PDA

View Full Version : MBB: Duke 93, Army 73 Post-Game Thread



JBDuke
11-30-2014, 05:31 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

roywhite
11-30-2014, 05:54 PM
Army looked good. They play hard, and have some shooters. Wouldn't be surprised to see them do well in their conference and they have shot IMO to be an NCAA Tournament team.

Tyus was terrific with 16 points, 10 assists, and 0 turnovers; Jahlil did his thing; Justise reminded us that these kids are freshmen and are capable of making mistakes (getting in foul trouble early in this case).

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-30-2014, 05:59 PM
So... not a lot of chatter on this game... are we all in food comas?

I was able to watch the first 30 mins and thought Army was a talented opponent - probably the best outside of MSU.

Our guys looked sharp and when Army started strong, we hung in. When they cut it to 9, we responded.

Good early test.

Ichabod Drain
11-30-2014, 06:13 PM
Thought this was our worst game defensively so far. I think it was mainly due to being a little lackluster on that end of the floor. Also our best defensive player was on the bench due to fouls most the game. Overall a good win against a team that hadn't lost yet.

Checked Kenpom and our D ranking dropped five spots after the game.

lotusland
11-30-2014, 06:27 PM
Thought this was our worst game defensively so far. I think it was mainly due to being a little lackluster on that end of the floor. Also our best defensive player was on the bench due to fouls most the game. Overall a good win against a team that hadn't lost yet.

Checked Kenpom and our D ranking dropped five spots after the game.

Yeah I though the D was sub-par today. Tyus is not a great to defender but the offense runs much better with him at PG. Sheed is a better defender but he dribbles too much.

MartyClark
11-30-2014, 06:30 PM
Yeah I though the D was sub-par today. Tyus is not a great to defender but the offense runs much better with him at PG. Sheed is a better defender but he dribbles too much.

I thought Sheed's defense and hustle were great today. His dribble drives are an adventure.

ACCBBallFan
11-30-2014, 06:41 PM
Thought this was our worst game defensively so far. I think it was mainly due to being a little lackluster on that end of the floor. Also our best defensive player was on the bench due to fouls most the game. Overall a good win against a team that hadn't lost yet.

Checked Kenpom and our D ranking dropped five spots after the game.
agreed but I think you have the cause and effect in the wrong order. This year's defense success is in large part due to Justise Winslow, since without him Duke reverts to last year's defense weaknesses with the exception of big Jah.

Lackluster and noon start time may go together but have to get over that by tourney time.

On the other hand, good offensive performane by Sheed to come out of his funk. The play where he husteld back to get the steal from behind was promising.

Ditto for Tyus getting over his shooting woes.

Duke agains was bad from 3 point land but not as dependent on that as prior years.

Coach K had confidence in Amile to let him play with 3 fouls but not as much with the freshamn Winslow. Fouling a 3 point shooter for his third early foul got him a demerit.

The guys who burned Duke for 17 in first half, only got 2 in second half, so that adjustment worked, but in theory was part of the original game plan.

Kudos to Army, one guard has 6 assists and no turnovers, just no way to stop big Jah.

I expect Duke palyed an NCAA tourney team as the ultimate Patriot League tourney winner.

mr. synellinden
11-30-2014, 06:47 PM
Thought this was our worst game defensively so far. I think it was mainly due to being a little lackluster on that end of the floor. Also our best defensive player was on the bench due to fouls most the game. Overall a good win against a team that hadn't lost yet.

Checked Kenpom and our D ranking dropped five spots after the game.

Agreed on the defense looking a little too much like last season's. Part of that is the fact that Army is good and well coached and they have an excellent, tall lead guard who consistently was able to penetrate. The other part I think is that Winslow was on the bench for long stretches.

The other negative in my view was Quinn's play. He forced several shots, including at least three that led directly to three point plays or three pointers for Army. He needs to make better decisions offensively. Plays like that will cost us games against better teams - like Wisconsin.

Tyus played his best game so far - especially his disruptiveness on defense - even though he got beat off the dribble too much.

slower
11-30-2014, 06:52 PM
Wisconsin will tell us a lot. Another effort like today will probably yield a loss. We seemed to get beat on a lot of drives to the basket, which was an unwelcome flashback to last year. Amile makes me nervous when he tries to dribble for more than about 5 seconds - but otherwise, he played a good game.

Overall, a good effort against a better then expected Army team. But that same level of play may not get it done against Wisconsin.

jipops
11-30-2014, 06:59 PM
Thought this was our worst game defensively so far. I think it was mainly due to being a little lackluster on that end of the floor. Also our best defensive player was on the bench due to fouls most the game. Overall a good win against a team that hadn't lost yet.

Checked Kenpom and our D ranking dropped five spots after the game.

I thought our half court D was pretty good. It was the transition defense that was so abysmal. When Army worked the ball around in their half court offense we seemed to disrupt them well. All our guards did a nice job today in that regard. When they decided to push it quick up the floor to the basket off a Duke miss they scored at a high rate. This is the type of thing that could hurt us when ACC play begins, and maybe even Wednesday night.

wilko
11-30-2014, 07:38 PM
We were at the game in the General Admission section!
My son had his 1st trip to Cameron. It was a blast and a thrill for him...

He was dismayed that we didn't have actual seats and that we had to stand the whole time...
He said "They are HUGE! the small ones are still big" and "FAST"...

The size of the players and speed of the game doesn't often translate the same as the TV experience. And it takes a bit to get used to and still "see" the action. The court-side angle is different than the at home TV angle.

Having seen Cook in person you get an appreciation for just how doggone FAST he is.... reacting in a blink. Having Tyus on the team has helped him immensely.

Tyus is deceptively quick, a good shooter, knows how to feed the post, and has great passing instincts.

I noticed Amile took and made a mid-range jumper. If the D has to honor that shot from him; its gonna be hard to double Jah. Amile had a nice game.

Jah took a bit of a tumble in the 2nd and played sparingly after that I though. Prolly a precaution as we head into next week. Army had more length than I expected and some good shooters. They played hard and were better than I thought. But ultimately they had NO answer for Jah... He is like water.... always flowing - relentless - wears opponents down. A true force of nature in the post.

Unlike MP3. Marshall brings a spastic, frenetic energy and he works very hard and enjoys himself. You can just tell by watching him play. Got good rebounds, made foul shots. Not the best hands or a natural leaper (at least in this game) I wonder what would happen if we played him and Jah at the same time? Would be nice to see MP3 play off Jah and get some easy opportunities.... I wonder if this would help him take off some of the nerves and let the game flow better to him.... Just a thought.

Sheed - At best he has an MJ kind of swagger... At worst he tends to channel Daniel Ewing and force the wrong thing at the wrong time. Hes still figuring his role on this team..

it was a fun trip. My son already wants to go to another game...

fuse
11-30-2014, 07:47 PM
I thought Sheed's defense and hustle were great today. His dribble drives are an adventure.

Sheed's dribbling reminds me more and more of Chris Carrawell. I mean that as a high compliment, although I doubt anyone would accuse either of being much more than unique to watch while still being effective.

sagegrouse
11-30-2014, 08:15 PM
Spike will be a major college head coach before long, and I would certainly entertain his replacing K at Duke in a few years. Of course, I've already mentally given the Duke job to Wojo.

Max Lennox, the subject of the SI article linked elsewhere, was recruited over by Spike and lost his starting job last year. A touching story and a savvy player. I thought his handle was a limitation, in addition to not being a shooter.

bbosbbos
11-30-2014, 08:21 PM
This is a good game since some flaws were exposed.

1. Winslow's early foul trouble gives him a warning. He needs to avoid that and stay in the game.

2. The old Cook is coming back to hurt us for > 3 times in this game. Why did he do that? I am quite disappointed at him.

3. MP3 committed several cheap fouls on small guards. He needs to watch the game tape again and again.

dukelifer
11-30-2014, 08:25 PM
Army looked good. They play hard, and have some shooters. Wouldn't be surprised to see them do well in their conference and they have shot IMO to be an NCAA Tournament team.

Tyus was terrific with 16 points, 10 assists, and 0 turnovers; Jahlil did his thing; Justise reminded us that these kids are freshmen and are capable of making mistakes (getting in foul trouble early in this case).

Army is a good disciplined team that did not beat themselves. They shot the ball well and were very effective driving to the basket. Duke played hard but I think they have another gear and I expect to see it on Wed. That said- Winslow was in foul trouble and Duke is not as good with him on the bench. Tyus is great passer and he makes everyone better. Duke, however, needs to shoot the three better against elite teams. This is an issue. Quinn has been very good but he was off today. Wed will be a very hard game for Duke to win. It is the first real road game and it is late at night against a very good and experienced opponent. There will be lots of game pressure throughout- and Duke may need to come back from double digits to win. The young guys will learn a lot- win or lose.

Saratoga2
11-30-2014, 09:28 PM
As others have indicated, Army is a good sized team who played very hard and they had some really good shooters. They will beat a lot of teams this year.

In general, we lost Justise due to foul trouble yet we got outstanding play from Jahlil, Tyus and Amile. I didn't see as much of an issue as others about Quinn's game. He is still playing well although he did force a couple of shots today. I also thought that Rasheed played closer to his potential. Having his size and athleticism on the floor is a help. He still plays a little out of control at times and could finish he shots more consistently, but I saw today's work as an improvement.

Coach K was able to get 10 deep some reasonable playing time and Grayson needs the experience while Semi looks a little better. I was pleased that Marshall seems to play with a lot of energy and to hit his free throw shots more often than his brothers used to. His form is really pretty good.

Small wonder we experienced some raggedness defensively, with all of the combinations which played together tonight. I am not all that worried about some of these breakdowns.

Going forward, we still aren't hitting the 3 point shots all that well and it may bite us against a team as good as Wisconsin. We also have 2 smallish guards who are at a disadvantage against bigger guards who can shoot the three over them. I think we will need our best game to beat Wisconsin. Will we get it with a hostile crowd and against the kind of experience we will face. It will be a fun game to watch.

Kedsy
11-30-2014, 09:55 PM
I didn't see the game. So this was this year's Vermont? Nicer to win that sort of game by 20 instead of by 1, right?

OldPhiKap
11-30-2014, 10:11 PM
I didn't see the game. So this was this year's Vermont? Nicer to win that sort of game by 20 instead of by 1, right?

Well, Vermont was something like 1-6 or 2-5 coming in IIRC. Army was 5-0. It is worth watching K's post-game presser on goduke.com, he talks about Army more than Duke. And you can tell that he means it.

I'll add that we won by 20, AND Justise hardly played. That third foul in the first half (hitting a guy taking a three point shot on the elbow) sent K into orbit; he called time out (or maybe it was a media TO) but K smacked the chalk board so hard you could hear it over the loudspeaker announcements. He was old-timey peeved.

I'll add this too -- Quinn drew main guard duty (Matt second) on the dude who lit us up in the first half. Both did a great job on defense, especially Quinn. And both gave up size to the Army man.

uh_no
11-30-2014, 10:19 PM
I didn't see the game. So this was this year's Vermont? Nicer to win that sort of game by 20 instead of by 1, right?

eh....we were bad on defense against vermont all game

we had them at a 90 efficiency with like 13 minutes left, when i'm assuming we either subbed a lot, or pretty much stepped off the gas. All in all, i think we performed fine....though i'm sure army means a lot to K, i can understand kids shutting it down up big with 15 minutes to go a few days after thanksgiving.

Ichabod Drain
11-30-2014, 11:00 PM
eh....we were bad on defense against vermont all game

we had them at a 90 efficiency with like 13 minutes left, when i'm assuming we either subbed a lot, or pretty much stepped off the gas. All in all, i think we performed fine....though i'm sure army means a lot to K, i can understand kids shutting it down up big with 15 minutes to go a few days after thanksgiving.

With 13 minutes to go we were only up by 11, 58-47

uh_no
11-30-2014, 11:59 PM
With 13 minutes to go we were only up by 11, 58-47

apologies, seems the times on scacc hoops are off! seems the time i was looking at actually corresponds to about 13:50, when we were up 58-41...

at that point we were running about a 90 defensive efficiency, which is about what would be expected against army, whose offense is just outside top 100...so not horrid. the rest of the way, though, we gave up 32 points in 23 possessions...which is good for an awful 140....

it's also coincidently what we gave up to vermont last year....for the entire game! so we had a poor stretch while up double digits? and there were a couple possessions they got it to 11? if that's the worst that happens....color me pink.

so even if the time was wrong, the point stands that at least IMO, we shut it down when we were up 17...they closed to 11 for a second, and then we pushed it right back to 19 a few possessions later....that's typical in the swing of games

there are things to worry about, but IMO, this game isn't one of them. (and this is coming from someone ever willing to criticize the team after blowout wins....)

Olympic Fan
12-01-2014, 12:40 AM
I was at the Vermont game last year and this was nothing like that -- that was a game that came down to the last possession.

Vermont shot 67 percent from the field and we forced just six turnovers.

Army shot 45.6 percent from the field and committed to 14 turnovers (which led to 27 Duke points).

And Army is a much better team than that Vermont team.

Not saying this was Duke's best defensive performance of the year, but it was a million times better than the Vermont game.

I think the defense was hurt by losing Justise for most of the game -- two aggressive fouls early going to the basket and one foolish one late in the first half when came back in and fouled a 3-point shooter.

Army made some nice plays and hit some tough shots, but Duke's defense bothered them for much of the game. Duke had nine steals -- and that's giving Tyus Jones just one -- I swear he knocked he ball loose at least half a dozen times -- the steals must have gone to the guys who came up with the balls he knocked loose. Okafor was only credited with one blocked shot, although he was hurt by Duke's stats crew, which is the only crew in the country that enforces the rule that if you block the shot while still in the shooters hand (as Okafor did at least twice), it doesn't count as a block. Still, whatever you call it, he bothered a bunch of shots inside.

Army's best player -- Kyle Wilson -- had 17 points in the first 17 minutes ... he had two free throws the rest of the way. He ended the game 6-of-16 from the floor. Tanner Plomb also had 10 and he was under 50 percent (7-for-16).

Again, not trying to say it was our best defensive effort of the season, but it would have been a top five defensive showing a year ago.

I like the Army team. I think they'll do well in their league. One thing that's interesting to me -- Army is one of three teams that's been a major college team since the NCAA Tournament began in 1939 that has never gotten a bid. Army, Northwestern and William & Mary (there are a bunch of johnny-come-lately Division 1 teams that haven't gotten bids). I wouldn't be shocked to see Army end that drought this year or next.

Also BTW, anybody notice that the kid who hit 2-of-3 free throws in the final second for Army's last two points was Sean Billerman, the son of former Duke point guard Kevin Billerman. Believe that he is a senior and those were his first career points.

One final PS. Army had 19 players in uniform (and two more in sweats who appeared to be injured players). I don't think I've ever seen that many players dressed out for a game at Cameron. Maybe one of Dean's teams in the '70s, when he had 15 scholarship guys and five walk-ons, but I can't remember for sure.

Kedsy
12-01-2014, 03:48 AM
I was at the Vermont game last year and this was nothing like that -- that was a game that came down to the last possession.

Well, that was kind of my point. With everyone complaining so much about our D, I would have expected much worse than a 20 point win.


And Army is a much better team than that Vermont team.

Vermont was rated #70 in the country by Pomeroy last season. Army is currently rated 151. While admittedly Pomeroy isn't worth too much this early, I'll be surprised if Army ends up rated as high as Vermont did, and shocked if they end up "much better."

Furniture
12-01-2014, 04:34 AM
There was a notable distinction in Dukes defense in this game. It's hard to argue that. However, once again when they got in front by double digits they kept it there fairly comfortably. Or maybe effectively would be a better word.
So not the teams best game this season but probably plenty of reasons why such as the midday day start? Thanks giving hangover?
Justises fouls?
But I seem to remember several games last year against easy opponents where the final result was much closer.

MChambers
12-01-2014, 08:39 AM
Sheed's dribbling reminds me more and more of Chris Carrawell. I mean that as a high compliment, although I doubt anyone would accuse either of being much more than unique to watch while still being effective.

I was noticing how much effort his dribbling seems to require, in contrast to T. Jones, who dribbles effortlessly.

Ichabod Drain
12-01-2014, 08:42 AM
And Army is a much better team than that Vermont team.



I'm not sure about that. Vermont ended up at 70th last year in Kenpom. As of now Army is sitting at 151. That could change by the end of the year but Vermont was top 100 in both offensive and defensive efficiency.

azzefkram
12-01-2014, 09:21 AM
A pretty ragged game all around. I can understand some of the concern about the defense. Army averaged over a point per possession which really shouldn't happen against a team of this caliber. That said, it is one game after a layoff and our best defender didn't play much or well for that matter. Throw in some wacky line combos and you sort of have a recipe for underperformance.

I still don't get the Quinn hate. Was it his best game? Nope. Did he take a questionable shot or two? Yep and so did Jah, Tyus, Grayson and Sheed. Guys take bad shots every game. Try to enjoy our senior captain.

I can't express how much I love putting a guy back in with 2 fouls in the first half. Of all the low reward, high risk moves out there it has to be my favorite.

On a final note, how is Marshall not playing 42 mins/gm? The Dude hasn't missed a shot in about 6 games and leads the team with an ORtg of 168. I think it's the stylin' new 'do.

CDu
12-01-2014, 09:23 AM
So... not a lot of chatter on this game... are we all in food comas?

I was able to watch the first 30 mins and thought Army was a talented opponent - probably the best outside of MSU.

Our guys looked sharp and when Army started strong, we hung in. When they cut it to 9, we responded.

Good early test.

I disagree with the bolded part. Army is not more talented than Stanford or Temple. That is a team that barely beat Saint Francis (NY), VMI, and Air Force (won those three games by a combined 15 points).

Army did play hard and they played very well. But we didn't play our best on either end of the floor, which made a well-organized Army team look better than they really are. It didn't help that we couldn't shoot 3s (4-19), which kept the game closer than it should have been.

Aside from Tyus Jones (who was terrific), I felt it was a pretty uninspiring effort from our guys. Which is understandable given the overmatched opponent and the looming game against Wisconsin ahead. Okafor put up big numbers against a wildly overmatched Army frontcourt and Jefferson was a menace on the boards (again, size and quality of opposing frontcourt factors in here). But other than that, it was a pretty "meh" game.

That's okay though. There wasn't much to gain from this game other than to stave off any rust and stay healthy for the big game on Wednesday. So mission accomplished.

Billy Dat
12-01-2014, 10:00 AM
-I think losing Justise right out of the gate was a major factor as the team had to deal with a significant disruption to "business as usual". In that way, i think it was a positive development, a different kind of challenge.

-Army was really scrappy, and I think we were surprised by how much they wanted to push the tempo. They threw in some well contested shots, but they also beat us upcourt for many easy shots.

-Tyus is a really interesting player in that he seems to only assert his full offensive chops if and when he senses that we need it. Otherwise, he is content to sit back and facilitate.

-I like our focus on getting Jah the ball. I think we need to keep devising more misdirection to get him the ball, like setting him up weak side and running some kind of distraction pick and roll action on the strong side that pulls the defenses attention away as he begins his post-up prior to a quick reversal and post feed. It often takes up too much shot clock trying to establish him as he's doubled.

I'm not sure where this leaves us as we head to Madison. I guess I'll hop over to that thread and see what kind of chatter is building up.

uh_no
12-01-2014, 10:01 AM
I still don't get the Quinn hate. Was it his best game? Nope. Did he take a questionable shot or two? Yep and so did Jah, Tyus, Grayson and Sheed. Guys take bad shots every game. Try to enjoy our senior captain.


one of these things is not like the other:

jahlil freshman
tyus freshman
quinn senior captain
grayson freshman
sheed junior

you would expect your senior captain guard to be one of the BEST decision makers on the team....what irks people is that it's a pattern that's plagued his career, especially in pressure situations....and just like when duke football has a bad play, when quinn makes a bad decision and jacks a three or calls his own number where it's uncalled for, people go "oh no...here we go again"

That said, i'm not too worried about it....he's played very well thus far this year, and appears much better suited playing off tyus rather than having the responsibility of running things the whole game.

Henderson
12-01-2014, 10:31 AM
On a final note, how is Marshall not playing 42 mins/gm? The Dude hasn't missed a shot in about 6 games and leads the team with an ORtg of 168. I think it's the stylin' new 'do.

Marshall still has trouble squeezing the ball sometimes, but he's probably the most improved player on the team this year. In the Army game, I noticed he was shooting his free throws quickly and hitting them. Like he'd been practicing or something. Money, money, gotta be the 'do.

CDu
12-01-2014, 11:13 AM
On a final note, how is Marshall not playing 42 mins/gm? The Dude hasn't missed a shot in about 6 games and leads the team with an ORtg of 168. I think it's the stylin' new 'do.

Just another fantastic example of how ORtg can be a horribly misleading statistic if not considered in context. That said, Plumlee has been a fantastic backup at C. Obviously he's no Jahlil Okafor, and as such his minutes are bound to be extremely limited. But he is filling the backup role admirably.

Ichabod Drain
12-01-2014, 11:35 AM
On a final note, how is Marshall not playing 42 mins/gm? The Dude hasn't missed a shot in about 6 games and leads the team with an ORtg of 168. I think it's the stylin' new 'do.

Not to mention he's our best 3pt shooter at 100% on the year.

UrinalCake
12-01-2014, 11:36 AM
I think you have to expect there to be down games in terms of effort throughout the season. We're coming off a holiday, with a weird early Sunday start, we've played a lot of games the last two weeks, most of the students weren't in the stands, Wisconsin is coming up, and our opponent wasn't expected to be competitive. So I'm willing to give the players a pass on a less-than-full-blown effort.

azzefkram
12-01-2014, 11:52 AM
Just another fantastic example of how ORtg can be a horribly misleading statistic if not considered in context. That said, Plumlee has been a fantastic backup at C. Obviously he's no Jahlil Okafor, and as such his minutes are bound to be extremely limited. But he is filling the backup role admirably.

Probably should have put a smiley face/wink after that as my tongue was firmly planted in my cheek when I typed that. I do think it's sort of fun that MPIII hasn't missed a shot since his first one.

azzefkram
12-01-2014, 11:53 AM
Not to mention he's our best 3pt shooter at 100% on the year.

And tied with Quinn as our best free throw shooter at 100%. Cats and dogs living together.

DevilYouthCoach
12-01-2014, 12:27 PM
one of these things is not like the other:

jahlil freshman
tyus freshman
quinn senior captain
grayson freshman
sheed junior

you would expect your senior captain guard to be one of the BEST decision makers on the team....what irks people is that it's a pattern that's plagued his career, especially in pressure situations....and just like when duke football has a bad play, when quinn makes a bad decision and jacks a three or calls his own number where it's uncalled for, people go "oh no...here we go again"

That said, i'm not too worried about it....he's played very well thus far this year, and appears much better suited playing off tyus rather than having the responsibility of running things the whole game.



Personally, I love Quinn's play and always have. Like all fine athletes, he is at his best when his confidence is high (but not so high that it gets him in trouble). Quinn is definitely not one of those deliberate and steady PGs. He is willing to take risks, and sometimes he overdoes it, but have you watched him drive through a string of 6'8" and 6'11" guys and sneak up a lay-up that goes in by virtue of the spin he puts on the ball? He is better at that move than anyone Duke has had in the last 50 years (the length of time I have been watching). AND he has a unique personality, as well as a passionate way of approaching the game -- full of positive energy. That's why he's one of the captains, and it's why Coach K is full of happy thoughts when he talks about him. Clearly Quinn loves to be surrounded by great players, which brings out his best. And he loves to be a leader, which seems to come natural to him. I see him as the heart of this team.

uh_no
12-01-2014, 12:51 PM
Personally, I love Quinn's play and always have. Like all fine athletes, he is at his best when his confidence is high (but not so high that it gets him in trouble). Quinn is definitely not one of those deliberate and steady PGs. He is willing to take risks, and sometimes he overdoes it, but have you watched him drive through a string of 6'8" and 6'11" guys and sneak up a lay-up that goes in by virtue of the spin he puts on the ball? He is better at that move than anyone Duke has had in the last 50 years (the length of time I have been watching). AND he has a unique personality, as well as a passionate way of approaching the game -- full of positive energy. That's why he's one of the captains, and it's why Coach K is full of happy thoughts when he talks about him. Clearly Quinn loves to be surrounded by great players, which brings out his best. And he loves to be a leader, which seems to come natural to him. I see him as the heart of this team.

well said.

CDu
12-01-2014, 12:55 PM
Probably should have put a smiley face/wink after that as my tongue was firmly planted in my cheek when I typed that. I do think it's sort of fun that MPIII hasn't missed a shot since his first one.

Oh I figured your post was facetious with the 42mpg remark. My comment was a reference to my mild disdain for ORtg (and more specifically folks misusing it in arguments) than a commentary on your post. Just happened to be your post probiding my opportunity to vent. :)

pfrduke
12-01-2014, 01:01 PM
I'm not sure about that. Vermont ended up at 70th last year in Kenpom. As of now Army is sitting at 151. That could change by the end of the year but Vermont was top 100 in both offensive and defensive efficiency.


Well, that was kind of my point. With everyone complaining so much about our D, I would have expected much worse than a 20 point win.



Vermont was rated #70 in the country by Pomeroy last season. Army is currently rated 151. While admittedly Pomeroy isn't worth too much this early, I'll be surprised if Army ends up rated as high as Vermont did, and shocked if they end up "much better."

Vermont was rated as #196 in the country at the time of the game. It jumped to just 164 after the Duke game and then steadily climbed the rankings as it laid waste to the America East.* If Army does to the Patriot League what Vermont did to the America East last year, it's pretty easy to foresee it ending up as high as Vermont. There's still plenty of movement to be had in the rankings.

*Laid waste is really an apt term. Of the 15 conference wins, 10 were by more than 20 and another 4 were by double digits. On the basis of all of those beatings it climbed from 131 the day conference play started to 56 when the regular season ended.

CDu
12-01-2014, 01:27 PM
Vermont was rated as #196 in the country at the time of the game. It jumped to just 164 after the Duke game and then steadily climbed the rankings as it laid waste to the America East.* If Army does to the Patriot League what Vermont did to the America East last year, it's pretty easy to foresee it ending up as high as Vermont. There's still plenty of movement to be had in the rankings.

*Laid waste is really an apt term. Of the 15 conference wins, 10 were by more than 20 and another 4 were by double digits. On the basis of all of those beatings it climbed from 131 the day conference play started to 56 when the regular season ended.

Yup. This highlights the ongoing debate about how good a job Pomeroy's rankings handle a team that blows out terrible teams (the "Wisconsin effect" issue). I don't think Vermont was nearly the 70th best team in the country last year. Any team that loses two games in the America East, loses to Qunnipeac and San Francisco and struggles to beat a D-2 Sonoma State (all of these games came after our game against them) should not be in the discussion of the top 20% of D-1 teams. I think that, in spite of Pomeroy's tinkering, he still had/has a kink in the formula with respect to this issue, and Vermont's resume is the example anomaly here.

I also don't know that Army is really in the top half of D-1 either. This further emphasizes your point that comparing Vermont's end-of-season Pomeroy ranking with Army's current Pomeroy ranking is pointless. We honestly have no idea whether Army (this year) is better or worse than Vermont (last year).

Regardless, I don't see any reason to compare the two games in an attempt to gain perspective about this team. Completely different opponents and completely different Duke teams, and completely different game flow. I don't think this performance against Army tells us much of anything with regard to the team's future. It was an aberrant performance in which our team was a bit flat and their team was on fire. Last year's team was bad defensively pretty much all year and that included the Vermont game. This year's team has been pretty good defensively all year and this just happened to not be our best effort.

mr. synellinden
12-01-2014, 02:08 PM
He is willing to take risks, and sometimes he overdoes it, but have you watched him drive through a string of 6'8" and 6'11" guys and sneak up a lay-up that goes in by virtue of the spin he puts on the ball? He is better at that move than anyone Duke has had in the last 50 years (the length of time I have been watching).

Not to be nitpicky - but there was a guy a few years ago who played only 7 games for Duke who not only was the best Duke player I've ever seen at finishing lay-ups by using spin, but the best player period I've ever seen. And as far as Duke players go, I think Duhon and Jason Williams were better at the skill you are citing than Quinn - not that he doesn't excel at it.

Getting back to the point, overdoing risk taking - which you acknowledge that Quinn does - is exactly the problem with his play that has been evident for much of his career, but had seemed toned down this season until yesterday. He took several bad shots that left the defense exposed or unprepared to rotate back and led to easy points (open three pointers or three point play opportunities). At all levels of basketball, shot selection is one of the most critical factors influencing team success, and we need our senior captain to lead by example in that regard. I don't think he did that yesterday.

duke09hms
12-01-2014, 02:42 PM
Not to be nitpicky - but there was a guy a few years ago who played only 7 games for Duke who not only was the best Duke player I've ever seen at finishing lay-ups by using spin, but the best player period I've ever seen.

Minor nitpick, Kyrie played 11 games at Duke. Very minor, but I suppose I'm tired of other people using that 11 games to say he doesn't count as a Duke player.

mr. synellinden
12-01-2014, 02:53 PM
Minor nitpick, Kyrie played 11 games at Duke. Very minor, but I suppose I'm tired of other people using that 11 games to say he doesn't count as a Duke player.

Yes, my mistake. I knew that and don't know why I wrote 7. Maybe because they rhyme. The point is still the same. Kyrie's ability to finish at the hoop is mesmerizing.

Edouble
12-01-2014, 02:53 PM
Not to be nitpicky - but there was a guy a few years ago who played only 7 games for Duke who not only was the best Duke player I've ever seen at finishing lay-ups by using spin, but the best player period I've ever seen. And as far as Duke players go, I think Duhon and Jason Williams were better at the skill you are citing than Quinn - not that he doesn't excel at it.

I'd back DevilYouthCoach and say that Quinn is easily the best, not even close. His ability to finish with beautiful english on the ball is a throwback to the 80s, maybe even the 60s/70s, before elite point guards played above the rim as they do today. I'd go as far as to say that Quinn's below the rim game necessitated his need to develop that skill, much more than JDub, Duhon, or Kyrie ever did.

CDu
12-01-2014, 02:53 PM
Not to be nitpicky - but there was a guy a few years ago who played only 7 games for Duke who not only was the best Duke player I've ever seen at finishing lay-ups by using spin, but the best player period I've ever seen. And as far as Duke players go, I think Duhon and Jason Williams were better at the skill you are citing than Quinn - not that he doesn't excel at it.

Getting back to the point, overdoing risk taking - which you acknowledge that Quinn does - is exactly the problem with his play that has been evident for much of his career, but had seemed toned down this season until yesterday. He took several bad shots that left the defense exposed or unprepared to rotate back and led to easy points (open three pointers or three point play opportunities). At all levels of basketball, shot selection is one of the most critical factors influencing team success, and we need our senior captain to lead by example in that regard. I don't think he did that yesterday.

I might quibble with the idea that Duhon was better at it than Cook. Duhon excelled at several things while at Duke, but I don't think that driving into traffic and spinning the ball off the glass was a particular gift of his. But I do agree with the overall tenor of your post. Irving (though he only played 1/3 of a season for Duke) was the best I've seen at this skill in my lifetime (which equates roughly to the Coach K era). And I'd put Williams at/near the top of the list of almost any offensive skill for a Duke PG.

But I think Cook has a terrific ability to hit tough layups. In previous years, though, I would also marvel at the frequency with which he'd miss relatively "easy" layups. He does at times have poor shot selection. In past years (when his role was to run the offense) that was a big problem. But I think part of his role on this team is to be a guy who takes big pressure shots, even if they sometimes aren't in the flow of the game. Senior leadership can come in many forms. For some, it's being a steadying influence (like Dawkins, Duhon, Scheyer, Grant Hill, and Battier were). For others, it's to be the guy who leads with passion and moxie and by taking the tough shots (like Redick and Laettner and - though less successful at it - Paulus). Cook seems to fall more in the second category. Which is why his move to a SG/PG role instead of PG is probably for the best.

mr. synellinden
12-01-2014, 03:30 PM
I'd back DevilYouthCoach and say that Quinn is easily the best, not even close. His ability to finish with beautiful english on the ball is a throwback to the 80s, maybe even the 60s/70s, before elite point guards played above the rim as they do today. I'd go as far as to say that Quinn's below the rim game necessitated his need to develop that skill, much more than JDub, Duhon, or Kyrie ever did.

Some evidence (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cK9rLOQaAfw) for consideration.

AncientPsychicT
12-01-2014, 05:49 PM
there was a guy a few years ago who played only 7 games for Duke who not only was the best Duke player I've ever seen at finishing lay-ups by using spin, but the best player period I've ever seen.

I disagree.


Some evidence (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cK9rLOQaAfw) for consideration.

This guy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvwXLsCHv5w) is even better.

DukieInBrasil
12-02-2014, 12:15 PM
Some evidence (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cK9rLOQaAfw) for consideration.

What really impressed me about Kyrie finishing at the rim was his dexterity, finishing with his left or right hand. The video you posted however, shows no plays in which Kyrie used english on the ball to finish at the rim. He was definitely a below the rim player at Duke, and still is i guess in the NBA, but his dexterity and body control are what allowed him to make tough shots, not spin.

mr. synellinden
12-02-2014, 12:35 PM
What really impressed me about Kyrie finishing at the rim was his dexterity, finishing with his left or right hand. The video you posted however, shows no plays in which Kyrie used english on the ball to finish at the rim. He was definitely a below the rim player at Duke, and still is i guess in the NBA, but his dexterity and body control are what allowed him to make tough shots, not spin.

I guess we have a different definition of what using spin means then because I counted at least 10 layups in that video which showed how Kyrie adeptly used spin off the glass -- using his left and right hands.

subzero02
12-02-2014, 12:52 PM
The spin cycle was definitely in effect in that video... Oh what could've been; 1 more title for us and 1 fewer for UCONN.

Billy Dat
12-02-2014, 02:45 PM
Here's Kyrie from Team USA training camp talking about how he developed his array of lay-up spins via one of the most basic drills in bball history - The Mikan Drill

http://www.usab.com/basketball/media/videos/2014/07/kyrie-irving-on-the-art-of-the-layup.aspx

flyingdutchdevil
12-03-2014, 12:46 PM
Yeah, the dude loves English: http://www.nba.com/games/20141202/MILCLE/gameinfo.html?ls=slt

Edouble
12-03-2014, 01:14 PM
I guess we have a different definition of what using spin means then because I counted at least 10 layups in that video which showed how Kyrie adeptly used spin off the glass -- using his left and right hands.

I agree with DukeInBrasil. In the video, Kyrie made layups and tough finishes, but he doesn't use more english around the rim than the next guy. Quinn's english is at a whole other level. Kyrie is one of the best finishers in basketball, but the ball itself probably rotates half as many times on his toughest layups as it does when Quinn is attacking the rim.