Sons of former players

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

In the front page piece, it's mentioned that Winslow's dad was part of Houston's Phi Slamma Jamma, and Jeter's dad was on the UNLV 1990 team. I hadn't really thought about it previously, but K has been coaching at Duke long enough that his players' kids are well old enough to have played for him too. I think it would have to be incredibly rare for a father and son to play for the same coach at the same school.

As far as I know this hasn't happened. At Duke it hasn't, but has it happened at another school?
Have there been any sons of players that have even been on the Duke's recruiting radar?

[sagegrouse]

In the front page piece, it's mentioned that Winslow's dad was part of Houston's Phi Slamma Jamma, and Jeter's dad was on the UNLV 1990 team. I hadn't really thought about it previously, but K has been coaching at Duke long enough that his players' kids are well old enough to have played for him too. I think it would have to be incredibly rare for a father and son to play for the same coach at the same school.

As far as I know this hasn't happened. At Duke it hasn't, but has it happened at another school?
Have there been any sons of players that have even been on the Duke's recruiting radar?


It has occurred at Duke! Jay Buckley, who played from 1961 to 1964 had a son, Clay Buckley, who played from 1997-1991. Jay was second team All-ACC IIRC and was the leading scorer in dismantling Michigan in the National Semis. Jay got a PhD in physics (Hopkins) and has been part of the space program ever since.

[Bob Green]

As far as I know this hasn't happened. At Duke it hasn't, but has it happened at another school?
Have there been any sons of players that have even been on the Duke's recruiting radar?


But it has happened at Duke, Clay Buckey is the son of Jay Buckley. Clay played for Coach K while Jay played for Coach Bubas.

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

But it has happened at Duke, Clay Buckey is the son of Jay Buckley. Clay played for Coach K while Jay played for Coach Bubas.

Right, but they didn't both play for Coach K.

I'm looking for any father/son combinations that have both played for the same school AND coach. Has K had the opportunity to coach the son of a former K-era player?

There aren't that many coaches that have coached long enough at the same school for this to even be possible. Dean, Boeheim, Knight, Chaney, Olson off the top of my head.

[flyingdutchdevil]

He'll be a Duke guy.

Candace and Shelden genes? Oh boy. World, watch out!

[roywhite]

Right, but they didn't both play for Coach K.

I'm looking for any father/son combinations that have both played for the same school AND coach. Has K had the opportunity to coach the son of a former K-era player?

There aren't that many coaches that have coached long enough at the same school for this to even be possible. Dean, Boeheim, Knight, Chaney, Olson off the top of my head.

Can't think of any offhand.

Antonio Lang's son, T.J. Lang, I believe got a quick look from Duke, committed to Va Tech, and then ended up at Auburn after the Hokie coaching change.

[Jarhead]

In the front page piece, it's mentioned that Winslow's dad was part of Houston's Phi Slamma Jamma, and Jeter's dad was on the UNLV 1990 team. I hadn't really thought about it previously, but K has been coaching at Duke long enough that his players' kids are well old enough to have played for him too. I think it would have to be incredibly rare for a father and son to play for the same coach at the same school.

As far as I know this hasn't happened. At Duke it hasn't, but has it happened at another school?
Have there been any sons of players that have even been on the Duke's recruiting radar?


Duke has had T Moorman II and T Moorman III taking care of football players as team surgeons, and as pretty terrific football players over the years. There is also the combination of Billy Werber Sr and Billy Werber Jr. Junior played baseball under Jack Coombs, but Senior played both basketball and baseball, and did so in supreme style.

[rasputin]

Duke has had T Moorman II and T Moorman III taking care of football players as team surgeons, and as pretty terrific football players over the years. There is also the combination of Billy Werber Sr and Billy Werber Jr. Junior played baseball under Jack Coombs, but Senior played both basketball and baseball, and did so in supreme style.

And, he poured the beer.

[budwom]

The Melchionnis are also a near miss (if a decade is a near miss) as the elder graduated in the early 1970s, having endured The Horrid Bucky Era.
Too bad Gary didn't get to play for K, he was great to watch and is a really good guy.

[sagegrouse]

Dave Sime --> [skip a generation] --> Max McCaffrey. Dave Sime set six world records in three weeks back in 1956. Dave also played baseball and suited up with the football team one year, but he didn't letter, and I'm not sure he ever played

Max's mother Lisa (Dave's daughter) is married to Ed McCaffrey, whom she met at Stanford (Lisa was a soccer player). When Ed was traded to the Broncos, the wives of the new Broncos were asked to meet with the team owners and executives, and many were quite nervous. When Lisa was asked whether she worked, she responded, "I was working, until I got knocked up. Now my job is breeding fast white guys." This definitely broke the ice.

[tommy]

In the front page piece, it's mentioned that Winslow's dad was part of Houston's Phi Slamma Jamma, and Jeter's dad was on the UNLV 1990 team. I hadn't really thought about it previously, but K has been coaching at Duke long enough that his players' kids are well old enough to have played for him too. I think it would have to be incredibly rare for a father and son to play for the same coach at the same school.

As far as I know this hasn't happened. At Duke it hasn't, but has it happened at another school?
Have there been any sons of players that have even been on the Duke's recruiting radar?



If it did happen, the rest of the CBB world would be crying about what an "unfair advantage" Coach K had in Jr.'s recruitment.

[Olympic Fan]

Dave Sime --> [skip a generation] --> Max McCaffrey. Dave Sime set six world records in three weeks back in 1956. Dave also played baseball and suited up with the football team one year, but he didn't letter, and I'm not sure he ever played


Dave Sime DID play football for Duke -- he started several games at Lonesome End.

If you go to his Wikipedia entry, you'll see where it talks about Sime catching a TD pass early in the 1958 Duke-Notre Dame game ... then catching a second TD pass on Duke's next possession and drawing triple coverage from that point on.

That's totally bogus (imagine, something on the internet that's wrong!) -- to begin with, Notre Dame won that game 9-7 ... and the one Duke touchdown came early in the game on a four-yard pass from QB Bob Brodhead to HB Dane Lee.

I was just a kid in those days and I can recall the excitement of watching the world's fastest man line up at Lonesome End (a position designed by Army's Red Blaik -- the one wide receiver in those days stayed wide and never came back to the huddle -- hence, the "Lonesome" end). I don't think Sime ever caught a TD pass ... and as sage point out, he didn't play enough to letter. That may have been because that was the era of two-way football and Murray only used him in offensive situations.

While Sime was not much of a contributor in football, he was a great baseball player --pretty sure he made at least one All-America team. And, obviously, he was world class in track and field. He was also a world class speed skater ... Jim Sumner can add more -- he wrote the definitive Dave Sime piece a few years ago. Don't know if he mentioned Sime's role in working with the CIA in the 1960 Rome Olympics (trying to get Russian athletes to defect). He had bad, bad luck in the Olympics. He pulled a hamstring just before the 1956 Games, when he held the world record in the 100. He made a surprising comeback in 1960, but lost the gold in the 100 when the German Armin Hary got away with a blatant false start and snipped him at the tape. Sime then anchored the 4 x 100 relay ream to an easy win, but the team was disqualified because of an out-of-the-zone handoff earlier in the relay.

I can't think of K coaching the fathers of any of his players, but he has coached AGAINST the fathers of at least two Duke players (before Jeter). Nolan Smith's Dad, Derek Smith, played for the Louisville team that beat Duke 99-61 in the 1982 (Smith also lost to Bill Foster's Duke team as a freshman in 1979). Smith had 14 points and 6 rebounds in the '82 rout of Duke.

Drederick Irving had 14 points for Boston University in the 1988 NCAA Tournament loss to Duke -- he was, of course, the father of Kyrie.

And Chris Jeter did see three minutes of action (all 0s on his stat line, except one turnover) in UNLV's 1990 title game victory over Duke. He didn't play in the '91 semifinal game that Duke won.

[nmduke2001]

These two played for JoePa and wrote a book about it.
http://www.amazon.com/Playing-Paterno-Coach-Father-Recollections/dp/1600780008

[Tom B.]

Dave Sime --> [skip a generation] --> Max McCaffrey. Dave Sime set six world records in three weeks back in 1956. Dave also played baseball and suited up with the football team one year, but he didn't letter, and I'm not sure he ever played

Max's mother Lisa (Dave's daughter) is married to Ed McCaffrey, whom she met at Stanford (Lisa was a soccer player). When Ed was traded to the Broncos, the wives of the new Broncos were asked to meet with the team owners and executives, and many were quite nervous. When Lisa was asked whether she worked, she responded, "I was working, until I got knocked up. Now my job is breeding fast white guys." This definitely broke the ice.




And to complete the family tree, Ed's brother Billy McCaffrey played basketball for Duke from 1989 to 1991. He came in with Bobby Hurley and played mostly as a reserve his freshman year, then started 21 of 38 games and averaged 11.6 ppg in his sophomore season, which ended with Duke's first national championship. Then he transferred to Vanderbilt where, after sitting out a year, he averaged over 20 ppg and shot over 46% from three-point range over the next two seasons. He led Vanderbilt to an SEC regular-season championship and an NCAA Sweet 16 appearance in 1993, and shot an incredible 51.2% (83-for-162) from three-point range that year.

[Tom B.]

There was an uncle/nephew combo that played for Dean Smith -- Walter and Hubert Davis.

Roy Williams and his son, Scott, missed pulling off the trick by one season. Scott's first year on the team at UNC was 1997-98, the season after Dean Smith retired.

[sagegrouse]

Dave Sime DID play football for Duke -- he started several games at Lonesome End.

If you go to his Wikipedia entry, you'll see where it talks about Sime catching a TD pass early in the 1958 Duke-Notre Dame game ... then catching a second TD pass on Duke's next possession and drawing triple coverage from that point on.

That's totally bogus (imagine, something on the internet that's wrong!) -- to begin with, Notre Dame won that game 9-7 ... and the one Duke touchdown came early in the game on a four-yard pass from QB Bob Brodhead to HB Dane Lee.

.

Sime had really caught the public imagination because of his track exploits. I can remember an AP bulletin that Sime, who had just joined the football team, would not accompany the Blue Devils to Notre Dame.

I can also remember a story 15 years or so later, commenting that Sime, who use to work out with the Dolphins when he was an eye surgeon in Miami, was the fastest guy on the field. IIRC he was at least 35. I didn't know him well, but he was very quiet and unassuming.

[Reilly]

... Dean, Boeheim, Knight, Chaney, Olson off the top of my head.

Anybody ever do it for Ray Meyer at DePaul?


... Roy Williams and his son, Scott, missed pulling off the trick by one season. Scott's first year on the team at UNC was 1997-98, the season after Dean Smith retired.

Did Roy ever play for Dean? I thought Roy only played JV.

[Jim3k]

Dave Sime DID play football for Duke -- he started several games at Lonesome End.

I don't think that's quite right. When Sage and I came to Duke in the Fall of 1960, T Moorman was being featured as the first "swing" end and the sports information folks observed that never before had Duke used an end quite that way. Murray did point to the Army "lonesome end" as the genesis of the concept, but distinguished it because (among other things) Duke's swing end would talk to the quarterback (Altman or Rappold) before trotting to whatever side he was supposed to. Blaik created the lonesome end ("far flanker") for the 1958 season. That player never came to the huddle. Instead, Army used signals to tell him what to do. I'm pretty sure Murray's "Duke T" had never before featured a permanent flanker like that, much less one that ran routes based on signals, like Army's Bill Carpenter did in 1958 and 1959. [Carpenter played during the 1957, 58 and 59 seasons.] Oly, you have Sime doing that on Duke's 1958 squad. Sime no doubt lined up as a wide receiver that season to take advantage of his speed, but it was not as a "lonesome" one. Plus, Murray didn't have time to change his offense in 1958 as Army's new formation became known.

[Olympic Fan]

I don't think that's quite right. When Sage and I came to Duke in the Fall of 1960, T Moorman was being featured as the first "swing" end and the sports information folks observed that never before had Duke used an end quite that way. Murray did point to the Army "lonesome end" as the genesis of the concept, but distinguished it because (among other things) Duke's swing end would talk to the quarterback (Altman or Rappold) before trotting to whatever side he was supposed to. Blaik created the lonesome end ("far flanker") for the 1958 season. That player never came to the huddle. Instead, Army used signals to tell him what to do. I'm pretty sure Murray's "Duke T" had never before featured a permanent flanker like that, much less one that ran routes based on signals, like Army's Bill Carpenter did in 1958 and 1959. [Carpenter played during the 1957, 58 and 59 seasons.] Oly, you have Sime doing that on Duke's 1958 squad. Sime no doubt lined up as a wide receiver that season to take advantage of his speed, but it was not as a "lonesome" one. Plus, Murray didn't have time to change his offense in 1958 as Army's new formation became known.

I thought I was right about this ... and I'm pretty sure I am.

First, I didn't say he played Lonesome end in 1958 -- the bogus Wiki entry did. I thought Sime played in 1959 ... but check out this newspaper account from the Eugene Oregon paper in October of 1958:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=19581008&id=k_RVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=cuIDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5906,1359807

It reports that Sime has joined the Duke football team as the Lonesome End -- just weeks after Carpenter made his debut as the Lonesome End for Army in a victory over South Carolina.

You get the same story from the Oct. 8, 1958 Wilmington Star:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1454&dat=19581008&id=71pgAAAAIBAJ&sjid=m3ENAAAAIBAJ&pg=656,1277081

Duke also lists him as the Lonesome End in his bio on goduke:

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=220802

I think your confusion stems from Bill Murray's radical transformation after the 1959 season. No. he didn't change his offense in 1958 -- he merely turned his split end into a Lonesome End. In his first decade at Duke, Murray ran a conservative, run-oriented offense that put little emphasis on the forward pass. Heck, Sonny Jurgenson never threw 70 passes in a season. And most of the completions in the '50s were to backs coming out of the backfield (Bernie Blaney, Wray Carlton twice, Joel Arrington all led Duke in receiving).

That all changed in 1960. Disappointed by his '59 team that finished 4-6 (with a season ending 50-0 loss to UNC), Murray installed a modern passing game in 1960 with quarterbacks Don Altman and Walt Rappold doing most of the throwing (Gil Garner also played at QB, but he was mostly a defensive specialist). Tee Moorman, who had inherited the Lonesome End role, caught 54 passes and won All-American honors (nobody else had ever caught more than 20 passes for Murray and that was Howard Pitt in 1952).

But Dave Sime was Duke's first Lonesome End ... although he was used more as a decoy than a real target.

[BD80]

Anybody ever do it for Ray Meyer at DePaul? ...

Well, some of their players played for both the father and son.

[Jim3k]

I don't put much stock in that October 1958 AP story--note the 'warning' quotation marks, a nod to Carpenter at Army. (Not sure what to say about the GoDuke bio except to note that it was written in 2005.)

You actually made the point: Decoy. If Sime was called a "lonesome end" with any seriousness, it was either form over substance or a witty crack referencing Carpenter. Maybe we can get Sage in on this; he may have written the Chronicle stories I read about Moorman as he got credited with originating that type of role at Duke.

Besides, I am a long way from being confused about what happened.

[I was only carrying the touchdown cannon (scuffle at South Carolina).]

[devil84]

In the front page piece, it's mentioned that Winslow's dad was part of Houston's Phi Slamma Jamma, and Jeter's dad was on the UNLV 1990 team. I hadn't really thought about it previously, but K has been coaching at Duke long enough that his players' kids are well old enough to have played for him too. I think it would have to be incredibly rare for a father and son to play for the same coach at the same school.


As far as I know this hasn't happened. At Duke it hasn't, but has it happened at another school?
Have there been any sons of players that have even been on the Duke's recruiting radar?



There aren't going to be many years that guys that played for him have male children old enough to be in college. I was a part of his first four teams. My kids are 23 and 25. Some of the guys older than me (which account for 3 classes) have children younger than mine -- as in they just now starting college (and younger).

Just for funsies, I did some math (always entertaining for those watching me do math). The average age of first time fathers in the late 80s was around 25 (I can't find any stats that identify those with college degrees, but most sources indicate that the average age is older for those that have a degree). That means that players that played in his first class likely averaged at least 3-4 years to have a child, then needed at least 18-19 more to get them to college age. Let's split the difference, and say 22 years from graduation. With K having 33 graduating classes, that's 11 possible graduating classes that can produce college-age kids. That's about 36 players from the years '81-'92 that MIGHT have kids old enough, assuming that: A) they had any children, and B) they did so at around age 25 (and many waited far longer, but offset a little by guys who had kids at an earlier age).

Let's say that children average out to one per player (some having 2 or more, others having none), so, let's say 36 kids. Half of those are probably girls, which is 18 potential boys (more or less). How many of those boys like playing basketball enough to try out for their high school team? (My son didn't!) Even if they liked it and made their high school team, how many were good enough to be recruited by DI colleges? By elite DI colleges? Antonio Lang's son was a brief target. Johnny Dawkins' son is a frosh at Michigan this year -- he'd have to be awfully good to beat out one of our four frosh this year AND he'd have to be willing to live in his father's shadow, which could be a deal breaker for many kids. There are some big names in those years: Alarie, Amaker, Banks, Bilas, Johnny Dawkins, Dennard, Billy King, Laettner, and Snyder, to name a few -- and at least 3 of those have sons that aren't old enough yet (two have sons that are freshman this year). Of the guys of my era, Coach K's first four years, I think there may only be a handful of offspring older than my youngest; most that I know are just now starting college, and many are too young to think about high school varsity sports yet.

I guess what I'm saying is that your premise that he has enough players that are old enough to have college-age kids may not really be all that true.

Besides, in 34 years, K has only coached about 100 players...what are the chances that of those 100 players, they have a son that is both academically and athletically gifted enough to play at Duke who wouldn't mind being compared to his dad while he plays?

[sagegrouse]

I don't put much stock in that October 1958 AP story--note the 'warning' quotation marks, a nod to Carpenter at Army. (Not sure what to say about the GoDuke bio except to note that it was written in 2005.)

You actually made the point: Decoy. If Sime was called a "lonesome end" with any seriousness, it was either form over substance or a witty crack referencing Carpenter. Maybe we can get Sage in on this; he may have written the Chronicle stories I read about Moorman as he got credited with originating that type of role at Duke.

Besides, I am a long way from being confused about what happened.

[I was only carrying the touchdown cannon (scuffle at South Carolina).]

Jim, "lonesome end" was the generic term for a wide receiver, in that it was an end spread wide, who did not go the huddle for play calling. "Wide receiver" came into use later. Personal knowledge of 1957? Are you kidding? I was in high school elsewhere. I didn't do sports at the Chronicle, although I went to every home game and most of the away Big Four games and wore coat and tie at almost every one. I only missed one basketball home game in four years -- we had a kegger that PM and I was on the DL for that evening.

[Jim3k]

Jim, "lonesome end" was the generic term for a wide receiver, in that it was an end spread wide, who did not go the huddle for play calling.

We are all three in agreement that the lonesome end did not return to the huddle. Not sure if it was 'generic' in that only Army was using it in 1958, officially calling that position "far flanker." It was the sports media that called Carpenter "lonesome." However, Dwight Bumgarner eschewed "swing end" for "lonesome end" to describe Moorman in the Cotton Bowl 50 year anniversary interview (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=205012526) at GoDuke. "Generic term" for such a position is probably accurate now--but not as early as 1958. Carpenter owned it then.


"Wide receiver" came into use later.

In agreement with this, too. Murray's "Duke T" was a combination single wing with unbalanced line and QB under center with a tailback and a fullback. Duke had 'wingbacks' and 'slot-backs' depending on where the fourth back lined up and what the end did. It was essentially a wing-T offense with an unbalanced line. Moorman simply took the formation really wide to spread the defense and unbalance it further. He also blocked on sweeps. At 6-3, 210, he was pretty big for a split end in those days.



Personal knowledge of 1957? Are you kidding? I was in high school elsewhere.

Phtttt! Always understood. I was in high school in 1957, too, but that's not what I was asking about. I just wanted to know if you remembered what the flacks were saying about Moorman's role as the originator of the position at Duke in 1960.


I didn't do sports at the Chronicle, although I went to every home game and most of the away Big Four games and wore coat and tie at almost every one. I only missed one basketball home game in four years -- we had a kegger that PM and I was on the DL for that evening.

I can't remember missing a home game, football or basketball, during our time from 1960-1964. My grades showed it. I can confirm you were always among the best-dressed.

[Reilly]

... Heck, Sonny Jurgenson ...

Jurgensen


We are all three in agreement that the lonesome end did not return to the huddle. Not sure if it was 'generic' in that only Army was using it in 1958, officially calling that position "far flanker." It was the sports media that called Carpenter "lonesome." However, Dwight Bumgarner eschewed "swing end" for "lonesome end" to describe Moorman in the Cotton Bowl ...

I'm looking forward to 2055, when sports historians debate when/how the pioneering Ted Roof introduced the "Devilback" position to modern college football, and Ronnie Drummer ....

[jimsumner]

Dave Sime's son Scott played football for Duke in the early 1980s.

Johnny Dawkins' son Aubrey signed with Michigan. I do not recall Duke recruiting him.

Mark Alarie's daughter Isabella is a high-school junior and is getting some ACC attention.

Speaking of the Buckleys, Jay's brother Bruce played for UNC. Collectively, Jay, Bruce and Clay have seven Final Fours and respectively played for Vic Bubas, Dean Smith and Mike Krzyzewski.

[Tom B.]

Did Roy ever play for Dean? I thought Roy only played JV.




D'oh, you're right. I should've remembered that. My bad.

[madscavenger]

But it has happened at Duke, Clay Buckey is the son of Jay Buckley. Clay played for Coach K while Jay played for Coach Bubas.

Do Patrick and Jordan Davidson count?

And as budwom said, Gary and Lee Melchionni.

[madscavenger]

Do Patrick and Jordan Davidson count? ..................................



They should. Heck, Patrick could do anything, so its not out of the question that he time traveled and created a baby Jordan at a rest stop or something (apologies to anyone who doesn't understand the Patrick mystique.......but its all true; i swear it).

.

[burnspbesq]

They should. Heck, Patrick could do anything, so its not out of the question that he time traveled and created a baby Jordan at a rest stop or something (apologies to anyone who doesn't understand the Patrick mystique.......but its all true; i swear it).

.

It is a well-known fact that Patrick Davidson traveled back in time and fathered Myles Jones.

[Olympic Fan]

We are all three in agreement that the lonesome end did not return to the huddle. Not sure if it was 'generic' in that only Army was using it in 1958, officially calling that position "far flanker." It was the sports media that called Carpenter "lonesome." However, Dwight Bumgarner eschewed "swing end" for "lonesome end" to describe Moorman in the Cotton Bowl 50 year anniversary interview (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=205012526) at GoDuke. "Generic term" for such a position is probably accurate now--but not as early as 1958. Carpenter owned it then.

Not true ... Blaik did come up with the concept and Carpenter was the first, but in researching this issue (you guys got me interested), it's obvious that the concept exploded in the fall of 1958 -- within a month of Army using the concept, dozens of schools had stolen the Lonesome End idea.

The reason is that part of the concept is so simple -- 80/90 percent of the nation's college teams in that era ran some variation of the T formation that had 10 players lined up tight with one split end/wide end/flanker out wide. As soon as word of what Blaik was doing was reported, dozens of coaches -- including Murray -- had an 'ah ha' moment. It was so simple -- they didn't have to change anything -- just leave your wide receiver out wide between plays and you could increase the tempo of your offense and not wear your wide receiver out by running him back and forth to the huddle (remember, in that era, you could not substitute between plays, so on a long drive, your wide end could wear himself out just running to and from the huddle).

Read the newspapers from that fall -- the article I linked earlier about Sime is one of many. Within a month of the Army-South Carolina game, dozens and dozens of colleges were using the "Lonesome End" ... some imitators called it the "Lonely End". But by midseason, it was widespread nationally. It was a sexy (and easy) thing to do.

The question is -- were all those imitators actually imitating Blaik's offense -- or just his formation? At Army, the Lonesome End was an integral part of Blaik's offense. Note -- 1958 was the year when Army halfback Pete Dawkins -- not Carpenter -- won the Heisman, Much of his success was a function of what Blaik was doing with Carpenter.

I doubt that many of the schools that copied "The Lonesome End" in 1958 actually altered their offense to take advantage of the concept. I know Murray didn't -- he stole the idea of leaving his end out wide and not returning to the huddle ... he even told the press that Dave Sime was going to be his Lonesome End ... but he didn't change the offense he had run all decade. He still relied on the ground game and throwing short passes to backs out of the backfield.

As I posted earlier, he used Sime as a decoy.

It wasn't until 1960 when Murray changed his offense to make his Lonesome End a real part of his offense. Tee Moorman became an All-American playing Lonesome End

But he wasn't Duke's FIRST Lonesome End -- Dave Sime was.

[BD80]

Not true ... Blaik did come up with the concept and Carpenter was the first, but in researching this issue (you guys got me interested), it's obvious that the concept exploded in the fall of 1958 -- within a month of Army using the concept, dozens of schools had stolen the Lonesome End idea. ...

Really? Both Al Gore and john calipari claim to have invented it.