NBA 2014-15 General Discussion Thread

[pfrduke]

Other moderators more knowledgable than I can decide whether this belongs on the main board or the off-topic board (I start it on the main board on the theory that all basketball is on topic), but I thought it would be useful to have a general thread for commentary on the NBA season.

To start - yes, it was against Orlando, but Anthony Davis and Omer Asik combined for 38 points, 34 boards, and 14 blocks in their debut as a front line. I'm certain that I'm forgetting something obvious, but is there a better starting 4-5 combination in the league?

[NSDukeFan]

Other moderators more knowledgable than I can decide whether this belongs on the main board or the off-topic board (I start it on the main board on the theory that all basketball is on topic), but I thought it would be useful to have a general thread for commentary on the NBA season.

To start - yes, it was against Orlando, but Anthony Davis and Omer Asik combined for 38 points, 34 boards, and 14 blocks in their debut as a front line. I'm certain that I'm forgetting something obvious, but is there a better starting 4-5 combination in the league?

Blake Griffin and Deandre Jordan might be. Lamarcus Aldridge and Robin Lopez and Dirk Nowitzki/ Tyson Chandler are in the conversation. Those are the first groups I thought of. Kevin Love and LeBron if you want to cheat would be tops, but Love/ Varejao is pretty good.

[moonpie23]

Julius Randle breaks his leg in the lakers' first game... :(

lakers were needing him....

[tbyers11]

Julius Randle breaks his leg in the lakers' first game... :(

lakers were needing him....

I don't wish a serious injury on anyone, even Kentucky guys, but Randle's injury should mean more playing time for Ryan Kelly when he is healthy in a week or so.

[Troublemaker]

To start - yes, it was against Orlando, but Anthony Davis and Omer Asik combined for 38 points, 34 boards, and 14 blocks in their debut as a front line. I'm certain that I'm forgetting something obvious, but is there a better starting 4-5 combination in the league?

That's pretty sick.
26pts, 17rebs, 9 blks for Davis
14pts, 17rebs, 5 blks for Asik

Almost certainly the best defensive tandem at least.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Julius Randle breaks his leg in the lakers' first game... :(

lakers were needing him....

Yeah, this is awful. Randle is one of the few University of NBA players I liked. He's was one of the foundation pieces in the AK era (After Kobe).

The Lakers are going to be sooooo bad this year.

[luvdahops]

Blake Griffin and Deandre Jordan might be. Lamarcus Aldridge and Robin Lopez and Dirk Nowitzki/ Tyson Chandler are in the conversation. Those are the first groups I thought of. Kevin Love and LeBron if you want to cheat would be tops, but Love/ Varejao is pretty good.

Paul Gasol and Joakhim Noah are in the conversation, too, especially if you throw in Taj Gibson, who might be the top reserve post player in the league.

[theAlaskanBear]

Julius Randle breaks his leg in the lakers' first game... :(

lakers were needing him....

One of the more bizarre injuries I have seen. He broke his right leg when the momentum from his left leg kicked his planted right leg. Crazy.

[kAzE]

Blake Griffin and Deandre Jordan might be. Lamarcus Aldridge and Robin Lopez and Dirk Nowitzki/ Tyson Chandler are in the conversation. Those are the first groups I thought of. Kevin Love and LeBron if you want to cheat would be tops, but Love/ Varejao is pretty good.

Asik is nothing special, he had a good game, but I don't think this is something we'll see too often. Davis, on the other hand, is the best big man in the league, and it's not close.

[CDu]

Asik is nothing special, he had a good game, but I don't think this is something we'll see too often. Davis, on the other hand, is the best big man in the league, and it's not close.

I would say that Asik is nothing special on offense. But I think he's one of a handful of guys on the short list for best defensive big man in the game. If he had any semblance of an offensive game, he'd be discussed among the elite. But the dude makes Dwight Howard look like Kevin McHale, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Tim Duncan wrapped up into one person offensively.

[Li_Duke]

I don't wish a serious injury on anyone, even Kentucky guys, but Randle's injury should mean more playing time for Ryan Kelly when he is healthy in a week or so.

I wish this was true, but considering Scott says he wants to go old-school and shoot less threes, I think this mostly means extra playing time for former Tar-Heel Ed Davis.

[CDu]

I wish this was true, but considering Scott says he wants to go old-school and shoot less threes, I think this mostly means extra playing time for former Tar-Heel Ed Davis.

Yeah, I think you're right. Kelly was fighting a very uphill battle for PT with Boozer, Hill, Davis, and Randle in front of him. Now, instead of being the 5th big, he's the 4th big. That will mean some playing time, but likely not a lot of playing time.

[tommy]

Yeah, I think you're right. Kelly was fighting a very uphill battle for PT with Boozer, Hill, Davis, and Randle in front of him. Now, instead of being the 5th big, he's the 4th big. That will mean some playing time, but likely not a lot of playing time.

True, although on this sad sack Laker team, Jordan Hill is actually going to be playing a lot of center. Ryan's problem is that Ed Davis actually played pretty well in the pre-season, and has established himself as a guy who's going to get minutes. Ryan's other problem is that as a spot-up shooter he really needs to play off a strong low-post presence, a guy who can draw doubles which leads to the ball swinging ultimately to Ryan for whatever shots he's gonna get. The only guy the Lakers have who teams even need to begin to think about doubling in the post is Boozer -- not Hill and not Davis -- and Ryan will likely spend very little time on the court at the same time as 'Los.

Putting aside the terrible luck vis-a-vis Randle, this Laker team is just so poorly constructed. The pieces don't fit at all -- and they're not very good pieces to begin with. Kobe's absurd contract made it impossible to attract any quality players, and the ones they did bring in are others' unwanted spare parts. This team is not going to get to 30 wins IMO. Question is, when will the totally unrealistic sportstalk radio guys out here start their discussions of next year, with the assumption being that the Lakers will get Jahlil Okafor because, well, they're the Lakers?

[CDu]

True, although on this sad sack Laker team, Jordan Hill is actually going to be playing a lot of center. Ryan's problem is that Ed Davis actually played pretty well in the pre-season, and has established himself as a guy who's going to get minutes. Ryan's other problem is that as a spot-up shooter he really needs to play off a strong low-post presence, a guy who can draw doubles which leads to the ball swinging ultimately to Ryan for whatever shots he's gonna get. The only guy the Lakers have who teams even need to begin to think about doubling in the post is Boozer -- not Hill and not Davis -- and Ryan will likely spend very little time on the court at the same time as 'Los.

Putting aside the terrible luck vis-a-vis Randle, this Laker team is just so poorly constructed. The pieces don't fit at all -- and they're not very good pieces to begin with. Kobe's absurd contract made it impossible to attract any quality players, and the ones they did bring in are others' unwanted spare parts. This team is not going to get to 30 wins IMO. Question is, when will the totally unrealistic sportstalk radio guys out here start their discussions of next year, with the assumption being that the Lakers will get Jahlil Okafor because, well, they're the Lakers?

I generally think of NBA PF and C as somewhat interchangeable. Hence I said Kelly is the 4th big. I expect Boozer and Hill to eat up the C minutes and Hill/Boozer and Davis to play most of the PF minutes. There just aren't too many situations where the 4th big gets decent run, and I am not sure that LA is an exception here.

I won't be shocked if the Lakers fall short of 20 wins this year. No defense, Kobe is old, and there isn't enough help for him. And the West is GOOD too.

[MCFinARL]

One of the more bizarre injuries I have seen. He broke his right leg when the momentum from his left leg kicked his planted right leg. Crazy.

That is crazy, and a very tough break (oops, pun unintentional) for both the Lakers and Randle. Is it just familiarity bias (Randle, Paul George, Kevin Ware), or do leg breaks in basketball seem to be fairly flukey injuries?

[mr. synellinden]

Terrible and bizarre injury - and now Randle is out for the season (http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/11786341/julius-randle-los-angeles-lakers-miss-remainder-rookie-season-due-fractured-tibia). You have to feel terrible for him (I thought he was going to be one of the best rookies from this class - and he still may be) but maybe he can follow the path of another LA power forward - Blake Griffin - who missed all of his first season.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

First off the post Lebron Heat era began with a great win vs the Wizards who many believe can complete for the East this season. Bosh looked like the Raptors Bosh and was devastating with his combination of outside shooting and aggressive drives. Norris Cole started at point and played extremely well, while Chalmers came of the bench and was really good in his new role. Wade was Wade taking over the fourth quarter and bringing home the victory even after a sprain. Deng is still getting comfortable on his new team but he played well and looks more explosive than last year, McBob didnt play and Andre Dawkins didnt dress.

On a joyful side note the Bulls killed the Knicks by 24 Dunleavey was 0/5 with zero points while Gasol had 21 and 11.. Rose finished with 13 points and 5 assists. Melo only managed 13 points on the night

The Charlotte HORNETS won in OT on a Kemba walker 21 footer as time expired. Not a great start for Jabari as he only had 8 points and 4 boards. He only took 9 shots. Gerald Henderson only played 9 minutes and had zero points. Looks like his days with the Hornets may be coming to an end after this season.

Grizzlies beat the Wolves, while Wiggins only had 6 points on the night.

Portland beat the Thunder, big news here is that Lance Thomas racked starter minutes with 31 minutes and 14 points in KD's absence

The suns beat the Lakers, Ryan didnt play but Miles Plumlee had 10 points and 6 boards starting he was 5/7 from the field.

Raptors beat the Hawks, Elton Brand had 12 mins of playing time and scored 2 point with 1 board. G. Vasquez had a good game of the bench with 12 points and 3 assists

Finally Golden State defeated the Kings, nothing Duke related except Seth Currys brother dropped 24 points on 17 shots and also had 10 rebounds and 5 assists. Also A guy who chose to go to a school that doesn't give their athletes real classes and offers no educational benefits instead of going to Duke scored 9 and pulled down 6 boards. Its ok though he never graduated so doesn't have a sham degree.

[theAlaskanBear]

First off the post Lebron Heat era began with a great win vs the Wizards who many believe can complete for the East this season. Bosh looked like the Raptors Bosh and was devastating with his combination of outside shooting and aggressive drives. Norris Cole started at point and played extremely well, while Chalmers came of the bench and was really good in his new role. Wade was Wade taking over the fourth quarter and bringing home the victory even after a sprain. Deng is still getting comfortable on his new team but he played well and looks more explosive than last year, McBob didnt play and Andre Dawkins didnt dress.

On a joyful side note the Bulls killed the Knicks by 24 Dunleavey was 0/5 with zero points while Gasol had 21 and 11.. Rose finished with 13 points and 5 assists. Melo only managed 13 points on the night

The Charlotte HORNETS won in OT on a Kemba walker 21 footer as time expired. Not a great start for Jabari as he only had 8 points and 4 boards. He only took 9 shots. Gerald Henderson only played 9 minutes and had zero points. Looks like his days with the Hornets may be coming to an end after this season.

Grizzlies beat the Wolves, while Wiggins only had 6 points on the night.

Portland beat the Thunder, big news here is that Lance Thomas racked starter minutes with 31 minutes and 14 points in KD's absence

The suns beat the Lakers, Ryan didnt play but Miles Plumlee had 10 points and 6 boards starting he was 5/7 from the field.

Raptors beat the Hawks, Elton Brand had 12 mins of playing time and scored 2 point with 1 board. G. Vasquez had a good game of the bench with 12 points and 3 assists

Finally Golden State defeated the Kings, nothing Duke related except Seth Currys brother dropped 24 points on 17 shots and also had 10 rebounds and 5 assists. Also A guy who chose to go to a school that doesn't give their athletes real classes and offers no educational benefits instead of going to Duke scored 9 and pulled down 6 boards. Its ok though he never graduated so doesn't have a sham degree.

Nice summary. I want to add that in the Bulls-Knicks game Dunleavy defended Melo the entire time he was on the court and did a terrific job.

I watched pretty much the entire Hornets-Bucks game, and I was unimpressed with the Bucks offense. They built a large lead primarily due a hot shooting night from Middleton and Mayo, and when it started to disappear they had no answer except space the floor and let the guards shoot jumpshots. Parker in particular it seemed like in the half-court his role was to stand at the baseline 3 and let the guards do their thing. I was also not a fan of J Kidd's rotations. Parker played 36 minutes, while Ilyasova and Henson only played 10-12 minutes each. Marshall and Wolters didn't get off the bench (not a big fan of Wolters, but maybe Marshall could have generated some offense for the bigs).

I feel sorry for Boozer, but it is going to be fun to watch Kobe's head explode this year. Looking forward to seeing him take 25-30 shots a game in losing efforts. Also nice to see the Thunder struggle with Westbrook taking 27 shots and shooting 16 FT. The Thunder are down to just 9 players due to injury, so Lance should get some quality PT to start the year. To round out the Shooter's Ball, Kemba Walker wins the Chucker award with 26 shot attempts due to actually tying the game to send it to OT, and also hitting the winning shot in OT.

One game means nothing in the Rookie of the Year race, but I have to say, McDermott looks like a very nice fit on the Bulls. He played good defense, got 12 shots, overall looked quite comfortable, and he has maybe the best coach outside of Pop in the league. Another "rookie" to keep an eye on it Kosta Papanikolaou. Jabari has a great chance as he will get lots of PT with the Bucks, but I am not sure they will have an offense that puts him in good positions and seeks him out. He will have to be more assertive and aggressive if he ever wants to see the ball from Knight/Mayo/Giannis. He was at his best last night on the break and pushing the ball off the dribble. He had a nice break where he pushed it up the right side of the court and went behind the back dribble to get into the middle of the court and open up a passing lane for Knight who was under the basket, but Knight was fouled and couldn't finish the bucket.

I am looking forward to seeing Kyrie play tonight.

[MCFinARL]

First off the post Lebron Heat era began with a great win vs the Wizards who many believe can complete for the East this season. Bosh looked like the Raptors Bosh and was devastating with his combination of outside shooting and aggressive drives. Norris Cole started at point and played extremely well, while Chalmers came of the bench and was really good in his new role. Wade was Wade taking over the fourth quarter and bringing home the victory even after a sprain. Deng is still getting comfortable on his new team but he played well and looks more explosive than last year, McBob didnt play and Andre Dawkins didnt dress.



FWIW, the Wizards were missing two key players, as Bradley Beal is hurt and Nene was suspended (along with three other Wizards players--DeJuan Blair, Daniel Orton, and Xavier Silas) for a scuffle in a pre-season game. But the Heat looked good, and given the Wizards' history, I will believe they are good enough to compete for the East when I see it.

[CDu]

On a joyful side note the Bulls killed the Knicks by 24 Dunleavey was 0/5 with zero points while Gasol had 21 and 11.. Rose finished with 13 points and 5 assists. Melo only managed 13 points on the night.

This game was even less close than the 24 point score suggests. The Bulls didn't even have to play their starters for the last 16 minutes of the game. Rose and Noah got a lot of rest, playing just ~20 minutes. The Bulls' second unit (and beyond) got a LOT of run.

Dunleavy didn't score and was largely uninvolved on offense (he is basically playing the Trajan Langdon catch-and-shoot role for the Bulls), but he played really well defensively. With the Bulls' defensive ace Jimmy Butler sitting out with a sprained thumb, Dunleavy was assigned to Carmelo. He held Anthony to a very mediocre night. Dunleavy is certainly not known for his defense, so that was a pleasant surprise. There is a reasonable chance that Butler is out for the next game too, so life gets tougher for Dunleavy as the Bulls face the Cavs on Friday.

As for the non-Duke Bulls, it was a bit of a cakewalk after a shaky first 6 minutes. Gasol and Gibson absolutely dominated the Knicks' bigs, each topping 20 points and combining for nearly 20 rebounds. Noah was a big presence as well, blocking 3 shots in about 20 minutes of action.

Rose didn't have to play much, but he looked very solid, getting 13 points (on 3-7 from the field), 5 assists, and 2 steals in his 20ish minutes of play.

Hopefully Butler is back for the Cleveland game. The Bulls should have a big edge inside and should match up well at PG, but without Butler (who is generally terrific against James) they have very little in the way of defense against LeBron.

Hard to tell how much of this was the Knicks' futility (they looked really bad in their triangle debut) and how much was the Bulls looking great (probably a healthy amount of both). But it was a good look for the Bulls as nearly everything was working for them in their opener.

[flyingdutchdevil]

This game was even less close than the 24 point score suggests. The Bulls didn't even have to play their starters for the last 16 minutes of the game. Rose and Noah got a lot of rest, playing just ~20 minutes. The Bulls' second unit (and beyond) got a LOT of run.

Dunleavy didn't score and was largely uninvolved on offense (he is basically playing the Trajan Langdon catch-and-shoot role for the Bulls), but he played really well defensively. With the Bulls' defensive ace Jimmy Butler sitting out with a sprained thumb, Dunleavy was assigned to Carmelo. He held Anthony to a very mediocre night. Dunleavy is certainly not known for his defense, so that was a pleasant surprise. There is a reasonable chance that Butler is out for the next game too, so life gets tougher for Dunleavy as the Bulls face the Cavs on Friday.

As for the non-Duke Bulls, it was a bit of a cakewalk after a shaky first 6 minutes. Gasol and Gibson absolutely dominated the Knicks' bigs, each topping 20 points and combining for nearly 20 rebounds. Noah was a big presence as well, blocking 3 shots in about 20 minutes of action.

Rose didn't have to play much, but he looked very solid, getting 13 points (on 3-7 from the field), 5 assists, and 2 steals in his 20ish minutes of play.

Hopefully Butler is back for the Cleveland game. The Bulls should have a big edge inside and should match up well at PG, but without Butler (who is generally terrific against James) they have very little in the way of defense against LeBron.

Hard to tell how much of this was the Knicks' futility (they looked really bad in their triangle debut) and how much was the Bulls looking great (probably a healthy amount of both). But it was a good look for the Bulls as nearly everything was working for them in their opener.

Bulls definitely look good. They need to nickname this team, "Big Man Dunk City", because that's all the highlights showed. I forgot that Gasol can still dunk!

This Bulls team is a huge threat to the Cavs. I'd be shocked if the Eastern Champ didn't involve either one of these teams. The Bulls are so solid from 1-5, but if one key player goes down, there goes the whole season. In order for the Bulls to have a chance at the title, they need a healthy Rose, Noah, Gasol, Gibson, and Butler. An injury to any of these players would severely reduce their chances. And given the Bulls's injury history, I'm not so optimistic.

The Cavs need a healthy Love, Lebron, and Irving (not a given). But an injury to their supporting staff isn't as detrimental.

[CDu]

Totally agree that a season-ending injury to any of the Bulls' top-5 players would bury their chances. But aside from Rose, that has not happened. I am hardly more concerned about that than I would be a season-ending injury for the Cavs. Flukey injuries can happen to anyone.

I totally expect the East to be decided by Chicago and Cleveland. And I don't expect anyone else to be close.

[CDu]

Rough start for the Cavs. Losing at home to the Knicks. Irving had a solid but not spectacular night. Love was solid too. But LeBron really struggled and the Cavs' bench was absolutely nonexistent. Not the best start to the homecoming.

Thankfully for the Cavs they get a chance for redemption against the Bulls tomorrow.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

Rough start for the Cavs. Losing at home to the Knicks. Irving had a solid but not spectacular night. Love was solid too. But LeBron really struggled and the Cavs' bench was absolutely nonexistent. Not the best start to the homecoming.

Thankfully for the Cavs they get a chance for redemption against the Bulls tomorrow.

I hate to say it but I am so glad they lost and Lebron looked like garbage. I know it won't last, but as a Heat fan It makes me smile just a tiny bit. Now I fully expect them to get it together and be a solid contender down the road, but with that horrible bench I don't see them winning the Championship, probably won't even win the East this season. Still have a long ways to go though.

[_Gary]

I'll go on record right now and say that after tonight, my worries about what I was seeing from LeBron in preseason have been justified. He's not the same player with the weight off. There was no explosiveness. No strength. He basically fumbled the ball away on multiple occasions. Perhaps he proves me wrong quickly, but I think losing that weight took away the one thing he had on everyone else - a huge, muscular freight train of a man on a basketball court that couldn't be stopped once he set his mind on driving to the hole. He tried that over and over tonight and looked like a pinball instead of a wrecking ball. Not a great sign for the Cavs. Kyrie and Love were fine. I thought Kyrie was pretty darned good tonight and expect him to deliver similar numbers throughout the year, with assists going up as his teammates make more shots. He was very close on several poke away steals and I think he'll be good for couple of those on most nights.

But if LeBron doesn't pick it up then it will be long year in Cleveland. I expect he will play better, but I'm telling everyone that the weight loss was NOT beneficial to him.

[CDu]

I'll go on record right now and say that after tonight, my worries about what I was seeing from LeBron in preseason have been justified. He's not the same player with the weight off. There was no explosiveness. No strength. He basically fumbled the ball away on multiple occasions. Perhaps he proves me wrong quickly, but I think losing that weight took away the one thing he had on everyone else - a huge, muscular freight train of a man on a basketball court that couldn't be stopped once he set his mind on driving to the hole. He tried that over and over tonight and looked like a pinball instead of a wrecking ball. Not a great sign for the Cavs. Kyrie and Love were fine. I thought Kyrie was pretty darned good tonight and expect him to deliver similar numbers throughout the year, with assists going up as his teammates make more shots. He was very close on several poke away steals and I think he'll be good for couple of those on most nights.

But if LeBron doesn't pick it up then it will be long year in Cleveland. I expect he will play better, but I'm telling everyone that the weight loss was NOT beneficial to him.

I agree somewhat with your concern about James. But it was just one game, and an emotional one at that.

The challenge for Irving will be the same as it has been for him for a while: can he succeed against the better PG. Irving has a bit of a reputation for killing weaker PG and struggling against the better PG. If Coeveland is going to get where they want to go, they are going to need James to be James and Irving to not just be a bumslayer.

I am not concerned yet about the Cavs. They have a tough assignment tonight (much easier if Butler doesn't play though), but it is a long season.

[ice-9]

Irving has a bit of a reputation

Really?

[Billy Dat]

I hate to say it but I am so glad they lost and Lebron looked like garbage. I know it won't last, but as a Heat fan It makes me smile just a tiny bit. Now I fully expect them to get it together and be a solid contender down the road, but with that horrible bench I don't see them winning the Championship, probably won't even win the East this season. Still have a long ways to go though.

In the words of former Boston College Coach Jim O'Brien, "When is somebody going to step up and give these kids the credit they deserve?!?"

Which kids?

Travis Wear, Cole Aldrich, Jason Smith, Shane Larkin, Quincy Acy - your 2014-15 NY Knicks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Having watched the Knicks play the Bulls and the Cavs on consecutive nights, a lot of things are apparent. The Bulls are so much better defensively than the Cavs and their bench is much better. Still, though, the Cavs were unlucky to be facing a Knicks team that got humiliated the night before. I give Derek Fisher credit because he made adjustments right away, he brought STAT off the bench, barely played Hardaway Jr. and went big to counter the Cavs lack of size. Trust me, everything went the Knicks way from some crazy late shot clock prayers going in to getting the benefit of nearly every call. But, I will take it!

The Cavs are going to need a lot of time to gel. They aren't connected on either end of the floor, they were overpassing, Kyrie kept resorting to going one-on-one, Lebron sucked, they don't run through Love enough, etc. it was that kind of night for them.

Cavs v Bulls should be awesome tonight!!!!!

[CDu]

Really?

Really. Irving's career averages for ORtg and DRtg are 109 (ORtg) and 110 (DRtg). That indicates that Irving is a well-above average offensive player and a well-below average defensive player on average.

But here are his numbers against the six best teams over the past several years:
Miami (7 games): 98 ORtg, 114 DRtg
Chicago (7 games): 100 ORtg, 122 DRtg
LA Clippers (3 games): 100 ORtg, 101 DRtg
Indiana (7 games): 95 ORtg, 105 DRtg
OKC (4 games): 125 ORtg, 108 DRtg
San Antonio (5 games): 88 ORtg, 122 DRtg

Average (33 games): 99.7 ORtg, 113.1 DRtg

Aside from playing very well offensively against OKC, he's been pretty consistently below-average-to-terrible offensively and below-average-to-terrible defensively against the league's best teams.

I'd say that, coming into this season, the three biggest knocks on Irving have been as follows:
1. Very bad defense
2. Doesn't make his teammates better/doesn't lead his team to wins
3. Doesn't play well against the league's best

These next couple of years are big for him and a huge chance to change that narrative. Hopefully for him he can make that jump.

[_Gary]

Really. Irving's career averages for ORtg and DRtg are 109 (ORtg) and 110 (DRtg). That indicates that Irving is a well-above average offensive player and a well-below average defensive player on average.

But here are his numbers against the six best teams over the past several years:
Miami (7 games): 98 ORtg, 114 DRtg
Chicago (7 games): 100 ORtg, 122 DRtg
LA Clippers (3 games): 100 ORtg, 101 DRtg
Indiana (7 games): 95 ORtg, 105 DRtg
OKC (4 games): 125 ORtg, 108 DRtg
San Antonio (5 games): 88 ORtg, 122 DRtg

Average (33 games): 99.7 ORtg, 113.1 DRtg

Aside from playing very well offensively against OKC, he's been pretty consistently below-average-to-terrible offensively and below-average-to-terrible defensively against the league's best teams.

I'd say that, coming into this season, the three biggest knocks on Irving have been as follows:
1. Very bad defense
2. Doesn't make his teammates better/doesn't lead his team to wins
3. Doesn't play well against the league's best

These next couple of years are big for him and a huge chance to change that narrative. Hopefully for him he can make that jump.

I appreciate the stats, CDU. And I basically agree concerning the first two points you raised. I think the sample size is still a bit small to judge the third point, but that's just me. I'm absolutely confident that Kyrie, now that he actually has guys to work with (although another spot up shooter ala Ray Allen would help), will have an excellent year. The guy was an NBA All-Star last year. Heck, he was the MVP of the All-Star game (say what you want about those games). And the same was true this summer with Team USA. So I'm looking only at the recent past when he's been playing with other very good players to base my predictions on.

My biggest concern for the Cavs early on will be for them to learn to how to play with one another. Kyrie is about the best ankle-breaker in the NBA right now. He can't be stopped one on one when he wants to drive. Heck, he'll usually make two guys look bad when he really wants to go to the hole. What Lebron and Kevin and the others have to understand is how to get open so he can get them the ball. I think they'll figure that out as they move forward. But Lebron has got to be a bunch better than he was last night, and I'm not convinced it was just all about opening night jitters. I honestly believe he's lost too much weight and that's going to affect his ability to drive and score with contact. As I said above, he was more like a pinball than a wrecking ball last night when he tried to drive to the hole in traffic. It just wasn't the Lebron I've seen every other season of his career. Something was distinctly different last night and the weight issue is the only thing I can pin it on right now. But we'll see. Time always gives us the correct picture.

[kAzE]

I'll go on record right now and say that after tonight, my worries about what I was seeing from LeBron in preseason have been justified. He's not the same player with the weight off. There was no explosiveness. No strength. He basically fumbled the ball away on multiple occasions. Perhaps he proves me wrong quickly, but I think losing that weight took away the one thing he had on everyone else - a huge, muscular freight train of a man on a basketball court that couldn't be stopped once he set his mind on driving to the hole. He tried that over and over tonight and looked like a pinball instead of a wrecking ball. Not a great sign for the Cavs. Kyrie and Love were fine. I thought Kyrie was pretty darned good tonight and expect him to deliver similar numbers throughout the year, with assists going up as his teammates make more shots. He was very close on several poke away steals and I think he'll be good for couple of those on most nights.

But if LeBron doesn't pick it up then it will be long year in Cleveland. I expect he will play better, but I'm telling everyone that the weight loss was NOT beneficial to him.

Ehhh, I'm not buying it. At least not yet. Losing weight should have little to no effect on his jumper, and that just wasn't falling for him last night. It also should have no effect on his passing, which was equally bad. He doesn't lose the title of best player alive because of 1 bad game. It was a really overhyped and emotional game. (Did you see how many short film LeBron commercials there were? It was insane) He'll get back to dominating.

[Ichabod Drain]

Is there a chance the Thunder could miss the playoffs this year? With the possibility of Durant and Westbrook as well as other players being out for an extended period of time it's going to be a rough start to the season. The western conference is already extremely tough and they're off to an 0-2 start. They could be in a big hole by the time they're back at full strength.

It seems Lance will have an opportunity to get significant minutes for a while.

[CDu]

I appreciate the stats, CDU. And I basically agree concerning the first two points you raised. I think the sample size is still a bit small to judge the third point, but that's just me. I'm absolutely confident that Kyrie, now that he actually has guys to work with (although another spot up shooter ala Ray Allen would help), will have an excellent year. The guy was an NBA All-Star last year. Heck, he was the MVP of the All-Star game (say what you want about those games). And the same was true this summer with Team USA. So I'm looking only at the recent past when he's been playing with other very good players to base my predictions on.

Totally agree that it's a small sample for point #3. Unfortunately, that's really all the NBA information we have to go on so far in his career. The All-Star game (where nobody plays defense) and the FIBA games were against inferior competition. So neither of those really refute point 3.

But I'm certainly open to the possibility that he makes a huge jump this year. He may very well be the type of player who doesn't succeed without good/great teammates because he too easily reverts to "hero ball" when things don't go well. And with James and Love taking the roles of #1 and #2, he may no longer feel the pressure to carry the team. Though from the post-game comments in game 1, it sounds like he is still working on learning to play well with others and follow the gameplan, as it doesn't sound like he and Blatt were on the same page last night.


My biggest concern for the Cavs early on will be for them to learn to how to play with one another. Kyrie is about the best ankle-breaker in the NBA right now. He can't be stopped one on one when he wants to drive. Heck, he'll usually make two guys look bad when he really wants to go to the hole. What Lebron and Kevin and the others have to understand is how to get open so he can get them the ball. I think they'll figure that out as they move forward. But Lebron has got to be a bunch better than he was last night, and I'm not convinced it was just all about opening night jitters. I honestly believe he's lost too much weight and that's going to affect his ability to drive and score with contact. As I said above, he was more like a pinball than a wrecking ball last night when he tried to drive to the hole in traffic. It just wasn't the Lebron I've seen every other season of his career. Something was distinctly different last night and the weight issue is the only thing I can pin it on right now. But we'll see. Time always gives us the correct picture.

I think you may be overstating Irving's unstoppable-ness in this paragraph. But aside from that, I agree with this. Irving has been used to being the lead dog throughout his career. So has James. And Love has been used to the offense running through him in the post and on the perimeter (in pick and roll situations). Only James has had to coexist with another ball-dominant superstar before, and even then it wasn't long before said superstar (Wade) deferred to him. So that will be a constant question this season I think.

The other concern I have is that both Love and Irving have been BAD defensive players throughout their NBA careers. Will they be able to improve defensively enough to win a championship? They can likely outscore many teams in the league, but that won't work against the elite teams.

I don't (yet) share your concern about James. I'm going to need to see more than just the one bad game (albeit a TERRIBLE game) before I'm concerned about his weight loss. Let's see what happens tonight.

[tommy]

Totally agree that a season-ending injury to any of the Bulls' top-5 players would bury their chances. But aside from Rose, that has not happened. I am hardly more concerned about that than I would be a season-ending injury for the Cavs. Flukey injuries can happen to anyone.

I totally expect the East to be decided by Chicago and Cleveland. And I don't expect anyone else to be close.

If I was a Bulls fan, the guy I'd be worried about would be Gasol. He's missed significant time the last two seasons due to injury (playing in 60 games last year and only 49 the year before that) and has never been a particularly durable player. He's played in 66 or less games in seven of his 14 NBA seasons. Also, in the last two years, besides missing a lot of games, when he did play, his minutes and his shooting percentages have been close to if not the two lowest of his career. Now maybe with a better team around him, guys like Gibson to spell him, he'll be able to pace himself and be more effective over a longer period without getting hurt, but the guy is 34 years old and is in his 15th NBA season. Coach Thibs may want to consider limiting his minutes a la Popovich during the regular season in the hopes of having him relatively healthy and fresh for the playoffs.

[Billy Dat]

If I was a Bulls fan, the guy I'd be worried about would be Gasol. He's missed significant time the last two seasons due to injury (playing in 60 games last year and only 49 the year before that) and has never been a particularly durable player. He's played in 66 or less games in seven of his 14 NBA seasons. Also, in the last two years, besides missing a lot of games, when he did play, his minutes and his shooting percentages have been close to if not the two lowest of his career. Now maybe with a better team around him, guys like Gibson to spell him, he'll be able to pace himself and be more effective over a longer period without getting hurt, but the guy is 34 years old and is in his 15th NBA season. Coach Thibs may want to consider limiting his minutes a la Popovich during the regular season in the hopes of having him relatively healthy and fresh for the playoffs.

I think Pau is also a huge key for Chicago's offense to develop more versatility and fluidity (thank you, Clyde Frazier, for the loquation inspiration). But, one dude I forgot about was the acquisition of Aaron Brooks - he is a real problem to deal with off the bench (for other teams, I mean). All of a sudden, you've got a second five with Gibson, Brooks and McBuckets not to mention Mirotic. Big time.

[kAzE]

If I was a Bulls fan, the guy I'd be worried about would be Gasol. He's missed significant time the last two seasons due to injury (playing in 60 games last year and only 49 the year before that) and has never been a particularly durable player. He's played in 66 or less games in seven of his 14 NBA seasons. Also, in the last two years, besides missing a lot of games, when he did play, his minutes and his shooting percentages have been close to if not the two lowest of his career. Now maybe with a better team around him, guys like Gibson to spell him, he'll be able to pace himself and be more effective over a longer period without getting hurt, but the guy is 34 years old and is in his 15th NBA season. Coach Thibs may want to consider limiting his minutes a la Popovich during the regular season in the hopes of having him relatively healthy and fresh for the playoffs.

Gasol, Rose, and Noah are all injury risks. Jimmy Butler (who is currently dealing with a hand injury) has been near the top of the league in recent years in minutes (I believe he led the league in minutes last year), and is also a key player in Chicago's title hopes. The Bulls have Taj Gibson, though, who can step in if either of the starting bigs go down. The Cavs can ill afford an injury to any of their stars or big men. They don't have any big man depth, unless you consider Tristan Thompson, Shawn Marion, and Brendan Haywood above replacement level. I think Thompson and Marion are in the "just another guy" category, and Haywood in the "keep gettin' them checks" territory.

[CDu]

If I was a Bulls fan, the guy I'd be worried about would be Gasol. He's missed significant time the last two seasons due to injury (playing in 60 games last year and only 49 the year before that) and has never been a particularly durable player. He's played in 66 or less games in seven of his 14 NBA seasons. Also, in the last two years, besides missing a lot of games, when he did play, his minutes and his shooting percentages have been close to if not the two lowest of his career. Now maybe with a better team around him, guys like Gibson to spell him, he'll be able to pace himself and be more effective over a longer period without getting hurt, but the guy is 34 years old and is in his 15th NBA season. Coach Thibs may want to consider limiting his minutes a la Popovich during the regular season in the hopes of having him relatively healthy and fresh for the playoffs.

Gasol is definitely a risk to miss some games this year. However, my concern isn't whether he misses some games, but whether he is available at season's end. And barring a fluke, I'd expect him to be there for the playoffs. I do hope that, given the depth in the frontcourt with Noah, Gibson, and Mirotic (and Mohammed and Bairstow if absolutely necessary), Gasol will stay healthy enough for the playoffs.


I think Pau is also a huge key for Chicago's offense to develop more versatility and fluidity (thank you, Clyde Frazier, for the loquation inspiration). But, one dude I forgot about was the acquisition of Aaron Brooks - he is a real problem to deal with off the bench (for other teams, I mean). All of a sudden, you've got a second five with Gibson, Brooks and McBuckets not to mention Mirotic. Big time.

The Bulls quietly completely revamped their offense. The obvious addition was Derrick Rose, who replaces the scrappy yet now offensively useless Kirk Hinrich. That change alone revitalizes the team dramatically on offense. But then, as you mention, the Bulls got a dynamic post scorer/playmaker in Gasol. He, Noah, and Gibson each give the Bulls a different type of value on offense, and I think he's a perfect complement to those two elite defenders. And you hit on the quietest yet possibly cleverest addition in Brooks. He's a CLASSIC Thibs backup PG. I am beginning to think that Thibs is the backup PG whisperer. He likes his backup PG to be able to score on their own, so that the offense can run like it does with Rose. That's what he did with John Lucas III, Nate Robinson, DJ Augustin, and now Brooks. So what was once an atrocious offense now has the potential to be really versatile and good.


Gasol, Rose, and Noah are all injury risks. Jimmy Butler (who is currently dealing with a hand injury) has been near the top of the league in recent years in minutes (I believe he led the league in minutes last year), and is also a key player in Chicago's title hopes. The Bulls have Taj Gibson, though, who can step in if either of the starting bigs go down. The Cavs can ill afford an injury to any of their stars or big men. They don't have any big man depth, unless you consider Tristan Thompson, Shawn Marion, and Brendan Haywood above replacement level. I think Thompson and Marion are in the "just another guy" category, and Haywood in the "keep gettin' them checks" territory.

I would say that the biggest injury "risk" is Noah. He's playing with a potentially bad knee. It remains to be seen how healthy he'll be. I don't think Gasol and Rose are any greater season-ending injury risks than any other big man or PG. Rose's two previous injuries (to separate knees) were flukey injuries. He's now healthy and he has presumably rehabbed with the specific goal of NOT having another knee injury, so I'd be surprised if he suffered another major knee injury. It could happen, but It could happen to anybody who plays an explosive style of game (James and Irving are just as risky in my opinion).

I would agree that the Bulls need Rose, Noah, Butler, Gibson, and Gasol healthy come playoff time.

Conversely, I'd say the Cavs need James, Love, Irving, Waiters, and Varejao healthy (unless they add another SG/SF - right now Miller/Marion/Jones seem like they may be replacement level on the perimeter).

[elvis14]

One thing that's interesting about Kyrie is that he's only 22 years old (at least I think that's his age). As good as he is, he still has time to improve in just about every area of the game. I think that playing with James and Love and playing on a winning team will help him grow more quickly than the past several years. When he hits his prime in a few years he's going to be a handful (like he isn't already).

Later this year, there's going to be a team that I will feel bad for....whoever has to play OKC in the first round of the playoffs. With Durant and Westbrook out for a while, the Thunder are going to lose lots of games for the next couple of weeks. Then they will start to get healthy and start to get better. By seasons end, assuming they don't have any other significant injuries, the Thunder will start hitting their stride. Durant and Westbrook will not have the wear and tear of a full NBA season. Because of the injuries they are going to be seeded lower than they should be and some team that had a pretty good season and earned a 2 or 3 seed is going to end up having to face the Thunder in the first round.

[_Gary]

One thing that's interesting about Kyrie is that he's only 22 years old (at least I think that's his age). As good as he is, he still has time to improve in just about every area of the game. I think that playing with James and Love and playing on a winning team will help him grow more quickly than the past several years. When he hits his prime in a few years he's going to be a handful (like he isn't already).

Agreed. Kyrie's NBA career, until now, has been about him being surrounded by less than stellar talent. He'll definitely get better and better as he plays with LeBron and Kevin. I'm not sure if the Cavs, as they are currently constructed, will have quite enough to get past a veteran Bulls team in the playoffs. It still feels to me like they need one more legit big man and another sharp-shooter (Ray Allen, come on down!). I'm not convinced that what they have right now, even if the starters gel quickly, is enough to win a Conference Championship, much less an NBA title.

[kAzE]

Noah/Gasol is going to be the best passing big man tandem in the league. That team doesn't even need a real point guard. They could probably run their entire offense through the post if they wanted. The addition of Rose gives them a ton of options in the halfcourt. They will be tough to stop . . . I think they could be on par with Cleveland on offense, and way better on defense. They are definitely a better team right now, the Cavs are a work in progress.

[sagegrouse]

Agreed. Kyrie's NBA career, until now, has been about him being surrounded by less than stellar talent. He'll definitely get better and better as he plays with LeBron and Kevin. I'm not sure if the Cavs, as they are currently constructed, will have quite enough to get past a veteran Bulls team in the playoffs. It still feels to me like they need one more legit big man and another sharp-shooter (Ray Allen, come on down!). I'm not convinced that what they have right now, even if the starters gel quickly, is enough to win a Conference Championship, much less an NBA title.


Noah/Gasol is going to be the best passing big man tandem in the league. That team doesn't even need a real point guard. They could probably run their entire offense through the post if they wanted. The addition of Rose gives them a ton of options in the halfcourt. They will be tough to stop . . . I think they could be on par with Cleveland on offense, and way better on defense. They are definitely a better team right now, the Cavs are a work in progress.

The side of the road is littered with the bodies of those who have denigrated Kyrie this year -- his all-star selection as an "Uncle Drew" sympathy vote and his World Cup role as a Coach K favorite. Let's hope he continues to show people what he can do.

[kAzE]

The side of the road is littered with the bodies of those who have denigrated Kyrie this year -- his all-star selection as an "Uncle Drew" sympathy vote and his World Cup role as a Coach K favorite. Let's hope he continues to show people what he can do.

Whoa, what? Kyrie's my favorite basketball player, and I'm a Cavs fan. I've always thought of Kyrie as a top 10-15 talent in the NBA. The Bulls are one of the best, if not THE best defensive teams in the NBA, so the very real fact that they are better defensively than the Cavs should surprise no one.

Although still, the Cavs' defense is a legitimate concern. Kyrie's never been a great defensive player, although he could easily become one if he really tried. I think he will be better this year with LeBron mentoring him. It doesn't alleviate the fact that they just have no one to defend the rim, and are not yet a cohesive unit defensively.

Case study:

The Cavs allowed the Knicks' "triangle offense" to score 95 points:

http://i.imgur.com/19qnJOq.jpg

[subzero02]

That's really good...

[CDu]

We have found a clearly worse defensive PG than Irving! His name is Aaron Brooks. Cleveland's sub pattern resulted in a 5 minute stretch with Irving on Brooks, and Irving lit him up on three straight possessions. That's the downside of the Bulls' backup PG: they seem to always play no defense.

[CDu]

Also, nice bounceback game so far for James, and kudos to the Cavs bench for outplaying the Bulls bench.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Kudos to CDu for being calm and calling the game. I would be screaming at the tv like a Duke game if I were in his shoes. Meaningless game, but passionate regardless.

[CDu]

Kudos to CDu for being calm and calling the game. I would be screaming at the tv like a Duke game if I were in his shoes. Meaningless game, but passionate regardless.

Oh there is definitely frustration, but I have to remind myself that it is regular season, the Bulls have Rose on a minutes limit still, and there is no Butler. So it is deep breaths and analysis for the future.

[flyingdutchdevil]

CDu - legit question: on a scale of 1 to 10, how much do Tristan Thompson and Taj Gibson like dunking? (1 is Greg Paulus and 10 is Mason Plumlee). I go 9 and 13,5, respectively.

[ice-9]

Really. Irving's career averages for ORtg and DRtg are 109 (ORtg) and 110 (DRtg). That indicates that Irving is a well-above average offensive player and a well-below average defensive player on average.

But here are his numbers against the six best teams over the past several years:
Miami (7 games): 98 ORtg, 114 DRtg
Chicago (7 games): 100 ORtg, 122 DRtg
LA Clippers (3 games): 100 ORtg, 101 DRtg
Indiana (7 games): 95 ORtg, 105 DRtg
OKC (4 games): 125 ORtg, 108 DRtg
San Antonio (5 games): 88 ORtg, 122 DRtg

Average (33 games): 99.7 ORtg, 113.1 DRtg

Aside from playing very well offensively against OKC, he's been pretty consistently below-average-to-terrible offensively and below-average-to-terrible defensively against the league's best teams.

I'd say that, coming into this season, the three biggest knocks on Irving have been as follows:
1. Very bad defense
2. Doesn't make his teammates better/doesn't lead his team to wins
3. Doesn't play well against the league's best

These next couple of years are big for him and a huge chance to change that narrative. Hopefully for him he can make that jump.


I wonder if most players in general post worse stats against better teams. In fact, I'd expect that to be true on average. So, while stats are interesting, they do need context.

However, I agree he's bad defensively and can't single handedly lead his teams to wins. Many great players couldn't do that, e.g. Tracy McGrady.

But you said "Irving has a bit of a reputation for killing weaker PG and struggling against the better PG."

That's the kind of thing I'd expect to read from ESPN or hear commentators talk about, like LeBron choking in big games or Dwight being moody or Kobe being mean to teammates or Kyrie and Waiters having locker room issues. "Reputation" to me means it being part of the sports narrative.

Granted I'm not glued to the TV or read every sports article, but "Irving ... killing weaker PG and struggling against the better PG" is the first time I've heard of it. On a Duke forum no less, which is unfortunate.

[CDu]

Looks like Cleveland will get the win. But as a Bulls fan, I am pretty satisfied. Missing Butler and with Rose out in the second half with a rolled ankle, and the Bulls were up 5 with 47 seconds left. It took a couple of brain farts to allow Cleveland to get it to OT. The loss stinks, but ultimately it is irrelevant long-term. It is the process that matters right now.

My thoughts:
- can't expect 12 offensive rebounds from Thompson but that was the difference
- I think LeBron still has something left in the tank
- Irving did little to shake the bumslayer label tonight. 6-17 from the field (with most of those coming against the 3rd string PG), 3 assists and 4 turnovers. He did get the game-tying points to salvage what had been a horrid 4th quarter for him
- Rose and Gibson both rolled their ankles. Hope those heal quickly
- Rough shooting night for Love and Gasol, but each produced elsewhere: Love with a ton of boards and Gasol with 6 blocks
- Rose looked good. 20 points, 4 assists, 4 rebounds to just 2 turnovers in just 25 minutes. As in the preseason, he was able to get to the rim with ease. Hopefully the rolled ankle doesn't make him miss tomorrow's game
- some interesting early-season matchup shuffling: Blatt put James on Rose to hide Irving and (when Rose was out) Thibs finally switched Hinrich onto Irving to hide Brooks
- Blatt appears to come from the Coach K school of minutes distribution

Should be fun to watch these teams battle this season and hopefully in the playoffs

[Duvall]

Looks like Cleveland will get the win. But as a Bulls fan, I am pretty satisfied. Missing Butler and with Rose out in the second half with a rolled ankle, and the Bulls were up 5 with 47 seconds left. It took a couple of brain farts to allow Cleveland to get it to OT. The loss stinks, but ultimately it is irrelevant long-term. It is the process that matters right now.

My thoughts:
- can't expect 12 offensive rebounds from Thompson but that was the difference
- I think LeBron still has something left in the tank
- Irving did little to shake the bumslayer label tonight. 6-17 from the field (with most of those coming against the 3rd string PG), 3 assists and 4 turnovers. He did get the game-tying points to salvage what had been a horrid 4th quarter for him
- Rose and Gibson both rolled their ankles. Hope those heal quickly
- Rough shooting night for Love and Gasol, but each produced elsewhere: Love with a ton of boards and Gasol with 6 blocks
- Rose looked good. 20 points, 4 assists, 4 rebounds to just 2 turnovers in just 25 minutes. As in the preseason, he was able to get to the rim with ease. Hopefully the rolled ankle doesn't make him miss tomorrow's game
- some interesting early-season matchup shuffling: Blatt put James on Rose to hide Irving and (when Rose was out) Thibs finally switched Hinrich onto Irving to hide Brooks
- Blatt appears to come from the Coach K school of minutes distribution

Should be fun to watch these teams battle this season and hopefully in the playoffs

Pretty ungenerous to say that Blatt put James on Rose to "hide Kyrie" when it's a proven way to make Rose disappear.

[CDu]

I wonder if most players in general post worse stats against better teams. In fact, I'd expect that to be true on average. So, while stats are interesting, they do need context.

However, I agree he's bad defensively and can't single handedly lead his teams to wins. Many great players couldn't do that, e.g. Tracy McGrady.

But you said "Irving has a bit of a reputation for killing weaker PG and struggling against the better PG."

That's the kind of thing I'd expect to read from ESPN or hear commentators talk about, like LeBron choking in big games or Dwight being moody or Kobe being mean to teammates or Kyrie and Waiters having locker room issues. "Reputation" to me means it being part of the sports narrative.

Granted I'm not glued to the TV or read every sports article, but "Irving ... killing weaker PG and struggling against the better PG" is the first time I've heard of it. On a Duke forum no less, which is unfortunate.

Irving has been slightly below average (ORtg under 100) against the best teams (as he was again tonight). I would certainly expect him to play worse against the best. But below average? If he was at like 105 ORtg against the best teams and 112 against everyone else it eould be different. But stars shouldn't be posting ORtg consistently below 100 against good teams.

And one of the things I like about DBR is that it isn't a place of blind homerism like IC. I am a Duke fan, but I will call it like I see it. Sometimes that means saying not great things about former Duke players. I hate it when that happens, but I won't shy from it. Duke players shouldn't be immune to criticism.

[CDu]

Pretty ungenerous to say that Blatt put James on Rose to "hide Kyrie" when it's a proven way to make Rose disappear.

Well, it is a little of both. Rose was torching Irving, so Blatt went to a guy with a history of stopping Rose. Your statement and mine aren't mutually exclusive.

Also, I am a Bulls fan. Not sure why I need to be overly generous to the opposition in an NBA thread. :)

[Newton_14]

I'll go on record right now and say that after tonight, my worries about what I was seeing from LeBron in preseason have been justified. He's not the same player with the weight off. There was no explosiveness. No strength. He basically fumbled the ball away on multiple occasions. Perhaps he proves me wrong quickly, but I think losing that weight took away the one thing he had on everyone else - a huge, muscular freight train of a man on a basketball court that couldn't be stopped once he set his mind on driving to the hole. He tried that over and over tonight and looked like a pinball instead of a wrecking ball. Not a great sign for the Cavs. Kyrie and Love were fine. I thought Kyrie was pretty darned good tonight and expect him to deliver similar numbers throughout the year, with assists going up as his teammates make more shots. He was very close on several poke away steals and I think he'll be good for couple of those on most nights.

But if LeBron doesn't pick it up then it will be long year in Cleveland. I expect he will play better, but I'm telling everyone that the weight loss was NOT beneficial to him.

Have to disagree Gary. Multiple reports that Lebron was absolutely exhausted last night before they ever tipped. Even though he played mostly below the rim tonight, he played great. It will take a few games for him to get his legs under him but Lebron's explosiveness or conditioning is the least of my worries. He's fine.

I worry more about how Kevin Love looks. Not starting rumors but he looks a little too much like Dustin Johnson at the moment. ;) I kid.. mostly..

Great game tonight. (sorry CDu, you guys blew it at the end of regulation). Very interesting 5 man squad that Cleveland rolled with throughout the end of the 4th qtr and OT. Especially in the backcourt. I would bet Waiters is highly upset. It worked though... but likely would not had Rose been on the floor.

Was pulling for Cleveland but our guy Dunleavy got totally hosed on like 3 calls in a row. Two phantom foul calls on him, then Lebron pushes him in the back on a layup attempt right in front of the ref and no call. Crazy.

Big win for Cleveland. SOrry to see Rose go down with the ankle injury. Hope it was nothing.

[Newton_14]

Gasol, Rose, and Noah are all injury risks. Jimmy Butler (who is currently dealing with a hand injury) has been near the top of the league in recent years in minutes (I believe he led the league in minutes last year), and is also a key player in Chicago's title hopes. The Bulls have Taj Gibson, though, who can step in if either of the starting bigs go down. The Cavs can ill afford an injury to any of their stars or big men. They don't have any big man depth, unless you consider Tristan Thompson, Shawn Marion, and Brendan Haywood above replacement level. I think Thompson and Marion are in the "just another guy" category, and Haywood in the "keep gettin' them checks" territory.
Well Thompson certainly looked a lot better tonight that some scrub replacement level player. That kid has talent and it looks like he is going to flourish with this new group of players. They are thin yes, but Thompson will be a solid rotation player for them all year. Not sure what Marion has left in the tank and Haywood is just drawing a check to bang in practice.

[ice-9]

Irving has been slightly below average (ORtg under 100) against the best teams (as he was again tonight). I would certainly expect him to play worse against the best. But below average? If he was at like 105 ORtg against the best teams and 112 against everyone else it eould be different. But stars shouldn't be posting ORtg consistently below 100 against good teams.

And one of the things I like about DBR is that it isn't a place of blind homerism like IC. I am a Duke fan, but I will call it like I see it. Sometimes that means saying not great things about former Duke players. I hate it when that happens, but I won't shy from it. Duke players shouldn't be immune to criticism.

If you think Kyrie kills bad PGs and gets killed by good PGs, that's fine, just say it.

But you didn't, you said he has a reputation. Oh yeah? Where did you get that from? It's not just your opinion, you're saying it's an opinion shared by the public at large, so it'd be nice to see something backing that up.

Or if you're trying to start a reputation for Kyrie then, hey, I guess that's fine too, but personally I'd rather see it happen at IC than here on DBR.

[ice-9]

I am a Bulls fan. Not sure why I need to be overly generous to the opposition in an NBA thread. :)

"But I will call it like I see it. Sometimes that means saying not great things about former Duke players. I hate it when that happens, but I won't shy from it. Duke players shouldn't be immune to criticism."

Replace Duke with Bulls, thanks.

[CDu]

If you think Kyrie kills bad PGs and gets killed by good PGs, that's fine, just say it.

But you didn't, you said he has a reputation. Oh yeah? Where did you get that from? It's not just your opinion, you're saying it's an opinion shared by the public at large, so it'd be nice to see something backing that up.

Or if you're trying to start a reputation for Kyrie then, hey, I guess that's fine too, but personally I'd rather see it happen at IC than here on DBR.

Not trying to start a reputation. Just reiterating what I have heard from a non-Duke message board and what is backed up by the stats. Irving clearly does not have this reputation on Duke boards, but go to a Bulls board (who follow his performance much more closely than many on the board do) and it is a common viewpoint.

And the stats back it up. Don't blame me. When Irving starts playing solidly against the Bulls and the elite, that reputation will die down.

[CDu]

"But I will call it like I see it. Sometimes that means saying not great things about former Duke players. I hate it when that happens, but I won't shy from it. Duke players shouldn't be immune to criticism."

Replace Duke with Bulls, thanks.

Huh? Irving has never been a Bull. So I am not sure I get your point.

Also, I am more than happy to criticize Bulls players (former and current). I am also more than happy to criticize and praise former and current Duke players too. I do so on a regular basis in other threads. But this happens to be an NBA thread, not a Duke-specific thread. And as a Bulls fan I am discussing the NBA topics most relevant to me at the moment (Rose's recovery, Bulls ' and Cavs' chances, Bulls v Cavs game, strengths/weaknesses of specific players on those two teams).

I don't interject Bulls/NBA stuff into other threads. But this is specifically an NBA thread.

Others have been effusive in their praise of Irving. I am just pointing out what I have heard and observed outside the walls of DBR.

Want to talk other former Dukies? Happy to do so. Loving Redick's development into a real weapon for the Clips. Excited for Parker 's future. Deng is one of the classiest players in the league, a great team player and a true professional. Hoping the Plumlee brothers continue to emerge at the NBA level. Rivers has unfortunately stunk in the NBA, but hopefully this year he begins to find his way. And so on.

Irving is an amazing offensive talent. But if you go read on him in NBA boards that follow his games more closely, the term bumslayer has been used frequently. Hopefully he starts having success to disprove that label (and I am certainly open to that possibility). But again, that is what I have read about him and the stats to date unfortunately back the theory up.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

Huh? Irving has never been a Bull. So I am not sure I get your point.

Also, I am more than happy to criticize Bulls players (former and current). I am also more than happy to criticize and praise former and current Duke players too. I do so on a regular basis in other threads. But this happens to be an NBA thread, not a Duke-specific thread. And as a Bulls fan I am discussing the NBA topics most relevant to me at the moment (Rose's recovery, Bulls ' and Cavs' chances, Bulls v Cavs game, strengths/weaknesses of specific players on those two teams).

I don't interject Bulls/NBA stuff into other threads. But this is specifically an NBA thread.


It amazes me to watch Mike Dunleavy at his advanced age guard Melo and Lebron on consecutive nights. I know he wasn't on them exclusively and he only guarded Lebron on switch offs but still. He is just an all around good basketball player. Nothing new here but I just thought I would point it out. Watching him and Heinrich (sp?) down the stretch last night brought back some memories. Good win for the Cavs but I think a good loss for the Bulls as well.

Other Duke news, JJ is struggling with his shot, however every game he has come up with a big play at the end to seal the victory. Hit a big three 2 nights ago and finished the game off with some clutch free throws last night. The announcer said of Reddick, "and they fouled the wrong guy there, he doesn't miss in a calendar year" I love it.

As far as Boozer goes he had his typical game not really a part of the offense in LA but he has his role, still no sign of Ryan he didn't dress due to his injury.

Jabari had a solid double double last night

and on a personal Heat note, Andre Dawkins is officially on the Roster and playable in NBA2k15...just saying for those who play and like to create an All Duke squad.

[BobbyFan]

Case study:

The Cavs allowed the Knicks' "triangle offense" to score 95 points:

http://i.imgur.com/19qnJOq.jpg

I realize the pic is intended to be facetious, but that is part of the triangle offense. Weak side isolation is an option - one that was used many times by Jordan and Kobe. I cringed during TNT's broadcast of the game, listening to Barkley and Miller ripping on something they clearly have little clue about.

[_Gary]

Well, it is a little of both. Rose was torching Irving, so Blatt went to a guy with a history of stopping Rose.

We will agree to disagree about whether or not Rose was "torching" Irving. I certainly didn't see it that way. Here's the deal: Rose is a physical guard and he uses his physicality (and explosiveness) to regularly get to the rim. But I didn't see him torching Kyrie at all. He just did what he always does, against pretty much everyone when he's healthy. It's what makes him who he is, because he certainly didn't earn the reputation of being a great guard based on his outside shot. So to act like there was some over-the-top domination of Rose on Irving last night is highly exaggerated, imho. And on defense, Rose loves to body a guy after they've either gained a step or he sees they are ready to go up for a shot. He did this to Kyrie multiple times last night when Irving was in the process of shooting. And it clearly threw him off on a few shots. I'm not saying Rose should be whistled for all those little nudges, but he definitely engages in it. It's who he is and it's a part of his defense. And I'll be the first to admit it bothers Kyrie when he's in the process of shooting or putting the ball on the court for a blow by (although I imagine that's true of just about everyone).

The only real gripe (if it can be called that) that I have is with the continued use of the pejorative, "bumslayer", on this board to describe one of our own. That's just over the top, imho. I don't give a flying rip how other boards describe our players, but I do take offense at those same words being used on this board by a fellow Duke fan. Just flat out doesn't sit right with me. Criticize him all you want. But can't you use a less derogatory word to do it?

[CDu]

We will agree to disagree about whether or not Rose was "torching" Irving. I certainly didn't see it that way. Here's the deal: Rose is a physical guard and he uses his physicality (and explosiveness) to regularly get to the rim. But I didn't see him torching Kyrie at all. He just did what he always does, against pretty much everyone when he's healthy. It's what makes him who he is, because he certainly didn't earn the reputation of being a great guard based on his outside shot. So to act like there was some over-the-top domination of Rose on Irving last night is highly exaggerated, imho. And on defense, Rose loves to body a guy after they've either gained a step or he sees they are ready to go up for a shot. He did this to Kyrie multiple times last night when Irving was in the process of shooting. And it clearly threw him off on a few shots. I'm not saying Rose should be whistled for all those little nudges, but he definitely engages in it. It's who he is and it's a part of his defense. And I'll be the first to admit it bothers Kyrie when he's in the process of shooting or putting the ball on the court for a blow by (although I imagine that's true of just about everyone).

The only real gripe (if it can be called that) that I have is with the continued use of the pejorative, "bumslayer", on this board to describe one of our own. That's just over the top, imho. I don't give a flying rip how other boards describe our players, but I do take offense at those same words being used on this board by a fellow Duke fan. Just flat out doesn't sit right with me. Criticize him all you want. But can't you use a less derogatory word to do it?

Okay, replace "torching" with "winning the matchup on offense to the degree that Blatt needed to find another option defensively."

I completely agree with your description of Rose's game. He is about as tough a physical matchup as there is at PG,and he is relentless in his attacking the rim. He is in a way kind of like the Shaq of PGs - not the most versatile, but good luck stopping what he does well. Defensively he loves to use his body strength to his advantage. The rules allow for body contact but not hand contact, so Rose takes advantage of that. Irving is gonna need to adapt.

And I didn't realize "bumslayer" was such a huge pejorative. If there is a less offensive term for a player who dominates lesser opponents but struggles against the good foes, I will be happy to use that.

[Des Esseintes]

We will agree to disagree about whether or not Rose was "torching" Irving. I certainly didn't see it that way. Here's the deal: Rose is a physical guard and he uses his physicality (and explosiveness) to regularly get to the rim. But I didn't see him torching Kyrie at all. He just did what he always does, against pretty much everyone when he's healthy. It's what makes him who he is, because he certainly didn't earn the reputation of being a great guard based on his outside shot. So to act like there was some over-the-top domination of Rose on Irving last night is highly exaggerated, imho. And on defense, Rose loves to body a guy after they've either gained a step or he sees they are ready to go up for a shot. He did this to Kyrie multiple times last night when Irving was in the process of shooting. And it clearly threw him off on a few shots. I'm not saying Rose should be whistled for all those little nudges, but he definitely engages in it. It's who he is and it's a part of his defense. And I'll be the first to admit it bothers Kyrie when he's in the process of shooting or putting the ball on the court for a blow by (although I imagine that's true of just about everyone).

The only real gripe (if it can be called that) that I have is with the continued use of the pejorative, "bumslayer", on this board to describe one of our own. That's just over the top, imho. I don't give a flying rip how other boards describe our players, but I do take offense at those same words being used on this board by a fellow Duke fan. Just flat out doesn't sit right with me. Criticize him all you want. But can't you use a less derogatory word to do it?

What's the problem with "bumslayer"? CDu is quite obviously not calling Kyrie himself a bum; the term describes a strong player who gets his numbers destroying bum opponents. It's not a compliment, but I fail to see what is so bad there.

[_Gary]

What's the problem with "bumslayer"? CDu is quite obviously not calling Kyrie himself a bum; the term describes a strong player who gets his numbers destroying bum opponents. It's not a compliment, but I fail to see what is so bad there.

If it's not self-evident as to why a Duke fan might take offense to it, then there's no need explaining further.

Oh, what the heck, I'll explain further. :p What the term is stating outright (not just implying) is that player X isn't really as good as we think he is. He's only good against "bums", but not against the elite. If that's not a pejorative to describe an All-Star Duke player - on a Duke board - then I don't know what is. Surely another term could be used.


CDU, thanks for the reasoned reply. I imagine we will have many back-and-forths as this season progresses. And I think that will be fun and enjoyable. I agree with pretty much everything you said about Rose, and that Irving (who's only 22) will have to adjust when playing him. He's got plenty of time to do that. Again, he's just now hitting the age, physically and emotionally, that most NBA players arrive in the league at.

Peace, brother. :D

[CDu]

If it's not self-evident as to why a Duke fan might take offense to it, then there's no need explaining further.

Oh, what the heck, I'll explain further. :p What the term is stating outright (not just implying) is that player X isn't really as good as we think he is. He's only good against "bums", but not against the elite. If that's not a pejorative to describe an All-Star Duke player - on a Duke board - then I don't know what is. Surely another term could be used.


CDU, thanks for the reasoned reply. I imagine we will have many back-and-forths as this season progresses. And I think that will be fun and enjoyable. I agree with pretty much everything you said about Rose, and that Irving (who's only 22) will have to adjust when playing him. He's got plenty of time to do that. Again, he's just now hitting the age, physically and emotionally, that most NBA players arrive in the league at.

Peace, brother. :D

Yeah, I too expect this debate to continue. :) I certainly don't think that Irving is a finished product. We only disagree on the "where is Irving right now." I absolutely think Irving has the potential to become among the two PG in the league (if not the best). I just don't think he is there quite yet (which is fine - as you say he is really young), and his play against the best is why I don't think he is there just yet.

Maybe James and Love will help Irving get there this year (or if not this year, maybe next). As a Bulls fan and Duke fan, I hope he makes the jump but his Cavs fall short to my guys. It will be fun to watch his progress for sure.

Thanks as well for the reasonable debate. One of my favorite things about this board is that disagreement can remain civil and reasonable and without insults and this discussion is I think evidence of that.

[_Gary]

Yeah, I too expect this debate to continue. :) I certainly don't think that Irving is a finished product. We only disagree on the "where is Irving right now." I absolutely think Irving has the potential to become among the two PG in the league (if not the best). I just don't think he is there quite yet (which is fine - as you say he is really young), and his play against the best is why I don't think he is there just yet.

Maybe James and Love will help Irving get there this year (or if not this year, maybe next). As a Bulls fan and Duke fan, I hope he makes the jump but his Cavs fall short to my guys. It will be fun to watch his progress for sure.

Thanks as well for the reasonable debate. One of my favorite things about this board is that disagreement can remain civil and reasonable and without insults and this discussion is I think evidence of that.

Agree on everything you wrote, with the one exception being where Kyrie is at. I've never said he's the best in the League. In my opinion that's still Chris Paul. He's the ultimate PG in my book. But I'm also not going to put all the other young PGs in the league ahead of Kyrie. He's somewhere in the mix of the Top 5 for sure in my book. No way he's outside that grouping, imho. I won't argue that's he absolutely, beyond any doubt, #2. Can't do that, even though I think that's where he will be sooner rather than later. But I also don't think he's clearly behind ALL the other guys (Rose, Westbrook, Wall, Curry, Rondo, Williams, Parker and Lillard). That would make him no better than #10 right now, and I think he's much higher than that.

[CDu]

Agree on everything you wrote, with the one exception being where Kyrie is at. I've never said he's the best in the League. In my opinion that's still Chris Paul. He's the ultimate PG in my book. But I'm also not going to put all the other young PGs in the league ahead of Kyrie. He's somewhere in the mix of the Top 5 for sure in my book. No way he's outside that grouping, imho. I won't argue that's he absolutely, beyond any doubt, #2. Can't do that, even though I think that's where he will be sooner rather than later. But I also don't think he's clearly behind ALL the other guys (Rose, Westbrook, Wall, Curry, Rondo, Williams, Parker and Lillard). That would make him no better than #10 right now, and I think he's much higher than that.

I was just going by one of your earlier posts where I think you said you thought he was the 2nd best behind Paul. Right now, I would put Parker, Rose, Westbrook, and Curry ahead of Irving. I would put Irving in a group with Lillard, Wall, and Rondo in the second 5 of PG. Still really good, just not quite yet on the level of the top guys.

Within a few years, Parker and Rondo (and maybe Paul too) will drop off and I expect some of those young guys to push Rose, Westbrook, and Curry (who will still be in their primes). If Irving grows as a player, he could certainly make the jump to #1 or #2.

[_Gary]

I was just going by one of your earlier posts where I think you said you thought he was the 2nd best behind Paul. Right now, I would put Parker, Rose, Westbrook, and Curry ahead of Irving. I would put Irving in a group with Lillard, Wall, and Rondo in the second 5 of PG. Still really good, just not quite yet on the level of the top guys.

Within a few years, Parker and Rondo (and maybe Paul too) will drop off and I expect some of those young guys to push Rose, Westbrook, and Curry (who will still be in their primes). If Irving grows as a player, he could certainly make the jump to #1 or #2.

As a young guy with loads of time left in his future (knock on wood), I do think Kyrie is the 2nd best. The only guys I think are definitively ahead of Kyrie are Paul and Parker (the second because of his championship pedigree). But Parker is closing in on the end of his career so I gave Kyrie the nod on the basis of age attrition. But at this very moment I do think those two are clearly better. Rose, Westbrook and Curry *might* be better than Kyrie, but I'm not willing to concede that as a matter of absolute fact. This is where we obviously differ.

[Billy Dat]

I have enjoyed the Kyrie debate. I personally think that the "next level" award for him is to make an All NBA team. All Star game starters are voted in by the fans and All Star game MVPs are kind of like winning the Masters Par 3 competition. With the quantity of amazing PGs in the NBA, making an All NBA team would be a big deal for him.

[_Gary]

I have enjoyed the Kyrie debate. I personally think that the "next level" award for him is to make an All NBA team. All Star game starters are voted in by the fans and All Star game MVPs are kind of like winning the Masters Par 3 competition. With the quantity of amazing PGs in the NBA, making an All NBA team would be a big deal for him.

Good point. I concur. It would definitely be an indicator of where he's at in comparison to some of the other great PGs in the league right now.

[subzero02]

This article discusses how some of the advanced statistical and video analysis is being integrated into the NBA arena experience.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2014/11/02/360943860/new-players-in-the-nba-big-data-user-controlled-jumbotrons

[ice-9]

If there is a less offensive term for a player who dominates lesser opponents but struggles against the good foes, I will be happy to use that.

Normal? How is doing worse against great defensive teams and doing well against bad ones unusual?

Gary pointed out the issue -- your negativity towards Kyrie is a little too gleeful for my taste. Bumslayer? Really? Are we going to make back-handed nicknames the norm for our players?

What's the issue really? Is it the fact that Kyrie was the chosen PG over Rose in the World Cup? Is there some kind of Bulls jealousy going on?

If so, it'd be great to keep it outside of DBR.

[Des Esseintes]

Normal? How is doing worse against great defensive teams and doing well against bad ones unusual?

Gary pointed out the issue -- your negativity towards Kyrie is a little too gleeful for my taste. Bumslayer? Really? Are we going to make back-handed nicknames the norm for our players?

What's the issue really? Is it the fact that Kyrie was the chosen PG over Rose in the World Cup? Is there some kind of Bulls jealousy going on?

If so, it'd be great to keep it outside of DBR.

This is ridiculous. Everywhere beyond the confines of this board, Kyrie's 2013-14 was seen as a disappointment. Everywhere. His progress stalled on multiple fronts, in some places he appeared to regress, and indeed it was difficult to find places where he took steps forward, unless you count All-Star game scoring. That whole season happened, m'kay. Irving then had a sterling run with the international team for the World Cup, for which he deserves immense credit. But honestly, if you think Irving doesn't yet have major questions to answer in his career, then you aren't watching with anything approaching objectivity. Point guard is the most stacked position in the NBA right now. It's tremendously competitive, and Irving has not separated himself from a pack of other wonderful young pgs, some of whom have had more team success, some of whom distribute the ball better, some of whom have not had fistfights with teammates, some of whom--ahem--have played better against elite competition, and almost all of whom enjoy better defensive reputations. I think everyone here is cheering for Kyrie. I know I am. And I further believe he still has a wonderful chance to realize all the promise of his immense gifts. Please, though, let's not disrespect the rest of a very talented league with cheap homerism. Irving, like many young players, has a lot to prove, and it's no slur on him to discuss what remains to be proven on this, a board dedicated to reasoned basketball discussion.

[Duke79UNLV77]

All-Star. Irving then had a sterling run with the international team for the World Cup, for which he deserves immense credit. Point guard is the most stacked position in the NBA right now. It's tremendously competitive

I think somewhere within your post, you buried the headline, which I've highlighted above. In the most stacked position in the NBA, Kyrie has quickly become an All-Star. He's also been quite a 4th quarter scorer. This is his first year to play with other worthy talent. Let's see how it goes. Will he become an iconic talent on an NBA champion, or will he remain just an imperfect All-Star at a stacked position? Either way, I think he's done great.

[ice-9]

This is ridiculous. Everywhere beyond the confines of this board, Kyrie's 2013-14 was seen as a disappointment. Everywhere. His progress stalled on multiple fronts, in some places he appeared to regress, and indeed it was difficult to find places where he took steps forward, unless you count All-Star game scoring. That whole season happened, m'kay. Irving then had a sterling run with the international team for the World Cup, for which he deserves immense credit. But honestly, if you think Irving doesn't yet have major questions to answer in his career, then you aren't watching with anything approaching objectivity. Point guard is the most stacked position in the NBA right now. It's tremendously competitive, and Irving has not separated himself from a pack of other wonderful young pgs, some of whom have had more team success, some of whom distribute the ball better, some of whom have not had fistfights with teammates, some of whom--ahem--have played better against elite competition, and almost all of whom enjoy better defensive reputations. I think everyone here is cheering for Kyrie. I know I am. And I further believe he still has a wonderful chance to realize all the promise of his immense gifts. Please, though, let's not disrespect the rest of a very talented league with cheap homerism. Irving, like many young players, has a lot to prove, and it's no slur on him to discuss what remains to be proven on this, a board dedicated to reasoned basketball discussion.

There's a line between fair criticism and excessive negativity. "Bumslayer" and referencing reputations that don't actually exist crossed it.

The rest of your post has nothing to do with my point, so I'm not sure who you're talking to there. Because I actually agree that Irving has much to improve on.

Ridiculous indeed.

[JasonEvans]

Would this be a good time to note that 5 of the top 9 scorers in the NBA, at this early juncture of the season, (including the top 2) are guys who played for K over the summer?

And speaking of guys making "the leap" I'm pretty much ready to concede the MVP to Anthony Davis right now. Agreed?

-Jason

[WillJ]

Agreed on Anthony Davis. I think that he and Lebron are the two best players in the league, and by a considerable margin. How Chris Paul snuck ahead of Davis in the ESPN rankings is beyond me.

[kAzE]

Would this be a good time to note that 5 of the top 9 scorers in the NBA, at this early juncture of the season, (including the top 2) are guys who played for K over the summer?

And speaking of guys making "the leap" I'm pretty much ready to concede the MVP to Anthony Davis right now. Agreed?

-Jason

He's the MVP of week 1 . . . but if the Pelicans go 41-41 and LeBron has his typical year while taking the Cavs to 60+ wins, I think he would still get the nod. I'm a little worried about Davis's usage at the moment. He can't possibly sustain 43 minutes a night and stay healthy. Come on, Monty Williams.

[CDu]

There's a line between fair criticism and excessive negativity. "Bumslayer" and referencing reputations that don't actually exist crossed it.

The rest of your post has nothing to do with my point, so I'm not sure who you're talking to there. Because I actually agree that Irving has much to improve on.

Ridiculous indeed.

The reputation does exist. It does not exist among people on DBR, but there are circles where it does exist. I didn't create it out of the blue, and had I not heard it elsewhere I never would have looked up the stats in the first place.

And as I said, doing better against bad players and worse against good ones is not unusual. Playing below-average against good players IS unusual for a star player. Irving hasn't just been a little bit worse against the best. He's been league-average or below league average against the best. Hence the term.

For example, Chris Paul has an ORtg of 112 or greater against every single team in the league. He is without peer at PG. Derrick Rose has an ORtg of 107 and a DRtg of 106.5 (compared to his averages of 109 and 108) against Miami/LA/Indiana/OKC/San Antonio. So he's certainly been better against lesser competition, but still pretty close to his norm. But Irving has been a below-average offensive player (ORtg < 100) against the league's best and very good (ORtg < 110) against the rest. That's a large disparity.

There's nothing wrong with not playing as well against the league's best. But Irving's variance in performance is MUCH greater than that of the other elite PGs in the league.

Yes, I'm a Bulls fan. No, this is not sour grapes that Irving beat out Rose for a starting spot in FIBA. This summer Irving was clearly playing better than Rose, who was pretty clearly rusty. I'm fine with that. I thought Rose would beat Irving out based on Coach K's initial comments on Rose, but I was wrong and I'm okay with that. But that has nothing to do with the fact that (a) I've read elsewhere of Irving's reputation as a bumslayer and (b) the stats back it up.

Look, I WANT Irving to be great. But I'm also not going to ignore what I read elsewhere, nor am I going to ignore the facts. I try very hard to remain objective even when it would be easy to let my preferences color my opinions. Irving may very well make the leap in the very near future. But to this point in his career, his performance vs the best as compared to his performance vs the rest seems to suggest that the label is accurate.

Hopefully he shakes that label. He's young and immensely talented. And if he does, I'll be happy to agree that he's made the leap. But it's insulting to be wrongly accused of making something up and it's insulting to be wrongly accused of letting emotion guide my reasoning. Especially when your defense of Irving very much appears to just be based on your love of the Duke uniform.

[COYS]

He's the MVP of week 1 . . . but if the Pelicans go 41-41 and LeBron has his typical year while taking the Cavs to 60+ wins, I think he would still get the nod. I'm a little worried about Davis's usage at the moment. He can't possibly sustain 43 minutes a night and stay healthy. Come on, Monty Williams.

I don't know, this year has some similarities to 2011 in terms of the MVP debate. Lebron has switched teams, joins up with Love and Irving, and is expected (just like he was in 2010) to immediately own the East and make/win the finals. In reality, there will probably be an adjustment period for everyone. Lebron posted his most underwhelming season in the past 7 years in his first year with the Heat . . . yet what was underwhelming for Lebron STILL made him the best player in the league. However, it was enough to knock him off of the top of the MVP race. The winner that year was Rose who was, in my opinion, an undeserving MVP despite putting in a great season. He benefited from being on a team that exceeded expectations and was surrounded by a supporting cast that was better than anyone realized at the time. But even better, he was a nice counter-weight to Lebron. He was a young guy who helped his team achieve at a high level when so much was not quite expected of him just yet. He also had the advantage of playing for the high profile Bulls.

To me, Davis is in a really good position. First, he's really good and everyone already acknowledges that so he's already in the discussion. Secondly, not too much is expected of the Pelicans, but in the relatively weak East I expect them to exceed expectations. Heck, 41-41 and a playoff berth would be seen as a solid season, so i don't think he suffers as much from being on an average team. Finally, he's much better than Derrick Rose was in 2011. Again, this is not to knock Rose, but Rose NEEDED the big bump from being on a good team because otherwise people would have looked more closely at his numbers and realized he actually wasn't better than Lebron, Durant, Paul, Howard, and others who had at least as good and probably better seasons. Rose was 10th in PER and 5th in Win Shares, excellent numbers to be sure but not necessarily MVP caliber. However, the Bulls managed to beat the Heat for best record in the regular season, which surprised everyone and gave Rose the votes he needed to rise above the other contenders. I don't think Davis will need that boost. His PER and Win Shares will probably come in even better than Rose in 2011. Personally, I'd be surprised if he's not in the top three and would only be mildly surprised if he beats out a soon to be 30-year old Lebron in PER (the perennial leader in both categories), Win Shares, or possibly even both. As for his usage, I expect that to drop a bit, naturally, but still stay high enough that his per game stats remain eye-popping. Also, he's already known as a superb defender and is on pace to exceed his already high expectations on that side of the ball. With Cavs and Lebron destined to go through an adjustment period, probably resulting in slightly lower individual stats for Lebron and the Pelicans unlikely to underperform, I think the tide is right for Davis to supplant Lebron for MVP. Of course, we still have a lot of basketball to play before we know for sure.

[Des Esseintes]

I don't know, this year has some similarities to 2011 in terms of the MVP debate. Lebron has switched teams, joins up with Love and Irving, and is expected (just like he was in 2010) to immediately own the East and make/win the finals. In reality, there will probably be an adjustment period for everyone. Lebron posted his most underwhelming season in the past 7 years in his first year with the Heat . . . yet what was underwhelming for Lebron STILL made him the best player in the league. However, it was enough to knock him off of the top of the MVP race. The winner that year was Rose who was, in my opinion, an undeserving MVP despite putting in a great season. He benefited from being on a team that exceeded expectations and was surrounded by a supporting cast that was better than anyone realized at the time. But even better, he was a nice counter-weight to Lebron. He was a young guy who helped his team achieve at a high level when so much was not quite expected of him just yet. He also had the advantage of playing for the high profile Bulls.

To me, Davis is in a really good position. First, he's really good and everyone already acknowledges that so he's already in the discussion. Secondly, not too much is expected of the Pelicans, but in the relatively weak East I expect them to exceed expectations. Heck, 41-41 and a playoff berth would be seen as a solid season, so i don't think he suffers as much from being on an average team. Finally, he's much better than Derrick Rose was in 2011. Again, this is not to knock Rose, but Rose NEEDED the big bump from being on a good team because otherwise people would have looked more closely at his numbers and realized he actually wasn't better than Lebron, Durant, Paul, Howard, and others who had at least as good and probably better seasons. Rose was 10th in PER and 5th in Win Shares, excellent numbers to be sure but not necessarily MVP caliber. However, the Bulls managed to beat the Heat for best record in the regular season, which surprised everyone and gave Rose the votes he needed to rise above the other contenders. I don't think Davis will need that boost. His PER and Win Shares will probably come in even better than Rose in 2011. Personally, I'd be surprised if he's not in the top three and would only be mildly surprised if he beats out a soon to be 30-year old Lebron in PER (the perennial leader in both categories), Win Shares, or possibly even both. As for his usage, I expect that to drop a bit, naturally, but still stay high enough that his per game stats remain eye-popping. Also, he's already known as a superb defender and is on pace to exceed his already high expectations on that side of the ball. With Cavs and Lebron destined to go through an adjustment period, probably resulting in slightly lower individual stats for Lebron and the Pelicans unlikely to underperform, I think the tide is right for Davis to supplant Lebron for MVP. Of course, we still have a lot of basketball to play before we know for sure.
New Orleans plays in the West. It might take 48 or 49 wins to make the playoffs there this year.

[kAzE]

I don't know, this year has some similarities to 2011 in terms of the MVP debate. Lebron has switched teams, joins up with Love and Irving, and is expected (just like he was in 2010) to immediately own the East and make/win the finals. In reality, there will probably be an adjustment period for everyone. Lebron posted his most underwhelming season in the past 7 years in his first year with the Heat . . . yet what was underwhelming for Lebron STILL made him the best player in the league. However, it was enough to knock him off of the top of the MVP race. The winner that year was Rose who was, in my opinion, an undeserving MVP despite putting in a great season. He benefited from being on a team that exceeded expectations and was surrounded by a supporting cast that was better than anyone realized at the time. But even better, he was a nice counter-weight to Lebron. He was a young guy who helped his team achieve at a high level when so much was not quite expected of him just yet. He also had the advantage of playing for the high profile Bulls.

To me, Davis is in a really good position. First, he's really good and everyone already acknowledges that so he's already in the discussion. Secondly, not too much is expected of the Pelicans, but in the relatively weak East I expect them to exceed expectations. Heck, 41-41 and a playoff berth would be seen as a solid season, so i don't think he suffers as much from being on an average team. Finally, he's much better than Derrick Rose was in 2011. Again, this is not to knock Rose, but Rose NEEDED the big bump from being on a good team because otherwise people would have looked more closely at his numbers and realized he actually wasn't better than Lebron, Durant, Paul, Howard, and others who had at least as good and probably better seasons. Rose was 10th in PER and 5th in Win Shares, excellent numbers to be sure but not necessarily MVP caliber. However, the Bulls managed to beat the Heat for best record in the regular season, which surprised everyone and gave Rose the votes he needed to rise above the other contenders. I don't think Davis will need that boost. His PER and Win Shares will probably come in even better than Rose in 2011. Personally, I'd be surprised if he's not in the top three and would only be mildly surprised if he beats out a soon to be 30-year old Lebron in PER (the perennial leader in both categories), Win Shares, or possibly even both. As for his usage, I expect that to drop a bit, naturally, but still stay high enough that his per game stats remain eye-popping. Also, he's already known as a superb defender and is on pace to exceed his already high expectations on that side of the ball. With Cavs and Lebron destined to go through an adjustment period, probably resulting in slightly lower individual stats for Lebron and the Pelicans unlikely to underperform, I think the tide is right for Davis to supplant Lebron for MVP. Of course, we still have a lot of basketball to play before we know for sure.

As Des Esseintes pointed out, the Pelicans are in the West. I don't know off the top of my head, but I doubt any past MVP has played for a team that didn't make the playoffs. I think New Orleans should make the playoffs, but will likely go out in the first round. Davis will win a MVP at some point in his career, he's definitely talented enough, and I think he's the front runner for DPOY this year, but the MVP should be good enough to lead his team to contend for the title, and the Pelicans aren't quite there yet.

[CDu]

I don't know, this year has some similarities to 2011 in terms of the MVP debate. Lebron has switched teams, joins up with Love and Irving, and is expected (just like he was in 2010) to immediately own the East and make/win the finals. In reality, there will probably be an adjustment period for everyone. Lebron posted his most underwhelming season in the past 7 years in his first year with the Heat . . . yet what was underwhelming for Lebron STILL made him the best player in the league. However, it was enough to knock him off of the top of the MVP race. The winner that year was Rose who was, in my opinion, an undeserving MVP despite putting in a great season. He benefited from being on a team that exceeded expectations and was surrounded by a supporting cast that was better than anyone realized at the time. But even better, he was a nice counter-weight to Lebron. He was a young guy who helped his team achieve at a high level when so much was not quite expected of him just yet. He also had the advantage of playing for the high profile Bulls.

To me, Davis is in a really good position. First, he's really good and everyone already acknowledges that so he's already in the discussion. Secondly, not too much is expected of the Pelicans, but in the relatively weak East I expect them to exceed expectations. Heck, 41-41 and a playoff berth would be seen as a solid season, so i don't think he suffers as much from being on an average team. Finally, he's much better than Derrick Rose was in 2011. Again, this is not to knock Rose, but Rose NEEDED the big bump from being on a good team because otherwise people would have looked more closely at his numbers and realized he actually wasn't better than Lebron, Durant, Paul, Howard, and others who had at least as good and probably better seasons. Rose was 10th in PER and 5th in Win Shares, excellent numbers to be sure but not necessarily MVP caliber. However, the Bulls managed to beat the Heat for best record in the regular season, which surprised everyone and gave Rose the votes he needed to rise above the other contenders. I don't think Davis will need that boost. His PER and Win Shares will probably come in even better than Rose in 2011. Personally, I'd be surprised if he's not in the top three and would only be mildly surprised if he beats out a soon to be 30-year old Lebron in PER (the perennial leader in both categories), Win Shares, or possibly even both. As for his usage, I expect that to drop a bit, naturally, but still stay high enough that his per game stats remain eye-popping. Also, he's already known as a superb defender and is on pace to exceed his already high expectations on that side of the ball. With Cavs and Lebron destined to go through an adjustment period, probably resulting in slightly lower individual stats for Lebron and the Pelicans unlikely to underperform, I think the tide is right for Davis to supplant Lebron for MVP. Of course, we still have a lot of basketball to play before we know for sure.

The NBA MVP award is all about the narrative. In 2011, Rose won it because he was the best player on the best (regular season) team. It didn't hurt that the NBA was probably suffering a bit from "LeBron fatigue". James had just won two straight MVPs and had handled "The Decision" in a distasteful manner. So while James was clearly the league's best player (as he has been for the past several years), the voters probably took the opportunity to go a different direction with the award. And Rose - the likeable, humble, hard-working star of an upstart Chicago team - made for a good option. He was not the best player, but he was a first-team All-NBA level guy. And his team success warranted his rating.

Last year, the NBA was again probably suffering from LeBron fatigue, having seen him win two straight MVPs again. So Kevin Durant (the league's second-best player) made for a good narrative. He was lighting people up at an unbelievable rate and carried the Thunder while Westbrook was injured.

So the question will again be one of narrative. Will LeBron's return to Cleveland result in him leading them to the best record in basketball this year? If so, I'd not be surprised to see him win his 5th. Will Cleveland struggle a bit and wind up second in the East? If so, I could see another player winning the award.

However, I doubt that other player will come from a team that is a borderline (or non) playoff team. So for Davis to be the guy, he'll need to get his team comfortably into the 50-win range (if not higher). Because if you aren't a top-3 team in your conference, the odds are VERY much against you winning the award.

In terms of talent, I think Davis is deserving of consideration for the award. He's certainly one of the 5 best players in the league right now. But the MVP pretty much always goes to a player on an elite team, and I doubt the Pelicans will get there this year.

[COYS]

Wow, I can't believe my brain fart that put the Pelicans in the east. Apologies all around. You guys might be right about the narrative not working for Davis unless the Pelicans make the playoffs and look good doing it. But I still think that somehow Lebron doesn't win this year due to a second round of Lebron fatigue and the fact that the Cavs are unlikely to exceed their already lofty expectations. But if it isn't Lebron, who would it be? The Spurs are too balanced to have and MVP, as has been the case for a few years now. Maybe Harden or Griffin? In both cases, a lot is expected of those guys. A sleeper like Steph Curry could sneak into the race. If there is a year that a guy on a mediocre team can win MVP, this might be the year.

[pfrduke]

Watching the Sixers play the Rockets (I know, first sign of a problem) and seeing Alexey Shved playing in jersey # 88 makes me think that the Sixers season would be much more entertaining (and a much more accurate portrayal of their talent level) if everyone on the team had to wear training camp numbers. Shved, Malcolm Thomas (99) and Jerami Grant (39) are already there, but they should really force guys like Hollis Thompson, Brandon Davies, Henry Sims, JaKarr Sampson, and Chris Johnson to wear numbers above 55.

[Des Esseintes]

Watching the Sixers play the Rockets (I know, first sign of a problem) and seeing Alexey Shved playing in jersey # 88 makes me think that the Sixers season would be much more entertaining (and a much more accurate portrayal of their talent level) if everyone on the team had to wear training camp numbers. Shved, Malcolm Thomas (99) and Jerami Grant (39) are already there, but they should really force guys like Hollis Thompson, Brandon Davies, Henry Sims, JaKarr Sampson, and Chris Johnson to wear numbers above 55.

I think of myself as an informed fan, and the NBA is my favorite sporting league to watch. I have not even heard of Thomas, Davies, Sims, Sampson, or Johnson. I mean, I've heard of Chris Johnson, but not the one who plays basketball for money. The Sixers are in all likelihood building a monster of a team, but man is it an unpleasant road they're taking to get there.

[ice-9]

The reputation does exist. It does not exist among people on DBR, but there are circles where it does exist. I didn't create it out of the blue, and had I not heard it elsewhere I never would have looked up the stats in the first place.

If Knicks fans think Michael Jordan is a ball hog, does that mean he has a reputation for being a ball hog?

I get that you dug up stats to prove your point, but those stats are incomplete. Actually, I'm totally fine with you researching stats. I think that's great and adds to the discussion, even if not conclusive.

But the label wasn't necessary.

Labeling Kyrie a bumslayer is the spiritual equivalent of writing Dukie with two Os. As in D-o-o-k-i-e. IMHO.


But it's insulting to be wrongly accused of making something up and it's insulting to be wrongly accused of letting emotion guide my reasoning. Especially when your defense of Irving very much appears to just be based on your love of the Duke uniform.

I'm just letting you know how you came across to me. If you weren't being Kyrie's anti-fan, then that's cool I have nothing more to say. You may want to choose your nicknames more carefully, at least in this forum, if you don't want to be misunderstood again.

Finally, as to your accusation of my defense of Irving...

Who is talking about Irving being perfect and super great? Nobody. Certainly not me. You and Des Esseintes are attacking a strawman.

The guy needs to get better. His defense is awful. Maybe he doesn't do as well against elite defensive teams. But you don't have to label him a bumslayer or build his reputation here on DBR as one.

Anyway, I'm ready to move on. Being a Duke fan right now just feels too good to be negative about anything. I still can't believe Pitt blewitt.

[pfrduke]

I think of myself as an informed fan, and the NBA is my favorite sporting league to watch. I have not even heard of Thomas, Davies, Sims, Sampson, or Johnson. I mean, I've heard of Chris Johnson, but not the one who plays basketball for money. The Sixers are in all likelihood building a monster of a team, but man is it an unpleasant road they're taking to get there.

Of those I listed, only Sampson is a rookie. Amazingly enough, Henry Sims started almost 1/3 of the 76ers games last season. Malcolm Thomas is on his fifth NBA team in 4 seasons (6th stop - twice with the Spurs - he may actually have a ring from having played a single game with San Antonio last season, if the NBA's policy on distributing championship rings is that generous) but has played fewer than 200 total minutes (despite accumulating 50 with the Sixers already this year).

It's a ridiculous roster that they've assembled.

[WillJ]

Isn't there a salary floor in the NBA collective bargaining agreement and, if so, how have the Sixers managed to get above it with that roster? It's awesome.

[CDu]

I get that you dug up stats to prove your point, but those stats are incomplete. Actually, I'm totally fine with you researching stats. I think that's great and adds to the discussion, even if not conclusive.

The stats are not incomplete. They are very reflective of reality. And I gave you a couple of other stars' numbers as well (Rose and Paul). I'm quite sure that if I did so for Westbrook, Parker, etc, the story would be the same. Irving has been at/below league average average against the best teams. That is not true of the other elite PG. Just because you are refusing to accept them doesn't make them not accurate and complete.


Finally, as to your accusation of my defense of Irving...

Who is talking about Irving being perfect and super great? Nobody. Certainly not me. You and Des Esseintes are attacking a strawman.

Actually, you're wrong here. Gary has been gently pushing the argument that Irving is the second-best PG in the league. He is not nobody. I have just been providing the counterargument that I think he's somewhere in the 6-7-8 range of PG right now (with a chance to move up). This debate between Gary and I has been ongoing (off and on) for a few months (since FIBA time I'd say). You seem to have jumped in really late in the discussion and missed the part of the conversation that drew my comments.

And I never accused you of saying Irving was super great. I was accusing you of defending Irving solely on "this being a Duke board." That's not a rational defense. Nothing wrong with that; you are perfectly within your right to defend him simply because he wore Duke blue. But don't accuse others of bias when your entire argument is based on one of bias.

[CDu]

I think of myself as an informed fan, and the NBA is my favorite sporting league to watch. I have not even heard of Thomas, Davies, Sims, Sampson, or Johnson. I mean, I've heard of Chris Johnson, but not the one who plays basketball for money. The Sixers are in all likelihood building a monster of a team, but man is it an unpleasant road they're taking to get there.

Thomas is a journeyman PF who has bounced around the D-League and the bottom of several NBA rosters. He's kind of a homeless man's Taj Gibson. There was a (very) brief time when Bulls fans were convinced he'd be the replacement for Gibson when the Bulls eventually lost Gibson to free agency. That was before Gibson took off as a player and before he signed long-term with the Bulls. Thomas is basically an energy guy/rebounder/shot blocker with good athleticism but lacking size and is completely devoid of offensive skills.

Sims was a productive center at Georgetown after Hibbert left. Good size, decent offensive skills, but he hasn't been able to stick with a team in the NBA. He had a pretty decent stretch with Philly late last year (11.8 ppg, 7.0 rpg) and could be a solid backup C in the league.

Davies is most famous for getting kicked out of BYU for sleeping with his girlfriend. He's a decent talent at PF, but is probably destined to be a career backup.

Jakar Sampson is a rookie out of St. John's. He's an athletic PF who made a debatable decision leaving early.

[JasonEvans]

Sims was a productive center at Georgetown after Hibbert left. Good size, decent offensive skills, but he hasn't been able to stick with a team in the NBA. He had a pretty decent stretch with Philly late last year (11.8 ppg, 7.0 rpg) and could be a solid backup C in the league.

Sims actually lives in the same condo building in downtown Philly as my mother-in-law. Somehow, and I cannot explain this, he is ALWAYS in the hallway either getting on or getting off the elevator. I don't mean like we bump into him once or twice in a weekend. I am telling you, I sometimes see him three or four times a day on/around the elevator in the hallway. It is spooky. Either he has a video camera and is watching us to see when we go into the hallway or he just rides the elevators up and down for fun. I'm not sure which it is.

My son commented one time, "He's a starting center in the NBA so he must be a good basketball player, right Daddy?" I said, "Well, he plays for the Sixers and they aren't exactly a NBA team right now..."

That said, if I was a Sixer fan I would be fine with what the franchise is doing. They are going to have a very impressive roster in a year or two... assuming these high lottery picks pan out as expected and don't continue to be constantly hurt.

-Jason "I guess the Sixers will just suck for as long as it takes to get enough good players to be good" Evans

[CDu]

Sims actually lives in the same condo building in downtown Philly as my mother-in-law. Somehow, and I cannot explain this, he is ALWAYS in the hallway either getting on or getting off the elevator. I don't mean like we bump into him once or twice in a weekend. I am telling you, I sometimes see him three or four times a day on/around the elevator in the hallway. It is spooky. Either he has a video camera and is watching us to see when we go into the hallway or he just rides the elevators up and down for fun. I'm not sure which it is.

My son commented one time, "He's a starting center in the NBA so he must be a good basketball player, right Daddy?" I said, "Well, he plays for the Sixers and they aren't exactly a NBA team right now..."

That said, if I was a Sixer fan I would be fine with what the franchise is doing. They are going to have a very impressive roster in a year or two... assuming these high lottery picks pan out as expected and don't continue to be constantly hurt.

-Jason "I guess the Sixers will just suck for as long as it takes to get enough good players to be good" Evans

Yup. They are building a roster quickly from the bottom. Noel, Embiid, Carter-Williams, and Wroten are a very good start. McDaniels (who may have learned to shoot) seems like a nice role player/defender. If they can add another nice piece or two, they are suddenly REALLY interesting.

[COYS]

Yup. They are building a roster quickly from the bottom. Noel, Embiid, Carter-Williams, and Wroten are a very good start. McDaniels (who may have learned to shoot) seems like a nice role player/defender. If they can add another nice piece or two, they are suddenly REALLY interesting.

As a Hawk's fan, I can't help but be slightly jealous of teams that are in the position of the 76er's. Yeah, they're bad right now, but they're getting really intriguing draft picks. The Hawks have been stuck in NBA purgatory for so long now . . . good enough to either make the playoffs and lose in the first or second round OR just miss the playoffs and get a low lottery pick. I was excited that we got out from under the awful Joe Johnson contract, but cleaning house still left us as a pretty good team, especially in the East. While the Suns got a lot of attention for being better than expected last year, the Hawks fell into that category as well. From a competition standpoint, I'm glad the team isn't tanking to get high draft picks. But, considering that the Hawks have never even really had a chance to land a high profile free agent, I see no way for the team to become a true contender without getting a star or two in the draft. I guess this is our punishment for passing on Chris Paul for world-beater Marvin Williams.

If we could get lucky in the draft, somehow, the supporting cast is ready to carry a super star to a title. I just don't see a path for us to get that star, currently.

[pfrduke]

Isn't there a salary floor in the NBA collective bargaining agreement and, if so, how have the Sixers managed to get above it with that roster? It's awesome.

There is a salary floor but the only penalty for falling beneath the floor is that the team has to make up the difference by paying more to the players on its roster. So, for example, if the team falls $15 million below the floor, each player on its roster would get an additional $1 million. It's not a real penalty - the rule simply guarantees that every team will spend 90% of the cap on salaries.

Also, you don't have to meet the salary floor until the last day of the season. So the 76ers can position themselves as a convenient dumping ground for a team looking to shed salary to avoid cap hits, and potentially acquire some assets (even if it's just a second round pick or two) for doing so. As of today, Philly projects to be ~$18 million under the cap floor.

[subzero02]

Thomas is a journeyman PF who has bounced around the D-League and the bottom of several NBA rosters. He's kind of a homeless man's Taj Gibson. There was a (very) brief time when Bulls fans were convinced he'd be the replacement for Gibson when the Bulls eventually lost Gibson to free agency. That was before Gibson took off as a player and before he signed long-term with the Bulls. Thomas is basically an energy guy/rebounder/shot blocker with good athleticism but lacking size and is completely devoid of offensive skills.

Sims was a productive center at Georgetown after Hibbert left. Good size, decent offensive skills, but he hasn't been able to stick with a team in the NBA. He had a pretty decent stretch with Philly late last year (11.8 ppg, 7.0 rpg) and could be a solid backup C in the league.

Davies is most famous for getting kicked out of BYU for sleeping with his girlfriend. He's a decent talent at PF, but is probably destined to be a career backup.

Jakar Sampson is a rookie out of St. John's. He's an athletic PF who made a debatable decision leaving early.

Brandon Davies was suspended just before the NCAA tournament his sophomore year. He was BYU's only true post presence and his suspension almost certainly cost the cougars a #1 seed. They were 27-2 at the time of his suspension and featured an offensive phenom in Jimmer Fredette. If I recall correctly, he got his girfriend pregnant and wasn't taking responsibility for the pregnancy. The girfriend's roommate was angered by Davies' behavior and wound up turning him in to the BYU administration, leading to his suspension. He was allowed to return to the team for his junior and senior seasons.

[CDu]

Brandon Davies was suspended just before the NCAA tournament his sophomore year. He was BYU's only true post presence and his suspension almost certainly cost the cougars a #1 seed. They were 27-2 at the time of his suspension and featured an offensive phenom in Jimmer Fredette. If I recall correctly, he got his girfriend pregnant and wasn't taking responsibility for the pregnancy. The girfriend's roommate was angered by Davies' behavior and wound up turning him in to the BYU administration, leading to his suspension. He was allowed to return to the team for his junior and senior seasons.

Davies was rumored to have gotten his girlfriend (a volleyball player at Arizona State) pregnant. But that turned out to be false.

[Des Esseintes]

Davies was rumored to have gotten his girlfriend (a volleyball player at Arizona State) pregnant. But that turned out to be false.

Never mind, as well, that the statistics on African-American athletes vs white athletes who get booked for this particular suspension at BYU are...we'll call them unbalanced.

http://deadspin.com/5791461/the-truth-about-race-religion-and-the-honor-code-at-byu

[ice-9]

Man, I thought I was going to move on, but it's pretty hard not to reply.


The stats are not incomplete. They are very reflective of reality. And I gave you a couple of other stars' numbers as well (Rose and Paul). I'm quite sure that if I did so for Westbrook, Parker, etc, the story would be the same. Irving has been at/below league average average against the best teams. That is not true of the other elite PG. Just because you are refusing to accept them doesn't make them not accurate and complete.

Could the fact that Kyrie having a poor supporting cast be a contributing factor for those stats? Against similarly bad teams, Kyrie can just be himself. Against good teams, he has to do so much more that he struggles? I don't know. We'd need to see star point guards from bad teams to get the right context, of which Rose and Paul don't qualify. Unfortunately, I don't care enough to research it.

I have no issues whatsoever with the hypothesis that Kyrie struggles against good teams.

My issue is you labeling him a bumslayer, which is derogatory. And which you have to this point still not acknowledged, instead picking on statements that aren't central to the point of the conversation.


I never accused you of saying Irving was super great. I was accusing you of defending Irving solely on "this being a Duke board." That's not a rational defense. Nothing wrong with that; you are perfectly within your right to defend him simply because he wore Duke blue. But don't accuse others of bias when your entire argument is based on one of bias.

OK, you didn't accuse me of saying Irving was super great; Des Esseintes did.

Also, this is what I wrote: "What's the issue really? Is it the fact that Kyrie was the chosen PG over Rose in the World Cup? Is there some kind of Bulls jealousy going on?" I don't presume to know what you're feeling, so I asked a question for you to confirm or deny. You deny, so OK, I'll take you on your word. Which I believe I have.

The person making accusations of bias is you.

And on the point of Duke jerseys, do we really want, say, a Miami fan coming in here talking about how Duke player X has a bad reputation because, that's what they talk about in the Miami forum? So we should think the same and use the same cute backhanded nicknames? Like bumslayer? How about if it came from a Tar Heels fan?

No man, the reason I like DBR is that we're not derogatory towards our own players. Fair, sure. Critical, fine. Derogatory, NO.

IMO, you crossed the line and became derogatory towards Kyrie. If you're going to accuse me of being a homer because of that, then OK, I guess I am one.

[CDu]

Man, I thought I was going to move on, but it's pretty hard not to reply.



Could the fact that Kyrie having a poor supporting cast be a contributing factor for those stats? Against similarly bad teams, Kyrie can just be himself. Against good teams, he has to do so much more that he struggles? I don't know. We'd need to see star point guards from bad teams to get the right context, of which Rose and Paul don't qualify. Unfortunately, I don't care enough to research it.

I have no issues whatsoever with the hypothesis that Kyrie struggles against good teams.

My issue is you labeling him a bumslayer, which is derogatory. And which you have to this point still not acknowledged, instead picking on statements that aren't central to the point of the conversation.



OK, you didn't accuse me of saying Irving was super great; Des Esseintes did.

Also, this is what I wrote: "What's the issue really? Is it the fact that Kyrie was the chosen PG over Rose in the World Cup? Is there some kind of Bulls jealousy going on?" I don't presume to know what you're feeling, so I asked a question for you to confirm or deny. You deny, so OK, I'll take you on your word. Which I believe I have.

The person making accusations of bias is you.

And on the point of Duke jerseys, do we really want, say, a Miami fan coming in here talking about how Duke player X has a bad reputation because, that's what they talk about in the Miami forum? So we should think the same and use the same cute backhanded nicknames? Like bumslayer? How about if it came from a Tar Heels fan?

No man, the reason I like DBR is that we're not derogatory towards our own players. Fair, sure. Critical, fine. Derogatory, NO.

IMO, you crossed the line and became derogatory towards Kyrie. If you're going to accuse me of being a homer because of that, then OK, I guess I am one.

I don't consider bumslayer derogatory. It is just shorthand for a guy who feasts on weak players and struggles against good ones.

I don't think teammates are the issue, as (a) his game has always been an iso, one-on-one game anyway, unreliant on teammates, and (b) the trend has continued so far this year against the two good PGs he has faced despite having two superstars supporting him.

And your question about my motives sure as heck seemed loaded to me. If you didn't intend to suggest I was acting biased, then why the reference out of nowhere to FIBA? Sure sounded like you were implying that was the reason.

From here we are going to have to agree to disagree. Feel free to believe whatever you want.

[theAlaskanBear]

Should Big Al's nickname be Ballet-Al? What a beautiful move:

https://gfycat.com/HalfShyArawana

[cato]

I don't consider bumslayer derogatory.

So, if you were talking with Kyrie, you would be comfortable calling him "bumslayer" to his face?

[CDu]

So, if you were talking with Kyrie, you would be comfortable calling him "bumslayer" to his face?

If I were friends/acquaintances with Irving? Sure, I'd have no problem saying that in some circles he has the reputation of being a bumslayer. But I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable critiquing the game of a complete stranger regardless of level of derogatory-ness.

[flyingdutchdevil]

So, if you were talking with Kyrie, you would be comfortable calling him "bumslayer" to his face?

I wouldn't feel comfortable calling Jabari a "terrible defensive player" to his face, or calling McBob a "the doppelganger of a Ukrainian arms dealer" to his face, even though both of these are true.

[Troublemaker]

In CDu's defense, I did a google search on "bumslayer" and "NBA" (https://www.google.com/search?q=bumslayer%20nba&rct=j) and a ton of Bulls-related links came up in which Bulls fans kept referring to their own players as bumslayers. Taj is a bumslayer, Noah's a bumslayer, Boozer the bumslayer, etc.

"Bumslayer" appears to be a colloquialism among internet Bulls fans, and they often use it to describe their own. So CDu probably thought nothing of it when he used "bumslayer" to describe Kyrie, other than Kyrie is someone with a wide disparity in his performances that is dependent on opposing PG quality. CDu did not, in this thread, invent a mean descriptor out of nowhere because he is anti-Kyrie.

[CDu]

I wouldn't feel comfortable calling Jabari a "terrible defensive player" to his face, or calling McBob a "the doppelganger of a Ukrainian arms dealer" to his face, even though both of these are true.

A better way of saying what I tried to say.


In CDu's defense, I did a google search on "bumslayer" and "NBA" (https://www.google.com/search?q=bumslayer%20nba&rct=j) and a ton of Bulls-related links came up in which Bulls fans kept referring to their own players as bumslayers. Taj is a bumslayer, Noah's a bumslayer, Boozer the bumslayer, etc.

"Bumslayer" appears to be a colloquialism among internet Bulls fans, and they often use it to describe their own. So CDu probably thought nothing of it when he used "bumslayer" to describe Kyrie, other than Kyrie is someone with a wide disparity in his performances that is dependent on opposing PG quality. CDu did not, in this thread, invent a mean descriptor out of nowhere because he is anti-Kyrie.

Thanks for the defense. However, I'd note that bumslayer is not a term exclusive to Bulls fans by any means. It's a pretty commonly-used term applied to, as you said, someone who dominates weaker comp but struggles against the good players/teams. It is commonly-used term among Bulls fans, but it's by no means a localized term:

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2014/4/3/5573824/baseball-bumslayers
http://beyondthescorecard.blogspot.com/2013/08/the-ballad-of-bumslayer.html
http://www.hardballtimes.com/baseballs-greatest-bumslayers/
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1315994&start=560
http://www.campusinsiders.com/news/preview-2014-texas-tech-red-raiders--1

It may have originated in Chicago, but it's grown to more national recognition. It's just not a term that many on DBR are familiar with, I guess.

But the rest is dead-on though, and I appreciate the defense.

[cato]

If I were friends/acquaintances with Irving? Sure, I'd have no problem saying that in some circles he has the reputation of being a bumslayer. But I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable critiquing the game of a complete stranger regardless of level of derogatory-ness.

Huh. I don't think I'd ever call a friend a bumslayer. Now, Ukrainian arms dealer doppelgänger -- absolutely. That's just funny, and anyone who sports a hairdo likeMcBob is expecting some comments.

[Troublemaker]

It may have originated in Chicago, but it's grown to more national recognition. It's just not a term that many on DBR are familiar with, I guess.

But the rest is dead-on though, and I appreciate the defense.

It may be on its way to national recognition because (at least to me) it's a great term. Very vivid and effective in conveying its meaning. In fact, I'm going to have to borrow "bumslayer" if you don't mind. However, based on a twitter search for "bumslayer" (https://twitter.com/search?q=bumslayer&src=typd), I think it's still very Chicago-y and not that broadly well-known yet.

[CDu]

It may be on its way to national recognition because (at least to me) it's a great term. Very vivid and effective in conveying its meaning. In fact, I'm going to have to borrow "bumslayer" if you don't mind. However, based on a twitter search for "bumslayer" (https://twitter.com/search?q=bumslayer&src=typd), I think it's still very Chicago-y and not that broadly well-known yet.

Fair enough. Feel free to use it: I didn't coin the phrase so I feel no ownership of it. :)

[tommy]

Not sure how the term "bumslayer" is not a pejorative one, because what it is saying is "you rack up your stats against weak players and perform poorly yourself against better players, meaning your overall performance and value are not really as good as your overall numbers might suggest." That sounds like an insult to me.

But whatever. I'd be interested in a little more flushing out of the stats, and of the accuracy of the term as applied to Kyrie. I don't know where CDu got the numbers he provided, or how easy it was to find them. I don't know where to find one's ORating broken down by opponent. Or maybe he did the calculations himself.

But I'd be interested, if it was easy to obtain these stats, in seeing not only Kyrie, Paul, and Rose, but the other top group of point guards mentioned, that group to include Parker, Westbrook, Curry, Lillard, Rose, and Rondo, and to expand it to more than just ORating. There are other meaningful stats for point guards as well. And when looking at "top opponents" it seems to me that in the East, the teams that separated themselves from the pack last year were Miami, Indiana, Chicago, and Toronto (who had the same 48 wins as Chicago did) and in the West, San Antonio, OKC, the Clippers, Portland, and Houston (those last 3 had the same number of wins) and then maybe even Golden State and Memphis, both of whom were very strong teams too.

A more comprehensive analysis of the larger group of elite point guards, using different and additional stats, as measured against a slightly larger group of elite teams, might yield more interesting and more convincing data.

[CDu]

Not sure how the term "bumslayer" is not a pejorative one, because what it is saying is "you rack up your stats against weak players and perform poorly yourself against better players, meaning your overall performance and value are not really as good as your overall numbers might suggest." That sounds like an insult to me.

But whatever. I'd be interested in a little more flushing out of the stats, and of the accuracy of the term as applied to Kyrie. I don't know where CDu got the numbers he provided, or how easy it was to find them. I don't know where to find one's ORating broken down by opponent. Or maybe he did the calculations himself.

But I'd be interested, if it was easy to obtain these stats, in seeing not only Kyrie, Paul, and Rose, but the other top group of point guards mentioned, that group to include Parker, Westbrook, Curry, Lillard, Rose, and Rondo, and to expand it to more than just ORating. There are other meaningful stats for point guards as well. And when looking at "top opponents" it seems to me that in the East, the teams that separated themselves from the pack last year were Miami, Indiana, Chicago, and Toronto (who had the same 48 wins as Chicago did) and in the West, San Antonio, OKC, the Clippers, Portland, and Houston (those last 3 had the same number of wins) and then maybe even Golden State and Memphis, both of whom were very strong teams too.

A more comprehensive analysis of the larger group of elite point guards, using different and additional stats, as measured against a slightly larger group of elite teams, might yield more interesting and more convincing data.

Bumslayer is certainly not complimentary. But I wouldn't call it pejorative. It's just easier to say "bumslayer" than it is to say "plays well against weaker competition and struggles against good competition" every time you want to make that point.

As for the data, it was very easy to get. Just go to each player's Basketball Reference page. Then go to "Splits" and pick your split of choice (I used "career" to get a reasonable sample size. I chose ORtg and DRtg because they are fairly comprehensive measures rather than going through a dissertation's worth of effort on various more specific metrics. I'm a new dad, so I am only willing to do so much analysis that I'm not getting paid for.

And I chose teams that have been consistently strong over the relevant time period (the length of Irving's career). In the East, that would be Chicago, Indiana, and Miami (Toronto just recently became good - prior to that they were terrible). Similar is true for Portland and Houston but to a lesser degree. San Antonio, OKC, and the Clippers are the clear members of the list. Houston/Portland (now) and LA and Dallas (a few years ago) would have made the list for sure, but each has been up and down over the time period.

[ice-9]

I wouldn't feel comfortable calling Jabari a "terrible defensive player" to his face, or calling McBob a "the doppelganger of a Ukrainian arms dealer" to his face, even though both of these are true.

Fair: below average NBA defender

Critical: terrible defensive player

Derogatory: swiss cheese? bumparker? slow foot? still-as-rock-defense?

I'm not good at inventing derogatory names as I find some of the above kinda funny, so it's not completely derogatory, but maybe you get my point.

[ice-9]

In CDu's defense, I did a google search on "bumslayer" and "NBA" (https://www.google.com/search?q=bumslayer%20nba&rct=j) and a ton of Bulls-related links came up in which Bulls fans kept referring to their own players as bumslayers. Taj is a bumslayer, Noah's a bumslayer, Boozer the bumslayer, etc.

"Bumslayer" appears to be a colloquialism among internet Bulls fans, and they often use it to describe their own. So CDu probably thought nothing of it when he used "bumslayer" to describe Kyrie, other than Kyrie is someone with a wide disparity in his performances that is dependent on opposing PG quality. CDu did not, in this thread, invent a mean descriptor out of nowhere because he is anti-Kyrie.

I bet if you do a search for d-o-o-k-i-e without the dashes you'll also get a lot of results.

I don't see how what's OK on a Bulls forum should be OK here; just like how what's OK on a Tar Hole forum shouldn't be OK here.

But I understand your point about CDu's intent.

[g-money]

Anybody that thinks it's not worth it for NBA players to play for the US team ought to check out Klay Thompson this year. Dude is tearing it up!

Also, Boogie Cousins seems to have turned over a new leaf (http://www.sacbee.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/ailene-voisin/article2610008.html).

[elvis14]

Anybody that thinks it's not worth it for NBA players to play for the US team ought to check out Klay Thompson this year. Dude is tearing it up!

Also, Boogie Cousins seems to have turned over a new leaf (http://www.sacbee.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/ailene-voisin/article2610008.html).

I was really impressed with Klay Thompson's play on Team USA. He played great D, made good decisions, shot well, etc. I really enjoyed watching him play and find myself rooting for him a little more this year.

[OldSchool]

It may be on its way to national recognition because (at least to me) it's a great term. Very vivid and effective in conveying its meaning. In fact, I'm going to have to borrow "bumslayer" if you don't mind. However, based on a twitter search for "bumslayer" (https://twitter.com/search?q=bumslayer&src=typd), I think it's still very Chicago-y and not that broadly well-known yet.

Thanks for the links explaining the term "bumslayer." The notion that the bodies of homeless men might be showing up at the Cleveland morgue and that Kyrie might be responsible was, to say the least, disturbing, but now I understand.

[Ichabod Drain]

If i were you guys I would be careful googling "bumslayer"

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

I was really impressed with Klay Thompson's play on Team USA. He played great D, made good decisions, shot well, etc. I really enjoyed watching him play and find myself rooting for him a little more this year.

I am more impressed with his girlfriend shaila singh, feel free to google her to your hearts content. Kid has done well for himself

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

I got The Jazz and the Mavs as my must watch game tonight. Other contenders are Cleveland and Denver, Atlanta vs Charlotte and Washington at Toronto... If you had to choose which one would you watch.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

I got The Jazz and the Mavs as my must watch game tonight. Other contenders are Cleveland and Denver, Atlanta vs Charlotte and Washington at Toronto... If you had to choose which one would you watch.

Man was I wrong The Jazz looked like a JV squad against the Mavs, however I was right about Klay Thompsons Girlfriend :p

[pfrduke]

The last undefeated team went down today when the Dubs lost to the Suns and the last* winless team picked up victory number 1 when the Lakers topped the Hornets. Just a handful of games into the season and the East and West are already looking like their familiar selves - under .500 is good for the 7th and 8th spots in the east, .571 is not good enough for the 8th spot in the west (for one team, at least).

Along with the Dubs, Houston and T-Dot get points for starting strong. All have just one loss and are outscoring opponents by double figures per game, the only three teams in the league so far to do so. Toronto's start is admittedly schedule-aided - the first 7 opponents have been Atlanta, Orlando, Miami (the loss), OKC (post-Westbrook injury), Boston, Washington, and Philly.

*I do not count the 76ers as a real NBA team since they are trying very hard not to be one.

[kAzE]

The last undefeated team went down today when the Dubs lost to the Suns and the last* winless team picked up victory number 1 when the Lakers topped the Hornets. Just a handful of games into the season and the East and West are already looking like their familiar selves - under .500 is good for the 7th and 8th spots in the east, .571 is not good enough for the 8th spot in the west (for one team, at least).

Along with the Dubs, Houston and T-Dot get points for starting strong. All have just one loss and are outscoring opponents by double figures per game, the only three teams in the league so far to do so. Toronto's start is admittedly schedule-aided - the first 7 opponents have been Atlanta, Orlando, Miami (the loss), OKC (post-Westbrook injury), Boston, Washington, and Philly.

*I do not count the 76ers as a real NBA team since they are trying very hard not to be one.

I like Toronto this year. They have some feisty guys who now have some playoff experience. Lowry/DeRozan could be the most underrated back court in the league. Both those guys can flat out get it done on both ends of the court. DeRozan is turning into a star, he's easily a top 4 shooting guard right now. The guy is getting to the free throw line like early career D-Wade (9.4 attempts per game!!) and getting a lot of steals (2.3 per game). Valanciunas/Johnson/Ross is a pretty decent front court for defense, and if Ross can start knocking down 3s like he did this weekend (8 for 13 in two games), these guys have a pretty high ceiling. Pretty good bench too, with Patrick Patterson, Lou Williams, Greivis Vaquez, James Johnson, and that really awkward looking pasty white guy who looks like a muppet. The Raptors are going to be a top 4 seed, and are probably going to battle with the Wizards all year for the #3 seed.

[pfrduke]

I like Toronto this year. They have some feisty guys who now have some playoff experience. Lowry/DeRozan could be the most underrated back court in the league. Both those guys can flat out get it done on both ends of the court. DeRozan is turning into a star, he's easily a top 4 shooting guard right now. The guy is getting to the free throw line like early career D-Wade (9.4 attempts per game!!) and getting a lot of steals (2.3 per game). Valanciunas/Johnson/Ross is a pretty decent front court for defense, and if Ross can start knocking down 3s like he did this weekend (8 for 13 in two games), these guys have a pretty high ceiling. The Raptors are going to be a top 4 seed, and are probably going to battle with the Wizards all year for the #3 seed.

Somewhat related - Demar DeRozan will be the 3rd leading scorer in Raptors history by the end of the week (he needs 20 points to pass Andrea Bargnani - Vinsanity (#2) and Bosh (#1) are a ways in front), which surprises me both because I would not have bet that DeRozan's career already has been this long and I would not have bet that the Raptors' history was such that 6,500 points would be good for third all time on their scoring list.

[Mabdul Doobakus]

I am reviving this thread to discuss Hassan Whiteside, who has already become a local legend and a huge source of fascination down here. I don't know how many of you have been able to watch him play or have seen his box scores, but he has basically gone from a D-league reclamation project to putting up historic numbers in the span of a month. In the month of January, he averaged 13 points a game on 67% shooting, as well as 10.6 rebounds and 3.4 blocks, in only 23.6 minutes per game. These are All-Star type numbers, but expand his minutes out to 35 minutes per game, and you're looking at MVP-type numbers. His PER is currently 3rd in the league behind only Anthony Davis and Kevin Durant. Keep in mind he is only 25 years old with almost no NBA experience before this. You may have heard about his triple double against the Bulls. Last night he grabbed 14 rebounds in the first 7 minutes of the game, en route to a total of 24 rebounds, which would've been higher had Spoelstra not inexplicably sat him for a long stretch of the 2nd half (during which time the Mavs went on a 21-0 run).

He has done nothing to suggest his success cannot be sustainable, which would make him an unprecedented player in the history of the NBA, a 7 foot athletic player, who somehow falls out of the sky to become a dominant center in the league. Guys like this are such a commodity, it's inexplicable that he could've fallen through the cracks like this.

The Heat still stink. Some of that has to do with poor health. Some of it has to do with a lack of depth. And, some of it, I fear, may lay at the feet of the coaching staff, but they currently have 2 All-Stars (Bosh and Wade) and a 3rd guy playing right now at an All-NBA level. If they're healthy in the playoffs (and if they even make the playoffs), I gotta think they'd be a real tough out. And who wouldn't love to see Cavs vs Heat in the first round?

[CDu]

This thread seems to have died down this month, but now that we're essentially at the All-Star break, I thought we could take stock of things.

Eastern Conference:

Before the season, everyone was predicting that the Bulls and the Cavs would be the teams to beat in the East. Well, through the first 2/3 of the season, that hasn't really been the case. The Bulls have been dealing with a myriad of injuries all season, and are sitting in 3rd at 34-20. The Cavs are still trying to figure things out (though they've been on a tear lately, winning 14 of their last 16) and sit in 5th at 33-22. Both are looking WAY up at the Atlanta Hawks (what?!?!?). The Hawks are cruising along at 43-11, a good 9 games up on the Bulls and 10.5 up on the Cavs.

Western Conference:

What a bloodbath this conference is. The Warriors lead the way, but there is a very real chance that they could lose in the first round to potential 8th seed (and currently 0.5 games out of the playoffs) OKC. In fact, if the Thunder move into 8th and the rest of the standings hold by season's end, one could easily see a scenario in which all of the top four seeds LOSE their first round matchups (OKC over Golden State; San Antonio over Memphis; LA Clips over Portland; Dallas over Houston). I wouldn't be shocked if any of the 8 top teams out west made the NBA finals.

Outlook:

In the East, the interesting thing will be where the Bulls and Cavs finish in the standings. The Bulls appear to be finally getting healthy: Jimmy Butler was out yesterday against Cleveland, but should be back after the all-star game; Noah is finally looking like Noah; Dunleavy is back to add floor spacing; and Rose is starting to find his form. Rose is the key for them. He has certainly picked his spots this year, almost as if he is coasting through the regular season. But in the matchups with the best, he has certainly come to play. He lit up Portland and Washington earlier this year, and he was awesome last night against the Cavs. But in between, he has appeared indifferent out there, settling for 3s and playing lazily on defense.

Cleveland, meanwhile, appears to be looking good (with the exception of last night). They had won 14 of their last 15, and finally seemed to be clicking together. And then they ran into a motivated Bulls team who were able to limit both James and Irving to mediocre performances. Still, I think there are very few teams capable of slowing the Cavs, and I think they'll end up as the #3 or #4 seed in the East. I think the Bulls will eventually get to #2 in the East provided they stay healthy.

I am still not sure what to think about the Hawks. They are almost certainly going to hang on to the #1 seed given their huge lead with under 30 games left. But I can't help but wonder whether they can win a 7-game series against the Bulls or Cavs when those two teams play their stars more minutes and can prepare a more focused gameplan for the Hawks. Still, it's hard to argue with the results so far.

In the West, I'm hesitant to even venture a guess. There are just so many good teams that it is hard to even guess who will make it to the second round!

[luvdahops]

I am still not sure what to think about the Hawks. They are almost certainly going to hang on to the #1 seed given their huge lead with under 30 games left. But I can't help but wonder whether they can win a 7-game series against the Bulls or Cavs when those two teams play their stars more minutes and can prepare a more focused gameplan for the Hawks. Still, it's hard to argue with the results so far.

In the West, I'm hesitant to even venture a guess. There are just so many good teams that it is hard to even guess who will make it to the second round!

In share your skepticism on whether the Hawks could beat the Bulls or Cavs in a 7-game series. I am biased of course, but the Bulls in particular seem to have a combination of team and individual defensive prowess, overall depth and offensive firepower to overcome Atlanta. But that assumes they finish the regular season healthy, and can get past the Cavs in a likely second round match-up.

[CDu]

In share your skepticism on whether the Hawks could beat the Bulls or Cavs in a 7-game series. I am biased of course, but the Bulls in particular seem to have a combination of team and individual defensive prowess, overall depth and offensive firepower to overcome Atlanta. But that assumes they finish the regular season healthy, and can get past the Cavs in a likely second round match-up.

Yeah, I'll admit to bias here as well (Bulls fan). But I think that most share this opinion (not just Bulls and Cavs fans).

It will be really interesting to see how the seedings fall out. Will Cleveland make it up to 3rd (or even 2nd)? If Chicago and Cleveland are #2 and #3, that's a brutal second-round matchup. Both teams have spent the first half of the season incorporating a lot of new faces (Cleveland with LeBron, the LeBronettes, and Love; Chicago with Rose, Gasol, Mirotic, and Brooks) and dealing with injuries, but both appear to be finding their strides. It's very possible that in a month we'll be talking about these two as legitimately the best in the East, yet neither has a realistic shot at catching Atlanta for the #1 seed. So it will be interesting to see if they both overtake Toronto (or if neither does).

And yes, health is the big question with both teams. Love and Irving have dealt with injuries before and James is starting to show signs of wear-and-tear for the first time ever. And Chicago has dealt with a ton of ankle sprains (Rose, Gibson, Dunleavy) and some nagging injuries (Noah, Butler).

[JasonEvans]

It will be really interesting to see how the seedings fall out. Will Cleveland make it up to 3rd (or even 2nd)? If Chicago and Cleveland are #2 and #3, that's a brutal second-round matchup. Both teams have spent the first half of the season incorporating a lot of new faces (Cleveland with LeBron, the LeBronettes, and Love; Chicago with Rose, Gasol, Mirotic, and Brooks) and dealing with injuries, but both appear to be finding their strides. It's very possible that in a month we'll be talking about these two as legitimately the best in the East, yet neither has a realistic shot at catching Atlanta for the #1 seed. So it will be interesting to see if they both overtake Toronto (or if neither does).

I think it is going to end up being:
1. Atlanta
2. Toronto or maybe Cleveland
3. Cleveland or maybe Toronto
4. Chicago

Question -- for winning the pathetic, ridiculous Atlantic Division (the Raptors have a 14.5 game lead on the Nets), does Toronto get a guarantee of a top 3 or top 4 seed? Or, do they merely automatically make the playoffs?

-Jason "I love how everyone is dismissing the Hawks... we'll see" Evans

[kAzE]

I'm a Cavs fan, and I have serious doubts about their ability to beat the Hawks in a 7 games series. True, the Hawks don't have a singular go-to scorer, but the Jeff Teague/Al Horford high pick & roll may just be the most deadly play in the NBA with the shooters on that team. Their entire starting 5 is capable of hitting shots out to the 3 point line (Horford is the new Dirk, seriously. Check out what's he's doing from mid-range this year, it's nuts), and it does absolutely amazing things for their spacing. Kyle Korver in corner basically makes every offensive possession 4 on 4, and anyone who has played basketball should know how much easier it is to create offense when it's 4 on 4 vs. 5 on 5.

True, we have LeBron, but we're still relying on him too much for offense. I think a smart team like the Hawks will have a good gameplan for stopping our relatively simple offense: give it to LeBron and let him do LeBron things. Their offense is hard to gameplan for, and they have no weaknesses on defense. Even Korver is above average on D, and Horford/Millsap will absolutely go crazy in the paint being defended by Kevin Love. I hope we don't meet them, especially before the conference finals . . . praying for the #2 or #3 seed.