College Football Attendance

[SoCalDukeFan]

College football attendance is dropping http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/writer/jon-solomon/24730381/college-footballs-fight-to-keep-its-next-generation-of-fans.

I know that Duke has started on a major upgrade to Wade and would guess that Duke's hopes the upgrades lead to a better fan experience and better attendance.

I live in LA and my wife is an USC alum. We go to most home games and have season tickets. But I am questioning why we bother. It just seems to me that TV and money are ruining the game for the fans who go to the games, but improving it for those that stay home and watch.

The first problem is the desire for as many home games as possible. So to avoid home and home scheduling the major teams play cupcakes who will take a road game for money. Look at the SEC teams and their schedules. Its either conference games, rivalry games or cupcakes with maybe a big money one time deal on a neutral field. Why would you pay top dollar to see Alabama play Florida Atlantic or Western Carolina in person?

A major improvement would be limit the number of home games to 6.

Next problem is game times. At least for USC they are dictated by TV and not announced until about a week in advance. So you can not make family plans etc.

Thirdly, is weekday night games. While only one game and season, they are a nightmare. Hard for many working stiffs to attend, tailgating is out, and there are major issues in many places with parking, traffic, and activities going on at the school. Cal actually moved their home game to Santa Clara, almost 50 miles away.

The fans in the stands are just treated like second class citizens.

I really don't know how this issue impact Duke attendance. We are going to USC games next year, but it may be my last.

SoCal

[Native]

It just seems to me that TV and money are ruining the game for the fans who go to the games, but improving it for those that stay home and watch.

Bingo.

There's just not an incentive to go to a game in person anymore save for the atmosphere of actually being there. This is why a great, unique home atmosphere is so important. Universities — not just Duke — are going to have to figure out how to differentiate their game day experience or continue the decline.

[-jk]

Bingo.

There's just not an incentive to go to a game in person anymore save for the atmosphere of actually being there. This is why a great, unique home atmosphere is so important. Universities — not just Duke — are going to have to figure out how to differentiate their game day experience or continue the decline.

Our mantra, for years - and albeit for hoops - has been: "In is better than Out." It's all about the atmosphere...

-jk

[SoCalDukeFan]

Our mantra, for years - and albeit for hoops - has been: "In is better than Out." It's all about the atmosphere...

-jk

I like going to most games and have enjoyed going to the USC games, for the atmosphere.

But lets look at the cost. We pay $3000 to be in a support group which lets us buy 4 good (not great those are more) season tickets or $750 per ticket.
Seven games, my guess is tickets will be at least $450 each, total $1200 for seven games. Two of the games (Ark. State and Idaho) have little interest for me and the Thursday night game is one I would just as soon miss. So 4 games I want to see, $300 per game. I anticipate a family conflict and which brings in down to 3 games, $400 each. Will take a lot atmosphere for that to be worth it.

The atmosphere for Ark. State, Idaho and Thursday night will be nothing like the atmosphere for a Pac 12 rival on a Saturday.

SoCal

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

While some recognize this national trend, there are many discussions in which others berate people for not attending. Sometimes the people who carry on the most don't even live close enough to attend themselves. Other times they are at a distance in terms of having no relationship to the university, yet berate people, including students, for not attending and making the football or basketball game a top priority. Some discussions become quite ugly over this issue and what is called the "responsibility" of a true fan to be there in person. There are several such discussions going on online about the repeatedly empty east side of Wallace Wade for TV games, how bad it looks and what needs to be done about it by the true fans.

It's time to acknowledge that TV contracts rule. The atmosphere in Cameron has gradually changed to a much more scripted experience because of TV. We may see the same thing happen as more of our football games are telecast. I've been going to both football and basketball games for decades, but on a cold November night when the temperature on the field is near freezing, watching on TV may become a very attractive choice for many.;)

[fuse]

This is where the Wallace Wade renovations could be a big differentiator.

I know the plans are done, but I would have taken a different approach.

I got to sit in the blue seats for Duke-Wake, and they reminded me of a plastic interpretation of seats at Cameron. I do not mean that in a complimentary way at all. It was better than bleachers with no back.

I really think it's hard for Duke, even with sustained success, to have more than 20-25k in attendance regularly.
Why not embrace that and use bigger seats, with more legroom. I was surprised the new seats did not have cupholders.

I also think, save maybe between the 40 yards lines on both sides, make general admission free and expect whatever profit to come from concessions.

Retractable stadium awning ("shade curtains"?) could improve the fan experience on sunny days.
Work with Cisco to enable the fan experience with smartphone / tablet replays, or even concession orders (similar to what Cisco did for the new 49ers stadium).

I agree the stadium experience is a tough sell, even with tailgating.
It would be interesting to see what demographic made up the decision makers for the improvements.

[uh_no]

there's lots of talk, and most of it reasonable. I think there is one single thing that could bring numbers back up

reasonable concessions

you know how much that 10 dollar 7" diameter papa johns piece of cardboard probably cost to make? 30 cents.
you know how much the beer in my fridge cost? certainly a bit less than the infinity dollars it costs at a duke game (or most college games)

sell beer at reasonable prices
sell food at reasonable prices

people will show up


but then of course, i'm sure someone has run the money on lost concessions revenue....and apparently schools care more about that extra margin % rather than butts in seats...and that's reasonable for them....but then you can't complain about empty seats MR EX MICHIGAN AD

[arnie]

While some recognize this national trend, there are many discussions in which others berate people for not attending. Sometimes the people who carry on the most don't even live close enough to attend themselves. Other times they are at a distance in terms of having no relationship to the university, yet berate people, including students, for not attending and making the football or basketball game a top priority. Some discussions become quite ugly over this issue and what is called the "responsibility" of a true fan to be there in person. There are several such discussions going on online about the repeatedly empty east side of Wallace Wade for TV games, how bad it looks and what needs to be done about it by the true fans.

It's time to acknowledge that TV contracts rule. The atmosphere in Cameron has gradually changed to a much more scripted experience because of TV. We may see the same thing happen as more of our football games are telecast. I've been going to both football and basketball games for decades, but on a cold November night when the temperature on the field is near freezing, watching on TV may become a very attractive choice for many.;)

Agree with the TV trend, and at Duke parking has become a big deal for fans. Many years ago, unless we were playing the Heels, one could park relatively close to the stadium on the roads or unmarked lots. That all changed in the past decade or so, and now if you want to show up for a single game (no parking pass) the parking issues can change your mind. Doubt there's a solution to this outside of a concerted effort by Duke to set up an easy and consistent shuttle system. Even then, TV may rule, particularly during bad weather.

[HK Dukie]

there's lots of talk, and most of it reasonable. I think there is one single thing that could bring numbers back up

reasonable concessions

I'll take the other side of this. If they lowered general admission prices AND raised concession prices to offset the revenue decrease from admission prices I am guessing attendance would rise.

The big ticket price is the determining factor here. For example when people buy a suit say $400, they often buy accessories (concessions) they don't need and the price gets out of hand. The rationale is that the total price does not increase by a high percentage. But in isolation would they really buy that tie or shirt for $75 when they usually pay $49 for it somewhere else?

Look at razors and razorblades. Razors are cheap to hook you. The big margin is in the razorblades.

Increase concession prices, lower admission prices and you will put more people in the seats and keep the revenue the same. (there of course will be a limit to this benefit at the extremes but I would venture to say there is still some room to optimize attendance and revenue)

[uh_no]

I'll take the other side of this. If they lowered general admission prices AND raised concession prices to offset the revenue decrease from admission prices I am guessing attendance would rise.

The big ticket price is the determining factor here. For example when people buy a suit say $400, they often buy accessories (concessions) they don't need and the price gets out of hand. The rationale is that the total price does not increase by a high percentage. But in isolation would they really buy that tie or shirt for $75 when they usually pay $49 for it somewhere else?

Look at razors and razorblades. Razors are cheap to hook you. The big margin is in the razorblades.

Increase concession prices, lower admission prices and you will put more people in the seats and keep the revenue the same. (there of course will be a limit to this benefit at the extremes but I would venture to say there is still some room to optimize attendance and revenue)

aren't GA tix to many of the games like 15 bucks a pop? I know in earlier seasons it wasn't the sticker shock on admission that kept me away, but the fact that i pretty much couldn't drink or eat anything for 4 hours without being gouged like the eyes of oedipus. I'm sure someone has numbers, but you could buy scalped tickets to most home games this year for like 10 bucks....not that i'm not for giving away free tickets! but they're pretty cheap...it's like a movie!

[53n206]

"Location, location,location" an old, adadge, can now be referred to "parking, parking, parking".

[OldPhiKap]

aren't GA tix to many of the games like 15 bucks a pop? I know in earlier seasons it wasn't the sticker shock on admission that kept me away, but the fact that i pretty much couldn't drink or eat anything for 4 hours without being gouged like the eyes of oedipus. I'm sure someone has numbers, but you could buy scalped tickets to most home games this year for like 10 bucks....not that i'm not for giving away free tickets! but they're pretty cheap...it's like a movie!

GA tix for Wake we're on sale -- $10 for adults, $5 for kids.

The biggest struggles that sports have with attendance IMO (no real order):

1. Convenience. Driving, parking, hauling, weather, versus picking up the remote in a temperature-controlled room and a comfy chair.

2. TV quality and ubiquity -- not long ago it was grainy pictures and radio; now everything is broadcast or streamed in HD and monster screens are cheap. Replays and multiple close angles make TV hard to beat in terms of seeing the details.

3. Food/drink -- concession junk v. Whatever you want. For college (or at least Duke), soda v. Whatever you want. How many people stream out at halftime to go get a drink? And fewer drinking and driving concerns on your couch.

4. Cultural shift -- we have moved from a preference of group experiences to individual ones it seems to me. Or at least, if it is a group experience, it is a virtual one. I watch Duke sports but chat as long as the evil Chatbot at the social site does not kick me out. Which takes the place, in some ways, of meeting my friends at the game and conversing face-to-face.

These are universal problems; not sure of the answers.

[gep]

I also think, save maybe between the 40 yards lines on both sides, make general admission free and expect whatever profit to come from concessions.

Retractable stadium awning ("shade curtains"?) could improve the fan experience on sunny days.
Work with Cisco to enable the fan experience with smartphone / tablet replays, or even concession orders (similar to what Cisco did for the new 49ers stadium).


I'll take the other side of this. If they lowered general admission prices AND raised concession prices to offset the revenue decrease from admission prices I am guessing attendance would rise.

The big ticket price is the determining factor here. For example when people buy a suit say $400, they often buy accessories (concessions) they don't need and the price gets out of hand. The rationale is that the total price does not increase by a high percentage. But in isolation would they really buy that tie or shirt for $75 when they usually pay $49 for it somewhere else?

Look at razors and razorblades. Razors are cheap to hook you. The big margin is in the razorblades.

Increase concession prices, lower admission prices and you will put more people in the seats and keep the revenue the same. (there of course will be a limit to this benefit at the extremes but I would venture to say there is still some room to optimize attendance and revenue)

I've started to think this way awhile ago when attendance started dwindling. Lower general admission in those "end" seats... down to free, or maybe $1 or $5. I would guess that concessions would make up almost, if not all, of the loss of ticket revenue. Get more folks in the seats.

And... I thought that one of the renovations could be a cantilevered roof over the stadium seats... kinda like University of Washington...
4550

Also, can have those "drop-down" shades from the edge of the cantilever roof depending on the sun angle...

[uh_no]

"Location, location,location" an old, adadge, can now be referred to "parking, parking, parking".

they're building a parking garage on the 751 lot at some point.....that being for the 2016 season

http://fmd.duke.edu/documents/active_projects/Science%20Drive%20751%20parking%20deck%20info.pdf

2000 spots there should definitely make life easier for some.....to me the absurd thing is that it's so hard to get back and forth to your lots....bussees run from chapel bus stop...and vans run from WW....but there are only a limited number of vans

why can't they run busses from the towerview circle like they did for the UNC game? who knows....

[OldPhiKap]

they're building a parking garage on the 751 lot at some point.....that being for the 2016 season

http://fmd.duke.edu/documents/active_projects/Science%20Drive%20751%20parking%20deck%20info.pdf

2000 spots there should definitely make life easier for some.....to me the absurd thing is that it's so hard to get back and forth to your lots....bussees run from chapel bus stop...and vans run from WW....but there are only a limited number of vans

why can't they run busses from the towerview circle like they did for the UNC game? who knows....

Only one real solution -- Monorail.

Good enough for Shelbyville, good enough for us.

Realistically, more parking decks is the only solution that provides the necessary convenience to draw the borderline fan. which is to say, the folks who turn a fair turnout to a good one, and a good one to a great one.

[SoCalDukeFan]

How many alums live within say 30 miles of Duke?

It would seem to me that if Duke and ACC concentrated on what is best for the fans in the stands and not for TV then attendance should be pretty good.

Play all the home games on Saturday, mostly in the afternoon.

Try to have attractive out of conference games.

Reasonable ticket prices, concessions etc.

Upgraded stadium.

Competitive team.

If I lived a reasonable distance from campus and you had the above then I would be a season ticket holder and look forward to a fun way to spend 6 or 7 Saturdays in the Fall.

SoCal

[dpslaw]

Thanks to the master chefs of the True Blue 'Cue Crew, my game day food and drink are way better than I could get anywhere else!

[sagegrouse]

How many alums live within say 30 miles of Duke?

It would seem to me that if Duke and ACC concentrated on what is best for the fans in the stands and not for TV then attendance should be pretty good.

Play all the home games on Saturday, mostly in the afternoon.

Try to have attractive out of conference games.

Reasonable ticket prices, concessions etc.

Upgraded stadium.

Competitive team.

If I lived a reasonable distance from campus and you had the above then I would be a season ticket holder and look forward to a fun way to spend 6 or 7 Saturdays in the Fall.

SoCal

I found the hike to the UNC game from the Duke Eye Center parking garage to be a problem. There needs to be better command-and-control over the parking situation -- surely there was a better option.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

As for the price of food at the concessions, the junk they are pawning off on the concourse currently isn't worth half what they are already charging. Raising the prices would be a really dumb move. Tailgating is the only way to get a decent meal at WW. BTW, our host got us absolutely WONderful BBQ sandwiches last year at the Duke game in Kenan. Fresh and hot and just great. So I know it's possible to provide something that isn't just last Tuesday's warmed over stuff..

Another reason for the lack of attendance, especially for students and especially at Duke is that more and more of the population is made up of foreign students and immigrants who simply don't dig football.

Love, Ima

[Duvall]

Another reason for the lack of attendance, especially for students and especially at Duke is that more and more of the population is made up of foreign students and immigrants who simply don't dig football.

Student attendance is basically a non-issue with respect to filling Wade - there just aren't enough undergrads for it to matter. It was also pretty good for the ACC games, as far as I could tell.

[MartyClark]

There are some benefits to having a bad football team. I had season tickets for Colorado for many years. They are just so stinking bad that I gave them up a few years ago.

I went to the game v. Utah on Saturday. Other than the result, it was delightful. We bought scalper tickets for $10 apiece, moved down to a better section, enjoyed great weather with a superb tail gate. The stadium was about 60% full and it was a fun, cheap afternoon.

On the other hand, it used to be fun when the games mattered and C.U. v. Nebraska was a big game.

Colorado attendance is way down but the team has been really bad for a decade.

[duke09hms]

As for the price of food at the concessions, the junk they are pawning off on the concourse currently isn't worth half what they are already charging. Raising the prices would be a really dumb move. Tailgating is the only way to get a decent meal at WW. BTW, our host got us absolutely WONderful BBQ sandwiches last year at the Duke game in Kenan. Fresh and hot and just great. So I know it's possible to provide something that isn't just last Tuesday's warmed over stuff..

Another reason for the lack of attendance, especially for students and especially at Duke is that more and more of the population is made up of foreign students and immigrants who simply don't dig football.

Love, Ima

This is true and good for the university. I believe recent statistics said ~50% of the undergraduate student body are Caucasian (traditionally the demographic with the greatest football following), with several % being international students and the entering freshman class being < %50 for the first time.

Think typical breakdown is 25-30% Asian, 10% Black, 5-10% Hispanic, and 10% international. Doesn't mean we/they don't end up loving football, it just makes Duke football fans uniquely Duke.


Student attendance is basically a non-issue with respect to filling Wade - there just aren't enough undergrads for it to matter. It was also pretty good for the ACC games, as far as I could tell.

Yep, this is true too. Filling the stadium is definitely NOT on the students. Even if Duke football became as big as Duke basketball, that would translate to a turnout of ~1500 Duke students. Granted, football is different, but at most, we could expect ~3000 students to show up (half the undergrads), and Wade could still be empty.

[tux]

Lot of interesting takes in this thread. I'm both looking forward to the renovations and not convinced that they will move the needle much in terms of attendance. If money wasn't an issue, I'd forget lowering the field and just rebuild the bowl to be more vertical, with better (larger) but perhaps less seats. That would create more room at the concourse level, which could maybe have more green space. Create the college football equivalent of Seattle's stadium, where a lot of fans are close to the field. I'd forget the concessions and just allow the fantastic Durham food trucks to line the concourse, along with all the great local NC craft beer outfits. Just think outside the box and create a small but intimate atmosphere that was hopefully unique. If the announcers aren't saying: "You should really come and see this new stadium Duke has built -- nothing like it in college football" then honestly it's probably just going to get us to parity with other smaller schools. I hope I'm wrong, but my feelings after seeing the plans were "that looks pretty nice" but I wish Duke had swung for the fences instead of trying to hit a double. That said, I'm not writing the checks for all this work --- probably a ton of constraints I'm too ignorant to know about...

[uh_no]

I found the hike to the UNC game from the Duke Eye Center parking garage to be a problem. There needs to be better command-and-control over the parking situation -- surely there was a better option.

there *should* be shuttles to take you to the chapel....

[Ranidad]

Clearly the attendance problem is not specific to Duke. I notice more and more stadiums with empty sections while watching games on TV than I remember from past years.

My perspective is that the money provided by TV contracts, and the facilities arms race it enabled, has shifted the athletic department focus away from the game day experience of the fans.

1) Game time TBA
With TV requiring the ability to slot games into time slots of their choosing, fans with tickets can't make plans until 2 weeks or less before the game. I'm not willing to drop the money for season tickets when I don't know how many games I'll be able to attend.

2) TV timeouts - dreaded man in the red hat
With the explosion in tv coverage, it has been awhile since I attended a game without TV timeouts, but the flow in the stadium is so disrupted waiting for the man in the red hat to wind his arm that it kills atmosphere. While it gives TV viewers a break, it is not long enough for a roundtrip from your seat to the restrooms or concessions for fans in attendance. Even more annoying in bad weather.

3) Weeknight games
It is impossible to create/maintain the atmosphere of a college football game on a weeknight. Even if it is only once a season for an ACC team, it still eats away at the value of season tickets in order to fill an open programming slot on ESPN.

4) Expanded stadium seating capacity
Many schools have used new money from TV to kick off stadium expansions. The expansions almost always seem to increase ticket prices as well as seating capacity without any benefits to those attending in terms of better sight lines, bigger seats, easier stadium access. It prices some people out, reduces the scarcity (at some institutions) that made people jump at the chance to get tickets to game, and now leaves large empty spaces even if attendance roughly matches the pre-expansion attendance numbers.

5) 12th game (i.e. extra home game for all power 5 teams)
Not TV driven but not in the interest of adding value for fans. An extra game's worth of expense for a game against an overmatched opponent, is simply a money grab by the athletic departments. It is essentially like the NFL forcing season ticket holders to buy preseason games; only bad things can happen (loss, injuries) so why would I want to go to the game at the same high prices.

Athletic departments have exacerbated the problem by trying to mimic professional game atmosphere (piped in music during stoppages instead of the band, premium game pricing, short term promos,etc..).

All in all, they have missed that the ticket/concession revenue isn't a given and that the traditions and atmosphere at the stadium are a huge part of why fans attend the games.

They need to admit that if the TV revenue is going to drive things then targets for attendance and revenue from the gate should be adjusted down.

[HK Dukie]

The student draws are not the issue with attendance. It's the surrounding small alumni base (as a national rather than local school and small enrollment in general). The casual fan is possibly attracted to the UNC, NCSU, WFU as well. And you compete a bit with the basketball fever in the area.

Nonetheless interestingly the attendance at the football games over the course of the entire year is higher than the Duke Basketball (18 games including exhibition x 9,314 per game).

31,213 Elon
25,203 Kansas
20,197 Tulane
28,131 Virginia
30,107 Virginia Tech
33,941 UNC
22,247 Wake

DUKE FOOTBALL TOTAL 191,039
DUKE BASKETBALL TOTAL 167,652

[-jk]

The student draws are not the issue with attendance. It's the surrounding small alumni base (as a national rather than local school and small enrollment in general). The casual fan is possibly attracted to the UNC, NCSU, WFU as well. And you compete a bit with the basketball fever in the area.

Nonetheless interestingly the attendance at the football games over the course of the entire year is higher than the Duke Basketball (18 games including exhibition x 9,314 per game).

31,213 Elon
25,203 Kansas
20,197 Tulane
28,131 Virginia
30,107 Virginia Tech
33,941 UNC
22,247 Wake

DUKE FOOTBALL TOTAL 191,039
DUKE BASKETBALL TOTAL 167,652

Alas, cumulative face value for a ticket isn't comparable.

-jk

[alteran]

I found the hike to the UNC game from the Duke Eye Center parking garage to be a problem. There needs to be better command-and-control over the parking situation -- surely there was a better option.

Agreed.

2 things really frustrated me this year. This was the first one. It makes a bold statement that Duke wants me to walk for 20+ minutes, passing 3 to 5 lots that are at least 3/4 empty. Almost all these lots had the game day parking placards on them, so they were certainly allotted for football parking. Now, I pay entry-level Iron Duke money, so I get that I shouldn't have a primo parking experience, but it's basically what I an afford until my kids are out of school. So, stick me out further than the upscale patrons, I got no problem with that, but good grief, don't leave lots almost entirely empty that are much closer. That's just insulting. And it's something Duke can fix.

I also think Duke needs to consider pushing back some on game times. Every game day in Durham that was nasty at noon and wonderful at 7, we played at noon. Every day that noon was nice and 7 was frigid, we played at 7. That's just mean-spirited and punitive.

I get there's ACC contractual obligations and all that. But when the first couple years of the Sunday Fox bball games, Fox put Duke on at 10 on Sunday almost every week they could. I'm sure the ACC contract said they could do that. But after a season of that, Coach K pushed back in the press a little, and Fox stopped giving Duke every bad time slot, and in fact got it down to where it seemed reasonable. I'd love to see a little pushback on the relentless bad times in football as well. I understand we want to be on TV, but maybe there's a middle ground between 1) not being on TV, and 2) our fans getting shafted EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

I know on some level this is whining, but it is also a description of a substandard fan experience. I am two miles away from Wade and want to go, but more than once this year it felt like a chore, and I went more out of a sense of obligation.

I'm not on the fence yet, Duke. But another year like this, and I will be. And that's too bad.

--alteran

[SoCalDukeFan]

Clearly the attendance problem is not specific to Duke. I notice more and more stadiums with empty sections while watching games on TV than I remember from past years.

My perspective is that the money provided by TV contracts, and the facilities arms race it enabled, has shifted the athletic department focus away from the game day experience of the fans.

1) Game time TBA
With TV requiring the ability to slot games into time slots of their choosing, fans with tickets can't make plans until 2 weeks or less before the game. I'm not willing to drop the money for season tickets when I don't know how many games I'll be able to attend.

2) TV timeouts - dreaded man in the red hat
With the explosion in tv coverage, it has been awhile since I attended a game without TV timeouts, but the flow in the stadium is so disrupted waiting for the man in the red hat to wind his arm that it kills atmosphere. While it gives TV viewers a break, it is not long enough for a roundtrip from your seat to the restrooms or concessions for fans in attendance. Even more annoying in bad weather.

3) Weeknight games
It is impossible to create/maintain the atmosphere of a college football game on a weeknight. Even if it is only once a season for an ACC team, it still eats away at the value of season tickets in order to fill an open programming slot on ESPN.

4) Expanded stadium seating capacity
Many schools have used new money from TV to kick off stadium expansions. The expansions almost always seem to increase ticket prices as well as seating capacity without any benefits to those attending in terms of better sight lines, bigger seats, easier stadium access. It prices some people out, reduces the scarcity (at some institutions) that made people jump at the chance to get tickets to game, and now leaves large empty spaces even if attendance roughly matches the pre-expansion attendance numbers.

5) 12th game (i.e. extra home game for all power 5 teams)
Not TV driven but not in the interest of adding value for fans. An extra game's worth of expense for a game against an overmatched opponent, is simply a money grab by the athletic departments. It is essentially like the NFL forcing season ticket holders to buy preseason games; only bad things can happen (loss, injuries) so why would I want to go to the game at the same high prices.

Athletic departments have exacerbated the problem by trying to mimic professional game atmosphere (piped in music during stoppages instead of the band, premium game pricing, short term promos,etc..).

All in all, they have missed that the ticket/concession revenue isn't a given and that the traditions and atmosphere at the stadium are a huge part of why fans attend the games.

They need to admit that if the TV revenue is going to drive things then targets for attendance and revenue from the gate should be adjusted down.

My favorite is when they have a long review of a play, followed by one play, followed by a TV timeout. Takes 20 minutes to run one play.

SoCal

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

My favorite is when they have a long review of a play, followed by one play, followed by a TV timeout. Takes 20 minutes to run one play.

SoCal
On the other hand, in the stadium there are times it would be helpful to see a replay of the play being reviewed, but other stuff is shown on the big screen seemingly to avoid controversy.

I've noticed in visiting different stadiums in recent years that individuality and uniqueness seem bypassed for the generic brand marketing the schools are paying for. Homogenization is the order of the day. Last year in Charlottesville, for example, the same videos Duke uses ran with same music, same idea, but with UVA faces. How is that protecting or marketing anybody's brand other than the sports management company's brand?

It's also disappointing how little information is provided about games elsewhere. That used to be part of the fun everyone in the stadium shared. The reason given for doing less of that is everyone has a smart phone. I thought the whole idea of being in the stadium was to experience the event together. Maybe the Miller Highlife delivery guy is right ........

[jjasper0729]

On the other hand, in the stadium there are times it would be helpful to see a replay of the play being reviewed, but other stuff is shown on the big screen seemingly to avoid controversy.

I've noticed in visiting different stadiums in recent years that individuality and uniqueness seem bypassed for the generic brand marketing the schools are paying for. Homogenization is the order of the day. Last year in Charlottesville, for example, the same videos Duke uses ran with same music, same idea, but with UVA faces. How is that protecting or marketing anybody's brand other than the sports management company's brand?

It's also disappointing how little information is provided about games elsewhere. That used to be part of the fun everyone in the stadium shared. The reason given for doing less of that is everyone has a smart phone. I thought the whole idea of being in the stadium was to experience the event together. Maybe the Miller Highlife delivery guy is right ........

that would be the IMG-ification of college sports in general.

I end up turning my phone off (or use airplane mode) at the game because it keeps trying to connect to wireless fighting with everyone else as well as trying to connect to different blue tooth signals which kill the battery i found.

I'm hoping the concourse changes with all of this construction make it a more pleasant experience for fans. I enjoy coming to games and watching from the stands but I have found that I have no desire to get up out of my seat for anything (thank goodness for 10 and 13 year old children to act as gophers for an old man :-) ) once the game starts.


as far as the tv time outs... how about when there's a scoring play and they go to tv time out... come back.. kick off... and go to tv time out. those are the worst!

[blUDAYvil]

Another reason for the lack of attendance, especially for students and especially at Duke is that more and more of the population is made up of foreign students and immigrants who simply don't dig football.



I don't think this is true. As an u-grad and then grad school international student for 5 years at Duke I only attended a couple of football games every year while I rarely missed a basketball game (I didn't dig either sport before coming to the US). That football suffered a 22 game losing streak while basketball hoisted a championship in that period was a major reason why.

My observations convince me that international students' motivations for attending/not attending games are very similar to US students (and have very little to do with country of origin).

[blazindw]

Agreed.

2 things really frustrated me this year. This was the first one. It makes a bold statement that Duke wants me to walk for 20+ minutes, passing 3 to 5 lots that are at least 3/4 empty. Almost all these lots had the game day parking placards on them, so they were certainly allotted for football parking. Now, I pay entry-level Iron Duke money, so I get that I shouldn't have a primo parking experience, but it's basically what I an afford until my kids are out of school. So, stick me out further than the upscale patrons, I got no problem with that, but good grief, don't leave lots almost entirely empty that are much closer. That's just insulting. And it's something Duke can fix.

I also think Duke needs to consider pushing back some on game times. Every game day in Durham that was nasty at noon and wonderful at 7, we played at noon. Every day that noon was nice and 7 was frigid, we played at 7. That's just mean-spirited and punitive.

I get there's ACC contractual obligations and all that. But when the first couple years of the Sunday Fox bball games, Fox put Duke on at 10 on Sunday almost every week they could. I'm sure the ACC contract said they could do that. But after a season of that, Coach K pushed back in the press a little, and Fox stopped giving Duke every bad time slot, and in fact got it down to where it seemed reasonable. I'd love to see a little pushback on the relentless bad times in football as well. I understand we want to be on TV, but maybe there's a middle ground between 1) not being on TV, and 2) our fans getting shafted EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

I know on some level this is whining, but it is also a description of a substandard fan experience. I am two miles away from Wade and want to go, but more than once this year it felt like a chore, and I went more out of a sense of obligation.

I'm not on the fence yet, Duke. But another year like this, and I will be. And that's too bad.

--alteran


We never had Sunday night, 10pm games for basketball on Fox Sports. There were 2 time slots: 6pm and 8pm (all times Eastern). We did have a ton of 8pm time slots and they were terrible for fans (including fans like me who would try to travel for a game). Those are done now...now, we have a ton of Saturday noon games and a couple Monday night games, and part of me longs for the return of Sunday afternoon/evening games.

As for football, we all know the traditional TV time slots: noon, 3:30pm, and 7-8pm. Of course, ESPN3 games can occur at any time and the ACCN game is usually at 12:30. It's all about TV now. Duke is in no position as a football program to fight back about when we are on TV. Just a couple years ago, they had a clause in the contract that each ACC team *had* to be on TV at least once. That was for us because no one wanted our games on TV. Now, we're on TV almost every week and I'll take any time slot we can get. Alabama doesn't get to negotiate most of their time slots other than for the first couple games of the year (which all teams do because they're usually playing cupcakes). Having a full stadium every week and having an energetic atmosphere each week, in addition to success on the field, is going to draw more eyeballs to our games and will be what leads the networks to put our games in better time slots.

[Vincetaylor]

http://online.wsj.com/articles/americans-reallocate-their-dollars-1417476499?mod=WSJ_hp_LEFTWhatsNewsCollection

I think this is your main reason right here.

[Duvall]

We never had Sunday night, 10pm games for basketball on Fox Sports. There were 2 time slots: 6pm and 8pm (all times Eastern). We did have a ton of 8pm time slots and they were terrible for fans (including fans like me who would try to travel for a game). Those are done now...now, we have a ton of Saturday noon games and a couple Monday night games, and part of me longs for the return of Sunday afternoon/evening games.

ACC has Sunday evening games on ESPNU at 6:30 pm, but Duke doesn't have one this year. (http://raycomsports.com/sports_labs_docs/m-baskbl/2014-15_m-baskbl_schedule.pdf)

[blazindw]

ACC has Sunday evening games on ESPNU at 6:30 pm, but Duke doesn't have one this year. (http://raycomsports.com/sports_labs_docs/m-baskbl/2014-15_m-baskbl_schedule.pdf)

Right, I was referring to the Sunday Night on Fox Sports deal the ACC had. We personally don't have any Sunday evening games this year.

[Bob Green]

I'll take the other side of this. If they lowered general admission prices AND raised concession prices to offset the revenue decrease from admission prices I am guessing attendance would rise.

The big ticket price is the determining factor here.

I have not read through the entire thread so perhaps this has already been pointed out but Duke football tickets are pretty darn cheap. The General Admission Family Plan cost me $350 which included the shipping and handling charge. That is four tickets to seven games for 28 total tickets. $350 divided by 28 is $12.50 per ticket. The cost of gas for driving between Hampton Roads and Durham was more than the cost of admission.

The question I have is next year, and in 2016, there are only six home games so will the GA Family Plan price be reduced or will the price per ticket increase?

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

I have not read through the entire thread so perhaps this has already been pointed out but Duke football tickets are pretty darn cheap. The General Admission Family Plan cost me $350 which included the shipping and handling charge. That is four tickets to seven games for 28 total tickets. $350 divided by 28 is $12.50 per ticket. The cost of gas for driving between Hampton Roads and Durham was more than the cost of admission.

The question I have is next year, and in 2016, there are only six home games so will the GA Family Plan price be reduced or will the price per ticket increase?
I remember a surcharge was added to ticket prices for Cameron to pay for the installation of air conditioning. I don't remember it being dropped after the installation. My point is that with the renovations going on, the possibility of ticket prices going down may be small.

[alteran]

We never had Sunday night, 10pm games for basketball on Fox Sports. There were 2 time slots: 6pm and 8pm (all times Eastern). We did have a ton of 8pm time slots and they were terrible for fans (including fans like me who would try to travel for a game). Those are done now...now, we have a ton of Saturday noon games and a couple Monday night games, and part of me longs for the return of Sunday afternoon/evening games.


Ooops.


As for football, we all know the traditional TV time slots: noon, 3:30pm, and 7-8pm. Of course, ESPN3 games can occur at any time and the ACCN game is usually at 12:30. It's all about TV now. Duke is in no position as a football program to fight back about when we are on TV. Just a couple years ago, they had a clause in the contract that each ACC team *had* to be on TV at least once. That was for us because no one wanted our games on TV. Now, we're on TV almost every week and I'll take any time slot we can get. Alabama doesn't get to negotiate most of their time slots other than for the first couple games of the year (which all teams do because they're usually playing cupcakes). Having a full stadium every week and having an energetic atmosphere each week, in addition to success on the field, is going to draw more eyeballs to our games and will be what leads the networks to put our games in better time slots.

My problem with the "TV calls all the shots" theory is that Duke spent the first half of the season playing early, and the second half playing late. Since people want to see games in the evening, shouldn't we have been playing at noon ALL year? Were we suddenly a TV draw when it got cold? (Or if noon is when people watch, why weren't we on at 7pm in September? I honestly don't know what ESPN prefers.)

If it's about TV audiences, wouldn't ESPN still want to slate the big teams/games into the same time slot year round? More or less?

My point is that somewhere, someone-- possibly Alabama :D -- is negotiating.

You're saying there's no middle ground between punishing our attendees, and getting TV coverage. Maybe you're right and there isn't.

I happen think there is. Maybe I'm wrong.

Either way, if the pattern continues, expect it to affect attendance.

[devildeac]

I have not read through the entire thread so perhaps this has already been pointed out but Duke football tickets are pretty darn cheap. The General Admission Family Plan cost me $350 which included the shipping and handling charge. That is four tickets to seven games for 28 total tickets. $350 divided by 28 is $12.50 per ticket. The cost of gas for driving between Hampton Roads and Durham was more than the cost of admission.

The question I have is next year, and in 2016, there are only six home games so will the GA Family Plan price be reduced or will the price per ticket increase?

We are Duke. What do you expect? ;):rolleyes: (Hint: IIRC from Ozzie, new tents on Blue Devil Alley went up to $1250/season [no typo]. Fortunately, we were grandfathered at $750 for this past season.) My guess would be they go up $1-2/ticket and our GA season plan next year will be about $400, including S&H.

You're correct in that the tix are still very reasonable/inexpensive for what we get.

[Bob Green]

I remember a surcharge was added to ticket prices for Cameron to pay for the installation of air conditioning. I don't remember it being dropped after the installation. My point is that with the renovations going on, the possibility of ticket prices going down may be small.

I agree 100 percent so my expectation is the price per ticket will rise. That's okay as $350 divided by 24 is $14.59 per ticket. Even if the GA Family Plan increases slightly to $380, the price per ticket remains a reasonable $15.84. $16 a ticket is a fair price (although I'd rather pay $12.50).

As far as concessions go, my purchase is limited to popcorn and a funnel cake for my grandson as I stuff myself at the TBCC tailgate before entering the stadium.

[blazindw]

Ooops.



My problem with the "TV calls all the shots" theory is that Duke spent the first half of the season playing early, and the second half playing late. Since people want to see games in the evening, shouldn't we have been playing at noon ALL year? Were we suddenly a TV draw when it got cold? (Or if noon is when people watch, why weren't we on at 7pm in September? I honestly don't know what ESPN prefers.)

If it's about TV audiences, wouldn't ESPN still want to slate the big teams/games into the same time slot year round? More or less?

My point is that somewhere, someone-- possibly Alabama :D -- is negotiating.

You're saying there's no middle ground between punishing our attendees, and getting TV coverage. Maybe you're right and there isn't.

I happen think there is. Maybe I'm wrong.

Either way, if the pattern continues, expect it to affect attendance.


We only had 2 late games in the last half of the season: UNC, which was set back in the spring when the schedule was released, and Wake. Here are all the game times we had, in order:

Elon - 6:00
Troy - 7:00
Kansas - 3:30
Tulane - 12:30
Miami - 7:30
GT - 12:30
UVa - 12:30 (Homecoming)
Pitt - 12:00
Cuse - 12:30
VT - 12:00
UNC - 7:30
Wake - 7:00

The pattern is that almost all of our home games were at noon/12:30. Only a Thursday night UNC (which was the best atmosphere I have ever seen at WW), Wake and Elon were at night. Elon wasn't on TV and we knew it wouldn't be, so we could set the time whenever we wanted. The rest were at the whim of the networks.

[alteran]

We only had 2 late games in the last half of the season: UNC, which was set back in the spring when the schedule was released, and Wake. Here are all the game times we had, in order:

Elon - 6:00
Troy - 7:00
Kansas - 3:30
Tulane - 12:30
Miami - 7:30
GT - 12:30
UVa - 12:30 (Homecoming)
Pitt - 12:00
Cuse - 12:30
VT - 12:00
UNC - 7:30
Wake - 7:00

The pattern is that almost all of our home games were at noon/12:30. Only a Thursday night UNC (which was the best atmosphere I have ever seen at WW), Wake and Elon were at night. Elon wasn't on TV and we knew it wouldn't be, so we could set the time whenever we wanted. The rest were at the whim of the networks.

Hmmm. Interesting how subjective memory can be. I guess two late games (one of which was mid-week) is not much of a pattern.

Still, the fan experience from the noon games was pretty bad, certainly compared to what it could have been. Time and parking were both unnecessary factors, the former perhaps less under Duke's control than maybe I initially thought.

I have an 8 year-old who used to go, but is now losing interest. He went for 2 seasons when we lost most of our games. I'd have pressed him a little to go this year (and he probably would have) but I knew 1) he'd end up parboiled, and 2) that'd probably turn him off from going to subsequent games. That's the current reality for some of us that go to Wade.