David Cutcliffe is doing something that's never been done

[prsansone]

As a Duke alum, I’ve been thinking about the rebirth of the football team and specifically if the
turnaround David Cutcliffe has done is unprecedented in college football history.

Its interesting to look at the new Power Five conferences and see who has had a like string of
historically bad seasons. The similarities are striking between Duke football with the
Northwestern Wildcats, the private academic powerhouse of the Big 10.

Northwestern went 8-79-1 for eight seasons from 1975-1982.
Duke went 10-82 for eight seasons from 2000-2007

Gary Barnett became the coach at Northwestern in 1992 and coached for seven seasons.
His career record there was 35-45-1 with two Big 10 championships, 0-2 in bowl games
and multiple Coach of the year awards

David Cutcliffe to this point in his seven seasons at Duke is 38-45, an ACC Coastal division title (another on the way), 0-2 in bowl games and multiple Coach of the year awards.

The major difference is Cutcliffe inherited the streak and started the turnaround from rock bottom.
Northwestern had 8 other seasons averaging 2+ wins per year before Barnett came in,
although Barnett clearly did not inherit even a mediocre program. So yes, although alike
Northwestern, Cutcliffe’s turnaround is likely unprecedented.

Also interesting on why Barnett left Northwestern. You know, he was the offensive coordinator
at Colorado when the Buffaloes won the National Championship in 1990. After long time coach
Bill McCartney retired, Rick Neuheisel came in and left quickly after the program got in academic
trouble. So who does Colorado call? Gary Barnett.

In an amazing symmetry, in 2008, Philip Fulmer steps down from Tennessee, Lane Kiffin comes in, makes
a mess in one year and leaves. Who does Tennessee call? David Cutcliffe, the Offensive Coordinator
on Tennessee’s 1998 National Championship team. The massive, world changing difference for Duke is
Cutcliffe stays, honoring his contract in the face of returning to his roots. Amazing.

If you want to think about what life could be with Duke football after Coach Cut, 15 seasons post
Barnett with two head coaches, Northwestern averages 6-7 wins per year and has been to 8 bowl games.

The good news for Duke fans is Coach Cutcliffe doesn’t appear to be leaving Duke anytime soon.
My guess is that Coach Cut goes for a long time after his seventh season (~8-10 more years?), and we exceed
the post-Barnett Northwestern run. The continuity of the head coach and staff is huge in building momentum,
case in point, the 2015 recruiting class may be Duke’s best ever.

Fun time to be a Duke alum who cares about football!

[roywhite]

The good news for Duke fans is Coach Cutcliffe doesn’t appear to be leaving Duke anytime soon.
My guess is that Coach Cut goes for a long time after his seventh season (~8-10 more years?), and we exceed
the post-Barnett Northwestern run. The continuity of the head coach and staff is huge in building momentum,
case in point, the 2015 recruiting class may be Duke’s best ever.Fun time to be a Duke alum who cares about football!

Great post overall, and yeah, imagine what Coach Cut can accomplish with better talent. Agree about the 2015 class, and the 2016 class is off to a great start, too.

One other measure of progress is to see players moving on to the NFL; good to see recent players like Kenny Anunike, Ross Cockrell, Sean Renfree, Cooper Helfet, and Juwan Thompson on current rosters. This number could increase with Laken Tomlinson, Jamison Crowder, and others in the near future. It's also an important recruiting tool for prospects to see that the program develops players for a shot at the NFL, in addition to having a great college experience/education.

[OldPhiKap]

Great post overall, and yeah, imagine what Coach Cut can accomplish with better talent. Agree about the 2015 class, and the 2016 class is off to a great start, too.

One other measure of progress is to see players moving on to the NFL; good to see recent players like Kenny Anunike, Ross Cockrell, Sean Renfree, Cooper Helfet, and Juwan Thompson on current rosters. This number could increase with Laken Tomlinson, Jamison Crowder, and others in the near future. It's also an important recruiting tool for prospects to see that the program develops players for a shot at the NFL, in addition to having a great college experience/education.

Last time I checked, ESPN had our recruiting class rated #27 which is great news. The tough news: we were sixth in the ACC. Hopefully this means that the league is improving, and we are in the thick of it.

Great OP.

[Ichabod Drain]

Platooning?

[DukeSean]

Last time I checked, ESPN had our recruiting class rated #27 which is great news. The tough news: we were sixth in the ACC.

Good recruiting class + Coach of the Year = excellent results
Excellent recruiting class + Fedora = ...yeah

[wilko]

We are very lucky to have found David Cutcliffe!
I hope this is the last job he ever has in football and retires from Duke in the very distant future.
But IF thats not in the cards - He has certainly lived up to his promise and "left us better than he found us".

I tend to think that after having lived in the "Win at all costs SEC" he finds being at a place like Duke refreshing.
What would the backlash in Tennessee have been if he suspended his leading rusher before a bowl game? Duke gives him an opportunity and freedom to do those things things with NO backlash. Our environment at Duke would give him more grief for playing an ineligible player than suffering a loss.

Seeing guys road-trip with books and computers on a bus for the 1st time... must have been profound for him. As THAT was an aspect of the established culture at Duke already.... and not one he wanted to change.....

I think he has more freedom here; than perhaps would in other places. That HAS to be a draw.... at least in my mind..

[tux]

We are very lucky to have found David Cutcliffe!
I hope this is the last job he ever has in football and retires from Duke in the very distant future.
But IF thats not in the cards - He has certainly lived up to his promise and "left us better than he found us".

I tend to think that after having lived in the "Win at all costs SEC" he finds being at a place like Duke refreshing.
What would the backlash in Tennessee have been if he suspended his leading rusher before a bowl game? Duke gives him an opportunity and freedom to do those things things with NO backlash. Our environment at Duke would give him more grief for playing an ineligible player than suffering a loss.

Seeing guys road-trip with books and computers on a bus for the 1st time... must have been profound for him. As THAT was an aspect of the established culture at Duke already.... and not one he wanted to change.....

I think he has more freedom here; than perhaps would in other places. That HAS to be a draw.... at least in my mind..


Yes, Duke is very lucky to have Cutcliffe. The increased commitment from the administration to support the football program was huge as well. Maybe Cutcliffe made that a prerequisite for coming, or maybe Duke was ready to make those commitments anyway. (I'm glad they did --- if Duke is going to do something I think it needs to be committed to doing it well or not at all...)

Cutcliffe will absolutely get several job offers moving forward. He seems very happy at Duke; my hope and expectation is that Duke will do everything they can to keep him. Local sports columnist Carlton Tudor continues to argue that the lack of fan support should get Cutcliffe to move on to a better spot --- that he deserves more from Duke fans.

While the lack of a full stadium is very frustrating, it did get me thinking about local alumni support. If you took a reasonable driving distance around the three triangle schools (2-3 hours maybe), I wonder what *percentage* of alums attend games at Duke, UNC, and State? The two state schools start with about 3-4x as many undergrads. Then their local alumni bases are much much bigger. As a percentage, their pull may not be any better (or even worse) than Duke's. I.e., Duke has a structural problem that can't be easily overcome. It requires figuring out ways to get folks with no ties to the university coming to games on a regular basis. Hopefully, the renovations will help.

[Henderson]

While the lack of a full stadium is very frustrating, it did get me thinking about local alumni support. If you took a reasonable driving distance around the three triangle schools (2-3 hours maybe), I wonder what *percentage* of alums attend games at Duke, UNC, and State? The two state schools start with about 3-4x as many undergrads. Then their local alumni bases are much much bigger. As a percentage, their pull may not be any better (or even worse) than Duke's. I.e., Duke has a structural problem that can't be easily overcome. It requires figuring out ways to get folks with no ties to the university coming to games on a regular basis. Hopefully, the renovations will help.

Agree. Are there any figures on student attendance? It's not a big population, but they're right there.

[sagegrouse]

While the lack of a full stadium is very frustrating, it did get me thinking about local alumni support. If you took a reasonable driving distance around the three triangle schools (2-3 hours maybe), I wonder what *percentage* of alums attend games at Duke, UNC, and State? The two state schools start with about 3-4x as many undergrads. Then their local alumni bases are much much bigger. As a percentage, their pull may not be any better (or even worse) than Duke's. I.e., Duke has a structural problem that can't be easily overcome. It requires figuring out ways to get folks with no ties to the university coming to games on a regular basis. Hopefully, the renovations will help.

As former Clemson coach Tommy Bowden, who had been coach at Tulane, noted, you have a smaller school with a dispersed alumni base. The latter part, the "diaspora," is an important in attendance at games.

When I was at Duke 100 years ago (not really, but I did get to know Mr. B.S. Womble, who was the captain of the first Trinity basketball team back in 1906), 40 percent of the students were either from North Carolina, or the "Carolinas." Today it's -- what -- 14 percent? Moreover, the younger alums I know about from my daughter's class and elsewhere leave for the major metropolises and don't stay in the Carolinas.

[Des Esseintes]

As a Duke alum, I’ve been thinking about the rebirth of the football team and specifically if the
turnaround David Cutcliffe has done is unprecedented in college football history.

Its interesting to look at the new Power Five conferences and see who has had a like string of
historically bad seasons. The similarities are striking between Duke football with the
Northwestern Wildcats, the private academic powerhouse of the Big 10.

Northwestern went 8-79-1 for eight seasons from 1975-1982.
Duke went 10-82 for eight seasons from 2000-2007

Gary Barnett became the coach at Northwestern in 1992 and coached for seven seasons.
His career record there was 35-45-1 with two Big 10 championships, 0-2 in bowl games
and multiple Coach of the year awards

Barnett isn't a bad comp for Cutcliffe. Having grown up a fan of the *other* purple Wildcats, however, I always think of Bill Snyder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_State_Wildcats_football#First_Bill_Snyder_e ra) when trying to put Cutcliffe's accomplishment in historical perspective. The K-State program when Snyder took it over was a wasteland comparable to Duke's, perhaps even worse. Four winning seasons between 1935 and 1990. One bowl in the program's entire history. The team was on a 0-26-1 streak when he was hired. By 1993, Snyder had the team winning. It went to 11 straight bowl games between 1993 and 2003, and over that time span won 11 games six times. Michael Bishop's senior year, they may well have been good enough to win a national title. Then Snyder retired, the program fell apart, and he came back and rebuilt the program into a top ten contender at age 400. In Manhattan, Kansas, where no one has ever been or would ever wish to go.

For me, Snyder is the gold standard resurrectionist. Cutcliffe, who has moved mountains for Duke, can absolutely be a competitor for that title some day, of course. If he simply maintains the pace he's on, he will.

[Mal]

Moreover, the younger alums I know about from my daughter's class and elsewhere leave for the major metropolises and don't stay in the Carolinas.

Yet another similarity to Northwestern. They benefit from being next to Chicago, but whereas Chicago is like a magnet for graduates of most schools in the Midwest, Northwestern's is a student body that's by and large not from anywhere near campus, and a lot of graduates end up on one of the coasts. It's also a miniscule alumni base to start with, compared to any other B1G school. That all adds up to having something like the 10th or 11th most alumni in the Chicago metro area of all the B1G schools (they're ahead of the two new members and Indiana or something like that), despite being 20 minutes from the Loop. Which in turn leads to a struggle, even today, to fill their football stadium, despite now going on two decades of competence and competitive team fielding.

Carlton Tudor, mentioned above, is proceeding from a false premise if he's saying Duke fans should be turning out more. Because, as of 5 years ago, there was no such thing as a "Duke football fan," just as there was no such thing as a "Northwestern football fan" in 1990. Unaffiliated local fans are a hard thing to create when you're not a land grant school. If we continue to be the best football team in the state of North Carolina for another decade, people will eventually get on the bandwagon and kids growing up in the Triangle will form some loyalty, but that's a generational process, not a 6 year process.

[rifraf]

Duke Football: Proof that you can fix almost anything by throwing a ton of money at it.

Seriously though, for the 4 years I was on campus football was a joke. I had respect for a lot of the players I was in classes with, but from a sports perspective it was a joke. When we first started hearing rumblings about the serious money being put into the program I was upset and disappointed because I thought it would be a waste. I didn't care about football (grew up never watching American Football), I didn't think it would work, and I wondered where else that money could go on campus. Fast forward a few years and I've never been so happy to be so wrong. I love watching on Saturdays, I'm unbelievably proud of what our team has become in such a short time, and the most amazing thing to me is that I care about football. It's been great, and I hope that there is no limit on what we can achieve.

[OldPhiKap]

Yet another similarity to Northwestern. They benefit from being next to Chicago, but whereas Chicago is like a magnet for graduates of most schools in the Midwest, Northwestern's is a student body that's by and large not from anywhere near campus, and a lot of graduates end up on one of the coasts. It's also a miniscule alumni base to start with, compared to any other B1G school. That all adds up to having something like the 10th or 11th most alumni in the Chicago metro area of all the B1G schools (they're ahead of the two new members and Indiana or something like that), despite being 20 minutes from the Loop. Which in turn leads to a struggle, even today, to fill their football stadium, despite now going on two decades of competence and competitive team fielding.

Carlton Tudor, mentioned above, is proceeding from a false premise if he's saying Duke fans should be turning out more. Because, as of 5 years ago, there was no such thing as a "Duke football fan," just as there was no such thing as a "Northwestern football fan" in 1990. Unaffiliated local fans are a hard thing to create when you're not a land grant school. If we continue to be the best football team in the state of North Carolina for another decade, people will eventually get on the bandwagon and kids growing up in the Triangle will form some loyalty, but that's a generational process, not a 6 year process.

All very true. And the model to build towards is Notre Dame, which has all of the same things in common with Duke and Northwestern -- except periods of sustained competitiveness, and good PR.

Rome was not built in a day.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Duke Football: Proof that you can fix almost anything by throwing a ton of money at it.

Seriously though, for the 4 years I was on campus football was a joke. I had respect for a lot of the players I was in classes with, but from a sports perspective it was a joke. When we first started hearing rumblings about the serious money being put into the program I was upset and disappointed because I thought it would be a waste. I didn't care about football (grew up never watching American Football), I didn't think it would work, and I wondered where else that money could go on campus. Fast forward a few years and I've never been so happy to be so wrong. I love watching on Saturdays, I'm unbelievably proud of what our team has become in such a short time, and the most amazing thing to me is that I care about football. It's been great, and I hope that there is no limit on what we can achieve.

Excellence in football with the associated expense is no more a waste for our university than the same sort of thing in basketball or lacrosse. The alumni magazine carried an article within the past year which did a magnificent job of showing so many ways Duke is benefiting from the resurgence of the football program. The concept of excellence in all areas at Duke was part of the framework of thought as early as the transition from Trinity to Duke. That same concept was involved in attracting Wallace Wade to move from Alabama to Duke, not the only factor, but the one that got the process started.

[Henderson]

As a Duke alum, I’ve been thinking about the rebirth of the football team and specifically if the
turnaround David Cutcliffe has done is unprecedented in college football history.

Its interesting to look at the new Power Five conferences and see who has had a like string of
historically bad seasons. The similarities are striking between Duke football with the
Northwestern Wildcats, the private academic powerhouse of the Big 10.

Northwestern went 8-79-1 for eight seasons from 1975-1982.
Duke went 10-82 for eight seasons from 2000-2007

Gary Barnett became the coach at Northwestern in 1992 and coached for seven seasons.
His career record there was 35-45-1 with two Big 10 championships, 0-2 in bowl games
and multiple Coach of the year awards

David Cutcliffe to this point in his seven seasons at Duke is 38-45, an ACC Coastal division title (another on the way), 0-2 in bowl games and multiple Coach of the year awards.

The major difference is Cutcliffe inherited the streak and started the turnaround from rock bottom.
Northwestern had 8 other seasons averaging 2+ wins per year before Barnett came in,
although Barnett clearly did not inherit even a mediocre program. So yes, although alike
Northwestern, Cutcliffe’s turnaround is likely unprecedented.

Also interesting on why Barnett left Northwestern. You know, he was the offensive coordinator
at Colorado when the Buffaloes won the National Championship in 1990. After long time coach
Bill McCartney retired, Rick Neuheisel came in and left quickly after the program got in academic
trouble. So who does Colorado call? Gary Barnett.

In an amazing symmetry, in 2008, Philip Fulmer steps down from Tennessee, Lane Kiffin comes in, makes
a mess in one year and leaves. Who does Tennessee call? David Cutcliffe, the Offensive Coordinator
on Tennessee’s 1998 National Championship team. The massive, world changing difference for Duke is
Cutcliffe stays, honoring his contract in the face of returning to his roots. Amazing.

If you want to think about what life could be with Duke football after Coach Cut, 15 seasons post
Barnett with two head coaches, Northwestern averages 6-7 wins per year and has been to 8 bowl games.

The good news for Duke fans is Coach Cutcliffe doesn’t appear to be leaving Duke anytime soon.
My guess is that Coach Cut goes for a long time after his seventh season (~8-10 more years?), and we exceed
the post-Barnett Northwestern run. The continuity of the head coach and staff is huge in building momentum,
case in point, the 2015 recruiting class may be Duke’s best ever.

Fun time to be a Duke alum who cares about football!

I don't think the Cutcliffe/Barnett comparison holds up. Cut has already been at Duke longer than Barnett was at Northwestern, and Barnett's success in building a program at NWU is questionable. Barnett wasn't at NWU long, and in his last two years, he won a total of 3 conference games. In fact, in his last year, his team won none. Then he left for Colorado, where he put the team on probation and got fined $100K for impermissible benefits to athletes. Since he left, NWU has had mixed success (as you point out), mostly not good. So it's not like Barnett built a legacy of success at Northwestern.

Barnett wasn't a program builder or even a great coach. He was a flash in the pan. And he cheated at Colorado.

Coach Cut's legacy will be in part what he brings now -- wins with integrity. But it'll also be interesting to see what sort of program he builds for the post-Cut era. I'm optimistic.

[Sir Stealth]

We are very lucky to have found David Cutcliffe!
I tend to think that after having lived in the "Win at all costs SEC" he finds being at a place like Duke refreshing.
What would the backlash in Tennessee have been if he suspended his leading rusher before a bowl game? Duke gives him an opportunity and freedom to do those things things with NO backlash. Our environment at Duke would give him more grief for playing an ineligible player than suffering a loss.


While I agree that Cutcliffe greatly values the unique environment and standard set at Duke, it's unfortunate that there is really no basis for an ACC school to lob ethical criticisms from a conference-wide perspective. Compared to the standards currently being set by our friends down the road in Chapel Hill or the conference leader in Tallahassee, Duke could conceivably feel more comfortable from an ethical standpoint in a conference with say, Mark Richt's Georgia or the (outgoing) Mike Slive as commissioner over Swofford.

[wilko]

Local sports columnist Carlton Tudor continues to argue that the lack of fan support should get Cutcliffe to move on to a better spot --- that he deserves more from Duke fans.

Hes not wrong. Duke FB deserves more Fan support now. They have a compelling product on the field.
Part of that is that the casual local fan (hey, that ME) has had high hopes and seen the wheels fall off before...
BUT lets also not pretend that Tudor wouldn't love to see a Duke team UNC could beat. He has an interest in Cut leaving.

My mom, my uncles are all Iron Dukes for Football and are generally AT the home games with a slew of my cousins in tow. I make it to several games a yr typically tho I have not gone yet this yr. The early slate of game just was not compelling to me, now I'm dealing with weekend scouting trips and a comiccon coming up... Life gets in the way. And its just easier to find a radio or TV.


While the lack of a full stadium is very frustrating, it did get me thinking about local alumni support. If you took a reasonable driving distance around the three triangle schools (2-3 hours maybe), I wonder what *percentage* of alums attend games at Duke, UNC, and State? The two state schools start with about 3-4x as many undergrads. Then their local alumni bases are much much bigger. As a percentage, their pull may not be any better (or even worse) than Duke's. I.e., Duke has a structural problem that can't be easily overcome. It requires figuring out ways to get folks with no ties to the university coming to games on a regular basis. Hopefully, the renovations will help.

I agree. Looking at Alumni and students ONLY is not going to be enough to fill WW.
For the local fans (and there are more of us than you may think) whats going to bring and keep them in?

Winning and competing - Continuing with a solid product is a central key. Keeping Cut is a central key.
Changing patterns of behavior - If I can work on my car, rake the leaves, play with my kids and listen to the game on radio or TV.... the question to answer is "What does the in game experience do to enhance that?"
Community involvement - the Durham Bulls do a great job of engaging family's in a friendly, safe, fun, atmosphere... They let cub scouts spend the night and sleep on the field. There is ALOT here for Duke to emulate and imitate.

The folks in MY family go to the Football games because its what they CAN do. Basketball is a bit in accessible for them $ wise. Demand and price is too high to pony up. My kids went with my mom earlier this yr to a FB game and got their picture taken with Sheed. They were on Cloud 9 for days after that.... continuing to have some level of access to Dukes most visible ambassadors is something to build off of.

[davekay1971]

Hes not wrong. Duke FB deserves more Fan support now. They have a compelling product on the field.
Part of that is that the casual local fan (hey, that ME) has had high hopes and seen the wheels fall off before...
BUT lets also not pretend that Tudor wouldn't love to see a Duke team UNC could beat. He has an interest in Cut leaving.

My thoughts exactly on Tudor. He remains a solid UNC homer, and he echoes the "helpful advice" that most UNC fans would give to Cut: good job, you've earned better than Duke can/will provide, move on. Watching UNC cheat like mad to try to win, and still get outperformed by their rival, who until Cut came was the punchline of college football, has got hurt.

As for fan support, Duke has one of the biggest challenges in the nation in getting people in seats. As pointed out, the student body is small, the vast majority of alumni don't stay in the area, and most of the indiginous local folks already have a strong tie to one of the other local ACC schools. It just not easy to find enough local Duke fans or local unaffiliated fans who will start following Duke, to get a regular 30,000+ person attendance in the stadium. I'm guilty as a local alumn who rarely makes it, but between a 2 year old at home and my wife and/or I having frequent weekend work requirements, it just isn't going to happen much. So, with a percentage of local Duke alumns and Duke fans simply not able to make it most weeks, and a relatively small pool of available fans to begin with, Duke may never get to the point of having 50,000 fans trying to come to every home game.

But that shouldn't drive off Cut. The other advantages noted upthread are real. As long as he has the facilities and support to competitively recruit and train, he knows he can coach as long as he wants at Duke, be appreciated for building a winning program from an absolute disaster, and never deal with the win-at-all-costs mentality he'd get at other programs. He probably feels very, very comfortable at Duke right now.

[53n206]

" And the model to build towards is Notre Dame, which has all of the same things in common with Duke and Northwestern -- except periods of sustained competitiveness, and good PR.

Rome was not built in a day."

This is indeed true. And look how long Notre Dame has been in the forefront of college football. However, Duke has been long in the forefront of college basketball. When we look at Notre Dame and Stanford we can see that a relatively small private institution can obtain national prominence. We have now basketball and lacrosse. We will have football up there with them soon.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

It's very true that filling the seats is a challenge.... there have been many discussions in many venues about attendance at lots of college sporting events..... a national trend that is also reflected in Cameron. Perhaps offsetting that negative factor a bit is the trend in monetary contributions for the football program which have gone way up, really fast with no end yet in sight. Attendance is one factor among many involved in keeping a successful coach.

[tux]

BUT lets also not pretend that Tudor wouldn't love to see a Duke team UNC could beat. He has an interest in Cut leaving.

Yes. He's written the same thing at least twice and you can tell he's almost offended by a successful Duke program. Along those lines, Joe Giglio wrote a recent column (sorry, can't find the link) arguing for a single ACC football division, where the top two teams go to the ACC championship game. He mentions UNC's favorable schedule in 2012, but I think it's obvious that having Duke in the championship game 2 years in a row (hopefully) is not something that's going to be tolerated... Replace "Duke" with any other coastal team in 2013 and 2014 (same schedule, same results) and my guess is that these sort of columns would never get written...

That said, the single division idea may be better than the current setup --- but any move in that direction is accelerated by Duke's success IMO.





Winning and competing - Continuing with a solid product is a central key. Keeping Cut is a central key.
Changing patterns of behavior - If I can work on my car, rake the leaves, play with my kids and listen to the game on radio or TV.... the question to answer is "What does the in game experience do to enhance that?"
Community involvement - the Durham Bulls do a great job of engaging family's in a friendly, safe, fun, atmosphere... They let cub scouts spend the night and sleep on the field. There is ALOT here for Duke to emulate and imitate.

Agree. A few points: Worth remembering that NCAA attendance is generally down across the board, probably due to the convenience of TV/internet, combined with ticket prices. If Duke's attendance is increasing (?), we're bucking a trend and that can be taken as (at least) some success, even if the stadium isn't packed. I thought about the Bulls experience as well, but despite a great game day experience (and cheap tickets) the Bulls very seldom sell out --- sometimes more sparse at the DBAP than WW...

So, continue to put a competitive team on the field. Keep ticket prices friendly for families. Make parking as convenient and easy as possible (if it's a real pain to go, some folks would rather just watch from their couch). Keep concessions varied (a lot of local vendors) and prices reasonable.

Free beer? (Maybe the NCAA rules just say you can't *sell* beer !!)

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Platooning?

Funny you should mention that... I've been watching lots of Duke football this year, and it seems that frequently Coach Cut will run 11 guys in at a time - completely turning over the guys on the field. Looking a little more closely, it's almost as though he's making entire line substitutions reacting to which team has possession of the ball.

I'm going to keep an eye on this, and hope to be posting a more in-depth analysis before the end of the season.

[budwom]

Pure buffoonery by Two Door. Cut is sixty-ish, makes close to two million bucks, will no doubt get another raise, he and his staff have completely secure jobs, he likes the institution and the institution loves him.

Speaking of Northwestern: not sure I could follow the previous analysis, but resurrecting NW was pretty much the same tough job as at Duke.
GREAT place to visit, we used to go during the Spurrier years...good fans, once severely downtrodden...one year we were looking for the
ticket window and some stranger just gave us two tickets. We play them in the next year or two, strongly recommend the experience...see you at Gibson's Steak House...

[johnb]

All very true. And the model to build towards is Notre Dame, which has all of the same things in common with Duke and Northwestern -- except periods of sustained competitiveness, and good PR.

Rome was not built in a day.

Since you mention Rome and Notre Dame, the big difference between Duke/Northwestern and the Fighting Irish is religion. It'd be hard for most current undergrads to imagine, but Catholics endured considerable ostracism and prejudice for most of the 20th century in the U.S. ND fans were generally people who had never been to South Bend but who felt huge religious/cultural pride at the team's success. ND's national fan base, their traditional rivals, and their tv contract are all unique for a reason--and probably couldn't be duplicated even by ND if they were to start over.

It will be interesting if the team's uniqueness can survive the continued dilution of national prejudice.

[luvdahops]

Since you mention Rome and Notre Dame, the big difference between Duke/Northwestern and the Fighting Irish is religion. It'd be hard for most current undergrads to imagine, but Catholics endured considerable ostracism and prejudice for most of the 20th century in the U.S. ND fans were generally people who had never been to South Bend but who felt huge religious/cultural pride at the team's success. ND's national fan base, their traditional rivals, and their tv contract are all unique for a reason--and probably couldn't be duplicated even by ND if they were to start over.

It will be interesting if the team's uniqueness can survive the continued dilution of national prejudice.

Excellent post. Worth noting also that Notre Dame wanted to join the Big 10 in the pre-war era but was rejected, with anti-Catholicism playing a large role. This further fueled their "us against the world" mindset, and was by no means forgotten when the Big 10 made multiple overtures to ND over the last 20 years.

Notre Dame is still a pretty unique school and program, even with prejudice diminishing. But they are finding it increasingly difficult to compete at the very highest levels of CFB, which is what much of the alumni (and non-alumni fan base) still expect.

[roywhite]

Excellent post. Worth noting also that Notre Dame wanted to join the Big 10 in the pre-war era but was rejected, with anti-Catholicism playing a large role. This further fueled their "us against the world" mindset, and was by no means forgotten when the Big 10 made multiple overtures to ND over the last 20 years.

Notre Dame is still a pretty unique school and program, even with prejudice diminishing. But they are finding it increasingly difficult to compete at the very highest levels of CFB, which is what much of the alumni (and non-alumni fan base) still expect.

Well, they're currently ranked #8 in the country, and just a few years past an appearance in the National Championship game. As with Duke, they have found an outstanding coach of their own in Brian Kelly, who is "waking up the echoes".

Good to see both ND and Duke in the Top 25.

[Mal]

Well, they're currently ranked #8 in the country, and just a few years past an appearance in the National Championship game. As with Duke, they have found an outstanding coach of their own in Brian Kelly, who is "waking up the echoes".

Fair enough, but I think we can all agree that team a few seasons ago had as much business playing Alabama as its star linebacker had marrying his so-called girlfriend. Kelly's doing an excellent job, but the days when you could count on ND finishing in the top 10 every single year are probably gone. I think that has less to do with lessening anti-Catholicism in America than demographic changes, like as the population moving southward and westward, and a media environment in which there are a plethora of football games splayed all over your 600 television channels at all times on Saturday for a 12-hour stretch, rather than one SEC game on CBS, one Big Ten game on ABC, and the Notre Dame game on NBC. In that sort of environment, even with your own sweetheart TV deal, there's just a lot more recruiting competition, compounded by not being in a conference. They'll find it harder and harder to make the 4 team playoff without a conference championship game to help them - if they don't finish the season undefeated, they're not going to get a lot of love compared to other one loss teams who are rolling off a conference championship game against another high quality team to finish the season. Not to mention that some years the schedule, while it may have looked really good when it was put together, will be subpar. With the 4 or 5 games vs. the ACC thing (no offense to our own conference), plus Navy and then a slate of mostly non-cellar dwellers but not top 10 caliber teams ('cause what SEC team would want to play Notre Dame?), they're going to have a hard time making the playoff unless they're undefeated. Look at this season: they have just one loss, and it's probably the "best" loss of any team in the country, but if they don't win Saturday at Arizona State they're toast, and even if they do, a lot of the teams in front of them have opportunities for bigger wins remaining (for instance, one of TCU or KSt. will get a huge win this week).

[-jk]

Fair enough, but I think we can all agree that team a few seasons ago had as much business playing Alabama as its star linebacker had marrying his so-called girlfriend. Kelly's doing an excellent job, but the days when you could count on ND finishing in the top 10 every single year are probably gone. I think that has less to do with lessening anti-Catholicism in America than demographic changes, like as the population moving southward and westward, and a media environment in which there are a plethora of football games splayed all over your 600 television channels at all times on Saturday for a 12-hour stretch, rather than one SEC game on CBS, one Big Ten game on ABC, and the Notre Dame game on NBC. In that sort of environment, even with your own sweetheart TV deal, there's just a lot more recruiting competition, compounded by not being in a conference. They'll find it harder and harder to make the 4 team playoff without a conference championship game to help them - if they don't finish the season undefeated, they're not going to get a lot of love compared to other one loss teams who are rolling off a conference championship game against another high quality team to finish the season. Not to mention that some years the schedule, while it may have looked really good when it was put together, will be subpar. With the 4 or 5 games vs. the ACC thing (no offense to our own conference), plus Navy and then a slate of mostly non-cellar dwellers but not top 10 caliber teams ('cause what SEC team would want to play Notre Dame?), they're going to have a hard time making the playoff unless they're undefeated. Look at this season: they have just one loss, and it's probably the "best" loss of any team in the country, but if they don't win Saturday at Arizona State they're toast, and even if they do, a lot of the teams in front of them have opportunities for bigger wins remaining (for instance, one of TCU or KSt. will get a huge win this week).

My argument from last year - except my endgame is ND all-in with the ACC, and an 8 or 16 team playoff.

-jk

[Tripping William]

Cut has been absolutely amazing and the premise of the OP is interesting for discussion. Still, LaVell Edwards circa 1984 says hello.

[prsansone]

Barnett isn't a bad comp for Cutcliffe. Having grown up a fan of the *other* purple Wildcats, however, I always think of Bill Snyder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_State_Wildcats_football#First_Bill_Snyder_e ra) when trying to put Cutcliffe's accomplishment in historical perspective. The K-State program when Snyder took it over was a wasteland comparable to Duke's, perhaps even worse. Four winning seasons between 1935 and 1990. One bowl in the program's entire history. The team was on a 0-26-1 streak when he was hired. By 1993, Snyder had the team winning. It went to 11 straight bowl games between 1993 and 2003, and over that time span won 11 games six times.

For me, Snyder is the gold standard resurrectionist. Cutcliffe, who has moved mountains for Duke, can absolutely be a competitor for that title some day, of course. If he simply maintains the pace he's on, he will.

Great, great point on Snyder. Not that there's any definitive period to the prior 8 seasons, KSU went 17-69-2 with an Independence Bowl appearance. Duke was winless in three of the 8 and 10-82. Snyder clearly has sustained a winning program for so long, we hope Cut maintains that pace.

[mo.st.dukie]

Yes. He's written the same thing at least twice and you can tell he's almost offended by a successful Duke program. Along those lines, Joe Giglio wrote a recent column (sorry, can't find the link) arguing for a single ACC football division, where the top two teams go to the ACC championship game. He mentions UNC's favorable schedule in 2012, but I think it's obvious that having Duke in the championship game 2 years in a row (hopefully) is not something that's going to be tolerated... Replace "Duke" with any other coastal team in 2013 and 2014 (same schedule, same results) and my guess is that these sort of columns would never get written...

That said, the single division idea may be better than the current setup --- but any move in that direction is accelerated by Duke's success IMO.



The problem with a single division is you are not playing a handful of the same teams every year. Instead of playing the same 6 teams every year you are possibly only playing 1 or 2 teams every year while the remaining 6 or 7 ACC games are rotated among the other teams (assuming teams would have home and home partners like in basketball). So similar to how we don't see FSU or Clemson every year we would also not see Miami or Georgia Tech every year but possibly play UNC every year. And you would STILL have unbalanced schedules because teams could still have a year where they don't play the top half of the league. The only way to not have unbalanced schedules is to have the number of teams in the conference either equal or be one more than the number of conference games played. Or the other more radical solution would be to do away with OOC games all together and have a 12 game conference schedule but fans and TV love OOC games.

[AustinDevil]

Free beer? (Maybe the NCAA rules just say you can't *sell* beer !!)

There is no NCAA rule against beer sales, on-campus or anywhere else. SMU is selling beer at both football and basketball games this year.

[tux]

The problem with a single division is you are not playing a handful of the same teams every year. Instead of playing the same 6 teams every year you are possibly only playing 1 or 2 teams every year while the remaining 6 or 7 ACC games are rotated among the other teams (assuming teams would have home and home partners like in basketball). So similar to how we don't see FSU or Clemson every year we would also not see Miami or Georgia Tech every year but possibly play UNC every year. And you would STILL have unbalanced schedules because teams could still have a year where they don't play the top half of the league. The only way to not have unbalanced schedules is to have the number of teams in the conference either equal or be one more than the number of conference games played. Or the other more radical solution would be to do away with OOC games all together and have a 12 game conference schedule but fans and TV love OOC games.

Great points. Maybe the ACC should keep the 2 divisions, but be the first conference to have a 4 team playoff for its championship. Top two teams in each division get re-seeded and play over two weekends. Not gonna happen, but that would settle things pretty well IMO.

The BCS needs at least 8 teams. 16 would be my ideal -- would love to see a few "2nd tier" teams get a crack at the big boys.

[uh_no]

There is no NCAA rule against beer sales, on-campus or anywhere else. SMU is selling beer at both football and basketball games this year.

it's a common misconception. Those rules I believe are generally at the conference level.

Most schools could fix attendance in an instance if they sold beer.

[Tripping William]

Great points. Maybe the ACC should keep the 2 divisions, but be the first conference to have a 4 team playoff for its championship. Top two teams in each division get re-seeded and play over two weekends. Not gonna happen, but that would settle things pretty well IMO.

Could at least one be an "Ymmm Beer" division? With Duke permanently in it? :D

[OldPhiKap]

it's a common misconception. Those rules I believe are generally at the conference level.

Most schools could fix attendance in an instance if they sold beer.


Could at least one be an "Ymmm Beer" division? With Duke permanently in it? :D

Duke should appoint devildeac as Beer Czar. We could offer the usual three or four standard beers, plus a different rotating North Carolina seasonal brew (I would include Sierra Nevada as a NC brew once they open in Asheville although we may have run into our first implementation rift). Attendance would indeed improve.

[snowdenscold]

The BCS needs at least 8 teams. 16 would be my ideal -- would love to see a few "2nd tier" teams get a crack at the big boys.

Maybe I'm in the minority on this, but I like the 4-team setup. 8 would be a stretch, and 16 is out of the question for me.

I like that college football has a different feel from college basketball. Don't get me wrong, each has its pros and cons, and I love the NCAA tournament, but I'm OK w/ the BCS only having 4 teams. You have to bring you A-game all season - you can't just get lucky at the end and take out a bunch of teams that had substantially better accomplishments. The larger the playoff field, the less significance the regular season takes on - something true in all sports. And as much fun as cinderella teams are in bball, I don't particularly want to see the #16 team get on a hot streak and win the title. Or have no top 5 teams in the "final four."

No matter what size you set the field at, there will always be bubble teams complaining, and I'm OK with that. I realize it often became very hard to pick the top 2 when 3 were worthy of the title game, perhaps even four, but if you're # 5 or #6 I say "too bad." You wouldn't even have sniffed the title game in the previous years, so what right is there to complain? Do better during the regular season. Similarly w/ going to the 68-team NCAA field: the last 4 out wouldn't even have been in a position to just miss a couple years ago, so tough luck.

[davekay1971]

Duke should appoint devildeac as Beer Czar. We could offer the usual three or four standard beers, plus a different rotating North Carolina seasonal brew (I would include Sierra Nevada as a NC brew once they open in Asheville although we may have run into our first implementation rift). Attendance would indeed improve.

Duke could both fix attendance and support local industry by featuring a few local craft brews on tap, with a free beer included in your ticket stub (assuming, of course, you're 21 or older). Imagine rolling into Wally Wade and deciding between the Aviator Hog Wild, an OMB Copper, and a LoneRider Shotgun Betty to help lubricate the vocal cords.

[tux]

Duke could both fix attendance and support local industry by featuring a few local craft brews on tap, with a free beer included in your ticket stub (assuming, of course, you're 21 or older). Imagine rolling into Wally Wade and deciding between the Aviator Hog Wild, an OMB Copper, and a LoneRider Shotgun Betty to help lubricate the vocal cords.

What? No Durham-based breweries?

[devildeac]

Could at least one be an "Ymmm Beer" division? With Duke permanently in it? :D

Put me in, coach, I'm ready to play.

[devildeac]

Duke should appoint devildeac as Beer Czar. We could offer the usual three or four standard beers, plus a different rotating North Carolina seasonal brew (I would include Sierra Nevada as a NC brew once they open in Asheville although we may have run into our first implementation rift). Attendance would indeed improve.

SN officially opened in River Mills, NC on August 3, 2014 when they concluded their national 2014 Beer Camp "tour" there. I was not able to attend :(. I think they were already bottling their PA and Torpedo brands before that but the grand opening was their beer fest that day.

If nominated, I will accept. If elected, I will serve (pun intended).

[devildeac]

What? No Durham-based breweries?

There are only 3, IIRC, but they would absolutely have to be included.

[uh_no]

There are only 3, IIRC, but they would absolutely have to be included.

Fullsteam
Triangle
Bull city
Ponysaurus

4!

[devildeac]

Fullsteam
Triangle
Bull city
Ponysaurus

4!

Good memory w/Ponysaurus. I've never tasted one of their brews and had forgotten that they opened.

[Bob Green]

Put me in, coach, I'm ready to play.

At what point did the topic of this thread change to baseball?

[devildeac]

At what point did the topic of this thread change to baseball?

I was responding to the Ymm, Beer division proposal from Tripping William so I thought it might have included all sports. Sorry:o. Carry on. Won't happen again, coach.

[Tripping William]

I was responding to the Ymm, Beer division proposal from Tripping William so I thought it might have included all sports. Sorry:o. Carry on. Won't happen again, coach.

There is method to my madness. :)

Part of the reason I gave the shout-out to LaVell Edwards earlier is because he accomplished what he accomplished not only without the benefit of beer (okay, Jim McMahon notwithstanding), but with the detriment of anti-beer. His immediate five predecessors had a combined record of 84-142-7 (.361), and BYU had never been ranked, ever, at all, until after he took over. To go from that to a #7 finish (with the Heisman runner-up) in 1983 and a natty in 1984 (say what you will about whether U-Dub should have won it) . . . in Provo . . . . with a recruiting hand institutionally tied behind his back. Cut's amazing, but I'm not yet persuaded that it's entirely unprecedented.

[davekay1971]

Fullsteam
Triangle
Bull city
Ponysaurus

4!

Agreed in principle to have a Durham beer (or more) involved...but since I've never actually tried one of these, I didn't include. Shameful admission, I know. I'll try to raise my game in the very near future.

[OldPhiKap]

Agreed in principle to have a Durham beer (or more) involved...but since I've never actually tried one of these, I didn't include. Shameful admission, I know. I'll try to raise my game in the very near future.

Never put off until tomorrow what you can accomplish immediately.

Just saying.

[devildeac]

Never put off until tomorrow what you can accomplish immediately.

Just saying.

Davekay lives in the Charlotte area so some of those fine Derm beverages might not be readily available to him. He's just going to have to join us (that means you and me) in Derm for a game. Soon;).

[OldPhiKap]

Davekay lives in the Charlotte area so some of those fine Derm beverages might not be readily available to him. He's just going to have to join us (that means you and me) in Derm for a game. Soon;).

Thinking the Wake game might happen. Working on it.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Duke should appoint devildeac as Beer Czar. We could offer the usual three or four standard beers, plus a different rotating North Carolina seasonal brew (I would include Sierra Nevada as a NC brew once they open in Asheville although we may have run into our first implementation rift). Attendance would indeed improve.

There are plenty of other Asheville brews I would include before fudging to include Sierra Nevada. Come to an Asheville minor league baseball game sometime - they do a great job of rotating some local taps.

[Kfanarmy]

Duke Football: Proof that you can fix almost anything by throwing a ton of money at it.

....I hope that there is no limit on what we can achieve. They'll probably never win Wimbeldon. :rolleyes:

[OldPhiKap]

There are plenty of other Asheville brews I would include before fudging to include Sierra Nevada. Come to an Asheville minor league baseball game sometime - they do a great job of rotating some local taps.

Looks like Duke needs to form the "Committee on Beers and Beverages" for the game.

Hmm . . . "CB&B" -- where have I seen that before . . . .

[weezie]

Looks like Duke needs to form the "Committee on Beers and Beverages" for the game.
.

I would be proud to volunteer.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Looks like Duke needs to form the "Committee on Beers and Beverages" for the game.

Hmm . . . "CB&B" -- where have I seen that before . . . .
I'll be a committee member, but DD needs to chair it!

To keep this thread seated, here's an excellent video with Steve Logan talking about Cutcliffe's worth to Duke. (And some stuff about NCSU)

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/colleges/video/14158461/

[nyesq83]

It is one of the best beers I have ever had.

We here in Richmond, VA are doing pretty well with our hops and malt.

RVA Beer Week is this week.

Stone is coming in 2016.

But back to Coach Cut! He has turned tears into beers!

Beer for all Duke sports now! Think local, drink local! well, tri-state area, anyway.

If no one comes to the games after that, we can call Wally Wade "the Hideaway."

[Tripping William]

Wrong thread, but best beer I have ever had is Granville Island (Vancouver, BC) winter ale. The caramel notes are outstanding. Can The Committee get it to Wally Wade. It'd probably convert my Heel Better Half.

[uh_no]

Wrong thread, but best beer I have ever had is Granville Island (Vancouver, BC) winter ale. The caramel notes are outstanding. Can The Committee get it to Wally Wade. It'd probably convert my Heel Better Half.

probably the best beer i've had is a hefeweissen from a small brewery by the name of schwalbenbrau in Schladming Austria. It's almost sad, I think, that one of my favorites state side is top of the hill (shammeeeeee)