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dukelion
06-30-2014, 03:43 PM
http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/06/30/ncaa-to-reopen-academic-fraud-investigation-at-north-carolina/

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
06-30-2014, 04:14 PM
On ESPN too. http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/11157920/ncaa-reopens-investigation-academic-scandal-north-carolina

Do we start a new thread? It's so hard to tell where one scandal ends and the next begins.

JasonEvans
06-30-2014, 04:51 PM
There has been some pretty intense media pressure on the NCAA to do something more than the nothing that was done first time around. Certainly, since they slapped the football program on the wrist with a wet noodle, there has been a good bit more information put out there.

Will the NCAA dare to poke the beast that is the Carolina basketball program? Could they possibly strip them of the national title earned with the help of a player who clearly should not have been eligible to play? I seriously doubt it, but it seems hard to imagine the NCAA won't pop Carolina in some additional way after officially reopening the investigation. I mean, can you imagine the outcry and columns if the NCAA were to come back now and say, "We looked and there was nothing wrong done here." USC would have a freaking cow if that happened!

-Jason "I wonder how much of this comes from McCants and how much comes from the Wainstein investigation -- Carolina's administration has got to be nervous right now!" Evans

Duvall
06-30-2014, 04:55 PM
There has been some pretty intense media pressure on the NCAA to do something more than the nothing that was done first time around. Certainly, since they slapped the football program on the wrist with a wet noodle, there has been a good bit more information put out there.

Will the NCAA dare to poke the beast that is the Carolina basketball program? Could they possibly strip them of the national title earned with the help of a player who clearly should not have been eligible to play? I seriously doubt it, but it seems hard to imagine the NCAA won't pop Carolina in some additional way after officially reopening the investigation. I mean, can you imagine the outcry and columns if the NCAA were to come back now and say, "We looked and there was nothing wrong done here." USC would have a freaking cow if that happened!

-Jason "I wonder how much of this comes from McCants and how much comes from the Wainstein investigation -- Carolina's administration has got to be nervous right now!" Evans

I mean, it depends. If a future federal judge comes out and says there's no new significant evidence of wrongdoing by the UNC athletics department, I'm not sure what would happen after that.

weezie
06-30-2014, 05:08 PM
Do we start a new thread? It's so hard to tell where one scandal ends and the next begins.


Oh yes, yes, yes, yes!!!! New thread, let's get busy! This is some swell news heading into a nice humid mid-Atlantic week! :D

SoCalDukeFan
06-30-2014, 05:10 PM
that the NCAA has figured out that they can not claim that a scholarship is fair exchange for participating in athletics unless the scholarship has some educational value.

Media pressure and PR forced this.

Of course, had the NCAA acted responsibly in the past no need to reopen as the Heels would have been slammed years ago.

SoCal

hudlow
06-30-2014, 05:13 PM
I think the NCAA guys just want to come out here and play some golf...

Bob Green
06-30-2014, 05:14 PM
The story that will not end. This probably ruined Coach Roy's golf game today. My money is still on nothing new happening to Carolina. The NCAA will reconfirm their earlier decisions.

uh_no
06-30-2014, 05:27 PM
this just in:

UNC athletics administrators are trying to escape chapel hill by any means!


Brenda Cruz and her family were flabbergasted by what they spotted as they were driving on Interstate 77 in North Carolina this weekend:
A man was hanging on to the back of a fast-moving white sedan in the right-hand lane.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/30/us/north-carolina-man-on-car/

Henderson
06-30-2014, 05:30 PM
What a shame for UNC-CH. I only hope that the NCAA takes a nice long time to examine things thoroughly. We wouldn't want them to make any hasty judgments. You know, the kind that would end this nightmare quickly.

I love the sound of slowly dripping water. The sound of stature torturously draining away...

ancienteagle
06-30-2014, 05:33 PM
Oh yes, yes, yes, yes!!!! New thread, let's get busy! This is some swell news heading into a nice humid mid-Atlantic week!




Hark! The sound of Tar Heel voices,
Ringing clear and true,
The N C Double A is coming,
Sure sucks being you!

Jarhead
06-30-2014, 05:34 PM
The story that will not end. This probably ruined Coach Roy's golf game today. My money is still on nothing new happening to Carolina. The NCAA will reconfirm their earlier decisions.

I don't think so, Bob. The NCAA has taken some powerful punches over this, and I think they can't afford to take any more. It's pretty clear that there will be something more done. A mea culpa may be in the works, and the NCAA would then be forced to take some serious action. The fourth estate including The News and Observer backed up by Pack Pride will see to that. Of course, I am disappointed that the college presidents have had virtually nothing to say about this. Aren't they the ones to whom the NCAA must answer?

BD80
06-30-2014, 05:37 PM
I think the NCAA guys just want to come out here and play some golf...

And thus the timing, Pinehurst has been a bit crowded the last couple of weeks, tough to get multiple tee times.

How can the NCAA now conduct an investigation and find nothing?

hurleyfor3
06-30-2014, 05:40 PM
Do we start a new thread? It's so hard to tell where one scandal ends and the next begins.

Yes, this one. It's Scandal 2.0 now.

blueduke59
06-30-2014, 05:46 PM
Curious that NCAA waited until now to want to take a second look. Hard for them to not ignore the heat by media along with a lawsuit they're going to lose for them to get a small (VERY small) dose of religion. IMO they'll find "minor" violations. They knew what UNC was doing years ago. This is just a "Look at us! We're relevant and we're on this!" play. They'll find minor violations and hope Roy doesn't get mad.

roywhite
06-30-2014, 05:48 PM
Things worked so much better for the light blue when Phil Ford could play keep-away and run the clock down.

blueduke59
06-30-2014, 05:50 PM
Things worked so much better for the light blue when Phil Ford could play keep-away and run the clock down.

That's what they've been doing. Sadly for UNC Ford isn't the qb in the four corners this time

OldPhiKap
06-30-2014, 06:17 PM
The story that will not end. This probably ruined Coach Roy's golf game today. My money is still on nothing new happening to Carolina. The NCAA will reconfirm their earlier decisions.

I guess Roy's not in the daggum tee time spirit.

moonpie23
06-30-2014, 06:23 PM
the ncaa can look at the transcripts,yes?

they can interview players and have the proof right there in front of them when they do…..remember, whatever you do, don't LIE to them….

OldPhiKap
06-30-2014, 06:38 PM
the ncaa can look at the transcripts,yes?

they can interview players and have the proof right there in front of them when they do…..remember, whatever you do, don't LIE to them….

Roy basically called McCants a liar. Time to see who is right.

BTW -- watching post-match World Cup on ESPN, the scroll was all about UNC and fraud. Heh.

Henderson
06-30-2014, 06:42 PM
Meanwhile, over at Inside Carolina, folks seem mostly to be taking this news like adults (or adults with an astigmatism anyway). Examples:

"I really don't want to overreact, but I feel like this will be the beginning of the end for Roy. Not because he's done anything wrong, but because he's got to be tired of dealing with crap beyond his control year in and year out. Recruiting is going to suffer until the dust settles on this, and that's his greatest strength as a coach.
I don't imagine he'll leave any of the current kids he recruited high and dry, but if he has problems getting guys for 2015 and 2016 because of this, I can see him starting to tell people he may not be here for the full 4 years."

"They want to talk to Nyang'oro it would seem."

"...and Crowder. The University will regret hanging the two of them out to dry."

Of course there's also the crowd saying it's unfair because the NCAA already investigated:

"the university was already punished and already serve their punishment and could have moved on. why they decided to hire more investigators to dig up more dirt is just beyond comprehension. if the university would have just let it go after our punishment they would have been beyond this already."

And those who blame the N&O and Pack Pride:

"It will not bring closure. If they say we're guilty and punish us, Kane and the rest of the State scum will say it's not enough. If they impose no penalties, the same crew will claim it's a whitewash. Until State gets slammed or UNC's athletic program is eliminated, they won't shut up."

Duvall
06-30-2014, 06:43 PM
Curious that NCAA waited until now to want to take a second look. Hard for them to not ignore the heat by media along with a lawsuit they're going to lose for them to get a small (VERY small) dose of religion. IMO they'll find "minor" violations. They knew what UNC was doing years ago. This is just a "Look at us! We're relevant and we're on this!" play. They'll find minor violations and hope Roy doesn't get mad.

The conspiracy angle definitely makes more sense than the simpler explanation that Nyang'oro declined to talk to the NCAA before and is talking to the UNC investigators now.

CameronBornAndBred
06-30-2014, 06:44 PM
Ok...so IF the NCAA (finally) finds any wrongdoing this time, do they tack on punishments for UNC lying to them? Because if they do find fault, then they have to say the Heels lied the first time around. Which outta increase any punishments. (Wishful thinking, I know, but still...)

CameronBornAndBred
06-30-2014, 06:48 PM
I don't imagine he'll leave any of the current kids he recruited high and dry, but if he has problems getting guys for 2015 and 2016 because of this, I can see him starting to tell people he may not be here for the full 4 years."

Of course he won't. It's only high and dry on top of the bus; they'll be underneath it where it is wet and dark.

ncexnyc
06-30-2014, 06:59 PM
Talk about a dysfunctional fan base. I went over to Pack Pride after seeing this thread and thought I would see today being declared a national holiday. That was far from the truth. I’ve never seen such a beaten group of individuals in my life. All I saw was,” This is all a scam, nothing is going to happen,” etc., etc.

For a group that has kept this story in the news and has done so much to expose the lies and cheating that have been going on over at UNC, this was very disappointing. You’d think they would be celebrating the fruits of their labor.

Henderson
06-30-2014, 07:03 PM
the ncaa can look at the transcripts,yes?


I think so. Not as a matter of law, but because the NCAA requires student-athletes to waive their FERPA rights to give the NCAA access.

This is a secondary source. A paragraph from a 2009 article in the journal, Inside Higher Ed. I don't have a link to the FERPA waiver the NCAA requires, but this sounds right and is the working assumption of university counsel generally:

"The NCAA requires student athletes to fill out a consent form, saying the students agree to disclose educational records to the association that are covered by FERPA." Here's the full article (http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/06/26/right-remain-silent#sthash.s37zQaDD.1WRq2DWF.dpbs) if you want it. There's some interesting stuff about redisclosure by the NCAA to media.

howardlander
06-30-2014, 07:04 PM
Meanwhile, over at Inside Carolina, folks seem mostly to be taking this news like adults (or adults with an astigmatism anyway). Examples:

"I really don't want to overreact, but I feel like this will be the beginning of the end for Roy. Not because he's done anything wrong, but because he's got to be tired of dealing with crap beyond his control year in and year out. Recruiting is going to suffer until the dust settles on this, and that's his greatest strength as a coach.



I agree with this guy. Can you imagine any parent with any real interest in his child's academic progress, or in having their child not play for a school on probation, sending a kid to play for Roy now? Most (all?) of the kids Carolina recruits have got plenty of options. Why bet your future on damaged goods?

Howard

OldPhiKap
06-30-2014, 07:06 PM
Talk about a dysfunctional fan base. I went over to Pack Pride after seeing this thread and thought I would see today being declared a national holiday. That was far from the truth. I’ve never seen such a beaten group of individuals in my life. All I saw was,” This is all a scam, nothing is going to happen,” etc., etc.

For a group that has kept this story in the news and has done so much to expose the lies and cheating that have been going on over at UNC, this was very disappointing. You’d think they would be celebrating the fruits of their labor.

FWIW I share their pessimism that this will amount to much. But I am willing to be proven wrong.

Henderson
06-30-2014, 07:17 PM
FWIW I share their pessimism that this will amount to much. But I am willing to be proven wrong.

I actually disagree. I think there will be some consequences in the end, if only because of the stink if there are none. I've said before that I think the most likely outcome is that Roy is pushed under the bus. Gracefully. Retiring with full honors. But with the tread marks.

But perhaps more importantly, there already are consequences. The mere fact of this ongoing news item and NCAA investigation has its own consequences. Ask Bubba how his blood pressure is today, and you'll see what I mean.

P.S. Others will be blamed too, but they will be beyond UNC's reach, either because they have tenure or are no longer there anyway.

pamtar
06-30-2014, 09:04 PM
From reddit:


According to this 2011 ESPN (http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/6873380/ncaa-told-miami-look-four-years) Article regarding the issue of 'statute of limitations':

The NCAA's four-year statute of limitations doesn't apply when there is a pattern of willful violations that continues into the past four years.

Can someone with a better grip on the investigation(s) timeline please explain how this would apply to UNC? Does it mean if they 'fixed' the problem more than four years ago that they can't be punished?

FerryFor50
06-30-2014, 09:41 PM
So if UNC gets busted for this, do they finally start calling NCSU their rivals? If helping reveal a pattern of cheating isn't a rivalry starter, then what is?

Newton_14
06-30-2014, 09:49 PM
I guess Roy's not in the daggum tee time spirit.

Actually given the timing, Ol Roy is not in the dadgum 4th of July/Independence Day spirit.

I actually think it may be time to start the Roy Williams Retirement Vigil thread. Forget him getting fired... I don't believe he is mentally tough enough to survive an actual investigation into the hoops program. I assume what the good AFAM Professor had to say was so juicy it became too good to pass up. (Or too bad if you rather)

ncexnyc
06-30-2014, 10:05 PM
Ol' Roy can always go hangout at Masonboro this weekend and shotgun a few beers with his good buddy P.J. if he is feeling down.:p

CameronBlue
06-30-2014, 10:08 PM
Ol' Roy can always go hangout at Masonboro this weekend and shotgun a few beers with his good buddy P.J. if he is feeling down.:p

If nothing else I hope Roy has learned that P.J. and weaponry are a bad mix.

Reilly
06-30-2014, 10:19 PM
Roy doesn't shotgun beers ... he BB guns them ... and Roy's *always* in the butt-shooting dadgum spirit, dadgummit ...

moonpie23
06-30-2014, 10:31 PM
well, we all said that the ncaa should re-open an investigation,


unfortunately…... (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152949565322586&set=vb.709227585&type=2&theater)

ncexnyc
06-30-2014, 10:40 PM
I'd love to see someone with Photo Shop skills get an old photo of Laurel and Hardy, one where Hardy is berating Laurel and is saying, "Well here's another nice mess you've gotten us into." Put McCants' face on Laurel's body and put Ol' Roy's face on Hardy's body.

roywhite
06-30-2014, 10:57 PM
Interview with Asheville radio station (http://www.wwnc.com/articles/local-news-122546/audio-whistleblower-on-ncaas-unc-investigation-12518475)

From the link, which also contains an audio:


She said she doesn't think an investigation should be that lengthy. She says it would only take a couple of days to pull the transcripts of players to see how many of them took the so-called paper classes run out of the African-American Studies program. She says everyone who runs college sports, or even enjoys them, is to blame for creating a culture of cheating. She says all faculty, including herself, are also to blame for allowing this to happen. Willingham says white administrators, mostly men, with the NCAA and UNC Chapel Hill have made money off the backs of black athletes and denied them a proper education. She also told WWNC that we may see legal action from her this week against the school for creating a hostile work environment after she told the truth publicly.

SilkyJ
07-01-2014, 12:01 AM
the ncaa can look at the transcripts,yes?

they can interview players and have the proof right there in front of them when they do…..remember, whatever you do, don't LIE to them….

I think so. Not as a matter of law, but because the NCAA requires student-athletes to waive their FERPA rights to give the NCAA access.


Yes they can look at transcripts, but what are they gonna find--that some basketball players took phony classes? Don't we already know that? They know a bunch of athletes and a bunch of regular students took them, and b/c it was so broad they've decided to call it an academic issue and not their domain, right? (Sorry, its been so long I actually forget exactly what they said...). So I'm just not sure what else we know just b/c McCants released his transcript. Frankly, I'd be surprised if they didn't ask for it the last time they were on campus.

I'm with Bob and OPK until the NCAA shows they have a spine or until some truly new evidence comes out.


The story that will not end. This probably ruined Coach Roy's golf game today. My money is still on nothing new happening to Carolina. The NCAA will reconfirm their earlier decisions.

FWIW I share their pessimism that this will amount to much. But I am willing to be proven wrong.

blueduke59
07-01-2014, 12:13 AM
Some are saying that Crowder and Nyangoro are telling Wainstein that the athletic dept had nothing to do with anything. Could be that NCAA is wanting to close the book on the UNC story once and for all. They'll come to NC, interview them both, reiterate their earlier 'findings' that it had nothing to do w/ athletics, and then say that the issue is closed. UNC supposedly is ready to blame somebody else on the academic side while 'cooperating.' Do that, have charges dropped and the flagship goes on it's merry way.

I tend to agree with this

Dukeface88
07-01-2014, 01:46 AM
Curious that NCAA waited until now to want to take a second look. Hard for them to not ignore the heat by media along with a lawsuit they're going to lose for them to get a small (VERY small) dose of religion. IMO they'll find "minor" violations. They knew what UNC was doing years ago. This is just a "Look at us! We're relevant and we're on this!" play. They'll find minor violations and hope Roy doesn't get mad.

You know, ever since this started, I've seen people implying (or stating) that the NCAA is afraid to take on UNC or unwilling to vacate their titles, presumably because of revenue or prestige. Given their actions (or lack thereof), that might be true, but it doesn't make any sense to me. Has everyone forgotten about 2004/2005 USC? Compared to back-to-back football championships in a massive media market, UNC is pretty small potatoes. Given it's only been 4 years since those penalties were handed down, what changed?

BigWayne
07-01-2014, 04:18 AM
You know, ever since this started, I've seen people implying (or stating) that the NCAA is afraid to take on UNC or unwilling to vacate their titles, presumably because of revenue or prestige. Given their actions (or lack thereof), that might be true, but it doesn't make any sense to me. Has everyone forgotten about 2004/2005 USC? Compared to back-to-back football championships in a massive media market, UNC is pretty small potatoes. Given it's only been 4 years since those penalties were handed down, what changed?

It is much easier for the NCAA to punish football schools as the NCAA makes no money off football. Basketball is all that matters to them.

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/2014/03/27/ncaa-approaching-billion-per-year-amid-challenges-players/6973767/

blueduke59
07-01-2014, 08:39 AM
You know, ever since this started, I've seen people implying (or stating) that the NCAA is afraid to take on UNC or unwilling to vacate their titles, presumably because of revenue or prestige. Given their actions (or lack thereof), that might be true, but it doesn't make any sense to me. Has everyone forgotten about 2004/2005 USC? Compared to back-to-back football championships in a massive media market, UNC is pretty small potatoes. Given it's only been 4 years since those penalties were handed down, what changed?

For good or bad ESPN is a very powerful media outlet. A UNC alum is prez. As the previous poster mentioned NCAA makes it's coin on March Madness

wsb3
07-01-2014, 08:40 AM
Willingham claimed that, for more than two decades, these no-show classes were prevalent in the African and Afro-American Studies Department.

CameronBornAndBred
07-01-2014, 08:52 AM
If the NCAA does nothing, it won't be because UNC is a blueblood bankroller for them, it will simply be because the NCAA is intentionally inept at laying down punishments. At this point, they would have to admit they were wrong the first time, which they don't want to do. And they don't want to spoil their image any more than they want to spoil UNC's. (Or any other team's.)
As far as UNC being immune because of the "power" they have, that is hogwash. The tournament is made up of 64 teams, at least 30 of which are consistently in it. UNC is just one of those teams. If they go away for a season, or if they lose a banner, it won't affect the NCAA's bank account one bit. People will still watch, still pay. Besides, those contracts with ESPN are filled out years in advance, nobody knows how the Heels or any other team will be looking years from now.
Inaction is due to the need for a positive image, plain and simple. It costs far less (in both terms of money and negative exposure) for the NCAA to look the other way than it does for them to actually take the time to investigate and lay the hammer down on a member institution. The last thing they want to do is have to deal with ANY school, and UNC knows this, so they have used it (very well) to their advantage. But, unfortunately for both parties, the story is one that will not go away.

SCMatt33
07-01-2014, 11:19 AM
Yes they can look at transcripts, but what are they gonna find--that some basketball players took phony classes? Don't we already know that? They know a bunch of athletes and a bunch of regular students took them, and b/c it was so broad they've decided to call it an academic issue and not their domain, right? (Sorry, its been so long I actually forget exactly what they said...). So I'm just not sure what else we know just b/c McCants released his transcript. Frankly, I'd be surprised if they didn't ask for it the last time they were on campus.

I'm with Bob and OPK until the NCAA shows they have a spine or until some truly new evidence comes out.

The only difference I see is that every player on the '05 team not named McCants that took a paper class has now lied about it publicly. If the media reports are true that at least 5 players on that team took those classes, then 4 of them signedt a false statement that they attended classes that never met. If we've learned anything about the NCAA over the years, it that they hate being lied to more than anything. This is slightly different because it was a public statement and I'd highly doubt that any of those players will speak to the NCAA, but it would still be an instance in which the statements might not matchup with transcripts, especially if Nyang'oro now spills all about exactly which clases never met to get charges dropped.

arnie
07-01-2014, 12:01 PM
It is much easier for the NCAA to punish football schools as the NCAA makes no money off football. Basketball is all that matters to them.

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/2014/03/27/ncaa-approaching-billion-per-year-amid-challenges-players/6973767/

NCAA conversations with Fedora should be a blast. He'll likely tell them to pound sand and brag about his Coastal Division championship a couple of years ago. He might even give em a T-shirt.

Henderson
07-01-2014, 01:56 PM
Yes they can look at transcripts, but what are they gonna find--that some basketball players took phony classes? Don't we already know that? They know a bunch of athletes and a bunch of regular students took them, and b/c it was so broad they've decided to call it an academic issue and not their domain, right? (Sorry, its been so long I actually forget exactly what they said...). So I'm just not sure what else we know just b/c McCants released his transcript. Frankly, I'd be surprised if they didn't ask for it the last time they were on campus.

I'm with Bob and OPK until the NCAA shows they have a spine or until some truly new evidence comes out.

We don't know what Nyang'oro or Crowder has said. Or whether there are other previously unhelpful people at UNC now willing to talk. James Michael McAdoo is listed as a potential witness by the complainants in the US Dept. of Educ. Office of Civil Rights investigation.

If you think about it, high profile investigations tend to bring previously-unknown witnesses out of the woodwork. If the thing is quietly and efficiently handled, people don't come forward. But when there's a big splash and others are coming forward, those closet doors start opening and people start realizing there is cover in numbers, making it safe to come out. We don't know how much of that has already happened out of the public eye.

Kedsy
07-01-2014, 03:24 PM
James Michael McAdoo is listed as a potential witness by the complainants in the US Dept. of Educ. Office of Civil Rights investigation.

Not James Michael McAdoo. The other Michael McAdoo, who played football at UNC and was the center of the beginning of the scandal and who has been very outspoken about the no-show classes for some time.

ricks68
07-01-2014, 04:38 PM
I don't watch CNN anymore----like for many years---but I was just switching channels and saw that they have a bit on The Cheaters coming up in the next segment. So, if anyone is interested, tune in right now.

ricks

ricks68
07-01-2014, 04:57 PM
That's what was quoted just now on CNN. Also, they updated the Willingham lawsuit, etc. They even said that 2 of UNCh's BBall championships may have to be vacated, if it has systematically been going on, as they said the investigation is going back to the 80's. Etc. etc. In addition, CNN took credit "in part" for the pressure instigating the re-opening of the NCAA investigation. "Diploma Mill for 'Student'-Athletes". "The reason they had to take paper classes was because they couldn't do the work". Really, really good.

ricks

rasputin
07-01-2014, 05:06 PM
I don't watch CNN anymore----like for many years---but I was just switching channels and saw that they have a bit on The Cheaters coming up in the next segment. So, if anyone is interested, tune in right now.

ricks

I rarely watch CNN, but somehow I stumbled upon the series of shows they have been doing about the '60's. They are very, very good. It helps that I remember the stuff they are reporting on. Anyway, I recommend it. They run the shows first on Thursday nites, and have been re-running some too.

ArnieMc
07-01-2014, 06:35 PM
You know, ever since this started, I've seen people implying (or stating) that the NCAA is afraid to take on UNC or unwilling to vacate their titles, presumably because of revenue or prestige. Given their actions (or lack thereof), that might be true, but it doesn't make any sense to me. Has everyone forgotten about 2004/2005 USC? Compared to back-to-back football championships in a massive media market, UNC is pretty small potatoes. Given it's only been 4 years since those penalties were handed down, what changed?As I've been saying, the AFAM department was created in the early 90's for the benefit (possibly) of both the football and basketball programs. Who was in charge and had the power to pull it off? John Swofford, who is currently the commissioner of one of the power conferences that might break away from the NCAA. I think everybody's trying to protect the Commish.

Duvall
07-01-2014, 06:40 PM
As I've been saying, the AFAM department was created in the early 90's for the benefit (possibly) of both the football and basketball programs.

You may have been saying it, but you sure as hell haven't been proving it.

OldPhiKap
07-01-2014, 09:15 PM
I seriously doubt that the AFAM department was created for anything other than legitimate purposes. Especially at a large state institution with North Carolina's demographics and history.

I took 200-level African History classes at Duke in the 1980's. And plenty about the struggle for Civil Rights in both history and poly sci classes.

Olympic Fan
07-02-2014, 12:06 PM
I seriously doubt that the AFAM department was created for anything other than legitimate purposes. Especially at a large state institution with North Carolina's demographics and history.

I took 200-level African History classes at Duke in the 1980's. And plenty about the struggle for Civil Rights in both history and poly sci classes.

I feel sure that the AFAM program was established as a legitimate field of study, not as the safety net for UNC athletes. But at some point, that's what it became. The question is when?

The university continues to refuse to push back the investigative envelope (to protect Dean?). That forces us to speculate.

The coincidence that basketball players began migrating to AFAM at almost the exact same moment that Professor Nyang'oro rose to power in the early 1990s is a suspicious circumstance. Proven? No ... but in the wake of UNC's refusal to get to the truth, it's the best timeline we have.

My best guess is that AFAM was established as a legitimate academic department. Then it came under control of a fan-boy, who liked to travel with the basketball team and stalk the sidelines in football. He linked with the academic advisors of the athletic department and formed a partnership to protect academically challenged athletes.

If I had to finger a starting point -- I'd guess the early 1990s, especially 1993.

OldPhiKap
07-02-2014, 03:29 PM
I feel sure that the AFAM program was established as a legitimate field of study, not as the safety net for UNC athletes. But at some point, that's what it became. The question is when?

The university continues to refuse to push back the investigative envelope (to protect Dean?). That forces us to speculate.

The coincidence that basketball players began migrating to AFAM at almost the exact same moment that Professor Nyang'oro rose to power in the early 1990s is a suspicious circumstance. Proven? No ... but in the wake of UNC's refusal to get to the truth, it's the best timeline we have.

My best guess is that AFAM was established as a legitimate academic department. Then it came under control of a fan-boy, who liked to travel with the basketball team and stalk the sidelines in football. He linked with the academic advisors of the athletic department and formed a partnership to protect academically challenged athletes.

If I had to finger a starting point -- I'd guess the early 1990s, especially 1993.

I agree with all of this. I have no idea about the time frame though.

tux
07-02-2014, 03:29 PM
I feel sure that the AFAM program was established as a legitimate field of study, not as the safety net for UNC athletes. But at some point, that's what it became. The question is when?

The university continues to refuse to push back the investigative envelope (to protect Dean?). That forces us to speculate.

The coincidence that basketball players began migrating to AFAM at almost the exact same moment that Professor Nyang'oro rose to power in the early 1990s is a suspicious circumstance. Proven? No ... but in the wake of UNC's refusal to get to the truth, it's the best timeline we have.

My best guess is that AFAM was established as a legitimate academic department. Then it came under control of a fan-boy, who liked to travel with the basketball team and stalk the sidelines in football. He linked with the academic advisors of the athletic department and formed a partnership to protect academically challenged athletes.

If I had to finger a starting point -- I'd guess the early 1990s, especially 1993.


Yes. Let's start with 1993 ;)


Honestly, I've moved on from the initial schadenfreude. As a North Carolinian, this is getting painful. As much as I enjoy pulling against the UNC athletic teams, I'm not very interested in seeing UNC suffer like this --- the folks in charge in CH have really mucked this up. (understatement?)

Dr. Rosenrosen
07-02-2014, 04:18 PM
Yes. Let's start with 1993 ;)


Honestly, I've moved on from the initial schadenfreude. As a North Carolinian, this is getting painful. As much as I enjoy pulling against the UNC athletic teams, I'm not very interested in seeing UNC suffer like this --- the folks in charge in CH have really mucked this up. (understatement?)
Au contraire... I want to see the administration/leadership suffer the full public shame they deserve. And the mass of fans around here who continue to deny and deflect and make excuses deserve to have the smug just completely wiped off their faces - if that's even possible. They flat out cheated. Period. It's to a point where I am almost ashamed to call them a rival.

mattman91
07-02-2014, 04:49 PM
Au contraire... I want to see the administration/leadership suffer the full public shame they deserve. And the mass of fans around here who continue to deny and deflect and make excuses deserve to have the smug just completely wiped off their faces - if that's even possible. They flat out cheated. Period. It's to a point where I am almost ashamed to call them a rival.

A lot of my UNC fan's "don't really care about college sports as much anymore". We all know good and well that if a scandal like this was going on at Duke, they would be ALL OVER it.

cspan37421
07-02-2014, 05:29 PM
Au contraire... I want to see the administration/leadership suffer the full public shame they deserve. And the mass of fans around here who continue to deny and deflect and make excuses deserve to have the smug just completely wiped off their faces - if that's even possible. They flat out cheated. Period. It's to a point where I am almost ashamed to call them a rival.

Why stop at almost?

There was a lot of equity built up in the Duke-UNC rivalry. They have destroyed a lot of that value, IMO, and acted like a school much more suited to being in the SEC (and I'm not referring to Vanderbilt!). I look forward to the day when we have a rival that is more on our wavelength. I have moved on in that aspect of my fandom. It's a shame. I would prefer to hold on in my mind to the great history and thrill of Duke-Carolina games, but it's been an uneven playing field for a long time, and they apparently have no conscience about it at all, so my emotional attachment to the UNC rivalry is just broken. They're on another planet, ethically (and on the off chance that they're not, I don't need to be watching college sports at all).

cspan37421
07-02-2014, 05:32 PM
A lot of my UNC fan's "don't really care about college sports as much anymore". We all know good and well that if a scandal like this was going on at Duke, they would be ALL OVER it.

As well they should.

IF, of course.

But right now the shoe is on their foot, it fits, and we must not acquit (them).

SilkyJ
07-02-2014, 10:57 PM
It is much easier for the NCAA to punish football schools as the NCAA makes no money off football. Basketball is all that matters to them.

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/2014/03/27/ncaa-approaching-billion-per-year-amid-challenges-players/6973767/

I get your sentiment, but I dont think that really holds. All the NCAA basketball revenue (according to the article you linked) comes from the March Madness TV contract, which provides the NCAA with the same amount of revenue whether UNC plays in the dance or not. Punishing one school or even a couple is not going to diminish the value now or in the future. Its March freaking Madness.


The only difference I see is that every player on the '05 team not named McCants that took a paper class has now lied about it publicly. If the media reports are true that at least 5 players on that team took those classes, then 4 of them signedt a false statement that they attended classes that never met. If we've learned anything about the NCAA over the years, it that they hate being lied to more than anything. This is slightly different because it was a public statement and I'd highly doubt that any of those players will speak to the NCAA, but it would still be an instance in which the statements might not matchup with transcripts, especially if Nyang'oro now spills all about exactly which clases never met to get charges dropped.

Sorry, but don't think that holds either. They didn't lie to the NCAA as you said, and they will likely not ever speak to the NCAA. Yes, the NCAA hates being lied to, but there was no NCAA investigation even going on when they made that statement.

And, I think this is irrelevant to your point, but they didn't really lie in their statement. It was so softly worded, here's a link to it (http://collegebasketball.ap.org/article/ex-unc-players-statement-mccants-allegations). They just really said we support Roy and aren't backing Rashaad. There are only 2 statements that could be construed as lying:


...we attended class and did our own academic work.And

...our personal academic experiences are not consistent with Rashad's claims

Both are worded so carefully and ambiguously that you don't have to be a lawyer to know that a lawyer wrote it. "We attended class" not "We did not take no-show classes." And saying "not consistent" just means there experiences could have been a little different. They could have taken a bunch of no-show classes, but not had their course grades moved from one semester to another and they would be "inconsistent" with rashaad. No lying there.


We don't know what Nyang'oro or Crowder has said. Or whether there are other previously unhelpful people at UNC now willing to talk. James Michael McAdoo is listed as a potential witness by the complainants in the US Dept. of Educ. Office of Civil Rights investigation.

If you think about it, high profile investigations tend to bring previously-unknown witnesses out of the woodwork. If the thing is quietly and efficiently handled, people don't come forward. But when there's a big splash and others are coming forward, those closet doors start opening and people start realizing there is cover in numbers, making it safe to come out. We don't know how much of that has already happened out of the public eye.

Now this could make sense. Obviously we know that Nyang'oro is now talking so maybe there's something there. I'm still just not sure what they're going to find that's going to make this go around different.


Au contraire... I want to see the administration/leadership suffer the full public shame they deserve. And the mass of fans around here who continue to deny and deflect and make excuses deserve to have the smug just completely wiped off their faces - if that's even possible. They flat out cheated. Period. It's to a point where I am almost ashamed to call them a rival.

I said this 2 years ago. Let's find a new one...these guys aren't worth our time.

moonpie23
07-02-2014, 11:47 PM
I'm not very interested in seeing UNC suffer like this

I'll cover that for you….

blueduke59
07-03-2014, 07:42 AM
Valvano and NCSU suffered much more for much less. Those yelling the loudest from the tallest trees were the Holes. What did UNLV do that UNC hasn't? UK? Michigan? Yet to this day UNC folk still have the gall to look down on others. You'd think after what has transpired thus far they'd be just a tad humble. I hope they suffer supreme humiliation

sagegrouse
07-03-2014, 08:45 AM
Valvano and NCSU suffered much more for much less. Those yelling the loudest from the tallest trees were the Holes. What did UNLV do that UNC hasn't? UK? Michigan? Yet to this day UNC folk still have the gall to look down on others. You'd think after what has transpired thus far they'd be just a tad humble. I hope they suffer supreme humiliation

This is the main point. What has and is going on at UNC is surely matched or exceeded at other schools: Gaw-Gia, Okie State, LSU, etc. A main difference is that UNC pretends to be different and really is different given its overall academic achievements.

This contrast -- hypocrisy, really -- is causing anguish among the savants in the UNC fan base and is at least one-half the problem.

Jarhead
07-03-2014, 10:36 AM
The front page has a link to Barry Jacobs elegant article (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/2014/7/3/5867089/barry-jacobs-weighs-in-on-unc-scandal) on the current NCAA moves. As always, he gives us a clearer view of the situation. Read it. You'll enjoy it. Now, can someone tell me how I can give Barry a bucket of sporks?

devil84
07-03-2014, 02:41 PM
The front page has a link to Barry Jacobs elegant article (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/2014/7/3/5867089/barry-jacobs-weighs-in-on-unc-scandal) on the current NCAA moves. As always, he gives us a clearer view of the situation. Read it. You'll enjoy it. Now, can someone tell me how I can give Barry a bucket of sporks?

Sorry, I can't help you get pitchforks for Barry until he logs in here and identify himself. He did a nice job on that article. But what stood out to me was a commenter going by the name of Jimmy Jazz (identifying himself with NCSU).

His first comment:
District Attorney Jim Woodall pointing fingers and marveling at the conflict of interest inherent in the NCAA is rich. How about the conflict of interest that may be inherent in his possession of not one, but two degrees from the University of North Carolina. Or how about the fact that he was once a partner in a law firm with none other than Jim Baddour, former state legislator and brother of former UNC Athletics Director Dick Baddour?

...

I'm asking: information needed by whom? By the citizens of the State of North Carolina, graduates and professors of the University of North Carolina? Or information needed by the University of North Carolina to sweep Nyan'goro's potential insight under the rug?

...

Yes, DA Jim Woodall has two degrees from UNC. I knew that. Didn't know he was a partner with Phil Baddour, former UNC AD Dick Baddour's brother (not Jim, as Jimmy Jazz said). I checked some sources, and Anne Blythe's N&O article (http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/02/22/3643980/unc-ties-dont-limit-prosecutors.html) about Woodall's ability to be impartial confirms these facts. The name "Blythe" caught my eye, and Anne Blythe is the brother of Will Blythe (http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/02/20/999224/he-wont-go-to-hell-for-hating.html), the author of "To Hate Like This Is To Be Happy Forever." Quite an interesting person to write about being unbiased with regard to UNC.

Then Jimmy Jazz replied to himself:
I forgot to add an important tidbit. Reportedly, the judge handling Nyan'goro's case has a last name of none other than Baddour.

From a news story on the piece:
"Bill Thomas, Nyang’oro’s lawyer, was not in the courtroom where Superior Court Judge Allen Baddour was presiding."

Well, guess who Judge Allen Baddour's father is? Yes, Dick Baddour, former UNC Athletics Director.

Um, yep, Judge Allen Baddour is the son of Dick Baddour (http://www.bluenc.com/tags/judge-allen-baddour) (source selected for best picture).

So, to summarize, the DA prosecuting Nyangoro has 2 degrees from UNC and was a partner with the former AD's brother, while the former AD's son is the judge in this case. (And someone who writes a news story about the DA's impartiality is the brother of the author of a book about the Duke/UNC rivalry and is unabashedly unbiased towards the Tar Heels?!)

Can this get any more biased towards UNC?

Jarhead
07-03-2014, 03:30 PM
Sorry, I can't help you get pitchforks for Barry until he logs in here and identify himself. He did a nice job on that article. But what stood out to me was a commenter going by the name of Jimmy Jazz (identifying himself with NCSU).

His first comment:

Yes, DA Jim Woodall has two degrees from UNC. I knew that. Didn't know he was a partner with Phil Baddour, former UNC AD Dick Baddour's brother (not Jim, as Jimmy Jazz said). I checked some sources, and Anne Blythe's N&O article (http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/02/22/3643980/unc-ties-dont-limit-prosecutors.html) about Woodall's ability to be impartial confirms these facts. The name "Blythe" caught my eye, and Anne Blythe is the brother of Will Blythe (http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/02/20/999224/he-wont-go-to-hell-for-hating.html), the author of "To Hate Like This Is To Be Happy Forever." Quite an interesting person to write about being unbiased with regard to UNC.

Then Jimmy Jazz replied to himself:

Um, yep, Judge Allen Baddour is the son of Dick Baddour (http://www.bluenc.com/tags/judge-allen-baddour) (source selected for best picture).

So, to summarize, the DA prosecuting Nyangoro has 2 degrees from UNC and was a partner with the former AD's brother, while the former AD's son is the judge in this case. (And someone who writes a news story about the DA's impartiality is the brother of the author of a book about the Duke/UNC rivalry and is unabashedly unbiased towards the Tar Heels?!)

Can this get any more biased towards UNC?

Yeah, I took note of the Jimmy Jazz comments which, with your added information, makes me think that some sort of medieval plot is going on here. As a North Carolina citizen I keep wondering when the Attorney General of the State gets involved. Somehow it seems that all of this conflict of interest must somehow be illegal. The sad irony is that when that happens our discussions on this forum must end, but that'd be okay with me. I just want it to end.

plimnko
07-03-2014, 03:41 PM
as a north carolina resident, i wonder how many of our tax dollars have been squandered in all this.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
07-03-2014, 03:47 PM
as a north carolina resident, i wonder how many of our tax dollars have been squandered in all this.

I read online that this year's freshman class will have a mandatory $300 line item fee for this and future NCAA investigation legal fees.

Okay, I didn't really. But it would be amusing.

ChrisP
07-03-2014, 04:02 PM
as a north carolina resident, i wonder how many of our tax dollars have been squandered in all this.

Amen to that! I am also a resident (and taxpayer) in the state.

BD80
07-03-2014, 04:56 PM
... So, to summarize, the DA prosecuting Nyangoro has 2 degrees from UNC and was a partner with the former AD's brother, while the former AD's son is the judge in this case. ...

And the prosecutor was the law partner of the JUDGE'S UNCLE!

These carolina alums are crawling all over each other like a box full of hamsters

There is absolutely no semblance of impartiality here. Sigh, I guess its futile to even pretend there would or even could be.

itshoopsbabee
07-03-2014, 05:25 PM
And the prosecutor was the law partner of the JUDGE'S UNCLE!

These carolina alums are crawling all over each other like a box full of hamsters

There is absolutely no semblance of impartiality here. Sigh, I guess its futile to even pretend there would or even could be.

"Orange County is the Chicago of North Carolina."

blueduke59
07-03-2014, 05:53 PM
"Orange County is the Chicago of North Carolina."

LOL Gotta agree with this

devildeac
07-03-2014, 06:31 PM
Yeah, I took note of the Jimmy Jazz comments which, with your added information, makes me think that some sort of medieval plot is going on here. As a North Carolina citizen I keep wondering when the Attorney General of the State gets involved. Somehow it seems that all of this conflict of interest must somehow be illegal. The sad irony is that when that happens our discussions on this forum must end, but that'd be okay with me. I just want it to end.

I don't think you want the AG of NC involved in this one either.

http://www.ncdoj.gov/getdoc/9db5812c-31fa-47cb-a91b-8f39007fdb74/Attorney-General-Roy-Cooper.aspx


Key excerpt from his bio:

"Roy Cooper attended UNC Chapel Hill as a Morehead Scholar and received his undergraduate and law degrees there."

I'd bet this Roy would love to get involved in this affair.

They're freaking everywhere.

roywhite
07-03-2014, 07:40 PM
Under cover of a holiday weekend and a hurricane hitting the coast:

Charge dropped against former UNC African studies chairman (http://abc11.com/sports/charge-dropped-against-former-unc-african-studies-chairman/153403/)


CHAPEL HILL, N.C. (WTVD) --
Orange County District Attorney Jim Woodall said Thursday he has agreed to drop a charge against former UNC-Chapel Hill African studies chairman Julius Nyang'oro in exchange for his cooperation in the ongoing investigation of an academic scandal at the school.

Newton_14
07-03-2014, 07:43 PM
And the prosecutor was the law partner of the JUDGE'S UNCLE!

These carolina alums are crawling all over each other like a box full of hamsters

There is absolutely no semblance of impartiality here. Sigh, I guess its futile to even pretend there would or even could be.

To further D84's point, that has been the problem with this entire sordid ordeal the entire time. Same thing with the PJ Hairston charge dismissal last summer. The Chapel Hill Mafia (as me and a buddy have referred to UNC since High School) run this state, and the media. With Swofford they also run the ACC. Had this been any other school in the conference, even Duke, and especially NC State, the NCAA would have dropped the mega hammer long ago, they would be on probation in Men's & Women's Hoops, Football, and baseball, and PJ Hairston would have been kicked out of school and served jail time.

With a faithful Heel grad in every key position needed, they have every base covered to ensure everything gets swept under the rug nicely and neatly. And that my friends is the real definition of "The Carolina Way"

miramar
07-04-2014, 01:57 AM
Under cover of a holiday weekend and a hurricane hitting the coast:

Charge dropped against former UNC African studies chairman (http://abc11.com/sports/charge-dropped-against-former-unc-african-studies-chairman/153403/)

If I understand this correctly, the only charge against him was that he took $12K fraudulently since he didn't teach the summer school class that he was paid for, but he has made restitution so I assume that he would only have received a slap on the wrist anyway.

I just hope that he gave Wainstein plenty of information since obviously UNC could not have forced him to talk without this charge hanging over his head.

Nyang'oro is not a decent and honorable man as his lawyer says, but if he was forthright with Wainstein's team then this could be the best solution all around. Except for Roy and friends, of course.

Dr. Rosenrosen
07-04-2014, 09:04 AM
If I understand this correctly, the only charge against him was that he took $12K fraudulently since he didn't teach the summer school class that he was paid for, but he has made restitution so I assume that he would only have received a slap on the wrist anyway.

I just hope that he gave Wainstein plenty of information since obviously UNC could not have forced him to talk without this charge hanging over his head.

Nyang'oro is not a decent and honorable man as his lawyer says, but if he was forthright with Wainstein's team then this could be the best solution all around. Except for Roy and friends, of course.
The only way he even sniffs "decent and honorable" is if he demonstrates that he was pushed into this by UNC administration and/or athletic leadership. And now he's making amends and doing the "decent and honorable" thing by coming clean.

I was going back thru old articles and found one in which Kane documented email exchanges where an athletic counselor was clearly making strong suggestions about offering the easy courses during a certain summer session.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/06/08/2948647/former-unc-african-studies-chairman.html

Stop and think about just this... Counselors suggesting to a professor/dept head that he offer specific courses at a specific time. I believe that is the text book definition of the tail wagging the dog. And cheating.

Dr. Rosenrosen
07-04-2014, 09:21 AM
To further D84's point, that has been the problem with this entire sordid ordeal the entire time. Same thing with the PJ Hairston charge dismissal last summer. The Chapel Hill Mafia (as me and a buddy have referred to UNC since High School) run this state, and the media. With Swofford they also run the ACC. Had this been any other school in the conference, even Duke, and especially NC State, the NCAA would have dropped the mega hammer long ago, they would be on probation in Men's & Women's Hoops, Football, and baseball, and PJ Hairston would have been kicked out of school and served jail time.

With a faithful Heel grad in every key position needed, they have every base covered to ensure everything gets swept under the rug nicely and neatly. And that my friends is the real definition of "The Carolina Way"
Wainstein is the only one without a horse in the race, right? Except that he is being paid by UNC. Soooo...

Thurber Whyte
07-04-2014, 04:11 PM
It is not fraud if Dr. Nyang'oro created these courses with the implicit or explicit approval of his superiors. True or not, that would be his best defense. If I had to guess, I would lean towards true. While department heads create course schedules and lineups, in universities with which I am familiar, those schedules and lineups still have to be approved by the Dean. The dean of a university college is not a purely titular figure like the Holy Roman Emperor and has an active role in university management. A course lineup with a lot of independent study courses and courses without meeting times or places ought to have raised some red flags. Course content and satisfying major requirements also implicate accreditation issues that the entire college has to manage. There are also budget issues and duplicative courses with low enrollments invite scrutiny. At the very least, the Dean’s Office probably knew or suspected that something was fishy about these courses although not extent of it: no coursework as opposed to nominal coursework. I would suggest that the reason Dr. Nyang'oro has been so talkative is that doing so tends to exculpate him. Otherwise, his attorney would tell him to clam up. Indeed, even if the charges were false, his attorney would still likely tell him to clam up before trial unless he could support his statements to police with other evidence.

I do not buy the rationale that one of the reasons for dropping the charges is that prosecuting Dr. Nyang'oro would not be worth the effort given the likelihood of a small sentence or probation before judgment. Such a consideration would have been readily apparent at the outset. Also, given the fact that it is unlikely that kind Uncle Julius created these courses for athletes on his own initiative, but rather at the request of or through the connivance of members of the Athletic Department, the entire purpose of prosecuting him in the first place would seem to be an attempt to find a scapegoat, a purpose for which a finding of culpability to any crime would be sufficient.

To be fair to prosecutors, indicting small fish in order to pressure them into inculpating people higher up in an organization is a standard tactic. However, in the absence of any further indictments against new people, I do not see any evidence of trying to climb the ladder, rather the opposite. I doubt that prosecutors ever meant their efforts to aid UNC’s own internal investigation or that they wished to get to the bottom of the matter themselves. If they did, they would have impaneled an investigative grand jury at the outset and stated issuing subpoenas.

BD80
07-04-2014, 06:54 PM
It is not fraud if Dr. Nyang'oro created these courses with the implicit or explicit approval of his superiors. ...

... it is unlikely that kind Uncle Julius created these courses for athletes on his own initiative, but rather at the request of or through the connivance of members of the Athletic Department, ...

... I do not see any evidence of trying to climb the ladder, rather the opposite. I doubt that prosecutors ever meant their efforts to aid UNC’s own internal investigation or that they wished to get to the bottom of the matter themselves. If they did, they would have impaneled an investigative grand jury at the outset and stated issuing subpoenas.

It is still fraud, but not fraud perpetrated against the university but BY the university. The good doctor was a co-conspirator

Indoor66
07-05-2014, 02:42 PM
It is still fraud, but not fraud perpetrated against the university but BY the university. The good doctor was a co-conspirator

Bingo! It is really a simple case when you look at the principals involved and the events that transpired.

Dukehky
07-05-2014, 03:12 PM
2005, 2009.... Strip 'em

SilkyJ
07-05-2014, 04:06 PM
They're freaking everywhere.

#diplomamill

roywhite
07-05-2014, 04:49 PM
And the prosecutor was the law partner of the JUDGE'S UNCLE!

These carolina alums are crawling all over each other like a box full of hamsters

There is absolutely no semblance of impartiality here. Sigh, I guess its futile to even pretend there would or even could be.


To further D84's point, that has been the problem with this entire sordid ordeal the entire time. Same thing with the PJ Hairston charge dismissal last summer. The Chapel Hill Mafia (as me and a buddy have referred to UNC since High School) run this state, and the media. With Swofford they also run the ACC. Had this been any other school in the conference, even Duke, and especially NC State, the NCAA would have dropped the mega hammer long ago, they would be on probation in Men's & Women's Hoops, Football, and baseball, and PJ Hairston would have been kicked out of school and served jail time.

With a faithful Heel grad in every key position needed, they have every base covered to ensure everything gets swept under the rug nicely and neatly. And that my friends is the real definition of "The Carolina Way"

Yeah, a wink, a nod, and a few words in Swahili -- the fix is in.

Merlindevildog91
07-05-2014, 08:20 PM
When Josh Gordon got arrested for DWI in Raleigh, guess who was there to bond him out?

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11178895/josh-gordon-cleveland-browns-arrested-dwi

Does the name Hayden "Fats" Thomas ring any bells?

Atlanta Duke
07-06-2014, 10:26 AM
When Josh Gordon got arrested for DWI in Raleigh, guess who was there to bond him out?

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11178895/josh-gordon-cleveland-browns-arrested-dwi

Does the name Hayden "Fats" Thomas ring any bells?

When out of town athletes get in trouble there must be some sort of Bat-Signal that is sent out for the local go to fixer to bail them out

BD80
07-06-2014, 11:38 AM
When out of town athletes get in trouble there must be some sort of Bat-Signal that is sent out for the local go to fixer to bail them out

4202

Looks a little bit like ol' roy ...

Henderson
07-06-2014, 06:57 PM
When out of town athletes get in trouble there must be some sort of Bat-Signal that is sent out for the local go to fixer to bail them out

Don't fret. Mr. Wainstein has things under control.

4203

moonpie23
07-06-2014, 10:01 PM
McCants: "we have strategic plans" (http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/07/05/3986296/former-unc-basketball-player-mccants.html)

jtheall
07-07-2014, 11:52 AM
UNC officials try to set up meeting with McCants (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/11184956/north-carolina-tar-heels-officials-attempted-reach-former-player-rashad-mccants-allegations-academic-fraud)


University of North Carolina officials have reportedly attempted to set up a meeting with former player Rashad McCants about allegations concerning academic fraud, which he made on ESPN's "Outside the Lines."

UNC associate athletics director Vincent Ille confirmed to the Charlotte Observer that text messages and a certified letter were sent to McCants, but he had yet to respond.

"I learned today of public statements you have made that indicate your knowledge of potential NCAA rule violations involving the University of North Carolina," the UNC letter to McCants said, the Observer reported. "I would like to meet with you at your earliest convenience to discuss this in greater detail."

CameronBornAndBred
07-07-2014, 11:58 AM
UNC officials try to set up meeting with McCants (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/11184956/north-carolina-tar-heels-officials-attempted-reach-former-player-rashad-mccants-allegations-academic-fraud)

4205

FerryFor50
07-07-2014, 12:03 PM
UNC officials try to set up meeting with McCants (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/11184956/north-carolina-tar-heels-officials-attempted-reach-former-player-rashad-mccants-allegations-academic-fraud)

If McCants is not heard from for a few days after this meeting, we probably should start looking by digging under the Old Well (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Well)...

Henderson
07-07-2014, 12:28 PM
If McCants is not heard from for a few days after this meeting, we probably should start looking by digging under the Old Well (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Well)...

McCants first made his allegations on June 11.

On July 4, McCants gave an interview saying he hadn't been contacted by UNC-CH about his allegations.

On July 6, UNC-CH sent him messages saying they'd like to talk to him.

Never occurred to them until this weekend? Really....

OldPhiKap
07-07-2014, 01:05 PM
I'm all for piling on the Dump on the Hump, but -- I thought that when UNC made their initial response to McCants, part of the response was that they invited him to contact UNC to discuss the matter. If so, it is a bit disingenuous to say that the university hasn't reached out to him.

I would be surprised if the first written thing to him was just a few days ago; I am sure that the legal and/or PR department would have sent something.

Henderson
07-07-2014, 01:09 PM
I'm all for piling on the Dump on the Hump, but -- I thought that when UNC made their initial response to McCants, part of the response was that they invited him to contact UNC to discuss the matter. If so, it is a bit disingenuous to say that the university hasn't reached out to him.

I would be surprised if the first written thing to him was just a few days ago; I am sure that the legal and/or PR department would have sent something.

Might be right. Maybe someone has the UNC "reach out" link. I don't remember one, but that means nothing. Odd that UNC-CH leaked the contents of their Sunday letter without mentioning that they'd already reached out to him and were just following up/reiterating.

OldPhiKap
07-07-2014, 01:15 PM
This is what I was thinking of:


http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/11036924/former-north-carolina-basketball-star-rashad-mccants-says-took-sham-classes


In a statement to "Outside the Lines" on Thursday, UNC athletics director Bubba Cunningham said: "It is disappointing any time a student is dissatisfied with his or her experience. I welcome the opportunity to speak with Rashad McCants about returning to UNC to continue his academic career -- just as we have welcomed many former student-athletes interested in completing their degrees.

"The university hired former federal prosecutor Kenneth Wainstein in January to conduct an independent investigation into past academic and athletic irregularities. While these are the first allegations we have heard from Mr. McCants, I encourage him to speak with Mr. Wainstein. ...

But I agree with you that Carolina should have had additional follow-up and it is hard for me to fathom that they did not in fact do so.

Atlanta Duke
07-07-2014, 01:58 PM
UNC officials try to set up meeting with McCants (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/11184956/north-carolina-tar-heels-officials-attempted-reach-former-player-rashad-mccants-allegations-academic-fraud)

McCants has been told by UNC that Tessio is going to take care of security for the meeting

OldPhiKap
07-08-2014, 07:21 AM
Per an AP article in my paper this morning, UNC officials sent a letter to McCants on June 6 that was delivered June 9. It also sent letters on June 8 ans June 11. McCants has not responded.

Henderson
07-08-2014, 07:55 AM
Per an AP article in my paper this morning, UNC officials sent a letter to McCants on June 6 that was delivered June 9. It also sent letters on June 8 ans June 11. McCants has not responded.

Well, if that's the case, I withdraw my criticism of UNC-CH for not reaching out to him earlier than this past weekend. June 6 (not June 11 as I thought) was the date of McCants' first appearance on OTL. So if the AP report is correct, UNC-CH has been trying to talk to him since then.

But it's an odd report, because as late as last Friday McCants was saying he hadn't heard from UNC-CH about the matter. At least I think that's what he said.

CameronBornAndBred
07-08-2014, 08:45 AM
Caulton Tudor's take on McCants. Like him or not, there is some truth to what he writes.

McCants, Felton and May were all ranked among the top 10 individuals, but only McCants arrived with an aloof, self-centered personality. Only 18-years-old at the time, he had the demeanor of a snooty superstar.
Now almost 30, and long removed from any hope of a successful NBA career, McCants’ actions during the past month smack of his lingering need for attention.

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/mccants-wanted-limelight-from-the-start/13791619/

He also offers some truth in this statement, too.

As much as many Carolina fans may dislike McCants today -- as at a lot of them did during his college career -- the Heels never would have won the 2005 NCAA title without his offense.

roywhite
07-08-2014, 09:55 AM
Caulton Tudor's take on McCants. Like him or not, there is some truth to what he writes.

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/mccants-wanted-limelight-from-the-start/13791619/

He also offers some truth in this statement, too.




A discussion of personalities, whether it be McCants, Willingham or whoever, by Carolina defenders is mainly a distraction and deflection.

The issues are fairly straight forward at this point IMO -- was there fraud in terms of classes, grade changes, failure to meet eligibility standards, etc.; what was the extent of this fraud, who directed it, and what should the penalties be for this institutional behavior.

BigWayne
07-08-2014, 11:37 AM
The bandwagon is shrinking....

http://www.mtairynews.com/news/sports/3876611/The-black-eye-in-Chapel-Hill-keeps-getting-worse

77devil
07-08-2014, 11:50 AM
The bandwagon is shrinking....

http://www.mtairynews.com/news/sports/3876611/The-black-eye-in-Chapel-Hill-keeps-getting-worse

Not exactly the Charlotte Observer, but when you lose Mayberry you know it's dire.

oldnavy
07-08-2014, 01:22 PM
A discussion of personalities, whether it be McCants, Willingham or whoever, by Carolina defenders is mainly a distraction and deflection.

The issues are fairly straight forward at this point IMO -- was there fraud in terms of classes, grade changes, failure to meet eligibility standards, etc.; what was the extent of this fraud, who directed it, and what should the penalties be for this institutional behavior.

I agree, this issue is simple.

I'll give you that McCants is a jerk.... but is he telling the truth or is he lying about what happened at UNC?

ncexnyc
07-08-2014, 02:11 PM
I agree, this issue is simple.

I'll give you that McCants is a jerk.... but is he telling the truth or is he lying about what happened at UNC?
Since UNC has never challenged the transcript which was produced by McCants, but has instead let their minions attack his character and motivations for coming out, I think that is all we need to know about who is telling the truth.

ChrisP
07-08-2014, 02:17 PM
Not exactly the Charlotte Observer, but when you lose Mayberry you know it's dire.

First, that's a very um...different quality of writing that I'm used to seeing from a newspaper. I had to leave a comment because, while I applaud the author's criticism of UNC, I really did not appreciate his dragging Maggette into it. What does Corey Maggette (or Chris Webber or Derrick Rose) have to do with anything that's happened at UNC? But, what annoyed me the most was his insinuation that what happened with Piggie & Maggette was at all comparable to Ed Martin basically paying Webber to come to UM and Rose cheating his way into Memphis. Piggie of course had no connection to Duke and, while the payment to Maggette is certainly not something to be proud of as a Duke fan, I don't see how it in any came close to "cheating" by the university. To suggest Duke should have had its wins with Maggette in the lineup stripped is thus absurd, IMHO. But then again, I'm not the most objective guy in the world when it comes to Duke bball.

TruBlu
07-08-2014, 07:21 PM
First, that's a very um...different quality of writing that I'm used to seeing from a newspaper. I had to leave a comment because, while I applaud the author's criticism of UNC, I really did not appreciate his dragging Maggette into it. What does Corey Maggette (or Chris Webber or Derrick Rose) have to do with anything that's happened at UNC? But, what annoyed me the most was his insinuation that what happened with Piggie & Maggette was at all comparable to Ed Martin basically paying Webber to come to UM and Rose cheating his way into Memphis. Piggie of course had no connection to Duke and, while the payment to Maggette is certainly not something to be proud of as a Duke fan, I don't see how it in any came close to "cheating" by the university. To suggest Duke should have had its wins with Maggette in the lineup stripped is thus absurd, IMHO. But then again, I'm not the most objective guy in the world when it comes to Duke bball.

Sporked you. As far as the above bolded part, it is his sly way of hinting that "everyone else does it" while getting in a jab at Duke. Tar heels are so class-less, in more ways than one.

Newton_14
07-08-2014, 09:11 PM
First, that's a very um...different quality of writing that I'm used to seeing from a newspaper. I had to leave a comment because, while I applaud the author's criticism of UNC, I really did not appreciate his dragging Maggette into it. What does Corey Maggette (or Chris Webber or Derrick Rose) have to do with anything that's happened at UNC? But, what annoyed me the most was his insinuation that what happened with Piggie & Maggette was at all comparable to Ed Martin basically paying Webber to come to UM and Rose cheating his way into Memphis. Piggie of course had no connection to Duke and, while the payment to Maggette is certainly not something to be proud of as a Duke fan, I don't see how it in any came close to "cheating" by the university. To suggest Duke should have had its wins with Maggette in the lineup stripped is thus absurd, IMHO. But then again, I'm not the most objective guy in the world when it comes to Duke bball.

I had the same reaction and his facts on the matter are way off. Maggette accepted $1500 from his AAU Coach before he ever enrolled at Duke. Had he come back for his Sophomore season, the NCAA would have made him pay back the money to a charity of his choice, and would have made him sit out some number of games, likely between 5 to 10 games, based on the amount of money he accepted while in High school. Duke would not have been charged with any violations, and they certainly would not have had to forfeit any games. That's how the NCAA handles situations of that nature. There were no recruiting violations, and there wasn't a case of playing an ineligible player. But hey, never let facts get in the way of a fictional story that fits the narrative one is trying to pass off as fact.

I would encourage folks to not click on the link and give this idiot more hits to his made up story.

arnie
07-08-2014, 09:44 PM
I had the same reaction and his facts on the matter are way off. Maggette accepted $1500 from his AAU Coach before he ever enrolled at Duke. Had he come back for his Sophomore season, the NCAA would have made him pay back the money to a charity of his choice, and would have made him sit out some number of games, likely between 5 to 10 games, based on the amount of money he accepted while in High school. Duke would not have been charged with any violations, and they certainly would not have had to forfeit any games. That's how the NCAA handles situations of that nature. There were no recruiting violations, and there wasn't a case of playing an ineligible player. But hey, never let facts get in the way of a fictional story that fits the narrative one is trying to pass off as fact.

I would encourage folks to not click on the link and give this idiot more hits to his made up story.

Very common approach in this state to deflect criticism of the esteemed flagship. Local sports radio had Carolina day - invited one ex UNC player after another to brag about their education and love for the school. Recall hearing another broadcaster (Dave Glenn) state absolutely the Duke 2010 banner should come down due to jewelrygate. However, this garbage simply isn't working anymore, too much national negative press to overcome.

Atlanta Duke
07-08-2014, 10:26 PM
However, this garbage simply isn't working anymore, too much national negative press to overcome.

Maybe not - the former UNC player scheduled to testify before Congress tomorrow is one who apparently did not get a free ride on the academic fraud bandwagon

A U.S. Senate committee will conduct a hearing Wednesday on the well-being of college athletes, including an examination of whether they’re getting a chance at an education.

Among those scheduled to testify: a former UNC-Chapel Hill football player who was wrongly accused of academic fraud by the NCAA four years ago.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/07/08/3992293/us-senate-hearing-on-college-athletics.html?sp=/99/100/&ihp=1#storylink=cpy

duke80
07-08-2014, 10:37 PM
Very common approach in this state to deflect criticism of the esteemed flagship. Local sports radio had Carolina day - invited one ex UNC player after another to brag about their education and love for the school. Recall hearing another broadcaster (Dave Glenn) state absolutely the Duke 2010 banner should come down due to jewelrygate. However, this garbage simply isn't working anymore, too much national negative press to overcome.

I am continually amazed at their anger and trying to change the facts already known. What they have done is on an institutional scale and so outstrips a mistake made by one person like Maggette it is not even funny. I'm not sure how many people outside the UNC circle is buying their press at this point, but they will keep trying to sell it until the very end of this sordid matter. At least they have each other. As my wife always says, 'Denial is not a river in Egypt.'

roywhite
07-08-2014, 11:04 PM
I am continually amazed at their anger and trying to change the facts already known. What they have done is on an institutional scale and so outstrips a mistake made by one person like Maggette it is not even funny. I'm not sure how many people outside the UNC circle is buying their press at this point, but they will keep trying to sell it until the very end of this sordid matter. At least they have each other. As my wife always says, 'Denial is not a river in Egypt.'

Under the Kübler-Ross model of emotional stages of grief (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance), we're still in the early stages with plenty of denial and anger from the light blue faithful.

At least, they now seem to realize something terrible has happened. That's a start.

CameronBornAndBred
07-09-2014, 11:31 AM
I missed this, it was reported two days ago in the Charlotte Observer. Ka-ching....

(
Not Billy) Packer asked him: “Are you willing to have a conversation with the folks at North Carolina?”

McCants responded: “The question is what are we talking about, honestly. I mean I have a check being written to me from the University of North Carolina for over $10 million due to the exploitation of me as a player and the lack of education that I received. The NCAA has a check for me for over $300 million to help me facilitate these sports education programs across the country. These are things that’s in the works.”


http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2014/07/07/5029760/mccants-back-on-radio-along-with.html#.U71fb_ldXKO

That's the first I've heard of UNC paying up.

P.S...that article popped up on a link from this one, which asks more logical questions, such as
Does anyone really believe the NCAA is giving McCants $300 million and propping him up as a shining example in the fight for the purity of student-athletes?
http://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2014/7/8/5880765/rashad-mccants-north-carolina-scandal-ncaa-payments

SilkyJ
07-09-2014, 11:39 AM
I missed this, it was reported two days ago in the Charlotte Observer. Ka-ching....

(

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2014/07/07/5029760/mccants-back-on-radio-along-with.html#.U71fb_ldXKO

That's the first I've heard of UNC paying up.

P.S...that article popped up on a link from this one, which asks more logical questions, such as
http://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2014/7/8/5880765/rashad-mccants-north-carolina-scandal-ncaa-payments

Yea that quote lost all its credibility the second he said the NCAA is going to pay him $300M to do anything. Puh-lease.

77devil
07-09-2014, 11:44 AM
Yea that quote lost all its credibility the second he said the NCAA is going to pay him $300M to do anything. Puh-lease.

Actually, there was no credibility to begin with.:)

Tom B.
07-09-2014, 11:44 AM
I missed this, it was reported two days ago in the Charlotte Observer. Ka-ching....

Packer asked him: "Are you willing to have a conversation with the folks at North Carolina?"

McCants responded: "The question is what are we talking about, honestly. I mean I have a check being written to me from the University of North Carolina for over $10 million due to the exploitation of me as a player and the lack of education that I received. The NCAA has a check for me for over $300 million to help me facilitate these sports education programs across the country. These are things that’s in the works."

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2014/07/07/5029760/mccants-back-on-radio-along-with.html#.U71fb_ldXKO

That's the first I've heard of UNC paying up.

P.S...that article popped up on a link from this one, which asks more logical questions, such as

Does anyone really believe the NCAA is giving McCants $300 million and propping him up as a shining example in the fight for the purity of student-athletes?

http://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2014/7/8/5880765/rashad-mccants-north-carolina-scandal-ncaa-payments



I don't think anyone is paying McCants anything. This just seems like a case of Rashad being Rashad. Of course, the Heel faithful will use it as ammo to "prove" that anything McCants says is unreliable.

CameronBornAndBred
07-09-2014, 12:32 PM
I don't think anyone is paying McCants anything. This just seems like a case of Rashad being Rashad. Of course, the Heel faithful will use it as ammo to "prove" that anything McCants says is unreliable.
If Carolina DOES pay him anything, as a taxpaying resident, I want my money back.

blueduke59
07-09-2014, 07:25 PM
Southern Part Of Hell: http://www.nationalreview.com/phi-beta-cons/382232/southern-part-hell-bernie-reeves

Henderson
07-09-2014, 07:47 PM
Southern Part Of Hell: http://www.nationalreview.com/phi-beta-cons/382232/southern-part-hell-bernie-reeves

The author, Bernie Reeves, is a 1969 UNC-CH grad and publisher of the Triad Business Journal.

PSurprise
07-09-2014, 07:48 PM
Has anyone seen or heard from Wheat? Did he say he was going to be gone all summer? Or does he only come out during the season? Somehow I think he will think that the McCants stuff will affect Duke's lack of development of big men this year...

I'm honestly just wondering what his thoughts are on this whole mess, since he seems to be one of the more level-headed UNC fans (which one can count on one hand methinks).

Duvall
07-09-2014, 07:49 PM
Southern Part Of Hell: http://www.nationalreview.com/phi-beta-cons/382232/southern-part-hell-bernie-reeves


Chancellor Thorp has gone, replaced by Carol Folt, a female from Dartmouth where girls field hockey and badminton represent the sports tradition. Folt was the choice of the faculty, another example of wardens capitulating to the inmates. (As an aside, Bill Roper, respected dean of School of Medicine at UNC, offered his services to replace Thorp. He was willing to absorb a huge pay cut to save the university. He was rebuffed so a female token could take the helm, whether qualified or not).

DBR has higher standards than this.

roywhite
07-09-2014, 08:00 PM
DBR has higher standards than this.

Well, we were talking about UNC. And that comment was from a UNC alum about UNC.

Duvall
07-09-2014, 08:00 PM
Well, we were talking about UNC. And that comment was from a UNC alum about UNC.

And? We expect a higher level of discussion here - at least that's what we always tell ourselves.

Tappan Zee Devil
07-09-2014, 08:06 PM
And?

That is what he said.

ncexnyc
07-09-2014, 08:13 PM
And? We expect a higher level of discussion here - at least that's what we always tell ourselves.

Where was your sense of fair play and what constitutes proper posting etitiqutte during the Sterling fiasco?

I suggest you do some research on Ms. Folt and then you might understand why this gentleman writes about her they way he does.

Duvall
07-09-2014, 08:25 PM
I suggest you do some research on Ms. Folt and then you might understand why this gentleman writes about her they way he does.

Oh, I think I understand already.

Henderson
07-09-2014, 08:35 PM
DBR has higher standards than this.

If by that statement you mean that people here wouldn't likely say things like that about Carol Folt without being called out for it, I agree.

If you mean that the link shouldn't have been posted or that it doesn't make for legitimate discussion here, I disagree.

The misogynist cheap shots at Folt and Dartmouth notwithstanding, the fact that he's a relatively prominent alum saying some pretty harsh things about the mess at his alma mater is interesting.

Atlanta Duke
07-09-2014, 09:30 PM
Southern Part Of Hell: http://www.nationalreview.com/phi-beta-cons/382232/southern-part-hell-bernie-reeves

Mr. Reeves is not a Florida State fan:D

I sat beside Atlantic Coast Conference commissioner John Swofford during a luncheon at the Kenan-Flagler School of Business at UNC in 1990, the day of the announcement Florida State University was joining the conference in 1991. Little did I know I was a witness to history to come when I asked Swofford why a conference composed of top-level institutions of higher learning was accepting a former all-female teacher’s college with scant scholastic prestige.

http://www.nationalreview.com/phi-beta-cons/382232/southern-part-hell-bernie-reeves

blueduke59
07-09-2014, 10:12 PM
Devon Ramsay may need a food taster: https://twitter.com/ABC11_WTVD/status/486948920832950272

Feds may need to create a witness protection program exclusively for "Tar Heels gone rouge"

Henderson
07-09-2014, 10:23 PM
Some of you might remember that, in the now-closed "McCants Points the Finger" thread, someone noticed UNC-CH had stopped making available its Dean's List and Graduate lists for 2002-2010 on the website. The links were still there, but struck through, and the links didn't work. Suspicions were raised that UNC-CH was hiding something. You may also recall that I said I'd made a public records request for that info and would report back. I did so on June 17. I've been back and forth with UNC-CH about it in the past weeks, and here's the skinny.

1. First of all, the day after I made the request, the links were no longer lined through on the website, but they still didn't work. Two days later, they were lined through again. According to UNC-CH, those lists were and are still available on the website, even though the links are lined through. I pointed out that the links weren't working, and they came back with the explanation that it apparently was a computer snafu -- the links worked on the UNC-CH computer system, but not for outside computers. [Seemed odd to me, since the web is the web, but I'm not a tech guy]. They didn't explain why the links were lined through, unlined, then lined through again. But because of the "technical difficulties" in accessing the web lists, they said they'd send the docs to me.

2. Eventually, they sent me two Excel spread sheets -- one with Dean's List students, and the other with graduates. I don't know what use they are, but if someone wants to see them, I'll email the documents and my correspondence with UNC-CH if you send me a PM with an email address. I skipped through them briefly looking for b-ball players, but apparently a lot of players opt out of making their directory information available under FERPA.

3. The people at UNC-CH were pretty helpful, timely, and courteous about the whole thing. I didn't get any sense that they were dragging feet or trying not to comply with the NC Public Records Law. I made the request on 6/17, and after some back and forth, they sent the docs on 7/3.

Kedsy
07-09-2014, 11:30 PM
"Tar Heels gone rouge"

A special group of Chapel Hill residents who use way too much makeup?

FerryFor50
07-09-2014, 11:43 PM
Some of you might remember that, in the now-closed "McCants Points the Finger" thread, someone noticed UNC-CH had stopped making available its Dean's List and Graduate lists for 2002-2010 on the website. The links were still there, but struck through, and the links didn't work. Suspicions were raised that UNC-CH was hiding something. You may also recall that I said I'd made a public records request for that info and would report back. I did so on June 17. I've been back and forth with UNC-CH about it in the past weeks, and here's the skinny.

1. First of all, the day after I made the request, the links were no longer lined through on the website, but they still didn't work. Two days later, they were lined through again. According to UNC-CH, those lists were and are still available on the website, even though the links are lined through. I pointed out that the links weren't working, and they came back with the explanation that it apparently was a computer snafu -- the links worked on the UNC-CH computer system, but not for outside computers. [Seemed odd to me, since the web is the web, but I'm not a tech guy]. They didn't explain why the links were lined through, unlined, then lined through again. But because of the "technical difficulties" in accessing the web lists, they said they'd send the docs to me.

2. Eventually, they sent me two Excel spread sheets -- one with Dean's List students, and the other with graduates. I don't know what use they are, but if someone wants to see them, I'll email the documents and my correspondence with UNC-CH if you send me a PM with an email address. I skipped through them briefly looking for b-ball players, but apparently a lot of players opt out of making their directory information available under FERPA.

3. The people at UNC-CH were pretty helpful, timely, and courteous about the whole thing. I didn't get any sense that they were dragging feet or trying not to comply with the NC Public Records Law. I made the request on 6/17, and after some back and forth, they sent the docs on 7/3.

Nothing on the internet is ever deleted...

Thanks to the "Wayback Machine," it gets archived.

https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://er.unc.edu/si/newsservicecan.html

Unfortunately, it doesn't archive databases. So trying to run a query bombs. So no way to tell for certain if the Excel sheet you got is legit or not.

BigWayne
07-10-2014, 12:42 AM
In case you swallowed some drain cleaner or something and need to induce vomiting, have a look at Chansky's latest.

http://chapelboro.com/columns/sports-notebook/arts-angle-imagined-conversations/

Dr. Rosenrosen
07-10-2014, 06:14 AM
In case you swallowed some drain cleaner or something and need to induce vomiting, have a look at Chansky's latest.

http://chapelboro.com/columns/sports-notebook/arts-angle-imagined-conversations/
Don't click thru. It's pandering garbage.

BD80
07-10-2014, 06:40 AM
... Chansky's latest.

...


... It's pandering garbage.

To paraphrase Confucius: "That's redumbnant"

oldnavy
07-10-2014, 07:22 AM
Typical UNC response. Claims no wrong doing whatsoever, in fact just the opposite. Claims that anything that was done was done for the "kids", to help them. I get the feeling Chansky thinks UNC should get an award rather than sanctions.

Basically Chansky weaves a story of how he "believes" the conversations with the NCAA will go. He feels that once the NCAA just talks to the folks involved, all will be set straight.

He may be right, but if all the NCAA is going to do is take statements from the UNC staff and players then what is the point of them coming back?

One would hope that the NCAA will actually look at things and do an "investigation"... if they do, then I believe UNC's situation will be a bit more bleak than AC's "dream".

Oh, and of course he has the obligatory reference to LT's jewel "scandal" and how that was ignored by the NCAA.

CameronBornAndBred
07-10-2014, 08:19 AM
Basically Chansky weaves a story of how he "believes" the conversations with the NCAA will go.


This is what I imagine of the various conversations between Federal prosecutor Ken Wainstein and Julius Nyang’oro, Deborah Crowder and Wayne Walden, and how they will go with the NCAA....
And I am not quoting here, just paraphrasing an imagined conversation:...
If Wainstein’s staff tracked down Walden, the former academic advisor to the Kansas and Carolina basketball teams under Roy Williams, those conversations were likely longer...
So, if those conversations went anywhere close to my supposition...
At least, that’s what I imagine.


That is pure comedy.

Jarhead
07-10-2014, 10:36 AM
Anybody notice that the NCAA's Emmert testified before a Senate Commerce Committee (http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/college/2014/07/09/senate-commerce-committee-ncaa-mark-emmert/12409685/) today. I wish the committee had at least asked about the UNC situation, but they sure had plenty on other issues. Emmert has his hands full.

BD80
07-12-2014, 04:37 PM
After publishing a fluff piece quoting unc apologists, like former players of Deano and friends of ol' roy, opining that ol' roy just wouldn't have allowed the kind of cheating McCants alleges ...

Pat Forde gives voice to the side of justice and right, UNC History prof Jay Smith:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/unc-professor-blasts-university-and-its-athletic-heroes-in-defense-of-rashad-mccants-164401647.html

"I'm struck by the profiles of those attacking Rashad McCants," Smith wrote in his email to me. "On the one hand, you have old-timers spouting off about their experiences in the 1960s, '70s or early '80s. These people haven't seen the inside of an academic support program in years, even decades. They don't have a clue what the program was like in 2005. ...

"On the other hand, you have more current players willfully deceiving gullible journalists – while carefully guarding their transcripts – because they don't want to face reality and deal with the shame that the 'Carolina way' was no more than an illusion during their playing days. Antawn Jamison [who played at North Carolina from 1995-98] has the audacity to call McCants a clown? Someone needs to remind Jamison that [UNC-sanctioned special investigator] Ken Wainstein is actually looking at transcripts. Wainstein knows. And he's going to be issuing a report. ...

Smith believes that instead of the backlash on McCants, more attention should be paid to coach Roy Williams and his staff. In particular, Williams' longtime academic counselor, ... "When Roy Williams came here from Kansas, he brought with him the team academic counselor who had served him so well at Kansas: Wayne Walden," Smith wrote. "He regarded Walden as such a vital contributor to the good fortunes of his teams that he was practically moved to tears when Walden departed in 2009. Walden knew every detail about the academic lives of those players; he had to. He registered them for their courses, for crying out loud. [And that means he got on the phone with the Department of African and Afro-American Studies and he put them in paper classes.] Walden also spoke with Williams every day; he had to. Williams' claim that he had no earthly idea that his players were floating along on paper classes – and that he never would have guessed that one of his stars was enrolled in four no-show classes in the spring of 2005 – is nothing more than a confidence trick. He's counting on the customary journalistic favoritism, and journalists' amazing lack of curiosity, to enable him to tell this whopper and walk away with his aura intact. We'll see if that works."

ncexnyc
07-12-2014, 04:45 PM
After publishing a fluff piece quoting unc apologists, like former players of Deano and friends of ol' roy, opining that ol' roy just wouldn't have allowed the kind of cheating McCants alleges ...

Pat Forde gives voice to the side of justice and right, UNC History prof Jay Smith:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/unc-professor-blasts-university-and-its-athletic-heroes-in-defense-of-rashad-mccants-164401647.html

"I'm struck by the profiles of those attacking Rashad McCants," Smith wrote in his email to me. "On the one hand, you have old-timers spouting off about their experiences in the 1960s, '70s or early '80s. These people haven't seen the inside of an academic support program in years, even decades. They don't have a clue what the program was like in 2005. ...

"On the other hand, you have more current players willfully deceiving gullible journalists – while carefully guarding their transcripts – because they don't want to face reality and deal with the shame that the 'Carolina way' was no more than an illusion during their playing days. Antawn Jamison [who played at North Carolina from 1995-98] has the audacity to call McCants a clown? Someone needs to remind Jamison that [UNC-sanctioned special investigator] Ken Wainstein is actually looking at transcripts. Wainstein knows. And he's going to be issuing a report. ...

Smith believes that instead of the backlash on McCants, more attention should be paid to coach Roy Williams and his staff. In particular, Williams' longtime academic counselor, ... "When Roy Williams came here from Kansas, he brought with him the team academic counselor who had served him so well at Kansas: Wayne Walden," Smith wrote. "He regarded Walden as such a vital contributor to the good fortunes of his teams that he was practically moved to tears when Walden departed in 2009. Walden knew every detail about the academic lives of those players; he had to. He registered them for their courses, for crying out loud. [And that means he got on the phone with the Department of African and Afro-American Studies and he put them in paper classes.] Walden also spoke with Williams every day; he had to. Williams' claim that he had no earthly idea that his players were floating along on paper classes – and that he never would have guessed that one of his stars was enrolled in four no-show classes in the spring of 2005 – is nothing more than a confidence trick. He's counting on the customary journalistic favoritism, and journalists' amazing lack of curiosity, to enable him to tell this whopper and walk away with his aura intact. We'll see if that works."

Jay didn't hold anything back. He unloaded both barrels, one on Antawn and the other on Ol' Roy. As I've said a couple of times before, it doesn't matter if McCants marches to a different tune, or whether he's riding the crazy train. His transcript has never been questioned nor disproved, unfortunately the local media has been extremely willing to let the character assassination of McCants go unchecked, as they offered themselves as a forum for UNC to get their message out.

blueduke59
07-13-2014, 09:52 PM
https://twitter.com/ACCRecruitingXP


John Broward @ACCRecruitingXP · 10h
Wayne Walden finally being mentioned by the National press. Still no interview from the mystery man now in seclusion in Texas. #Whereswayne

John Broward @ACCRecruitingXP · 11h
Dexter Strickland has multiple traffic violations in the car of semi-pro basketball player /agent affiliate Rashaan Barner while at UNC.

John Broward @ACCRecruitingXP · 12h
A simple traffic violation search has revealed numerous violations involving impermissible benefits (vehicles) for UNC basketball players.

John Broward @ACCRecruitingXP · 12h
More UNC NCAA violations involving Dexter Strickland, Danny Green,Hairston, John Henson, &Leslie McDonald to be revealed this week. @NCAA

CameronBornAndBred
07-13-2014, 10:03 PM
https://twitter.com/ACCRecruitingXP
Along with encouraging their players to attend a real class now and then, UNC also might want to suggest a few days in traffic school.

P.S., who is John Broward?

OldPhiKap
07-13-2014, 10:04 PM
https://twitter.com/ACCRecruitingXP

Any word on the reliability (or not) of John Broward? As y'all know, I'm kind of a "check the source" guy before getting too worked up.

BUT if true, then boom goes the dynamite.


Edit: checked the link. Looks like a State fan with his heart in the right place but may not gave any inside info. Nice link to a photo of Massi's wife though.

blueduke59
07-13-2014, 10:12 PM
The clergy weighs in.....http://feminismandreligion.com/2013/04/30/feminism-and-football-by-marcia-w-mount-shoop/

Marcia Mount Shoop is a theologian and Presbyterian Minister who lives in Chapel Hill, NC

OldPhiKap
07-13-2014, 10:20 PM
The clergy weighs in.....http://feminismandreligion.com/2013/04/30/feminism-and-football-by-marcia-w-mount-shoop/

Marcia Mount Shoop is a theologian and Presbyterian Minister who lives in Chapel Hill, NC

No offense, but that article is insane. And I WANT to see Carolina get thumped.

I would detail more, but it would definitely pull me to PPB material.

Don't mean to rain on the parade, again I want to see the lying cheating bastages taken down. But, I have a degree in political science. Doesn't qualify me to be President. Just sayin'.

diveonthefloor
07-13-2014, 10:54 PM
The clergy weighs in.....http://feminismandreligion.com/2013/04/30/feminism-and-football-by-marcia-w-mount-shoop/

Marcia Mount Shoop is a theologian and Presbyterian Minister who lives in Chapel Hill, NC

Maybe Marcia should've minored in philosphy and logic. This essay is so full of holes that Swiss cheese would be jealous.

devil84
07-14-2014, 08:39 AM
The clergy weighs in.....http://feminismandreligion.com/2013/04/30/feminism-and-football-by-marcia-w-mount-shoop/

Marcia Mount Shoop is a theologian and Presbyterian Minister who lives in Chapel Hill, NC

And she's an assistant football coach's wife.

I read the article and while there are a few good points, there are issues with her facts and logic (a discussion of which will end up in PPB territory). The article is from 4/30/2013, and lots of information has come to light in the last 15 months. The article may have made more sense at the time, but not so much with what we know now.

Not sure it's worth giving clicks to as it's not as current as it once was.

moonpie23
07-14-2014, 04:05 PM
twitter verse and other places (http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=78&f=1410&t=12987696) abuzz with predictions of even more stuff coming out soon with regard to impermissible benefits

CameronBornAndBred
07-14-2014, 05:28 PM
twitter verse and other places (http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=78&f=1410&t=12987696) abuzz with predictions of even more stuff coming out soon with regard to impermissible benefits
Those seem to be coming from the same Broward guy that is mentioned above, whoever he is. Twitterverse is rumorverse; so until anyone official says anything (or anyone with a name that is actually recognizable), I'll simply enjoy the side effect of a few Heels sweating a bit more than usual. (Which is really hard, they are in Hell, after all.)

SilkyJ
07-14-2014, 06:08 PM
Those seem to be coming from the same Broward guy that is mentioned above, whoever he is. Twitterverse is rumorverse; so until anyone official says anything (or anyone with a name that is actually recognizable), I'll simply enjoy the side effect of a few Heels sweating a bit more than usual. (Which is really hard, they are in Hell, after all.)

We'll see what comes to light from this, but I'm wondering how impermissible benefits stuff is coming up now. Weren't we onto the academics issue? And didn't the NCAA close the book on that impermissible stuff when they ruled PJ ineligible? And wouldn't the wolfies have done these easy traffic violation searches last summer when all the PJ stuff was happening?

I get the NCAA is coming back to town, but that's not until the fall, so where is this coming from? Just seems like weird timing...

OldPhiKap
07-14-2014, 07:12 PM
We'll see what comes to light from this, but I'm wondering how impermissible benefits stuff is coming up now. Weren't we onto the academics issue? And didn't the NCAA close the book on that impermissible stuff when they ruled PJ ineligible? And wouldn't the wolfies have done these easy traffic violation searches last summer when all the PJ stuff was happening?

I get the NCAA is coming back to town, but that's not until the fall, so where is this coming from? Just seems like weird timing...

Agreed, which is why I think that all of this is coming from one or two determined -- but fact-deficient -- sources.

Happy to be proved wrong, but it is hard to believe IMO.

Dukehky
07-14-2014, 10:28 PM
I just bought a new pair of Jordans. They were on sale, but I'm doing my best to support the Carolina Way!!!!


Note: All the new Nike basketball shoes, look like a a parrot got caught in a trash compactor and then dumped onto white shoes. That's how ugly their color schemes are these days.

Anyway, booooo Carolina.

Dr. Rosenrosen
07-15-2014, 07:02 AM
Agreed, which is why I think that all of this is coming from one or two determined -- but fact-deficient -- sources.

Happy to be proved wrong, but it is hard to believe IMO.
I don't know. If there is anything those wolfies are not, it's fact-deficient. They've proven that over and over again. I'd say it's UNC and the NCAA that are investigatively-deficient. Or maybe that's ethically- and spinally-deficient.

BD80
07-15-2014, 07:06 AM
... I'd say it's UNC and the NCAA that are ... spinally-deficient.

Which could explain how they were able to lodge their crania so far up their recta

moonpie23
07-15-2014, 07:47 AM
FYI, rectal-crainial inversions were first discovered in sports fan bases during the mid 60's in Clemson SC.

BD80
07-15-2014, 08:30 AM
FYI, rectal-crainial inversions were first discovered in sports fan bases during the mid 60's in Clemson SC.

Actually, some translations of Herodotus suggest similar descriptions of supporters of competing Olympians.

There is also anecdotal evidence that Caligula regularly commanded such inversions, often with the forcible assistance of legionnaires, but it is doubtful that it was in the context of fanbase rooting.

Duvall
07-15-2014, 08:47 AM
I don't know. If there is anything those wolfies are not, it's fact-deficient. They've proven that over and over again.

Yes, they've accurately predicted twelve of the last four UNC scandals.

Henderson
07-15-2014, 09:44 AM
Actually, some translations of Herodotus suggest similar descriptions of supporters of competing Olympians.

There is also anecdotal evidence that Caligula regularly commanded such inversions, often with the forcible assistance of legionnaires, but it is doubtful that it was in the context of fanbase rooting.

Are you sure it was Caligula and not this guy?

4238

Dr. Rosenrosen
07-15-2014, 11:31 AM
Yes, they've accurately predicted twelve of the last four UNC scandals.
They are a zealous bunch, aren't they?

Jarhead
07-15-2014, 11:58 AM
They are a zealous bunch, aren't they?Yeah, that's right now how do we give sporks to them?http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/wizard.gif

SilkyJ
07-15-2014, 03:43 PM
Actually, some translations of Herodotus suggest similar descriptions of supporters of competing Olympians.

There is also anecdotal evidence that Caligula regularly commanded such inversions, often with the forcible assistance of legionnaires, but it is doubtful that it was in the context of fanbase rooting.


FYI, rectal-crainial inversions were first discovered in sports fan bases during the mid 60's in Clemson SC.


Which could explain how they were able to lodge their crania so far up their recta


Yes, they've accurately predicted twelve of the last four UNC scandals.

Guys, stop it. My keyboard can only take so much backwashed coke zero.

This is why I come to DBR. I'd love to know what IC members think when they read a battery of posts like this..."The I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. board seems to have gotten way off topic, I think they've become a sports medicine board, which is funny b/c our med school is way better!"

BigWayne
07-16-2014, 07:33 PM
WRAL is holding a purported live townhall program tomorrow with the ADs from Duke, UNC, NCSU, and NCCU. They are asking for questions to be submitted to a hashtag. The wuffies are having a field day but I am guessing WRAL will censor them out.

https://twitter.com/hashtag/fantownhall

Henderson
07-16-2014, 08:15 PM
WRAL is holding a purported live townhall program tomorrow with the ADs from Duke, UNC, NCSU, and NCCU. They are asking for questions to be submitted to a hashtag. The wuffies are having a field day but I am guessing WRAL will censor them out.

https://twitter.com/hashtag/fantownhall

Maybe someone can help me understand what's "live" about a "town hall" if the questions are screened in advance rather than posed by members of the town in the hall. I guess that just means they have "Applause" signs instead of a laugh track? How is it different from a straight up taped interview where the journalists ask prepared questions?

BigWayne
07-16-2014, 09:02 PM
Maybe someone can help me understand what's "live" about a "town hall" if the questions are screened in advance rather than posed by members of the town in the hall. I guess that just means they have "Applause" signs instead of a laugh track? How is it different from a straight up taped interview where the journalists ask prepared questions?

I am very interested to see how it pans out. Anyone can see the questions being thrown in the hopper on the internet, the vast majority of which are about the UNC scandal. My guess is that the pressure will be on in the morning for the UNC PR people to fill up the hopper with some softball questions.

CameronBornAndBred
07-18-2014, 01:02 PM
https://twitter.com/ACCRecruitingXP

John Broward @ACCRecruitingXP · 12h
More UNC NCAA violations involving Dexter Strickland, Danny Green,Hairston, John Henson, &Leslie McDonald to be revealed this week. @NCAA


I'm still waiting!!!! Whoever John Broward is, he's since deleted his prognostications. How shocking. :rolleyes: All 249 of his followers must be very disappointed.

blueduke59
07-18-2014, 04:18 PM
I'm still waiting!!!! Whoever John Broward is, he's since deleted his prognostications. How shocking. :rolleyes: All 249 of his followers must be very disappointed.

If it's actual NCAA sanctions, won't thatl be up to UNC to announce them? They probably won't do that until an appeal is filed and processed. So the lack of an announcement doesn't mean a lot.

But if they WERE going to announce it, it would be late on a Friday afternoon which is become UNC's MO..... the patented Friday 5pm info dump

CameronBornAndBred
07-18-2014, 05:19 PM
If it's actual NCAA sanctions, won't thatl be up to UNC to announce them? They probably won't do that until an appeal is filed and processed. So the lack of an announcement doesn't mean a lot.

But if they WERE going to announce it, it would be late on a Friday afternoon which is become UNC's MO..... the patented Friday 5pm info dump
Don't hold your breath. 99.9% of the time some guy that you have never heard of says something is going to happen, he's full of it. (5pm is a good time to sip this beer I'm holding, though. :cool:)

ncexnyc
07-22-2014, 07:39 PM
Don't hold your breath. 99.9% of the time some guy that you have never heard of says something is going to happen, he's full of it. (5pm is a good time to sip this beer I'm holding, though. :cool:)
While that may be true, we've had a Manalishi siting on Pack Pride today and whoever that individual is, they've been money in the back.

Tappan Zee Devil
07-22-2014, 10:40 PM
While that may be true, we've had a Manalishi siting on Pack Pride today and whoever that individual is, they've been money in the back.

money in the back can be embarrassing, particularly if you are confronted with "stop and frisk" in NYC. Money in the bank is good (or so I have always been taught). :)

MulletMan
07-23-2014, 09:55 AM
While that may be true, we've had a Manalishi siting on Pack Pride today and whoever that individual is, they've been money in the back.

And the Manalishi said.....?

Duvall
07-23-2014, 10:17 AM
And the Manalishi said.....?


Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.

Wait, no - that was Yoda. Manalishi:


Everybody just relax.
There is still plenty going on in the background, and some of it the media will not be touching for quite awhile.
Q: What is the biggest risk of owning an exotic animal?... Some in CH are finding that out.

Skitzle
07-23-2014, 10:36 AM
Everybody just relax.
There is still plenty going on in the background, and some of it the media will not be touching for quite awhile.
Q: What is the biggest risk of owning an exotic animal?... Some in CH are finding that out.

Heard about that. In 2011-2012 they went to McDonald's farm found a Bullock-ed in the Barnes. The NCAA Marshall came having additionally heard about some chicken's children, you know... Hensons, locked in the Zeller. Tried to get a look down there but the lightbulb didn't have enough Watts. Left saying it was Mcadoo about nothing.

lotusland
07-23-2014, 11:52 AM
Wait, no - that was Yoda. Manalishi:

Clearly Roy has a pet anaconda with whom he speaks in parsel-tongue. Always knew Roy was a Slitherin!

ncexnyc
07-23-2014, 04:18 PM
There's an old saying in the military, "Lead, follow, or get out of the way." Manalishi and a couple of others over at Pack Pride have been doing a lot of the ground work that has led to us having some good laughs at UNC's expense.

If you don't have anything worthwhile to add to this topic except for some smart aleck comments then do us a favor and stay out of this thread.

BD80
07-23-2014, 04:31 PM
...

If you don't have anything worthwhile to add to this topic except for some smart aleck comments then do us a favor and stay out of this thread.

That'll greatly reduce the number of my contributions ...

Wait, I guess it didn't

lotusland
07-23-2014, 04:38 PM
That'll greatly reduce the number of my contributions ...

Wait, I guess it didn't

Can we take a vote? Smart alek comments are the best thing about this thread imo.

sagegrouse
07-23-2014, 05:40 PM
There's an old saying in the military, "Lead, follow, or get out of the way." Manalishi and a couple of others over at Pack Pride have been doing a lot of the ground work that has led to us having some good laughs at UNC's expense.

If you don't have anything worthwhile to add to this topic except for some smart aleck comments then do us a favor and stay out of this thread.

Can we change your name to "nycexncexnyc?"

Henderson
07-23-2014, 05:55 PM
If you don't have anything worthwhile to add to this topic except for some smart aleck comments then do us a favor and stay out of this thread.


That'll greatly reduce the number of my contributions ...

Wait, I guess it didn't


Can we take a vote? Smart alek comments are the best thing about this thread imo.


Can we change your name to "nycexncexnyc?"

The votes are in. 3-1 in favor of smart alecky comments.

Make that 4-1

uh_no
07-23-2014, 06:10 PM
The votes are in. 3-1 in favor of smart alecky comments.

Make that 4-1

Hey, you managed to count correctly! That's worth at least an 6 AFAM credits

Henderson
07-23-2014, 06:13 PM
Hey, you managed to count correctly! That's worth at least an 6 AFAM credits

Smart alek.

Nosbleuatu
07-23-2014, 09:31 PM
Smart alek.

No, I think he was serious that time.

OldPhiKap
07-23-2014, 09:36 PM
Clearly, smart aleck comments have no place on a thread discussing the slow implosion of the Carolina Way.


Focus, people!



And as for PackPride, which started ncexnyc on this -- I do not think anyone underestimates the work they have done to expose these stories and keep the pressure on them. Kudos. Doesn't mean that we cannot cut up. It's not like that post that was quoted has any substantive disclosures to otherwise discuss. If that guy is someone in the know who has kept the hammer down -- well done to him. (Or her if applicable)

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
07-25-2014, 04:14 PM
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/11261408/north-carolina-tar-heels-inviting-former-athletes-back-complete-degrees

alteran
07-25-2014, 04:21 PM
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/11261408/north-carolina-tar-heels-inviting-former-athletes-back-complete-degrees

Personally, I think this is an unequivocally good thing and kudos to UNC for implementing it.

Even if their inspiration is that they are a bunch of liars trying to avoid culpability for possibly a generation of cheating.

FerryFor50
07-25-2014, 04:35 PM
Personally, I think this is an unequivocally good thing and kudos to UNC for implementing it.

Even if their inspiration is that they are a bunch of liars trying to avoid culpability for possibly a generation of cheating.

Generally isn't that how most good, selfless ideas start? :p

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
07-25-2014, 04:44 PM
Personally, I think this is an unequivocally good thing and kudos to UNC for implementing it.

Even if their inspiration is that they are a bunch of liars trying to avoid culpability for possibly a generation of cheating.

Yeah, I debated coming up with a snarky comment for it, but decided against it.

4Gen
07-25-2014, 05:40 PM
Handing out As in phantom classes. Changing grades. Requiring one paragraph term papers in independent study courses. Frankly, I don't see how Carolina can do much more to graduate its athletes.

BD80
07-25-2014, 06:26 PM
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/11261408/north-carolina-tar-heels-inviting-former-athletes-back-complete-degrees

"North Carolina is inviting former scholarship athletes who left before completing coursework to return and earn their degrees"

So many issues:

How will they contact the fb & bb players that can't read?

"Earn" a degree. Chortle. Not many are coming back for that. Depending on whether we are using the dictionary definition or the unc definition of "earn."

Will they still get free cars from Fats if they come back?

Henderson
07-25-2014, 06:58 PM
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/11261408/north-carolina-tar-heels-inviting-former-athletes-back-complete-degrees

Ironically, only students who were in good academic standing when they left will be eligible. So if you took phantom classes and were coasting through as a result, you get to come back and complete whatever it was you were doing. If you were taking real classes and started slipping right before you left, you don't.

lotusland
07-25-2014, 08:10 PM
Handing out As in phantom classes. Changing grades. Requiring one paragraph term papers in independent study courses. Frankly, I don't see how Carolina can do much more to graduate its athletes.

why not just mail them a diploma from the society of E Pluribus Unum like the one the wizard gave the scarecrow in lieu of a brain?

blueduke59
07-25-2014, 09:41 PM
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/11261408/north-carolina-tar-heels-inviting-former-athletes-back-complete-degrees

Isn't UNC's claim that regular students also took the phantom courses? Are they eligible to "come back" too? If not why not?

Nosbleuatu
07-25-2014, 09:46 PM
Isn't UNC's claim that regular students also took the phantom courses? Are they eligible to "come back" too? If not why not?

This isn't tied to the academic scandal though, right? At least not directly. It might be a bit of good PR, trying to support the "scholarship for life" idea that's been floating around.

BD80
07-25-2014, 10:27 PM
... It might be a bit of good PR, trying to support the "scholarship for life" idea that's been floating around.

Low cost too. Since unc "student" - athletes aren't required to actually attend a class, unc wouldn't have to hire professors for the classes the "students" aren't attending.

I guess they would have to hire some tutors who can write at a 5th grade level to write the papers for the returning students.

The diplomas could be printed on 2-ply perforated paper by the roll.

oldnavy
07-26-2014, 06:11 AM
Personally, I think this is an unequivocally good thing and kudos to UNC for implementing it.

Even if their inspiration is that they are a bunch of liars trying to avoid culpability for possibly a generation of cheating.


Ok, but the cynic in me thinks that this will not do much for the problem. Now if you are inclined to take the easy road as a "student", you have a built in safety net.

I don't think the idea is necessarily a bad one, but I would like to see some limits put on it in terms of how many semesters you will get in order to complete the school work, say a total of 24 including the time you were playing.

MarkD83
07-26-2014, 07:54 AM
Personally, I think this is an unequivocally good thing and kudos to UNC for implementing it.

Even if their inspiration is that they are a bunch of liars trying to avoid culpability for possibly a generation of cheating.

I agree as well that this is a good thing. In addition it is a step in the direction of admitting the athletes have added something to the university experience for everyone and like other "employees" they should have their tuition waived.

blueduke59
07-26-2014, 11:55 AM
http://www.heraldsun.com/opinion/x1992158787/Complete-Carolina-an-incomplete-solution

Agree with this

sagegrouse
07-26-2014, 05:50 PM
http://www.heraldsun.com/opinion/x1992158787/Complete-Carolina-an-incomplete-solution

Agree with this

Money quote


How does this program translate for the non-athletic members of the student body? Do they view it as athletes getting special treatment for which more coordination-challenged members of the student body are not eligible? And is there any concern about providing this support for athletes but not for the students who are there just to focus on academics?

bob blue devil
07-26-2014, 06:47 PM
http://www.heraldsun.com/opinion/x1992158787/Complete-Carolina-an-incomplete-solution


i think this article is a bit misguided; at the very least i don't find a whole lot to object to in the Complete Carolina program. first, athletes get plenty of special treatment - this is not going to change how the rest of the student body views them one bit. but, more importantly, there is plenty of scholarship money out there supporting some narrow special interest. supporting students who would like to complete their degree, and who had left school in good standing to pursue an opportunity that can't/would be risky to delay (and, coincidentally, tends to generate a lot of positive publicity for the school in the interim) seems like a pretty worthy cause to me. if a duke student-athlete didn't complete a degree to pursue their dream and continued to be, or even enhanced their ability to be, a great representative for the university later in life, why wouldn't the university do what it can to get them back to complete their degree?

MulletMan
07-29-2014, 09:08 AM
i think this article is a bit misguided; at the very least i don't find a whole lot to object to in the Complete Carolina program. first, athletes get plenty of special treatment - this is not going to change how the rest of the student body views them one bit. but, more importantly, there is plenty of scholarship money out there supporting some narrow special interest. supporting students who would like to complete their degree, and who had left school in good standing to pursue an opportunity that can't/would be risky to delay (and, coincidentally, tends to generate a lot of positive publicity for the school in the interim) seems like a pretty worthy cause to me. if a duke student-athlete didn't complete a degree to pursue their dream and continued to be, or even enhanced their ability to be, a great representative for the university later in life, why wouldn't the university do what it can to get them back to complete their degree?

So you're saying that if a 19 year old athlete makes the decision to leave school to follow an athletice dream, even if that is a fool-hardy choice (see: Joe Forte, Will Avery, etc. etc.), then they are more entitled to receive financial and academic assistance than say a non-athlete who left school to attempt to make a fortune bar tending or who felt like 19 was the perfect age to travel the world for several years? One of these students is more entitled to get help in completing their college degree?

You would prefer Will Avery get tuition assistance over a Duke undergrad who dropped out to participate in a start-up venture but then realized, after said start-up failed (as most do), that she really should have completed her Duke degree?

C'mon. The world doesn't revolve around sports, and the idea that the only thing that generates positive pub for Duke (or UNC for that matter) is sports success is making me ill. The fact is that Complete Carolina is simply a pandering gesture to appease the masses and give UNC apologists something to point to while the administration continues to ignore the facts. If the AfAm scandal wasn't about athletes, then why is Complete Carolina only about athletes? If non-athletes took all these sham courses, then why aren't they being invited back to complete their degrees? What about non-athletes that majored in AfAm (were there any)? Are they being invited back for a "Complete" education? For those AfAm majors who legitimately completed their degrees, what reciprocity are they being offered now that letters after their names are met with ridicule?

Complete Carolina is a Complete Joke.

devil84
07-29-2014, 02:18 PM
So you're saying that if a 19 year old athlete makes the decision to leave school to follow an athletice dream, even if that is a fool-hardy choice (see: Joe Forte, Will Avery, etc. etc.), then they are more entitled to receive financial and academic assistance than say a non-athlete who left school to attempt to make a fortune bar tending or who felt like 19 was the perfect age to travel the world for several years? One of these students is more entitled to get help in completing their college degree?

You would prefer Will Avery get tuition assistance over a Duke undergrad who dropped out to participate in a start-up venture but then realized, after said start-up failed (as most do), that she really should have completed her Duke degree?

C'mon. The world doesn't revolve around sports, and the idea that the only thing that generates positive pub for Duke (or UNC for that matter) is sports success is making me ill. The fact is that Complete Carolina is simply a pandering gesture to appease the masses and give UNC apologists something to point to while the administration continues to ignore the facts. If the AfAm scandal wasn't about athletes, then why is Complete Carolina only about athletes? If non-athletes took all these sham courses, then why aren't they being invited back to complete their degrees? What about non-athletes that majored in AfAm (were there any)? Are they being invited back for a "Complete" education? For those AfAm majors who legitimately completed their degrees, what reciprocity are they being offered now that letters after their names are met with ridicule?

Complete Carolina is a Complete Joke.

I think I agree. Why should an athlete who dropped out get more help to complete his/her degree than any other Duke student?

However, if the reason to drop out was to go to the NBA, then I'm guessing that the student in question was the star of the program for a year. Plenty of post-season tickets and jerseys were sold in no small part thanks to that athlete. The Booster Program (not the University as a whole) benefited financially from the student's participation. So I think the Booster Program can pony up at least four years in scholarship money -- the University funds don't need to come into play. What happens to some of the four year academic scholarships if they choose to take a year off? Some (not all) have provisions to take a break, so why not athletic scholarships?

That said, the Carolina Complete is a sham, IMHO. The whole, "we've been doing this all along, we're just formalizing it" is a convenient diversion to the whole mess over there.

As far as the sham AfAm classes, I think that all students, both athletes and non-athletes who took them were offered the ability to retake them at the University's expense, though few -- well, ONE -- has taken them up on it (info here (http://chapelboro.com/news/unc/students-alumni-not-taking-advantage-of-make-up-afam-classes/)). I've seen the same data in other sources (News & Observer), but it's not coming up in a quick Google search. Anyone who hadn't graduated in 2013 and took those sham classes has remedies to either prove that they did the coursework, take a test to prove their knowledge, or take another class. Graduates are in a different situation as transcripts are frozen, but they can come back and take a similar African, African-American, and Diaspora Studies course. No grade will be given, but it will be noted on their transcript. Again, only one alumnus has inquired. In this ONE particular instance, Carolina has done the right thing (that was hard to type!).

bob blue devil
07-29-2014, 03:49 PM
So you're saying that if a 19 year old athlete makes the decision to leave school to follow an athletice dream, even if that is a fool-hardy choice (see: Joe Forte, Will Avery, etc. etc.), then they are more entitled to receive financial and academic assistance than say a non-athlete who left school to attempt to make a fortune bar tending or who felt like 19 was the perfect age to travel the world for several years? One of these students is more entitled to get help in completing their college degree?

That is not what I said, but I'll play along. "More entitled" (although that seems to be a bit of a misuse of "entitled" to begin with) is a fuzzy concept. Are people from sub Saharan Africa, people from the Carolinas, and scholarship, but non-revenue, athletes more deserving of scholarship money than others? Well, they get it at Duke, either way.

Rightly or wrongly, schools do need to look out for their own interests. One of those interests is having the positive brand impact of high profile/successful alums. So, finding ways to strengthen ties with these people (e.g. helping them graduate) is a good thing for the school regardless of whether these individuals are more deserving.

And of course, this whole line of thinking misses the fact that this is more about getting the kids you want in the door to begin with, rather than what happens in the event they leave early. UNC can now tell the parents of kids it wants to attend its school that they have a better package to offer than others.


You would prefer Will Avery get tuition assistance over a Duke undergrad who dropped out to participate in a start-up venture but then realized, after said start-up failed (as most do), that she really should have completed her Duke degree?

Simply put, I'd rather Duke do what is best for Duke. To your narrow example, I don't believe Avery left the school in good standing, but you seem confident otherwise - are you? Frankly, I think it would make sense to extend this idea to lots of scholarships - it would appeal most to the most ambitious students. These are the ones we should want in the Duke network. Meanwhile, I doubt it would cost the school a whole lot (although I suppose that would require a proper study).



C'mon. The world doesn't revolve around sports, and the idea that the only thing that generates positive pub for Duke (or UNC for that matter) is sports success is making me ill.


Your straw man skills are strong! So because sports is not the only thing to generate good publicity, we should discount that value completely? That's a pretty naive perspective. Given this is a Duke sports website, it's pretty ironic too.



The fact is that Complete Carolina is simply a pandering gesture to appease the masses and give UNC apologists something to point to while the administration continues to ignore the facts. If the AfAm scandal wasn't about athletes, then why is Complete Carolina only about athletes? If non-athletes took all these sham courses, then why aren't they being invited back to complete their degrees? What about non-athletes that majored in AfAm (were there any)? Are they being invited back for a "Complete" education? For those AfAm majors who legitimately completed their degrees, what reciprocity are they being offered now that letters after their names are met with ridicule?

Complete Carolina is a Complete Joke.

Okay, this part has nothing to do with my post, thankfully. I agree Complete dUNCe is part of a PR scheme, but that doesn't make it a bad idea. Lots of good things come from self interest.

OldPhiKap
07-29-2014, 08:25 PM
I guess I am in the minority. Student athletes make schools lots of money, and they are very public representatives of the school. If a school wants to give something back to the athletes in a permissible way, good for them. And given that these folks are out there representing you, you might as well have it so they can speak with subject/object agreement.

We have had players come back and finish their degrees. Is the objection here just a question of who picks up the tab?

And yes, athletes are already granted access to scholarships that normal students are not. It's capitalism, not an egalitarian utopia.

sagegrouse
07-29-2014, 08:55 PM
So you're saying that if a 19 year old athlete makes the decision to leave school to follow an athletice dream, even if that is a fool-hardy choice (see: Joe Forte, Will Avery, etc. etc.), then they are more entitled to receive financial and academic assistance than say a non-athlete who left school to attempt to make a fortune bar tending or who felt like 19 was the perfect age to travel the world for several years? One of these students is more entitled to get help in completing their college degree?

You would prefer Will Avery get tuition assistance over a Duke undergrad who dropped out to participate in a start-up venture but then realized, after said start-up failed (as most do), that she really should have completed her Duke degree?

C'mon. The world doesn't revolve around sports, and the idea that the only thing that generates positive pub for Duke (or UNC for that matter) is sports success is making me ill. The fact is that Complete Carolina is simply a pandering gesture to appease the masses and give UNC apologists something to point to while the administration continues to ignore the facts. If the AfAm scandal wasn't about athletes, then why is Complete Carolina only about athletes? If non-athletes took all these sham courses, then why aren't they being invited back to complete their degrees? What about non-athletes that majored in AfAm (were there any)? Are they being invited back for a "Complete" education? For those AfAm majors who legitimately completed their degrees, what reciprocity are they being offered now that letters after their names are met with ridicule?

Complete Carolina is a Complete Joke.


This reminds me of the story of two divinity students arguing about whether one can smoke while praying. (Hey, I'm in Colorado -- who knows what fashionable these days in the Divinity Schools?) They agreed to consult two professors and came back with different answers. "I am incredulous," said one, upon learning that his colleague had found out it was OK to smoke during prayers. "What specifically did you ask?" His colleague responded, "I asked if it was all right to pray while smoking."

The Complete Carolina program was announced by the AD. Now, it turns out that the Athletic Department has a budget of $100 million or so (maybe more like $80M). It chooses to spend a small portion on getting athletes who left school to compete their studies and get a degree. Who can object to the UNC Athletic Department putting a trifle more into educating athletes?

blueduke59
07-29-2014, 09:00 PM
Your point is well taken Kap, but in your heart of hearts is UNC doing this "for the kids" or for their own self interest? While "regular" students don't make their school lots of money a large percentage leave school heavily in debt. No one seems to care about them. While I have no data to back this up I say the smart money says more non athletes give back to their school via alumni donations than athletes. IMO UNC is doing this to make themselves look good to those who view them in a more suspicious light than they once did. Some of the twisted tools who have tried in vain to keep their transgressions from the public probably view this as a good recruiting tactic as well

OldPhiKap
07-29-2014, 09:18 PM
Your point is well taken Kap, but in your heart of hearts is UNC doing this "for the kids" or for their own self interest? While "regular" students don't make their school lots of money a large percentage leave school heavily in debt. No one seems to care about them. While I have no data to back this up I say the smart money says more non athletes give back to their school via alumni donations than athletes. IMO UNC is doing this to make themselves look good to those who view them in a more suspicious light than they once did. Some of the twisted tools who have tried in vain to keep their transgressions from the public probably view this as a good recruiting tactic as well

Very good post, bd59, Sporkz your way.

Are they doing it for their own good? I am sure they are. It is still the right thing to do IMO, so glad they're doing it. Carolina can still go to Hell as far as I am concerned though -- different issue.

Again, I respect those who feel differently.

lotusland
07-29-2014, 09:28 PM
Very good post, bd59, Sporkz your way.

Are they doing it for their own good? I am sure they are. It is still the right thing to do IMO, so glad they're doing it. Carolina can still go to Hell as far as I am concerned though -- different issue.

Again, I respect those who feel differently.

Carolina can go to hell as far as I'm concerned too but I can't respect those who feel differently.

blueduke59
07-30-2014, 10:18 PM
some things I'm still not sure about re UNC's "Look at us! We're doing it for the kids!" program......

I assume room and board is offered.

Questions: What if 500 former athletes come back for their degrees? Where would they be housed? For how long? What if they're slow learners and it takes John Belushi Delta House time to obtain a sheepskin in whatever field of endeavor they choose? Does Bluto get to stay until he finally crosses the finish line? What if some decide to take advantage of free room and board for as long as possible

I hope UNC Athletic Dept goes broke taking care of these scholars

Papa John
07-30-2014, 11:00 PM
\What if they're slow learners and it takes John Belushi Delta House time to obtain a sheepskin in whatever field of endeavor they choose? Does Bluto get to stay until he finally crosses the finish line?

[PJ] Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Heck no! 'Cause when the going gets tough... ...the tough gets going! Who's with me? Let's go!

[Runs out of room, alone... Then returns]

[PJ] You guys are pathetic. What happened to the UNC I used to know? Where's the spirit? Where's the guts? Where's the luxury SUV rental with the $500 in Dean Dome parking tickets that can do 0-150 mph on I-85 in the blink of an NC state trooper's strobe? 'Oooh, we're afraid to go with you, PJ, we might get in trouble.' Well, just kiss LMac's $1,500 mouthguard from now on. Not me! I'm not gonna take this...

[Ray Felton, waving a handgun] Yo, yo, listen up... PJ's right. This situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part, and we're just the guys to do it!

cspan37421
08-05-2014, 04:29 PM
Hardly surprising that whistleblowers are subject to intense scrutiny and personal attacks - Mary Willingham has long been subjected to the latter by UNC true believers, but it is the former which could be a mortal blow in the PR war.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/08/04/4050924/unc-critic-accused-of-plagiarism.html?sp=/99/103/

While it would be preferable that a whistleblower have zero skeletons in their closet, and this is a pretty big one for a learning specialist, it actually negates zero of her specific claims about UNC's behavior. It does hurt her credibility, but to the extent that she has evidence to back her claims, this strikes me a bit like the Jose Canseco thing. He was dead-on right, but was dismissed early on and for some time afterwards because ... well, because he wasn't a choirboy himself.

If she doesn't have corroboration for her claims (either documentary or other witnesses) then that may help get UNC off the hook. I expect she has a lot of documentation though ... maybe it'll get cited in a forum that matters.

Duvall
08-05-2014, 04:34 PM
If she doesn't have corroboration for her claims (either documentary or other witnesses) then that may help get UNC off the hook. I expect she has a lot of documentation though ... maybe it'll get cited in a forum that matters.

What documentation would she have that could be released publicly? Emails from the athletic department?

CameronBornAndBred
08-05-2014, 05:12 PM
You can shoot the messenger, but it doesn't do much good unless the message hasn't been delivered yet. Unfortunately for UNC and IC, her message already got to its destination.

FerryFor50
08-05-2014, 05:22 PM
Hardly surprising that whistleblowers are subject to intense scrutiny and personal attacks - Mary Willingham has long been subjected to the latter by UNC true believers, but it is the former which could be a mortal blow in the PR war.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/08/04/4050924/unc-critic-accused-of-plagiarism.html?sp=/99/103/

While it would be preferable that a whistleblower have zero skeletons in their closet, and this is a pretty big one for a learning specialist, it actually negates zero of her specific claims about UNC's behavior. It does hurt her credibility, but to the extent that she has evidence to back her claims, this strikes me a bit like the Jose Canseco thing. He was dead-on right, but was dismissed early on and for some time afterwards because ... well, because he wasn't a choirboy himself.

If she doesn't have corroboration for her claims (either documentary or other witnesses) then that may help get UNC off the hook. I expect she has a lot of documentation though ... maybe it'll get cited in a forum that matters.

The worst thing this does is make Mary Willingham a bit of a hypocrite, but it doesn't really absolve anyone, as you mentioned.

Henderson
08-05-2014, 09:21 PM
So UNC isn't good at vetting people they hire. Not sure how this latest Willingham story helps them.

On a different subject, Adam Rowe tweeted an interesting factoid today: "Crazy to me that UNC hasn't gotten a basketball commitment since May 22nd. Of 2013."

Duvall
08-05-2014, 09:27 PM
So UNC isn't good at vetting people they hire. Not sure how this latest Willingham story helps them.

It lets all of UNC's current and past employees that might have been thinking of speaking out know the potential consequences of crossing the light blue line.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
08-06-2014, 06:03 AM
So UNC isn't good at vetting people they hire. Not sure how this latest Willingham story helps them.

On a different subject, Adam Rowe tweeted an interesting factoid today: "Crazy to me that UNC hasn't gotten a basketball commitment since May 22nd. Of 2013."

Maybe I should have listed "no one wants to play for them" among my list for the optimal UNC season poll...

cspan37421
08-06-2014, 08:49 AM
What documentation would she have that could be released publicly? Emails from the athletic department?

I don't know about publicly. She's embroiled in a lawsuit, right? Perhaps somethings that can't be released now can be released through that process. Perhaps some recorded conversations? In person or telephone (depending on NC law, the latter is doubtful to me). What about voice mail on UNC systems? Emails, sure. Screenshots of before-and-after grade changes? I don't know. I guess the worst thing about the ad hominem attack is that those who are most motivated to believe her charges false will comfortably do so. The alums and UNC faithful will not feel that anything happened, so in their minds, nothing need be changed. Bidness as usual.

Duvall
08-06-2014, 10:03 AM
Maybe I should have listed "no one wants to play for them" among my list for the optimal UNC season poll...

How many players would UNC be looking to recruit this year anyway? They have a deep roster without any real NBA prospects, so it's not like there will be any real rotation openings next season.

Ichabod Drain
08-06-2014, 10:19 AM
How many players would UNC be looking to recruit this year anyway? They have a deep roster without any real NBA prospects, so it's not like there will be any real rotation openings next season.

If UNC has a really good year then I would expect one or two of Brice Johnson, Marcus Paige, and Justin Jackson to also have a really good year and entertain NBA interest at the end of the season.

Aside from that they have offered at least a dozen players. Two of which have committed to Duke :D

BD80
08-06-2014, 10:46 AM
...

On a different subject, Adam Rowe tweeted an interesting factoid today: "Crazy to me that UNC hasn't gotten a basketball commitment since May 22nd. Of 2013."

Duke has only received six commitments in that time ...

OldPhiKap
08-13-2014, 05:14 PM
bttt -- this cannot languish on page three.

I wonder if this will end up like the PJ thing last year -- sorta hang over the team for the first part of the season, not knowing if a shoe is about to drop. I imagine there is no expected timeline, other than "when we're done"

BigWayne
08-13-2014, 08:44 PM
bttt -- this cannot languish on page three.

I wonder if this will end up like the PJ thing last year -- sorta hang over the team for the first part of the season, not knowing if a shoe is about to drop. I imagine there is no expected timeline, other than "when we're done"

FYI - Over the weekend, I talked to a member of the UNC system BOG that is not a UNCCH alum. I can tell you that he is expecting something meaningful out of the Wainstein report and will not be happy with another whitewash report. I said something about the BOG still being controlled by tarheel alumni and he emphatically disagreed. His main focus in describing to me what was going on with the BOG on multiple topics was that things are changing there and the university sites, especially UNCCH, were having to deal with a new way of doing business with the BOG.

One thing in this regard that he mentioned specifically that was very unpopular in Chapel Hill was that they are going to be moving the BOG meetings around the state now. Basically, with few exceptions, all meetings have been held in Chapel Hill in the past, but 3 of the next 7 are scheduled for other UNC campuses: http://www.northcarolina.edu/apps/bog/schedule.php

So of course we need to see what really happens, but I am a little more optimistic that the days of the Tarheels being unaccountable are drawing to a close.

Tappan Zee Devil
08-13-2014, 09:26 PM
FYI - Over the weekend, I talked to a member of the UNC system BOG that is not a UNCCH alum. I can tell you that he is expecting something meaningful out of the Wainstein report and will not be happy with another whitewash report. I said something about the BOG still being controlled by tarheel alumni and he emphatically disagreed. His main focus in describing to me what was going on with the BOG on multiple topics was that things are changing there and the university sites, especially UNCCH, were having to deal with a new way of doing business with the BOG.

One thing in this regard that he mentioned specifically that was very unpopular in Chapel Hill was that they are going to be moving the BOG meetings around the state now. Basically, with few exceptions, all meetings have been held in Chapel Hill in the past, but 3 of the next 7 are scheduled for other UNC campuses: http://www.northcarolina.edu/apps/bog/schedule.php

So of course we need to see what really happens, but I am a little more optimistic that the days of the Tarheels being unaccountable are drawing to a close.

One can hope, but ….

Acymetric
08-13-2014, 09:40 PM
FYI - Over the weekend, I talked to a member of the UNC system BOG that is not a UNCCH alum. I can tell you that he is expecting something meaningful out of the Wainstein report and will not be happy with another whitewash report. I said something about the BOG still being controlled by tarheel alumni and he emphatically disagreed. His main focus in describing to me what was going on with the BOG on multiple topics was that things are changing there and the university sites, especially UNCCH, were having to deal with a new way of doing business with the BOG.

One thing in this regard that he mentioned specifically that was very unpopular in Chapel Hill was that they are going to be moving the BOG meetings around the state now. Basically, with few exceptions, all meetings have been held in Chapel Hill in the past, but 3 of the next 7 are scheduled for other UNC campuses: http://www.northcarolina.edu/apps/bog/schedule.php

So of course we need to see what really happens, but I am a little more optimistic that the days of the Tarheels being unaccountable are drawing to a close.

Might as well hold the meeting at a reputable institution...and were I on the BOG I would be happy to travel to Asheville for a meeting or two.

SmartDevil
08-13-2014, 09:48 PM
FYI ....

....One thing in this regard that he mentioned specifically that was very unpopular in Chapel Hill was that they are going to be moving the BOG meetings around the state now. Basically, with few exceptions, all meetings have been held in Chapel Hill in the past, but 3 of the next 7 are scheduled for other UNC campuses: http://www.northcarolina.edu/apps/bog/schedule.php

So of course we need to see what really happens, but I am a little more optimistic that the days of the Tarheels being unaccountable are drawing to a close.



Within that link above, the minutes for the March meeting, picked at random, show the BOG going into closed session during the meeting (to apparently discuss a nomination). Is this permissible? Anyone here happen to know how sunshine or other NC law addresses this ?? Or, unlikely, if there is any Federal hook which penalizes it by barring funding?

If it is permissible, wonder if they already have and certainly will in the future use this dodge to discuss the UNC corruption secretly.

Henderson
08-13-2014, 10:03 PM
I haven't read NC's statute, but state Open Meetings Laws generally include exceptions for specific matters that may be discussed in "Executive Session" (i.e. without the public present). Sometimes the statute requires the public body to permit reporters to attend an Executive Session on the condition that they do not report on what goes on. Typical matters taken up in Executive Session include personnel matters (including hiring and discipline) and to receive advice from counsel.

77devil
08-21-2014, 07:23 AM
There is a short interview with the Chancellor in Wed WSJ section B Page 6. Headline is "UNC Seeks Course Correction After Scandal." Although there's nothing new, it's always nice to see a major media outlet publicize the scandal. Folt totally dodges the money question of whether it was an academic or athletic fraud.

http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/boss-talk-unc-chapel-hill-seeks-course-correction-amid-probe-1408493270

Faison1
08-21-2014, 09:51 AM
I had the pleasure of sitting between two friends during a late night discussion of UNC's Academic/Athletic Fraud situation. One friend is an NC State Alum, and the other an ardent UNC supporter. After 1.5 hours of drunken debate, we all agreed UNC would probably receive very little punishment, even though everyone in the world knew they were guilty. However, several interesting subjects and trends became apparent to me:

1. UNC fans, when pressed, now say they really don't care that much anymore....and that they don't follow the program as closely

2. UNC fans try to defend their program by saying, "everyone does it....do you think Kentucky is not doing these sorts of things?"

3. UNC fan's kneejerk reaction to a Duke fan bringing up the subject is, "What about Lance Thomas?"

4. If anyone brings up the subject of Tyler Hansbrough taking multiple Swahili classes, you are met with looks of disbelief and sacrilege

5. NC State fans are beyond bitter. It's open season for them. Payback time, baby! If what I witnessed is any indication, I want to stay on the right side of NC State now and in the future.

6. If UNC gets anything less than Title banners taken down, NC State fans will make it their mission in life to never let anyone forget how crooked UNC is.


Much like College Amateurism and the NCAA, The Carolina Way is all but dead. Maybe they can resurrect it in 10-15 years, but for now it is non-existent. My apologies if this has all been covered before, but after having spent a week on the coast of NC hanging out with UNC friends, I found it interesting to hear their point of view, and overall hypocrisy/acceptance of the situation.

Lar77
08-21-2014, 11:40 AM
I had the pleasure of sitting between two friends during a late night discussion of UNC's Academic/Athletic Fraud situation. One friend is an NC State Alum, and the other an ardent UNC supporter. After 1.5 hours of drunken debate, we all agreed UNC would probably receive very little punishment, even though everyone in the world knew they were guilty. However, several interesting subjects and trends became apparent to me:

1. UNC fans, when pressed, now say they really don't care that much anymore....and that they don't follow the program as closely

2. UNC fans try to defend their program by saying, "everyone does it....do you think Kentucky is not doing these sorts of things?"

3. UNC fan's kneejerk reaction to a Duke fan bringing up the subject is, "What about Lance Thomas?"

4. If anyone brings up the subject of Tyler Hansbrough taking multiple Swahili classes, you are met with looks of disbelief and sacrilege

5. NC State fans are beyond bitter. It's open season for them. Payback time, baby! If what I witnessed is any indication, I want to stay on the right side of NC State now and in the future.

6. If UNC gets anything less than Title banners taken down, NC State fans will make it their mission in life to never let anyone forget how crooked UNC is.


Agree with all 6 points. I have heard some UNC alum comment that it may be time for Roy to step down but I think a good basketball season will reverse that.

It will be interesting to see whether the non-affiliated TV broadcasts of UNC football and basketball will mention the Athletic/Academic issues this year. Hard for them not to.

Atlanta Duke
08-21-2014, 12:11 PM
There is a short interview with the Chancellor in Wed WSJ section B Page 6. Headline is "UNC Seeks Course Correction After Scandal." Although there's nothing new, it's always nice to see a major media outlet publicize the scandal. Folt totally dodges the money question of whether it was an academic or athletic fraud.

http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/boss-talk-unc-chapel-hill-seeks-course-correction-amid-probe-1408493270

I suppose it is new that UNC is now the self-proclaimed worldwide leader in providing quality monitoring of its courses

We are doing more, I believe, than anyone now in higher education to make sure our courses are being taught at the quality you want them to be

http://online.wsj.com/articles/boss-talk-unc-chapel-hill-seeks-course-correction-amid-probe-1408493270?KEYWORDS=folt

A compelling mixture of braggadocio and incoherence packed into that sentence :)

arnie
08-21-2014, 12:22 PM
I suppose it is new that UNC is now the self-proclaimed worldwide leader in providing quality monitoring of its courses

We are doing more, I believe, than anyone now in higher education to make sure our courses are being taught at the quality you want them to be



Actually depends on the " you" he's referencing. Fedora liked the past quality of teaching, maybe this admin clown is thinking of the football team+Hansbro, etc.

Henderson
08-21-2014, 02:20 PM
I suppose it is new that UNC is now the self-proclaimed worldwide leader in providing quality monitoring of its courses

We are doing more, I believe, than anyone now in higher education to make sure our courses are being taught at the quality you want them to be

http://online.wsj.com/articles/boss-talk-unc-chapel-hill-seeks-course-correction-amid-probe-1408493270?KEYWORDS=folt

A compelling mixture of braggadocio and incoherence packed into that sentence :)

Two things stood out for me in that interview:

1. Folt seems to be expecting NCAA sanctions. She doesn't want to speculate what they will be. She didn't seem to blink at the suggestion that titles may be forfeited.
2. Hubris. UNC is not just doing as much as it can or even as much as anyone else. They're doing more than anyone else. That's like a drunk waking up at noon and claiming to be the hardest worker on the crew.

Dr. Rosenrosen
08-21-2014, 02:44 PM
Two things stood out for me in that interview:

1. Folt seems to be expecting NCAA sanctions. She doesn't want to speculate what they will be. She didn't seem to blink at the suggestion that titles may be forfeited.
2. Hubris. UNC is not just doing as much as it can or even as much as anyone else. They're doing more than anyone else. That's like a drunk waking up at noon and claiming to be the hardest worker on the crew.
I also find it amazing that she seems to accept there will be additional penalties. But god forbid they proactively root out the problem themselves and take action without the NCAA having to do it for them. Same old same old.

http://usatlife.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/tumblr_m8q9trdfcm1ro8ysbo1_500.gif?w=500&h=212

sagegrouse
08-21-2014, 06:31 PM
Two things stood out for me in that interview:

1. Folt seems to be expecting NCAA sanctions. She doesn't want to speculate what they will be. She didn't seem to blink at the suggestion that titles may be forfeited.
2. Hubris. UNC is not just doing as much as it can or even as much as anyone else. They're doing more than anyone else. That's like a drunk waking up at noon and claiming to be the hardest worker on the crew.

Folt admitted to the smoking gun, saying (in effect) "We were not doing a good job of monitoring the courses being offered to our students." Gee, what else is an academic administration supposed to do? Of course, that happened BEFORE she was hired, so it was easy for her to say, but it is a guilty plea on the national stage.

Dev11
08-21-2014, 06:37 PM
Agree with all 6 points. I have heard some UNC alum comment that it may be time for Roy to step down but I think a good basketball season will reverse that.

It will be interesting to see whether the non-affiliated TV broadcasts of UNC football and basketball will mention the Athletic/Academic issues this year. Hard for them not to.

I bet you'll hear nothing or next to nothing about it. Remember the ESPN sideline reporter who asked Jameis Winston about the rape allegations last year after one of his championship games? She got destroyed for it (can't remember at the moment who it was). The on-air team is there for sports, not for academics, and they will stick to sports.

Duvall
08-21-2014, 06:39 PM
I bet you'll hear nothing or next to nothing about it. Remember the ESPN sideline reporter who asked Jameis Winston about the rape allegations last year after one of his championship games? She got destroyed for it (can't remember at the moment who it was). The on-air team is there for sports, not for academics, and they will stick to sports.

Heather Cox.

Plus, it's UNC. No one wants to hear bad news about UNC, and ESPN gives the public what it wants.

Henderson
08-21-2014, 07:53 PM
No one wants to hear bad news about UNC.

I can think of one or two.

blueduke59
08-21-2014, 07:53 PM
Heather Cox.

Plus, it's UNC. No one wants to hear bad news about UNC, and ESPN gives the public what it wants.

Also gives the prez of ESPN (a UNC grad btw) what he wants as well. What he wants is as little coverage as possible on the UNC scandal

moonpie23
08-21-2014, 11:24 PM
it's UNC. No one wants to hear bad news about UNC,

whoooooaaaaa…..hold on there……you do realize that i'm IN THE ROOM…..

lotusland
08-30-2014, 04:45 PM
http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/08/29/4106256_an-interview-with-unc-ad-bubba.html?rh=1

BC: It's fatiguing. It's been fatiguing for the whole university for, I don't know, probably four years now. So I do think we're hoping to get through it. We have another (investigation) – the Wainstein investigation, report, sometime this fall. So we're hoping that each of these will be elements of our turning point. We've tried to get to the finish a line a number of times and haven't been able to get there successfully, so we're certainly hoping that this will be the one.

Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/08/29/4106256_an-interview-with-unc-ad-bubba.html?rh=1#storylink=cpy

OldPhiKap
08-30-2014, 04:47 PM
http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/08/29/4106256_an-interview-with-unc-ad-bubba.html?rh=1

BC: It's fatiguing. It's been fatiguing for the whole university for, I don't know, probably four years now. So I do think we're hoping to get through it. We have another (investigation) – the Wainstein investigation, report, sometime this fall. So we're hoping that each of these will be elements of our turning point. We've tried to get to the finish a line a number of times and haven't been able to get there successfully, so we're certainly hoping that this will be the one.

Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/08/29/4106256_an-interview-with-unc-ad-bubba.html?rh=1#storylink=cpy

UNC has not,been trying to get to the finish line. They have been trying to convince people that there was no race being run at all.

Go Liberty!

moonpie23
09-15-2014, 07:59 AM
by allowing this thread to fall to page 4, they have won the PR battle.....now, as i've predicted, it will just fade away.....


:(

Skitzle
09-15-2014, 11:58 AM
by allowing this thread to fall to page 4, they have won the PR battle.....now, as i've predicted, it will just fade away.....


:(

This is a small part of a large scandal that NEVER ends. It hasn't faded away for 4 years.

I don't think UNC will disappoint :D

BigWayne
09-15-2014, 01:59 PM
Well there was another article the other day, but it didn't reveal much other than that UNC continues to stonewall.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/09/11/4142629/unc-completes-investigation-of.html

BD80
09-15-2014, 07:18 PM
by allowing this thread to fall to page 4, they have won the PR battle.....now, as i've predicted, it will just fade away.....


:(

No. Now the lingering is like a festering wound. The "Carolina way" cannot be resurrected until a real inquiry has been conducted. Or a least until the pretense of a real inquiry is convincingly presented. Too many specific issues have to be explained for this just swept under the rug. There likely will be no real consequence to any investigation, but until something is resolved unc cannot lay claim to any moral high ground or academic superiority. unc will remain the punch line for the academic cheating jokes, the comparison for each new instance of academic malfeasance by college players.

Much of the baby blue blood has spilled, but it still continues to slowly ooze

wilson
09-17-2014, 01:10 PM
Much of the baby blue blood has spilled, but it still continues to slowly oozeAgreed. I've really enjoyed recent conversations with unc fan friends, wherein I eventually counter their proclamations about whatever athletic or institutional matter with a statement along the lines of, "AND our players go to class!" They used to protest or obfuscate or justify, but now they just sheepishly (pun intended) shrug and the conversation pretty much dies.

BigWayne
09-18-2014, 03:00 PM
Another in the SMH category......

http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2014/9/18/6406661/north-carolina-east-carolina-editorial-cartoon

Response from ECU fans....

4338

BigWayne
09-18-2014, 03:16 PM
Also, a bachelor's degree is required for some reason to qualify for a job checking to see if "designed" student athletes attend class at UNC.

https://uncjobs.northcarolina.edu/applicants/jsp/shared/position/JobDetails_css.jsp?postingId=331116


Classification Title: Class Checker
Working Title: Class Checker
Campus: UNC-Chapel Hill
Region: Piedmont/Triangle
Job Summary:
*THIS IS A CONTINUOUS POSTING. THIS RECRUITMENT WILL REMAIN OPEN UNTIL ALL POSITIONS ARE FILLED. Monitor class attendance for designed student-athletes. Issue daily reports to assigned Supervisor. Good organizational skills, must be reliable, attention to detail, problem-solving skills.

Minimum Qualifications: Bachelor's degree; or equivalent combination of training and experience. All degrees must be received from appropriately accredited institutions. Ability to navigate campus buildings. Must be able to create a system of monitoring class attendance without disrupting classroom activity.

Position Number: S005349
Posting Date: 08/20/2014
Closing Date: 04/30/2015
American Recovery & Reinvestment Act Funded: No