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awhom111
08-30-2014, 01:01 AM
I do not remember what we did for past tournaments, so I just started a game thread. Finland is a fun opponent to start with. Although they are not predicted to be a challenge, they do like to play uptempo and shoot from the outside, which could lead to an interesting scoreline if all 12 American players are focused throughout. Erik Murphy is the name most familiar to American fans, but there are a number of others to keep an eye on and you may remember some of the players from past NCAA seasons as many of them spent time in the United States. Petteri Koponen and Sasu Salin form an exciting backcourt. The other exciting thing to see will be the legendary Hanno Mottola, who prolonged his career just long enough to finally play in a major tournament with the team.

flyingdutchdevil
08-30-2014, 12:47 PM
Go Rik Smits! Is he still playing?

In all honesty, I have no idea why the Dutch don't play basketball ( tallest nation in the world) or ice hockey (best speed skaters + big dudes). I guess soccer is just too big a sport and our attention spans are just too small for multiple sports.

Henderson
08-30-2014, 01:34 PM
In all honesty, I have no idea why the Dutch don't play basketball ( tallest nation in the world) or ice hockey (best speed skaters + big dudes). I guess soccer is just too big a sport and our attention spans are just too small for multiple sports.

There's also cycling. It's a nation of 16 million, which is a bit less than Florida but greater than Pennsylvania. I'd say they hold their own in international sports. I doubt they lose any sleep not excelling at basketball, hockey, American football or baseball. I'm not sure "America does this, so why don't you?" really resonates with them. And why should it?

From a Dutch perspective, they might wonder at the fact that the USA isn't better at soccer and speed skating, given the fact that we have approximately 20 times their population, plenty of resources for soccer, and lots of ice rinks.

Cycling? Well, that's a complicated story, but the Dutch do pretty well there too.

Henderson
08-30-2014, 02:10 PM
But back on topic....

Slovenia beat Australia, and Dante Exum only played 11 minutes. He didn't score, had one turnover and one assist. The Aussie staff was clear that he'd come off the bench (i.e. not a starter) and be expected to contribute. He was 1 for 2 on that. Came off the bench and didn't contribute. What's up with that, given the fact that Slovenia broke the game open after a slow start? If he can't compete against the Dragic brothers....

moonpie23
08-30-2014, 03:48 PM
espn 3 hates me......says i am "not an authorized user".......would one of y'all please authorize me?


thx

flyingdutchdevil
08-30-2014, 04:14 PM
There's also cycling. It's a nation of 16 million, which is a bit less than Florida but greater than Pennsylvania. I'd say they hold their own in international sports. I doubt they lose any sleep not excelling at basketball, hockey, American football or baseball. I'm not sure "America does this, so why don't you?" really resonates with them. And why should it?

From a Dutch perspective, they might wonder at the fact that the USA isn't better at soccer and speed skating, given the fact that we have approximately 20 times their population, plenty of resources for soccer, and lots of ice rinks.

Cycling? Well, that's a complicated story, but the Dutch do pretty well there too.

I was being facetious more than anything. Size of your country is an important factor, but so is culture and history. These are more important factors to why nations don't play international sports.

Hockey and basketball are no longer American sports. Just like rugby, cricket, and soccer are no longer English sports. American football is a different story, as it is not played by anyone outside of North America. Basketball, baseball, and ice hockey are different (and the Dutch are shockingly good at baseball, but that's because of Suriname more than anything else).

Didn't mean to hijack this thread with my own jingoism. Back on topic!

awhom111
08-31-2014, 12:31 AM
Here is a look at some of the other games:

In Group A, Serbia eased past Egypt 85-64. Interestingly, Miroslav Raduljica got the start again and had 13 points and 6 rebounds in a short period of time as he looks for his next team. The key game in this group was Brazil and France with Brazil grinding out a 65-63 win. Marcelo Huertas had 16 points and Marquinhos had 10 points and 6 rebounds in the win. Boris Diaw had 15 points and 6 rebounds and Nicolas Batum had 13 points as this could be a critical result in setting up brackets through the semifinals. The hosts opened with a solid 90-60 win over Iran. Pau Gasol had 33 points and 8 rebounds and Marc Gasol had 15 points and 10 rebounds as both of their backups were injured. Rudy Fernandez had 12 points and Juan Carlos Navarro had 10 points while Hamed Haddadi had 16 points and 15 rebounds in the loss.

In Group B, the game that started the day was Croatia against the Philippines with the upstarts nearly springing a major upset before falling 81-78 in overtime. Andray Blatche did have an impact with 28 points and 12 rebounds. In the win, Bojan Bogdanovic had 26 points and Dario Saric had 10 points and 9 rebounds. Argentina had a somewhat surprisingly easy time with Puerto Rico and won 98-75. The old guard led the way again as Luis Scola had 20 points and 9 rebounds, Andres Nocioni had 18 points and 11 rebounds, and Walter Herrmann had 12 points and 10 rebounds. In the loss, J.J. Barea had 24 points and Renaldo Balkman had 10 points. Greece blasted out of the gates against Senegal and won 87-64. Giannis Antetokounmpo had 11 points. In the loss, Gorgui Dieng had 21 points and 14 rebounds and Maleye N'Doye had 11 points.

Besides the USA game, Group C included Ukraine beating the Dominican Republic 72-62. Pooh Jeter had 16 points, Viacheslav Kravtsov had 13 points and 7 rebounds, and Sergii Gladyr had 12 points. In the loss, Francisco Garcia had 18 points, Edgar Sosa had 11 points, and James Feldeine had 10 points. New Zealand really missed a chance at a solid win after collapsing late against Turkey and losing 76-73. Emir Preldzic had 14 points and 6 rebounds in the win. Corey Webster had 22 points and Rob Loe had 11 points and 6 rebounds in the loss.

In Group D, Angola beat South Korea 80-69 to start the day. Yanick Moreira had 16 points and 10 rebounds and Reggie Moore had 10 points and 6 rebounds. Slovenia beat Australia 90-80 in a game that could help determine knockout round matchups on the American side of the bracket. Goran Dragic led the way with 21 points and 7 rebounds. In the loss, Aron Baynes had 21 points and 7 rebounds, David Andersen had 14 points, and Brad Newley had 13 points. Marty and Lithuania had a tough test for a while against Mexico, but did take care of business with an 87-74 win. Marty dished out a pair of assists in 11 minutes. Jonas Valanciunas had 17 points and Donatas Motiejunas had 15 points. In the loss, Francisco Cruz had 21 points, Jorge Gutierrez had 13 points, and Gustavo Ayon had 12 points and 6 rebounds.


I guess a mod can update title to say USA vs Turkey 08/31 3:30pm EDT ESPN.

pfrduke
08-31-2014, 12:35 AM
Well that was easy. 8 guys had 9 or more points and we forced 31 Finnish turnovers. On to a rematch of the championship game from 4 years ago.

awhom111
08-31-2014, 01:17 AM
Well that was easy. 8 guys had 9 or more points and we forced 31 Finnish turnovers. On to a rematch of the championship game from 4 years ago.

Turkey was rather unconvincing for most of the game against New Zealand and made a late charge to win at the end. This group is not as talented as the 2010 squad and a slightly stronger roster than this one was a complete disaster last summer, meaning they needed a wild card to play this summer. They will try to run their offense through their naturalized player, Emir Preldzic. It should be another easy win for the United States, although the margin may not be the same scale because I can see them attempting damage limitation.

theAlaskanBear
08-31-2014, 11:19 AM
Awesome France v Srbija (I love this spelling) game just finished. France won on a last second free throw after a back-and-forth game for more of the 4th quarter. Even without Parker this France team is pretty decent, good ball movement. With Parker they would be a contender.

flyingdutchdevil
08-31-2014, 11:36 AM
Between Finland yesterday and the exhibitions, I've concluded a few things:

-Anthony Davis is a man amongst children. I'm not even sure he's been trying that hard in the last games and he's still dominating.

-James Harden's foot work is beautiful. His Eurosteps, ability to get fouls called, and step back are beautiful. Maybe best in the league. But he shoots waaaaaay too much

-I never thought I'd say this, but I really like Rudy Gay on this team. He brings something very different, and he's a smart, smart player. Also, his defense is pretty solid.

-Klay Thompson is such a fun player to watch and a great two-way player. He has the opportunity to be the best 2 guard in the league soon.

-Curry hasn't been that effective thus far. He really likes to foul.

-If Coach K can do that to Demarcus Cousins, Coach K can do anything. Wow. What a transformation. Sacramento should just offer Coach K $100 over 5 years, just for $%&# and giggles.

-Mason Plumlee really likes to dunk

-I hope Faried makes the 2016 Olympic team, but I doubt he will. He's such a likable player.

JBDuke
08-31-2014, 01:12 PM
Between Finland yesterday and the exhibitions, I've concluded a few things:

-Anthony Davis is a man amongst children. I'm not even sure he's been trying that hard in the last games and he's still dominating.
-James Harden's foot work is beautiful. His Eurosteps, ability to get fouls called, and step back are beautiful. Maybe best in the league. But he shoots waaaaaay too much
-I never thought I'd say this, but I really like Rudy Gay on this team. He brings something very different, and he's a smart, smart player. Also, his defense is pretty solid.
-Klay Thompson is such a fun player to watch and a great two-way player. He has the opportunity to be the best 2 guard in the league soon.
-Curry hasn't been that effective thus far. He really likes to foul.
-If Coach K can do that to Demarcus Cousins, Coach K can do anything. Wow. What a transformation. Sacramento should just offer Coach K $100 over 5 years, just for $%&# and giggles.
-Mason Plumlee really likes to dunk
-I hope Faried makes the 2016 Olympic team, but I doubt he will. He's such a likable player.

It's rare that I see a post make this many points, and I agree with all of them, but FDD just pulled it off.

Davis has been a revelation. The Pelicans haven't been featured much on national broadcasts for the past two years, so I haven't seen much of him. Certainly, his 2013-14 NBA season represented a major step forward. I think it is highly likely that New Orleans will be on ESPN and TNT a little more often. As for this tournament, he's pretty clearly the USA's best option on offense and its anchor on defense.

Harden is a lot of fun to watch for exactly the reasons you mention - whether on the break or in the half court. He's a really strong fit with the starting squad. But I agree he falls into the trap that many players who have dominant skills do - selfishness. When you're that good with driving to the basket and drawing fouls, why give the ball up? If he'd pass off his drives, or use the perimeter space he creates to look for others' shots as well as his own, he could really elevate his game.

I, too, like Rudy Gay's work with this team much better than I thought I would. I think he's matured somewhat and has learned to play with others better. And I think he fits a unique role with this team that is well-suited to international play, so he still gets some strokes to his ego. I don't want him on my NBA team yet, but I like him here.

I love Thompson's defense. His style seems to fit the international game better, as he relies on his hands a lot less than Curry. And Thompson's footwork on D is like Harden's on O - probably the best on the team. As for Curry, if he gets hot, he'll dominate.

Cousins's play, like Gay's, is making me detest him a lot less. I haven't seen the attitude problems - he seems eager to play within the team concept. And the coaching staff seems to have recognized that he can be an unstoppable force on the blocks, so they've run several plays to take advantage. I look forward to seeing him operate against the Spaniards. And he rebounds like a wild beast on steroids. Geez.

I love Mason's motor. He runs like a deer and plays within his limits otherwise. I think he's a great fit, especially with Kyrie on the floor. We saw some of their magic together in those first 8 games of 2010-11. I hope he never sustains a serious leg injury in his career, because they're so critical to his game.

kAzE
08-31-2014, 03:57 PM
Splash Brothers . . more like Brick Brothers . . . sheesh.

dukelifer
08-31-2014, 04:15 PM
Splash Brothers . . more like Brick Brothers . . . sheesh.

USA playing very poorly. Will be down at the half. And this is without Turkey playing well on O. Their zone is giving the US trouble.

Dr. Rosenrosen
08-31-2014, 04:15 PM
That's some awful defense. I mean, wow. Red Sea D all over the place.

rsvman
08-31-2014, 04:30 PM
They look out of sync on both ends of the court, but I actually think the offense was worse than the defense in the first half.

kAzE
08-31-2014, 05:08 PM
Davis and Faried are unbelievable. I always thought Faried would make the team, but I don't think anyone knew he was going to be this good.

dukelifer
08-31-2014, 05:23 PM
Davis and Faried are unbelievable. I always thought Faried would make the team, but I don't think anyone knew he was going to be this good.

He is the most consistent and toughest player on the team. He was the reason for the turn-around in the second half. USA wore them down as they will against most teams.

YmoBeThere
08-31-2014, 05:33 PM
I turned it on when the US was up by 6, they walked away with it after that point...the ease with which Davis and Faried were scoring in the lane was unbelievable.

CDu
08-31-2014, 05:42 PM
Davis and Faried are unbelievable. I always thought Faried would make the team, but I don't think anyone knew he was going to be this good.

Yeah those two have been outstanding. Not far off of them has been Harden, who has kind of taken over the PG/playmaker role. He can be a bit of a ballhog at times, but he also seemed to make all the right decisions off the dribble.

JasonEvans
08-31-2014, 05:52 PM
It was good for this team to struggle a bit with a team that executed well and was especially good for them to correct what was going wrong at halftime. This game could nicely pave the way for the team to be able to deal with adversity later on. Winning by 40+ won't teach you much.

Faried and Davis were stunningly good. Turkey had no answer for them. How did this team not get Davis the ball at all in the first half?!?!

-Jason "Kyrie seemed to be in the game a lot more than Rose when the game was still in a little bit of doubt" Evans

awhom111
08-31-2014, 06:25 PM
Here is a look at some of the other games:

In Group A, France and Serbia had the latest titanic clash in the group with France just sneaking out with a 74-73 win. Joffrey Lauvergne had 19 points and 6 rebounds and Nicolas Batum had 11 points and 6 rebounds in the win. Miroslav Raduljica clearly wants to get paid as he had 21 points and 7 rebounds, Bogdan Bogdanovic had 12 points, and Nemanja Bjelica had 11 points in the loss. Brazil played an even first quarter with Iran then ran away with a 79-50 win. Alex Ribeiro Garcia had 12 points, Leandro Barbosa had 11 points, and Tiago Splitter had 10 points and 6 rebounds. Spain closed the day by rolling past Egypt 91-54 as they finally had a game with their entire roster available. Serge Ibaka had 18 points and 8 rebounds, Rudy Fernandez had 14 points, and Pau Gasol had 12 points.
Standings: Spain 2-0, Brazil 2-0, Serbia 1-1, France 1-1, Egypt 0-2, Iran 0-2

In Group B, Croatia held off Argentina 90-85. In the win, Dario Saric had 16 points and 9 rebounds while losing an unspecified number of teeth, Bojan Bogdanovic had 16 points and 7 rebounds, and Oliver Lafayette had 11 points and 9 assists. Luis Scola had 30 points and 9 rebounds and Andres Nocioni had 11 points in the loss. Puerto Rico was stunned 82-75 by Senegal and could have lingering injury issues to deal with. In the win, Mouhammad Faye had 20 points and Gorgui Dieng had 18 points and 13 rebounds. In the loss, Renaldo Balkman had 21 points and 7 rebounds, J.J. Barea had 15 points, and Carlos Arroyo had 11 points before going down. Greece got a tough fight from the Philippines, but won 82-70 behind 25 points and 8 rebounds from Georgios Printezis. Andray Blatche had 21 points and 14 rebounds in the loss.
Standings: Greece 2-0, Croatia 2-0, Argentina 1-1, Senegal 1-1, Philippines 0-2, Puerto Rico 0-2

In the other Group C games, the Dominican Republic beat New Zealand 76-63. Francisco Garcia had 29 points and 6 rebounds and Jack Michael Martinez added 12 points and 6 rebounds in the win. In the loss, Tom Abercrombie had 22 points and Kirk Penney had 16 points. Finland bounced back by edging Ukraine 81-76. In the win, Shawn Huff had 23 points and 8 rebounds, Petteri Koponen had 14 points and 9 assists, and Erik Murphy had 12 points and 8 rebounds. Pooh Jeter had 24 points and 9 assists in the loss.
Standings: United States 2-0, Ukraine 1-1, Dominican Republic 1-1, Turkey 1-1, Finland 1-1, New Zealand 0-2

In Group D, Australia eased past South Korea 89-55. In the win, Aron Baynes had 13 points and 10 rebounds and Cameron Bairstow had 13 points. Slovenia eventually built a big lead in an 89-68 win over Mexico as Goran Dragic had 18 points and 6 assists. In the loss, Gustavo Ayon had 23 points and Francisco Cruz had 13 points. Marty had a much better second game as Lithuania again struggled early before beating Angola 75-62. He finished with 9 points in 19 minutes. Donatas Motiejunas had 12 points and Jonas Valanciunas had 11 points and 13 rebounds. Reggie Moore had 11 points.
Standings: Slovenia 2-0, Lithuania 2-0, Australia 1-1, Angola 1-1, Mexico 0-2, South Korea 0-2


Tomorrow, Group A and B play while C and D rest. That is flipped for Tuesday as the United States will get a day off before facing New Zealand. That game should not be particularly close, but New Zealand does have a tendency to play well at the start of games.

sagegrouse
08-31-2014, 07:40 PM
IMHO (where the H is usually silent) the game against Finland was very bad for the U.S. Those guys put up no competition whatsoever, and the game made the U.S. think it is playing better than it is.

camion
08-31-2014, 08:35 PM
IMHO (where the H is usually silent) the game against Finland was very bad for the U.S. Those guys put up no competition whatsoever, and the game made the U.S. think it is playing better than it is.

That's the trouble with blowouts. No matter how much you tell yourself that the next game will be harder you still come out and play like you expect it to be easy. That's the nature of most humans.

kAzE
08-31-2014, 08:55 PM
IMHO (where the H is usually silent) the game against Finland was very bad for the U.S. Those guys put up no competition whatsoever, and the game made the U.S. think it is playing better than it is.

We probably just played the toughest team in our group, so the true test will be keeping our focus laser sharp through the next 3 games (which are back to back to back) and beyond, so that we don't take a dip in level of play when we get to the knockout stage. Hopefully, Coach K will go deep into the bench for the next 3 games to try and keep guys fresh. I don't think there's any doubt that we should run through the rest of this group quite easily, so there's no need to push the starters too hard.

roywhite
08-31-2014, 10:22 PM
Yes, there were problems by the USA team in approach and execution in the first half, but my main impression from this game was just how dominant this team can be against a good opponent (and Turkey is a good international team). The third quarter and a good part of the fourth quarter (up till garbage time) were very impressive -- pressure defense, excellent ball movement, and the ability to finish, whether at the rim or with open perimeter shots. Kenneth Faried and Anthony Davis inside were amazing; Kyrie and Harden are remarkable ball handlers. Fun to watch team basketball at this skill level.

roywhite
08-31-2014, 10:45 PM
Sorry if I missed this, but why is Enes Kanter not on this Turkey team?

JasonEvans
08-31-2014, 11:33 PM
Sorry if I missed this, but why is Enes Kanter not on this Turkey team?

I think he was deemed ineligible. They are appealing and just awaiting a decision... which should come in a matter of months.

-Jason "sorry, I just could not resist. Knee surgery is the real reason (http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/06/23/enes-kanter-to-get-prp-treatment-in-knee-will-skip-fiba-world-cup-for-turkey/)" Evans

jacone21
09-01-2014, 12:25 AM
I've decided that Faried is one of those 12 letter compound word guys that Coach K loves to have on his teams. Coach needed him today and he delivered.

mgtr
09-01-2014, 08:12 AM
I guess that I am saying that the Emperor has no clothes, but Derrick Rose hasn't shown me much so far. Maybe he is much more rusty than thought originally, maybe he is still injured. I guess he should have found somebody else to stand in for him. No, wait ....

Billy Dat
09-01-2014, 10:20 AM
Davis and Faried are unbelievable. I always thought Faried would make the team, but I don't think anyone knew he was going to be this good.


He is the most consistent and toughest player on the team. He was the reason for the turn-around in the second half. USA wore them down as they will against most teams.

Faried's value and Davis' continued ascension have really been the positive stories of training camp through the present (with the 'no thanks' no shows, George's leg break and Durant's bailing being the negative). Which leads one to...


Yeah those two have been outstanding. Not far off of them has been Harden, who has kind of taken over the PG/playmaker role. He can be a bit of a ballhog at times, but he also seemed to make all the right decisions off the dribble.

Sadly, CDu's attempt to find a silver lining in the playmaker storyline indicates how much of a vacuum exists in that spot. We don't have any traditional set-up guys along the Kidd/Paul lines. Kyrie is trying (and he better try harder when he's next to Lebron and Love) but he can't help but salivate and try and break down the D with his driving...ditto for Rose (who still is not himself), ditto for Harden, ditto for Curry, and it sure it would have been ditto for Lillard. These guys look at the people trying to guard them and immediately think, "I can BUST this dude". They aren't wrong, but we need a guy who starts up the offense with some passing. Did we ever throw the ball inside and get a bad result? Not too many times. It's so easy to see as you watch, quick outside shots are bad. But, these guys are such gifted scorers that a semi-open 20 footer looks like a lay-up to them.

So, the cliche of this being a good game because we needed to be tested certainly holds true. I just hope the guards clue in to the fact that the big dogs need to eat and that we get better shots, both inside and out, when the ball moves inside. We shredded that zone once we made that adjustment.

Also, for what its worth, the final percentages don't bear it out, but Turkey was throwing in tons of 3, many well defended, as they hung in the game. It felt like fools gold and it ultimately was.

Meanwhile, in the post game quotes, Faried said he thought K would blast them at halftime but that he was very calm. I bet Mason was silently laughing to himself thinking, "If this was Duke, we'd be getting REAMED right now."

Clay Feet POF
09-01-2014, 11:38 AM
That's the trouble with blowouts. No matter how much you tell yourself that the next game will be harder you still come out and play like you expect it to be easy. That's the nature of most humans.

Similarly with Duke’s apparently light non-conference schedule this could be a problem that Coach K might have to face on the collage level.

subzero02
09-01-2014, 12:28 PM
Similarly with Duke’s apparently light non-conference schedule this could be a problem that Coach K might have to face on the collage level.

This shouldn't be a problem for Coach K... No one is better than K at blending together various inidividuals into a conglomerate image.

mgtr
09-01-2014, 12:31 PM
This shouldn't be a problem for Coach K... No one is better than K at blending together various inidividuals into a conglomerate image.


Well played!

-bdbd
09-01-2014, 01:23 PM
It was good for this team to struggle a bit with a team that executed well and was especially good for them to correct what was going wrong at halftime. This game could nicely pave the way for the team to be able to deal with adversity later on. Winning by 40+ won't teach you much.

Faried and Davis were stunningly good. Turkey had no answer for them. How did this team not get Davis the ball at all in the first half?!?!

-Jason "Kyrie seemed to be in the game a lot more than Rose when the game was still in a little bit of doubt" Evans


Much more "goodness" like that and the USA may be flying back from Madrid a week or so early...

But I do get your point, Jason - let's hope that it lights a fire under them!
Might not be fun to be one of their three opponents in the next three days!

Billy Dat
09-01-2014, 01:47 PM
let's hope that it lights a fire under them!

I may be reading your intent too literally, but I don't think there's any lack of effort happening. I think, offensively, its a matter of understanding that even though an open look for any of these guys in the NBA season is one they should likely be taking, even early in the shot clock, these games are 17% shorter which means fewer possessions and fewer opportunities for regression to the mean. A collective bad shooting night happens a lot easier over 40 minutes, so we need to be taking the best shots we can, which typically means ones where the ball moves forcing the defense to recover and, hopefully, foul us or lead to a really open shot. Bad offense leads to bad defense and complaining about the officiating...a bad downward spiral.

CDu
09-01-2014, 01:55 PM
I guess that I am saying that the Emperor has no clothes, but Derrick Rose hasn't shown me much so far. Maybe he is much more rusty than thought originally, maybe he is still injured. I guess he should have found somebody else to stand in for him. No, wait ....

I don't think he is still injured, because quite frankly that doesn't seem realistically possible. He is over 24 months removed from his ACL surgery (which takes 9-12 months' recovery), and over 8 months removed from meniscus repair (4-5 months' recovery). And he has certainly shown his old explosive athleticism. So "still injured seems highly unlikely.

But I think the rust is much more of an issue than I had expected. On top of that, he is facing a style of defense that he hasn't seen since 2010 (international defense plays much more zone and more compactly). So I think the rust and perhaps lack of comfort with the style of play is the culprit. He is clearly struggling to find his rhythm out there.

BillyDat expounded on the issue, but the PG play has not been inspiring thus far. We have discussed Rose, but Irving and Curry have been less than impressive in the halfcourt so far. They have looked great in transition, but that won't get it done against Spain.

Thankfully Harden has been able to take some of the playmaking duties. But there has been woefully little team basketball on offense overall. In group play, that will be fine. As we reach the medal rounds, it won't.

Henderson
09-01-2014, 02:54 PM
I don't think he is still injured, because quite frankly that doesn't seem realistically possible. He is over 24 months removed from his ACL surgery (which takes 9-12 months' recovery), and over 8 months removed from meniscus repair (4-5 months' recovery). And he has certainly shown his old explosive athleticism. So "still injured seems highly unlikely.

But I think the rust is much more of an issue than I had expected. On top of that, he is facing a style of defense that he hasn't seen since 2010 (international defense plays much more zone and more compactly). So I think the rust and perhaps lack of comfort with the style of play is the culprit. He is clearly struggling to find his rhythm out there.

BillyDat expounded on the issue, but the PG play has not been inspiring thus far. We have discussed Rose, but Irving and Curry have been less than impressive in the halfcourt so far. They have looked great in transition, but that won't get it done against Spain.

Thankfully Harden has been able to take some of the playmaking duties. But there has been woefully little team basketball on offense overall. In group play, that will be fine. As we reach the medal rounds, it won't.

I agree on all counts. But in fairness, this team hasn't been playing together for long, and they haven't really been tested. Things tend to be a little sloppy when the opponent is overmatched. Even in the Turkey first half, there was a sense that if the team wanted to buckle down and get it done, they could. And they did in the second half.

One thing that makes me nervous is all this chatter about a Spain-USA final. The USA will get out of group play, no problem. But when it comes to the knock-out rounds, the team can't recover from a bad game. Obviously the players and coaches know that, but I feel like I need to bust out my mummified monkey head every time I hear someone speculating about our playing in the final against Spain.

CDu
09-01-2014, 04:30 PM
I agree on all counts. But in fairness, this team hasn't been playing together for long, and they haven't really been tested. Things tend to be a little sloppy when the opponent is overmatched. Even in the Turkey first half, there was a sense that if the team wanted to buckle down and get it done, they could. And they did in the second half.

One thing that makes me nervous is all this chatter about a Spain-USA final. The USA will get out of group play, no problem. But when it comes to the knock-out rounds, the team can't recover from a bad game. Obviously the players and coaches know that, but I feel like I need to bust out my mummified monkey head every time I hear someone speculating about our playing in the final against Spain.

Oh no doubt it is tough to get organized with so little prep. The George injury and Durant withdrawal exacerbate the problem too. But it seems like we are not even trying to run a half-court offense. Basically, for all of the push for continuity and experience, we seem like we are basically back to the pre-K days again in terms of readiness (again, largely due to unforeseen circumstances). I would definitely not say a championship is a given, nor even a championship appearance a given (though I think the latter is very likely).

MChambers
09-01-2014, 04:31 PM
Hopefully, Coach K will go deep into the bench for the next 3 games to try and keep guys fresh. I don't think there's any doubt that we should run through the rest of this group quite easily, so there's no need to push the starters too hard.
Don't you know? Coach K never goes more than eight deep!

awhom111
09-01-2014, 06:31 PM
In Group A, Serbia eventually overcame Iran 83-70. In the win, Nemanja Bjelica had 18 points and 10 rebounds, Bogdan Bogdanovic had 16 points, and Miroslav Raduljica had 13 points. In the loss, Hamed Haddadi had 29 points. France eased past Egypt 94-55 as Joffrey Lauvergne had 12 points and 7 rebounds and Kim Tillie went from off the roster to lots of garbage time with 10 points. Spain came out firing against Brazil and won 82-63. In the win, Pau Gasol had 26 points and 9 rebounds, Sergio Rodriguez had 12 points, and Juan Carlos Navarro had 10 points. In the loss, Leandro Barbosa had 11 points and Anderson Varejao had 10 points.
Standings: Spain 3-0, France 2-1, Serbia, 2-1, Brazil 2-1, Iran 0-3, Egypt 0-3

On Wednesday, the loser of the Egypt-Iran game will be eliminated although the winner is unlikely to advance either. Serbia-Brazil and Spain-France are intriguing matchups.

In Group B, Senegal picked up another surprise win by holding off Croatia 77-75 to open the day. Gorgui Dieng had 27 points and 8 rebounds and Mouhammad Faye had 11 points and 6 rebounds in the win. Dario Saric had 15 points and 6 rebounds, Bojan Bogdanovic had 15 points, and Ante Tomic had 14 points and 9 rebounds in the loss. The Philippines had an early lead, but could not recover after an Argentina run and lost 85-81. In the win, Luis Scola had 19 points and 7 rebounds and Walter Herrmann had 10 points. In the loss, Jimmy Alapag had 15 points and Andray Blatche had 14 points and 15 rebounds. Greece eventually wore down a shorthanded Puerto Rico team and won 90-79. In the win, Giannis Antetokounmpo had 15 points and Nick Calathes had 14 points. In the loss, Renaldo Balkman had 23 points, J.J. Barea had 21 points, and Carlos Rivera had 10 points.
Standings: Greece 3-0, Argentina 2-1, Croatia 2-1, Senegal 2-1, Philippines 0-3, Puerto Rico 0-3

The first game in the group on Wednesday is Philippines-Puerto Rico. The loser is eliminated and the winner needs to win on Thursday as well to advance. The winner of the Senegal-Argentina game will move on. Greece is currently qualified and closes the day against Croatia.


If we are still doing title changes, a mod can go with USA vs New Zealand 9/2 11:30am ESPN2/3. If nothing else, I hope we get a really nice display of the Haka for this one.

dukelifer
09-01-2014, 07:33 PM
Oh no doubt it is tough to get organized with so little prep. The George injury and Durant withdrawal exacerbate the problem too. But it seems like we are not even trying to run a half-court offense. Basically, for all of the push for continuity and experience, we seem like we are basically back to the pre-K days again in terms of readiness (again, largely due to unforeseen circumstances). I would definitely not say a championship is a given, nor even a championship appearance a given (though I think the latter is very likely).

Spain will be very tough. They are more experienced at almost every position- have played more together as a team- and will have the crowd behind them. USA will have to play their A game and will need to play very fast and hard to wear them down. USA will need to use all their depth if they end up playing Spain.

CDu
09-01-2014, 09:31 PM
Spain will be very tough. They are more experienced at almost every position- have played more together as a team- and will have the crowd behind them. USA will have to play their A game and will need to play very fast and hard to wear them down. USA will need to use all their depth if they end up playing Spain.

Spain is also the one team in the draw that USA's depth won't wear down. Spain can go 9-10 deep with NBA-caliber talent, and they have the guard play to not be phased by the US pressure. If we do face them, they won't be overwhelmed by us.

dukelifer
09-01-2014, 10:42 PM
Spain is also the one team in the draw that USA's depth won't wear down. Spain can go 9-10 deep with NBA-caliber talent, and they have the guard play to not be phased by the US pressure. If we do face them, they won't be overwhelmed by us.

Completely agree that they will not be overwhelmed but the only advantage the US team has over them is speed. Unfortunately, US relies on forcing turnovers and that is going to be tough to do against their guards. This is a very tough matchup. But Spain still needs to keep from tripping up.

jipops
09-01-2014, 11:52 PM
Oh no doubt it is tough to get organized with so little prep. The George injury and Durant withdrawal exacerbate the problem too. But it seems like we are not even trying to run a half-court offense. Basically, for all of the push for continuity and experience, we seem like we are basically back to the pre-K days again in terms of readiness (again, largely due to unforeseen circumstances). I would definitely not say a championship is a given, nor even a championship appearance a given (though I think the latter is very likely).

Yea halfcourt offense is certainly an achilles heel so far. The offense is all about quick hits with the ball rarely changing sides of the floor. Kyrie does more to pound the ball and drive and dish rather than setup an offense. Curry is more of a transition pg as well. This is where I was hoping Rose would be mentally back by now (physically he's appears just fine). He's much more of a pg type that manages an offense instead exclusively focused on transition and quick hits.

We may very well be ok but we could need Rose back accustomed to real game action for the team to handle a championship game.

Henderson
09-02-2014, 12:46 AM
My first thought was that we need to thrash New Zealand for having cut Nick Horvath.

Then I saw this:

4317

I know the sun shines at a different time of year in New Zealand, but the sun does shine there, right?

Anyway, then I remembered Nick was a physics major at Duke, and things clarified.

So I'm back to we need to thrash New Zealand for having cut Nick Horvath.

P.S. Trivia tidbit: In addition to playing basketball in New Zealand, Nick still teaches secondary school physics. He's built a nice life for himself, and I wish him the best.

CDu
09-02-2014, 10:35 AM
Yea halfcourt offense is certainly an achilles heel so far. The offense is all about quick hits with the ball rarely changing sides of the floor. Kyrie does more to pound the ball and drive and dish rather than setup an offense. Curry is more of a transition pg as well. This is where I was hoping Rose would be mentally back by now (physically he's appears just fine). He's much more of a pg type that manages an offense instead exclusively focused on transition and quick hits.

We may very well be ok but we could need Rose back accustomed to real game action for the team to handle a championship game.

I'm afraid that is a limitation of all of our options. None of our PG are pass-first players. Irving is a terrific talent who doesn't seem comfortable yet as a facilitator in the half-court. You're dead-on in terms of Irving's tendency to want to drive all the time; that's his game, but in FIBA (where teams play a collapsing man-to-man and/or VERY compact zones) it's just not as effective. And while I love Rose, facilitating the offense is also not a huge strength of his.

So we're getting a lot of one-pass (or no-pass) offensive sets in the half-court. If the PG passes, it's either to a post player who (rightfully) looks to score or a wing who also looks to score (either jacking up a 3 or himself trying to drive to the rim). And of those wings, only Harden seems alert enough to make the right pass off the dribble.

And since we took DeRozan over Korver, we don't have that catch-and-shoot wing guy to run off of screens (Thompson doesn't seem to be doing much of that, and Curry is too much of an on-ball player to fill that role). So we don't even have an easy set play to run.

But still, the PG play and half-court offense is something that is going to need to get much better if we're going to win this thing. We can't expect to "shock and awe" our way to the title, but that's the way we seem to be playing right now.

Hopefully as the tournament progresses, things get better.

sagegrouse
09-02-2014, 10:38 AM
The Ukraine beat Turkey 64-58. Not sure Turkey is our only real competition in pool play.

tux
09-02-2014, 11:42 AM
I'm afraid that is a limitation of all of our options. None of our PG are pass-first players. Irving is a terrific talent who doesn't seem comfortable yet as a facilitator in the half-court. You're dead-on in terms of Irving's tendency to want to drive all the time; that's his game, but in FIBA (where teams play a collapsing man-to-man and/or VERY compact zones) it's just not as effective. And while I love Rose, facilitating the offense is also not a huge strength of his.

So we're getting a lot of one-pass (or no-pass) offensive sets in the half-court. If the PG passes, it's either to a post player who (rightfully) looks to score or a wing who also looks to score (either jacking up a 3 or himself trying to drive to the rim). And of those wings, only Harden seems alert enough to make the right pass off the dribble.

And since we took DeRozan over Korver, we don't have that catch-and-shoot wing guy to run off of screens (Thompson doesn't seem to be doing much of that, and Curry is too much of an on-ball player to fill that role). So we don't even have an easy set play to run.

But still, the PG play and half-court offense is something that is going to need to get much better if we're going to win this thing. We can't expect to "shock and awe" our way to the title, but that's the way we seem to be playing right now.

Hopefully as the tournament progresses, things get better.


I think this is an overreaction to some poor shooting against Turkey. Turkey wanted to play at a slow pace and the US wanted to speed things up. Part of speeding things up is (often) taking the first good shot you get. I'm confident this is what K wanted them to do. Many of those shots were open. Now, could the offense take its time and hunt for a better shot? Sure, but then we'd be playing more at a pace that we didn't want to play at...

But, I agree that we don't have a pure pass-first PG on this team. Even Lilliard would not have provided that. Or Wall. I guess most of the elite PGs in the NBA are scoring guards. Remember when Rondo tried out -- everyone said he was a liability b/c he couldn't shoot. It's like the reaction to the Turkey game. Everyone loves the guys who can score until they're cold; then everyone's asking who the hell picked this team ?!?

jipops
09-02-2014, 12:07 PM
I think this is an overreaction to some poor shooting against Turkey. Turkey wanted to play at a slow pace and the US wanted to speed things up. Part of speeding things up is (often) taking the first good shot you get. I'm confident this is what K wanted them to do. Many of those shots were open. Now, could the offense take its time and hunt for a better shot? Sure, but then we'd be playing more at a pace that we didn't want to play at...

But, I agree that we don't have a pure pass-first PG on this team. Even Lilliard would not have provided that. Or Wall. I guess most of the elite PGs in the NBA are scoring guards. Remember when Rondo tried out -- everyone said he was a liability b/c he couldn't shoot. It's like the reaction to the Turkey game. Everyone loves the guys who can score until they're cold; then everyone's asking who the hell picked this team ?!?

I don't think this is an over-reaction to Turkey at all. This is simply what we've seen in our style of play since the friendlies.

tux
09-02-2014, 12:27 PM
I don't think this is an over-reaction to Turkey at all. This is simply what we've seen in our style of play since the friendlies.


Right. Our style of play is to maximize the number of possessions by playing at a fast pace. That's what you do when you have the most talent. Like any other strategy, it's not 100% full-proof. When the shots aren't falling, we're gonna have some close games. I stand by my earlier assertion that this team is ripe to get upset. But, listening to Fran Fraschilla say we need to slow it down and work the ball around more after just listening to Rose say in the pre-game interview that the US was going to push the pace made me chuckle. I mean, if the US had slowed it down and hunted better shots, we would have heard how Turkey imposed its will on the US, by getting them to play slower. K's not going to give in that easily. We will play fast in every game and at times it's gonna be ugly.

roywhite
09-02-2014, 12:42 PM
Right. Our style of play is to maximize the number of possessions by playing at a fast pace. That's what you do when you have the most talent. Like any other strategy, it's not 100% full-proof. When the shots aren't falling, we're gonna have some close games. I stand by my earlier assertion that this team is ripe to get upset. But, listening to Fran Fraschilla say we need to slow it down and work the ball around more after just listening to Rose say in the pre-game interview that the US was going to push the pace made me chuckle. I mean, if the US had slowed it down and hunted better shots, we would have heard how Turkey imposed its will on the US, by getting them to play slower. K's not going to give in that easily. We will play fast in every game and at times it's gonna be ugly.

Seems to me that there was a significant adjustment in the offense after half-time in the Turkey game. Much more emphasis on getting the ball inside, esp. to involve Anthony Davis. Move fast, but work "inside out" when possible on offense, more touches inside and let the big men throw it out to the perimeter for open shots when available.

MChambers
09-02-2014, 12:47 PM
My first thought was that we need to thrash New Zealand for having cut Nick Horvath.

Then I saw this:

4317

I know the sun shines at a different time of year in New Zealand, but the sun does shine there, right?

Anyway, then I remembered Nick was a physics major at Duke, and things clarified.

So I'm back to we need to thrash New Zealand for having cut Nick Horvath.

P.S. Trivia tidbit: In addition to playing basketball in New Zealand, Nick still teaches secondary school physics. He's built a nice life for himself, and I wish him the best.
Actually, we should be glad the Tall Blacks cut Horvath, because there were pickup game reports that he was absolutely schooling Davis and the other U.S. bigs.

JasonEvans
09-02-2014, 01:09 PM
Midway through the 4th quarter, the US leads NZ 88-57. We only led 27-20 at the end of 1 qtr but blew it open in 2nd and led by 22 at halftime.

Faried and Davis continue to dominate teams on the inside. Davis has 21 points and 9 rebounds while Faried has 15 points and 11 boards. Harden has 13 and Steph has 12. Harden has been great at getting inside and ending up shooting FTs (6-8 from the line so far). Kyrie has 7 points on 3-6 shooting with a team-leading 3 steals. Rose has struggled, just 1-6 from the field for 3 total points.

-Jason "tomorrow we have a decent Domincan Republic team, formerly coach by Cal and now coached by Orlando Antigua" Evans

HaveFunExpectToWin
09-02-2014, 02:45 PM
Midway through the 4th quarter, the US leads NZ 88-57. We only led 27-20 at the end of 1 qtr but blew it open in 2nd and led by 22 at halftime.

Faried and Davis continue to dominate teams on the inside. Davis has 21 points and 9 rebounds while Faried has 15 points and 11 boards. Harden has 13 and Steph has 12. Harden has been great at getting inside and ending up shooting FTs (6-8 from the line so far). Kyrie has 7 points on 3-6 shooting with a team-leading 3 steals. Rose has struggled, just 1-6 from the field for 3 total points.

-Jason "tomorrow we have a decent Domincan Republic team, formerly coach by Cal and now coached by Orlando Antigua" Evans

Planning to watch the game later tonight, but I'm assuming this amazing performance threw us off our game in the 1st. I think every basketball game should start with a dance off from now on.


http://youtu.be/77JplAz5aTE

Duvall
09-02-2014, 02:56 PM
I think every basketball game should start with a dance off from now on.

Well...perhaps not.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ7o5sXvbLg

ChillinDuke
09-02-2014, 03:05 PM
Planning to watch the game later tonight, but I'm assuming this amazing performance threw us off our game in the 1st. I think every basketball game should start with a dance off from now on.


http://youtu.be/77JplAz5aTE

Is that serious? Is that some sort of ritualistic dance? I've never seen anything like that in such prominent form all the way out to half court, completely synchronized and planned, and with intensity. Front and center for the whole stadium to see and even crossing half court at the end onto the opposing team's side. Team USA seemed to take it in stride and even applauded, so I assume it's known that New Zealand does this before every game.

Still. Very bizarre, IMO. Very, very bizarre.

- Chillin

Ichabod Drain
09-02-2014, 03:13 PM
Is that serious? Is that some sort of ritualistic dance? I've never seen anything like that in such prominent form all the way out to half court, completely synchronized and planned, and with intensity. Front and center for the whole stadium to see and even crossing half court at the end onto the opposing team's side. Team USA seemed to take it in stride and even applauded, so I assume it's known that New Zealand does this before every game.

Still. Very bizarre, IMO. Very, very bizarre.

- Chillin

It's the Haka and a lot of New Zealand national teams do it. The All Blacks (Rugby) is the main reason it's famous, but I've seen soccer and basketball do it as well.

Here's is the All Blacks (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eybwV2OFaWg) performing it in 2012.

dball
09-02-2014, 03:18 PM
Is that serious? Is that some sort of ritualistic dance? I've never seen anything like that in such prominent form all the way out to half court, completely synchronized and planned, and with intensity. Front and center for the whole stadium to see and even crossing half court at the end onto the opposing team's side. Team USA seemed to take it in stride and even applauded, so I assume it's known that New Zealand does this before every game.

Still. Very bizarre, IMO. Very, very bizarre.

- Chillin

The Haka is a Maori challenge. The Maori are the indigenous people of New Zealand and the Maori language is one of the official languages of the country.

The basketball team has always done this. Seen it against other teams in FIBA events and Olympics.

ChillinDuke
09-02-2014, 03:31 PM
The Haka is a Maori challenge. The Maori are the indigenous people of New Zealand and the Maori language is one of the official languages of the country.

The basketball team has always done this. Seen it against other teams in FIBA events and Olympics.

Very interesting. And entertaining.

But I have to assume most of the players on the team are not Maori.

Still find it a bit out of place.

- Chillin

flyingdutchdevil
09-02-2014, 03:41 PM
Very interesting. And entertaining.

But I have to assume most of the players on the team are not Maori.

Still find it a bit out of place.

- Chillin

Why? It's an important part of Maori/New Zealand culture. It's like every Latin American soccer player bending over, touching the ground, and performing the sign of the cross. Sports ritual/culture is one of many great things about sports.

CDu
09-02-2014, 04:43 PM
Midway through the 4th quarter, the US leads NZ 88-57. We only led 27-20 at the end of 1 qtr but blew it open in 2nd and led by 22 at halftime.

Faried and Davis continue to dominate teams on the inside. Davis has 21 points and 9 rebounds while Faried has 15 points and 11 boards. Harden has 13 and Steph has 12. Harden has been great at getting inside and ending up shooting FTs (6-8 from the line so far). Kyrie has 7 points on 3-6 shooting with a team-leading 3 steals. Rose has struggled, just 1-6 from the field for 3 total points.

-Jason "tomorrow we have a decent Domincan Republic team, formerly coach by Cal and now coached by Orlando Antigua" Evans

Just finished watching the game:

Some notes:
- Anthony Davis and Kenneth Faried have just carried this team, and today was no different
- The starting PG today was effectively James Harden, with Curry and Irving playing off ball
- Interestingly, the starting PG in the 3rd quarter was Rose, with Curry and Harden off ball
- Both Rose and Irving showed some peskiness and quick hands on defense. Irving got 4 steals and almost a 5th; Rose got 3 (though for some reason the box score credited him with just 1), forced a jump-ball, and knocked a pass out of bounds (couldn't quite hold it for the steal).
- The half-court offense looked a little bit better. Emphasis on a little bit. It was still pretty bad. But turnovers and transition made the difference again.
- Nobody in this tourney gets more offense out of less opportunity than Faried. He is just all-out hustle all the time.
- Harden was again the most effective guard at passing off the dribble in half-court. Our theoretical PG have shown no interest in passing off the dribble so far
- The time off doesn't seem to have resulted in an improved jumpshot for Rose. His missed shots were almost all on jumpers of 18 feet or more. He was 1-5 from 15 feet or more in this game. His ability to explode off the dribble still appears to be there, but the international game is just not conducive to driving. So he has seemed pretty passive in the half-court so far.

Still waiting to see what we do against good competition. We just haven't faced a team that compete with us for 40 minutes so far. There are only a handful of teams that can compete with us for 40 minutes. I have a feeling that a lot of our coming games will look like this one. The stronger teams seem to all be on the other side.

ChillinDuke
09-02-2014, 05:11 PM
Why? It's an important part of Maori/New Zealand culture. It's like every Latin American soccer player bending over, touching the ground, and performing the sign of the cross. Sports ritual/culture is one of many great things about sports.

It's not like every Latin American soccer player because:

1) Their performing the sign of the cross is (presumably) because that is their religion. Is every player on the New Zealand national team Maori?;
2) Performing the sign of the cross takes all of 1.5 seconds while that YouTube video is 1 minute, 9 seconds;
3) Performing the sign of the cross does not draw the attention (intentions notwithstanding) of the entire viewing audience (and opposing team) away from the contest at hand;
4) Performing the sign of the cross is a singular act whereas New Zealand performed a team act that was outwardly provocative toward the other team.

Listen, I agree that ritual and culture are a great part of sports. And I'm not trying to be insensitive to New Zealand/Maori culture. But I clearly do not liken this 1+ minute team dance out onto center court at the World Cup of basketball to a singular soccer player's fleeting ritual. Nor would I liken it to any other sports ritual that I have ever seen - granted, I have not been exposed to a vast amount of international sports in my lifetime.

All I'm saying is such a dance is both interesting and bizarre. Feel free to disagree.

- Chillin

Henderson
09-02-2014, 05:49 PM
All I'm saying is such a dance is both interesting and bizarre.


Apparently quite ineffective too.

What seems odd about it to me is that it's so directed at the opposing team. "And now, ladies and gentlemen, please enjoy a minute of culturally-significant trash talking."

wilson
09-02-2014, 07:34 PM
Another very good all-around performance from the team today. I think it's especially neat that Kenneth Faried is turning out to be a revelation of sorts. The ESPN game story (http://espn.go.com/olympics/basketball/story/_/id/11453461/fiba-basketball-world-cup-united-states-beats-new-zealand-moves-3-0)says that Faried "seems intent on raising his profile as a largely overlooked player in the league," which may end up being kind of a secret weapon for this USA team. On paper, it's certainly not the most imposing USA roster of recent vintage, but the one thing perhaps lacking in the more star-laden teams has been desire. Faried seems to have that in spades, particularly an asset in a tournament where athletic size is at something of a premium.

Henderson
09-02-2014, 07:58 PM
Another very good all-around performance from the team today. I think it's especially neat that Kenneth Faried is turning out to be a revelation of sorts. The ESPN game story (http://espn.go.com/olympics/basketball/story/_/id/11453461/fiba-basketball-world-cup-united-states-beats-new-zealand-moves-3-0)says that Faried "seems intent on raising his profile as a largely overlooked player in the league," which may end up being kind of a secret weapon for this USA team. On paper, it's certainly not the most imposing USA roster of recent vintage, but the one thing perhaps lacking in the more star-laden teams has been desire. Faried seems to have that in spades, particularly an asset in a tournament where athletic size is at something of a premium.

Good post. I hadn't seen Faried or Bennett play that much, but color me impressed. They both really work hard, and they (with Harden) are carrying the offense. The defense is playing havoc with other teams' offenses by shutting off passing lanes (most of the time), so that's where I credit the guard play. Mason has played limited minutes and hasn't impressed me. He got caught out of position on a couple defensive sets today and got burned. I don't have his FT stats for the tourney, but he's looked pretty good shooting the ones I've seen.

Like others, I keep looking at the half-court offense and wondering what the plan is. Then I look at the scoreboard and see that something is very much working. The offensive rebounding and creation of offense off defense have generated a lot of points.

It's a shame we won't see Karl Towns tomorrow. It could be that Calipari is selfishly holding him out, but it's also possible that he's preserving his ability to play for Team USA one day. There was a discussion here regarding his eligibility, given that he played for the Dominican team in U-ball. But I think the result of that discussion was an understanding that his international play to date would not bar his eligibility for Team USA. Playing in the World Cup certainly would. He'd have to play for DR forever or not at all in major FIBA events. It's also possible that Cal said something like, "Your decision, but I don't want you to, and you'll kill your Team USA eligibility forever." Kind of a mix of the two explanations I could come up with for his not suiting up tomorrow.

_Gary
09-02-2014, 08:30 PM
- The starting PG today was effectively James Harden, with Curry and Irving playing off ball
- Interestingly, the starting PG in the 3rd quarter was Rose, with Curry and Harden off ball
- Harden was again the most effective guard at passing off the dribble in half-court. Our theoretical PG have shown no interest in passing off the dribble so far


I disagree with all the points above. Harden wasn't the PG today. He didn't handle the offense more than Kyrie. Kyrie should have had at least half a dozen assists today, as he did make some nice entry passes and perimeter passes to open men. There were simply too many missed shots and/or hard fouls (on the inside passes) that prevented more assists. But he's not been the black hole that some are painting him out to be. Not at all. He's not looking for his shot all that much, but instead has made a concerted effort to get the ball to the bigs or wings.

On defense, he was a one man wrecking crew. He got his hand on a lot more than the 4 steals he was credited with. He disrupted plenty today in that regard.

To be honest, I just think there's a little biased viewing going on because Kyrie did exactly what I said he would do - beat out Rose for the starting point guard spot. And this has ruffled some feathers with folks who prefer someone else in that role. But no way should we be nitpicking Irving's game in this World Cup. He's been quite good. Before today he had a 3 to 1 assist to turnover margin, and he's shot the ball just fine as well. He deserves more respect than he's getting here. And it's not just because this is a Duke board. It's because he's been very solid as the starting PG.

roywhite
09-02-2014, 08:48 PM
Good post. I hadn't seen Faried or Bennett play that much, but color me impressed. They both really work hard, and they (with Harden) are carrying the offense. The defense is playing havoc with other teams' offenses by shutting off passing lanes (most of the time), so that's where I credit the guard play.

Bennett?

Anthony Bennett -- #1 overall draft choice 2013
Anthony Davis -- #1 overall draft choice 2012

And same first name obviously, but otherwise they're not very similar :)

awhom111
09-02-2014, 09:15 PM
Good post. I hadn't seen Faried or Bennett play that much, but color me impressed. They both really work hard, and they (with Harden) are carrying the offense. The defense is playing havoc with other teams' offenses by shutting off passing lanes (most of the time), so that's where I credit the guard play. Mason has played limited minutes and hasn't impressed me. He got caught out of position on a couple defensive sets today and got burned. I don't have his FT stats for the tourney, but he's looked pretty good shooting the ones I've seen.

Like others, I keep looking at the half-court offense and wondering what the plan is. Then I look at the scoreboard and see that something is very much working. The offensive rebounding and creation of offense off defense have generated a lot of points.

It's a shame we won't see Karl Towns tomorrow. It could be that Calipari is selfishly holding him out, but it's also possible that he's preserving his ability to play for Team USA one day. There was a discussion here regarding his eligibility, given that he played for the Dominican team in U-ball. But I think the result of that discussion was an understanding that his international play to date would not bar his eligibility for Team USA. Playing in the World Cup certainly would. He'd have to play for DR forever or not at all in major FIBA events. It's also possible that Cal said something like, "Your decision, but I don't want you to, and you'll kill your Team USA eligibility forever." Kind of a mix of the two explanations I could come up with for his not suiting up tomorrow.

Towns already played for the senior team last summer to qualify them for this tournament:
http://www.fibaamericas.com/en/torneos_roster.asp?t=GWXNEOLEOJ&team=274&n=Dominican%20Republic&c=DOM&xtab=3

My suspicion is that he was not viewed as an important enough person for this roster to miss school for this. Another Kentucky guy, Eloy Vargas has been putting up big numbers at the 4 for them this tournament.



I mentioned the Haka every single time New Zealand playing the United States has come up in a thread, so I feel like everyone should have had adequate warning that it would be coming. I even linked up a video of Nick Horvath performing in one earlier this summer.



Groups C and D were in action with A and B taking a rest day.

Group C games started with shorthanded Ukraine grinding out a 64-58 win over Turkey as Pooh Jeter had 10 points and 6 assists. In the loss, Omer Asik had 16 points and 20 rebounds and Emir Preldzic had 14 points and 7 rebounds. The Dominican Republic ended the day holding off Finland 74-68. In the win, Eloy Vargas had 18 points and 13 rebounds, Francisco Garcia had 16 points, Eulis Baez had 12 points and 9 rebounds, and James Feldeine had 10 points and 6 assists. In the loss, Petteri Koponen had 23 points and 9 assists.
Standings: United States 3-0, Ukraine 2-1, Dominican Republic 2-1, Turkey 1-2, Finland 1-2, New Zealand 0-3.

The group is still wide open behind the United States, with the two win teams still having to face the Americans. Ukraine can eliminate New Zealand by beating them in the first game on Wednesday.

In Group D, Mexico won a key matchup with Angola 79-55 by controlling the final three quarters, which could be enough to help them move on. In the win, Hector Hernandez had 24 points, Gustavo Ayon had 17 points and 12 rebounds, Francisco Cruz had 14 points and 7 rebounds, and Roman Martinez had 12 points. In the loss, Yanick Moreira had 13 points and 9 rebounds and Valdelicio Joaquim had 13 points. Marty and Lithuania could not recover from an early deficit this time and lost 82-75 to Australia. Marty had 6 points in 26 minutes. Renaldas Seibutis had 21 points. In the win, Aron Baynes had 14 points and 6 rebounds, Matthew Dellavedova had 13 points, and Brad Newley had 10 points. Slovenia finally managed to pull away from South Korea in the second half for an 89-72 win as Goran Dragic had 22 points.
Standings: Slovenia 3-0, Australia 2-1, Lithuania 2-1, Mexico 1-2, Angola 1-2, South Korea 0-3.

Slovenia has advanced with Lithuania in solid position to join them. Australia advances with a win in either of their games. Mexico will probably be fine although they may not clinch until the final game.


Title change for the next game: USA vs Dominican Republic 9/3 3:30pm EDT ESPN2/3

CDu
09-02-2014, 09:35 PM
I disagree with all the points above. Harden wasn't the PG today. He didn't handle the offense more than Kyrie. Kyrie should have had at least half a dozen assists today, as he did make some nice entry passes and perimeter passes to open men. There were simply too many missed shots and/or hard fouls (on the inside passes) that prevented more assists. But he's not been the black hole that some are painting him out to be. Not at all. He's not looking for his shot all that much, but instead has made a concerted effort to get the ball to the bigs or wings.

On defense, he was a one man wrecking crew. He got his hand on a lot more than the 4 steals he was credited with. He disrupted plenty today in that regard.

To be honest, I just think there's a little biased viewing going on because Kyrie did exactly what I said he would do - beat out Rose for the starting point guard spot. And this has ruffled some feathers with folks who prefer someone else in that role. But no way should we be nitpicking Irving's game in this World Cup. He's been quite good. Before today he had a 3 to 1 assist to turnover margin, and he's shot the ball just fine as well. He deserves more respect than he's getting here. And it's not just because this is a Duke board. It's because he's been very solid as the starting PG.

Yeah, I am going to disagree with almost all of this (except that Irving beat out Rose of course - kudos to you so far for that). And I think it is your viewpoint that is biased in favor of Irving, for the exact opposite reasons that you have accused me of bias.

Harden was unquestionably running the half-court offense in the first half. I watched it live and re-watched it. And outside of fast breaks, Irving has almost exclusively looked for his own shot. Yes, Irving was terrific defensively today (as I said), as was Rose.

It is also unquestionably true that Rose started the second half at PG. I didn't say he played it great (in fact I said the opposite in one of the bullets you listed), but he absolutely did start the second half at PG.

Don't get me wrong, Irving has been solid. Just not as a PG running the offense. His effectiveness has been primarily in the fast break. In the half court he has been pedestrian, which is evidenced by him trailing Harden comfortably in assists. When play settles into the half court, it has been Harden initiating/creating the offense.

I am not writing this out of bias. Rose has not played well offensively and I readily admit that. I was wrong to trust the coachspeak out of camp. Clearly Irving has played better. But neither has played well at PG (Irving mediocre, Rose worse). The reality is that Irving has been a good scorer but has not run the half court offense well so far, and today he was moved off ball in the first half.

_Gary
09-02-2014, 09:50 PM
Yeah, I am going to disagree with almost all of this (except that Irving beat out Rose of course - kudos to you so far for that).

All I'm saying is that Irving is not a black hole in the half-court offense, which is what it seems like you are saying. I've seen him drive into the lane (in the half court) with the express purpose of getting Davis, Plumlee & Cousins a shot after drawing the defender to himself. I've also seen him drive and kick to Curry, Gay and Harden for open threes which they've often missed. Just bad luck in terms of assist totals, imho. But I've seen him do it more than just once or twice. Is he a prototypical pass first PG? No, and I'd never make the argument that he is. But I do think he's trying to facilitate the offense, doing what he's able to do best - break down off the dribble. If we are looking for him to stay perimeter and just swing the ball then that's a terrible use, or lack of use, of his abilities.

Am I biased toward a Dukie? Sure. But I honestly do think you aren't giving him enough credit. So we'll just have to agree to disagree. :)

CDu
09-02-2014, 09:59 PM
All I'm saying is that Irving is not a black hole in the half-court offense, which is what it seems like you are saying. I've seen him drive into the lane (in the half court) with the express purpose of getting Davis, Plumblee & Cousins a shot after drawing the defender to himself. I've also seen him drive and kick to Curry, Gay and Harden for open threes which they've often missed. Just bad luck in terms of assist totals, imho. But I've seen him do it more than just once or twice. Is he a prototypical pass first PG? No, and I'd never make the argument that he is. But I do think he's trying to facilitate the offense, doing what he's able to do best - break down off the dribble. If we are looking for him to stay perimeter and just swing the ball then that's a terrible use, or lack of use, of his abilities.

Am I biased toward a Dukie? Sure. But I honestly do think you aren't giving him enough credit. So we'll just have to agree to disagree. :)

I am not saying that Irving is a black hole. Just that he hasn't done a good job of creating offense for others in the half court thus far. Nor has Rose. Aside from transition, both have been playing as score-first players so far (with Irving having notably more success at it than Rose). Irving has been valuable - just not as a PG running the half-court offense.

The guy who has been the most consistent in terms of creating for others has been Harden. He hasn't been elite at it, but he is leading the team in assists in the tourney so far. And I would venture that he leads by a larger margin in half-court assists.

Zeb
09-02-2014, 10:03 PM
I agree with all of the positive reviews of Faried's play. What's interesting about him is how effective he is despite, or maybe because, he's the opposite of a typical FIBA big. He can't shoot the three, space the court or pass; he just lurks down low, getting it dumped to him or stealing offensive rebounds. Yet his combination of speed , hops and strength just doesn't exist on any other international roster (maybe Ibaka, but he can shoot). I was worried manimal would match up poorly with FIBA, but FIBA matches up poorly with him. And he fits perfectly with a USA offense that looks to force turnovers, run, and not let defenses get set up. He's been a revelation. I bet Tim Connelly (Nuggets GM) wishes he'd gotten an extension signed earlier this year. Kenneth is making himself more money this week.

Newton_14
09-02-2014, 10:26 PM
All I'm saying is that Irving is not a black hole in the half-court offense, which is what it seems like you are saying. I've seen him drive into the lane (in the half court) with the express purpose of getting Davis, Plumlee & Cousins a shot after drawing the defender to himself. I've also seen him drive and kick to Curry, Gay and Harden for open threes which they've often missed. Just bad luck in terms of assist totals, imho. But I've seen him do it more than just once or twice. Is he a prototypical pass first PG? No, and I'd never make the argument that he is. But I do think he's trying to facilitate the offense, doing what he's able to do best - break down off the dribble. If we are looking for him to stay perimeter and just swing the ball then that's a terrible use, or lack of use, of his abilities.

Am I biased toward a Dukie? Sure. But I honestly do think you aren't giving him enough credit. So we'll just have to agree to disagree. :)

You are missing the point Gary, pun intended. Kyrie is great. No doubt. However he is not a facilitator and that is his Achilles Heel as both a NBA and National team player. He is score first, pass second driven, and honestly he needs to change. He has to change actually. The guy is the best finisher on the planet amongst his peer's in PG's but he simply does not do a good job yet of getting others involved, and racking up assists before racking up points. He is also way better defensively than he gets credited with. However, when the day comes that he gets just as much enjoyment setting up a teammate for an easy score as he does finishing in traffic or hitting a dagger 3, he will go to another level. He is not there yet.

Great player? Check All World Ball Handler? Check Great Shooter? Check Great finisher at the rim? Double Check. Great passer/facilitator/vision/orchestrator? Nope.

Thus Harden facilitating and Kyrie playing off the ball in half court. If Kyrie never figures out how to do the last item on the list he will still go down as a great player, but he could go down as All World Player if he does figure out that last item on the list. There is no reason why he can't check off that item, which is frustrating to be honest. He has the talent. The ball handling alone should make him better at facilitating. He gets where he wants when he wants like a magician.

Billy Dat
09-02-2014, 11:55 PM
I was worried manimal would match up poorly with FIBA, but FIBA matches up poorly with him. And he fits perfectly with a USA offense that looks to force turnovers, run, and not let defenses get set up. He's been a revelation.

GREAT line about fit. Faried is clearly the biggest and best surprise. As others have said, he and Davis have been amazing, which makes the other primary topic so painful....

I enjoyed CDu and Gary's PG debate. I didn't see the first 5 minutes of the game, but my viewing matched more of Gary's impression in that I saw Kyrie on the ball and doing a lot more setting up of others, or at least attempting to, than I had seen in the past. I do agree with the critiques of Kyrie still not being a true set-up PG, but I thought he tried a lot harder tonight to do so, at least in the first half. K praised Rose post-game but I still think he looks lost. Starting him in the second half seemed like they are doing everything they can to activate him but it feels like he's really pressing - which is to be expected but still hard to watch. The true PG vacuum continues, but right now Kyrie is playing a much more prominent role on this team. The headline, though, is that no one is getting the ball to Davis enough...not even close. When Davis gets touches and draws attention, he scores and when he doesn't, Faried cleans up the miss. As Frashilla said on the broadcast, right now, the big are a strength and we need to sharpen the guards.

[Quick aside, the second half was 20 minutes of meaningless garbage time so any comments I make are directed at the first half. I don't really feel good about anything that happened in the second half save for the fact that the effort was fine. The ball movement, shot selection, turnovers, and weak half court defense didn't leave me on a high note.]

Just on feel alone, Harden seems like a solo artist on offense, but I can't refute the assist #s. Curry and Thompson are such gunners, and I feel like Curry is very sloppy with the ball and fouls alot, but K praised both of their defense.

I don't feel like we got better today. We jumped all over a weak team early, which is good, but we played sloppy. I am glad that the weaker teams of the pool are behind us, better competition will make us sharper, kind of like Q4 against Turkey. Still, I love watching these games and he evolution of the team.

Did anyone catch, on the broadcast, that this World Cup is going to start a qualification process like the FIFA World Cup with qualification games during the NBA regular season. They want to get away from the FIFA World Cup on the calendar so the next FIBA World Cup will be in 5 years and will include the revised qualification process. That should force Colangelo and USA Basketball to adjust how they organize everything. Or, maybe they'll build international breaks into the NBA season - but I can't imagine the owners going for that uness they make a big chunk of change. I am really interested in how that will evolve.

awhom111
09-03-2014, 01:10 AM
GREAT line about fit. Faried is clearly the biggest and best surprise. As others have said, he and Davis have been amazing, which makes the other primary topic so painful....

I enjoyed CDu and Gary's PG debate. I didn't see the first 5 minutes of the game, but my viewing matched more of Gary's impression in that I saw Kyrie on the ball and doing a lot more setting up of others, or at least attempting to, than I had seen in the past. I do agree with the critiques of Kyrie still not being a true set-up PG, but I thought he tried a lot harder tonight to do so, at least in the first half. K praised Rose post-game but I still think he looks lost. Starting him in the second half seemed like they are doing everything they can to activate him but it feels like he's really pressing - which is to be expected but still hard to watch. The true PG vacuum continues, but right now Kyrie is playing a much more prominent role on this team. The headline, though, is that no one is getting the ball to Davis enough...not even close. When Davis gets touches and draws attention, he scores and when he doesn't, Faried cleans up the miss. As Frashilla said on the broadcast, right now, the big are a strength and we need to sharpen the guards.

[Quick aside, the second half was 20 minutes of meaningless garbage time so any comments I make are directed at the first half. I don't really feel good about anything that happened in the second half save for the fact that the effort was fine. The ball movement, shot selection, turnovers, and weak half court defense didn't leave me on a high note.]

Just on feel alone, Harden seems like a solo artist on offense, but I can't refute the assist #s. Curry and Thompson are such gunners, and I feel like Curry is very sloppy with the ball and fouls alot, but K praised both of their defense.

I don't feel like we got better today. We jumped all over a weak team early, which is good, but we played sloppy. I am glad that the weaker teams of the pool are behind us, better competition will make us sharper, kind of like Q4 against Turkey. Still, I love watching these games and he evolution of the team.

Did anyone catch, on the broadcast, that this World Cup is going to start a qualification process like the FIFA World Cup with qualification games during the NBA regular season. They want to get away from the FIFA World Cup on the calendar so the next FIBA World Cup will be in 5 years and will include the revised qualification process. That should force Colangelo and USA Basketball to adjust how they organize everything. Or, maybe they'll build international breaks into the NBA season - but I can't imagine the owners going for that uness they make a big chunk of change. I am really interested in how that will evolve.

They did announce the qualification change last year. There is not a lot of support for it worldwide, so I would not be surprised if it ends up being scrapped in the next few years so I would hold on and not overthink it at this point.

JasonEvans
09-03-2014, 01:39 AM
All I'm saying is such a dance is both interesting and bizarre. Feel free to disagree.

Chillin, I am going to guess that you are both young (probably under 25) and that you have watched very, very little international team sports in your life. That is really the only explanation I can come up with for you having no idea what the Haka is. Though the NZ Rugby guys are most famous for it, pretty much all the New Zealand national teams have been doing it for decades. It was first performed at a sporting event more than 100 years ago. Your incredulity at it is more than a little amusing to those of us who have been aware of it for many, many years.

Also, the earlier linked video has been taken down so here is the official FIBA video of today's Haka.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDucvQYlWj4

-Jason "the rugby guys, who are among the best teams in the world and a threat to win every time they step on the pitch, do it better" Evans

tux
09-03-2014, 09:31 AM
You are missing the point Gary, pun intended. Kyrie is great. No doubt. However he is not a facilitator and that is his Achilles Heel as both a NBA and National team player. He is score first, pass second driven, and honestly he needs to change. He has to change actually. The guy is the best finisher on the planet amongst his peer's in PG's but he simply does not do a good job yet of getting others involved, and racking up assists before racking up points. He is also way better defensively than he gets credited with. However, when the day comes that he gets just as much enjoyment setting up a teammate for an easy score as he does finishing in traffic or hitting a dagger 3, he will go to another level. He is not there yet.

Great player? Check All World Ball Handler? Check Great Shooter? Check Great finisher at the rim? Double Check. Great passer/facilitator/vision/orchestrator? Nope.

Thus Harden facilitating and Kyrie playing off the ball in half court. If Kyrie never figures out how to do the last item on the list he will still go down as a great player, but he could go down as All World Player if he does figure out that last item on the list. There is no reason why he can't check off that item, which is frustrating to be honest. He has the talent. The ball handling alone should make him better at facilitating. He gets where he wants when he wants like a magician.


While I generally agree with this assessment of Kyrie's game, I think Harden having the ball is more a function of K's plan to make him the central perimeter option once Durant bowed out. I.e., I don't think it's really a statement about deficiencies in Kyrie's or Rose's games, although everyone knows that they are more likely to generate their own offense as opposed to setting up teammates. I think Kyrie has tried to move the ball quite a bit, and I agree with Gary that assist numbers can be easily skewed in these types of (blowout) games. I wouldn't read too much into those numbers. Okay, I just looked and Harden had 4 assists and Kyrie had 2, so yeah... whatever.

I don't think K is thinking of this offense in terms of a traditional PG facilitating in the half court. Kyrie, Curry, Harden, Rose --- all are bringing the ball up and initiating the action; and there are a lot of dribble hand-offs to Harden on the wing. "Half court offense" is a secondary or even tertiary concern IMO.

That said, I agree with the thoughts above that getting the ball into Davis and Faried should be options 1a and 1b. Those guys have been great, while the perimeter guys have been up and down (hot and cold) with a handful of sloppy passes thrown in. The lack of time playing together seems to show up in team defense and turnovers IMO.

HaveFunExpectToWin
09-03-2014, 09:38 AM
Chillin, I am going to guess that you are both young (probably under 25) and that you have watched very, very little international team sports in your life. That is really the only explanation I can come up with for you having no idea what the Haka is. Though the NZ Rugby guys are most famous for it, pretty much all the New Zealand national teams have been doing it for decades. It was first performed at a sporting event more than 100 years ago. Your incredulity at it is more than a little amusing to those of us who have been aware of it for many, many years.

Also, the earlier linked video has been taken down so here is the official FIBA video of today's Haka.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDucvQYlWj4

-Jason "the rugby guys, who are among the best teams in the world and a threat to win every time they step on the pitch, do it better" Evans

I still think the US team should have responded with some krumping. You know Cousins has some sick moves.

sagegrouse
09-03-2014, 09:45 AM
While I generally agree with this assessment of Kyrie's game, I think Harden having the ball is more a function of K's plan to make him the central perimeter option once Durant bowed out. I.e., I don't think it's really a statement about deficiencies in Kyrie's or Rose's games, although everyone knows that they are more likely to generate their own offense as opposed to setting up teammates. I think Kyrie has tried to move the ball quite a bit, and I agree with Gary that assist numbers can be easily skewed in these types of (blowout) games. I wouldn't read too much into those numbers. Okay, I just looked and Harden had 4 assists and Kyrie had 2, so yeah... whatever.

I don't think K is thinking of this offense in terms of a traditional PG facilitating in the half court. Kyrie, Curry, Harden, Rose --- all are bringing the ball up and initiating the action; and there are a lot of dribble hand-offs to Harden on the wing. "Half court offense" is a secondary or even tertiary concern IMO.

That said, I agree with the thoughts above that getting the ball into Davis and Faried should be options 1a and 1b. Those guys have been great, while the perimeter guys have been up and down (hot and cold) with a handful of sloppy passes thrown in. The lack of time playing together seems to show up in team defense and turnovers IMO.

I see this problem as beyond an X-and-O issue about who handles the ball. James Harden is one of the three or four best players in the world. He is by far the most accomplished player on Team USA, and K expects him to lead the offense -- think Michael Jordan in 1992. To me, Kyrie is playing really inspired basketball on both offense and defense, the latter a bit unexpected to some observers here and elsewhere.

I am disappointed in some of the commentary here about Kyrie, more because of attitude not facts, but I am also disappointed that he only played 11 games for Duke, and we were probably one toe injury away from an undefeated season.

Billy Dat
09-03-2014, 10:10 AM
I still think the US team should have responded with some krumping. You know Cousins has some sick moves.

I think the world would be more fun if more groups performed Hakas at basically any time. If you want to go down a fun YouTube rabbit hole, check out all the hakas, especially flash mob hakas. This seem like a natural innovation for those looking to do unique choreographed wedding dances. A bride and bridesmaids haka would likely tear the roof off the reception.

This sort of approximates it, but I guess females aren't traditionally supposed to haka
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqf0XB_AWmg

_Gary
09-03-2014, 10:15 AM
I see this problem as beyond an X-and-O issue about who handles the ball. James Harden is one of the three or four best players in the world. He is by far the most accomplished player on Team USA, and K expects him to lead the offense -- think Michael Jordan in 1992. To me, Kyrie is playing really inspired basketball on both offense and defense, the latter a bit unexpected to some observers here and elsewhere.

I am disappointed in some of the commentary here about Kyrie, more because of attitude not facts, but I am also disappointed that he only played 11 games for Duke, and we were probably one toe injury away from an undefeated season.

I picked this post to respond to because it most accurately reflects my thoughts on our discussion about Kyrie. I know some of you think Kyrie hasn't passed the ball well, or looked to pass it, and I simply disagree. Again, I'm not saying he's the next John Stockton or Chris Paul, but I do think he's getting the short end of the stick from some of the commentary here. He has looked to dribble drive and dish to the bigs. And he has found open outside shooters. I still say a part of the problem with lack of assists is more about our bigs getting fouled hard after a nifty pass from Kyrie. And I've seen both Harden and Curry miss some very makeable threes after nice passes from Kyrie as well. This is why you can't just look at stats. I watch the game and keep an eye on Kyrie in particular. And I just disagree with some of my brethren here that he's too focused on scoring and not looking to set others up. Again, we'll have to agree to disagree.

CDu
09-03-2014, 10:23 AM
I see this problem as beyond an X-and-O issue about who handles the ball. James Harden is one of the three or four best players in the world. He is by far the most accomplished player on Team USA, and K expects him to lead the offense -- think Michael Jordan in 1992. To me, Kyrie is playing really inspired basketball on both offense and defense, the latter a bit unexpected to some observers here and elsewhere.

I am disappointed in some of the commentary here about Kyrie, more because of attitude not facts, but I am also disappointed that he only played 11 games for Duke, and we were probably one toe injury away from an undefeated season.

I suppose this "disappointment" is directed at least in part at me. If so, I honestly don't understand why. I've not disparaged Irving at all in this thread. He has played very well at times in this tournament. I've only critiqued one aspect of his game (half-court playmaking) - an area of his game that is known to be an issue and has been a limitation of his in this tournament. It seems like folks are perhaps being just a little too sensitive to any sort of criticism of a former Duke player.

I want nothing more than for Irving to play unequivocally well (except when it is against my Bulls :D). But I feel it's fair to point out both the good and the bad. People have seemed only willing to discuss the good for Irving (and there has been plenty of that too), so I've noted where the not-so-good has been present. Irving is certainly not alone in that. In fact, I will revise my statement about Harden after watching again, because even he has not looked consistently good in creating half-court offense. So basically none of our guards have done well in running the half-court offense.

Perhaps it's just that the coaching staff hasn't put together a good half-court offense. Maybe it's just too many talented individual players used to creating for themselves. Maybe it is just lack of comfort with the international style of defense. But for whatever reason, our half-court offense hasn't looked good, and our guards haven't looked good running it. Almost every half-court possession has devolved into an isolation play (either a perimeter guy or a post-up).

Where our guards have been fantastic (and Irving is absolutely among the leaders here) is getting out in transition. When we can run, we score easily. But aside from that, it's been Davis and Faried mopping up the mediocre play by rebounding, hustling, and finishing in the paint.

And that formula will work against the lesser teams in the tournament (obviously, as we've won each game very easily). But when we get to the medal rounds, we are likely to face a much more disciplined team that won't let us run over them athletically (especially if the opponent is Spain). I think we're going to need better half court offense to win the championship, and I think that's going to require better play in the half-court. It's my opinion that the guards (Irving included) are going to be the key to that. They are going to have to play better than they have so far.

Billy Dat
09-03-2014, 10:39 AM
And that formula will work against the lesser teams in the tournament (obviously, as we've won each game very easily). But when we get to the medal rounds, we are likely to face a much more disciplined team that won't let us run over them athletically (especially if the opponent is Spain). I think we're going to need better half court offense to win the championship, and I think that's going to require better play in the half-court. It's my opinion that the guards (Irving included) are going to be the key to that. They are going to have to play better than they have so far.

This perfectly sums up how I felt after watching our game yesterday. I was disappointed that the half court offense didn't look any better because it needs to be better in the medal round. It is hard to "get up" against weak teams once you are up by 20+, and K was juggling the line-ups, too. One thing I love about these FIBA tournaments is that we play nearly every day so at least we need only wait until this afternoon to see if we note any improvement.

K did say in training camp that they were much more focused on getting the D organized than the offense, and that the way these teams come together, with so many new faces, that trying to put in anything beyond very very basic stuff in the halfcourt is near impossible. His closing post-game quote certainly helps define the vision that he's focused on,

"The key for us all the time is defense and giving energy, and we did that against New Zealand, and if we do that against Dominican Republic good things happen and it just starts with their energy and defense, and those have been things we have done most of the time except for one half."

Translation - turnovers, easy baskets, 40 minutes of hell

CDu
09-03-2014, 10:50 AM
This perfectly sums up how I felt after watching our game yesterday. I was disappointed that the half court offense didn't look any better because it needs to be better in the medal round. It is hard to "get up" against weak teams once you are up by 20+, and K was juggling the line-ups, too. One thing I love about these FIBA tournaments is that we play nearly every day so at least we need only wait until this afternoon to see if we note any improvement.

K did say in training camp that they were much more focused on getting the D organized than the offense, and that the way these teams come together, with so many new faces, that trying to put in anything beyond very very basic stuff in the halfcourt is near impossible. His closing post-game quote certainly helps define the vision that he's focused on,

"The key for us all the time is defense and giving energy, and we did that against New Zealand, and if we do that against Dominican Republic good things happen and it just starts with their energy and defense, and those have been things we have done most of the time except for one half."

Translation - turnovers, easy baskets, 40 minutes of hell

The focus on defense and energy rather than half-court offense has definitely been evident so far. I'm not sold that turnovers and easy baskets will be so readily available if we face Spain. That same Spanish team pushed LeBron, Kobe, Carmelo, Paul, Westbrook, Durant, Love, Chandler, and a still-functional Deron Williams to 107-100 back in London. This USA team is not nearly as strong as that Olympic team was.

tux
09-03-2014, 11:50 AM
The focus on defense and energy rather than half-court offense has definitely been evident so far. I'm not sold that turnovers and easy baskets will be so readily available if we face Spain. That same Spanish team pushed LeBron, Kobe, Carmelo, Paul, Westbrook, Durant, Love, Chandler, and a still-functional Deron Williams to 107-100 back in London. This USA team is not nearly as strong as that Olympic team was.


I agree. After half a week of results, I would take the US team in a 7-game series vs. Spain (4-3). I.e., pretty much a toss up in a one game format.

But I doubt the 2012 half court offense looked that great either. It's not the strength of the US teams mainly due to the lack of time to add wrinkles, etc. and as noted above, it's not even close to a primary concern for K. If we stay out of foul trouble, play good defense, and our shooters show up, we win.

To beat a dead horse... No one is saying the half-court offense has been good. It's just a waste of time to wait around for it to get any better. And my point re: Kyrie is that IMO he's more or less done his part on the offensive end.

Billy Dat
09-03-2014, 12:25 PM
Fun article arguing to "keep Team USA young forever" by Grantland's Andrew Sharp

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/keep-team-usa-young-forever/

jipops
09-03-2014, 12:31 PM
I agree. After half a week of results, I would take the US team in a 7-game series vs. Spain (4-3). I.e., pretty much a toss up in a one game format.

But I doubt the 2012 half court offense looked that great either. It's not the strength of the US teams mainly due to the lack of time to add wrinkles, etc. and as noted above, it's not even close to a primary concern for K. If we stay out of foul trouble, play good defense, and our shooters show up, we win.

To beat a dead horse... No one is saying the half-court offense has been good. It's just a waste of time to wait around for it to get any better. And my point re: Kyrie is that IMO he's more or less done his part on the offensive end.

With the likes of Chris Paul, LeBron James, and Kevin Love, 3 of the best passers in the game at their respective positions, half court offense was certainly not an issue in 2012.

I agree it's a waste of time to wait around for it to get any better. Hopefully the team is taking some measures to do something about it.

Not to copy/paste CDu's comments, but I'm very much on board with what he stated. Fran Fraschilla has been pointing out this apparent weakness numerous times during the broadcasts as well. Fran has also been insistent that K is aware of this shortcoming. And if you watch our offensive possessions where 3 or more passes actually take place, things have a tendency to break down. Whether this is a result of some reliance on scoring off the initial pass or drive-and-dish, I don't know. But all those quick lobs to Faried and Davis are not going to be there against a team like Spain. I will say, I do like that we have been going to a lot of post ups lately.

CDu
09-03-2014, 12:41 PM
I agree. After half a week of results, I would take the US team in a 7-game series vs. Spain (4-3). I.e., pretty much a toss up in a one game format.

But I doubt the 2012 half court offense looked that great either. It's not the strength of the US teams mainly due to the lack of time to add wrinkles, etc. and as noted above, it's not even close to a primary concern for K. If we stay out of foul trouble, play good defense, and our shooters show up, we win.

To beat a dead horse... No one is saying the half-court offense has been good. It's just a waste of time to wait around for it to get any better. And my point re: Kyrie is that IMO he's more or less done his part on the offensive end.

Not sure I agree about that 7-game series outcome. Given that it is in Spain and given the way the US has played, I'd take Spain 4-3. But that's a minor quibble.

I'm also not sure I agree with your point about the 2012 team. Or at the very least, I don't think referencing the 2012 team's struggles (if they existed) is reason for relief with this team. The reason I brought up the 2012 Olympic gold medal game is because that 2012 USA team was unequivocally better than this 2014 team. They had the two best players on the planet in James and Durant, and another three top-10 players in Bryant, Anthony, and Paul. In Paul, Westbrook, and (at that time) Williams, they had three of the best pick-and-roll PG in basketball. Heck, they had a guy who averaged 26 and 13 as the backup center.

That Olympic team was at least the second-best (if not the best) Olympic roster we've ever had. Their third best PG was playing as good or better basketball than the best PG on this roster. The guys who are (or were) expected to star for this team woulddn't make that team and/or would be reserves/end-of-bench guys. It was just an embarrassment of riches.

So in terms of our chances of winning, I'm not sure that we will be successful trying to emulate the blueprint of the 2012 team. In terms of it being understandable that the 2014 team might struggle with half-court offense? Sure, it's absolutely understandable. But I'm less concerned with "understandable deficiencies" than seeing the team correct/overcome those deficiencies to win gold.

Billy Dat
09-03-2014, 12:55 PM
So in terms of our chances of winning, I'm not sure that we will be successful trying to emulate the blueprint of the 2012 team. In terms of it being understandable that the 2014 team might struggle with half-court offense? Sure, it's absolutely understandable. But I'm less concerned with "understandable deficiencies" than seeing the team correct/overcome those deficiencies to win gold.

Accepting all caveats about not looking forward, both teams need to get there first, the Spain game for the gold is hopefully where this is all headed.

In the post game, K talked about how the New Zealand offense was tough to defend because they dragged all of the bigs away from the hoop and forced them to guard pick and rolls and screening action on the perimeter. Our halfcourt defense kind of sucked in those situations, especially when K experimented with 3 bigs on the floor.

My fear with Spain is that they can play that kind of game. Pau has been gunning 3s this tournament, and they certainly have an epic halfcourt offense and the experience to run it to get any kind of shot they want...inside, outside, whatever.

All that is to say, like the past 2 Gold Medal games against Spain, I don't expect us to stop their halfcourt offense, which means we need to force turnovers early in the shot clock, get transition baskets and hopefully show some patience and ball movement on offense. It would help if we were able to shoot well and they shot poorly.

JasonEvans
09-03-2014, 01:20 PM
In a post only awhom will enjoy...Today is a huge day for a lot of teams not named USA.

In group A, the 4 best teams (all four of which have legit medal hopes) are all playing each other. Right now, Brazil is all over Serbia by 16 points midway through the 3rd quarter. Brazil's only loss thus far is to Spain so a win in this game probably all but locks them in as the #2 seed from the group. Later today, Spain will take on a fairly decent France team. You never k now when Boris Diaw is going to do something to make everyone around him better and perhaps lift his French team to something special.

In B, undefeated Greece plays a Croatia team that only has one loss. Greece has certainly looked like one of the top few teams in the world thus far but with Croatia and Argentina still to come in group play, they could take a tumble. Argentina is being led by Louis Scola who is averaging better than 23 points and 8 rebounds per game.

There was almost a huge upset in Group D just a few minutes ago. Undefeated Slovenia was down in the 4th quarter playing a pretty weak Angola team that has only one win. But, Slovenia turned it on late and it looks like they will win (they lead by 5 with under a minute left).

-Jason "right now, looks like we will probably play Mexico in the round of 16 -- their best player is Gustavo Ayon, who played backup center for the Hawks last year until he got hurt" Evans

Thurber Whyte
09-03-2014, 01:21 PM
Regarding the haka, I too think it looks a little out of place in basketball. A bunch of huge, muscular guys with cauliflower ears and broken noses telling you that they are going to kill you is not the same as a bunch of skinny guys, albeit large ones, playing a noncontact(ish) sport doing so. The fact that the All Blacks are one of the all time winningest sides in international rugby with a reputation for ferocity and a certain mystique about them is also important. When the All Blacks declare war on you, they are not exactly kidding. The All Blacks are not the only international rugby side that does the haka. Several of the South Sea Islands teams, who are also pretty good, have their own version of the haka and, when you have two teams squaring off before a match with hakas, that is really exciting.

I am not sure it elicited the desired response either. On the you tube video, the view would occasionally cut to individual US players watching them. Rather than fear or even defiance, the look on their faces was more like “What the heck is going on?” and “What is wrong with those people?” They then clapped politely the same way people do at a dinner party where the host’s 5 year old daughter is dragged into the room to sing a song she learned that day in kindergarten.

Even in rugby, part of what made the haka exciting was that it was unique and rare. Now, international sides compete much more frequently. The best Southern Hemisphere teams compete annually in a multiteam competition called without irony, “The Rugby Championship.” The also tour the Northern Hemisphere and received return visits regularly. The All Blacks and their haka are on television all the time now. Now that every New Zealand sports team does the haka, including the ping pong team, there is the real danger of it descending into shtick. (Seriously, soccer? What is the Maori for “I’m going to run over there bump into you and roll around on the ground holding my ankle for five minutes!” )

I guess a big part of it really comes down to how people in New Zealand feel about it. If it is how they build team spirit for each of their teams and develop a common national identity, that is great. (Do not worry about the Maoris and cultural expropriation. If you look at videos of the All Blacks from 30-40 years ago, the haka was kind of lame and stylized. As the team got more Maori players playing on a regular basis, they taught them how to do it properly.) However, I think it is fair to notice that the way the haka is received outside of rugby is not always how it is intended.

JasonEvans
09-03-2014, 01:33 PM
Right now, Brazil is all over Serbia by 16 points midway through the 3rd quarter. Brazil's only loss thus far is to Spain so a win in this game probably all but locks them in as the #2 seed from the group.

Jinx!!!

Serbia outscored Brazil 32-12 in the third quarter. The Serbs lead Brazil by 4 going to the 4th. Wow!

--Jason "these teams need nicknames. Brazil should be the Amazon Warriors. The Serbs can be the Genocidal Maniacs" Evans

CDu
09-03-2014, 01:44 PM
Accepting all caveats about not looking forward, both teams need to get there first, the Spain game for the gold is hopefully where this is all headed.

In the post game, K talked about how the New Zealand offense was tough to defend because they dragged all of the bigs away from the hoop and forced them to guard pick and rolls and screening action on the perimeter. Our halfcourt defense kind of sucked in those situations, especially when K experimented with 3 bigs on the floor.

My fear with Spain is that they can play that kind of game. Pau has been gunning 3s this tournament, and they certainly have an epic halfcourt offense and the experience to run it to get any kind of shot they want...inside, outside, whatever.

All that is to say, like the past 2 Gold Medal games against Spain, I don't expect us to stop their halfcourt offense, which means we need to force turnovers early in the shot clock, get transition baskets and hopefully show some patience and ball movement on offense. It would help if we were able to shoot well and they shot poorly.

Yeah, Spain is definitely the team to discuss. They have arguably a better frontcourt rotation (Gasols and Ibaka vs Davis/Faried/Cousins/Gay is likely to be the matchup rotation in the final if we face them) and everyone is correct to bring those guys up. But what makes them especially tough is that their guards are terrific and experienced. Everyone knows about Ricky Rubio, but he's actually their #3 PG. Calderon and Sergio Rodriguez are the #1 and #2. But between Rubio, Calderon, Rodriguez, Navarro, and Llull, they have an interchangeable rotation of 5 guards who can all handle the ball, shoot the 3, and run the pick-and-roll game. And those guys have played SO much together over the years that they are better than the sum of their parts in a way that the US just can't be (given the limited time together). Combine that with the home court advantage (both in terms of fans and ref influence), Spain is a very scary finals opponent if we both get there. It's just a massive step up in quality from the teams we've mauled the past few days.

Zeb
09-03-2014, 02:13 PM
Fun article arguing to "keep Team USA young forever" by Grantland's Andrew Sharp

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/keep-team-usa-young-forever/

I think he's on to something, but I think this is already happening for the most part without a rule being necessary. And I know K likes some continuity, so if such a rule/guideline was created, only half the roster should change each tournament, so that each time roughly half the roster would have an international tourney under their belt.

Henderson
09-03-2014, 02:57 PM
Good post. I hadn't seen Faried or Bennett play that much, but color me impressed.


Bennett?

Anthony Bennett -- #1 overall draft choice 2013
Anthony Davis -- #1 overall draft choice 2012

And same first name obviously, but otherwise they're not very similar :)

Looks like I picked a bad week to stop sniffing glue. First I called Anthony Boone, Aaron Boone, then I called Anthony Davis, Anthony Bennett. I bow my head in humiliation.

I wonder if there's any glue down here.... Maybe it will help straighten out these players with "AB" initials.

JasonEvans
09-03-2014, 03:38 PM
Looks like I picked a bad week to stop sniffing glue. First I called Anthony Boone, Aaron Boone, then I called Anthony Davis, Anthony Bennett. I bow my head in humiliation.

I wonder if there's any glue down here.... Maybe it will help straighten out these players with "AB" initials.

Note: Andrea Bargnani and Andris Biedrins are not the same player. Ditto for Andray Blatche and Andrew Bogut. And, while the same goes for Avery Bradley and Arron Brooks, it is perfectly acceptable to consider Avery Brooks and Chris Rock as the same person.
https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/2980699648/h8696DD21/

-Jason "Andrew Bynum is scowling at me right now" Evans

CDu
09-03-2014, 03:54 PM
Note: Andrea Bargnani and Andris Biedrins are not the same player. Ditto for Andray Blatche and Andrew Bogut. And, while the same goes for Avery Bradley and Arron Brooks, it is perfectly acceptable to consider Avery Brooks and Chris Rock as the same person.
https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/2980699648/h8696DD21/

-Jason "Andrew Bynum is scowling at me right now" Evans

Who is Avery Brooks? :)

flyingdutchdevil
09-03-2014, 04:13 PM
I love reading these DBR battles on strategy/players/coaches/games. They are everything the internet is not: civilized, analytical, and profanity-free.

I think we can establish the following:

-CDu loves Derrick Rose. Makes sense. He lives in Chi-Town, and D Rose is basically the equivalent of Paul Pierce here in Boston. CDu hasn't given up on Derrick Rose, whereas many of us don't think he'll ever be the same player again (myself included). CDu is incredibly level-headed about Derrick Rose's state right now; he understands there is a lot of rusk (junk-yard 1950s Cadillac rust), Rose hasn't played well, and Rose has never been nor will ever be a distributor first, scorer second.

-We all support Kyrie and want him to do well. Kyrie has the opportunity to go down as the best Duke NBA player ever. That's something to root for. And anything negative about Duke players does not sit well here at DBR.


Kyrie Irving is phenomenal player. There haven't been that many players like him: insane handle, great at getting to the rim, excellent shooting off the dribble, quick hands (on O and D), ankle breaker, etc etc etc. He has the opportunity to be the best PG scorer in the NBA in a few years. That's saying something. But he's not the best passer. That isn't saying he is a ball hog or turnover prone; it's that he doesn't pass much. Kyrie Irving has averaged 5.8 assists per game for the Cavs. Yes, yes, he has had terrible teammates. You know you else had terrible teammates? Chris Paul with the Hornets, and he averaged ~10-11 assists per game. Jason Kidd had terrible teammates with Phoenix and the Nets, and he averaged 8-10 assists per game. Terrible teammates helps, but having a true pass-first PG helps even more.

But I don't think its a terrible thing. 1) Kyrie has never been asked to pass. 2) He is only 22 years old. Let me repeat that. He's only 22 years old. 3) He has been a very poor leader, and great leadership will maximize his value. If this means passing more, so be it. If it means shooting more, so be it. After all, Tony Parker, one of the best PGs in the last 10 years, has only averaged 6.0 assists for this career. And this is when he's feeding the ball to Timmy D and Manu (amongst others).

For Team USA, Kyrie may not be the best candidate (I personally love Chris Paul, but that's because Chris Paul is a top 5 PG in nearly everything a PG is supposed to do). But Kyrie is providing value, and making Duke fans happy that he's looking really good on D.

Ichabod Drain
09-03-2014, 04:16 PM
Note: Andrea Bargnani and Andris Biedrins are not the same player. Ditto for Andray Blatche and Andrew Bogut. And, while the same goes for Avery Bradley and Arron Brooks, it is perfectly acceptable to consider Avery Brooks and Chris Rock as the same person.
https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/2980699648/h8696DD21/

-Jason "Andrew Bynum is scowling at me right now" Evans


Who is Avery Brooks? :)

Is he related to the Brooks twins Arron and Aaron?

brevity
09-03-2014, 04:27 PM
Note: Andrea Bargnani and Andris Biedrins are not the same player. Ditto for Andray Blatche and Andrew Bogut. And, while the same goes for Avery Bradley and Arron Brooks, it is perfectly acceptable to consider Avery Brooks and Chris Rock as the same person.
https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/2980699648/h8696DD21/

-Jason "Andrew Bynum is scowling at me right now" Evans


Who is Avery Brooks? :)

This is Avery Brooks:

4319

Careless work, I must say. The unwritten rule of Separated at Birth posts is that you have to get the name right.

Too bad I don't play Fantasy Football. "Captain Sisko's Thong Song" has a nice ring to it.

flyingdutchdevil
09-03-2014, 04:45 PM
Most hustle: Kenneth Faried
Most miles ran: Kenneth Faried
Happiest team member: Kenneth Faried
Most rebounds on Team USA: Kenneth Faried
Best smile: Kenneth Faried
Best hair: Kenneth Faried
Highest efficiency: Kenneth Faried
Player I most wish was a Duke grad: Kenneth Faried
If I had a daughter, player I'd like her to marry: Kenneth Faried
Player I think could cure all health ailments: Kenneth Faried
And most surprisingly player of the tournament: Kenneth Faried

wilson
09-03-2014, 04:46 PM
The unwritten rule of Separated at Birth posts is that you have to get the name right.

Too bad I don't play Fantasy Football. "Captain Sisko's Thong Song" has a nice ring to it.That's Sisqo. ;)

pfrduke
09-03-2014, 04:59 PM
22-0 runs are nice things.

brevity
09-03-2014, 05:02 PM
This is Avery Brooks:

4319

Careless work, I must say. The unwritten rule of Separated at Birth posts is that you have to get the name right.

Too bad I don't play Fantasy Football. "Captain Sisko's Thong Song" has a nice ring to it.


That's Sisqo. ;)

Thanks, I know. The unwritten rule of Fantasy Football Team Names is that the joke comes across, at the expense of everything else.

burnspbesq
09-03-2014, 05:58 PM
This is Avery Brooks:

4319

Careless work, I must say. The unwritten rule of Separated at Birth posts is that you have to get the name right.

Too bad I don't play Fantasy Football. "Captain Sisko's Thong Song" has a nice ring to it.

Sisko? Bah.

THIS is Avery Brooks.

http://worldofhurtonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/o_a_man_called_hawk_02-300x230.jpg

wilson
09-03-2014, 06:09 PM
Thanks, I know. The unwritten rule of Fantasy Football Team Names is that the joke comes across, at the expense of everything else.Perhaps my meaning didn't show through...my post was an attempted riff on all of these homophonic/alternately spelled names. No grammar policing (not this time, anyway).

CDu
09-03-2014, 08:43 PM
I must say thaat I have THOROUGHLY enjoyed the last several posts in this thread. Well played everyone. Well played. Brevity, you get a rec. Wilson, you get a rec. Flying Dutch, if I could rec you I would: As Oprah would say, EVERYBODY GETS A REC!!!!

Okay, I lied. I also can't rec brevity.

awhom111
09-03-2014, 09:40 PM
All the teams played today.

In Group A, Iran got their first win by beating Egypt 88-73 thanks to 23 points and 15 rebounds from Hamed Haddadi. Brazil recovered from a poor start to the second half by beating Serbia 81-73. In the win, Marquinhos had 21 points, Leandro Barbosa had 16 points, and Tiago Splitter had 10 points, 7 rebounds, and 6 assists. In the loss, Miroslav Raduljica had 11 points. Spain eventually fired their way past France 88-64 to take the top spot. In the win, Marc Gasol had 17 points and 6 rebounds, Pau Gasol had 15 points, Juan Carlos Navarro had 14 points, Serge Ibaka had 10 points and 8 rebounds, and Sergio Llull had 10 points. In the loss, Nicolas Batum had 11 points.
Standings: Spain 4-0, Brazil 3-1, Serbia 2-2, France 2-2, Iran 1-3, Egypt 0-4.

Tomorrow, Brazil takes second by beating Egypt. France can eliminate Iran with a win in the second game. Serbia and Spain is likely to be a meaningless game at the end of the day.

In Group B, the Philippines jumped out to a lead as they had another chance at a signature win, but fell late 75-71 to Puerto Rico to eliminate themselves. In the win, J.J. Barea had 30 points and Ricky Sanchez and David Huertas had 13 points each. Andray Blatche had 25 points and 14 rebounds in the loss. Argentina's old guard brought Senegal back down to earth with an 81-46 win. They were led by Luis Scola's 22 points and 14 rebounds, Walter Herrmann's 11 points, and Pablo Prigioni's 10 points. Gorgui Dieng had 11 points and 8 rebounds in the loss. Greece beat Croatia 76-65 with 14 points from Kostas Papanikolaou. Amidst rumors of issues, Bojan Bogdanovic had 20 points and Dario Saric had 10 points in the loss.
Standings: Greece 4-0, Argentina 3-1, Croatia 2-2, Senegal 2-2, Puerto Rico 1-3, Philippines 0-4

A Senegal win over the Philippines in the first game tomorrow will simplify things. That would create a straight elimination game between Croatia and Puerto Rico without need of tiebreakers. Argentina and Greece will look to finish at the top of the group after the last game.

In Group C, New Zealand picked up their first win against Ukraine 73-61. In the win, Kirk Penney had 17 points and 7 rebounds, Corey Webster had 11 points, and Isaac Fotu had 10 points and 10 rebounds. Pooh Jeter had 14 points and 6 assists in the loss. Finland completely collapsed late to lose 77-73 to Turkey in overtime. In the win, Omer Asik had 22 points and 8 rebounds and Emir Preldzic had 13 points and 8 rebounds. In the loss, Petteri Koponen had 17 points and Mikko Koivisto had 11 points.
Standings: United States 4-0, Ukraine 2-2, Turkey 2-2, Dominican Republic 2-2, New Zealand 1-3, Finland 1-3

Tomorrow, Finland and New Zealand start the day with an elimination game. The winner has a good shot especially since the Americans will presumably beat Ukraine. Turkey and the Dominican Republic will likely then close the day trying to grab second place with the loser likely having some effect on the three way tie.

In Group D, Australia opened the day by clinching qualification after holding off Mexico 70-62. In the win, Aron Baynes had 21 points, Ryan Broekhoff had 12 points, and Brad Newley had 10 points. In the loss, Gustavo Ayon had 11 points and 9 rebounds and Orlando Mendez-Valdez and Jorge Gutierrez had 10 points each. Slovenia got all they could handle from Angola eventually winning 93-87 as Goran Dragic had 14 points. In the loss, Roberto Fortes had 21 points, Yanick Moreira had 20 points, and Reggie Moore had 17 points and 6 rebounds. Marty and Lithuania got one tough quarter from South Korea before winning 79-49. Marty had 6 points in 23 minutes. Donatas Motiejunas had 18 points and 7 rebounds and Jonas Valanciunas had 12 points and 8 rebounds. Jarod Stevenson, also known as Moon Tae-Jong, had 15 points in the loss.
Standings: Slovenia 4-0, Lithuania 3-1, Australia 3-1, Mexico 1-3, Angola 1-3, South Korea 0-4

An Angola win over Australia in the first game tomorrow makes things interesting and eliminates South Korea. An Angola loss means that Mexico will advance by beating South Korea and set up a meeting with their border rivals while a South Korea win would create a three way tie for the last spot. Lithuania and Slovenia close the day with final group standings on the line among the three teams already set for the top three spots.


Title change for the next game: USA vs Ukraine 9/4 11:30am EDT ESPN2/3
We could do Mike Fratello a favor by tanking the game, though that seems unlikely. I suppose Brandon Jennings will be watching Pooh Jeter, but will J.R. Smith after the brief twitter argument at the start of last season?

JasonEvans
09-04-2014, 08:34 AM
Standings: Slovenia 4-0, Lithuania 3-1, Australia 3-1, Mexico 1-3, Angola 1-3, South Korea 0-4
Lithuania and Slovenia close the day with final group standings on the line among the three teams already set for the top three spots.

I'm not certain how a 3-way tiebreaker between Slovenia, Lithuania, and Australia would work out if they all finished 4-1, but Lithuania and Slovenia are playing today for the single most important prize in Group D... the ability to avoid Team USA until the medal round.

-Jason "In group B, Greece and Argentina are playing for the same thing... except the winner will get to avoid Spain" Evans

Billy Dat
09-04-2014, 10:09 AM
The latest BS Report features some FIBA World Cup talk with Zach Lowe and Joe House (there is also a lot of offseason NBA talk for junkies)
http://espn.go.com/espnradio/grantland/player?id=11457515

With the strong play of Spain and the US facing really weak teams, the "Spain is, at worst, even odds to win" narrative is regaining momentum. It is a real bummer that we were placed in such a weak pool. Lowe and Simmons seem to settle on the US as a very slight favorite over Spain. Lowe feels a little like if the US was roster building for Spain, they should have kept some of those wings like Parsons or Hayward to post up Spain's small wings like Fernandez. Lowe also speculated that the defense for Team USA has been poor, but masked by bad competition, and that Spain is just the kind of team that can punish slow rotations and botched switches. But, in general, they were lamenting the lack of good teams in the tournament and speculating that if US vs Spain for the gold doesn't happen, the whole thing will be a disappointment, and I tend to agree.

The Dominican Republic game was pretty boring, pool play can't end soon enough. If we hadn't missed a bunch of foul shots and lay-ups, we'd have been up big early. I did think that we tried a lot harder to move the ball and throw it inside, and part of that was the fact that the DR was so over-matched inside. Cousins gave us a nice lift when he came in. I still think the Splash brothers take too many bad shots. I was watching the game late as I DVRed it and fell asleep early in the second half. I heard Mason threw a nice over the shoulder alley oop pass.

Final pool play game today, let's see what's up!

_Gary
09-04-2014, 10:17 AM
The Dominican Republic game was pretty boring, pool play can't end soon enough. If we hadn't missed a bunch of foul shots and lay-ups, we'd have been up big early. I did think that we tried a lot harder to move the ball and throw it inside, and part of that was the fact that the DR was so over-matched inside. Cousins gave us a nice lift when he came in. I still think the Splash brothers take too many bad shots. I was watching the game late as I DVRed it and fell asleep early in the second half. I heard Mason threw a nice over the shoulder alley oop pass.

Final pool play game today, let's see what's up!

Mason did indeed have a nice over the shoulder alley oop pass. In the first quarter Kyrie should have had at least 4 assists as he set both Harden and Curry up with nice, wide open 3's, but none resulted in assists because Curry missed his two while Harden missed one and then passed up the shot on the second one (as Kyrie looked back at him incredulously). After that, I have to say Kyrie had what I thought was his worst game yet. Thankfully it didn't matter, but he'll have to pick it back up quickly. DRose just doesn't look comfortable to me. He runs just fine, but seems to hesitate a bit when he goes up for shots. He's still not close to what we saw a few years ago once he leaves the ground. Hopefully that area of his game improves as he keeps playing.

Billy Dat
09-04-2014, 10:32 AM
An interesting Fran Frashilla-provided tidbit from the broadcast which I had suspected but never heard confirmed...

Aside from the fact that many of the other best teams have more roster consistency than the US, their preparation for the tournament is far more rigorous. First off, they get together as a group much earlier. Where our training camp/tryout in Vegas started in late July, most other teams were already together and practicing as a unit. Our guys then had a few breaks (between Vegas and Chicago and between Chicago and NY) whereas these other countries keep at it. Also, he mentioned that the culture with these other countries usually involves two a day practices.

Obviously, I think the US does it the only way possible to attract top NBA talent, keeping the practice schedule light but focused, and only keeping these guys as long as we have to. Otherwise, no one would participate, and I can't say I'd blame them. But, it does put us at a preparation disadvantage which the talent typically more than mitigates.

The other interesting thing that I am really reminded of as I watch these games is that (A) tons of guys playing for other countries were born and raised in America and are citizens, like almost everyone on the Dominican team played high school and college basketball in the US and (B) there are a lot of guys who are playing for other countries because their dads were Americans who went overseas to play professional and never came home (e.g. Dante Exum). I guess its like the US Soccer team and the military brats who learned the game in countries like Germany where their families were stationed.

sagegrouse
09-04-2014, 10:58 AM
The other interesting thing that I am really reminded of as I watch these games is that (A) tons of guys playing for other countries were born and raised in America and are citizens, like almost everyone on the Dominican team played high school and college basketball in the US and (B) there are a lot of guys who are playing for other countries because their dads were Americans who went overseas to play professional and never came home (e.g. Dante Exum). I guess its like the US Soccer team and the military brats who learned the game in countries like Germany where their families were stationed.


Is this the basketball equivalent of what the Soviets used to refer to as "American cultural hegemony?"

Billy Dat
09-04-2014, 11:14 AM
Is this the basketball equivalent of what the Soviets used to refer to as "American cultural hegemony?"

I thought that was all Beatles and blue jeans...and Facebook and Twitter...

pfrduke
09-04-2014, 11:50 AM
That was an ugly and uninspired first quarter.

CDu
09-04-2014, 11:56 AM
There was definitely a more concerted effort in the Dominican Republic game to move the ball more in the half-court. Especially to the post guys, who had a big edge inside.

Unfortunately, we're back to sloppy half-court play against the Ukraine so far. Down 5 at the end of the first. In fairness, there have been several missed layups to cause the deficit rather than a slight lead. But the Ukraine is pretty bad, so even a close lead is not positive.

We'll win this game of course, on sheer talent. But it has been a bit of a reversion from better play against the D.R.

I thought Rose has looked better the past two games than he had in previous games. He's missed some layups, but the explosion appears to be back. Most notably, he's now in his 5th game in 6 days and still looks explosive. As a Bulls fan, this makes me happy. As a Team USA fan, it remains to be seen whether the rust gets fully shaking off before we face anyone good.

He's looked better today than he did yesterday attacking the rim. Still working on step one in his progression (finishing those drives to the rim); he's still not creating for others off the dribble, so he won't be really back until he can do that in addition to getting back to finishing those explosive drives to the rim.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
09-04-2014, 01:13 PM
Irving with a hard fall in garbage time.

CDu
09-04-2014, 01:15 PM
Irving just had a nasty fall on a drive. He got bumped by the defender as he leaped in traffic. The bump knocked him off balance and he came down on his hip/butt. He was down for a bit, but he got up an limped off. Hopefully just a bruised butt/hip.

dukelifer
09-04-2014, 01:23 PM
Irving just had a nasty fall on a drive. He got bumped by the defender as he leaped in traffic. The bump knocked him off balance and he came down on his hip/butt. He was down for a bit, but he got up an limped off. Hopefully just a bruised butt/hip.

Hopefully he will be fine. Looks like he will sore though for a few days.

CDu
09-04-2014, 01:25 PM
Hopefully he will be fine. Looks like he will sore though for a few days.

Yeah, the way he hobbled off (on his own power, just holding his side) it "just" looked like a simple bruise to the hip/butt. Certainly no fun, but almost certainly nothing serious. Just a bit scary at the time.

sagegrouse
09-04-2014, 01:26 PM
Well, this is pool play -- five games in six days. We'll be better (sure we will!!) when we're in the elimination rounds.

CDu
09-04-2014, 01:37 PM
The good news: we won our group and everyone (assuming Irving's hip is fine, and it should be) is healthy. The better news: we should have a pretty easy first game or two in knockout play.

Honestly, the way this tourney is laid out (and with the lack of depth on most of the other teams), we're not likely to face a good team until the finals, if we're fortunate enough to get there. Unfortunately, that opponent is likely to be a very good Spanish team playing on their home floor.

We were up-and-down again today (nothing new there) and won the game in transition (also nothing new). Not much more to say. The guard play was noticeably sharper (25 to 9 assist to turnover ratio for the team), though not sure how much of that was due to the opponents (lack of) quality. The only major knock was some poor finishing around the basket (I'm looking at you DRose!). We probably gave away 7 or 8 buckets at the rim, with Rose getting about half of those. The good news is that we're getting those easy attempts. Just gotta start making them.

Faried was a beast on the boards, Davis was a nightmare in transition, and Cousins had a second straight strong game. That 3-man rotation has looked really good so far. Rudy Gay... is a big step down from Durant and George, and I'll leave it at that.

Pretty thorough job of outclassing a short-handed and inferior team today. Solid work.

theAlaskanBear
09-04-2014, 01:50 PM
I thought CDu did a nice job summing up the game.

My big question after watching the past few games where Curry has struggled shooting and generally gotten off to slow start, perhaps Thompson should be in the starting lineup. He has been the better shooter, and is a better defender, and doesn't take as many questionable shots, which could be a big deal to start the game. It could help contain some of the Euro guard penetration in pick and rolls, and would allow Curry to come in and play aggressively gunning and passing after the opposing team has already expended some energy.

roywhite
09-04-2014, 01:56 PM
I thought CDu did a nice job summing up the game.

My big question after watching the past few games where Curry has struggled shooting and generally gotten off to slow start, perhaps Thompson should be in the starting lineup. He has been the better shooter, and is a better defender, and doesn't take as many questionable shots, which could be a big deal to start the game. It could help contain some of the Euro guard penetration in pick and rolls, and would allow Curry to come in and play aggressively gunning and passing after the opposing team has already expended some energy.

I like the idea.

The main concerns I've had so far are:
Derrick Rose is just not back to pre-injury form; can't do much about that for now; perhaps the rust will lessen
Steph Curry -- too sloppy and not shooting great

For the record, I think this USA team will beat Spain; pressure defense, transition, and depth will take it's toll.

CDu
09-04-2014, 01:57 PM
I thought CDu did a nice job summing up the game.

My big question after watching the past few games where Curry has struggled shooting and generally gotten off to slow start, perhaps Thompson should be in the starting lineup. He has been the better shooter, and is a better defender, and doesn't take as many questionable shots, which could be a big deal to start the game. It could help contain some of the Euro guard penetration in pick and rolls, and would allow Curry to come in and play aggressively gunning and passing after the opposing team has already expended some energy.

I think that is an interesting idea. It doesn't seem like Curry's skills mesh well with those of Harden and Irving. That is 3 ball-dominant (as in guys who play better with the ball than without). Thompson is closer to a true wing, and might fit better with those other two guys. Curry is certainly the better player, but Thompson may be the better fit.

It would work well for the second team too. That group currently has just one playmaker (Rose). So Curry would give a second ballhandler to that group while maintaining a shooter on the floor.

I like it. So who has Coach K's number? Let's get this done! :)

mattman91
09-04-2014, 02:01 PM
Waiting for the Kyrie Coccyx vigil.

In all seriousness, I hope he is ok.

_Gary
09-04-2014, 02:09 PM
Waiting for the Kyrie Coccyx vigil.

In all seriousness, I hope he is ok.

You and me both. If, God forbid, he's not then this team's chances of winning this World Cup are drastically cut. And for that matter, I've hated seeing him have to play in mop-up time. If Rose can't go, don't put your starting PG out there and take the chance of what happened today. Put Curry out there to play with the rest of the second team and give him a few minutes in the role as the pure PG. Or put Harden out there and let him play legit PG for a bit. It didn't look like it should be anything more than a bruised hip, but if it's a deep enough bruise it will impact Kyrie's play. Let's hope that isn't the case.

devildeac
09-04-2014, 02:09 PM
Waiting for the Kyrie Coccyx vigil.

In all seriousness, I hope he is ok.

From the reports above, it appears we should all be cautiously op-toe-mistic.

CDu
09-04-2014, 02:09 PM
I like the idea.

The main concerns I've had so far are:
Derrick Rose is just not back to pre-injury form; can't do much about that for now; perhaps the rust will lessen
Steph Curry -- too sloppy and not shooting great

For the record, I think this USA team will beat Spain; pressure defense, transition, and depth will take it's toll.

Yeah it is strange with Rose: the quickness and explosiveness are there. He made several moves the past two days that were vintage Rose athletically. It is just that his finishing is... off. I will say that the last two days he has looked better out there. He is just missing layups. He has about 6 missed layups in the past two games (a trend that has haunted him throughout this tournament). If he puts even 4 or 5 those in (and he should), his statline would look pretty good: ~15 mpg, 10 ppg, 3.5 apg, 3 rpg, 1 spg, 0.5 bpg, 0.5 tpg (7:1 a:to), 50% fg%. But because he is missing those layups, his scoring (6 ppg) is meh and his fg% (25%) is awful.

I am just happy that the explosiveness is back. Hopefully the timing and finishing return. I thought today was his best game of the tournament - it's just that his 2-9 fg% masks the quality of his play. Add 3 or 4 made layups instead of misses (I have to believe that those will eventually start to fall again) and his line today is fantastic.

richardjackson199
09-04-2014, 02:15 PM
Waiting for the Kyrie Coccyx vigil.

In all seriousness, I hope he is ok.

Thankfully there will be no more Kyrie vigils. I hope I never see another one.

Reportedly Kryie is fine, per ESPN.

"The only scare was a hard landing by starting guard Kyrie Irving with 1:12 left, but he eventually got off and walked off holding his lower back.

U.S. coach Mike Krzyzewski said afterward that Irving landed on his tailbone, but that the team doesn't "anticipate a serious injury" and expects Irving will be fine.

Irving spoke to ESPN's Bob Holtzman after the game and said the landing looked worse than it was. Irving said he slipped and landed hard, and that his muscle was sore, but not the bone.

"I'm fine," he said, adding there is no question he will continue to play."

http://espn.go.com/olympics/basketball/story/_/id/11465071/us-wraps-pool-play-perfect-record

mattman91
09-04-2014, 02:22 PM
Thankfully there will be no more Kyrie vigils. I hope I never see another one.

Reportedly Kryie is fine, per ESPN.

"The only scare was a hard landing by starting guard Kyrie Irving with 1:12 left, but he eventually got off and walked off holding his lower back.

U.S. coach Mike Krzyzewski said afterward that Irving landed on his tailbone, but that the team doesn't "anticipate a serious injury" and expects Irving will be fine.

Irving spoke to ESPN's Bob Holtzman after the game and said the landing looked worse than it was. Irving said he slipped and landed hard, and that his muscle was sore, but not the bone.

"I'm fine," he said, adding there is no question he will continue to play."

http://espn.go.com/olympics/basketball/story/_/id/11465071/us-wraps-pool-play-perfect-record

Thanks for the report!

Henderson
09-04-2014, 02:32 PM
Steph Curry -- too sloppy and not shooting great


True -- he shot 37.8% overall in the five games. But he shot 43.5% from 3 and 100% from the line.

_Gary
09-04-2014, 02:33 PM
True -- he shot 37.8% overall in the five games. But he shot 43.5% from 3 and 100% from the line.

He and Harden shoot well from 3 unless Kyrie is passing them the ball - or so it seems to me. LOL

CDu
09-04-2014, 02:46 PM
You and me both. If, God forbid, he's not then this team's chances of winning this World Cup are drastically cut. And for that matter, I've hated seeing him have to play in mop-up time. If Rose can't go, don't put your starting PG out there and take the chance of what happened today. Put Curry out there to play with the rest of the second team and give him a few minutes in the role as the pure PG. Or put Harden out there and let him play legit PG for a bit. It didn't look like it should be anything more than a bruised hip, but if it's a deep enough bruise it will impact Kyrie's play. Let's hope that isn't the case.

I want to clarify something here. Irving hasn't "had" to play in mop-up time. Coach K has been pretty consistent in his rotations: ~5-7 minute stretches for each PG. With the exception of 1 game, Irving has started the first and 3rd quarters and played to just past the 5 minute mark (give or take). Then Rose has come in for the rest of the quarter and the beginning of the next quarter. Irving then returns early-ish in the 2nd/4th quarter (somewhere around the 7- or 8-minute mark). He then plays either the rest of the quarter or until about a couple minutes to go (when Rose comes back in). Coach K has tinkered with that a couple of times (he played the starters the entire 3rd quarter in the game against Turkey; he started Rose in the 3rd quarter in the game against New Zealand. But that's more or less been the formula. So Rose (as the backup) gets about 12-15 mpg and Irving (as the starter) gets about 25-30.

So I don't think it's a matter of "if Rose can't go." Rose can go. When he's on the floor, he's going full-bore defensively and he's showing explosiveness (though not necessarily effectiveness) offensively. He's not missed a rotation in the 6-day/5-game stretch that had so many folks concerned, and he's looked progressively better physically and skill-wise as the tournament has gone on. None of that suggests that Irving is in the game late because of Rose's health. It just seems to be the way Coach K is doing the rotations at PG.

Maybe Coach K could tweak things with shorter rotations earlier in the 2nd half so that Rose is out there at the end. Or he could put Curry at PG late. Though putting Curry at PG in a blowout is just as risky as using Irving because we have just two dead-eye type shooters on the roster and Curry is one (his group-play struggles notwithstanding). With only 2 PG on the roster, we are always going to risking it by putting one of them on the floor.

Also, I don't think the "mop up" time issue is first on Coach K's mind. As he's said, we're playing catchup in terms of chemistry because we haven't had nearly the prep time. One of the results is that our half-court offense has looked bad. Well, how do you fix that? By playing more. If Coach K is sitting his starters in blowouts, we're never going to get the chemistry needed to beat Spain. So he's playing his regulars as regulars in spite of the (very small) risk of serious injury. Gotta roll the dice one way or the other, and this is how he's going to roll them.

_Gary
09-04-2014, 03:00 PM
I want to clarify something here. Irving hasn't "had" to play in mop-up time. Coach K has been pretty consistent in his rotations: ~5-7 minute stretches for each PG. With the exception of 1 game, Irving has started the first and 3rd quarters and played to just past the 5 minute mark (give or take). Then Rose has come in for the rest of the quarter and the beginning of the next quarter. Irving then returns early-ish in the 2nd/4th quarter (somewhere around the 7- or 8-minute mark). He then plays either the rest of the quarter or until about a couple minutes to go (when Rose comes back in). Coach K has tinkered with that a couple of times (he played the starters the entire 3rd quarter in the game against Turkey; he started Rose in the 3rd quarter in the game against New Zealand. But that's more or less been the formula. So Rose (as the backup) gets about 12-15 mpg and Irving (as the starter) gets about 25-30.

So I don't think it's a matter of "if Rose can't go." Rose can go. When he's on the floor, he's going full-bore defensively and he's showing explosiveness (though not necessarily effectiveness) offensively. He's not missed a rotation in the 6-day/5-game stretch that had so many folks concerned, and he's looked progressively better physically and skill-wise as the tournament has gone on. None of that suggests that Irving is in the game late because of Rose's health. It just seems to be the way Coach K is doing the rotations at PG.

Maybe Coach K could tweak things with shorter rotations earlier in the 2nd half so that Rose is out there at the end. Or he could put Curry at PG late. Though putting Curry at PG in a blowout is just as risky as using Irving because we have just two dead-eye type shooters on the roster and Curry is one (his group-play struggles notwithstanding). With only 2 PG on the roster, we are always going to risking it by putting one of them on the floor.

Also, I don't think the "mop up" time issue is first on Coach K's mind. As he's said, we're playing catchup in terms of chemistry because we haven't had nearly the prep time. One of the results is that our half-court offense has looked bad. Well, how do you fix that? By playing more. If Coach K is sitting his starters in blowouts, we're never going to get the chemistry needed to beat Spain. So he's playing his regulars as regulars in spite of the (very small) risk of serious injury. Gotta roll the dice one way or the other, and this is how he's going to roll them.

I shouldn't have worded it "if Rose can't go". That was my bad. And yes, I'm fully aware of K's rotations and why Kyrie is ending up playing in mop up time. I just think it's a dangerous thing to have your starter - your ONLY starter of the five - out there at that time of the game for the reasons illustrated today. I just wish he'd either put Rose back in for the last 3 or 4 minutes of these games or put someone else in instead of it always being Kyrie. Coach has clearly got a pattern in terms of minutes he wants Rose to play. I get that. He doesn't want to press him into too many minutes so he's developed the plan he has in place. I just think someone else other than your starting PG should be out there at the end. Or split that role, game to game, between Irving, Curry and Harden.

Just my two cents.

Henderson
09-04-2014, 03:13 PM
He and Harden shoot well from 3 unless Kyrie is passing them the ball - or so it seems to me. LOL

Kyrie has been better than he may seem watching a game. He leads the team in assist/turnover ratio and was among the top 5 scorers for Team USA in group play. 52% from the field and 50% from 3. 80% from the line. 9.8 ppg and 3.8 rpg (all defensive). And he's led the team in minutes per game (23.0, which is in a 40 minute game is testament to some serious depth).

Mike Corey
09-04-2014, 03:14 PM
Random question: Are the U.S. players compensated for playing on this team?

richardjackson199
09-04-2014, 03:23 PM
Random question: Are the U.S. players compensated for playing on this team?

Interesting. I don't know but my guess is no. I'm sure nice hotels, meals, travel, VIP amenities, etc. all paid for though.

And yes - they're paid one priceless shilling of gold each, after it's all over of course.

flyingdutchdevil
09-04-2014, 03:26 PM
Random question: Are the U.S. players compensated for playing on this team?

It wouldn't surprise me either way. Soccer players are compensated for participating in International competitions (the Ghana team made sure to let the rest of the world know that. SMH...)

If they get paid, it doesn't bother me at all. There is risk (see George, Paul), fatigue, and sacrifice involved. A little bit of chump change doesn't hurt. However, if they do get paid, I hope it's not more or equivalent to their salaries (that I would be shocked if it was).

_Gary
09-04-2014, 03:30 PM
It wouldn't surprise me either way. Soccer players are compensated for participating in International competitions (the Ghana team made sure to let the rest of the world know that. SMH...)

If they get paid, it doesn't bother me at all. There is risk (see George, Paul), fatigue, and sacrifice involved. A little bit of chump change doesn't hurt. However, if they do get paid, I hope it's not more or equivalent to their salaries (that I would be shocked if it was).

I think it's one million, per player, per game. :p

_Gary
09-04-2014, 03:32 PM
Kyrie has been better than he may seem watching a game. He leads the team in assist/turnover ratio and was among the top 5 scorers for Team USA in group play. 52% from the field and 50% from 3. 80% from the line. 9.8 ppg and 3.8 rpg (all defensive). And he's led the team in minutes per game (23.0, which is in a 40 minute game is testament to some serious depth).

Yep. But I'm greedy. I want him to average 10 assists per game, so those two slackers (Curry and Harden) better start knocking down more threes. LOL

Billy Dat
09-04-2014, 03:55 PM
I concur with Alaska that CDu's initial game summary was on the $.

I am trying to be calm about our slow starts because (A) that is when the other team is most fresh and (B) our depth and relentless effort have really been wearing these teams down. It's not just our talent taking over, its the combination of talent with great effort.

I agree that the ball sharing and playmaking have gotten a lot better. I think Kyrie has really gotten better as the week has gone on, he was really getting the ball to guys in good spots today and his shooting has been excellent. I agree that, overall, the team was moving and sharing the ball better. I also (finally) took note of Harden's playmaking, especially in the two man game with Davis. I thought he had a really good game.

I agree with CDu's observations about Rose, his explosiveness seems to be there, he just seems to lack timing and confidence. He is definitely thinking too much on offense, but his defense is good.

I am getting to the point where Curry infuriates me, its not rational, but I continue to abhor his shot selection, his turnovers over sloppy passes and his fouling. But, he's playing hard. I don't hate the idea of Thompson starting in his place, but Klay is such an unrepentant gunner that I fear the brow would never get the ball.

I also want to shout out Boogie who I think has been playing some really solid ball. He's not an intuitive defender in that I find he is often out of position, but he works hard to protect the rim, is very active on the glass, and runs the court hard.

The team is already off to Barcelona and Mexico awaits. Assuming we win that game, we'll get a few more days off, which will allow for some practice before the quarters.

Henderson
09-04-2014, 04:00 PM
Team USA outscored its opponents in group play by 33.2 ppg. No one got closer than 22 (Turkey).

Next up: Mexico.

Spain is just starting its game against Serbia, streaming live in English on ESPN3.

CDu
09-04-2014, 04:17 PM
Spain is cruising early, up 12 (28-16) late in the first.

CDu
09-04-2014, 04:38 PM
I tell you what: Spain has to lead the tournament in team facial hair.

richardjackson199
09-04-2014, 04:39 PM
If you look at the SC Topics line just above the headlines on this link, there is a video with even more assured confirmation that Irving is totally fine. (Just more assurance for anyone paranoid like me - we don't have to worry about any confirmatory MRI's on his toe this time).

http://espn.go.com/#

flyingdutchdevil
09-04-2014, 04:42 PM
I tell you what: Spain has to lead the tournament in team facial hair.

Kenneth Faried does not win that superlative.

Most facial hair: Spanish National Team
Ugliest facial hair: Spanish National Team

NSDukeFan
09-04-2014, 08:05 PM
I concur with Alaska that CDu's initial game summary was on the $.

I am trying to be calm about our slow starts because (A) that is when the other team is most fresh and (B) our depth and relentless effort have really been wearing these teams down. It's not just our talent taking over, its the combination of talent with great effort.

I agree that the ball sharing and playmaking have gotten a lot better. I think Kyrie has really gotten better as the week has gone on, he was really getting the ball to guys in good spots today and his shooting has been excellent. I agree that, overall, the team was moving and sharing the ball better. I also (finally) took note of Harden's playmaking, especially in the two man game with Davis. I thought he had a really good game.

I agree with CDu's observations about Rose, his explosiveness seems to be there, he just seems to lack timing and confidence. He is definitely thinking too much on offense, but his defense is good.

I am getting to the point where Curry infuriates me, its not rational, but I continue to abhor his shot selection, his turnovers over sloppy passes and his fouling. But, he's playing hard. I don't hate the idea of Thompson starting in his place, but Klay is such an unrepentant gunner that I fear the brow would never get the ball.

I also want to shout out Boogie who I think has been playing some really solid ball. He's not an intuitive defender in that I find he is often out of position, but he works hard to protect the rim, is very active on the glass, and runs the court hard.

The team is already off to Barcelona and Mexico awaits. Assuming we win that game, we'll get a few more days off, which will allow for some practice before the quarters.

After Faried, has Cousins benefited most from this tournament so far, or Davis? Or Harden, or Kyrie?

awhom111
09-04-2014, 09:10 PM
Final day of the group stage:

In Group A, Brazil jumped on Egypt early and ran away with a 128-65 win. In the win, Leandro Barbosa had 22 points, Anderson Varejao had 15 points and 10 rebounds, Alex Ribeiro Garcia had 15 points, Raul Neto had 14 points and 10 assists, and Marcelo Huertas had 12 points. France ended up in a weird game with Iran, but won 81-76. In the win, Evan Fournier had 13 points and Boris Diaw and Joffrey Lauvergne had 12 points each. Spain and Serbia went into their game knowing their final places, but still played their regular rotations and put on a show in am 89-73 Spain win. In the win, Pau Gasol had 20 points, Juan Carlos Navarro had 15 points, Ricky Rubio had 12 points, 6 assists, and 7 steals, and Marc Gasol had 11 points and 8 rebounds. In the loss, Nemanja Bjelica had 19 points and 10 rebounds and Miroslav Raduljica had 13 points.
Standings: Spain 5-0, Brazil 4-1, France 3-2, Serbia 2-3, Iran 1-4, Egypt 0-5

In Group B, Philippines finally got their win, beating Senegal 81-79 in overtime despite further efforts to choke away another game. In the win, Andray Blatche had 18 points and 15 rebounds and Jimmy Alapag had 18 points. In the loss, Mouhammad Faye had 20 points, Gorgui Dieng had 13 points and 14 rebounds, and Maurice Ndour and Maleye N'Doye had 13 points each. That result gave Croatia the chance to finish higher in the group and they did so by elminating Puerto Rico 103-82. In the win, Bojan Bogdanovic had 23 points, Dario Saric had 15 points, and Damir Markota had 10 points and 7 rebounds. In the loss, J.J. Barea had 20 points, Alex Franklin had 13 points, and Ricky Sanchez and Alex Galindo had 11 points each. Greece led wire to wire against Argentina although there were a few close moments in their 79-71 win to take the top spot in the group. In the win, Nick Calathes had 18 points and Georgios Printezis had 15 points. In the loss, Luis Scola had 17 points and Pablo Prigioni had 10 points.
Standings: Greece 5-0, Croatia 3-2, Argentina 3-2, Senegal 2-3, Puerto Rico 1-4, Philippines 1-4

In Group C, it was an elimination game as New Zealand just managed to hold off Finland 67-65. In the win, Isaac Fotu had 18 points and 8 rebounds and Kirk Penney had 11 points. In the loss, Gerald Lee had 17 points, Petteri Koponen had 13 points, and Shawn Huff had 10 points. New Zealand moved on after the results of the Ukraine game. Turkey took second place by beating the Dominican Republic 77-64. Francisco Garcia returned with 18 points in the loss.
Standings: United States 5-0, Turkey 3-2, Dominican Republic 2-3, New Zealand 2-3, Ukraine 2-3, Finland 1-4

In Group D, Australia put minimal effort into keeping up with Angola in the second half and lost 91-83. In the win, Yanick Moreira had 38 points and 15 rebounds and Roberto Fortes had 12 points. In the loss, Brock Motum had 13 points, Dante Exum had enough playing time to score 12 points and dish out 6 assists, Cameron Bairstow had 11 points, and Nate Jawai had 10 points. The early result meant that Mexico had to win to move on and they did so by beating already eliminated South Korea 87-71. In the win, Hector Hernandez had 16 points and 11 rebounds, Marco Ramos had 14 points and 6 rebounds, Francisco Cruz had 13 points, Rodrigo Zamora had 11 points and 6 rebounds, and Jorge Gutierrez had 11 points. Jarod Stevenson/Moon Tae-Jong had 16 points in the loss and the Koreans head home to prepare for the Asian Games, which matter far more to the team. Marty and Lithuania went into their game with Slovenia knowing that a win would put them at the top of the group. They took that spot by stifling their opponents in the fourth quarter and scoring just enough to come back for a 67-64 win. Marty had 7 points in 21 minutes. Jonas Valanciunas had 12 points in the win while Goran Dragic had 12 points in the loss.
Standings: Lithuania 4-1, Slovenia 4-1, Australia 3-2, Mexico 2-3, Angola 2-3, South Korea 0-5

Brackets (Two Saturday games at each location listed first):

Madrid:
France vs Croatia
Spain vs Senegal
Serbivs vs Greece
Brazil vs Argentina

Barcelona:
Dominican Republic vs Slovenia
United States vs Mexico
New Zealand vs Lithuania
Turkey vs Australia

CDu
09-04-2014, 09:31 PM
After Faried, has Cousins benefited most from this tournament so far, or Davis? Or Harden, or Kyrie?

I would say Davis, then Cousins. But several guys are taking advantage of the opportunity for sure.

Billy Dat
09-04-2014, 10:31 PM
I would say Davis, then Cousins. But several guys are taking advantage of the opportunity for sure.

Yeah, it's a good question that probably depends on how its framed.

For guys not known for their defense - basically everyone save for Davis/Thompson/Rose - it's a chance to learn from Thibs and really focus on that part of their game.

For Cousins, its also a chance to launder his reputation.

Davis needed leadership seasoning, and "the man" seasoning.

Kyrie needed leadership seasoning and ability to tune his skills to other stars outside of an All Star game exhibition environment.

I'd have to assume making the team and being around the other guys has been a huge boost for Mason.

Despite his struggles, I can't imagine a better re-introduction to high level ball for Rose.

Thibs probably knows even better now how to defensive scheme for most of these guys:p

gep
09-05-2014, 12:35 AM
... For Cousins, its also a chance to launder his reputation.

...

Kyrie needed leadership seasoning and ability to tune his skills to other stars outside of an All Star game exhibition environment.


Cousins... I wasn't high on him at all before this all started. But I think he's benefited a lot in this environment... and has apparently embraced it.

Kyrie... If not in this tournament, he'll get a *massive* dose of tuning his skills to other stars once the NBA season gets going :cool:

edit: Forgot to mention... I'm also impressed with Rudy Gay... maybe not so much his play, but his commitment to the team. I recall reading that he wasn't even invited to the team after being on the 2010 championship team. But when USA basketball called, he was more than happy to join up. That, to me, is commitment. Along these lines, Cousins has been invited to a few of these team tryouts, but never made the team. But he really wanted to be on a USA team, and worked really hard at it to finally "make the team". I think he's trying to make the most of it.

g-money
09-05-2014, 02:31 AM
I am getting to the point where Curry infuriates me, its not rational, but I continue to abhor his shot selection, his turnovers over sloppy passes and his fouling. But, he's playing hard. .

Welcome to the world of a Warriors fan. But don't give up on Curry yet. After watching approximately 70% of the W's games last season, I can say that it's only a matter of time before he sets the nets aflame with a hot streak.

Billy Dat
09-05-2014, 07:37 AM
After Faried, has Cousins benefited most from this tournament so far, or Davis? Or Harden, or Kyrie?

I thought about Thibs some more. He is getting to carefully observe his comeback star day in and day out in a much closer way than if they were both in Chicago. As he prepares his plan for the 2014-5 Bulls, this level of insight is vital.

CDu
09-05-2014, 07:40 AM
I thought about Thibs some more. He is getting to carefully observe his comeback star day in and day out in a much closer way than if they were both in Chicago. As he prepares his plan for the 2014-5 Bulls, this level of insight is vital.

I am hoping he is also taking the chance to recruit another Chicago product back home. Anthony Davis seems tailor-made for Thibs.

flyingdutchdevil
09-05-2014, 08:57 AM
I am hoping he is also taking the chance to recruit another Chicago product back home. Anthony Davis seems tailor-made for Thibs.

I'm hoping Jahlil Okafor stays for 4 years. Kidding aside, big men aren't going to be the Bull's issue for the next 3 years. That would be a) point guard (what if Rose isn't Rose?) and b) the wings (Jimmy Butler is fabulous and all, but isn't that really all you have?).

I can easily see Anthony Davis pull a Kevin Love. Zero playoff appareances, demand a trade, get paired up with a James Harden-type player.

I wonder if Golden State would pull a Lee-Thompson for Davis right now. My guess is they would. Love is a top 10 player, Davis is arguably a top 3 player.

JasonEvans
09-05-2014, 09:19 AM
Back to the question that was asked a page ago... Team USA players are not paid for appearing in the World Cup, Olympics or other international events. They are given a stipend/per diem to cover some expenses/meals but it is considered chump change to these multi-million dollar athletes. There has been some talk (http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/30/kobe-says-team-usa-should-be-paid-but-they-would-play-anyway/)about paying players, but it never gets very far and (as the linked article points out) why should basketball players be paid when the wrestlers, runners, and swimmers at the Olympics are not paid anything. The honor of competing in the most important international events is considered your payment, I guess.

--Jason "if the players are not paid, you can see how FIBA and the national organizing committees make a real mint off of these events, but if they use the money to help build basketball in their country, that is fine with me" Evans

flyingdutchdevil
09-05-2014, 10:19 AM
Back to the question that was asked a page ago... Team USA players are not paid for appearing in the World Cup, Olympics or other international events. They are given a stipend/per diem to cover some expenses/meals but it is considered chump change to these multi-million dollar athletes. There has been some talk (http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/30/kobe-says-team-usa-should-be-paid-but-they-would-play-anyway/)about paying players, but it never gets very far and (as the linked article points out) why should basketball players be paid when the wrestlers, runners, and swimmers at the Olympics are not paid anything. The honor of competing in the most important international events is considered your payment, I guess.

--Jason "if the players are not paid, you can see how FIBA and the national organizing committees make a real mint off of these events, but if they use the money to help build basketball in their country, that is fine with me" Evans

For the Olympics, I couldn't agree more. But with FIBA? FIBA, like FIFA, enjoys positioning itself as a non-profit. My foot! They may not disclose their profits, but they make a ton of money! FIFA is a corrupt organization and has money coming out of its ears. FIBA is a newer organization (give it time to be as corrupt) with a smaller fan base. But they should be encouraged to pay players for this World Cup (or at least the countries paying playes).

CDu
09-05-2014, 10:30 AM
I'm hoping Jahlil Okafor stays for 4 years. Kidding aside, big men aren't going to be the Bull's issue for the next 3 years. That would be a) point guard (what if Rose isn't Rose?) and b) the wings (Jimmy Butler is fabulous and all, but isn't that really all you have?).

I can easily see Anthony Davis pull a Kevin Love. Zero playoff appareances, demand a trade, get paired up with a James Harden-type player.

I wonder if Golden State would pull a Lee-Thompson for Davis right now. My guess is they would. Love is a top 10 player, Davis is arguably a top 3 player.

Well, first of all, we're talking about a situation 2-3 years away anyway. So the Bulls being set up front for the next 3 years is kind of moot. But regardless, you can always find a place for a top-3 player. Noah, Gasol, and Gibson are each expendable for the best young big man in the game. If it's a possibility, you make it happen and worry about the rest later. But heck, Noah won't even be under contract when Davis would become available as a free agent (restricted free agent in 2 years, otherwise unrestricted in 3), and Gasol and Gibson would be expiring contracts (in 2 years) or off the books as well (in 3 years).

With regard to your questions about the Bulls, my thoughts are this:

a) Having now seen him make progress in this tourney, I have even less doubt now than I did a month ago that Rose will return to form. The explosiveness is there. The health and ability to play back-to-backs is there. It's now just a matter of getting his timing back. He's going to be really good again. Perhaps very soon, perhaps in a few months. But he's going to get there.

b) We have Butler, Snell, and McDermott at the moment. No, none of those guys are "second star" guys. But that's kind of the point of getting Davis. You pair him with Rose and you put solid pieces around them. Butler is perhaps the best defensive wing in the NBA right now; Snell is still a project but has the length, athleticism, and shooting touch to become a great "3-and-D" option under Thibs, and I think McDermott's floor is Kyle Korver, more likely he's another Wally World. As your third/fourth/fifth options, that's not too shabby. The wing situation is only a question mark if we don't have that second go-to guy.

Obviously getting Davis is a long-shot, as is the case for any player that you don't already have the rights to. But if/when Davis becomes available in 2-3 years, the Bulls HAVE to give it a shot. He's a hometown guy, he's a perfect fit with Thibs and Rose, and he's just really really good.

roywhite
09-05-2014, 10:40 AM
Back to the question that was asked a page ago... Team USA players are not paid for appearing in the World Cup, Olympics or other international events. They are given a stipend/per diem to cover some expenses/meals but it is considered chump change to these multi-million dollar athletes. There has been some talk (http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/30/kobe-says-team-usa-should-be-paid-but-they-would-play-anyway/)about paying players, but it never gets very far and (as the linked article points out) why should basketball players be paid when the wrestlers, runners, and swimmers at the Olympics are not paid anything. The honor of competing in the most important international events is considered your payment, I guess.

--Jason "if the players are not paid, you can see how FIBA and the national organizing committees make a real mint off of these events, but if they use the money to help build basketball in their country, that is fine with me" Evans


For the Olympics, I couldn't agree more. But with FIBA? FIBA, like FIFA, enjoys positioning itself as a non-profit. My foot! They may not disclose their profits, but they make a ton of money! FIFA is a corrupt organization and has money coming out of its ears. FIBA is a newer organization (give it time to be as corrupt) with a smaller fan base. But they should be encouraged to pay players for this World Cup (or at least the countries paying playes).

Actually, I think the USOC (US Olympic Committe) does pay medalists, according to this Forbes article (http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2014/02/16/u-s-athletes-already-owed-240000-in-olympic-medal-bonuses/)


The U.S. Olympic Committee pays out a $25,000 bonus per gold medal, $15,000 for silver and $10,000 for bronze. (The money does not come from the U.S. government — the USOC gets its money from the sale of broadcast rights, licensing and trademark income, and corporate sponsorships.)

Those bonuses actually pale in comparison to some other nations – Russia pays $114,000 for a gold, and Kazakhstan leads the list with a $250,000 gold medal bonus – but America’s typical massive medal hauls mean big overall payouts. Last year the USOC paid $1.48 million to athletes who brought home a medal. After the Turin Games in 2006, it paid $720,000.


Some individual sports federation also pay U.S. medalists; the US Wrestling Federation, for example, pays American medalists.

We're not talking big bucks, certainly compared to NBA salaries, and I haven't seen an indication that there are payments to American medalists in FIBA events.

For an NBA player, seems to me that they could significantly increase their name and brand awarenenss for marketing purposes through a good showing in the FIBA World Cup. Kenneth Faried, for example; isn't he much more likely to get some big endorsement dollars as a result of this tournament?

flyingdutchdevil
09-05-2014, 11:06 AM
Actually, I think the USOC (US Olympic Committe) does pay medalists, according to this Forbes article (http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2014/02/16/u-s-athletes-already-owed-240000-in-olympic-medal-bonuses/)



Some individual sports federation also pay U.S. medalists; the US Wrestling Federation, for example, pays American medalists.

We're not talking big bucks, certainly compared to NBA salaries, and I haven't seen an indication that there are payments to American medalists in FIBA events.

For an NBA player, seems to me that they could significantly increase their name and brand awarenenss for marketing purposes through a good showing in the FIBA World Cup. Kenneth Faried, for example; isn't he much more likely to get some big endorsement dollars as a result of this tournament?

I think this is spot on. Basketball is a game with only 12 roster spots and 5 men on the floor. Compare this with soccer, where there are 23 roster spots and 11 men on the field. Basketball players have so much exposure because of the sheer lack of players on the pitch. Getting recognition is so much easier with a sport that has less players (a tennis player gets 50% of the exposure on a court, while an American football player gets less than 5%. Furthermore, they wear helmets). Basketball is somewhere in the middle, and these dudes don't wear much clothing (shots, sleeveless jerseys, no helmets, no racket, no nothing).

So, if you are a player looking to expand your brand, playing for Team USA, where you are going to build exposure just by being on the bench, is a great way to do so. I'd be shocked if Faried or Davis don't come away from this tournament with additional sponsorship opportunities.

At the same time, a few extra dollars in your pocket via FIBA or USA Basketball doesn't hurt either.

JasonEvans
09-05-2014, 11:29 AM
At the same time, a few extra dollars in your pocket via FIBA or USA Basketball doesn't hurt either.

Well, depends on what you mean by "a few extra dollars." I believe that the only guys on the current Team USA who have not made well over $10 million in their NBA careers are Faried, Drummond, and Plumlee. They are each on rookie contracts and have not signed long-term extensions and would not seem to have big-buck endorsement deals yet. Davis is also on his rookie deal but as the #1 pick in the draft, his deal pays him quite nicely ($5 mil + per season) and I am sure he has some good endorsement deals. The rest of the guys on the team are all making over $7 mill per season on multi-year contracts.

Faried is clearly in line for a big contract (probably near the max) when his rookie deal is up in another season. I would imagine that his exposure and performance this summer would make him a good endorsement candidate ("Manimal" is marketable!). Drummond has also had enough success early on to make him a very likely big contract guy when his rookie deal is done. Someone is going to pay him $8+ mil per season. Mason is the least financially secure as he is the only guy on the roster who was not a starter last NBA season. Still, the consensus seems to be that he will be a significant player for the Nets going forward and it is hard to imagine him not getting at least a $5+ mil per season deal when his rookie contract is done.

Anyway, the point here is to ask what USA Basketball or FIBA could do in terms of payment that would mean much of anything to these guys. I suppose a million per player would be interesting to most of them but that is a big payout for FIBA or USA Basketball to make. $100k might be a nice bonus for Plumlee but wouldn't really matter to the rest of the guys on the team. EVery one of these guys are here because they want to represent their country and get better at basketball.

-Jason "I am sure Coach K, Thibs, and Boeheim get paid... I wonder how much they make" Evans

wk2109
09-05-2014, 11:38 AM
-Jason "I am sure Coach K, Thibs, and Boeheim get paid... I wonder how much they make" Evans

Coach K has said that he doesn't get paid: http://sports.yahoo.com/news/q-a-with-team-usa-coach-mike-krzyzewski-060317404.html


Yahoo: Does your one loss with USA [Greece, 2006 world championships] hurt more than any loss at Duke?

Krzyzewski: "It did at that moment. In retrospect, we probably learned more from losing than we would have from winning. We learned that how we were approaching it as a country was not right. We had to learn the game, make bigger commitments and just work harder. We couldn't do it anymore just picking people or just picking a staff. There had to be more of a commitment. Our scouting increased unbelievably. All those things. We don't get paid, but you have to pay for a lot of things. But that's where Jerry has been remarkable in the money that he has raised for USA Basketball."

Billy Dat
09-05-2014, 01:02 PM
Zach Lowe's take of the FIBA World Cup so far
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/team-usa-fiba-world-cup-spain/

Sadly, he puts one right between Mason's eyes...ouch.

"The Cousins-Faried combo has been shakier in this sense, and Gay, allegedly a stretch power forward, has jacked only three 3-pointers from the shorter FIBA line. Paul Millsap would have been helpful, especially since Mason Plumlee and Andre Drummond aren’t playing meaningful minutes. Oh well. It’s so obviously a joke Plumlee is on the team that it’s almost not worth mentioning. Almost."

CDu
09-05-2014, 01:17 PM
Zach Lowe's take of the FIBA World Cup so far
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/team-usa-fiba-world-cup-spain/

Sadly, he puts one right between Mason's eyes...ouch.

"The Cousins-Faried combo has been shakier in this sense, and Gay, allegedly a stretch power forward, has jacked only three 3-pointers from the shorter FIBA line. Paul Millsap would have been helpful, especially since Mason Plumlee and Andre Drummond aren’t playing meaningful minutes. Oh well. It’s so obviously a joke Plumlee is on the team that it’s almost not worth mentioning. Almost."

I mean, let's be honest: Mason really shouldn't be on the team. He's a promising young player, but he is the least accomplished player - by far - on the squad. I'm sure he hustled and did everything asked of him in camp, and athletically he looks nice when we get up-tempo. But he really shouldn't be on the team.

And with Davis and Faried and Cousins playing so well, there's not really a need to carry two extra bigs. I think we'd have been better served using at least one of those spots on a spot-up shooter like Korver. I'd probably have taken Hayward, Millsap, and Korver over Gay, Plumlee, and Drummond. Right now, the second unit is a nightmare in terms of spacing. Aside from Thompson, nobody in that group can shoot. I think having a few extra shooters would have been a huge plus.

Henderson
09-05-2014, 01:27 PM
I mean, let's be honest: Mason really shouldn't be on the team.

I'm inclined to defer to Coach K on this. Mason gives the primary bigs a blow, with an eye to a possible Spain matchup. He hasn't been all that useful in group play, and admittedly hasn't excelled in the five games he wasn't needed. But he has a role. Coach K seems to think so. You might differ with K in his team selection, but I'm willing to give K the benefit of the doubt and see this play out.

SilkyJ
09-05-2014, 01:53 PM
With group play over, thought it was a good time to look at the stats and see what they're telling us. 5 games is still a small sample size, but here are my thoughts. (Cumulative stats for Team USA: http://archive.usab.com/misc/14_mwc_USA.pdf)

-Kyrie leads the team in minutes played, which is a little surprising, but I don't think anyone would have predicted this top 3 for minutes played: 1) Kyrie 2) Klay 3) Faried. Most of us would have had Harden or Davis in there, who are actually 4th and 6th overall. We'll see if that changes once we get to the knockout round.
- Kyrie leading the team in minutes is probably of function of us only playing 2 PGs (curry is playing exclusively off the ball), and D-Rose playing a little less than expected, which is probably due to the compressed schedule vis-a-vis his coming back from an injury, as well as his mediocre play from having to shake off rust. Oh Kyrie's playing pretty well too: best A/TO ratio of the primary ballhandlers/playmakers (Rose: 1.5, Curry: 1.9, Harden: 2.2, Kyrie: 2.4), shooting 50% from 3, 52% overall, averaging 10/4/3. Could get to the line a little more is my only nitpick.
-Related: D-Rose is rusty. 25% from the field, 10% from 3. Good news for CDu is that he looks to have basically 100% of his explosiveness and quickness back. The shooting will come, he just needs ~20 games to shake off the rust. 5 games isn't enough.
-Faried and Davis have been the anchors of this team and are our most important players. Its not even close. We didn't need stats to tell us that tho..
-Faried is a monster on the glass. On a per 36 min basis he's averaging almost ~13rebs/game and ~6 off rebs/game. How he only has 1 FTA given his activity down low is beyond me.
-After a slowish start, the splash bros are back, each shooting 42/43% from 3.
-Related: Klay has been the better splash bro, and has generally just been awesome thus far. He's been more consistent from deep, is shooting 50% overall (vs Curry's 37% overall), his D has been great and he can guard ~3 positions...all this has led to him being the 2nd leading minutes getter right behind Kyrie
-James Harden has been good, but not great. He's shooting poorly from 3, but is great at getting into the lane and finishing (he's shooting 58% overall despite the crummy 3 pt shooting) and great and drawing fouls. His 27 FTA lead the team and he's made 20 of them. He's a little bit of a black hole sometimes when he gets the ball is my other complaint.

CDu
09-05-2014, 01:53 PM
I'm inclined to defer to Coach K on this. Mason gives the primary bigs a blow, with an eye to a possible Spain matchup. He hasn't been all that useful in group play, and admittedly hasn't excelled in the five games he wasn't needed. But he has a role. Coach K seems to think so. You might differ with K in his team selection, but I'm willing to give K the benefit of the doubt and see this play out.

And those few minutes could have just as easily been filled by a guy like Paul Millsap, who also aids in spacing the floor because he can actually make a shot outside of 10 feet. Also, I highly doubt the 4 mpg that Plumlee is averaging over the past few games are critical to resting Davis (who is averaging only around 20 mpg) and especially Cousins (who is averaging just 15 mpg in the tournament).

Coach K and the staff know more about basketball than I'll ever know. But that doesn't mean that they always make the right decision.

ice-9
09-05-2014, 02:11 PM
I mean, let's be honest: Mason really shouldn't be on the team. He's a promising young player, but he is the least accomplished player - by far - on the squad. I'm sure he hustled and did everything asked of him in camp, and athletically he looks nice when we get up-tempo. But he really shouldn't be on the team.

And with Davis and Faried and Cousins playing so well, there's not really a need to carry two extra bigs. I think we'd have been better served using at least one of those spots on a spot-up shooter like Korver. I'd probably have taken Hayward, Millsap, and Korver over Gay, Plumlee, and Drummond. Right now, the second unit is a nightmare in terms of spacing. Aside from Thompson, nobody in that group can shoot. I think having a few extra shooters would have been a huge plus.

Isn't it established that Drummond and Plumlee are on the team specifically for Spain?

Team USA could probably have been better off with Millsap and Korver against everyone-but-Spain, but it's not like they're needed against everyone-but-Spain. Despite not looking great at times, this team has dominated on the scoreboard.

The one formidable opponent is Spain, and against the Spaniards, Drummond and Plumlee are probably more valuable than Millsap and Korver.

CDu
09-05-2014, 02:30 PM
Isn't it established that Drummond and Plumlee are on the team specifically for Spain?

Team USA could probably have been better off with Millsap and Korver against everyone-but-Spain, but it's not like they're needed against everyone-but-Spain. Despite not looking great at times, this team has dominated on the scoreboard.

The one formidable opponent is Spain, and against the Spaniards, Drummond and Plumlee are probably more valuable than Millsap and Korver.

I don't think Plumlee and Drummond are there for Spain. I think that if we face Spain, we will go with Davis, Faried, and Cousins as much as possible. The rotation will get trimmed to 8 or 9 (DeRozan will get squeezed out and Gay will probably play sparingly). Millsap would absolutely be a solid 4th option against Spain (instead of Gay) because he's a stretch-4 who would pull one of Gasol/Gasol/Ibaka away from the basket. And Millsap is certainly big enough to guard Ibaka or Pau for the brief time needed to spell our top 3 bigs. I mean, MAYBE you keep a third center just in case. But four centers? Seems totally unnecessary.

Honestly, I think having a floor-spacing PF is most critical for the game against Spain. We want to be able to make their bigs get away from the basket rather than camp in there and muck up our driving lanes. Plumlee and Drummond aren't helping at all there. Neither is Rudy Gay. Faried isn't either, but he's offering amazing energy/rebounding/garbage buckets so he makes up for it elsewhere. The lack of a stretch 4 on the roster seems to be a glaring hole in our preparations for Spain.

I think the real reason that Drummond is on the squad is because Coach K wants to throw him a bone with anticipation for 2016 and beyond. I think that Drummond will eventually be a big presence for us, and perhaps the coaching staff just wants to keep his spirits up about the idea of coming back and competing in the future.

tbyers11
09-05-2014, 02:43 PM
Isn't it established that Drummond and Plumlee are on the team specifically for Spain?

Team USA could probably have been better off with Millsap and Korver against everyone-but-Spain, but it's not like they're needed against everyone-but-Spain. Despite not looking great at times, this team has dominated on the scoreboard.

The one formidable opponent is Spain, and against the Spaniards, Drummond and Plumlee are probably more valuable than Millsap and Korver.

Total agreement that Drummond and, especially Plumlee, are big body foul trouble/injury insurance for Spain. Drummond is also a little bit of the Anthony Davis role from the 2012 Olympic team. Not expected to play/contribute much outside of garbage time this year but with 2 more years of development he could play a big role on the 2016 Olympic team.

mattman91
09-05-2014, 02:47 PM
I don't think Plumlee and Drummond are there for Spain. I think that if we face Spain, we will go with Davis, Faried, and Cousins as much as possible. The rotation will get trimmed to 8 or 9 (DeRozan will get squeezed out and Gay will probably play sparingly). Millsap would absolutely be a solid 4th option against Spain (instead of Gay) because he's a stretch-4 who would pull one of Gasol/Gasol/Ibaka away from the basket. And Millsap is certainly big enough to guard Ibaka or Pau for the brief time needed to spell our top 3 bigs. I mean, MAYBE you keep a third center just in case. But four centers? Seems totally unnecessary.

Honestly, I think having a floor-spacing PF is most critical for the game against Spain. We want to be able to make their bigs get away from the basket rather than camp in there and muck up our driving lanes. Plumlee and Drummond aren't helping at all there. Neither is Rudy Gay. Faried isn't either, but he's offering amazing energy/rebounding/garbage buckets so he makes up for it elsewhere. The lack of a stretch 4 on the roster seems to be a glaring hole in our preparations for Spain.

I think the real reason that Drummond is on the squad is because Coach K wants to throw him a bone with anticipation for 2016 and beyond. I think that Drummond will eventually be a big presence for us, and perhaps the coaching staff just wants to keep his spirits up about the idea of coming back and competing in the future.

I agree with you for the post part about the stretch 4 role, but I think Rudy Gay can potentially fill that void.

Billy Dat
09-05-2014, 05:51 PM
A Zach Lowe "Lowe Post" pod with Fran Frashilla focused on the FIBA World Cup.
http://espn.go.com/espnradio/grantland/player?id=11471383

CDu
09-05-2014, 07:41 PM
I agree with you for the post part about the stretch 4 role, but I think Rudy Gay can potentially fill that void.

I hope so. So far he hasn't shown much shooting touch. But he is obviously the only option on the team now for that role.

awhom111
09-05-2014, 09:58 PM
The other 7 Round of 16 games will be on ESPN3 and are supposed to be simulcast on NBATV.

Billy Dat
09-06-2014, 12:11 AM
A Zach Lowe "Lowe Post" pod with Fran Frashilla focused on the FIBA World Cup.
http://espn.go.com/espnradio/grantland/player?id=11471383

I just listened to this...

-The conversation moves between the FIBA World Cup, Non-US players coming to the NBA soon, the decision for non-US stars to stay in Europe when they have a chance to come to the NBA, scouting events like Eurocamp, etc. They come back to the World Cup a bunch, but its not all collected in one segment of the long interview.

-I may be being sensitive, but I felt like the two of them were second guessing K quite a bit. On offense, they feel they should try and put in more half court plays and should be letting Curry run the point, at least some of the time. On defense, they say that despite the effort, Irving, Harden and Curry are all terrible defenders which the veteran savvy teams like Turkey worked to death with high screening action. They seemed a little bit too sure that the staff is not bringing the team along in an optimal way.

-Per the above, I think we are veering back toward Spain getting too much support to win. These guys spoke all about what Spain would be able to do on offense, but little about how they plan to stop us.

dukelifer
09-06-2014, 11:04 AM
Curry putting on a show in this one

ice-9
09-06-2014, 11:26 AM
The first FIBA game I've managed to watch! I kept an eye out for Kyrie. He didn't do much offensively, but I don't know if it's because of him specifically or the guy he guarded, but Mexico ran a LOT of plays for his man. Kyrie had to fight through a lot of screens. Overall I thought he did an OK job, especially as his man was Mexico's focal point on the perimeter, but he did get burned a couple of times.

I didn't see Kyrie take selfish shots either. He seemed to make an effort to pass the ball, even the non-assist kind. (Just as I submitted the comment, Kyrie took an early 3.)

Rose didn't look too good.

Newton_14
09-06-2014, 11:38 AM
The first FIBA game I've managed to watch! I kept an eye out for Kyrie. He didn't do much offensively, but I don't know if it's because of him specifically or the guy he guarded, but Mexico ran a LOT of plays for his man. Kyrie had to fight through a lot of screens. Overall I thought he did an OK job, especially as his man was Mexico's focal point on the perimeter, but he did get burned a couple of times.

I didn't see Kyrie take selfish shots either. He seemed to make an effort to pass the ball, even the non-assist kind. (Just as I submitted the comment, Kyrie took an early 3.)

Rose didn't look too good.

Curry was the man today. 20 points on 7-10 shooting including 6-9 from downtown. A one man run!''

Henderson
09-06-2014, 11:59 AM
Gustavo Ayon looked pretty good for Mexico, scoring 25 points. I hope that doesn't portend a problem defending the post for Team USA.

For all the talk about the possibility of meeting Spain in the finals, I'm looking forward to a possible semi-final matchup between Spain and Greece. Like the US, both came out of group play undefeated. Greece didn't blow anybody out (closest was Senegal -- Brazil's opponent today -- by 23), but they are tough, experienced and one of the only teams that can match up with Spain in facial hair. Greece's game tomorrow against Serbia should be a good one. Serbia lost by 16 to Spain, but they only lost by 2 over the last 3 quarters after a hot start by Spain in Q1. And they'll bring some facial hair too.

jipops
09-06-2014, 01:58 PM
Gustavo Ayon looked pretty good for Mexico, scoring 25 points. I hope that doesn't portend a problem defending the post for Team USA.

For all the talk about the possibility of meeting Spain in the finals, I'm looking forward to a possible semi-final matchup between Spain and Greece. Like the US, both came out of group play undefeated. Greece didn't blow anybody out (closest was Senegal -- Brazil's opponent today -- by 23), but they are tough, experienced and one of the only teams that can match up with Spain in facial hair. Greece's game tomorrow against Serbia should be a good one. Serbia lost by 16 to Spain, but they only lost by 2 over the last 3 quarters after a hot start by Spain in Q1. And they'll bring some facial hair too.

Facial hair is everything against Spain. That is why Harden will drop 30 on them in the finals.

_Gary
09-06-2014, 02:51 PM
The first FIBA game I've managed to watch! I kept an eye out for Kyrie. He didn't do much offensively, but I don't know if it's because of him specifically or the guy he guarded, but Mexico ran a LOT of plays for his man. Kyrie had to fight through a lot of screens. Overall I thought he did an OK job, especially as his man was Mexico's focal point on the perimeter, but he did get burned a couple of times.

I didn't see Kyrie take selfish shots either. He seemed to make an effort to pass the ball, even the non-assist kind. (Just as I submitted the comment, Kyrie took an early 3.)

Rose didn't look too good.

I can tell you, as one that has watched every game (usually twice), that Kyrie was NOT himself today at all. That tailbone injury definitely was affecting him today. He didn't really push through the screens or guard his man with the ferocity that he has in previous games. I'm sure he's sore and didn't feel up to getting hammered by all those screens/picks that they were throwing at him today. On offense he was as weak as I've seen him. Just not himself. This team had better pray he's back to normal by the semi's or we'll be in a heap of trouble. If Curry hadn't been on today we'd have been in a close game.

theAlaskanBear
09-06-2014, 05:12 PM
Curry was the man today. 20 points on 7-10 shooting including 6-9 from downtown. A one man run!''

I'll take credit for the reverse jinx by suggesting Thompson start for Curry ;)

awhom111
09-06-2014, 06:16 PM
The other three games today:

In our section of the bracket, Slovenia beat the Dominican Republic 71-61 as Goran Dragic had 12 points and 6 assists. In the loss, James Feldeine had 18 points and 8 rebounds and Jack Michael Martinez had 12 points and 11 rebounds.

In Madrid, France held off Croatia 69-64. In the win, Nicolas Batum had 14 points, Evan Fournier had 13 points, and Mickael Gelabale had 11 points and 6 rebounds. In the loss, Bojan Bogdanovic had 27 points and 6 rebounds and Ante Tomic had 17 points and 6 rebounds. Spain then beat Senegal 89-56. In the win, Pau Gasol had 17 points, Serge Ibaka had 11 points and 6 rebounds, and Jose Calderon had 11 points. In the loss, Mouhammad Faye had 12 points.

awhom111
09-07-2014, 06:30 PM
Marty and Lithuania jumped out to an early lead on New Zealand and then had to hang on at the end to move on with a 76-71 win. Marty finished with 9 points in 24 minutes. Jonas Valanciunas had 22 points and 13 rebounds. In the loss, Corey Webster had 26 points and Isaac Fotu had 11 points.

They will face Turkey next after they came back to beat Australia 65-64 and made the tanking strategy fail. In the win, Emir Preldzic had 16 points, including the game-winning three-pointer, and 7 rebounds, and Sinan Guler had 16 points. In the loss, Aron Baynes had 15 points and 7 rebounds, Matthew Dellavedova had 13 points, and Cameron Bairstow had 10 points.

In Madrid, Serbia beat Greece 90-72. In the win, Bogdan Bogdanovic had 21 points, Miroslav Raduljica had 16 points and 6 rebounds, and Nenad Krstic had 10 points. In the loss, Nick Calathes had 14 points and Georgios Printezis had 12 points.

Brazil closed out the day by beating Argentina 85-65 to make it a clean sweep for Group A teams over Group B teams. In the win, Raul Neto had 21 points, Marquinhos had 13 points and 8 rebounds, Tiago Splitter had 10 points and 8 rebounds, and Leandro Barbosa had 10 points. In the loss, Pablo Prigioni had 18 points.

Billy Dat
09-08-2014, 09:56 AM
This far into the tournament, it basically looks like everyone is an enormous step below Spain and the US. We've both crushed everyone, and while Spain was in a tougher group, those teams look like they are pretty weak, too. We spanked Brazil in our first exhibition when none of our guys had even played together.

I thought we looked good against Mexico. As Curry said at halftime, Ayon got points because he got a lot of shots up. I didn't think his success said anything about our bigs. It was nice to see Curry have a great game, Cousins continues to look good, etc.

I am sure our guys, players and coaches, are itching to get this thing done. It's kind of a dangerous time and keeping the overall focus will be tricky. With all the pro Spain talk, I want nothing more than to make the final, play them, and beat them.

Slovenia next. It's a huge plus that we played against them in the exhibition as we know their style. Let's keep it rolling.

gumbomoop
09-08-2014, 11:37 AM
I'm almost, but not quite, certain that the current title for this thread is incorrect, at least the ESPN2 part.

ESPN2 is scheduled to air a EURO 2016 (football, Czech R-Netherlands) qualifier match at 2:45 on Tues 9/9. On ESPN's "On Air" grid, the listing for ESPN (not 2) is vaguely, but I think promisingly, blank for the 2:30-5 pm slot.

I'm guessing ESPN2 had been tentatively scheduled to air the US's quarterfinal game, if it had been the early game in Barcelona. But US-Slovenia is the late game, meaning it's the 3:00 pm game EDT, thus conflicting with previously contracted EURO 2016 football qualifier.

So, I'm guessing/hoping that the blank for the ESPN 2:30-5 slot tomorrow aft will be filled with US-Slovenia. It might, of course, wind up on ESPN News, but I'll guess ESPN.

Both Wed 9/10 games (Serbia-Brazil and France-Spain) are listed as on ESPN2, btw. And I assume ESPN3 will carry all 4 quarterfinals. Doesn't look as if Lithuania-Turkey will be televised over the air.

JohnJ
09-08-2014, 03:22 PM
Now showing on ESPN for me.

awhom111
09-08-2014, 04:58 PM
I'm almost, but not quite, certain that the current title for this thread is incorrect, at least the ESPN2 part.

ESPN2 is scheduled to air a EURO 2016 (football, Czech R-Netherlands) qualifier match at 2:45 on Tues 9/9. On ESPN's "On Air" grid, the listing for ESPN (not 2) is vaguely, but I think promisingly, blank for the 2:30-5 pm slot.

I'm guessing ESPN2 had been tentatively scheduled to air the US's quarterfinal game, if it had been the early game in Barcelona. But US-Slovenia is the late game, meaning it's the 3:00 pm game EDT, thus conflicting with previously contracted EURO 2016 football qualifier.

So, I'm guessing/hoping that the blank for the ESPN 2:30-5 slot tomorrow aft will be filled with US-Slovenia. It might, of course, wind up on ESPN News, but I'll guess ESPN.

Both Wed 9/10 games (Serbia-Brazil and France-Spain) are listed as on ESPN2, btw. And I assume ESPN3 will carry all 4 quarterfinals. Doesn't look as if Lithuania-Turkey will be televised over the air.

Current TV Schedule (EDT):
Tuesday:
Lithuania-Turkey, 11:00am, ESPN3/NBATV
USA-Slovenia, 3:00pm ESPN/ESPN3
Wednesday:
Brazil-Serbia, 12:00pm, ESPN2
Spain-France, 4:00pm, ESPN2

The Wednesday games are not currently listed for ESPN3 users with no full WatchESPN access, though that could always change. Games are also replayed on NBATV.

mr. synellinden
09-09-2014, 04:08 PM
The team looks flat, a step slow on offense and defense and is playing too much individual basketball.

If they don't turn up the intensity and play as a unit on both sides of the court, this could stay tight in the second half. Faried needs to play more minutes and Curry needs to start shooting well.

Irving's defense is very poor and Harden is playing terribly so far.

pfrduke
09-09-2014, 04:32 PM
The team looks flat, a step slow on offense and defense and is playing too much individual basketball.

If they don't turn up the intensity and play as a unit on both sides of the court, this could stay tight in the second half. Faried needs to play more minutes and Curry needs to start shooting well.

Irving's defense is very poor and Harden is playing terribly so far.

TCOB in the third quarter. Lithuania will be a tougher test - they won't wilt quite so easily.

Also, Harden and Curry were unlikely to stay 0-13 for very long.

mr. synellinden
09-09-2014, 04:51 PM
TCOB in the third quarter. Lithuania will be a tougher test - they won't wilt quite so easily.

Also, Harden and Curry were unlikely to stay 0-13 for very long.

They sure did. Nice response in the second half. Just seemed like a different degree of focus.

awhom111
09-09-2014, 04:56 PM
Marty and Lithuania eventually pulled away from Turkey for a 73-61 win. Marty had 13 points in 24 minutes as he eliminated his next club head coach and a number of future club teammates from the tournament. Renaldas Seibutis had 19 points and Jonas Valanciunas had 12 points and 13 rebounds. In the loss, Omer Asik had 11 points and 10 rebounds and Emir Preldzic had 10 points.

Any predictions on how he will do in the next game? He always seems to play hard against the United States.

-jk
09-09-2014, 05:12 PM
Marty and Lithuania eventually pulled away from Turkey for a 73-61 win. Marty had 13 points in 24 minutes as he eliminated his next club head coach and a number of future club teammates from the tournament. Renaldas Seibutis had 19 points and Jonas Valanciunas had 12 points and 13 rebounds. In the loss, Omer Asik had 11 points and 10 rebounds and Emir Preldzic had 10 points.

Any predictions on how he will do in the next game? He always seems to play hard against the United States.

I can't remember: did Marty and Mason play at Duke together, or just barely miss (with perhaps some Horvathian pickup games in the mix)?

Regardless (not "irregardless" - that's a nice Raleigh eatery), I rather suspect he still has stuff he wants to prove to K, if not the NBA. Perhaps he'll psych himself out.

-jk

Duvall
09-09-2014, 05:17 PM
I can't remember: did Marty and Mason play at Duke together, or just barely miss (with perhaps some Horvathian pickup games in the mix)?

Regardless (not "irregardless" - that's a nice Raleigh eatery), I rather suspect he still has stuff he wants to prove to K, if not the NBA. Perhaps he'll psych himself out.

-jk

Missed, though they could have both been around for the summer of 2009.

I wouldn't expect Pocius to psych himself out - this would be the third or fourth time he's faced a Krzyzewski-coached U.S. team in international competition.

Billy Dat
09-09-2014, 05:33 PM
The only reason that game was quasi close at the half was we missed a ton of chippies in the first half and were a little sloppy in the second quarter. This game never felt in doubt and we thoroughly destroyed them in the second half.

Derrick Rose looked as good as he has looked all tournament. Kyrie was a force in the second half. Actually, I think pretty much everyone was good to great in the second half, Curry had a bunch of early fouls and Harden shook off some cold shooting.

Bring on Lithuania.

theAlaskanBear
09-09-2014, 08:49 PM
I'm worried about Lithuania. They are short-handed, but they have a veteran, experienced team with NBA quality bigs. I think our guard advantage will be enough to overcome them, but I am worried about reffing/physical defense, and pick-and-roll coverage. In today's game, Zupan in particular, Slovenia's bigs were allowed very blatant illegal screens. Lithuania is a very good shooting team 48% overall and 40% from three, solid rebounders. They play nice defense against 3-pt shot, allowing only 27% against, and are great from the FT line (75% as a team).

The US really broke Slovenia's back early into the third and it was no contest the rest of the way. Thompson, Rose, Irving, Faried, Davis all had quality games. Thompson continued his strong shooting and good defense, Rose was actually finishing his shots at the rim, Irving had a good all-round game, with 4 steals, Davis and Faried had their usual games. I thought Curry played very poorly today, again he started Team USA off with bad shots early in the clock, and Harden wasn't much help there either in the first half. Curry picked up 3 fouls in the first quarter and Demarcus Cousins fouled out in only 13 minutes of play.

awhom111
09-10-2014, 12:58 AM
Missed, though they could have both been around for the summer of 2009.

I wouldn't expect Pocius to psych himself out - this would be the third or fourth time he's faced a Krzyzewski-coached U.S. team in international competition.

Marty's games:
2010 Exhibition, 7 pts and 4 reb in 17 min
2010 Semifinal, 13 pts and 7 reb in 28 min
2012 Olympics, 14 pts, 7 reb, and 6 ast in 30 min


I'm worried about Lithuania. They are short-handed, but they have a veteran, experienced team with NBA quality bigs. I think our guard advantage will be enough to overcome them, but I am worried about reffing/physical defense, and pick-and-roll coverage. In today's game, Zupan in particular, Slovenia's bigs were allowed very blatant illegal screens. Lithuania is a very good shooting team 48% overall and 40% from three, solid rebounders. They play nice defense against 3-pt shot, allowing only 27% against, and are great from the FT line (75% as a team).

The US really broke Slovenia's back early into the third and it was no contest the rest of the way. Thompson, Rose, Irving, Faried, Davis all had quality games. Thompson continued his strong shooting and good defense, Rose was actually finishing his shots at the rim, Irving had a good all-round game, with 4 steals, Davis and Faried had their usual games. I thought Curry played very poorly today, again he started Team USA off with bad shots early in the clock, and Harden wasn't much help there either in the first half. Curry picked up 3 fouls in the first quarter and Demarcus Cousins fouled out in only 13 minutes of play.

It will be interesting to see whether Lithuania has really turned a corner and if we will get them at their best for this roster. In the past few games, they have largely abandoned their true point guards and moved Seibutis there to accomodate Marty at the other guard spot. Their experience could really be a factor here. Also, their big men will be a very good test for our last game as they can float out on the perimeter and shoot while defending our guys tough down low.

CDu
09-10-2014, 09:19 AM
Yesterday's second half was about as good as we can expect to play. The ball movement was much better, the defense was as good as ever, and the shooting (aside from Curry) was terrific. If we play like that against Spain, we stand a good chance of winning.

I will echo what Billy Dat and AlaskanBear said about Rose. He looked as good as he has all tournament. Actually, I think he looked very similar in the last two games of group play. But instead of getting to the rim and missing layups, yesterday he was finishing those layups. The legs are there. The explosiveness is there. The timing is coming back. 12 points, 5 assists, 3 rebounds, and a steal in about 15 minutes of play? Yeah, I'll take that.

This was the first game in which I really felt that Curry and Harden played poorly. Slovenia was prepared for Harden's go-to move (driving to the basket and throwing his arms into the defender) and as a result he found himself flailing wildly at the basket numerous times. It was frustrating to watch him do this over and over at the expense of other guys' scoring chances. He's got to play better if we're going to win this thing. Curry had a rough night, but I didn't feel like he was making bad decisions. The shots just weren't falling.

Ho hum, another dominant performance from our bigs. Davis with 13 and 11, Faried with 14 and 10, Cousins with 9 and 5. The sun rises in the East. Taxes on April 15. What was nice to see was Rudy Gay actually filling that "stretch 4" role. He hasn't shot the ball much in this tournament, but he was 2-3 on 3s yesterday. Good to see, as I think this will be important against Spain.

Klay Thompson has been a bit of a revelation of late. He's finding his stroke and he's playing aggressive defense. He is such a good weapon to have - a guy who doesn't need the ball in his hands to be dangerous.

Irving was terrific as well. Gotta love this stat line from the PGs: 24 points (11-19 fg), 8 assists, 7 rebounds, 5 steals, just 2 turnovers. Good stuff.

theAlaskanBear
09-10-2014, 01:22 PM
I only caught the 3-4th quarter, but Serbia is dismantling Brazil. 46-69 with 8 minutes to go in the 4th.

Billy Dat
09-10-2014, 02:42 PM
Once group play was a few games in, they should have seen what was going on, let everyone else play for the Bronze, and have the USA play Spain in a best of 7 to decide the gold and silver. That would have been epic!

As it is, let's hope both teams make the final so that we can get an awesome gold medal game.

theAlaskanBear
09-10-2014, 04:32 PM
Once group play was a few games in, they should have seen what was going on, let everyone else play for the Bronze, and have the USA play Spain in a best of 7 to decide the gold and silver. That would have been epic!

As it is, let's hope both teams make the final so that we can get an awesome gold medal game.

France up on Spain 28-21 with 3 minutes left in the half. Broadcast on ESPN.

Ichabod Drain
09-10-2014, 04:46 PM
France up by 7 on Spain at the half 35-28.

theAlaskanBear
09-10-2014, 05:38 PM
Hell of a game. France about to knockout Spain. 1 minute to go.

Ichabod Drain
09-10-2014, 05:39 PM
Hell of a game. France about to knockout Spain. 1 minute to go.

Best game of the tournament so far. Spain down 8 with under a minute to go. France has hit the boards incredibly hard this game. Very impressive.

Troublemaker
09-10-2014, 05:54 PM
Gobert was a defensive monster inside. MVP of the game.

Zach Lowe had written about him a week ago here (http://grantland.com/the-triangle/rudy-gobert-utah-jazz-fiba-potential-7-footer-tyson-chandler/), in case anyone wanted more info on that beast

roywhite
09-10-2014, 05:55 PM
France 65 Spain 52 Final.

Congrats to France, and glad to see it.

Francly, I was tired of hearing about how great Spain was. Almost feels like a Tar Heel loss.

Troublemaker
09-10-2014, 06:23 PM
France 65 Spain 52 Final.

Congrats to France, and glad to see it.

Francly, I was tired of hearing about how great Spain was. Almost feels like a Tar Heel loss.

Spain is still a great team. I think the loss speaks more to the nature of 1-and-done tournaments than to Spain's quality. But I'm with you -- glad to see it. Obviously, USA's chances to win the tournament (and to avoid having to qualify for the Olympics next summer) have improved significantly.

CDu
09-10-2014, 06:28 PM
Spain is still a great team. I think the loss speaks more to the nature of 1-and-done tournaments than to Spain's quality. But I'm with you -- glad to see it. Obviously, USA's chances to win the tournament (and to avoid having to qualify for the Olympics next summer) have improved significantly.

Yeah, even really good teams lose to lesser foes sometimes. Single-elimination can often lead to surprising outcomes. This was certainly one of those times.

Great news for the USA. Just have to hold serve for two games.

jacone21
09-10-2014, 08:20 PM
Wow! Fran Fraschilla's going to have to find something else to fret about now.

MarkD83
09-10-2014, 08:24 PM
There is a small mistake in DBRs article about Spain's loss. They mentioned that the US and Spain could still play for the bronze. Spain lost in the quarterfinals and they are done. No medal at all.

roywhite
09-10-2014, 08:41 PM
There is a small mistake in DBRs article about Spain's loss. They mentioned that the US and Spain could still play for the bronze. Spain lost in the quarterfinals and they are done. No medal at all.

Yeah, losing by 13 at home in the quarterfinals -- not good.

The reign of Spain fell well before the main.

awhom111
09-10-2014, 09:32 PM
The Serbia final margin was 84-56. In the win, Bogdan Bogdanovic had 12 points and 6 rebounds and Miroslav Raduljica and Nenad Krstic had 10 points each. In the loss, Anderson Varejao had 12 points and 9 rebounds and Marquinhos had 12 points.

For France, Boris Diaw had 15 points. In the loss, Pau Gasol had 17 points and 8 rebounds and Juan Carlos Navarro had 10 points.

Note to those without full WatchESPN access, the game is not listed for those with only ESPN3 access.

mgtr
09-10-2014, 10:13 PM
The reign of Spain fell well before the main.

Niftily done, my friend, niftily done!

OldSchool
09-10-2014, 10:35 PM
Yeah, losing by 13 at home in the quarterfinals -- not good.

The reign of Spain fell well before the main.

Seemed like Pau Gasol had already checked out for the Costa del Sol. Not much energy on the boards. Wonder how much he has left in the NBA.

Henderson
09-10-2014, 10:56 PM
Note to those without full WatchESPN access, the game is not listed for those with only ESPN3 access.

I couldn't catch it live, and I don't have WatchESPN full access, so I streamed Spain/France on ESPN3. It shows up on their "Replay" schedule.

theAlaskanBear
09-11-2014, 12:12 AM
Seemed like Pau Gasol had already checked out for the Costa del Sol. Not much energy on the boards. Wonder how much he has left in the NBA.

Pau had 8 rebounds against a solid French interior defense. Gobert was a beast on the glass in this game, and a tough handle when he guarded Pau. Plus, Pau is so important offensively to the Spanish team he is usually not in a great position to offensive rebound. France played to stretch the floor with Diaw which also drew Pau away from the basket.

That said, Pau is a more talented offensive player than defensive, and I am sure he is relishing the chance to play next to Noah, where he wont have to expend as much energy crashing boards and defending in the post.

theAlaskanBear
09-11-2014, 12:15 AM
Gobert was a defensive monster inside. MVP of the game.

Zach Lowe had written about him a week ago here (http://grantland.com/the-triangle/rudy-gobert-utah-jazz-fiba-potential-7-footer-tyson-chandler/), in case anyone wanted more info on that beast

I snagged him in last years mock draft and have been following him closely ever since. He was injured early to start his rookie season, but he got spot minutes and played well in the summer league. He game is a lot smoother than it was, and he will turn into a great pick and roll player, both offensively and defensively.

OldSchool
09-11-2014, 12:40 AM
Pau had 8 rebounds against a solid French interior defense. Gobert was a beast on the glass in this game, and a tough handle when he guarded Pau. Plus, Pau is so important offensively to the Spanish team he is usually not in a great position to offensive rebound. France played to stretch the floor with Diaw which also drew Pau away from the basket.

That said, Pau is a more talented offensive player than defensive, and I am sure he is relishing the chance to play next to Noah, where he wont have to expend as much energy crashing boards and defending in the post.

As France started pulling away he just looked gassed in comparison to the French guys who were flying around and grabbing boards literally in front of his face.

I wonder how many minutes the Bulls will play him. They might want him to average under 30 to try to keep him fresh for late game situations.

awhom111
09-11-2014, 01:03 AM
I couldn't catch it live, and I don't have WatchESPN full access, so I streamed Spain/France on ESPN3. It shows up on their "Replay" schedule.

Sorry for confusing wording. I was referring to being able to watch a game live and I was actually referring our game on Thursday. Replays are a separate animal.

theAlaskanBear
09-11-2014, 01:14 AM
As France started pulling away he just looked gassed in comparison to the French guys who were flying around and grabbing boards literally in front of his face.

I wonder how many minutes the Bulls will play him. They might want him to average under 30 to try to keep him fresh for late game situations.

Given that they have Taj to split minutes with him, this is a reasonable assumption.

MChambers
09-11-2014, 05:45 AM
Yeah, losing by 13 at home in the quarterfinals -- not good.

The reign of Spain fell well before the main.
And mainly on the plain.

wilson
09-11-2014, 06:56 AM
The reign of Spain fell well before the main.


And mainly on the plain.You two are causing pain in my brain with this chain. Please rein it in, or perhaps refrain or abstain from further comments in this vein. For now, I'm still sane, but it's growing hard to maintain.

dukelifer
09-11-2014, 07:01 AM
Spain is still a great team. I think the loss speaks more to the nature of 1-and-done tournaments than to Spain's quality. But I'm with you -- glad to see it. Obviously, USA's chances to win the tournament (and to avoid having to qualify for the Olympics next summer) have improved significantly.

Not only that but Spain also beat by 20 in the earlier rounds - and played a bit like they expected France to fold. They really shot poorly in the first 3 quarters. France was not playing out of their heads until the 4th quarter.

wilson
09-11-2014, 07:42 AM
Not only that but Spain...played a bit like they expected France to fold. They really shot poorly in the first 3 quarters. France was not playing out of their heads until the 4th quarter.Juan Carlos Navarro essentially admitted as much in saying, "Everyone thought we had won this before it started, but we didn't prepare well for the game and were trying to play catchup the entire way."
http://espn.go.com/olympics/basketball/story/_/id/11504039/spain-bounced-basketball-world-cup-quarters-france

CDu
09-11-2014, 08:11 AM
As France started pulling away he just looked gassed in comparison to the French guys who were flying around and grabbing boards literally in front of his face.

I wonder how many minutes the Bulls will play him. They might want him to average under 30 to try to keep him fresh for late game situations.

As AlaskanBear mentioned, the Bulls have Taj Gibson ready to play 30+ mpg. They also have Nikola Mirotic as a 4th big who should be more than capable of giving 15 or so quality minutes. So I wouldn't have expected Gasol to play 30+ mpg anyway.

subzero02
09-11-2014, 08:54 AM
Spain shot 2 for 22 from 3 point range, a smidgen over 9 percent. A shooting performance that poor will cripple even the best teams.

CDu
09-11-2014, 09:21 AM
Spain shot 2 for 22 from 3 point range, a smidgen over 9 percent. A shooting performance that poor will cripple even the best teams.

Yeah, in international play, that's especially awful.

In looking at the box score, it seemed like basically nobody but Pau Gasol (17pts, 8 rebs, 3 blks, 7-12 fg) showed up to play.

Troublemaker
09-11-2014, 09:57 AM
Not only that but Spain also beat by 20 in the earlier rounds - and played a bit like they expected France to fold. They really shot poorly in the first 3 quarters. France was not playing out of their heads until the 4th quarter.

Yeah, I do think Spain's chances were diminished a bit when every team in their Group won its first knockout game, guaranteeing that Spain would have to win two rematches against teams they had already beaten in Group play just to make the Gold Medal Game.

Rematches are tough. Historically it's been very profitable for NBA Playoff bettors to just bet on the team that lost the previous game in the series. This is called the "Zig Zag Theory":
http://www.sportsinsights.com/blog/2014-nba-playoffs-updated-zig-zag-theory-system/

Game 2 in a series is an especially good spot to bet on the Game 1 loser:
http://www.vegasinsider.com/nba/story.cfm/story/1536458

Anecdotally, over many years of watching the NBA playoffs, I know the Zig Zag Theory is true. It just seems like the loser of Game 1, especially if they lose in a blowout, tends to cover and/or win Game 2 outright at a much higher rate than one would think.

It happened in this year's NBA Finals, for example. Spurs beat the outmatched Heat by 15 in Game 1, but then the Heat won Game 2 in San Antonio.

Now, over the course of a 7-game series, adjustments and re-adjustments get made between the two teams, and the inferior team eventually runs out of useful adjustments. If Spain and France had played a Games 3, 4, and 5, they may very well have looked like Games 3, 4, and 5 of the NBA Finals with Spain playing the Spurs' role. But, unfortunately for the Spaniards, Game 2 was a knockout game and they were knocked out.

Billy Dat
09-11-2014, 10:02 AM
Pau had 8 rebounds against a solid French interior defense. Gobert was a beast on the glass in this game, and a tough handle when he guarded Pau. Plus, Pau is so important offensively to the Spanish team he is usually not in a great position to offensive rebound. France played to stretch the floor with Diaw which also drew Pau away from the basket.

That said, Pau is a more talented offensive player than defensive, and I am sure he is relishing the chance to play next to Noah, where he wont have to expend as much energy crashing boards and defending in the post.

Wow, if I had known that all I needed to do to knock out Spain was to bemoan how bad every team save for the US and Spain were, I'd have written that post weeks ago.

I must admit mixed feelings. I was really hoping the US and Spain would reach the finals as it has been a great rivalry and winning the World Cup in front of the Spanish home fans would have been an amazing feat. Now, I'll go back to just wanting to beat Lithuania today.

I watched the second half of the game. Spain erased a 7 point halftime lead pretty quickly, and it was certainly time for France to cave as the fans were getting hyped up. But, France hung tough, aided by some really poor Spanish shot selection (Ibaka had the green light to jack 3s) and France's yeoman work on the glass, led by Gobert. Plus, it started getting chippy which I think worked against Spain. Fran Frashilla was commenting constantly, with good reason, about Spain's incessant complaining to the refs. I think they let the game pressure get in their heads way too early.

Still, though, this was anyone's game coming down the stretch. The back breaking plays were both made by French PG Thomas Heurtal who consecutively hit a very tough running lay-up and then a 3 with less than 3 minutes to play. Spain never recovered. Aside from Gobert and Diaw who both played really well down the stretch, and Heurtal, I was really impressed with Evan Fournier who I haven't really noticed in the NBA, although I haven't watched much of the Nuggets the past few years.

I guess Spain just had a bad game, but it seemed like the coach did not have a crunch time 5 that was ready to take care of business. Like the US, they haven't had a close game so they haven't had to execute down the stretch, but I assumed, having been together for so long, they'd know who should be on the court in a tight game. Instead, they kind of fell back to one on one hero ball.

This Spanish loss was probably a good thing for the US in terms of keeping them focused. Let's hope we can take care of business this afternoon.

SilkyJ
09-11-2014, 11:19 AM
Seemed like Pau Gasol had already checked out for the Costa del Sol. Not much energy on the boards. Wonder how much he has left in the NBA.

The dude played 7 games in 12 days, and still put up 17/8 in the 7th game. Give him a break! He was probably the MVP of the tournament to that point averaging 20 & 6, and tossing in 2+ blocks/game.

superdave
09-11-2014, 11:24 AM
Individual stats for players in the tourney so far - http://archive.usab.com/misc/14_mwc_indv_leaders.pdf

Individual stats for the US roster - http://www.fiba.com/basketballworldcup/2014/USA

The minutes are pretty spread out for our guys, so no one is running away with any particular stat. I do like the Faried-Davis- one-two punch and the Cousins-Gay three-four. Those guys are combining for 42.1 points, 23.4 rebounds, 4 blocks and 4.3 steals per game.

CDu
09-11-2014, 12:37 PM
The dude played 7 games in 12 days, and still put up 17/8 in the 7th game. Give him a break! He was probably the MVP of the tournament to that point averaging 20 & 6, and tossing in 2+ blocks/game.

Yeah, I agree. Gasol was the only guy to show up against France. I was expecting to see a pretty mediocre statline from him based on the comments, but he had a really good game in the loss. Can't say the same for pretty much anyone else on Spain's roster.

Gasol still looks like he'll be a presence in the NBA for a few more years.

flyingdutchdevil
09-11-2014, 12:47 PM
I have said this a few times in this thread, but I feel that Spain was overrated. The continuity argument and the home advantage argument hold water, but you know what doesn't? The talent level.

Gasol 1, Gasol 2, and Ibaka are the best players on that team. By a looooooooooooooong shot. But these players can only play the 4 or the 5, so one will always have to sit, and you are sacrificing something by sitting one of them (sit Gasol #1 and your offense/passing gets severely reduced, sit Gasol #2 and your defense/passing gets seduced, sit Ibaka and your energy/defense gets severely reduced)

The next tier of players are Calderon (great shooter, good playmaker, awful D), Rubio (great playermaker, awful shooting, mediocre D), Rudy Fernandez (great shooting, that's it. If he ain't hitting em, it's basically 4-on-5), and Navarro (great scorer, but he's old). None of these Tier 2 players would ever be considered for Team USA. Ever.

And Tier 3 are basically scrubs.

Am I shocked that Spain lost? Nope. I'm actually more shocked that France played this well, given that their backcourt is also pretty bad.

After this tournament, the reign of Spain is done. Gasol will be 36 for the next major tourney. Navarro will be 36. Calderon will get slower (not a good thing). There isn't much young talent. Basically, Spain will drop from second best to Tier 2.

DukieTiger
09-11-2014, 01:12 PM
I have said this a few times in this thread, but I feel that Spain was overrated. The continuity argument and the home advantage argument hold water, but you know what doesn't? The talent level.

Gasol 1, Gasol 2, and Ibaka are the best players on that team. By a looooooooooooooong shot. But these players can only play the 4 or the 5, so one will always have to sit, and you are sacrificing something by sitting one of them (sit Gasol #1 and your offense/passing gets severely reduced, sit Gasol #2 and your defense/passing gets seduced, sit Ibaka and your energy/defense gets severely reduced)


Marc Gasol is a good looking guy, but I think you're taking it a bit far with the above! :p

CDu
09-11-2014, 01:23 PM
I have said this a few times in this thread, but I feel that Spain was overrated. The continuity argument and the home advantage argument hold water, but you know what doesn't? The talent level.

Gasol 1, Gasol 2, and Ibaka are the best players on that team. By a looooooooooooooong shot. But these players can only play the 4 or the 5, so one will always have to sit, and you are sacrificing something by sitting one of them (sit Gasol #1 and your offense/passing gets severely reduced, sit Gasol #2 and your defense/passing gets seduced, sit Ibaka and your energy/defense gets severely reduced)

The next tier of players are Calderon (great shooter, good playmaker, awful D), Rubio (great playermaker, awful shooting, mediocre D), Rudy Fernandez (great shooting, that's it. If he ain't hitting em, it's basically 4-on-5), and Navarro (great scorer, but he's old). None of these Tier 2 players would ever be considered for Team USA. Ever.

And Tier 3 are basically scrubs.

Am I shocked that Spain lost? Nope. I'm actually more shocked that France played this well, given that their backcourt is also pretty bad.

After this tournament, the reign of Spain is done. Gasol will be 36 for the next major tourney. Navarro will be 36. Calderon will get slower (not a good thing). There isn't much young talent. Basically, Spain will drop from second best to Tier 2.

I disagree. Spain was, by talent, the second best team in this tournament, and it wasn't particularly close. No team other than the USA has 3 NBA All-Star caliber players on their roster. No other team has 7 or 8 NBA-caliber players on their roster. With the talent they had and the continuity they had, I think they were rightfully on the same tier as the USA.

And heck, I think Spain proved that they deserved their rating by beating everyone they played by 16 or more, including beating Brazil (arguably the third most talented team) by 19, Serbia (another strong contender for third best along with Lithuania) by 16, and beating France by 24.

Spain had an awful shooting game, shooting just 2-22 from 3 pt range. In international play, where teams can camp out in the lane on defense and prevent easy buckets, that's an absolute no-no. If they hit even 7-22 (which is still pretty bad for international play), they probably win. But they had, as a team, by far their worst shooting game of the tournament. Possibly their worst 3pt shooting game in their history.

To say that they were overrated based on what was so clearly an aberrant performance is sort of like saying that Duke was clearly overrated just because they lost to Team X earlier than expected in the tournament. In a single-elimination setting, the best team doesn't always win.

Billy Dat
09-11-2014, 01:24 PM
I have said this a few times in this thread, but I feel that Spain was overrated. The continuity argument and the home advantage argument hold water, but you know what doesn't? The talent level.

The Dutchman...I applaud your crystal ball and was witness to your trashing of Spain.

Give us some good feelings before today's Lithuania game.

Li_Duke
09-11-2014, 01:33 PM
I have said this a few times in this thread, but I feel that Spain was overrated. The continuity argument and the home advantage argument hold water, but you know what doesn't? The talent level.


If you pooled players from the US and Spain, Spain would have 3 of the best 4 bigs (Anthony Davis is the only US big on the level of the Gasols and Ibaka). They had an edge at 2 of the 5 positions on the court talent-wise, guys that usually don't hurt them at the other 3 spots, better team chemistry, and home advantage. In an elimination game with FIBA officiating, I think it could go either way if the US played them. Just see how closely they played the US in past tournaments when we had vastly better talent.

Duvall
09-11-2014, 01:37 PM
If you pooled players from the US and Spain, Spain would have 3 of the best 4 bigs (Anthony Davis is the only US big on the level of the Gasols and Ibaka). They had an edge at 2 of the 5 positions on the court talent-wise, guys that usually don't hurt them at the other 3 spots, better team chemistry, and home advantage. In an elimination game with FIBA officiating, I think it could go either way if the US played them. Just see how closely they played the US in past tournaments when we had vastly better talent.

I agree, but I'm wondering if the Gasols and Ibaka are on Davis' level in 2014.

COYS
09-11-2014, 01:42 PM
After this tournament, the reign of Spain is done. Gasol will be 36 for the next major tourney. Navarro will be 36. Calderon will get slower (not a good thing). There isn't much young talent. Basically, Spain will drop from second best to Tier 2.


On the other hand, I'm not sure that anyone (in the United States, at least) really saw Argentina or Spain's rise ahead of time. There will probably be a few international players who surprise us in the coming years, at least in terms of their success in the NBA. When Ginobli was drafted, who would've bet he was destined to become a HOF caliber shooting guard? Personally, I hope this is the case. When I watch international basketball, I am so torn because I'm rooting very hard for the USA to win at all times, but I also really want international basketball competitions to become so popular that they are almost as competitive and fun as the FIFA World Cup (although, I'd prefer this happen without an organization as corrupt as FIFA running it . . . sigh). For that to even begin to happen, another country or two will have to rise up as a basketball power and knock the USA off its perch at the top for a second time (counting 2002-2006 as one period). The next time, however, we won't be able to use the excuse that we didn't take the competition seriously. That will only make it more exciting for international basketball as a whole.

Troublemaker
09-11-2014, 01:55 PM
I think Spain should be okay in the future. Rubio is only 23 (and, I believe, underrated in this thread -- he might get a max contract), Ibaka is 24, Marc Gasol is 29. When a country has its point guard and frontcourt covered and just needs its development system to produce some wings to complement them, I think the country is sitting pretty. Spain won't be giving up World #2 status so easily.

flyingdutchdevil
09-11-2014, 02:01 PM
I disagree. Spain was, by talent, the second best team in this tournament, and it wasn't particularly close. No team other than the USA has 3 NBA All-Star caliber players on their roster. No other team has 7 or 8 NBA-caliber players on their roster. With the talent they had and the continuity they had, I think they were rightfully on the same tier as the USA.

And heck, I think Spain proved that they deserved their rating by beating everyone they played by 16 or more, including beating Brazil (arguably the third most talented team) by 19, Serbia (another strong contender for third best along with Lithuania) by 16, and beating France by 24.

Spain had an awful shooting game, shooting just 2-22 from 3 pt range. In international play, where teams can camp out in the lane on defense and prevent easy buckets, that's an absolute no-no. If they hit even 7-22 (which is still pretty bad for international play), they probably win. But they had, as a team, by far their worst shooting game of the tournament. Possibly their worst 3pt shooting game in their history.

To say that they were overrated based on what was so clearly an aberrant performance is sort of like saying that Duke was clearly overrated just because they lost to Team X earlier than expected in the tournament. In a single-elimination setting, the best team doesn't always win.

CDu - it's in your right to disagree. But I disagree with you. The debate has never been "who is second best," because we all knew that it's Spain (and, like you said, probably not that close). I had always debated that the US was by far the favorite and should be the favorite. If the US is a 10 on the favorite scale, Spain would be a 7 and no other team would be a 3.

The one-and-done nature of this tournament prevents you nor I from being proven correctly, but I will argue that Spain just didn't have enough talent on the wings and guards. I really feel that Rubio, Navarro, Calderon, and Fernandez is a weak core.

Spain's shooting was poor during the game, but they didn't have an effective strategy to counter the poor shooting. Gasol #1 played well, but his compatriots showed little ball movement (9 assists) and basically played like Irving-Curry-Harden: take your man one-on-one and shoot the ball. The only problem is that Rubio-Fernandez-Navarro are 1/4 as talented as the US trio.

Lastly, I never said that they were overrated because they lost. I said that they were overrated because they were overrated. I never bought into the arguments of continuity or home court advantage. I think many overlooked the arguments of talent and coaching, both of which the US has plenty of. Like you said, this isn't something that can be proven or disproven because of the nature of the one-and-done tourney.

flyingdutchdevil
09-11-2014, 02:04 PM
I think Spain should be okay in the future. Rubio is only 23 (and, I believe, underrated in this thread -- he might get a max contract), Ibaka is 24, Marc Gasol is 29. When a country has its point guard and frontcourt covered and just needs its development system to produce some wings to complement them, I think the country is sitting pretty. Spain won't be giving up World #2 status so easily.

Rubio is young but hasn't shown that much improvement over the last few years. His ppg have decreased, his apg have remained the same, he's shooting 3pt at a worse clip than his rookie season, and his PER is 15.35 (15.00 is the NBA 'average'). If Rubio is the long-term solution for Spain, than the US should be rejoicing.

I agree with Ibaka and Gasol 2.0; they have a few more years left.

But the rest of the team is in flux. I'm not sure that a Spaniard has even been drafted in the last 2 years. I may be wrong, though.

CDu
09-11-2014, 02:07 PM
CDu - it's in your right to disagree. But I disagree with you. The debate has never been "who is second best," because we all knew that it's Spain (and, like you said, probably not that close). I had always debated that the US was by far the favorite and should be the favorite. If the US is a 10 on the favorite scale, Spain would be a 7 and no other team would be a 3.

The one-and-done nature of this tournament prevents you nor I from being proven correctly, but I will argue that Spain just didn't have enough talent on the wings and guards. I really feel that Rubio, Navarro, Calderon, and Fernandez is a weak core.

Spain's shooting was poor during the game, but they didn't have an effective strategy to counter the poor shooting. Gasol #1 played well, but his compatriots showed little ball movement (9 assists) and basically played like Irving-Curry-Harden: take your man one-on-one and shoot the ball. The only problem is that Rubio-Fernandez-Navarro are 1/4 as talented as the US trio.

Lastly, I never said that they were overrated because they lost. I said that they were overrated because they were overrated. I never bought into the arguments of continuity or home court advantage. I think many overlooked the arguments of talent and coaching, both of which the US has plenty of. Like you said, this isn't something that can be proven or disproven because of the nature of the one-and-done tourney.

I think we're closer to agreement than I thought based on your first post. But I do still ultimately disagree. Not so much with the idea that they are a 7 in talent to USA's 10, but on the idea that they were overrated.

This is basically the same Spain team that pushed the US to the brink in the gold medal game of the Olympics. But this US team is not nearly as good as that Olympic US team. So I think that Spain (with the added benefit of continuity and home court) were absolutely a reasonable pick to win the tournament.

Unfortunately, they played an absolute dud of a game, and thus we won't get the chance to see that matchup.

flyingdutchdevil
09-11-2014, 02:08 PM
I think Spain should be okay in the future. Rubio is only 23 (and, I believe, underrated in this thread -- he might get a max contract), Ibaka is 24, Marc Gasol is 29. When a country has its point guard and frontcourt covered and just needs its development system to produce some wings to complement them, I think the country is sitting pretty. Spain won't be giving up World #2 status so easily.

Last thing - if Rubio gets a max contract, the Minny GM needs to be fired asap. That's insane to give that much money to an average player. Shame on Minny for even thinking that.

flyingdutchdevil
09-11-2014, 02:16 PM
I think we're closer to agreement than I thought based on your first post. But I do still ultimately disagree. Not so much with the idea that they are a 7 in talent to USA's 10, but on the idea that they were overrated.

This is basically the same Spain team that pushed the US to the brink in the gold medal game of the Olympics. But this US team is not nearly as good as that Olympic US team. So I think that Spain (with the added benefit of continuity and home court) were absolutely a reasonable pick to win the tournament.

Unfortunately, they played an absolute dud of a game, and thus we won't get the chance to see that matchup.

Yeah, Spain did push the US hard. But the guards and wings got old and have the same issues (some can't shoot, some can't drive, all can't defend), and Rubio is just not the solution. I think 18-year old Rubio that Coach K gushed over and 23-year old Rubio are basically the same player.

Gasol #1 still has it, Gasol #2 is improving, and Ibaka doesn't play as much as he should (which makes sense, given that Gasol #1 and #2 are clearly better).

dukebluesincebirth
09-11-2014, 02:20 PM
I'd love to be able to hear Coach K's pregame speech today to Team U.S.A. playing on the anniversary of 9/11. I bet there'll be some chill bumps in the locker room!☺️ Go get em men!

Billy Dat
09-11-2014, 02:23 PM
On the other hand, I'm not sure that anyone (in the United States, at least) really saw Argentina or Spain's rise ahead of time. There will probably be a few international players who surprise us in the coming years, at least in terms of their success in the NBA. When Ginobli was drafted, who would've bet he was destined to become a HOF caliber shooting guard? Personally, I hope this is the case. When I watch international basketball, I am so torn because I'm rooting very hard for the USA to win at all times, but I also really want international basketball competitions to become so popular that they are almost as competitive and fun as the FIFA World Cup (although, I'd prefer this happen without an organization as corrupt as FIFA running it . . . sigh). For that to even begin to happen, another country or two will have to rise up as a basketball power and knock the USA off its perch at the top for a second time (counting 2002-2006 as one period). The next time, however, we won't be able to use the excuse that we didn't take the competition seriously. That will only make it more exciting for international basketball as a whole.

Canada is the sleeping giant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadians_in_the_National_Basketball_Assoc iation

Troublemaker
09-11-2014, 03:14 PM
USA's depth will be tested here. Faried, Harden, and Curry with 2 fouls each.

It's early, but this is shaping up to be our France test. Hope we pass it.