PDA

View Full Version : So ND joins the ACC and...



MaxAMillion
08-15-2014, 02:11 PM
I wonder where this will lead...

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/sources--notre-dame-investigating-potential-academic-fraud-that-could-involve-football-players-174318867.html

uh_no
08-15-2014, 02:24 PM
I wonder where this will lead...

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/sources--notre-dame-investigating-potential-academic-fraud-that-could-involve-football-players-174318867.html

joins miami, FSU, and UNC in the league of champions.

chrishoke
08-15-2014, 02:26 PM
Bad things happen to everyone. I'm betting ND acts with integrity and handles this well.

Bob Green
08-15-2014, 03:30 PM
Bad things happen to everyone. I'm betting ND acts with integrity and handles this well.

Exactly, it isn't the crime that gets you it is the cover up. My expectation is we will not see any cover up attempt out of South Bend.

JasonEvans
08-15-2014, 03:55 PM
Stunned by the number of tweets and reports that are saying "UNC-like" when talking about this. Apparently, our good friends down the road have become the standard when it comes to academic scandals. How nice for them...

-Jason "I bet it takes ND less than 5 years to figure out exactly what happened" Evans

JasonEvans
08-15-2014, 04:01 PM
It is worth noting that this scandal appears to be in the football program... which did not join the ACC.

Ima Facultiwyfe
08-15-2014, 04:16 PM
It is worth noting that this scandal appears to be in the football program... which did not join the ACC.

It's also worth noting that this appears to apply to players themselves rather than to a cheating system provided them by the university.
Love, Ima

johnb
08-15-2014, 04:18 PM
It is worth noting that this scandal appears to be in the football program... which did not join the ACC.

Speaking of ND not joining the ACC, any update on their needing to join the ACC given this week's turn of events?

Duvall
08-15-2014, 04:20 PM
Speaking of ND not joining the ACC, any update on their needing to join the ACC given this week's turn of events?

Which turn of events? Anyway, Notre Dame doesn't need to join the ACC in football.

sagegrouse
08-15-2014, 04:51 PM
I don't worry about academic scandals at Notre Dame -- it will be given the benefit of the doubt because of its overall academic reputation.

As I think about it, the aggravating thing for the UNCers is that the plain facts against UNC are so stark that the UNC alums can't say, "Everybody does it." Every person alive believes that Duke athletes (a) go to class and (b) do at least a reasonable amount of schoolwork. The problem for UNC is that the no-show classes were essentially a "free pass" to do nothing but sports at a supposedly high-ranked public institution.

This last paragraph is why I am fairly certain that the UNC Board will ensure that this stuff doesn't happen again.

Duvall
08-15-2014, 05:05 PM
I don't worry about academic scandals at Notre Dame -- it will be given the benefit of the doubt because of its overall academic reputation.


I disagree completely. The desire from the sports media to see Notre Dame "put in its place" is palpable, and will ensure that this story gets saturation coverage that the UNC scandal never got.

CameronBlue
08-15-2014, 05:15 PM
Bad things happen to everyone. I'm betting ND acts with integrity and handles this well.

Not the biggest fan of Notre Dame but I tend to agree. Good for them that UNC has set the bar for "how to respond to allegations of impropriety" pretty low. Course, UNC prides itself on establishing standards of performance no other school can achieve. ND has its work cut out for it; if it goes all out, it's going to be a helluva witch hunt.

Edouble
08-15-2014, 05:39 PM
joins miami, FSU, and UNC in the league of champions.

Hall of "Honors"... *snicker*

MCFinARL
08-15-2014, 06:49 PM
It's also worth noting that this appears to apply to players themselves rather than to a cheating system provided them by the university.
Love, Ima

Yes, this is a really important point. At least based on what we have seen reported so far, there is no suggestion that anyone in authority in either academics or athletics was complicit in this. So it's quite different from the UNC situation and there is a lot less incentive for the university to try to cover it up (which, as Bob Green pointed out, is where thing get much worse in a hurry).

MarkD83
08-15-2014, 07:57 PM
I disagree completely. The desire from the sports media to see Notre Dame "put in its place" is palpable, and will ensure that this story gets saturation coverage that the UNC scandal never got.

Except that I expect ND to do the right thing and find out who was involved and quickly apply the appropriate penalties (relinquish wins among other things). This will reduce the media coverage. In fact I think this entire issue will be resolved by ND before their first football game and by mid November there will only be a sentence or two written about this.

Olympic Fan
08-16-2014, 12:21 AM
Except that I expect ND to do the right thing and find out who was involved and quickly apply the appropriate penalties (relinquish wins among other things). This will reduce the media coverage. In fact I think this entire issue will be resolved by ND before their first football game and by mid November there will only be a sentence or two written about this.

This ... I will judge Notre Dame on how they handle the scandal. Will they get to the bottom of it quickly and apply the appropriate punishments? Or will they try to hide and cover up and escape punishment?

I have a lot of respect for Notre Dame and think they will do the right thing ... but until 3-4 years ago, I had a lot of respect for UNC and thought they would do the right thing.

I hope I'm not wrong again.

ancienteagle
08-16-2014, 09:33 AM
joins miami, FSU, and UNC in the league of champions.





Think they're trying to give Bubba some cover?

Dev11
08-16-2014, 10:47 AM
Every person alive believes that Duke athletes (a) go to class and (b) do at least a reasonable amount of schoolwork.

That isn't true. I tend to believe it, but I've met a number of people who have stated that they don't think that the guys in the revenue sports have the same academic burden as everybody else. Sure, they go to class, but that doesn't mean they do all the same work in the same classes. It's not UNC-level cheating, but it could be lax enforcement of the academic standard.

If it can happen at Notre Dame, it can happen at Duke. I hope all the staff and students don't let that be the case.

sagegrouse
08-16-2014, 10:51 AM
Please don't conflate Notre Dam and UNC.

There is a fundamental difference: Notre Dame has fallen victim to the ever present danger: star athletes have papers written for them by other students, either gratis or as a measure of adulation. The ND four, however, were turned in by a member of the academic counseling staff.

At UNC, it was a university-led academic scandal: an academic department, which is overseen by an academic dean, (no, not phys ed or "parks and recreation") set up totally bogus courses at the 400-level that required essentially no work, and there were no classes.. The academic counseling staff for the athletes steered them into the courses. Except for displaying a lack of academic ambition, it seems like the UNC athletes did nothing wrong; all the wrong-doing was on the side of the faculty and staff. Moreover, when an academic counselor (Mary W.) piped up and said that many athletes were totally unqualified for college and were required to do no serious work while at school, she was tarred and feathered and forced into a posture of humiliation. (E.g., her every written word was Googled and checked for evidence of plagiarism). Her successors will probably have every second of their private and public lives on video, in case they should have the temerity to question something in UNC athletics.

Dev11
08-16-2014, 12:08 PM
Please don't conflate Notre Dam and UNC.

There is a fundamental difference: Notre Dame has fallen victim to the ever present danger: star athletes have papers written for them by other students, either gratis or as a measure of adulation. The ND four, however, were turned in by a member of the academic counseling staff.

At UNC, it was a university-led academic scandal: an academic department, which is overseen by an academic dean, (no, not phys ed or "parks and recreation") set up totally bogus courses at the 400-level that required essentially no work, and there were no classes.. The academic counseling staff for the athletes steered them into the courses. Except for displaying a lack of academic ambition, it seems like the UNC athletes did nothing wrong; all the wrong-doing was on the side of the faculty and staff. Moreover, when an academic counselor (Mary W.) piped up and said that many athletes were totally unqualified for college and were required to do no serious work while at school, she was tarred and feathered and forced into a posture of humiliation. (E.g., her every written word was Googled and checked for evidence of plagiarism). Her successors will probably have every second of their private and public lives on video, in case they should have the temerity to question something in UNC athletics.

I appreciate the difference between what happened at UNC and what happened at Notre Dame. What I meant was that the thing that happened at Notre Dame could certainly happen at Duke, and it would fly in the face of 'everybody' believing that all th Duke players go to class and work to a standard Duke academic workload.

I don't think what happened at UNC could happen at Duke.

sagegrouse
08-16-2014, 04:49 PM
I don't think what happened at UNC could happen at Duke.

It did happen at Duke -- about 40 years ago. I won't use player names. But at least two coeds tutoring football players got fed up with doing all the athletes' work and turned themselves in. "Really," said one, "he was dumb as a post."

Duvall
08-16-2014, 05:47 PM
It did happen at Duke -- about 40 years ago. I won't use player names. But at least two coeds tutoring football players got fed up with doing all the athletes' work and turned themselves in. "Really," said one, "he was dumb as a post."

Unless there's a lot more to that story, that is not what happened at UNC. Is there?

MaxAMillion
08-16-2014, 06:16 PM
I have to say that it does bother me that people can compare this to UNC and then act like that means nothing. I also believe ND will get to the bottom o fit and apply appropriate punishment. Heck the Harvard cheating scandal shows that students can cheat anywhere. I just wish more questions were asked about the UNC scandal by the national media. I am sure they won't let this ND scandal go until they receive full discovery.

sagegrouse
08-16-2014, 06:50 PM
Unless there's a lot more to that story, that is not what happened at UNC. Is there?

Despite the clear quote, for some reason I was thinking of a comparison to ND,

Kdogg
08-16-2014, 07:07 PM
Unless it was academic tutors doing the school work or if the coaches knew about it, I really don't see what the big deal is. The story is basically: college students suspected of cheating. It happens everywhere. The fact that they are football players is irrelevant. ND (like Duke) has a history of investigating and doling out the appropriate punishment in line with their honor code. Most recently ND's star quarterback was suspended from school for a year because of cheating.

alteran
08-16-2014, 10:16 PM
Course, UNC prides itself on establishing standards of performance no other school can achieve.

Turns out they were right, just not in the way they thought they were.

Of course, now UNC has provided a roadmap for cheating like mad and avoiding massive NCAA sanctions on a technicality-- just make sure that you have a few more non-athletes in the cheating program, and the NCAA flags it all as "academic, not athletic." All you have to do is not care about your reputation.

johnb
08-18-2014, 01:24 AM
Which turn of events? Anyway, Notre Dame doesn't need to join the ACC in football.

we could be in ND's shoes any year. I'd like to think we wouldn't be in Carolina's shoes in regards to institutional acceptance of cheating.

this may not be the right thread, but, if there's a big 5 for football, why doesn't ND have to join up?

Duvall
08-18-2014, 01:41 AM
we could be in ND's shoes any year. I'd like to think we wouldn't be in Carolina's shoes in regards to institutional acceptance of cheating.

this may not be the right thread, but, if there's a big 5 for football, why doesn't ND have to join up?

Because Notre Dame is popular enough to have its own television contract, and popular enough with ESPN to get guaranteed access to the network's fake made-for-TV tournament. That won't change any time in the next ten years, and probably longer.

lotusland
08-18-2014, 04:27 PM
Because Notre Dame is popular enough to have its own television contract, and popular enough with ESPN to get guaranteed access to the network's fake made-for-TV tournament. That won't change any time in the next ten years, and probably longer.

so instead of the BCS, ESPN chooses the playoff teams now? So what was the point of all the conference realignment?

Duvall
08-18-2014, 05:56 PM
so instead of the BCS, ESPN chooses the playoff teams now?

No, ESPN set up the system under which the playoff teams are chosen, a system in which Notre Dame has an explicitly protected role.


So what was the point of all the conference realignment?

To improve the product that ESPN packages around its commercials.

Newton_14
08-18-2014, 09:22 PM
That isn't true. I tend to believe it, but I've met a number of people who have stated that they don't think that the guys in the revenue sports have the same academic burden as everybody else. Sure, they go to class, but that doesn't mean they do all the same work in the same classes. It's not UNC-level cheating, but it could be lax enforcement of the academic standard.

If it can happen at Notre Dame, it can happen at Duke. I hope all the staff and students don't let that be the case.

I have always believed that Duke Football and Basketball players go to real classes filled with non-athlete students, taking the same curriculum as the non-athlete's, same coursework, same tests, etc. I will continue to believe that until shown otherwise. Now, like any other "group" of people, not all of them take the same majors, and some majors are more difficult than others. Miles Plumlee for example started out in an extremely difficult major his freshman year, then changed majors as a Sophomore, but even there, did not drop down to basket weaving. It was still a solid major, just less difficult than the original.

So I would assume some take extremely difficult majors, others moderately difficult majors, and some take the easiest majors possible, but the point is, they all go to regular classes. With their travelling, they obviously have to miss class time and make that work up, but I believe the young man responsible for the basketball team's academics (name escapes me) is 100% on top of that at all times, making sure the guys know their requirements, and making sure the guys perform that work adequately, and finish their assignments on time.

Unless proven otherwise, I fully believe all of the above. If that makes me a naïve sucker then so be it.

Henderson
08-19-2014, 10:02 AM
There's a sharp distinction to be drawn between academic fraud committed by student-athletes and academic fraud committed by a university. The former can happen at any university, and it undoubtedly does. But the latter goes to the heart of a university's very commitment to academics, and I'm sure it's less common. People who see the two as somehow equivalent ("See, even ND does it, so cut UNC a break") have very poor discernment skills. Other posters have made approximately the same point above.

The two types of fraud are, however, related in this way: How a university responds to academic fraud by students says a lot about that core commitment to academics. ND is under a microscope on this one and really does have an institutional commitment to academics. So I'm pretty sure they'll handle it well, and UNC-CH will continue uncomfortably to sit at the far end of the "commitment to academics" spectrum. They need the Wainstein report and aggressive action by the UNC BoG to help bring them away from that end of the spectrum.

Tappan Zee Devil
08-19-2014, 12:09 PM
There's a sharp distinction to be drawn between academic fraud committed by student-athletes and academic fraud committed by a university. The former can happen at any university, and it undoubtedly does. But the latter goes to the heart of a university's very commitment to academics, and I'm sure it's less common. People who see the two as somehow equivalent ("See, even ND does it, so cut UNC a break") have very poor discernment skills. Other posters have made approximately the same point above.

The two types of fraud are, however, related in this way: How a university responds to academic fraud by students says a lot about that core commitment to academics. ND is under a microscope on this one and really does have an institutional commitment to academics. So I'm pretty sure they'll handle it well, and UNC-CH will continue uncomfortably to sit at the far end of the "commitment to academics" spectrum. They need the Wainstein report and aggressive action by the UNC BoG to help bring them away from that end of the spectrum.

Not allowed to spork you - but very well said, sir.

MarkD83
08-19-2014, 12:22 PM
There's a sharp distinction to be drawn between academic fraud committed by student-athletes and academic fraud committed by a university. The former can happen at any university, and it undoubtedly does. But the latter goes to the heart of a university's very commitment to academics, and I'm sure it's less common. People who see the two as somehow equivalent ("See, even ND does it, so cut UNC a break") have very poor discernment skills. Other posters have made approximately the same point above.

The two types of fraud are, however, related in this way: How a university responds to academic fraud by students says a lot about that core commitment to academics. ND is under a microscope on this one and really does have an institutional commitment to academics. So I'm pretty sure they'll handle it well, and UNC-CH will continue uncomfortably to sit at the far end of the "commitment to academics" spectrum. They need the Wainstein report and aggressive action by the UNC BoG to help bring them away from that end of the spectrum.

Very well said. However, to do the right thing UNC does not need any more reports. They have admitted by firing the head of the department that something was wrong. Athletes were taking these classes so they need to just take the agressive action.

Henderson
08-19-2014, 01:23 PM
However, to do the right thing UNC does not need any more reports. They have admitted by firing the head of the department that something was wrong. Athletes were taking these classes so they need to just take the agressive action.

Agreed. UNC-CH has blown through opportunities to get this right. They get another opportunity after the BoG takes action on the Wainstein report.

sagegrouse
08-19-2014, 06:10 PM
Agreed. UNC-CH has blown through opportunities to get this right. They get another opportunity after the BoG takes action on the Wainstein report.

I would not be surprised if a majority of the Board of Governors come up with something like this:


The actions of the UNC athletic department and certain academic departments are an embarrassment to the university, to its students and alumni, to the Board, and to me personally.

We want our athletic teams to be successful in the conference and on a national basis, but we want the student-athletes who go to UNC to get a good college education. We do not believe the two objectives are incompatible.

We hereby direct the UNC-CH Chancellor to ensure that (a) all student athletes admitted to UNC are capable of doing college-level work; (b) they take courses of instruction that lead toward an undergraduate degree at UNC; (c) all courses offered to athletes and other students meet the proper standards of the University of North Carolina; and (d) that academic counseling for athletes is independent of the athletic department and reports to the appropriate academic official.


As Henderson and I have both noted, the UNC scandal is not about athletes cheating but about UNC arranging fraudulent, undemanding courses of instruction that cheat both the athletes as students and their legitimate competitors in college sports.