What should UNC's punishment be?

[UrinalCake]

By now you've probably had a chance to digest the Wainstein report and subsequent reaction. It went much farther and exposed much more than most people thought it would. While some are still clamoring that it was not damning enough - it attempted to place all of the blame on Crowder, Nyan'goro, and to a lesser extent Welden, three people who conveniently are no longer employed by the university and two of whom have accepted plea bargains to avoid federal indictment; meanwhile exonerating all of the current coaching staff - it nevertheless was quite a bombshell to be dropped.

So my question to the forum is, what should the school's punishment be? I'm speaking only in terms of basketball. You can answer this in a couple different ways. What punishment would make you as a Duke fan feel satisfied that they have paid the price for their cheating? What do you think would be fair, in comparison to punishments that have been handed down to other schools? What level of punishment would provide sufficient deterrent to other schools from cheating?

Most fans seem to want option 1 - strike all the games during the period when the fake classes existed. Take down the banners. They were using ineligible players, so the games shouldn't count.

The argument for option 2 would be that it would hurt them NOW, and therefore have a greater impact today than would removing things that already happened. They would essentially be receiving the death penalty, and their program would realistically be unable to compete for the foreseeable future. Similar to what Penn State received.

What do you think?

[Duvall]

They should be forced to paint everything on their campus an ugly and garish color.

It's hard to see the point in punishments aimed at the school. But coaches like Roy Williams, Sylvia Hatchell and Anson Dorrance that benefited from the eligibility scheme in documented ways but could not be bothered to raise the issue with the administration should be asked to announce their retirements within the year.

[PackMan97]

I think vacating every win they've had for the past 18 years is a good start.

I think post-season bans is appropriate. 1 year ban for each year of post-season that was ill-gotten. For example, if it is found women's soccer cheated in 7 seasons, they get a 7 season ban. If basketball was found to cheat for 15 seasons and made the NCAA in 12 of those (thanks Doh!) they get a 12 year ban.

I think the same application should be made for student athletes that cheated. If 45 men's basketball players cheated, they should lose 45 basketball scholarships over a certain amount of time.

Make the punishment directly related to the crime.

Oh ya, and they should be made to leave the banners up but have to slap a big ol' red "VACATED" on them. Never let them forget.

[OldPhiKap]

I will let UNC off with absolutely no penalty whatsoever, as long as they publicly admit that Dean Smith was a pompous fraud who set up this entire scheme because Duke won back-to-back National Championships in 1991 and 1992.

Because, it's the damn truth. Political correctness be damned.

[JasonEvans]

Ummm, could we set up some poll options that are actually real and not just the delusional fantasy of Duke/NC State fans?

The NCAA is not going to take away half of Carolina's basketball scholarships for the next 5 years. They are not going to slap Carolina with a 4+ year post-season ban. Those are near death-penalty kind of steps and there is zero chance the NCAA treats a marquee, money-making program like UNC in that fashion.

I guess it might be possible to see a large number of wins vacated, but they are not going to wipe out hundreds of games. It just isn't going to happen. I am not sure the evidence in the Wainstein report justifies that anyway. Did he specifically document that at least one cheating player was on the team every year?

-Jason "Let me think a bit about some more realistic punishments..." Evans

[PackMan97]

I thought this was a what SHOULD the punishment be, not what WILL the punishment be. Two very different questions.

[CameronBlue]

I'm still not convinced that the NCAA has the strength of will to do what they SHOULD do. I'd almost be surprised if they asked for transcripts which they should. They can no longer hide behind the academic scandal excuse, which should've embarrassed them to start. The Wainstein report, with which Folt has concurred, has established that athletes were ineligible and that the athletic department shares culpability. We're talking about a culture of cheating--systemic--not just a few bad apples, even if the architect was solely Crowder. It should be the NCAA's responsibility now to establish exactly who was ineligible and penalize accordingly, vacating wins and titles purloined by teams with ineligible players. That would be by the very book the NCAA has writ, consistent with past judgements.

[BigWayne]

Compare the depth and breadth of the UNC scandal to that at Minnesota and the punishments they received:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Minnesota_basketball_scandal

Of course nobody expects the NCAA to do the same thing they did in Minnesota, but they should.
That would mean vacating games from 1993 onward and paying back a LOT of money gained from tournament appearances and bowl games.

[Reilly]

Take away recess? No popsicles for the next three Fridays? Whatever the modern equivalent of staying after school and banging the chalk out of the erasers is (cleaning the lint from inside the computer mouse?)?

I would say cancel next year's book fair but, well, y'know ....

[arnie]

I'm still not convinced that the NCAA has the strength of will to do what they SHOULD do. I'd almost be surprised if they asked for transcripts which they should. They can no longer hide behind the academic scandal excuse, which should've embarrassed them to start. The Wainstein report, with which Folt has concurred, has established that athletes were ineligible and that the athletic department shares culpability. We're talking about a culture of cheating--systemic--not just a few bad apples, even if the architect was solely Crowder. It should be the NCAA's responsibility now to establish exactly who was ineligible and penalize accordingly, vacating wins and titles purloined by teams with ineligible players. That would be by the very book the NCAA has writ, consistent with past judgements.

Very telling short para in N&O this morning. Swofford's only published comments are how long NCAA investigations take to complete. Essentially saying NCAA is the problem here. I think he can thwart the process- no further penalties is my guess.

[wilko]

As much as I would like to see a 30 ban on pastels and having UNC be known as a girls soccer school ONLY! (that notion amuses me); I'd forgive the NCAA if they tried to do something really thoughtful and progressive here.

This could be an opportunity, to say, "OK who else is doing this.... come forward now and regardless of how deep and severe it is - all will get the same "light-ish" punishment. If we find out later you are doing this we are busting you down to Div III - no questions asked"

If the NCAA did this RIGHT, they could use it as a basis to really clean things up and put the emphasis back on the student mission. In fact, this type of action *may* be their 1st and best hope to avoid paying players at some point in the future.

[moonpie23]

The NCAA isn't worried about UNC. They are worried about losing their business model. All it would take would be for a few of the football powers and a few of the basketball powers to ask themselves: "why are we letting the NCAA get all that money when we could just get it ourselves?"


giving UNC some HARD punishment would just feed into the fear that the big athletic-driven schools resent anyway...

[BD80]

ol' roy, fedora and the entire unc administration should be forced to stand on their heads in a stagnant river of poo for all eternity (Chansky too!)

[lotusland]

ol' roy, fedora and the entire unc administration should be forced to stand on their heads in a stagnant river of poo for all eternity (Chansky too!)

At very least they should be banned from choosing restaurants for team meals for the next 18-years.

[JasonEvans]

Ok, which would bother Carolina fans more:


1- A couple hundred of Dean's wins are removed from his record, making him a distant also-ran in the winningest coach race that he once led
2- A couple hundred of UNC's wins are removed making it pretty much impossible for them to jockey with Kentucky for the all-time winningest program
3- The 2005 national championship is vacated, banner removed and record books expunged
4- They get a 1 year ban on postseason play starting now
5- They lose 2 scholarships for the next 4 years

I think #4 or #5 would be a lot more troubling to them, though if Dean was still #1 in wins (not #3 to Knight and K) they might care a lot more about preserving his legacy at the top.

-Jason

[CameronBornAndBred]

I think the 2005 banner definitely needs to come down. Even if only one banner gets yanked from the rafters, I'll be happy. The UNC faithful cry about how it's all in the past, no sense in punishing the future. Fine, so be it. The NCAA still should punish their history.

[moonpie23]

after reading IC for about 2 mins, i'd say "all of the above"...

[Duvall]

Ok, which would bother Carolina fans more:


1- A couple hundred of Dean's wins are removed from his record, making him a distant also-ran in the winningest coach race that he once led
2- A couple hundred of UNC's wins are removed making it pretty much impossible for them to jockey with Kentucky for the all-time winningest program
3- The 2005 national championship is vacated, banner removed and record books expunged
4- They get a 1 year ban on postseason play starting now
5- They lose 2 scholarships for the next 4 years

I think #4 or #5 would be a lot more troubling to them, though if Dean was still #1 in wins (not #3 to Knight and K) they might care a lot more about preserving his legacy at the top.

-Jason

Krzyzewski, Boeheim, Calipari and Self are making #1 and #2 a reality regardless of punishment, so that doesn't seem like much of a penalty.

[roywhite]

As much as I would like to see a 30 ban on pastels and having UNC be known as a girls soccer school ONLY! (that notion amuses me); I'd forgive the NCAA if they tried to do something really thoughtful and progressive here.



Didn't the report contain some reference to women's soccer players also being steered toward the phony classes?

[Duvall]

The NCAA isn't worried about UNC. They are worried about losing their business model. All it would take would be for a few of the football powers and a few of the basketball powers to ask themselves: "why are we letting the NCAA get all that money when we could just get it ourselves?"


giving UNC some HARD punishment would just feed into the fear that the big athletic-driven schools resent anyway...

What are you talking about? All the football money is going to the power conferences now.

[Reilly]

... Even if only one banner gets yanked from the rafters, I'll be happy ...

So we're going to end up with a solemn ceremony lowering the 1973 Third Place NIT banner, some speechifying by Dickie Baddour (repping the past) about how this is painful for the Carolina family, and a few sniffles from the popped collar crowd. Reception (trays of peanut-butter-and-pepper balls) in the Blue Zone to follow.

[BD80]

Didn't the report contain some reference to women's soccer players also being steered toward the phony classes?

Well, that could mean 10 less championship banners for the heels:

1993, 1994, 1996, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2003, 2006, 2008, 2009

[wilko]

Didn't the report contain some reference to women's soccer players also being steered toward the phony classes?

Quite probably.
I guess I should have picked another non-revenue sport that they are good at - to better emasculate them.
I quite like the the idea of having them be great at something the majority of the UNC fan-base doesn't care about.

[UrinalCake]

The NCAA is not going to take away half of Carolina's basketball scholarships for the next 5 years. They are not going to slap Carolina with a 4+ year post-season ban. Those are near death-penalty kind of steps and there is zero chance the NCAA treats a marquee, money-making program like UNC in that fashion.

I disagree. Penn State is a marquee, money-making football program and they gave them the death penalty. The NCAA would have lost too much in the court of public opinion to do nothing. Also, how much money does the UNC basketball program really bring to the NCAA? Most of their money comes from March Madness TV revenue, and that's not going to take a hige hit because of the loss of a single program, even a traditional power like UNC. I'm not saying it would cost them nothing to have UNC sanctioned into the Stone Age, but I don't think it's as much as people think.

As to the five scenarios you presented, I think losing the 2005 banner would bother UNC fans the most. Dean being #3 on the all-time wins list isn't a big deal, and current fans don't remember him at all anyways. The all-time wins record is important, but ultimately it's all about titles.

[Highlander]

The Breadth of this scandal is what makes it difficult to punish. While Football was the main culprit (half of the athletes were football players), the other half were not. You've got men's basketball, women's basketball, a host of olympic sports, and then over half of the participants who were non-athletes. I like the idea of UNC giving every single sport a single year postseason ban as punishment (maybe two for football). My problem is that postseason bans punish players and (most likely) coaches who had nothing to do with the scandal.

Championships are dicey as well. Men's Basketball and Women's soccer are the most obvious ones, but Women's basketball won a title in '94, Field hockey three from '95-'97. That's around 11 total championships that could potentially be vacated. Never heard of the NCAA enforcing anything to that scale, but it is possible. I think you could make a case to vacate a championship if a player who played in that tournament had an adjusted GPA below 2.0 when the fraudulent classes were removed. I think that's the only way the Soccer or Basketball banners come down. It could take months to sort this all out.

I do think Football is going to have to vacate pretty much everything they did during the 1990's.

[TKG]

For the bmen's basketball program:
2005 National Championship expunged
Post season ban for two years

[OldPhiKap]

UNC would be smart to self-impose something before the NCAA does, hoping that the NCAA will go along with it. But the gold that everyone has their eye on is that 2005 MBB banner.

[Duvall]

I do think Football is going to have to vacate pretty much everything they did during the 1990's.

Yes, UNC football will have to vacate all their championships from 1993 to 2011. A tough punishment, but a fair one.

I do like the idea of a one year department-wide postseason ban. An unprecedented penalty to match an unprecedented scheme, but more of a short, sharp shock.

[JasonEvans]

I disagree. Penn State is a marquee, money-making football program and they gave them the death penalty.

Penn St had their football scholarships dropped by 40 over 4 years (an average of 10 per year) and their scholarship total limited to 65 versus the 85 allowed at other Div 1 programs. That isn't nearly as strong as taking away half of Carolina's basketball scholarships. It is more like limiting Carolina to about 10 scholarships versus the usual 13. I could see something like that happening to UNC along with maybe a 2 year post-season ban, but would be shocked if the NCAA took the Heels down to 6 or 7 total scholarships. That would be a death penalty for Carolina.

-Jason "the tone of the articles I am reading today makes me think the penalties may be worse than I thought... lots of anger in the journalism world this AM" Evans

[jipops]

They are already punished... via the fact that they are UNC.

[Matches]

Un-doing or vacating results from past games has always felt like an empty exercise to me. I appreciate the idea that cheaters shouldn't profit from their bad acts, but the games are what they are - you can take down the banner but that has always felt to me like a technicality. As far as I'm concerned the 2005 NCAAT is an obvious joke at this point - it's almost harsher to make them leave the banner up next to the others.

I expect the football program is going to get nailed here - probably a multi-year postseason ban and a loss of scholarships, in the 5-10 range. I don't think MBB will be unscathed either but it won't get hit as hard as football. (Those emails and such from the football people are hugely damning.)

[UrinalCake]

My problem is that postseason bans punish players and (most likely) coaches who had nothing to do with the scandal.

I agree that it's not fair to the current players, but I think you have to do it in order to punish the program. Here's my reasoning:

Let's say you're a struggling program who hasn't sniffed the tournament in ages. An opportunity to cheat presents itself, and you're trying to decide whether to do it. Now let's say you know that if you cheat and win a bunch of titles, and then get caught, the only penalty you'll incur is having to give up those titles. If that were the case, and assuming you have absolutely no moral compass, then of course you would choose to cheat. You're not winning any titles now, so if the worse case scenario is having to give back titles that the cheating allowed you to win, then why not do it? It's like saying if you get caught robbing a bank then the only punishment is having to repay the money.

So IMO the punishment has to go beyond just repaying what you took. If the current players get screwed over, so be it. The NCAA does have rules in place that allow current players to transfer without sitting out a year IF the school is banned from postseason play for the remainder of their time there. I think this should go further and allow everyone to transfer. I mean if I'm a freshman and the school gets banned from the postseason for 3 years, I'm not allowed to transfer because I would get one year of postseason eligibility as a senior? That seems wrong.

Also, I don't really see postseason bans as much of a punishment. Certainly not for UNC football, which isn't going anywhere. I think reducing scholarships is much more meaningful. Maybe the net effect is the same, because being ineligible for the postseason means they'll probably lose recruits, but postseason bans still seem pretty weak to me.

[BD80]

Un-doing or vacating results from past games has always felt like an empty exercise to me. I appreciate the idea that cheaters shouldn't profit from their bad acts, but the games are what they are - you can take down the banner but that has always felt to me like a technicality. As far as I'm concerned the 2005 NCAAT is an obvious joke at this point - it's almost harsher to make them leave the banner up next to the others. ...

Make unc embroider HELMS - IN VERY LARGE LETTERS - across the 2005 banner

[PackMan97]

Quite probably.
I guess I should have picked another non-revenue sport that they are good at - to better emasculate them.
I quite like the the idea of having them be great at something the majority of the UNC fan-base doesn't care about.

Funny that you should mention Women's soccer. Let's take a look at what that program has done since the AFAM program started shutting down the fake classes 4-5 years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Carolina_Tar_Heels_women's_soccer#All-Time_Record
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Carolina_Tar_Heels_women's_soccer#All-Time_Record)
2010 19–3–2 9–3–0 Semifinals Third Round
2011 13–5–2 6–3–1 Quarterfinals Third Round
2012 15–5–3 6–3–1 Quarterfinals Champions
2013 20–5–0 10–3–0 Semifinals Quarterfinals

Prior to 2010, UNC had never missed an ACC title game. Now they have missed 4.
Prior to 2010, UNC had lost three games in a season twice (1980 w/ 5 and 2007 w/ 4), now they have lost 5 in each of the past three seasons.
Prior to 2010, UNC has only two stretches where they failed to make the Final Four over a TWO year stretch, one of those is since AFAM shut down.

Here is the bomb from the report...

Women’s soccer counselor Brent Blanton (“Blanton”) acknowledged that he often directed players who also played on the U.S. National Team toward these classes. Blanton and the athletes contended, however, that these classes were not used to keep students eligible, but simply as a means of reducing their workload. One baseball player explained that he routinely took one paper class a semester to offset the four other demanding classes he took.

Wouldn't it be awesome if athletes could spend less time in class, so they had more practice time? or could devote that time to making better grades in other classes and help keep them eligible? Any way you cut it whether these courses were used for eligibility or reducing workload it was a decided competitive advantage and I think the results on the field prove that.

[budwom]

It's especially nice to look at this from the academic point of view, especially as seen from non sports fans.

Of course Duke fans and NC State fans are rejoicing....but what I especially appreciate are the appalling details which
the academic side of unc (and there really is one) is going to have to deal with.

- Boxill, the head of the faculty at one point and an author of several books on ethics, suggesting grades for papers she never read.

- 18 years of extensive academic fraud. Gobs of detail available....great one I saw today as more stuff is digested and publicized: Crowder wrote an
email to two unc athletes advising them they had submitted identical (crappy) AFAm papers....D'oh!

Should have been grounds for obvious expulsion, but not at unc. That institution has taken a huge hit whether or not
unc alum and fans want to admit it or not. Shameful.

[BD80]

... Here is the bomb from the report...


Women’s soccer counselor Brent Blanton (“Blanton”) acknowledged that he often directed players who also played on the U.S. National Team toward these classes. Blanton and the athletes contended, however, that these classes were not used to keep students eligible, but simply as a means of reducing their workload. ....

Problem with that argument is the conclusion in the report that the fraudulent classes DID keep many athletes eligible who would NOT have been eligible but for the fraudulent grades in the fraudulent courses.

So even if one were to buy the argument that the AFAM fraud gave the athletes more time to work on other classes, many STILL did not do well enough in those other classes to maintain eligibility

[PackMan97]

Problem with that argument is the conclusion in the report that the fraudulent classes DID keep many athletes eligible who would NOT have been eligible but for the fraudulent grades in the fraudulent courses.

So even if one were to buy the argument that the AFAM fraud gave the athletes more time to work on other classes, many STILL did not do well enough in those other classes to maintain eligibility

Imagine an athlete who has no issues with their grades, if they are taking 5 classes a semester, that is probably a 40-60 hour work load and is going to eat into practice time, time in the gym, time in the film room. Take 10-15 hours off their workload and how much of that time gets spent in the gym, the weight room, or the film room to give those athletes a competitive advantage?

[_Gary]

I proudly clicked the first option. As a Duke fan through and through, do I really need to explain? :D

In all seriousness, this is a huge deal and I really do believe they should have to forfeit their wins and titles from the 2000's. That's not at all unreasonable.

And who here really believes Huck can honestly claim plausible deniability?

[JTH]

He would probably say that the NCAA will severely punish Cleveland State.

[burnspbesq]

For every year in which any player who would have been ineligible but for a grade in a bogus class participated, one year of probation and one lost scholarship.

[Duke95]

I expect the NCAA will force UNC to write Wisconsin on the board 100 times, effectively quadrupling the academic difficulty previously levied on its student athletes.

[OldPhiKap]

1. For every semester in which a UNC team played with an athlete who would have been ineligible but for the paper classes, vacate those wins (and any titles that may have been garnered). They played with ineligible players, period.

2. Post-season ban on all teams which used such a tainted player, for a year.

3. Loss of 20% of scholarships in each such tainted sport, each year, for the next five years.

[devildeac]

UNC would be smart to self-impose something before the NCAA does, hoping that the NCAA will go along with it. But the gold that everyone has their eye on is that 2005 MBB banner.

Bubba (I think) was quoted in the N&O this am saying no self-imposed sanctions. More sanctimonious sputtering. The ncaa has their 132 page report/evidence. It will take a while to sort out. If the cheaters do nothing, the ncaa really should be strict/heavy-handed and vacate (lots of) wins, bring down a banner or three (or more), remove scholarships (multiple years and multiple sports) and impose post-season bans. Not sure what those numbers should be realistically. Or if any of that will occur. I'll ponder some numbers over a Ymm, beer post or two this evening;).

[Mike Corey]

I'd also like to see UNC re-enroll the 3,100 students at no cost to the students, and provide them with the educational opportunity they were to have been afforded when they originally matriculated.

[Wander]

I disagree. Penn State is a marquee, money-making football program and they gave them the death penalty.

They did?

[uh_no]

I'd also like to see UNC re-enroll the 3,100 students at no cost to the students, and provide them with the educational opportunity they were to have been afforded when they originally matriculated.

This is one of my larger questions....what happens to the sham degrees that were awarded? The accreditation group already had them on probation, is this enough of a bigger smoking gun? Will the university be forced to revoke degrees in order to maintain standing? I would love to see the university to say "we didn't do right by you, mr athlete, but we want to fix it. Come back and take real classes and get a real degree.

[MChambers]

Take away the NC banners (they can keep Helms), and employ Matt Doherty as head coach for the next 20 years, since he's the only coach who looked into this issue.

[Mike Corey]

I would love to see the university to say "we didn't do right by you, mr athlete, but we want to fix it. Come back and take real classes and get a real degree.

To me, this is hugely important.

The sort of disrespect shown to athletes at UNC--and well beyond, sadly--in funneling them through certain coursework (fictitious and otherwise) and doing it under the guise of making it easier for them, or accommodating them, or worse, educating them--is at the crux of the problem with big-time college athletics...but I suspect if we looked closely, we would see these problems well before college. The moment someone tells a child, "Don't worry about class, focus on X sport," we've done a disservice. The two can and should go hand in hand: sport should be an extension of, not replacement for, the classroom...even where athletics are played at the highest levels. If we can't do the latter, when we need to change the way we operate to make the latter a realistic possibility.

[Highlander]

To me, this is hugely important.

The sort of disrespect shown to athletes at UNC--and well beyond, sadly--in funneling them through certain coursework (fictitious and otherwise) and doing it under the guise of making it easier for them, or accommodating them, or worse, educating them--is at the crux of the problem with big-time college athletics...but I suspect if we looked closely, we would see these problems well before college. The moment someone tells a child, "Don't worry about class, focus on X sport," we've done a disservice. The two can and should go hand in hand: sport should be an extension of, not replacement for, the classroom...even where athletics are played at the highest levels. If we can't do the latter, when we need to change the way we operate to make the latter a realistic possibility.

Posted in the other thread - looks like they are doing some things to make reparations to former students, although degrees stand regardless for anyone gone for over a year.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/06/20/2977833_unc-ch-will-be-monitored-not-sanctioned.html?rh=1

[UrinalCake]

I'd also like to see UNC re-enroll the 3,100 students at no cost to the students, and provide them with the educational opportunity they were to have been afforded when they originally matriculated.

I thought they already did this - they set up a way for students in the fake classes to retake them for free. But then there was little to no interest from any former students, so it just sort of fell by the wayside. As it turns out, people who take fake classes aren't really interested in taking real classes, even when offered the chance.

(Googles...) yep, here's a link http://chapelboro.com/news/unc/students-alumni-not-taking-advantage-of-make-up-afam-classes/

[wilson]

Un-doing or vacating results from past games has always felt like an empty exercise to me. I appreciate the idea that cheaters shouldn't profit from their bad acts, but the games are what they are - you can take down the banner but that has always felt to me like a technicality. As far as I'm concerned the 2005 NCAAT is an obvious joke at this point - it's almost harsher to make them leave the banner up next to the others.


UNC would be smart to self-impose something before the NCAA does, hoping that the NCAA will go along with it. But the gold that everyone has their eye on is that 2005 MBB banner.Presumably, this comes in white. Should do the trick.
4394

[JasonEvans]

Fellow poster Tom B sent this to me (http://www.foxsports.com/college-football/story/north-carolina-academic-scandal-wainstein-report-investigation-ncaa-102214) via email. It is a must, must, must read about what this scandal says about the NCAA.

The column (by well-known and respected sports journalist Stewart Mandell) is incredibly blunt. It says this is a defining moment in NCAA enforcement.


It’s standard practice these days to mock the NCAA for its antiquated rules and haphazard enforcement of them, but the North Carolina report does not involve tattoos for memorabilia, free hotel stays or agent payments. It details systemic abuse of the one area the NCAA purportedly holds most dear. Its mission statement, according to president Mark Emmert, is “to be an integral part of higher education and to focus on the development of our student-athletes.” Those Enterprise rental car commercials, those “going pro in something other than sports” PSAs, the obsession with APR scores and Graduation Success Rates — all reinforce the NCAA’s stated-though-not-always-followed contention that academics are paramount to the college athlete’s experience.

So today, Emmert and the NCAA face a defining moment. What are they going to do about North Carolina? How do you appropriately reprimand a university whose employees spent 18 years making a mockery of higher education? Who put the competitive needs of athletics above the academic development of students? Who made “the most serious academic fraud violations in 20 years” — {Minnesota's} cheating basketball players — seem like child’s play when compared with the unfathomable scope of UNC’s “shadow curriculum.”

I suspect it may take a week or three for the NCAA to digest this, but could we see truly massive penalties coming out of this? I mean, one could quite reasonably argue that this is the worst scandal in NCAA history (far worse than merely paying players). It is certainly the worst academic scandal in history, right? As Mandell notes, Minnesota got 1 year postseason ban, vacated wins, and reduced scholarships for a somewhat similar academic scandal (basketball staffers writing papers for players) a few years ago. The Carolina scandal is several orders of magnitude worse and more pervasive. How can the NCAA not bring freaking Mjolnir down on UNC for all this?

-Jason "just read that column and imagine you are Mark Emmert as you read it. How can he not hit Carolina in a nearly unprecedented way? Could we see every single varsity sport get scholarship reductions and post-season bans?" Evans

[Duvall]

Could we see every single varsity sport get scholarship reductions and post-season bans?

"No." - ESPN, exclusive media rightsholder for North Carolina and the rest of the Atlantic Coast Conference.

[bbosbbos]

I do not think there will be any punishment to Holes.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

Why are we only concentrating on the 2005 championship? Isn't 2009 and for that matter 1993 included during the scandal? Didn't Hansborough himself take Swahili during his time at Chapel Hill? Just wondering why were only worried about 2005, I guess because of McCants and his admission that he didn't write some of his own work.

[bbosbbos]

I wish very serious punishments would be ahead for Holes.

But I think I am too wishful, same as you guys. How dare NCAA do any damage to their honey?

[sagegrouse]

I thought the Wainstein report would be a bombshell. Now the NCAA is going to lower the boom on UNC, including some major, major penalties going forward. How can they not? I mean, an academic administrator, not in any sense a faculty member, created and (easily) graded essentially no-requirement courses that were accepted for graduation and all other purposes. And all of this was done, as the advisory staff members and the administrator admit, to keep athletes eligible to play sports.

Will I end up feeling sorry for UNC for the end of its athletic program? If it's the death penalty, maybe so!

[Mike Corey]

Urinal and Highlander,

Thanks for posting the information above. I'll read all about that (seemingly excellent) aspect of UNC's response tonight. I really appreciate you bringing it to light.

One of the worst aspects of this entire and unfortunate situation--loathe UNC though I do on a superficial level, I think we all want all student-athletes to have a better academic experience and result than this--is that a common (and perhaps accurate) response to this nationwide has been, "Yeah, but this happens almost everywhere."

We must do better. Holding UNC accountable, while trying to remedy the past wrong of a stunted educational opportunity, seems like a necessary step in that direction.

[OldPhiKap]

a common (and perhaps accurate) response to this nationwide has been, "Yeah, but this happens almost everywhere."



I wholeheartedly agree with the entirety of your post. I do want to address this argument put out by the apologists, though.

This does not happen everywhere. It does not even happen in many places I would bet. We are not talking about easy courses. We are not talking about athletes taking easy schedules. We are talking about classes that did not actually exist, with grades given out by a non-faculty member, in a systematic scheme perpetrated over almost two decades with the full or tacit knowledge of dozens of administrators and agents of the athletic department.

This is far beyond the claim that schools help athletes get through school. This is fudging the numbers to keep eligibility, plain and simple.

[jv001]

I wholeheartedly agree with the entirety of your post. I do want to address this argument put out by the apologists, though.

This does not happen everywhere. It does not even happen in many places I would bet. We are not talking about easy courses. We are not talking about athletes taking easy schedules. We are talking about classes that did not actually exist, with grades given out by a non-faculty member, in a systematic scheme perpetrated over almost two decades with the full or tacit knowledge of dozens of administrators and agents of the athletic department.

This is far beyond the claim that schools help athletes get through school. This is fudging the numbers to keep eligibility, plain and simple.

Good points OldPhiKap; Blanche Taylor Moore(black widow) poisoned her husbands, but does that mean Ole Roy's wife can poison him and not be charged? This argument is plain out stupid. GoDuke!

[weezie]

Didn't Hansborough himself take Swahili during his time at Chapel Hill?

You guys are gonna make Tybone cry.

If this were ucla or usc or hhhmmmm msu or Duke the NCAA would burn the campus to the ground. But not the place with the septic field well cap down the road. Too many homers.

I fear we will be disappointed and disgusted.

[BigWayne]

http://i60.tinypic.com/33e61qo.jpg

[MarkD83]

Here is my creative solution. None of the UNC teams lose any scholarships. However, they must populate their rosters with the players who took AMFAM classes starting with the players in 1993. You can be removed from the roster and move to the next year's players as soon as the players that took AMFAM classes pass the same number of classes in a different area.

So in about 10 years the UNC roster would look like

Jackie Manuel - AFAM
Sean May - AFAM
David Noel - AFAM
Melvin Scott - AFAM
Reyshawn Terry - AFAM
Quentin Thomas - AFAM
Jawad Williams - AFAM
Rashad McCants - AFAM
Marvin Williams - AFAM

However, they would all be in their mid to late 30's playing against 18 year olds.

[MarkD83]

One other addition...the current coaches must remain at UNC until all of the players have completed the replacement classes.

[BD80]

Here is my creative solution. None of the UNC teams lose any scholarships. However, they must populate their rosters with the players who took AMFAM classes starting with the players in 1993. You can be removed from the roster and move to the next year's players as soon as the players that took AMFAM classes pass the same number of classes in a different area.

So in about 10 years the UNC roster would look like

Jackie Manuel - AFAM
Sean May - AFAM
David Noel - AFAM
Melvin Scott - AFAM
Reyshawn Terry - AFAM
Quentin Thomas - AFAM
Jawad Williams - AFAM
Rashad McCants - AFAM
Marvin Williams - AFAM

However, they would all be in their mid to late 30's playing against 18 year olds.

Present day Sean May is a real space eater.

Literally.

He is so large he can swallow galactic space. The Milky Way may not survive the upcoming Halloween.

[devildeac]

Present day Sean May is a real space eater.

Literally.

He is so large he can swallow galactic space. The Milky Way may not survive the upcoming Halloween.

Which Milky Way?

4396

or

4397

[JasonEvans]

Present day Sean May is a real space eater.

Literally.

He is so large he can swallow galactic space. The Milky Way may not survive the upcoming Halloween.

Ohmygod!!! So I went to google image to find a current picture of Sean playing for his French team and this is what I found. Yes, this is the body of a professional athlete.
Anyway, it just demands a caption contest!!! The other guy in the pic is John Cox, who played at South Florida in the early 2000s.

http://www.bebasket.fr/ul/2013/03/may_cox_legrand-424x300.jpg

Eurobasket says Sean weighs 266 pounds. I beg to differ. Dude looks like he's pushing 280, at least.

-Jason "someone funnier than me can come up with the caption" Evans

[BD80]

Ohmygod!!! So I went to google image to find a current picture of Sean playing for his French team and this is what I found. Yes, this is the body of a professional athlete.
Anyway, it just demands a caption contest!!! The other guy in the pic is John Cox, who played at South Florida in the early 2000s.

http://www.bebasket.fr/ul/2013/03/may_cox_legrand-424x300.jpg

Eurobasket says Sean weighs 266 pounds. I beg to differ. Dude looks like he's pushing 280, at least.

-Jason "someone funnier than me can come up with the caption" Evans

Might have been Kg

[roywhite]

Ohmygod!!! So I went to google image to find a current picture of Sean playing for his French team and this is what I found. Yes, this is the body of a professional athlete.
Anyway, it just demands a caption contest!!! The other guy in the pic is John Cox, who played at South Florida in the early 2000s.

http://www.bebasket.fr/ul/2013/03/may_cox_legrand-424x300.jpg

Eurobasket says Sean weighs 266 pounds. I beg to differ. Dude looks like he's pushing 280, at least.

-Jason "someone funnier than me can come up with the caption" Evans

Big Macs? Non....I prefer French cuisine.

[OldPhiKap]

Ohmygod!!! So I went to google image to find a current picture of Sean playing for his French team and this is what I found. Yes, this is the body of a professional athlete.
Anyway, it just demands a caption contest!!! The other guy in the pic is John Cox, who played at South Florida in the early 2000s.

http://www.bebasket.fr/ul/2013/03/may_cox_legrand-424x300.jpg

Eurobasket says Sean weighs 266 pounds. I beg to differ. Dude looks like he's pushing 280, at least.

-Jason "someone funnier than me can come up with the caption" Evans


Big Macs? Non....I prefer French cuisine.

Royale with cheese?

Wonder if Sean is Samoan.

[wilson]

http://www.bebasket.fr/ul/2013/03/may_cox_legrand-424x300.jpg

Eurobasket says Sean weighs 266 pounds. I beg to differ. Dude looks like he's pushing 280, at least.

-Jason "someone funnier than me can come up with the caption" Evans44024403

[weezie]

http://www.bebasket.fr/ul/2013/03/may_cox_legrand-424x300.jpg



d'oh ^2!!!

[JasonEvans]

Wilson wins!

44024403

[Henderson]

http://www.bebasket.fr/ul/2013/03/may_cox_legrand-424x300.jpg


"And Le Quadruple Royale with Cheese was only this big. I had to order four of 'em. Any better luck with a Whopper?"

"Dude, I keep telling you: 'Supersize it' is the same in French as it is in English. And I don't go into Burger King."

[brevity]

http://www.bebasket.fr/ul/2013/03/may_cox_legrand-424x300.jpg


44024403


Wilson wins!

Agreed; kudos to wilson. But...

SEAN MAY: Hey hey hey.

JOHN COX: Man, you're like an AFAM major at UNC, Sean May. No class.

[brevity]

(Sorry for the consecutive post, but a complete shift in tone follows.)

As for UNC's ideal punishment, I think it needs to be a culture change. They can keep the titles or whatever, but they forfeit the city of Charlotte and all statewide media. And they have to be hated the way Duke is hated. Which, by the way, is what they deserve. We talk at length about the sham academics, but the fact that it was based out of the AFAM department has not gotten nearly the amount of attention that it warrants. Not to get too PPB, but what UNC has done as a public institution over such a long period of time is way more detrimental to African-Americans than whatever vaguely exclusionary stereotype is associated with Duke.

I've always said that I don't really care if Duke is hated, just as long as Carolina is hated as well. Their free pass with the NCAA is frustrating, but their cultural free pass boggles the mind. Ideally, the radioactive fallout of this scandal should contaminate and kill any positive goodwill left at UNC by Michael Jordan.

In reality, though, the UNC academic scandal is analogous to the average Republican Party scandal: devastating, but so boring that most people aren't paying attention.

[davekay1971]

In reality, though, the UNC academic scandal is analogous to the average Republican Party scandal: devastating, but so boring that most people aren't paying attention.

Excellent comparison. I found the rampant actions of a mid-level player, encouraged by operating in an environment where she felt empowered to break rules by either the open support or assumed approval of those above her, to be strongly reminiscent of the way in which Lois Lerner coordinated a scheme to persecute political opponents of her bosses. Even the response of the bosses in the two cases are eerily similar: feign indignation "if the allegations are true", promise to "get to the bottom of it", engage in a faux "internal investigation" designed entirely to whitewash the issue, play delaying tactics as the news cycles spin on, then dismiss the whole thing as "old news" being ginned up by the opposition, and effectively circle the wagons to make sure, whatever happened to any mid-level players involved, the really important bosses weren't touched. Heck, if Debbie Crowder is currently collected a six figure income on the taxpayer dime, the parallel would be complete...

Except Crowder finally talked and UNC finally hired a real investigator to do a real investigation. By contrast, Lerner's sipping her pinot noir tonight out of a wine glass with "I Love the Fifth" etched around the base, and various administration flunkies are cruising around news shows throwing off lines like, "That's, like, two years ago, man."

(Oh wait, that last line was regarding Benghazi...sorry, so many Republican scandals I tend to get them all mixed up!)

[PackMan97]

One of the worst aspects of this entire and unfortunate situation--loathe UNC though I do on a superficial level, I think we all want all student-athletes to have a better academic experience and result than this--is that a common (and perhaps accurate) response to this nationwide has been, "Yeah, but this happens almost everywhere."

I think way to answer "does this happen almost everywhere" is to examine the graduation rate for students vs student athletes and the graduation rate for minority students vs minority student athletes as well as the graduation rate of student athletes vs peer institutions.

Needless to say, almost all schools do not have near 100% graduation rates and routinely have academic casualties (even Duke :P). To claim something like this is happening at NC State is laughable, we have routinely had low graduation rates for our school and our student athletes. Usually bottom third for the ACC, IIRC. If NC State is cheating to keep kids eligible and graduating, we are doing it wrong.

[JasonEvans]

Needless to say, almost all schools do not have near 100% graduation rates and routinely have academic casualties (even Duke :P). To claim something like this is happening at NC State is laughable, we have routinely had low graduation rates for our school and our student athletes. Usually bottom third for the ACC, IIRC. If NC State is cheating to keep kids eligible and graduating, we are doing it wrong.

This is quite true and sorta interesting to think about. Someone mentioned this upthread, I believe, but the fact that Duke, NC State, and other schools lose kids to academics every now and then (rarely at some schools, with some regularity at others) is proof that not everyone is doing it.

-Jason "I hope all the Pack Pride folks are feeling really good right about now" Evans

[rasputin]

http://i60.tinypic.com/33e61qo.jpg

Where's the x mark through 1924?

[budwom]

This is quite true and sorta interesting to think about. Someone mentioned this upthread, I believe, but the fact that Duke, NC State, and other schools lose kids to academics every now and then (rarely at some schools, with some regularity at others) is proof that not everyone is doing it.

-Jason "I hope all the Pack Pride folks are feeling really good right about now" Evans

Precisely! we've lost a number of guys over the years as academic or cheating casualties...our best RB on the football last year, Jela Duncan, was suspended....QB Asack got ousted twice.
Many people have mentioned over the years that no one at unc ever seemed to get disciplined (by unc) for anything. Being an academic casualty over there was an impossibility.

[DukieInKansas]

Where's the x mark through 1924?

If you knead to know, Helms only considered the dough - no scholarship necessary. ;)

[fuse]

Anyone who thinks the punishment will fit the crime hasn't been paying attention the past 4 years.

I have zero confidence the NCAA will do anything meaningful.

We like to give UK a hard time- at least Kentucky forced Sutton to resign during the 1988/89 scandal.

Given the unprecedented scope and scale, it's hard to fathom what is actually reasonable and appropriate.

[hurleyfor3]

UNC does not need to be punished because UNC has already punished themselves and didn't you read the report it said Roy wasn't involved and anyway UNC never did anything wrong in the first place because UNC never does anything wrong otherwise they wouldn't be UNC and everybody does it and we have already moved on from this and Jason Williams majored in sociology and Kentucky tried to pay Rex Chapman once and Dean Smith Carolina Way Four Corners Franklin Street Michael Jordan LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU

[MarkD83]

In one of these threads there was a link to a SC paper's article that mentioned the ACC tacked on an extra punishment to an NCAA punishment. Could the ACC just enforce their own penalty?

What do I mean by this? Although we as fans might not like this, the ACC presidents could get together and just refuse to play UNC for a year. Yes UNC gets all of the wins by forfeit, but a clear message is that the ACC does not tolerate cheaters.

[Duvall]

In one of these threads there was a link to a SC paper's article that mentioned the ACC tacked on an extra punishment to an NCAA punishment. Could the ACC just enforce their own penalty?

What do I mean by this? Although we as fans might not like this, the ACC presidents could get together and just refuse to play UNC for a year. Yes UNC gets all of the wins by forfeit, but a clear message is that the ACC does not tolerate cheaters.

Can we just accept that any punishment that would more than mildly inconvenience Nike and ESPN is a non-starter? Can't upset the governing bodies of college sports like that.

[fidel]

Make unc embroider HELMS - IN VERY LARGE LETTERS - across the 2005 banner

Holy crap. Suddenly the Helms trophy becomes the one you can't make fun of. Kind of.

[DU82]

http://www.bebasket.fr/ul/2013/03/may_cox_legrand-424x300.jpg

Eurobasket says Sean weighs 266 pounds. I beg to differ. Dude looks like he's pushing 280, at least.



How much does the scale say when he puts both feet on it?

[JasonEvans]

In one of these threads there was a link to a SC paper's article that mentioned the ACC tacked on an extra punishment to an NCAA punishment. Could the ACC just enforce their own penalty?

You should really take this idea to the ACC's Commissioner. He's the person who would decide to take action against Carolina. His name is John Swofford and he is a former UNC football player who was athletic director at Carolina when this ugliness first started. I am certain he will be interested in your ideas...

...OR NOT!!!

-Jason "The ACC won't do anything, but I have to think that the NCAA will have something to say in a week or two when they have really examined the report" Evans

[throatybeard]

I'd also like to see UNC re-enroll the 3,100 students at no cost to the students, and provide them with the educational opportunity they were to have been afforded when they originally matriculated.

Bingo. And if they won't, then I think they have a class action suit, although IANAL.

I'm pessimistic, though. It's Carolina. They'll get off with a mildly smarting wrist slap. The rules don't apply to some schools.

[throatybeard]

http://i60.tinypic.com/33e61qo.jpg

I object to the above image.

1924 skates.

[dukebluelemur]

How much does the scale say when he puts both feet on it?
"what do you mean the scale measures in kilograms?"

[cowetarock]

It is possible UNC will never be subjected to punishment commensurate with her notorious activities over so many years. It seems to me it would be fitting to create a way for anyone so inclined to add to and preserve for all time the shame that UNC so rightly deserves. I suggest that henceforth the Dean Dome or any future home of UNC basketball be referred to as The Kanebrake to both honor Dan for his mighty efforts in putting a stop to those activities and to serve as a frequent reminder that The Carolina Way was actually a fraud.

[wilko]

Their punishment will be to wear an ugly shade of blue... Oh wait - it must be self imposed they already DO that.

[Kfanarmy]

Why are we only concentrating on the 2005 championship? Isn't 2009 and for that matter 1993 included during the scandal? Didn't Hansborough himself take Swahili during his time at Chapel Hill? Just wondering why were only worried about 2005, I guess because of McCants and his admission that he didn't write some of his own work.

As I recall, almost the entire team was taking courses from AFAM when TH was there...but of course the coach had recommended they steer away from that deparment....BS!

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

So by that measure all three need to be taken down in shame. In another thread I brought up how this might hurt the rivalry and perhaps Duke and the ACC. But after reading more of the facts and reading what everyone has to say. I don't care any more the outright cheating and academic fraud is so overwhelming that I dont care about UNC anymore. As one poster said in the other thread "They are Dead to me" Give them the Death penalty and make them restructure everything from academics to athletics. Roll some heads fire coaches and advisors and whoever else could have stopped this if they had just opened thier eyes. This is the NCAA's chance to lay the smack down and back up thier claim of "Student Atheletes" If the vast majority of student athletes are going to go pro in something other than thier sport, the least schools can do is offer actual real classes to help them get there. Its shameful and it will forever tarnish how I feel about UNC and any of thier fans who continue to defend or tolerate such things. I will respect a fan that admits to the wrong doing and still sticks with the school and the team through whatever happens. But the fools who make excuses and defend or deflect blame can all well... you know GTHC!!!

[MarkD83]

I was thinking about this when I was reading the "W report" thread. With the extent of this issue and Emmert's comments would it be too radical to make UNC move to a lower division for a few years.

[devildeac]

I was thinking about this when I was reading the "W report" thread. With the extent of this issue and Emmert's comments would it be too radical to make UNC move to a lower division for a few years.

They've already gone to hell. How much lower do you want them to move?

44234424

[The Gordog]

There was a movie some time back in the stone ages - Heavy Metal I think - when somebody said, "Hangin's too good for 'em! Burnin's too good for em! They should be torn up into little pieces and buried alive!" That's how I feel.

1. Loss of titles from 1993 on - all sports that are implicated.
2. Return all monies form bowl games 1993 on.
3. Void the wins in the record book for any game, any sport where a player took one of the sham classes.
4. Post-season ban - all sports that are implicated - duration equal to the number of years when they had inelligible players.
5. Lose 25% of their scholarships - duration equal to the number of years when they had inelligible players.

[Bluegrassdevil1]

EXCLAIMER: This is SIMPLY a hypothetical question.

JUST a question of a purely suppositional nature:

As a Duke fan, would anyone willingly accept UNC receiving the maximum amount of punishment (banners, wins, monies, etc), but in exchange, Duke's men's basketball program would have to forfeit the 1998-1999 season (Maggette, Myron Piggie), and the 2009-2010 season (Thomas' jewelry)?

To be honest, I have no idea whatsoever how the basketball program did not receive substantial punishment regarding Maggette's amateur status, and the Thomas issue is something that will always be quite difficult for me to reconcile.

On a side note, living in the heart of Kentucky during the 80's, the Sutton scandal was intense. IN. TENSE.

A great many people viewed the events of the Sutton era as the end of the UK Roman Empire, until the day Rick Pitino walked to the podium, and each and every UK fan I know said the following, "oh, he's coming here? Yeah, I will totally take the punishment in exchange for having Pitino."

And from 1989 to 1991, things were tough for the UK program, but that short window was blown out the door by the 1992 season's miracle end, the 1993 Final Four, 1995 Final Four, 1996 title, and the 1997 runner-up.

Three or four years of struggle were nothing for UK fans when they took part in five elite eight appearances, four Final Fours, two title games, and a title team on the backs of one of the greatest teams in college basketball history.

Once a program reaches a certain plateau (UK basketball, USC football, Penn State football, Miami football, Michigan basketball, et al.), and is not a minor collective hitting a short spike (SMU football, Cal basketball, Georgia basketball, BC basketball, Northwestern basketball), I do not think there is anyway to punish a power program in the long term.

[Duvall]

EXCLAIMER: This is SIMPLY a hypothetical question.

JUST a question of a purely suppositional nature:

As a Duke fan, would anyone willingly accept UNC receiving the maximum amount of punishment (banners, wins, monies, etc), but in exchange, Duke's men's basketball program would have to forfeit the 1998-1999 season (Maggette, Myron Piggie), and the 2009-2010 season (Thomas' jewelry)?

What?

[_Gary]

What?

Double WHAT?!!!

[Troublemaker]

What?


Double WHAT?!!!

I see that post caused you guys to disclaim in surprise.

[nocilla]

EXCLAIMER: This is SIMPLY a hypothetical question.

JUST a question of a purely suppositional nature:

As a Duke fan, would anyone willingly accept UNC receiving the maximum amount of punishment (banners, wins, monies, etc), but in exchange, Duke's men's basketball program would have to forfeit the 1998-1999 season (Maggette, Myron Piggie), and the 2009-2010 season (Thomas' jewelry)?


Myron Piggie gave out money to several players. None of the other programs had to forfeit games either because it was deemed inconsequential to the respective universities. As for Lance Thomas, there is no NCAA rule against buying jewelry. And comparing those incidents to the 18 years of academic fraud at UNC or the numerous violations of Sutton at UK is laughable at best.

[Bluedog]

EXCLAIMER: This is SIMPLY a hypothetical question.

JUST a question of a purely suppositional nature:

As a Duke fan, would anyone willingly accept UNC receiving the maximum amount of punishment (banners, wins, monies, etc), but in exchange, Duke's men's basketball program would have to forfeit the 1998-1999 season (Maggette, Myron Piggie), and the 2009-2010 season (Thomas' jewelry)?

Yes, Maggette (one person) receiving $2,000 in high school from somebody not affiliated with Duke and not influencing his college decision, and without Duke's knowledge, and Lance Thomas getting a whopping 10 full days to pay a jewelry invoice at a random jewelry store in NYC are both more than equivalent to UNC as an institution purposefully orchestrating academic fraud for 3,000+ students for the purpose of keeping athletes eligible by offering non-existent courses.

[hurleyfor3]

They're not going to be banished to the moon for a thousand years. What Penn State got feels like an upper limit. This turned out to be two years' probation, whiting out a decade of records and forfeiting a year of revenue. I think that's roughly what we're talking here, maybe a little less, especially on the monetary side.

[JasonEvans]

They're not going to be banished to the moon for a thousand years. What Penn State got feels like an upper limit. This turned out to be two years' probation, whiting out a decade of records and forfeiting a year of revenue. I think that's roughly what we're talking here, maybe a little less, especially on the monetary side.

I think Hurley has it right -- a couple years of a postseason ban in several sports, some scholarship reductions as well, and vacating a whole mess of a lot of wins. That feels pretty accurate. The fact that Penn State football has not descended into irrelevance under its punishment will give the NCAA room to bring harsh penalties down on Carolina without fear of truly wiping out a very important program to the ACC/NCAA.

I keep on hearing folks say UNC should get a postseason ban for every year they committed this fraud. Folks, the NCAA just does not hand out 8, 10, 15, 18 year long postseason bans. Not gonna happen. Lets keep it realistic...

-Jason "props to everyone for not feeding the troll -- the mods have dealt with the situation upthread" Evans

[OldPhiKap]

NCAA extended Todd Gurley's suspension to 4 games, for taking about $5k in improper benefits.

How much did UNC make improperly?

[sagegrouse]

EXCLAIMER: This is SIMPLY a hypothetical question.

JUST a question of a purely suppositional nature:

As a Duke fan, would anyone willingly accept UNC receiving the maximum amount of punishment (banners, wins, monies, etc), but in exchange, Duke's men's basketball program would have to forfeit the 1998-1999 season (Maggette, Myron Piggie), and the 2009-2010 season (Thomas' jewelry)?

To be honest, I have no idea whatsoever how the basketball program did not receive substantial punishment regarding Maggette's amateur status, and the Thomas issue is something that will always be quite difficult for me to reconcile.

On a side note, living in the heart of Kentucky during the 80's, the Sutton scandal was intense. IN. TENSE.

.

Kentucky's problem in the Sutton episode is that there was a smoking gun: an envelope of cash from a Kentucky assistant addressed to the father of a recruit broke open in an Emery Air Freight office in California.

UNC has lots of problems and lots of evidence against it, but the one that breaks the "wall of silence" between the academic counselors and the coaches was the briefing slide.

Maggette received some expense money well before he came to or committed to Duke from his AAU coach. When it came to light, Duke notified the NCAA and there was an investigation that cleared Duke and issued no penalties.

Lance Thomas bought (or took possession of) some jewelry with his own money, reportedly gifts from family members. This is a Duke site, so we will presume there was some sort of college fund that was never used and, in fact, legally became his money at age 18. Lance came from a middle-class family. LT was hardly a top NBA prospect, and no agent would have been looking for an excuse to slip him some moolah. Later there was a legal dispute in which the NYC jeweler claimed than LT owed him a bunch of money, and, as always, if there is legal action, the amount at stake is large enough to make it appear worthwhile. The suit was settled, and there was a typical confidentiality clause. The legal eagles can comment, but usually the party receiving the money requests it, so that there is no public record of a settlement for later defendants (victims?) to use in negotiations. Lance was unable to share any information with the NCAA, and Duke has no useful information on this private incident. The case was closed. Do you believe that Lance Thomas was given a large sum of money by a booster or agent? Why? But we can all agree that the jewelry he bought was really ugly.

And, by the way, on your "hypothetical question," heresy is never hypothetical.

Kindly, Sage

[Wander]

At every single UNC home game for the next 20 years, they have to re-enact the Austin Rivers shot during every TV timeout.

[bbosbbos]

EXCLAIMER: This is SIMPLY a hypothetical question.

As a Duke fan, would anyone willingly accept UNC receiving the maximum amount of punishment (banners, wins, monies, etc), but in exchange, Duke's men's basketball program would have to forfeit the 1998-1999 season (Maggette, Myron Piggie), and the 2009-2010 season (Thomas' jewelry)?


I do not get you. If two Dukies got caught and banners will be removed, then the fair comparison should be Holes University has to be closed, all employees will be fired, chairs go to jail due to the >3k students cheated with faculty's help. It is hard to compare an ant to a whale.

[CameronBlue]

At every single UNC home game for the next 20 years, they have to re-enact the Austin Rivers shot during every TV timeout.

Or the Henderson elbow, I'm good with either.

[dukebluesincebirth]

At every single UNC home game for the next 20 years, they have to re-enact the Austin Rivers shot during every TV timeout.

They have to officially change their school color from diminished blue/white to violet/yellow. Diminished blue is now associated with cheating.

No more wine or cheese served during bball games. It clouds their judgment of what's right and wrong.

They must bow to Coach K every time he enters the Dean (Cheat) Dome as part of acknowledging a great coach with integrity.

I know you guys have more....come on, don't hold back....

[CameronBlue]

They have to officially change their school color from diminished blue/white to violet/yellow. Diminished blue is now associated with cheating.

No more wine or cheese served during bball games. It clouds their judgment of what's right and wrong.

They must bow to Coach K every time he enters the Dean (Cheat) Dome as part of acknowledging a great coach with integrity.

I know you guys have more....come on, don't hold back....

They have to put up yellow crime scene tape around the Dean Dome in between basketball games...come to think of it, Halloween is just a few days away......

[DukieInKansas]

They have to officially change their school color from diminished blue/white to violet/yellow. Diminished blue is now associated with cheating.

No more wine or cheese served during bball games. It clouds their judgment of what's right and wrong.

They must bow to Coach K every time he enters the Dean (Cheat) Dome as part of acknowledging a great coach with integrity.

I know you guys have more....come on, don't hold back....

And DBR members get to have polls to select the site of the unc team dinners - doing this for 18 years sounds about right.

[OldPhiKap]

TAR!

........FEATHERS!

TAR!

.......FEATHERS!


For the coaches, not the players.

[uh_no]

TAR!

........FEATHERS!

TAR!

.......FEATHERS!


For the coaches, not the players.

this needs to happen at the duke unc game in a few weeks.

[brevity]

They must bow to Coach K every time he enters the Dean (Cheat) Dome as part of acknowledging a great coach with integrity.

Don't you mean the Coach K Dome?

[hurleyfor3]

Don't you mean the Coach K Dome?

3 Rivers Stadium. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X1ewxVwhug)

[wilson]

3 Rivers Stadium. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X1ewxVwhug)Shouldn't that be Rivers 3 Stadium?

[cspan37421]

Although I voted for "some combination", perhaps the best thing is what is happening to them now ... an inexorable death-dance that is slowly but surely destroying their credibility both as an academic institution and as a place where any top athlete would want to play collegiately. Think about it - which is more desirable from a Duke fan perspective - that they force a few more coaches and admins to fall on their swords and clean house, and immediately start righting their ship, or for their ethical necrosis to fester and continue to destroy them in the drip, drip of information that is finally wrested from their secret vaults by Pack Pride, investigators, and insiders who have turned?

IMO a case can be made that the most devastating punishment for them is to cement their reputations as world-class hypocrites who would deny what is already found and admitted if that meant keeping now-meaningless banners up. For them to become a laughingstock.

Right now they seem to be digging their own grave, and they don't even know it.

[UrinalCake]

^ I agree cspan, which is why even though everyone is calling for Roy's head, I actually don't want him to be fired. Let him keep his job and have to answer questions about the scandal at every press conference and after every game. Better yet, let him walk into the home of a prized recruit and have to answer questions from the kid's parents. You don't want to talk about that crap in the past? Okay fine, you can show yourself to the door.

I want Roy to have to deal with reduced scholarships and postseason bans. Let him play with a roster of three-star players who actually have to go to class, and expose his lack of coaching ability. It won't take long before he quits on his own.

Conversely, firing him would be a better fate than he deserves. He would get a big buyout package and could continue to claim he never did anything wrong, allowing him to land a job in broadcasting or maybe even coaching somewhere else. The university would be able to sever all ties to the scandal, bring in someone with some dignity, and get back on track the way UCONN did. So yeah, I say keep Roy and let us enjoy the bloodletting.

[hurleyfor3]

Conversely, firing him would be a better fate than he deserves. He would get a big buyout package and could continue to claim he never did anything wrong, allowing him to land a job in broadcasting or maybe even coaching somewhere else. The university would be able to sever all ties to the scandal, bring in someone with some dignity, and get back on track the way UCONN did. So yeah, I say keep Roy and let us enjoy the bloodletting.

I've said this before, but Roy has never won a national championship with legitimate student-athletes. And now the controls at unc will be tighter than ever. Well, we hope they will be. So keep Roy around.

[Neals384]

Imagine an athlete who has no issues with their grades, if they are taking 5 classes a semester, that is probably a 40-60 hour work load and is going to eat into practice time, time in the gym, time in the film room. Take 10-15 hours off their workload and how much of that time gets spent in the gym, the weight room, or the film room to give those athletes a competitive advantage?

No, no, no. That's 10-15 more hours per week to drive their rental cars and hang with shady characters.:p

[Neals384]

This is one of my larger questions....what happens to the sham degrees that were awarded?

What degrees? Did any of them actually graduate?

[cspan37421]

Better yet, let him walk into the home of a prized recruit and have to answer questions from the kid's parents. You don't want to talk about that crap in the past? Okay fine, you can show yourself to the door.

I say keep Roy and let us enjoy the bloodletting.

Excellent points. Who wouldn't want to be recruiting against Roy Williams and UNC right now? With all that is hanging over the program?

[cspan37421]

I've said this before, but Roy has never won a national championship with legitimate student-athletes. And now the controls at unc will be tighter than ever. Well, we hope they will be. So keep Roy around.

Love your sig picture of the crossed-out UNC banners. Reminds me of Family Feud!

[Rickshaw]

I know things don't work this way, but I think the NCAA should take the 2005 NC banner just to get uncs attention.
Maybe that would bring them a little closer to reality.

[BD80]

I know things don't work this way, but I think the NCAA should take the 2005 NC banner just to get uncs attention.
Maybe that would bring them a little closer to reality.

But Helms could bake up a nonce in a trice to replace it

[DukieInKansas]

Everytime I read the title of this thread, a little voice in my head, in British accent, says "Off with their heads!" and makes me chuckle.

[OldPhiKap]

Everytime I read the title of this thread, a little voice in my head, in British accent, says "Off with their heads!" and makes me chuckle.

I picture the end of Dr. Strangelove. (Including Roy, Bubba, and Carol in the bunker as the big ones drop)

[DukieInBrasil]

I've said this before, but Roy has never won a national championship with legitimate student-athletes. And now the controls at unc will be tighter than ever. Well, we hope they will be. So keep Roy around.

i love the idea of forcing UNC to keep the banners up and writing in BIG red letters the word "VACATED" on their most recent championships. However, per your image, why would the 1924 banner get X'd out?

[OldPhiKap]

i love the idea of forcing UNC to keep the banners up and writing in BIG red letters the word "VACATED" on their most recent championships. However, per your image, why would the 1924 banner get X'd out?

The 1924 Helms Trophy was not given as the result of a play-off; it was given several years later when the Helms Baking Company decided to name who it thought the champions were in several past years.

(I think that's right)

[oldnavy]

Where's that "I'm Happy" video with all the coaches dancing around...

I really want to see that again...

[Saratoga2]

Schools with high academic standards must choose recruits from the smaller pool of young folks capable of completing the course requirements. I can see that these athletes, once enrolled, should get special help and tutoring. They face a much tougher schedule than the typical student, what with the practice and travel. It is easy to name several ACC schools who definitely have higher standards. I would think Duke ranks right up there as does Notre Dame, UVA, Wake and others.

Schools like UNC however, knowingly brought athletes in who were questionable students and then set up phony classes with the specific goal of winning more games and championships. That tended to penalize the schools who played by the rules. It is only fair to make the penalty fit the crime and strip the institution of wins and championships. I would also think a reduction in the number of scholarships over a 5 year period would be appropriate. The leaders at UNC should feel shame for such an egregius breach of the code of conduct.

[BigWayne]

This was posted in another thread but it really belongs in this one. (http://www.aseaofblue.com/2014/10/29/7088551/a-terrifying-proposal) Basically it is analysis of the Macalester president's call for revocation of accreditation. I don't think this is warranted, but the real threat of it needs to be put in the face of UNC graduates and students. There needs to be pressure brought by the students that want to graduate on time that UNC needs to fess up and clean house. As the student forum yesterday exposed, there are other departments besides AFAM involved and they are so far not getting punished or cleaned up.

[sagegrouse]

The 1924 Helms Trophy was not given as the result of a play-off; it was given several years later when the Helms Baking Company decided to name who it thought the champions were in several past years.

(I think that's right)

Oh, it's totally bogus as a national championship. The 1924 White Phantoms (a name shamefully harkening to the KKK) were undefeated. But Southern basketball was far less developed than hoops in other parts of the country. The Phantoms did not play anyone from north of the Mason-Dixon line or from the Midwest. But, of course, they did beat Mercer!

[BD80]

Oh, it's totally bogus as a national championship. The 1924 White Phantoms (a name shamefully harkening to the KKK) were undefeated. But Southern basketball was far less developed than hoops in other parts of the country. The Phantoms did not play anyone from north of the Mason-Dixon line or from the Midwest. But, of course, they did beat Mercer!

OMG. I thought you were kidding around.

unc's basketball team was actually called The White Phantoms until 1950!!!!!

The '24 team was led by Monk McDonald, a poor man's Dick Groat (played QB, PG and SS)

[Newton_14]

OMG. I thought you were kidding around.

unc's basketball team was actually called The White Phantoms until 1950!!!!!

The '24 team was led by Monk McDonald, a poor man's Dick Groat (played QB, PG and SS)

No kidding was the Sage one doing. Nor OPK. The White Phantoms of 24' won all of their I believe 8 Regular Season games, but since they did not play anybody, they were not invited to the National Tournament which actually was played on the court and won by Butler. In I believe 1940, the Helms Bakery decided to create a new championship which would be named by them each season. They went back in time however, and awarded their "Championship" to teams in the past. They awarded the White Phantoms their 1924 loaf.

Strangely unc did not recognize this or promote it until the year 2001, shortly after Duke won National Title number 3, tying unc. (Though in fairness, we did not know at the time that the one in 93 should not have counted either so Duke was actually up 3-2 at that point):cool:

[cspan37421]

No kidding was the Sage one doing. Nor OPK. The White Phantoms of 24' won all of their I believe 8 Regular Season games, but since they did not play anybody, they were not invited to the National Tournament which actually was played on the court and won by Butler.


8 regular season games? I counted 22, ans as far as not playing anyone, they defeated Duke twice, Maryland, Virginia, Wake Forest twice, NC State twice, ... and some team called Mercer. Later in the SoCon tourney Kentucky, Vandy, Bama, and MS State.

I'd like to dance on their grave as much as anyone. But by the looks of it they certainly took care of who they could play (in their region - not sure about how much cross-country play was back then, esp. for post-season). And a lot more than 8 games. I don't mind that they claim such a title ... but they should definitely identify it for what it is - not an NCAA title ... but you wouldn't know that from the banner.

[cspan37421]

Where's that "I'm Happy" video with all the coaches dancing around...

I really want to see that again...

overdub "crappy" to keep it current ....

[Newton_14]

8 regular season games? I counted 22, ans as far as not playing anyone, they defeated Duke twice, Maryland, Virginia, Wake Forest twice, NC State twice, ... and some team called Mercer. Later in the SoCon tourney Kentucky, Vandy, Bama, and MS State.

I'd like to dance on their grave as much as anyone. But by the looks of it they certainly took care of who they could play (in their region - not sure about how much cross-country play was back then, esp. for post-season). And a lot more than 8 games. I don't mind that they claim such a title ... but they should definitely identify it for what it is - not an NCAA title ... but you wouldn't know that from the banner.

Ok, my memory was terrible here. There was a long thread on this a couple of years ago and I totally misremembered key items. Mea Culpa. I remember the thing about Southern Hoops being considered weak in that era, and thought it was stated in that thread there was a National Tourney in 24 won by Butler. All I could find on Google though was an AAU National Tourney that was won by Butler. So I had Butler right and the Helms thingie starting in 1940, but Butler played teams that did not appear to be College teams.

At any rate, it's still not something that should be listed or counted as a National Championship.

Also did not realize the SoCon went back that far either, so thanks for that.

Edit: Per Wiki they were 26-0
Edit II: The Helms Foundation named a national champion from 1901 to 1982, with its selections from 1901-1941 being awarded retroactively.

[cspan37421]

Newton_14 - no problem, we all have frain barts ;-) from time to time.

When I was looking that stuff up I too noticed the AAU title belonging to Butler, and IIRC they beat a club team from Kansas City, another midwest team. They even had 7 losses that year, out of only 18 games. "Liberated" from a BU forum, the claim is that the following is from their media guide:

"1923-24
Record: 11-7
AAU NATIONAL CHAMPIONS
Coach: Harlan O. Page
Captain: Hugh Middlesworth
L Iowa 23-26
L Franklin 19-35
L DePauw 21-36
W Chicago 26-17
L DePauw 17-23
W Hanover 32-24
L Illinois 27-28
L Wabash 23-28
W Wabash 35-17
W Hanover 38-21
L Wisconsin 23-25
W Marquette 24-18
W Haskell Inst. 51-18
W Franklin 36-22
W Schooley-Woodstock# 34-29
W Hillyards# 35-29
W Kansas St. Teachers# 40-21
W K. C. Athletic Club# 30-26
#AAU National Tournament."

A couple things to note - they too appeared to play only regionally, so I question whether a significant number of collegiate teams traveled nationally. A corollary to that is, how would we know basketball was better in the midwest than the south? Which leads to the matter: was "national champion" an oxymoronic phrase? Just looking at the two claimant's schedules, Butler and UNC, I fail to see any national breadth of play.

Of all places there is a UK-related page that has some interesting details of the Helms foundation championships:

http://www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/helms.html

Although I reject the conclusion at the top (primarily based on the "national" claim as hinted above, but also problems with awarding retroactive titles - problems both general to the idea and specific to the execution), the detail provided, if true, suggests there was considerably more to the Helms Foundation than the whims of the owner of a bread bakery. Its role emerged in an era when there were competing ideas for determining a national champion in basketball.

Looking at Butler's record that year and UNC's, I can certainly see how they'd give the nod to the latter over the former. But "national" champion - probably not the right title for that. It seems to me more like finishing the season ranked #1 (which we've done at least once without winning the NCAAT). It's really not even that if it was a committee of one, as suggested for retroactive titles. Probably the most appropriate banner UNC could hang to honor that season is one that touted a perfect record ... and no more. And it should not look like the NCAA banners, because it appears to me that the notion of a "national" champion determined through competitive play was really anachronistic.

[Henderson]

Regarding standards, here's a good video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODFldtSThyM). It's K and Bobby Knight being interviewed together. The whole thing is good, but Coach Knight's comments on cheating in college basketball are appropriate to this thread and begin at about 2:30.

[bedeviled]

Quote imported from the "UNC Athletic Scandal" details thread so that people searching for new scandal developments don't have to sift through the speculative punishment discussion (I shoulda done this with the post I just posted there)


let them eat cake for 5 years, and absolutely make them start from scratch all over again...
I support giving UNC the "death penalty" because I consider it to be an appropriate response.
(While I honestly can't shake my disgust at UNC for their scandalous activity, I like to think that hatred is somewhat balanced out in that I actually attend a fair few UNC games and am not an ABC-er if the ACC is taking on another conference)

However, the going consensus seems to be that the NCAA will never enact the death penalty again. It seems like everyone takes it as an established 'given,' but I don't understand why. What are the reasonings behind this belief? (Power or lack of power dynamics between NCAA and member universities? Legality? Harshness? Public support? etc)

[sagegrouse]

Quote imported from the "UNC Athletic Scandal" details thread so that people searching for new scandal developments don't have to sift through the speculative punishment discussion (I shoulda done this with the post I just posted there)


I support giving UNC the "death penalty" because I consider it to be an appropriate response.
(While I honestly can't shake my disgust at UNC for their scandalous activity, I like to think that hatred is somewhat balanced out in that I actually attend a fair few UNC games and am not an ABC-er if the ACC is taking on another conference)

However, the going consensus seems to be that the NCAA will never enact the death penalty again. It seems like everyone takes it as an established 'given,' but I don't understand why. What are the reasonings behind this belief? (Power or lack of power dynamics between NCAA and member universities? Legality? Harshness? Public support? etc)

Good question. SMU was given the death penalty for football to cover only the 1987 season; the best players transferred and the Mustangs never recovered. The "death penalty" appears to result not so much in a hiatus but in the near-permanent abolition of a college sports program.

[bedeviled]

The "death penalty" appears to result not so much in a hiatus but in the near-permanent abolition of a college sports program
"Appears" is the operative word. Maybe it's true, but maybe we need to look past appearances. Does a 1 year suspension really cause decades of poor performance?

Your understanding is the impression I've gotten, too. It's an anecdotal argument (which excludes all but the single football data point **) with which I disagree. Granted, I like outdoors more than reading and I didn't live through the scandal, so please correct me wherever I err.

It's not an abolition...unless you think that Duke, too, has not had a football program or ability to compete fairly. (I'm not trying to pick apart your statement. I know you didn't mean full abolition. I'm just taking this moment to start readers comparing SMU with other schools so they realize that SMU didn't suffer some isolated cataclysm, which is the way people talk about the notorious and frightful "death penalty")
Since 1989, SMU has been to 4 bowls (2009, 2010, 2011, 2012), with 6 seasons finishing 0.500 or better.
In that time, Duke has been to 5 bowls (1989, 1995, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015) with 5 seasons finishing 0.500 or better.
Note that SMU's recovery came prior to Duke's! haha

"Having a bad team for 25 years is not fair"
There is not something inherently unfair about having a bad team - their record does NOT necessitate that something foul must be lingering in the air from decades ago. I'll agree that SMU has been one of the basement dwellers in the FBS for 25 years. But, they have been allowed to compete fairly just like everybody else, and they are not the only ones in the basement. Do we look at our bad records and think the NCAA or football are treating Duke unfairly? No. With the playing field fair, it's up to the individual school to perform. SMU coaches and players simply haven't performed well enough to lift the program back up more quickly. That's on them. The first 5 seasons after reinstatement, SMU had a better record than teams like Oregon State and Northwestern, who didn't languish as long as SMU did. There are plenty of schools that have had a string of bad years that did not turn into 25.

"Sure, sure. BUT, we're not talking 5 or 10 years here, we're talking 20-25 years. Surely something's not right about that!"
Ah, but we're Duke. We know all about decades of losing records. Again, we don't think there is something lingering behind the scenes that is keeping us down. SMU is not somehow entitled to NOT be a basement dweller. They can suffer the same fates as other teams. Their incompetence does not mean that the death penalty is still swinging its scythe.




Records for 25 Years Following SMU's Death Penalty



Won
Loss
Seasons 0.500 or better


SMU
94
194
6


Army
96
191
6


Duke
82
207
3


Kent St
79
207
3


NM State
79
211
3


Temple
80
206
4


Vanderbilt
95
194
3



Even a string of 25 bad years doesn't mean that there must be something foul afoot. As a Duke fan, I have a hunch that any stretch of bad seasons from SMU's record could be matched by a similar stretch for Duke (and other teams, especially if we consider non-FBS teams like Prairie View, Columbia, Oberlin, etc!!). Do we say that something must be faulty with the system because Duke has not prospered more? Or, is it somehow okay for other teams (like Duke) to fall on bad times but the NCAA should never allow teams like SMU to do so?

"Okay, having bad teams if fine. What's NOT fair is that the NCAA caused SMU to have those bad teams"
My first response to this is, "Nope, SMU caused those bad times." Suspension is what happens when people cheat. You cheat on classwork, you get suspended from school. You cheat at the cash register, you get fired from your job. You cheat at your profession, you lose your license. You cheat society, you get removed from society for awhile. You cheat at poker, you get shot :cool:. When you no longer abide by the rules of the game, you are no longer welcome to participate in the game. The NCAA didn't cause those bad times, SMU's own actions did, and the NCAA responded appropriately. Being an NCAA member is a priviledge. SMU didn't have to field a football team if they didn't want to play by the rules. There are schools that are doing fine without football programs (eg BU, VCU, Texas-Arlington, GW, George Mason, Wichita State, a bunch of UC schools).

Anyway, is there evidence that the death penalty hiatus is the real cause of SMU's poor performance? Couldn't they just be inept? I mean, Duke has some pretty smart people, and we weren't able to figure things out :D Yet, we realize that Duke's short-comings are not due to factors external to ourselves. Why does everyone assume that SMU's bad seasons are due to the penalty? I propose that the hiatus CANNOT be blamed for the bad run of seasons. SMU still had an infrastructure of personnel, facilities, and know-how in place, so they weren't starting from scratch after their vacation. For comparison's sake, let's take a look at FBS teams that have started from scratch - no fan base, no illustrious history, no facilities, no coaches/administrators, no recruitment connections, etc.

After reinstatement, it took SMU twenty-one seasons to get to a bowl!! Their first season finishing 0.500+ was the 9th season post-penalty (and not again until the 18th season). Both those marks are worse than the schools with infinite hiatus prior to building their programs ;). (Disregarding win%, one may point out that times have changed WRT the number of offered bowls. That's true; thanks for more evidence that we shouldn't rely on one school's anecdotal history from 25 years ago to determine that suspension is a program killer that can never be used again)



Team

First Played
Joined FBS
1st FBS Season finishing 0.500+

1st FBS Season with Bowl
Notes


UAB
1991
1996
5th (10th overall season)
9th (14th overall season)



South Florida
1997
2001
1st (5th overall season)
5th (9th overall season)



Florida Atlantic
2001
2004
1st (4th overall season)
4th (7th overall season)



FIU
2002
2005
6th (9th overall season)
6th (9th overall season)



South Alabama
2009
2012
2nd (5th overall season)
3rd (6th overall season)
2nd FBS season ineligible for bowl d/t FBS transition rules


Old Dominion
2009
2013
2nd (6th overall season)

2nd FBS season ineligible for bowl d/t FBS transition rules


Georgia State
2010
2013

3rd (6th overall season)
3rd FBS season finished sub 0.500 b/c of bowl loss


UTSA
2011
2012
1st (2nd overall season)

1st & 2nd FBS seasons - ineligible for bowl d/t transition rules


Charlotte
2013
2015






If schools can start from scratch and jump into the winning column, a single year out of the game is NOT the reason for SMU's years and years of poor performance.

Okay, the problem wasn't the hiatus, itself. But, maybe the problem was the public perception that the evil NCAA created by enacting the death penalty?
I do NOT consider the negative perception of SMU to be the fault of the NCAA. SMU was labeled as cheaters because they cheated, not because they sat out a year. Had they been spared from suspension but stripped of all banners/winnings, head coach, post-season, and multiple scholarships, they'd still be labeled as cheaters. Taking suspension out of the list of possible penalties does not preclude negative perception of cheaters. Moreover, I don't think public perception is a stable or predictable enough factor upon which to base penalty structures. Case in point: There was lots of cultural backlash against Penn State, yet they are already bowling again and have plenty of fan and booster support.

Penn State was able to use their established fan base, resources, and past glory to reinvigorate their program and rebuild their image.
The new FBS programs were able to invigorate and build from scratch.
SMU administrators, consituents, and boosters failed (including negotiating conference realignment). That's on them, not the NCAA. It doesn't make sense to keep blaming the 'death penalty.'

In Brief:
The NCAA didn't hold SMU back. SMU held SMU back. Other programs have faced similar challenges and haven't pooped themselves for 25 years. For 20 years, SMU has been on equal footing with everyone else - shouldn't we start wondering if their incompetence was actually due to their incompetence? :rolleyes: We need to stop treating the SMU case as if it is a given result of the death penalty.

In addition, other programs that have pooped themselves for 25 years, like Duke, admit that it's their own poop, not some external entity unfairly soiling their britches. Why does everyone insist on continuing to attribute SMU's problems to the death penalty?

It's not a "death" penalty. It's a nap**. SMU simply never set their alarm. That's on them. Suspension should still be an option.

**
- Consider Kentucky basketball "death penalty" 1952-53 (followed by Helms Champion, S16, E8, E8, National Champion in the next 5 years!!! and still going strong)
- Consider Louisiana-Lafayette basketball "death penalty" 1973-74 & 1974-75 (winning seasons year 2 and onward; made it to the quarterfinals of the NIT within 5 years; NCAA tournament within 7 years)
- Consider Tulane basketball self-imposed "death penalty" 1985-86 to 1988-89 (made it to the second round of NCAA tournament within 3 years and again in years 4 and 6)

[PackMan97]

There exists no penalty severe enough. The Death Penalty is too swift and merciful. Anything else is too weak.

[OldPhiKap]

There exists no penalty severe enough. The Death Penalty is too swift and merciful. Anything else is too weak.

To the pain!

[moonpie23]

they have to be careful.....the conferences (and certain schools) are too powerful already......all it takes is a couple of conference/colleges/universities heads meeting for lunch and asking the question: "why do we need the ncaa?"

looking at the money, and the power division, i could see them being careful about how HARD they swat an institution. It was easy to step out of bounds with Penn State because of the subject matter. If they only have "integrity" and "academics" to protect, not so much....

It's not that unc is too big to fail, it's about the ncaa decapitating one of it's more illustrious programs.

[cspan37421]

they have to be careful....the conferences (and certain schools) are too powerful already...all it takes is a couple of conference/colleges/universities heads meeting for lunch and asking the question: "why do we need the ncaa?"

looking at the money, and the power division, i could see them being careful about how HARD they swat an institution. It was easy to step out of bounds with Penn State because of the subject matter. If they only have "integrity" and "academics" to protect, not so much...

It's not that unc is too big to fail, it's about the ncaa decapitating one of it's more illustrious programs.

What kind of rules and enforcement body is possible, then, if conferences and schools are too powerful, rules cannot be enforced, and appropriate penalties can't be levied on its more illustrious programs? Seems like the alternatives are some level of anarchy (without a body) or some level of "might is right" (with one that has one hand tied).

bedeviled's post is awesome and should be sent to the NCAA COI. JMO.

[OldPhiKap]

tar and feathers -- it just sounds right.

[sagegrouse]

they have to be careful...the conferences (and certain schools) are too powerful already...all it takes is a couple of conference/colleges/universities heads meeting for lunch and asking the question: "why do we need the ncaa?"

looking at the money, and the power division, i could see them being careful about how HARD they swat an institution. It was easy to step out of bounds with Penn State because of the subject matter. If they only have "integrity" and "academics" to protect, not so much...

It's not that unc is too big to fail, it's about the ncaa decapitating one of it's more illustrious programs.

Quoting Duke AD Kevin White:
"People sometimes misunderstand the NCAA. The NCAA is an entity created by the colleges to enforce the rules put in place by the colleges."

The "bare minimum" to go in a different direction, IMHO (that darned H keeps sneaking out of her room), is the Power Five. The more logical alternative is that the "power" schools and conferences get their own subset of rules under the NCAA umbrella.

[Indoor66]

Walking out and setting a new shop is easier said than done. There are many contracts and obligations that bind the schools to the NCAA - marketing and TV. The lawsuits would kill the teams leaving. The administrative headaches would be overwhelming for the new association. The NCAA has a long history. It has some problems and it has some shortcomings but it will not be easily abandoned - not as easily as some envisage. The Universities and Colleges (most of them) are institutions with some integrity. Yes the money is a big thing but sports are still a tail of a much larger dog. Those of us closely attuned to the sports world make it bigger than it is in the big scheme of things.

[moonpie23]

Yes the money is a big thing but sports are still a tail of a much larger dog.

not at unc....

[BLPOG]

In addition to the most severe forms of all possible penalties that the NCAA can apply to Carolina, I think that additional penalties should be created and applied given the scale of UNC's cheating ways. While it won't happen, we can imagine them.

I like the idea of renaming the Tar Heels as the Frauds, and instead of placing players' names on their jerseys, they should have to wear words associated with the different methods of cheating: "AFAM," "Paper Class," "Grade Change," "Learning Disability," etc.

Also, announcers/commentators at games should be required to use the "names" on the jerseys.

[Indoor66]

not at unCheat...

Which is why Death is the only penalty. Oh, and I corrected the last word of your post...:cool:

[swood1000]

Walking out and setting a new shop is easier said than done. There are many contracts and obligations that bind the schools to the NCAA - marketing and TV. The lawsuits would kill the teams leaving. The administrative headaches would be overwhelming for the new association. The NCAA has a long history. It has some problems and it has some shortcomings but it will not be easily abandoned - not as easily as some envisage. The Universities and Colleges (most of them) are institutions with some integrity. Yes the money is a big thing but sports are still a tail of a much larger dog. Those of us closely attuned to the sports world make it bigger than it is in the big scheme of things.
Also, if a school leaves the NCAA to start its own organization with different rules, NCAA schools may not be permitted to play it.
 

3.3.5 Loss of Member-Conference Status.

3.3.5.1 Termination or Suspension. The membership of any member conference failing to maintain the academic or athletics standards required for membership or failing to meet the conditions and obligations of membership may be suspended or terminated or the member conference otherwise disciplined by a vote of two-thirds of the delegates present and voting at an annual Convention. ...

3.3.5.1.1 Cessation of Rights and Privileges. All rights and privileges of the member shall cease upon any termination or suspension of conference membership.

After all, if it is going to operate by different rules, for example different recruiting rules, it could expect a cessation of its rights and privileges to play NCAA schools or in NCAA tournaments.

[moonpie23]

Also, if a school leaves the NCAA to start its own organization with different rules, NCAA schools may not be permitted to play it.
 

3.3.5 Loss of Member-Conference Status.

3.3.5.1 Termination or Suspension. The membership of any member conference failing to maintain the academic or athletics standards required for membership or failing to meet the conditions and obligations of membership may be suspended or terminated or the member conference otherwise disciplined by a vote of two-thirds of the delegates present and voting at an annual Convention. ...

3.3.5.1.1 Cessation of Rights and Privileges. All rights and privileges of the member shall cease upon any termination or suspension of conference membership.

After all, if it is going to operate by different rules, for example different recruiting rules, it could expect a cessation of its rights and privileges to play NCAA schools or in NCAA tournaments.

i'm not suggesting that it would be easy........the 5 power conferences could leave and agree to just play against each other.......I know this is crazy thinking, but, major record labels used to hold all the cards as well...

[grad_devil]

i'm not suggesting that it would be easy....the 5 power conferences could leave and agree to just play against each other....I know this is crazy thinking, but, major record labels used to hold all the cards as well...

I think the only problem with this idea is that every institution has mistrust towards every other institution. They would need a third party to help enforce whatever rules they agree upon.

Hmm...sounds like NCAA 2.0, to me, no?

[moonpie23]

the money is staggering.......

[swood1000]

i'm not suggesting that it would be easy...the 5 power conferences could leave and agree to just play against each other...I know this is crazy thinking, but, major record labels used to hold all the cards as well...
The football programs might be more willing to do that than the basketball programs would be to give up access to March Madness.

[MarkD83]

i'm not suggesting that it would be easy....the 5 power conferences could leave and agree to just play against each other....I know this is crazy thinking, but, major record labels used to hold all the cards as well...

I believe the NCAA basketball tournament would lose its appeal and therefore the current income stream would drop. Yes the ultimate champion seems to be from the power conferences but the first weekend is what drives interest and revenue.

[swood1000]

the money is staggering...
But leaving the NCAA would probably be a classic case of killing the goose that laid the golden egg. Part of the popularity of college sports is based on one team's position vis–à–vis all the others. Making one's team no longer comparable to most of the others might not be well-received by the fan base.

[swood1000]

the money is staggering...
Also, leaving the NCAA would probably be a public relations disaster. Let's see, how much did your teams receive operating under the NCAA? That wasn't enough? You're forced to share revenues with schools that aren't so well-off and you want to put a stop to that? The issue of revenues seems like one that is of less interest to the fans, who will not perceive a benefit that justifies the down side.

[swood1000]

I believe the NCAA basketball tournament would lose its appeal and therefore the current income stream would drop. Yes the ultimate champion seems to be from the power conferences but the first weekend is what drives interest and revenue.
I agree. The power five tournament would be like just another conference tournament. One the other hand, imagine the revenues from a best of seven playoff between the winner of the NCAA tournament and the winner of the power five tournament. Such a setup would result in both tournaments retaining all their appeal and the playoff would break all records, but the NCAA would never agree to it.

[OldPhiKap]

1. Forfeit all games, seasons and titles in which an ineligible player participated or was on the team.
2. 20% scholarship reduction in each tainted sport for two years, 10% for the third.
3. Post-season ban on all tainted sports, two years.
4. Disgorge all proceeds from championships; pay out that amount over five years (equal installments) to bona fide charities fighting illiteracy.
5. Large fine, payable over three years, to bona fide charities fighting illiteracy.
6. Suck eggs and go to Hell.

[BLPOG]

1. Forfeit all games, seasons and titles in which an ineligible player participated or was on the team.
2. 20% scholarship reduction in each tainted sport for two years, 10% for the third.
3. Post-season ban on all tainted sports, two years.
4. Disgorge all proceeds from championships; pay out that amount over five years (equal installments) to bona fide charities fighting illiteracy.
5. Large fine, payable over three years, to bona fide charities fighting illiteracy.
6. Suck eggs and go to Hell.

I'm surprised by most of the recommendations I read for scholarship reductions. It seems to me that at a minimum, the reduction should be equal to the number of cheating students in the particular sport. So for 1500+ cheating athletes across all the sports over the known era of cheating, we're talking 1500+ scholarship reductions.

[OldPhiKap]

I'm surprised by most of the recommendations I read for scholarship reductions. It seems to me that at a minimum, the reduction should be equal to the number of cheating students in the particular sport. So for 1500+ cheating athletes across all the sports over the known era of cheating, we're talking 1500+ scholarship reductions.

I'm all for it -- but that would effectively be the death penalty for several sports for several years.

Again, I'm not opposed to that but I just don't see it happening. You are correct that something along those lines are what they deserve.

[wilko]

My elegant solution would ensure that no such silliness ever occurs again at UNC.

For a period of say 5 years, I would require all home fans/friends/family/recruits in attendance at any sporting event in Chapel Hill to wear a Duke shirt.
It will be treated as part of a ticket condition upon entry. If they remove their garb, they are escorted out.

[Indoor66]

My elegant solution would ensure that no such silliness ever occurs again at UNC.

For a period of say 5 years, I would require all home fans/friends/family/recruits in attendance at any sporting event in Chapel Hill to wear a Duke shirt.
It will be treated as part of a ticket condition upon entry. If they remove their garb, they are escorted out.

Escorted out and required to support Presbyterian sports.

[weezie]

1. Forfeit all games, seasons and titles in which an ineligible player participated or was on the team.
2. 20% scholarship reduction in each tainted sport for two years, 10% for the third.
3. Post-season ban on all tainted sports, two years.
4. Disgorge all proceeds from championships; pay out that amount over five years (equal installments) to bona fide charities fighting illiteracy.
5. Large fine, payable over three years, to bona fide charities fighting illiteracy.
6. Suck eggs and go to Hell.

May I assume in no particular order? In which case I might put the egg sucking first.


...For a period of say 5 years, I would require all home fans/friends/family/recruits in attendance at any sporting event in Chapel Hill to wear a Duke shirt.
It will be treated as part of a ticket condition upon entry. If they remove their garb, they are escorted out.

We'll need a tail-end policy to prevent the unwashed gap-toothed hicks over there from abusing said shirts after their period of shame.

I also think we need to stipulate that the Mens Rhythmic Stick and Ribbon Waving Dance Team is required to perform during halftime at all of the major sports. And some of the lesser ones, too.

[bedeviled]

For a period of say 5 years, I would require all home fans/friends/family/recruits in attendance at any sporting event in Chapel Hill to wear a Duke shirt.My favorite punishment, should it come to pass, is...
Whenever UNC fans start up with their beloved "TAR"..."HEELS" chant, opposing fans transform it into "TAR"..."NISHED." Ride that thing until it can't stand anymore. Link their own cheer to their shortcomings and etch it into the memory of mankind.

[weezie]

My favorite punishment, should it come to pass, is...
Whenever UNC fans start up with their beloved "TAR"..."HEELS" chant, opposing fans transform it into "TAR"..."NISHED."...

Sound the extended air horn each and every time that sad droning begins.

Actually, this is a fun thread, kind of like, "What I will do when I win the lottery!"

[Indoor66]

"What I will do when I win the lottery!"

I'll buy the entire Dump on the Hump and then burn the damn place to the ground. Also, I'll have enough money left for a nice life and a nice donation to Duke.

[wilko]

We'll need a tail-end policy to prevent the unwashed gap-toothed hicks over there from abusing said shirts after their period of shame.

As long as they obtain their "NCAA Officially licensed shirts" with legal tender; They can do what they wish.

I think more than a couple of them... once they clear the HIGH hurdle of putting it will find they enjoy it.

Its a very flattering product, it will make them look thinner & taller as well as increase confidence, encourage hair growth and straighten their teeth. It may even please a spouse more than those 2 bathtubs at sunset.

Plus they will get tons of compliments from their new friends.

[weezie]

It may even please a spouse more than those 2 bathtubs at sunset.


Going out on limb and declaring no female spouses are pleased with the twin bathtub set up. :eek:

[BD80]

Count Rogen's Machine, on 10, for all eternity.

[PackMan97]

Where I to craft the punishment, this is what it would be.....a walking death penalty.

1. Earase the past
1a - A forfeit of every game of every season in which one player on a team took a fake course.
1b - A return of all post-season revenue earned during that season.
1c - Take down all championship banners and award the second place team the championship
1d - Strike from the records all individual and team accomplishments with regards to wins, stats, steaks, etc. This includes removing these records from any and all UNC, ACC and NCAA publications. Failure to remove the records will result in UNC being removed from the NCAA.

2 - Eliminate the future
2a - For every season a team made the post-seaon using an ineligible players, UNC will recieve one post-season ban. If this means the basketball team earns a 15 year post season ban, so be it.
2b. - For every player that took a fake course during a season, UNC will recieve a reduction in one scholarship for that season. For example, if BB had 8 players take fake courses in a season, that's 8 scholarships to lose. If the next season it was 6, the count is now 14 scholarships. I would allow UNC to distribute the loss of scholarships either all at once into as few seasons as possible or over as many seasons as that team cheated.

3. Hit the pocketbook
3a - Forfeit all athletic department revenue for the next five years.
3b - Distribute UNC's share of ACC and NCAA revenue to the rest of the ACC
3c - UNC is not allowed any home athlettic contests for the next 2 years across all sports.

That ought to do it. I know there is no way for the NCAA to impose this penalty, but if I can just make up stuff I'll make the penalty fit the crime and this is just about as good as I can do.

[BLPOG]

Where I to craft the punishment, this is what it would be....a walking death penalty.

1. Earase the past
1a - A forfeit of every game of every season in which one player on a team took a fake course.
1b - A return of all post-season revenue earned during that season.
1c - Take down all championship banners and award the second place team the championship
1d - Strike from the records all individual and team accomplishments with regards to wins, stats, steaks, etc. This includes removing these records from any and all UNC, ACC and NCAA publications. Failure to remove the records will result in UNC being removed from the NCAA.

2 - Eliminate the future
2a - For every season a team made the post-seaon using an ineligible players, UNC will recieve one post-season ban. If this means the basketball team earns a 15 year post season ban, so be it.
2b. - For every player that took a fake course during a season, UNC will recieve a reduction in one scholarship for that season. For example, if BB had 8 players take fake courses in a season, that's 8 scholarships to lose. If the next season it was 6, the count is now 14 scholarships. I would allow UNC to distribute the loss of scholarships either all at once into as few seasons as possible or over as many seasons as that team cheated.

3. Hit the pocketbook
3a - Forfeit all athletic department revenue for the next five years.
3b - Distribute UNC's share of ACC and NCAA revenue to the rest of the ACC
3c - UNC is not allowed any home athlettic contests for the next 2 years across all sports.

That ought to do it. I know there is no way for the NCAA to impose this penalty, but if I can just make up stuff I'll make the penalty fit the crime and this is just about as good as I can do.

I agree with these suggestions completely. It's the only punishment even roughly proportional to the extent of cheating. The only thing to add is that certain specific individuals should be given show cause orders or banned from their sports.

[swood1000]

I still think that I would like to see some reference to UNC enter into the permanent English vocabulary, as happened when "benedict arnold" became synonymous with "traitor." Some UNC reference should come to be used generally to refer to a person or organization whose cheating shocks the conscience.

[rasputin]

I still think that I would like to see some reference to UNC enter into the permanent English vocabulary, as happened when "benedict arnold" became synonymous with "traitor." Some UNC reference should come to be used generally to refer to a person or organization whose cheating shocks the conscience.

Like "Belichick"?

[PackMan97]

I agree with these suggestions completely. It's the only punishment even roughly proportional to the extent of cheating. The only thing to add is that certain specific individuals should be given show cause orders or banned from their sports.

Negative, I want to see Anson Dorance and Roy Williams have to coach teams full of walk-ons.

[CameronBlue]

I still think that I would like to see some reference to UNC enter into the permanent English vocabulary, as happened when "benedict arnold" became synonymous with "traitor." Some UNC reference should come to be used generally to refer to a person or organization whose cheating shocks the conscience.

How about a reporter with the guts to ask, at every post-game presser as long as Roy is coach, "Did you and Dean ever discuss the cheating scandal that took place at UNC spanning your terms as head of UNC basketball?" "Did you discuss it with Coach Guthridge?" or better yet "Do you think William Friday is looking down from heaven in despair over how you and Dean destroyed the integrity of a once honorable institution?"...and then keep repeating the same questions until Roy offers a cogent (and believable) response...or until John Swofford yanks the reporter's press credentials.

Option 2: The NCAA forces UNC to accept a new licensing agreement which stipulates that all sports related references to UNC must be worded "UNC: An Unparalleled Tradition of Cheating Excellence."

or Option 3, the Nathaniel Hawthorne treatment: the NCAA requires UNC to embroider scarlet "C"s in the middle of their game jerseys.

[OldPhiKap]

How about a reporter with the guts to ask, at every post-game presser as long as Roy is coach, "Did you and Dean ever discuss the cheating scandal that took place at UNC spanning your terms as head of UNC basketball?" "Did you discuss it with Coach Guthridge?" or better yet "Do you think William Friday is looking down from heaven in despair over how you and Dean destroyed the integrity of a once honorable institution?"...and then keep repeating the same questions until Roy offers a cogent (and believable) response...or until John Swofford yanks the reporter's press credentials.

Option 2: The NCAA forces UNC to accept a new licensing agreement which stipulates that all sports related references to UNC must be worded "UNC: An Unparalleled Tradition of Cheating Excellence."

or Option 3, the Nathaniel Hawthorne treatment: the NCAA requires UNC to embroider scarlet "C"s in the middle of their game jerseys.

How about jerseys that simply say "Dean knew" on them? I would forgive a lot of other stuff for a year of that.

[rasputin]

Negative, I want to see Anson Dorance and Roy Williams have to coach teams full of walk-ons.

That would be unsafe for the walk-ons when the team has gotten blown out on the road, the kids are storming the court, and Roy has already bailed.

[BD80]

That would be unsafe for the walk-ons when the team has gotten blown out on the road, the kids are storming the court, and Roy has already bailed.

That would be a tragedy. Forcing ol' roy to choose which of his walk-ons get to flee the court to safety with him, and which ones he leaves to finish the game and face the hostile crowd.

Of course, in my mind, unc becomes one of those games that the stands are empty by halftime because the visiting heels are down by 60 and haven't scored an intentional basket.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Seeing as how it's been 15 months since this poll was posted, can we make "anything, just DO IT already" and option?

[lotusland]

Let's start with Roy writing "I will not cheat and then act sanctimonious" on the internet board 500 times.

[BD80]

Let's start with Roy writing "I will not cheat and then act sanctimonious" on the internet board 500 times.

Wow. That's more work than any of his players ever had to do.

Correction: That's more work than ALL of his players have ever done.

[moonpie23]

Like "Belichick"?

i nominate this post for POST OF THE DECADE...