des Esseintes
12-17-2014, 07:07 PM
I just love it when you take snippets of my post to attack, and ignore the rest. I admitted that the talent and game were different. However, when they both play 40 minutes, score about 80 points per game, and have a field goal percentage between 45 and 50%, I think those are bases for comparison. The shot clock, a whole 5 second difference, is irrelevant in light of the above.

Further, you make my point when you say dunks are higher percentage and the women have to play team offense…and the women’s percentage is 4 points higher. Yet you are trying to say the women’s coaches can’t coach offense. That is the problem.

I was probably wrong to bring the men into it. I’ll admit that. But you completely ignored that fact that the Uconn women shot .503 for the year, the Duke women shot .499. A 0.4% difference. And Duke played against a markedly superior conference. Without a point guard for a quarter of the year. And though the talent isn’t as deep, we played 15 ranked teams last year.

So then you cherry-pick three games. Against 2 teams that went 77-1 last year. Yes, that one loss was by one team to the other in the National Championship. Those 2 teams beat their semi-final opponents 87-61 and 75-56.

Notre Dame game 2 – you neglect to mention that we had come back to within 7 points when Alexis went down. And game 3 had no Chelsea or Alexis. This was a Notre Dame team, that except for Uconn, would have been 38-0 and proclaimed one of the greatest teams of all time.

Uconn, sigh. Yeah they own us. But they own a lot of teams. They haven’t missed a Final Four since 2007…the year before P came to Durham. Of course G did so much better. She beat them twice, by 1 point and by 2 points in overtime. That overtime win was against a Uconn team ranked #8…The only time in the last 25 years they have been ranked lower than #3 when we played them. We’ve never been ranked higher than them when playing under P. They’re pretty good. They make a lot of people look incompetent.

So yeah, I am calling BS on you.

Agreed with almost everything you say here. Any offense, no matter how prodigiously great, is going to experience a serious drought a few times a season. Statistical odds pretty much guarantee that missed shots will pile up from time to time. P may have a weakness in her offensive system, but it's neither present in the season-long numbers nor proven by a few cherrypicked segments from isolated games.

I'd also add that players talk trash, and that doesn't necessarily make the trash talk accurate. The UCONN player suggesting Duke was bound to hit a wall reminds me of Dunleavy twelve or so years ago asserting that Maryland ran a predictable offense and that was why he'd stolen the ball an insane three possessions in a row. I mean, maybe Maryland was predictable--to Mike D. Dunleavy was awesome and unique. That didn't make Maryland a moribund offensive team. They were in the midst of two straight Final Fours, including a national title. They were a terrific offense, the jerks. Players say stuff about teams they dislike. Let's not pretend these are words spake from out the burning bush.

Duvall
12-17-2014, 07:52 PM
Agreed with almost everything you say here.

You agreed with the comparison of raw stats from two sports played with different balls?

AIM4excellence
12-17-2014, 10:02 PM
Re Chloe, I have no knowledge of her situation. But she was suspended a couple of years ago for an academic issue. Something was up. The easy thing, after Chelsea and Alexis went down, would have been bring her back quickly. You may want to follow a team that does not discipline their players or make them go to class (there is one, cough, cough, available nearby), but I do not.

I support all our players, so I am not going to touch the players you think should have been developed into WNBA stars. Jeez.

Now this part really made my blood boil. Your Geno quote sent me to Bing, and all I could find was him saying re Duke, “they're not an easy team to defend."

http://news.yahoo.com/no-3-uconn-women-top-no-5-duke-020837334--spt.html

You can have your opinions, and you can have your agenda. But you should not be allowed to post something, in quotes no less, that is blatantly false and defames a Duke program and specifically a Duke coach. Unless you can provide a link to that quote, you should be suspended from posting.

You may aim for excellence, but you hit something else entirely.

Your agenda is coming through even louder and clearer than before.

Nice and completely invalid snipe. I was talking about why Duke whitewashed Chloe's disappearance/suspension from the team and you make an assumption I'm against discipline? It is highly unusual for a player to get taken off the roster with absolutely no statement. Only later was there a very brief mention that she was suspended from the team with no reason why. That leaves some people to speculate about the reason.

When I talked about the players who weren't developed, one of the three is having a much better bball career since leaving Duke. One developed nicely her first two years under Coach G, then regressed terribly during her junior and senior years under McCallie. The third left with the same g-awful free throw shooting I've seen since Wilt Chamberlain. I've never seen so many line drives thrown at the rim...ever.

Just because you couldn't find the quote from Geno does not mean he didn't say it - it just means you didn't find it. There was quite an uproar at the time, with McCallie defenders berating Geno for being such a pr--k. In other words, a LOT of people saw the quote. But then, since you didn't find the quote, you ASSUME I made it up????? Seriously????? It exists. He said it. He defamed our coach.

You don't have to like what I post. But stating I posted something FALSE and should be suspended from posting here crosses way over the line. You have now revealed your agenda of attacking all who criticize this coach. You can leave your many assumptions about me off your agenda next time. Thank you.

Des Esseintes
12-17-2014, 10:15 PM
Your agenda is coming through even louder and clearer than before.

Nice and completely invalid snipe. I was talking about why Duke whitewashed Chloe's disappearance/suspension from the team and you make an assumption I'm against discipline? It is highly unusual for a player to get taken off the roster with absolutely no statement. Only later was there a very brief mention that she was suspended from the team with no reason why. That leaves some people to speculate about the reason.

When I talked about the players who weren't developed, one of the three is having a much better bball career since leaving Duke. One developed nicely her first two years under Coach G, then regressed terribly during her junior and senior years under McCallie. The third left with the same g-awful free throw shooting I've seen since Wilt Chamberlain. I've never seen so many line drives thrown at the rim...ever.

Just because you couldn't find the quote from Geno does not mean he didn't say it - it just means you didn't find it. There was quite an uproar at the time, with McCallie defenders berating Geno for being such a pr--k. In other words, a LOT of people saw the quote. But then, since you didn't find the quote, you ASSUME I made it up????? Seriously????? It exists. He said it. He defamed our coach.

You don't have to like what I post. But stating I posted something FALSE and should be suspended from posting here crosses way over the line. You have now revealed your agenda of attacking all who criticize this coach. You can leave your many assumptions about me off your agenda next time. Thank you.

So you can provide a link to this quotation of Geno's that everyone talked about and no one remembers, right? That would be, like, a super-easy way to win that point.

Des Esseintes
12-17-2014, 10:17 PM
You agreed with the comparison of raw stats from two sports played with different balls?

No, but dudog's larger point that the Duke women's offense is competitive with other top programs stands, I believe.

uh_no
12-17-2014, 10:28 PM
No, but dudog's larger point that the Duke women's offense is competitive with other top programs stands, I believe.

on the whole? yes. when they play other top teams? that can hardly be true...since they seem to lose much more often than not to top teams.

unfortunately, with so few data points against reasonable opponents, it's VERY hard to tell what the actual cause is....heck we can have a season's worth of data for men, and still have trouble identifying why some teams lose....and yet we look ta 3-4 women's games a year and pretend to know for sure whether it's defense or offense. (note it can't be neither...or duke would win the games...)

It really frustrates me that there aren't more reasonable games, nor more reasonable data, since it means i can't really find data to back up my argument, nor can anyone else find reasonable data to refute it...so we get into these religious wars of YES vs NO! (i mean for real....you're looking at someone who downloads kenpom data daily...with the goal of meta-analysis)...are we REALLY trying to use something geno may or may not have said to demonstrate whether duke is good at offense? would we ever really care about what an opposing men's coach said? coach speak is coach speak.

All we really have to rely on is our own intuition and subjective analysis of what we see....and all these opinions are neither provable or disprovable (hence why i largely bowed out of the opinionated bits of this thread after giving it but 1 shot). And what do we have? instead of talking about a great game E-will and the team played against duke...we're bickering about whether coach P is or isn't a reasonable offensive coach....the results don't change, the data doesn't change, and the arguments don't change. I feel like this needs to be tabled for the year.

Kedsy
12-18-2014, 12:03 AM
on the whole? yes. when they play other top teams? that can hardly be true...since they seem to lose much more often than not to top teams.

Usually I think that, despite your UConn-centric viewpoints, you're usually reasonable and accurate, in the case of the above quote I completely disagree. I think there are plenty of data points, and you may simply be blinded by your UConn fandom.

As I posted in an earlier post in this thread, Duke under Coach P has certainly been unable to compete with Connecticut (0-6 since 2008-09, with none of the games particularly close). They are 0-5 against Notre Dame since 2008-09, but four of the five Notre Dame losses came while either Chelsea Gray or Elizabeth Williams were injured, so I'm not sure how valid those games are as data points.

But other than UConn and Notre Dame (who can't possibly be considered the only top teams, right?), from the beginning of the 2008-09 to today (including this year's three losses against ranked teams), Duke has:

Gone 5-5 against top 5 opponents who were not UConn or Notre Dame;

Gone 13-9 against top 10 opponents who were not UConn or Notre Dame (including top 5 games above);

Gone 51-18 against top 25 opponents who were not UConn or Notre Dame (including top 5 and top 10 games above).

Six of the 18 losses (not including the four Notre Dame losses under similar circumstances) came while either Chelsea or Elizabeth were injured.

So Duke doesn't "lose much more often than not to top teams." So far, we've lost to UConn and Notre Dame and won more often than not against other top teams, especially if you take our many injuries into account.

uh_no
12-18-2014, 07:56 AM
Usually I think that, despite your UConn-centric viewpoints, you're usually reasonable and accurate, in the case of the above quote I completely disagree. I think there are plenty of data points, and you may simply be blinded by your UConn fandom.

As I posted in an earlier post in this thread, Duke under Coach P has certainly been unable to compete with Connecticut (0-6 since 2008-09, with none of the games particularly close). They are 0-5 against Notre Dame since 2008-09, but four of the five Notre Dame losses came while either Chelsea Gray or Elizabeth Williams were injured, so I'm not sure how valid those games are as data points.

But other than UConn and Notre Dame (who can't possibly be considered the only top teams, right?), from the beginning of the 2008-09 to today (including this year's three losses against ranked teams), Duke has:

Gone 5-5 against top 5 opponents who were not UConn or Notre Dame;

Gone 13-9 against top 10 opponents who were not UConn or Notre Dame (including top 5 games above);

Gone 51-18 against top 25 opponents who were not UConn or Notre Dame (including top 5 and top 10 games above).

Six of the 18 losses (not including the four Notre Dame losses under similar circumstances) came while either Chelsea or Elizabeth were injured.

So Duke doesn't "lose much more often than not to top teams." So far, we've lost to UConn and Notre Dame and won more often than not against other top teams, especially if you take our many injuries into account.

I may be biased, I may not be...it's hard to know. If you take out the teams who have been consistently the best in the country the past few years (combined 8 final 4s in 4 years), of COURSE duke's record will look better...but if you say, "duke's record is gaudy against people who aren't the best," i'm going to 100% agree with you.

What it boils down to is what is the value of those wins that aren't against the top few teams? I think they're quite meaningless, and you think they are valuable. Do they show that Duke has a pretty good program? sure, they do... no argument here.

Again, the data we're missing is the value of the wins against the top 10/25 vs the value of the wins against the top 2/3 (not even top 5). In the absence of adjusted rankings, it's hard to say how much better the top 2/3 are than the rest of the country, or even the rest of the top 25. So again, we're stuck with a value judgement of which wins "really" matter...and we disagree there, and that's fine. My opinion on that may be driven by rooting for uconn, where the only really meaningful games every year are vs ND and Stanford...

but we can agree...duke has played awfully against ND and Uconn, and better against most everyone else....unfortunately, ND and uconn are the type of teams who rack up final fours...where duke ultimately ought to want to be....so discounting duke's performances against them is hardly the way to objectively view the program.

I'm officially retired from this thread...for realsies this time.

dudog84
12-19-2014, 05:22 PM
Your agenda is coming through even louder and clearer than before.

Nice and completely invalid snipe. I was talking about why Duke whitewashed Chloe's disappearance/suspension from the team and you make an assumption I'm against discipline? It is highly unusual for a player to get taken off the roster with absolutely no statement. Only later was there a very brief mention that she was suspended from the team with no reason why. That leaves some people to speculate about the reason.

When I talked about the players who weren't developed, one of the three is having a much better bball career since leaving Duke. One developed nicely her first two years under Coach G, then regressed terribly during her junior and senior years under McCallie. The third left with the same g-awful free throw shooting I've seen since Wilt Chamberlain. I've never seen so many line drives thrown at the rim...ever.

Just because you couldn't find the quote from Geno does not mean he didn't say it - it just means you didn't find it. There was quite an uproar at the time, with McCallie defenders berating Geno for being such a pr--k. In other words, a LOT of people saw the quote. But then, since you didn't find the quote, you ASSUME I made it up????? Seriously????? It exists. He said it. He defamed our coach.

You don't have to like what I post. But stating I posted something FALSE and should be suspended from posting here crosses way over the line. You have now revealed your agenda of attacking all who criticize this coach. You can leave your many assumptions about me off your agenda next time. Thank you.

I wasn’t going to respond this, but feel I must feel I must in case any casual readers think there is any validity in anything you say.

It pains me to take issue with any individual Duke players, and this is not meant to degrade any of them or the contribution they made to Duke basketball, but you named names.

I don’t choose to speculate what goes on in a young woman’s life. Chloe’s earlier suspension was stated to be for academic reasons, probably with the expectation she would be coming back and a public reason was necessary. She wasn’t coming back from a suspension in her senior year, I think it’s reasonable that Duke decided not to give you details. And I’m pretty sure that is not Coach P’s call.

Karima Christmas – I could not find the high school rankings for that year, but she was not a McDonald’s All-American. So certainly not a consensus top 20 player (McD takes 25). Her freshman to senior scoring: 4.1, 7.5, 9.6, 9.5. She’s having a “much better bball career since leaving Duke”? Really? She was drafted in the WNBA, has a career scoring average of 5.6, and has started 37 of 129 games. Yeah, Coach P really destroyed her career. One could just as easily state that Coach P and her staff developed a non high school all-american into a WNBA player.

Abby Waner – yeah, there might have been a problem here. Her sister left the team in the middle of the year. Coach G leaving was probably like a divorce to Abby. But to look at her total career, she started all Team USA’s games in the Junior Worlds (‘04) and U19 (‘05). At the U21 in ’07, the summer before Coach P came on, she started just 2 of 8 games. Each competition, her numbers went down. So while “looking” better at Duke, she was perhaps falling on the national stage. I have no knowledge of what happened over 5 years ago. Jeez, get over it. Regardless, one player’s career arc is no reason to throw a successful Duke coach under the bus.

Alison Vernery – tell P to start spending more time on the free throw technique of a substitute player. BTW, ask Shaq about free throws. Phil Jackson and Pat Riley were among his coaches. And we know what crappy coaches they are.

Your 4th paragraph…just…wow. Stamp your feet a little more. Better yet, find a link to that quote.

It’s the entire tenor of all of your posts…”The statement that Duke is “offense challenged” can be its’ own drinking game” (sic)…”The great majority of women’s bball fans around the country know that Duke’s not going anywhere good under McCallie”…”We can do WAY better and one day we will”…

What you provide is not what you call “honest critique”. Given the standards that are posted at the top of this board, you are at best “rumor mongering” and at worst “destructively negative”.

Finally, you think Dawn Staley is the answer? Boom??? Dawn Staley, who has been coaching Division 1 women’s basketball for 14 years, 6 at the University of South Carolina, and has made the Sweet Sixteen twice? Hardly “late into the post-season”.

Versus Joanne P. McCallie? Who in her first year at Maine was 9-20, and 2 years later started them on a string of 6 straight NCAAs? At Maine? Then went to Michigan State, was 10-18 her first year, and 4 years later had them in the National Championship game?

I’m going out on a limb here and saying she’s a pretty good coach. Is she perfect? No. I’ll also posit that no one short of Geno could make the Final Four with injuries to every single one of his top 10 recruits. I’m not even sure he could.

But your constant drumbeat to run Coach P out of town on a rail is maniacal.

Henderson
12-19-2014, 08:43 PM
You agreed with the comparison of raw stats from two sports played with different balls?

Which got me wondering: Are there two sports that use the same ball?

uh_no
12-19-2014, 11:14 PM
Which got me wondering: Are there two sports that use the same ball?

Ping pong and...ummm....beverage pong?

AIM4excellence
12-20-2014, 10:30 AM
Finding stats to support your pre-formed thesis does not prove anything except you're willing to hunt in trying to prove your point.

The fact that I've been unable to find a quote on the internet does not "prove" he did not say it. Geno did say that it's easy to prepare to defend Duke. You can continue to base your attacks on me that "if I can't find it, it didn't happen" so this means I made it up for nefarious reasons. You need to back off on your campaign to eliminate me from this board based on your assumption. Speaking of board rules, a poster who keeps stating another poster is breaking rules is, in itself, breaking rules. That is the job of moderators, not you. Believe me, when I find this quote, I will post it. It does not appear on any of the lists of top quotes of Geno, but that doesn't mean anything other than he has lots of zingers people like better. Geno's reasons why Geno's team trounces McCallie's team explains why so few UConn fans make the trek to Durham for the game. Thy are bored with this series due to lack of competition. If pointing out that attendance is decreasing on average, and especially for the big games makes me negative, so be it. It's just fact. It means fewer people are interested in watching this team play. Some of us are saddened by this FACT and lament the decline in the program that's led to this FACT.


I wasn’t going to respond this, but feel I must feel I must in case any casual readers think there is any validity in anything you say.

It pains me to take issue with any individual Duke players, and this is not meant to degrade any of them or the contribution they made to Duke basketball, but you named names.

I don’t choose to speculate what goes on in a young woman’s life. Chloe’s earlier suspension was stated to be for academic reasons, probably with the expectation she would be coming back and a public reason was necessary. She wasn’t coming back from a suspension in her senior year, I think it’s reasonable that Duke decided not to give you details. And I’m pretty sure that is not Coach P’s call.

Karima Christmas – I could not find the high school rankings for that year, but she was not a McDonald’s All-American. So certainly not a consensus top 20 player (McD takes 25). Her freshman to senior scoring: 4.1, 7.5, 9.6, 9.5. She’s having a “much better bball career since leaving Duke”? Really? She was drafted in the WNBA, has a career scoring average of 5.6, and has started 37 of 129 games. Yeah, Coach P really destroyed her career. One could just as easily state that Coach P and her staff developed a non high school all-american into a WNBA player.

Abby Waner – yeah, there might have been a problem here. Her sister left the team in the middle of the year. Coach G leaving was probably like a divorce to Abby. But to look at her total career, she started all Team USA’s games in the Junior Worlds (‘04) and U19 (‘05). At the U21 in ’07, the summer before Coach P came on, she started just 2 of 8 games. Each competition, her numbers went down. So while “looking” better at Duke, she was perhaps falling on the national stage. I have no knowledge of what happened over 5 years ago. Jeez, get over it. Regardless, one player’s career arc is no reason to throw a successful Duke coach under the bus.

Alison Vernery – tell P to start spending more time on the free throw technique of a substitute player. BTW, ask Shaq about free throws. Phil Jackson and Pat Riley were among his coaches. And we know what crappy coaches they are.

Your 4th paragraph…just…wow. Stamp your feet a little more. Better yet, find a link to that quote.

It’s the entire tenor of all of your posts…”The statement that Duke is “offense challenged” can be its’ own drinking game” (sic)…”The great majority of women’s bball fans around the country know that Duke’s not going anywhere good under McCallie”…”We can do WAY better and one day we will”…

What you provide is not what you call “honest critique”. Given the standards that are posted at the top of this board, you are at best “rumor mongering” and at worst “destructively negative”.

Finally, you think Dawn Staley is the answer? Boom??? Dawn Staley, who has been coaching Division 1 women’s basketball for 14 years, 6 at the University of South Carolina, and has made the Sweet Sixteen twice? Hardly “late into the post-season”.

Versus Joanne P. McCallie? Who in her first year at Maine was 9-20, and 2 years later started them on a string of 6 straight NCAAs? At Maine? Then went to Michigan State, was 10-18 her first year, and 4 years later had them in the National Championship game?

I’m going out on a limb here and saying she’s a pretty good coach. Is she perfect? No. I’ll also posit that no one short of Geno could make the Final Four with injuries to every single one of his top 10 recruits. I’m not even sure he could.

But your constant drumbeat to run Coach P out of town on a rail is maniacal.

Des Esseintes
12-20-2014, 10:50 AM
Finding stats to support your pre-formed thesis does not prove anything except you're willing to hunt in trying to prove your point.

The fact that I've been unable to find a quote on the internet does not "prove" he did not say it. Geno did say that it's easy to prepare to defend Duke. You can continue to base your attacks on me that "if I can't find it, it didn't happen" so this means I made it up for nefarious reasons. You need to back off on your campaign to eliminate me from this board based on your assumption. Speaking of board rules, a poster who keeps stating another poster is breaking rules is, in itself, breaking rules. That is the job of moderators, not you. Believe me, when I find this quote, I will post it. It does not appear on any of the lists of top quotes of Geno, but that doesn't mean anything other than he has lots of zingers people like better. Geno's reasons why Geno's team trounces McCallie's team explains why so few UConn fans make the trek to Durham for the game. Thy are bored with this series due to lack of competition. If pointing out that attendance is decreasing on average, and especially for the big games makes me negative, so be it. It's just fact. It means fewer people are interested in watching this team play. Some of us are saddened by this FACT and lament the decline in the program that's led to this FACT.

What do we get when we run a search for +"geno auriemma" +duke +"easy to defend" (https://www.google.com/search?q=%2B%22geno+auriemma%22+%2Bduke+%2B%22easy +to+defend%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8)? We get zero (0) search results. Now, you claimed that everyone was talking about this quotation and that it was a cause celebre when Geno said it. So why has the internet NO recollection of this infamous statement? The internet remembers Everything. If I didn't know you and respect your work on this board as much as I do, I'd wonder if your rodomontade against McCallie wasn't causing you to be perhaps a little casual about the facts.

Henderson
12-20-2014, 10:58 AM
What do we get when we run a search for +"geno auriemma" +duke +"easy to defend" (https://www.google.com/search?q=%2B%22geno+auriemma%22+%2Bduke+%2B%22easy +to+defend%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8)? We get zero (0) search results. Now, you claimed that everyone was talking about this quotation and that it was a cause celebre when Geno said it. So why has the internet NO recollection of this infamous statement? The internet remembers Everything. If I didn't know you and respect your work on this board as much as I do, I'd wonder if your rodomontade against McCallie wasn't causing you to be perhaps a little casual about the facts.

That statement attributed to Geno needs to be supported or withdrawn. I looked for it and couldn't find it either.

Or maybe AIM was talking about frozen Geno's pizzas. There have been more than a few of them consumed about 4:20 a.m. where the sausages spelled out weird messages. Or so I've read.

aswewere
12-20-2014, 01:50 PM
Watch reruns of any of the UConn games then draw your own conclusion of our offense against a good defense.
A Geno quote is not necessary to see the obvious.

Des Esseintes
12-20-2014, 03:25 PM
Watch reruns of any of the UConn games then draw your own conclusion of our offense against a good defense.
A Geno quote is not necessary to see the obvious.

Move the goalposts much? The question under discussion is whether a poster, you know, invented a quote to slur a Duke coach on a Duke board. Maybe you feel that's a completely copacetic behavior. Fine, you're entitled to your opinion as much as anyone. But have the courage of your convictions to say so. Changing the subject is not an acceptable response.

As to your point, Duke has played lots of good defenses over the years. Kedsy and others have pointed out that Duke has beaten a host of other top ten teams not named Connecticut or Notre Dame. No one is saying Duke has played well against UCONN under P. We'd all love to see that change. I think a coach's acumen should be assessed by more than 1-2 games per season myself.

AIM4excellence
12-20-2014, 03:31 PM
That statement attributed to Geno needs to be supported or withdrawn. I looked for it and couldn't find it either.

Or maybe AIM was talking about frozen Geno's pizzas. There have been more than a few of them consumed about 4:20 a.m. where the sausages spelled out weird messages. Or so I've read.

If the rule is if you can't find proof that a statement was made then it must be withdrawn, then I withdraw it. I cannot find the proof. This, in NO way constitutes any proof that it wasn't said. I absolutely did not fabricate it. And, as others have stated, one's eyes can tell it's true when watching a Duke/UConn game. In the Duke offense, especially with the better teams, there has always been one central focal point of the offense. UConn simply takes that player out of the game by face guarding them. And they always have a post player who can limit EWill one on one. That's really all they do. Why change it up if it's working?

Des Esseintes
12-20-2014, 03:44 PM
If the rule is if you can't find proof that a statement was made then it must be withdrawn, then I withdraw it. I cannot find the proof. This, in NO way constitutes any proof that it wasn't said. I absolutely did not fabricate it. And, as others have stated, one's eyes can tell it's true when watching a Duke/UConn game. In the Duke offense, especially with the better teams, there has always been one central focal point of the offense. UConn simply takes that player out of the game by face guarding them. And they always have a post player who can limit EWill one on one. That's really all they do. Why change it up if it's working?

If the rule is if you can't find proof that an event happened then it must be withdrawn, then I withdraw my claim against Santa. I cannot find the proof. This in NO way constitutes proof that Santa Claus was free from involvement in President Kennedy's assassination. I absolutely did not fabricate his heinous act of violence. And, as others have said, facts do not lie. All the best physics analysis shows the President was shot from the grassy knoll overlooking Dealey Plaza, yet no one was ever apprehended. How could the assailant have so easily evaded capture? Any child can tell you the escape must have been swift and through the air yet undetectable by contemporary radar towers. The answer is simple, and I am frustrated by those of you who prefer to keep your heads in the sand. To those of you invested in protecting Santa at all costs, I cannot but conclude your reasons for doing so are suspect. I expected better from this board, but perhaps I should not have. The reach of Claus is long.

cspan37421
12-20-2014, 03:55 PM
I cannot find the proof. This, in NO way constitutes any proof that it wasn't said.

Have you ever heard the saying that you cannot prove a negative?

How about the saying that the burden of proof is on the person making the claim (cf the RS/UVA story)?

sagegrouse
12-20-2014, 04:15 PM
Have you ever heard the saying that you cannot prove a negative?

How about the saying that the burden of proof is on the person making the claim (cf the RS/UVA story)?

Especially when the claim is one of a lengthy series that denigrates the head coach of a Duke sport on a Duke fan board. I appreciate the efforts of Kedsy, dudog and others to defend Coach P against claims that seem to me to be mostly "foaming at the mouth" against said coach and ad hominem attacks against those who disagree.

dudog84
12-20-2014, 04:37 PM
Finding stats to support your pre-formed thesis does not prove anything except you're willing to hunt in trying to prove your point.

The fact that I've been unable to find a quote on the internet does not "prove" he did not say it. Geno did say that it's easy to prepare to defend Duke. You can continue to base your attacks on me that "if I can't find it, it didn't happen" so this means I made it up for nefarious reasons. You need to back off on your campaign to eliminate me from this board based on your assumption. Speaking of board rules, a poster who keeps stating another poster is breaking rules is, in itself, breaking rules. That is the job of moderators, not you. Believe me, when I find this quote, I will post it. It does not appear on any of the lists of top quotes of Geno, but that doesn't mean anything other than he has lots of zingers people like better. Geno's reasons why Geno's team trounces McCallie's team explains why so few UConn fans make the trek to Durham for the game. Thy are bored with this series due to lack of competition. If pointing out that attendance is decreasing on average, and especially for the big games makes me negative, so be it. It's just fact. It means fewer people are interested in watching this team play. Some of us are saddened by this FACT and lament the decline in the program that's led to this FACT.

O……M…………….G. Now you’re going to berate me for using facts and links to support my statements?

I’m so sorry I actually provided a link after months of research (um, 2 seconds on Bing) that has Geno saying the EXACT OPPOSITE of your quote.

Here’s another quote for you, from Jesus Quintana: “I don’t [bleep] care! It don’t matter to Jesus. But you not fooling me, man. You might fool [others]. But you don’t fool Jesus. It’s bush-league psych-out stuff. Laughable, man!” (provide your own cackle)

Could you please point out to me where in the board rules it says that I'm not allowed to blow holes in someone’s scurrilous statements.

And I could give a rip how may UConn fans attend our games. Last year’s game in Cameron was sold out, by the way. Attendance could be down for any number of reasons…weather, ticket prices…Oh gee, wait…A lead from Thursday’s DBR home page states: “Attendance Woes Continue Across The Nation”.

Coach P must be stopped! She’s killing the entire game of basketball!

duke4ever19
12-20-2014, 04:49 PM
Have you ever heard the saying that you cannot prove a negative?

Actually, you can prove a negative.

For example, I could prove to you that I do not have twelve full grown, real, living breathing foxes in my left coat pocket by showing you the contents of said pocket.

Of course, a common tactic in response is to "move the goalposts" (as was mentioned earlier) by stating that perhaps the foxes are invisible, but this an illogical informal fallacy. If we first agreed to real, live, full-grown foxes in my coat pocket, it is irrelevant if one decides to invent other excuses.

jimmymax
12-20-2014, 04:56 PM
In an earlier post I ragged on the loss to SC but did not intend to be critical of Coach P or her coaching philosophy/ability. Coach G's departure is a separate issue. My frustration of late is with the team's inability to crack/stay in the upper echelon. There have been several years of top recruiting classes, several regular seasons with very high rankings, but also several seasons of failures against the perennial top teams. Clearly, the Duke women's program has nothing be be ashamed of. It has enjoyed tremendous success. As fans we hope for a little more. We want the team to get over that last hump and regularly compete for a championship. But it is a tough road to hoe. To me it's a waste of time to sling hypothetical explanations/excuses re injuries of the past, etc. That stuff evens out for all teams. And so many stats are bogus, like when they say TeamX has a hard time beating TeamY: "Look at the results over the last 20 years", when none of the current players has been on their team more than four years. What impact does the other 16 years have on the current players? We all long for improvement and ultimately a national championship. Coach P may or may not get it, but if some are unhappy the progress under her watch, thre is no obvious replacement that will guarantee better results.

AIM4excellence
12-20-2014, 04:57 PM
O……M…………….G. Now you’re going to berate me for using facts and links to support my statements?

I’m so sorry I actually provided a link after months of research (um, 2 seconds on Bing) that has Geno saying the EXACT OPPOSITE of your quote.

Here’s another quote for you, from Jesus Quintana: “I don’t [bleep] care! It don’t matter to Jesus. But you not fooling me, man. You might fool [others]. But you don’t fool Jesus. It’s bush-league psych-out stuff. Laughable, man!” (provide your own cackle)

Could you please point out to me where in the board rules it says that I'm not allowed to blow holes in someone’s scurrilous statements.

And I could give a rip how may UConn fans attend our games. Last year’s game in Cameron was sold out, by the way. Attendance could be down for any number of reasons…weather, ticket prices…Oh gee, wait…A lead from Thursday’s DBR home page states: “Attendance Woes Continue Across The Nation”.

Coach P must be stopped! She’s killing the entire game of basketball!

Yes, it appears to take longer than 2 seconds to find the correct quote (the quote I had to withdraw when not finding proof it happened). As far as who's playing the fool, I'll let the scores of Duke vs UConn under Coach McCallie speak for themselves. So, we've finally got the margin of loss under 30 points. That's some kind of achievement. If Geno said Duke is hard to defend, he was pulling your leg. Seriously. What coach who beats a team by 20++ pts year after year is going to honestly say the other team is hard to defend?

And it really doesn't matter how big the Greek chorus of McCallie defenders is, that does not make you right. DWB is nowhere near the high level it was before McCallie arrived. When DWB used to beat UConn almost half the time.

And, by the way, the specific thing I objected to was for you to call for me to be removed from the board. I really don't care how many pot shots you shoot, but a poster attempting to do a moderator's job is not acceptable. Your response indicated you needed to have that point made crystal clear.

jimsumner
12-20-2014, 04:58 PM
In an earlier post I ragged on the loss to SC but did not intend to be critical of Coach P or her coaching philosophy/ability. Coach G's departure is a separate issue. My frustration of late is with the team's inability to crack/stay in the upper echelon. There have been several years of top recruiting classes, several regular seasons with very high rankings, but also several seasons of failures against the perennial top teams. Clearly, the Duke women's program has nothing be be ashamed of. It has enjoyed tremendous success. As fans we hope for a little more. We want the team to get over that last hump and regularly compete for a championship. But it is a tough road to hoe. To me it's a waste of time to sling hypothetical explanations/excuses re injuries of the past, etc. That stuff evens out for all teams. And so many stats are bogus, like when they say TeamX has a hard time beating TeamY: "Look at the results over the last 20 years", when none of the current players has been on their team more than four years. What impact does the other 16 years have on the current players? We all long for improvement and ultimately a national championship. Coach P may or may not get it, but if some are unhappy the progress under her watch, thre is no obvious replacement that will guarantee better results.

Rhetorical question. Is hoeing a road more or less difficult than hoeing a row, which is an actual thing?

Pet peeve. :)

aswewere
12-20-2014, 05:12 PM
Would love to sit with some of you so you can point out to me these nice plays we have designed to get
our better shooters open. Then we could close the chapter on our well lubed offense and then move on to
why so many assistant coaches left with no love for us now.

Des Esseintes
12-20-2014, 05:33 PM
Would love to sit with some of you so you can point out to me these nice plays we have designed to get
our better shooters open. Then we could close the chapter on our well lubed offense and then move on to
why so many assistant coaches left with no love for us now.

That sounds like an awesome sitdown, dude. Do you think, if there was enough extra time and stuff, we could add a third item to the agenda? Because I'd really love to hear about the fan psychology that can have a perennial top ten program and still complain relentlessly. I sure do love learning.

cspan37421
12-20-2014, 05:37 PM
Actually, you can prove a negative.

For example, I could prove to you that I do not have twelve full grown, real, living breathing foxes in my left coat pocket by showing you the contents of said pocket.

Of course, a common tactic in response is to "move the goalposts" (as was mentioned earlier) by stating that perhaps the foxes are invisible, but this an illogical informal fallacy. If we first agreed to real, live, full-grown foxes in my coat pocket, it is irrelevant if one decides to invent other excuses.

heh heh, yes, I knew that ... that's why I referred to it as a saying. It is usually the case though [I like your variation on Russell's Teapot!], and it certainly applies here: none of us can prove Geno didn't say those words. But it is looking increasingly likely that he didn't, at least not without some meaning-changing words added to it.

uh_no
12-20-2014, 05:41 PM
Actually, you can prove a negative.

For example, I could prove to you that I do not have twelve full grown foxes in my left coat pocket by showing you the contents and letting you tear the entire up that pocket to your satisfaction in search of said foxes.

It's a common misconception.

The challenge, though, is that to prove the non-existence of something (you do not have foxes in your pocket), you must exhaustively search ('brute force") all existing things (the things in your pocket)....whereas to prove that something exists, you have to find just a single example. So while it's much harder in general cases such as these, you're correct that it's not impossible.

This relatively difficult method, though, is not necessary when there is some further structure to the problem....such as

Prove that no even primes but 2 exist

Now, by my first position, we would have to exhaustively search all primes to demonstrate that there are none that are a power of 2 (which of course would not only be hard, but impossible...as there are infinitely many primes)....but we can also try something else....contradiction!

preconditions:
for all x,y prime(x) => equals(x,y) or equals(y,1) or !divides(y,x)
for all x: prime(x) => !equals(x,1)
for all x: divides(2,x) <=> even(x)
!equals(2,1)

prove:
! exists x: !equals(x,2) && even(x) && prime(x)


CNF:
1: !prime(x) || equals(x,y) || equals(y,1) || !divides(y,x)
2: !prime(x) || !equals(x,1)
3: !divides(2,x) || even(x)
4: divides(2,x) || !even(x)
5: !equals(2,1)

assume
6: !equals(A,2)
7: even(A)
8: prime(A)

conclusions:
9: divides(2,A) 7,4 A/x
10: !prime(A) || equals(A,2) || equals(2,1) 9,1 A/x 2/y
11: !prime(A) || equals(A,2) 5,10
12: !prime(A) 11,6
13 contradiction 12,8

just a wee bit of logic and proving that negative was easy!

aswewere
12-20-2014, 06:48 PM
That sounds like an awesome sitdown, dude. Do you think, if there was enough extra time and stuff, we could add a third item to the agenda? Because I'd really love to hear about the fan psychology that can have a perennial top ten program and still complain relentlessly. I sure do love learning.

Getting crowed under the rug you just swept me and you could coach us to top ten with all the big
macs we have had.

Duvall
12-20-2014, 07:19 PM
Honestly, we just need to put in the legwork and figure what the offensive efficiency is for Duke and other top programs in games against ranked and highly ranked opponents.

dball
12-20-2014, 07:50 PM
Rhetorical question. Is hoeing a road more or less difficult than hoeing a row, which is an actual thing?

Pet peeve. :)

at least he wasn't hoeing roe, which is a really hard way to get caviar.

AIM4excellence
12-20-2014, 08:06 PM
heh heh, yes, I knew that ... that's why I referred to it as a saying. It is usually the case though [I like your variation on Russell's Teapot!], and it certainly applies here: none of us can prove Geno didn't say those words. But it is looking increasingly likely that he didn't, at least not without some meaning-changing words added to it.

It doesn't really matter how unlikely it is. It did happen. I'm sorry I can't find the proof. But he said it. And his teams prove it. The only constants are the coaches, since, as has been pointed out, the players change, but the same thing happens.

Y'all can be nice and happy with what we've got. Those of us who've experienced better, want it back. Pretending that we aren't less than what we were is pure fantasy. But if DWB is not your main team you root for, maybe you're perfectly happy with a team that wins lots of games but never the big ones.

Those who are attempting to discredit me because I can't find the proof, you will look like fools when I finally find it. If it makes you happy, keep on with the assault on my credibility. I've got the truth behind me, something you don't have.

-jk
12-20-2014, 08:34 PM
It doesn't really matter how unlikely it is. It did happen. I'm sorry I can't find the proof. But he said it. And his teams prove it. The only constants are the coaches, since, as has been pointed out, the players change, but the same thing happens.

Y'all can be nice and happy with what we've got. Those of us who've experienced better, want it back. Pretending that we aren't less than what we were is pure fantasy. But if DWB is not your main team you root for, maybe you're perfectly happy with a team that wins lots of games but never the big ones.

Those who are attempting to discredit me because I can't find the proof, you will look like fools when I finally find it. If it makes you happy, keep on with the assault on my credibility. I've got the truth behind me, something you don't have.

"Those of us who've experienced better, want it back." You want it back? OK; fine. Give us a plan. 'Cause I just don't see a bunch of coaches, better than P, out there looking for a new gig.

I get you don't like P. OK, then, who's your target now? Just who are you going to get to come to Duke? Which coach, better than P, wants to leave her/his current position? I'm not seeing a lot of options out there...

-jk

cspan37421
12-20-2014, 10:06 PM
It doesn't really matter how unlikely it is. It did happen. I'm sorry I can't find the proof. But he said it. And his teams prove it. The only constants are the coaches, since, as has been pointed out, the players change, but the same thing happens.

Y'all can be nice and happy with what we've got. Those of us who've experienced better, want it back. Pretending that we aren't less than what we were is pure fantasy. But if DWB is not your main team you root for, maybe you're perfectly happy with a team that wins lots of games but never the big ones.

Those who are attempting to discredit me because I can't find the proof, you will look like fools when I finally find it. If it makes you happy, keep on with the assault on my credibility. I've got the truth behind me, something you don't have.

I was merely pointing out flaws in your argument. I'm not here to defend - or criticize - Coach P. Sorry, but I just couldn't resist posting when you more or less said that none of us couldn't prove he didn't say it.

sagegrouse
12-20-2014, 10:10 PM
It doesn't really matter how unlikely it is. It did happen. I'm sorry I can't find the proof. But he said it. And his teams prove it. The only constants are the coaches, since, as has been pointed out, the players change, but the same thing happens.

Y'all can be nice and happy with what we've got. Those of us who've experienced better, want it back. Pretending that we aren't less than what we were is pure fantasy. But if DWB is not your main team you root for, maybe you're perfectly happy with a team that wins lots of games but never the big ones.

Those who are attempting to discredit me because I can't find the proof, you will look like fools when I finally find it. If it makes you happy, keep on with the assault on my credibility. I've got the truth behind me, something you don't have.

"the players change but the same thing happens"... which, I suppose, could mean that UConn has had better players consistently.

"you will look like fools"... Are you exempt from any actions by moderators to preserve civility on this Board?

77devil
12-21-2014, 07:03 AM
It doesn't really matter how unlikely it is. It did happen. I'm sorry I can't find the proof. But he said it. And his teams prove it. The only constants are the coaches, since, as has been pointed out, the players change, but the same thing happens.

Y'all can be nice and happy with what we've got. Those of us who've experienced better, want it back. Pretending that we aren't less than what we were is pure fantasy. But if DWB is not your main team you root for, maybe you're perfectly happy with a team that wins lots of games but never the big ones.

Those who are attempting to discredit me because I can't find the proof, you will look like fools when I finally find it. If it makes you happy, keep on with the assault on my credibility. I've got the truth behind me, something you don't have.

It seems every thread on DWB eventually devolves into rants about Coach P. Let's call it McCallie's law.

dudog84
12-21-2014, 07:29 PM
Especially when the claim is one of a lengthy series that denigrates the head coach of a Duke sport on a Duke fan board. I appreciate the efforts of Kedsy, dudog and others to defend Coach P against claims that seem to me to be mostly "foaming at the mouth" against said coach and ad hominem attacks against those who disagree.

It's worse than that. They've also attacked Coach Brown and blamed the conditioning staff for in-game injuries. I honestly cannot believe this board allows for a poster to cite unsubstantiated quotes and directly call for the firing of a coach that in 7 years has 3 ACC Championships and appeared in 3 more ACC Championship games.

Oh, and I'm also disappointed that no one seems to have gotten The Big Lebowski reference. :)

dudog84
12-21-2014, 07:43 PM
Yes, it appears to take longer than 2 seconds to find the correct quote (the quote I had to withdraw when not finding proof it happened). As far as who's playing the fool, I'll let the scores of Duke vs UConn under Coach McCallie speak for themselves. So, we've finally got the margin of loss under 30 points. That's some kind of achievement. If Geno said Duke is hard to defend, he was pulling your leg. Seriously. What coach who beats a team by 20++ pts year after year is going to honestly say the other team is hard to defend?

And it really doesn't matter how big the Greek chorus of McCallie defenders is, that does not make you right. DWB is nowhere near the high level it was before McCallie arrived. When DWB used to beat UConn almost half the time.

And, by the way, the specific thing I objected to was for you to call for me to be removed from the board. I really don't care how many pot shots you shoot, but a poster attempting to do a moderator's job is not acceptable. Your response indicated you needed to have that point made crystal clear.

Oh, I see. When you quote the quote that can't be found, it came from on high. When I cite and link a quote that is the exact opposite, it's coachspeak. I get it now. Silly me.

As for that high level against UConn, Coach G played UConn all of once in her first 10 years, 5 times total in 15 years. Coach P has played them 6 times in 7 years, 7 years that UConn has never missed the Final Four.

You've made several specific objections, all without facts or citations. And I'm not going to call out the mods, that would be mod baiting (another no-no). I assume they're volunteers and have better things to do.

And I'm not Greek.

dudog84
12-21-2014, 07:46 PM
It doesn't really matter how unlikely it is. It did happen. I'm sorry I can't find the proof. But he said it. And his teams prove it. The only constants are the coaches, since, as has been pointed out, the players change, but the same thing happens.

Y'all can be nice and happy with what we've got. Those of us who've experienced better, want it back. Pretending that we aren't less than what we were is pure fantasy. But if DWB is not your main team you root for, maybe you're perfectly happy with a team that wins lots of games but never the big ones.

Those who are attempting to discredit me because I can't find the proof, you will look like fools when I finally find it. If it makes you happy, keep on with the assault on my credibility. I've got the truth behind me, something you don't have.

And now you're calling me a fool and a liar. Keep those standards high.

AIM4excellence
12-21-2014, 07:59 PM
It's worse than that. They've also attacked Coach Brown and blamed the conditioning staff for in-game injuries. I honestly cannot believe this board allows for a poster to cite unsubstantiated quotes and directly call for the firing of a coach that in 7 years has 3 ACC Championships and appeared in 3 more ACC Championship games.

Oh, and I'm also disappointed that no one seems to have gotten The Big Lebowski reference. :)

I realize you used "they" and want to make sure people know that I have not done all the things named here.

Yes, it seems to be hard for some to understand that passionate fans of THIS team are not happy with the backward direction of the program. I could cite all the many ways the program has gone backwards, but don't want to bore you. Here's a short list:

Zero Final Fours after FOUR in the previous 8 years.
Zero wins over UConn and losing every year by an average of 25+ points, after beating UConn twice in the previous 8 years
Zero wins over Notre Dame (while in the top 5) after going fairly even with them prior
Rare sell out crowds after several sell out games every season in the 8 years prior

Coach G was "let go" because she couldn't win a National Championship. This coach can't get us close to that game.

This is not to start a debate over why Coach G left. She was treated miserably and sought a program that would respect her work. The fact that her next job didn't work out does not speak to the heights she took this program. And it's gone steadily backwards since she left, and the number of conference championships shrinking.

JBDuke
12-21-2014, 10:22 PM
I have closed this thread, as it had devolved into a uncivil mess. Posts were deleted and infractions issued.

As a general note, if you haven't read the Posting Guidelines, you need to do so. And some of you that have read them might need a refresher course. Keep it civil. Don't bash Duke players or coaches. And once you've made your point, move along. Continuing to rant just makes people tune you out and earns you infractions.