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JasonEvans
11-08-2014, 12:19 AM
Boom goes the dynamite. (http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/07/us/unc-academic-scandal/index.html?hpt=hp_t2)

Former football player Michael McAdoo has filed suit claiming Carolina did not provide him with the education he was promised. He says he wanted to be a Criminal Justice major but was told upon arrival on campus that he could only pick from certain select majors (one of which happened to be AFAM) and that his courses were already selected for him, including several fake AFAM classes. The suit is being handled by both a NC firm and one in DC -- if there are a lot of lawyers involved, you can bet they are expecting a big money payout. Toward that end, the suit is filled as a class action on behalf of any of the 3100 athletes who want to join.

Of course, what really matters is this...




McAdoo's lawsuit could potentially uncover even more than the damning Wainstein investigation, which was by far the most thorough and provided a slew of information that had previously been discounted by UNC.

The difference is in the power of subpoena.

McAdoo's lawyers will be able to depose people who declined to talk to Wainstein -- potentially key participants whom Wainstein called out for refusing to cooperate, like the former director of football Cynthia Reynolds and the former interim head football coach Everett Withers.

-Jason "like I said, BOOM GOES THE DYNAMITE" Evans

P.S. - Major new development, so I gave it a new thread. We will merge this with the other Wainstein thread in a few days

moonpie23
11-08-2014, 12:28 AM
OK!!! Now we're talking......

Subpoena power!!!!!!! yeah.....deposition........say it out loud...DEPOSITION...

discovery...



oath.....


yeah.....

popcorn ready...

CameronBlue
11-08-2014, 12:30 AM
Boom goes the dynamite. (http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/07/us/unc-academic-scandal/index.html?hpt=hp_t2)

Former player James Michael McAdoo has filed suit claiming Carolina did not provide him with the education he was promised. He says he wanted to be a Criminal Justice major but was told upon arrival on campus that he could only pick from certain select majors (one of which happened to be AFAM) and that his courses were already selected for him, including several fake AFAM classes. The suit is being handled by both a NC firm and one in DC -- if there are a lot of lawyers involved, you can bet they are expecting a big money payout. Toward that end, the suit is filled as a class action on behalf of any of the 3100 athletes who want to join.

Of course, what really matters is this...



-Jason "like I said, BOOM GOES THE DYNAMITE" Evans

P.S. - Major new development, so I gave it a new thread. We will merge this with the other Wainstein thread in a few days

Am I mistaken or are you confusing McAdoos?

El_Diablo
11-08-2014, 12:31 AM
Wrong McAdoo. But still....YIKES.

subzero02
11-08-2014, 12:32 AM
Wow... It'll be interesting to see which players from the various sports join the lawsuit. I honestly hope this scandal doesn't cast to large a shadow on this ACC basketball season in general.

CameronBlue
11-08-2014, 12:39 AM
Rashad McCants COME ON DOWN!! Ironic. Usually legal action precedes time in prison.

OldPhiKap
11-08-2014, 02:22 AM
i bet that Roy's not in the daggum deposition-giving spirit.

martydoesntfoul
11-08-2014, 03:04 AM
Wow. This takes things to a whole other level. Told he could only select from three majors? And then this:

"When the coaches and academic staff came to my house all the way in Tennessee, you know they, they wasn't even talking football, they was talking academics," he told CNN earlier this year. "So they were saying, 'You know what, we can't promise your son that he's going to go to the NFL, but one thing that we can promise him is that he will get a college degree.'

Again, this is why Roy will likely not survive... you just can't have it both ways.

OldPhiKap
11-08-2014, 03:08 AM
^^^ to be fair, that was Butch Davis's staff and not Roy's.

I would love to see a copy of the actual lawsuit, not logging on to get it from the Court at 3 in the am but I assume that someone will put it on the web.

BigWayne
11-08-2014, 03:17 AM
Wow. This takes things to a whole other level. Told he could only select from three majors? And then this:

"When the coaches and academic staff came to my house all the way in Tennessee, you know they, they wasn't even talking football, they was talking academics," he told CNN earlier this year. "So they were saying, 'You know what, we can't promise your son that he's going to go to the NFL, but one thing that we can promise him is that he will get a college degree.'

Again, this is why Roy will likely not survive... you just can't have it both ways.

I'm pretty sure this was in the video shown about 6 months ago, but it will get a lot more notice and credibility now post-Wainstein.

He gives the NCAA the guideposts of where else to look besides the AFAM department. Exercise and Sport Science and Communications.

OldPhiKap
11-08-2014, 03:38 AM
Three points during my period of insomnia:

1. The Willingham suit is probably more dangerous to UNC than this one. Class actions often settle; whistleblower cases have plaintiffs who are often fighting to restore their good names (such as here). Money cures the first kind of case, vindication the second. So she is much more likely to go to trial or at least summary judgment, where the relevant deposition transcripts and subpoenaed documents will be filed publicly. She WANTS her day in open court: that is the purpose of the lawsuit. Class actions by contrast typically just want relief of some sort, which may have a public component but then again may not.

2. Typically, in Federal Court, defendants can file a motion to dismiss in lieu of an answer. That raises the possibility that discovery may not even get off the ground for quite some time. Lots of discretion with the judge.

3. I wonder whether the new suit is a verified complaint, which is tantamount to an affidavit. If there is essentially an affidavit from a former player about what he personally witnessed at UNC, that is something that neither the NCAA or SACS can ignore.

OldPhiKap
11-08-2014, 04:07 AM
BTW, I was doing a little Internet research on "lack of institutional control" and found this 2011 TarHeel blog about haw they avoided it in 2011. I post it, because most of the things that it says would constitute LOIC have now been shown to be true:

http://www.tarheelblog.com/2011/06/how-unc-avoided-lack-of-institutional-control-charge

And a different blog related to Miami a few years ago, describing some situations and penalties:

http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2013/2/20/4008392/ncaa-lack-of-institutional-control-definition-miami


I'm going back to bed now.

sagegrouse
11-08-2014, 06:01 AM
BTW, I was doing a little Internet research on "lack of institutional control" and found this 2011 TarHeel blog about haw they avoided it in 2011. I post it, because most of the things that it says would constitute LOIC have now been shown to be true:

http://www.tarheelblog.com/2011/06/how-unc-avoided-lack-of-institutional-control-charge

And a different blog related to Miami a few years ago, describing some situations and penalties:

http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2013/2/20/4008392/ncaa-lack-of-institutional-control-definition-miami


I'm going back to bed now.

Thanks OPK. THe blog re UNC offers up some money quotes -- the five reasons the author believes that Carolina escaped an LOIC charge in 2011.


With that in mind, here are a few specific reasons I suspect UNC did not receive a lack of institutional control charge:

1. UNC has a long history of NCAA compliance.

UNC's last - and only - major NCAA violation was over 50 years ago in a basketball point-shaving scandal that affected a number of schools.

2. UNC acted properly in regards to Jennifer Wiley

3. UNC was proactive, cooperating with the NCAA and withholding players

4. John Blake was vetted by UNC but apparently was lying to everybody.

Two often-forgotten facts as everyone seeks to pile on UNC and Butch Davis for hiring Blake in the first place are that A) UNC sought clearance from the NCAA before hiring Blake and B) Blake lied on his employment records to hide his association with Gary Wichard.

5. The academic issues and improper benefits are considered self-reported by the NCAA.


Oops! UNC in a world of hurt. For example, just substitute the name "Mary Willingham" for "Jennifer Wiley." Or, instead of "a long history of NCAA compliance," how about "18 years of documented NCAA violations?" And the last one is a killer -- "self-reported?" -- because of the Wainstein report? Hah!! Not after 18 years.

Reilly
11-08-2014, 06:31 AM
i bet that Roy's not in the daggum deposition-giving spirit.

Mr. Williams: "Roy Williams is not talking about that bull crap."
Attorney: "Sir, answer the question."
Mr. Williams: "Roy Williams is not talking about that bull crap."
Attorney: "Sir, ...."

devildeac
11-08-2014, 07:18 AM
Appears to be much more than just dynamite here. Maybe more like :


4473

MarkD83
11-08-2014, 07:36 AM
I know that in the older thread on this topic there was a discussion of the bank/loan analogy with UNC being too big to fail. However, in class action suits and whistleblower suits I don't imagine the courts care if the institution being sued is "too big to fail".

Would these suits prompt the NCAA to take action faster in order to get their penalty dollars first (pay us back the bowl and march madness money) or slow down their time frame to see what other information is revealed without them having to spend money on a new investigation?

I am thinking this slows down any NCAA action because the NCAA just has to wait for someone else to do their investigative work.

CameronBlue
11-08-2014, 07:42 AM
Appears to be much more than just dynamite here. Maybe more like :


4473

Well that's a heckuva smoking gun, which is what many at UNC still claim is missing like this guy...

"Stephen Leonard, a UNC-CH political science professor and chairman of the UNC system's Faculty Assembly, said the failures outlined in the Wainstein report were primarily on the academic side of the university and need to be addressed by academic officials." http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/11/05/4297984_faculty-group-looks-for-consensus.html?sp=/99/100/&rh=1#storylink=cpy

We'll see if McAdoo's principal claim

"From selection of a major to selection of courses, the UNC football program controlled football student-athletes' academic track, with the sole purpose of ensuring that football student-athletes were eligible to participate in athletics, rather than actually educating them,"

can be substantiated during the deposition process. UNC really, really, REALLY doesn't want it to go that far. As OPK intimated up thread, it remains to be seen if anyone actually gets deposed. What will the judge decide? Do we have an affidavit from McAdoo?......still a long long way to go. The dumpster fire smolders on...

CameronBornAndBred
11-08-2014, 08:10 AM
Lawsuits can be lengthy, especially class action suits. WTG, Carolina, your attempts at sweeping this under the rug in hopes of it quietly going away have backfired in the most beautiful way possible. This will now be in the public eye for a very long time.

Maybe we will see ads on tv asking if your education was a total sham, and if so YOU MAY BE ENTITLED to financial reparation! (Or maybe you just have mesothelioma, either way, the law firm of Ferguson, Chambers & Sumpter can help you!)

hudlow
11-08-2014, 08:19 AM
University of Phoenix-CH.

arnie
11-08-2014, 08:26 AM
i bet that Roy's not in the daggum deposition-giving spirit.

Again, the initial post is wrong. It's only a football player - we knew that program was totally corrupt. Roy skates on this one and in fact can brag how clean his program is compared toUNC football.

CameronBornAndBred
11-08-2014, 08:33 AM
Again, the initial post is wrong. It's only a football player - we knew that program was totally corrupt. Roy skates on this one and in fact can brag how clean his program is compared toUNC football.
It is a class action lawsuit in which any of the 3,100 students can participate. Lawyers will be looking at every program involved, including basketball.

Tripping William
11-08-2014, 08:41 AM
It is a class action lawsuit in which any of the 3,100 students can participate. Lawyers will be looking at every program involved, including basketball.

*If* it gets certified as a class. My early guess: a confidential settlement with a fair bit of coin changing hands.

budwom
11-08-2014, 08:48 AM
I am most interested to see if the legal system allows Roy Williams in the first person is allowed to testify on behalf of Roy Williams in the third person, e.g.
"I have known Roy Williams all of my life and there isn't a dadgum dishonest bone in that man's pale blue body."

Legal opinions on this?

BD80
11-08-2014, 09:04 AM
i bet that Roy's not in the daggum deposition-giving spirit.


Mr. Williams: "Roy Williams is not talking about that bull crap."
Attorney: "Sir, answer the question."
Mr. Williams: "Roy Williams is not talking about that bull crap."
Attorney: "Sir, ...."

Imagine the fun of getting ol' roy to actually answer a question. He would likely vacillate from diatribe to self-pity, offering statements that were in no way responsive to the question. I picture a question being read back repeatedly, and roy and his attorneys, with straight faces, stating that the question was answered. Next step would be teleconference with judge or magistrate, resulting in instruction to ol' roy to answer. More obfuscation. Motion to compel with transcription of first deposition. Second deposition delayed by multiple delays due to "scheduling" conflicts, probably ending in ol' roy breaking down in tears, unable to continue. Another motion to compel (with request for sanctions).

After months and months:

Q: "Please state your name for the record"
A: "Roy Williams"

devildeac
11-08-2014, 09:12 AM
Imagine the fun of getting ol' roy to actually answer a question. He would likely vacillate from diatribe to self-pity, offering statements that were in no way responsive to the question. I picture a question being read back repeatedly, and roy and his attorneys, with straight faces, stating that the question was answered. Next step would be teleconference with judge or magistrate, resulting in instruction to ol' roy to answer. More obfuscation. Motion to compel with transcription of first deposition. Second deposition delayed by multiple delays due to "scheduling" conflicts, probably ending in ol' roy breaking down in tears, unable to continue. Another motion to compel (with request for sanctions).

After months and months:

Q: "Please state your name for the record"
A: "Roy Williams"

Q: "Is that Roy Williams first person or Roy Williams third person?"

subzero02
11-08-2014, 09:12 AM
I am most interested to see if the legal system allows Roy Williams in the first person is allowed to testify on behalf of Roy Williams in the third person, e.g.
"I have known Roy Williams all of my life and there isn't a dadgum dishonest bone in that man's pale blue body."

Legal opinions on this?

Would Roys Williams in the first person be allowed to plead the fifth for Roy Williams in the third person?

devildeac
11-08-2014, 09:15 AM
Would Roys Williams in the first person be allowed to plead the fifth for Roy Williams in the third person?

He may have to drink the fifth.

OldPhiKap
11-08-2014, 09:18 AM
university of phoenix-ch.

unlv-ch.

devildeac
11-08-2014, 09:19 AM
Again, the initial post is wrong. It's only a football player - we knew that program was totally corrupt. Roy skates on this one and in fact can brag how clean his program is compared toUNC football.

I think not considering the # of (questionably eligible) AFAM majors on his 2005 National Championship (*) team.

devildeac
11-08-2014, 09:20 AM
*If* it gets certified as a class. My early guess: a confidential settlement with a fair bit of coin changing hands.

Knowing unc, they may well be bitcoins.

OldPhiKap
11-08-2014, 09:36 AM
*If* it gets certified as a class. My early guess: a confidential settlement with a fair bit of coin changing hands.

In thinking about it, this will be a difficult class to get certidfied. All putative plaintiffs need commonality of claims, and here there are so many individualized representations and impacts -- again I need to read it but my gut says this ultimately does not go far.


Knowing unc, they may well be bitcoins.

Bitcoins. My kryptonite.

BD80
11-08-2014, 09:47 AM
In thinking about it, this will be a difficult class to get certidfied. All putative plaintiffs need commonality of claims, and here there are so many individualized representations and impacts -- again I need to read it but my gut says this ultimately does not go far. ...

What about the commonality of the causation, the underlying conspiracy to defraud the NCAA with respect to compliance with the rules regarding academic eligibility?

BD80
11-08-2014, 09:55 AM
BigWayne noted in the recently closed scandal thread:

Those PR bills are gonna look small after they get done defending the lawsuits.

Which raises an additional source of amusement. The communications with the PR firm are not privileged. Relevance is the only argument.

OldPhiKap
11-08-2014, 09:57 AM
What about the commonality of the causation, the underlying conspiracy to defraud the NCAA with respect to compliance with the rules regarding academic eligibility?

Common questions have to predominate the whole claim. It's why some environmental claims are often difficult class actions. You may have common duties, breach of duties, and causation, but such individualized impacts that you essentially need a hearing for each putative class member.

Fraud is hard too unless based on a common written document (like a loan application) because the representations and reliance necessary to establish fraud varies from person to person.

But I have not seen the complaint yet so take this all with a suitably-sized lumpage of sodium chloride.

Henderson
11-08-2014, 10:07 AM
It is a class action lawsuit in which any of the 3,100 students can participate. Lawyers will be looking at every program involved, including basketball.

Unless there is something unusual about this complaint (I haven't seen it), this will be an "opt out" class action. That means if the class is certified, everyone fitting the description of a class member will automatically be in the class of plaintiffs, represented by the lead plaintiff McAdoo and his lawyers, and bound by the result, unless a person opts out to pursue his/her own suit. That means that, if the class is certified as all students who took sham classes, all 3100 would automatically be in, meaning all their sports would be relevant.

UNC-CH's strategy will surely be (in order) to seek dismissal, fight class certification or limit the class to (say) football. To certify a class, McAdoo's lawyers will have to show that his claims are typical of a such a large number of peoples' claims that trying them altogether would be efficient. UNC-CH will argue that each student's situation is different, making a class action an inappropriate means of resolving them.

If a class is certified to include all 3100 former students, Roy's definitely in for some distractions.

These big suits against state entities have lots of tricky places for an inexperienced team of lawyers to fall down, so I hope McAdoo brought the A team.

Henderson
11-08-2014, 10:26 AM
I'd really like to see the complaint. I'm assuming that this is being brought under the North Carolina Tort Claims Act, or McAdoo would have an 11th Amendment problem seeking money damages in federal court. Most tort claims acts require--as a prerequisite to suit--timely notice to the defendant of intent to sue. That typically means sending the notice within a certain number of days after the tort was committed (or the fraud was uncovered). In other tort claims acts I'm familiar with, the failure to submit that notice in a timely fashion (and the time frame is typically short, like 180 days) is a complete bar to suing. I wonder if McAdoo sent a timely tort claim notice or whether that's going to be a point of contention in the motion. Or whether he's even relying on the tort claims act.

Wasn't McAdoo part of the group that filed a complaint with the Civil Rights Division of the US Dept. of Ed several months ago? Maybe he's spring boarding this class action off that complaint... Has anyone seen a copy of UNC's response to that complaint? If the CRD doesn't just dismiss the complaint out of hand, the University is required to submit a response.

Again, a copy of the complaint would help clarify McAdoo's strategy and tell us whether the thing looks viable or weak.

RepoMan
11-08-2014, 10:44 AM
I have a copy, but I can't figure out how to upload. I get a message that says file size too large

RepoMan
11-08-2014, 10:46 AM
It is an 88.8 KB pdf doc

BD80
11-08-2014, 10:57 AM
The proposed class is all North Carolina scholarship football players between 1993 and 2011.

Per CBS:

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/writer/jon-solomon/24789926/ex-unc-football-player-sues-university-over-academic-scandal

The lawsuit alleges North Carolina breached its contract with football players; violated the state's consumer protection law regarding unfair or deceptive acts or practices affecting commerce; and committed fraud by recruiting athletes through falsely representing they would receive a legitimate education if they enrolled as a football player. ...

The lawsuit states McAdoo is seeking "actual damages" for the class and "injunctive relief including, but not limited to, a court appointee reviewing the curriculum and course selection for all football student-athletes and the provision of four-year guaranteed scholarships to all football student-athletes going forward."

This could be why unc announced in July that all athletic scholarships will be guaranteed "for life," meaning any former scholarship athlete who didn't finish his or her degree may return to school. Kind of cuts through the actual damage argument.

ice-9
11-08-2014, 11:00 AM
Wow!

Aren't you guys a little curious about from who this is coming from?

McAdoo, the guy who could have been a lottery pick had he come out his freshman year. Instead he stayed and his NBA stock regressed year after year, until he couldn't even get drafted.

That would make anybody unhappy, I imagine.

No NBA, no NBA money. Think maybe he's trying to cash out with this lawsuit?

cspan37421
11-08-2014, 11:03 AM
Wow!

Aren't you guys a little curious about from who this is coming from?

McAdoo, the guy who could have been a lottery pick had he come out his freshman year. Instead he stayed and his NBA stock regressed year after year, until he couldn't even get drafted.

That would make anybody unhappy, I imagine.

No NBA, no NBA money. Think maybe he's trying to cash out with this lawsuit?

It's not that McAdoo. It's a different one.

cspan37421
11-08-2014, 11:06 AM
"We didn't do anything wrong ... besides, everyone does it (offers fake classes)."

"We didn't do anything wrong ... pardon me while I write another check to a PR firm and refuse to cooperate with the Wainstein investigation."

Henderson
11-08-2014, 11:25 AM
The proposed class is all North Carolina scholarship football players between 1993 and 2011.

Per CBS:

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/writer/jon-solomon/24789926/ex-unc-football-player-sues-university-over-academic-scandal

The lawsuit alleges North Carolina breached its contract with football players; violated the state's consumer protection law regarding unfair or deceptive acts or practices affecting commerce; and committed fraud by recruiting athletes through falsely representing they would receive a legitimate education if they enrolled as a football player. ...

The lawsuit states McAdoo is seeking "actual damages" for the class and "injunctive relief including, but not limited to, a court appointee reviewing the curriculum and course selection for all football student-athletes and the provision of four-year guaranteed scholarships to all football student-athletes going forward."

This could be why unc announced in July that all athletic scholarships will be guaranteed "for life," meaning any former scholarship athlete who didn't finish his or her degree may return to school. Kind of cuts through the actual damage argument.

If the complaint seeks class status for just football players, any basketball issues are probably going to be outside the scope of discovery. Bummer, but it probably does give McAdoo a greater chance of getting a class certified.

As for damages, it does seem a stretch if all the class members already have the right to go back and get ejukated. But even if the plaintiffs only got prospective injunctive relief, UNC-CH would still likely have to pay the plaintiffs' attorney fees.

BD80
11-08-2014, 11:26 AM
It's not that McAdoo. It's a different one.

It's not that Michael McAdoo. It's a different one.

The FB player does not use the honorific "James" preceding his name. Or the BB player insists on the superfluous middle "Michael." You decide.

duke79
11-08-2014, 11:27 AM
Imagine the fun of getting ol' roy to actually answer a question. He would likely vacillate from diatribe to self-pity, offering statements that were in no way responsive to the question. I picture a question being read back repeatedly, and roy and his attorneys, with straight faces, stating that the question was answered. Next step would be teleconference with judge or magistrate, resulting in instruction to ol' roy to answer. More obfuscation. Motion to compel with transcription of first deposition. Second deposition delayed by multiple delays due to "scheduling" conflicts, probably ending in ol' roy breaking down in tears, unable to continue. Another motion to compel (with request for sanctions).

After months and months:

Q: "Please state your name for the record"
A: "Roy Williams"

LOL, LOL.........so true. And this may be an optimistic view of what will happen !!

jimsumner
11-08-2014, 11:29 AM
Today's (Saturday) News and Observer has the following teaser.

"Coming Sunday. More From UNC. The 2005 UNC championship basketball team was more involved in bogus classes than previously reported. Will the NCAA look? Page 1A."

FYI.

Henderson
11-08-2014, 11:30 AM
It's not that McAdoo. It's a different one.

And what a pity so many people will confuse Michael McAdoo with James Michael McAdoo.

CameronBornAndBred
11-08-2014, 11:31 AM
These big suits against state entities have lots of tricky places for an inexperienced team of lawyers to fall down, so I hope McAdoo brought the A team.
I don't often root for lawyers, but Go Team, Go!!

Henderson
11-08-2014, 11:33 AM
Today's (Saturday) News and Observer has the following teaser.

"Coming Sunday. More From UNC. The 2005 UNC championship basketball team was more involved in bogus classes than previously reported. Will the NCAA look? Page 1A."

FYI.

With a teaser like that and a firm Saturday decision to run the story on 1A Sunday... gotta be good.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-08-2014, 11:34 AM
The proposed class is all North Carolina scholarship football players between 1993 and 2011.

Per CBS:

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/writer/jon-solomon/24789926/ex-unc-football-player-sues-university-over-academic-scandal

The lawsuit alleges North Carolina breached its contract with football players; violated the state's consumer protection law regarding unfair or deceptive acts or practices affecting commerce; and committed fraud by recruiting athletes through falsely representing they would receive a legitimate education if they enrolled as a football player. ...

The lawsuit states McAdoo is seeking "actual damages" for the class and "injunctive relief including, but not limited to, a court appointee reviewing the curriculum and course selection for all football student-athletes and the provision of four-year guaranteed scholarships to all football student-athletes going forward."

This could be why unc announced in July that all athletic scholarships will be guaranteed "for life," meaning any former scholarship athlete who didn't finish his or her degree may return to school. Kind of cuts through the actual damage argument.

The real question is will this be a legitimate class? Or just another paper class.... action suit.

BD80
11-08-2014, 11:37 AM
With a teaser like that and a firm Saturday decision to run the story on 1A Sunday... gotta be good.

But Duke and State play football today! Shouldn't they have a shot at the front page?

arnie
11-08-2014, 11:51 AM
But Duke and State play football today! Shouldn't they have a shot at the front page?

Even if Duke wins today, I'll gladly defer front page to more dirt on the corrupt heels. Besides, N&O strongly disparaging our right (in 2 articles) to play for ACC title this year as well as last year.

Duvall
11-08-2014, 11:59 AM
And what a pity so many people will confuse Michael McAdoo with James Michael McAdoo.

Yes, that is a pity - Michael McAdoo was dismissed from the football for academic dishonesty, and there is no indication that James Michael McAdoo ever did anything of that sort. Were you being sarcastic?

Saratoga2
11-08-2014, 12:03 PM
There were others who lost the opportunities to play for championships because they were enrolled in schools where cheating wasn't institutionalized. I am thinking of NC State, Duke, Wake, and other schools players. Small wonder that students at these schools feel that UNC should be penalized harshly. This will be a test of the NCAA's to see if they really can police college athletics.

Henderson
11-08-2014, 12:09 PM
Yes, that is a pity - Michael McAdoo was dismissed from the football for academic dishonesty, and there is no indication that James Michael McAdoo ever did anything of that sort. Were you being sarcastic?

Well, I certainly wouldn't want people to think JMM was dismissed for academic dishonesty. He's a newlywed who unexpectedly finds himself playing for Santa Cruz in the D-League. I find myself pulling for him now that's he's out of that awful baby blue uniform.

But I don't mind the problems in the football program [reportedly] detailed in the complaint bleeding over to the basketball program in the public's mind. Not after all UNC-CH has done to deflect, misdirect, obfuscate, and excuse. And it's not like the issues in football and basketball are distinct silos of iniquity.

martydoesntfoul
11-08-2014, 12:13 PM
[OldPhiKap: to be fair, that was Butch Davis's staff and not Roy's]

Yes OPK, did not mean to imply it was Roy. However, I am sure Roy made the same promises to the parents of his recruits, and that will ultimately be part of his undoing. You can't promise, not deliver, and then claim you had no idea. He's either not telling the truth or turned everything over to his minions whom he trusted. But even if the latter is true, he failed to deliver and he failed to lead. And if he had any decency (which if he does is obfuscated by his view of himself as a wonderful human being beyond reproach) he would exit now before this gets uglier. Which it will.

I really think he cares more about his legacy - and Dean's - than anything else.

budwom
11-08-2014, 12:16 PM
Only UNC could screw multiple McAdoos...

Duvall
11-08-2014, 12:20 PM
There were others who lost the opportunities to play for championships because they were enrolled in schools where cheating wasn't institutionalized. I am thinking of NC State, Duke, Wake, and other schools players. Small wonder that students at these schools feel that UNC should be penalized harshly. This will be a test of the NCAA's to see if they really can police college athletics.

Do they? I haven't heard much from students in this, aside from a bit at UNC.

OldPhiKap
11-08-2014, 12:25 PM
[OldPhiKap: to be fair, that was Butch Davis's staff and not Roy's]

Yes OPK, did not mean to imply it was Roy. However, I am sure Roy made the same promises to the parents of his recruits, and that will ultimately be part of his undoing. You can't promise, not deliver, and then claim you had no idea. He's either not telling the truth or turned everything over to his minions whom he trusted. But even if the latter is true, he failed to deliver and he failed to lead. And if he had any decency (which if he does is obfuscated by his view of himself as a wonderful human being beyond reproach) he would exit now before this gets uglier. Which it will.

I really think he cares more about his legacy - and Dean's - than anything else.

As they say in my church -- Bingo!

Kedsy
11-08-2014, 12:55 PM
Today's (Saturday) News and Observer has the following teaser.

"Coming Sunday. More From UNC. The 2005 UNC championship basketball team was more involved in bogus classes than previously reported. Will the NCAA look? Page 1A."

FYI.

Wow. I'm looking forward to hearing about this one.

devildeac
11-08-2014, 01:59 PM
Even if Duke wins today, I'll gladly defer front page to more dirt on the corrupt heels. Besides, N&O strongly disparaging our right (in 2 articles) to play for ACC title this year as well as last year.

Yep. They were pretty damned quiet 2 yrs ago when we had to play both f$u and clemson.

devildeac
11-08-2014, 02:01 PM
Wow. I'm looking forward to hearing about this one.

Hoping my N&O is delivered early tomorrow AM so I can read and link. I may camp out overnite in my own driveway just so I can be the 1st to read it.:o

wilson
11-08-2014, 02:21 PM
Imagine the fun of getting ol' roy to actually answer a question. He would likely vacillate from diatribe to self-pity, offering statements that were in no way responsive to the question. I picture a question being read back repeatedly, and roy and his attorneys, with straight faces, stating that the question was answered. Next step would be teleconference with judge or magistrate, resulting in instruction to ol' roy to answer. More obfuscation. Motion to compel with transcription of first deposition. Second deposition delayed by multiple delays due to "scheduling" conflicts, probably ending in ol' roy breaking down in tears, unable to continue. Another motion to compel (with request for sanctions).

After months and months:

Q: "Please state your name for the record"
A: "Roy Williams"I think Roy should kick the whole thing off by Skyping the appropriate authorities to inform them that he is now willing to talk about this bullcrap.

dragoneye776
11-08-2014, 04:17 PM
Can we please edit the first post to the correct accuser? The accuser is a football player and James Michael McAdoo is a basketball player, leading us to believe that the lawsuit was against the basketball program , which has a significantly different impact.

-jk
11-08-2014, 04:42 PM
Can we please edit the first post to the correct accuser? The accuser is a football player and James Michael McAdoo is a basketball player, leading us to believe that the lawsuit was against the basketball program , which has a significantly different impact.

Done; thanks for catching that.

-jk

Devil in the Blue Dress
11-08-2014, 07:45 PM
Here's a link to an N&O article dated for 11/8: http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/11/08/4305374/2005-unc-basketball-champs-2-semesters.html

It's longer than many articles on this topic and provides many thought proving details.

CameronBlue
11-08-2014, 07:59 PM
I wouldn't necessarily call it the beginning of the end for Ol' Roy but more inconsistencies in his statements are coming to light. You may as well lower the 2005 Banner to half-staff however, it's on life-support.

cspan37421
11-08-2014, 08:13 PM
Here's a link to an N&O article dated for 11/8: http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/11/08/4305374/2005-unc-basketball-champs-2-semesters.html

It's longer than many articles on this topic and provides many thought proving details.

Proving that Dan Kane is capable of thought - definitely. I'm not so sure about the 2005 NCAA champs and it sounds like neither was Ms. Crowder.

hurleyfor3
11-08-2014, 08:27 PM
Geez, I spend the day out hiking and this happens. Maybe I should do Elbert tomorrow; then the banners might come down.

Atlanta Duke
11-08-2014, 09:41 PM
Wow. I'm looking forward to hearing about this one.

Duplicate post deleted

DukeBlueHeart4
11-08-2014, 10:06 PM
For your enjoyment....or to bring you disgust as it did me...

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/11/08/4305374_2005-unc-basketball-champs-2-semesters.html?sp=/99/100/&rh=1

Newton_14
11-08-2014, 10:45 PM
Here's a link to an N&O article dated for 11/8: http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/11/08/4305374/2005-unc-basketball-champs-2-semesters.html

It's longer than many articles on this topic and provides many thought proving details.


For your enjoyment....or to bring you disgust as it did me...

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/11/08/4305374_2005-unc-basketball-champs-2-semesters.html?sp=/99/100/&rh=1

And while the kids from all of the other 63 schools in March Madness 2005 had to juggle class assignments, prepare for finals, make up lost class time, etc, the kids from the University of North Carolina @Paper Hill were worry free and focusing 100% on basketball. Just get a plagiarized paper from the world wide web (not to be confused with World Wide Wes, unc did not need him, as Ol Roy one upped Cal here) get a rubber stamped A- with your plagiarized paper having never been read by the secretary who graded it! Think that was an advantage for Roy Williams squad of paper scholars?

A couple of key money quotes:




Of the 35 bogus class enrollments, nine came during the fall semester of 2004, when eligibility for the spring was determined. Twenty-six were during the spring semester, when the season climaxed with a victory over Illinois in St. Louis.
The N&O reported in June that five members of the championship team, including four key players, had relied heavily on the paper classes: 52 enrollments during their time at UNC. The Wainstein documents, however, have more detail and show a heavy concentration during the spring semester of 2005, when the team was driving toward a national title.




Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/11/08/4305374_2005-unc-basketball-champs-2-semesters.html?sp=/99/100/&rh=1#storylink=cpy

Duvall
11-08-2014, 11:07 PM
And while the kids from all of the other 63 schools in March Madness 2005 had to juggle class assignments, prepare for finals, make up lost class time, etc, the kids from the University of North Carolina @Paper Hill were worry free and focusing 100% on basketball. Just get a plagiarized paper from the world wide web (not to be confused with World Wide Wes, unc did not need him, as Ol Roy one upped Cal here) get a rubber stamped A- with your plagiarized paper having never been read by the secretary who graded it! Think that was an advantage for Roy Williams squad of paper scholars?

A couple of key money quotes:



Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/11/08/4305374_2005-unc-basketball-champs-2-semesters.html?sp=/99/100/&rh=1#storylink=cpy

It's not just that - it's also sophomores coming back to play another season for Roy Williams knowing they would not be required to be students in any meaniingful sense. Happens a lot in Chapel Hill.

Newton_14
11-08-2014, 11:37 PM
It's not just that - it's also sophomores coming back to play another season for Roy Williams knowing they would not be required to be students in any meaniingful sense. Happens a lot in Chapel Hill.

That's actually a great point that I had not thought about. Would any of the three of Wayne Ellington, Ty Lawson, and Dancin Danny (if any or all were in paper classes) come back for their Junior Season for example, if they had been and would continue to be in real classes, doing real work? 2009 turns out a whole lot differently if those three guys are in the NBA.

moonpie23
11-09-2014, 12:03 AM
Dan Kane - Gonna buy you a beer, dood.......

MarkD83
11-09-2014, 07:27 AM
Here is a very interesting tid-bit from the article.

"UNC Athletic Director Bubba Cunningham has said the NCAA is reviewing athlete transcripts as part of its investigation."

Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/11/08/4305374/2005-unc-basketball-champs-2-semesters.html#storylink=cpy

If the NCAA is very analytical about this, their investigation would not require anymore interviews and would be an exercise in 1) eliminating the bogus classes, 2) calculating if an athlete had enough classes to be eligible (forget about the GPAs on this one) and then 3) decide if a team used an ineligible player. Take for example McCants, if we don't count any of his classes in the Spring of 2005 that means he was not a full time student so he was not eligible, his GPA is irrelevant.

If the NCAA wanted to go further, they would then count how the ineligible players affected the APR score and would then determine whether future teams were eligible for post season play.

They could then count the amount of money that UNC needs to pay back and give the proceeds to Ed O'Bannon :D.

Ima Facultiwyfe
11-09-2014, 08:37 AM
He may have to drink the fifth.

I swear I hope this goes on for a long time just so I can read more of Deac's comments. They crack me up!
Love,Ima

Indoor66
11-09-2014, 09:25 AM
I swear I hope this goes on for a long time just so I can read more of Deac's comments. They crack me up!
Love,Ima

Actually, DD is really drumming up business for his Cardiac practice.... :cool:

MarkD83
11-09-2014, 09:32 AM
but I am an analytical guy and took 5 minutes to do this hypothetical calculation.

I went to the NCAA website, downloaded UNC BBall APR rates, assumed one ineligible player per year and recalculated APR.
4476

As a quick addition, my assumption in the table is that you lose 2 pts per ineligible player. That is 1 pt for not being eligible and 1 pt for not staying in school. If UNC loses 3 APR pts per team then all the scores are less than 900, which is what caused UConn to be banned from post season play.

77devil
11-09-2014, 09:49 AM
Here is a very interesting tid-bit from the article.

"UNC Athletic Director Bubba Cunningham has said the NCAA is reviewing athlete transcripts as part of its investigation."

Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/11/08/4305374/2005-unc-basketball-champs-2-semesters.html#storylink=cpy

If the NCAA is very analytical about this, their investigation would not require anymore interviews and would be an exercise in 1) eliminating the bogus classes, 2) calculating if an athlete had enough classes to be eligible (forget about the GPAs on this one) and then 3) decide if a team used an ineligible player. Take for example McCants, if we don't count any of his classes in the Spring of 2005 that means he was not a full time student so he was not eligible, his GPA is irrelevant.

If the NCAA wanted to go further, they would then count how the ineligible players affected the APR score and would then determine whether future teams were eligible for post season play.

They could then count the amount of money that UNC needs to pay back and give the proceeds to Ed O'Bannon :D.

Bubba has put some whoppers out there in previous interviews and is apparently unconcerned about the legitimacy of the fraudulent classes.

"But as long as the courses and the credits and everything count to the accrediting agency, we're very comfortable with our certification process — that our students were eligible to compete when they competed."

“So as bad as it was, as long as it was, it’s really starting to sink in that there was maybe one, two, three classes for somebody – so that might be six or nine hours out of 120 that it takes to graduate.

We knew Bubba's twisted math was silly but this latest revelation, 9 and 26 bogus classes across two semesters for 10 players, is indefensible-at least rationally. Bubba got ahead of the story in the earlier statements. I suspect he has been muzzled now from offering analysis and opinion and limited to providing basic facts. He'll offer no comment or deflect on the latest revelations.

jimsumner
11-09-2014, 11:22 AM
My favorite.

Roy Williams in 2012.

"We know what our guys are majoring in. We know--every day we're in touch with these kids. So, it's something again that I'm very proud of."

OldPhiKap
11-09-2014, 11:27 AM
My favorite.

Roy Williams in 2012.

"We know what our guys are majoring in. We know--every day we're in touch with these kids. So, it's something again that I'm very proud of."

"How was class today, Rashad?"

"Heh. Good one, Coach."

jgehtland
11-09-2014, 11:58 AM
If the NCAA is very analytical about this, their investigation would not require anymore interviews and would be an exercise in 1) eliminating the bogus classes, 2) calculating if an athlete had enough classes to be eligible (forget about the GPAs on this one) and then 3) decide if a team used an ineligible player. Take for example McCants, if we don't count any of his classes in the Spring of 2005 that means he was not a full time student so he was not eligible, his GPA is irrelevant.

I keep seeing this analysis floated, but isn't it simpler than that? Isn't an athlete deemed ineligible if they are found to be lying to the NCAA or have in any way cheated? Wouldn't simply being ENROLLED in a fraudulent class, regardless of whether or not you'd be deemed eligible without it, be enough to disqualify you? Enrolling in a fraudulent class, then reporting that grade to the NCAA for purposes of calculating either your eligibility or the overall APR, ought to be disqualifying in and of itself. Am I wrong?

martydoesntfoul
11-09-2014, 12:34 PM
My favorite.

Roy Williams in 2012.

"We know what our guys are majoring in. We know--every day we're in touch with these kids. So, it's something again that I'm very proud of."

I can see it now... by "we" I mean the program, and of course that responsibility fell to the most ethical human being, Wayne Walden, that I've ever known...

Then there's this (would love to know who ON-HIGH is):

Crowder agreed to enroll the student, even as she noted that “(w)e are GETTING PRESSURE FROM ON-HIGH to reduce the numbers of independent study type courses.”

And then this, particularly the last sentence:

The emails also show a tight relationship between Crowder and Walden. He offered her tickets to games, which she accepted, and he gave her team paraphernalia such as clothing, calendars and posters. Crowder told Walden in 2004 that his predecessor, Burgess McSwain, would drop off team calendars and posters for her to distribute. They went, she wrote, to “some of the various and sundry people who helped keep these guys in school.”

Recall, Roy stated in a recent ESPN interview that the Wainstein Report found no such thing (that these classes were used to keep players eligible).

Oops.

OldPhiKap
11-09-2014, 12:46 PM
"Rashad, I see you've been missing a lot of classes lately."

"I wouldn't say that I've been 'missing' them, Coach."

(Both chuckle)

hudlow
11-09-2014, 12:55 PM
My favorite.

Roy Williams in 2012.

"We know what our guys are majoring in. We know--every day we're in touch with these kids. So, it's something again that I'm very proud of."


Roy looking in the mirror....

Who's "we" Kemosabe?

Newton_14
11-09-2014, 02:09 PM
My favorite.

Roy Williams in 2012.

"We know what our guys are majoring in. We know--every day we're in touch with these kids. So, it's something again that I'm very proud of."

Good one Jim. My favorite is the quote in my signature. I am thinking about starting a Roy thread and use it to post all his ignorant and conflicting statements since this sordid mess came to light.


Edit: Forgot to add... my signature... that's something again I'm very proud of! :)

wilson
11-09-2014, 02:29 PM
I am thinking about starting a Roy thread and use it to post all his ignorant and conflicting statements since this sordid mess came to light.To this list of modifiers, I would add, "just flat-out nonsensical."
Roy, as quoted in this morning's News-Observer:

Four months later, at a press conference, an N&O reporter asked Williams why his players had stopped taking AFAM paper classes by the start of the fall 2009 semester. Was it because Crowder had retired, or did someone in the program notice something wrong?

Williams responded: “You say we either did something, or we didn’t do something. Maybe guys, girls, just decided not to take certain classes.”I've added the emphasis here basically to accentuate my point that...Huh? What does Roy's bolded statement above even mean?

cspan37421
11-09-2014, 02:46 PM
is anyone keeping a cumulative rap sheet on these guys, particularly what is not even in dispute any longer? Seems to me that all this stuff about the class fraud has taken attention from Wheels for Heels, mouthguard endorsements, and on and on. Smaller schools would have been crushed for any one of these. UNC skates, perhaps b/c of the power of a certain sports programming network -both its contracts and its relative silence. Not to mention the inaction of the ACC commissioner, the NCAA's weak knees etc etc.

Anyway it's quite a record of malfeasance they're accumulating. I wonder who can keep up with it all ... and what would it take for the NCAA to act? Is there anything that UNC could not get away with?

devildeac
11-09-2014, 03:05 PM
Dan Kane - Gonna buy you a beer, dood.......

The NCAA infractions committee needs to buy him a whole case/keg and PackPride needs to award him an honorary degree;).

ice-9
11-09-2014, 03:13 PM
And what a pity so many people will confuse Michael McAdoo with James Michael McAdoo.

Oops! That was confusing. No wonder no one mentioned it.

DukeSean
11-09-2014, 03:13 PM
I've added the emphasis here basically to accentuate my point that...Huh? What does Roy's bolded statement above even mean?

Trying to figure out what Roy's golly shucks double talk actually means is something you'll probably need a degree for, preferably an AFAM degree.

sagegrouse
11-09-2014, 03:58 PM
What do philosophers like to point out -- the converse or the contrapositive? Lessee... Suppose the NCAA buys Bubba's argument and agrees that the players are eligible and can receive academic credit 'cuz they were enrolled in officially accepted courses and UNC accepted the grades given and put the grades on the players' transcripts. Then, of course, by this rationale, it's OK with the NCAA to have a non-faculty member, totally without academic qualifications, create courses that require no meaningful class time or academic work, and submit high grades for athletes based on work that may not even have been read, much less evaluated by a qualified faculty member. Good luck with this line of reasoning, Bubba!

I think UNC better man the lifeboats, and Roy should look to put his financial affairs in order. This ship is going down-n-n-n!!

BD80
11-09-2014, 04:10 PM
Roy looking in the mirror....

Who's "we" Kemosabe?

If ol' roy, speaking of roy williams in the third person, throws himself under the bus, can he still drive the bus?

wilson
11-09-2014, 04:51 PM
If ol' roy, speaking of roy williams in the third person, throws himself under the bus, can he still drive the bus?Well, he's already lumped himself in with Jesus by claiming never to have done something he shouldn't have done. So the ability to be in three places at once would seem to logically follow...

devildeac
11-09-2014, 04:56 PM
Well, he's already lumped himself in with Jesus by claiming never to have done something he shouldn't have done. So the ability to be in three places at once would seem to logically follow...

Made me think of this:

"How Can You Be in Two Places at Once When You're Not Anywhere at All"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_Can_You_Be_in_Two_Places_at_Once_When_You're_N ot_Anywhere_at_All

Indoor66
11-09-2014, 05:03 PM
Made me think of this:

"How Can You Be in Two Places at Once When You're Not Anywhere at All"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_Can_You_Be_in_Two_Places_at_Once_When_You're_N ot_Anywhere_at_All

That kinda ranks up there with: "If you don't know where you're going any road will get you there."

devildeac
11-09-2014, 05:28 PM
Made me think of this:

"How Can You Be in Two Places at Once When You're Not Anywhere at All"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_Can_You_Be_in_Two_Places_at_Once_When_You're_N ot_Anywhere_at_All


That kinda ranks up there with: "If you don't know where you're going any road will get you there."

Well, considering we've been discussing public transportation vehicles, this might be even more appropriate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Think_We're_All_Bozos_on_This_Bus

OldPhiKap
11-09-2014, 05:33 PM
New signs on Franklin Street:

4477

Acymetric
11-09-2014, 05:35 PM
New signs on Franklin Street:

4477

Would love to have that poster in my office ;)

hudlow
11-09-2014, 05:42 PM
If ol' roy, speaking of roy williams in the third person, throws himself under the bus, can he still drive the bus?

"Dadgummit, Ol' Roy and I can't be 3 places at one time."

BD80
11-09-2014, 07:24 PM
New signs on Franklin Street:

4477

Does it come in baby poo blue?

wilson
11-09-2014, 07:33 PM
If ol' roy, speaking of roy williams in the third person, throws himself under the bus, can he still drive the bus?


Well, he's already lumped himself in with Jesus by claiming never to have done something he shouldn't have done. So the ability to be in three places at once would seem to logically follow...


"Dadgummit, Ol' Roy and I can't be 3 places at one time."The father: Ol' Roy
The son: Roy
The holy steerer: Bus Driver Roy

Newton_14
11-09-2014, 08:14 PM
Looks like Sylvia Hatchell is in just as much denial as Roy The Cheat Williams is. My God people, would even a little bit of truth kill you? The article covers her presser after the first women's game. Denial and deflection was not good enough for Sylvia. She had to remind everyone how great unc is. You just cannot make this stuff up.

Link:http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2014/11/sylvia-hatchell-mum-on-wainstein-report-after-first-womens-basketball-game
Money quotes:


“I don’t want to talk about that tonight,” Hatchell said. “I mean, I don’t really know what to say about it to be honest with you. “It’s really hard for me to believe.”

“You know, I had no clue about any of that, and it’s just really hard for me to even believe it,” Hatchell said after the game. “I’m not saying it’s not true, but it’s hard for me to read it because I didn’t know any of that.”

Hatchell said in the report that she knew Jan Boxill, the former academic adviser for the women’s basketball team (http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2014/10/campus-shocked-by-former-faculty-chairwoman-jan-boxills-involvement-in-academic-scandal), was working closely with secretary Deborah Crowder to enroll players in African and Afro-American studies classes. Though she was aware many of her players were enrolling in African and Afro-American studies classes, Hatchell didn’t see the extent of the ongoing academic fraud (http://www.dailytarheel.com/section/academic-scandal).

“Until Saturday, we had three weekends where nobody lost at all,” Hatchell said. “We were 13-0-1 in every sport.” “I bet you there’s not a school in the country that can say that except (UNC).”

Henderson
11-09-2014, 08:43 PM
I have a copy, but I can't figure out how to upload. I get a message that says file size too large

RepoMan was kind enough to email me a copy of the complaint. (Thanks again, RepoMan.) I'll be happy to forward it by email to anyone who wants to see it.

It makes for a good read. The complaint calls the "Wainstein Report" the "Cadwalader Report" and quotes from it extensively. Wainstein works for the prestigious Cadwalader law firm in Washington, and the plaintiff's attorneys probably thought "Cadwalader" has more gravitas than "Wainstein."

My first impression reading it over quickly is that McAdoo may have an 11th Amendment problem with his prayer for money damages. (Ordinarily you can't sue a state or state entity in federal court for money damages, only for prospective injunctive relief). And the sole defendant is UNC; no UNC officials in their official capacities, which is the usual end-run around the 11th Amendment's bar on suing state entities in federal court. Maybe one of you legal eagles could take a look and comment. Aside from that, I don't see an obvious vulnerability to a motion to dismiss. Even the class action allegations appear well-thought out to satisfy the numerosity and typicality requirements. And yup, it's just football. No mention of the NC Tort Claims Act, but there's a count for breach of contract that wouldn't invoke the NC TCA requirements anyway.

An 11th Amendment problem wouldn't be huge, because (1) McAdoo can probably get attorney fees anyway if he prevails; (2) he'd have a tough time proving money damages anyway; and (3) winning the injunctive relief requested would be big. Plus, the case is likely to settle anyway.

Fun stuff. It'll be interesting to see if UNC-CH files a motion (to dismiss or strike) or just files an answer as their first response.

Acymetric
11-09-2014, 08:56 PM
RepoMan was kind enough to email me a copy of the complaint. (Thanks again, RepoMan.) I'll be happy to forward it by email to anyone who wants to see it.

It makes for a good read. The complaint calls the "Wainstein Report" the "Cadwalader Report" and quotes from it extensively. Wainstein works for the prestigious Cadwalader law firm in Washington, and the plaintiff's attorneys probably thought "Cadwalader" has more gravitas than "Wainstein."

My first impression reading it over quickly is that McAdoo may have an 11th Amendment problem with his prayer for money damages. (Ordinarily you can't sue a state or state entity in federal court for money damages, only for prospective injunctive relief). And the sole defendant is UNC; no UNC officials in their official capacities, which is the usual end-run around the 11th Amendment's bar on suing state entities in federal court. Maybe one of you legal eagles could take a look and comment. Aside from that, I don't see an obvious vulnerability to a motion to dismiss. Even the class action allegations appear well-thought out to satisfy the numerosity and typicality requirements. And yup, it's just football. No mention of the NC Tort Claims Act, but there's a count for breach of contract that wouldn't invoke the NC TCA requirements anyway.

An 11th Amendment problem wouldn't be huge, because (1) McAdoo can probably get attorney fees anyway if he prevails; (2) he'd have a tough time proving money damages anyway; and (3) winning the injunctive relief requested would be big. Plus, the case is likely to settle anyway.

Fun stuff. It'll be interesting to see if UNC-CH files a motion (to dismiss or strike) or just files an answer as their first response.

Without really having any legal knowledge or contribution, I'll just say I look forward to hearing from those who do.

arnie
11-09-2014, 09:55 PM
Looks like Sylvia Hatchell is in just as much denial as Roy The Cheat Williams is. My God people, would even a little bit of truth kill you? The article covers her presser after the first women's game. Denial and deflection was not good enough for Sylvia. She had to remind everyone how great unc is. You just cannot make this stuff up.

Link:http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2014/11/sylvia-hatchell-mum-on-wainstein-report-after-first-womens-basketball-game
Money quotes:

Beginning to think the big dogs know they can't be touched. Has Swofford told them he's got this? Maybe he has NCAA over a barrel. Williams/Hatchell aren't complete idiots; almost seems they know Swofford is holding 5 aces. Maybe we're all fools for thinking there's any integrity in thIs.

martydoesntfoul
11-09-2014, 10:12 PM
Kind of an amusing secondary angle to the story... the Wainstein Report also implicated the fraternities and sororities because of the 3.0 GPA requirement. In a shocking response, spokespersons don't see any issues relative to the overall student body.

Seems the PR firm is at least ensuring similar messaging.

http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2014/11/unc-fraternities-contest-wainstein-findings

Acymetric
11-09-2014, 10:12 PM
Beginning to think the big dogs know they can't be touched. Has Swofford told them he's got this? Maybe he has NCAA over a barrel. Williams/Hatchell aren't complete idiots; almost seems they know Swofford is holding 5 aces. Maybe we're all fools for thinking there's any integrity in thIs.

I hope that isn't true because it if turns out Swofford is going to bat under the table for his alma mater in that way and it comes to light the ACC will end up disbanding. I don't know where that leaves Duke.

uh_no
11-09-2014, 10:19 PM
I hope that isn't true because it if turns out Swofford is going to bat under the table for his alma mater in that way and it comes to light the ACC will end up disbanding. I don't know where that leaves Duke.

no, it just ends up with swofford being forced to resign, and perhaps even being held criminally liable for defrauding the other members of the conference.

Henderson
11-09-2014, 10:20 PM
Beginning to think the big dogs know they can't be touched. Has Swofford told them he's got this? Maybe he has NCAA over a barrel. Williams/Hatchell aren't complete idiots; almost seems they know Swofford is holding 5 aces. Maybe we're all fools for thinking there's any integrity in thIs.

It's possible. But if Carolina's strategy is to hold on and overcome -- one by one -- their accrediting agency, the NCAA, Mary Willingham, and Michael McAdoo, I still don't think they win. As an institution, legal victories will be pyrrhic if the court of public opinion labels them cheaters. And it'll take years for them to fulfill that strategy anyway. Meanwhile the cloud over the institution abides. That's not only a recruiting issue, but a black mark. They'd be saying, "We were never found guilty," and there would still be the press lines about, "the greatest case of academic cheating in NCAA history." That's not a good outcome for them. Films will be done; retrospectives will be done; and it will continue to be a "controversy". That's bad. And it'll be long-term bad if they allow it to be.

They need a more visionary PR advisor. One who says, "Take your lumps now (as bad as they may be), admit, correct, and move on."

OldPhiKap
11-09-2014, 10:25 PM
Beginning to think the big dogs know they can't be touched. Has Swofford told them he's got this? Maybe he has NCAA over a barrel. Williams/Hatchell aren't complete idiots; almost seems they know Swofford is holding 5 aces. Maybe we're all fools for thinking there's any integrity in thIs.

No. It's doubling down because you can't win if you fold.

This is way beyond Swofford or UNC to control anymore. That ship sailed.

Acymetric
11-09-2014, 10:34 PM
It's possible. But if Carolina's strategy is to hold on and overcome -- one by one -- their accrediting agency, the NCAA, Mary Willingham, and Michael McAdoo, I still don't think they win. As an institution, legal victories will be pyrrhic if the court of public opinion labels them cheaters. And it'll take years for them to fulfill that strategy anyway. Meanwhile the cloud over the institution abides. That's not only a recruiting issue, but a black mark. They'd be saying, "We were never found guilty," and there would still be the press lines about, "the greatest case of academic cheating in NCAA history." That's not a good outcome for them. Films will be done; retrospectives will be done; and it will continue to be a "controversy". That's bad. And it'll be long-term bad if they allow it to be.

They need a more visionary PR advisor. One who says, "Take your lumps now (as bad as they may be), admit, correct, and move on."

No press is bad press, right? ;)

moonpie23
11-09-2014, 11:13 PM
No. It's doubling down because you can't win if you fold.

This is way beyond Swofford or UNC to control anymore. That ship sailed.

i'm hoping you're right......but, i have a doubt

ricks68
11-10-2014, 01:37 AM
I swear I hope this goes on for a long time just so I can read more of Deac's comments. They crack me up!
Love,Ima

I find it very difficult to find an instance where one of dd's comments have not cracked me up.;)

ricks

gumbomoop
11-10-2014, 02:06 AM
It's possible. But if Carolina's strategy is to hold on and overcome -- one by one -- their accrediting agency, the NCAA, Mary Willingham, and Michael McAdoo, I still don't think they win. As an institution, legal victories will be pyrrhic if the court of public opinion labels them cheaters. And it'll take years for them to fulfill that strategy anyway. Meanwhile the cloud over the institution abides. That's not only a recruiting issue, but a black mark. They'd be saying, "We were never found guilty," and there would still be the press lines about, "the greatest case of academic cheating in NCAA history." That's not a good outcome for them. Films will be done; retrospectives will be done; and it will continue to be a "controversy". That's bad. And it'll be long-term bad if they allow it to be.

They need a more visionary PR advisor. One who says, "Take your lumps now (as bad as they may be), admit, correct, and move on."

Lots of good points by Henderson here. Lots.

A summary observation might be: there are no good answers left [No. Good. Answers. None.], so UNC would be wise to think carefully about, and choose, the least bad option. Said option - and this has to be acknowledged forthrightly - will be accompanied by Bad Things, but two or three fewer Really Bad Things than would accompany dumb options. The least bad option is the one that, after a painful interval, allows the university to recoil from its suicidal path, reclaim its self-respect, and gradually but steadily re-establish a deserved reputation for academic excellence.

Trying to avoid even one more Bad Thing - the Bubba/Roy/Sylvia approach - will produce many more Bad Things. I'm personally skeptical that any of those 3 - blinded by narrow, if understandable, self-interest - is emotionally, psychologically, or intellectually capable of comprehending how they are continuing to harm the University they love. Roy would surely say, probably has, that he serves the University, and proudly. He is simply not capable of seeing how badly he has disserved it.

I feel a little bit sorry for him, and for the now-exposed Jan Boxill [the latter of whom I have blasted repeatedly on EK]. I assume the belatedly awakened UNC faculty will somberly accept whatever fate awaits Boxill, and I hope they will firmly, and if necessary publicly, confront Roy's obtuseness.

roywhite
11-10-2014, 06:49 AM
I assume the belatedly awakened UNC faculty will somberly accept whatever fate awaits Boxill, and I hope they will firmly, and if necessary publicly, confront Roy's obtuseness.

Confronting Roy's obtuseness -- not an easy task. I'm reminded of the exchange between Andy Dufresne and the Warden at Shawshank:

Andy Dufresne: How can you be so obtuse?

Warden Samuel Norton: What? What did you call me?

Andy Dufresne: Obtuse. Is it deliberate?

Warden Samuel Norton: Son, you're forgetting yourself.

Andy Dufresne: The country club will have his old time cards. Records, W-2s with his name on them. Sir, if I ever get out, I'd never mention what happens here. I'd be just as indictable as you for laundering that money.

[Norton slaps the table]

Warden Samuel Norton: Don't you ever mention money to me again, you sorry son of a I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.! Not in this office, not anywhere!

wilko
11-10-2014, 07:34 AM
Even more entertaining will be when a member of the general student body comes forward, claiming that they didn't know about the sham classes and were denied an opportunity to participate, thus impacting their GPA, class rank and earning potential. That would be a hoot.

CameronBornAndBred
11-10-2014, 08:11 AM
i'm hoping you're right......but, i have a doubt
https://espngrantland.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/tiny-lister-the-fifth-element.jpg?w=524

plimnko
11-10-2014, 09:27 AM
http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2014/11/09/unc-academic-scandal-2005-title-fake-classes

tux
11-10-2014, 10:01 AM
http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2014/11/09/unc-academic-scandal-2005-title-fake-classes


The Dan Kane article posted on the DBR front page is proving that the Wainstein Report is just a springboard to more questions. UNC really wanted the report to be the final, definitive answer but I think their attempt to shrink the scope to just AFAM and Crowder is now backfiring. And it's becoming an interesting enough story that I would expect national media coverage to pick up in the coming months. If the heat on Roy ticks up even a few notches as we move into 2015, I'm (unbelievably) starting to wonder if he makes it through the season. And I don't mean that as some sort of wishful thinking -- I think it's becoming a legitimate question.

bob blue devil
11-10-2014, 10:02 AM
this should make for some informative reading: Cheated: The UNC Scandal, the Education of Athletes, and the Future of Big-Time College Sports (http://www.amazon.com/Cheated-Scandal-Education-Athletes-Big-Time/dp/1612347282/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1415631523&sr=8-4&keywords=cheated), by Jay Smith and Mary Willingham

bob blue devil
11-10-2014, 10:08 AM
this should make for some informative reading: Cheated: The UNC Scandal, the Education of Athletes, and the Future of Big-Time College Sports (http://www.amazon.com/Cheated-Scandal-Education-Athletes-Big-Time/dp/1612347282/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1415631523&sr=8-4&keywords=cheated), by Jay Smith and Mary Willingham

here are the reviews (say hello to Rashad McCants - was he blowing off Wainstein to save his goods for this book?):


“The underlying fraud in big-time college athletics is academics. With the most comprehensive accounting, Smith and Willlingham paint an absolutely devastating picture of how so-called student-athletes are shamelessly exploited. . . . Cheated is nothing less than an American tragedy.”—Frank Deford, author of The Entitled and senior contributing writer for Sports Illustrated

“This book informed me that, as a black athlete and a student, more awareness and information about the universities you attend must be thoroughly analyzed before making a decision about your future. The details of fraudulent education and unprepared black athletes in this book should shame our society. I am a living testimony that this book is the Pandora’s box of university secrets and black athlete exploitation. It is a must-read.”—Rashad McCants, former NBA player and UNC NCAA Champion

“Smith and Willingham’s exposé of the corruption at the University of North Carolina reads like a suspense thriller but unfortunately is nonfiction. The authors offer concrete recommendations for college sports reform that should serve as a blueprint for all American universities.”—Gerald Gurney, president of the Drake Group and assistant professor of adult and higher education at the University of Oklahoma

El_Diablo
11-10-2014, 10:12 AM
http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2014/11/09/unc-academic-scandal-2005-title-fake-classes

There is absolutely nothing on ESPN.com regarding the lawsuit or the fact that UNC players took 35 fake classes during the "championship" season. And none of the ESPN personalities has tweeted about either story either. I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.

They do have a video headline puff piece on Marcus Paige's leadership skills though. And another video that ranks JP Tokoto as one of the best dunkers in college basketball. Yeah, great coverage, ESPN.

BD80
11-10-2014, 10:15 AM
this should make for some informative reading: Cheated: The UNC Scandal, the Education of Athletes, and the Future of Big-Time College Sports (http://www.amazon.com/Cheated-Scandal-Education-Athletes-Big-Time/dp/1612347282/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1415631523&sr=8-4&keywords=cheated), by Jay Smith and Mary Willingham

Due out March 2015. From Amazon promo:

"In 2010 allegations of an utterly corrupted academic system for student-athletes emerged from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill campus, home of the legendary Tar Heels. ...

Written by UNC professor of history Jay Smith and UNC athletics department whistleblower Mary Willingham, Cheated: The UNC Scandal, the Education of Athletes, and the Future of Big-Time College Sports exposes the fraudulent inner workings of this famous university. For decades, woefully underprepared basketball and football players have taken fake courses and earned dubious degrees from one of the nation’s top universities while faculty and administrators looked the other way. Cheated recounts the academic fraud in UNC's athletic department ..." (bolded emphasis added)

I'll bet the NCAA asks for an advance copy, it cannot issue any type of ruling with this "expose" about to drop with the potential of revealing still more facts.

CameronBornAndBred
11-10-2014, 10:20 AM
here are the reviews (say hello to Rashad McCants - was he blowing off Wainstein to save his goods for this book?):

“This book informed me that, as a black athlete and a student, more awareness and information about the universities you attend must be thoroughly analyzed before making a decision about your future. The details of fraudulent education and unprepared black athletes in this book should shame our society. I am a living testimony that this book is the Pandora’s box of university secrets and black athlete exploitation. It is a must-read.”—Rashad McCants, former NBA player and UNC NCAA Champion
That was very well done, I wonder who actually wrote it.

sagegrouse
11-10-2014, 10:21 AM
Due out March 2015. From Amazon promo:

"In 2010 allegations of an utterly corrupted academic system for student-athletes emerged from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill campus, home of the legendary Tar Heels. ...

Written by UNC professor of history Jay Smith and UNC athletics department whistleblower Mary Willingham, Cheated: The UNC Scandal, the Education of Athletes, and the Future of Big-Time College Sports exposes the fraudulent inner workings of this famous university. For decades, woefully underprepared basketball and football players have taken fake courses and earned dubious degrees from one of the nation’s top universities while faculty and administrators looked the other way. Cheated recounts the academic fraud in UNC's athletic department ..." (bolded emphasis added)

I'll bet the NCAA asks for an advance copy, it cannot issue any type of ruling with this "expose" about to drop with the potential of revealing still more facts.

I don't mean to be Cy the Cynic, but if the publication date is March, then Smith and Willingham have just started writing. If a manuscript were ready, the would be cranking out copies by the thousands.

Pure as the driven slush, Sage
'Credit for the name to Frank Stewart'

OldPhiKap
11-10-2014, 10:40 AM
I don't mean to be Cy the Cynic, but if the publication date is March, then Smith and Willingham have just started writing. If a manuscript were ready, the would be cranking out copies by the thousands.

Pure as the driven slush, Sage
'Credit for the name to Frank Stewart'

Or maybe the publisher figures that March is the best time to launch a book on the topic. Another possibility is that the book was essentially finished, but the authors want to include and/or reference the Wainstein report.

sagegrouse
11-10-2014, 11:01 AM
Or maybe the publisher figures that March is the best time to launch a book on the topic. Another possibility is that the book was essentially finished, but the authors want to include and/or reference the Wainstein report.

OPK, you may be right but the cynic in me says that now is the best time for a book on UNC's woes, inasmuch as it is dominating today's college hoops news. Heck, just think how many books can be sent as Christmas presents to the subscribers of Pack Pride and DBR ... or to our "favorite" Carolina fans.

77devil
11-10-2014, 11:04 AM
this should make for some informative reading: Cheated: The UNC Scandal, the Education of Athletes, and the Future of Big-Time College Sports (http://www.amazon.com/Cheated-Scandal-Education-Athletes-Big-Time/dp/1612347282/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1415631523&sr=8-4&keywords=cheated), by Jay Smith and Mary Willingham

Looking forward to the book tour.


Or maybe the publisher figures that March is the best time to launch a book on the topic. Another possibility is that the book was essentially finished, but the authors want to include and/or reference the Wainstein report.

This sounds right given editorial reviews from two serious people(RM excluded) that indicate they have read the manuscript. March 1 release into March Madness will sell books and maybe the NCAA will drop the hammer around the same time for maximum publicity.

devildeac
11-10-2014, 11:21 AM
That was very well done, I wonder who actually wrote it.

Jennifer Wiley?;):rolleyes:

devildeac
11-10-2014, 11:23 AM
That was very well done, I wonder who actually wrote it.

And whether it got an A or an A-.

:rolleyes:;)

SoCalDukeFan
11-10-2014, 11:44 AM
So far has tried to attack the messengers and say all issues were limited to a couple of people in one department. The strategy is not working. As I understand it UNC-CH faces actions by the accrediting agency and at least two lawsuits. They also seem to be losing the PR battle 9 (except on ESPN which wants act like this is not happening.) At some point the NCAA might actually do something. I would expect that at some point responsible UNC-CH grads in high places will demand action. In my opinion UNC-CH needs to show that it values academics above athletics and that a degree from Chapel Hill means something.

Step 1 - Retroactively change the grades from the sham courses to Incompletes.
Step 2 - If the Incomplete means that a previously awarded degree now does not meet the standards for graduation, then the degree is rescinded.
Step 3 - Offer real courses with real work and real teachers to all who got the Incompletes. Courses could be taken on campus or on line. Anyone who had had their degree rescinded could earn it back by getting the required grade in the course.
Step 4 - Determine all varsity teams that used players ineligible with the Incompletes and forfeit games they played in and forfeit any titles won.
Step 5 - Determine who was aware or should have been aware of what was going on and either fire them, retire them, or move them to another position.
Step 6 - Try to settle all lawsuits.
Step 7 - Install an academic/athletic support person reporting to the President of the University to monitor admissions, courses taken, etc. to insure that this does not happen again.

Not holding my breath waiting for any of these.

SoCal

MarkD83
11-10-2014, 12:38 PM
That was very well done, I wonder who actually wrote it.

This is too easy....Debbie Crowder wrote the quote.

Tom B.
11-10-2014, 12:42 PM
And another video that ranks JP Tokoto as one of the best dunkers in college basketball.




Any video about J.P Tokoto that doesn't include this highlight is by definition incomplete:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_trmTcEhPOg

Nosbleuatu
11-10-2014, 12:59 PM
Any video about J.P Tokoto that doesn't include this highlight is by definition incomplete:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_trmTcEhPOg


That's quite a turnover. At least he gets an A- for effort.

devildeac
11-10-2014, 01:22 PM
This is too easy....Debbie Crowder wrote the quote.

Bzzzt. Wrong. But she likely graded it an A:rolleyes:;).

devildeac
11-10-2014, 01:23 PM
That's quite a turnover. At least he gets an A- for effort.

Thereby keeping him eligible.

MCFinARL
11-10-2014, 01:33 PM
Looking forward to the book tour.



This sounds right given editorial reviews from two serious people(RM excluded) that indicate they have read the manuscript. March 1 release into March Madness will sell books and maybe the NCAA will drop the hammer around the same time for maximum publicity.

Are you sure these are actual editorial reviews and not book jacket blurbs? It's a very common practice in publishing to get people (often other writers, which would clearly include Frank Deford here) who are friends with or owe a favor to a book's writer, editor or publisher to give favorable comments based on relatively little knowledge of the actual book--perhaps having read a précis, introduction, or book proposal.

Kedsy
11-10-2014, 01:38 PM
Are you sure these are actual editorial reviews and not book jacket blurbs? It's a very common practice in publishing to get people (often other writers, which would clearly include Frank Deford here) who are friends with or owe a favor to a book's writer, editor or publisher to give favorable comments based on relatively little knowledge of the actual book--perhaps having read a précis, introduction, or book proposal.

I think you're right that these are "blurbs," rather than reviews. However, I believe the writers of most blurbs at least receive a copy of the manuscript, whether or not they read it.

tux
11-10-2014, 01:43 PM
Whether the book is written and being delayed for March Madness OR just a proposed book doesn't really matter to me. The authors are not unbiased reporters, but instead major actors in the ongoing drama. So, I would expect the book to contain some interesting bits (and maybe some new revelations or connections), but it will be mostly dismissed by the other side. Or, at least, there will be a lot of shooting the messenger(s).

What the book (among other things) tells me is that there is still a lot to be said about this scandal. The Wainstein Report is the beginning of something; it's not going to provide the closure UNC (I think) was hoping for...

MChambers
11-10-2014, 01:50 PM
Could be that the book is not coming out until the lawyers for the publisher carefully vet everything in it. You've the risk of defamation claims and exposing student information that could violate privacy laws.

sagegrouse
11-10-2014, 03:19 PM
The lawsuit is now on the front page of NBCNews.com (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/sports/ex-university-north-carolina-football-player-sues-over-academic-scandal-n245351).

moonpie23
11-10-2014, 03:43 PM
kind of strange that the headline is about Mcadoo, but they link a video about McCants, and it seems the report was done the day after the Wainstein report dropped...

BigWayne
11-10-2014, 05:29 PM
Purportedly, Tydreke Powell (http://www.goheels.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=205676723) called into a local radio station and explained his particpitaion in the paper class program and how basketball players had other students take their tests for them. Audio available here. (http://d24edc7kaf4agn.cloudfront.net/1639552/unc-player-on-academic-controversy.mp3?rhihttphost=media.102jamz.com) Name of the hoops player is bleeped out. The link also has what must be a computer generated transcript you can read, but I would advise against it as it might make your brain hurt. The computer was not quite able to decode Tydreke's accent. http://media.102jamz.com/device/mobile/a/99022771/3live-crew-interviews-tydreke-powell-of-unc.htm

There is also a reference in this about going to some test facility in Durham and being told to get a bunch of answers wrong. The PP guys are insinuating that this is referring to getting a learning disability declaration which then allows them to have "note takers" go to class with them, etc. This could be a new can of worms being opened up and dumped on Franklin St.

roywhite
11-10-2014, 05:43 PM
Purportedly, Tydreke Powell (http://www.goheels.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=205676723) called into a local radio station and explained his particpitaion in the paper class program and how basketball players had other students take their tests for them. Audio available here. (http://d24edc7kaf4agn.cloudfront.net/1639552/unc-player-on-academic-controversy.mp3?rhihttphost=media.102jamz.com) Name of the hoops player is bleeped out. The link also has what must be a computer generated transcript you can read, but I would advise against it as it might make your brain hurt. The computer was not quite able to decode Tydreke's accent. http://media.102jamz.com/device/mobile/a/99022771/3live-crew-interviews-tydreke-powell-of-unc.htm

There is also a reference in this about going to some test facility in Durham and being told to get a bunch of answers wrong. The PP guys are insinuating that this is referring to getting a learning disability declaration which then allows them to have "note takers" go to class with them, etc. This could be a new can of worms being opened up and dumped on Franklin St.

Yikes. :eek:

blueduke59
11-10-2014, 05:44 PM
Beginning to think the big dogs know they can't be touched. Has Swofford told them he's got this? Maybe he has NCAA over a barrel. Williams/Hatchell aren't complete idiots; almost seems they know Swofford is holding 5 aces. Maybe we're all fools for thinking there's any integrity in thIs.

I think the same thing.

BD80
11-10-2014, 05:48 PM
... The PP guys are insinuating that this is referring to getting a learning disability declaration which then allows them to have "note takers" go to class with them, etc. This could be a new can of worms being opened up and dumped on Franklin St.

Might improve the smell

JasonEvans
11-10-2014, 05:57 PM
Oh man, that audio is nasty!! That is brutal for Carolina. He lays the basketball program out!!

That sounds genuine. His answers and quick and specific enough so that I don't think he was some imposter. I mean, an imposter would have likely picked a higher profile player to imitate. Whew...

Love the part where he pauses and then just rips Roy and the basketball program. Like he thought about it and then said, "bleep it, I ain't protecting those guys!"

-Jason "Seth Davis just tweeted about this, so you can bet the mainstream media is going to pick up on it" Evans

Duvall
11-10-2014, 06:04 PM
-Jason "Seth Davis just tweeted about this, so you can bet the mainstream media is going to pick up on it" Evans

Where "mainstream media" fails to include a certain media conglomerate from central Connecticut. Well, maybe Powell will get a call from Outside the Lines.

So a tifo of Roy Williams with "YOU KNOW HE KNOW" in 4-ft high letters - too much?

BigWayne
11-10-2014, 06:09 PM
-Jason "Seth Davis just tweeted about this, so you can bet the mainstream media is going to pick up on it" Evans
Yep, CBS has it up already. http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/eye-on-college-football/24796277/report-ex-tar-heels-dl-tydreke-powell-sounds-off-on-unc-academic-scandal

elvis14
11-10-2014, 06:21 PM
Purportedly, Tydreke Powell (http://www.goheels.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=205676723) called into a local radio station and explained his particpitaion in the paper class program and how basketball players had other students take their tests for them. Audio available here. (http://d24edc7kaf4agn.cloudfront.net/1639552/unc-player-on-academic-controversy.mp3?rhihttphost=media.102jamz.com) Name of the hoops player is bleeped out. The link also has what must be a computer generated transcript you can read, but I would advise against it as it might make your brain hurt. The computer was not quite able to decode Tydreke's accent. http://media.102jamz.com/device/mobile/a/99022771/3live-crew-interviews-tydreke-powell-of-unc.htm

There is also a reference in this about going to some test facility in Durham and being told to get a bunch of answers wrong. The PP guys are insinuating that this is referring to getting a learning disability declaration which then allows them to have "note takers" go to class with them, etc. This could be a new can of worms being opened up and dumped on Franklin St.

Wow, that's just raw. He says that Roy knew and then he calls him a snake. I've never been a fan of a UNC-CHeats football player....until now! I checked ESPN, they haven't picked up the story...yet :rolleyes:

howardlander
11-10-2014, 06:31 PM
Wow, that's just raw. He says that Roy knew and then he calls him a snake. I've never been a fan of a UNC-CHeats football player....until now! I checked ESPN, they haven't picked up the story...yet :rolleyes:

Truly damning. You just have too hope it's not happening at every school. "If you wanted an education, you should have gone to Harvard" . Wow. Is there any confirmation that this guy is really who he says he is?

Howard

devildeac
11-10-2014, 06:35 PM
From the CBS on-line transcript:

"Man...man, you know he knows," Powell replied. "Roy Williams is a snake, man."

devildeac
11-10-2014, 06:37 PM
Truly damning. You just have too hope it's not happening at every school. "If you wanted an education, you should have gone to Harvard" . Wow. Is there any confirmation that this guy is really who he says he is?

Howard

IC will probably say it's someone from PackPride:rolleyes:.

arnie
11-10-2014, 06:41 PM
IC will probably say it's someone from PackPride:rolleyes:.

Or Lance Thomas, or Cory Maggette, or K. Those are the only Duke names they know.

CameronBlue
11-10-2014, 07:33 PM
From the CBS on-line transcript:

"Man...man, you know he knows," Powell replied. "Roy Williams is a snake, man."

That explains the vertigo and the guy I keep seeing behind the bench in a turban playing the clarinet.

(NO disrespect intended to Joan Crawford, Carnac the Magnificent and those of the turban-wearing persuasion!!)

OldPhiKap
11-10-2014, 07:40 PM
From the CBS on-line transcript:

"Man...man, you know he knows," Powell replied. "Roy Williams is a snake, man."

"He's a cold-hearted snake
Look into his eyes;
Oh, oh --
He's been telling lies."

Newton_14
11-10-2014, 07:41 PM
Purportedly, Tydreke Powell (http://www.goheels.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=205676723) called into a local radio station and explained his particpitaion in the paper class program and how basketball players had other students take their tests for them. Audio available here. (http://d24edc7kaf4agn.cloudfront.net/1639552/unc-player-on-academic-controversy.mp3?rhihttphost=media.102jamz.com) Name of the hoops player is bleeped out. The link also has what must be a computer generated transcript you can read, but I would advise against it as it might make your brain hurt. The computer was not quite able to decode Tydreke's accent. http://media.102jamz.com/device/mobile/a/99022771/3live-crew-interviews-tydreke-powell-of-unc.htm

There is also a reference in this about going to some test facility in Durham and being told to get a bunch of answers wrong. The PP guys are insinuating that this is referring to getting a learning disability declaration which then allows them to have "note takers" go to class with them, etc. This could be a new can of worms being opened up and dumped on Franklin St.
Thanks for bringing this to light here Wayne.

Oh man, that audio is nasty!! That is brutal for Carolina. He lays the basketball program out!!

That sounds genuine. His answers and quick and specific enough so that I don't think he was some imposter. I mean, an imposter would have likely picked a higher profile player to imitate. Whew...

Love the part where he pauses and then just rips Roy and the basketball program. Like he thought about it and then said, "bleep it, I ain't protecting those guys!"

-Jason "Seth Davis just tweeted about this, so you can bet the mainstream media is going to pick up on it" Evans

Yup. I heard it this afternoon on the ride home from work. Adam Gold and Joe Ovies played the audio on their show and then discussed. They went on to talk about how there is an undercurrent here whereby the Football Players have gotten sick and tired of being the fall guys and are not exactly huge fans of their basketball players.

The infighting is in full force. The real AFAM students are ticked off, the Football Players are ticked off, the Faculty are ticked off, who's next?

It is going to be a great Houdini Act if Roy Williams somehow is still the Head Coach over there much longer.... what a fraud.

CameronBornAndBred
11-10-2014, 07:44 PM
It is going to be a great Houdini Act if Roy Williams somehow is still the Head Coach over there much longer.... what a fraud.
I hope his resignation letter starts with "dadgummit".

roywhite
11-10-2014, 07:44 PM
The infighting is in full force. The real AFAM students are ticked off, the Football Players are ticked off, the Faculty are ticked off, who's next?

It is going to be a great Houdini Act if Roy Williams somehow is still the Head Coach over there much longer.... what a fraud.

Yeah, let the wagers begin:

What's the over/under on how long Roy lasts?
Does he make the New Year 2015?

Which goes first, Roy or the 2005 banner?

hudlow
11-10-2014, 07:52 PM
Here's a song for the Duke Pep band....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULx9k2QkL94

Duvall
11-10-2014, 08:02 PM
Truly damning. You just have too hope it's not happening at every school. "If you wanted an education, you should have gone to Harvard" . Wow. Is there any confirmation that this guy is really who he says he is?

Howard

Not yet. Radio hoaxes do happen all the time...

sagegrouse
11-10-2014, 08:09 PM
I took this from Pack Pride, who I am sure would not object to this use:


Powell: Hey, I’ve been hearing about this Carolina stuff man. This Tydreke Powell. I played D-tackle. I got that old shiv(???) man. And Matthew you right, Matthew, dude is ignorant man. You know [inaudible] you know what I’m saying some stupid stuff like. But let me tell you man, it ain’t the players, you know what I’m saying, cause I’m taking this to the hall. You know everybody’s blaming the players and stuff. If you ain’t inside of there man, you don’t know what is going on. But Butch Davis came into a meeting one day and man and said if y’all came here for an education, you should have went to Harvard man. When you come and say that to 17, 18 year old black…, majority of us were black. We come straight from the hood. I’m gonna say it man. It might not be shooting and killing or whatever, but you know what I’m saying. When they come to these guys want Superbowls man, they coming with their Superbowl ring [**** bleep] like that man. These guys don’t come to our living rooms and say, hey we educate this whole football, football, then we like okay yeah, you gonna get your degree and stuff like that, but somebody say that man, you came here for an education you should have went to Harvard. What do…whose fault is it? That is our leader man.


Host: You actually played under Butch and that whole era?


Powell: 07 to 2011 man. And I played, you know what I’m saying


Host: Fair


Powell: It ain’t that we go in there and we wanna take African American studies. How did we know about it? They put it on the table for us, okay you can do this and do that. It’s one thing they tell, these coaches man, listen man, you a freak man, we gonna get you 3 and out of here. You know what I’m saying. You Most of us coming from little town. When we get into Chapel Hill, chapel Hill ain’t really big man, but you know what I’m saying. Most of us ain’t been around for stuff like that. Man, you know what I’m saying. These coaches man, I’m telling you man.


Host: Did you get your degree?

Powell: I did

Host: In what?


Powell: In communications


Host: Just to ask you, did you take some courses you know. Host 2: Did you take the African American, the paper classes?


Powell: I did


Host 2: Word, and everybody knew they were paper classes?


Powell: Yeah, every…I mean you, it was no class or anything like that, you know what I’m saying it was like a 20 to 15 page and you just turn it at end of semester. They basically like take you to like some page in Durham or something and they like you take this test and don’t get nothing wrong, we be like a experiment or something, don’t put these blocks together. I mean it was something simple 1 2 3, you could get it right, but they want you to get it wrong so they could had on paper to get you a note taker or something like that.

Host 2: This is the million dollar question. Did Roy Williams..did you think Roy Williams knows?


Powerll: Man, Roy…man you know he know man. Roy Williams a snake man.


Host: Were there basketball players in the same classes you were taking doing the same stuff you were doing?

Powerll: Listen, Let me tell you right here man. One thing about Carolina man. If you ain’t got a class with a basketball player, you better go find one. Cause If you got one with them, you know it’s an A. cause man, I am telling you. Like they breathe. Like those guys I mean you know what I’m saying. Butch Davis was kinda turning around man but we still didn’t get no respect. But when these guys, man, when you walk into class man and you see a basketball player and if you drop that class, you were just ignorant man. For example, I had a class with [basketball player name, bleeped], he was the only one in there with four of us, football players. He didn’t come to class at all man. He didn’t come into class at all. He came to take the class. He didn’t even take it. It was this girl in front of us who took his test, then she gave it to him and we ran a train on it. [Audible oh] But it is how it is. [Audible yeah] You know what I’m saying. People just looking from the outside man and gonna say these kids. No man, its them coaches man that’s telling us like what we were supposed to do man. We away from our parents and stuff, we looking up to this guy. You know what I’m saying. When they they come to your house, your living. They got them Superbowl ring on man. The last thing you thinking about is a class man. You know what I’m saying.

Host: I appreciate you for calling in. You goitta get back to this radio thing. You are welcome to call back anytime.


Powell: Oh yeah

blueduke59
11-10-2014, 08:10 PM
Where "mainstream media" fails to include a certain media conglomerate from central Connecticut. Well, maybe Powell will get a call from Outside the Lines.

So a tifo of Roy Williams with "YOU KNOW HE KNOW" in 4-ft high letters - too much?

YOU KNOW HE KNOW would make a great t-shirt

Kedsy
11-10-2014, 08:18 PM
I took this from Pack Pride, who I am sure would not object to this use:

Yeah, I'm going to withhold judgment until it's confirmed that this guy was really who he said he was. What possible motivation could he have for calling into a radio show? If he wanted the publicity, or simply wanted his story told, he could have gone to any number of legitimate media outlets with this and gotten a lot more recognition. I mean, the N&O would have jumped on it. Even ESPN probably would have aired this -- they put McCants on, after all.

Frankly, this doesn't smell legit.

Newton_14
11-10-2014, 08:35 PM
Yeah, I'm going to withhold judgment until it's confirmed that this guy was really who he said he was. What possible motivation could he have for calling into a radio show? If he wanted the publicity, or simply wanted his story told, he could have gone to any number of legitimate media outlets with this and gotten a lot more recognition. I mean, the N&O would have jumped on it. Even ESPN probably would have aired this -- they put McCants on, after all.

Frankly, this doesn't smell legit.

Unfortunately for them, this is one of those things that once out there, will be believed by many no matter if it was an imposter or not, and if unc comes out with some kind of proof it wasnt really him, it will be said that unc just paid someone off to say it was a hoax. Sucks for them but that's the reality.

I'm not convinced yet that it is real either but the damage is done.

dukebluesincebirth
11-10-2014, 08:45 PM
Cbssports.com and si.com are both reporting it now. This could be devastating to unc.

JasonEvans
11-10-2014, 08:56 PM
Unfortunately for them, this is one of those things that once out there, will be believed by many no matter if it was an imposter or not, and if unc comes out with some kind of proof it wasnt really him, it will be said that unc just paid someone off to say it was a hoax. Sucks for them but that's the reality.

I'm not convinced yet that it is real either but the damage is done.

SI does not hedge at all (http://www.si.com/college-football/2014/11/10/former-unc-football-player-paper-classes-scandal). They say it is Powell and don't even begin to consider that it might be an imposter.

CBS Sportsline (http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/eye-on-college-football/24796277/report-ex-tar-heels-dl-tydreke-powell-sounds-off-on-unc-academic-scandal) is more circumspect, saying "A person claiming to be a North Carolina football player..."

I am no linguistics expert, but here is a brief interview of sorts with Powell from 2012 when he was at the NFL combine. Sure sounds like the same guy on the radio.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q11DVjSm-ek

-Jason "I bet Powell is getting besieged by interview requests right now" Evans

Newton_14
11-10-2014, 08:58 PM
Cbssports.com and si.com are both reporting it now. This could be devastating to unc.

Question for the honorable Jason Evans... given the magnitude of this... shouldn't we expect that CBS and SI would have gone to great lengths to confirm this guy really was the unc FB player before running with this? Or have we simply reached a place where the attitude is "get it posted now, we will figure out later if this guy is real or not"??

Acymetric
11-10-2014, 09:06 PM
Question for the honorable Jason Evans... given the magnitude of this... shouldn't we expect that CBS and SI would have gone to great lengths to confirm this guy really was the unc FB player before running with this? Or have we simply reached a place where the attitude is "get it posted now, we will figure out later if this guy is real or not"??

There is also this post by his mother, if it is a hoax they are definitely taking it all the way:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B2H8s3TIgAEk2K1.png

OldPhiKap
11-10-2014, 09:14 PM
I think we need to hear from Larry Drew II and his family right about now.

BigWayne
11-10-2014, 09:31 PM
There is also this post by his mother, if it is a hoax they are definitely taking it all the way:



Real person on facebook, BTW - https://www.facebook.com/rita.powell.5
Probably will be harassed by UNC fans now and have to hide everything.

4478

Newton_14
11-10-2014, 09:41 PM
Thanks Acy and Wayne. Wow. Heavy stuff.

Here is another article from the N&O covering another faculty meetings. Link: http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/11/10/4311903_unc-faculty-want-more-input-power.html?sp=/99/103/&rh=1

Money quotes:


“Things are bad now at this university,” said Rudi Colloredo-Mansfeld, professor and chairman of the anthropology department. “We are sitting amidst the worst athletic/academic scandal in the history of U.S. collegiate sports and we are ground zero. I feel that if there was ever a time to change, if there was ever a time to bring things in line, now is the time.”

Harry Watson, history professor, said the university seems to be stepping back from responsibility since the Wainstein report.
“The response of the administration seems to have been that no further change needs to happen, all the reforms have taken place, so the most important thing that we should all do is make happy talk about Carolina and change the subject,” Watson said. “That just seems horrible to me in the midst of all this.”
Like or not, Watson said, the scandal does define Carolina in the eyes of the nation and world right now.

“We have broken our trust,” he said. “We can’t just claim that trust back. We have to earn it. And we have to earn it by confronting this, and trying to remedy our shortcomings, and not change the subject.”

Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/11/10/4311903_unc-faculty-want-more-input-power.html?sp=/99/103/&rh=1#storylink=cpy




Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/11/10/4311903_unc-faculty-want-more-input-power.html?sp=/99/103/&rh=1#storylink=cpy

arnie
11-10-2014, 10:09 PM
Yeah, I'm going to withhold judgment until it's confirmed that this guy was really who he said he was. What possible motivation could he have for calling into a radio show? If he wanted the publicity, or simply wanted his story told, he could have gone to any number of legitimate media outlets with this and gotten a lot more recognition. I mean, the N&O would have jumped on it. Even ESPN probably would have aired this -- they put McCants on, after all.

Frankly, this doesn't smell legit.

Seems more and more legit- but to UNC it won't matter either way. McCants was quickly termed a head case and this guy will be refuted as well. None of this matters to UNC as long as NCAA remains at bay.

dukebluesincebirth
11-10-2014, 10:17 PM
Seems more and more legit- but to UNC it won't matter either way. McCants was quickly termed a head case and this guy will be refuted as well. None of this matters to UNC as long as NCAA remains at bay.

At this rate, this school might self implode before the NCAA has a chance. Just give them a little more time...

wilko
11-10-2014, 10:22 PM
At this rate, this school might self implode before the NCAA has a chance. Just give them a little more time...

A game of implosion - chicken...
I keep thinking UNC is about the stall strategy until the NCAA implodes...

Newton_14
11-10-2014, 10:34 PM
A game of implosion - chicken...
I keep thinking UNC is about the stall strategy until the NCAA implodes...

hmmm... about that "implosion"... we are going to need a bigger bowl of popcorn ... see below

whatisyourexcuse wrote: T.J. Yates
‏ @ TJ_Yates (https://twitter.com/TJ_Yates)1h 1 hour ago
It's sad that a few men have tried to tarnish the reputation of so many that
did it THE RIGHT WAY! I stand behind Butch Davis.

John Broward
‏ @ ACCRecruitingXP 37m 37 minutes ago
@
Wykkd (https://twitter.com/Wykkd) @ MattMerletti (https://twitter.com/MattMerletti) @
TJ_Yates (https://twitter.com/TJ_Yates) What if one of you white guys were forced to play dumb for a
learning test by your coaches like he had to do?

(https://twitter.com/MattMerletti)John Broward
‏ @ ACCRecruitingXP (https://twitter.com/ACCRecruitingXP)36m 36 minutes ago
@
Wykkd (https://twitter.com/Wykkd) @ MattMerletti (https://twitter.com/MattMerletti) @
TJ_Yates (https://twitter.com/TJ_Yates) How embarrassing that must have felt? Purposely fail a test
so you can get the learning disabled tag at UNC?

Matt Merletti
‏ @ MattMerletti (https://twitter.com/MattMerletti)29m 29 minutes ago
@ ACCRecruitingXP (https://twitter.com/ACCRecruitingXP) @
Wykkd (https://twitter.com/Wykkd) @ TJ_Yates (https://twitter.com/TJ_Yates) embarrassed? By the coaches?
They bragged about it and coaches had absolutely nothing to do with it

Karamel Korn ‏ @
BurntKaramel (https://twitter.com/BurntKaramel)

@ MattMerletti (https://twitter.com/MattMerletti) @ ACCRecruitingXP (https://twitter.com/ACCRecruitingXP) @
Wykkd (https://twitter.com/Wykkd) @ TJ_Yates (https://twitter.com/TJ_Yates) So, if "coaches had absolutely
nothing to do with it", who did? Academic support?

Kedsy
11-10-2014, 10:48 PM
Seems more and more legit- but to UNC it won't matter either way. McCants was quickly termed a head case and this guy will be refuted as well. None of this matters to UNC as long as NCAA remains at bay.

If the radio caller was indeed a UNC football player, having said all that about both the football and basketball programs, the NCAA won't be able to "remain at bay."

They'll have to try to speak to this guy, and with McCants as well, and if these former players will talk to them (and assuming they stick to their story), with that on top of the Wainstein report, the NCAA will have to dig as deep as they can and then come down hard. They wouldn't have any other choice at that point.

CameronBornAndBred
11-10-2014, 11:03 PM
There is also this post by his mother, if it is a hoax they are definitely taking it all the way:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B2H8s3TIgAEk2K1.png
Any word from PJ's mom?

camion
11-10-2014, 11:17 PM
Wow. Just WOW!!

I thought I was cynical enough to wrap my mind around what was going on over there, but I grossly underestimated them.

My mind is blown.

gumbomoop
11-10-2014, 11:39 PM
Thanks Acy and Wayne. Wow. Heavy stuff.

Here is another article from the N&O covering another faculty meetings. Link: http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/11/10/4311903_unc-faculty-want-more-input-power.html?sp=/99/103/&rh=1



Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/11/10/4311903_unc-faculty-want-more-input-power.html?sp=/99/103/&rh=1#storylink=cpy

Thanks for link. The stuff about the composition of the Faculty Athletics Committee is interesting. Some of the A&S faculty don't trust their colleagues from the professional schools, thinking them stuck in the "Go Heels" mindset. They are also pressing the supposedly now-alert Faculty Athletics Committee on Bubba's special access to that committee. Doubtful that these particular A&S faculty will accept assurances that Bubba doesn't influence committee decisions.

martydoesntfoul
11-11-2014, 12:42 AM
The infighting is in full force. The real AFAM students are ticked off, the Football Players are ticked off, the Faculty are ticked off, who's next?


N_14, well said. I find this whole saga to be can't miss TV. The actors are all playing their parts... I wonder if there are other corporate, institutional or government scandals that come to mind as everything unfolds. Suggestions please!

This whole thing is coming apart at the seams... in some ways, it's remarkable everything held together as well as it did for so long; the deal with the devil, however, was that the pressure on the dam built to an excruciating level.

UNC is now way in over its head. And things are happening they couldn't possibly have imagined. I mean, who could have envisioned all of the following: Athletics vs. Academics (with huge implications depending on how the blame is assessed), black athlete exploitation, football vs. basketball, faculty vs. faculty, faculty vs. administration, UNC alums vs. UNC alums (anecdotally, it appears the ratio of apologists to those appalled has been shrinking), players vs. coaches, teammates vs. teammates? And then you have to separate the victims from the opportunists.

And again I ask: Bradley Bethel, where are you!? Oh yeah, never mind. http://coachingthemind.blogspot.com/2014/11/a-wainstein-report-exam.html?m=1

BigWayne
11-11-2014, 03:19 AM
Momma Powell's post is gone from her FB page. Hope she keeps copies of all the threats she most likely received.

arnie
11-11-2014, 07:55 AM
If the radio caller was indeed a UNC football player, having said all that about both the football and basketball programs, the NCAA won't be able to "remain at bay."

They'll have to try to speak to this guy, and with McCants as well, and if these former players will talk to them (and assuming they stick to their story), with that on top of the Wainstein report, the NCAA will have to dig as deep as they can and then come down hard. They wouldn't have any other choice at that point.

Maybe, but I tend to believe in the power of Swofford. I'm sure he has many moves remaining and I wouldn't be surprised to learn he's cooking a deal now. Possibly working with Bubba to offer a minor football sacrifice. I do not believe the bball program will be touched while he's the commish.

77devil
11-11-2014, 08:47 AM
Bubba was on the radio yesterday defending the integrity of Ol' Roy in contrast to assertions by Tydreke Powell.

http://northcarolina.scout.com/story/1479075-bubba-defends-roy-williams

“I’ve been in college athletics since 1988. I can’t do the math on that, but it’s a long time. I’ve known an awful lot of coaches and probably the second biggest reason I came to North Carolina, because of the reputation of the institution, but it was the personal integrity of Coach Williams. "

Take your pick. Roy is either a snake or a saint. There's a lot of white space in between.

Troublemaker
11-11-2014, 08:48 AM
UNC alumna / writer D.C. McAllister from the political Right weighs in (http://thefederalist.com/2014/11/11/in-north-carolina-fake-compassion-hurts-minority-students-yet-again/)

She goes after Crowder and Nyang'oro

wilson
11-11-2014, 08:55 AM
UNC alumna / writer D.C. McAllister from the political Right weighs in (http://thefederalist.com/2014/11/11/in-north-carolina-fake-compassion-hurts-minority-students-yet-again/)

She goes after Crowder and Nyang'oroShe lost me at "blame the libruls." This is not a left/right issue; it's a matter of rotten institutional policies and practices.

OldPhiKap
11-11-2014, 09:03 AM
My quick scan of the article is that she is not choosing sides; she is using the scandal as an example which she feels supports her own political agenda. Which is what political bloggers do.

Nothing substantive here, just PPB material that would have been locked by the fifth post.

If she is a UNC alum, though, it is at least good to note that not everyone over there denies it happened or justifies it because "everyone else does it"

Newton_14
11-11-2014, 09:07 AM
My quick scan of the article is that she is not choosing sides; she is using the scandal as an example which she feels supports her own political agenda. Which is what political bloggers do.

Nothing substantive here, just PPB material that would have been locked by the fifth post.

If she is a UNC alum, though, it is at least good to note that not everyone over there denies it happened or justifies it because "everyone else does it"

Correct. Folks, please don't go there.

There is plenty to discuss amicably here without dooming this thread with politics. This is the worst scandal in the history of college sports and it happened right in front of us in our own backyard, by our archrival. Don't lose sight of that. Let's keep bringing the real issues and sins to the forefront in this thread and leave the nonsense out.

thanks

CameronBornAndBred
11-11-2014, 09:08 AM
Bubba was on the radio yesterday defending the integrity of Ol' Roy in contrast to assertions by Tydreke Powell.

"I’ve been in college athletics since 1988. I can’t do the math on that, but it’s a long time."

Ahhh...he DOES fit into Carolina well!

Troublemaker
11-11-2014, 09:18 AM
Correct. Folks, please don't go there.

There is plenty to discuss amicably here without dooming this thread with politics. This is the worse scandal in the history of college sports and it happened right in front of us in our own backyard, by our archrival. Don't lose sight of that. Let's keep bringing the real issues and sins to the forefront in this thread and leave the nonsense out.

thanks

My bad, guys. My read of it was that this is another example of a UNC alum going into Banner-defense mode, focusing all the ire on Crowder and Nyang'oro instead of the institutional issues, including the roles that coaches and athletic administration played. That's why I posted it. The political stuff was almost a sidebar to me. That's my non-political, anti-UNC, "bring the banners down" bias at work for ya!

sammy3469
11-11-2014, 09:18 AM
Every time you think UNC has sort of hit the bottom on this scandal it turns out it was just a ledge leading down further into the pit of institutional exploitation. The "adults" over there are right, this isn't an athletic scandal, it's the entire university's leadership blatant disregard for their underlying academic mission in the quest for some more money and some fancy bangles. At least now the exploited feel more comfortable coming out and trying to explain what was really happening over there.

It's just disgusting more than anything at this point, and I hope some power somewhere (NCAA, SACS, someone in the NC political structure, federal investigation) has the political desire to actually force the changes that are needed over there.

Kedsy
11-11-2014, 10:01 AM
Momma Powell's post is gone from her FB page. Hope she keeps copies of all the threats she most likely received.

Or maybe it's down because someone hacked her Facebook. Has Tydreke Powell acknowledged yet that it was really him on the radio?

MCFinARL
11-11-2014, 10:12 AM
"He's a cold-hearted snake
Look into his eyes;
Oh, oh --
He's been telling lies."

Well, this may be a new high (or low) in pop cultural references on DBR--Paula Abdul! Well played.

BD80
11-11-2014, 10:43 AM
Bubba was on the radio yesterday defending the integrity of Ol' Roy in contrast to assertions by Tydreke Powell.

http://northcarolina.scout.com/story/1479075-bubba-defends-roy-williams

“I’ve been in college athletics since 1988. I can’t do the math on that, but it’s a long time. ...

The irony in that statement is just so rich.

However, if I were an administrator at Notre Dame, I would be checking if the golf team has been taking fraudulent classes!

hudlow
11-11-2014, 11:18 AM
Bubba was on the radio yesterday defending the integrity of Ol' Roy in contrast to assertions by Tydreke Powell.


“I’ve been in college athletics since 1988. I can’t do the math on that, but it’s a long time.

A true leader wouldn't expect his players to do something he couldn't do.

Tripping William
11-11-2014, 11:24 AM
The irony in that statement is just so rich.

However, if I were an administrator at Notre Dame, I would be checking if the golf team has been taking fraudulent classes!

So, Jennifer Wiley wrote all of that statistical stuff Bubba was spewing a couple of weeks ago to make this seem "insignificant." Wonder what grade Crowder will give him.

BigWayne
11-11-2014, 11:30 AM
She lost me at "blame the libruls." This is not a left/right issue; it's a matter of rotten institutional policies and practices.
This is curious in that it shows yet again the consequences of coming up with excuses and deflections from the reality that it is an athletic scandal at heart. The Crowder fake class scheme is just one part of the misdeeds but UNC has banked on using Crowder as the scapegoat in hopes of the rest of the scoundrels escaping blame. However, it is backfiring on them as non-athletic interests pile on from the left and even right now. This attack from the right will not be significant as the media and academic actors will dismiss it anyway. The more dangerous attack is from the left by the groups that are alleging racial undertones.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-11-2014, 11:35 AM
Well, this may be a new high (or low) in pop cultural references on DBR--Paula Abdul! Well played.

Agreed. Either way, that's a' sporkin'

BigWayne
11-11-2014, 11:39 AM
Or maybe it's down because someone hacked her Facebook. Has Tydreke Powell acknowledged yet that it was really him on the radio?

At this point, with her post praising him and no repudiation by either of them, I would bet money it was really him. Also, a former teammate is calling him out on twitter. I am sure this guy listened to it and recognized the voice.

OldPhiKap
11-11-2014, 11:52 AM
Well, this may be a new high (or low) in pop cultural references on DBR--Paula Abdul! Well played.

wait until I post my Vine of the dance.

Mal
11-11-2014, 12:28 PM
I mean, who could have envisioned all of the following: Athletics vs. Academics (with huge implications depending on how the blame is assessed), black athlete exploitation, football vs. basketball, faculty vs. faculty, faculty vs. administration, UNC alums vs. UNC alums (anecdotally, it appears the ratio of apologists to those appalled has been shrinking), players vs. coaches, teammates vs. teammates?

Don't forget alums vs. non-alum sports fans. That front may not have opened visibly yet, but there's definitely a tension out there between those who have a larger interest in the academic integrity/reputation of their alma mater and Joe from Wilmington who went to ECU but grew up rooting for Dean's teams.

Mal
11-11-2014, 12:32 PM
This is the worst scandal in the history of college sports

While I'm all about seeing this thing get proper attention and UNC reap a whirlwind of opprobrium, I think the word "academic" is needed before "scandal," just so we're not seen as overselling here. This doesn't even approach the level of karmic harm that came out of Pennsylvania a few years ago.

BlueTeuf
11-11-2014, 12:40 PM
http://thelifeunlearned.tumblr.com/post/102361961789/in-defense-of-uncs-tydreke-powell
As certain elements are inclined to paint yesterday's call-in interview as a malcontent, other voices ask for intellectual curiosity over condemnation.

cspan37421
11-11-2014, 12:43 PM
While I'm all about seeing this thing get proper attention and UNC reap a whirlwind of opprobrium, I think the word "academic" is needed before "scandal," just so we're not seen as overselling here. This doesn't even approach the level of karmic harm that came out of Pennsylvania a few years ago.

But UNC has been trying to portray it as academic issue, as opposed to an athletic one, in order to repel NCAA sanctions and interest. In fact, it appears that was also their reasoning behind ensuring a modicum of non-athletes were enrolled in the fake classes ... to give plausible deniability that it was created for the purpose of keeping athletes eligible. (of course, it's implausible anyway). They were also hoping that by casting it as an academic issue, they would be the judge of what qualifies as academic, not the NCAA. Of course the SACS may have something to say about that ... and their entire operation, perhaps.

So that's why this thread is titled UNC Athletics Scandal ... to remind readers that it was all about athletics. That was the end. The means were fake academics, but make no mistake, the scandal is athletic in purpose.

Henderson
11-11-2014, 01:13 PM
So that's why this thread is titled UNC Athletics Scandal ... to remind readers that it was all about athletics. That was the end. The means were fake academics, but make no mistake, the scandal is athletic in purpose.

UNC-CH has consistently tried to portray this as an academic scandal rather than an athletics scandal. Roy has been out front on that, saying the defaults were on the academic side, not the athletic side.

This finger-pointing across the academic/athletic aisle is baloney. When Roy goes into a kid's home, he works the academic side hard (or has until recently). Butch did the same thing. I can't imagine Fedora doesn't do it too. UNC-CH commingles the two and asks us not to do so.

In addition, the UNC-CH "student athlete" pitch in its marketing materials undermines that distinction. But the facts are overwhelming the puffery. If the athletic department really wants to separate itself from the academic side, good luck with recruiting. UNC-CH will have become a school where the recruiting pitch is, "We're here on behalf of the [sport] program. The school stuff is completely different. Talk to them about academics."

At UNC-CH, there seems to be a lot of cake being both eaten and had.

MarkD83
11-11-2014, 01:19 PM
UNC-CH has consistently tried to portray this as an academic scandal rather than an athletics scandal. Roy has been out front on that, saying the defaults were on the academic side, not the athletic side.

And the way I get my head around this is..the fact that the coaches are blaming the academic side is an admission of "lack of institutional control". I really don't care what you call it.

BD80
11-11-2014, 01:22 PM
UNC-CH has consistently tried to portray this as an academic scandal rather than an athletics scandal. Roy has been out front on that, saying the defaults were on the academic side, not the athletic side. ....

... UNC-CH will have become a school where the recruiting pitch is, "We're here on behalf of the [sport] program. The school stuff is completely different. Talk to them about academics." ...

Actually, if McAdoo's suit is to be believed, the athletes don't HAVE the option to talk to anyone about the "school stuff." But ol' roy isn't the kind of guy to lie, is he?

FerryFor50
11-11-2014, 01:27 PM
Any word from PJ's mom?

Not that I've heard. But I did read somewhere that once the phone interview took place, PJ Hairston immediately threw his textbooks out of his rental car window.

Tripping William
11-11-2014, 01:39 PM
Actually, if McAdoo's suit is to be believed, the athletes don't HAVE the option to talk to anyone about the "school stuff." But ol' roy isn't the kind of guy to lie, is he?

Actually, it may be worse. According to the Powell audio (if authentic), if a football player worried about the "school stuff," they were told they should have gone to Harvard.

FerryFor50
11-11-2014, 01:43 PM
Actually, it may be worse. According to the Powell audio (if authentic), if a football player worried about the "school stuff," they were told they should have gone to Harvard.

Interesting they didn't say "Duke."

Guess they understood the reality of that option.

alteran
11-11-2014, 01:55 PM
I hope his resignation letter starts with "dadgummit".

I hope it starts with, "I could give a &@$# about Carolina right now."

oldnavy
11-11-2014, 03:22 PM
I hope it starts with, "I could give a &@$# about Carolina right now."

Or, he could open with how much more passion his pinkie has for all things UNC than the average fan....

Mike Corey
11-11-2014, 04:11 PM
Just saw that the Duck Shop is selling this shirt.

Thoughts?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B1oOlIzCMAASzlq.jpg:large

Dr. Rosenrosen
11-11-2014, 04:14 PM
^^^^^ Honestly, that would take a lot of guts to wear in public except for at a Duke game.

BD80
11-11-2014, 04:41 PM
^^^^^ Honestly, that would take a lot of guts to wear in public except for at a Duke game.

How many unc fans can read well enough to understand the insult?

Kedsy
11-11-2014, 05:01 PM
How many unc fans can read well enough to understand the insult?

I'd say plenty. A lot of UNC fans didn't actually attend UNC.

Mal
11-11-2014, 05:01 PM
So that's why this thread is titled UNC Athletics Scandal ... to remind readers that it was all about athletics. That was the end. The means were fake academics, but make no mistake, the scandal is athletic in purpose.

I'm aware of this, of course. Was just chiding Newton_14 a touch for calling it "the worst scandal in the history of college sports" (italicization mine) and comparing it to another, non-academic, scandal in said sports history. No one's positing that we should be swallowing the UNC Athletic Dep't's characterization of this as a purely classroom concern that has nothing to do with athletic matters.

DukieInKansas
11-11-2014, 05:16 PM
Just saw that the Duck Shop is selling this shirt.

Thoughts?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B1oOlIzCMAASzlq.jpg:large

I think it should have the normal unc logo on the front and be in the normal pale shade of blue. How many do you think would buy it and wear it without realizing it wasn't a positive statement about the university?

wilko
11-11-2014, 05:16 PM
^^^^^ Honestly, that would take a lot of guts to wear in public except for at a Duke game.

I think having UNC FANS wearing THAT for 3 yrs - should be the actual NCAA penalty UNC gets.

moonpie23
11-11-2014, 05:27 PM
no, it needs to have the official logo.....need that negative association

BD80
11-11-2014, 05:58 PM
Just saw that the Duck Shop is selling this shirt.

Thoughts?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B1oOlIzCMAASzlq.jpg:large


I think it should have the normal unc logo on the front and be in the normal pale shade of blue. How many do you think would buy it and wear it without realizing it wasn't a positive statement about the university?

Well, technically, the grades were "made" by Crowder (and others). Brings up an interesting point: since the school routinely discloses what classes an athlete is taking, the right to privacy must be in the grade "earned." Since the grades in the fraudulent courses bear no relation to any academic effort by the athlete, is there any right to privacy in the fraudulent grades?

Henderson
11-11-2014, 06:10 PM
no, it needs to have the official logo.....need that negative association

It'd be funny, but it would definitely get the attention of UNC-CH's trademark lawyers.

OTOH, it would be fun to watch a long trademark battle in which the baby blue are trying to squelch a shirt with such a funny message.

ncexnyc
11-11-2014, 06:42 PM
Purportedly, Tydreke Powell (http://www.goheels.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=205676723) called into a local radio station and explained his particpitaion in the paper class program and how basketball players had other students take their tests for them. Audio available here. (http://d24edc7kaf4agn.cloudfront.net/1639552/unc-player-on-academic-controversy.mp3?rhihttphost=media.102jamz.com) Name of the hoops player is bleeped out. The link also has what must be a computer generated transcript you can read, but I would advise against it as it might make your brain hurt. The computer was not quite able to decode Tydreke's accent. http://media.102jamz.com/device/mobile/a/99022771/3live-crew-interviews-tydreke-powell-of-unc.htm

There is also a reference in this about going to some test facility in Durham and being told to get a bunch of answers wrong. The PP guys are insinuating that this is referring to getting a learning disability declaration which then allows them to have "note takers" go to class with them, etc. This could be a new can of worms being opened up and dumped on Franklin St.

It will be interesting to see if the so called testing facility is indeed the one operated by Ms. Katrina Farrington, a.k.a. the girlfriend of Fats Thomas. This is what's going around on Pack Pride, so take it with a grain of salt, but considering how tangled this web has become, I wouldn't rule it out.

tux
11-11-2014, 07:26 PM
Just saw that the Duck Shop is selling this shirt.

Thoughts?

https://pbs.gtwimg.com/media/B1oOlIzCMAASzlq.jpg:large

By far the funniest thing about that shirt is that it says "University of UNC"

sagegrouse
11-11-2014, 07:31 PM
By far the funniest thing about that shirt is that it says "University of UNC"

Actually, it says, "University of No Class."

tux
11-11-2014, 07:50 PM
Actually, it says, "University of No Class."

Oops. I see that now. Not clear from the design IMO. At this point, "University of No Class" and "UNCheaters" have unbelievably gotten a bit tired. I laughed more when I thought it said University of UNC.

Newton_14
11-11-2014, 09:46 PM
I'm aware of this, of course. Was just chiding Newton_14 a touch for calling it "the worst scandal in the history of college sports" (italicization mine) and comparing it to another, non-academic, scandal in said sports history. No one's positing that we should be swallowing the UNC Athletic Dep't's characterization of this as a purely classroom concern that has nothing to do with athletic matters.

Yes that is certainly fair and I took no offense or issue to the call out. I had meant to say worst athletic/academic scandal in the history of college sports and I stand by that. What happened at Penn St was a total different deal in my mind and I certainly did not intend to compare the unc scandal to the Penn State abuse of children issue. To me they are just two entirely different animals with the abuse of children being far more egregious. I never really think of Penn State when analyzing this stuff at unc. I think of past NCAA violations, as well as past academic scandals at other schools and for me, unc surpasses all others in that realm including SMU. In fact unc deserves the Death Penalty in every single sport that participated in my humble opinion.

People may have forgotten but there are so many prongs to this and the paper class scandal in AFAM and what will eventually be proven, several other majors is just one prong, though that prong is the most egregious of all by a wide margin. They exploited African American athletes in the worse manner possible, and even worse, one of the majors they used was AFAM which is just sickening on multiple levels. If proven that they also sent African American kids (and not white kids) to a Learning Disability assessment facility and instructed them to fail on purpose just to reap the extra benefits that come with being a Learning Disabled student, then I cannot even begin to put words to how bad and how racist that is. It's deplorable to say the least.

Let us not forget though the Wheels For Heels program, an agent runner on the FB staff in a coaching position, illegal benefits in money, gifts, special training facilities, jewelry etc, using athlete's to pimp the $1500 mouthguards, the Dental Office involvement, a star basketball players mom getting two high paying jobs she was unqualified for, that same mom being flown with her alduteress lover and boss all over the country on unc's dime to see not only her unc basketball player son on road and tourney games, but her younger son at Notre Dames games as well, again on unc's dime, illegal tutor help from a tutor selected by the FB coach, that same tutor paying off thousands of dollars worth of parking tickets the FB and BB players accumulated in their Wheels for Heels rides, the Fats Thomas the felon involvement with the players, his wife's involvement with the players, and finally Roy Williams of Nazareth allowing a drug dealer to live in his rental home. And sadly these are just the things we know about. Given how hard the administration keeps working to make the investigations stop, I suppose there are even worse things hidden in Pandora's box that have not come to light yet.

So with all that, then yeah, I am quite comfortable stating this is the worst athletic/academic scandal in the history of college sports. I am all ears if someone can bring to light a non Penn St situation that is worse than this, and again I personally don't feel you can compare the Penn St situation to any of these athletic/academic scandals at all the schools that have been busted over the years. Apples and Oranges.

I am also sick to death of hearing "it goes on everywhere, especially in the SEC". My own sister in law keeps rolling that out everytime we discuss this in our family and I just don't buy that any other school anywhere has done anything that even approaches the things that have been proven to have taken place at unc and like I said the sins so far are just the ones we know about. How many other unc sins have yet to come to light.

I may be naïve but I would be shocked if any SEC or other conference school has even approached this level of cheating.

grad_devil
11-11-2014, 09:56 PM
...on the 2005 Championship team:

http://www.citizen-times.com/story/sports/2014/11/11/roy-williams-tar-heels-stripped-title/18857879/

OldPhiKap
11-11-2014, 09:58 PM
Yes that is certainly fair and I took no offense or issue to the call out. I had meant to say worst athletic/academic scandal in the history of college sports and I stand by that. What happened at Penn St was a total different deal in my mind and I certainly did not intend to compare the unc scandal to the Penn State abuse of children issue. To me they are just two entirely different animals with the abuse of children being far more egregious. I never really think of Penn State when analyzing this stuff at unc. I think of past NCAA violations, as well as past academic scandals at other schools and for me, unc surpasses all others in that realm including SMU. In fact unc deserves the Death Penalty in every single sport that participated in my humble opinion.

People may have forgotten but there are so many prongs to this and the paper class scandal in AFAM and what will eventually be proven, several other majors is just one prong, though that prong is the most egregious of all by a wide margin. They exploited African American athletes in the worse manner possible, and even worse, one of the majors they used was AFAM which is just sickening on multiple levels. If proven that they also sent African American kids (and not white kids) to a Learning Disability assessment facility and instructed them to fail on purpose just to reap the extra benefits that come with being a Learning Disabled student, then I cannot even begin to put words to how bad and how racist that is. It's deplorable to say the least.

Let us not forget though the Wheels For Heels program, an agent runner on the FB staff in a coaching position, illegal benefits in money, gifts, special training facilities, jewelry etc, using athlete's to pimp the $1500 mouthguards, the Dental Office involvement, a star basketball players mom getting two high paying jobs she was unqualified for, that same mom being flown with her alduteress lover and boss all over the country on unc's dime to see not only her unc basketball player son on road and tourney games, but her younger son at Notre Dames games as well, again on unc's dime, illegal tutor help from a tutor selected by the FB coach, that same tutor paying off thousands of dollars worth of parking tickets the FB and BB players accumulated in their Wheels for Heels rides, the Fats Thomas the felon involvement with the players, his wife's involvement with the players, and finally Roy Williams of Nazareth allowing a drug dealer to live in his rental home. And sadly these are just the things we know about. Given how hard the administration keeps working to make the investigations stop, I suppose there are even worse things hidden in Pandora's box that have not come to light yet.

So with all that, then yeah, I am quite comfortable stating this is the worst athletic/academic scandal in the history of college sports. I am all ears if someone can bring to light a non Penn St situation that is worse than this, and again I personally don't feel you can compare the Penn St situation to any of these athletic/academic scandals at all the schools that have been busted over the years. Apples and Oranges.

I am also sick to death of hearing "it goes on everywhere, especially in the SEC". My own sister in law keeps rolling that out everytime we discuss this in our family and I just don't buy that any other school anywhere has done anything that even approaches the things that have been proven to have taken place at unc and like I said the sins so far are just the ones we know about. How many other unc sins have yet to come to light.

I may be naïve but I would be shocked if any SEC or other conference school has even approached this level of cheating.

UNC has lacked institutional control for almost two decades. Academics, athletics, outside money. You lay it out extremely well, Newt. There is absolutely no parallel. None.

PSU is its own category. It is vlle and awful -- but has absolutely nothing to do with this. Or any other school scandal. Comparing PSU to anything is a non-starter and just leads to deleted posts.

JMHO.

Tripping William
11-11-2014, 10:04 PM
"Roy Williams of Nazareth" made me spew my Lumberyard Oktoberfest beverage (the details of which belong to another Off-Topic thread). Sporks to you, N14!

Kedsy
11-11-2014, 10:08 PM
I am all ears if someone can bring to light a non Penn St situation that is worse than this...

How about at Baylor when Dave Bliss not only committed a host of violations but also covered up the murder of one of his players by another player? Not necessarily so much of an academic thing, but a pretty bad scandal.

BD80
11-11-2014, 10:26 PM
...on the 2005 Championship team:

http://www.citizen-times.com/story/sports/2014/11/11/roy-williams-tar-heels-stripped-title/18857879/

Interesting:

"Remember when McCants came out over the summer and talked about taking all those sham classes, insisted his teammates did the same and claimed fellow Asheville native Williams was aware of the scam?

It took the Carolina PR machine one day to refute those charges by producing a joint statement signed by 16 players off the 2005 team.

"With conviction, each one of us is proud to say that we attended class and did our own academic work," the players said. ...

Well, that statement appears as bogus as AFAM. ...

The Wainstein Report and more documents released recently show that at least five of those players that signed that statement took three bogus classes each that spring semester."


I'm betting those five weren't bench warmers.

CameronBlue
11-11-2014, 10:26 PM
How about at Baylor when Dave Bliss not only committed a host of violations but also covered up the murder of one of his players by another player? Not necessarily so much of an academic thing, but a pretty bad scandal.

Assuming there are no more skeletons in Roy's closet, literally.

OldPhiKap
11-11-2014, 10:46 PM
...on the 2005 Championship team:

http://www.citizen-times.com/story/sports/2014/11/11/roy-williams-tar-heels-stripped-title/18857879/

BRUTAL takedown from the heart of Roy Country. Great find, necessary read.

Newton_14
11-11-2014, 11:09 PM
BRUTAL takedown from the heart of Roy Country. Great find, necessary read.
Agreed and the below excerpt from the article spells it out very nicely indeed.

From the article:

BY THE NUMBERS
Figures from North Carolina's 2004-05 national championship basketball team that took a large number of sham classes in the African American Studies program.
35: Number of enrollments in AFAM classes during the school year.
33: Number of wins.
10: Number of players who majored in AFAM.
16.4: Points per game average of Asheville's Rashad McCants.
3.5: McCants' spring semester grade-point average after taking four AFAM classes.
1.3: McCants' GPA in non-AFAM classes over three-year period.

nyesq83
11-11-2014, 11:21 PM
You Should Have Went To Harvard

westwall
11-11-2014, 11:25 PM
BRUTAL takedown from the heart of Roy Country. Great find, necessary read.

Yep. the Asheville paper has a brutal but well-put-together indictment of the 2005 class and Roy that begs to be read. Truly AMAZING!

Duvall
11-11-2014, 11:37 PM
PSU is its own category. It is vlle and awful -- but has absolutely nothing to do with this. Or any other school scandal. Comparing PSU to anything is a non-starter and just leads to deleted posts.

JMHO.

Well, maybe. I do think that the paranoid devolution of Penn State's "Paterno people" provides an illustration of what we can expect from the UNC diehards as their situation gets worse. It won't be pretty.

FerryFor50
11-11-2014, 11:58 PM
Well, maybe. I do think that the paranoid devolution of Penn State's "Paterno people" provides an illustration of what we can expect from the UNC diehards as their situation gets worse. It won't be pretty.

The difference is, it's really hard to believe someone would cover for a child predator to avoid sanctions/losing football games. That's why I think people had such a backlash against negative Paterno comments.

It's not all that hard to believe someone would be complicit in academic fraud.

gumbomoop
11-12-2014, 02:10 AM
...on the 2005 Championship team:

http://www.citizen-times.com/story/sports/2014/11/11/roy-williams-tar-heels-stripped-title/18857879/

Thanks to grad_devil for the link to this important find.



"With conviction, each one of us is proud to say that we attended class and did our own academic work," the players said. ...

Well, that statement appears as bogus as AFAM. ...

The Wainstein Report and more documents released recently show that at least five of those players that signed that statement took three bogus classes each that spring semester."

I'm betting those five weren't bench warmers.

Yes, I assume the bench warmers often went to class and did their own work. I also assume, but am curious as to whether, the bench warmers knew the truth about the five who didn't always go to class and produce their own work.



BRUTAL takedown from the heart of Roy Country. Great find, necessary read.



Yep. the Asheville paper has a brutal but well-put-together indictment of the 2005 class and Roy that begs to be read. Truly AMAZING!

Agree, indictment and takedown.

Only one disagreement with the indictment. Conceivably, someone could complain that what follows is hair-splitting, but here in advance I'll insist that this is a substantive point of some importance.

Keith Jarrett, author of the otherwise excellent Citizen-Times article, too loosely refers to "the sham African American Studies program designed to produce As for athletes." Similarly, BD80's otherwise excellent post overgeneralizes about the "bogus AFAM."

I will concede that evidence in the Wainstein report indicates that one, possibly two, profs other than Nyang'oro knew something was rotten in their department, but there's no evidence that the program itself was a sham. Roy, Bubba, and the "This was an academic fraud" crowd would like us to believe that; but the truth seems to be, instead, that a legitimate major, undoubtedly characterized, as with pretty much all majors, by admirable strengths and occasional weaknesses, was manipulated to keep athletes eligible.

AFAM was not at its inception nor is it now a sham, either at UNC or at Duke.

On the one hand, this is but a minor flaw in Jarrett's, yes, "brutal takedown" and absolutely "necessary read." The loose, misleading description of AFAM in no way detracts from the substance of the "indictment" of the athlete-eligibility fraud. But, unless one actually believes that the entire AFAM program was "bogus," a "sham," it's best to indict the guilty parties, the athlete-eligibility schemers and enablers. There's no evidence that the vast majority of AFAM instructors and students participated in the fraud. They were unwitting victims, now too easily themselves indicted and taken down.

I myself haven't yet decided whether Roy is totally "a snake," a bogus scammer, one who participated in the "calculated steering of athletes to participate in a fraud." [I am getting a tad suspicious......] But long ago I feared that loose charges about how UNC's AFAM was literally begun, years ago, with the express purpose of keeping athletes eligible, that such charges would not go away. In the absence of evidence, such charges should be considered bogus, and taken down.

timmy c
11-12-2014, 04:09 AM
4480

OldPhiKap
11-12-2014, 07:32 AM
4480

Well, we certainly knew he was a giant asp.

BD80
11-12-2014, 08:53 AM
Thanks to grad_devil for the link to this important find.

Yes, I assume the bench warmers often went to class and did their own work. I also assume, but am curious as to whether, the bench warmers knew the truth about the five who didn't always go to class and produce their own work. ...

... Only one disagreement with the indictment. Conceivably, someone could complain that what follows is hair-splitting, but here in advance I'll insist that this is a substantive point of some importance.

Keith Jarrett, author of the otherwise excellent Citizen-Times article, too loosely refers to "the sham African American Studies program designed to produce As for athletes." Similarly, BD80's otherwise excellent post overgeneralizes about the "bogus AFAM."

I will concede that evidence in the Wainstein report indicates that one, possibly two, profs other than Nyang'oro knew something was rotten in their department, but there's no evidence that the program itself was a sham. ... AFAM was not at its inception nor is it now a sham, either at UNC or at Duke. ...

... But long ago I feared that loose charges about how UNC's AFAM was literally begun, years ago, with the express purpose of keeping athletes eligible, that such charges would not go away. In the absence of evidence, such charges should be considered bogus, and taken down.

The basis of the indictment is the use of COURSES that were found to be bogus, all in the AFAM program. There were other AFAM courses taken by the athletes which may ALSO be suspicious, but may also have been legit, but they were not the fraudulent paper classes and thus not part of the analysis. There may also be non-AFAM classes which were part of the fraud (Naval Weapons Systems) but are not a part of the analysis. So the take-down is only using the cards showing, it could get even worse if/when the hole cards are flipped.

One nit, the "five" from the 2005 team who cheated by taking fraudulent classes is actually six. It is five OTHER THAN McCants, who admitted he cheated.

snowdenscold
11-12-2014, 08:56 AM
Similarly, BD80's otherwise excellent post overgeneralizes about the "bogus AFAM."


FWIW, all of BD80's post (except for the last line about benchwarmers) was actually just quoting from the article. He used gray text instead of QUOTE tags.

JasonEvans
11-12-2014, 09:10 AM
http://thelifeunlearned.tumblr.com/post/102361961789/in-defense-of-uncs-tydreke-powell
As certain elements are inclined to paint yesterday's call-in interview as a malcontent, other voices ask for intellectual curiosity over condemnation.

I fear that not enough of you have read the above linked article. It is a quite thoughtful piece that talks a bit about the tremendous academic gulf there is between some of the kids UNC recruits and the university's regular academic standards. I would hope that one of the things that comes out of this is some reevaluation of UNC academic exceptions for athletes.

The ACC is blessed with some of the finest academic institutions in the land who also play athletics at the very highest levels. At many of these schools, they refuse to compromise academics too much to field strong athletic teams. I know I have heard that one reason Coach K does not hand out more offers in basketball is that there are typically only about 10 of the top 50 players each year who he could even hope to get into Duke. I have a friend who works at Ga Tech who tells me that no more than a small handful of the kids who play football at UGA would be admitted on the Ga Tech team. Duke, Ga Tech, Wake, UVA, Notre Dame, UNC, BC, and Miami are all among the top 50 schools in the land according to US News.

Schools like that need to be more careful about the compromises they make for athletics. In truth, a pretty fair number of the kids who took those sham classes probably had little hope of passing a legit class at UNC. It wasn't just about Carolina making it easier on these guys, it may have been the only way to keep the kids from flunking out. A kid who has no real interest in academics or who simply does not have the skills to do UNC-level coursework has no place at that university -- even if he can be an All-American on the athletic field.

I doubt the current athletic bosses want it, but I think one of the things the faculty should press for and ultimately get is fewer academic exceptions at UNC. The sad thing is that a school with Carolina's reputation and tradition can absolutely succeed while not making academic compromises. Duke does it. Stanford does it. Notre Dame does it. There are many others. Sure, it may take a little more work and vetting on teh recruiting side of things, but in the end you will feel better about the team you are fielding and you will avoid anything like the mess in which Carolina currently finds itself.

The single best way to avoid anything like this ever happening again is to have kids who want an education and who are in school to learn... Because kids like that won't tolerate being in classes that teach them nothing.

--Jason "I know I am being idealistic and likely unrealistic -- but let me live in this artificial world of mine for a few minutes, would ya? ;) " Evans

http://platform.silverchalice.co/v3/images/contents/522f6dede4b0f8c1145849aa?apiKey=5ecca13245515009be 26f8c9241f2ea9

davekay1971
11-12-2014, 09:11 AM
AFAM was not at its inception nor is it now a sham, either at UNC or at Duke.

On the one hand, this is but a minor flaw in Jarrett's, yes, "brutal takedown" and absolutely "necessary read." The loose, misleading description of AFAM in no way detracts from the substance of the "indictment" of the athlete-eligibility fraud. But, unless one actually believes that the entire AFAM program was "bogus," a "sham," it's best to indict the guilty parties, the athlete-eligibility schemers and enablers. There's no evidence that the vast majority of AFAM instructors and students participated in the fraud. They were unwitting victims, now too easily themselves indicted and taken down.

I myself haven't yet decided whether Roy is totally "a snake," a bogus scammer, one who participated in the "calculated steering of athletes to participate in a fraud." [I am getting a tad suspicious......] But long ago I feared that loose charges about how UNC's AFAM was literally begun, years ago, with the express purpose of keeping athletes eligible, that such charges would not go away. In the absence of evidence, such charges should be considered bogus, and taken down.

You make a great point, but it's also a further indictment of the damage done by Walden, Crowder, Williams, Nyang'oro, Davis, et al. Of course the AFAM major and department at UNC were not set up to a sham, and of course most of the professors and students working in, or majoring in, AFAM were, and are, honestly pursuing real academics. Unfortunately, UNC used that major as a tool to keep players eligible, to cheat. By doing so, they devalued the major for every student and professor involved in it. Those people involved in setting up and executing the fraud are largely responsible for the shorthand that journalists, sports commentators, and friendly neighborhood bloggers are going to use, from now on, in discussing AFAM at UNC as "sham courses."

davekay1971
11-12-2014, 09:23 AM
--Jason "I know I am being idealistic and likely unrealistic -- but let me live in this artificial world of mine for a few minutes, would ya? ;) " Evans



I don't think you're being idealistic or unrealistic at all. Most of these kids who would likely flunk out of a real academic class at UNC actually could do fine...given the right kind of remedial work to get them up to speed. It would take work and effort and a real understanding of how to catch up a kid who starts out way behind on his academics, but it can be done...because most of these kids have a brain that works just fine.

Here's some simple steps:

1) The NCAA should grant an "academic red shirt" to kids the school identifies as being academically unprepared
2) Use that year to put them through courses that are specifically geared toward bringing kids up to speed.
3) Focus the academic supports staffs' considerable resources on tutoring those kids, making that year as effective as possible
4) if the kid is still deemed to be academically unprepared at the end of the year, allow at least some protocol for seeking a second "academic red shirt" year. If the kid simply cannot, or will not, get academically up to speed, then maybe that particular university is not the right fit and a transfer can be sought, again using the year of sitting out to try to help the kid academically.

The job of universities is to educate. One real benefit of allowing kids who don't make standard admission criteria into the school because they have special athletic talents is that a university's academic resources can be used to give the kid an opportunity to be educated in a way he/she otherwise would never have. Correctly identifying kids who cannot hope to survive a university's academic coursework, and taking time and making the investment to give them an opportunity to succeed will really help the kids, giving them the lifetime gift of being able to read, write, and do basic coursework at, if nothing more, an entry-college level. The sad thing is that everything I've proposed above is easily done with tools and rules already in place. There simply has never been the will to do it.

Henderson
11-12-2014, 09:36 AM
You make a great point, but it's also a further indictment of the damage done by Walden, Crowder, Williams, Nyang'oro, Davis, et al. Of course the AFAM major and department at UNC were not set up to a sham, and of course most of the professors and students working in, or majoring in, AFAM were, and are, honestly pursuing real academics. Unfortunately, UNC used that major as a tool to keep players eligible, to cheat. By doing so, they devalued the major for every student and professor involved in it. Those people involved in setting up and executing the fraud are largely responsible for the shorthand that journalists, sports commentators, and friendly neighborhood bloggers are going to use, from now on, in discussing AFAM at UNC as "sham courses."

Good point. A legitimate and culturally important field of academic study has been besmirched, sending ripples across the campus that reach legitimate students and scholars. I'd like to hear the university acknowledge that bit of collateral damage and express some remorse.

The greater shame would be if the ripples extended to the AFAM field of study at other universities, creating an impression that AFAM is a "sham" field for students who just need easy grades. If this had been the Economics Department, there wouldn't be any risk. But I fear there are some out there predisposed to think ill of AFAM studies anyway. Maybe haters gonna hate no matter what, but it'll be a shame if UNC-CH ends up providing an excuse for the disparagement, disparagement that may expand beyond their own campus because of what UNC-CH has done.