I mourn for UNC

[JasonEvans]

I'm wondering how the rest of you feel about something that just occurred to me fairly recently.

I don't think I had any idea how bad this scandal was until the Wainstein report came out. I mean, I knew about a lot of this stuff, as we all did, but it is so much more concrete now and it is far worse than I had imagined.

The fact that there are emails talking about specific grades the players need, the fact that there are PowerPoint slides detailing the scope of the academic fraud to members of the athletic department, and the fact that the director of UNC's center for ethics was not only complicit in all this but actually seemed to be in one of the people engineering some of the worst of the fraud is just unbelievable. I mean, how much worse could it be? I suppose there could be emails from coaches like Dean or Roy that directly implicate them. That would be worse. I was going to say it would be worse if there was evidence that some kids who wanted an education were forced into the sham classes and did not get an education as a result, but we know that exact thing did happen (recall that Sean May interview where he said he wanted to major in communications but was told to get a degree is AFAM instead -- why aren't more people writing about this?!?!).

Bottom line though --did any of you suspect that it was as bad as this? When all this started it was just some football players getting to go to parties and maybe being funneled a little bit of money through an assistant coach who was secretly on the payroll of an agent. And we all thought that was a really bad scandal. compared to this, that's freaking jaywalking.

Think for a moment about what college athletics have gone through in the past few years. Penn State and UNC were two of the paragons of virtue in the athletic world; two schools that succeeded on the field and had great track records of graduation and producing quality people as well. If you had told me to name two schools that would commit the two worst scandals in modern memory, UNC and Penn State wouldn't have been in the first 50 schools I guessed.

It really is sad. And while I may be in the minority in saying this, I think it taints the amazing rivalry we have with them as well. I used to be known around here (thanks to the many UNC alums in my family) for being a bit of a Carolina apologist. I'm not anymore. My feelings toward them have really changed...

...and I mourn for the days when I actually respected them.

-Jason "so sad..." Evans

--note: I'll probably merge this back into the other scandal thread in a bit, but wanted it to stand alone for a little while at least. This is about respect and shock, not the details of what has been revealed or what should be done to them as punishment--

[TruBlu]

...and I mourn for the days when I actually respected them.


That is a noble sentiment on your part, and I respect you for it.

For me, I feel like I need a good kick in the rear for ever respecting them. Won't happen again, unless they self-impose some very harsh punishments and then have a very open and public oversight of their athletic department. Think there's any chance of that happening?

[hurleyfor3]

Bottom line though --did any of you suspect that it was as bad as this?

Yes, via the cockroach principle. There's never just one cockroach; it's always worse than the evidence you have.

What did surprise me was how deep the evidence was that made its way to light.

There's no way the fraud was limited to a couple administrators in the AFAM department. Just none. I will believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone before believing Debbie Crowder did.


...and I mourn for the days when I actually respected them.

We can safely say the Carolina Way has gone out the window, especially if the defense is that everyone does it.

I'm disturbed more unc alumni aren't angry about how this reflects on unc as a putative university. If it were Duke I'd be furious.


--note: I'll probably merge this back into the other scandal thread in a bit, but wanted it to stand alone for a little while at least. This is about respect and shock, not the details of what has been revealed or what should be done to them as punishment--

It think it's fine as a separate thread, as this one seems to relate more to our emotions rather than the facts of the case.

[MarkD83]

Jason. I agree with you. I did not think it was this bad and now think there is more fraud to be discovered. The report was restricted to Afam. I am almost wondering if schools need to take a stand by not playing unc but this hurts the school taking a stand rather than unc

[lotusland]

My son was implanted with bilateral cochlear implants by the fine folks at UNC hospital so I definitely separate my feelings for the men's bball program and the university. With that said I view this scandal as an athletics problem and therefore I don't mourn one iota for them.

[brevity]

There's a definite change, and you are right to acknowledge it. The bottom line is this: Duke can still take pride in beating Carolina, but it can no longer take pride in playing them.


--note: I'll probably merge this back into the other scandal thread in a bit, but wanted it to stand alone for a little while at least. This is about respect and shock, not the details of what has been revealed or what should be done to them as punishment--


It think it's fine as a separate thread, as this one seems to relate more to our emotions rather than the facts of the case.

Disagree. Not a moderator, but it should be merged into the Duke vs. Carolina: Scandal's Effect thread. That thread came first and serves the exact same purpose.

[Duvall]

Disagree. Not a moderator, but it should be merged into the Duke vs. Carolina: Scandal's Effect thread. That thread came first and serves the exact same purpose.

Compromise: Keep this thread separate, but merge all discussion of thread merging into a Thread Merging Omnibus Thread. Or at least a 2014-2015 Thread Merging Thread.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

I felt this way too as evidence by a similar thread that I started about how it may change the Rivalry. At first I felt bad about it but after reading further and then venturing to IC message board which I shall never do again I changed my mind. I have no respect for them and they are getting what they deserve. How could they defend this at all, at IC they think its over and time to move on. No more sanctions no penalties nothing to see here. Also anyone who says that they should be penalized for it gets destroyed over there. Its crazy how the light blue tainted sunglasses can change the perspective. I sit and wonder if the same happened at Duke would we be sitting here making excuses, defending, saying that nothing solid was proven, and laying blame on a few rogue employees. Or would we man up and blame the coaches and administrators who let this go on for so long? I am a die hard fan who didn't go to Duke. I have no connection to the school other than being a huge fan, and going to games whenever Ive been able to. However I respect and take pride in the fact that the academics side of Duke cannot be argued. As of now we know that our athletes take legit classes and go to those classes. If that was not the case even never having attended the University I would not be able to take the same amount of enjoyment from the teams.

[PSurprise]

I don't think I would say I would mourn for UNC, as much I would say I mourn for the rivalry. The (perceived) strong academics of each school was another singificant (at least in my mind) part of the rivalry that there is very few comparisons in colleges (sorry for the grammar there). Of course there are thousands of faculty, staff and others at UNC and its affiliations that seek to do the right thing 99.99% of the time. However, I still can't get over the fact that UNC did this to themselves. They broke the rules, they deserve whatever punishment, if any. So, not to start going into who should we (they) blame, but really the people I really "mourn" for are those that have upheld the principles of the university and the future students who may share in some of the punishment handed out by the NCAA, SACS, whoever.

[Duvall]

Spending two decades dealing with UNC fans on the Internet led me to expect the worst from anyone associated with UNC athletics, so they weren't really capable of disappointment. The university is another matter, but this still looks like a case of athletics corrupting an academic department, regardless of what UNC's PR people would have you believe.

[budwom]

These guys have been the ultimate hypocrites for years. All the self righteous blather about The Carolina Way has been insufferable for decades as we've known about their coddling of athletes (though we never knew
the true extent). Why anyone would feel sorry for them is beyond me.

[roywhite]

The level of stonewalling indicated to me that they were hiding something pretty bad, and there may be more bad stuff to come. I hope it all comes out, I hope they get penalized severely, and I hope some of their fans learn some humility. My biggest question at this point is whether the UNC administration and athletic department will display any true remorse for what they've done.

I do think it diminishes our rivalry. Can we get the Terps back?......just kidding. ;)

As a North Carolina resident, I don't like to see the flagship University fall in national stature, and I think it also reflects poorly on the state of North Carolina....that's not a good thing.

[Duvall]

The level of stonewalling indicated to me that they were hiding something pretty bad, and there may be more bad stuff to come. I hope it all comes out, I hope they get penalized severely, and I hope some of their fans learn some humility.


I think we've seen enough to know that it's much more likely that their fans would just turn angry, paranoid and insane.

[DUKIECB]

I just had this very conversation with my dad over lunch today. I told him I mourn for the people who went to Carolina because the university had the reputation of being a quality school, took the classes, worked their butts off and EARNED their degree. Those folks now have the unfortunate reality of a cheapened degree from the viewpoint of anyone who finds out they graduated from UNC. It's completely unfair to them. They are the real victims here.

[devildeac]

Initial response: boo-freaking-hoo

4422x1000 (or more)

I'll give this some additional thought over the next several hours after I get out of the office and compose something more fitting/professional. I'll preface it by saying my wife's from NC (and she is appalled by this) and we have most of our direct family and some in-laws with Duke degrees (check my profile;)), a couple unc grads in the family and a daughter who is there now in medical school. I'm not sure my conclusion will be much different but at least I'll ponder it for a while.

[ncexnyc]

The level of stonewalling indicated to me that they were hiding something pretty bad, and there may be more bad stuff to come. I hope it all comes out, I hope they get penalized severely, and I hope some of their fans learn some humility. My biggest question at this point is whether the UNC administration and athletic department will display any true remorse for what they've done.

I do think it diminishes our rivalry. Can we get the Terps back?......just kidding. ;)

As a North Carolina resident, I don't like to see the flagship University fall in national stature, and I think it also reflects poorly on the state of North Carolina....that's not a good thing.
Sadly, it's the last line of your post that is most disturbing to me. Considering all that has gone on these past four years since Fat Marvin made his infamous tweet. The attempts to stonewall this whole matter by the administration of UNC, BOT, BOG, and people within our state's judicial system paint a very sad picture of our state indeed.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I'm certainly not in mourning. I think it's horribly sad that the sick culture of fear over there has prevented what are likely to be many smart, sensible people from feeling like they can unapologetically protest, take action or otherwise shake some sense into the pathetic leaders of a once-fine institution.

It's truly disgusting that UNC's leaders have no greater sense of right and wrong than my five-year old when he breaks something. You expect a five year old to scream, whine and lie that he didn't do it and then make excuses once he realizes he's caught. To see such behavior from a group of adults as a result of fear of loss of their cherished but ill-gotten spoils is beyond reprehensible.

So, I'll say I mourn for the loss of honor and respect. To teach a student body, alumni and broad reaching fan base that these behaviors are acceptable is a moral outrage.

[MCFinARL]

My son was implanted with bilateral cochlear implants by the fine folks at UNC hospital so I definitely separate my feelings for the men's bball program and the university. With that said I view this scandal as an athletics problem and therefore I don't mourn one iota for them.



Spending two decades dealing with UNC fans on the Internet led me to expect the worst from anyone associated with UNC athletics, so they weren't really capable of disappointment. The university is another matter, but this still looks like a case of athletics corrupting an academic department, regardless of what UNC's PR people would have you believe.

While I agree it seems to be primarily a case of athletics corrupting an academic department, athletics DID corrupt an academic department, and therefore it's more than an athletics problem. And that is what I mourn for--a (once) prestigious flagship state university that allows its degrees to be cheapened by, essentially, giving some of them away and then, when the fraud comes to light, goes out of its way to stonewall instead of immediately rectifying things. The priorities of the administration here are all too clear, and they aren't academics.


Compromise: Keep this thread separate, but merge all discussion of thread merging into a Thread Merging Omnibus Thread. Or at least a 2014-2015 Thread Merging Thread.

Wow, this is awesomely meta.

[Jarhead]

Sadly, it's the last line of your post that is most disturbing to me. Considering all that has gone on these past four years since Fat Marvin made his infamous tweet. The attempts to stonewall this whole matter by the administration of UNC, BOT, BOG, and people within our state's judicial system paint a very sad picture of our state indeed.

No links. Just heard it coming from the TV set in the other room. On the Triangle ABC station they said something about the NCAA waking up and apparently saying something. I have no more information, but I do have a recommendation for them. The NCAA should put the lack of institution controlon the table, and act on it. The only one I'm sure about is SMU, and that was extreme. Now the NCAA has the facts, and they should now act appropriately.

[Tripping William]

No links. Just heard it coming from the TV set in the other room. On the Triangle ABC station they said something about the NCAA waking up and apparently saying something. I have no more information, but I do have a recommendation for them. The NCAA should put the lack of institution controlon the table, and act on it. The only one I'm sure about is SMU, and that was extreme. Now the NCAA has the facts, and they should now act appropriately.

Which I also posted in the main scandal thread. Key phrases: "deeply troubling" and "absolutely disturbing."

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/emmert-calls-north-carolina-report-troubling-26491048

[Henderson]

Sorry, but I'm loving the mess Carolina has gotten itself into, and I hope it gets worse.

9F.

[wilko]

Sorry, but I'm loving the mess Carolina has gotten itself into, and I hope it gets worse.

9F.

It would be impossible for me to agree with this more.... Couldnt happen to a more deserving fan base.

Let the ridicule begin...
Check the clip about 2 or 3 min in on what they say about UNC...
https://screen.yahoo.com/snl/weekend-part-1-071017715.html

[weezie]

wilko and Hendo, come sit over here next to me.

[mpj96]

If this stays over on the athletic side of the house then I am happy to pop some popcorn and watch the fire burn.

If it spills over into accreditation then that will bum me out. UNC is a good school and is a big part of a real treasure for the State of North Carolina. The excellent colleges and universities located here have always been a point of pride and a tremendous asset to the state. I don't see accreditation as being truly threatened yet but this has caused the question to be asked. Can't say that I would enjoy seeing that become a real issue.

[fidel]

My desire is that they do not go after 'the school', but rather all those that obfuscated, that didn't act, and those that caused the other 'investigations', including the former Governor, to find 'no evidence of an athletic scandal'.

Boxill is a start. I want me more of that.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I just had this very conversation with my dad over lunch today. I told him I mourn for the people who went to Carolina because the university had the reputation of being a quality school, took the classes, worked their butts off and EARNED their degree. Those folks now have the unfortunate reality of a cheapened degree from the viewpoint of anyone who finds out they graduated from UNC. It's completely unfair to them. They are the real victims here.

This, many times over. If you were a student-athlete from this period who worked hard and earned a degree, wouldn't you be livid that from now on, anyone who sees your resume will wonder what advantages you were given? Rather than to ridiculous display of basketball players standing behind Williams and saying it's all bunk, where are all the "real" student-athletes who feel their accomplishments have been sullied?

I do not revel in these acknowledgments. I feel it is terrible for UNC, bad for the NCAA, nasty for the ACC, and not good for Duke. It is emblematic of the slow and dirty changes to college sports, it lessens what has been a rivalry for a century, and it makes our state college system looks foolish.

These are not good days. I do not enjoy the schadenfreude of watching UNC squirm. I don't lobby for the death penalty or a slash and burn justice.

It just makes me nostalgic for the days when I could root against Vince Carter because he was too flashy, against Dante Calabria because of his hair, and against Jamison because he was just too damned good.

My Tar Heel neighbor is embarrassed for the program (as he should be) and is not looking forward to basketball season, when all these allegations will be hashed over time and time again with each broadcast. Where's the fun in poking fun at him now?

This definitively changes the rivalry and my opinion of the university and those in the athletic program. And I am sad.

Go Duke!

[Wander]

JE, I'm somewhere between you and the average Duke fan. I definitely don't mourn for UNC, and they probably deserve worse than whatever happens. At the same time, it's a little bit like Penn State - the crimes committed by that football program were so awful that it feels inappropriate to feel good about any punishment that comes their way, at least in a sports rivalry sense. Obviously, what happened at UNC isn't anywhere near as bad as what happened at Penn State, but to me, it's sufficiently bad that I don't feel like doing the whole rah rah Duke fan thing over it.

[Lord Ash]

I've been keeping up with this from the start. My feelings for Carolina and the rivalry are just done. I used to think we were two sides of the same coin, my fandom dictated as much as where I went to school as anything else.

Not anymore. They are a sham, their accomplishments have been a sham, and the rivalry isn't what we thought it was. It actually hurts my love of Duke basketball because it is a bit loss... But I just cannot care like I did. Maybe if I actually believe they have paid the price for what they have done it may some day come back, but for now... No.

And Jason... It is a lot worse than what has been revealed, I bet. A lot. I have always suspected as much.

[Im4howdy]

Since I can't remember ever agreeing with Jason, I thought it only right to say that I do. As someone who grew up in North Carolina and spent about 35 years there, it is a very sad day for the (torpedoed) flagship of the UNC system. Any glee I might feel is tempered by (as DUKIECB stated) the fact that now a degree from that institution will be questioned/laughed at/etc.

I commented to my wife yesterday that I'm sure my mother (ahem, a UNC grad and a Mangum) is spinning in her grave. [Of course that side was already spinning over my mother marrying a Duke man and having a son and grandson matriculate there.]

It may be the saddest event in NC since the Civil War.

[Duvall]

It may be the saddest event in NC since the Civil War.

Let's not get too over the top here.

[OldPhiKap]

It may be the saddest event in NC since the Civil War.


Let's not get too over the top here.

More importantly -- is it worse than an earthquake in Haiti?

[moonpie23]

wilko and Hendo, come sit over here next to me.

don't forget me......

[devildeac]

More importantly -- is it worse than an earthquake in Haiti?

Smart-arse.

I think you need to visit your massage therapist. Better make that several sessions. It's gonna be a loonnggg season.:rolleyes:

(dadgummit)

[Newton_14]

Great thread Jason. Like I said earlier, as a life long resident of this state, a lover of college hoops/sports, and as a fan, a part of what was supposedly the greatest rivalry in all of sports, not just because of the quality of the play but also because both schools "did things the right way concerning academics and NCAA Rules" the whole sordid mess is just appalling to me. That unc would cheat this badly with the sole desire of fielding the best team possible, academics be damned, is just unbelievable. Before the Marvin Austin tweet and all that followed, I would have bet large sums of money that there was no way something like this could ever happen at Carolina (by the way, I use that word intentionally because the Ol Ball Coach has weighed in. He asked that the media not to refer to his school as "Carolina" any longer lest they be confused with that group in Chapel Hill").

The rivalry is severely and likely permanently damaged. Yes ESPN will still do their thing, touting it as the greatest thing going, and never mentioning the sins of unc... gotta keep the benjamins rolling in, but it won't be the same. I mourn for the Duke students who will tent in freezing weather for a choice seat to watch a fraud program play. Anything unc wins is meaningless to me.

Until such time they perform a full blown surgical and precise "purge", firing every single coach who had kids in those classes and AFAM major, including the head coaches, assistant coaches, trainers, etc and start fresh, then I can't respect any product they put on the floor. I also think it is very evident in the report that the paper classes spread to other majors as well.

Swofford and Roy Williams should both resign immediately or be fired for cause without further pay. But again, any staff member on any team, be it Men's Basketball, Football, Baseball, Women's Hoops, soccer, etc who was in their position during any semester where a player on their team took these classes should be fired.

They need a complete purge and rebuild in each guilty sports program. Anything less than that is unacceptable. Take those actions and then we can start the discussion on how they get to the level of a program that can be respected in the sports an academic community.

Much like Penn State, the sports culture became like a cult, and became untouchable no matter the sin. The Basketball Team was to be worshipped and anointed at all costs. No one dare speaks against it or gets in the way of the success for any reason.

The backbreaker is that it started and went on during Dean Smith's tenure. I think only the hardest of the hardcore haters wanted to see that happen. I didn't and I am a 9F guy all day everyday. I am sorry his health is so poor he cannot speak for himself. It doesn't change the facts provided in the report. Just a sad deal.

[devildeac]

No tears. No mercy. Perhaps a bit of sadness at the damage it might do to the flagship of the NC higher educational system as my older daughter graduated in 2005 and my wife's youngest sister finished there in the early 80s. It won't affect them and I don't think it will affect many of the grads over the last 20+ years unless it is discovered that multiple other departments were involved. We don't talk about rivalries much at family gatherings so I've been spared most of the personal abuse. It does become excessively tiresome, irritating and loathsome to have read how wonderful and perfect the c*arolina way has been for the last several decades living here, both from local/state sources and national media outlets. And now they have been exposed. They cheated, lied and manipulated for almost 20 years, reaping much (more) national fame and financial rewards along the way and exuding incredible hubris in the process.

As has been discussed in other threads, I hope the departments and teams that have been clean are spared in the process. But, for all the departments and teams that used ineligible players, their wins should be forfeited, their records expunged, their titles vacated, scholarships reduced and their programs banned from tournament participation for an appropriate number of seasons based on the extent of their misdeeds.

This is no longer the small pool of vomit in the school hallway that keeps getting peppermint dumped on it hoping to make it smell better as one poster here so graphically described. This is a putrid and noisome cesspool that may take years to excavate and purify, but only if they are willing to admit all their improprieties and act on them swiftly and honestly and be willing to accept almost any penalties and sanctions that may be forthcoming.

Well, maybe that's a bit harsh. Or, maybe not. Henceforth, to me, they're just another fugly-colored team to beat like NCSU or my second alma mater, whether it be 41-0 on the gridiron, 82-50 on the hardwood or 1-0 on the pitch or diamond with a penalty kick awarded as time expires or with a walk-off HR in the bottom of the 15th inning. And, they can still go to hell.

And I hope there's still a seat on the bench next to weezie, wilko, Henderson and moonpie:D.

And, quoting from Actual Miles:

"Kick 'em when they're up
Kick 'em when they're down
Kick 'em when they're stiff
Kick 'em all around"

[DevilYouthCoach]

No tears. No mercy.
And I hope there's still a seat on the bench next to weezie, wilko, Henderson and moonpie:D.


I will be happy to bring you all some refreshments on that bench!

I am wondering if their penalties might should include taking back the "national championships" that were awarded erroneously? I think that would be most appropriate, just for starters.

[Acymetric]

If this stays over on the athletic side of the house then I am happy to pop some popcorn and watch the fire burn.

If it spills over into accreditation then that will bum me out. UNC is a good school and is a big part of a real treasure for the State of North Carolina. The excellent colleges and universities located here have always been a point of pride and a tremendous asset to the state. I don't see accreditation as being truly threatened yet but this has caused the question to be asked. Can't say that I would enjoy seeing that become a real issue.

This is tough as a lifelong (well, minus 2 years of college in Ohio before transferring back home) Carolina resident (and Duke fan). I have always enjoyed beating ***, and enjoyed them losing to anyone else almost as much. That said, I have always appreciated the high value of having a flagship state school that had a nationally strong academic reputation. Even though it hurts the entire state to see that image crumble, I hope it does. I actually think some form of punishment from SACS is more important than the NCAA punishment. Show schools nationwide that cheating like this isn't just compromising academic integrity, it risks sacrificing academics entirely. For the sake of education nationwide, SACS needs to show some muscle and hit *** where it really hurts. On the off chance anything remotely similar is going on elsewhere, this is the only thing that would really shut it down. If *** loses or has some kind of probation applied to their accreditation, presidents at D1 schools everywhere will be going with a fine tooth comb to make sure they aren't next, and as someone who values education more than college athletics I think it is important that it happens.

[uh_no]

This is tough as a lifelong (well, minus 2 years of college in Ohio before transferring back home) Carolina resident (and Duke fan). I have always enjoyed beating ***, and enjoyed them losing to anyone else almost as much. That said, I have always appreciated the high value of having a flagship state school that had a nationally strong academic reputation. Even though it hurts the entire state to see that image crumble, I hope it does. I actually think some form of punishment from SACS is more important than the NCAA punishment. Show schools nationwide that cheating like this isn't just compromising academic integrity, it risks sacrificing academics entirely. For the sake of education nationwide, SACS needs to show some muscle and hit *** where it really hurts. On the off chance anything remotely similar is going on elsewhere, this is the only thing that would really shut it down. If *** loses or has some kind of probation applied to their accreditation, presidents at D1 schools everywhere will be going with a fine tooth comb to make sure they aren't next, and as someone who values education more than college athletics I think it is important that it happens.
They were already put on probation after the Martin report.

EDIT: I lied...they were "monitored" not put on probation: http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/06/20/2977833_unc-ch-will-be-monitored-not-sanctioned.html?rh=1

I think warning or probation is a likely outcome here.

http://www.sacscoc.org/pdf/081705/sanction%20policy.pdf

[Scorp4me]

Maybe they'll learn humility? Humility??? Oh if only that were possible feelings maybe different. There are a few good fans out there and I feel kinda bad for them, but as a fan base...how can you???

[OldPhiKap]

Maybe they'll learn humility? Humility??? Oh if only that were possible feelings maybe different. There are a few good fans out there and I feel kinda bad for them, but as a fan base...how can you???

Yeah. This kind of makes it hard for me.

[hudlow]

If it wasn't for "The Carolina Way" and that "...then why is the sky Carolina Blue?" BS I might feel just a little sorry.

But naaaah. They own it.

[Chicago 1995]

Not one bit of mourning or sympathy.

Not one little bit.

[throatybeard]

Spending two decades dealing with UNC fans on the Internet led me to expect the worst from anyone associated with UNC athletics, so they weren't really capable of disappointment. The university is another matter, but this still looks like a case of athletics corrupting an academic department, regardless of what UNC's PR people would have you believe.

This. If you're one of their sports fans, I have no sympathy for your fandom.

I'll tell you who I have sympathy for. One of my sister's HS friends who went there and majored in AfAm studies. She now has to deal with fairly racialist assaults from Duke and State fans about the alleged illegitimacy of the field itself. She's not even a sports fan, so it's not like she's "benefiting" from those 2005 and 2009 banners. But now everyone and their dog is calling into question the integrity of her degree.

Athletics corrupting an academic department, exactly. This happened at Auburn. For some reason, no one is talking about it anymore. I find that a far bigger problem than Cam Newton receiving a mafia handshake.

I'm known as a sports fan in my social circles, and when I came to UMSL, people said "but you don't have big time sports," as if this was some kind of a drawback. Yes. Thank God, we don't. The women's soccer goalie took two of my classes in, I think, Fall 2012. Nice girl. I think she did OK, but I can't remember. I'm all about that vague, bout that vague, no FERPA. This is the most high-profile athlete I've had in class.

What amazes me the most is that PSU and Carolina will basically skate on all this, long term.

[revmel53]

I appreciation almost all of the responses, because we are all taking this seriously, and projecting numerous implications - to the state of sport here, lack of respect for the whole of our state university system, rivalries, etc. I have lived in North Carolina all my life, and there has always been condescension from the horde of light blue grads and supporters. It basically went that: anyone with class would only follow the public school that did everything the right way, and always won. And because of state of journalism in NC, with the only decent school of journalism being at UNC, everything written had/has a light blue spin. That continues even today. Various UNC scandals have been in the news now for several years, but very little villification (sp?) has occurred. What's mainly been shared with the public is that this were separate, isolated experiences fomented by a few individuals who were acting on their own (without knowledge of coaches, etc. - which in any realist discussion is ludicrous.) But now the Wannstein Report (even with what, in my opinion, amounts to insider trading) says that 1,500 athletes were part of the scandalous, imaginary program. That's unacceptable. Should those kids have their degrees revoked? After having had the squeaky clean Carolina Way shoved down my throat all my life, it is hard to mourn the tarnishing of the public persona of the university. Actually, I'm mourning because it seems the embarrassment of the scandal hasn't gained the traction it deserves. Schools have received the death penalty for what I believe were far less pervasive fraud.

[77devil]

I suspect many younger UNC grads with majors outside of AFAM are also concerned about the reputation of a UNC degree. I know a few and have compassion for them. It's been my experience that the most alumni are generally reasonable about their fandom as opposed to the fans who have no connection to the school other than living in the state. For this latter group of obnoxious ignorants I have no sympathy. Let them wallow.

Society has a short attention span. Does anybody outside State College talk anymore about the Sandusky scandal? But I think UNC will suffer more. It's been four years of disgrace and it appears there's more dirt to be uncovered.

[oldnavy]

Most of UNC fans will be unfazed by this scandal.

Most, not all but most believe that the whole mess is the fault of NCSU, the NCAA or... they feel that EVERYBODY does this so what's the big deal?

Hard to muster up any sympathy for the arrogant or those who chose to not see this for what it really is.

[sammy3469]

I'm in the camp that until the Folt takes some meaningful steps to reform the university, I'll just continue to heap scorn on them. The university's leadership has been complicit in the cover-up for the past 4 years (did they not even look at some of these e-mails back then or in the 4 years since?) and until some real meaningful steps are taken to face up to what they did, correct the problems, and fire those that were personally responsible or should have known, I'll continue to think nothing has changed. This is still a place where the AD's first response after the report was released is to basically tell everyone the NCAA will have to rip the banners down and publically back the baseball coach. This is still a place that employs Boxill. This is still a place that has a basketball coach that is either flat out lying to everyone or is too shallow to question anything. The cesspool's still there and until it's gone I won't shed a tear for them. They're still trying to mitigate the punishment and claim ignorance at the highest level. It's just galling and at this point if it takes the death penalty for them to clean their act up, so be it.

And yes, I'm shocked at the scope, but the scary thing is this is probably only about half the iceberg.

[elvis14]

First, I'd like to reserve a seat next to devildeac, weezie, wilko, Henderson and moonpie. I don't mourn for UNC. I've lived here for too long heard too much from their fans. For the past 4 years all I've heard from them is that they aren't doing anything that every other school isn't doing. They just got caught and they think the fans at Pack Pride need to stop being petty.


Actually, I'm mourning because it seems the embarrassment of the scandal hasn't gained the traction it deserves. Schools have received the death penalty for what I believe were far less pervasive fraud.

I share revmel53's concern that nothing significant will come from this. The NCAA is just so unpredictable. I'd like the the titles vacated at the very least. The UNC spin machine will continue to work and the UNC-CHeaters fans will buy it hook, line and sinker. Just the other day a friend of mine on Facebook posted saying that Pat Forde has no integrity because of an article he posted on UNC-CHeaters. The lack of integrity of UNC has already been dismissed.

I'm enjoying this and I hope it gets worse before it gets better.

[wilson]

Add me to the chorus of voices who don't sympathize at all. I too feel utter disdain for the "victimized" heel fans, whose tune has suddenly changed from a haughty, "We do things the right way" to "It wasn't really that bad and people are just jealous and vindictive."

But let's be real: While I'm still hopeful that the NCAA will assess significant punishment upon unc, they will not get the death penalty. Several posters have commented on the schools (plural) who've received the death penalty in the past, but in fact, it has only happened once on any significant scale, with SMU football in the 1980s. Kentucky's troubles in the early 1950s are in the too-distant past to bear upon the current situation, and in every other case, the NCAA has stopped short of assessing the true, full death penalty. It ain't happening this time either.

[Faustus]

I still remember, years and years ago (probably 1970s), there was a halftime interview at one of the holiday period basketball games on the UNC radio network. They were playing Vermont or some other small-time school who came down there for the sure loss and accompanying paycheck, and their AD or some other PR guy was the guest, saying the appropriate nice things to the host, including saluting the 'class' of the UNC organization, to which the UNC radio guy with charactaristic smugness promptly replied, oozing with superiority, "Well that's very classy of you to say how much class we have." Just appalling (and they were probably cheating then too), the overblown conceitedness and almost pathological narcissism of that place that I have always encountered for decades.

No, I don't mourn for their impending downfall one tiny bit. I want as close to maximum punishment as possible, even as Eisenhower did to German residents near the concentration camps they lived near by - forcing them to walk through and see what had transpired there so they could no longer deny it ever had been going on in their town, as many UNC hard-core fans already are doing. And it should be good for all college athletics everywhere as well. The tail has been wagging the dog far too much in many universities.

[devil84]

I'm shocked at the scope of the issue. Eighteen years...EIGHTEEN YEARS! So many students, so many "student"-athletes, so many classes...and it's not just AFAM.

As for the Carolina fans (whether the obnoxious fans who never went there or the smug, sanctimonious, arrogant alumni), no punishment for Carolina will be enough, IMHO. I don't ever want to hear "The Carolina Way" uttered in a prideful sense again. May they face the fact that they aren't "all that" anymore, and never were. The schadenfreude is just a little sweeter when this story just keeps unfolding and expanding on the national news and in so many non-sports outlets.

But there's another side: there are some Carolina alumni and current students who are not the obnoxious Carolina Fan. There are some that couldn't care less about the sports teams, and others who went there because that's the in-state school that has their particular major. Those people will have a lot of explaining to do because their degrees are devalued. In particular, I feel for those AFAM majors who obtained their degrees the right way, perhaps without knowledge of the sham taking place in their department.

As far as the Duke-Carolina rivalry is concerned, I'm finding myself very, very angry at UNC. Livid. Furious. I respected the institution for doing things the right way. That made the rivalry the best ever: a top public school and a top private school, 10 miles apart, different shades of blue, with real student-athletes battling it out on the court/gridiron/field/diamond, and doing so at the highest level of competition, particularly in men's and women's basketball. I took pride in the rivalry being so intense in field of play AND THE CLASSROOM. That's what set us apart from all the other "great rivalries." And now UNC is the laughingstock of academia. They may face athletic sanctions that could see them at the bottom of the league for years; even without those sanctions, recruits might rather take their services to a team that isn't known for the greatest academic and athletic scandal ever. They could even face academic sanctions that are far worse for the flagship university of my beloved state.

I'm really infuriated that our rival is the nation's academic and athletic laughingstock. The Carolina Way used to mean something good and that was an important part of the rivalry. Now it's the punchline for a myriad of jokes. To find out that they cheated to such depths and breadths...I'm so angry. At least they kept to "The Carolina Way" such that media outlets are looking through the thesaurus for superlatives to explain the vastness of the scandal /sigh/.

The Carolina I knew has died. As much as I hated them, I respected them. I mourn for the Carolina that was...and I'm angry that there's been a charade in place for 18 years and I should have mourned it 18 years ago. That said, the schadenfreude is quite sweet for those irritating fans and alumni that have been so annoying over the years.

GTHC, GTH.

[JasonEvans]

My kids go to a small high school in Atlanta. Only about 60-70 kids per grade so we are in the smallest classification of schools. My sons play basketball, soccer, and baseball. We regularly compete with schools that are twice our size. As a result, our sports teams generally win no more than maybe half our games, which is fine. We aren't about trying to win state titles.

One thing I have always thought when we play one of the much bigger schools, especially the ones who recruit athletes, is that a loss doesn't really bother me or my sons because we know we are not playing the same game as our opponents. We refuse to compromise the makeup of our student body by recruiting kids who don't have the same academic focus/interest as their classmates. So, the school with three kids of 6-8 who can't spell whups us in basketball -- who cares? They took little pleasure from the win and we took little pain from the loss. The bottom line is that the two teams are not playing by the same rules so competition is sorta meaningless.

I sorta feel something similar about Carolina now. They were not playing by the same rules as everyone else for the past two decades. At the time we thought they were but now we know the truth. Heck, if anything it is embarrassing that Carolina wasn't better at basketball and football when they removed the entire education burden from the student-athlete equation. I mean, our kids are studying, doing required readings/problem sets, taking tests, and all that silly other edjamacashun stuff while their kids are doing nothing. UNC should be ashamed that they could not win even more often than they did.

--Jason "I want to thank everyone for the many thoughtful responses to my initial query. I'm really enjoying this thread" Evans

[Merlindevildog91]

Even in the face of the evidence, ALL I heard last weekend is, "everyone is doing it, so they shouldn't be punished."

One such misguided person is a small business owner who I consider a good friend, but by the time she said it, I had heard it one too many times. So I told her, "the last year we have records for, the Walmart in my county lost $700,000 to theft and embezzlement. So by that logic, I can take all the product on that shelf (pointing) and walk out without any repercussions."

They are dead to me.

[WillJ]

I do not mourn for UNC. To the contrary, my instinct is to get out the metaphorical bulldozers and salt. Rome, Carthage, that kind of stuff.

[jacone21]

For me, it brings to mind a colloquialism about horses and riding in on them.

[BD80]

For me, it brings to mind a colloquialism about horses and riding in on them.

No horses, legs too long - run too fast.

Sheep however ... (just don't pick the ugly one)

[WiJoe]

I'm wondering how the rest of you feel about something that just occurred to me fairly recently.

I don't think I had any idea how bad this scandal was until the Wainstein report came out. I mean, I knew about a lot of this stuff, as we all did, but it is so much more concrete now and it is far worse than I had imagined.

The fact that there are emails talking about specific grades the players need, the fact that there are PowerPoint slides detailing the scope of the academic fraud to members of the athletic department, and the fact that the director of UNC's center for ethics was not only complicit in all this but actually seemed to be in one of the people engineering some of the worst of the fraud is just unbelievable. I mean, how much worse could it be? I suppose there could be emails from coaches like Dean or Roy that directly implicate them. That would be worse. I was going to say it would be worse if there was evidence that some kids who wanted an education were forced into the sham classes and did not get an education as a result, but we know that exact thing did happen (recall that Sean May interview where he said he wanted to major in communications but was told to get a degree is AFAM instead -- why aren't more people writing about this?!?!).

Bottom line though --did any of you suspect that it was as bad as this? When all this started it was just some football players getting to go to parties and maybe being funneled a little bit of money through an assistant coach who was secretly on the payroll of an agent. And we all thought that was a really bad scandal. compared to this, that's freaking jaywalking.

Think for a moment about what college athletics have gone through in the past few years. Penn State and UNC were two of the paragons of virtue in the athletic world; two schools that succeeded on the field and had great track records of graduation and producing quality people as well. If you had told me to name two schools that would commit the two worst scandals in modern memory, UNC and Penn State wouldn't have been in the first 50 schools I guessed.

It really is sad. And while I may be in the minority in saying this, I think it taints the amazing rivalry we have with them as well. I used to be known around here (thanks to the many UNC alums in my family) for being a bit of a Carolina apologist. I'm not anymore. My feelings toward them have really changed...

...and I mourn for the days when I actually respected them.

-Jason "so sad..." Evans

--note: I'll probably merge this back into the other scandal thread in a bit, but wanted it to stand alone for a little while at least. This is about respect and shock, not the details of what has been revealed or what should be done to them as punishment--

perception/hype is NOT reality

[J.Blink]

This. If you're one of their sports fans, I have no sympathy for your fandom.

I'll tell you who I have sympathy for. One of my sister's HS friends who went there and majored in AfAm studies. She now has to deal with fairly racialist assaults from Duke and State fans about the alleged illegitimacy of the field itself. She's not even a sports fan, so it's not like she's "benefiting" from those 2005 and 2009 banners. But now everyone and their dog is calling into question the integrity of her degree.

Throaty,

I am normally very much onboard with what you write. I'm not quite sure what you're saying here, however (and I'm not sure if racialist and racist are synonymous?). What are Duke and State fans saying about the field itself that is offensive? I've definitely seen some posters on DBR who have expressed skepticism about the difficulty of the field (including at Duke), and I agree with them. I was in several AAAS classes at Duke and they were amongst the easiest classes I ever took. The history classes I took that were cross-listed in AAAS were much more rigorous. I am absolutely not calling into question the validity of the field itself, nor have I seen others do that--I'm curious to hear what is being said.

I do feel sorry for the UNC AfAm studies majors who were serious students, worked hard, liked their field, and didn't cheat. Sucks for them to caught up in this. The unfortunate reality is that their degrees have been called into question not by unfair fans, but by serious malfeasance at the university.

This is why I think the pain has to be shared not just by athletes and a few scapegoat administrators but by the university as a whole. There's just too much money and fandom in the way. To clear out this mess, everybody needs some kind of skin in the game.

[johnb]

If this had happened at Duke, I'd hope that we would disband basketball and football for a couple of years regardless of what the NCAA did. At the least, I'd hope that we would do away with special admits, jettison everyone who should have dealt with the problem proactively and strongly consider leaving the ACC. If this had happened at Duke, and we dragged our feet like Carolina did, I'd already be mortified. And if this had happened at Duke, and we now have a horrendous report funded by ourselves, and we didn't have a strikingly strong reaction regardless of NCAA penalties, I'd be shocked and saddened and would help lead the charge to remove the Board of Trustees and president (much less the athletic department, coaches, etc).

I don't view this as a victory against Carolina. This doesn't help us. This isn't a positive. This is a systematic violation of the central purpose of a school. Sure, kids with athletic talents get special breaks in admission, in tuition, and in academic support, but this passes the line in the sand and exposes the entire enterprise. If this is standard throughout the country, then bring out the facts, and pull down the whole structure.

By the way, I happened to have gone to a high school in Dallas that was probably similar to Jason's kids' school. Academically focused, with 80ish boys in a grade. But the school, through no help from me, annually wins a large number of its sporting matches. Some is because the school plays sports unfamiliar to Texans (water polo, crew, and lacrosse, anyone?), but also because there is presumably some recruiting going on (2 alums were playing in the Cardinal/Eagle game on Sunday, while another is probably Stanford's best current football player). I have no idea whether they were recruited, but if they're good enough to start for NFL teams, you can imagine how they did against the sort of schools portrayed in Rushmore. Nevertheless, the 3 guys I mentioned all rocked out in college, winning multiple academic and leadership awards, in addition to being football gods. If they were recruited to my high school, that seems fine to me (and it was fun to watch our teams crush those of our rivals). But there aren't a whole lot of guys in the world like Duke players or the guys from my high school (Sam and Emanuel Acho or Ty Montgomery). And if Duke (or Carolina) can't recruit that relatively small number of guys who can actually succeed in college, then they just have to lose more games. That has to be the Carolina (or Duke) way. And if it's not, the state government, the alums, and the Board have to have the guts to shut down the circus.

[BD80]

I'm wondering how the rest of you feel about something that just occurred to me fairly recently.

I don't think I had any idea how bad this scandal was until the Wainstein report came out. I mean, I knew about a lot of this stuff, as we all did, but it is so much more concrete now and it is far worse than I had imagined.

... I think it taints the amazing rivalry we have with them as well. I used to be known around here (thanks to the many UNC alums in my family) for being a bit of a Carolina apologist. I'm not anymore. My feelings toward them have really changed...

...and I mourn for the days when I actually respected them.

-Jason "so sad..." Evans ...

You really can't be all that surprised. During the 2009 title run, there were interviews with Tyler freaking Hansbrough - arguably the least likely AFAM major on the planet - about his Swahili independent studies. The whole team was listed as majoring in AFAM. Even ol' roy realized that it was too obvious to continue (once he got that title with players he recruited). FWIW I understand that ol' roys' Wainstein interviews are being used in the upcoming film Dumb and Dumber To.

I share your feelings toward unc, but I would describe my feelings more as bitterness. The mutual respect was something that elevated the rivalry above all other rivalries in sport, and that has been stripped away. The cheating reduces unc to the lowest of the lows. The refusal to fess up and disgorge the ill-gotten booty ($s, wins, banners) reveals the intentional nature of the cheating. If it truly was just a few rogue actors, wouldn't an upstanding institution demand that things be put right?

[Kedsy]

As far as the Duke-Carolina rivalry is concerned, I'm finding myself very, very angry at UNC. Livid. Furious. I respected the institution for doing things the right way. That made the rivalry the best ever: a top public school and a top private school, 10 miles apart, different shades of blue, with real student-athletes battling it out on the court/gridiron/field/diamond, and doing so at the highest level of competition, particularly in men's and women's basketball. I took pride in the rivalry being so intense in field of play AND THE CLASSROOM. That's what set us apart from all the other "great rivalries." And now UNC is the laughingstock of academia.

I'll start out by saying I don't mourn for them at all. And I share your shock at the scope of this thing (which undoubtedly is even deeper than we know now).

But as far as the rivalry goes, I don't necessarily agree. It's not gone; it can stay special. It's just that instead of two mirror images battling it out from 10 miles away, it's two complete opposites -- a true good vs. evil matchup -- staring each other down across 11 miles of battle zone. It's still compelling; the hate's still there. Crushing them will still taste sweet.

That's my take, anyway.

[gus]

...majored in AfAm studies. She now has to deal with fairly racialist assaults from Duke and State fans about the alleged illegitimacy of the field itself. ... But now everyone and their dog is calling into question the integrity of her degree

This is one of the things I'm upset about here: this scandal is tarnishing an important academic field by association. It's hard to get into this without veering into verboten territory.

[gus]

there were interviews with Tyler freaking Hansbrough - arguably the least likely AFAM major on the planet - about his Swahili independent studies.

You don't have to be black to be an AFAM scholar.

[Duvall]

This is one of the things I'm upset about here: this scandal is tarnishing an important academic field by association. It's hard to get into this without veering into verboten territory.

That discussion goes directly to the heart of the way we as Duke fans talk about one of the biggest stories in college sports today and in ACC history. I can't imagine why it would be forbidden here.

[gus]

Throaty,

I am normally very much onboard with what you write. I'm not quite sure what you're saying here, however (and I'm not sure if racialist and racist are synonymous?). What are Duke and State fans saying about the field itself that is offensive?

I don't know how Throaty intended it to be interpreted. In the 60s, "Racialist" was used in contexts that "racist" is used today. But I think there is now a distinction between the two terms. "Racist" implies strong value judgment based on race (and to me, strong *negative* value judgment). "Racialist" is more neutral, non value-laden term. My interpretation is not necessarily universal, but Wikipedia has this to say (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racialism):


Kwame Anthony Appiah summarized Du Bois' position in his 1992 book In my father's house. According to Appiah's interpretation of DuBois' theory, racialism is value neutral and racism is value charged.

[BD80]

You don't have to be black to be an AFAM scholar.

Tyler grew up in "The Gateway to the Ozarks" in an area 85% white and 10% black. His father is a doctor specializing in orthopedics. About as upper middle class white as you can get. I'm not saying he couldn't have been interested in African American Studies, it just seemed to me at the time it was more likely that there was a nefarious reason since his teammates were also AFAM majors. If it had been Tyler alone, I would have applauded the choice, but given the entirety of the circumstances, my skepticism meter went off. Independent study in Swahili when he admitted he spoke NO Swahili?

That is another element to the unc crime, utilizing a program like AFAM to shield the cheating from scrutiny, allowing people to give into knee-jerk reactions and raise the issue of race.

Tyler's complicity in the cheating, and his mother's complicity in unc financial shenanigans, reflect poorly on ND alum, brother Ben. At least at ND they kick out their cheaters and make them reapply.

[Mal]

It's still compelling; the hate's still there. Crushing them will still taste sweet.

I guess that's true, but I'm closer to devil84's position. I liked that we respected UNC as an academic rival as well as a sporting rival. It's what made Duke/UNC more compelling than Duke/NCSt.

In the bigger picture, this is going to affect Duke, as well. The rivalry has been one of the biggest beating hearts of college basketball's commercial appeal for the last 20 years. It's been incessantly hyped annually, to the point where casual and even non fans know when the two of us are playing one another. I would suggest that a large part of the appeal to the general public of that game has stemmed in recent years from feeling comfortable pulling for UNC for two nights a year, because they hate us so much. Now, we both wear the black hat in the minds of the unaffiliated, so the game itself is tarnished. Most of the world outside North Carolina will see two evil empires and wish for a power outage. The tone of the coverage of our games will have to change, too. It's no longer two programs known for doing things the right way, graduating players and maintaining a good academic/athletics balance. One of the two is now a laughingstock academically, and every broadcast of every UNC basketball game for the next decade, minimum, will include some mention of this. As that rivalry loses some of its luster, it fades in importance nationally, etc. Query whether this might actually be a good thing for Duke on balance, I guess. Maybe we even win a few converts back, and maybe we benefit from fading into the scenery a bit for a few years in terms of quelling the irrational Duke Hate.

[miramar]

As bad as the report is, it really doesn't get to the bottom of this mess, which suggests to me that UNC is only owning up to as much blame as they can get away with. The report basically says that only two people, both retired, are responsible for this mess, and even then it suggests that they were only cheating in order to help students in need. And then the university says that they will fire or censure only nine people, and I think one of them doesn't work there any more. So I guess that only eight current employees really knew about the 3,000 students who took bogus classes, despite the power point presentation that confirms that the scandal was common knowledge in the athletic department.

I think that there will still be stink bombs going off in Chapel Hill at least into 2015, especially if the NCAA gets involved, which means that the Duke-Carolina rivalry will turn into the Duke-University of Nonexistent Classes game, which is a shame.

So while the rivalry may lose some of its luster, I truly believe that they deserve whatever blame or punishment they get. And I'm still waiting for UNC to fire or censure somebody important. For example, will the president or a board member come out and say that ol' Roy was absolutely derelict in his duties to allow practically an entire team to declare a bogus major? Will Roy tell his former student-athletes to release their transcripts, even if they have to redact the names? Will a former superstar, such as MJ, call out the team? Will an upset parent say that Williams sat in the family's living room and assured everyone that their son would get a first rate education, and as it turns out he didn't even go to class? Will the university reach a settlement and make an apology to Mary Willingham?

I won't hold my breath.

[The Gordog]

It would be impossible for me to agree with this more.... Couldnt happen to a more deserving fan base.

Let the ridicule begin...
Check the clip about 2 or 3 min in on what they say about UNC...
https://screen.yahoo.com/snl/weekend-part-1-071017715.html

This.

I have not respected UNC in any way shape or form for some time. I guess the last straw was when that student was severely beaten on the UNCheat campus a few years ago. The reason for our rivalry has always been geopgraphy and any nonsense that they are "two sides of the same coin" is hogwash. I used to think, well they have good professors, so even if the average student is somewhat dim, a good student could still get a good education. I no longer believe that. The over abundance of 'circle the wagons' attitude by the school from top to bottom is an indictment of every facet of the place.

I think it hurts Duke because we are located in North Carolina and the whole darn state has a black eye due to this outrage. That is the only thing I am sad about.

Any sport that had atheletes in these classes should be sanctioned, loose their titles, lose some scholarships, have to pay back the money, ... but I guess that's for another thread.

[Gewebe14]

I can't bring myself to mourn this. They are (still!!!) so smug and brought everything on themselves by institutionalizing cheating for 20 years.

2nd of all - I never thought the day would come when I considered the Helms banner WAY more legit than the '93, '05, and '09 ones!

[Kimist]

I've enjoyed reading these posts. Like many here, I do have somewhat conflicting emotions.

Having lived in NC since...well, before Kennedy was president...I've always enjoyed the nature of the rivalry. Even though it was tough to admit it, unc (as an academic institution) is (was?) generally thought of as one of the best. For a tax-paying resident of NC who can get in-state tuition rates at unc and its sister schools, it is money well spent on a quality education. A family member was accepted to chapel heel, which I considered an accomplishment at the time. That person chose to attend another school (think Boone) and loved it there.

Yes, the rivalry was the rivalry. Good-natured but rabid, "I actually have friends who went to (unc or State or whatever)" types of comments, and an occasional wager of some sorts with the winners always needling the losers at work on Monday morning. Life was good.

But, like some scenes from "The Walking Dead," some folks have apparently been bitten by "the carolina way" walkers and turned. Any common decency and/or respect for their competitors has vanished. Shall I even mention the views generally expressed on IC?? The holier-than-thou "carolina way" has been shoved in my face just too many times by too many people. Those of you who live in NC can definitely understand. I've actually backed off on my contact with a couple of former friends who could do nothing but remind me of how Duke cheats, Coach K's "fake" back issues and he dyes his hair and he curses, etc., as well as the ever-present "but everyone else does it!!!!" while the smoke started rising from the stench now originating in Orange County.

My level of "schadenfreudeiness" (did I just create a new word?) has been rising to new levels as the revelations of what has occurred finally come to light. I'm pretty much to the stage of I don't give a (lesser) hoot about unc, and will cherish any opportunity to see ever more pain inflicted on their arrogant fans. With due deference to my many friends who possess a (at the time, "well-earned") degree from unc, that's just the way I now feel and let ALL of them dig their own graves. I'm tired of hearing from them.

As for how all of this impacts our rivalry....interesting concept. I can understand the issues related to dealing with a bunch of (proven!) cheaters versus continuing interactions between two class institutions. At least for now, I can lean toward the trend that the nature of rivalry is tainted. Whether that is temporary or permanent remains to be seen.

So, as they say, "in conclusion," I would have no problems for creating a "NOT our rivals" program for the unc opponents. Sure, beat them at every opportunity we get, but the message would be clear. I could even envision an appropriate t-shirt or Cameron/Wally Wade cheer.

And, one other suggestion: I would offer to the powers-that-be who compose dictionaries, that a new, all-encompassing sub-definition of "arrogance" be included. What would such be? Simply -- "The carolina Way."

Hope I didn't step on anyone's toes here.

k

[devil84]

I'll start out by saying I don't mourn for them at all. And I share your shock at the scope of this thing (which undoubtedly is even deeper than we know now).

But as far as the rivalry goes, I don't necessarily agree. It's not gone; it can stay special. It's just that instead of two mirror images battling it out from 10 miles away, it's two complete opposites -- a true good vs. evil matchup -- staring each other down across 11 miles of battle zone. It's still compelling; the hate's still there. Crushing them will still taste sweet.

That's my take, anyway.

Oh, to be sure, I'll still enjoy crushing the pasty blue. And yes, it's now a true good vs. evil matchup (though, in the eyes of those outside of NC, it's probably an evil-evil matchup).

But I need to mourn the "old" rivalry. It takes time. I'm still mourning the old 8 team ACC...

[Duvall]

One of the two is now a laughingstock academically, and every broadcast of every UNC basketball game for the next decade, minimum, will include some mention of this.

That seems pretty unlikely. This is UNC, not Duke - ESPN is probably working on its rehabilitation narrative already.

[_Gary]

wilko and Hendo, come sit over here next to me.

Is there room in the choir for one more? Please, please, please let me squeeze in.

I will NEVER... I repeat, NEVER... Feel bad for UNC. Not going to happen this side of the Apocalypse and Second Coming. My only desire now is that they are stripped of their 1993, 2005 and 2009 titles. I want this to reach back and grab hold of everyone from Dean through Roy. And anyone else that they can think of. Heck, I hope they find out the great one himself, Mr Jordan, took some fake classes so his record can be besmirched.

Am I going too far? :p

[hurleyfor3]

That seems pretty unlikely. This is UNC, not Duke - ESPN is probably working on its rehabilitation narrative already.

They're already on it with the Grantland article today.

[grit74]

The supposed Jordan transcript which hung in his restaurant and was later auctioned, shows that Jordan took four classes in the first summer session in 1986. That is a heavy load. One of those was a Special Studies class, which was the precursor to Independent Studies. Did UNC have a limit on summer session classes in 1986? My suspicion, of course, is that Jordan was allowed to exceed the normal limit.

Further, he took a Religion course in the Fall Semester, 1986, to complete his degree. How did he do that from Chicago?




Is there room in the choir for one more? Please, please, please let me squeeze in.

I will NEVER... I repeat, NEVER... Feel bad for UNC. Not going to happen this side of the Apocalypse and Second Coming. My only desire now is that they are stripped of their 1993, 2005 and 2009 titles. I want this to reach back and grab hold of everyone from Dean through Roy. And anyone else that they can think of. Heck, I hope they find out the great one himself, Mr Jordan, took some fake classes so his record can be besmirched.

Am I going too far? :p

[uh_no]

The supposed Jordan transcript which hung in his restaurant and was later auctioned, shows that Jordan took four classes in the first summer session in 1986. That is a heavy load. One of those was a Special Studies class, which was the precursor to Independent Studies. Did UNC have a limit on summer session classes in 1986? My suspicion, of course, is that Jordan was allowed to exceed the normal limit.

Further, he took a Religion course in the Fall Semester, 1986, to complete his degree. How did he do that from Chicago?

At many places there are 2 summer sessions...i'm not sure taking two classes in each session is out of the realm of possibility.

[Kfanarmy]

I spent quite a while getting tangled up in the question. What is there to mourn?

I have to understand what drove this whole fiasco. What was the motivation? What was the great worth for which someone initiated the scheme to become more athletically competitive by shattering academic standards for a few athletes. Why was it necessary for UNC athletes to have less and less academic rigor; less time in the classroom; less education?

Their education was traded for more time in the weight room and more time in practice it would seem.

At its heart, I've come to believe this isn't about money. It isn't about matriculating struggling athletes through an education system that they were unprepared for. It has little to do with any specific department at UNC - AFAM is just where a cancer started. This scandal is all about wins and losses; Its about national championships and rivalries. It is Winning at any cost and refusing to be supplanted at the top of college basketball nationally! in the ACC! in North Carolina! by anyone and especially by Duke!

They engineered a scheme to win.
They engineered a scheme to beat Duke.
They engineered a scheme to get more out of their players and to give them less in return.

When other coaches at UNC saw an easier path to success they joined in.
When other students saw an easier path to graduation they joined in.
Administrators, professors, alum, and students basked in headlines.
Coaches wrapped themselves in the glory of a rabid fan base and national attention.

Television interviewers noted the unusual number of players taking AFAM classes, yet the machinery kept churning. There were no checkups. No one wanted to know why.

Until a thread was pulled. A smallish case about improper benefits ultimately unraveled the whole system.

I cannot believe UNC coaches were unaware, in the beginning, in the middle or at any point in this scandal.
I don’t believe that there were many students in AFAM studies that didn’t realize there were some unusually easy classes available in their major – they either took advantage or looked the other way.

There may have been, and may be, a large number of people associated with UNC who were, who are, disinterested in college sports. For those people this is a tragedy.

But what is there to mourn? It is the death of a type of innocence: the joy of competing on a level field against a respected, formidable and familiar foe. It is not being able to thrust or parry a jab over the results with respect for the game, the participants, and fellow fans.

Jealousy and poor sportsmanship. A few adults introduced a cancer to their university. Like a cancer, the corruption has ravaged the academic core of UNC and most everything associated with it, including the rivalry.

Is it dead? No. I don’t think so.

It is certainly on life support and it won’t ever be exactly the same, but I believe UNC will be healthy again. Its reputation can be revived, academic standing restored.

It is going to need a strong dose of medicine and some serious monitoring for recurrence because there are always a few bad cells around.
I hope the patient will take the medicine voluntarily.

I can understand your mourning over the rivalry, but take heart I believe it will be healthy again.

I wonder how many other universities need a checkup. How about Duke?

[grit74]

At many places there are 2 summer sessions...i'm not sure taking two classes in each session is out of the realm of possibility.

uh_no, I clearly wrote that Jordan's transcript shows four courses in the first Summer Session.

UNC would have had two sessions, and two courses a session would a doable maximum load(I did that myself at another university).

The transcript specifies which Summer Session, in each summer that Jordan took classes.

[Kedsy]

There may have been, and may be, a large number of people associated with UNC who were, who are, disinterested in college sports. For those people this is a tragedy.

A tragedy? Really? I could see calling it an embarrassment, a black eye, a shocking, annoying, depressing moment. But for Carolina students or alumni who are disinterested in college sports, where's the true harm? We can say it "devalues" the degrees of people who graduated from UNC from 1993 to 2011, but what practical effect is there? Will people suddenly get fired from their job because the UNC degree they've had for ten years has been devalued? Will their spouse's leave them? Will they catch disfiguring diseases?

It's a talking point. People will get teased, possibly ridiculed. They won't feel as good about wearing that ugly-colored shirt. They might not be able to brag to their neighbors about one thing or another. But speaking only for myself, I can't see any "tragedy" here.

[uh_no]

A tragedy? Really?

He was working off the Ol' Roy definition of tragedy.

[Kedsy]

He was working off the Ol' Roy definition of tragedy.

Yeah, I wanted to work Haiti into my post, but went with disfiguring diseases instead.

[hurleyfor3]

A tragedy? Really? I could see calling it an embarrassment, a black eye, a shocking, annoying, depressing moment. But for Carolina students or alumni who are disinterested in college sports, where's the true harm? We can say it "devalues" the degrees of people who graduated from UNC from 1993 to 2011, but what practical effect is there? Will people suddenly get fired from their job because the UNC degree they've had for ten years has been devalued? Will their spouse's leave them? Will they catch disfiguring diseases?

What if you're interviewing for a job, working towards a promotion or applying to grad school, and one of your competitors cheated?

[miramar]

Further, he took a Religion course in the Fall Semester, 1986, to complete his degree. How did he do that from Chicago?

I'm sure that Saint Michael was simply taking advantage of his bilocation abilities, which many saints have exhibited over the centuries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilocation

[duke79]

For what it's worth, US News and World Report has come out with their Global University rankings..........Duke is number 20 and UNC is number 32........in the WORLD !! I assume the rankings were compiled BEFORE the report on UNC's academic scandal was published? LOL

[DukieInKansas]

I mourn the loss of the rivalry. As others have said, I hated Carolina but respected the program. It was a great rivalry based on two good schools with great basketball tradition. I started losing the respect for Carolina bball in 2010 when Roy started tossing the players under the bus. Now, I find it hard to respect the school.

I just discussed this with a client from the St. Louis area. She has a friend whose son is a freshman there and was feeling sorry for him, wondering how he feels about the school now. He had considered Michigan and Notre Dame but opted for Carolina. Is he sorry now?

So, I mourn the loss of the quality of the rivalry but I don't feel bad for the school. They brought this on themselves and deserve every bit of derision and scorn and punishment being sent there way. I have to admit that I feel a bit of remorse for feeling so good about their shame. (Hopefully, I can still have a seat on the bench next to Weezie et. al. despite this bit of remorse.

[Kedsy]

What if you're interviewing for a job, working towards a promotion or applying to grad school, and one of your competitors cheated?

I don't understand. Are you making an analogy? If so, I don't think it holds outside of athletic competition. Or are you talking about non-UNC graduates losing jobs to or promotions to or were passed over for cheating UNC graduates?

Unlike the athletes, I highly doubt the non-athletes who took the sham courses ever took more than one or two. They managed to pass all their other courses and almost certainly would have still graduated if they'd been forced to take one or two more real courses, perhaps with a slightly lower grade point average. So what?

If (outside the world of sports) a UNC graduate wouldn't have graduated without taking one or two sham courses, their grades (even with the sham courses) had to have been poor enough that they wouldn't be beating out too many qualified contenders for good jobs or spots in any decent grad school. And if they'd performed well enough at their jobs to be considered for promotion, I can't imagine the GPA bump they got from taking a couple fraudulent AFAM courses would have had much if anything to do with it.

Bottom line is, UNC cheated at sports. They should be punished by the ruling body that supposedly cares about cheating at sports. But unless college sports rules your world, I just can't see the tragedy here.

[Kfanarmy]

A tragedy? Really? I could see calling it an embarrassment, a black eye, a shocking, annoying, depressing moment. But for Carolina students or alumni who are disinterested in college sports, where's the true harm? We can say it "devalues" the degrees of people who graduated from UNC from 1993 to 2011, but what practical effect is there? Will people suddenly get fired from their job because the UNC degree they've had for ten years has been devalued? Will their spouse's leave them? Will they catch disfiguring diseases?

It's a talking point. People will get teased, possibly ridiculed. They won't feel as good about wearing that ugly-colored shirt. They might not be able to brag to their neighbors about one thing or another. But speaking only for myself, I can't see any "tragedy" here.

I certainly won't equate the devaluing of one's degree to chernobyl, but I do think it is tragic. My guess is that there are more than a few young people who had to work multiple jobs, keep their heads in the books, and generally work their behinds off to get their degree. I think it is tragic to sully the sense of pride they have in their alma mater and subject them to ridicule. And I don't think it takes a great deal of empathy to recognize that this situation will hurt a lot of bystanders.

[Kedsy]

I certainly won't equate the devaluing of one's degree to chernobyl, but I do think it is tragic. My guess is that there are more than a few young people who had to work multiple jobs, keep their heads in the books, and generally work their behinds off to get their degree. I think it is tragic to sully the sense of pride they have in their alma mater and subject them to ridicule. And I don't think it takes a great deal of empathy to recognize that this situation will hurt a lot of bystanders.

OK, I hear you, but I'm having trouble equating a bruised ego or a sullied sense of self-worth with my understanding of a true tragedy.

And even beyond that, my guess is the young (or formerly young) people to whom you refer still feel plenty good about their achievement. They know that they, themselves, didn't cheat. They may be annoyed or p*ssed off, or even sad about it; they may get heckled by alums of rival colleges; but assuming up until now they've forged a decent life for themselves, I can't imagine this scandal is causing anyone any real hurt, other than the people who were involved in the scandal itself (who, one could argue, deserve it).

[hurleyfor3]

I don't understand. Are you making an analogy? If so, I don't think it holds outside of athletic competition. Or are you talking about non-UNC graduates losing jobs to or promotions to or were passed over for cheating UNC graduates?

The latter, also including honest unc alumni competing with cheating ones.

A lot of jobs simply require a college degree; what one majored in or what specific courses one took often doesn't matter. GPA tends not to matter past entry-level positions, but having the degree still does. I don't care whether you played sports, and don't really care whether you cheated at unc, Arizona State, or Yale; if we're competing for the same thing you're at an unfair advantage if you took fake classes to get your degree and I didn't.

I have a CFA charter. The CFA Institute is notorious for taking a hard line on any violation of its exam rules. Keep writing more than a few seconds past time is called and you get your exam voided, that kind of thing, with your next shot not coming for another year. Get caught with a cheat sheet and maybe in three years they'll let you back into the program. I am thrilled they do this because it protects the value of the work I put in honestly. A degree is no different.

[Kfanarmy]

OK, I hear you, but I'm having trouble equating a bruised ego or a sullied sense of self-worth with my understanding of a true tragedy.

And even beyond that, my guess is the young (or formerly young) people to whom you refer still feel plenty good about their achievement. They know that they, themselves, didn't cheat. They may be annoyed or p*ssed off, or even sad about it; they may get heckled by alums of rival colleges; but assuming up until now they've forged a decent life for themselves, I can't imagine this scandal is causing anyone any real hurt, other than the people who were involved in the scandal itself (who, one could argue, deserve it).

Given the emotion with which folks, whose relationship with UNC is limited to a sports rivaly, speak about this scandal, in contrast, I find it hard to imagine that it isn't causing folks some real hurt. If everyone were as calloused as the post suggests, perhaps there wouldn't be a thread on the subject at all.

[Matches]

I'm angry that my tax dollars went, in some small way, to support this crap for all this time.

I'm surprised by the extent of it. We've all known for some time that something smelled rotten here, but the extent of it is shocking to me.

I'm sad that NC's premier public institution is going to be a punchline for some time, particularly since there is a degree from that institution hanging on my office wall (grad school).

I'm indifferent to how or if they are punished. Clearly punishment of some sort is warranted but the specifics? It'll probably impact the wrong people, while the people responsible for all of this skate.

I'm over the schadenfreude. I understand the impulse but I can't laugh at this or take pride in it. It's gross.

I'm resolved that, if something like this ever happened at Duke, I would walk away from college sports and never look back. I feel bad for the UNC fans with consciences (yes, they do exist) who have been put in the position of having to feel stinky because of their choice of athletic teams.

[Kedsy]

Given the emotion with which folks, whose relationship with UNC is limited to a sports rivaly, speak about this scandal, in contrast, I find it hard to imagine that it isn't causing folks some real hurt. If everyone were as calloused as the post suggests, perhaps there wouldn't be a thread on the subject at all.

This part of the discussion arose concerning the effect outside of sports. I can see people whose lives revolve around college sports being very upset about this. I can see anyone who attended UNC being upset about this. It's just nowhere close to a tragedy in my opinion, and any hurt inflicted by the scandal pales besides the real hurt that many, many people suffer every single day.

I have a couple friends who went to UNC (and I believe both of them went there in the late Dean years, i.e., the early years of the scandal). They hate Duke as much as I despise their alma mater, so we generally tread lightly in such matters. I was trying to think how they feel about this at this point, and my guess is they're shocked, dismayed, PO'd, and probably don't want to talk about it. I highly doubt it has any effect on their lives beyond that.

[throatybeard]

I guess that's true, but I'm closer to devil84's position. I liked that we respected UNC as an academic rival as well as a sporting rival. It's what made Duke/UNC more compelling than Duke/NCSt/

That is horrendously disrespectful to the faculty and students at NC State.

What distinguishes the two rivalries is that State has had a hard time winning as much as either of their research triangle neighbors, for about a generation.


In the bigger picture, this is going to affect Duke, as well. The rivalry has been one of the biggest beating hearts of college basketball's commercial appeal for the last 20 years. It's been incessantly hyped annually, to the point where casual and even non fans know when the two of us are playing one another. I would suggest that a large part of the appeal to the general public of that game has stemmed in recent years from feeling comfortable pulling for UNC for two nights a year, because they hate us so much. Now, we both wear the black hat in the minds of the unaffiliated, so the game itself is tarnished. Most of the world outside North Carolina will see two evil empires and wish for a power outage. The tone of the coverage of our games will have to change, too. It's no longer two programs known for doing things the right way, graduating players and maintaining a good academic/athletics balance. One of the two is now a laughingstock academically, and every broadcast of every UNC basketball game for the next decade, minimum, will include some mention of this. As that rivalry loses some of its luster, it fades in importance nationally, etc. Query whether this might actually be a good thing for Duke on balance, I guess. Maybe we even win a few converts back, and maybe we benefit from fading into the scenery a bit for a few years in terms of quelling the irrational Duke Hate.

Dissent on the bold above. The Duke Lacrosse Rodeo occurred in 2006 and was completely resolved by 2007. People talked about it for a little while after that. I don't hear about it even in ESPN telecasts of Lacrosse, and haven't for a few years now. The only people I hear bringing it up are fans of opposing schools who want to be butts to me on Facebook on the three days when we won the LAX national championship. Heck, It's now possible to sit through a Penn State football telecast without Sandusky's name getting dropped, and that's been slightly less than three years. And he's, what, like the second most infamous American assaulter of underage males ever?

(I'm assuming John Wayne Gacy did enough to retain that title in perpetuity. When you start burying people under your house, that's some next-level malfeasance).

The only way the present affair gets mentioned on TV frequently in ten years is if one of the following occurs.

1) The NCAA does something so medieval to them that people are making 30for30s about it 30 years after the fact, like with SMU. As others have pointed out, SMU's fate is sui generis. We all know this won't happen to Carolina. I guess by then, they'll have a spinoff series called 40for40, to commence in 2019. I will be utterly shocked and probably fall down where I am standing if I hear the news that Carolina receives anything more than an open-handed slap to their non-shooting wrist behind this.

2) Carolina does it again. I'd rate this possibility higher than I would the possibility that the NCAA gets real. Cam Newton got six figures, and Auburn lives.

Otherwise, no one but Duke, State, and maybe Wake Forest and ECU fans will even remember this happened by 2024.

Of course, I'm the guy who said, in 2006, that the Lacrosse Rodeo,* irrespective of whether the guys were exonerated, would haunt us for the rest of my life. I was wrong about that. But I can learn from the past.


* - I like this title for it. It's purposely neutral.

[throatybeard]

I mourn the loss of the rivalry. As others have said, I hated Carolina but respected the program. It was a great rivalry based on two good schools with great basketball tradition. I started losing the respect for Carolina bball in 2010 when Roy started tossing the players under the bus. Now, I find it hard to respect the school.

I just discussed this with a client from the St. Louis area. She has a friend whose son is a freshman there and was feeling sorry for him, wondering how he feels about the school now. He had considered Michigan and Notre Dame but opted for Carolina. Is he sorry now?

So, I mourn the loss of the quality of the rivalry but I don't feel bad for the school. They brought this on themselves and deserve every bit of derision and scorn and punishment being sent there way. I have to admit that I feel a bit of remorse for feeling so good about their shame. (Hopefully, I can still have a seat on the bench next to Weezie et. al. despite this bit of remorse.

I know I keep saying this, but 2014 is the year my heart closed completely due to 38 years of ill-treatment from UNC fans, and I'm done with Carolina. I'll maintain ties with the dozen decent folk I know from there, but I am now to the point where I have no investment in the rivalry other than wanting to win so I don't have to hear from them. And I'd like the rivalry to end during my lifetime.

Dream scenario here. The SEC decides sixteen is both a power of two and an inevitable result of the current landscape. They decide to pick off research universities in I-A football located in adjacent states. There are very few attractive candidates that UF/UGA/USC would not block.

1) Texas. Texas is in the unique position of being able to abuse power so much that they've actually managed to run not one, two or three universities out of their own conference, but four. (NU, MU, CU, and A&M). Texas clearly would prefer to consolidate their big-fish power in a medium-sized pond. And their arrogance is so huge that there's no way they'd follow A&M to the SEC. The hilarious part is that their football team is terrible these days. So they're out. They wouldn't do it.

2) Oklahoma. This is plausible. I get the sense, though, that it's more important to keep hating Texas locally than to give them two raised middle fingers and make a clean break like A&M did.

AFAICT, that's a complete list of SEC-16 targets that aren't in my dream scenario. The SEC has already passed on WVU, presumably because there aren't enough televisions in that lovely state. Mizzou is just lucky that A&M split when they did, because 13 is a prime number.

The logical remainders are Carolina and one of the two Virginia schools, probably Tech, because they've already demonstrated a willingness to move, and UVA is too snobby to get mixed up with the SEC. Plus, VT is more of a football school. This would expand the SEC TV market by two states and about 18 million human beings. It also solves a really dumb problem for the SEC, which is that Mizzou has to be in the east to preserve both the Bama-Auburn and Bama-UT rivalries. (Such as the latter one is anymore). Vanderbilt and Kentucky are in the east despite being west of Auburn for exactly that reason, but that's way less absurd. Then you get:

SEC East: Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, Tennessee, Vanderbilt, Kentucky, Virginia Tech, University of Non-Classes
SEC West: Alabama, Auburn, Mississippi State, Mississippi, Louisiana State, Texas A&M, Arkansas, Missouri

The latter should be a division of the NFL. Like, soccer-style relegation. Alabama would be the first team to knock the Jacksonville Jaguars out of the NFL. The former looks pleasantly Appalachian to me, UF and USC notwithstanding. I already don't watch any basketball that doesn't involve Duke or NC State. If that SEC West existed, I might not ever watch any college football that doesn't involve Duke, NC State, or West Virginia.

It probably won't happen, but if it does, I'll be dancing naked around a naked Klemnop, wherever he is.

I just want nothing to do with Carolina, ever. Go away. Just go away. Go away and leave the rest of us alone.

[throatybeard]

He was working off the Ol' Roy definition of tragedy.

“The essence of dramatic tragedy is not unhappiness. It resides in the solemnity of the remorseless working of things.”

---Alfred North Whitehead

[Kedsy]

I just want nothing to do with Carolina, ever. Go away. Just go away. Go away and leave the rest of us alone.

Unfortunately, even your dream scenario wouldn't really end the rivalry. We'd still play them probably every year in football and once or even twice a year in basketball. Too much TV money at stake to do otherwise.

[Duvall]

Unfortunately, even your dream scenario wouldn't really end the rivalry. We'd still play them probably every year in football and once or even twice a year in basketball. Too much TV money at stake to do otherwise.

I doubt that. UNC thinks that they are above playing Duke every year in football as it is; if they went to another conference we'd never see them on the schedule again. They might be willing to play one basketball game a year around New Year's, they might not.

Unfortunately UNC leaving for the SEC could lead to Duke trading one pathologically hostile fanbase for another, as the Big Ten wouldn't have many paths left to the Old North State.

[throatybeard]

Unfortunately, even your dream scenario wouldn't really end the rivalry. We'd still play them probably every year in football and once or even twice a year in basketball. Too much TV money at stake to do otherwise.

Probably once in basketball, a la UK-Louisville or UK-Indiana. If people's feelings don't get too hurt. I don't know who's paying to see a Duke-Carolina football game, other than us.

OTOH, we now live in a world were A&M doesn't play Texas in football, Mizzou doesn't play Kansas in football, West Virginia doesn't play Penn State, Pitt or Syracuse in football, and in which, not only do Nebraska and Oklahoma not play each other in football, they agreed to be in a big conference that only let them play occasionally for about 15 years before Nebraska bounced.

I'd further submit that, if given one non-conference slot in a crowded schedule, Carolina would hang on to State before us, just to spite us.

[-jk]

...The Duke Lacrosse Rodeo occurred in 2006 and was completely resolved by 2007. People talked about it for a little while after that. I don't hear about it even in ESPN telecasts of Lacrosse, and haven't for a few years now...

Duke Lacrosse did nothing (at least as accused). UNC apparently did. Huge difference. Culpability: One fades; one lives on.

-jk

[Mal]

That is horrendously disrespectful to the faculty and students at NC State.

No it's not. The alterate theory you propose may or may not be correct (as would a theory centered around proximity). But simply noting that State doesn't have quite the same stature and reputation as the flagship does (did) and theorizing that Duke viewed Carolina as something closer to a peer academically and that may have played into the depth of the rivalry is not an abominable slight to every hardworking, bright student or prof in Raleigh. If I'd said NC State is a crummy academic institution full of idiots, that would be "horrendously disrespectful," but I said nothing of the sort. It's a fine school.


Dissent on the bold above.

Yeah, I was probably overshooting there. I don't know that the lax debacle is terribly analogous, since of course the end result there was a legal exoneration, which is a little different than a school-funded internal investigation that lays out a fat lot of admissions of institutional malfeasance for the NCAA and world to see. That, and the fact that there's likely to be a specific penalty laid on UNC, which is an easy concept to mention/discuss in a broadcast, especially when said penalties may be ongoing. In any event, as others have noted, ESPN will do its unlevel best to rehab the UNC brand as quickly as possible. I do think, however, that if there are legit sanctions levied and it either (a) impacts team quality or (b) removes a banner from the rafters, the causal link will be pointed out for awhile. Perhaps not 10 years, though.

[OldSchool]

This is just coming out, transcript of an encounter between Ol' Roy and a reporter who asked him about the Wainstein report!

Ol' Roy: "You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that demands titles, and those titles have to be won by men who can't spell! Who's gonna do it? You, snivelling reporter? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom.

"You weep for Rashad McCants and curse the advisors. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know, that illiterate players, while tragic, probably won titles. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, wins titles! You don't want the truth, because deep down in places you don't talk about at your wine and cheese parties, you want me cutting down that net. You need me cutting down that net.

"We use terms like "paper classes" and "no-show classes" and "AFAM." We use these terms as the backbone of a program spent winning titles. You use them as a punchline.

"I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a fan who rises and sleeps under a Carolina blue blanket emblazoned with the years of our titles, and then questions the manner in which I provide those titles. I would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a basketball, and stand near the post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!"

Rumor has it the NCAA is now going straight to an Article 32 hearing on Ol' Roy!

[Duvall]

Duke Lacrosse did nothing (at least as accused). UNC apparently did. Huge difference. Culpability: One fades; one lives on.

-jk

Sure, but how many people are paying attention to UNC now compared to the Duke lacrosse matter, and for how much longer? I am willing to wager that a larger percentage of people would tell you now that Duke lacrosse was guilty - even though they weren't - than could tell you about UNC's misdeeds. The gap will become even more pronounced going forward.

[83and86]

I occasionally feel sorry for their thinking and intelligent fans, and some of the more rational alumni who are outraged and ashamed. But they are very few and far between. Take a trip over to IC (you'll need a shower afterwards). Most of their fanbase continues to believe that they did nothing wrong (the classes were accredited for goodness sake!) and this whole mess is a result of pettiness (PackPride), haters and jealousy (just about everyone else). I don't hold out any realistic expectation of severe sanctions. And even if they are sanctioned severely, that will do nothing to dampen their smugness, arrogance, denial and delusions about the Carolina Way. The first step in dealing with any problem is to admit there is a problem. You're never going to get the majority of Carolina fans to take that step. Just isn't going to happen. No mourning here. I'll leave that to the few sensible Carolina fans/alumni/students.

[MCFinARL]

Sure, but how many people are paying attention to UNC now compared to the Duke lacrosse matter, and for how much longer? I am willing to wager that a larger percentage of people would tell you now that Duke lacrosse was guilty - even though they weren't - than could tell you about UNC's misdeeds. The gap will become even more pronounced going forward.

Sadly, I suspect you are right. As much coverage as this has gotten, it hasn't been anywhere near the volume or hysteria of the lacrosse coverage--and the fact that there was an identifiable individual alleged "victim" and identifiable accused individuals made the story more memorable. By comparison, this story doesn't seem nearly as juicy, and it lacks the "rich entitled jerks" angle (even though the story does, doubtless, involve some entitled jerks).

[Duvall]

By comparison, this story doesn't seem nearly as juicy, and it lacks the "rich entitled jerks" angle (even though the story does, doubtless, involve some entitled jerks).

Oh, there's not much doubt about that.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWwQOgqGEVE

[devildeac]

This is just coming out, transcript of an encounter between Ol' Roy and a reporter who asked him about the Wainstein report!

Ol' Roy: "You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that demands titles, and those titles have to be won by men who can't spell! Who's gonna do it? You, snivelling reporter? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom.

"You weep for Rashad McCants and curse the advisors. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know, that illiterate players, while tragic, probably won titles. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, wins titles! You don't want the truth, because deep down in places you don't talk about at your wine and cheese parties, you want me cutting down that net. You need me cutting down that net.

"We use terms like "paper classes" and "no-show classes" and "AFAM." We use these terms as the backbone of a program spent winning titles. You use them as a punchline.

"I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a fan who rises and sleeps under a Carolina blue blanket emblazoned with the years of our titles, and then questions the manner in which I provide those titles. I would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a basketball, and stand near the post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!"

Rumor has it the NCAA is now going straight to an Article 32 hearing on Ol' Roy!

Link?

(;))

[throatybeard]

Duke Lacrosse did nothing (at least as accused). UNC apparently did. Huge difference. Culpability: One fades; one lives on.

-jk

No one's arguing the outcome of the Duke Lacrosse guys. But it doesn't matter. The people who get in my face about Duke Lacrosse are (a) few and far between, (b) just trying to get a reaction out of me and (c) the fact that the guys were exonerated doesn't matter to them in the least. Nor does that fact that last year's seniors were in eighth grade when the Lacrosse rodeo went down.

But no one talks about it on TV anymore. That has little to do with exoneration, and everything to do with short attention span.

So, take guilty parties. Once again, Penn State sheltered the second most famous abuser of underage males in American history. It hasn't even been three years since the story broke, and almost no one is talking about it on TV.

Carolina is going to suffer a category one or two PR hurricane. Then in the medium and long term, they're going to skate like Johann Olav Koss. Unless the NCAA makes a thirty-year example of them.

[OldPhiKap]

Oh, there's not much doubt about that.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWwQOgqGEVE

Really worth watching that interview, thanks for the link.

Roy appears, and I am sure that he is, very sincere. But while he denies very specific points, by and large it is a non-denial pass-off of the bulk of the allegations. Even kinda confirms some stuff in a backhand way.

[uh_no]

This is just coming out, transcript of an encounter between Ol' Roy and a reporter who asked him about the Wainstein report!

Ol' Roy: "You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that demands titles, and those titles have to be won by men who can't spell! Who's gonna do it? You, snivelling reporter? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom.

"You weep for Rashad McCants and curse the advisors. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know, that illiterate players, while tragic, probably won titles. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, wins titles! You don't want the truth, because deep down in places you don't talk about at your wine and cheese parties, you want me cutting down that net. You need me cutting down that net.

"We use terms like "paper classes" and "no-show classes" and "AFAM." We use these terms as the backbone of a program spent winning titles. You use them as a punchline.

"I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a fan who rises and sleeps under a Carolina blue blanket emblazoned with the years of our titles, and then questions the manner in which I provide those titles. I would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a basketball, and stand near the post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!"

Rumor has it the NCAA is now going straight to an Article 32 hearing on Ol' Roy!

One more title, and Roy would have had a set of steak knives.

[jimsumner]

CEO's are fired on a regular basis for things that happened on their watch that they didn't know about but should have known about.

There are situations when plausible deniability is as bad or worse than knowing. I believe this is one of those.

As many of you know, I was born and raised in the state. I have a daughter with two degrees from Carolina and two in-laws who teach at the UNC law school. My entire life I've had friends, neighbors, teachers, fellow employees, business associates, who graduated from and/or worked at UNC and loved their college years and love their alma mater.

So, I take no great pleasure in this morass. But this is a significant black eye for the school and attention must be paid. I will be absolutely gob-smacked if UNC doesn't face significant penalties. Deserved penalties.

Read Bubba Cunningham's comments below. Some serious denial still going on. Nothing to see here, folks. Move along.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/10/28/4271606/ncaa-president-mark-emmert-unc.html?sp=/99/100/&ihp=1

Also, I'm not sure if this has been linked.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/10/28/4272207/whether-quit-or-be-fired-by-unc.html?sp=/99/108/

[JasonEvans]

I'm indifferent to how or if they are punished. Clearly punishment of some sort is warranted but the specifics? It'll probably impact the wrong people, while the people responsible for all of this skate.

While I somewhat agree that the offenders would appear to be getting off scott-free. But, that may not be entirely the case. The people who did this largely committed the fraud in an effort to help the UNC athletic department succeed. They took joy from every win involving athletes they had helped to skirt the responsibilities (and opportunity) of being a legitimate student. It is clear that these people care a great deal about UNC's athletic success.

So, a penalty that impacts Carolina's success moving forward -- scholarship reductions and post-season bans -- would hit these offenders in a very meaningful way. What's more, a punishment like that which impacts the programs in a negative fashion would also damage the reputation of these people among the community of Carolina fans. If Carolina basketball cannot got to the tournament for 2 or 3 years and Crowder is the cause of that, it will certainly impact how she feels showing her face at the local grocery store.

Lastly, Carolina must be punished so anyone who considers a scheme like this in the future will know that bad things come from it.

-Jason "I wonder how long the NCAA will take to mete out justice? Another week or two? How long does it take to read that damn report?!?!" Evans

[jimsumner]

While I somewhat agree that the offenders would appear to be getting off scott-free. But, that may not be entirely the case. The people who did this largely committed the fraud in an effort to help the UNC athletic department succeed. They took joy from every win involving athletes they had helped to skirt the responsibilities (and opportunity) of being a legitimate student. It is clear that these people care a great deal about UNC's athletic success.

So, a penalty that impacts Carolina's success moving forward -- scholarship reductions and post-season bans -- would hit these offenders in a very meaningful way. What's more, a punishment like that which impacts the programs in a negative fashion would also damage the reputation of these people among the community of Carolina fans. If Carolina basketball cannot got to the tournament for 2 or 3 years and Crowder is the cause of that, it will certainly impact how she feels showing her face at the local grocery store.

Lastly, Carolina must be punished so anyone who considers a scheme like this in the future will know that bad things come from it.

-Jason "I wonder how long the NCAA will take to mete out justice? Another week or two? How long does it take to read that damn report?!?!" Evans

Will the NCAA just go on the Wainstein report? Or will they act on the additional paths implied in the appendix? Are they going to take at face-value the idea that only one department was involved and that everyone high in the food chain was shocked to learn that gambling was going on in their fine establishment?

[DukieInKansas]

Will the NCAA just go on the Wainstein report? Or will they act on the additional paths implied in the appendix? Are they going to take at face-value the idea that only one department was involved and that everyone high in the food chain was shocked to learn that gambling was going on in their fine establishment?

I would certainly hope the NCAA would follow the paths that have been laid before them in the appendix. If they don't, someone will go down those paths forcing the NCAA to come back. Best to find it all now.

[devildeac]

I would certainly hope the NCAA would follow the paths that have been laid before them in the appendix. If they don't, someone will go down those paths forcing the NCAA to come back. Best to find it all now.

PackPride may have their work cut out for them;):rolleyes:.

[jimsumner]

I would certainly hope the NCAA would follow the paths that have been laid before them in the appendix. If they don't, someone will go down those paths forcing the NCAA to come back. Best to find it all now.

I have a feeling we'll never get completely to the bottom of this until someone with subpoena power comes along.

Which isn't the NCAA.

[uh_no]

I have a feeling we'll never get completely to the bottom of this until someone with subpoena power comes along.

Which isn't the NCAA.

but the NCAA can coerce people currently in the athletics department to answer questions. Part of being in the NCAA is cooperating with any investigation. They can't coerce former players/coaches to talk...but current ones, they can.

[Tripping William]

I would certainly hope the NCAA would follow the paths that have been laid before them in the appendix. If they don't, someone will go down those paths forcing the NCAA to come back. Best to find it all now.

Bubba Cunningham is confident there will be no further investigations, so there's that, FWIW.

[OldPhiKap]

-Jason "I wonder how long the NCAA will take to mete out justice? Another week or two? How long does it take to read that damn report?!?!" Evans

This will not be resolved this calendar year.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

This will not be resolved this calendar year.

I wonder if it will be resolved this decade. The layers of problems once uncovered present new problems to research and dissect.

It's intriguing to me that secondary level employees would conceive such an SOP and be able to carry it off without any direction, initiation, intervention or monitoring by their superiors ..... and do so for such a long period of time.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

I have a feeling we'll never get completely to the bottom of this until someone with subpoena power comes along.

Which isn't the NCAA.

Exaa--aaactly.
Love, Ima

[77devil]

Will the NCAA just go on the Wainstein report? Or will they act on the additional paths implied in the appendix? Are they going to take at face-value the idea that only one department was involved and that everyone high in the food chain was shocked to learn that gambling was going on in their fine establishment?

I hope Emmert's comment "If the Wainstein report is accurate...." was a simply a poor choice of words.

[peterjswift]

I occasionally feel sorry for their thinking and intelligent fans, and some of the more rational alumni who are outraged and ashamed. But they are very few and far between. Take a trip over to IC (you'll need a shower afterwards). Most of their fanbase continues to believe that they did nothing wrong (the classes were accredited for goodness sake!) and this whole mess is a result of pettiness (PackPride), haters and jealousy (just about everyone else). I don't hold out any realistic expectation of severe sanctions. And even if they are sanctioned severely, that will do nothing to dampen their smugness, arrogance, denial and delusions about the Carolina Way. The first step in dealing with any problem is to admit there is a problem. You're never going to get the majority of Carolina fans to take that step. Just isn't going to happen. No mourning here. I'll leave that to the few sensible Carolina fans/alumni/students.

I try to avoid visits to IC as much as the next poster on this message board, but I've heard several references to IC discussions on this topic. Could you or anyone provide a few links to relevant threads on IC? I don't want to accidentally see too much by searching their forum...

[devildeac]

I hope Emmert's comment "If the Wainstein report is accurate...." was a simply a poor choice of words.

I noted the same thing and wondered if he was leaving the ncaa an escape route. :mad:

[duke79]

Duke Lacrosse did nothing (at least as accused). UNC apparently did. Huge difference. Culpability: One fades; one lives on.

-jk

Yea, the lacrosse scandal has largely faded from the news cycle (thank God), but it amazes me how many "lay people" (those folks having nothing to do with Duke) still associate Duke with the lacrosse scandal. My daughter is a senior in high school and I was hoping I could convince her to apply to Duke (no such luck, unfortunately), but when I mentioned this to many people, almost all of them say to me........"you mean, that school with the awful lacrosse scandal? Why do you want her to go there?" Like Duke is somehow associated with leprosy and ebola combined. LOL. I then have to tell them that I went there, almost all the charges brought by Miss Mangum were found to be false, and Duke is one of the best universities in the country. But many people still think of Duke as a place where rich, spoiled white kids sexually assault poor black women.

I don't think this cheating scandal at UNC will ever reach that level of public awareness. I always say that it is not a real scandal (a la Penn St. or the Duke lacrosse case) until Fox News has one of their mobile trucks on the scene with a bleached blonde "news reporter" breathlessly reporting on the "scandal."

[Bostondevil]

I don't think this cheating scandal at UNC will ever reach that level of public awareness.

There was a joke about it on Weekend Update last Saturday night. That's up there with awareness.


The people I feel the most sorry for in all of this?

1) Students who legitimately majored in African American Studies.
2) The 3100 (or more) applicants who were denied admission to the University of North Carolina so that they could make room for these non-students to attend.

[weezie]

I'm kinda mourning that this thread is seven pages long and counting.
Good lord.........

[duketaylor]

And at what point does the snooping/questioning begin for "student/athletes" at one-and-done UK? Baylor? Or anywhere else? This could very well just be the tip of the iceberg. The apparent fact that unc had this going on for 18 years is just scary.

[BigWayne]

I don't think this cheating scandal at UNC will ever reach that level of public awareness. I always say that it is not a real scandal (a la Penn St. or the Duke lacrosse case) until Fox News has one of their mobile trucks on the scene with a bleached blonde "news reporter" breathlessly reporting on the "scandal."

That is why major sanctions need to happen. Removal of the banners is the visible thing that TV needs. That and the image of Clemson beating a team full of walk-ons at the Dean Dome.

[DukieInKansas]

That is why major sanctions need to happen. Removal of the banners is the visible thing that TV needs. That and the image of Clemson beating a team full of walk-ons at the Dean Dome.

Followed by Klemnop streaking down Franklin Street

[Newton_14]

I wonder if it will be resolved this decade. The layers of problems once uncovered present new problems to research and dissect.

It's intriguing to me that secondary level employees would conceive such an SOP and be able to carry it off without any direction, initiation, intervention or monitoring by their superiors ..... and do so for such a long period of time.

I was typing a spork for you but it was going to be too long so I decided to share with all. (You still got the spork though! :) )

My first impression of your three and a half sentence post was "Wow, DitBD captured the heart of the matter in less than a paragraph" but then it hit me.... isn't that what they want us to believe? The length of time is incredulous and damning for sure. 18 years? My son turns 18 this coming January. His birth feels like a lifetime ago.

But my second guessing of myself and of you is this: Could "Secondary level employees both conceive such an SOP and be able to carry it off without any direction, initiation, intervention, or monitoring by their superiors"? We have been asked to believe that. After careful consideration, I am going to politely decline.

I find that to be about as plausible as Roy Williams having never lived a sinful day in his entire life.

With the careful wording of your post, I'm inclined to believe you do not find this idea plausible either.;)

[OldPhiKap]

I was typing a spork for you but it was going to be too long so I decided to share with all. (You still got the spork though! :) )

My first impression of your three and a half sentence post was "Wow, DitBD captured the heart of the matter in less than a paragraph" but then it hit me.... isn't that what they want us to believe? The length of time is incredulous and damning for sure. 18 years? My son turns 18 this coming January. His birth feels like a lifetime ago.

But my second guessing of myself and of you is this: Could "Secondary level employees both conceive such an SOP and be able to carry it off without any direction, initiation, intervention, or monitoring by their superiors"? We have been asked to believe that. After careful consideration, I am going to politely decline.

I find that to be about as plausible as Roy Williams having never lived a sinful day in his entire life.

With the careful wording of your post, I'm inclined to believe you do not find this idea plausible either.;)

Here's the thing: it does not matter whether the upper level folks knew or not. Even if we bought what UNC is shoveling, that itself establishes a fundamental lack of institutional control and a wonton disregard for the very basic precepts of student-athleticism.

I do not care whether Roy knew; whether Roy (wink wink) did not "know" with metaphysical certitude; or whether he was cluelessly duped by the advisor he brought with him from Kansas. He (and the other coaches and administrators) were responsible for what happened in their programs. That's why they get the big bucks.

So, let's suspend disbelief for a moment and assume that a bunch of control-freak coaches, in numerous sports, were somehow absolutely unaware that their underlings conspired to manipulate the system in order to manufacture eligibility. It is still their staff; it still happened under their watch. "The Buck Stops Here." You would expect them to be absolutely livid that some underling violated their duties to them and jeopardized their reputation/career, and that this aggrieved coach would demand that justice be done. The fact that we do not see this expected response speaks volumes however.

And this whole "lack of knowledge" defense is particularly rich coming from a fan base that absolutely blasted Jim Valvano for "what he should have known" in a sordid, but much more contained, affair. The problems at UNC went on for eighteen years. EIGHTEEN YEARS. E-I-G-H-T-E-E-N flipping Y-E-A-R-S. Through four different basketball head coaches. Yet none of them knew?!?

It reminds me of Maxwell Smart -- "Would you believe . . . ."

No, I would not. But not knowing does not change what needs to happen. Each coach should offer his or her resignation. Because how do you preach to your team about responsibility, when you will not take any yourselves?

[sammy3469]

After yesterday's song and dance with Swofford and Williams, I've come to the point where I don't understand why Duke as a body isn't speaking out more. The hucksters over there (and I'm including Swofford in that group now) are frankly sullying the entire ACC and by extension Duke at this point. Yeah, it's funny to mock them, but we're now a member of an organization openly minimizing the cheating that went on over there and led by an individual that can't be truthful and open when given the chance. Swofford has to go before he further hurts the ACC brand. If UNC wants remain in the gutter and not take responsibility, so be it, but Swofford's going to sully the ACC's reputation and by extension ours, if he's allowed to maintain in place.

It's now been a week and UNC's actions over it have killed any shred of caring I've had about them. I'm more disgusted and dissappointed now than I was when the report was issued.

[budwom]

Nah, Duke should stay out of it and let Ol' Roy dig his own grave. The more he speaks, the worse UNC looks. The long time fraud was designed and perpetrated by UNC people and there's
zero reason to allow them to say they're the victim of some anti-UNC conspiracy.

Carol Folt is on the clock now. Amazingly, I truly think she wants to fix her institutions very damaged reputation, and the more Roy speaks, the closer he is to
getting pushed out....I really believe that.

[sammy3469]

Nah, Duke should stay out of it and let Ol' Roy dig his own grave. The more he speaks, the worse UNC looks. The long time fraud was designed and perpetrated by UNC people and there's
zero reason to allow them to say they're the victim of some anti-UNC conspiracy.

Carol Folt is on the clock now. Amazingly, I truly think she wants to fix her institutions very damaged reputation, and the more Roy speaks, the closer he is to
getting pushed out....I really believe that.

Maybe, but the longer these hucksters stay around, the worse it looks for everyone (UNC academics, UNC athletics, the ACC, other ACC members) involved. Holt's battling some very entrenched interests over there and I'll believe she's actually doing something when I see/hear it.

More than anything I'm just disappointed that there's a good chance that every Duke telecast this year will devolve at some point to the UNC scandal until there's some closure.

[Henderson]

More than anything I'm just disappointed that there's a good chance that every Duke telecast this year will devolve at some point to the UNC scandal until there's some closure.

I wouldn't be disappointed at all. I get goose bumps every time it's mentioned.

Redemption and forgiveness require confession and repentance. What we're getting from Bubba and Roy are minimization and denial, obviously scripted by the PR people to whom UNC-CH has paid seven figures for such guidance. [Have you noticed that Bubba and Roy had the same talking points this week?]

I'd like to see this story run 24/7 until the coaches and administrators cut the crap, admit that they cheated for almost two decades, and readily accept a severe sanction. UNC-CH could get this whole thing behind them by negotiating a sufficiently stern settlement with the NCAA. But they don't seem to want to. So the story continues to have legs because UNC-CH is dragging it out.

If that's the way they want to play it, OK. But given that they've chosen a path guaranteed to keep the bombardment of questions and press references going, I say keep the bombardment of questions and press references going.

How about ESPN4: The Scandal Channel. With baby blue backdrops and 24/7 coverage. Maybe get some slick CNN-style graphics.

[OldPhiKap]

Maybe, but the longer these hucksters stay around, the worse it looks for everyone (UNC academics, UNC athletics, the ACC, other ACC members) involved. Holt's battling some very entrenched interests over there and I'll believe she's actually doing something when I see/hear it.

More than anything I'm just disappointed that there's a good chance that every Duke telecast this year will devolve at some point to the UNC scandal until there's some closure.


I wouldn't be disappointed at all. I get goose bumps every time it's mentioned.

Redemption and forgiveness require confession and repentance. What we're getting from Bubba and Roy are minimization and denial, obviously scripted by the PR people to whom UNC-CH has paid seven figures for such guidance. [Have you noticed that Bubba and Roy had the same talking points this week?]

I'd like to see this story run 24/7 until the coaches and administrators cut the crap, admit that they cheated for almost two decades, and readily accept a severe sanction. UNC-CH could get this whole thing behind them by negotiating a sufficiently stern settlement with the NCAA. But they don't seem to want to. So the story continues to have legs because UNC-CH is dragging it out.

If that's the way they want to play it, OK. But given that they've chosen a path guaranteed to keep the bombardment of questions and press references going, I say keep the bombardment of questions and press references going.

How about ESPN4: The Scandal Channel. With baby blue backdrops and 24/7 coverage. Maybe get some slick CNN-style graphics.

For the first time in a long time, I am curious to hear from Dickie V. He has, for years, gone on and on about how Carolina does things the right way. I am sure that he is buds with Roy and will try to couch aspersions, but -- Dickie V will no doubt comment on the matter. A lot. Every game.

[weezie]

Dickie V will no doubt comment on the matter. A lot. Every game.


Yes, no doubt with repetitive hyperbole, and yawping sad head-shaking while praising Saint roy for his lifelong dedication to the uplift of deserving young men and the beatification of all things hole-ian.
Barf.

[duke79]

Yes, no doubt with repetitive hyperbole, and yawping sad head-shaking while praising Saint roy for his lifelong dedication to the uplift of deserving young men and the beatification of all things hole-ian.
Barf.

LOL, so true. I don't see Dickie V. coming down hard on Roy or Carolina. Just not in his DNA to be as critical as he should be.

[hurleyfor3]

And at what point does the snooping/questioning begin for "student/athletes" at one-and-done UK? Baylor? Or anywhere else? This could very well just be the tip of the iceberg. The apparent fact that unc had this going on for 18 years is just scary.

That's why I don't believe the "everyone else does it" argument. With all the poking around the NCAA has done at places like Auburn, Memphis, Florida State or Miami to name a few, you'd think that if everybody did it they would've found this going on at other places. If everyone has fake classes, why not send a few people to whomever is signing Eddie Sutton's or John Calipari's paychecks, and they're certain to be there, right? And considering these places have a much lower academic reputation and don't get the benefit of the doubt unc does, the infamous "court of public opinion" would already have done half the ncaa's job.

But they spent a decade trying to staple-gun Jerry Tarkanian's testicles to the ceiling and never found anything like this at unlv. When unlv was the academic laughingstock of Division I.

So either nobody else cheats like unc did, or everybody else is smarter than unc at not getting caught. Why couldn't unc figure out whatever way everyone else was cheating, and just cheat that way?

OK, Tar Heels, which is it?

[TKG]

LOL, so true. I don't see Dickie V. coming down hard on Roy or Carolina. Just not in his DNA to be as critical as he should be.

Dickie V. made his career as a cheerleader not as an analyst. That will not change.

[alteran]

Carol Folt is on the clock now. Amazingly, I truly think she wants to fix her institutions very damaged reputation, and the more Roy speaks, the closer he is to
getting pushed out....I really believe that.

For the life of me, I cannot figure out why so many folks seem to think Carol Folt is the one honest soul at UNC that really wants to get to the bottom of this.

Folt either masterminded, participated in, or tacitly approved the smear campaign against Mary Willingham. She allowed Willingham to be marginalized and eventually forced out.

Folt is part of the problem, folks. It's conceivable that the crisis has reached the level that a smart cover up artist like herself realizes that it's time to cut her losses-- but her role in this makes it pretty clear that's the only way she'll do anything, and whatever she does will be the minimum she can get away with.

[superdave]

That's why I don't believe the "everyone else does it" argument. With all the poking around the NCAA has done at places like Auburn, Memphis, Florida State or Miami to name a few, you'd think that if everybody did it they would've found this going on at other places. If everyone has fake classes, why not send a few people to whomever is signing Eddie Sutton's or John Calipari's paychecks, and they're certain to be there, right? And considering these places have a much lower academic reputation and don't get the benefit of the doubt unc does, the infamous "court of public opinion" would already have done half the ncaa's job.

But they spent a decade trying to staple-gun Jerry Tarkanian's testicles to the ceiling and never found anything like this at unlv. When unlv was the academic laughingstock of Division I.

So either nobody else cheats like unc did, or everybody else is smarter than unc at not getting caught. Why couldn't unc figure out whatever way everyone else was cheating, and just cheat that way?

OK, Tar Heels, which is it?

Can we redesign the banner at the top of DBR to be this picture?

[Zeb]

I am curious to hear from Dickie V.

I will never think this on any topic.

[devildeac]

For the life of me, I cannot figure out why so many folks seem to think Carol Folt is the one honest soul at UNC that really wants to get to the bottom of this.

Folt either masterminded, participated in, or tacitly approved the smear campaign against Mary Willingham. She allowed Willingham to be marginalized and eventually forced out.

Folt is part of the problem, folks. It's conceivable that the crisis has reached the level that a smart cover up artist like herself realizes that it's time to cut her losses-- but her role in this makes it pretty clear that's the only way she'll do anything, and whatever she does will be the minimum she can get away with.

Here's one person's opinion from a Dartmouth blog from 2012:

http://www.dartblog.com/data/2012/04/010173.php

A few quotes:


"As the saying goes among faculty members, when Carol Folt gives you a great many reasons for a decision, you can be sure that the real one is not among them."

"Folt’s handling of the grading controversy in Professor Jon Appleton’s class several years ago was shocking for its violation of academic freedom, and it drove Appleton from the College."

"Today’s D has a story entitled Faculty say Folt will pursue Kim’s goals. Of note is that any professor voicing criticism of interim-President Folt in the piece does so anonymously. Why? Well, as we have noted before, a full and frank airing of differences is not Folt’s forté; in fact, cross Carol and you will pay the price."


Just providing a little fodder for discussion. I vaguely remember some "controversies" about her appointment at c*rolina and I'm sure anyone chosen for such a position has a few "skeletons" in their past.

[Tom B.]

LOL, so true. I don't see Dickie V. coming down hard on Roy or Carolina. Just not in his DNA to be as critical as he should be.

I fully expect Vitale to give Roy Williams an on-air tongue bath at his first opportunity. Vitale was already reciting the Carolina party line last season -- why should he change now? He'll go off on the academic advisors and professors who were involved, and the NCAA of course, but won't touch Roy -- in fact, he'll continue to praise Roy effusively as someone who does things "the right way" and "runs a class program." At which point my head will explode from the massive rapid buildup of internal vomit pressure.

[Duvall]

I fully expect Vitale to give Roy Williams an on-air tongue bath at his first opportunity. Vitale was already reciting the Carolina party line last season -- why should he change now? He'll go off on the academic advisors and professors who were involved, and the NCAA of course, but won't touch Roy -- in fact, he'll continue to praise Roy effusively as someone who does things "the right way" and "runs a class program." At which point my head will explode from the massive rapid buildup of internal vomit pressure.

This is exactly right. Vitale is a shameless apologist for coaches and unabashed fan of UNC on a good day. Now that ESPN needs to rehabilitate the North Carolina brand, his hucksterism will be worse than ever.

[wilko]

So...lets assume the worst and that UNC loses its accreditation....

Do they have to leave the ACC as a default action of losing accreditation?
And if so... Are they subject to the same fines, fees, rights and grants under those circumstances? Is it the same end result as if they just pulled a UMd and just went to another conference or have they found a back door to leave the ACC penalty free?

Just curious...

[duke79]

I fully expect Vitale to give Roy Williams an on-air tongue bath at his first opportunity. Vitale was already reciting the Carolina party line last season -- why should he change now? He'll go off on the academic advisors and professors who were involved, and the NCAA of course, but won't touch Roy -- in fact, he'll continue to praise Roy effusively as someone who does things "the right way" and "runs a class program." At which point my head will explode from the massive rapid buildup of internal vomit pressure.

LOL......very funny........but also very true. Although I'm not sure Dickie V. will excoriate the academic advisors and professors in this case (I mean...let's face reality......Dickie V's forte does not involve commenting on the "student" part of "student-athlete". I think he knows his limitations). My guess is he will throw out some palaver about a few people had done some bad things but Carolina is taking the steps to rectify the problems and everything will be OK over in the Hole. And then he will talk about what a great human being and great coach Roy is. No doubt it will be nauseating but I'm sure he would do the same thing if Duke and Coach K were in a similar position. You truly have to take him with a grain of salt.

[uh_no]

So...lets assume the worst and that UNC loses its accreditation....

Do they have to leave the ACC as a default action of losing accreditation?
And if so... Are they subject to the same fines, fees, rights and grants under those circumstances? Is it the same end result as if they just pulled a UMd and just went to another conference or have they found a back door to leave the ACC penalty free?

Just curious...

the article is a bit sensationalist. there is little chance UNC loses their accreditation. there are two official stages before that: warning and probation...neither of which UNC was put on after the martin report. they were being "monitored"...

[sagegrouse]

Nah, Duke should stay out of it and let Ol' Roy dig his own grave. The more he speaks, the worse UNC looks. The long time fraud was designed and perpetrated by UNC people and there's
zero reason to allow them to say they're the victim of some anti-UNC conspiracy.

Carol Folt is on the clock now. Amazingly, I truly think she wants to fix her institutions very damaged reputation, and the more Roy speaks, the closer he is to
getting pushed out....I really believe that.


For the life of me, I cannot figure out why so many folks seem to think Carol Folt is the one honest soul at UNC that really wants to get to the bottom of this.

Folt either masterminded, participated in, or tacitly approved the smear campaign against Mary Willingham. She allowed Willingham to be marginalized and eventually forced out.

Folt is part of the problem, folks. It's conceivable that the crisis has reached the level that a smart cover up artist like herself realizes that it's time to cut her losses-- but her role in this makes it pretty clear that's the only way she'll do anything, and whatever she does will be the minimum she can get away with.

I expect Folt has been told by the Board to "fix" UNC's reputation, or -- truly -- protect what's left of it. The communications to UNC big cheeses from the NCAA and the SACS must be blistering. We saw what Emmert said heatedly, when he can hardly comment on a matter under consideration by the NCAA.

[wilko]

the article is a bit sensationalist. there is little chance UNC loses their accreditation. there are two official stages before that: warning and probation...neither of which UNC was put on after the martin report. they were being "monitored"...

Prolly very true.... just playing it thru..

Brings up a valid question tho - for ANY school...
How is the ACC membership/conference language set up for such a situation. Surely leaving the league is leaving the league, whether its a jump to the B1G whatever... or they lose academic accreditation. I would hope its the same....

UMd would be several million dollars richer by keeping the exit fee if they only made fake classes in their departure, right? yes or no?

[budwom]

For the life of me, I cannot figure out why so many folks seem to think Carol Folt is the one honest soul at UNC that really wants to get to the bottom of this.

Folt either masterminded, participated in, or tacitly approved the smear campaign against Mary Willingham. She allowed Willingham to be marginalized and eventually forced out.

Folt is part of the problem, folks. It's conceivable that the crisis has reached the level that a smart cover up artist like herself realizes that it's time to cut her losses-- but her role in this makes it pretty clear that's the only way she'll do anything, and whatever she does will be the minimum she can get away with.

FWIW I don't believe I said a single thing about her being honest, did I? I merely said she wants to fix unc's damaged reputation, and Ol' Roy's dyspeptic blathering can't be helping.

[alteran]

FWIW I don't believe I said a single thing about her being honest, did I? I merely said she wants to fix unc's damaged reputation, and Ol' Roy's dyspeptic blathering can't be helping.

Sorry to mischaracterize what you wrote. I read "Amazingly, I truly think she wants to fix her institutions very damaged reputation" as meaning she sincerely wants to fix the real problems, not cynically wants to fix the reputation (only).

Sounds like we're on the same page.

FWIW, I've heard/read a number of people describe her as the one person trying truly to clean things up, and I don't see that at all.

[jimsumner]

The fact that Folt keeps referring to this as the Crowder-Nyang'oro scandal or some such suggests to me that she's more interested in damage control than getting to the bottom of this.

[JasonEvans]

Followed by Klemnop streaking down Franklin Street

Ummm, I think we can skip the TV coverage of that.

[Skitzle]

The fact that Folt keeps referring to this as the Crowder-Nyang'oro scandal or some such suggests to me that she's more interested in damage control than getting to the bottom of this.

Exactly. More of the same. This is getting ridiculous.


Do damage control, doesn't work, do more investigation.

Investigation report comes out, do more damage control, doesn't work, do another investigation

Investigation report comes out, do more damage control, guess what happens next?

[cspan37421]

That's why I don't believe the "everyone else does it" argument. With all the poking around the NCAA has done at places like Auburn, Memphis, Florida State or Miami to name a few, you'd think that if everybody did it they would've found this going on at other places. If everyone has fake classes, why not send a few people to whomever is signing Eddie Sutton's or John Calipari's paychecks, and they're certain to be there, right? And considering these places have a much lower academic reputation and don't get the benefit of the doubt unc does, the infamous "court of public opinion" would already have done half the ncaa's job.

But they spent a decade trying to staple-gun Jerry Tarkanian's testicles to the ceiling and never found anything like this at unlv. When unlv was the academic laughingstock of Division I.

So either nobody else cheats like unc did, or everybody else is smarter than unc at not getting caught. Why couldn't unc figure out whatever way everyone else was cheating, and just cheat that way?

OK, Tar Heels, which is it?

Seems to me that there was a Sports Illustrated article not long ago that outlined in significant detail precisely how everyone else does "it." In this case, "it" referred to boosters playing players (mostly football), but the principal counterargument to your position is the same ... all the poking around at the southern schools you mention has not stopped, let alone uncovered, this apparently widespread practice. So by extension, it seems to me that the NCAA could be equally blind to widespread academic fraud.

My guess is a variation on "everyone else is smarter than UNC at not getting caught." To get away with cheating for 20 years is a pretty substantial accomplishment. I wouldn't say they were dumb because they got caught, but someone was bound to get snagged sometime and someone else was going to pull on the thread of that snag, and the whole thing unravels. It just happened to unravel at UNC ... they were just slightly less vigilant & thorough at keeping evidence of their fraud from seeing the light of day. Eventually something gave.

I also suspect that there's more willful blindness at other schools. I am not persuaded that many fans and alums at certain SEC schools are losing sleep over the potential that their student-athletes might be enrolled in fraudulent classes to keep them eligible. Those most likely to blow the whistle would probably be inviting unwelcome attention to themselves. As Sir Charles said, I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

[sagegrouse]

Seems to me that there was a Sports Illustrated article not long ago that outlined in significant detail precisely how everyone else does "it." In this case, "it" referred to boosters playing players (mostly football), but the principal counterargument to your position is the same ... all the poking around at the southern schools you mention has not stopped, let alone uncovered, this apparently widespread practice. So by extension, it seems to me that the NCAA could be equally blind to widespread academic fraud.

My guess is a variation on "everyone else is smarter than UNC at not getting caught." To get away with cheating for 20 years is a pretty substantial accomplishment. I wouldn't say they were dumb because they got caught, but someone was bound to get snagged sometime and someone else was going to pull on the thread of that snag, and the whole thing unravels. It just happened to unravel at UNC ... they were just slightly less vigilant & thorough at keeping evidence of their fraud from seeing the light of day. Eventually something gave.

I also suspect that there's more willful blindness at other schools. I am not persuaded that many fans and alums at certain SEC schools are losing sleep over the potential that their student-athletes might be enrolled in fraudulent classes to keep them eligible. Those most likely to blow the whistle would probably be inviting unwelcome attention to themselves. As Sir Charles said, I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

I think the "back story," which is only indirectly favorable to UNC, is that the extreme academic illegality of their violation suggests that at UNC it was difficult to achieve eligibility for poorly prepared, unmotivated athletes. Therefore, why so blatantly awful -- a departmental assistant masquerading as a prof and acting as a forger; for so long -- 18 years; and for so many -- 1,500 athletes? And maybe, at the football factories, it isn't very hard at all.

[alteran]

Followed by Klemnop streaking down Franklin Street

Ummm, I think we can skip the TV coverage of that.

UNC isn't worthy of having Klemnop sunbathing on their lousy sundial.

[alteran]

I think the "back story," which is only indirectly favorable to UNC, is that the extreme academic illegality of their violation suggests that at UNC it was difficult to achieve eligibility for poorly prepared, unmotivated athletes. Therefore, why so blatantly awful -- a departmental assistant masquerading as a prof and acting as a forger; for so long -- 18 years; and for so many -- 1,500 athletes? And maybe, at the football factories, it isn't very hard at all.

Yes, this is about the only credit I'll give UNC-- their constant lip service to The Way Formerly Known as Carolina's may have made it harder WITHIN THE INSTITUTION to get away with sneaking underprepared athletes through college while maintaining their eligibility.

I imagine there's a number of schools where the methods are much less... clustered.

Although I actually do think that in most of those schools, they're probably funneling athletes to a variety of extremely easy classes-- not to no attendence, no instruction, just-a-secretary's-signature-and-a-quasi-optional-writing-assignment classes. That's a fraud that may actually be unique to Chapel hil

[hurleyfor3]

Seems to me that there was a Sports Illustrated article not long ago that outlined in significant detail precisely how everyone else does "it." In this case, "it" referred to boosters playing players (mostly football), but the principal counterargument to your position is the same ... all the poking around at the southern schools you mention has not stopped, let alone uncovered, this apparently widespread practice. So by extension, it seems to me that the NCAA could be equally blind to widespread academic fraud.

My guess is a variation on "everyone else is smarter than UNC at not getting caught." To get away with cheating for 20 years is a pretty substantial accomplishment. I wouldn't say they were dumb because they got caught, but someone was bound to get snagged sometime and someone else was going to pull on the thread of that snag, and the whole thing unravels. It just happened to unravel at UNC ... they were just slightly less vigilant & thorough at keeping evidence of their fraud from seeing the light of day. Eventually something gave.

I distinguish paying players and "improper benefits" from academic dishonesty. I care about the latter much more than the former. Anyway, I'd think there would have been a whistleblower somewhere else by now if everyone had cheated in the manner and to the extent unc did. Other schools have media that protect them, but someone like the Detroit Free Press would jump all over this if it were at Ohio State, for example.


I also suspect that there's more willful blindness at other schools. I am not persuaded that many fans and alums at certain SEC schools are losing sleep over the potential that their student-athletes might be enrolled in fraudulent classes to keep them eligible. Those most likely to blow the whistle would probably be inviting unwelcome attention to themselves. As Sir Charles said, I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

So dumb is smart. George Orwell just pitchforked you. I don't disagree, but if it's so easy to look the other way it makes me wonder even more why unc didn't just cheat that way and be done with it.

[jimsumner]

I distinguish paying players and "improper benefits" from academic dishonesty. I care about the latter much more than the former.

Why? Aren't both forms of cheating designed to gain a competitive advantage?

[Duvall]

Why? Aren't both forms of cheating designed to gain a competitive advantage?

But only one can have serious repercussions for the University, its academic functions and the credentials of its alumni - all of which are much more important than any competitive advantage gained in sports.

[hurleyfor3]

Why? Aren't both forms of cheating designed to gain a competitive advantage?

Yes, but you're asking me about my preferences now, and academic dishonesty affects me in a way improper benefits don't, as I posted here (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?34412-I-mourn-for-UNC&p=751705#post751705).

[CameronBlue]

Why? Aren't both forms of cheating designed to gain a competitive advantage?

Not to put my tasty little bon mots, only chewed once, into Hurley's mouth, academic dishonesty strikes closer to the Unversity's mission, its raison d'etre. Put another way, as a holder of an MSPH from UNC I am angered, literally seething mad and struggling to remain seated, that the adminstrators, athletic department officials and their ball-licking sycophants who perpetrated this fraud took the University of Thomas Wolfe, Paul Green, Doris Betts among others and defecated on that legacy. The hubris of these people is no better exemplified than by Roy's "I'm not gonna talk about this CRAP" statement. The fools have no appreciation of the damage they've done.

[duke blue brewcrew]

I can't imagine that the final punishment would be this severe, but what if?!

http://www.aseaofblue.com/2014/10/29/7088551/a-terrifying-proposal

[Duvall]

I can't imagine that the final punishment would be this severe, but what if?!

http://www.aseaofblue.com/2014/10/29/7088551/a-terrifying-proposal

That's not happening. Why worry about it?

[jimsumner]

I agree that academic dishonesty strikes at the heart of a university's mission. But I also think under-the-table payments to induce high-school athletes to attend your university also strikes at the heart of a university's mission. Different means, same ends.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I agree that academic dishonesty strikes at the heart of a university's mission. But I also think under-the-table payments to induce high-school athletes to attend your university also strikes at the heart of a university's mission. Different means, same ends.

I put academic integrity over sports every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Paying students one way or another to attend university may be illegal if you're an athlete, but it happens all the time with us non-athletic folks (stipends in addition to scholarship, your grandfather or family friend giving you $10,000 in cash to attend his/her alma mater, etc) with complete legality. I get that athletes are put on pedestals and live by a stricter standard from a financial perspective than non-athletes, and that's why we have the NCAA.

Put a university that doesn't stress academics is a shame. If Coach K was taped giving a student money (which we all know wouldn't happen), I'd be upset and take a verbal beating from my friends. But if there was an academic scandal that hit 3,000+ students over 18 years, I'd be disgusted in my university.

I am a proud Duke alumni first, second, and third, and a Duke basketball fan fourth.

[jimsumner]

I put academic integrity over sports every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Paying students one way or another to attend university may be illegal if you're an athlete, but it happens all the time with us non-athletic folks (stipends in addition to scholarship, your grandfather or family friend giving you $10,000 in cash to attend his/her alma mater, etc) with complete legality. I get that athletes are put on pedestals and live by a stricter standard from a financial perspective than non-athletes, and that's why we have the NCAA.

Put a university that doesn't stress academics is a shame. If Coach K was taped giving a student money (which we all know wouldn't happen), I'd be upset and take a verbal beating from my friends. But if there was an academic scandal that hit 3,000+ students over 18 years, I'd be disgusted in my university.

I am a proud Duke alumni first, second, and third, and a Duke basketball fan fourth.

I believe you are giving us false equivalency. A grandparent giving a student money to attend his/her alma mater is not remotely similar to a booster paying an athlete to attend his/her school. No one outside a small family circle roots for Farnsworth Throckmorton III to attend Ivy U so that Ivy U can crush Cow Tech in English Lit.

Paying a player to attend or stay at a school for athletic reasons is an attempt to illegally circumvent the concept of a level playing field and gain a competitive advantage not available through legitimate means.

Creating and maintaining a system of bogus courses for athletes is an attempt to illegally circumvent the concept of a level playing field and gain a competitive advantage not available through legitimate means.

Two sides of the same coin. In both cases, you have an athletic infrastructure undermining the core values of the school.

What university or college wouldn't (or shouldn't) regard illegal benefits to student-athletes as an affront to the academic stature of that school? Not one with whom I would want to be associated with.

[roywhite]

Paying a player to attend or stay at a school for athletic reasons is an attempt to illegally circumvent the concept of a level playing field and gain a competitive advantage not available through legitimate means.

Creating and maintaining a system of bogus courses for athletes is an attempt to illegally circumvent the concept of a level playing field and gain a competitive advantage not available through legitimate means.

Two sides of the same coin. In both cases, you have an athletic infrastructure undermining the core values of the school.

What university or college wouldn't (or shouldn't) regard illegal benefits to student-athletes as an affront to the academic stature of that school? Not one with whom I would want to be associated with.

I don't find there to be an equivalence here, certainly not in the UNC case. Their case involves academic and athletic corruption over a number of years, involving not only athletic department personnel, but a department head, department administrator, numerous academic counselors, and over 3000 students, with either total lack of oversight or willful blindness on the part of the top levels of their administration. That IMO is much worse than instances of prospects given illegal payments to attend a certain school.

By the way, didn't UNC commit offenses in both of these areas; for example, in the recruitment of Marvin Austin and others for football.

[Henderson]

I believe you are giving us false equivalency. A grandparent giving a student money to attend his/her alma mater is not remotely similar to a booster paying an athlete to attend his/her school. No one outside a small family circle roots for Farnsworth Throckmorton III to attend Ivy U so that Ivy U can crush Cow Tech in English Lit.

Paying a player to attend or stay at a school for athletic reasons is an attempt to illegally circumvent the concept of a level playing field and gain a competitive advantage not available through legitimate means.

Creating and maintaining a system of bogus courses for athletes is an attempt to illegally circumvent the concept of a level playing field and gain a competitive advantage not available through legitimate means.

Two sides of the same coin. In both cases, you have an athletic infrastructure undermining the core values of the school.

What university or college wouldn't (or shouldn't) regard illegal benefits to student-athletes as an affront to the academic stature of that school? Not one with whom I would want to be associated.

I generally agree with this, and your emphasis on "illegal" benefits. But let me play devil's advocate without advocating unlimited benefits from boosters.

The NCAA has rules, and they exist for a reason. Like them or not, they are the rules. And getting a stipend from grandpa to attend XYZ University is OK, but getting a stipend from a booster to attend XYZ University is not. Got it. Rules try to offer a level playing field or at least a metric against which violations can be measured, and that's a good thing.

But are the two examples (Grandpa vs. Booster) really so different? One is permitted, and the other is not, and that's important, because rules are important. But Grandpa can say, "I'll pay for it all and give you mad money if you play ball for my alma mater." If the local car dealer says, "I'll pay for it and give you mad money if you play ball for my alma mater," that's prohibited. The difference is hard for me to see. The rule seems to benefit kids with well-off grandfathers.

Leaving aside the NCAA rules (again, important IMHO), if we look at it from a clean slate point of view, I'm not sure there's all that much difference. In one system, there is a recruiting advantage for schools with rich boosters willing to pony up; in the other, there is a recruiting advantage for scions of rich alums. Right now, rich student-athletes get nice cars, and poor student-athletes are not supposed to have them.

From the kid's point of view, he probably doesn't care where the extra cash comes from. But the NCAA definitely cares.

So I don't know. You have to play by the rules, bottom line. Do the rules make sense? I'm less sure.

BTW, I fixed the last sentence for you, because I know you are all about accuracy. :)

[cspan37421]

the article is a bit sensationalist. there is little chance UNC loses their accreditation. there are two official stages before that: warning and probation...neither of which UNC was put on after the martin report. they were being "monitored"...

In realpolitik, you are probably right.

However, if you think about the mangitude of the fraud they perpetrated, it is hard to justify NOT skipping those stages and going right for the hammer.

If someone was found to have committed grand larceny thousands of times over an 18 year period, would they get a warning or probation if they were a first-time offender?

IMO the credibility of SACS and the NCAA is at stake here. Penalties must be severe lest they just be considered an acceptable "the cost of doing business" (i.e., the cost of buying titles and raking in sports dollars).

[cspan37421]

If Coach K was taped giving a student money (which we all know wouldn't happen), I'd be upset and take a verbal beating from my friends.

For some reason this reminded me of Coach Harrick's "How many points is a 3-point shot worth" question.

I thought, it would be funny if we had the kind of critical thinkers on our team who would respond with, "it depends ... was the player fouled on the shot?"

[BD80]

... "How many points is a 3-point shot worth" ...?

None if it doesn't go in. -2 if the missed shot directly leads to a fast break basket. +2 if the shot is rebounded and dunked ...

The lawyer in me would respond: "How many points does the client need it to be?"

[Newton_14]

None if it doesn't go in. -2 if the missed shot directly leads to a fast break basket. +2 if the shot is rebounded and dunked ...

The lawyer in me would respond: "How many points does the client need it to be?"
Come on BD, how could you have missed this one...

+2 if the opposing team's center tips it in for you.:)

[snowdenscold]

The lawyer in me would respond: "How many points does the client need it to be?"

I thought that was the punch line of an economist joke ;)


Come on BD, how could you have missed this one...

+2 if the opposing team's center tips it in for you. :)
Ahh, I still have one of these memes saved on my laptop:

4433

[oldnavy]

I generally agree with this, and your emphasis on "illegal" benefits. But let me play devil's advocate without advocating unlimited benefits from boosters.

The NCAA has rules, and they exist for a reason. Like them or not, they are the rules. And getting a stipend from grandpa to attend XYZ University is OK, but getting a stipend from a booster to attend XYZ University is not. Got it. Rules try to offer a level playing field or at least a metric against which violations can be measured, and that's a good thing.

But are the two examples (Grandpa vs. Booster) really so different? One is permitted, and the other is not, and that's important, because rules are important. But Grandpa can say, "I'll pay for it all and give you mad money if you play ball for my alma mater." If the local car dealer says, "I'll pay for it and give you mad money if you play ball for my alma mater," that's prohibited. The difference is hard for me to see. The rule seems to benefit kids with well-off grandfathers.

Leaving aside the NCAA rules (again, important IMHO), if we look at it from a clean slate point of view, I'm not sure there's all that much difference. In one system, there is a recruiting advantage for schools with rich boosters willing to pony up; in the other, there is a recruiting advantage for scions of rich alums. Right now, rich student-athletes get nice cars, and poor student-athletes are not supposed to have them.

From the kid's point of view, he probably doesn't care where the extra cash comes from. But the NCAA definitely cares.

So I don't know. You have to play by the rules, bottom line. Do the rules make sense? I'm less sure.

BTW, I fixed the last sentence for you, because I know you are all about accuracy. :)

I guess the idea is that:

The rich grand parent will have limited effect on the college landscape. He or she would have a presumably small number of Division I level talented grandchildren to benefit.

Whereas a rich car dealer could have a much larger impact because he or she would have unlimited "grand children" to benefit over years and years.

[uh_no]

In realpolitik, you are probably right.

However, if you think about the mangitude of the fraud they perpetrated, it is hard to justify NOT skipping those stages and going right for the hammer.

If someone was found to have committed grand larceny thousands of times over an 18 year period, would they get a warning or probation if they were a first-time offender?

IMO the credibility of SACS and the NCAA is at stake here. Penalties must be severe lest they just be considered an acceptable "the cost of doing business" (i.e., the cost of buying titles and raking in sports dollars).

I'm skeptical that the cedibility of the SACS is at stake.

Further, you have to have an understanding of what the penalties mean when you're passing judgement.

Probation, which is the highest sanction less than dis-accreditation, is spelled out as


Failure to correct deficiencies or failure to make satisfactory progress toward compliance

Which means in my reading "we told you to fix xyz and you didn't". As there is no evidence that UNC continued their shady practices after the martin report, there's no justification to put them on probation, let alone recove accreditation. The sanctions are not simply "levels 1 2 and 3" where you assign a sanction based on the severity....they have quite specific meannings, and the document (linked below) makes it clear, in my opinion, that schools have the opportunity to correct issues once placed on warning. From the commission's perspective, I do not believe it matters that it was 3000 instead of 30, or 18 years instead of 1. UNC was being "monitored" before the weinstein report came out. They will probably receive a warning now.

http://www.sacscoc.org/pdf/081705/sanction%20policy.pdf

[cspan37421]

Thanks for that link. Your reasoning appears sound, that they have "corrected the problem" (or appear to have ... I would not be surprised if they subsequently went fishing for grade-friendly professors with an affinity for independent studies).

But my impression is that UNC has not been forthcoming throughout the process ... that indeed, with each re-examination the problems have been shown to be more systemic and of longer duration than previously admitted. On the first page of your helpful link is the following:

Therefore, evidence of withholding information, providing inaccurate information to the public, or failing to provide timely information to the
Commission may be construed as an indication of the lack of a full commitment to integrity and may result in the
imposition of sanctions or removal of accreditation.

So a case can be made, IMO, that "correcting the deficiencies" of their compliance with requests for information ... that is clearly indicative of a lack of full commitment to integrity, regardless of what they did with the bogus AFAM classes.

On page 2 it notes that an institution can be put on probation whether or not it was been on warning already. So at least that step can be skipped. There appears to be "usually" a two-year monitoring period for these sanctions, but "A serious instance of noncompliance or repeated instances of noncompliance may result in removal of membership without a monitoring period."

Based on this article:

http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2014-10-30/ncaa-unc-academic-scandal-accreditation-roy-williams-tar-heels-fake-classes-sacs

it appears that SACS is willing to consider the Wainstein report to be a new issue, so a "new clock" started (else they'd have about 60 days left!). But the idea that something could come out by the end of next week is very interesting.

I actually do agree in part with Provost Dean's claim that the fraud was relatively confined. I have little doubt that kids majoring in mathematics, economics, psychology, etc., are getting good educations and the faculty is active in research. But I'm not sure it's OK to maintain a little corner of deep fraud for 18 years to benefit the revenue sports athletes who will not or cannot perform college level work to stay eligible to bring in $$ for the school by wearing its uniform in front of TV cameras. I suppose this gets to what accreditation means. Does it mean all programs meet minimum standards, or does it mean that the supermajority of them do, while allowing some courses and maybe departments to be academic Potemkin villages?

Well it's an interesting thing to watch play out. Pass the popcorn, right?