PDA

View Full Version : Atlanta Hawks Majority Owner to Sell Team Due to racist email



Pages : 1 [2]

Duke_92
09-12-2014, 03:35 PM
An Atlanta TV station obtained the scouting report. (http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/news/documents/2014/09/12/LuolDeng.pdf) It does look like Ferry was paraphrasing the comments from some source in Cleveland, which is reassuring. Still poor judgment of Ferry's part to pass it along, but it's better than if it were his own sentiments.

This guy from the Cleveland front office seems like a charmer, though.


The report says that Deng has a sense of entitlement. Glad to see that his one year at Duke made an impression on him;) I feel that we are entitled to another title or two this year!

Owen Meany
09-12-2014, 03:45 PM
Danny Ferry takes an indefinite leave of absence[/URL]

[url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/atlanta-hawks-gm-danny-ferry-takes-indefinite-leave-of-absence-after-racially-charged-comments/2014/09/12/0910d10c-3abb-11e4-a023-1d61f7f31a05_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/atlanta-hawks-gm-danny-ferry-takes-indefinite-leave-of-absence-after-racially-charged-comments/2014/09/12/0910d10c-3abb-11e4-a023-1d61f7f31a05_story.html)

muzikfrk75
09-12-2014, 03:53 PM
YES. The whole point, as others have said, is suggesting that "African" and "duplicitous" are synonyms. And if you don't think there is a racial component when someone speaks casually of Africans, if you think "he has a little African in him" is intended to encompass Afrikaners and the former power structure of Rhodesia, then you have not been encountering the same people I have who speak casually of Africans.

Exactly. I don't why this is so hard for some to understand.

Reisen
09-12-2014, 03:54 PM
I remember reading an article several years ago about the hostility and racism directed toward Asian Russians by the white Russian majority. The article mentioned a hateful commercial that had aired on behalf of one of the ultra-right-wing political parties. In the commercial, a couple of conspicuously unemployed, somewhat overweight Central Asian men are sitting on a curb. An attractive blonde walks by, and they leer disgustingly at her. So far, unremarkable. Any country with a white power structure on Planet Earth has some bigot embroidering a similar cartoon attacking the race or ethnic group associated with that country's underclass right now. But here's what amazed me: the two dudes sitting on the curb are eating watermelon. Watermelon! We are truly in an age of bigotry without borders when an insult that would seemingly be intelligible only in the American South can be translated without comment to the former USSR. Incredible.

All of which is to say that while "two-faced" may be a slur all over the world against all sorts of cultures, it only proves that bigotry has a fairly limited palette from which to work.

This strikes me as incredibly myopic. Specifically "Any country with a white power structure on Planet Earth has some bigot embroidering a similar cartoon attacking the race or ethnic group associated with that country's underclass right now." How is that any different than saying "Any city with lots of black elected officials has someone embezzling taxpayer money right now"? Do you really believe that white skinned people or cultures hold a monopoly on bigotry?

While your story of Russia is spot on (lots of issues of racism in that culture), having spent a lot of time living and traveling outside the US, I can promise that racism / bigotry / class prejudice is by no means correlated with white power structure. A couple of examples:

- My wife's family lived in Singapore for 7 years, and I spent a couple of weeks there every year. Singapore's treatment of minorities would shock most Americans and Europeans. I won't get into the living conditions of Malaysian / Filipino construction workers, but suffice it to say, they are poor. The treatment of Filipino maids by ethnically Chinese Singaporeans was unbelievable. Passports are withheld, and Singaporean citizens are forbidden to marry Malaysians or Filipino immigrants.

- Along the same lines, we have a number of friends that are Thai, as well as American friends living in Thailand. We have visited numerous times, and have seen firsthand that Thai treatment of Burmese or Laotian minorities is pretty bad. Heck, southern Thai treatment of northern Thais is pretty bad.

- My wife and I have traveled pretty extensively in Africa. Senegal, Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Burkina-Faso, Niger, Ivory Coast, and South Africa. I was amazed to see how much ethnic prejudice there is within the African continent, both from North Africans against Sub-Saharan Africans (South Sudan, anyone?), as well as from black South Africans against Tanzanians and Nigerians. Think of the depiction of the Nigerian gangsters in District 9. Also, South Africa has a considerable South-Asian minority that has often complained of poor treatment by blacks and whites alike.

- While I haven't spent time in the middle East, my wife has. The treatment of Asian guest workers in places like Dubai or Abu Dhabi is well documented (think maids again).

- While I haven't visited, I know enough about South Asia to know they have their own issues with prejudice, based on race / ethnicity / national origin / class. That can include India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, etc.

The whole issue with the comments Ferry echoed was they unfairly stereotyped a group (in this case, Africans). IMO, associating any country ruled by people with white skin with bigotry is not much better. Humans naturally form tribes, whether by blood, skin color, religion, artificially drawn national lines, culture, etc. Viewing another "tribe" as inferior, or associating a negative characteristic with them is as old as time. I believe we should judge people by their actions (including Luol Deng), not by their tribe.

Karl Beem
09-12-2014, 03:55 PM
Man, do I hate it that LeBron went back to Cleveland. That franchise, from its predatory loaning owner down through its rewarded-for-serial-incompetence front office history, its apparently racist scouting department, and its beyond childish and vengeful fanbase, is just awful. It's a real statement about the cesspool that is the American sporting scene that the Cavs aren't even in the conversation for Most Unlikable Franchise.

:rolleyes: Wow, what a saintly post!

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
09-12-2014, 03:58 PM
According to ESPN Ferry is taking a leave of absence.

Owen Meany
09-12-2014, 04:15 PM
If you listen to the portion of the audio that is released, after the Carmello comments, its distorted and difficult to hear. And importantly, there is a clear audible beep between the Carmello section and the rest. I assume this is where the tape has been stopped and restarted. But I think Ferry says "I actually like... you know, you asked about, I talked about Channing Fry, Boros Diaw, Thefolosha, Loul Deng ummm Greg Mornroe, Pau Gasol. I mean, I have, you know, if you want Loul Deng, for example, Michael can talk a little bit more about him, ah, the rap on him is a little bit, umm, that he's not as torn up as you think, umm... and he goes into the part everyone is familiar with. After the bit about the storefront he adds "if that makes any sense".

In retrospect, having seen the report, and listening very carefully to the audio, it seems that Ferry is asked for some information. He says has already talked about several players before, including Deng. He says (in response to what was asked?) "I have, you know, if you want Loul Deng for example...the rap on him is". It seems to me he has been asked to provide the negatives for the players. "I have...Loul Deng" I assume refers to his scouting report. And offers "he's not perfect" at one point, which seems to acknowledge some strong positives we have not heard. It also seems he is reading the report as he says, umm, umm, and his thoughts follow different phrases from the report. And he follows the controversial statement with "if that makes any sense".

lotusland
09-12-2014, 04:35 PM
I remember reading an article several years ago about the hostility and racism directed toward Asian Russians by the white Russian majority. The article mentioned a hateful commercial that had aired on behalf of one of the ultra-right-wing political parties. In the commercial, a couple of conspicuously unemployed, somewhat overweight Central Asian men are sitting on a curb. An attractive blonde walks by, and they leer disgustingly at her. So far, unremarkable. Any country with a white power structure on Planet Earth has some bigot embroidering a similar cartoon attacking the race or ethnic group associated with that country's underclass right now. But here's what amazed me: the two dudes sitting on the curb are eating watermelon. Watermelon! We are truly in an age of bigotry without borders when an insult that would seemingly be intelligible only in the American South can be translated without comment to the former USSR. Incredible.

All of which is to say that while "two-faced" may be a slur all over the world against all sorts of cultures, it only proves that bigotry has a fairly limited palette from which to work.

Lot's of rules to remember apparently if you want to stay on top of who's offended by who and why. As best I can tell I'm always in the offender group and other groups can rotate from minor offender to victim but never achieve primary offender status. What if all the victims one day just get tired of being perpetual victims? What will we do with our guilt?

This I know - the Africans referred to were not the white dudes but they also were not the African Americans. So if you want to perform some mental gymnastics in order to wring your hands about racism please carry on but it doesn't hold water imo. For the life of me I do not see how Deng feels better if he's politely called disingenuous without the African reference . If anything the statement excused the behavior due to culture. Without the African reference he's just a guy you can't trust to be straight with you.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
09-12-2014, 05:02 PM
Lot's of rules to remember apparently if you want to stay on top of who's offended by who and why. As best I can tell I'm always in the offender group and other groups can rotate from minor offender to victim but never achieve primary offender status. What if all the victims one day just get tired of being perpetual victims? What will we do with our guilt?

This I know - the Africans referred to were not the white dudes but they also were not the African Americans. So if you want to perform some mental gymnastics in order to wring your hands about racism please carry on but it doesn't hold water imo. For the life of me I do not see how Deng feels better if he's politely called disingenuous without the African reference . If anything the statement excused the behavior due to culture. Without the African reference he's just a guy you can't trust to be straight with you.

So, you are continuing to contest Deng's right to be offended? You must be fun at parties.

I find it mesmerizing that you have chosen to make a name for yourself on this board as the only person who thinks that Ferry has nothing to apologize for. I do believe that you are sincere in your inability to understand why Deng would be offended, because you are so ardent in your defense.

I assume that if Deng were definitely not "two-faced," that would would agree that saying "Deng is African, therefore he is two-faced" would be transparently offensive. So, you must agree that he IS two-faced, and therefore it is just an observation, not prejudice.

How about this.... let's pretend for a moment that I were illiterate. Now, given that being assumed as true, and you said "Mountain Devil is illiterate, so don't hire him" that would be a statement of fact and not offensive to me at all. If, instead, "Mountain Devil is from southern Appalachia, therefore he probably can't even read. Don't hire him." then would I have a right to be offended?

Just trying to understand your internal rules of when I get to be offended.

I am glad Ferry is getting some time off. I imagine he will make good use of it and will refocus on things when he returns, with or without the Hawks.

dukebluesincebirth
09-12-2014, 05:19 PM
Interesting that there's so much discussion/debate/arguing on DBR about this topic, but no thread on the Ray Rice/ Roger Goodell NFL saga. And now a new, very disturbing story being reported on Adrian Peterson. Bad week in the sports world.

freshmanjs
09-12-2014, 05:20 PM
Interesting that there's so much discussion/debate/arguing on DBR about this topic, but no thread on the Ray Rice/ Roger Goodell NFL saga. And now a new, very disturbing story being reported on Adrian Peterson. Bad week in the sports world.

why is that interesting? neither of those stories have much to do with Duke.

dukebluesincebirth
09-12-2014, 05:26 PM
I get that Danny and Luol are both former Dukies... I guess it's just that most of what I've read on this thread doesn't have much to do with Duke.

lotusland
09-12-2014, 05:29 PM
So, you are continuing to contest Deng's right to be offended? You must be fun at parties.

I find it mesmerizing that you have chosen to make a name for yourself on this board as the only person who thinks that Ferry has nothing to apologize for. I do believe that you are sincere in your inability to understand why Deng would be offended, because you are so ardent in your defense.

I assume that if Deng were definitely not "two-faced," that would would agree that saying "Deng is African, therefore he is two-faced" would be transparently offensive. So, you must agree that he IS two-faced, and therefore it is just an observation, not prejudice.

How about this.... let's pretend for a moment that I were illiterate. Now, given that being assumed as true, and you said "Mountain Devil is illiterate, so don't hire him" that would be a statement of fact and not offensive to me at all. If, instead, "Mountain Devil is from southern Appalachia, therefore he probably can't even read. Don't hire him." then would I have a right to be offended?

Just trying to understand your internal rules of when I get to be offended.

I am glad Ferry is getting some time off. I imagine he will make good use of it and will refocus on things when he returns, with or without the Hawks.

You have not been paying attention. I've said repeatedly that anyone can be offended anytime they like. I don't see the point and don't bother with it myself as I just don't like to think of myself as a victim and really can'y get worked up about what someone says who I don't even even know. My derision is not aimed at Deng but rather all of you who are offended on his behalf. Still waiting on a answer as to how Deng is better off being labeled not a stand up dude without the African reference.

Des Esseintes
09-12-2014, 05:56 PM
This strikes me as incredibly myopic. Specifically "Any country with a white power structure on Planet Earth has some bigot embroidering a similar cartoon attacking the race or ethnic group associated with that country's underclass right now." How is that any different than saying "Any city with lots of black elected officials has someone embezzling taxpayer money right now"? Do you really believe that white skinned people or cultures hold a monopoly on bigotry?

I reread the post you are referencing, and I realized I was unclear. I don't for a second think whites have a corner on bigotry. I meant that this particular slur, that dark-skinned minorities in various countries are accused of sloth and sexual violence, is common. I am in full agreement that pernicious racism is to be found in every community.

cspan37421
09-12-2014, 06:13 PM
by the way, what does it mean to say someone acts like a lawyer in the locker room?

cato
09-12-2014, 06:15 PM
by the way, what does it mean to say someone acts like a lawyer in the locker room?

Nothing good, that's for sure.

lotusland
09-12-2014, 06:19 PM
Nothing good, that's for sure.

Well then lawyers should be outraged.

GDT
09-12-2014, 06:19 PM
You have not been paying attention. I've said repeatedly that anyone can be offended anytime they like. I don't see the point and don't bother with it myself...

I think everyone's been paying attention to you, more than your logic, typing and grammar deserve. I've been around for a reasonably long time and have never been modded or warned but...if you want to double down on the dufus, I'll be happy to take the hit.

As a professional (IT Director, lawyer), it beggars my belief that an intelligent, well-educated person like Danny Ferry would say such a thing in a business meeting. Irrespective of whether he was reading a report (unless he was appearing in a Mamet play), you simply would never say that. You wouldn't read an analysis that a player nickles and dimes you and say he might be a secret Jew. You just report that in the past, some teams felt Deng was willing to say one thing and do another, behind the scenes. Or whatever it was he was supposed to have done. It doesn't make him the worst person in the world, but, it is terribly confusing to me. And maybe, it's because this kind of talk takes place in these boardrooms as a matter of course. It becomes the norm rather than an outrage. Recent events suggest that it's certainly possible and it is an insidious step you take when you laugh feebly at such a jape for the first time.

I loved Ferry as a player, I paid someone to send me a VHS tape of the 58-point game in '88 and loved every second - he was sublime. I think it's more that such thoughts seem to be normal in the NBA, and that he gave in that bothers me so much.

As for offense, I support your pledge to not be personally offended. However, that doesn't mean mouldering things hidden under conference tables and Gucci briefcases shouldn't see the light of day. It's not just about you.

OldSchool
09-12-2014, 06:52 PM
I think everyone's been paying attention to you, more than your logic, typing and grammar deserve. I've been around for a reasonably long time and have never been modded or warned but...if you want to double down on the dufus, I'll be happy to take the hit.

As a professional (IT Director, lawyer), it beggars my belief that an intelligent, well-educated person like Danny Ferry would say such a thing in a business meeting. Irrespective of whether he was reading a report (unless he was appearing in a Mamet play), you simply would never say that. You wouldn't read an analysis that a player nickles and dimes you and say he might be a secret Jew. You just report that in the past, some teams felt Deng was willing to say one thing and do another, behind the scenes. Or whatever it was he was supposed to have done. It doesn't make him the worst person in the world, but, it is terribly confusing to me. And maybe, it's because this kind of talk takes place in these boardrooms as a matter of course. It becomes the norm rather than an outrage. Recent events suggest that it's certainly possible and it is an insidious step you take when you laugh feebly at such a jape for the first time.

I loved Ferry as a player, I paid someone to send me a VHS tape of the 58-point game in '88 and loved every second - he was sublime. I think it's more that such thoughts seem to be normal in the NBA, and that he gave in that bothers me so much.

As for offense, I support your pledge to not be personally offended. However, that doesn't mean mouldering things hidden under conference tables and Gucci briefcases shouldn't see the light of day. It's not just about you.

The comment originated with a crude and inarticulate basketball scout, was stupidly repeated by Ferry on a conference call, whereupon it immediately drew from the other participants on the call gasps of shock and references to Donald Sterling and TMZ.

So from this, you conclude that ethnic slurs are a matter of course in corporate boardrooms? Talk about a leap.

sagegrouse
09-12-2014, 07:04 PM
by the way, what does it mean to say someone acts like a lawyer in the locker room?

It's a variant on the World War II epithet -- "barracks lawyer." This was a soldier who knew all the Army rules and regs and could find an excuse to get out of anything by quoting some obscure reference. He also would use such knowledge to stir up dissension among the troops. Uhhh.... not a team player.

I got this definition directly from Sad Sack and Sgt. Bilko.

SoCalDukeFan
09-12-2014, 07:19 PM
I think Ferry should have been careful, He also can not use the excuse of someone else's words, as I believe he would not have say parroted the N word if that is the report. And in the wake of the Donald Sterling case, all the more reason to be careful.

I do wonder if as a society we are over sensitive. A few years ago I was in a large business meeting and a speaker said something did not have a Chinamen's chance of success. I did not notice it at the time but he was called on the carpet for the remark.

Anyhow, Ferry is taking a leaving of absence.

SoCal

sagegrouse
09-12-2014, 07:32 PM
You have not been paying attention. I've said repeatedly that anyone can be offended anytime they like. I don't see the point and don't bother with it myself as I just don't like to think of myself as a victim and really can'y get worked up about what someone says who I don't even even know. My derision is not aimed at Deng but rather all of you who are offended on his behalf. Still waiting on a answer as to how Deng is better off being labeled not a stand up dude without the African reference.

Lessee.... "Derogatory speech," "hateful" characterizations of groups, when occurring in the workplace and directed against minorities or members of minorites are often against the law. Moreover, every HR professional and most company managers get a good dose of do's and don't's in nondiscrimination practices and often get training to be more sensitive to the feelings of minority groups. I believe the Atlanta Hawks and the NBA are covered by such statutes. Moreover, there is a player workforce which is majority of African descent and a very active NBA Players' Association.

Your personal feelings -- and mine -- are utterly irrelevant to the rights and wrongs of the matter at hand. I believe most posters and readers of this thread will agree with the above. Why don't you give it a rest?

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
09-12-2014, 09:22 PM
You have not been paying attention. I've said repeatedly that anyone can be offended anytime they like. I don't see the point and don't bother with it myself as I just don't like to think of myself as a victim and really can'y get worked up about what someone says who I don't even even know. My derision is not aimed at Deng but rather all of you who are offended on his behalf. Still waiting on a answer as to how Deng is better off being labeled not a stand up dude without the African reference.

It isn't a question of "better off." You and I could have a conversation betwixt the two of us in which, for instance, you might use offensive language regarding a third party. The third party is not harmed, but your choice of words is still offensive and unfortunate.

"All of you who are offended on his behalf" aren't necessarily progressive nutbags. We just recognize poor word choice when we hear it,

And believe you me, most or all of us would love to exonerate Ferry; we have loved him for decades. But, the language doesn't pass the straight face test.

I will give you that the recent pdf which seems to include Ferry's words verbatim does seem to exonerate him to a degree, but you aren't even agruing that.

You are arguing the most offensive of points: the suggestion that SOME Africans are two-faced, therefore any African should be considered two-faced. This is the definition of prejudiced thinking, that generalizations based on a small sample size equal an over generalization emcompassing the totality. It is offensive to all of us, whether or not we share Deng's heritage or background, and YOU DO NOT GET TO TELL ME NOT TO BE OFFENDED. You say you aren't telling mt not to be offended, and then in the next breath degegrate those of us who ae offended on his behalf.

Look, all of us wish Ferry was in the clear on this. There has been lots of evidence on both sides of the ledger in the past 72 hours. But even the staunchest Ferry fan (lots on this board!) would acknowledge poor decision-making on his part. Except you.

Please, I beg you, explain your stance more clearly, because I am tempted to try and find an "ignore" button on this board for the first time in my nearly ten years of browsing and seven years of posting.

If I were an esteemed moderator, I would be looking for a way to silence you. Instead, I defer to their wisdom and hope you come around.

One last time I say: you do not get to decide who is or is not offended by language.

I truly hope that Ferry makes amends for his mistakes. I would hope that nearly 30 years of relationships would assist him in that. If it turns out that the next chapter of his career is not with the Hawks, he may consider himself quite lucky.

I am still cynical enough to see this all as a power and money play. The owner was getting pressure based on his email, and he sae an opportunity to cash out. His partner saw a chance to double-down and force out Ferry. Ferry made his own bed and must lie in it. No one comes out looking sharp, that's for sure.

HK Dukie
09-12-2014, 10:32 PM
After comparing the scouting report with Ferry's audio, it is evident that Ferry was sourcing the 'African' comments from the report. Additionally modified the language slightly to make it seem just a little bit less offensive and added qualifiers. So to his credit he tried to soften the statement. His mistake was that he should have used a different analogy altogether and that it is not enough to just slightly soften the offensive language.

In light of the evidence that the scouting report did contain the offensive language Ferry was summarizing, and furthermore since he qualified the language a bit, I believe Ferry survives this. Maybe a new owner hires his own GM afterall, (earlier I suggested after the audio that if I were a new owner I would ask him to leave for business reasons), but the new GM should give Ferry a long look because he has done a great job for the Hawks. He is a good guy. He made a mistake and I'm sure he will do the right things now to make up for it and then some.

Part I - Levenson
Part II - Ferry
Part III - Cleveland (couldn't happen to a 'better' organization)

jacone21
09-12-2014, 10:50 PM
Ek weet hoekom die PPB raad dood.

throatybeard
09-12-2014, 11:59 PM
Interesting that there's so much discussion/debate/arguing on DBR about this topic, but no thread on the Ray Rice/ Roger Goodell NFL saga. And now a new, very disturbing story being reported on Adrian Peterson. Bad week in the sports world.

Yes. Man, this is baad baad baad. And this one I didn't see coming.

throatybeard
09-13-2014, 12:01 AM
IA few years ago I was in a large business meeting and a speaker said something did not have a Chinamen's chance of success. I did not notice it at the time but he was called on the carpet for the remark.

Good. Good on whoever did the calling.

lotusland
09-13-2014, 07:32 AM
It isn't a question of "better off." You and I could have a conversation betwixt the two of us in which, for instance, you might use offensive language regarding a third party. The third party is not harmed, but your choice of words is still offensive and unfortunate.

"All of you who are offended on his behalf" aren't necessarily progressive nutbags. We just recognize poor word choice when we hear it,

And believe you me, most or all of us would love to exonerate Ferry; we have loved him for decades. But, the language doesn't pass the straight face test.

I will give you that the recent pdf which seems to include Ferry's words verbatim does seem to exonerate him to a degree, but you aren't even agruing that.

You are arguing the most offensive of points: the suggestion that SOME Africans are two-faced, therefore any African should be considered two-faced. This is the definition of prejudiced thinking, that generalizations based on a small sample size equal an over generalization emcompassing the totality. It is offensive to all of us, whether or not we share Deng's heritage or background, and YOU DO NOT GET TO TELL ME NOT TO BE OFFENDED. You say you aren't telling mt not to be offended, and then in the next breath degegrate those of us who ae offended on his behalf.

Look, all of us wish Ferry was in the clear on this. There has been lots of evidence on both sides of the ledger in the past 72 hours. But even the staunchest Ferry fan (lots on this board!) would acknowledge poor decision-making on his part. Except you.

Please, I beg you, explain your stance more clearly, because I am tempted to try and find an "ignore" button on this board for the first time in my nearly ten years of browsing and seven years of posting.

If I were an esteemed moderator, I would be looking for a way to silence you. Instead, I defer to their wisdom and hope you come around.

One last time I say: you do not get to decide who is or is not offended by language.

I truly hope that Ferry makes amends for his mistakes. I would hope that nearly 30 years of relationships would assist him in that. If it turns out that the next chapter of his career is not with the Hawks, he may consider himself quite lucky.

I am still cynical enough to see this all as a power and money play. The owner was getting pressure based on his email, and he sae an opportunity to cash out. His partner saw a chance to double-down and force out Ferry. Ferry made his own bed and must lie in it. No one comes out looking sharp, that's for sure.

I see the comment as pretty innocuous but blown out of proportion in a very typical manner. I think we've all but reached an agreement that Deng was not more harmed from adding the African reference to what, by itself, is an unflattering characterization of him. That leaves the continent of Africa and African nationals to slighted. Fine but I would argue that sort of corruption implied in the comment is a real concern that greatly hampers the efforts by relief organization who want to help Africans who are suffering. I do not think pockets of corruption in the US compares to the widespread corruption in some mostly Sub Saharan African nations.
I see no benefit in pretending it doesn't exist and I prefer to state it plainly.

Then there are those who want to make this a slight against all black folks including African Americans which is just wrong and unnecessarily divisive. In a larger sense which is probably not suitable for this board, I see a lot of folks who are frustrated by the one-sided conversations that we have about race who feel like their opinion has been marginalized to the point that they simply don't participate. That may seem to be a good thing to many but I don't agree. Having a large segment disengaged in race relations is harmful to the cause except to a few who benefit from racial tensions. In order to engage folks have to be able to state their honest view and to even be "wrong" without being labeled.

In short I believe folks are going to have to toughen up a bit and temper their indignation reflex in order for real and meaningful discussions to occur. That would mean leaving some room for straight talk and perhaps some perceived "insensitive" conversations without silencing the speaker with accusation of racism and not always making a mountain out of mole hill in these instance.

Reisen
09-13-2014, 08:31 AM
I reread the post you are referencing, and I realized I was unclear. I don't for a second think whites have a corner on bigotry. I meant that this particular slur, that dark-skinned minorities in various countries are accused of sloth and sexual violence, is common. I am in full agreement that pernicious racism is to be found in every community.

Sounds good!

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
09-13-2014, 09:32 AM
I see the comment as pretty innocuous but blown out of proportion in a very typical manner. I think we've all but reached an agreement that Deng was not more harmed from adding the African reference to what, by itself, is an unflattering characterization of him. That leaves the continent of Africa and African nationals to slighted. Fine but I would argue that sort of corruption implied in the comment is a real concern that greatly hampers the efforts by relief organization who want to help Africans who are suffering. I do not think pockets of corruption in the US compares to the widespread corruption in some mostly Sub Saharan African nations.
I see no benefit in pretending it doesn't exist and I prefer to state it plainly.

Then there are those who want to make this a slight against all black folks including African Americans which is just wrong and unnecessarily divisive. In a larger sense which is probably not suitable for this board, I see a lot of folks who are frustrated by the one-sided conversations that we have about race who feel like their opinion has been marginalized to the point that they simply don't participate. That may seem to be a good thing to many but I don't agree. Having a large segment disengaged in race relations is harmful to the cause except to a few who benefit from racial tensions. In order to engage folks have to be able to state their honest view and to even be "wrong" without being labeled.

In short I believe folks are going to have to toughen up a bit and temper their indignation reflex in order for real and meaningful discussions to occur. That would mean leaving some room for straight talk and perhaps some perceived "insensitive" conversations without silencing the speaker with accusation of racism and not always making a mountain out of mole hill in these instance.

Upthread you state that you are not trying to decide who should and shouldn't be offended. Then, in the above statements it certainly appears you are trying to do exactly that.

Serious question for you - let's say you and I were alone in a car on a road together and we started a conversation in which I used some wildly misogynistic terms. Do you have a right to be offended, even though the conversation takes place in a vacuum and no one is harmed by the comment even if you are not a woman?

Myself, I try and always choose my words carefully, not just when in "mixed comany." Not only because I don't want to be perceived as offensive, but because I do my best not to be a prejudiced bigot. It isn't a question of my audience, but rather my character.

Now, the document that clarifies the scouting report seems to exonerate Ferry on the level of having come up with this ludicrous characterization, but it doesn't mean he is free and clear when it comes to poor judgment.

You are on a message board populated with people who would love to see Ferry through the greatest of lenses - he has provided all of us with so many great memories during his years at Duke. All of us would love for there to be a more palatable explanation for his words, but excusing them outright is not an option that is on the table.

JBDuke
09-13-2014, 09:50 AM
I see the comment as pretty innocuous but blown out of proportion in a very typical manner. I think we've all but reached an agreement that Deng was not more harmed from adding the African reference to what, by itself, is an unflattering characterization of him. That leaves the continent of Africa and African nationals to slighted. Fine but I would argue that sort of corruption implied in the comment is a real concern that greatly hampers the efforts by relief organization who want to help Africans who are suffering. I do not think pockets of corruption in the US compares to the widespread corruption in some mostly Sub Saharan African nations.
I see no benefit in pretending it doesn't exist and I prefer to state it plainly.

Then there are those who want to make this a slight against all black folks including African Americans which is just wrong and unnecessarily divisive. In a larger sense which is probably not suitable for this board, I see a lot of folks who are frustrated by the one-sided conversations that we have about race who feel like their opinion has been marginalized to the point that they simply don't participate. That may seem to be a good thing to many but I don't agree. Having a large segment disengaged in race relations is harmful to the cause except to a few who benefit from racial tensions. In order to engage folks have to be able to state their honest view and to even be "wrong" without being labeled.

In short I believe folks are going to have to toughen up a bit and temper their indignation reflex in order for real and meaningful discussions to occur. That would mean leaving some room for straight talk and perhaps some perceived "insensitive" conversations without silencing the speaker with accusation of racism and not always making a mountain out of mole hill in these instance.

These boards are NOT the place for an extended discussion of race relations and African corruption. There are plenty of places on the Internet where you can discuss and argue such topics ad nauseum.

Once again, we're starting to stray a little far afield of where the moderating team is comfortable keeping discussions. With Deng and Ferry at the center of this issue, and with articles on the main DBR blog, there's little chance of avoiding some dialog here, but we ask you to keep in mind what I wrote above - this is NOT the place to broaden the discussion beyond the particular incident and the involvement of Duke-affiliated people. If the other posters in this thread cannot do so, we'll start deleting individual posts that don't address the Duke-related aspects here. If that doesn't stop the thread drift, we'll just shut it down.

The moderators have a clear charter from the DBR admins to keep discussions civil, on-topic, and out of public policy territory. Please keep that in mind before you post here.

DukieInKansas
09-13-2014, 10:11 AM
Upthread you state that you are not trying to decide who should and shouldn't be offended. Then, in the above statements it certainly appears you are trying to do exactly that.

Serious question for you - let's say you and I were alone in a car on a road together and we started a conversation in which I used some wildly misogynistic terms. Do you have a right to be offended, even though the conversation takes place in a vacuum and no one is harmed by the comment even if you are not a woman?

Myself, I try and always choose my words carefully, not just when in "mixed comany." Not only because I don't want to be perceived as offensive, but because I do my best not to be a prejudiced bigot. It isn't a question of my audience, but rather my character.

Now, the document that clarifies the scouting report seems to exonerate Ferry on the level of having come up with this ludicrous characterization, but it doesn't mean he is free and clear when it comes to poor judgment.

You are on a message board populated with people who would love to see Ferry through the greatest of lenses - he has provided all of us with so many great memories during his years at Duke. All of us would love for there to be a more palatable explanation for his words, but excusing them outright is not an option that is on the table.

I think that, rather than label someone who says something that could be offensive, it is an opportunity to educate them so they learn not to use such language. Growing up, I was taught that the n word was to never be used and that lesson has stayed with me. If we come a littler further ahead in the way back machine, Fuzzy Zoeller gave a hypothetical menu that he was wondering if Tiger Woods would serve after winning The Masters. It was educational to me because I didn't know that those two food items were a negative stereotype, or any kind of stereotype. I was clueless on that. Rather than assume the speaker had a racist/xenophobic/anti-whatever slant by the comment, the first time they should be given the benefit of the doubt. Explain why the phrase is inappropriate, don't make them feel like a horrible person, and go on. If they keep using the phrase/word, then label all you want.

Just my $0.02 - feel free to delete, moderators, if it is to PPB.

Reisen
09-13-2014, 10:17 AM
So, to bring this back to Ferry, I wonder his motives for taking an indefinite leave? A couple I can think of:

- To remove the distraction of this from the Hawks organization so they can better focus on operations

- To give everyone a cooling off period and let some of this blow over

- Because he feels horrible about a mistake and is ridden with guilt / regret

- Because he probably doesn't need the money, and is in the mode of "Enough of this, I'd be happier in Hawaii playing golf at this point in my life"

This certainly doesn't seem to bode well for his future with the Hawks organization. Perhaps he's happy stepping down and then moving to another team for a fresh start?

duke79
09-13-2014, 11:08 AM
So, to bring this back to Ferry, I wonder his motives for taking an indefinite leave? A couple I can think of:

- To remove the distraction of this from the Hawks organization so they can better focus on operations

- To give everyone a cooling off period and let some of this blow over

- Because he feels horrible about a mistake and is ridden with guilt / regret

- Because he probably doesn't need the money, and is in the mode of "Enough of this, I'd be happier in Hawaii playing golf at this point in my life"

This certainly doesn't seem to bode well for his future with the Hawks organization. Perhaps he's happy stepping down and then moving to another team for a fresh start?

Hard to know for sure what motivated him to take an "indefinite leave" but I'm sure he is feeling a lot of pressure from various parties on this issue. I'm guessing (and I hope I'm wrong) that he won't be coming back to the Hawks and I think there is a possibility that his days as a general manager (or other role) in the NBA are done. Any statements with even a slight hint of racism are career killers in something like the NBA.

Poincaré
09-13-2014, 12:20 PM
The simplest explanation is that declaring the length of his leave would create another brown-and-smelly storm of discussions in the next news cycle about the appropriateness of the length. The controlling owners are clearly on Danny's side...as are a number of prominent black executives such as Masai Ujiri and Billy King who have publicly voiced their support. Adam Silver, whose defining action as Commissioner has been the removal of Donald Sterling has voiced his support. We've heard from numerous sources around the NBA now that Danny has not shown any signs of being a racist in the past. The law firm that was hired to turn the Hawks inside-out for signs of racism has not found any communication by Ferry that indicated racism on his part. Most importantly, we have the actual scouting report, which now proves that the comments he made during the conference call did not originate from him.

As ridiculous as Stephen A. Smith is 99% of the time, he was right about this: This is a witch hunt. Notice how most of the recording has vanished magically. We know that the person who made the recording was in a power struggle with the ousted owner and Ferry.

The irony is that the false attribution of prejudiced opinions to Ferry has now potentially prejudiced future free agents against him. Danny's career might not survive despite the fact that the essential facts are now public. Fantastic. I guess it's good that he's already made his money. After reviewing the thread again, I am once more not surprised by my fellow alums' eagerness to throw a fellow alum under the bus at a moment's notice before the evidence is out. It's par for the course at this point.

I won't even criticize ESPN and other news outlets for continuing to write stories using weaselly wording that obfuscates (or even entirely hides) the fact that the offensive comments originated from a scouting report and not from Danny's own mind. We get the news we deserve and our society wants blood not news. They're just supplying the demand.

WakeDevil
09-13-2014, 01:50 PM
You would all be better off starting a thread about this on the Brickyard or the ZZL.

OldSchool
09-13-2014, 03:26 PM
Part I - Levenson
Part II - Ferry
Part III - Cleveland (couldn't happen to a 'better' organization)

It's amazing that this scandal has still not proceeded to Part III. The long knives are out for Ferry for stupidly repeating the offensive comment, but nothing against Cleveland for originally coming up with it.

Now we have Carmelo saying free agents won't sign with Atlanta because Danny repeated the comment, but apparently free agents will be just fine with Cleveland even though it is someone at the Cavaliers organization who actually believes that Luol is two-faced because he's African like the guys selling counterfeit goods.

Does anyone on here doubt that by now the media knows full well who at Cleveland made the offensive comment? I'm betting someone the media happens to like, maybe some former player, and they don't want to get him or Cleveland in trouble.

Atlanta Duke
09-13-2014, 05:25 PM
It's amazing that this scandal has still not proceeded to Part III. The long knives are out for Ferry for stupidly repeating the offensive comment, but nothing against Cleveland for originally coming up with it.

Now we have Carmelo saying free agents won't sign with Atlanta because Danny repeated the comment, but apparently free agents will be just fine with Cleveland even though it is someone at the Cavaliers organization who actually believes that Luol is two-faced because he's African like the guys selling counterfeit goods.

Cleveland recently signed a player who might attract other free agents to Cleveland regardless of how screwed up the front office my be. It will be interesting to see if LeBron James cares to find out who within the Cavaliers organization made the comment and demands disciplinary be action be taken against that person - there can be no doubt LeBron has the clout to demand action be taken

subzero02
09-15-2014, 10:05 AM
Cleveland recently signed a player who might attract other free agents to Cleveland regardless of how screwed up the front office my be. It will be interesting to see if LeBron James cares to find out who within the Cavaliers organization made the comment and demands disciplinary be action be taken against that person - there can be no doubt LeBron has the clout to demand action be taken

If Lebron James wants to take action against the source of the report, he'll do so behind the scenes.

sagegrouse
09-15-2014, 12:26 PM
Cleveland recently signed a player who might attract other free agents to Cleveland regardless of how screwed up the front office my be. It will be interesting to see if LeBron James cares to find out who within the Cavaliers organization made the comment and demands disciplinary be action be taken against that person - there can be no doubt LeBron has the clout to demand action be taken

How about fired Cavs coach Mike Brown? He would have strong views about the locker room last season; he could also throw in the phrase "a little African in him" without anyone thinking ill of him. It's peculiar -- Luol was complaining after the season that the team was lacking in cohesion, and now he's being cited as a cause. I don't buy it.

lotusland
09-15-2014, 01:05 PM
It's amazing that this scandal has still not proceeded to Part III. The long knives are out for Ferry for stupidly repeating the offensive comment, but nothing against Cleveland for originally coming up with it.

Now we have Carmelo saying free agents won't sign with Atlanta because Danny repeated the comment, but apparently free agents will be just fine with Cleveland even though it is someone at the Cavaliers organization who actually believes that Luol is two-faced because he's African like the guys selling counterfeit goods.

Does anyone on here doubt that by now the media knows full well who at Cleveland made the offensive comment? I'm betting someone the media happens to like, maybe some former player, and they don't want to get him or Cleveland in trouble.


I haven't seen anything that indicates that Ferry will have a difficulties with free agents, players or the league. Seems like the comments from players. ex-players, league officials and colleagues have along the lines that he made an ill-advised comment but is not a racist. He'll probably just lay low for awhile and be back with another organization in a year if not sooner.

freshmanjs
09-15-2014, 02:07 PM
I haven't seen anything that indicates that Ferry will have a difficulties with free agents, players or the league. Seems like the comments from players. ex-players, league officials and colleagues have along the lines that he made an ill-advised comment but is not a racist. He'll probably just lay low for awhile and be back with another organization in a year if not sooner.

guess you didn't see carmelo's comments.

subzero02
09-15-2014, 02:47 PM
Magic Johnson has called for Ferry to step down on twitter.


http://sports.ndtv.com/nba/news/229614-magic-johnson-calls-for-atlanta-hawks-gm-danny-ferry-to-go-in-latest-racism-storm

lotusland
09-15-2014, 03:51 PM
guess you didn't see carmelo's comments.

No I didn't but that is sad. I was just getting intrigued with the NBA again with Lebron and Kyrie together in Cleveland but never mind.

gus
09-15-2014, 05:22 PM
Wait, up, what, y'all? Africa "only" has 1.1B residents? That surprises me. That's less than either India or China. I think.

I can't say I've ever bought a real or fake Gucci handbag on the street, or anywhere. This board consistently educates me about what a country mouse I am, relatively speaking, despite living in a city.


Throaty, you should check out Hans Rosling. He does great data visualization, but also talks quite a bit about public misperception of health and census data. His shtick involves polling the audience on questions like "How does the number of deaths from natural disasters now compare to 100 years ago? A. About double B. About the same. C. Less than half".

Invariably, less than 33% of the audience pick the right answer to his questions. One of his questions involves understanding the distribution of the world's population. Needless to say, you're not alone in thinking that Africa's population is much bigger than it actually is.

cspan37421
09-15-2014, 05:38 PM
Magic Johnson has called for Ferry to step down on twitter.


http://sports.ndtv.com/nba/news/229614-magic-johnson-calls-for-atlanta-hawks-gm-danny-ferry-to-go-in-latest-racism-storm

I wonder what Kareem thinks. Kareem wrote a thoughtful and persuasive article on how Levenson's so-called racist email was really just about paying sensible attention to demographics.

Although this is different, the situation has its subtleties, the implications of which may lead to disagreements among reasonable people.

But hey, Twitter, yeah, maybe Magic is just really concise with his analysis.

cspan37421
09-15-2014, 05:39 PM
guess you didn't see carmelo's comments.

As thoughtful and disinterested an opinion as you're likely to see ... from one in his situation.

subzero02
09-24-2014, 12:33 AM
After talking with Danny Ferry, Magic Johnson now feels that he should be given a second chance somewhere. His comments on twitter definitely hint that Ferry could be done in Atlanta.

http://mweb.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24722360/magic-johnson-says-danny-ferry-deserves-a-second-chance?v=1&vc=1