Godfathers of Duke

[CameronBornAndBred]

Cool ESPN article looking back at K's '82 class.

"That was the class that set the template, the model was established," Krzyzewski said. "Not just the caliber of player, but the caliber of person, and that's what we've tried to do over the years is try to replicate that."
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/11659705/duke-blue-devils-1982-recruiting-class-laid-groundwork-mike-krzyzewski-success

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Cool ESPN article looking back at K's '82 class.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/11659705/duke-blue-devils-1982-recruiting-class-laid-groundwork-mike-krzyzewski-success

Great article. Sporked.

Interesting perspective to see how it was one of the last in-tact four-year.#1 recruiting classes that will ever been seen. I liked this quote from Bilas: "We didn't stick around because we were of better character or valued education more than these guys. We stuck around because there wasn't the money. If there was the money, Johnny Dawkins would have had a tough time saying no."

I think it's easy to look back and say "wow, players back then had so much more character because they valued education and stuck around four years." Reality is, most of them would have relished the opportunities that today's players have.

Also, excellent points in the article about how today's top players all know each other - if not from playing together, at least from reputation and having seen each other at camps, AAU tourneys, and the like. Amazing to imagine that only 30 years ago, they didn't even know what other top players looked like. You can say what you will about the strangeness that might create, but it certainly has to be an asset when you have a group of kids coming in together like K does this year.

[devil84]

Great article. Sporked.

Interesting perspective to see how it was one of the last in-tact four-year.#1 recruiting classes that will ever been seen. I liked this quote from Bilas: "We didn't stick around because we were of better character or valued education more than these guys. We stuck around because there wasn't the money. If there was the money, Johnny Dawkins would have had a tough time saying no."

I think it's easy to look back and say "wow, players back then had so much more character because they valued education and stuck around four years." Reality is, most of them would have relished the opportunities that today's players have.

Also, excellent points in the article about how today's top players all know each other - if not from playing together, at least from reputation and having seen each other at camps, AAU tourneys, and the like. Amazing to imagine that only 30 years ago, they didn't even know what other top players looked like. You can say what you will about the strangeness that might create, but it certainly has to be an asset when you have a group of kids coming in together like K does this year.

While that recruiting class would have relished the opportunities today's players have, that class most certainly valued education. All of the recruited players were true student-athletes and took their studies seriously. One, Weldon Williams, was a BME. A BME! After Duke, Johnny Dawkins and David Henderson stayed in basketball and coached at the collegiate level. Mark Alarie went on to get an MBA at Wharton after his NBA and short-lived coaching career ended. Weldon Williams became an engineer, and later returned to a theological seminary. Jay Bilas got his JD at Duke while coaching. Bill Jackman, who transferred back home to Nebraska after his freshman year also got his MBA after his basketball career was over. Four of the six have advanced degrees. That's pretty impressive.

But don't let Jay fool you. While these guys would have relished being able to jump to the NBA early, they were all real students and valued their education. And they were also pretty impressive athletes.

As far as not knowing what anybody looked like coming in...nobody knew anybody when they got to college back then. You didn't spend hours over the summer stalkinglooking up your new roommate and future colleagues. You didn't know what everybody else did and had preconceived notions of who you were going to school with. You showed up, poured over the pic book to find out who the cute guys/girls are, then set out to meet your peers...pretty much as equals, without knowing the impressive feats that got them into Duke. Same goes for the basketball court. After watching my kids in their undergrad and grad school endeavors, yeah, I'm pretty glad I went to school in the digital stone age. (Personal computers came out my freshman year.)

[cato]

But don't let Jay fool you. While these guys would have relished being able to jump to the NBA early, they were all real students and valued their education. And they were also pretty impressive athletes.



I know that you are not implying that current Duke students who play MBB are anything less than real students who value their education. That would be disrespectful to both the kids and the staff that recruited them.

In all likelihood, Bilas would have followed a similar career path these days as he did years ago. JD is a different story -- and that is why Jay singled him out. The money factor is not one to scoff at, or take lightly. It is not a matter of having a little extra walking around money. It could be enough to change the financial trajectory of a family for generations to come. That is not an opportunity that comes around for many people these days.

Might JD have stayed longer these days, like Jason Williams did almost two decades later? Perhaps. But that is an unknowable thing. The only thing we know is that the calculation is different these days. And that no one like Dawkins has stayed in college for 4 years under the current financial structure of the NBA.

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

And that no one like Dawkins has stayed in college for 4 years under the current financial structure of the NBA.

Does Doug McDermott count?

[subzero02]

If McDermott counts(#11 pick in the 2014 draft) then Battier counts too (#6 pick in 2001). Battier's draft was top heavy with high school players, some of whom were spectacular flops. That being said, if the 2001 draft were done again, he'd probably still go around #5 or #6.Dawkins was the #10 pick in 86. I don't know how each would've faired in terms of draft position if they had left after their junior years... I think Battier could still have been a lottery pick in 2000; I am not so sure about Mcdermott in 2013. Would Dawkins have been a lottery selection in 85?

[cato]

If McDermott counts(#11 pick in the 2014 draft) then Battier counts too (#6 pick in 2001). Battier's draft was top heavy with high school players, some of whom were spectacular flops. That being said, if the 2001 draft were done again, he'd probably still go around #5 or #6.Dawkins was the #10 pick in 86. I don't know how each would've faired in terms of draft position if they had left after their junior years... I think Battier could still have been a lottery pick in 2000; I am not so sure about Mcdermott in 2013. Would Dawkins have been a lottery selection in 85?

Battier does not count because the economics were different.

My instinct is to dismiss McDermott, but maybe I'm glorifying Dawkins too much, and underestimating McDermott. I sure would like to have seen Dawkins play the modern college game, though.

[subzero02]

Battier does not count because the economics were different.

My instinct is to dismiss McDermott, but maybe I'm glorifying Dawkins too much, and underestimating McDermott. I sure would like to have seen Dawkins play the modern college game, though.

If you are referring to the rookie salary cap/pay scale, then Battier and Mcdermott made their draft decisions under similar economic structures. The rookie pay scale has been part of the NBA cba since the 95-96 season.

http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/info/rookie_scale/2002

[sagegrouse]

While that recruiting class would have relished the opportunities today's players have, that class most certainly valued education. All of the recruited players were true student-athletes and took their studies seriously. One, Weldon Williams, was a BME. A BME! After Duke, Johnny Dawkins and David Henderson stayed in basketball and coached at the collegiate level. Mark Alarie went on to get an MBA at Wharton after his NBA and short-lived coaching career ended. Weldon Williams became an engineer, and later returned to a theological seminary. Jay Bilas got his JD at Duke while coaching. Bill Jackman, who transferred back home to Nebraska after his freshman year also got his MBA after his basketball career was over. Four of the six have advanced degrees. That's pretty impressive.



Presumably a biomedical engineer, although graduate work at the Budapesti Műszaki és Gazdaságtudományi Egyetem would have been my second guess.

[devil84]

I know that you are not implying that current Duke students who play MBB are anything less than real students who value their education. That would be disrespectful to both the kids and the staff that recruited them.

In all likelihood, Bilas would have followed a similar career path these days as he did years ago. JD is a different story -- and that is why Jay singled him out. The money factor is not one to scoff at, or take lightly. It is not a matter of having a little extra walking around money. It could be enough to change the financial trajectory of a family for generations to come. That is not an opportunity that comes around for many people these days.

Might JD have stayed longer these days, like Jason Williams did almost two decades later? Perhaps. But that is an unknowable thing. The only thing we know is that the calculation is different these days. And that no one like Dawkins has stayed in college for 4 years under the current financial structure of the NBA.

Let me be very clear: I implied absolutely nothing about any other student-athletes, current or former, at Duke or other schools, except those I listed. I talked only about six players recruited to Duke that arrived in 1982. Jay Bilas seemed to be implying that he and his teammates didn't prioritize academics as highly as basketball. That all graduated in four years and four of the six have advanced degrees belies that idea.

I do believe that those six players exemplify what Coach K looks for in a recruit: exceptional athletes and a keen interest in academics and learning. I imagine that those six are the yardstick by which K judges recruits. Not only were those six players excellent athletes that highly value and actively sought their degrees, they were genuinely nice kids (still are) both on and off the court. They truly embraced the scholar-athlete ideal. The other teammates on K's first four teams (the only four I was a part of) also embraced the scholar-athlete ideal as well as being really good people, but, as they aren't a part of The Godfathers of Duke, any omission of them or other past/future players in this simply because the topic of the thread is The Godfathers of Duke.

Like you say, Bilas would have followed a similar career path these days as he did years ago, as would the others. But would JD have become a collegiate head coach if he had jumped to the NBA? Like Sidney Lowe at NCSU, he would likely have to finish his degree before he could take a head coaching job. Could he be hired as an assistant coach if he doesn't have his degree -- especially if he's missing three years?

We can't take the kids from the 70s and 80s and compare them to today's culture of one-and-dones. Ever the optimist (and a HUGE fan of Johnny), I'd like to say that he'd buck the system and get his degree. But the lure of not just the money but the dream of playing in the NBA would probably have taken him early. Which, to me, is sad, because the atmosphere of the NBA regular season game I attended (n=1, so it's meaningless), is NOTHING like playing in Cameron.

[TKG]

I am reminded about the recruiting class that got away and I think it might have been the one just before the Godfathers. K pursued and came in second for the services of Chris Mullins, Bill Wennington, Uwe Blab and Jim Miller. I think those guys were Class of 1985.

[hood7]

Johnny Dawkins' commitment to Duke absolutely changed the course of Duke Basketball. Pretty obvious to anyone that was around in those days.

[Kimist]

Johnny Dawkins' commitment to Duke absolutely changed the course of Duke Basketball. Pretty obvious to anyone that was around in those days.

Absolutely. One of the best athletes ever to don the Duke blue.

(And my first year for season tickets was G-man's senior year.)

While I'm here, one of my favorite questions: Who will be the next Duke basketball player to have his jersey retired?

Yeah, things are different now:(. . .

k

[subzero02]

Absolutely. One of the best athletes ever to don the Duke blue.

(And my first year for season tickets was G-man's senior year.)

While I'm here, one of my favorite questions: Who will be the next Duke basketball player to have his jersey retired?

Yeah, things are different now:(. . .

k

Jahlil Okafor when he graduates in 2022 after winning NPOY, an NCAA Championship and Final Four MOP in 2015... Or Luke Kennard in 2019.

[nmduke2001]

This morning on Mike and Mike, John Salley said that he, Johnny Dawkins and Len Bias had all agreed (amongst themselves) to go to Maryland. Johnny changed his mind, so John Salley changed his too. That decision, likely, altered two programs forever.

[Edouble]

This morning on Mike and Mike, John Salley said that he, Johnny Dawkins and Len Bias had all agreed (amongst themselves) to go to Maryland. Johnny changed his mind, so John Salley changed his too. That decision, likely, altered two programs forever.

Not three? Which two are you meaning?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Not three? Which two are you meaning?

Not whichever school Salley went to, I guess

[ramdevil]

This morning on Mike and Mike, John Salley said that he, Johnny Dawkins and Len Bias had all agreed (amongst themselves) to go to Maryland. Johnny changed his mind, so John Salley changed his too. That decision, likely, altered two programs forever.

Is this the football quarterback John Salley? Or someone different?

-ramdevil

[CameronBornAndBred]

Jahlil Okafor when he graduates in 2022 after winning NPOY, an NCAA Championship and Final Four MOP in 2015... Or Luke Kennard in 2019.
You still have a chance to go two for four on your predictions.

[nmduke2001]

Not three? Which two are you meaning?
Duke and MD. Johnny made Duke a power. Bias, Dawkins and Salley at MD might have won a championship and possibly made MD a great PROGRAM. John Sally also said that Len Bias would have been the best player ever. He said that Bias could do anything Jordan could do but do it at 6'-9". Bias was a bit before my time, but it seems that you always hear things like this about him.


Is this the football quarterback John Salley? Or someone different?

-ramdevil

John "Spider" Salley. GT Yellow Jacket and Detroit Piston (most notably, though he did win titles with Chicago and LA).

[BigWayne]

Presumably a biomedical engineer, although graduate work at the Budapesti Műszaki és Gazdaságtudományi Egyetem would have been my second guess.

Yes, biomedical. At that time we had biomedical, civil, electrical, and mechanical as engineering majors.

Weldon struggled and was ineligible at least one semester. It's pretty tough to be a scholarship athlete and major in engineering.

[BigWayne]

I am reminded about the recruiting class that got away and I think it might have been the one just before the Godfathers. K pursued and came in second for the services of Chris Mullins, Bill Wennington, Uwe Blab and Jim Miller. I think those guys were Class of 1985.
Yes, recruiting class of 1981. After having gotten only Doug McNeely in his first recruiting class, K was short on bodies and had to get a set of replacement players after the big 4 misses.

44 Todd Anderson F 6-9 230 Fr. Golden Valley, Minn. (Armstrong)
33 Jay Bryan F 6-8 200 Fr. Lakewood, CO (Bear Creek)
45 Dan Meagher F 6-7 215 Fr. St. Catherines, Ontario (Denis Morris)
25 Greg Wendt G/F 6-6 200 Fr. Livonia, Mich.

[BD80]

... John "Spider" Salley. GT Yellow Jacket and Detroit Piston (most notably, though he did win titles with Chicago and LA).

I would suggest that it was more notable that he was a key player in the Pistons back-to-back championships in '89 and '90.

[nmduke2001]

I would suggest that it was more notable that he was a key player in the Pistons back-to-back championships in '89 and '90.

That's what I meant, but I put the () in the wrong spot.

[Olympic Fan]

Great article. Sporked.

Interesting perspective to see how it was one of the last in-tact four-year.#1 recruiting classes that will ever been seen.

Hate to be picky, but technically, the Class of 1982 was not an "intact four-year class."

Bill Jackman bailed after one season.

You guys are right that the Class of 1982 came after K's spectacular failure in 1981 -- we remember that he missed Chris Mullins, Bill Wennington, Uwe Blab and Jimmy Miller, but perhaps the most bitter loss was forward Rodney Willliams, who reneged on a private commitment, and went to Florida. It's just that unlike the other guys we missed that year who became stellar players, Williams flopped. I know there were some other very public misses that year (Todd Berkenpass, who became a good player at Iowa). K recruited, but was never really in it for Michael Jordan from Wilmington.

That put a lot of pressure on a young, unproven Coach K as he started working the class of 1982. His first get -- early -- was Weldon Williams, a kid Bobby Knight wanted at Indiana. Then he got Jackman, billed as the next Larry Bird, from Nebraska. Just before Christmas, K landed Jay Bilas from California.

At that point, people were raving about his recruiting class. Yet, in hindsight, it wasn't that good at that point -- Jackman would flop, Williams would be a marginal player and Bilas would become a good, but not great post player.

But the early hype took some of the heat off K. He was able to focus on rounding out his class. The interesting battle was with Digger Phelps at Notre Dame. K beat Digger for Mark Alarie out of Arizona, then they two coaches battled for two talented guards -- Jo Jo Buchanan and Johnny Dawkins. It was reported that one school would get one of them and the other school one of them. I know they K would have taken both, but he preferred Dawkins. In the end, Digger won the battle for Buchanan (a college flop) and K won Dawkins. The final piece was supposed to be Durham's Curtis Hunter, but when he picked UNC, K "settled" for David Henderson (who became a MUCH better college player).

That class was not only the foundation for K's dynasty, they also the highest scoring class in NCAA history.

I should also note that the Class of 1982 is probably the strongest class in ACC history. Not only did K kick-start his program, but Bobby Cremins kick-started his with Mark Price and John Salley; Lefty landed the great Len Bias and UNC landed Brad Daugherty, the future No. 1 pick in the draft (plus a fine college guard in Steve Hale).

The highest rated ACC recruit that year was Hunter, who had an undistinguished career at UNC.

[Dukeford]

Does anybody remember the recruiting class of 82's first NCAA tournament game? In 1984.
It was on a Sunday IIRC, against Washington, and I remember being very frustrated at the end of that game.
Seems like Duke was the better team, but struggled the whole game. ultimately losing by 2 points.
Anyway, I seem to remember they still had a chance at the end of the game, but the last play was controversial. Like maybe Dawkins was fouled on a lob attempt, but no whistle?
Anybody else been around long enough to remember this?

[BigWayne]

Does anybody remember the recruiting class of 82's first NCAA tournament game? In 1984.
It was on a Sunday IIRC, against Washington, and I remember being very frustrated at the end of that game.
Seems like Duke was the better team, but struggled the whole game. ultimately losing by 2 points.
Anyway, I seem to remember they still had a chance at the end of the game, but the last play was controversial. Like maybe Dawkins was fouled on a lob attempt, but no whistle?
Anybody else been around long enough to remember this?

The name Detlef Schrempf comes to mind.

[The Gordog]

Duke and MD. Johnny made Duke a power. Bias, Dawkins and Salley at MD might have won a championship and possibly made MD a great PROGRAM. John Sally also said that Len Bias would have been the best player ever. He said that Bias could do anything Jordan could do but do it at 6'-9". Bias was a bit before my time, but it seems that you always hear things like this about him.



John "Spider" Salley. GT Yellow Jacket and Detroit Piston (most notably, though he did win titles with Chicago and LA).

Saw them both play in Cameron (T'86) and I agree. Bias was more feared than anyone. He was the main man on a very good team, whereas MJ was one of many stars at his "school". Could be MJ less feared just because they had more weapons so it was spread around. I can still see Bias catching the ball on the sideline right in front of me and thinking to myself that is the biggest and strongest guy I have ever seen with real guard skills.

[Olympic Fan]

Saw them both play in Cameron (T'86) and I agree. Bias was more feared than anyone. He was the main man on a very good team, whereas MJ was one of many stars at his "school". Could be MJ less feared just because they had more weapons so it was spread around. I can still see Bias catching the ball on the sideline right in front of me and thinking to myself that is the biggest and strongest guy I have ever seen with real guard skills.

Bias was bigger than Jordan, but I don't know if he was better -- even in college.

They were close -- for his career Bias averaged 16.4 ppg, 5.7 rpb., 1.2 apg. ... he shot 53.6 percent from the field; Jordan averaged 17.7, 5.0 rebounds, 1.8 assists and shot 54.0 percent from the floor. Both played before the 3-point shot, except for the 1983 experiment -- Bias hit 3 of 11 that year ... Jordan his 34 of 76. Of course, Bias was a freshman that season, Jordan a soph.

I don't think anyone would question that Jordan was a far superior defensive player.

Jordan was also a more honored player -- a unanimous first-team All-American as a soph and junior (he didn't play as a senior). Bias was a second-team All-American as a junior and a consensus (but not unanimous) All-American as a senior. Jordan was the concensus national player of the year as a junior (and beat Ralph Sampson for one award as a soph). Bias never won a recognized NPOY award.

Bias was great as a senior, averaging 23.2 (more than Jordan's best year) ... but he did it on a team that was 6-8 in the ACC and 19-14 overall.

Bias was great, but Jordan was the (slightly) better college player.

Of course, neither of them was anywhere close to as good (in college) as David Thompson.

[Bob Green]

Anyway, I seem to remember they still had a chance at the end of the game, but the last play was controversial. Like maybe Dawkins was fouled on a lob attempt, but no whistle?
Anybody else been around long enough to remember this?

Prior to the last play, Coach K wanted additional time put back on the clock but the Ref stated he wasn't going to argue over a second. Coach K responded, "Who the hell are you." Or words to that effect. Time wasn't put back on the clock and Duke didn't score.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Prior to the last play, Coach K wanted additional time put back on the clock but the Ref stated he wasn't going to argue over a second. Coach K responded, "Who the hell are you." Or words to that effect. Time wasn't put back on the clock and Duke didn't score.
In 1984, the ref could have rightfully responded back with the same question. ;) (Perhaps for the last time, at least in the tourney.)

[jv001]

Bias was bigger than Jordan, but I don't know if he was better -- even in college.

They were close -- for his career Bias averaged 16.4 ppg, 5.7 rpb., 1.2 apg. ... he shot 53.6 percent from the field; Jordan averaged 17.7, 5.0 rebounds, 1.8 assists and shot 54.0 percent from the floor. Both played before the 3-point shot, except for the 1983 experiment -- Bias hit 3 of 11 that year ... Jordan his 34 of 76. Of course, Bias was a freshman that season, Jordan a soph.

I don't think anyone would question that Jordan was a far superior defensive player.

Jordan was also a more honored player -- a unanimous first-team All-American as a soph and junior (he didn't play as a senior). Bias was a second-team All-American as a junior and a consensus (but not unanimous) All-American as a senior. Jordan was the concensus national player of the year as a junior (and beat Ralph Sampson for one award as a soph). Bias never won a recognized NPOY award.

Bias was great as a senior, averaging 23.2 (more than Jordan's best year) ... but he did it on a team that was 6-8 in the ACC and 19-14 overall.

Bias was great, but Jordan was the (slightly) better college player.

Of course, neither of them was anywhere close to as good (in college) as David Thompson.

True and I don't think anyone was close. The closest being Christian Laettner. GoDuke!

[Rich]

The name Detlef Schrempf comes to mind.

I was at the game in Cameron the following season when we got our revenge. In addition to the German native Schrempf, Washington had a 7 footer named Christian Welp, also from Germany. At one point I recall the Crazies yelling "Air Woop," which I seemed to recall was meant to be "Air Ball" in German, but my memory is clearly fuzzy.

[Turk]

You guys are right that the Class of 1982 came after K's spectacular failure in 1981 -- we remember that he missed Chris Mullins, Bill Wennington, Uwe Blab and Jimmy Miller, but perhaps the most bitter loss was forward Rodney Willliams, who reneged on a private commitment, and went to Florida. It's just that unlike the other guys we missed that year who became stellar players, Williams flopped. I know there were some other very public misses that year (Todd Berkenpass, who became a good player at Iowa). K recruited, but was never really in it for Michael Jordan from Wilmington.



This is the first time I heard about any "private commitment" with Rodney Williams. The story I remember about Williams is that he was our #1 guy but there was some sort of pushback from the admissions office about his academics. For whatever reason, he wasn't feeling the love and stayed in Florida. It was absolutely the most bitter loss; the consensus was that Mullin was never really serious about leaving NYC and the other two were decent big centers that weren't going to make anyone forget Bill Walton. People were expecting Rodney Williams to become what Johnny Dawkins turned out to be.

Of course, the rumor about the admissions office could well have been self-delusional self-congratulatory self-defense: "Player X didn't come here because he couldn't get an admissions waiver."

I have absolutely no recollection of Jimmy Miller at all. Google to the rescue! Looks like did OK with his UVa education...

http://www.themillerfinancialgroup.com/p/meet-jim-miller