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Class of '94
11-24-2014, 12:00 PM
This is breaking news from Steve Wiseman of the Herald Sun. You can read the following link and see Wiseman's twitter timeline.
http://www.heraldsun.com/breakingnews/x761893770/UNC-celebration-damages-Duke-locker-room

Airowe is also retweeting Steve Wiseman's tweets on this as well.

Real Classy UNC......Sorry Wheat; but crap like this really bothers me. I know they're kids but the lack of respect and the sheer arrogance to do something like this epitomizes for me the new "Carolina Way"....

I cannot wait for next season. If this doesn't reignite the fire in the Duke football team to not only end strong this season but to go to Chapel Hill next season and give payback, nothing will.

BTW, GO WOLFPACK this Saturday!!!!

Reilly
11-24-2014, 12:08 PM
We all already knew Carolina is classless. Oh, you mean the other definition? Yeah, well, we've known that all along, too.

Native
11-24-2014, 12:10 PM
Real Classy UNC......Sorry Wheat; but crap like this really bothers me. I know they're kids but the lack of respect and the sheer arrogance to do something like this epitomizes for me the new "Carolina Way"....

Blah blah blah, Duke is a bunch of smarmy elitist rich kids from New Jersey, something something something, elitism, something something something, the rules don't apply to them.

83and86
11-24-2014, 12:11 PM
Don't forget the lone comment on the article (so far) from your typical classy UNC fan: "Money well spent UNC, Go Heels!" The UNC fanbase just never ceases to amaze me in their classlessness. I've never felt this way before, but I see so many similarities to the Kentucky fanbase.

Devil in the Blue Dress
11-24-2014, 12:18 PM
I don't know which is more disturbing..... (1) That football players did this. (2) That coaches had no control over players' behavior after the game. (3) That there was no acknowledgement, apology, etc. until after the vandalism was discovered by Duke officials.

I think of the phrase lack of institutional controls and oversight.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-24-2014, 12:21 PM
This is breaking news from Steve Wiseman of the Herald Sun. You can read the following link and see Wiseman's twitter timeline.
http://www.heraldsun.com/breakingnews/x761893770/UNC-celebration-damages-Duke-locker-room

Airowe is also retweeting Steve Wiseman's tweets on this as well.

Real Classy UNC......Sorry Wheat; but crap like this really bothers me. I know they're kids but the lack of respect for property and the sheer arrogance to do something like this epitomizes for me the new "Carolina Way"....

I cannot wait for next season. If this doesn't reignite the fire in the Duke football team to not only end strong this season but to go to Chapel Hill next season and give payback, nothing will.

I wouldn't let it get to you, but I understand why it does.

Can't say seeing stories like this ever surprise me anymore, no matter what schools are involved...seems this sort of stuff happens all the time. Hyped up kids do stupid things. Especially football players. (They did the same things when I was in school, too).

From what I read it sounds like UNC is saying the right things, taking full responsibility, the appropriate actions, and has made the appropriate apologies.

As they should.

HK Dukie
11-24-2014, 12:23 PM
http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/11930227/unc-celebration-damages-duke-locker-room

ESPN article on same topic.

UNC will pay for the damages but I ask you.....

Wouldn't the better punishment be to have the players clean up their own mess?

Wheat/"/"/"
11-24-2014, 12:25 PM
http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/11930227/unc-celebration-damages-duke-locker-room


Wouldn't the better punishment be to have the players clean up their own mess?

Good idea. I'd have no problem with that.

davekay1971
11-24-2014, 12:27 PM
It will be very easy for Fedora and Bubba to find out which players brought and used the spray paint, and suspend them for their next game. And I think we can rest assured that adherence to The Carolina Way will induce Bubba and Larry to do just that.

Oh wait, never mind.

grad_devil
11-24-2014, 12:27 PM
From what I read it sounds like UNC is saying the right things, taking full responsibility, the appropriate actions, and has made the appropriate apologies.

As they should.

Maybe they've finally learned that the 'duck, dodge, deflect' defense doesn't work. If only they could go back and use the 'take full responsibility and fix it approach' for the academic/athletic scandal.

FerryFor50
11-24-2014, 12:28 PM
I wouldn't let it get to you, but I understand why it does.

Can't say seeing stories like this ever surprise me anymore, no matter what schools are involved...seems this sort of stuff happens all the time. Hyped up kids do stupid things. Especially football players. (They did the same things when I was in school, too).

From what I read it sounds like UNC is saying the right things, taking full responsibility, the appropriate actions, and has made the appropriate apologies.

As they should.

Well at least they've learned something from the academic scandal. Admit and apologize only for things that can't cost your athletic dept anything... ;)

allenmurray
11-24-2014, 12:29 PM
It was not vandalism - it was the final project for a visual arts course designed for UNC athletes. AT&T involved got an "A".

(Stolen from Herald-Sun comments)

devildeac
11-24-2014, 12:29 PM
Unsubstantiated rumor is that one of the phrases that was spray-painted was:

"This is are bell."

:rolleyes:

Tom B.
11-24-2014, 12:33 PM
.


I did get a chuckle from this missive in the comments below the Herald Sun article:




"The UNC office of the chancellor confirmed that after an investigation, each student athlete would receive six arts credits for the work."

allenmurray
11-24-2014, 12:33 PM
.seems this sort of stuff happens all the time.
.

The old "everybody else does it too". As a patent I never once let my kids use that excuse. Given the current state of affairs at UNC you would think they might show just a touch of self-awareness. Further proof of an atmosphere of entitlement

arnie
11-24-2014, 12:34 PM
I wouldn't let it get to you, but I understand why it does.

Can't say seeing stories like this ever surprise me anymore, no matter what schools are involved...seems this sort of stuff happens all the time. Hyped up kids do stupid things. Especially football players. (They did the same things when I was in school, too).

From what I read it sounds like UNC is saying the right things, taking full responsibility, the appropriate actions, and has made the appropriate apologies.

As they should.

I don't think Carolina is saying the right things. They're implying that overspray from painting the bell caused the damage. From the article, the idiots sprayed and damaged the locker room on purpose. The Cunningham/Fedora/Williams triumvirate can't stop lying even when they don't need to. What an awful way to lead college kids through life.

CDu
11-24-2014, 12:39 PM
I wouldn't let it get to you, but I understand why it does.

Is that what you tell your neighbor when some kid breaks his mailbox?


Can't say seeing stories like this ever surprise me anymore, no matter what schools are involved...seems this sort of stuff happens all the time. Hyped up kids do stupid things. Especially football players. (They did the same things when I was in school, too).

"Everybody does it." The new "Carolina Way." No longer is it all about "we do things the right way unlike everyone else," it's "when we do things the wrong way, it's just like everyone else does."


From what I read it sounds like UNC is saying the right things, taking full responsibility, the appropriate actions, and has made the appropriate apologies.

As they should.

The appropriate action would be to have the kids who did it go in and do the repairs themselves, and have them do the apologizing. Heck, it sure didn't sound like Fedora was apologetic in his press conference today, saying "kids get excited sometimes."

83and86
11-24-2014, 12:43 PM
It was not vandalism - it was the final project for a visual arts course designed for UNC athletes. AT&T involved got an "A".

(Stolen from Herald-Sun comments)

This is an academic scandal, not an athletic scandal. Nothing to see here. Move along and let's get past this.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-24-2014, 12:58 PM
"Everybody does it." The new "Carolina Way." No longer is it all about "we do things the right way unlike everyone else," it's "when we do things the wrong way, it's just like everyone else does."

Saying "this sort of stuff happens all the time" is an observation, not an excuse. No need to try and put "words in my mouth" to suit your narrative.


The appropriate action would be to have the kids who did it go in and do the repairs themselves, and have them do the apologizing.

Again, good idea.

Dr. Rosenrosen
11-24-2014, 01:04 PM
I wouldn't let it get to you, but I understand why it does.

Can't say seeing stories like this ever surprise me anymore, no matter what schools are involved...seems this sort of stuff happens all the time. Hyped up kids do stupid things. Especially football players. (They did the same things when I was in school, too).

From what I read it sounds like UNC is saying the right things, taking full responsibility, the appropriate actions, and has made the appropriate apologies.

As they should.
Right. Act irresponsibly. Then issue apologies. It's perfectly fine. Cause that's how everyone else does it.

chaosmage
11-24-2014, 01:07 PM
/rant

If everyone does it, when has Duke done it? Has FSU done it? Bama? Or do we just not hear about it because DSPN? Interesting that this hit Sportscenter on my phone, but I still don't see anything up about the academic scandal.

Not attempting to be snarky; just really gets my goat that the publication of this but not other things is ok. Let's talk about Duke complaining about their locker room, but let's not talk about 18 years of cheating.

/endrant

Class of '94
11-24-2014, 01:07 PM
Blah blah blah, Duke is a bunch of smarmy elitist rich kids from New Jersey, something something something, elitism, something something something, the rules don't apply to them.

I know all Hell would break out if the Duke football players had done that to UNC facilities. I feel strongly it would've received more national attention than what UNC has received; but because they did it to Duke, I can see people saying things like "Oh well, they deserve it".

I too am in agreement that if UNC was really sorry, Fedora and Cunnigham would've had the players responsible cleaning their own mess up as opposed to paying someone else. I didn't hear the Fedora's press conference; but if he tried to downplay it by saying kids get excited, then I've lost respect for Fedora. Coach Cut wouldn't have said something like that. If anything, he would've suspended the players responsible and still had them cleanup their own mess imo.

And better yet, why didn't Fedora have the players responsible call or showup in-person to personally apologize to Coach Cut; and then have them cleanup the mess?

Tripping William
11-24-2014, 01:16 PM
The appropriate action would be to have the kids who did it go in and do the repairs themselves, and have them do the apologizing. Heck, it sure didn't sound like Fedora was apologetic in his press conference today, saying "kids get excited sometimes."

But that would risk getting paint stains on their ACC Coastal Championship rings.

Lid
11-24-2014, 01:19 PM
Saying "this sort of stuff happens all the time" is an observation, not an excuse.
I'll readily admit I only follow the ACC heavily, so maybe I'm missing some news. If you're asserting/observing that it happens all the time, would you mind providing some links? I googled and found a $500 incident from Western Michigan (http://www.ngngsports.com/2014/10/western-michigan-football-team-caused-500-in-damages-to-idahos-locker-room.html) (“As you will see the locker room was left quite messy,” UI Athletic Director Rob Spear wrote to Kathy Beauregard, the director of athletics at Western Michigan."). In a cute twist, the victimized locker room belonged to the Idaho Vandals. Also, there's a high school coach who vandalized his own team's locker room (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2507992/Tennessee-high-school-football-coach-vandalized-OWN-locker-room-team.html) in a (failed) attempt to fire them up for a game. Not much else is popping up, but the aforementioned Idaho Vandals do clog up the search results.

Looking forward to finding out that this is, actually, very common. Because from where I'm sitting right now, it seems like the other definition of "common" applies instead.

UrinalCake
11-24-2014, 01:23 PM
Andrew Carter ‏@_andrewcarter · 25s26 seconds ago
Larry says no players will be disciplined b/c of the spray paint incident. Says he wished celebration hadn't gotten out of hand but it did.

Pretty much sums things up right there. I'm sure he "wishes" that decades of mass institutional fraud had never happened too, but.... oh, well.

Duvall
11-24-2014, 01:25 PM
From what I read it sounds like UNC is saying the right things, taking full responsibility, the appropriate actions, and has made the appropriate apologies.

This is, of course, completely false. (https://mobile.twitter.com/_andrewcarter/status/536927001962360832?p=v)

Reilly
11-24-2014, 01:27 PM
... it sure didn't sound like Fedora was apologetic in his press conference today, saying "kids get excited sometimes."

Kids do get excited sometimes. And half-wits act infantile. And jackasses act like jackasses. All true statements.

OldPhiKap
11-24-2014, 01:27 PM
This is, of course, completely false. (https://mobile.twitter.com/_andrewcarter/status/536927001962360832?p=v)

The responses below the tweet are priceless.

devildeac
11-24-2014, 01:28 PM
Pretty much sums things up right there. I'm sure he "wishes" that decades of mass institutional fraud had never happened too, but.... oh, well.

"Meet the new boss.
Same as the old boss."

OldPhiKap
11-24-2014, 01:30 PM
Kids do get excited sometimes. And half-wits act infantile. And jackasses act like jackasses. All true statements.

"Well, he went down to dinner in his Sunday best
Excitable boy, they all said
And he rubbed the pot roast all over his chest
Excitable boy, they all said
Well, he's just an excitable boy

"He took in the four a.m. show at the Clark
Excitable boy, they all said
And he bit the usherette's leg in the dark
Excitable boy, they all said
Well, he's just an excitable boy

"He took little Suzie to the Junior Prom
Excitable boy, they all said
And he raped her and killed her, then he took her home
Excitable boy, they all said
Well, he's just an excitable boy

"After ten long years they let him out of the home
Excitable boy, they all said
And he dug up her grave and built a cage with her bones
Excitable boy, they all said
Well, he's just an excitable boy"

-- Warren Zevon

jimsumner
11-24-2014, 01:30 PM
Saying "this sort of stuff happens all the time" is an observation, not an excuse. No need to try and put "words in my mouth" to suit your narrative.



Again, good idea.

No it's not an observation. It's an opinion, unless backed up with facts, none of which I have seen.

And in the absence of corroborating evidence, it absolutely is an excuse.

weezie
11-24-2014, 01:37 PM
What's the big deal?! MORONS WILL BE MORONS AFTER ALL.

devildeac
11-24-2014, 01:39 PM
IANAL, but here's something defining vandalism or Willful and Wanton Injury to Property:

http://www.criminalpropertydamage.com/north-carolina/


Hmmm, class 1 or 2 misdemeanors which carry sentences of up to 1 year in jail.

Maybe Duke and the Durham PD should pursue this a bit further...


The c*rolina way my arse.

Danke Shane
11-24-2014, 01:44 PM
IANAL, but here's something defining vandalism or Willful and Wanton Injury to Property:

http://www.criminalpropertydamage.com/north-carolina/


Hmmm, class 1 or 2 misdemeanors which carry sentences of up to 1 year in jail.

Maybe Duke and the Durham PD should pursue this a bit further...


The c*rolina way my arse.

Looks like vandalism > $5k in damages is elevated to a class 1 felony...

http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/stories/2008/09/08/focus2.html?page=all

Wheat/"/"/"
11-24-2014, 01:49 PM
No it's not an observation. It's an opinion, unless backed up with facts, none of which I have seen.

And in the absence of corroborating evidence, it absolutely is an excuse.

http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2014-02-19/duke-vs-north-carolina-rivalry-vandalism-south-building-chancellor-provost-nc-state

Exhibit 1.

I don't excuse or condone any of this stuff.

mpj96
11-24-2014, 01:56 PM
The intent of the conduct was to get the goat of Duke fans. Don't let it. Just charge UNC a premium for the repairs and move on.

Duvall
11-24-2014, 02:11 PM
http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2014-02-19/duke-vs-north-carolina-rivalry-vandalism-south-building-chancellor-provost-nc-state

Exhibit 1.

I don't excuse or condone any of this stuff.

Please tell me you are not equating vandalism by fans with vandalism by visiting players representing their school, under the supervision of, and exhortation by, coaches and staff. I know you don't have much respect for us, but I hoped it was more respect than *that.*

Wheat/"/"/"
11-24-2014, 02:15 PM
Please tell me you are not equating vandalism by fans with vandalism by visiting players representing their school, under the supervision of, and exhortation by, coaches and staff. I know you don't have much respect for us, but I hoped it was more respect than *that.*

The only point I made was college kids do this stuff all the time...and that I don't excuse it or condone it.

Reilly
11-24-2014, 02:22 PM
... college kids do this stuff all the time ...

Hmmm, guess it depends on what "this stuff" means.

Do college kids vandalize property? Yes, probably happens on nearly every campus, often when drinking.

Do college kids spray paint their school's name in the locker room when on the road after a contest? I've never heard of such a low-class move, ever.

OldPhiKap
11-24-2014, 02:28 PM
Hmmm, guess it depends on what "this stuff" means.

Do college kids vandalize property? Yes, probably happens on nearly every campus, often when drinking.

Do college kids spray paint their school's name in the locker room when on the road after a contest? I've never heard of such a low-class move, ever.

Even Maryland did not stoop to that level.

Let THAT sink in for a moment.

oldnavy
11-24-2014, 02:29 PM
How does this happen?

It happens when the culture of a program is such that the normal rules of behavior do not apply.

Wheat, I'm sorry but this doesn't happen all the time. Individual players do stupid things all the time, but this was a group effort. We are not talking about "college students" we are talking about a team traveling together that is supposedly under adult supervision. If they feel free to behave like this while on "official business" I wonder what types of things they feel free to do when the coaching staff is out of sight?

Fedora has established (or perpetuated) a climate at UNC where this type of thing can happen. Where is the supervision of this program??

UNC has lost national respect for the "academic" scandal, and now they are basking in the glow of thuggish activity from an underachieving football program...

GO HEELS!

brevity
11-24-2014, 02:30 PM
The only point I made was college kids do this stuff all the time...and that I don't excuse it or condone it.

Yeah, painters gonna paint.

jimsumner
11-24-2014, 02:32 PM
http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2014-02-19/duke-vs-north-carolina-rivalry-vandalism-south-building-chancellor-provost-nc-state

Exhibit 1.

I don't excuse or condone any of this stuff.

I guess I missed the part where members of the Duke football team committed the vandalism.

We're not talking about vandalism in general. We're talking about a specific incident of vandalism involving scholarship athletes representing their university.

And "all the time" is a pretty high threshold to prove.

oldnavy
11-24-2014, 02:37 PM
I guess I missed the part where members of the Duke football team committed the vandalism.

We're not talking about vandalism in general. We're talking about a specific incident of vandalism involving scholarship athletes representing their university.

And "all the time" is a pretty high threshold to prove.

Jim,
I may be preaching to the choir, but Wheat's comments are typical of the UNC mindset... they TRULY believe that UNC can do no wrong.... even when caught doing wrong red handed, they dismiss it as nothing to see, everyone does it, yada... yada... yada.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the mess going on with the fake classes, but you have to wonder how the NCAA investigator will process this additional display by UNC of having little to zero control over their players, even when they are in a controlled environment such as a visiting locker room, with staff present.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-24-2014, 02:38 PM
Lighten up folks. Is it annoying? Yes. Is it classy? No.

Would we give a single rip about it if we had one the game and kept spray paint out of the hands of the Tar Heels players to begin with?

BigWayne
11-24-2014, 02:44 PM
Vandalism >$5K in NC is a felony (http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/stories/2008/09/08/focus2.html)
Note that this law was sponsored in the legislature by Robert Grady who has a BA in History from UNC-CH.

Duvall
11-24-2014, 02:44 PM
Lighten up folks. Is it annoying? Yes. Is it classy? No.

Would we give a single rip about it if we had one the game and kept spray paint out of the hands of the Tar Heels players to begin with?

There's no point in getting angry about any of this - this is who UNC is, and who they teach their athletes to be. No game result would change that. That doesn't mean we can't be appropriately scornful of attempts to BS us.

DieHard
11-24-2014, 02:50 PM
I suggest Duke keeps the locker rooms locked and unavailable for the UNC athletes for the rest of the year. It is an 8 mile drive. Come dressed to play. ;)

El_Diablo
11-24-2014, 02:51 PM
The silver lining to this is that it highlights what losers the Tar Heels really are. For most of the UNC team (players who entered "school" in 2012, 2013 or 2014), this was their first win against Duke, and this type of behavior demonstrates that they simply don't know how to handle success. Pathetic, really.

Class of '94
11-24-2014, 02:59 PM
The intent of the conduct was to get the goat of Duke fans. Don't let it. Just charge UNC a premium for the repairs and move on.

I hear what you're saying and agree to an extent. I respect the fact that UNC will pay in full to cleanup the mess. However, what really bothers me about this is how much is an apology an apology when you don't discipline the persons responsible for causing thousands of dollars in damage? IMO, the apologies of Fedora and Cunningham seem insincere when they (Fedora) publicly try to downplay the UNC players' actions and and no one is punished for their actions.

I know it's been reported that Fedora and Cunningham called Cut and Kevin White to apologize; but it hasn't been reported if their apologies were accepted. I'm sure both did the gracious thing and accepted; but I sure would love to know if privately they are seething over this, especially after hearing that no one will be punished. As much pride as Cut takes in the Duke football program, I wouldn't be surprised if he and the players are upset about his; and I can see Cut using this as a teaching moment to say "Fellas, this is what happens when you don't focus on taking care of the details and bringing the fight, you get beat by a bunch of classless idiots. And if you're mad and upset, Good! Now what are you are going to do about it? And let's not let this ever happen again!"

Being at a distance, it's been hard for me to come to the games; however, I'm relocating back to Durham with my family; and I, along with my family, will be at the Duke home games next year and the UNC-Duke game in Chapel Hill. I realize I need to step up my game to support the program; and if I can swing it, I'm going to go to their bowl game this year too. This situation makes me realize we and the Duke program have to keep moving forward to earn respect; otherwise, crap like this will happen again.

PackMan97
11-24-2014, 03:05 PM
I suggest Duke keeps the locker rooms locked and unavailable for the UNC athletes for the rest of the year. It is an 8 mile drive. Come dressed to play. ;)

This is the correct answer. Inform the Tar Heels that they are denied access to facilities due to fears that other teams will damage their locker rooms.

Tripping William
11-24-2014, 03:09 PM
I suggest Duke keeps the locker rooms locked and unavailable for the UNC athletes for the rest of the year. It is an 8 mile drive. Come dressed to play. ;)

From your lips to K's ears.

BD80
11-24-2014, 03:18 PM
I wouldn't let it get to you, but I understand why it does.

Can't say seeing stories like this ever surprise me anymore, no matter what schools are involved...seems this sort of stuff happens all the time. Hyped up kids do stupid things. Especially football players. (They did the same things when I was in school, too).

From what I read it sounds like UNC is saying the right things, taking full responsibility, the appropriate actions, and has made the appropriate apologies.

As they should.




Andrew Carter ‏@_andrewcarter
Larry says no players will be disciplined b/c of the spray paint incident. Says he wished celebration hadn't gotten out of hand but it did.

Pretty much sums things up right there. I'm sure he "wishes" that decades of mass institutional fraud had never happened too, but.... oh, well.

No disciplinary action? Inconceivable!

Wait, maybe that word doesn't mean what I think it means ...

How many Coaches, assistants, administrators travel with the team? Particularly on the 8 mile trip to their arch rival?

The spray painting began immediately after the game, changing the color of the victory bell. I'll bet Bubba was even there for a feel good moment after the crap he has been taking.

Things got out of hand - WHILE THE ADULTS WERE PRESENT! That's why they can't discipline the players, the coaching staff condoned (participated in?) the actions!

Who specifically was there, I can't say but I am confident at least one member of the staff or administration knew what was happening and chose not to act.

Kids spray painting a building? Vandalism, if you catch them prosecute. A visiting football program vandalizing a host school? Something has to be done.

Reilly
11-24-2014, 03:20 PM
Even Maryland did not stoop to that level.

Let THAT sink in for a moment.

Well, I think the aerosol paint cans were left on the couch to give the blaze a little extra pop.

BD80
11-24-2014, 03:22 PM
How come there was so much spray paint available for so much vandalism? Some administrator was in charge of bringing paint to repaint the victory bell, did he just decide to order extra, or did one of the coaches suggest that it might be fun for the kids to have extra spray paint?

Duvall
11-24-2014, 03:24 PM
Even Maryland did not stoop to that level.

Let THAT sink in for a moment.

Maryland's players and coaches have, for the most part, shown respect for Duke.

Stray Gator
11-24-2014, 03:28 PM
The fact that Coach Fedora has stated that no UNC players will be disciplined for this vandalism negates any suggestion that the apology was sincere, rather than merely a disdainful shrug towards perceived obligatory courtesies. If Duke players did something like this, I believe there would be widespread shock and justifiable condemnation; and we would certainly expect Coach Cut to require that the perpetrators clean up the mess themselves. But this kind of behavior by UNC athletes surprises no one anymore. In the style that has now become customary for UNC, the school will simply throw money at the problem by compensating the victim, mumble a few half-hearted acknowledgements that "mistakes were made, everybody does it, we've fixed the problem, let's move on," and chuckle privately about how great they are to be able to piss on the rules with impunity.

As an alumnus and fan of both Duke and Florida, I was long accustomed to a college football universe in which the ACC, at least as a matter of public perception, held the high road over the SEC in terms of academic reputation, institutional integrity, and an image of fair play and good sportsmanship. It's remarkable how quickly but effectively UNC and FSU are managing to turn that universe on its head by enabling the hooliganism of their athletes rather than teaching them to act responsibly and show respect for others.

cspan37421
11-24-2014, 03:29 PM
How come there was so much spray paint available for so much vandalism? Some administrator was in charge of bringing paint to repaint the victory bell, did he just decide to order extra, or did one of the coaches suggest that it might be fun for the kids to have extra spray paint?

I think there's a lot of paint b/c many players want a shot at painting it. And there are a lot of players ... as well as others.

I'm a lot less concerned about the wet paint from the bell bumping against a door jamb as I am about players spraying "UNC" on locker room and facility walls in the presence of coaches, and coaches doing nothing about it, admitting nothing until confronted. And then, not disciplining the players involved or making them part of the cleanup crew.

While I can't know for absolutely certain what Cutcliffe would do if Duke players did this, I would not want a coach who would give them a pass and just have someone else pay for it. And I very much doubt Cut would do that. About the only other coach I can imagine being so craven is Jimbo Fisher. All in the ACC family, right?

hurleyfor3
11-24-2014, 03:42 PM
I almost want to leave it the way it is, to let visiting schools know what unc people are really like.

jipops
11-24-2014, 03:58 PM
well, yea...kids do dumb things all the time. Isn't that a convenient explanation for just about every transgression committed? Given the current climate at UNC over the past few years, wouldn't one think that coaches would be saying to their players something like..."hey, you know all those dumb things college kids tend to do all the time... really make a sincere effort not to do them. We're in a mess, it's our fault, but we need you to represent us in a dignified way." I believe we can safely say that a discussion of this type has not taken place at UNC. Is anyone surprised?

Tripping William
11-24-2014, 04:01 PM
Yep, good ol' SI is blaming "errant paint."

http://www.si.com/college-football/2014/11/24/north-carolina-apologizes-duke-damages-celebration-victory-bell

So "errant," it results in "UNC" ending up on the walls. What a coincidence *that* is!

Also, note that SI is reporting the earlier "$10,000" total for the repairs. The Durham Herald Sun article has been edited to say the damage is estimated to exceed $25K.

DukieInKansas
11-24-2014, 04:20 PM
When Duke took it back this last time, the team managers had the correct shade of blue spray paint ready to go and it was painted on the field. However, that was at home. Don't know what would have been done if it had occurred at Kenan. ESPN did show people by the unc equipment trucks shaking the spray paint cans so they could be used to paint the bell this past game.

When you spray paint, there is going to be paint that misses the intended target and gets areas around it painted. If the spray had gone on natural grass that would grow out, that is one thing. The visiting team should be aware of where they can spray paint without unintended damage. And, if the reports of writing on walls in spray paint is correct, that is not unintended damage. That is intentional and disrespectful to the host school.

DukeSean
11-24-2014, 04:27 PM
When you spray paint, there is going to be paint that misses the intended target and gets areas around it painted. If the spray had gone on natural grass that would grow out, that is one thing. The visiting team should be aware of where they can spray paint without unintended damage. And, if the reports of writing on walls in spray paint is correct, that is not unintended damage. That is intentional and disrespectful to the host school.

Which is why none of the story/apology is adding up for anyone with half a brain (i.e., non-UNC fans).

Unintentional spray paint on walls in the letters UNC?
Coaches didn't see/stop them and was just athletes getting carried away but no punishment for any individual player?

It's about as imaginative as a AFAM paper.

alteran
11-24-2014, 04:31 PM
http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/11930227/unc-celebration-damages-duke-locker-room

ESPN article on same topic.

UNC will pay for the damages but I ask you.....

Wouldn't the better punishment be to have the players clean up their own mess?

Sure, but by the time we got past the usual UNC stonewalling, blathering that FERPA meant they couldn't say anything, etc., the paint would have been there for 7 or 8 years. Not worth it.

alteran
11-24-2014, 04:39 PM
http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2014-02-19/duke-vs-north-carolina-rivalry-vandalism-south-building-chancellor-provost-nc-state

Exhibit 1.

I don't excuse or condone any of this stuff.

Random folks spraying graffittis = football players spray painting with coaches in proximity.

Got it.

Seriously, I think some of the reaction is a tad overblown, but this comparison is pretty ridiculous.

conmanlhughes
11-24-2014, 04:42 PM
After some basic perusing of Twitter, I found this:
4537
You can clearly see the blue stains on the floor of the locker room.
4538
You have to wonder why those UNC players still have spray paint cans in their hands. The bell looks somewhat dry, so I don't believe it was fresh spraying of the bell.... Prime suspects 1 and 2 right there.

Bob Green
11-24-2014, 04:58 PM
The bell looks somewhat dry...

Really? Exactly how does the bell look dry? Or wet? Or somewhere in between? I'm not a paint expert but the ability to determine whether paint is wet or dry from a picture seems unlikely. Perhaps I am wrong...

Chicken Little
11-24-2014, 05:07 PM
Maryland's players and coaches have, for the most part, shown respect for Duke.

If UNC supporters can't understand why this vandalism is so disrespectful, this statement alone should stand out as an "a-ha" moment.

Your players displayed conduct below that which was exhibited by a team that was largely despised in the ACC. That's saying something.

dbcooper
11-24-2014, 05:11 PM
Soooo....you are telling me they spelled "UNC" correct? The Carolina Tutors must have made the 8 mile trip with the team.

mkirsh
11-24-2014, 05:20 PM
Not surprising that Fedora and Cunningham have not disciplined the team - if the past is any indication, it's likely that someone not on the team did the writing on the players' behalf, and therefore this is an academic issue instead of an athletic one.

conmanlhughes
11-24-2014, 05:25 PM
Really? Exactly how does the bell look dry? Or wet? Or somewhere in between? I'm not a paint expert but the ability to determine whether paint is wet or dry from a picture seems unlikely. Perhaps I am wrong...

Perhaps they sprayed the bell outside of the locker room, like we generally do when we win the bell. Doesn't makes sense to me to trot a Duke colored bell back to your locker room and THEN spray it.

To put it in an analogy, if you had photo evidence of a man holding a weapon in a house taken when the crime took place, would you at least be suspicious of the individual?

Obviously this is not as extreme, however, automatically discrediting those photographs seems unwise. Perhaps we should not be so terribly quick to jump on someone like that who is trying to make an effort to dig deeper, rather than simply discussing known information.

CameronBlue
11-24-2014, 05:28 PM
Yeah, painters gonna paint.

Yup. Just ask CB&B. Whether he's painting kiddie faces at area street fairs or moonlighting as a 2nd shift needle man at the local tat palace, SOMEBODY is going to suffer for his art.

Bob Green
11-24-2014, 05:28 PM
Perhaps we should not be so terribly quick to jump on someone like that who is trying to make an effort to dig deeper, rather than simply discussing known information.

You did not answer the question: how does the bell look dry? Or as you stated, "somewhat" dry.

OldPhiKap
11-24-2014, 05:29 PM
Yup. Just ask CB&B. Whether he's painting kiddie faces at area street fairs or moonlighting as a 2nd shift needle man at the local tat palace, SOMEBODY is going to suffer for his art.

I'm not big on tats -- but if I was going to get one, CB&B would be the artist I want on my arm. Seriously talented guy.

semper phi 78
11-24-2014, 05:45 PM
Maybe we should just leave that locker room in the sorry condition it's in right now and let the rest of the teams coming to Wallace Wade know how low our 'rivals' have sunk.

Maybe it's time to give real consideration to a "sanction" of our own...begin total disassociation from UNC as our RIVAL. Beat the stuffing out of them over in Chapel Hill next year and LEAVE THE BELL THERE.

fogey
11-24-2014, 05:46 PM
Perhaps they sprayed the bell outside of the locker room, like we generally do when we win the bell. Doesn't makes sense to me to trot a Duke colored bell back to your locker room and THEN spray it.

Here is link to local news story with video inside the locker room. No doubt additional spray painting went on, with gusto, inside the locker room, so that should clear that up. Also, no sign of a single coach in the video, so they must have been the ones outside painting "UNC" on the walls! ;)

http://abc11.com/sports/unc-apologizes-to-duke-for-lockerroom-paint-mess/409145/

weezie
11-24-2014, 06:06 PM
You have to wonder why those UNC players still have spray paint cans in their hands. The bell looks somewhat dry, so I don't believe it was fresh spraying of the bell....

Perhaps they were spraying each other's behinds like the clown college students that they all are.

Lowlife, unwashed, illiterate jackasses.

Devil in the Blue Dress
11-24-2014, 06:18 PM
The damage was first discovered in and around the locker room late Thursday night and then later on Sunday when the Duke was ready to use the practice field. The most recent update on cost to repair is perhaps in excess of $25K.

jv001
11-24-2014, 06:22 PM
Jim,
I may be preaching to the choir, but Wheat's comments are typical of the UNC mindset... they TRULY believe that UNC can do no wrong.... even when caught doing wrong red handed, they dismiss it as nothing to see, everyone does it, yada... yada... yada.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the mess going on with the fake classes, but you have to wonder how the NCAA investigator will process this additional display by UNC of having little to zero control over their players, even when they are in a controlled environment such as a visiting locker room, with staff present.

I agree about typical comments from typical Carolina fans. "The everyone does it" EXCUSE is getting old. Everyone doesn't do it. Carolina has been given a pass on their evil doings for as long as I can remember. It goes back past the Doug Moe days of "shaving points". "Everyone does it" was their reply back then. It's win at all costs and who cares if we get caught. No one will do anything about it. Sort of like the world we live in today. Right is wrong and wrong is right, but that's another subject for a different venue. GoDuke!

jimsumner
11-24-2014, 06:29 PM
I agree about typical comments from typical Carolina fans. "The everyone does it" EXCUSE is getting old. Everyone doesn't do it. Carolina has been given a pass on their evil doings for as long as I can remember. It goes back past the Doug Moe days of "shaving points". "Everyone does it" was their reply back then. It's win at all costs and who cares if we get caught. No one will do anything about it. Sort of like the world we live in today. Right is wrong and wrong is right, but that's another subject for a different venue. GoDuke!

Doug Moe did not shave points. He met with a gambler, turned him down but didn't report the meeting and did accept travel money. But he never shaved points.

Another Carolina player, Lou Brown (not Larry) was a go-between putting gamblers in contact with players who he thought might be receptive to illegal inducements. A scumbag but technically a facilitator not an actual point shaver.

jv001
11-24-2014, 06:36 PM
Doug Moe did not shave points. He met with a gambler, turned him down but didn't report the meeting and did accept travel money. But he never shaved points.

Another Carolina player, Lou Brown (not Larry) was a go-between putting gamblers in contact with players who he thought might be receptive to illegal inducements. A scumbag but technically a facilitator not an actual point shaver.

Thanks for the correction, Jim. Good to hear that Doug didn't shave points. I always liked him. Matter of fact, he got a me into a few Elon College games when I didn't have a ticket. GoDuke!

howardlander
11-24-2014, 06:36 PM
Here's the thing I don't get about UNC fans: Why aren't they angry about any of this? If this was Duke, I'd be furious. First there is the 18 years of cheating and if that's not bad enough, when "we" finally win a big game, do we win with class and dignity? No, "we" confirm just about every negative impression people have of us by acting like fools who have never won a game before. Fabulous.

If you read the comments on the the WRAL web site about the vandalism, there are several folks saying they will never root for UNC again. Maybe that's an extreme reaction. But I'm just amazed at the cognitive dissonance it takes to still voluntarily associate with these guys and defend them in the face of overwhelming evidence of an incredibly serious scandal. And now vandalism?

Wheat, aren't you even a little angry about everything UNC has done? No feeling of betrayal? Nothing?

Howard

conmanlhughes
11-24-2014, 06:40 PM
You did not answer the question: how does the bell look dry? Or as you stated, "somewhat" dry.

Please look at the base of the bell opposite of the seat closest to the nearest wheel. That part looks dry. The bell itself does not due to special attention from the amateur painters. The light is not reflecting off the base the same way it is off the bell. This is not due to an overhead light and its placement, but due to the lack of reflective quality of dry paint.

MarkD83
11-24-2014, 06:53 PM
Saying "this sort of stuff happens all the time" is an observation, not an excuse. No need to try and put "words in my mouth" to suit your narrative.



Sorry if this is pointed out later in the thread but I am tired of this BS excuse. This stuff does NOT happen all of the time it just happens all of the time at UNC.

MarkD83
11-24-2014, 06:59 PM
You know I have a great way that Duke can deal with this in two years. If you want to act like children then you can dress at UNC and have your half time talk in the end zone.

MarkD83
11-24-2014, 07:14 PM
Here is link to local news story with video inside the locker room. No doubt additional spray painting went on, with gusto, inside the locker room, so that should clear that up. Also, no sign of a single coach in the video, so they must have been the ones outside painting "UNC" on the walls! ;)

http://abc11.com/sports/unc-apologizes-to-duke-for-lockerroom-paint-mess/409145/

Sometimes you have to wonder who is putting together the ads with these videos. The ad I saw before the video was for the NC Art Museum. I can't stop laughing.

hudlow
11-24-2014, 07:21 PM
I agree about typical comments from typical Carolina fans. "The everyone does it" EXCUSE is getting old. Everyone doesn't do it. Carolina has been given a pass on their evil doings for as long as I can remember.

What other excuse could they use?:confused:

4Gen
11-24-2014, 07:34 PM
Can anyone imagine a Cut team getting tagged for three unsportsmanlike penalties followed by vandalism of the host school's facilities?

My imagination does not extend that far.

Henderson
11-24-2014, 07:37 PM
I couldn't read the linked story (must subscribe).

Did the players just find spray paint in the locker room and have a spontaneous moment of irresponsible and inexcusable juvenile behavior, or did someone actually bring a spray can with him, suggesting premeditated malicious destruction of property?

And where the *&^% were the coaches? Yeah, talk about a lack of institutional control, but if you don't even have staff control over your own team in a locker room filled with coaches and players. Well then... there's not much chance you have greater institutional control over anything. Unless, of course, the coaching staff was ok with it as it happened, figuring they'd just half-heartedly apologize and cut a check for damages as money well-spent. That's institutional control right there. Just not the good kind.

There's no way Wheat gets off by saying he doesn't condone this and that it happens and that we'll get over it. This merits outright condemnation and embarrassment by any reasonable observer.

Wheat: Try this: "I condemn it. It was wrong. And the people responsible, including any coaches who observed and allowed it, should be punished."

OZ
11-24-2014, 07:41 PM
Not surprising that Fedora and Cunningham have not disciplined the team - if the past is any indication, it's likely that someone not on the team did the writing on the players' behalf, and therefore this is an academic issue instead of an athletic one.


I see that Fedora has taken the official Williams/unc coaches' position.... "I don't know....I don't know."
It seems there is a lot of that going around in the land of the pale blue.

weezie
11-24-2014, 07:53 PM
For starters those jackass hole coaches and so-called players/cheaters/embarassments should show up with their own truckload of donations for the Duke Neonatal unit drive that OUR team is sponsoring before the wake game.

Bunch of two faced lying cowards. They truly do not deserve to be our rivals. They aren't good enough.

Duvall
11-24-2014, 07:54 PM
For starters those jackass hole coaches and so-called players/cheaters/embarassments should show up with their own truckload of donations for the Duke Neonatal unit drive that OUR team is sponsoring before the wake game.

Bunch of two faced lying cowards. They truly do not deserve to be our rivals.

I disagree. They don't deserve to be anyone's rivals.

bob blue devil
11-24-2014, 08:23 PM
I know I'm in the minority, but this is pretty low on the list of things I'm gonna get worked up about. Yeah, it was a low class move, but it's not like they hurt anyone. Believe it or not some Duke athletes have misbehaved in the past too (I've seen it first hand). Frankly, I'm more dissapointed in Fedora's lack of disciplinary reaction - again it's the folks in charge who are letting chapel hill down. I almost wonder if he is complicit in the crime.

allenmurray
11-24-2014, 08:26 PM
Did you see them do $25k of damage, or just misbehave? As a patent of two boys I never condone the idea of "others do it so it is okay"

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-24-2014, 08:31 PM
I know I'm in the minority, but this is pretty low on the list of things I'm gonna get worked up about. Yeah, it was a low class move, but it's not like they hurt anyone. Believe it or not some Duke athletes have misbehaved in the past too (I've seen it first hand). Frankly, I'm more dissapointed in Fedora's lack of disciplinary reaction - again it's the folks in charge who are letting chapel hill down. I almost wonder if he is complicit in the crime.

You and I are on the same page. I would rather worry about our football team.

Is anyone really suprised that the UNC football was overexuberant and made mistakes? I am more surprised with the performance of the two teams last Thursday.

Can we "next play" this and not give UNC the satisfaction of dwelling on this?

Henderson
11-24-2014, 08:52 PM
Is anyone really suprised that the UNC football was overexuberant and made mistakes?

Being over exuberant and making a mistake is when you were feeling cocky and skied down a black diamond slope you weren't prepared for.

Vandalism isn't a "mistake" of "over exuberance". That's the default narrative of enablers and excusers.

It's just wrong, pure and simple.

richardjackson199
11-24-2014, 09:14 PM
You and I are on the same page. I would rather worry about our football team.

Is anyone really suprised that the UNC football was overexuberant and made mistakes? I am more surprised with the performance of the two teams last Thursday.

Can we "next play" this and not give UNC the satisfaction of dwelling on this?

Count me in the minority. I agree with this and bob Blue Devil's post.

This was wrong, but it pales in comparison to 18 years of systematic improper benefits to athletes. I would rather our front page and ESPN have linked the wonderful opinion piece by the '71 UNC basketball player Eggleston in the current UNC scandal fraud thread. Or link the Dan Kane article about who UNC is paying big bucks to consult them how to weasel out of it.

This action sucks, but it did not really surprise me. I guess at this point not much UNC does surprises me any more.

What really upset me was getting humiliated on the field by their football team in such a crucial game for our season. That was devastating. This is idiots acting like idiots. Getting angry about this is like getting angry about your new little puppy peeing on the carpet. He really just doesn't know any better. He really is that dumb. By us dwelling on this, we take attention away from much more important current issues. By dwelling on this - we draw more attention to the devastating loss we just suffered on the field. Responding to this with outrage can come across as sour grapes. Of course it's outrageous. But we need to choose our battles here and focus attention on the truly egregious behavior UNC has been orchestrating and condoning: 18 years. 18 years. And on the 18th birthday, we found out Rashad's paper wasn't his. Go head heels, go head get down (to hell).

Dwelling on spray paint vandalism feeds right into their strategy of deflecting attention away from the improper benefits to athletes.

tele
11-24-2014, 09:16 PM
What other excuse could they use?:confused:

"Just trading paint"?

bob blue devil
11-24-2014, 09:26 PM
Did you see them do $25k of damage, or just misbehave? As a patent of two boys I never condone the idea of "others do it so it is okay"

a) i don't think anyone is condoning what happened, so that comment appears to be a straw man to me
b) please define for me the level of damage that draws the line between "just misbehaving" and something more serious in your head

BD80
11-24-2014, 09:52 PM
Next visit the tarheels make, they should be given use of a tailgate gazebo and a group of port-o-johns.

allenmurray
11-24-2014, 09:58 PM
a) i don't think anyone is condoning what happened, so that comment appears to be a straw man to me
b) please define for me the level of damage that draws the line between "just misbehaving" and something more serious in your head

If you can't pay for what you broke it is more than just mischief.

My point was that when we hold young adults to high standards (whether as a parent or a coach) they will meet them. When there are no standards this is what results. I said or implied nothing as to your standards - just stating my own.

bob blue devil
11-24-2014, 10:02 PM
If you can't pay for what you broke it is more than just mischief.

My point was that when we hold young adults to high standards (whether as a parent or a coach) they will meet them. When there are no standards this is what results. I said or implied nothing as to your standards - just stating my own.

so rich kids are allowed to get away with more than poor kids? typical elitist duke attitude. (i kid! i kid!)

Wheat/"/"/"
11-24-2014, 10:12 PM
Wheat: Try this: "I condemn it. It was wrong. And the people responsible, including any coaches who observed and allowed it, should be punished."

So....me saying I don't excuse it, condone it....and that I think those responsible should go over there and clean it up themselves is not good enough for you guys?

And I'll add I disagree with the coach and say somebody should be disciplined.

But, whatever.

I'm out, and I regret ever getting involved in this conversation.

MCFinARL
11-24-2014, 10:13 PM
Yep, good ol' SI is blaming "errant paint."

http://www.si.com/college-football/2014/11/24/north-carolina-apologizes-duke-damages-celebration-victory-bell

So "errant," it results in "UNC" ending up on the walls. What a coincidence *that* is!

Also, note that SI is reporting the earlier "$10,000" total for the repairs. The Durham Herald Sun article has been edited to say the damage is estimated to exceed $25K.

Yes, the "errant paint" story was a bit bizarre, especially since the story itself reported specifically the spraying of the letters "UNC" on the wall.


I couldn't read the linked story (must subscribe).

Did the players just find spray paint in the locker room and have a spontaneous moment of irresponsible and inexcusable juvenile behavior, or did someone actually bring a spray can with him, suggesting premeditated malicious destruction of property?

And where the *&^% were the coaches? Yeah, talk about a lack of institutional control, but if you don't even have staff control over your own team in a locker room filled with coaches and players. Well then... there's not much chance you have greater institutional control over anything. Unless, of course, the coaching staff was ok with it as it happened, figuring they'd just half-heartedly apologize and cut a check for damages as money well-spent. That's institutional control right there. Just not the good kind.

There's no way Wheat gets off by saying he doesn't condone this and that it happens and that we'll get over it. This merits outright condemnation and embarrassment by any reasonable observer.

Wheat: Try this: "I condemn it. It was wrong. And the people responsible, including any coaches who observed and allowed it, should be punished."

The spray paint was presumably present in the hope the team could win and paint the bell, following tradition. That in itself is not a sign of premeditated vandalism.

And I am inclined to give Wheat a little more of a break on the "kids do stupid things" front than some others--but only to a point. Kids do, in fact, do stupid things, but athletes who are representing their school and, essentially, "on duty"--still in their uniforms on another school's property, should not be doing stupid things to this extent without intervention by coaches. Spray paint in the locker room AND Wallace Wade AND the practice field is more than "one or two" (as Fedora suggested) players feeling their oats. It suggests a program in which the players cannot be fully trusted to behave maturely and, more important, coaches who are not taking responsibility for telling their players how to behave properly. I could overlook this incident much more easily if Fedora had immediately described the behavior as inexcusable and had taken personal responsibility for the failure to adequately teach and supervise players. Ultimately, this is on him and the coaching staff as much as on the players, for not making the expected behavior standards clear.

Olympic Fan
11-24-2014, 10:24 PM
You and I are on the same page. I would rather worry about our football team.

Is anyone really suprised that the UNC football was overexuberant and made mistakes? I am more surprised with the performance of the two teams last Thursday.

Can we "next play" this and not give UNC the satisfaction of dwelling on this?

I'm a little perplexed by your attitude, Mountain Devil. You start a new thread to spew your disgust for Jameis Winston and his misbehavior ... then brush off this incident as not worthy of getting excited about.

Well, from my point of view, this is WORSE than anything we know Winston did. I put it that way because sexual assault is a thousand times worse than that, but he's never been charged in that instance and after the Duke lacrosse hoax, I'll never again convict before the evidence is in.

Take that out and you have a kid who is "overexhuberant and made mistakes" (to use your dismissal of the UNC vandalism). The shoplifting of crab legs (from Tony Warren to Tommy Burleson to Lorenzo Charles, we've seen a parade of ACC athletes do similar "pranks" without punishment). The BB gun thing when he was a redshirt is wrong, but a bunch of Wake basketball players did the same a few years ago without punishment. The vulgar chant was ugly, but that one earned him a one-game suspension. Who is going to be suspended for doing $25,000 worth of damage at Duke?

I'm not trying to defend Winston here, only to suggest that this kid that you despise has not been as bad as the UNC vandals.

And, I'm sure somebody will point to the succession of mistakes that Winston has made ... but is this the first incident of UNC misbehavior? Did anybody see the video of their behavior after beating NC State last year and dancing on the logo at midfield, tearing up the turf at Carter-Finley Stadium? How about the hazing incident this summer where at least four scholarship players attacked and injured a walk-on? I could also point out that under Fedora, UNC has committed more personal fouls than any team in the ACC.

Feel free to continue to hate on Winston and shrug off the continued bad behavior by the UNC football team. Personally, I think the UNC behavior is worse, although I reserve the right to change my mind when -- and if -- Winston is convicted of sexual assault.

PS I'm also disgusted with Fedora's response. First, he tried to brush it off with the suggestion that some of his players got a little carried away painting the bell and splashed paint on the carpet and walls of the locker room. Then, apparently, somebody pointed out that it was more than a few splashes of paint -- there was graffiti spray painted on the walls. At that point, he changed his story, but argued that he couldn't punish anybody because he didn't know who did it.

That is lame ... and in line with the UNC doctrine of ignoring responsibility for their crimes.

diablesseblu
11-24-2014, 10:41 PM
I've given up expecting any truly professional, mature response from Fedora. It's clear that he's not really in charge of his troops, e.g., the beating of the walkon WR before the season started.
The only time he addresses any issue is when it has already been revealed by someone outside of the Carolina "family."

Butch certainly had his issues, but I wouldn't want my son to play for Larry either. All he would see/learn is a lack of accountability. Maybe "The Hat" was the perfect choice for UNC "post Butch."?

jimsumner
11-24-2014, 10:42 PM
I think we pass the over-exuberant threshold long before we reach $25,000 worth of damage.

devildeac
11-24-2014, 10:48 PM
a) i don't think anyone is condoning what happened, so that comment appears to be a straw man to me
b) please define for me the level of damage that draws the line between "just misbehaving" and something more serious in your head

How about this?

http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/crime-penalties/federal/Vandalism.htm


If you haven't read some of the other posts earlier in the thread, you should. Especially the one that links an article that reclassifies a misdemeanor to a felony if there is greater than $5K (or $10K) worth of damages. A felony. Read that again and allow it to register fully. Not only are they cheaters but they're felons, too. Bastards.

bob blue devil
11-24-2014, 11:07 PM
How about this?

http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/crime-penalties/federal/Vandalism.htm


If you haven't read some of the other posts earlier in the thread, you should. Especially the one that links an article that reclassifies a misdemeanor to a felony if there is greater than $5K (or $10K) worth of damages. A felony. Read that again and allow it to register fully. Not only are they cheaters but they're felons, too. Bastards.

listen, if you want to be really infuriated by what happened, by all means. as i've said earlier, this was a low class act - i'd be ashamed if duke players were involved in something like this and hope our leadership would do a better job of handling the situation. unfortunately, individual duke athletes have had much more serious transgressions in the past - so i'm not about to go over the top with condemnation of unc because it had some athletes misbehave. where the line between a misdemeanor and a felony is drawn by the law in a situation where there will be no legal consequences doesn't hold a lot of sway with me.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-24-2014, 11:21 PM
I'm a little perplexed by your attitude, Mountain Devil. You start a new thread to spew your disgust for Jameis Winston and his misbehavior ... then brush off this incident as not worthy of getting excited about.

Well, from my point of view, this is WORSE than anything we know Winston did. I put it that way because sexual assault is a thousand times worse than that, but he's never been charged in that instance and after the Duke lacrosse hoax, I'll never again convict before the evidence is in.

Take that out and you have a kid who is "overexhuberant and made mistakes" (to use your dismissal of the UNC vandalism). The shoplifting of crab legs (from Tony Warren to Tommy Burleson to Lorenzo Charles, we've seen a parade of ACC athletes do similar "pranks" without punishment). The BB gun thing when he was a redshirt is wrong, but a bunch of Wake basketball players did the same a few years ago without punishment. The vulgar chant was ugly, but that one earned him a one-game suspension. Who is going to be suspended for doing $25,000 worth of damage at Duke?

I'm not trying to defend Winston here, only to suggest that this kid that you despise has not been as bad as the UNC vandals.

And, I'm sure somebody will point to the succession of mistakes that Winston has made ... but is this the first incident of UNC misbehavior? Did anybody see the video of their behavior after beating NC State last year and dancing on the logo at midfield, tearing up the turf at Carter-Finley Stadium? How about the hazing incident this summer where at least four scholarship players attacked and injured a walk-on? I could also point out that under Fedora, UNC has committed more personal fouls than any team in the ACC.

Feel free to continue to hate on Winston and shrug off the continued bad behavior by the UNC football team. Personally, I think the UNC behavior is worse, although I reserve the right to change my mind when -- and if -- Winston is convicted of sexual assault.

PS I'm also disgusted with Fedora's response. First, he tried to brush it off with the suggestion that some of his players got a little carried away painting the bell and splashed paint on the carpet and walls of the locker room. Then, apparently, somebody pointed out that it was more than a few splashes of paint -- there was graffiti spray painted on the walls. At that point, he changed his story, but argued that he couldn't punish anybody because he didn't know who did it.

That is lame ... and in line with the UNC doctrine of ignoring responsibility for their crimes.

Fair point. But my question in the Winston thread was whether we will root for FSU (I won't). I am sure as heck not rooting for UNC after (or before) last week's shenanigans.

I don't see inconsistency in these two stances.

I don't want Winston on my football team or wearing a Duke uniform. I also wouldn't want anyone on Duke's team committing vandalism in anyone's stadium.

No, I don't like what the players did to our locker room. I am just honestly not surprised and don't expect anything more noble from our rivals down the road.

I sure wish we had whooped UNC on the field and given them no reason to be handling spray paint to begin with.

Dukehky
11-24-2014, 11:58 PM
Really bad. Not as bad as somebody throwing a rock through a Chapel window on LDOC, but really bad. I'm not sure how spray painting a wall costs 25K, but I would love to see them work that money off by picking up trash on the side of 15-501 in Orange vests. That would be my favorite.

Duvall
11-25-2014, 12:02 AM
Really bad. Not as bad as somebody throwing a rock through a Chapel window on LDOC, but really bad. I'm not sure how spray painting a wall costs 25K, but I would love to see them work that money off by picking up trash on the side of 15-501 in Orange vests. That would be my favorite.

It obviously wasn't one wall, as is apparent from every description.

Furniture
11-25-2014, 12:08 AM
I know I'm in the minority, but this is pretty low on the list of things I'm gonna get worked up about. Yeah, it was a low class move, but it's not like they hurt anyone. Believe it or not some Duke athletes have misbehaved in the past too (I've seen it first hand). Frankly, I'm more dissapointed in Fedora's lack of disciplinary reaction - again it's the folks in charge who are letting chapel hill down. I almost wonder if he is complicit in the crime.

You are not in the minority. I agree and I just can't fathom how people can get so worked up about something like this. I also dont understand how many posters here just pick apart any post by Wheat and run down the guy completely. To me this consistent belittling of his posts is the very same disrespectful behavior that UNC fans are accused of.

Dukehky
11-25-2014, 12:27 AM
It obviously wasn't one wall, as is apparent from every description.

I don't care if it was $1 dollar worth of damage, it was still an incredibly low thing for a team to do. This was a team issue, which makes it a player, coach, and athletic department issue. But regardless of if they covered the entirety of the locker room in Carolina blue, I was just saying how I was surprised by the amount of money and that that 25K seems like it would be a TON of damage that no media outlet could overlook maybe it was. But hey, let's nitpick every point someone makes even if they agree with you.

devildeac
11-25-2014, 07:10 AM
listen, if you want to be really infuriated by what happened, by all means. as i've said earlier, this was a low class act - i'd be ashamed if duke players were involved in something like this and hope our leadership would do a better job of handling the situation. unfortunately, individual duke athletes have had much more serious transgressions in the past - so i'm not about to go over the top with condemnation of unc because it had some athletes misbehave. where the line between a misdemeanor and a felony is drawn by the law in a situation where there will be no legal consequences doesn't hold a lot of sway with me.

I don't know where to begin to address most of the evasive and illogical aspects of this, especially since now you've accused Duke players of other more serious transgressions. Links? There indeed have been Duke players, MBB and FB who have have their academic and social problems and have been disciplined for them. Where's the discipline/punishment with this issue? They've set the bar low. But wait, they just happen to be playing NCSU this Saturday. How convenient. The State fans I talked with last night about it were equally as disgusted with it as many, many Duke fans seem to be.

I provided an example to your question about drawing the line between mischief and something worse and you turn it into basically into an I don't care response. If Duke doesn't wish to pursue this on criminal grounds, I'd disagree with that but that's their choice. Try this: go assemble 70-80 of your neighbors/friends and disfigure some property in Chapel Hill this weekend. See how you get treated.

OldPhiKap
11-25-2014, 07:36 AM
I don't know where to begin to address most of the evasive and illogical aspects of this, especially since now you've accused Duke players of other more serious transgressions. Links? There indeed have been Duke players, MBB and FB who have have their academic and social problems and have been disciplined for them. Where's the discipline/punishment with this issue? They've set the bar low. But wait, they just happen to be playing NCSU this Saturday. How convenient. The State fans I talked with last night about it were equally as disgusted with it as many, many Duke fans seem to be.

I provided an example to your question about drawing the line between mischief and something worse and you turn it into basically into an I don't care response. If Duke doesn't wish to pursue this on criminal grounds, I'd disagree with that but that's their choice. Try this: go assemble 70-80 of your neighbors/friends and disfigure some property in Chapel Hill this weekend. See how you get treated.

Nail
head.

It's not an issue of kids doing something stupid. It is that, once caught, there are no consequences. Rather, it is quietly condoned. It's like the institution has no control or something.

Wait, there's that phrase again.

I am starting to approach Throatybeard territory with the Heels -- I don't care if we ever play them again.

bob blue devil
11-25-2014, 08:37 AM
I don't know where to begin to address most of the evasive and illogical aspects of this, especially since now you've accused Duke players of other more serious transgressions. Links? There indeed have been Duke players, MBB and FB who have have their academic and social problems and have been disciplined for them. Where's the discipline/punishment with this issue? They've set the bar low. But wait, they just happen to be playing NCSU this Saturday. How convenient. The State fans I talked with last night about it were equally as disgusted with it as many, many Duke fans seem to be.

I provided an example to your question about drawing the line between mischief and something worse and you turn it into basically into an I don't care response. If Duke doesn't wish to pursue this on criminal grounds, I'd disagree with that but that's their choice. Try this: go assemble 70-80 of your neighbors/friends and disfigure some property in Chapel Hill this weekend. See how you get treated.

ultimately, i think most of us agree that unc's administration has not responded appropriately (hence my initial speculation that perhaps fedora even knew this was going on as it happened), but we disagree on how awful the actual vandalism was. i've personally seen high school and college athletes do a lot of stupid things - stealing trophies and other trinkets from the host school was popular within a crowd on one of my old high school teams; vandalizing a rival schools football facilities was popular with some of our football players (if the facilities were as nice as duke's, maybe they could've caused $25k in damages). i'm not going to get into duke stuff, because i prefer not to and because i had one post where i shared a more minor transgression that i observed deleted by the mods. i do not believe any of these groups were particularly abnormal. so i guess what the guys at unc did just didn't surprise me a whole lot or bother me - i've seen stuff like this many times before.

now in terms of your specific comments, i'm shocked that you need links for something more serious than vandalism. well here are two, now please concede the absurdity of your position:
Duke LB Robs Man In Wheelchair (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/duke-lb-robs-man-in-wheelchair/)
Ex-Duke star Redick charged with drunken driving (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2006/news/story?id=2482061)

you've suggested my comments are illogical and evasive. you'll note that in 2 of my prior posts i've stated that unc's leadership has fallen short - thus, your "counterpoint" suggesting i should be upset by the lack of discipline is what is evasive and illogical.

You are right - you provided an example about where one could draw the line where i'd asked for one; i was too terse in my response to that. You are also correct that, in terms of my "outrage" over the vandalism, it really doesn't matter to me whether it is technically a felony vandalism or misdemeanor vandalism.

davekay1971
11-25-2014, 08:52 AM
I am starting to approach Throatybeard territory with the Heels -- I don't care if we ever play them again.

I'm already there. UNC has now entered Maryland territory for me. Once it was a rivalry that I respected and cherished, because, no matter how much their fans irritated me, I respected the university. I felt like Duke and UNC were competing as equals - two academically strong universities that competed without cheating. Some years they had our number, some years we had theirs, and, as much as I hated their fans and hated losing to them, I always respected our rival.

No longer.

UNC, as an institution, set up and executed a massive program of academic fraud designed to keep athletes (1) eligible and (2) free from academic rigors that would distract them from their athletic endeavors. When caught, UNC lied, misled, evaded, attacked whistleblowers, etc. Does anyone have the feeling that UNC has any heartfelt desire to clean up their swamp?

And now we get this crap. It's not so much that a bunch of idiot kids got carried away and acted like hooligans. It's that the same university that put athletics above academics and integrity is now putting athletics above discipline and respect.

UNC is no longer worthy to be our rival.

PS: Agreed with Furniture about the treatment of Wheat on this thread. It's one thing to pick on our rival and be ticked about the UNC football players and program, but Wheat was perfectly clear and reasonable that he did not condone the actions of the team and felt like the players involved should get punished. Fair enough.

davekay1971
11-25-2014, 09:04 AM
now in terms of your specific comments, i'm shocked that you need links for something more serious than vandalism. well here are two, now please concede the absurdity of your position:
Duke LB Robs Man In Wheelchair (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/duke-lb-robs-man-in-wheelchair/)
Ex-Duke star Redick charged with drunken driving (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2006/news/story?id=2482061)
.

Not to speak for devildeac, but I think you're missing the point with this counter-argument that one Duke athlete or another has done something worse that vandalizing property. There have been lots of Duke athletes over the years, and, since you're including post-Duke activities (ex-Duke star JJ's drunken driving, for example), there's a good chance that one or more former Duke athletes have done something pretty horrible at some point in their lives.

It's not that Duke students or athletes are above anything more than misdemeanor offenses in life, it's that a big group of UNC football players, right after a game, presumably with UNC officials or coaches somewhere around (did Fedora et al get one one bus and leave the players unattended to take a later bus?), tore up a bunch of Duke's property, and Fedora's and UNC's response so far has been "sorry 'bout that, send us the bill."

So, along those lines, can you site an incident when a Duke player, or group of Duke players, engaged in behavior as bad or worse than what the UNC players did last week, and were not punished by the coaching staff or school? It's an honest question, because I can't think of such an incident, other than the obvious incident where Laettner attempted to kill Aminu Timberlake with his Mighty Foot Stomp of Annihilation and Coach K let it slide.

elvis14
11-25-2014, 09:09 AM
Heard Larry Fedora yesterday in an interview on 99.9, The Heel. He claimed he did not know who was responsible for the vandalism. Of course he also stated that he felt the football team had already been punished for the AFAM scandal and he expects no new sanctions.

In other news Roy Williams came out and stated that he knew nothing of the paint incident but that as soon as he realized the vandalism would become known to the public he advised his players to exit Sherwin-Williams immediately because he didn't want them clustering in the paint store.

jv001
11-25-2014, 09:27 AM
Nail
head.

It's not an issue of kids doing something stupid. It is that, once caught, there are no consequences. Rather, it is quietly condoned. It's like the institution has no control or something.

Wait, there's that phrase again.

I am starting to approach Throatybeard territory with the Heels -- I don't care if we ever play them again.

This is where I'm at with the Tar Heels. Not because of what they did but because they tried to cover it up and their fans don't think they did anything wrong. I wish we would never play them again in any sport. GoDuke!

bob blue devil
11-25-2014, 09:34 AM
Not to speak for devildeac, but I think you're missing the point with this counter-argument that one Duke athlete or another has done something worse that vandalizing property. There have been lots of Duke athletes over the years, and, since you're including post-Duke activities (ex-Duke star JJ's drunken driving, for example), there's a good chance that one or more former Duke athletes have done something pretty horrible at some point in their lives.

sorry, in my haste i forgot that jj was post graduation. would you like me to come up with more examples of publicized misbehavior during time at duke, or are you satisfied they exist? i mean examples in addition to the other absurdly horrible one i provided.



It's not that Duke students or athletes are above anything more than misdemeanor offenses in life, it's that a big group of UNC football players, right after a game, presumably with UNC officials or coaches somewhere around (did Fedora et al get one one bus and leave the players unattended to take a later bus?), tore up a bunch of Duke's property, and Fedora's and UNC's response so far has been "sorry 'bout that, send us the bill."


the suggestion that i'm missing the possibility unc administrators were around is funny because i've explicitly stated that possibility in multiple posts, including the post you are critiquing here. i've also stated in multiple posts, including the one you are critiquing here, that unc's administration has handled this wrong and continues to let the school down. please read my post before you critique it.




So, along those lines, can you site an incident when a Duke player, or group of Duke players, engaged in behavior as bad or worse than what the UNC players did last week, and were not punished by the coaching staff or school? It's an honest question, because I can't think of such an incident, other than the obvious incident where Laettner attempted to kill Aminu Timberlake with his Mighty Foot Stomp of Annihilation and Coach K let it slide.

i never suggested that this has happened, so i see no reason why i should be asked to provide such evidence. please explain this to me.

allenmurray
11-25-2014, 09:40 AM
I don't know where to begin to address most of the evasive and illogical aspects of this, especially since now you've accused Duke players of other more serious transgressions.


You are correct. bob blue devil's equating acts done by individuals with acts done by a large group acting as a team unit is a great example of false equivalency.

Lid
11-25-2014, 09:48 AM
I'm already there. UNC has now entered Maryland territory for me. Once it was a rivalry that I respected and cherished, because, no matter how much their fans irritated me, I respected the university. I felt like Duke and UNC were competing as equals - two academically strong universities that competed without cheating. Some years they had our number, some years we had theirs, and, as much as I hated their fans and hated losing to them, I always respected our rival.

No longer.

UNC, as an institution, set up and executed a massive program of academic fraud designed to keep athletes (1) eligible and (2) free from academic rigors that would distract them from their athletic endeavors. When caught, UNC lied, misled, evaded, attacked whistleblowers, etc. Does anyone have the feeling that UNC has any heartfelt desire to clean up their swamp?

And now we get this crap. It's not so much that a bunch of idiot kids got carried away and acted like hooligans. It's that the same university that put athletics above academics and integrity is now putting athletics above discipline and respect.

UNC is no longer worthy to be our rival.

PS: Agreed with Furniture about the treatment of Wheat on this thread. It's one thing to pick on our rival and be ticked about the UNC football players and program, but Wheat was perfectly clear and reasonable that he did not condone the actions of the team and felt like the players involved should get punished. Fair enough.
I agree with nearly everything here. When all the rumors were swirling last year about UNC to the SEC, I was rooting hard for that. I'm a native North Carolinian, raised on the rivalry, and I'd be fine if we never played them again.

I do want to make one point about what rubbed me the wrong way in Wheat's posts. Personally, I don't care if he "didn't condone" vs. "condemned" (you say eggplant, I say aubergine) -- it's that he asserted that this kind of thing happens all the time, but never 1) offered any facts to back that up, or 2) admitted that was an unfair statement. To me, that's the same thing I hear from Carolina fans about many misdeeds ("We're not the only ones!"), and I don't see why it shouldn't be noted.

I'm proud of Duke teams who go to other schools, compete hard, win with grace and lose with class. I think saying this "happens all the time" minimizes the respect and self-control that other schools and teams display as a matter of course. May be a minor point (certainly it's less important than many things in life), but it's not irrelevant, in my opinion.

Devil in the Blue Dress
11-25-2014, 10:04 AM
Playing Carolina in anything no longer has the value or appeal it once had. It would be an improvement to switch NC State and UNC on the athletic schedules for all future events.

Reisen
11-25-2014, 10:08 AM
WTOP sports reporters were laughing about the vandalism this morning on-air (DC market). I just emailed their General Manager.

jv001
11-25-2014, 10:08 AM
I agree with nearly everything here. When all the rumors were swirling last year about UNC to the SEC, I was rooting hard for that. I'm a native North Carolinian, raised on the rivalry, and I'd be fine if we never played them again.

I do want to make one point about what rubbed me the wrong way in Wheat's posts. Personally, I don't care if he "didn't condone" vs. "condemned" (you say eggplant, I say aubergine) -- it's that he asserted that this kind of thing happens all the time, but never 1) offered any facts to back that up, or 2) admitted that was an unfair statement. To me, that's the same thing I hear from Carolina fans about many misdeeds ("We're not the only ones!"), and I don't see why it shouldn't be noted.
I'm proud of Duke teams who go to other schools, compete hard, win with grace and lose with class. I think saying this "happens all the time" minimizes the respect and self-control that other schools and teams display as a matter of course. May be a minor point (certainly it's less important than many things in life), but it's not irrelevant, in my opinion.

First, I like Wheat because it takes guts to come on a Duke site and post regularly. But sometimes he makes statemenst like he did on this thread("happens all the time") and that rubs some of us the wrong way. I respect Wheat for being a good fan of his college team, but I'm hoping he doesn't fall into the group of typical Carolina fans. The fan base that thinks the Tar Heels can do no wrong. I've lived with too many fans like that in my years here in good old North Carolina. GoDuke

davekay1971
11-25-2014, 10:23 AM
sorry, in my haste i forgot that jj was post graduation. would you like me to come up with more examples of publicized misbehavior during time at duke, or are you satisfied they exist? i mean examples in addition to the other absurdly horrible one i provided.



the suggestion that i'm missing the possibility unc administrators were around is funny because i've explicitly stated that possibility in multiple posts, including the post you are critiquing here. i've also stated in multiple posts, including the one you are critiquing here, that unc's administration has handled this wrong and continues to let the school down. please read my post before you critique it.




i never suggested that this has happened, so i see no reason why i should be asked to provide such evidence. please explain this to me.

To your first point, I readily acknowledge that some Duke athletes misbehave while at Duke. Now, do you know of an example where a Duke athlete has significantly misbehaved and gone unpunished? The article you kindly linked about the Duke FB player robbing the man in the wheelchair stated that the player was immediately suspended from the team.

Nowhere in my post did I suggest, or even imply, in any way, that you were missing the possibility UNC administrators were around. My only critique of your post was the false equivalence in the examples you supplied to devildeac between a bunch of UNC athletes engaging in bad behavior and going unpunished for that behavior, and two Duke athletes (one a former athlete) engaging in bad behavior. In my opinion, the examples you provided to devildeac are not particularly good counter-examples to the situation with the UNC players.

With regard to my asking for "evidence", I think your attempted comparison of the behavior of Duke and UNC athletes (and, as it seems particularly relevant, the way in which the two universities handle such behavior) would be better if you supplied examples of misdeeds by Duke athletes, while at Duke, which did not lead to those playes being punished. I never implied that you suggested such an event has happened, because you never did.

I did read your posts, and hope to read more soon!

PS: Shorter version: what Allenmurray said about 5 posts upthread. Allen has a way of saying things I want to say, but much more efficiently.

jv001
11-25-2014, 10:36 AM
Playing Carolina in anything no longer has the value or appeal it once had. It would be an improvement to switch NC State and UNC on the athletic schedules for all future events.

Amen! I like that idea. GoDuke!

Kfanarmy
11-25-2014, 10:41 AM
You are not in the minority. I agree and I just can't fathom how people can get so worked up about something like this. I also dont understand how many posters here just pick apart any post by Wheat and run down the guy completely. To me this consistent belittling of his posts is the very same disrespectful behavior that UNC fans are accused of. Concur. It represents a complete lack of respect for the individual based solely on fandom. It is simply unnecessary to spew the same vitriol as those one decries as base.

DukieInKansas
11-25-2014, 11:00 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03tHHI_7A3Y

Link to video of bell being painted in the locker room - provided by Tar Heel Athletics. Start at 1:50 to avoid seeing any game lowlights. Although it doesn't show who spray painted the walls, you can read jersey numbers of some of those painting the bell in the locker room. It appears that a member of the staff is leading the way as the bell leaves the field - so I have a hard time believing that members of the staff weren't present in the the locker room as this was going on.

My biggest beef is that it appears that no specific player is being disciplined. If they don't want to single out specific players, then the team as whole should be doing something for punishment. Perhaps come over to Durham and clean up a park, walk around the East Campus wall and pick up trash. Something.

OldPhiKap
11-25-2014, 11:07 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03tHHI_7A3Y

Link to video of bell being painted in the locker room - provided by Tar Heel Athletics. Start at 1:50 to avoid seeing any game lowlights. Although it doesn't show who spray painted the walls, you can read jersey numbers of some of those painting the bell in the locker room. It appears that a member of the staff is leading the way as the bell leaves the field - so I have a hard time believing that members of the staff weren't present in the the locker room as this was going on.

My biggest beef is that it appears that no specific player is being disciplined. If they don't want to single out specific players, then the team as whole should be doing something for punishment. Perhaps come over to Durham and clean up a park, walk around the East Campus wall and pick up trash. Something.

I bet that none of them get to choose where the next pre-game meal will be. So there's that.

Wander
11-25-2014, 11:13 AM
Now, do you know of an example where a Duke athlete has significantly misbehaved and gone unpunished?

Honestly, it's a hard question to answer fairly on a message board. My answer to your question is "yes," but the couple stories I have in mind aren't public or written in articles anywhere. I know beyond doubt that they're true, but they'd count as spreading unfounded rumors here (which I think is a good policy!), as I have nothing to prove them beyond people trusting my memory. I suspect this is the case for a bunch of people here.

I'm with you, bob blue devil. The UNC players were a bunch of dbags, I'm just not sure it's major enough, especially in light of the other more serious things going on at UNC, to warrant a 130+ post thread (which I recognize I'm now contributing to).

PackMan97
11-25-2014, 11:22 AM
I'm right there with y'all on never wanting to play Carolina again. They are cheaters. Worse, they are unrepentant cheaters who have yet to offer a sincere apology to anyone they have cheated. At the very least they ought to apologize to the athletes they cheated out of an education, at the very best they should apologize to their opponents whom they cheated out of a fair competition on the field.

I was discussing the idea of a boycott with a friend, here is how it ought to work:
* Tell UNC that you will no longer play them in an athletic event.
** If UNC shows up, refuse to take the field and forfeit. Don't give them the pleasure of winning.
** If UNC fails to show up, field your team and claim a W through their forfeit.

I would LOVE to see multiple teams boycott these holes. At the very least, tell UNC once they've given back their ill gotten gains and send their athletes to real classes you'll play them again.

With regards to everybody does...anyone recall the 6 or 7 NC State players that got suspended for a game because they decided to shoot some BB guns on campus? Anyone think Coach Doeren would let guys on the team get away with vandalizing a visitors locker room?

PackMan97
11-25-2014, 11:27 AM
I'm just not sure it's major enough, especially in light of the other more serious things going on at UNC, to warrant a 130+ post thread (which I recognize I'm now contributing to).

I doubt if it were WFU doing the vandalism this thread gets past 10 posts. Or even Boston College or some of the other teams that tend not to have negative news on a daily basis...let alone are our most hated rivals.

devildeac
11-25-2014, 11:34 AM
ultimately, i think most of us agree that unc's administration has not responded appropriately (hence my initial speculation that perhaps fedora even knew this was going on as it happened), but we disagree on how awful the actual vandalism was. i've personally seen high school and college athletes do a lot of stupid things - stealing trophies and other trinkets from the host school was popular within a crowd on one of my old high school teams; vandalizing a rival schools football facilities was popular with some of our football players (if the facilities were as nice as duke's, maybe they could've caused $25k in damages). i'm not going to get into duke stuff, because i prefer not to and because i had one post where i shared a more minor transgression that i observed deleted by the mods. i do not believe any of these groups were particularly abnormal. so i guess what the guys at unc did just didn't surprise me a whole lot or bother me - i've seen stuff like this many times before.

now in terms of your specific comments, i'm shocked that you need links for something more serious than vandalism. well here are two, now please concede the absurdity of your position:
Duke LB Robs Man In Wheelchair (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/duke-lb-robs-man-in-wheelchair/)
Ex-Duke star Redick charged with drunken driving (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2006/news/story?id=2482061)

you've suggested my comments are illogical and evasive. you'll note that in 2 of my prior posts i've stated that unc's leadership has fallen short - thus, your "counterpoint" suggesting i should be upset by the lack of discipline is what is evasive and illogical.

You are right - you provided an example about where one could draw the line where i'd asked for one; i was too terse in my response to that. You are also correct that, in terms of my "outrage" over the vandalism, it really doesn't matter to me whether it is technically a felony vandalism or misdemeanor vandalism.

Nice find on the robbery story. Here are the keys:

1. "Wade was being held under $25,000 bond in the jail, Howard said."



2. "Duke athletic director Joe Alleva suspended Wade from the team Friday and said his status on the team would be re-evaluated later."


How about that? The civil authorities take reasonable/appropriate actions and arrest and jail him and our AD also acts in a reasonable/appropriate manner suspends him from the team.

Response from the cheaters/felons: We're sorry. We'll pay for damages. No punishment/consequences.

Pathetic.

I'll address the Redick issue in another post.

OldPhiKap
11-25-2014, 11:39 AM
I doubt if it were WFU doing the vandalism this thread gets past 10 posts. Or even Boston College or some of the other teams that tend not to have negative news on a daily basis...let alone are our most hated rivals.

Exactly.

As for UNC, part of it is the accumulation of stuff over the last few years that exhibit a lack of control or accountability. Let alone an effort or desire to curb these kinds of actions.

Jameis Winston yelling an obscenity on FSU's campus is not remarkable in and of itself. When viewed in conjunction with the pattern that is emerging, though, it is disturbing. And FSU sat him for an entire football game against their arguably most difficult challenge of the regular season -- at Death Valley in prime time.

It is a sad day when FSU is more responsible than UNC.

cato
11-25-2014, 11:40 AM
Heard Larry Fedora yesterday in an interview on 99.9, The Heel. He claimed he did not know who was responsible for the vandalism.

There is a shockingly easy way to address this "problem." We are all familiar with it from grade school. Either the guilty parties step forward and accept responsibility, or the entire team does.

Carolina: not even living up to grade school standards.

devildeac
11-25-2014, 11:44 AM
ultimately, i think most of us agree that unc's administration has not responded appropriately (hence my initial speculation that perhaps fedora even knew this was going on as it happened), but we disagree on how awful the actual vandalism was. i've personally seen high school and college athletes do a lot of stupid things - stealing trophies and other trinkets from the host school was popular within a crowd on one of my old high school teams; vandalizing a rival schools football facilities was popular with some of our football players (if the facilities were as nice as duke's, maybe they could've caused $25k in damages). i'm not going to get into duke stuff, because i prefer not to and because i had one post where i shared a more minor transgression that i observed deleted by the mods. i do not believe any of these groups were particularly abnormal. so i guess what the guys at unc did just didn't surprise me a whole lot or bother me - i've seen stuff like this many times before.

now in terms of your specific comments, i'm shocked that you need links for something more serious than vandalism. well here are two, now please concede the absurdity of your position:
Duke LB Robs Man In Wheelchair (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/duke-lb-robs-man-in-wheelchair/)
Ex-Duke star Redick charged with drunken driving (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2006/news/story?id=2482061)

you've suggested my comments are illogical and evasive. you'll note that in 2 of my prior posts i've stated that unc's leadership has fallen short - thus, your "counterpoint" suggesting i should be upset by the lack of discipline is what is evasive and illogical.

You are right - you provided an example about where one could draw the line where i'd asked for one; i was too terse in my response to that. You are also correct that, in terms of my "outrage" over the vandalism, it really doesn't matter to me whether it is technically a felony vandalism or misdemeanor vandalism.

The Redick example borders on redickulous. He was no longer a Duke student, but that certainly does NOT excuse his conduct. He himself apologized. He posted bond. He lost his NC driving privileges for 30 days. I suspect there were other civil punishments too like court costs, legal fees, a fine and perhaps a driver's education course. Point being, there were consequences.

From unc, an apology from the AD and HC and agreement to pay for damages. Nothing from the players. Nothing from civil authorities. Pathetic. I really despise what they stand for/how they act over there but certainly don't think they should serve jail time for their jackass behavior. But, there needs to be punishment/consequences to their juvenile and damaging conduct.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-25-2014, 11:47 AM
Exactly.

As for UNC, part of it is the accumulation of stuff over the last few years that exhibit a lack of control or accountability. Let alone an effort or desire to curb these kinds of actions.

Jameis Winston yelling an obscenity on FSU's campus is not remarkable in and of itself. When viewed in conjunction with the pattern that is emerging, though, it is disturbing. And FSU sat him for an entire football game against their arguably most difficult challenge of the regular season -- at Death Valley in prime time.

It is a sad day when FSU is more responsible than UNC.

How about this.... can we circle back to something we agree on - that we are VERY happy to not be affiliated with either of these programs?

DukieInKansas
11-25-2014, 12:16 PM
I've heard it said that the best revenge is a life well lived. With the football team being recognized for their academic achievements (100% graduation rate for the 2007 freshman class), that is a big step in that life well lived for Duke football. It just helps point out the difference in the two programs and I'm grateful to be on the better shade of blue side.

I look forward to unc paying for the restoration of Duke property to its original state. Let them live with their actions.



Aside: I must admit to being a bad person and taking secret joy in unc not even hitting the 75% graduation mark with their 2007 class. It just goes to show the difference in the two programs. OK - so it isn't that secret of a joy. :o

devil84
11-25-2014, 12:49 PM
You are correct. bob blue devil's equating acts done by individuals with acts done by a large group acting as a team unit is a great example of false equivalency.

This.

This was a team, still in their uniforms, fresh off the playing field, with their coaches and other university officials nearby (and that supplied the paint). As a team, they vandalized a locker room beyond a little over-exuberance. There's no compare to players who ran afoul of the law and were punished and kicked off the team (or alumni who are no longer under the purview of the university). The comparison is to other groups who were on an official function representing their university. Like this (http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaf/2014/10/06/emails-wmu-football-team-trashed-idaho-lockers/16823181/). Or this (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-11-17/sports/chi-ohio-state-visitors-locker-room-20131117_1_southern-illinois-reilly-o-toole-v-angelo-bentley).

devilsadvocate85
11-25-2014, 01:40 PM
If a team, in an over the top, immature celebration acts out and as a group (since no one knows who it was) causes many thousands of dollars in damages to private property is considered to not have risen to a level requiring discipline; where pray tell is the line that would? Not expecting a sane answer, but I'd love to know!

Trinity_93
11-25-2014, 01:43 PM
I'm right there with y'all on never wanting to play Carolina again. They are cheaters. Worse, they are unrepentant cheaters who have yet to offer a sincere apology to anyone they have cheated. At the very least they ought to apologize to the athletes they cheated out of an education, at the very best they should apologize to their opponents whom they cheated out of a fair competition on the field.

I was discussing the idea of a boycott with a friend, here is how it ought to work:
* Tell UNC that you will no longer play them in an athletic event.
** If UNC shows up, refuse to take the field and forfeit. Don't give them the pleasure of winning.
** If UNC fails to show up, field your team and claim a W through their forfeit.

I would LOVE to see multiple teams boycott these holes. At the very least, tell UNC once they've given back their ill gotten gains and send their athletes to real classes you'll play them again.

With regards to everybody does...anyone recall the 6 or 7 NC State players that got suspended for a game because they decided to shoot some BB guns on campus? Anyone think Coach Doeren would let guys on the team get away with vandalizing a visitors locker room?

I have been considering suggesting this exact same proposal. Why play them again? Beating them gives no pleasure anymore, and just participating in their ongoing fraud makes me feel dirty.

UNC was the first game this year I didn't watch, and it'd be fine with me if that was the last game we ever played with them. I'd actually like very much to see us do what PackMan suggests -- if we're scheduled to play them, we just don't show up, for much the same reason Richard Dawkins turned down an evolution debate with an Earth-is-6000-years-old creationist, saying that the event "would look good on your CV, not so much on mine."

sandinmyshoes
11-25-2014, 02:32 PM
Laura Keely(sp) of the N&O tweeted a few minutes ago that she was in the locker room and there was no sign of damage. I have seen some posts saying that UNC was painted on one wall. Other than that it sounds like damage from over spray. Has anyone seen any photos of the damage anywhere on the internet? Unfortunately, I have learned over the years that our fans are just as guilty of looking for something, anything, to counter the anger we feel over getting beat. If it's not the refs, then fans tend to throw out accusations about "class" or other transgressions. Maybe I'm just old, but it seems to have gotten much worse with the infiltration of the internet into our lives.

jimsumner
11-25-2014, 02:49 PM
Apparently Duke does not wish to further embarrass our friends from down the road and is comfortable with letting the whole thing fade away.

OldPhiKap
11-25-2014, 02:51 PM
Apparently Duke does not wish to further embarrass our friends from down the road and is comfortable with letting the whole thing fade away.

Fair enough for me.

Beat Wake!

Grab a good bowl!

And goooooooooooo Wolfpack!

jv001
11-25-2014, 02:55 PM
Laura Keely(sp) of the N&O tweeted a few minutes ago that she was in the locker room and there was no sign of damage. I have seen some posts saying that UNC was painted on one wall. Other than that it sounds like damage from over spray. Has anyone seen any photos of the damage anywhere on the internet? Unfortunately, I have learned over the years that our fans are just as guilty of looking for something, anything, to counter the anger we feel over getting beat. If it's not the refs, then fans tend to throw out accusations about "class" or other transgressions. Maybe I'm just old, but it seems to have gotten much worse with the infiltration of the internet into our lives.

The only anger I felt over losing to Carolina was that we were beaten by a team that probably can't read or write. GoDuke!

BD80
11-25-2014, 03:03 PM
I doubt if it were WFU doing the vandalism this thread gets past 10 posts. Or even Boston College or some of the other teams that tend not to have negative news on a daily basis...let alone are our most hated rivals.

Can you even imagine the coaching staff or administration of WFU or BC allowing this sort of thing to happen without consequence?


... Richard Dawkins turned down an evolution debate with an Earth-is-6000-years-old creationist, saying that the event "would look good on your CV, not so much on mine."

And yet he hosted "Family Feud?" ;)

Furniture
11-25-2014, 03:08 PM
Laura Keely(sp) of the N&O tweeted a few minutes ago that she was in the locker room and there was no sign of damage. I have seen some posts saying that UNC was painted on one wall. Other than that it sounds like damage from over spray. Has anyone seen any photos of the damage anywhere on the internet? Unfortunately, I have learned over the years that our fans are just as guilty of looking for something, anything, to counter the anger we feel over getting beat. If it's not the refs, then fans tend to throw out accusations about "class" or other transgressions. Maybe I'm just old, but it seems to have gotten much worse with the infiltration of the internet into our lives.

I am old too then.

mpj96
11-25-2014, 03:33 PM
I hear what you're saying and agree to an extent. I respect the fact that UNC will pay in full to cleanup the mess. However, what really bothers me about this is how much is an apology an apology when you don't discipline the persons responsible for causing thousands of dollars in damage? IMO, the apologies of Fedora and Cunningham seem insincere when they (Fedora) publicly try to downplay the UNC players' actions and and no one is punished for their actions.

You are correct. It is not a real apology. They are not sorry. They are paying the fine and moving on. Our fans should too.


I'm relocating back to Durham with my family; and I, along with my family, will be at the Duke home games next year and the UNC-Duke game in Chapel Hill. I realize I need to step up my game to support the program; and if I can swing it, I'm going to go to their bowl game this year too.

Fantastic. Duke football games are a great way to spend a Saturday afternoon. I highly recommend the general admission package. $300 gets you 4 seats all season long.


This situation makes me realize we and the Duke program have to keep moving forward to earn respect; otherwise, crap like this will happen again.

They didn't spray paint because they lack respect for Duke. They spray painted because they won and we are their hated rivals. We win the game, they don't spray paint.

alteran
11-25-2014, 03:41 PM
Apparently Duke does not wish to further embarrass our friends from down the road and is comfortable with letting the whole thing fade away.

And I think they're right.

I don't mean to minimize this, it's pretty classless. Fedora did absolutely nothing about it (and might even have been there smiling when it happened). UNC tsked-tsked, NC taxpayers footed the bill, and there was not one drop of personal responsibility.

But what did we expect? This is who UNC is, folks-- and has been for quite some time. There is no definition of classless that UNC does not embrace.

Dog bites man, people. The news here is that it's not news at all.

flyingdutchdevil
11-25-2014, 03:45 PM
And I think they're right.

I don't mean to minimize this, it's pretty classless. Fedora did absolutely nothing about it (and might even have been there smiling when it happened). UNC tsked-tsked, NC taxpayers footed the bill, and there was not one drop of personal responsibility.

But what did we expect? This is who UNC is, folks-- and has been for quite some time. There is no definition of classless that UNC does not embrace.

Dog bites man, people. The news here is that it's not news at all.

Spork.

You've heard the joke, "You're like school in summer...No class." I'm modifying mine to, "You're like school in Chapel Hill...No class"

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-25-2014, 04:05 PM
Apparently Duke does not wish to further embarrass our friends from down the road and is comfortable with letting the whole thing fade away.

From Coach Cut's notes, they are moving on. Good enough for me.

UNC sure makes it easy to take the high road, don't they?

devildeac
11-25-2014, 04:40 PM
Crazies in CIS this MBB/WBB season:

Point at Duke bench: CLASS!

Point at unc bench: NO CLASS!

Repeat.

(forgive me if it's been done before:o)

Glad Duke is moving on. Does make me wonder/worry about the lack of consequences/punishment and what those jackasses might do next. As Stray said earlier in this thread something about pissing on the rules with impugnity. Pathetic.

DukieInKansas
11-25-2014, 04:42 PM
From Coach Cut's notes, they are moving on. Good enough for me.

UNC sure makes it easy to take the high road, don't they?

And you don't have to worry about being afraid of heights as it appears the high road doesn't even have to be very high to be above them. ;)

How sad that we now think that way of what once was a respected rival.

-jk
11-25-2014, 04:48 PM
Apparently Duke does not wish to further embarrass our friends from down the road and is comfortable with letting the whole thing fade away.

Sounds good to me...

-jk