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sagegrouse
07-15-2014, 06:25 PM
As expected, Carlos Boozer, a 12-year veteran with over 13 thousand points and 7,700 rebounds, has been amnestied (received amnesty?) from the Bulls, who will be responsible for his $16.8 million salary, less what any other team agrees to pay him. According to this rumor mill article (http://www.hoopsrumors.com/2014/07/hornets-likely-boozer.html), the Charlotte Hornets and the Atlanta Hawks are queuing up for his services. why is this not a surprise?

Faison1
07-15-2014, 07:18 PM
Explain to me the whole Amnesty thing.....the Bulls would rather ship him off while paying his salary than keep him on the team?

Was Boozer problematic? Or was he just getting old?

Troublemaker
07-15-2014, 07:29 PM
Explain to me the whole Amnesty thing.....the Bulls would rather ship him off while paying his salary than keep him on the team?

Correct. But that's because when you amnesty a player, he no longer counts against the salary cap even though in real life the team is still paying him. Freeing up salary cap room will allow Chicago to sign Gasol and Mirotic and save on luxury tax costs if they happen to go over the salary cap.



Was Boozer problematic? Or was he just getting old?

He was getting old and ineffective. His teammates and coaches liked him a lot as a person, by all accounts. This move was about diminishing basketball effectiveness relative to salary, not chemistry issues.

pfrduke
07-15-2014, 07:56 PM
As expected, Carlos Boozer, a 12-year veteran with over 13 thousand points and 7,700 rebounds, has been amnestied (received amnesty?) from the Bulls, who will be responsible for his $16.8 million salary, less what any other team agrees to pay him. According to this rumor mill article (http://www.hoopsrumors.com/2014/07/hornets-likely-boozer.html), the Charlotte Hornets and the Atlanta Hawks are queuing up for his services. why is this not a surprise?

He doesn't seem to help either team. Atlanta is trying a full spread offense with 3 point shooters at every position - Boozer doesn't help that and doesn't offer the defensive acumen to make up for it. For Charlotte, pairing Boozer and Jefferson at 4 and 5 clogs the court with no defensive benefit.

Miami could play him next to Bosh/McRoberts. Orlando could take him for pittance - ditto the Lakers. He would be a reliable 18 points for those teams that don't have other options But I'm not sure there's a contender that really has a need for Boozer.

CDu
07-15-2014, 08:10 PM
Correct. But that's because when you amnesty a player, he no longer counts against the salary cap even though in real life the team is still paying him. Freeing up salary cap room will allow Chicago to sign Gasol and Mirotic and save on luxury tax costs if they happen to go over the salary cap.



He was getting old and ineffective. His teammates and coaches liked him a lot as a person, by all accounts. This move was about diminishing basketball effectiveness relative to salary, not chemistry issues.

This is a perfect summary. The Bulls did the amnesty because Gasol+Mirotic is more valuable (heck, Gasol alone is more valuable) than Boozer, and that was the only way to make it happen. The Bulls would have rather traded Boozer for a draft pick or in a sign-and-trade deal for Gasol or Anthony (and they tried). But teams knew the Bulls' goal here and balked at the salary.

Boozer is, by all accounts, a terrific teammate. And I think he'd make a great "bumslayer" as a second-unit PF. But his level of play has been on a steady decline, he was a liability on defense (a no-no with Thibs), and his contract was prohibiting the Bulls from improving.

I could easily see him in Miami (a place where he would be happy). I also think Houston is a terrific fit.

sagegrouse
07-15-2014, 10:24 PM
This is a perfect summary. The Bulls did the amnesty because Gasol+Mirotic is more valuable (heck, Gasol alone is more valuable) than Boozer, and that was the only way to make it happen. The Bulls would have rather traded Boozer for a draft pick or in a sign-and-trade deal for Gasol or Anthony (and they tried). But teams knew the Bulls' goal here and balked at the salary.

Boozer is, by all accounts, a terrific teammate. And I think he'd make a great "bumslayer" as a second-unit PF. But his level of play has been on a steady decline, he was a liability on defense (a no-no with Thibs), and his contract was prohibiting the Bulls from improving.

I could easily see him in Miami (a place where he would be happy). I also think Houston is a terrific fit.

Boozer was 16.6 PPG and 9.8 RPG on 32 minutes in 2013. This year he was 13.7 and 8.3 on 28 minutes per game. Not much decline in productivity for a standard 36 minute game, but the fact that a healthy Boozer got fewer minutes suggested that his overall play was suffering.

theAlaskanBear
07-16-2014, 12:23 AM
Boozer was 16.6 PPG and 9.8 RPG on 32 minutes in 2013. This year he was 13.7 and 8.3 on 28 minutes per game. Not much decline in productivity for a standard 36 minute game, but the fact that a healthy Boozer got fewer minutes suggested that his overall play was suffering.

Boozer has been remarkably consistent over his career. As you have pointed out, even the past couple of years where Boozer is supposedly in decline his numbers and rate statistics and numbers barely budge. However, it is clear to me just from watching him that his athleticism has declined significantly in the last couple of years. I can't prove it to you, but I think his FG% bears this out. He doesn't get to the rim like he used to, and when he does he shoots a lower percentage. Three seasons ago he shot 63% inside of 8 feet, it dropped to 57% and now 53%. His overall FG% dropped from 53% to 48% and now to 46%, the lowest of his career and the only two consecutive years of declining FG% in his career.

But I would suggest that the improvement of Taj Gibson has more to do with Boozers decreasing minutes than a significant Boozer decline. Taj finally played more minutes than Boozer for the first time this year. He jumped 6 minutes per game, most of those came at Boozers expense. Boozer is a better passer and offensive facilitator, but Gibson is a better defender and offensive rebounder.

Troublemaker
07-16-2014, 08:32 AM
Boozer has been remarkably consistent over his career. As you have pointed out, even the past couple of years where Boozer is supposedly in decline his numbers and rate statistics and numbers barely budge. However, it is clear to me just from watching him that his athleticism has declined significantly in the last couple of years. I can't prove it to you, but I think his FG% bears this out. He doesn't get to the rim like he used to, and when he does he shoots a lower percentage. Three seasons ago he shot 63% inside of 8 feet, it dropped to 57% and now 53%. His overall FG% dropped from 53% to 48% and now to 46%, the lowest of his career and the only two consecutive years of declining FG% in his career.

The dip in FG% definitely provides necessary context belying his continued okay-ish counting numbers. And then once you get to the advanced stats, it's a real mess for Carlos.

This past season, he ranked 88th out of 89 PFs in WAR, for example. And 82nd out of 89 in RPM. http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/3/position/6

I think the decline has been drastic, unfortunately.

Henderson
07-16-2014, 09:44 AM
If someone offered me $16.8 million to hang out by the pool all year, I'd consider it.

theAlaskanBear
07-16-2014, 10:03 AM
The dip in FG% definitely provides necessary context belying his continued okay-ish counting numbers. And then once you get to the advanced stats, it's a real mess for Carlos.

This past season, he ranked 88th out of 89 PFs in WAR, for example. And 82nd out of 89 in RPM. http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/3/position/6

I think the decline has been drastic, unfortunately.

I am reading that WAR is based on RPM...can you explain regularized plus minus to me, and then how they derive WAR from that?

JasonEvans
07-16-2014, 10:20 AM
Boozer ain't going to Miami unless all the teams with cap space pass on him. I may be wrong, but it appears the Hawks, Hornets, Rockets, Lakers, Bucks, Magic, Sixers, Suns, and Jazz have cap space at this point and could bid on Boozer. I believe they must put in a bid higher than the veteran minimum. No other team has a shot at him unless all these teams pass on him. So, les look at each one of these clubs and whether or not Boozer makes sense.

The Hawks are kinda loaded at the PF position with Paul Milsap, Mike Scott, and the just-drafted Adrianne Payne (why did you draft a PF?!?!?!?!). Plus, the Hawks seem to have a real defensive focus at the moment. Not sure he fits well for them. But, the team is so devoid of SFs, they may be thinking of playing someone like Payne or Scott at the SF position. Also, the Hawks really need some scoring punch off the bench. I bet Danny Ferry and Carlos are friends and the Hawks are always looking for cap-friendly players. I could see them putting in a bid in an effort to add some offensive firepower to their bench.

The Hornets make sense as they could use Boozer as a stopgap until Vonleh and/or Cody Zeller are ready for big minutes. The consensus seems to be that Zeller and Vonleh are still a couple years away.

The Rockets certainly could use him after missing on Bosh. They signed Trevor Ariza, but he is more of a SF. Plus, Howard's stellar rim protection can make up for some of Boozer's defensive shortcomings.

The Lakers need everything, though PF might be one position where they feel sorta comfortable. They have to be planning on giving Julius Randle big minutes from day one and have a couple decent/cheap backups in Kelly and Jordan Hill.

I heard that the Bucks drafted some kind named Jabari to play PF. They also have promising youngster Giannis Antetokounmpo. I guess they might want to have Boozer tutor those youngsters.

Orlando drafted Gordon at PF and has Tobias Harris, who tore it up for them last season. I dunno why they would want another PF.

The Sixers have Thaddeus Young playing quite nicely at PF for them. They also may want to experiment with the Noel-Embiid twin towers format a bit. Plus, Philly is looking to tank again in 2014-15 with an eye toward becoming really good in 2015-16 (as an aside, their strategy seems like genius to me right now -- I would trade their roster for any roster other than Cleveland in the East. They are going to be really good, like championship contender good, in 2-3 years). I don't see Philly signing him.

The Suns could be a good destination. Channig Frye and Markeiff Morris havn't exactly been world beaters in Phoenix. I think the team's up-and-down style might suit Boozer as it should open him up for jumpshots. Plumlee gives them a rim protector who may be able to cover up some of Carlos' mistakes.

The Jazz could have no one at PF and they still would not bring Carlos back. Lots of bad feelings in that breakup a few years ago, I think. The Jazz do have Derrick Favors at PF already.

I think the Hawks, Hornets, Suns, and Rockets make the most sense.

-Jason "now, watch the Jazz put in the highest offer... shows what I know!" Evans

Li_Duke
07-16-2014, 11:05 AM
Boozer ain't going to Miami unless all the teams with cap space pass on him. I may be wrong, but it appears the Hawks, Hornets, Rockets, Lakers, Bucks, Magic, Sixers, Suns, and Jazz have cap space at this point and could bid on Boozer. I believe they must put in a bid higher than the veteran minimum. No other team has a shot at him unless all these teams pass on him. So, les look at each one of these clubs and whether or not Boozer makes sense.

The Hawks are kinda loaded at the PF position with Paul Milsap, Mike Scott, and the just-drafted Adrianne Payne (why did you draft a PF?!?!?!?!). Plus, the Hawks seem to have a real defensive focus at the moment. Not sure he fits well for them. But, the team is so devoid of SFs, they may be thinking of playing someone like Payne or Scott at the SF position. Also, the Hawks really need some scoring punch off the bench. I bet Danny Ferry and Carlos are friends and the Hawks are always looking for cap-friendly players. I could see them putting in a bid in an effort to add some offensive firepower to their bench.

The Hornets make sense as they could use Boozer as a stopgap until Vonleh and/or Cody Zeller are ready for big minutes. The consensus seems to be that Zeller and Vonleh are still a couple years away.

The Rockets certainly could use him after missing on Bosh. They signed Trevor Ariza, but he is more of a SF. Plus, Howard's stellar rim protection can make up for some of Boozer's defensive shortcomings.

The Lakers need everything, though PF might be one position where they feel sorta comfortable. They have to be planning on giving Julius Randle big minutes from day one and have a couple decent/cheap backups in Kelly and Jordan Hill.

I heard that the Bucks drafted some kind named Jabari to play PF. They also have promising youngster Giannis Antetokounmpo. I guess they might want to have Boozer tutor those youngsters.

Orlando drafted Gordon at PF and has Tobias Harris, who tore it up for them last season. I dunno why they would want another PF.

The Sixers have Thaddeus Young playing quite nicely at PF for them. They also may want to experiment with the Noel-Embiid twin towers format a bit. Plus, Philly is looking to tank again in 2014-15 with an eye toward becoming really good in 2015-16 (as an aside, their strategy seems like genius to me right now -- I would trade their roster for any roster other than Cleveland in the East. They are going to be really good, like championship contender good, in 2-3 years). I don't see Philly signing him.

The Suns could be a good destination. Channig Frye and Markeiff Morris havn't exactly been world beaters in Phoenix. I think the team's up-and-down style might suit Boozer as it should open him up for jumpshots. Plumlee gives them a rim protector who may be able to cover up some of Carlos' mistakes.

The Jazz could have no one at PF and they still would not bring Carlos back. Lots of bad feelings in that breakup a few years ago, I think. The Jazz do have Derrick Favors at PF already.

I think the Hawks, Hornets, Suns, and Rockets make the most sense.

-Jason "now, watch the Jazz put in the highest offer... shows what I know!" Evans

Very good analysis; I wanted to add my thoughts to yours.

Sixers - Embiid is injured and may not play all year. Noel is a rookie. Neither Noel nor Young are much of a post presence, and they don't have much depth in the front court. I could see them bidding on Boozer (won't hurt their ability to tank too much), making him the focal point of the offense so he puts up good numbers, then flipping him to a playoff team for picks (he'll be especially easy to trade if the winning bid is small).

Suns - Channing Fyre is now with Orlando. Boozer does give them a post scorer (something they currently lack). I'm skeptical how much run and gun he'll be capable of at his age.

FerryFor50
07-16-2014, 11:08 AM
Very good analysis; I wanted to add my thoughts to yours.

Sixers - Embiid is injured and may not play all year. Noel is a rookie. Neither Noel nor Young are much of a post presence, and they don't have much depth in the front court. I could see them bidding on Boozer (won't hurt their ability to tank too much), making him the focal point of the offense so he puts up good numbers, then flipping him to a playoff team for picks (he'll be especially easy to trade if the winning bid is small).

Suns - Channing Fyre is now with Orlando. Boozer does give them a post scorer (something they currently lack). I'm skeptical how much run and gun he'll be capable of at his age.

Hard to see the Sixers spending any money on a veteran to improve their team, since they still seem content with tanking until all their pieces are healthy.

sagegrouse
07-16-2014, 11:09 AM
Very good analysis; I wanted to add my thoughts to yours.

Sixers - Embiid is injured and may not play all year. Noel is a rookie. Neither Noel nor Young are much of a post presence, and they don't have much depth in the front court. I could see them bidding on Boozer (won't hurt their ability to tank too much), making him the focal point of the offense so he puts up good numbers, then flipping him to a playoff team for picks (he'll be especially easy to trade if the winning bid is small).

Suns - Channing Fyre is now with Orlando. Boozer does give them a post scorer (something they currently lack). I'm skeptical how much run and gun he'll be capable of at his age.

Boozer is still fairly young -- 32 YO. He entered Duke at age 17, although looking 30. The question IMHO (where the H is silent) is wear-and-tear, not age.

CDu
07-16-2014, 03:42 PM
Boozer does give them a post scorer (something they currently lack). I'm skeptical how much run and gun he'll be capable of at his age.

Boozer isn't really a low-post scorer anymore. He's a pick-and-pop guy from 15 feet now, and not a very efficient one.

The Bulls signed Boozer 4 years ago to theoretically give them a low-post scorer. They quickly found out that post scoring is no longer a part of his game (at least not as a starter; maybe he could do it against backups).

And he's definitely not a run-and-gun player at this point. Injuries and bulk have taken what little explosiveness he had away. He's essentially a plodding, under-the-rim guy now.

Troublemaker
07-16-2014, 03:45 PM
I am reading that WAR is based on RPM...can you explain regularized plus minus to me, and then how they derive WAR from that?

I certainly can't explain RPM better than ESPN's own explanation here: http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10740818/introducing-real-plus-minus

JasonEvans
07-16-2014, 04:14 PM
We should find out fairly soon which team gets him. Bids were due to the NBA's office at 5pm ET today. The word on the street is that the Hawks, Hornets, and Rockets appeared to be the most interested in 'Los.

-Jason "Houston feels like a really good fit" Evans

Troublemaker
07-16-2014, 04:24 PM
-Jason "Houston feels like a really good fit" Evans

Rooting for that. Playing as a 3rd big behind Howard and TJones on a contender is a good spot to be in at this point in his career.

Carlos and Dwight are actually very close friends.

JasonEvans
07-17-2014, 10:06 AM
We should find out fairly soon which team gets him. Bids were due to the NBA's office at 5pm ET today. The word on the street is that the Hawks, Hornets, and Rockets appeared to be the most interested in 'Los.

-Jason "Houston feels like a really good fit" Evans

Apparently, I don't know diddly about the NBA's pace of making stuff public. The bids are in, I think, but no announcement has been made about which team won the right's to 'Los services. Word is that Charlotte took a pass on him. The Hawks and Rockets seem to be the most likely destinations, according to the people paid to make wide guesses about what NBA GMs are thinking. Carlos apparently has said he would like to go to Miami or Houston (is he unaware that Miami cannot bid on him?).

If the Hawks get Boozer, that would mean that 5 of the top 7 players on the roster would be natural Power Forwards. Horford, Milsap, Boozer, Mike Scott, Adreian Payne and then Teague and Korver. Sigh...

-Jason "I would imagine we would find out Boozer's new home in the next 24 hours or so" Evans

arnie
07-17-2014, 11:21 AM
Apparently, I don't know diddly about the NBA's pace of making stuff public. The bids are in, I think, but no announcement has been made about which team won the right's to 'Los services. Word is that Charlotte took a pass on him. The Hawks and Rockets seem to be the most likely destinations, according to the people paid to make wide guesses about what NBA GMs are thinking. Carlos apparently has said he would like to go to Miami or Houston (is he unaware that Miami cannot bid on him?).

If the Hawks get Boozer, that would mean that 5 of the top 7 players on the roster would be natural Power Forwards. Horford, Milsap, Boozer, Mike Scott, Adreian Payne and then Teague and Korver. Sigh...

-Jason "I would imagine we would find out Boozer's new home in the next 24 hours or so" Evans

I get that Elton is no longer a Hawk. Retired or will someone pick him up?

theAlaskanBear
07-17-2014, 01:13 PM
I certainly can't explain RPM better than ESPN's own explanation here: http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10740818/introducing-real-plus-minus

ESPN doesn't really explain the the stat though:


Drawing on advanced statistical modeling techniques (and the analytical wizardry of RPM developer Jeremias Engelmann, formerly of the Phoenix Suns), the metric isolates the unique plus-minus impact of each NBA player by adjusting for the effects of each teammate and opposing player.

"Advanced modeling, analytical wizardry!" Aka word fluff. Aka we don't actually include any useful information in this description.

The basis for this stat is the Adjusted Plus Minus (APM), specifically the xRAPM version by Engelman. These models claim to be able to adjust +/- to tease out each individual's players contribution to the + or - five man lineup by using regressions and other variables. Engelmans xRAPM doesn't just use +/- but also uses box score data and other variables (such as player height) to make it a better predictor.

APM is pretty well explained on 82 games and I will link a couple of informative articles. Just beware that these models are extremely noisy statistically, and require multiple years of data to be useful.

http://www.82games.com/ilardi2.htm


As noted above, adjusted plus-minus ratings – as mathematical estimates – tend to be noisy. For example, Ilardi’s 2006-2007 ratings had a typical standard error of about 3.0, which implies a margin of error for each player estimate (at a 95% confidence level) of roughly +/- 5.9 points [3]. Obviously, the presence of so much noise greatly limits the usefulness of the metric. To take a telling example: Chris Paul had a 2006-2007 rating of + 4.1 pts (per 40 minutes), with a margin of error of roughly +/- 5.9; so, we can only say with 95% confidence that his performance was somewhere between that of a sub-mediocre player (-1.8) and one of the top players in the league (+10.0)!

But where does the noise come from, and how can it be eliminated? Mostly, it results from the fact that teams tend to put the same players on the court together at the same time. That is, many players’ minutes are strongly inter-correlated, so the underlying adjusted plus-minus model has a hard time disentangling individual player effects at a high level of accuracy. In addition, the number of unique observations (i.e., lineups) of a given player in a single season is surprisingly small [4], typically under 1,000.

However, there exists a straightforward solution to both of these problems: use multiple seasons’ worth of data. How many seasons of data are needed? As many as possible. With only one season, the standard errors are very high – typically around 5.0 points per 100 possessions (with corresponding margins of error of roughly +/- 10.0 points). Such ratings, of course, are highly suspect. With two seasons of data, the noise level drops by about 40%, but it’s still uncomfortably high. The picture, however, gets appreciably clearer with each additional season that’s added to the model.


I love sports stats, and the quest for better statistics. But statistics are just descriptions of events, not reality themselves. The more derivative and and layered they get, the more likely the description obscures reality. Leaving aside questions of accuracy for a moment, I would caution that the adjusted +/- is irrelevant, because they are seeking to unduly isolate the individual in a team game. Basketball isn't baseball -- 1v1, a collection of largely individual plays. It's about the relationship of players on the court, and how their interaction produces and prevents baskets. There are far more tangible ways to describe players and predict the relationships they will on the court with other players. Telling me Kawhi Leonard has a 2.66 RPM means almost nothing to me. Supposedly, it tells me that Leonard was estimated to be responsible for 2.66 points of his team's net margin over 100 possessions. But if you stick him into a different lineup, his contribution is going to change and this stat does not tell you how. It doesn't give me a general impression of his shooting ability, nor his rebounding, nor his defense, nor his passing. Is he a catch and shoot or does he shoot off the dribble. Is he a good help defender or individual defender, etc etc?

Philosophical objections aside, there are some problems with the resulting rankings have have me questioning the accuracy. Lets take a look at defense for a second. Specifically small forwards. Kawhi has the 10th DRPM, behind such defensive luminaries at Mike Dunleavy Jr (sorry mike!). Paul Pierce the third best DRPM, above Paul George, just behind Iguodala and Green? What about LeBron, down at 30? I am open to the suggestion that LeBrons defense may have been over rated this year, but 30th? Are you really trying to convince me that Hedo Turkoglu and James Jones are better defenders than LeBron? Chandler Parsons and Robbie Hummel?

What about offensively? Top 3 SFs...LeBron, KD, Melo. Looks about right. Then Brewer, Novak, Webster, Matt Barnes. Now I am confused. Kawhi? Down at 18. Kawhi scores more, has vastly better shooting percentages than Barnes, makes more free throws, and has the same number of assists...but Matt Barnes is #7, and Kawhi is #18.

Well maybe if you combine the two stats together you might get a more accurate measure? It's nice to know that Deng, George, Anthony, and Leonard all provided less to their team than Dunleavy (again, sorry Mike).

Maybe these stats are more useful when evaluating players on the same team, but I don't see how it is an appropriate way to compare players across the league.

theAlaskanBear
07-17-2014, 01:49 PM
Also, since this the RPM was brought up in the context of Boozer:

I think most would agree that Boozer's reputation is a decent offensive player, but a poor defender. Well the ORPM and the DRPM make the exact opposite case. Boozer is -0.03 DRPM (or league average, which is 0) while his ORPM is -4.12, meaning there are only 5 worse offensive power forwards in the entire league, and he places at 415th in the entire league. Behind guys like Kent Bazemore, who scored 6ppg on 43% from the field, behind guys like DJ White, who played in two games and 10 minutes for the entire season, and didn't score a SINGLE point. Just ahead of Meyers Leonard who averaged 2.5 points per game on 45% shooting.

Am I the only one who thinks this is crazy? Would Thib really play Boozer ANY minutes at all if he remotely resembled the player shown in these stats?

Troublemaker
07-17-2014, 01:50 PM
AlaskanBear,

Fair enough on RPM. However, Carlos ranked low on other commonly used advanced stats as well. I was too lazy to link them in my original post but will do so now.

In PER, Carlos ranked 39th among NBA PFs: (Insider link) http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pf

In Win Shares, Carlos ranked 143rd among all NBA players: http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014_advanced.html

I agree that stats have limitations and personal subjective observations should count, too. In my case, personal subjective observations of how Boozer played this season matched what these advanced stats were saying. I think he's declined well below the level that he's being paid.

CDu
07-17-2014, 01:51 PM
Maybe these stats are more useful when evaluating players on the same team, but I don't see how it is an appropriate way to compare players across the league.

Yeah, I think I agree. As a Bulls fan, the easiest barometer is to compare Boozer with Gibson (his backup). Gibson is a MUCH better defender and has developed into a better offensive player, too. Bur Boozer and Gibson play very little together. So I don't know that there is a good way to tease out the issues of plus/minus when nearly all of Boozer's off-court time involves Gibson at PF, and most of Gibson's off-court time involves Boozer at PF.

I'm not saying that the general idea is wrong. Anyone who has watched the Bulls is aware that Boozer is bad defensively, and can tell by the shots he gets (mostly 15 foot jumpers) that he is no longer an effective offensive player. But I'm thinking that even fancy adaptations of +/- still aren't really useful for cross-team comparisons.

CDu
07-17-2014, 02:13 PM
We should find out fairly soon which team gets him. Bids were due to the NBA's office at 5pm ET today. The word on the street is that the Hawks, Hornets, and Rockets appeared to be the most interested in 'Los.

-Jason "Houston feels like a really good fit" Evans

I was under the impression that there was a 48-hour period for teams to make bids, no? If Boozer was amnestied on Tuesday (as was reported) then teams would have until today to bid. So we'd find out tonight or tomorrow, right?

Duvall
07-17-2014, 04:07 PM
Lakers.

mr. synellinden
07-17-2014, 04:22 PM
Lakers.

LINKY (http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/11229606/carlos-boozer-join-los-angeles-lakers)

Dev11
07-17-2014, 04:46 PM
Lakers.

Make that now 4 former Duke players on teams massively overpaying former stars: McRoberts and Deng in Miami and Boozer and Kelly in LA. What a shame

FerryFor50
07-17-2014, 04:48 PM
LINKY (http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/11229606/carlos-boozer-join-los-angeles-lakers)

Guess you can never have too many power forwards...

Boozer
Jordan Hill
Julius Randle
Ed Davis
Ryan Kelly

Duvall
07-17-2014, 04:51 PM
Make that now 4 former Duke players on teams massively overpaying former stars: McRoberts and Deng in Miami and Boozer and Kelly in LA. What a shame

And Mason. Remains to be seen whether Dunleavy belongs on this list as well, I guess.

mr. synellinden
07-17-2014, 05:58 PM
Guess you can never have too many power forwards...

Boozer
Jordan Hill
Julius Randle
Ed Davis
Ryan Kelly

I was shocked when I learned how much money Jordan Hill makes. I think it's 9M per year - and he's never averaged in double digits.

FerryFor50
07-17-2014, 06:45 PM
I was shocked when I learned how much money Jordan Hill makes. I think it's 9M per year - and he's never averaged in double digits.

Yea, it's ridiculous. I mean, was there REALLY that much of a market for his services?

He now makes as much as Anderson Varejao...

theschwartz
07-17-2014, 07:19 PM
Yea, it's ridiculous. I mean, was there REALLY that much of a market for his services?

He now makes as much as Anderson Varejao...

I'm sure the Lakers were not expecting to get Boozer in the first place. Otherwise, there's no way they would have given Jordan Hill that much money. Same with Davis, although his deal is pretty light. Even without Boozer, the Hill signing was highly questionable but that's been the theme for the Lakers the last couple years, starting with not re-hiring Phil Jackson, continuing with Kobe's "gift" extension, and culminating with most of their off-season moves (except for drafting Randle and acquiring Lin - I actually like those moves a lot). Hate to say it, but I'm not a fan of the Lakers getting Boozer--even if they're only paying $3.25MM of his salary--since that potentially takes away playing time from Randle and Kelly. I'd rather see those guys get a lot of PT on a bad team and turn into good, if not great, players. Ideally, Boozer will be a great locker room guy who the younger guys can learn from and who either rediscovers his form from 3-4 years ago or is ok being a role player and mentor off the bench.

FerryFor50
07-17-2014, 07:37 PM
I'm sure the Lakers were not expecting to get Boozer in the first place. Otherwise, there's no way they would have given Jordan Hill that much money. Same with Davis, although his deal is pretty light. Even without Boozer, the Hill signing was highly questionable but that's been the theme for the Lakers the last couple years, starting with not re-hiring Phil Jackson, continuing with Kobe's "gift" extension, and culminating with most of their off-season moves (except for drafting Randle and acquiring Lin - I actually like those moves a lot). Hate to say it, but I'm not a fan of the Lakers getting Boozer--even if they're only paying $3.25MM of his salary--since that potentially takes away playing time from Randle and Kelly. I'd rather see those guys get a lot of PT on a bad team and turn into good, if not great, players. Ideally, Boozer will be a great locker room guy who the younger guys can learn from and who either rediscovers his form from 3-4 years ago or is ok being a role player and mentor off the bench.

Yea, signing Boozer to a team going nowhere is just not smart at all. Boozer would fit on a playoff bound team where he doesn't need major minutes and can play against 2nd team guys. On the Lakers, he's likely a starter and plays major minutes. He might produce, but not enough to get the Lakers over the hump. In fact, it could hinder their chances at getting a high lottery pick next season, after they inevitably miss the playoffs.

I'm guessing they don't want to waste what's left of Kobe's career and at least TRY to emerge from the West with a playoff spot. But that's a tall order, I think...

Des Esseintes
07-17-2014, 10:19 PM
I was shocked when I learned how much money Jordan Hill makes. I think it's 9M per year - and he's never averaged in double digits.

I'm sorry for Ryan, but my gawd, do I love watching the Lakers make bad decisions. Hill at $9M. Nick Young signed to a four-year contract at age 29. Kobe's extension. It's beautiful. The impossible may actually come to pass and LA stays mediocre for the forseeable future. How glorious would that be?

awhom111
07-17-2014, 11:56 PM
I'm sorry for Ryan, but my gawd, do I love watching the Lakers make bad decisions. Hill at $9M. Nick Young signed to a four-year contract at age 29. Kobe's extension. It's beautiful. The impossible may actually come to pass and LA stays mediocre for the forseeable future. How glorious would that be?

If I am Ryan, I am getting my agent working double time on finding a team willing to extend an offer sheet even for not that much money. In fact, I would not be surprised if the Lakers rescind their qualifying offer soon.

UrinalCake
07-18-2014, 07:10 AM
So the Bulls and Lakers essentially traded Boozer for Gasol?

CDu
07-18-2014, 07:51 AM
So the Bulls and Lakers essentially traded Boozer for Gasol?

From the Bulls' perspective, it was Boozer for Gasol plus the cap space to sign Mirotic and stay under the tax. Well, that and the Bulls are still paying Boozer $13.6 million of his $16.8 million.

BD80
07-18-2014, 08:27 AM
So the Bulls and Lakers essentially traded Boozer for Gasol?

With da Bulls tossing in about $13 mil toward Los' salary.

The Lakers will take a break from paying the repeater tax for being over the salary cap, will the Bulls pay the repeater tax by adding Gasol?

FerryFor50
07-18-2014, 08:34 AM
With da Bulls tossing in about $13 mil toward Los' salary.

The Lakers will take a break from paying the repeater tax for being over the salary cap, will the Bulls pay the repeater tax by adding Gasol?

I don't think the Bulls will have to pay the tax. Amnesty allows the Bulls to wipe Carlos Boozer's salary from their cap, even though they are still on the hook to pay it.

CDu
07-18-2014, 08:37 AM
With da Bulls tossing in about $13 mil toward Los' salary.

The Lakers will take a break from paying the repeater tax for being over the salary cap, will the Bulls pay the repeater tax by adding Gasol?

Nope. The Bulls are actually just barely over the cap now. That was the point of amnestying Boozer: it clears his salary off the books so they can get far enough under the cap to sign Gasol and Mirotic. They are over $10 million shy of the luxury tax line this year. They are paying Boozer, but it doesn't count against the cap.