Jason Kidd is kind of an idiot

[FerryFor50]

Kidd tries to take over basketball operations in NJ and usurp Billy King; fails miserably.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/jason-kidd-in-talks-to-run-bucks--basketball-operations-after-failed-power-play-with-nets-072327526.html

What made him think that after such a poor start to the season, the way he treated Lawrence Frank, and a poor showing in the playoffs that he had *any* sort of clout in the organization?

[Newton_14]

Kidd tries to take over basketball operations in NJ and usurp Billy King; fails miserably.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/jason-kidd-in-talks-to-run-bucks--basketball-operations-after-failed-power-play-with-nets-072327526.html

What made him think that after such a poor start to the season, the way he treated Lawrence Frank, and a poor showing in the playoffs that he had *any* sort of clout in the organization?
Yeah this move makes no sense at all. What was he thinking? I;ve seen big ego's before, but this will rank up there amongst the worst of them. LIke you mention, he came close to getting fired early in the season, alienated a great assistant with HC experience, but then salvages it with a moderately good season in the end. You would think next year would be about working on himself as a coach to ensure he improves at his job and gets his team to improve/build upon this season. But nah, i'll just tell them i can do better thank KIng and make them put be in charge of operations and have King become my subordinate. Yeah, right. that would be similar to say, Jon Scheyer going to Coach K now and saying "Hey, it's time to promote me to Associate Head Coach ahead of Capel and Nate, since I did so well this season as rookie assistant not allowed to coach the players on the floor. But I showed enough there to promote me ahead of Capel/Nate".

I would doubt Kidd is around more than another week or so before being shown the door. He better hope the Bucks really do want him. Otherwise he ight have just blackballed himself across the entire league.

[Henderson]

Money quote (emphasis added):

"Kidd is selling Bucks co-owner Marc Lasry on giving him a lucrative package to do what the Nets have refused: Give Kidd full control of basketball operations. For an NBA figure with such a damaged personal reputation – never mind no front-office experience – the possibility of Kidd being afforded this kind of power and responsibility is being met with downright mockery among NBA owners and executives."

[Des Esseintes]

Money quote (emphasis added):

"Kidd is selling Bucks co-owner Marc Lasry on giving him a lucrative package to do what the Nets have refused: Give Kidd full control of basketball operations. For an NBA figure with such a damaged personal reputation – never mind no front-office experience – the possibility of Kidd being afforded this kind of power and responsibility is being met with downright mockery among NBA owners and executives."

It's amazing to me Lasry is even considering bringing this clown show to town. They're friends, but come on.

[SoCalDukeFan]

Kidd has hardly proven himself as a coach. Zero proof as a GM or President.

Lets suppose Milwaukee does not hire Kidd. What do they do with Drew? They don't seem to have much confidence in him.

Another loser in this is Jabari. Bucks may be more of a mess than the Cavs.

SoCal

[greybeard]

My bet, Jason Kidd wanted to get rid of Williams, the ball movement killer of all time. Whatever it took. It took him to leave. Did he think that he would push King aside? I have to believe that there were talks about personnel before, why else ask for the authority, and I cannot imagine anyone as incompatible with the way Kidd sees the game being played as Williams.

Would not bet the ranch, mind you, but for the right odds . . . .;)

[brevity]

Bucks may be more of a mess than the Cavs.

Nah. The Bucks have a coaching problem, while the Cavs have an ownership problem. You can always change coaches, but it takes an Act of Silver to change an owner.

[bob blue devil]

conspiracy theory (note - i don't believe kidd or his puppeteer are doing this, but it's a fun theory) - jason and his friend lasry recognize its all down hill from hear with the nets (deron williams, paul peirce, kevin garnett, etc.) and that kidd will eventually be the fall guy. lasry thinks kidd is a future elite coach and kidd wants to go to a place where he actually has a shot at outperforming expectations and sticking. only problem is that he's stuck with the nets... how to fix that...? why not completely alienate management/make himself toxic - then the nets would take anything to get rid of him. pretend he has ambition to have personnel control and pretend the bucks promise him that down the road.

[NashvilleDevil]

It's not like Billy King helped the future of the Nets by trading all those picks (don't know if they're protected) to the Celtics in the Pierce/Garnett deal.

[Here is a Turtle]

It's not like Billy King helped the future of the Nets by trading all those picks (don't know if they're protected) to the Celtics in the Pierce/Garnett deal.

He did not help it, but he gifted Kidd with an opportunity that assistant coaches have been dreaming about for years and still haven't gotten despite being a head coach for years f(see Ewing, Patrick).

Kidd should have at least stuck it out a couple years and learn more instead about becoming a great head coach. Considering they let him keep his job after the DUI conviction at the beginning of the year and his questionable personal issues, it's the least he could do.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I'm conflicted on this. I've never been a fan of Kidd personally - too many distasteful off the court issues. His talent is/was undeniable, but I have trouble divorcing my issues with off-court stuff from on-court activities.

Regardless of all that, there were so many rumblings in-season about Kidd getting axed that it's hard to fault him for looking for other opportunities. On the other hand, if the organization worked through all that and stuck with him, you could argue he's being a jerk for not reciprocating that loyalty (or whatever passes for that in the NBA) a few months later when there's a new chance with a team that has more potential.

So, yeah, conflicted. Certainly lots of players take better opportunities when they come along - that's why you are seeing players opting out of contracts even this week. College coaches have no qualms splitting to take different jobs when something comes available.

Granted, the NBA is a much smaller pool to pee in, and if you burn bridges you might not get many more chances.

I don't care much for Kidd or the Nets, but I'd like to see Jabari have the best chance for success in Milwaukee so I hope things work out well.

[Billy Dat]

Most of the NYC sports radio this AM centered on two primary catalysts for Kidd's demands:

-Steve Kerr, 5 years $25MM
-Derek Fisher - 5 years $25MM

Compared to...

-Jason Kidd, 4 years, $10.5MM

It is probably no more complicated than that. I like these Adrian Wojnarowski tweets from last night:

Adrian Wojnarowski @WojYahooNBA · 7h
Lost in this is violation of coach's code: You don't pursue job belonging to someone else. Humiliating end for Larry Drew. Kidd's shameless.

Adrian Wojnarowski @WojYahooNBA · 7h
Rick Carlisle runs coach's association, takes issues seriously. Ultimate coach's coach. You can bet Kidd'll feel disgust within fraternity.

And the other consensus is that Kidd so lacks empathy and any kind of self-critical eye that he won't care.

I wonder how K feels about this power move by one of his Team USA prized pupils? Not a good look, at all.

[kAzE]

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/11155852/milwaukee-bucks-brooklyn-nets-agree-deal-jason-kidd

From this article, it sounds like the Bucks are making the necessary precautions with this move. They don't seem to be open to giving Kidd any responsibilities other than coaching, thank goodness. As you guys have said, Kidd's talent on the court is undeniable. Hopefully that translates to coaching. I thought he did a pretty good job down the stretch last season, and the Nets were a pretty good team after that early swoon. Hopefully, things work out so that Jabari has the best possible coaching to help him grow as a player. I think Kidd has to be an upgrade over Larry Drew, so overall, I think I'm beginning to like this move by the Bucks. At the very least, he's a hall of fame player who was a good leader on many of his teams, and is someone who knows what it takes to win a championship. The only thing he needs to do now is clean up his act and stop being a problem off the court.

[johnb]

An attempted power play against a 6'8" Russian billionaire plutocrat? Good move.

This is what Kidd gets for the 1995 NCAA game (though Hurley did torch him for 32 points in that game); Billy King was in the stands that day, so now is not the first time he rooted against Mr. Kidd.

[roywhite]

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/11155852/milwaukee-bucks-brooklyn-nets-agree-deal-jason-kidd

From this article, it sounds like the Bucks are making the necessary precautions with this move. They don't seem to be open to giving Kidd any responsibilities other than coaching, thank goodness. As you guys have said, Kidd's talent on the court is undeniable. Hopefully that translates to coaching. I thought he did a pretty good job down the stretch last season, and the Nets were a pretty good team after that early swoon. Hopefully, things work out so that Jabari has the best possible coaching to help him grow as a player. I think Kidd has to be an upgrade over Larry Drew, so overall, I think I'm beginning to like this move by the Bucks. At the very least, he's a hall of fame player who was a good leader on many of his teams, and is someone who knows what it takes to win a championship. The only thing he needs to do now is clean up his act and stop being a problem off the court.

Yeah, agree; Kidd was an important and successful player on Team USA, including the 2007 and 2008 teams coached by Coach K. As I recall, Coach K developed a good rapport with Kidd, and identified him as a key part of the Redeem Team, even though Kidd didn't play many minutes.

[kAzE]

I just realized I'm going to be a watching a bunch of Bucks and Cavs games next year. UGH. Please let the Cavs be good . . .

[NashvilleDevil]

An attempted power play against a 6'8" Russian billionaire plutocrat? Good move.

This is what Kidd gets for the 1995 NCAA game (though Hurley did torch him for 32 points in that game); Billy King was in the stands that day, so now is not the first time he rooted against Mr. Kidd.

1993

[FerryFor50]

So not only does Kidd pull the power play, but the Bucks have to pay up - multiple 2nd round picks.

Meanwhile, NJ gets to hit the reset button and pick a real coach (maybe Lionel Hollins? George Karl?) before Pierce and Garnett bolt/retire.

http://www.si.com/nba/2014/06/30/bucks-acquire-nets-jason-kidd-two-second-round-picks

http://www.si.com/nba/2014/06/30/report-lionel-hollins-and-ettore-messina-favored-replace-kidd-nets

[SoCalDukeFan]

He gets more money and will work for an owner that he knows and has some rapport. Presumably he will get more of a say in basketball operations etc.

I don't know what plans either the Bucks or the Nets have for becoming a championship contender but I personally have my doubts about Billy King as a GM.

SoCal

[camion]

He gets more money and will work for an owner that he knows and has some rapport. Presumably he will get more of a say in basketball operations etc.

I don't know what plans either the Bucks or the Nets have for becoming a championship contender but I personally have my doubts about Billy King as a GM.

SoCal

I see it as a good business decision by Kidd and the Nets.

Is it a good decision by the Bucks? I'm leaning toward "No," but that depends on the next question.

Can Kidd actually coach? The jury is still out on that.

[brevity]

Goodbye, Larry Drew. Kidd to coach Milwaukee (http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/11155852/milwaukee-bucks-brooklyn-nets-agree-deal-jason-kidd).


The Milwaukee Bucks have fired coach Larry Drew after agreeing to send two second-round draft picks to the Brooklyn Nets to secure the coaching rights to Jason Kidd, sources told ESPN.com on Monday.

Brooklyn will receive draft picks in 2015 and 2019 from Milwaukee.

[Kedsy]

He gets more money and will work for an owner that he knows and has some rapport. Presumably he will get more of a say in basketball operations etc.

He is neither an idiot nor a genius. Likely he had the whole scenario set with Lasry before he staged the pantomime with the Nets.

[greybeard]

conspiracy theory (note - i don't believe kidd or his puppeteer are doing this, but it's a fun theory) - jason and his friend lasry recognize its all down hill from hear with the nets (deron williams, paul peirce, kevin garnett, etc.) and that kidd will eventually be the fall guy. lasry thinks kidd is a future elite coach and kidd wants to go to a place where he actually has a shot at outperforming expectations and sticking. only problem is that he's stuck with the nets... how to fix that...? why not completely alienate management/make himself toxic - then the nets would take anything to get rid of him. pretend he has ambition to have personnel control and pretend the bucks promise him that down the road.

Nice. Very.

[roywhite]

conspiracy theory (note - i don't believe kidd or his puppeteer are doing this, but it's a fun theory) - jason and his friend lasry recognize its all down hill from hear with the nets (deron williams, paul peirce, kevin garnett, etc.) and that kidd will eventually be the fall guy. lasry thinks kidd is a future elite coach and kidd wants to go to a place where he actually has a shot at outperforming expectations and sticking. only problem is that he's stuck with the nets... how to fix that...? why not completely alienate management/make himself toxic - then the nets would take anything to get rid of him. pretend he has ambition to have personnel control and pretend the bucks promise him that down the road.

Just a variation on the spilled drink strategy?

Jason Kidd ices the shooter (http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10048642/jason-kidd-calls-hit-spill-drink-ice-free-throw-shooter)

Somewhere between gamesmanship and tampering?

[weezie]

Another loser in this is Jabari.


Oh yes, really! To go from Coach K to Coach Kidd?! "Poor Jabari" is right. JP can't be feeling that good about such a dreadful turn of events. But, it's the pros, baby. Strictly business, I guess.

[Dukehky]

Jason Kidd will likely be in charge of personnel in Milwaukee as well... He just sat there and looked confused all season. This is not great.

[Henderson]

Jason Kidd will likely be in charge of personnel in Milwaukee as well... He just sat there and looked confused all season. This is not great.

Oh, well. They still have Marquette. Has Jabari signed yet?

[brevity]

Oh, well. They still have Marquette. Has Jabari signed yet?

Larry Drew, Jason Kidd? Doesn't matter. Wojo is STILL the best coach in town.

[greybeard]

Kidd, I believe, will sharpen the ability of players to understand and play to the strengths of one another, and bring insights to how to guard in a way that fits not just the offensive player's proclivities, strengths and weaknesses, but also their own talents. He will also get them to understand the beautiful game (the guy loves soccer), will design approaches that manifest as a group, and create opportunities for everyone to succeed within the concept of team. That will mean that Parker will get to do his thing as a feature of the offense without having to reach, press, try to do what the team should.

I think that Parker might find in Kidd the brilliance for the game, how to maximize the impact of his enormous creativity onto the game at both ends.

In short, Parker could do worse; not so sure he could do better.

[Tappan Zee Devil]

Kidd, I believe, will sharpen the ability of players to understand and play to the strengths of one another, and bring insights to how to guard in a way that fits not just the offensive player's proclivities, strengths and weaknesses, but also their own talents. He will also get them to understand the beautiful game (the guy loves soccer), will design approaches that manifest as a group, and create opportunities for everyone to succeed within the concept of team. That will mean that Parker will get to do his thing as a feature of the offense without having to reach, press, try to do what the team should.

I think that Parker might find in Kidd the brilliance for the game, how to maximize the impact of his enormous creativity onto the game at both ends.

In short, Parker could do worse; not so sure he could do better.

Well - One can hope.

[cspan37421]

Kidd is no idiot, but he clearly is Machiavellian, and I don't think for a minute he'll be satisfied in Milwaukee. If his team starts out 15-10 will he hold out for an extension or permission to talk to the next team? I kid, but not by much. I suspect he'll leave a string of burned bridges behind him. He's off to a great start.

Wilbon quipped today on the TK show that he heard from an NBA insider that you just don't cross Nets ownership (Prokhorov). I get the hint, but what really is he likely to do? Just go to the next eager coaching candidate. He's not going to snuff him out. Yes, it may have been a betrayal, but how much of a loss for the Nets was it, really? Was Kidd really that great of a coach? Does he not get blame for their terrible start just as he got credit for their strong finish?

[Dukehky]

Kidd, I believe, will sharpen the ability of players to understand and play to the strengths of one another, and bring insights to how to guard in a way that fits not just the offensive player's proclivities, strengths and weaknesses, but also their own talents. He will also get them to understand the beautiful game (the guy loves soccer), will design approaches that manifest as a group, and create opportunities for everyone to succeed within the concept of team. That will mean that Parker will get to do his thing as a feature of the offense without having to reach, press, try to do what the team should.

I think that Parker might find in Kidd the brilliance for the game, how to maximize the impact of his enormous creativity onto the game at both ends.

In short, Parker could do worse; not so sure he could do better.

This is a really optimistic view of Kidd in the coaching capacity. I have not read/heard really anywhere that he did a good job with the Nets this year. I know it was his first year as a coach, but you'd think you would hear some praise somewhere. His best moves were playing Mason more and starting Livingston instead of Williams, the latter of whom was playing like a scrub. He was a low seed in the Eastern Conference, which was historically bad. I don't think Kidd is going to hold Jabari back all that much, but he certainly isn't the guy that I think can help maximize Jabari's abilities. Granted, Larry Drew probably wasn't that guy either.

[kAzE]

Is he really an idiot? He won 5 less games than the guys he replaced, yet he's now going to get paid more, and he switched to a team with at least a future, albeit at huge cost to his reputation. Still, staying with the Nets would have been worse on his career, and the public forgets this stuff in no time. Maybe Kidd is a genius . . .

[FerryFor50]

Is he really an idiot? He won 5 less games than the guys he replaced, yet he's now going to get paid more, and he switched to a team with at least a future, albeit at huge cost to his reputation. Still, staying with the Nets would have been worse on his career, and the public forgets this stuff in no time. Maybe Kidd is a genius . . .

He's an idiot because if he fails in Milwaukee, he will have a VERY hard time landing another gig. Owners and the coaching fraternity frown on the types of moves he made. It will likely come back to haunt him.

[Billy Dat]

NYC's primary sports radio station is WFAN. The guys who cover the 10AM - 1PM slot are Evan Roberts and Joe Beningo.

Roberts is as big a Nets fan as you will find among media members. When I heard about Kidd's moves, his take was the first I wanted to hear.

For those who like a little regional color and well motivated ranting, Roberts delivers a fitting take-down of Kidd:

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/audio/benigno-roberts/

(go to June 30 - Joe and Evan Show open)

These two are also begging the Nets to hire Brooklyn native Mark Jackson.

[Henderson]

These two [at WFAN] are also begging the Nets to hire Brooklyn native Mark Jackson.

I wonder if Mark Jackson could teach Mason that free-throw ritual he used -- the clasped finger tips pointing at the rim? Jackson was a 77% career shooter from the line.

[greybeard]

This is a really optimistic view of Kidd in the coaching capacity. I have not read/heard really anywhere that he did a good job with the Nets this year. I know it was his first year as a coach, but you'd think you would hear some praise somewhere. His best moves were playing Mason more and starting Livingston instead of Williams, the latter of whom was playing like a scrub. He was a low seed in the Eastern Conference, which was historically bad. I don't think Kidd is going to hold Jabari back all that much, but he certainly isn't the guy that I think can help maximize Jabari's abilities. Granted, Larry Drew probably wasn't that guy either.

I think that that is exactly the point. Kidd found the players that had been assembled uncoachable from his perspective, and whomever he wanted moved wouldn't be, even if it meant waiting a season. Thus, the demand for control which he knew he wouldn't get.

Kidd loves soccer and has ability to see 5 steps ahead of the play, as he describes on a YouTube clip, bespeaks an infatuation with the game since his youth. In fact, Kobe says he does the exact same thing, 5 steps ahead, and attributes it to his infatuation with the game through this day--it likes it more than basketball. Milwaukee has many international players who grew up in soccer cultures, and a point guard who is both young and talented. They are not ball killers; the Nets Big Four are to varying degrees. As a player Kidd made everyone he played with better, every team more a team. He not only was a great distributer, he create intelligence and vision that made ball and player movement the signature of every team he ever played on. He also reinvented his game more times over a 17 year career than any player I can recall.

If Kidd wants to coach, and he obviously does, it is not to coach a game that he would not play, that he could not play, because it denigrates what so clearly has for a lifetime captured his intellect, imagination, and ability to create coherence among 5, not 1 or 2, players on the court. If he does that at Milwaukee, they will be fun to watch, will improve considerably, will improve their record, and bring him satisfaction. Make it fun and challenging (in a good way) to come to the office.

It will also be a good start to his new career. That, as you point out, wasn't happening for him with the Nets, and, I believe he was convinced, wouldn't. Necessary move for him; no harm to the Nets.

[FerryFor50]

I think that that is exactly the point. Kidd found the players that had been assembled uncoachable from his perspective, and whomever he wanted moved wouldn't be, even if it meant waiting a season. Thus, the demand for control which he knew he wouldn't get.

Kidd loves soccer and has ability to see 5 steps ahead of the play, as he describes on a YouTube clip, bespeaks an infatuation with the game since his youth. In fact, Kobe says he does the exact same thing, 5 steps ahead, and attributes it to his infatuation with the game through this day--it likes it more than basketball. Milwaukee has many international players who grew up in soccer cultures, and a point guard who is both young and talented. They are not ball killers; the Nets Big Four are to varying degrees. As a player Kidd made everyone he played with better, every team more a team. He not only was a great distributer, he create intelligence and vision that made ball and player movement the signature of every team he ever played on. He also reinvented his game more times over a 17 year career than any player I can recall.

If Kidd wants to coach, and he obviously does, it is not to coach a game that he would not play, that he could not play, because it denigrates what so clearly has for a lifetime captured his intellect, imagination, and ability to create coherence among 5, not 1 or 2, players on the court. If he does that at Milwaukee, they will be fun to watch, will improve considerably, will improve their record, and bring him satisfaction. Make it fun and challenging (in a good way) to come to the office.

It will also be a good start to his new career. That, as you point out, wasn't happening for him with the Nets, and, I believe he was convinced, wouldn't. Necessary move for him; no harm to the Nets.

Kidd was coaching Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett, who were probably used to a real coach in Doc Rivers.

They probably saw Kidd's approach and had trouble respecting it.

Add to that Deron Williams' legacy of being uncoachable (remember, even Jerry Sloan couldn't reign him in) and you have the Kidd situation to a tee.

Rookie, unproven coach unable to win the respect of veteran star players. Pretty straightforward.

Let's see how he does in Milwaukee, with no veteran stars and a roster full of young promising talent. That will be the real test of his coaching chops.

[greybeard]

Kidd was coaching Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett, who were probably used to a real coach in Doc Rivers.

They probably saw Kidd's approach and had trouble respecting it.

Add to that Deron Williams' legacy of being uncoachable (remember, even Jerry Sloan couldn't reign him in) and you have the Kidd situation to a tee.

Rookie, unproven coach unable to win the respect of veteran star players. Pretty straightforward.

Let's see how he does in Milwaukee, with no veteran stars and a roster full of young promising talent. That will be the real test of his coaching chops.

It will be interesting to see how they play. Bet a nickel it will be a very nice and effective team game. Will they win? Not so much.

Pierce's greatest value in my view is as a late in the clock dead scorer. He's lost a lot of that, his ability to create his shot almost at will and make it. Pierce was half the player that he was once was and showed no other game than the one he always had, only it didn't work. I have to believe that that didn't stand well with Kidd; Kidd reinvented himself numerous times to remain high-value added; I don't know that Pierce tried; if he did, he didn't succeed. What was just said applies equally to Garnett.

My belief, he saw both as impediment to a playing style that Kidd wanted embraced.

Deron, coming off injury and being teamed with two guys, especially Joe, who demanded the ball and created on their own, almost to the exclusion of needing anyone else, was less than superfluous. Deron's game is to establish himself as a huge scoring threat, to create for others off of that, to score the ball with a green light throughout each possession, and to be the end-in-the-clock go-to guy. Kidd's approach to the game, and idea of what a point guard should be about, is exactly the opposite. Even if it were otherwise, Deron by the time he signed with the Nets had lost an awful lot, at least he lost an awful lot since the time he arrived. More importantly, how many guys can be score-first, create-your-own-shot, green-light, and give-it-to-me-at-the-end kind of guys?

As I said previously, Kidd adapted his game several times to fit his changing capabilities and the circumstances of new teams and a changing game. Each of the guys I just mentioned are very-high performers whom I'd have to believe possess similar adaptive abilities. Whether they had such abilities or not, they didn't comprise a game that Kidd needed, not just wanted, but needed. That game is why he is in it, why he has always been in it. The money, of course, too, but he would not sell his love for it, not when there were options.

As for Joe, Joe kills the ball, period. You want a team that plays like one do not have Joe.

My guess, the owner was the impediment and someone Kidd did not trust. Would any of us? So, even if the guy promised that Kidd would have considerable input on team composition, changing it when the opportunity might have presented it, Kidd would not buy it. I doubt that the owner ever went so far as promise that the GM and Kidd would collaborate on all moves, that Kidd's opinions were to be given considerable weight, and that the owner would not be overruling any decision made. Of course, big signings would need ownership buy in. Again, would anybody trust this owner's oral "promise" to do anything.

Kidd made the right move for him; no harm to the Nets, in my opinion. For what it is worth, my guess, Billy King was not an issue. Kidd did not want King's job, knew he wouldn't get it, but wanted to make clear that he was in coaching for a reason, and that reason could not be created unless the owner ceded GM-type authority to him. Another owner, King and Kidd might well have made a dynamite pair.

[destroslithoid]

Is he really an idiot? He won 5 less games than the guys he replaced, yet he's now going to get paid more, and he switched to a team with at least a future, albeit at huge cost to his reputation. Still, staying with the Nets would have been worse on his career, and the public forgets this stuff in no time. Maybe Kidd is a genius . . .

He's no genius, just well-connected, as far as I can tell.

[duke74]

NYC's primary sports radio station is WFAN. The guys who cover the 10AM - 1PM slot are Evan Roberts and Joe Beningo.

Roberts is as big a Nets fan as you will find among media members. When I heard about Kidd's moves, his take was the first I wanted to hear.

For those who like a little regional color and well motivated ranting, Roberts delivers a fitting take-down of Kidd:

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/audio/benigno-roberts/

(go to June 30 - Joe and Evan Show open)

These two are also begging the Nets to hire Brooklyn native Mark Jackson.

Very familar with this pair, Billy (as you might expect). I like Evan; getting tired of Joe's schtick, though - the "everyman" thing - including on Daily News Live on SNY.

[Des Esseintes]

Pierce's greatest value in my view is as a late in the clock dead scorer. He's lost a lot of that, his ability to create his shot almost at will and make it. Pierce was half the player that he was once was and showed no other game than the one he always had, only it didn't work. I have to believe that that didn't stand well with Kidd; Kidd reinvented himself numerous times to remain high-value added; I don't know that Pierce tried; if he did, he didn't succeed.

Pierce played extended stretches as a power forward for the first time in his career last season. That shift to ultra-small ball was one of the key components to turning Brooklyn's season from a laughingstock campaign to a respectable one. So I don't understand why you would say he didn't try to change or failed in the attempt. Pierce's metamorphosis was critical to the success Brooklyn did find last season. Which, I grant you, is totally weird, what with him having not grown up in a soccer culture and all.

[greybeard]

Pierce played extended stretches as a power forward for the first time in his career last season. That shift to ultra-small ball was one of the key components to turning Brooklyn's season from a laughingstock campaign to a respectable one. So I don't understand why you would say he didn't try to change or failed in the attempt. Pierce's metamorphosis was critical to the success Brooklyn did find last season. Which, I grant you, is totally weird, what with him having not grown up in a soccer culture and all.

The Nets played ugly, as many NBA teams do. Pierce could not change that, or his need to create first and foremost for himself. I think that Kidd did not want to coach that team as constituted precisely because it comprises star players who all had the same create-for-myself and thus for the team approach. Did Kidd do his best to create wins with what he had, and did Pierce do what he could to make that happen. Sure. Was Pierce an asset that could play the game that Kidd embraces? I think pretty clearly not, at least on a team filed with players who perform the same role that he does, whatever their or his "position." Where you stand with that I do not know.

The league is filed with international players and teams that have won Championships, the Heat excepted, have in the main been lead and infused with them. The most attractive offenses the league has produced have come from teams that have played a soccer-oriented style infused with players steeped in that game. Even Jordan's Bulls played Phil's Triangle, an offense based upon elemental soccer principles that the international studded Spurs took to an entirely new, soccer style level. Live with it or be left blind. The American game is not American any longer, except when it comes to bling and parallel play, that consists of boring pick and rolls and sparkling dunks. Yummy.

[Des Esseintes]

If only Coney Island had a soccer stadium. We could have perfected basketball decades ago.

[lotusland]

If only Coney Island had a soccer stadium. We could have perfected basketball decades ago.

Couldn't they play soccer at the competitive eating stadium?

[greybeard]

If only Coney Island had a soccer stadium. We could have perfected basketball decades ago.

Keep playing with a peach basket. Speaking of Coney Island, holy Hot Dogs, Robin, seems your Heat are interested in Lance Stephenson. How could that be, I mean it was oh so unseemly that he dared blow in the King's ear. Or, maybe the interest is just in case, in which case our sides on this Coney Island thing might just wind up being reversed. Now, wouldn't that be something.

Just a coincidence that all those Spur internationals ended up kicking the Heat all over the court. Paris sure is the hotbed of good old American style basketball and Parker and Diaw are oh so good at throwing it down. Parker's quick feet and startling deliveries don't remind you more of Messi than anybody you've seen on a basketball court. Okay, I got it. Miami has South Beach.

[greybeard]

Couldn't they play soccer at the competitive eating stadium?

I suppose by you baseball still is an American game, America has always been and always will be the greatest country on earth and every other country is not, and Henry Ford invented cars so Americans buy Japanese and German only by mistake. Whatever floats your boat.

That 20th pick, the 6'9" Brazilian by Toronto, look out. I hear he can kick it. They said the next Kevin Durant; my guess, Magic.

[Duvall]

The American game is not American any longer, except when it comes to bling...

Okay.

[tommy]

That 20th pick, the 6'9" Brazilian by Toronto, look out. I hear he can kick it. They said the next Kevin Durant; my guess, Magic.

Wasn't it you who last year around this time, and before, was singing the praises of Otto Porter, saying he was such a special player, special talent, and would be a surefire star in the NBA? He was a huge bust as a rookie, even after recovering from his injury. Oh, I know, according to you nobody really is ever recovered from an injury, but still -- he couldn't crack the Wizards rotation as the #3 pick in the draft.

[tommy]

The Nets played ugly, as many NBA teams do. Pierce could not change that, or his need to create first and foremost for himself. I think that Kidd did not want to coach that team as constituted precisely because it comprises star players who all had the same create-for-myself and thus for the team approach. Did Kidd do his best to create wins with what he had, and did Pierce do what he could to make that happen. Sure. Was Pierce an asset that could play the game that Kidd embraces? I think pretty clearly not, at least on a team filed with players who perform the same role that he does, whatever their or his "position." Where you stand with that I do not know.

The league is filed with international players and teams that have won Championships, the Heat excepted, have in the main been lead and infused with them. The most attractive offenses the league has produced have come from teams that have played a soccer-oriented style infused with players steeped in that game. Even Jordan's Bulls played Phil's Triangle, an offense based upon elemental soccer principles that the international studded Spurs took to an entirely new, soccer style level. Live with it or be left blind. The American game is not American any longer, except when it comes to bling and parallel play, that consists of boring pick and rolls and sparkling dunks. Yummy.

I would be interested to hear you describe with specificity what you mean when you say you see a basketball team playing a "soccer-oriented style" or a basketball offense "based upon elemental soccer principles." Seriously. I saw the Spurs play beautiful offensive basketball characterized by unselfish play, excellent spacing, making the extra pass, the quick recognition of mismatches, and then burying a lot of shots. What about any of that is attributable to, or derivative of, any soccer training that any of their players or coaches had? All basketball teams seek to space the floor properly; all coaches implore their players to play unselfishly and to make the extra pass. The Spurs were very good at those things, but I'm not understanding what relationship any of it has to soccer or more specifically, soccer training, when the huge majority of players and coaches who have not had soccer training also value and execute those skills.

Spacing was and is the key to Phil Jackson's triangle offense (it's actually Tex Winter's offense) but I am unaware of any connection Tex Winter had with the game of soccer or any evidence that his design of his offense was inspired by anything soccer-related. Can you enlighten me on that?

Also, if you take the Spurs out of the mix, and also take Miami out as you recognize they don't typify that type of European-style game you are talking about, then the only other champions of the last 10 years are Dallas in 2011 and Boston in 2008. Boston had no foreign players in its rotation, and Dallas had only Dirk as a starter and JJ Barea as a rotation guy off the bench.

[Des Esseintes]

Wasn't it you who last year around this time, and before, was singing the praises of Otto Porter, saying he was such a special player, special talent, and would be a surefire star in the NBA? He was a huge bust as a rookie, even after recovering from his injury. Oh, I know, according to you nobody really is ever recovered from an injury, but still -- he couldn't crack the Wizards rotation as the #3 pick in the draft.

I think we all know that no Georgetown player has ever failed. He has only been betrayed. Paul George destroyed Roy Hibbert, for instance. It wasn't in any way cowardice or weak will on the part of Hibbert. So who on the Wizards committed the sin against Otto? Couldn't be Nene. He's from a soccer nation, where men care for one another and eschew bling and dunking. Same with Gortat and Kevin Seraphim. If I had to guess who ruined Otto Porter's rookie season, it's gotta be John Wall. The dribble-drive offense is fascist, amiright?

[theAlaskanBear]

Can we keep this thread on topic related to Jason Kidd and/or Bucks? Or merge it into an NBA offseason thread? We don't need the same arguments being hashed out in 4 different threads.

[greybeard]

I would be interested to hear you describe with specificity what you mean when you say you see a basketball team playing a "soccer-oriented style" or a basketball offense "based upon elemental soccer principles." Seriously. I saw the Spurs play beautiful offensive basketball characterized by unselfish play, excellent spacing, making the extra pass, the quick recognition of mismatches, and then burying a lot of shots. What about any of that is attributable to, or derivative of, any soccer training that any of their players or coaches had? All basketball teams seek to space the floor properly; all coaches implore their players to play unselfishly and to make the extra pass. The Spurs were very good at those things, but I'm not understanding what relationship any of it has to soccer or more specifically, soccer training, when the huge majority of players and coaches who have not had soccer training also value and execute those skills.

Spacing was and is the key to Phil Jackson's triangle offense (it's actually Tex Winter's offense) but I am unaware of any connection Tex Winter had with the game of soccer or any evidence that his design of his offense was inspired by anything soccer-related. Can you enlighten me on that?

Also, if you take the Spurs out of the mix, and also take Miami out as you recognize they don't typify that type of European-style game you are talking about, then the only other champions of the last 10 years are Dallas in 2011 and Boston in 2008. Boston had no foreign players in its rotation, and Dallas had only Dirk as a starter and JJ Barea as a rotation guy off the bench.

This is a dead horse. I've explained myself quite well. You think that the Heat were brought to their knees, looked completely lost, because the Spurs had good spacing and moved the ball well, just like other basketball teams, fine.

The NY Times Article I linked has Tex Winter saying that he came up with the Triangle offense on his own, but understands that there are similarities with how the game of soccer is played. http://www.topdrawersoccer.com/the91stminute/2013/06/jason-kidd-retires-from-nba-long-after-retiring-from-his-first-love-soccer/

[lotusland]

I suppose by you baseball still is an American game, America has always been and always will be the greatest country on earth and every other country is not, and Henry Ford invented cars so Americans buy Japanese and German only by mistake. Whatever floats your boat.

That 20th pick, the 6'9" Brazilian by Toronto, look out. I hear he can kick it. They said the next Kevin Durant; my guess, Magic.

Pretty sure you didn't mean to respond to my post. I you did I have no idea what you're talking about. I just made a wise crack about competitive eating on Coney Island. I haven't kept up with all the previous posts which apparently relate soccer to the NBA.

[Henderson]

Can we keep this thread on topic related to Jason Kidd and/or Bucks? Or merge it into an NBA offseason thread? We don't need the same arguments being hashed out in 4 different threads.

Good call. So what is a Jason Kidd offense? What's his philosophy? I haven't been able to tell. He seems kind of like Mark Jackson. It's hard to see from a fan standpoint that there is anything other than, "Put good guys out there." I'm sure there is more than that; it's just hard to see.

Unlike the triangle offense, which has an internal logic. Is there a soccer influence? I wouldn't assume so, as I think Greybeard has suggested. I remember a debate I had with a colleague some years ago regarding the American federalist system. She argued that the Iroquois had a federation and that, therefore, the US delegates to the constitutional convention must have "stolen without attribution" the Iroquois federalist system. I argued that the concept of federalism isn't so complicated that people could only come up with the idea by borrowing it, and the Iroquois weren't the first. Great simple ideas can have multiple independent developers. Same thing with the triangle offense in basketball. I'll bet there was something like a triangle offense in ancient games.

[sagegrouse]

Good call. So what is a Jason Kidd offense? What's his philosophy? I haven't been able to tell. He seems kind of like Mark Jackson. It's hard to see from a fan standpoint that there is anything other than, "Put good guys out there." I'm sure there is more than that; it's just hard to see.

Unlike the triangle offense, which has an internal logic. Is there a soccer influence? I wouldn't assume so, as I think Greybeard has suggested. I remember a debate I had with a colleague some years ago regarding the American federalist system. She argued that the Iroquois had a federation and that, therefore, the US delegates to the constitutional convention must have "stolen without attribution" the Iroquois federalist system. I argued that the concept of federalism isn't so complicated that people could only come up with the idea by borrowing it, and the Iroquois weren't the first. Great simple ideas can have multiple independent developers. Same thing with the triangle offense in basketball. I'll bet there was something like a triangle offense in ancient games.

Having just returned from the Roman amphitheater in Merida, Spain, I can testify that groups of gladiators would frequently take on multiple animals at once -- boars or lions or such -- and I believe they used a triangle technique to separate individual beasts to be subdued. This kind of gladiator may have been a Bestiarius.

[greybeard]

Good call. So what is a Jason Kidd offense? What's his philosophy? I haven't been able to tell. He seems kind of like Mark Jackson. It's hard to see from a fan standpoint that there is anything other than, "Put good guys out there." I'm sure there is more than that; it's just hard to see.

Unlike the triangle offense, which has an internal logic. Is there a soccer influence? I wouldn't assume so, as I think Greybeard has suggested. I remember a debate I had with a colleague some years ago regarding the American federalist system. She argued that the Iroquois had a federation and that, therefore, the US delegates to the constitutional convention must have "stolen without attribution" the Iroquois federalist system. I argued that the concept of federalism isn't so complicated that people could only come up with the idea by borrowing it, and the Iroquois weren't the first. Great simple ideas can have multiple independent developers. Same thing with the triangle offense in basketball. I'll bet there was something like a triangle offense in ancient games.

ABSOLUTELY!!!! Did not mean to imply otherwise.

[theAlaskanBear]

Good call. So what is a Jason Kidd offense? What's his philosophy? I haven't been able to tell. He seems kind of like Mark Jackson. It's hard to see from a fan standpoint that there is anything other than, "Put good guys out there." I'm sure there is more than that; it's just hard to see.

Unlike the triangle offense, which has an internal logic. Is there a soccer influence? I wouldn't assume so, as I think Greybeard has suggested. I remember a debate I had with a colleague some years ago regarding the American federalist system. She argued that the Iroquois had a federation and that, therefore, the US delegates to the constitutional convention must have "stolen without attribution" the Iroquois federalist system. I argued that the concept of federalism isn't so complicated that people could only come up with the idea by borrowing it, and the Iroquois weren't the first. Great simple ideas can have multiple independent developers. Same thing with the triangle offense in basketball. I'll bet there was something like a triangle offense in ancient games.

Breaking news-Alexandria, EGYPT: Historians unearth documents revealing origins of Euclid...rather than a philosopher or respected academic, Euclid was an obscure assistant coach for Pharos Athlitikos Omilos. Among the documents, the lost chapters to Elements, a full title: stoichiea tou basket, and finally a list of the best 5 right angle passers in the Aegyptus Hellenes league.

[greybeard]

Wasn't it you who last year around this time, and before, was singing the praises of Otto Porter, saying he was such a special player, special talent, and would be a surefire star in the NBA? He was a huge bust as a rookie, even after recovering from his injury. Oh, I know, according to you nobody really is ever recovered from an injury, but still -- he couldn't crack the Wizards rotation as the #3 pick in the draft.

Please provide me with that post. I thought Porter a terrific college player. I also thought the Wizards were nuts.

[Henderson]

Please provide me with that post. I thought Porter a terrific college player. I also thought the Wizards were nuts.

I do believe Otto Porter was the #1 selection in last year's DBR Mock Draft. IIRC it was AlaskanBear who made that choice? Easy to look up, but I'm lazy.

[JasonEvans]

I do believe Otto Porter was the #1 selection in last year's DBR Mock Draft. IIRC it was AlaskanBear who made that choice? Easy to look up, but I'm lazy.

You are correct (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?31479-2013-DBR-Mock-Draft-make-picks-here!&highlight=otto+porter) sir and, though some folks (like me) felt it was a stretch to take Porter #1, no one said it was a horrible pick or that Porter was a terrible player.

Also, I did not find any posts by Greybeard about Porter other than this one from a thread seeking All-American predictions for the 2012-13 season.


Otto Porter, Georgetown. Keep your eye on this guy. He is special.

-Jason "the 2013 draft was just terrible -- getting something wrong about that class if pretty forgivable in my book" Evans

[theAlaskanBear]

You are correct (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?31479-2013-DBR-Mock-Draft-make-picks-here!&highlight=otto+porter) sir and, though some folks (like me) felt it was a stretch to take Porter #1, no one said it was a horrible pick or that Porter was a terrible player.

Also, I did not find any posts by Greybeard about Porter other than this one from a thread seeking All-American predictions for the 2012-13 season.



-Jason "the 2013 draft was just terrible -- getting something wrong about that class if pretty forgivable in my book" Evans

Yes yes, I chose Otto Porter at #1. Can we rub it in some more? Just kidding...

It's a bit early to be judging Porter due to his injury and lack of PT. He only played 319 minutes, which is 6.6 NBA games. I play the long game Jason, and 2-3 years from now, I will be waiting to bludgeon you with this post. ;)