Great article on how playground basketball is dying

[FerryFor50]

http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/11216972/playground-basketball-dying

Some stuff in there about Jabari in Chicago. Reminds me of how arcades are dying, too.

[Duke3517]

Most kids just want to play video games.

[Reisen]

I think you're seeing a professionalization of the talent pipeline, similar to European soccer youth development, which isn't necessarily bad. Certainly, the addition of referees and a safer environment is probably better for the players. The travel aspects to AAU ball probably also enable them to go up against more skilled competition. No one seems to be arguing the US isn't putting out a high volume of talented player, just that they're honing their game somewhere other than urban playgrounds.

I also suspect you're seeing a bit of diversification among sports. Urban youths probably have more opportunities than before to try new things, and that could include golf, tennis, lacrosse, soccer, baseball, etc. Other sports have made outreach programs to try to diversify, and the communities themselves have evolved to be less one-dimensional around a single sport.

[lotusland]

Our neighborhood park had a full court concrete outdoor court that had been abandoned except for skateboarders for many years. A benevolent neighbor donated two commercial goals (about $1000 each) and we put the goals up, pressure washed the court and painted lines for the lanes, 3 point lines and half court. The new court was extremely popular but unfortunately it attracted players in droves from out of the neighborhood. On weekends the parking lot was full with cars were parked all along the entrance road and even in front of houses near the park. Naturally neighbors began to complain and our off-duty police patrols warned that some of the players were N. Charleston gang-bangers. Two weeks ago someone cut the commercial goal posts off at the ground with a hack saw. We assume it was a neighbor who was tired of the crowds and traffic but once again the court is abandoned and there are no plans to replace the goals.

[johnb]

Two weeks ago someone cut the commercial goal posts off at the ground with a hack saw. We assume it was a neighbor who was tired of the crowds ....

I guess the teens needed to form a community watch against the neighbors.

[BD80]

My first thought was that the decline in playground basketball would in some measure reduce violence ...

then I remembered PJ

[Henderson]

Most kids just want to play video games.

If you actually read the article, there are some pretty interesting complex explanations. Or you can just throw out simplistic uninformed commentary. Either works.

[toooskies]

If you actually read the article, there are some pretty interesting complex explanations. Or you can just throw out simplistic uninformed commentary. Either works.

There are also some terrible explanations, like "People don't want to ruin expensive footwear." One recreational activity displacing the other sound like a much more plausible reason than that.

[Faison1]

If you actually read the article, there are some pretty interesting complex explanations. Or you can just throw out simplistic uninformed commentary. Either works.

I hear kids these days just fatter than they used to be.

[Faison1]

There are also some terrible explanations, like "People don't want to ruin expensive footwear."

On the surface, yes, that sounds horrible.....but when you think about it, if you're really into some hobby or sport, and you buy an expensive product to participate, wouldn't you rather create some longevity for that product, especially if it's meaningful to you?

I'm not a hoops player, so I don't know the cost of shoes these days. I'm guessing the best ones are over $200. Playing on concrete vs. hardwoods probably dramatically shortens the life of those shoes.

Put another way, let's say you're a cyclist and you own a $8,000 bike that you are very proud of. Are you more or less likely to ride it on gravel all the time?

[Edouble]

On the surface, yes, that sounds horrible.....but when you think about it, if you're really into some hobby or sport, and you buy an expensive product to participate, wouldn't you rather create some longevity for that product, especially if it's meaningful to you?

I'm not a hoops player, so I don't know the cost of shoes these days. I'm guessing the best ones are over $200. Playing on concrete vs. hardwoods probably dramatically shortens the life of those shoes.

Put another way, let's say you're a cyclist and you own a $8,000 bike that you are very proud of. Are you more or less likely to ride it on gravel all the time?

When I was in high school, I had a $50 indoor ball, and a $10 outdoor ball. You could certainly take a similar approach with shoes.

[FerryFor50]

When I was in high school, I had a $50 indoor ball, and a $10 outdoor ball. You could certainly take a similar approach with shoes.

Eh, you ever try playing in a pair of $10 sneakers? (think Starburys)

A $10 ball won't tear your knees, ankles and feet up.

[tommy]

Here's another one (http://grantland.com/features/nyc-basketball-decline-lance-stephenson-kareem-abdul-jabbar-stephon-marbury-kenny-anderson-tom-konchalski-nba/), from Grantland, about the dying New York City basketball culture. Sad.

[Edouble]

Eh, you ever try playing in a pair of $10 sneakers? (think Starburys)

A $10 ball won't tear your knees, ankles and feet up.

You're kidding right?

I'm not talking about spending $10 on shoes, but on having a top end pair for indoors and a less expensive pair for outdoors. If you are concerned, from a looks standpoint, regarding wear and tear on a $200 pair of Jordans, you can have an alternate outdoor pair that you spend less on because you know they are going to get worn down more quickly.

The poster I responded to mentioned that he thought maybe kids were playing less outdoors b/c of concerns over the longevity of $200 shoes. You can certainly spend half that and get a pair that is fully functional and supportive for outdoor use.

[UrinalCake]

Anyone who has seen me in a pickup game recently can confirm that playground ball is in fact dying.

[toooskies]

You're kidding right?

I'm not talking about spending $10 on shoes, but on having a top end pair for indoors and a less expensive pair for outdoors. If you are concerned, from a looks standpoint, regarding wear and tear on a $200 pair of Jordans, you can have an alternate outdoor pair that you spend less on because you know they are going to get worn down more quickly.

The poster I responded to mentioned that he thought maybe kids were playing less outdoors b/c of concerns over the longevity of $200 shoes. You can certainly spend half that and get a pair that is fully functional and supportive for outdoor use.

And all of this assumes that teenagers are forward-thinking enough to preserve $200 investments, and are concerned about the health of their knees and feet.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

I'm reminded of something Coach K said about leadership and the way kids are developing now. He believes that since they are all being organized and guided through the process at most ever level, they aren't learning to do it themselves. They aren't developing leadership skills the way he did on the sidewalks of Chicago. That's contributing to the difficulty of finding leaders for teams at this level. Now he frequently has to teach that, too. That's why teams with players who hang around longer are much more cohesive.
Love, Ima

[throatybeard]

I have no idea whether teenagers are or are not taking care of their shoes. I'm inordinately proud of my Nike Cortez 72s and I have a spray that removes the schmutz from them, but they're several years out of style and only $70. Once a year I walk into a Nike outlet and stick my foot out and ask "do you have these?" The employee knows immediately every time. I just got a pair in Effingham, Illinois two days ago.

What I do know is that playground basketball is alive and well in North Saint Louis and University City...but like everything else in this town, it's a highly racialized practice, and whether they're willing to admit it or not, everyone knows it. Basketball goals have been removed from many parks in the last fifty years in the evolving, Mandelbrotian racial boundaries of the City, because basketball goals are code for "African American youngsters are welcome here."

Think about this, seriously. The principle geographic feature of Saint Louis is not really Mr Saarinen's elegant parabola; it's Forest Park. Smack in the middle of everything, we have a park several times the size of Central Park In NYC (which is itself huge). Forest Park has hosted a Worlds' Fair and the summer Olympics. It is home to the zoo, the art museum, the history museum, the science museum, a couple golf courses, our Shakespeare festival, the Muny (our Broadway musical outfit), another music festival that takes place on Tuesdays, various cultural events on Art Hill, the boathouse, and whatever the heck the Jewel Box is. (I think it's a greenhouse, but I've never been). It hosts countless weddings, several each weekend. It is an enormous public good.

And it is--get this--largely financed by a tax on the County. All the people who flighted to the County in the last six decades and their descendants agree to pay a small tax to maintain a park in the City they fled. That's a rare situation in America. Can you imagine people in Cobb agreeing to pay a tax to keep up Grant Park in Atlanta? People in Plano paying for a park in Dallas?

But, nota bene: there is not one single basketball goal in Forest Park.

The block my house is on is about 90% African American, populated mostly by grandmothers and great grandmothers, whose kids are over all the time. If you go up the back alley, you can see that basketball goals are as numerous in their backyards as they are in the suburbs in North Carolina and Indiana and Kentucky. We're three blocks north of the best urban park in the United States of America (IMO). But the kids here can't play basketball in the park. They can play basketball in the small parks north of Delmar. But not in Forest Park. Basketball not welcome here.

Chris Carrawell is from here. But he couldn't hoop in the main park in his City.

[tommy]

What I do know is that playground basketball is alive and well in North Saint Louis and University City...but like everything else in this town, it's a highly racialized practice, and whether they're willing to admit it or not, everyone knows it. Basketball goals have been removed from many parks in the last fifty years in the evolving, Mandelbrotian racial boundaries of the City, because basketball goals are code for "African American youngsters are welcome here."



But, nota bene: there is not one single basketball goal in Forest Park.


And the converse of your sentence is "the absence of basketball goals are code for 'African American youngsters are not welcome here.'" That cuts to the bone, but unfortunately is very sad and very true. Great post throaty.

[Henderson]

I have no idea whether teenagers are or are not taking care of their shoes. I'm inordinately proud of my Nike Cortez 72s and I have a spray that removes the schmutz from them, but they're several years out of style and only $70. Once a year I walk into a Nike outlet and stick my foot out and ask "do you have these?" The employee knows immediately every time. I just got a pair in Effingham, Illinois two days ago.

What I do know is that playground basketball is alive and well in North Saint Louis and University City...but like everything else in this town, it's a highly racialized practice, and whether they're willing to admit it or not, everyone knows it. Basketball goals have been removed from many parks in the last fifty years in the evolving, Mandelbrotian racial boundaries of the City, because basketball goals are code for "African American youngsters are welcome here."

Think about this, seriously. The principle geographic feature of Saint Louis is not really Mr Saarinen's elegant parabola; it's Forest Park. Smack in the middle of everything, we have a park several times the size of Central Park In NYC (which is itself huge). Forest Park has hosted a Worlds' Fair and the summer Olympics. It is home to the zoo, the art museum, the history museum, the science museum, a couple golf courses, our Shakespeare festival, the Muny (our Broadway musical outfit), another music festival that takes place on Tuesdays, various cultural events on Art Hill, the boathouse, and whatever the heck the Jewel Box is. (I think it's a greenhouse, but I've never been). It hosts countless weddings, several each weekend. It is an enormous public good.

And it is--get this--largely financed by a tax on the County. All the people who flighted to the County in the last six decades and their descendants agree to pay a small tax to maintain a park in the City they fled. That's a rare situation in America. Can you imagine people in Cobb agreeing to pay a tax to keep up Grant Park in Atlanta? People in Plano paying for a park in Dallas?

But, nota bene: there is not one single basketball goal in Forest Park.

The block my house is on is about 90% African American, populated mostly by grandmothers and great grandmothers, whose kids are over all the time. If you go up the back alley, you can see that basketball goals are as numerous in their backyards as they are in the suburbs in North Carolina and Indiana and Kentucky. We're three blocks north of the best urban park in the United States of America (IMO). But the kids here can't play basketball in the park. They can play basketball in the small parks north of Delmar. But not in Forest Park. Basketball not welcome here.

Chris Carrawell is from here. But he couldn't hoop in the main park in his City.

Sporks for those insights. I spent a week in St. Louis recently with not much to do, and I stayed on Delmar Blvd., visiting Forest Park a few times. My impression was that Forest Park is almost a museum piece itself with its golf course, tennis complex history, art museum, and history museums. It sits adjacent to Lindell Ave., a sort of early 20th Century Street of Dreams for the elite, and nearly adjacent to the private Washington University. As a visitor, correctly or incorrectly, I got a feeling that the folks on Lindell Avenue probably didn't wander north of Delmar much. I can easily see important public opposition to playground basketball in Forest Park. People on Lindell Avenue seemed to be people with pull. The people north of Delmar, not so much.

Just as an aside not relevant to this thread, I was saddened by the vestigial racial divide in St. Louis -- stronger and more long-lasting than what I've experienced in other major midwestern cities. Just my impression as a curious visitor of course.

[throatybeard]

Sporks for those insights. I spent a week in St. Louis recently with not much to do, and I stayed on Delmar Blvd., visiting Forest Park a few times. My impression was that Forest Park is almost a museum piece itself with its golf course, tennis complex history, art museum, and history museums. It sits adjacent to Lindell Ave., a sort of early 20th Century Street of Dreams for the elite, and nearly adjacent to the private Washington University. As a visitor, correctly or incorrectly, I got a feeling that the folks on Lindell Avenue probably didn't wander north of Delmar much. I can easily see important public opposition to playground basketball in Forest Park. People on Lindell Avenue seemed to be people with pull. The people north of Delmar, not so much.

Just as an aside not relevant to this thread, I was saddened by the vestigial racial divide in St. Louis -- stronger and more long-lasting than what I've experienced in other major midwestern cities. Just my impression as a curious visitor of course.

All of your observations are 102% bulls-eye. Thumbs up.

Especially with respect to the streets. The major boundary moves to Olive (or maybe Vernon, just south of it--there's a little debate) when you get west of Skinker, into U City. My Mandelbrot comment referenced the "white" South side, which isn't anymore, except where it is.

I'm guessing you stayed at the Moonrise Hotel? The great news is that Joe Edwards' multi-million-dollar development at Eastgate and Delmar is about to open with a grocery, a 24-hour diner, and a lot of other stuff. We're back, baby! Except where we aren't.

I'd put a BB goal up next to my garage, except it was built for horses and it protrudes too far into the alley.

[lotusland]

Freedom Park in Charlotte, smack dab in the middle of Myers Park, has 12 tennis courts, 3 soccer fields, 3 baseball fields and one oval basketball court. That's right oval. No baselines or sidelines. I guess a you can play a regulation game of HORSE there.

In fairness to the powers that be I have found that adolescent males, generally speaking, are knuckleheads. On top of their knuckleheadedness, they are competitive which means, in groups, they attempt to out-knucklehead one another. I say this as a former knucklehead. The average teenage male brain is not fully developed until 25 at the earliest. If your sons aren't knuckleheads and their friends aren't knuckleheads then I'd be willing to bet that their friend's friends are knuckleheads. There is virtually nowhere that groups of teenage males are welcome to hang out unsupervised.

[Henderson]

All of your observations are 102% bulls-eye. Thumbs up.

Especially with respect to the streets. The major boundary moves to Olive (or maybe Vernon, just south of it--there's a little debate) when you get west of Skinker, into U City. My Mandelbrot comment referenced the "white" South side, which isn't anymore, except where it is.

I'm guessing you stayed at the Moonrise Hotel? The great news is that Joe Edwards' multi-million-dollar development at Eastgate and Delmar is about to open with a grocery, a 24-hour diner, and a lot of other stuff. We're back, baby! Except where we aren't.

I'd put a BB goal up next to my garage, except it was built for horses and it protrudes too far into the alley.

Moonrise Hotel. Bingo.

[wavedukefan70s]

I believe almost all youth sports are being organized. To the point of "drying up" the neighborhood pick up game.

[throatybeard]

In fairness to the powers that be I have found that adolescent males, generally speaking, are knuckleheads. On top of their knuckleheadedness, they are competitive which means, in groups, they attempt to out-knucklehead one another. I say this as a former knucklehead. The average teenage male brain is not fully developed until 25 at the earliest. If your sons aren't knuckleheads and their friends aren't knuckleheads then I'd be willing to bet that their friend's friends are knuckleheads. There is virtually nowhere that groups of teenage males are welcome to hang out unsupervised.


Which is exactly why they need healthy outlets for their competitiveness, like a public basketball hoop.

[Richard Berg]

I gave sporks to TB's insights, but still think the headline is awfully misleading. As the article itself explains at length, youth interest in basketball has not waned. Nor did the authors observe the death of the playground per se, but of participation by elite athletes. Nowadays kids with top skills / potential get siphoned off into the AAU and/or prep schools, where competition displaces recreation, despite an uncomfortably short supply of long-term "winners" (see: Hoop Dreams). Even the kids who find success in college & beyond do not return to their open-air roots the way they did a generation ago.

To which I say: big deal. DBR readers know I'm no fan of "amateur" leagues, but I don't see how moving them back outdoors would resolve any of their ethical question marks.

As for the vast majority of us who'd never qualify for AAU tryouts in a million years, the absence of a few elite opponents has little effect on the overall experience. The bleachers may no longer be packed with entourage hoping for a glimpse of the next Kobe (or the real Kobe, for that matter -- though let's not kid ourselves about how rare that was even in its heyday), but that sideshow was never part of the average player's experience to begin with. Most courts don't even have bleachers. You've got hecklers on the baseline, of course, but they really just want next game, caring not a whit for the invisible teammate with few moves and no hops. Ultimately you ball because your buddies wanna ball, because your girl is watching, because you love the game. I don't see that changing.

[sagegrouse]

I gave sporks to TB's insights, but still think the headline is awfully misleading. As the article itself explains at length, youth interest in basketball has not waned. Nor did the authors observe the death of the playground per se, but of participation by elite athletes. Nowadays kids with top skills / potential get siphoned off into the AAU and/or prep schools, where competition displaces recreation, despite an uncomfortably short supply of long-term "winners" (see: Hoop Dreams). Even the kids who find success in college & beyond do not return to their open-air roots the way they did a generation ago.

To which I say: big deal. DBR readers know I'm no fan of "amateur" leagues, but I don't see how moving them back outdoors would resolve any of their ethical question marks.

As for the vast majority of us who'd never qualify for AAU tryouts in a million years, the absence of a few elite opponents has little effect on the overall experience. The bleachers may no longer be packed with entourage hoping for a glimpse of the next Kobe (or the real Kobe, for that matter -- though let's not kid ourselves about how rare that was even in its heyday), but that sideshow was never part of the average player's experience to begin with. Most courts don't even have bleachers. You've got hecklers on the baseline, of course, but they really just want next game, caring not a whit for the invisible teammate with few moves and no hops. Ultimately you ball because your buddies wanna ball, because your girl is watching, because you love the game. I don't see that changing.

Amen, Brother. There was a story here from a few years ago, when Coach K reminisced with his players about his time playing on the playgrounds, "Just like you did."

"Uhhh, Coach," said Chris Collins, "they played in gyms, not on the playground."

[greybeard]

I was on a flight from the West Coast yesterday, sitting next to two trendy white women from LA. They run a pre school Dance" program for the "disadvantaged." They had won some kind of award of meaningful dimension, and were looking to cash in, get meaningful grant money. They were brainstorming a n extravaganza made up of dance scenarios appropriate for various ages, etc. how to put on a program that would "Wow" people--parents, grant- money persons, and other targets.

I asked, why not get the kids involved in developing themes, characters, choreography, with value added help from them. You know, let them learn to fish.

The older of the two, the one clearly in charge with whom I had had a ver nice chat with before, smiled in a way that said it all--"it's about the money, stupid." It is, isn't it? The kids who are playing meaningful AAU ball I doubt have paid for a sneaker in quite sometime.

Seems to me that the biggest loss is the lack of intergenerational connection. There are aspects of the game that are picked up by feel, by watching, listening, getting to play different styles, seeing what makes for effective play by guys whom you only thought had been passed by by a new game you only thought was in all respects better, how to blend, join with four guys in their 30s, they play to your strengths but the style and themes are theirs, those things are missing

No amount of AAU coaching can replace what those outdoor playground experiences would yield. But then again, you'd have only one pair of shoes and would have to pay for them. You also won't get to put on someone else's show, which seems the only way to sell.

Money

[throatybeard]

I was on a flight from the West Coast yesterday, sitting next to two trendy white women from LA. They run a pre school Dance" program for the "disadvantaged." They had won some kind of award of meaningful dimension, and were looking to cash in, get meaningful grant money. They were brainstorming a n extravaganza made up of dance scenarios appropriate for various ages, etc. how to put on a program that would "Wow" people--parents, grant- money persons, and other targets.


I am beginning to doubt their commitment to Sparkle Motion.

[Henderson]

There was a story here from a few years ago, when Coach K reminisced with his players about his time playing on the playgrounds, "Just like you did."

"Uhhh, Coach," said Chris Collins, "they played in gyms, not on the playground."

This seems to me like the answer to the question regarding the decline of playground basketball. Generational shift that doesn't fit well with our sense of nostalgia.

[Richard Berg]

Seems to me that the biggest loss is the lack of intergenerational connection. There are aspects of the game that are picked up by feel, by watching, listening, getting to play different styles, seeing what makes for effective play by guys whom you only thought had been passed by by a new game you only thought was in all respects better, how to blend, join with four guys in their 30s, they play to your strengths but the style and themes are theirs, those things are missing.
Again: so? These concerns only apply to the tiny fraction of youths tapped as future stars. Outdoor playgrounds still see the usual mix of ages. Only the talent distribution has shifted (and there only on the right tail), not the demographics.

Meanwhile, if the AAU/NCAA really want to instill "old man game" in the lucky few playing for crowds and shoes, they can hire us :) I promise to bring a very different (read: slow) style to the next generation.