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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 115, Livingstone 58 Post-Game Thread



Newton_14
11-04-2014, 09:12 PM
Woohoo. That's how you crush a DII game. No halftime deficit this year boys and girls. Discuss game here.

flyingdutchdevil
11-04-2014, 09:16 PM
Firstly, I know that this is an exhibition game, so please take comments with a grain of salt.

Secondly, that may be the best Duke defense I've seen in 18 months. The D was good, and against an exhibition team, if should be good. And it was.

The Good:
-Okafor didn't get that many touches, but when he did, magic happened. He is a man amongst boys.
-I have been down on Winslow because I had no idea what kind of player he is. But I can now say that this man is going to be one of my favorite players. Holy Cow! Defense, rebounding, 3pt shooting, his handle, his wonderful hair... he had a great game. Coach K - please do not make Winslow get a haircut. I beg you.
-Quinn Cook looked like the calm Quinn Cook. Was refreshing.
-Tyus Jones's ability to pass is insane. It's really an innate trait. Looking forward to plenty of double-assist nights.
-Matt Jones seems to have found his shot.
-What I saw from Grayson Allen was very, very positive: solid handle, good shooting, ability to penetrate. Also, Grayson has this Euro step that's not Harden or Ginobbli-esque, but it's shockingly effective.

The Bad:
-Sulaimon pulled off the butt fumble (or turnover) with Okafor early in the second half. He got pulled from the game 2 minutes into the second half and never returned. Not reading into it, but not a positive sign.
-Semi is very unsure of himself. Every time he touched the ball, he wanted to get rid of it like it was a hot potato.
-I have a gut feeling that this team will struggle with FOULs this year. Not just committing silly fouls (both O and D), but also shooting fouls. Okafor has an ugly FT shot, and the results aren't great either.

The Ugly:
-Chris S, one of the announcers, had this very uncomfortable man crush on Semi. I think he brought up 5 different Semi body parts 7 different times.

throatybeard
11-04-2014, 09:28 PM
The Ugly:
-Chris S, one of the announcers, had this very uncomfortable man crush on Semi. I think he brought up 5 different Semi body parts 7 different times.

Well at least he's not Brad Daugherty talking about Elton Brand.

NTTAWRT.

subzero02
11-04-2014, 09:31 PM
I am concerned by the descriptions of Sulaimon. How did Plumlee look? The descriptions of the Jones boys and Winslow are very encouraging. I am looking forward to watching the replay tomorrow.

mo.st.dukie
11-04-2014, 09:35 PM
The Bad:
-Semi is very unsure of himself. Every time he touched the ball, he wanted to get rid of it like it was a hot potato.
-I have a gut feeling that this team will struggle with FOULs this year. Not just committing silly fouls (both O and D), but also shooting fouls. Okafor has an ugly FT shot, and the results aren't great either.



I thought Semi looked comfortable out there relative to last year. He had 10 points and 8 boards, looked for his shot and didn't hesitate, even put it on the deck and drove the lane in what looked like to be a potential monster dunk only to get fouled.

Jahlil has a good shooting touch as displayed at CTC and has a good shooting form for a big guy. He doesn't look uncomfortable at the line the way Mason did, I don't think he has an ugly shot at all he just didn't hit the free throws. He has a natural shooting form so he can improve the FT shooting just with repetition, he doesn't have to break down his mechanics.

GGLC
11-04-2014, 09:50 PM
Really enjoyed listening to Chris Spatola share his insights, even if he did talk a lot about Semi's physique. Talk about someone who's familiar with the team.

Extremely happy to see how well Matt played. Okafor and Amile are very complementary. Justise is going to be amazing.

IrishDevil
11-04-2014, 10:04 PM
The Bad:
-Sulaimon pulled off the butt fumble (or turnover) with Okafor early in the second half. He got pulled from the game 2 minutes into the second half and never returned. Not reading into it, but not a positive sign.

In this case, Coach K has saved us the tea-leaf divination; he said in the post game presser that Sheed was not playing well. With so many people that can play, and play well, he can sub guys out. "When a guy has three fumbles, you put another back in."

Sheed can be so dynamic, I look forward to the next exhibition to see him put it together a bit better.

Switching gears: I enjoyed seeing all the guys, especially Tyus, Justise, and Jah. And, while I don't think we'll see much of him once ACC play starts up, I really liked what I saw from Grayson, too. He seemed comfortable and made good decisions overall (though I seem to remember one bad foul), and fought on D. He also has a really pretty shot, that kind where the net barely moves when he shoots free throws. He will be a real player, if not this season, then soon.

Henderson
11-04-2014, 10:15 PM
For subscribers, the full game replay was up on goduke.com less than an hour after the game ended.

weezie
11-04-2014, 10:29 PM
-Okafor didn't get that many touches ...

What's that all about?

JPtheGame
11-04-2014, 10:36 PM
What's that all about?

My guess is that early season is about adding to what you already do well. There were some early touches to Jah and it was obvious they could go there all night. Better to examine how the rest of the pieces fit. Just a guess.

Tyus Jones reminds me of Duhon. I know his ceiling is much higher but the calm demeanor, and consistent productive play combined with less than overwhelming athleticism makes me think of Chris. In any case, both are excellent decision-makers on the floor.

jimsumner
11-04-2014, 10:39 PM
Sulaimon struggled but he wasn't that bad, IMO. But I don't think there's any question that K was sending him a message. Duke is very deep on the perimeter and he had best bring his A game if he wants to see the floor. He didn't do that tonight.

But that's the only negative, from where I was sitting. The freshmen looked great, both sophomores are improved and Cook and Jefferson played quite well.

And how about Marshall Plumlee? He had some fumbles early but his motor never stopped. He knocked down some freebies, had a couple of dunks and was absolutely having fun. I talked to him briefly after the game and he said this was the first healthy summer he has had in some time. And he took advantage of it.

And yes, the defense was much improved. Winslow said that Duke needs to do a better job of communicating on D but K said Duke communicated well about 90 percent of the time. That's pretty good for November 4.

Note that Ojeleye drew two charges.

Note also that Duke had 25 assists on 34 field goals. That's exceptional ball sharing. This team really seems to like and trust each other.

cato
11-04-2014, 10:43 PM
Tyus Jones reminds me of Duhon. I know his ceiling is much higher but the calm demeanor, and consistent productive play combined with less than overwhelming athleticism makes me think of Chris. In any case, both are excellent decision-makers on the floor.

Heck, I'd settle for Chris Duhon's first year ceiling. :)

Des Esseintes
11-04-2014, 10:44 PM
My guess is that early season is about adding to what you already do well. There were some early touches to Jah and it was obvious they could go there all night. Better to examine how the rest of the pieces fit. Just a guess.

Tyus Jones reminds me of Duhon. I know his ceiling is much higher but the calm demeanor, and consistent productive play combined with less than overwhelming athleticism makes me think of Chris. In any case, both are excellent decision-makers on the floor.
Is the ceiling higher? Duhon had almost a decade-long NBA career. By all accounts, Tyus doesn't have Chris's overwhelming speed or defensive acumen. So even if Tyus has the more sophisticated offensive game of the two, his lack of surpassing physical tools may limit the ultimate heights to which he can rise.

jimmymax
11-04-2014, 10:51 PM
Re the freshmen I was most impressed with Winslow: great body, powerful inside and a better than expected shot outside.
T.Jones was very smooth and seems more dynamic than Quinn in the half court offense. More physical than I thought.
Allen missed a few 3s to start but heated up and has great form. Not just a shooter, he attacks the rim and will be fun to watch.
I have to say that Okafor did not show me much. I know it's game #1 but he looked tentative and was not strong with the ball. I did not see the footwork, inside game or rebounding. He seemed a step slow and (except for the alley-oops) hesitated and went to the up-and-under instead of contact. After the first couple of clunkers the free throws looked good. Nate needs to get on him.

Troublemaker
11-04-2014, 10:57 PM
I'll have to watch the re-play since I somehow got caught up in this mid-term election watching thing. (I know, where are my priorities?!)

But I will note from the boxscore that Sheed had 3 turnovers (which led the team) and 0 rebounds in his 14 minutes.

Coach K's points of emphasis mentioned this week were (1) taking care of the ball and (2) rebounding, particularly defensively.

With that said, I'm sure Sheed will be okay long-term. He'll probably respond with a great game on Saturday.

arnie
11-04-2014, 10:59 PM
Re the freshmen I was most impressed with Winslow: great body, powerful inside and a better than expected shot outside.
T.Jones was very smooth and seems more dynamic than Quinn in the half court offense. More physical than I thought.
Allen missed a few 3s to start but heated up and has great form. Not just a shooter, he attacks the rim and will be fun to watch.
I have to say that Okafor did not show me much. I know it's game #1 but he looked tentative and was not strong with the ball. I did not see the footwork, inside game or rebounding. He seemed a step slow and (except for the alley-oops) hesitated and went to the up-and-under instead of contact. After the first couple of clunkers the free throws looked good. Nate needs to get on him.

Agree with the above. Winslow does everything well- plays like a senior. I didn't realize his handle was so good as well as anticipation. Okafor is obviously a force, just didn't dominate tonight.

devildeac
11-04-2014, 11:19 PM
Agree with the above. Winslow does everything well- plays like a senior. I didn't realize his handle was so good as well as anticipation. Okafor is obviously a force, just didn't dominate tonight.

Is it time to start the Justise Winslow NBA Draft Vigil thread yet?

(kidding, kidding)

Ichabod Drain
11-04-2014, 11:28 PM
As far as the starting lineup, things might change up as the year progresses but I am really excited about that initial group. It's an extremely well built and effective lineup. If M Jones and Winslow can keep their three point shooting percentages up (say > 35%) I could see that lineup holding all year long.

Gthoma2a
11-04-2014, 11:33 PM
Sulaimon struggled but he wasn't that bad, IMO. But I don't think there's any question that K was sending him a message. Duke is very deep on the perimeter and he had best bring his A game if he wants to see the floor. He didn't do that tonight.

But that's the only negative, from where I was sitting. The freshmen looked great, both sophomores are improved and Cook and Jefferson played quite well.

And how about Marshall Plumlee? He had some fumbles early but his motor never stopped. He knocked down some freebies, had a couple of dunks and was absolutely having fun. I talked to him briefly after the game and he said this was the first healthy summer he has had in some time. And he took advantage of it.

And yes, the defense was much improved. Winslow said that Duke needs to do a better job of communicating on D but K said Duke communicated well about 90 percent of the time. That's pretty good for November 4.

Note that Ojeleye drew two charges.

Note also that Duke had 25 assists on 34 field goals. That's exceptional ball sharing. This team really seems to like and trust each other.

The problem with Sulaimon is that he is very volatile. He is dynamic, but he tries too hard to use that. He heaves the ball at the hoop at times and he tries to flail a bit too much. I was really disappointed when he drove, missed the shot and hesitated going back up the court to complain about not getting the call. Matt Jones is the anti-Sheed. He is not as dynamic, but he is steady and will probably be the more consistent player. His jumper looked nice tonight, he uses a floater and he did have a nice drive early in the game. Sheed will be icing on the cake, until he learns to play within the boundaries.

mo.st.dukie
11-04-2014, 11:40 PM
What's that all about?

One reason he didn't get a lot of touches was that Livingstone was throwing a lot of different defenses at us, many of which were zones which can be difficult to feed the post against. Thing is, Livingstone's defenses and focus on Jahlil created a lot of open looks from outside and our guys hit those shots and will need to continue to be threats from outside to keep defenses honest.

Henderson
11-05-2014, 12:05 AM
So many good things about this game. I'll just mention three.

Justise Winslow. Watching him play gives me the same feeling I had watching Danny Ferry and Christian Laettner early in their freshman years: "This guy is going to be really good." The feeling is tempered by the knowledge that it's unlikely that we'll have Justise Winslow for 4 years. But still, this guy is special.

Semi Ojeleye. I liked his game tonight. Good defense (including the above-mentioned 2 charges taken), and in the second half he seemed to gain confidence and comfort on the court. Strong rebounds. He got most of his points from the line, but that was the Livingstone defense, fouling instead of giving up easy baskets down low. There were two plays by Semi in the second half that illustrated that. On one, he got a strong weak side offensive rebound and was smothered going up for the chippy. On the other, he caught the ball at the foul line and drove strongly to the basket, once again to be fouled hard. And when he's fouled, he makes his free throws. Super nice stroke. He hit a nice open 3 in the second half too, having just missed one. Seemed a confident move.

Grayson Allen. We're going to love this guy.

mgtr
11-05-2014, 12:48 AM
I had picked Quinn to start over T. Jones. Boy, oh boy, was I wrong. Tyus is a great point guard. I now think that we have three frosh starters for sure, with Amile, Matt, Semi, Quinn, and, surprisingly, Grayson. Marshall is a sub for Okafor, and Sheed, well, I just don't know. Some breakthrough is needed there.

JPtheGame
11-05-2014, 12:51 AM
Is the ceiling higher? Duhon had almost a decade-long NBA career. By all accounts, Tyus doesn't have Chris's overwhelming speed or defensive acumen. So even if Tyus has the more sophisticated offensive game of the two, his lack of surpassing physical tools may limit the ultimate heights to which he can rise.

I guess it depends on how you define ceiling. While anyone would be happy with the duration of Duhon's career, i would think that Tyus is projected to have a greater impact on whatever NBA team selects him. I also think Tyus will be drafted much higher than 38th.

All I know for sure is that Im very happy he's at Duke now.

Acymetric
11-05-2014, 01:07 AM
I guess it depends on how you define ceiling. While anyone would be happy with the duration of Duhon's career, i would think that Tyus is projected to have a greater impact on whatever NBA team selects him. I also think Tyus will be drafted much higher than 38th.

All I know for sure is that Im very happy he's at Duke now.

Chris Duhon probably could have had a better career but he always seemed to have something else going on. Not that he was going to be a perennial all star or anything but can't help that he never reached his full potential in the pros although he did have a long career.

Edouble
11-05-2014, 02:52 AM
Matt Jones is the anti-Sheed.

Quote of the thread.

After tonight, Sheed is closer to being replaced by Grayson in the rotation than he is to being named a mid-season tri-captain (heated off season topic).

I understand now why Amile said that the upperclassmen are adjusting to the freshman. Holy sh**, I had no idea Winslow would be this good. Size-wise, we look like an NBA team for the first time in a long time. I hope we continue to run and pressure as the year goes on. Gonna have to rewatch the game as my Blue Devil Network stream buffering was more questionable than a UNC AFAM class.

Hair, hair, hair! What happened to the hair rules for freshmen? I guess those went the way of the tattoo rules.

dukelifer
11-05-2014, 06:17 AM
I had picked Quinn to start over T. Jones. Boy, oh boy, was I wrong. Tyus is a great point guard. I now think that we have three frosh starters for sure, with Amile, Matt, Semi, Quinn, and, surprisingly, Grayson. Marshall is a sub for Okafor, and Sheed, well, I just don't know. Some breakthrough is needed there.

Wow. One exhibition game and Sheed has become the 10th man? Sheed plays the best in big games. Need a little more data.

Bob Green
11-05-2014, 06:56 AM
Wow. One exhibition game and Sheed has become the 10th man? Sheed plays the best in big games. Need a little more data.

This comment accurately reflects my thoughts. I did not see the game last night so my views are based on past performance; Sulaimon is a fierce competitor who will positively respond to the challenge for playing time.

mgtr
11-05-2014, 08:01 AM
Wow. One exhibition game and Sheed has become the 10th man? Sheed plays the best in big games. Need a little more data.

I don't think he will necessarily be relegated to the end of the bench. He is better than he showed last night, but he needs to play under control. Coach K will bring him along. We had nine players who showed the "Right Stuff" last night, and one who didn't.

flyingdutchdevil
11-05-2014, 09:01 AM
This comment accurately reflects my thoughts. I did not see the game last night so my views are based on past performance; Sulaimon is a fierce competitor who will positively respond to the challenge for playing time.

100% agree. Sulaimon will be part of the 7-8 man rotation, no questions asked. I didn't think he played that poorly, but the Okafor butt fumble was an awful play (okay, it was kinda funny too).

Sulaimon is one of the only players who can penetrate in the half-court. Grayson, Winslow, and Tyus all showed that they can penetrate in the open floor, but Sulaimon is the only one who did it yesterday during a set play. It will be a good problem to have.

The most underrated player was our very own Quinn. Not only did his shot fall, but his leadership was exceptional. The freshman absolutely love Quinn. Every time the clock stopped and Quinn was on the floor, he gathered everyone together. Quinn Cook - when we're playing well - looks like a great captain. We need to see our leaders when we're not playing well.

UrinalCake
11-05-2014, 09:10 AM
Not trying to be a downer but want to ask seriously: what do you guys think about the number of threes we took? A box score that I saw showed that we took 32 out of 64 field goal attempts (of which we made 15). I know they were mostly open shots, but this is probably the smallest and worst opponent we'll face all year so I was hoping to see us pound it inside. If Okafor is getting 7 shots against an overmatched front court then that does not bode well for us getting away from relying on the three.

And again, I understand that this was an exhibition, it was a blowout, and coach K even said that he was going to use the first half to look at what everyone can do. But I mean if we average 30 threes over the course of the season when we have a talent like Oak inside, I may lose my mind.

flyingdutchdevil
11-05-2014, 09:16 AM
And again, I understand that this was an exhibition, it was a blowout, and coach K even said that he was going to use the first half to look at what everyone can do. But I mean if we average 30 threes over the course of the season when we have a talent like Oak inside, I may lose my mind.

I understand your concern, but this was a game to see how the team gelled and not to see who took the shots. From what I saw, the Oak was very content out there; he wasn't demanding the ball every possession.

Plus, I think taking that many shots is a great sign for our 3pt shooting Many posters are concerned about our ability to hit the 3. I'm not saying that this game should quell those fears, but we have 2 proven 3pt shooters (Quinn and Sulaimon), 2 reputable 3pt shooters with a year of nerves under their belt (M Jones and Semi), and 2 freshman who are competent shooters when open (Winslow and Grayson). I really liked what I saw.

The Oak will get his; Coach K, Tyus, and Quinn will make 100% sure of that.

Monmouth77
11-05-2014, 09:25 AM
Not trying to be a downer but want to ask seriously: what do you guys think about the number of threes we took? A box score that I saw showed that we took 32 out of 64 field goal attempts (of which we made 15). I know they were mostly open shots, but this is probably the smallest and worst opponent we'll face all year so I was hoping to see us pound it inside. If Okafor is getting 7 shots against an overmatched front court then that does not bode well for us getting away from relying on the three.

And again, I understand that this was an exhibition, it was a blowout, and coach K even said that he was going to use the first half to look at what everyone can do. But I mean if we average 30 threes over the course of the season when we have a talent like Oak inside, I may lose my mind.

We shot threes because that is what the defense was giving us- and we had absolutely wide open looks. I actually found it really encouraging that we made so many of those open looks. Granted, our guys will be much better defended by quality opponents when the real season starts, but our shot selection shows (1) that our guys made good decisions to get ball in the hands of wide open teammates; and (2) that several guys, including Winslow and M. Jones, whose 3-PT shooting could be important to the team, have the confidence to take and make that shot when it's open.

From a fan's perspective, I was disappointed not to see more of the offense run through the post, because I am so eager to see Jahlil operate down there, and I feel like I still don't have a feel for what he will be able to do against good competition. We did make some sloppy entry passes to the post and Jahlil bobbled the ball a few times under pressure. But we did not ignore the post or run the offense to "hunt threes." We played within the flow of the game, and used the opponent's double teams and zone looks to our advantage by hitting open shots.

BTW agree with others that Winslow looks like a complete player. I have heard him compared to Ron Artest (not emotionally, but physically and talent wise) and I would say that comp looks like something to hope for and aim for with him. He is legit.

mo.st.dukie
11-05-2014, 09:26 AM
Not trying to be a downer but want to ask seriously: what do you guys think about the number of threes we took? A box score that I saw showed that we took 32 out of 64 field goal attempts (of which we made 15). I know they were mostly open shots, but this is probably the smallest and worst opponent we'll face all year so I was hoping to see us pound it inside. If Okafor is getting 7 shots against an overmatched front court then that does not bode well for us getting away from relying on the three.

And again, I understand that this was an exhibition, it was a blowout, and coach K even said that he was going to use the first half to look at what everyone can do. But I mean if we average 30 threes over the course of the season when we have a talent like Oak inside, I may lose my mind.

There was a lot of zone play by Livingstone. They threw out all sorts of defenses, 2-3, 1-3-1, 2-2-1, etc (Coach K talks about there changing defenses in his post game presser). Obviously this is a good strategy for them because there's no way they can matchup man for man with Duke. There were a bunch of open looks from 3. Yes, there are plenty of ways to get the ball inside against a zone but for a first game with a lot of young players I guess we can't expect them to break zones with ease and efficiency. I think it's a good sign that we hit as many as we did considering the off season worry about our shooting. Duke has to be a capable three point shooting team so opponents can't just load up on Okafor inside and double/triple team him.

flyingdutchdevil
11-05-2014, 09:29 AM
BTW agree with others that Winslow looks like a complete player. I have heard him compared to Ron Artest (not emotionally, but physically and talent wise) and I would say that comp looks like something to hope for and aim for with him. He is legit.

Who is this Ron Artest you are referring to? Do you mean The Pandas Friend? http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/post/_/id/58196/metta-changing-name-to-the-pandas-friend

devildeac
11-05-2014, 09:57 AM
Not trying to be a downer but want to ask seriously: what do you guys think about the number of threes we took? A box score that I saw showed that we took 32 out of 64 field goal attempts (of which we made 15). I know they were mostly open shots, but this is probably the smallest and worst opponent we'll face all year so I was hoping to see us pound it inside. If Okafor is getting 7 shots against an overmatched front court then that does not bode well for us getting away from relying on the three.

And again, I understand that this was an exhibition, it was a blowout, and coach K even said that he was going to use the first half to look at what everyone can do. But I mean if we average 30 threes over the course of the season when we have a talent like Oak inside, I may lose my mind.

Good question. I think it was a lot of 3s but I'm not sure I remember one that I really could fault. I was happy with our performance last evening, especially first half with our unselfish play (huge # of assists; good ball movement; looking for the open guy), 3/4 to full court pressure D, running the court, PG play from both Quinn and Tyus, rebounding, energy and cohesiveness. Big Jah looked very comfortable, Matt has improved quite nicely and Justise is better than expected/advertised (though K has already said something to this effect-guess I should have believed him more:o). The second half looked a bit more like a pick-up/playground game (Livingstone did score 44-tee up the bad defense thread:p) but was exciting for the crowd with a few rim-rattling dunks. I think it'll be tough to keep Grayson and Semi off the court, but who are they gonna take minutes from when the foes get better? I'll guess MP3 sees the most of the minutes that Okafor doesn't due to fatigue/fouls but probably less than 10/game as I think he'll still have some foul issues himself.

flyingdutchdevil
11-05-2014, 10:01 AM
Good question. I think it was a lot of 3s but I'm not sure I remember one that I really could fault. I was happy with our performance last evening, especially first half with our unselfish play (huge # of assists; good ball movement; looking for the open guy), 3/4 to full court pressure D, running the court, PG play from both Quinn and Tyus, rebounding, energy and cohesiveness. Big Jah looked very comfortable, Matt has improved quite nicely and Justise is better than expected/advertised (though K has already said something to this effect-guess I should have believed him more:o). The second half looked a bit more like a pick-up/playground game (Livingstone did score 44-tee up the bad defense thread:p) but was exciting for the crowd with a few rim-rattling dunks. I think it'll be tough to keep Grayson and Semi off the court, but who are they gonna take minutes from when the foes get better? I'll guess MP3 sees the most of the minutes that Okafor doesn't due to fatigue/fouls but probably less than 10/game as I think he'll still have some foul issues himself.

Yeah - I didn't see any indication that Coach K plans on playing Amile at the 5, although I could be wrong. I see MP3 playing more than 10 minutes, and not because MP3 needs those minutes. Rather, I suspect that the Oak's biggest obstacle is going to be foul trouble, both on the defensive end (he's a freshman) and on the offensive end (he likes powering through opponents). The Oak will get as many minutes as his foul situation allows him. I see a 25/15 split, simply because of the foul trouble.

Des Esseintes
11-05-2014, 10:09 AM
There was a lot of zone play by Livingstone. They threw out all sorts of defenses, 2-3, 1-3-1, 2-2-1, etc (Coach K talks about there changing defenses in his post game presser). Obviously this is a good strategy for them because there's no way they can matchup man for man with Duke. There were a bunch of open looks from 3. Yes, there are plenty of ways to get the ball inside against a zone but for a first game with a lot of young players I guess we can't expect them to break zones with ease and efficiency. I think it's a good sign that we hit as many as we did considering the off season worry about our shooting. Duke has to be a capable three point shooting team so opponents can't just load up on Okafor inside and double/triple team him.
Plus, shooting threes is good. It's really, really good. Fan feeling has not kept up with the evolution in how professionals understand the game. At both college and NBA levels, threes are at an all-time level, and that's not because coaches and players have gotten stupid. K was one of the first major coaches to comprehend the power of 3>2, and he has gone on to enjoy an unparalleled career. It never ceases to amaze me that his own fanbase worries that we take too many threes when they've been an essential element of our success. Further, what do people think Okafor is going to *do* this year, exactly? Is he going to take 30 shots a game? I suspect he will not. I suspect he will take 10-15 shots a game most nights. That leaves a lot of shots for everyone else. It would be fantastic if a ton of those turn out to be threes. Threes and shots at the rim; eschew long twos. Anyone who wants something else is living in Byron Scott's fantasyland, and they play ugly, low-scoring basketball in Byron Scott's fantasyland.

MCFinARL
11-05-2014, 10:09 AM
Gonna have to rewatch the game as my Blue Devil Network stream buffering was more questionable than a UNC AFAM class.


Yes--does anybody have any tips to avoid this problem? I have a moderately fast FIOS internet connection (not the super high test though), and I closed everything else and had no other devices running, but I still got so much buffering that I gave up and will have to try to watch on replay. Does it matter what browser I use? Is there anything else people have figured out to fix this?



The most underrated player was our very own Quinn. Not only did his shot fall, but his leadership was exceptional. The freshman absolutely love Quinn. Every time the clock stopped and Quinn was on the floor, he gathered everyone together. Quinn Cook - when we're playing well - looks like a great captain. We need to see our leaders when we're not playing well.

Very glad to hear this--noted in the box score that he and Tyus had the most minutes in what was otherwise a pretty balanced distribution of PT. If the frosh are responding well to him now, that should help him be/become that important leader when we are not playing well also. I am a big Quinn fan and would love to see him be a great senior leader.


Who is this Ron Artest you are referring to? Do you mean The Pandas Friend? http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/post/_/id/58196/metta-changing-name-to-the-pandas-friend

Yowzah. That is one weird dude. But you gotta love a guy who thanks his psychiatrist (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRkLp3ixrzQ) immediately after winning an NBA championship.

UrinalCake
11-05-2014, 10:11 AM
Thanks for all the responses. I think opponents are going to zone us a lot this year, and of course Oak will see a lot of double teams. So a big question in my mind is whether we will resort to shooting a lot of threes as a result, or if we will find other ways to score. As we saw against Mercer, you can hit a high percentage of your threes and still lose if you're not getting anything inside. I'm fine with taking threes if they are your best option, as was the case last year, but this season I'm expecting us to play more inside-out and generate high-percentage shots inside.

Great to see such a balanced attack. Coach K has a tough job trying to distribute minutes among so many great players, which is a nice problem to have.

flyingdutchdevil
11-05-2014, 10:13 AM
Very glad to hear this--noted in the box score that he and Tyus had the most minutes in what was otherwise a pretty balanced distribution of PT. If the frosh are responding well to him now, that should help him be/become that important leader when we are not playing well also. I am a big Quinn fan and would love to see him be a great senior leader.

Me too. Quinn was often the whipping boy on last year's team. At times, it was warranted (hero ball) but most of the time it wasn't (his defense, which was no where near as bad of some player(s) last year, his (in)ability to pass, which I think is very solid, and his turnovers, which again I think he does a great job of taking care of the ball).

I am looking forward to seeing a Quinn who effectively channels the energy and passion he has for the game.

tux
11-05-2014, 10:15 AM
Okafor, Tyus Jones, and Winslow are our three best players. They can put the most pressure on the opposing defense -- and I think much more than last year's team could manage. I think the pieces just fit together better this year than last -- where Jabari, Hood, and Sheed were at times all trying to play the same role.

It's hard to say if one of the three is the key, but if I had to make a pick, I'd say it's Tyus. The ball movement just improves by leaps and bounds with him running the offense.

Also: I know it's just an exhibition, but I didn't love the Tyus/Quinn combo. Maybe that will improve with time.

flyingdutchdevil
11-05-2014, 10:15 AM
Thanks for all the responses. I think opponents are going to zone us a lot this year, and of course Oak will see a lot of double teams. So a big question in my mind is whether we will resort to shooting a lot of threes as a result, or if we will find other ways to score. As we saw against Mercer, you can hit a high percentage of your threes and still lose if you're not getting anything inside. I'm fine with taking threes if they are your best option, as was the case last year, but this season I'm expecting us to play more inside-out and generate high-percentage shots inside.

Great to see such a balanced attack. Coach K has a tough job trying to distribute minutes among so many great players, which is a nice problem to have.

I think our Mercer offensive strategy was pretty sound. Our defensive strategy and execution was...um....yeah. Winslow, M Jones, Sulaimon, and Okafor should really help with that side of the ball. Obviously, the opponent last night wasn't very good, but I really liked what I saw for defense for early November.

COYS
11-05-2014, 10:16 AM
Plus, shooting threes is good. It's really, really good. Fan feeling has not kept up with the evolution in how professionals understand the game. At both college and NBA levels, threes are at an all-time level, and that's not because coaches and players have gotten stupid. K was one of the first major coaches to comprehend the power of 3>2, and he has gone on to enjoy an unparalleled career. It never ceases to amaze me that his own fanbase worries that we take too many threes when they've been an essential element of our success. Further, what do people think Okafor is going to *do* this year, exactly? Is he going to take 30 shots a game? I suspect he will not. I suspect he will take 10-15 shots a game most nights. That leaves a lot of shots for everyone else. It would be fantastic if a ton of those turn out to be threes. Threes and shots at the rim; eschew long twos. Anyone who wants something else is living in Byron Scott's fantasyland, and they play ugly, low-scoring basketball in Byron Scott's fantasyland.

I second this post. I'd also like to add that anyone who is worried from the box score that we were just chucking up threes should also keep in mind that we had 25 assists. Virtually every three came off of excellent ball-movement. Actually, our offensive spacing was pretty much superb. We frequently drove and kicked or quickly reversed the ball for a three. We even had some nice 2010-esque offensive rebounds that led to open threes. There must have been 5-7 individual moments when one of our guys passed on a good three point look so that his teammate could get an even better look. The number of wide-open threes we had pretty much equals the number of threes we took. I think it was Grayson who had a questionable one from about 5 feet behind the line at one point in the second half . . . but he buried it, so I guess I can't fault him for it.

Des Esseintes
11-05-2014, 10:18 AM
Thanks for all the responses. I think opponents are going to zone us a lot this year, and of course Oak will see a lot of double teams. So a big question in my mind is whether we will resort to shooting a lot of threes as a result, or if we will find other ways to score. As we saw against Mercer, you can hit a high percentage of your threes and still lose if you're not getting anything inside. I'm fine with taking threes if they are your best option, as was the case last year, but this season I'm expecting us to play more inside-out and generate high-percentage shots inside.

Great to see such a balanced attack. Coach K has a tough job trying to distribute minutes among so many great players, which is a nice problem to have.
If Duke had shot less threes against Mercer, we would have scored fewer points in all likelihood. Want to actually win that game? Hold the opposition to something less than FIFTY-FIVE PERCENT FROM THE FIELD.

tux
11-05-2014, 10:24 AM
I second this post. I'd also like to add that anyone who is worried from the box score that we were just chucking up threes should also keep in mind that we had 25 assists. Virtually every three came off of excellent ball-movement. Actually, our offensive spacing was pretty much superb. We frequently drove and kicked or quickly reversed the ball for a three. We even had some nice 2010-esque offensive rebounds that led to open threes. There must have been 5-7 individual moments when one of our guys passed on a good three point look so that his teammate could get an even better look. The number of wide-open threes we had pretty much equals the number of threes we took. I think it was Grayson who had a questionable one from about 5 feet behind the line at one point in the second half . . . but he buried it, so I guess I can't fault him for it.


Yes. This year's team looks to be much more balanced in almost every way. In terms of both good offense and good defense, and in terms of being able to look inside and for open 3s. Our shooters, in coach K parlance, are "good to very good, but not great". The good news is that we have a lot of them, so hopefully someone will be hitting on any given night. A legitimate rim protector and some active rebounders will improve the defense from last year.

The Mercer loss was mostly an inability to make stops at crucial times...

flyingdutchdevil
11-05-2014, 10:26 AM
The Mercer loss was mostly an inability to make stops at crucial times...

You mean any time, not just crucial times.

tux
11-05-2014, 10:35 AM
You mean any time, not just crucial times.

Yes. They ran a nice offense and we spent the whole time chasing them around. Let's quit talking about Mercer... more fun to talk about the future.

I'd take our starting 4 + 1 (with the 1 being either Matt or Sheed) over any starting five in the country. How's that for optimism?

Newton_14
11-05-2014, 10:43 AM
Not trying to be a downer but want to ask seriously: what do you guys think about the number of threes we took? A box score that I saw showed that we took 32 out of 64 field goal attempts (of which we made 15). I know they were mostly open shots, but this is probably the smallest and worst opponent we'll face all year so I was hoping to see us pound it inside. If Okafor is getting 7 shots against an overmatched front court then that does not bode well for us getting away from relying on the three.

And again, I understand that this was an exhibition, it was a blowout, and coach K even said that he was going to use the first half to look at what everyone can do. But I mean if we average 30 threes over the course of the season when we have a talent like Oak inside, I may lose my mind.

SO fair question and assessment honestly but I do think that number will come down once the competition stiffens. It was a bit of a mirage. They were hitting at such at high percentage and Livingstone was focusing on Jahlil so our guys kept taking the open looks.

Jahlil will get far more touches each night, but last night was encouraging. We showed we have enough good shooters that if they get quality open looks, good things will happen and that in turn will help open things up inside for Jahlil.

Ggallagher
11-05-2014, 10:48 AM
Yes--does anybody have any tips to avoid this problem? I have a moderately fast FIOS internet connection (not the super high test though), and I closed everything else and had no other devices running, but I still got so much buffering that I gave up and will have to try to watch on replay. Does it matter what browser I use? Is there anything else people have figured out to fix this?




I'm not sure you can lay this on BDN. I watched their streaming feed, and was actually sort of startled by the very high video quality, and I don't recall noticing even a single buffering problem. We have the same copper based DSL service we signed up when we bought our house twenty years ago.

I'd have to guess there's something going on closer to your end.

flyingdutchdevil
11-05-2014, 10:48 AM
SO fair question and assessment honestly but I do think that number will come down once the competition stiffens. It was a bit of a mirage. They were hitting at such at high percentage and Livingstone was focusing on Jahlil so our guys kept taking the open looks.

Jahlil will get far more touches each night, but last night was encouraging. We showed we have enough good shooters that if they get quality open looks, good things will happen and that in turn will help open things up inside for Jahlil.

This is crucial. We probably don't have a Rodney Hood (42%) or a JJ Redick (41%) at the 3, but we have plenty of Nolan Smiths (37%) at the 3. And that will absolutely open up Jahlil. Also, Amile is such a wild card on offense that I have no idea what do expect. Like what I saw defensively, but offensively, he could score 4ppg or he could score 12ppg; neither would surprise me.

COYS
11-05-2014, 10:48 AM
A lot of great stuff has already been said, but I'd like to add a few other things.

Did anyone else notice that the defense looked MUCH better whenever Amile was on the floor? When the first team was in before the first line-change, Livingstone looked like they might not score more than 20 points for the entire game. Amile was super quick on his rotations, did a great job icing/hedging on screens (I saw him hedge and recover once), and was disruptive with his ball denial. I also think that pushing Justise to the three gave us a HUGE length advantage. While that advantage is amplified against a DII team, most teams won't be able to match up with Justise at the three particularly well. Having Amile anchor the defense was a big part of why Justise looked so good on that end of the court.

At the start of the second half when Quinn/Matt, Tyus, Rasheed/Grayson, and Justise/Semi surrounded Jahlil, our defense didn't look as good. Amile didn't play much more in the second half, but when he was in, if I recall correctly, the defense quickly snapped back into shape. I was impressed with how well Grayson played, how improved Semi looked, and how well Quinn and Tyus played together in the backcourt . . . BUT I'm not sure that any of those combinations are quite as effective without Amile on the floor. If the staff sticks with the rotation they used last night where one of Jahlil or Marshall was basically always on the floor, I will be forced to go back on my prediction that we'll see more Justise/Amile frontcourt looks than many thought. Instead, I think Amile will prove himself so effective on D that he'll get all the minutes he can handle at the 4, leaving the perimeter guys to duke it out (see what I did there? :)) over playing time at the 1-3 spots.

This leads me to my next observation, which is Rasheed. I love this guy. He's so talented. In fact, he almost certainly has the most raw talent of our guards when you think of his length, quickness, and solid shooting ability. But he really is going to be in a fight for playing time if Matt and Justise are able to deliver on the promise they've shown so far. Matt's strength and size makes him Rasheed's equal on the defensive end, and Matt's ability to score without needing the ball makes it much easier to integrate him into the offense around Jahlil. Meanwhile, as others have mentioned, Justise seems perfectly comfortable shooting threes and is also a threat to use his size, strength, and athleticism to slash to the hoop for some scores. Add in the fact that he's a matchup problem on both ends for the opposition due to his size and it's hard to see how he doesn't get tons and tons of minutes.

I'm not saying Rasheed is headed for the end of the bench. In fact, I really want to see what he would look like playing in place of Matt with the rest of the starting five. If he can spot up for shots like Matt, play tough defense, but also attack the defense off the bounce, he brings something to the lineup that I honestly think we need. But it is definitely going to take some work for Rasheed to find his footing with everyone else. I'm confident he can do it. It wasn't long ago that Rasheed was on the radar for NBA scouts. Tyus, Justise, Jahlil, and possibly even Amile will almost certainly play in the NBA (if Lance Thomas can do it, so can Amile!). Rasheed playing up to his potential gives us the possibility of putting five NBA players on the court at the same time. No doubt that makes us a better team.

Finally, I'd just like to point out that Justise had 4 assists to go with the rest of his stat-line. He's a calm ballhandler and appears to see the floor really well, too. I know, I know. Weak competition. Still, I'm optimistic that he can also be a playmaker for the team. Ryan Kelly's playmaking abilities really helped the 2013 team on offense. Having both Jon and Nolan as capable playmakers helped elevate the 2010 team. I'm hopeful that Justise can complement Quinn and Tyus as an alternative playmaker . . . especially if Rasheed struggles to adjust.

devildeac
11-05-2014, 10:59 AM
Yeah - I didn't see any indication that Coach K plans on playing Amile at the 5, although I could be wrong. I see MP3 playing more than 10 minutes, and not because MP3 needs those minutes. Rather, I suspect that the Oak's biggest obstacle is going to be foul trouble, both on the defensive end (he's a freshman) and on the offensive end (he likes powering through opponents). The Oak will get as many minutes as his foul situation allows him. I see a 25/15 split, simply because of the foul trouble.

Wait. Powering through opponents is a foul? (cues highlight reel of large, hated rival from Orange County with questionable major, happy feet and special talent of reading children's stories:rolleyes:)

GGLC
11-05-2014, 11:11 AM
Couldn't agree more with your thoughts on Amile, COYS.

Kedsy
11-05-2014, 11:58 AM
Marshall Plumlee shot 4 for 6 from the free throw line but got zero (0) defensive rebounds (3 offensive rebounds) in 19 minutes, against a team with nobody taller than 6'8"?

Hmm.

Tripping William
11-05-2014, 12:02 PM
Given the competition level, to me the most encouraging stat of the night was Duke's 32-of-40 from the line. Competition level may have a lot to do with the number of attempts, but would seem to have far, far, far less to do with making 80% of those.

arnie
11-05-2014, 12:11 PM
Marshall Plumlee shot 4 for 6 from the free throw line but got zero (0) defensive rebounds (3 offensive rebounds) in 19 minutes, against a team with nobody taller than 6'8"?

Hmm.

I watched him closely and it appeared he was playing a " decoy" role. Not in position for many bounds despite being the largest guy on court (by far) when in the game. Not sure what his role/emphasis was supposed to be last night?

BD80
11-05-2014, 12:28 PM
Wait. Powering through opponents is a foul? (cues highlight reel of large, hated rival from Orange County with questionable major, happy feet and special talent of reading children's stories:rolleyes:)

He earned a degree reading children's stories!

Probably did more reading than the rest of the team combined!


Given the competition level, to me the most encouraging stat of the night was Duke's 32-of-40 from the line. Competition level may have a lot to do with the number of attempts, but would seem to have far, far, far less to do with making 80% of those.

Other teams may defend the FT line more successfully.

As for shot distribution, does a foul negate a missed attempt? So the 40 free throws would greatly represent shot attempts not reflected in the field goal attempt stats, and typically 2 point attempts.

Duke_92
11-05-2014, 12:29 PM
Did anyone else notice that the defense looked MUCH better whenever Amile was on the floor? When the first team was in before the first line-change, Livingstone looked like they might not score more than 20 points for the entire game. Amile was super quick on his rotations, did a great job icing/hedging on screens (I saw him hedge and recover once), and was disruptive with his ball denial. I also think that pushing Justise to the three gave us a HUGE length advantage. While that advantage is amplified against a DII team, most teams won't be able to match up with Justise at the three particularly well. Having Amile anchor the defense was a big part of why Justise looked so good on that end of the court.




I'm sure this may have been mentioned in other places.....I heard Amile speak for a few minutes on 620 the Buzz this morning. Wow! This is kid is so bright and has such a great understanding of the game and of the strengths and weaknesses of his teammates. The radio hosts were very impressed with him, as was I. An articulate Duke basketball player is nothing new, but Amile takes it to a whole 'nother level. It was just great.

MCFinARL
11-05-2014, 12:47 PM
I'm not sure you can lay this on BDN. I watched their streaming feed, and was actually sort of startled by the very high video quality, and I don't recall noticing even a single buffering problem. We have the same copper based DSL service we signed up when we bought our house twenty years ago.

I'd have to guess there's something going on closer to your end.

Probably true. What interests me, though, is that there is never a buffering problem with the advertisements that show before the BDN material starts--they run just fine. Maybe Verizon is slowing me down when ads aren't running for reasons known only to itself (perhaps the desire to make me upgrade to even faster download speeds? I am already--allegedly--getting speeds well faster than DSL).





Other teams may defend the FT line more successfully.



FT line defense is a fine art, not mastered by everyone. Seriously, though, if a team is being run ragged, or perhaps getting bumped a lot, by a challenging opponent, it seems like the resulting exhaustion could affect free throw shooting pretty easily. Last night playing time was broadly distributed and the opponent was outmatched. So there might have been more energy to focus on making those free throws.

Henderson
11-05-2014, 12:52 PM
I watched him closely and it appeared he was playing a " decoy" role. Not in position for many bounds despite being the largest guy on court (by far) when in the game. Not sure what his role/emphasis was supposed to be last night?

I'm not a skilled enough viewer to judge his defensive positioning, but Marshall lost several rebounds that were within his grasp because he just couldn't squeeze them. I remember noticing that about MP1, MP2, and Zoubs early in their careers. But Marshall is no longer early in his career. It's not an uncommon problem for bigs, but it's frustrating to watch.

The goods:
*High energy guy; very active defensively last night.
*He hit his FTs.
*Livingstone didn't respect him offensively, and he made them pay a couple times when Livingstone failed to account for him defensively -- one a nice two-handed jam when Livingstone lost him on the baseline, and the other a nice alley-oop for a slam in a similar situation. No fumbling about on either. I don't think there were any screens to free him on either play. He's no Jahlil, but teams can't just ignore him on our offensive end. We have guys who can find him, and he likes to dunk the basketball.

On a micro level, I think his assumed roll is energy/enthusiasm, post defense, and rebounding. On a more macro level, he just needs to hold the fort for 10-15 minutes a game while Jahlil is taking a blow. I have limited expectations for him this year and look forward to being surprised from time to time. At this point, I'd say that foul trouble for Okafor would not be a good thing. But it's not an effort deficit; Marshall plays as hard as anyone. He just doesn't have a complete enough set of skills to match his energy and size. At this point...

jimsumner
11-05-2014, 12:53 PM
He earned a degree reading children's stories!

Probably did more reading than the rest of the team combined!



Other teams may defend the FT line more successfully.

As for shot distribution, does a foul negate a missed attempt? So the 40 free throws would greatly represent shot attempts not reflected in the field goal attempt stats, and typically 2 point attempts.

Yes, a foul negates a field-goal attempt statistically. Unless the field goal is made.

Jefferson is the defensive communicator in chief. I asked him last night if the kids were listening to him on D and he enthusiastically responded in the affirmative.

I'm not at all worried about Okafor. He only played 21 minutes and was fouled darn near every time he touched the ball. A lot of those fouls were before the bonus but they helped Duke get into the bonus early and they helped foul out Livingstone's starting center in only 16 minutes. Their back-up center had four fouls in 13 minutes.

Sulaimon? I think the burden is on him. There's no question a fully-engaged Sulaimon brings something valuable to the table. K said just a few weeks ago that Sulaimon was Duke's best on-the-ball defender. But he's a junior now and this will-he-show-up act is getting stale.

ChillinDuke
11-05-2014, 01:27 PM
Probably true. What interests me, though, is that there is never a buffering problem with the advertisements that show before the BDN material starts--they run just fine. Maybe Verizon is slowing me down when ads aren't running for reasons known only to itself (perhaps the desire to make me upgrade to even faster download speeds? I am already--allegedly--getting speeds well faster than DSL).



FT line defense is a fine art, not mastered by everyone. Seriously, though, if a team is being run ragged, or perhaps getting bumped a lot, by a challenging opponent, it seems like the resulting exhaustion could affect free throw shooting pretty easily. Last night playing time was broadly distributed and the opponent was outmatched. So there might have been more energy to focus on making those free throws.

MCF - for whatever it's worth (probably your upgrade costs), my FiOS ran deliciously smoothly in NYC. Although I was watching the replay, not live.

Trying to save you a few bucks here. :rolleyes:

- Chillin

Tripping William
11-05-2014, 01:34 PM
FT line defense is a fine art, not mastered by everyone. Seriously, though, if a team is being run ragged, or perhaps getting bumped a lot, by a challenging opponent, it seems like the resulting exhaustion could affect free throw shooting pretty easily. Last night playing time was broadly distributed and the opponent was outmatched. So there might have been more energy to focus on making those free throws.

Generally, whoever plays Clemson seems to master that fine art quite well. That said, you described exactly what I had in mind in qualifying my earlier post.

kAzE
11-05-2014, 01:34 PM
Well, it took long enough for everyone to get up to my level of man-crush for Justise Winslow.

The guy is a beast, and he does everything. His box score pretty sums up his versatility: 19 points, 7 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals, 0 turnovers. The knock on his game coming in to college is that he couldn't shoot from the perimeter, but I guess he shored up that weakness too: 3 for 5 from beyond the arc, people are gonna have to guard him out there. Been saying the guy is lock to be in the lottery, and top 5 wouldn't shock me at all. He's that good, guys.

I don't mean to sound all snooty, but people were ripping on me because I tried to compare him to Michael Kidd-Gilchrist. As crazy as it sounds, I think he could be even better than MKG. He's not as big or as good a rebounder, but he's just as physical, and has a lot more to his offensive game than MKG did. I continue to believe he will lead the team in minutes, and he's going to contribute across the board all year long. What a fantastic last minute signing for this recruiting class.

Billy Dat
11-05-2014, 01:39 PM
-I have been down on Winslow because I had no idea what kind of player he is. But I can now say that this man is going to be one of my favorite players. Holy Cow! Defense, rebounding, 3pt shooting, his handle, his wonderful hair... he had a great game. Coach K - please do not make Winslow get a haircut. I beg you.


He's rocking the Pauly D!
http://ionetheurbandaily.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/dj_pauly_d_spin_off_show.jpg

camion
11-05-2014, 01:42 PM
Well, it took long enough for everyone to get up to my level of man-crush for Justise Winslow.

The guy is a beast, and he does everything. His box score pretty sums up his versatility: 19 points, 7 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals, 0 turnovers. The knock on his game coming in to college is that he couldn't shoot from the perimeter, but I guess he shored up that weakness too: 3 for 5 from beyond the arc, people are gonna have to guard him out there. Been saying the guy is lock to be in the lottery, and top 5 wouldn't shock me at all. He's that good, guys.

I don't mean to sound all snooty, but people were ripping on me because I tried to compare him to Michael Kidd-Gilchrist. As crazy as it sounds, I think he could be even better than MKG. He's not as big or as good a rebounder, but he's just as physical, and has a lot more to his offensive game than MKG did. I continue to believe he will lead the team in minutes, and he's going to contribute across the board all year long. What a fantastic last minute signing for this recruiting class.

Bummer.

Not that he's that (NCAA) good, but that he's that (NBA) good.

53n206
11-05-2014, 01:43 PM
Where on goduke.com can I find the replay of the game? I am a subscriber to goduke, and I visited the site, but I cannot find the replay. Thanks.

roywhite
11-05-2014, 01:43 PM
Sulaimon? I think the burden is on him. There's no question a fully-engaged Sulaimon brings something valuable to the table. K said just a few weeks ago that Sulaimon was Duke's best on-the-ball defender. But he's a junior now and this will-he-show-up act is getting stale.

Reminds me some of Alaa Abdelnaby -- yeah, 25 years ago and different positions, etc. But Alaa too had a mercurial temperament, lost focus, and drove coaches nuts with his inconsistency; had all the tools, and could play great, but also could disappear, or sulk a bit. It took him until his senior year to become a really good, consistent player.

Henderson
11-05-2014, 01:58 PM
Where on goduke.com can I find the replay of the game? I am a subscriber to goduke, and I visited the site, but I cannot find the replay. Thanks.

Sign in then go to "Archived Game Rebroadcasts."

Ichabod Drain
11-05-2014, 02:11 PM
Well, it took long enough for everyone to get up to my level of man-crush for Justise Winslow.

The guy is a beast, and he does everything. His box score pretty sums up his versatility: 19 points, 7 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals, 0 turnovers. The knock on his game coming in to college is that he couldn't shoot from the perimeter, but I guess he shored up that weakness too: 3 for 5 from beyond the arc, people are gonna have to guard him out there. Been saying the guy is lock to be in the lottery, and top 5 wouldn't shock me at all. He's that good, guys.

I don't mean to sound all snooty, but people were ripping on me because I tried to compare him to Michael Kidd-Gilchrist. As crazy as it sounds, I think he could be even better than MKG. He's not as big or as good a rebounder, but he's just as physical, and has a lot more to his offensive game than MKG did. I continue to believe he will lead the team in minutes, and he's going to contribute across the board all year long. What a fantastic last minute signing for this recruiting class.

Winslow definitely looked willing and confident shooting the three last night but I'll give him a few more games to see if he truly will be a threat from deep this year.

flyingdutchdevil
11-05-2014, 02:30 PM
He's rocking the Pauly D!
http://ionetheurbandaily.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/dj_pauly_d_spin_off_show.jpg

Thanks Billy. You just ruined that hair cut for me for life. :Sad face:

CDu
11-05-2014, 02:39 PM
My thoughts:

I thought that Okafor, Winslow, and Jones all looked very good. Jones has tremendous court awareness and passing skills. His 11 assists were not an accident.

I disagree with those who were unimpressed with Okafor. I thought he showed tremendous dexterity and nimbleness on several occasions to make tough catches in traffic and still finish with the basket. And he didn't even have to dig too deep into his repertoire, which as we saw in CTC is quite extensive. He's going to be awesome. The one question I have with him is his foul shooting. That does not appear to be a strength. He's going to draw lots of fouls this year (which has its own inherent benefits even if he misses) so it will be nice for him to make a decent percentage. But that's a very minor gripe for such a terrific talent.

Winslow impressed me a great deal. There's very little that he doesn't do well. He can handle the ball, he's unselfish, he's incredibly strong, he can score from a variety of places, and he rebounds well. I'm not sold yet (small sample size alert) on his defense, as he made a few mistakes on that end. But all in all he looks great.

Jefferson and Ojeleye both seemed productive at PF. Both were aggressive on the boards and committed to their roles as screens and off-ball players. I expect Jefferson to get the lion's share of minutes at PF, but Ojeleye didn't look lost out there.

It is only two non-games so far, but Matt Jones appears to have found the range. He doesn't have the prettiest looking shot, but he has proven to be a dead-eye shooter in the two exhibitions we've had so far. Hopefully that continues. If it does, he's a perfect complement to Tyus Jones and Winslow on the perimeter.

I think the combo guard role is absolutely perfect for Cook. He can be a playmaker at times, but with Tyus Jones here he doesn't have the burden of running the offense all the time. He can definitely hunt his shot more often without compromising the team's continuity. I actually like the Tyus Jones/Cook backcourt a good deal because with the two of them we can push tempo and attack off the dribble much more easily. And Cook is a terrific shooter so we don't lose much with him as a catch-and-shoot guy.

Sulaimon had a really rough night. He had a problem last year figuring out what to do once he attacked off the dribble. It appears that he just lowers his head and doesn't do a good job of recognizing the defense. The result is a not-too-infrequent case of getting out of control off the dribble. On this team, that's a problem. And I don't think he's elite enough defensively to get away with it. So I do fear that he's again going to have his speed bumps as he tries to figure out his role on this team. I kind of feel like he should embrace the Matt Jones catch-and-shoot-and-play-defense role at this point. Tyus Jones and Cook can do enough of the ballhandling that we don't necessarily need Sulaimon to take it upon himself to attack off the dribble all the time.

Allen had some really nice moments. But I kind of feel like he's going to be the odd man out. Unless Coach K throws out his script and commits to the committee approach, there are just so many minutes available at the wing spots. And I don't think Allen is quite on the same level as Cook/M. Jones/Sulaimon/Winslow right now. He's not terribly far off, but he's a little behind. Unfortunately, being a little behind may mean very limited PT.

Plumlee looked like his usual self. Energetic, hustling all the time, trying really hard. But not very skilled. Still, most teams would kill for a backup C of his caliber. I don't think he'll see more than 10-12 mpg once we get to the real games, but I don't think he'll be a huge liability either. But on offense, when he's on the floor we will HAVE to have some scoring punch around him.

All in all, I really liked what I saw. We have several guys who are capable of handling the ball and creating off the dribble. We have several guys who could be decent-to-quite-good shooters. And with Tyus Jones and Okafor we have an elite playmaking PG and an elite post presence. If we can defend just a little it should be a very good year.

tux
11-05-2014, 02:49 PM
I kind of feel like he should embrace the Matt Jones catch-and-shoot-and-play-defense role at this point. Tyus Jones and Cook can do enough of the ballhandling that we don't necessarily need Sulaimon to take it upon himself to attack off the dribble all the time.

I was going to post this same thought re: Sulaimon. Especially when playing with Tyus, Winslow, and Okafor, if he would just play defense and concentrate on spotting up for open 3s, he's probably the most talented option at the off-guard spot.

Henderson
11-05-2014, 04:08 PM
My thoughts:

I thought that Okafor, Winslow, and Jones all looked very good. Jones has tremendous court awareness and passing skills. His 11 assists were not an accident.

I disagree with those who were unimpressed with Okafor. I thought he showed tremendous dexterity and nimbleness on several occasions to make tough catches in traffic and still finish with the basket. And he didn't even have to dig too deep into his repertoire, which as we saw in CTC is quite extensive. He's going to be awesome. The one question I have with him is his foul shooting. That does not appear to be a strength. He's going to draw lots of fouls this year (which has its own inherent benefits even if he misses) so it will be nice for him to make a decent percentage. But that's a very minor gripe for such a terrific talent.

Winslow impressed me a great deal. There's very little that he doesn't do well. He can handle the ball, he's unselfish, he's incredibly strong, he can score from a variety of places, and he rebounds well. I'm not sold yet (small sample size alert) on his defense, as he made a few mistakes on that end. But all in all he looks great.

Jefferson and Ojeleye both seemed productive at PF. Both were aggressive on the boards and committed to their roles as screens and off-ball players. I expect Jefferson to get the lion's share of minutes at PF, but Ojeleye didn't look lost out there.

It is only two non-games so far, but Matt Jones appears to have found the range. He doesn't have the prettiest looking shot, but he has proven to be a dead-eye shooter in the two exhibitions we've had so far. Hopefully that continues. If it does, he's a perfect complement to Tyus Jones and Winslow on the perimeter.

I think the combo guard role is absolutely perfect for Cook. He can be a playmaker at times, but with Tyus Jones here he doesn't have the burden of running the offense all the time. He can definitely hunt his shot more often without compromising the team's continuity. I actually like the Tyus Jones/Cook backcourt a good deal because with the two of them we can push tempo and attack off the dribble much more easily. And Cook is a terrific shooter so we don't lose much with him as a catch-and-shoot guy.

Sulaimon had a really rough night. He had a problem last year figuring out what to do once he attacked off the dribble. It appears that he just lowers his head and doesn't do a good job of recognizing the defense. The result is a not-too-infrequent case of getting out of control off the dribble. On this team, that's a problem. And I don't think he's elite enough defensively to get away with it. So I do fear that he's again going to have his speed bumps as he tries to figure out his role on this team. I kind of feel like he should embrace the Matt Jones catch-and-shoot-and-play-defense role at this point. Tyus Jones and Cook can do enough of the ballhandling that we don't necessarily need Sulaimon to take it upon himself to attack off the dribble all the time.

Allen had some really nice moments. But I kind of feel like he's going to be the odd man out. Unless Coach K throws out his script and commits to the committee approach, there are just so many minutes available at the wing spots. And I don't think Allen is quite on the same level as Cook/M. Jones/Sulaimon/Winslow right now. He's not terribly far off, but he's a little behind. Unfortunately, being a little behind may mean very limited PT.

Plumlee looked like his usual self. Energetic, hustling all the time, trying really hard. But not very skilled. Still, most teams would kill for a backup C of his caliber. I don't think he'll see more than 10-12 mpg once we get to the real games, but I don't think he'll be a huge liability either. But on offense, when he's on the floor we will HAVE to have some scoring punch around him.

All in all, I really liked what I saw. We have several guys who are capable of handling the ball and creating off the dribble. We have several guys who could be decent-to-quite-good shooters. And with Tyus Jones and Okafor we have an elite playmaking PG and an elite post presence. If we can defend just a little it should be a very good year.

Really good analysis. My neck got tired nodding in agreement. The one quibble I'll make is that I think you may be underestimating Allen. Due to the depth at his position, he may not see big minutes, but he'll see minutes. He's too good to sit. And he could come on faster than folks believe.

CDu
11-05-2014, 04:24 PM
Really good analysis. My neck got tired nodding in agreement. The one quibble I'll make is that I think you may be underestimating Allen. Due to the depth at his position, he may not see big minutes, but he'll see minutes. He's too good to sit. And he could come on faster than folks believe.

First, thanks for the kind words!

As for Allen, I don't mean to say he's not really good. He certainly fit in on the court last night for sure. He just has the misfortune of playing at our deepest position and for a coach not known for playing a deep bench. I do think he'll play some. I just don't think it will be much, especially not in competitive games (he should get reasonable run in blowouts).

Coming into the season I would have said that Allen's best path to PT was through outplaying Matt Jones. But it appears that Jones may be making a big jump this year, so that path seems less likely. It's just a minutes crunch. If we play the Joneses, Sulaimon, Cook, and Winslow an average of 25 mpg each (hardly outlandish averages for key regulars), that eats up all of the perimeter minutes (plus 5 PF minutes). So any minutes that Allen gets push one of the other 5 perimeter guys toward below 20mpg. It's just a numbers game that's working against whomever is 6th in the perimeter pecking order.

There may be games in which the mercurial Sulaimon gets benched. In those games I could see Allen getting 10-15 mpg. But when Sulaimon is firmly in the rotation, it's just hard to see Allen getting more than about 5 mpg. And if he does get substantial runs, that means one of our other guys is going to see a big dent in his minutes.

OldPhiKap
11-05-2014, 04:30 PM
I know it is one game and an exhibition opponent. but can anyone give me an idea of how well Okafor passes out of the double, and/or throw out and reposition? Those are going to be a things this year for him, I imagine, when we get to bigger and better competition.

Troublemaker
11-05-2014, 04:44 PM
I still haven't watched the game. Thanks to everyone for their recaps!

Had a thought. With 6 extremely talented perimeter players -- (is it out on a limb to say this is the best 1 thru 6 on the perimeter in Duke basketball history?) -- do we have a redshirt opportunity here? In Coach K's postseason press conference, he revealed regret for not redshirting Ryan Kelly in 2010 when he was the 5th big and couldn't get on the court due to Zoubs, Lance, Miles, and Mason being ahead of Ryan. This season's situation on the perimeter is somewhat similar right?

This is my thought and it might not be what you guys are thinking: redshirt Rasheed. This allows Quinn to lay total claim to the 6th man (and sometime starter) role which he would be well-equipped to fill. Grayson, being a talented freshman, would be perfect for the 5th perimeter player role where he could get 10-15 min a game. IMO - Matt, Quinn, and Sheed would all be overqualified for the 5th perimeter role.

For Sheed, this gives him one full year to work on nothing but his PG skills. If he's going to make it in the NBA, I agree now that it'll probably be as a PG. Tyus departs for the draft along with Justise and Jahlil after winning a national championship. Quinn graduates. Sheed becomes the starting point guard next season as a redshirt junior. If we miss out on both Smith Jr and Thornton in the 2016 recruiting class, Sheed can start at PG again as a redshirt senior.

What do you guys think? Crazy? Dumb?

Henderson
11-05-2014, 04:45 PM
First, thanks for the kind words!

As for Allen, I don't mean to say he's not really good. He certainly fit in on the court last night for sure. He just has the misfortune of playing at our deepest position and for a coach not known for playing a deep bench. I do think he'll play some. I just don't think it will be much, especially not in competitive games (he should get reasonable run in blowouts).

Coming into the season I would have said that Allen's best path to PT was through outplaying Matt Jones. But it appears that Jones may be making a big jump this year, so that path seems less likely. It's just a minutes crunch. If we play the Joneses, Sulaimon, Cook, and Winslow an average of 25 mpg each (hardly outlandish averages for key regulars), that eats up all of the perimeter minutes (plus 5 PF minutes). So any minutes that Allen gets push one of the other 5 perimeter guys toward below 20mpg. It's just a numbers game that's working against whomever is 6th in the perimeter pecking order.

There may be games in which the mercurial Sulaimon gets benched. In those games I could see Allen getting 10-15 mpg. But when Sulaimon is firmly in the rotation, it's just hard to see Allen getting more than about 5 mpg. And if he does get substantial runs, that means one of our other guys is going to see a big dent in his minutes.

I can't disagree with any of that. It's too early to know where the Sulaimon issue goes. I really would like him to shine and wouldn't want Allen to get minutes because Sulaimon isn't performing. This team is so much better with a high-functioning Sulaimon.

Regarding M. Jones: Matt Jones is more refined, with better defensive skills than Allen. But Allen has handle that M. Jones does not, and the guy seems a baller to me. He seems fearless, not shy about taking the open 3 or driving the baseline. And he's good at it. As good as M. Jones? The sample is too small for both of them at this point. I really liked M. Jones' play against Livingstone, both offensively and defensively. And if his excellent play means Allen gets limited minutes, that's a very good thing.

But Allen seems a self sure guy. Fortune favors the bold, and if a guy has skills too, I like the mixture.

Tripping William
11-05-2014, 04:56 PM
I can't disagree with any of that. It's too early to know where the Sulaimon issue goes. I really would like him to shine and wouldn't want Allen to get minutes because Sulaimon isn't performing. This team is so much better with a high-functioning Sulaimon.

Regarding M. Jones: Matt Jones is more refined, with better defensive skills than Allen. But Allen has handle that M. Jones does not, and the guy seems a baller to me. He seems fearless, not shy about taking the open 3 or driving the baseline. And he's good at it. As good as M. Jones? The sample is too small for both of them at this point. I really liked M. Jones' play against Livingstone, both offensively and defensively. And if his excellent play means Allen gets limited minutes, that's a very good thing.

But Allen seems a self sure guy. Fortune favors the bold, and if a guy has skills too, I like the mixture.

So, you're saying that Allen's challenge is to keep up with the Joneses? ;)

ncexnyc
11-05-2014, 04:59 PM
Well, it took long enough for everyone to get up to my level of man-crush for Justise Winslow.

The guy is a beast, and he does everything. His box score pretty sums up his versatility: 19 points, 7 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals, 0 turnovers. The knock on his game coming in to college is that he couldn't shoot from the perimeter, but I guess he shored up that weakness too: 3 for 5 from beyond the arc, people are gonna have to guard him out there. Been saying the guy is lock to be in the lottery, and top 5 wouldn't shock me at all. He's that good, guys.

I don't mean to sound all snooty, but people were ripping on me because I tried to compare him to Michael Kidd-Gilchrist. As crazy as it sounds, I think he could be even better than MKG. He's not as big or as good a rebounder, but he's just as physical, and has a lot more to his offensive game than MKG did. I continue to believe he will lead the team in minutes, and he's going to contribute across the board all year long. What a fantastic last minute signing for this recruiting class.

LOL, not everyone, I was extremely high on this kid. Watching him play in those All-Star games I knew we had an excellent player, especially when at the end of those games they matched him up against the oppositions PG.

I think what surprises me the most is that he isn't going to embarass himself on the offensive end of the court. Some people have mentioned Singler's name when discussing this kid, but I'm more inclined to believe he could possibly develop along the lines of Battier.

Shane's first season was one where he was thought of primarily as a defensive stud and rebounder, however he developed into an excellent offensive player as his time at Duke progressed and as the focus shifted to him being a leader on the team.

kAzE
11-05-2014, 05:04 PM
LOL, not everyone, I was extremely high on this kid. Watching him play in those All-Star games I knew we had an excellent player, especially when at the end of those games they matched him up against the oppositions PG.

I think what surprises me the most is that he isn't going to embarass himself on the offensive end of the court. Some people have mentioned Singler's name when discussing this kid, but I'm more inclined to believe he could possibly develop along the lines of Battier.

Shane's first season was one where he was thought of primarily as a defensive stud and rebounder, however he developed into an excellent offensive player as his time at Duke progressed and as the focus shifted to him being a leader on the team.

We knew he was going to get rebounds and be a good defensive player, but I think people are sleeping on Winslow's playmaking ability. He's an underrated ball handler and (willing) passer. 4 assists and 0 turnovers ain't too bad for a small forward. Singler and Battier were never really known for that. I see him as more of a Grant Hill type of player. Less talented and less athletic than Grant, but similarly skilled offensively with the length and motor to get it done on defense and on the glass.

flyingdutchdevil
11-05-2014, 05:12 PM
I know it is one game and an exhibition opponent. but can anyone give me an idea of how well Okafor passes out of the double, and/or throw out and reposition? Those are going to be a things this year for him, I imagine, when we get to bigger and better competition.

In all honesty, Okafor didn't get enough touches to come to a conclusion. Okafor's passing was good and he definitely passed when in trouble (and I believe also turned it over once), but nothing substantial to make a solid conclusion.

flyingdutchdevil
11-05-2014, 05:17 PM
My thoughts:

I thought that Okafor, Winslow, and Jones all looked very good. Jones has tremendous court awareness and passing skills. His 11 assists were not an accident.

I disagree with those who were unimpressed with Okafor. I thought he showed tremendous dexterity and nimbleness on several occasions to make tough catches in traffic and still finish with the basket. And he didn't even have to dig too deep into his repertoire, which as we saw in CTC is quite extensive. He's going to be awesome. The one question I have with him is his foul shooting. That does not appear to be a strength. He's going to draw lots of fouls this year (which has its own inherent benefits even if he misses) so it will be nice for him to make a decent percentage. But that's a very minor gripe for such a terrific talent.

Winslow impressed me a great deal. There's very little that he doesn't do well. He can handle the ball, he's unselfish, he's incredibly strong, he can score from a variety of places, and he rebounds well. I'm not sold yet (small sample size alert) on his defense, as he made a few mistakes on that end. But all in all he looks great.

Jefferson and Ojeleye both seemed productive at PF. Both were aggressive on the boards and committed to their roles as screens and off-ball players. I expect Jefferson to get the lion's share of minutes at PF, but Ojeleye didn't look lost out there.

It is only two non-games so far, but Matt Jones appears to have found the range. He doesn't have the prettiest looking shot, but he has proven to be a dead-eye shooter in the two exhibitions we've had so far. Hopefully that continues. If it does, he's a perfect complement to Tyus Jones and Winslow on the perimeter.

I think the combo guard role is absolutely perfect for Cook. He can be a playmaker at times, but with Tyus Jones here he doesn't have the burden of running the offense all the time. He can definitely hunt his shot more often without compromising the team's continuity. I actually like the Tyus Jones/Cook backcourt a good deal because with the two of them we can push tempo and attack off the dribble much more easily. And Cook is a terrific shooter so we don't lose much with him as a catch-and-shoot guy.

Sulaimon had a really rough night. He had a problem last year figuring out what to do once he attacked off the dribble. It appears that he just lowers his head and doesn't do a good job of recognizing the defense. The result is a not-too-infrequent case of getting out of control off the dribble. On this team, that's a problem. And I don't think he's elite enough defensively to get away with it. So I do fear that he's again going to have his speed bumps as he tries to figure out his role on this team. I kind of feel like he should embrace the Matt Jones catch-and-shoot-and-play-defense role at this point. Tyus Jones and Cook can do enough of the ballhandling that we don't necessarily need Sulaimon to take it upon himself to attack off the dribble all the time.

Allen had some really nice moments. But I kind of feel like he's going to be the odd man out. Unless Coach K throws out his script and commits to the committee approach, there are just so many minutes available at the wing spots. And I don't think Allen is quite on the same level as Cook/M. Jones/Sulaimon/Winslow right now. He's not terribly far off, but he's a little behind. Unfortunately, being a little behind may mean very limited PT.

Plumlee looked like his usual self. Energetic, hustling all the time, trying really hard. But not very skilled. Still, most teams would kill for a backup C of his caliber. I don't think he'll see more than 10-12 mpg once we get to the real games, but I don't think he'll be a huge liability either. But on offense, when he's on the floor we will HAVE to have some scoring punch around him.

All in all, I really liked what I saw. We have several guys who are capable of handling the ball and creating off the dribble. We have several guys who could be decent-to-quite-good shooters. And with Tyus Jones and Okafor we have an elite playmaking PG and an elite post presence. If we can defend just a little it should be a very good year.

Nice analysis, CDu. Just a few of my thoughts that I disagree with:

1) Semi had a terrible first half and really good second half. He deferred a lot in the first half and looked lost at times. That really changed in the second half. I hope he can continue this in the future.
2) Sulaimon's problem is chemistry, which I didn't see much of out there. With the second unit, it was all about Rasheed, Rasheed, and Rasheed. With the first unit, he tried to do too much and got in trouble a few times. He needs to understand how to work with these new guys, which will take plenty of time. Like you mentioned, Cook already seems to have a strong understanding with Tyus. Cook has really matured, huh?

I have a feeling that Sulaimon's name is going to come up a lot in DBR. So much talent, so difficult to watch sometimes.

MCFinARL
11-05-2014, 05:46 PM
MCF - for whatever it's worth (probably your upgrade costs), my FiOS ran deliciously smoothly in NYC. Although I was watching the replay, not live.

Trying to save you a few bucks here. :rolleyes:

- Chillin

Thanks, Chillin--all contributions to my financial well being, whether advice or $, gratefully accepted. :D

jimsumner
11-05-2014, 05:54 PM
Duke only has 10 recruited players available so a redshirt would be very, very risky. K did redshirt Matt Christensen in 1999 when he was one of ten recruited players. But Christensen was coming off a two-year Mormon mission so he was pretty rusty.

Besides, it's a moot point now. The exhibition games do count and all ten recruited players played last night. So, a non-injury redshirt is off the table.

Kedsy
11-05-2014, 06:08 PM
Besides, it's a moot point now. The exhibition games do count and all ten recruited players played last night. So, a non-injury redshirt is off the table.

Didn't Alex Murphy get a redshirt after he played in the exhibitions? According to this box score (http://athletics.bellarmine.edu/custompages/Sports/MBB/2011-12/Duke%20Box%20Score.htm), he played against Bellarmine on October 29, 2011, and he redshirted for the 2011-12 season. Or was that an injury redshirt because he had a concussion?

Either way, I agree with Jim that Coach K probably wouldn't/won't be inclined to redshirt anybody this season, especially Rasheed.

tux
11-05-2014, 06:14 PM
Didn't Alex Murphy get a redshirt after he played in the exhibitions? According to this box score (http://athletics.bellarmine.edu/custompages/Sports/MBB/2011-12/Duke%20Box%20Score.htm), he played against Bellarmine on October 29, 2011, and he redshirted for the 2011-12 season. Or was that an injury redshirt because he had a concussion?

Either way, I agree with Jim that Coach K probably wouldn't/won't be inclined to redshirt anybody this season, especially Rasheed.


I agree. Red-shirting a junior Rasheed would probably backfire, despite being an intriguing idea from a developmental standpoint. I still think Rasheed is going to have a huge year. He's the X factor.

Des Esseintes
11-05-2014, 06:40 PM
I agree. Red-shirting a junior Rasheed would probably backfire, despite being an intriguing idea from a developmental standpoint. I still think Rasheed is going to have a huge year. He's the X factor.

It's also extremely hard to justify asking a player with major post-collegiate paying aims to redshirt. With all due respect to K, slapping a redshirt on Ryan would have been profoundly unfair. Ryan is an NBA player. He should have done FIVE years in college when he was ready for the Association after four? Every year of earning money is a year lost for an athlete. There would be tremendous criticism of K putting program above the athlete's well-being if he tried to redshirt Rasheed, and that criticism would be warranted.

Troublemaker
11-05-2014, 07:32 PM
Duke only has 10 recruited players available so a redshirt would be very, very risky.

Yeah, I agree. For this reason, I wouldn't do it either. Interestingly, though, the would-be Kelly redshirt year of '09-'10 would've also meant redshirting one of only ten recruited players (after the Czyz transfer).


I still think Rasheed is going to have a huge year.

Same here. Just to clarify, I think Sheed will excel in whatever role he's asked to perform this year, whether he's a starter, 6th man, or 7th man. I was just exploring possible alternatives / opportunity costs given such excellent perimeter depth this season.


It's also extremely hard to justify asking a player with major post-collegiate paying aims to redshirt. With all due respect to K, slapping a redshirt on Ryan would have been profoundly unfair. Ryan is an NBA player. He should have done FIVE years in college when he was ready for the Association after four? Every year of earning money is a year lost for an athlete. There would be tremendous criticism of K putting program above the athlete's well-being if he tried to redshirt Rasheed, and that criticism would be warranted.

Well, in either hypothetical redshirt scenario, I would expect Coach K to seek input and approval from both the player and his parents before doing anything. Also, the redshirt doesn't mean Ryan couldn't have left for the NBA after his redshirt junior year (and academic graduation) if that's what he desired. It would just give him the option of spending a 5th year at Duke if he wanted to at the cost of the limited amount of minutes he was able to play his freshman year. The cost/benefit for Sheed is a bit more complicated, but again, nothing to prevent him from leaving after his redshirt junior year under this hypothetical.

Newton_14
11-05-2014, 08:16 PM
Yeah, I agree. For this reason, I wouldn't do it either. Interestingly, though, the would-be Kelly redshirt year of '09-'10 would've also meant redshirting one of only ten recruited players (after the Czyz transfer).



Same here. Just to clarify, I think Sheed will excel in whatever role he's asked to perform this year, whether he's a starter, 6th man, or 7th man. I was just exploring possible alternatives / opportunity costs given such excellent perimeter depth this season.



Well, in either hypothetical redshirt scenario, I would expect Coach K to seek input and approval from both the player and his parents before doing anything. Also, the redshirt doesn't mean Ryan couldn't have left for the NBA after his redshirt junior year (and academic graduation) if that's what he desired. It would just give him the option of spending a 5th year at Duke if he wanted to at the cost of the limited amount of minutes he was able to play his freshman year. The cost/benefit for Sheed is a bit more complicated, but again, nothing to prevent him from leaving after his redshirt junior year under this hypothetical.

So I rewatched the game on BDN and to be fully honest, I am starting to need some of you guys to restrain me with my pure joy of how good this team is. Full disclosure, I whiffed so badly on last year's team I imposed a penalty on myself to go last in writing one of the Phase Posts this year. I was scared of whiffing again. But man, these guys are impressive thus far.

I was thinking about this earlier today. I think we have something special in the works. We have significantly upgraded our team in what my opinion are the 3 most important positions in College Basketball, those being Point Guard, Small Forward, and Center. If you asked me to re-rank the 4 Freshman today, I would say that all 3 of Jahlil, Justice, and Tyus are actually Top 5 RSCI type players and Grayson is a Top 15 RSCI player. In my opinion, only Jahlil was not underrated by the rankings.

Next important factor: The team defense comparative to last season after CTC and Drury is much improved. I mentioned it earlier but I wonder how many people remember that we actually trailed Drury at the half last year and never came close to opening a lead approaching the largest leave last night. Anybody think last year's Drury could even sniff a lead or stay within 30 of these Duke kids? I don't. Drury shredded our defense for an entire half last year. (the first sign of disaster looming and I talked myself out of it)

So we have the core 3, and now you plug the Jr version of Amile Jefferson back into his proper spot of PF. I think he is going to thrive in between Jahlil and Winslow. Those two will draw so much attention defensively Amile will find hole after hole and burn teams. We have the Soph version of Semi backing him up, and Winslow can also play the 4 which we can easily get away with. Take Tyus at the point, Jahlil at Center, Justise at Power Forward and you can plug in any 2 of Quinn/Matt/Rasheed/Grayson, and you still have 5 guys that can rock and roll offensively and defend.

Shooting Guard: This is the deepest team of Shooting Guards I have ever seen at Duke in all my years of watching, and 3 of them can also easily play Small Forward on offense and defense in Matt/Rasheed/Grayson.

Winslow- Everybody sees it now and I won't repeat his strengths but the guy is a bonafide stud. I actually like the Battier comparison except Winslow is a much better ball handler. Watching him snatch a defensive rebound and then push it up the floor himself on the fast break is a thing of beauty.

Lastly, I think Tyus and Grayson both are showing to be much better defensively than advertised. Tyus is bigger and stronger than he looks, has good positioning, moves his feet well, and has great hands defensively. So far his on ball pressure looks really good.

It's early of course and we will not know what we have for sure until we see them play a couple of games against a Top 5 opponent/Top 10 opponent. Based on the early results though, this team looks to be really really formidable.

I look forward to the competition stiffening and see how these guys respond, especially in a hostile road environment. If they are as good as I think they are/can become, the Wisconsin game should be really fun to watch.

mgtr
11-05-2014, 08:44 PM
So I rewatched the game on BDN and to be fully honest, I am starting to need some of you guys to restrain me with my pure joy of how good this team is. Full disclosure, I whiffed so badly on last year's team I imposed a penalty on myself to go last in writing one of the Phase Posts this year. I was scared of whiffing again. But man, these guys are impressive thus far.

I was thinking about this earlier today. I think we have something special in the works. We have significantly upgraded our team in what my opinion are the 3 most important positions in College Basketball, those being Point Guard, Small Forward, and Center. If you asked me to re-rank the 4 Freshman today, I would say that all 3 of Jahlil, Justice, and Tyus are actually Top 5 RSCI type players and Grayson is a Top 15 RSCI player. In my opinion, only Jahlil was not underrated by the rankings.

Next important factor: The team defense comparative to last season after CTC and Drury is much improved. I mentioned it earlier but I wonder how many people remember that we actually trailed Drury at the half last year and never came close to opening a lead approaching the largest leave last night. Anybody think last year's Drury could even sniff a lead or stay within 30 of these Duke kids? I don't. Drury shredded our defense for an entire half last year. (the first sign of disaster looming and I talked myself out of it)

So we have the core 3, and now you plug the Jr version of Amile Jefferson back into his proper spot of PF. I think he is going to thrive in between Jahlil and Winslow. Those two will draw so much attention defensively Amile will find hole after hole and burn teams. We have the Soph version of Semi backing him up, and Winslow can also play the 4 which we can easily get away with. Take Tyus at the point, Jahlil at Center, Justise at Power Forward and you can plug in any 2 of Quinn/Matt/Rasheed/Grayson, and you still have 5 guys that can rock and roll offensively and defend.

Shooting Guard: This is the deepest team of Shooting Guards I have ever seen at Duke in all my years of watching, and 3 of them can also easily play Small Forward on offense and defense in Matt/Rasheed/Grayson.

Winslow- Everybody sees it now and I won't repeat his strengths but the guy is a bonafide stud. I actually like the Battier comparison except Winslow is a much better ball handler. Watching him snatch a defensive rebound and then push it up the floor himself on the fast break is a thing of beauty.

Lastly, I think Tyus and Grayson both are showing to be much better defensively than advertised. Tyus is bigger and stronger than he looks, has good positioning, moves his feet well, and has great hands defensively. So far his on ball pressure looks really good.

It's early of course and we will not know what we have for sure until we see them play a couple of games against a Top 5 opponent/Top 10 opponent. Based on the early results though, this team looks to be really really formidable.

I look forward to the competition stiffening and see how these guys respond, especially in a hostile road environment. If they are as good as I think they are/can become, the Wisconsin game should be really fun to watch.

Agree pretty much down the line. The game convinced me how good Tyus is. So, with the 3 core players and 7 very good players to fill in/ back up, I think we will be an excellent team. And not just excellent in November, but also in March and April.

jimsumner
11-05-2014, 09:34 PM
As good as the freshmen appear to be, Duke hasn't had much recent March success with teams led by freshmen. Maybe these guys are made of sterner stuff. But I think the upperclassmen are key components to any long-term goals.

I love what Jefferson brings to the team. I still haven't seen any sign of a face-up 15-footer; it didn't come to similarly sized John Smith and Tony Lang until they were seniors. But he gets high marks in leadership, defense and rebounding. I think he can play off Okafor by flashing to the basket when the big guy is double-teamed. And he can crash the boards and run the floor. So, he'll get targets-of-opportunity baskets.

And he's back to playing his natural position.

Did I mention his leadership abilities? Not at the Battier level. But approaching the Ryan Kelly level. He's the defensive QB.

And Cook seems to be in a good place right now. He wears his heart on his sleeve and he's been positively beaming the times I've seen him this season. I hope that can withstand the inevitable adversity but he seems to have matured quite a bit. The kids seem to listen to him.

Plumlee? A back-up center, albeit a pretty good back-up center. I've neither seen nor heard anything to suggest that K intends to play Okafor and Plumlee together. Which means he only sees the floor when Okafor is sitting.

That leaves Sulaimon, a riddle wrapped inside a conundrum inside a mystery. So much talent, so little consistency. If he takes last-night's wake-up call to heart, he can bring so much to this team, defense, three-point shooting, another ball handler, an ability to run the floor and get to the rim, either in transition or in the half-court. Duke is very deep on the perimeter but I'm not convinced that anyone else on the team replicates his particular combination of assets. He just has to put it together. Consistently.

Wander
11-05-2014, 09:38 PM
As good as the freshmen appear to be, Duke hasn't had much recent March success with teams led by freshmen.

Those teams were horrible on defense. If this team can be good on both offense and defense, which we should know before March, then I wouldn't worry too much about what class the major players are in.

Newton_14
11-05-2014, 09:50 PM
As good as the freshmen appear to be, Duke hasn't had much recent March success with teams led by freshmen. Maybe these guys are made of sterner stuff. But I think the upperclassmen are key components to any long-term goals.

I love what Jefferson brings to the team. I still haven't seen any sign of a face-up 15-footer; it didn't come to similarly sized John Smith and Tony Lang until they were seniors. But he gets high marks in leadership, defense and rebounding. I think he can play off Okafor by flashing to the basket when the big guy is double-teamed. And he can crash the boards and run the floor. So, he'll get targets-of-opportunity baskets.

And he's back to playing his natural position.

Did I mention his leadership abilities? Not at the Battier level. But approaching the Ryan Kelly level. He's the defensive QB.

And Cook seems to be in a good place right now. He wears his heart on his sleeve and he's been positively beaming the times I've seen him this season. I hope that can withstand the inevitable adversity but he seems to have matured quite a bit. The kids seem to listen to him.

Plumlee? A back-up center, albeit a pretty good back-up center. I've neither seen nor heard anything to suggest that K intends to play Okafor and Plumlee together. Which means he only sees the floor when Okafor is sitting.

That leaves Sulaimon, a riddle wrapped inside a conundrum inside a mystery. So much talent, so little consistency. If he takes last-night's wake-up call to heart, he can bring so much to this team, defense, three-point shooting, another ball handler, an ability to run the floor and get to the rim, either in transition or in the half-court. Duke is very deep on the perimeter but I'm not convinced that anyone else on the team replicates his particular combination of assets. He just has to put it together. Consistently.

Totally agree Jim and in my giddiness with the freshman I did not intend to poo poo the upperclassmen but looking back, I think I did even if unintentional. I agree word for word with everything you write here. Amile is absolutely a great leader, especially on the defensive end (and may be the reason Jahlil does not pull down 10 boards a game). Leadership and communication should not be left out of the equation as necessities for post season and even regular season success. Amile fills a big void from last year in the categories of leadership especially, but also communication. We sorely missed that element last year and I think that is one the key reasons this team will be better defensively.

I think Quinn will thrive in his new role, and MP3 will finally look like he belongs when he is out there on the floor. He is a great backup center for this team and will surely be needed in tough spots when Jahlil is either in foul trouble or needs rest.

I am the biggest fan there is of Rasheed but he is so frustrating. Last night was painful. The offense looked so fluid except when he caught the ball. It reminded me of the bad Austin Rivers. Stop, think, dribble, call for a screen, dribble, drive to the teeth of the defense, head down, bad result. I can't help but think that the compliment K keeps tossing out in the media regarding Matt's "not needing the ball to score" is a sublimal message of sorts directed squarely at Rasheed.

It is just taking him too long to 1 decide what to do and 2 then trying to do whatever it is he thinks he wants/needs to do... So much talent there on both sides of the ball. He can be so darn good. Stop thinking young man, read the defense BEFORE you catch the ball!! Then it becomes an immediate shot, drive, or pass. Immediate. If he can figure out how to read the defense before catching the ball and then make 1 of those 3 decisions immediately, his game will flourish. 4th thing is driving with his head up looking for teammates in case he cant get the shot he wants.

These are dangerous times for Rasheed though due to having so many talented and capable kids that can slide right in at the 2G. I fully agree he is the most talented of the 4 guys and there is no logical reason he is not locked in as the starter at SG pulling down 28-32 minutes every night.

The ball is in his court so to speak... what say ye young man? Embrace and thrive? We all hope so!

roywhite
11-05-2014, 10:40 PM
So I rewatched the game on BDN and to be fully honest, I am starting to need some of you guys to restrain me with my pure joy of how good this team is. Full disclosure, I whiffed so badly on last year's team I imposed a penalty on myself to go last in writing one of the Phase Posts this year. I was scared of whiffing again. But man, these guys are impressive thus far.

I was thinking about this earlier today. I think we have something special in the works. We have significantly upgraded our team in what my opinion are the 3 most important positions in College Basketball, those being Point Guard, Small Forward, and Center. If you asked me to re-rank the 4 Freshman today, I would say that all 3 of Jahlil, Justice, and Tyus are actually Top 5 RSCI type players and Grayson is a Top 15 RSCI player. In my opinion, only Jahlil was not underrated by the rankings.




As good as the freshmen appear to be, Duke hasn't had much recent March success with teams led by freshmen. Maybe these guys are made of sterner stuff. But I think the upperclassmen are key components to any long-term goals.





Those teams were horrible on defense. If this team can be good on both offense and defense, which we should know before March, then I wouldn't worry too much about what class the major players are in.


Totally agree Jim and in my giddiness with the freshman I did not intend to poo poo the upperclassmen but looking back, I think I did even if unintentional. I agree word for word with everything you write here. Amile is absolutely a great leader, especially on the defensive end (and may be the reason Jahlil does not pull down 10 boards a game). Leadership and communication should not be left out of the equation as necessities for post season and even regular season success. Amile fills a big void from last year in the categories of leadership especially, but also communication. We sorely missed that element last year and I think that is one the key reasons this team will be better defensively.



Interestingly enough, I think the model for this team could be the 2011-12 Kentucky team, which integrated some super freshmen with other talented returning players and won the NCAA Championship.

That Kentucky team lost Brandon Knight and two others to the NBA draft after the 2011 season, and brought in C Anthony Davis, SF Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, PG Marcus Teague, and also PF Kyle Wiltjer. They joined returnees Darius Miller, Terrence Jones, Doron Lamb, and others. The freshmen were outstanding; the team managed to blend together well; they played outstanding defense, and shared the ball on offense. Davis was an outstanding defender and shot blocker obviously, but this Duke freshmen class overall could be the equal of that Wildcat class.

We'll see; have to put it all together, but I was struck by the similarities of this roster with that UK championship team.

Kedsy
11-05-2014, 11:17 PM
I watched [Marshall Plumlee] closely and it appeared he was playing a " decoy" role.

That would be on offense, though, right? How could Marshall not get any defensive rebounds in this game?

NSDukeFan
11-06-2014, 04:58 AM
How was Jahlil at setting screens? I assume that is mostly what he will be doing this year, so the guards can jack up threes. (;

I didn't see the game, so I appreciate all the comments and excitement about this year's team. I am looking forward to seeing them play.

roywhite
11-06-2014, 07:48 AM
Top Plays: Duke 115 Livingstone 58 (Ex.) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpmmnYxC-34&feature=youtu.be)

From DukeBluePlanet, with Jahlil and Tyus providing commentary.

AncientPsychicT
11-06-2014, 08:25 AM
How was Jahlil at setting screens? I assume that is mostly what he will be doing this year, so the guards can jack up threes. (;

I didn't see the game, so I appreciate all the comments and excitement about this year's team. I am looking forward to seeing them play.

At one point, Jahlil not only screened the defender, he also screened the ballhandler (Rasheed). Livingstone picked up the ball and scored a transition basket. I thought it was hilarious. :D

elvis14
11-06-2014, 08:57 AM
At one point, Jahlil not only screened the defender, he also screened the ballhandler (Rasheed). Livingstone picked up the ball and scored a transition basket. I thought it was hilarious. :D

Coach K thought it was so funny that he had Sheed sit with him on the bench for the rest of the game. That way if Sheed did anything else humorous, coach wouldn't miss it :D

On a more serious note. I didn't get to see the game (would rent it from goduke but haven't had the time to watch it anyway). I just wanted to say thanks for all the posts about the game. At this point in the season, they are pure gold.

Henderson
11-06-2014, 11:00 AM
I'd like to see K start Rasheed on Saturday and play him a lot of minutes, good or bad. Lift him up when he's feeling down, show confidence in him, and give him a chance to show himself, his team mates, and the coaching staff what he can do.

Exhibition games are a time for working on some things. And spending some capital on Rasheed Sulaimon seems like a worthwhile investment to me. This team will be good anyway, but a high-functioning Sulaimon would be huge asset to the team. I hope the coaching staff is making an effort to make that happens, rather than just relying on 'Sheed to get his act together. He's still only 20 years old, and to put the onus exclusively on him to prove himself would be to abdicate a critical coaching role.

In the end, of course, it's up to him to compete for minutes. But after his struggles last year, and a poor performance on Tuesday, it might be time to show him some love and respect. We're better with him than without him, if he plays to his potential. And giving him a significant opportunity on Saturday would be wise IMO.

jimsumner
11-06-2014, 11:16 AM
I'd like to see K start Rasheed on Saturday and play him a lot of minutes, good or bad. Lift him up when he's feeling down, show confidence in him, and give him a chance to show himself, his team mates, and the coaching staff what he can do.

Exhibition games are a time for working on some things. And spending some capital on Rasheed Sulaimon seems like a worthwhile investment to me. This team will be good anyway, but a high-functioning Sulaimon would be huge asset to the team. I hope the coaching staff is making an effort to make that happens, rather than just relying on 'Sheed to get his act together. He's still only 20 years old, and to put the onus exclusively on him to prove himself would be to abdicate a critical coaching role.

In the end, of course, it's up to him to compete for minutes. But after his struggles last year, and a poor performance on Tuesday, it might be time to show him some love and respect. We're better with him than without him, if he plays to his potential. And giving him a significant opportunity on Saturday would be wise IMO.

What happens in practice likely will be a determining factor in PT.

devildeac
11-06-2014, 11:32 AM
As good as the freshmen appear to be, Duke hasn't had much recent March success with teams led by freshmen. Maybe these guys are made of sterner stuff. But I think the upperclassmen are key components to any long-term goals.

I love what Jefferson brings to the team. I still haven't seen any sign of a face-up 15-footer; it didn't come to similarly sized John Smith and Tony Lang until they were seniors. But he gets high marks in leadership, defense and rebounding. I think he can play off Okafor by flashing to the basket when the big guy is double-teamed. And he can crash the boards and run the floor. So, he'll get targets-of-opportunity baskets.

And he's back to playing his natural position.

Did I mention his leadership abilities? Not at the Battier level. But approaching the Ryan Kelly level. He's the defensive QB.

And Cook seems to be in a good place right now. He wears his heart on his sleeve and he's been positively beaming the times I've seen him this season. I hope that can withstand the inevitable adversity but he seems to have matured quite a bit. The kids seem to listen to him.

Plumlee? A back-up center, albeit a pretty good back-up center. I've neither seen nor heard anything to suggest that K intends to play Okafor and Plumlee together. Which means he only sees the floor when Okafor is sitting.

That leaves Sulaimon, a riddle wrapped inside a conundrum inside a mystery. So much talent, so little consistency. If he takes last-night's wake-up call to heart, he can bring so much to this team, defense, three-point shooting, another ball handler, an ability to run the floor and get to the rim, either in transition or in the half-court. Duke is very deep on the perimeter but I'm not convinced that anyone else on the team replicates his particular combination of assets. He just has to put it together. Consistently.

"A riddle wrapped inside a conundrum inside a mystery" sounds like something you'd dip in batter, deep fry and serve at the NC State Fair. Did you have one of those this year, Jim?:rolleyes:;)

On a more serious note and to stay on task, I totally agree with your point about PT. About the same way that it's been for 34 years or so.

kAzE
11-06-2014, 11:46 AM
I'd like to see K start Rasheed on Saturday and play him a lot of minutes, good or bad. Lift him up when he's feeling down, show confidence in him, and give him a chance to show himself, his team mates, and the coaching staff what he can do.

Exhibition games are a time for working on some things. And spending some capital on Rasheed Sulaimon seems like a worthwhile investment to me. This team will be good anyway, but a high-functioning Sulaimon would be huge asset to the team. I hope the coaching staff is making an effort to make that happens, rather than just relying on 'Sheed to get his act together. He's still only 20 years old, and to put the onus exclusively on him to prove himself would be to abdicate a critical coaching role.

In the end, of course, it's up to him to compete for minutes. But after his struggles last year, and a poor performance on Tuesday, it might be time to show him some love and respect. We're better with him than without him, if he plays to his potential. And giving him a significant opportunity on Saturday would be wise IMO.

I wouldn't worry about it too much, Coach K is a master at knowing how to motivate guys. He knows what needs to do to get the best out of Sulaimon. Matt Jones has been a pleasant surprise thus far, but I'd be shocked if he actually did start more games this year than Sulaimon.

Clay Feet POF
11-06-2014, 11:58 AM
.

Exhibition games are a time for working on some things. And spending some capital on Rasheed Sulaimon seems like a worthwhile investment to me. This team will be good anyway, but a high-functioning Sulaimon would be huge asset to the team. I hope the coaching staff is making an effort to make that happens, rather than just relying on 'Sheed to get his act together. He's still only 20 years old, and to put the onus exclusively on him to prove himself would be to abdicate a critical coaching role.
.



Completely agree. I think this might be a fragile moment for him, and the Coaching staff should address it.

I think Rasheed will be Fine, once he realizes that this year’s Team Talent will allow him to throttle back and do the things he does best. He doesn’t have to carry the same load as last year. I see this as similar as to how well Cook is adjusting his game within this team.

When Rasheed comes back I believe we will see an 8 man rotation. (Or more)

Henderson
11-06-2014, 12:18 PM
What happens in practice likely will be a determining factor in PT.

Of course. But in advocating for a start and big minutes for Rasheed on Saturday, I was speaking prescriptively, not descriptively.

jimsumner
11-06-2014, 12:44 PM
Of course. But in advocating for a start and big minutes for Rasheed on Saturday, I was speaking prescriptively, not descriptively.

My point is that, if Sulaimon wants to get back in K's good graces, he needs to start that effort in practice, not on Saturday.

Henderson
11-06-2014, 01:08 PM
My point is that, if Sulaimon wants to get back in K's good graces, he needs to start that effort in practice, not on Saturday.

Your point is clear. But you're describing how things will work if past patterns are followed. My point is that Duke could really use Sulaimon, and giving him a start and minutes in an exhibition game could jump start him -- or at least eliminate any excuses -- even if he's not looking good in practice and didn't in that Livingstone game. Duke can't afford playing under-performing players in meaningful games (hence Andre Dawkins' minutes late last season), but I think this next exhibition game is an opportunity.

It's really a question of what motivates Rasheed Sulaimon. And we want to motivate Rasheed Sulaimon. Does that happen with him on the bench because he hasn't played/practiced well, showing him the consequences of not being as good as other players? Or does that happen with him on the floor, showing whether he's up to it or not?

In the preseason, it's not about minutes or establishing a rotation. It's about answering questions and trying to put the team in a position to succeed. Duke with Sulaimon playing at a high level is better than Duke with Sulaimon sitting as a disappointment on the bench. The question is how we get to that better place. I'm not convinced that sitting Sulaimon or playing him limited minutes because of Livinstone or this week's practice accomplishes the goal of incorporating Sulaimon's talents into this team.

Maybe he flops on Saturday; that too would be useful information.

ACCBBallFan
11-06-2014, 03:32 PM
If non injury red shirt is still in play after an exhibition appearance, as it apparently was for Alex Murphy, the choice would not be Sheed.

Semi is needed for his height, and Grayson seems too cocky to agree to it, and perhaps talented enough to compete for PT despite the wealth of perimeter guys in Tyus, Quinn, Matt, Sheed and Justise.

If Duke does go with the occasional 5-man platoon to rest the Duke Blue J-Team,(Jah, Jefferson, Justice, and Jones *2) personally I do not see making it all Sheed on Offense while the starters rest as all that bad, as long as he keeps Quinn in the loop. Their main purpose out there is to hold the score even wth agggressive defense to wear down the opponent, not to dominate, and Sheed has the potential to make that happen.

MP3, Semi, Sheed, Grayson, and Quinn - seems the B-team has three guys who can create but MP3 not an outside threat to clear up the middle for them. But if Sheed can learn not [to put his head down and go without looking for his mates], Semi, Allen and Quinn can all hit an open jumper from a drive and pass out to perimeter play, and MP3 can pick up some garbage points or lobs.

So MP3 and 4 shooters not a bad platoon for 2-3 minutes each twice a half to rest Jah, Jeffeerson and Justise.

It's also most of the guys who competed in the C2C dunk contest.

For the guards though I prefer very aggressive full court pressing subbing in the Sheed/Quinn duo evry 4 minutes for the Jones boys, with no loss of productivity, and more seniority.

In fact in first few road games not a bad idea to start Sheed/Quinn and allow the Jones duo to adapt to the hostile environment the first 4 minutes, and then alternate every TV timeout.

mr. synellinden
11-06-2014, 04:27 PM
Your point is clear. But you're describing how things will work if past patterns are followed. My point is that Duke could really use Sulaimon, and giving him a start and minutes in an exhibition game could jump start him -- or at least eliminate any excuses -- even if he's not looking good in practice and didn't in that Livingstone game. Duke can't afford playing under-performing players in meaningful games (hence Andre Dawkins' minutes late last season), but I think this next exhibition game is an opportunity.

It's really a question of what motivates Rasheed Sulaimon. And we want to motivate Rasheed Sulaimon. Does that happen with him on the bench because he hasn't played/practiced well, showing him the consequences of not being as good as other players? Or does that happen with him on the floor, showing whether he's up to it or not?

In the preseason, it's not about minutes or establishing a rotation. It's about answering questions and trying to put the team in a position to succeed. Duke with Sulaimon playing at a high level is better than Duke with Sulaimon sitting as a disappointment on the bench. The question is how we get to that better place. I'm not convinced that sitting Sulaimon or playing him limited minutes because of Livinstone or this week's practice accomplishes the goal of incorporating Sulaimon's talents into this team.

Maybe he flops on Saturday; that too would be useful information.

I think the point Jim is making (or at least this is related or supportive of his point) - is that is not the way the Duke basketball system works. Players earn their playing time by effort and commitment and playing well in practices. Nothing is guaranteed - everything is earned, which is the way it should be and why Kris Humphries never played for Duke and why Chris Burgess transferred. It's also why Laettner gave Hurley such a hard time, especially when he was a freshman because Coach K anointed him a starter before the first practice - which was inconsistent with what had been ingrained in the players' heads about earning playing time and Laettner thought it was unfair.

Let's put it another way. Let's say Sulaimon sulks and doesn't play hard and/or well in practices this week - which is obvious to his coaches and teammates - but he still gets a start on Saturday and a lot of playing time at the expense of Matt, Quinn and Grayson. What message does that send to him - there are no consequences for poor play/poor effort - or to the rest of the team? If Rasheed can't play harder/better through his own desire - and others are playing harder/better, then he doesn't deserve the minutes.

superdave
11-06-2014, 04:35 PM
I think the point Jim is making (or at least this is related or supportive of his point) - is that is not the way the Duke basketball system works. Players earn their playing time by effort and commitment and playing well in practices. Nothing is guaranteed - everything is earned, which is the way it should be and why Kris Humphries never played for Duke and why Chris Burgess transferred. It's also why Laettner gave Hurley such a hard time, especially when he was a freshman because Coach K anointed him a starter before the first practice - which was inconsistent with what had been ingrained in the players' heads about earning playing time and Laettner thought it was unfair.

Let's put it another way. Let's say Sulaimon sulks and doesn't play hard and/or well in practices this week - which is obvious to his coaches and teammates - but he still gets a start on Saturday and a lot of playing time at the expense of Matt, Quinn and Grayson. What message does that send to him - there are no consequences for poor play/poor effort - or to the rest of the team? If Rasheed can't play harder/better through his own desire - and others are playing harder/better, then he doesn't deserve the minutes.

Do we have any evidence that Rasheed is sulking or not practicing hard? Or is this more than likely Rasheed trying to adapt to his third drastically different roster in three years? (Mason/Ryan/Seth then Jabari/Rodney and now Jahlil/Tyus/Justise)

I suspect it is Rasheed trying to figure out how to fit in. The most likely way for him to fit in would seem to be spot up 3s and great on-ball D. Is that what the coaches have pointed him toward? I dont know....

Troublemaker
11-06-2014, 04:48 PM
One exhibition ago, Sheed was perhaps the second-best player on the court during CTC. I don't think we need to give him a pity start. He just needs to shake off one bad performance and tear it up on Saturday.

As much as I sympathize with the proposed gesture, I don't think Duke gives out pity starts nor should we. There's the "tail wagging the dog" aspect of it. I really like what the J-Crew (ACCBallFan, this is my fave of all your J suggestions) has been doing as a starting unit. They've been crushing it, so let's continue to develop that chemistry there. It's not like everyone on the team is a finished product right now except for Sheed. Everyone needs development.

And again, we don't know that Sheed's been struggling this preseason, apart from Livingstone. So far it's one great performance followed by a bad one. Let's see what he does on Saturday.

Kedsy
11-06-2014, 04:55 PM
And again, we don't know that Sheed's been struggling this preseason, apart from Livingstone. So far it's one great performance followed by a bad one. Let's see what he does on Saturday.

I agree. We fans tend to get myopic, sometimes seeing only the most recent game as a set-in-stone tableau of each player's skills and development. And of the team's level and development, as well. But of course none of that's an accurate depiction of anything.

Troublemaker
11-06-2014, 04:57 PM
I agree. We fans tend to get myopic, sometimes seeing only the most recent game as a set-in-stone tableau of each player's skills and development. And of the team's level and development, as well. But of course none of that's an accurate depiction of anything.

Next thing you know, someone's going to suggest redshirting him!

roywhite
11-06-2014, 04:57 PM
.

For the guards though I prefer very aggressive full court pressing subbing in the Sheed/Quinn duo evry 4 minutes for the Jones boys, with no loss of productivity, and more seniority.

In fact in first few road games not a bad idea to start Sheed/Quinn and allow the Jones duo to adapt to the hostile environment the first 4 minutes, and then alternate every TV timeout.

I doubt Coach K would make such adjustments; he'll put his best lineup on the floor to start, and so far that appears to be J-Crew.

We'll be tested soon enough:
Michigan State 11/18 in Indianapolis
Temple 11/21 in Brooklyn
@Wisconsin 12/3

mr. synellinden
11-06-2014, 05:07 PM
Do we have any evidence that Rasheed is sulking or not practicing hard? Or is this more than likely Rasheed trying to adapt to his third drastically different roster in three years? (Mason/Ryan/Seth then Jabari/Rodney and now Jahlil/Tyus/Justise)

I suspect it is Rasheed trying to figure out how to fit in. The most likely way for him to fit in would seem to be spot up 3s and great on-ball D. Is that what the coaches have pointed him toward? I dont know....

No, we don't have any evidence. And I wasn't suggesting we did. I was just trying to offer an example.

But to get to your question - I don't know what is more likely. There were issues last year that prompted his teammates to put the onus on him and say that he knew what he had to do better.

And as far as adapting to a different roster, so do Quinn and Marshall and Amile. Let's not make it like it's that hard. It's basketball - I'm starting to think of the famous scene in Hoosiers when Coach Dale measures the baskets - and he's playing the same position with some of the same players and some of the same coaches. His need to adapt is no greater than the 4 freshman who are playing division 1 college basketball for the first time and seem to be adapting okay so far.

Look, I love Rasheed and think he is going to be a great player for us this year. He has the talent and some of the best teammates and coaches in college basketball. It's all at his disposal and ultimately, it's on him to play well. I don't think there should be any excuses about adapting or figuring out how to fit in. He's too talented and has too much experience for that to be a factor at this point.

uh_no
11-06-2014, 05:33 PM
Next thing you know, someone's going to suggest redshirting him!

now that you mention it....if he doesn't start getting minutes, i'm afraid he might transfer

Kfanarmy
11-07-2014, 04:00 PM
... his lack of surpassing physical tools may limit the ultimate heights to which he can rise. I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at here?

Des Esseintes
11-07-2014, 06:29 PM
I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at here?
The OP said Tyus had a much higher ceiling than Duhon. I questioned that assertion, based on Duhon's decade-long NBA career and a defensive prowess. Jones looks to have a much more sophisticated offensive game than Chris, but he is not a preternatural runner or leaper. Without that dominant athleticism, he may struggle to have a career that much surpasses Duhon's. Which is fine since, again, Chris made terrific money over the course of a long career. Even though Chris was only infrequently a starter, the number of dudes with better careers is a pretty select number. Will Tyler Ennis, for example, have a longer or more productive run? Maybe, but I think I'd bet against it.

Gthoma2a
11-07-2014, 09:00 PM
No, we don't have any evidence. And I wasn't suggesting we did. I was just trying to offer an example.

But to get to your question - I don't know what is more likely. There were issues last year that prompted his teammates to put the onus on him and say that he knew what he had to do better.

And as far as adapting to a different roster, so do Quinn and Marshall and Amile. Let's not make it like it's that hard. It's basketball - I'm starting to think of the famous scene in Hoosiers when Coach Dale measures the baskets - and he's playing the same position with some of the same players and some of the same coaches. His need to adapt is no greater than the 4 freshman who are playing division 1 college basketball for the first time and seem to be adapting okay so far.

Look, I love Rasheed and think he is going to be a great player for us this year. He has the talent and some of the best teammates and coaches in college basketball. It's all at his disposal and ultimately, it's on him to play well. I don't think there should be any excuses about adapting or figuring out how to fit in. He's too talented and has too much experience for that to be a factor at this point.

Not to mention that he seems to be an up and down player through his college career. Really good at times, and very frustrating at other times. I hate seeing him argue calls or flail to get a call rather than just pulling up to avoid the contact for an easy floater. The leg-kick that he started to rely on last year for calls was getting on my nerves, too. It didn't work, he didn't hit the shot and he stayed behind the play to act incredulous about the call, rather than playing the defense we need him for. He may be a guy who is best at coming off of the bench, based on these things. If he knows the leash is tight, he will realize that he has little license to do the things NBA players do (at least not until he has proven at this level that he deserves to be there). A lot of talent, but with results that fluctuate wildly, and part of that is on him for playing wildly.

subzero02
11-07-2014, 09:36 PM
Not to mention that he seems to be an up and down player through his college career. Really good at times, and very frustrating at other times. I hate seeing him argue calls or flail to get a call rather than just pulling up to avoid the contact for an easy floater. The leg-kick that he started to rely on last year for calls was getting on my nerves, too. It didn't work, he didn't hit the shot and he stayed behind the play to act incredulous about the call, rather than playing the defense we need him for He may be a guy who is best at coming off of the bench, based on these things. If he knows the leash is tight, he will realize that he has little license to do the things NBA players do (at least not until he has proven at this level that he deserves to be there). A lot of talent, but with results that fluctuate wildly, and part of that is on him for playing wildly.

This is something that I am surprised K tolerates at all. I would pull Rasheed from the game at the earliest opportunity each and every time he did this. It's K's job to argue calls during live action; it's the players' responsibility to stay within the flow of the action.

ACCBBallFan
11-07-2014, 11:15 PM
I have no inside knowledge but suspect that Sheed is making his biggest contribution in practice by tightly guarding Tyus and allowing him to adjust to the speed and strength of the college game.

Good and bad, coach K already knows what he has with Sheed.

Also makes for an interesting battle between Justise and Grayson while Quinn guards Matt.

On the other end though, Tyus guards Quinn and perhaps Justise guards Sheed and has the chance difficult as it may be to go head to head with Justise for the starting PF slot.

Either that or Matt/Sheed vie head to head for the SG slot, and Justise/Grayson compete head to head for the SF slot.

So Grayson and Sheed each have the opportunity to displace a SG Matt or a SF Justise.

So in each scenario Sheed is head to head with one of Duke's best perimeter defenders after already expending a lot of energy helping Tyus develop.

I am assuming Duke will continuously press and alternate guard duos every TV timeout or so.

Sheed will be fine and just pairs better with Quinn so that Duke's defense does not suffer with Quinn/Tyus neither known for their defense nor Sheed/Tyus both needing to handle the ball a lot as does Jah, and only one ball for the three of them.

With Tyus and Sheed both excellent players, not necessarily together having them paired Tyus/Matt and Sheed/Quinn makes so much sense.

One thing I would like to see though is to not always start the Jones boys. Particulary versus Mich St or Wisconsin early in the season might be better to start the senior Quinn and the junior Sheed to allow Tyus and Matt to adjust to the game venue the first 4 minutes.

Ditto in tough road games (no such thing as an easy ACC raod game but particularly this year) Louisville, St. John's (technically neutral and of course not ACC) UVA, Notre Dame, FSU, Cuse and UNC.

The veterans Sheed and Quinn have been there and the Tyus not at all and in Matt's case not much PT and poor shooting when he did. So play them every 4 minutes but let them adapt to hostile environment at the very beginning.

ACCBBallFan
11-07-2014, 11:22 PM
Before anyone frets too much about Duke road schedule vis a vis its chief rival, UNC's road games are tough too with UK, Ohio St (neutral), Clemson, Lousiville, Pitt and Duke.

Though Lville does get UK and Ohio St at home and Indiana neutral, they still have to visit UNC, Pitt, UVA, Cuse and FSU.

UVA has it pretty easy until its last 2 at Cuse and Lville in March, but also has UNC and N Dame road games.

Boeheim is notorious for cupcake scheduling but cannot avoid Michigan and then Clemson, UNC, Pitt, Notre Dame and Duke hostile environments.

So tough conference leads to many tough road games