MBB: Duke 74, Temple 54 Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here.

[duke4ever19]

Good type of "grind it out" game for the team to go through, meeting a tough physical team (even though they won by a good margin).
There will be more like that in the future.

Also, I'm glad to see Okafor settle in a bit more in the second half.

Looking forward to seeing Dawkins vs. K tomorrow!

[Henderson]

Winning by 20 when the shots aren't falling means other aspects of the game are functioning well. That's a good sign.

[jipops]

Good type of "grind it out" game for the team to go through. There will be more like that in the future.
Also, I'm glad to see Okafor settle in a bit more in the second half.

Looking forward to seeing Dawkins vs. K tomorrow!

Very satisfying. It takes a good team to win this type of game comfortably. Okafor showed maturity in the 2nd half. Quinn was a catalyst on the perimeter.

[53n206]

What do you think about our D? I like them.

[NYBri]

More Grayson, less Matt, pls.

Solid win when shots didn't fall.

[mo.st.dukie]

What do you think about our D? I like them.

It was great for much of the game. Once we got a big lead our guys got a little too relaxed and it resulted in Cummings slicing through the defense and getting too many points in the paint.

[toughbuff1]

I loved our defense. And Winslow plays with such confidence.

[Henderson]

K just called the defense, "outstanding," especially in the second half, noting that it carried the team when they couldn't make a shot. He sounds very upbeat about the game tonight.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

Winning by 20 when the shots aren't falling means other aspects of the game are functioning well. That's a good sign.

Agreed. Very similar to the '09/'10 season when we beat UConn in MSG handily despite a poor shooting performance.

This was a game we may not have won last year.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

My first good look at Duke this season...

Quick thoughts...
Solid at every position. No weakness.
Impatient on offense, but never behind so kept trying to put it away...and they did.
Cook seems to now be the Seth Curry of this team. He takes charge when it's needed.
Despite a tough game, Okafor looks to be as good as advertised to me. I think he needs to have Jefferson set him more screens to free him up down low so teams can't load up on him.
Tyus Jones looked pretty composed for a freshman, needs to take the lead more when the play gets ragged and settle them down.
Winslow looked good overall, like his aggressiveness.

[Furniture]

Good game. Not a great game but never in danger of losing. I thought the D was better in the first half...

[duketaylor]

Does anybody else think Winslow plays much like Shane? Very headsy bball on both ends.

[Clay Feet POF]

My first good look at Duke this season...


Tyus Jones looked pretty composed for a freshman, needs to take the lead more when the play gets ragged and settle them down.
.




I think he is deferring to Cook and Quinn is flourishing in that role. To me he seems to ready to take over if needed but is smart enough to know that this is Cook’s leadership role.

[Billy Dat]

Winning by 20 when the shots aren't falling means other aspects of the game are functioning well. That's a good sign.

Very satisfying. It takes a good team to win this type of game comfortably.

This was a game we may not have won last year.

I agree with these sentiments. This team seems as good offensively as some of the recent teams but also much better on defense, which is likely the primary difference.


It was great for much of the game. Once we got a big lead our guys got a little too relaxed and it resulted in Cummings slicing through the defense and getting too many points in the paint.

Yes, the only real bad stretch was from 7-4 minutes left in the game when we basically stopped playing on both ends. This team competes really hard on that end, and I credit Winslow for being the catalyst. The starting guards still get beat more than I would like, but with the big man lurking, Amile being solid and Winslow causing havok all over, we seem so improved and relishing stops.


Does anybody else think Winslow plays much like Shane? Very headsy bball on both ends.

I loved our defense. And Winslow plays with such confidence.

I agree he's heady, but his style doesn't remind me of Shane who always played very intellectual for lack of a better term. Winslow is smart, but the style is much more physically imposing. On the other end, I was so sad to only get one year of Jabari's rebound-and-lead-the-break routine but Justise is the heir apparent and his end-to-end runs have been the plays-of-the-game in the past 2 games. Plus, the kid just gets to the line! To me, he's been the most impressive player of the short season.


My first good look at Duke this season...
Quick thoughts...
Solid at every position. No weakness.
Impatient on offense, but never behind so kept trying to put it away...and they did.
Cook seems to now be the Seth Curry of this team. He takes charge when it's needed.
Despite a tough game, Okafor looks to be as good as advertised to me. I think he needs to have Jefferson set him more screens to free him up down low so teams can't load up on him.
Tyus Jones looked pretty composed for a freshman, needs to take the lead more when the play gets ragged and settle them down.
Winslow looked good overall, like his aggressiveness.

This is as close to a gush as I have seen from Wheat, a sure sign that this team is potentially a cut above recent vintages - or is it just that Wheat loves big man play so much? Either way, I think he makes a lot of good observations. Okafor had an off game for him, the Cook/Curry comp isn't bad - I hadn't thought of it but its interesting, and Jones assist numbers are nuts, and he unleashed several long passes on the break that were, dare I say, to give one back to Wheat - Kendall Marshall-esque? Marshall was great at that long, diagonal fast break pass that hit a man in stride around the foul line and Tyus threw a few of those today.

[Edouble]

Yes, the only real bad stretch was from 7-4 minutes left in the game when we basically stopped playing on both ends. This team competes really hard on that end, and I credit Winslow for being the catalyst. The starting guards still get beat more than I would like, but with the big man lurking, Amile being solid and Winslow causing havok all over, we seem so improved and relishing stops.

Meh, we did get off to a bad start. Although we were up by a comfortable margin (8 points or so), Coach K pulled all the starters. We could have been up by 16-17 if we had been playing with all out intensity to start the game, which is what we are going to have to do to win championships. Unless you have another explanation for Coach K pulling a Cal-swap.

I also wasn't crazy about the three-point-shooting-happy second unit's first appearance. Some of the shots were not great. Matt shot one wide open from the top of the key, but about six feet beyond the arc. Rasheed had a terrible dribble step back three point shot that he had no business taking.



I agree he's heady, but his style doesn't remind me of Shane who always played very intellectual for lack of a better term. Winslow is smart, but the style is much more physically imposing. On the other end, I was so sad to only get one year of Jabari's rebound-and-lead-the-break routine but Justise is the heir apparent and his end-to-end runs have been the plays-of-the-game in the past 2 games. Plus, the kid just gets to the line! To me, he's been the most impressive player of the short season.

This is as close to a gush as I have seen from Wheat, a sure sign that this team is potentially a cut above recent vintages - or is it just that Wheat loves big man play so much? Either way, I think he makes a lot of good observations. Okafor had an off game for him, the Cook/Curry comp isn't bad - I hadn't thought of it but its interesting, and Jones assist numbers are nuts, and he unleashed several long passes on the break that were, dare I say, to give one back to Wheat - Kendall Marshall-esque? Marshall was great at that long, diagonal fast break pass that hit a man in stride around the foul line and Tyus threw a few of those today.

Battier, Winslow is not. He's a two way guy, but from a completely different school, despite the fact that they are both Duke guys. To pull from the other thread, maybe a little more Ron Artest sans the issues upstairs.

I had the same thoughts of Jabari tonight with Winslow running the break. Jabari was a bit smoother. He tended to finish with a dunk or a strong layup, while I've noticed that Justise will sometimes finish with a harder delivery that smacks off the glass and makes my stomach drop for a second, often while he is fading to the baseline.

Wheat loves big men and Okafor has earned the hype. He did have an off night: 7-20, 8 boards, 2 blocks, and a steal. What an off night! He'll probably end up more in the area of 12 to 14 for 20 with more than two foul shots for a game.

[trinity92]

Haven't seen the box score yet, but Marshall had one of his better games, with several blocks and a bunch of meaningful minutes spelling Jah. I would be absolutely overjoyed to see him contribute like this on a more regular basis.

[Billy Dat]

Meh, we did get off to a bad start. Although we were up by a comfortable margin (8 points or so), Coach K pulled all the starters. We could have been up by 16-17 if we had been playing with all out intensity to start the game, which is what we are going to have to do to win championships. Unless you have another explanation for Coach K pulling a Cal-swap.

I thought the D was pretty good all game save for that stretch I identified, and I agree that we didn't come out as well on offense. But, I thought the Cal platoon swap was planned as a way to make sure he didn't overuse guys knowing we had to play back-to-back games on top of an already heavy cumulative load this week.

I love that Artest/Winslow comp!

[sagegrouse]

I thought the D was pretty good all game save for that stretch I identified, and I agree that we didn't come out as well on offense. But, I thought the Cal platoon swap was planned as a way to make sure he didn't overuse guys knowing we had to play back-to-back games on top of an already heavy cumulative load this week.

I love that Artest/Winslow comp!


Well, that's one explanation. The other is that K the Leopard has changed his spots and will play all ten players this year. So far, the low men are Semi and Marshall, averaging 9.3 and 12.5 MPG respectively. As far as I can tell, nine players have played really well and earned time on the floor. Grayson was a concern for some of you, but it looks like he is a really good player that will only improve. Marshall is a serious college center that will help us all season. Semi is the weak spot; he is forcing things on offense, and making some silly fouls on defense. He needs time on the floor to settle down -- we'll see if K agrees with that sentiment.

[mpj96]

Meh, we did get off to a bad start. Although we were up by a comfortable margin (8 points or so), Coach K pulled all the starters. We could have been up by 16-17 if we had been playing with all out intensity to start the game, which is what we are going to have to do to win championships. Unless you have another explanation for Coach K pulling a Cal swap

We've swapped out the starting 5 at 5 minutes in every game this year except Mich. St. that I recall.

[jv001]

More Grayson, less Matt, pls.

Solid win when shots didn't fall.

I'm not going that far, but Grayson has impressed me on defense. I thought it was all about offense with him, but he can move his feet and plays pretty good defense. But I don't see Grayson taking Rasheed or Matt's minutes, well, not right now anyway. I would like to see Matt improve his stroke, but I guess Coach K is fine with it, and that's what counts. GoDuke!

[roywhite]

I'm not going that far, but Grayson has impressed me on defense. I thought it was all about offense with him, but he can move his feet and plays pretty good defense. But I don't see Grayson taking Rasheed or Matt's minutes, well, not right now anyway. I would like to see Matt improve his stroke, but I guess Coach K is fine with it, and that's what counts. GoDuke!

Agree; like what I see from Grayson so far. He does move well on defense and seems to be able to stay in front of his man pretty well (which is still an issue for Cook, I'm afraid), and get through screens. His outside shot looks better than that of Matt Jones, so we'll see how that goes, too.

[jv001]

Agree; like what I see from Grayson so far. He does move well on defense and seems to be able to stay in front of his man pretty well (which is still an issue for Cook, I'm afraid), and get through screens. His outside shot looks better than that of Matt Jones, so we'll see how that goes, too.

See, Winston Salem fans know a diamond in the rough when they see one, lol. GoDuke!

[Kedsy]

Does anybody else think Winslow plays much like Shane? Very headsy bball on both ends.

Shane? Haven't you heard? He's Dwyane Wade, Larry Johnson, and a "homeless man's LeBron," all wrapped into one.

[Kedsy]

We've swapped out the starting 5 at 5 minutes in every game this year except Mich. St. that I recall.

And in the Mich St game, he swapped out four of the five at the same point in the game.

[CDu]

Well, that's one explanation. The other is that K the Leopard has changed his spots and will play all ten players this year. So far, the low men are Semi and Marshall, averaging 9.3 and 12.5 MPG respectively. As far as I can tell, nine players have played really well and earned time on the floor. Grayson was a concern for some of you, but it looks like he is a really good player that will only improve. Marshall is a serious college center that will help us all season. Semi is the weak spot; he is forcing things on offense, and making some silly fouls on defense. He needs time on the floor to settle down -- we'll see if K agrees with that sentiment.

In the two games against real opposition, Allen and Ojeleye have averaged just 3.5 mpg each. Neither has topped 6 minutes in either of those games. And for the season both are already averaging below 10 mpg despite half of our games being 50-point blowouts. So I am far from convinced by the "leopard has changed his spots" argument. I think I would hold off from pushing that argument at least until we have a single close-ish game in which more that 8 guys top 10 minutes played.

And I don't think anyone is concerned about Allen's talent. It is just that he is 6th in the perimeter pecking order and Coach K historically only goes 5 deep there.until he beats out Matt Jones, I think we will continue to see Allen play a very limited number of minutes in closer games.

[Kedsy]

Well, that's one explanation. The other is that K the Leopard has changed his spots and will play all ten players this year. So far, the low men are Semi and Marshall, averaging 9.3 and 12.5 MPG respectively. As far as I can tell, nine players have played really well and earned time on the floor. Grayson was a concern for some of you, but it looks like he is a really good player that will only improve. Marshall is a serious college center that will help us all season. Semi is the weak spot; he is forcing things on offense, and making some silly fouls on defense. He needs time on the floor to settle down -- we'll see if K agrees with that sentiment.

Any spot changing you're seeing is wishful thinking. In the last two games, Grayson has averaged 4 mpg and Semi has averaged 2.5 mpg.

As others have noted, K has done a line change 4 or 5 minutes into every game, and I hope that continues, but we're going to have the same 7 or 8 man rotation we always have.

I thought Grayson played great against Temple in his brief game action. He had one defensive sequence that really impressed me. But I don't think he'll supplant either Rasheed or Matt in the rotation.

I didn't think Semi played poorly at all, though. His shots seemed like good shots, they just didn't go in.

I will say that right now the starting five is light years better than the second five. In a tight game, K would almost have to play them as many minutes as they can handle.

Temple wasn't very good, but they were very big, with a starting SG standing 6'7". Yet we kept them from taking advantage if that huge height disparity. I believe Stanford has similar size. Hopefully, our D will have similar success.

[dukejim1]

I'm not going that far, but Grayson has impressed me on defense. I thought it was all about offense with him, but he can move his feet and plays pretty good defense. But I don't see Grayson taking Rasheed or Matt's minutes, well, not right now anyway. I would like to see Matt improve his stroke, but I guess Coach K is fine with it, and that's what counts. GoDuke!

I felt like Rasheed took a step back in fitting in with this team. His decision making was not good and there was a return to last year's body language issues. It is a big adjustment for him plus there might have been some lingering effects from his bug. That being said at this point Matt seems like the better option for first 2G off the bench and Cook needs to be the only one giving Tyus a breather at PG. Four games in I don't believe we see the huge holes in team performance that we have seen in recent years. Much more balanced group between inside and outside, and offense and defense. It is easier to see how this team will carry the tradition of our better teams of never losing to teams with lesser talent and always competing with the few teams of equal or greater talent. They will become battle tested with our schedule and that should bode well for a better end of season performance.

[Bob Green]

That being said at this point Matt seems like the better option for first 2G off the bench and Cook needs to be the only one giving Tyus a breather at PG.

Rasheed Sulaimon is explosive with the ball in his hands so hopefully he sees action running the point at times.

[roywhite]

Rasheed Sulaimon is explosive with the ball in his hands so hopefully he sees action running the point at times.

Well, okay, we have seen that, but last night Sheed looked like what you DON'T want your Point Guard to look -- bad decisions, got up in the air without a clear idea of what he was going to do, didn't finish well, and displayed poor body language. He's a junior, so we would hope he'd get past some of his bad habits.

IMO Tyus Jones looks terrific at PG -- a pass first mentality, knows where his teammates are, very sure ball handler, and keeps an even temperament. I'd like to see him get as many minutes at the point as he can handle, with Cook next in the rotation. Not to say Rasheed can't earn some time there, but last night was not a good example for him.

[elvis14]

As others have mentioned this was a game where were were not 'on'. So we beat Temple by 20 on an off night. That's pretty sweet. Hopefully we are sharper against Stanford tonight. This was a game where I didn't feel like there was a great individual performance. It was more of a game where everybody pitched in along the way and we just ground Temple down and out.

Some random thoughts about the game:

- The line change didn't work very well tonight. The second unit came in and did nothing. Coach K really got on to them at the next timeout.
- Marshall is doing a pretty good job when Big Jah goes to the bench. Specifically, I like Marshall's defense. He's active and disruptive.
- Rasheed didn't play very well tonight. I'm concerned that he's just a bit lost. Hope he finds his way soon.
- Even though he had an off shooting night, I like that Okafor took more shots.
- Cook is doing a great job of leading this team and steadying the others when times get tough.
- I love how aggressive Justise is in the open court. Reminds me of Jabari in that regard.
- A couple of times our bigs (both Okafor and MP3) threw great outlet passes after coming down with defensive rebounds. Hope to see more of that!

The cool thing is that we don't have to wait very long since we get to see them play again tonight.

[Saratoga2]

As others have mentioned this was a game where were were not 'on'. So we beat Temple by 20 on an off night. That's pretty sweet. Hopefully we are sharper against Stanford tonight. This was a game where I didn't feel like there was a great individual performance. It was more of a game where everybody pitched in along the way and we just ground Temple down and out.

Some random thoughts about the game:

- The line change didn't work very well tonight. The second unit came in and did nothing. Coach K really got on to them at the next timeout.
- Marshall is doing a pretty good job when Big Jah goes to the bench. Specifically, I like Marshall's defense. He's active and disruptive.
- Rasheed didn't play very well tonight. I'm concerned that he's just a bit lost. Hope he finds his way soon.
- Even though he had an off shooting night, I like that Okafor took more shots.
- Cook is doing a great job of leading this team and steadying the others when times get tough.
- I love how aggressive Justise is in the open court. Reminds me of Jabari in that regard.
- A couple of times our bigs (both Okafor and MP3) threw great outlet passes after coming down with defensive rebounds. Hope to see more of that!

The cool thing is that we don't have to wait very long since we get to see them play again tonight.

I really thought Quinn had an excellent game and showed leadership and confidence. His best game so far this year.
Tyus is an excellent PG who finds the open man and doesn't make a lot of mistakes. He makes some, but very good out there.
Justise is definitely a starter and a guy who should get as many minutes as he can handle. Physical presence, skill and toughness.
Jahlil didn't have his best, but it was still pretty darn good. He was facing size and athleticism. Probably a little new to him to match up against equal size.
Marshall is doing a fine job out there in the backup position and we don't lose on defense with him out there.
Rasheed hasn't come back to his better level as yet. I think he looked lost out there. Didn't seem to have it, missing he free throws, being out of control, fouling, etc.
I would rate both Matt and Grayson ahead of Rasheed at this point.
Amile was fairly good out there but maybe he can work more effectively with Jahlil on offense inside

Good effort last night but we face a tougher test tonight. The guys will be tired as will Stanford so I hope it doesn't get sloppy.

[Kedsy]

Marshall is doing a fine job out there in the backup position and we don't lose on defense with him out there.

Marshall played well last night. But I think we lose plenty with him out there instead of Jahlil. Opposing players seem to be much more intimidated by Jahlil than they are of Marshall.



Good effort last night but we face a tougher test tonight.

I expect Stanford will be better than Temple, and there's the Johnny D factor to reckon with, but it's not like we're facing Arizona out there. Before Stanford crushed UNLV, they beat Wofford by 15 and South Dakota by 11.

[Furniture]

Well, okay, we have seen that, but last night Sheed looked like what you DON'T want your Point Guard to look -- bad decisions, got up in the air without a clear idea of what he was going to do, didn't finish well, and displayed poor body language. He's a junior, so we would hope he'd get past some of his bad habits.

IMO Tyus Jones looks terrific at PG -- a pass first mentality, knows where his teammates are, very sure ball handler, and keeps an even temperament. I'd like to see him get as many minutes at the point as he can handle, with Cook next in the rotation. Not to say Rasheed can't earn some time there, but last night was not a good example for him.

Plenty of game time for Tysus is a investment for experience and time for Sheed is an investment in getting him back on track and finding his role. Both excellent investments...

[mgtr]

In the four real games we have played, M. Jones has not shown much, but apparently Coach loves him. So, either Coach sees stuff in the game that I do not (very likely!), or Matt does really great in practice, and just hasn't carried it over to the game. Or, I guess, both. Rasheed -- who knows what thoughts lurk in the heart of that man?

[77devil]

I'd like to see him get as many minutes at the point as he can handle, with Cook next in the rotation.

Quinn has the most minutes on the team and I expect this will continue. We all know how Coach K values senior leadership especially in crunch time. Further, Quinn has been left on the floor when the "second line" minus Grayson is playing, or with Winslow when Semi and Grayson are sitting. I suspect Quinn is better conditioned than Tyus to play more minutes.

[ACCBBallFan]

Quinn has the most minutes on the team and I expect this will continue. We all know how Coach K values senior leadership especially in crunch time. Further, Quinn has been left on the floor when the "second line" minus Grayson is playing, or with Winslow when Semi and Grayson are sitting. I suspect Quinn is better conditioned than Tyus to play more minutes.

SCACCHoops box score was off in both Minutes and +/- so I relied on

http://www.sidearmstats.com/liubrooklyn/mbball/media/

but it vanishes at end of game and is now set up for Teple vs. UNLV.

From the screen shot I took.

Min Reb Ast TO Blk Stl PF EFF Pts Name
33 5 1 2 0 2 2 17 17 Q. Cook
27 8 1 2 2 1 2 13 16 J. Okafor
29 5 7 1 0 3 1 13 05 T. Jomes
31 8 1 0 1 0 3 13 08 A. Jefferson
28 4 1 1 0 1 3 13 15 J. Winslow
11 5 1 1 2 2 0 11 02 M. Plumlee
16 0 2 0 0 0 0 03 03 M. Jones
14 2 0 2 0 0 3 -4 02 R. Sulaimon
06 0 0 0 0 0 0 05 06 G. Allen
05 0 0 0 0 0 2 -2 00 S. Ojeleye

I am assuming what they label as EFF is the same as +/-

YTD min YTD +/- Player
106 78 Tyus Jones *
122 76 Quinn Cook *
050 73 Marshall Plumlee
107 69 Jahlil Okafor *
070 67 Matt Jones
105 60 Justise Winslow *
38 59 Grayson Allen
92 58 Amile Jefferson *
62 51 Rasheed Sulaimon
36 40 Semi Ojeleye

[Edouble]

In the four real games we have played, M. Jones has not shown much, but apparently Coach loves him. So, either Coach sees stuff in the game that I do not (very likely!), or Matt does really great in practice, and just hasn't carried it over to the game. Or, I guess, both. Rasheed -- who knows what thoughts lurk in the heart of that man?

Interesting you should bring up Rasheed at the end of a post regarding Matt underwhelming you.

So, we had two guards off the bench that basically played equal (~15) minutes last night.

First guy: 1-3 from the field (all 3 point shots) for 3 points, 2 assists, 0 turnovers, 0 personal fouls

Second guy: 1-5 from the field (0-1 from beyond the arc) for 2 points, 0-2 from the line, 2 rebounds, but 2 turnovers and 3 personal fouls

Which player's minutes are you happier with? You don't have to be Coach K to see that the first player is giving you a little more in the game than the second guy. Now if you want to argue that Grayson should get more minutes that's another thing, but it's hard to see how you can cut Matt's ("First guy") minutes and give them to Rasheed ("Second guy"). Matt, for all the hand wringing over his shot from beyond the arc, did shoot 33% for 3 last night and got 2 dimes w/no turnovers.

[jv001]

Interesting you should bring up Rasheed at the end of a post regarding Matt underwhelming you.

So, we had two guards off the bench that basically played equal (~15) minutes last night.

First guy: 1-3 from the field (all 3 point shots) for 3 points, 2 assists, 0 turnovers, 0 personal fouls

Second guy: 1-5 from the field (0-1 from beyond the arc) for 2 points, 0-2 from the line, 2 rebounds, but 2 turnovers and 3 personal fouls

Which player's minutes are you happier with? You don't have to be Coach K to see that the first player is giving you a little more in the game than the second guy. Now if you want to argue that Grayson should get more minutes that's another thing, but it's hard to see how you can cut Matt's ("First guy") minutes and give them to Rasheed ("Second guy"). Matt, for all the hand wringing over his shot from beyond the arc, did shoot 33% for 3 last night and got 2 dimes w/no turnovers.

But in all fairness, I think we need to look at the full body of work, which includes last season's stats. Matt was terrible from 3 and not good at foul shooting either. I agree that he's a very good defender and he doesn't turn the ball over. You have a good point in comparing all three wing guards, Grayson, Sheed and Matt. I'm thinking Coach K is giving all three minutes up to the ACC schedule. I'm not even going into the transfer conversation. Way too early to reflect on that. GoDuke!

[Henderson]

But in all fairness, I think we need to look at the full body of work, which includes last season's stats. Matt was terrible from 3 and not good at foul shooting either. I agree that he's a very good defender and he doesn't turn the ball over. You have a good point in comparing all three wing guards, Grayson, Sheed and Matt. I'm thinking Coach K is giving all three minutes up to the ACC schedule. I'm not even going into the transfer conversation. Way too early to reflect on that. GoDuke!

Oh, Lordy.

[jv001]

Oh, Lordy.

You know it will be brought sooner than later, ha ha. GoDuke!

[DukieInBrasil]

Although Jahlil's FG% was pretty underwhelming, it's a great sign that he got 7 Oboards. Otherwise, over the year so far, i have been pretty underwhelmed with his rebounding.
Despite Tyus's poor FG shooting, our combo guard PG Quinn Jones still had a pretty excellent game: 7-19 FG (~37% = meh), 4-12 3FG (33% = ok), 4-4 FT (100%= as good as it gets), 10rebs (from the PG spot? I'll take that!), 8 assists vs 3 turns (i'll take that too, thankyouverymuch) plus 5 steals (!!!).
I like what both Jefferson and Winslow provided.
Marshall's performance in relief of Okafor was very impressive.
Allen's performance seemed quite solid, even for its brevity, and Matt Jones's play decent if understated.
The rest of the bench was stench, in particular Sulaimon. I hope he turns it around soon, the guy has too much talent to play this poorly against bad to mediocre teams. Maybe he hasn't fully recovered from the illness?

I'm glad that Dawkins has Stanford on the right track, i just hope that Duke crushes them tonight!!!

[mgtr]

Interesting you should bring up Rasheed at the end of a post regarding Matt underwhelming you.

So, we had two guards off the bench that basically played equal (~15) minutes last night.

First guy: 1-3 from the field (all 3 point shots) for 3 points, 2 assists, 0 turnovers, 0 personal fouls

Second guy: 1-5 from the field (0-1 from beyond the arc) for 2 points, 0-2 from the line, 2 rebounds, but 2 turnovers and 3 personal fouls

Which player's minutes are you happier with? You don't have to be Coach K to see that the first player is giving you a little more in the game than the second guy. Now if you want to argue that Grayson should get more minutes that's another thing, but it's hard to see how you can cut Matt's ("First guy") minutes and give them to Rasheed ("Second guy"). Matt, for all the hand wringing over his shot from beyond the arc, did shoot 33% for 3 last night and got 2 dimes w/no turnovers.

I agree about Matt > Rasheed, although I was not trying to make that point. We know that Rasheed can be very good, just not yet this season. Hopefully he has a repeat of last season, where he eventually gets things figured out.

[OldPhiKap]

Great article on K and Dumphy, thanks Jay Bilas for tweeting the link:

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/feature/24826459/bond-beyond-basketball

[Tripping William]

Great article on K and Dumphy, thanks Jay Bilas for tweeting the link:

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/feature/24826459/bond-beyond-basketball

Yes; this is the the one to which I referred earlier, but was unable to link. A great read. Thanks for finding & posting the link.

[weezie]

Speaking of the Hair thread, K had quite the mop himself all those years ago!

[FireOgilvie]

Points per minute (through 4 games):

Grayson Allen 0.87
Jahlil Okafor 0.64
J Winslow 0.60
Quinn Cook 0.55
Tyus Jones 0.41
A Jefferson 0.36
Matt Jones 0.34
M Plumlee 0.30
Semi Ojeleye 0.28
R Sulaimon 0.27

Grayson Allen is putting up crazy numbers. Not saying he should start or anything, but it's impressive. Instant offense.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Points per minute (through 4 games):

Grayson Allen 0.87
Jahlil Okafor 0.64
J Winslow 0.60
Quinn Cook 0.55
Tyus Jones 0.41
A Jefferson 0.36
Matt Jones 0.34
M Plumlee 0.30
Semi Ojeleye 0.28
R Sulaimon 0.27

Grayson Allen is putting up crazy numbers. Not saying he should start or anything, but it's impressive. Instant offense.

Is Allen going to be this season's MP3?

[MChambers]

I agree about Matt > Rasheed, although I was not trying to make that point. We know that Rasheed can be very good, just not yet this season. Hopefully he has a repeat of last season, where he eventually gets things figured out.
I think you're jumping to erroneous conclusions about Rasheed. First of all, he was very sick in game #3, and probably affected by it still in game #4. Second, he's being asked to fill a very different role than the other guards. He's the guard asked to harass the other team's point guard more than anyone else. He's also the best offensive player on the second unit, so he has to try to create offense.

I think he's done a decent job this year, and I expect we'll see better as the year goes on.

[Troublemaker]

Matt played well against Temple outside of losing his man on the backdoor once. Not sure why he's received criticism in this thread. He's also been a good shooter this season.

Look, we have 6 perimeter players who can all play well. Each of us will have our own preference for the ordering of those 6, especially players 4 thru 6.

I think we can all agree that Grayson is overqualified to be a 6th perimeter player. But so would Matt be overqualified for that role, and so would Sheed, etc.

There's no need to denigrate one good player to boost another good player that you prefer.

[Ultrarunner]

Marshall played well last night. But I think we lose plenty with him out there instead of Jahlil. Opposing players seem to be much more intimidated by Jahlil than they are of Marshall.

Since Marshall is blocking shots at a rate fifty percent higher than Jahlil, I can't say this bothers much. If the opposition wants to challenge Marshall, he seems quite prepared for it. As a bonus, he is much better, as he should be, at nailing down the defensive rotations.

[Edouble]

Matt played well against Temple outside of losing his man on the backdoor once. Not sure why he's received criticism in this thread. He's also been a good shooter this season.

Look, we have 6 perimeter players who can all play well. Each of us will have our own preference for the ordering of those 6, especially players 4 thru 6.

I think we can all agree that Grayson is overqualified to be a 6th perimeter player. But so would Matt be overqualified for that role, and so would Sheed, etc.

There's no need to denigrate one good player to boost another good player that you prefer.

Although I posted in this thread earlier today attempting to show how Matt's numbers were more valuable to us than Sheed's in the Temple game, I have to say... WOW! I do not think I have seen anyone around here denigrating Matt!

A few people have said something along the lines of "I don't see it", or "I don't get it" (with regard to Matt's defense and overall play being better than the other perimeter bench players) and a few folks have asked for more minutes for Grayson. But to say that people have denigrated Matt is a stretch, I think.

It has been pointed out how Matt came to Duke with a big time shooter's rep and hasn't delivered so far, but I don't think too far from the truth. I would not consider such comments to be in the realm of denigration.

[ACCBBallFan]

I will say that right now the starting five is light years better than the second five. In a tight game, K would almost have to play them as many minutes as they can handle.


That's mostly due to big Jah and Justise.

A lineup with Jah - Justise - Sheed - Grayson and Matt has a nice combination of defense and offense, and disparity no longer measured in light years.

Problem is not all the starting unit (not Jah and not Justise) rests at same time

So if the second unit of MP3 - Semi - Sheed - Grayson and Matt can just tire the non top 25 opponent (assuming that is one that meets your criteria of close game) without giving up too much on +/-, that's all they can reasonably be expected to do, not to increase the lead, just don't give it all back.

Any fouls MP3 draws on starting center or Sheed/Grayson draw on drives past their guard is just a bonus.

The starters return fresh against a tired opponent, kind of like how body blows take their toll on boxers in later rounds.

Being primary options on second five helps Sheed and Grayson (since they are no longer preventing big Jah and Tyus from having ball in their hands) but hurts Matt who gels better with starters. The game for MP3 and for Semi is what it is and not much difference regardless of who they are paired with.

Coach K's goal is not to equalize the two units but if it were, going back to Duke Blue J-Crew vs.non top 25 teams:

Jah
Jefferson
Justise
Jones, M
Jones T

and

MP3
Semi
Sheed
Grayson
Quinn

gives the second unit what it is missing the most a PG, does not hurt Quinn's shoot first role and helps Matt's effectiveness.

Jefferson, Justise and Jones 2 (Thing 2) are perfect complementary players to big Jah and Tyus since the former 3 do not need the ball a lot to be effective. However same is true for Quinn the SG who plays more like Tyus the assist machine except he shoots more than when Quinn is the PG and shoots more than Tyus the pass first PG.

With way Quinn is playing SG, no reason to swap Matt/Quinn other than does not matter against teams like Furman, Army, Elon etc but not Wisky or UCONN.

The second unit gets PT versus lower echelon teams without disrupting the first unit chemistry with Quinn/Matt interchangeable.

Against top 25, MP3 and Matt easily fit into top 7, with court still out on Sheed's ability to adapt his role depending on who he is paired with but likely in top 8 regardless and not much if any PT for Semi or Grayson not as much due to them but rather to who is ahead of them.

[Henderson]

Points per minute (through 4 games):

Grayson Allen 0.87
Jahlil Okafor 0.64
J Winslow 0.60
Quinn Cook 0.55
Tyus Jones 0.41
A Jefferson 0.36
Matt Jones 0.34
M Plumlee 0.30
Semi Ojeleye 0.28
R Sulaimon 0.27

Grayson Allen is putting up crazy numbers. Not saying he should start or anything, but it's impressive. Instant offense.

That's either a very interesting set of stats or a reflection of the weakness of relying heavily on stats in analyzing basketball.

[ACCBBallFan]

That's either a very interesting set of stats or a reflection of the weakness of relying heavily on stats in analyzing basketball. Other than Grayson who racks his points in end of game situations and taking technical foul shots when subbing in, that's not a bad measure of how effective the Duke players have been

Jahlil Okafor 0.64 because his mere presence changes everything
J Winslow 0.60 because he has been great on both ends
Quinn Cook 0.55 playing so much better as a senior leader
Tyus Jones 0.41 who gets teammates involved and can take over when needed
A Jefferson 0.36 glue guy
Matt Jones 0.34 by default and hitting shots he missed last year, also taking it to hoop more

(insert Sheed here)

M Plumlee 0.30 hustles as Jah's repalcement

(insert Grayson here)

Semi Ojeleye 0.28 apparently his role is to be the gunner when in and sanctioned by coach K since that's his role against Amile in practice

R Sulaimon 0.27 has not yet let game come to him. May also indicate he's doing what K asks, play defense more than offense and why he is ahead of MP3 and Semi in rotation

Due to minimal PT metrics are skewed, Grayson probably belongs between MP3 and Semi.

[Henderson]

Other than Grayson who racks his points in end of game situations and taking technical foul shots when subbing in, that's not a bad measure of how effective the Duke players have been.

I think you may have missed some of the games. This is not an accurate description of Grayson Allen's contributions.



Jahlil Okafor 0.64 because his mere presence changes everything
J Winslow 0.60 because he has been great on both ends
Quinn Cook 0.55 playing so much better as a senior leader
Tyus Jones 0.41 who gets teammates involved and can take over when needed
A Jefferson 0.36 glue guy
Matt Jones 0.34 by default and hitting shots he missed last year, also taking it to hoop more

(insert Sheed here)

M Plumlee 0.30 hustles as Jah's repalcement

(insert Grayson here)

Semi Ojeleye 0.28 apparently his role is to be the gunner when in and sanctioned by coach K since that's his role against Amile in practice

R Sulaimon 0.27 has not yet let game come to him. May also indicate he's doing what K asks, play defense more than offense and why he is ahead of MP3 and Semi in rotation

Due to minimal PT metrics are skewed, Grayson probably belongs between MP3 and Semi.

I think fantasy sports have skewed things a bit. We've all read Moneyball, but you can't coach a team based purely on statistics. At least not college basketball. There's just a lot more going on.

[ACCBBallFan]

I think you may have missed some of the games. This is not an accurate description of Grayson Allen's contributions.

Not sure what you are getting at, I did not say Grayson is Duke's best player, Had him at #9 on overall effectiveness since his contributions were usually after game had been decided.

I have not missed any games.

My point was that Graysin being at the top was only one really out of whack with reality, though I do really like his game. It's just that he has Quinn, Jones 1, Jones 2 (Thing 1, Thing 2) Matt and not necessarily on this year's metrics Sheed ahead of him, as you can see in the second quote you attached.

I generously placed Sheed up a few notches, ahead of MP3 and probably should have had him behind MP3.

Here are the YTD +/- as opposed to points per minute where Grayson is #8, Sheed #9 and Semi #10 which explains why K had gone with others in his top 7. He has shown some favoritism of Rasheed over Grayson based on experience and past performance not this year's as well as Sheed's dramatic turnaround last season.

YTD min YTD +/- Player

132 95 Tyus Jones *
161 89 Quinn Cook *
141 81 Jahlil Okafor *

55 74 Marshall Plumlee
88 66 Matt Jones

140 63 Justise Winslow *
116 63 Amile Jefferson *

38 59 Grayson Allen

81 41 Rasheed Sulaimon
36 40 Semi Ojeleye