PDA

View Full Version : Len Bias RIP



Henderson
06-19-2014, 07:04 PM
Len Bias died 28 years ago today. It was like Secretariat breaking a leg right before the Belmont. What a talent. What a waste. I was living in the Boston area at the time and a Celtics fan. The loss felt like some ship had sunk. Or Secretariat breaking a leg while sinking on a ship. Or something. Basketball misses Len Bias.

OldPhiKap
06-19-2014, 07:41 PM
Len Bias died 28 years ago today. It was like Secretariat breaking a leg right before the Kentucky Derby. What a talent. What a waste. I was living in the Boston area at the time and a Celtics fan. The loss felt like some ship had sunk. Or Secretariat breaking a leg while sinking on a ship. Or something. Basketball misses Len Bias.

His last game in Cameron, he scored something like 41 points before fouling out. Got a standing ovation as he went off. And we had the best defense in the country in '86.

Like Elvis, I remember where I was when I heard he died.

Tragic waste.

Bob Green
06-19-2014, 07:49 PM
Basketball misses Len Bias.

The World misses Len Bias.

roywhite
06-19-2014, 08:06 PM
A few things I remember about Len Bias as a player:
He was amazingly strong
He was a great leaper
Somewhat unusually for a great athlete, he had a very soft shooting touch; seemed like he often got the ball to bounce around the rim and fall in

In terms of his build and jumping ability, Semi Ojeleye reminds me some of Bias.

Newton_14
06-19-2014, 08:18 PM
Len Bias died 28 years ago today. It was like Secretariat breaking a leg right before the Belmont. What a talent. What a waste. I was living in the Boston area at the time and a Celtics fan. The loss felt like some ship had sunk. Or Secretariat breaking a leg while sinking on a ship. Or something. Basketball misses Len Bias.

I was at work and a huge Celtics fan. I honestly wanted to cry. I can see the guy coming to tell me like it was yesterday. I told him no way man, you are crazy. Then we turned on a radio. It was all over the news. (Yes kids, no internet, no PC's, no smart phones, not even a TV in the building. Radio was the only confirmation we had).

I was so looking forward to watching a frontline of Bias, Bird, McHale. With DJ and Ainge, man that would have been a sick lineup. He was the next Michael Jordan before there was barely a Michael Jordan. Just amazing player. I hate it for the young guys who never got to see him play. You missed history.

Here is a Turtle
06-19-2014, 08:50 PM
He was an all time Maryland great, and I wish I was alive to see him play. He was a great talent and from talking to people who knew him, sounds like he was a good person. Not too surprising, but students still go to Washington Hall to go check out the room where he went into cardiac arrest. I checked youtube earlier, and I found an old game where Bias went off on UNC for 35 points. Don't know how many would be interested, but I'll post it anyway.

Enjoy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPT2ypMxrsA).

Newton_14
06-19-2014, 09:58 PM
He was an all time Maryland great, and I wish I was alive to see him play. He was a great talent and from talking to people who knew him, sounds like he was a good person. Not too surprising, but students still go to Washington Hall to go check out the room where he went into cardiac arrest. I checked youtube earlier, and I found an old game where Bias went off on UNC for 35 points. Don't know how many would be interested, but I'll post it anyway.

Enjoy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPT2ypMxrsA).


Thanks. I watched that game live. Amazing performance. They could not stop him. Man amongst boys...

OldPhiKap
06-19-2014, 10:22 PM
He was an all time Maryland great, and I wish I was alive to see him play. He was a great talent and from talking to people who knew him, sounds like he was a good person. Not too surprising, but students still go to Washington Hall to go check out the room where he went into cardiac arrest. I checked youtube earlier, and I found an old game where Bias went off on UNC for 35 points. Don't know how many would be interested, but I'll post it anyway.

Enjoy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPT2ypMxrsA).


Thanks. I watched that game live. Amazing performance. They could not stop him. Man amongst boys...

My recollection:

With three games to go in the regular season, 1986, UNC had a half game lead over Duke for the regular season "title." Bias and Md went into CH and beat the Heels, really Len as a one-man wrecking crew (game you linked). Watched that game on a tv in the bar in the basement oF Gilbert-Adams (forget the name of the place). Then we beat Md in the game I described above, at home, despite 40+ from Len, then beat UNC in Cameron in the infamous "in-Hale ex-Hale" game (senior night for Dawkins, Alarie, Bilas, Hendu, W.Williams -- think they retired JD's jersey that night too).

Someone can correct my failing memory, but in my mind that was one of the most intense and enjoyable two weeks in Duke ball.

Oh yeah, and screw Never Nervous Pervis. But I digress.

Good link 'Turtle, it is memories like this which make me wish the administration in College Park had not submarined their school.

FerryFor50
06-19-2014, 10:33 PM
A little gem I came across while watching the Bias highlights...

http://articles.latimes.com/1988-08-15/sports/sp-409_1_michael-jordan

I had no idea that game even happened.

BlueTeuf
06-20-2014, 06:59 AM
Basement of G-A; the Down Under?

OldPhiKap
06-20-2014, 07:08 AM
Basement of G-A; the Down Under?

Exactly!

Which reminds me -- Barrence Whitfield and the Savages have a new album out. (Props to my college buddy Mod Mark for hipping me to it)

Henderson
06-20-2014, 07:49 AM
Basement of G-A; the Down Under?


Exactly!

Which reminds me -- Barrence Whitfield and the Savages have a new album out. (Props to my college buddy Mod Mark for hipping me to it)

Too funny. In the early 1980's there was a band that called themselves The Fruit Eating Bears that played regularly at the D.U. Kind of a comedy bluegrass act. I ran into the banjo player for that band at a wedding last month in a small town in Ohio, over 30 years on.

Rich
06-20-2014, 11:14 AM
Basement of G-A; the Down Under?


Exactly!

Which reminds me -- Barrence Whitfield and the Savages have a new album out. (Props to my college buddy Mod Mark for hipping me to it)


Too funny. In the early 1980's there was a band that called themselves The Fruit Eating Bears that played regularly at the D.U. Kind of a comedy bluegrass act. I ran into the banjo player for that band at a wedding last month in a small town in Ohio, over 30 years on.

Not to hijack this thread, but wasn't the Down Under the bar under the pass to The Bryan Center? And wasn't Gilbert Adams on East campus? Maybe I'm confused or "mis-remembering".

Back to the OP, I remember the Duke-MD game and the Duke-UNC game and Len Bias was a monster. Totally unstoppable.

OldPhiKap
06-20-2014, 11:26 AM
Not to hijack this thread, but wasn't the Down Under the bar under the pass to The Bryan Center? And wasn't Gilbert Adams on East campus? Maybe I'm confused or "mis-remembering".

Back to the OP, I remember the Duke-MD game and the Duke-UNC game and Len Bias was a monster. Totally unstoppable.

You're thinking of The Hideaway.

Rich
06-20-2014, 11:43 AM
You're thinking of The Hideaway.

Ahh, yes. Good times in The Hideaway. I told you I misremembered!

ancienteagle
06-20-2014, 01:52 PM
He was an all time Maryland great, and I wish I was alive to see him play. He was a great talent and from talking to people who knew him, sounds like he was a good person. Not too surprising, but students still go to Washington Hall to go check out the room where he went into cardiac arrest. I checked youtube earlier, and I found an old game where Bias went off on UNC for 35 points. Don't know how many would be interested, but I'll post it anyway.


Don't forget: no account of that UNC-MD game would be complete without recounting with laughter the last seven seconds. Here's the set-up: Overtime, Maryland up 75-72, seven seconds left, Maryland inbounding under its own basket. Keith Gatlin has the ball out, notices that the "All-American" Kenny Smith has his back to him, inbounds the ball off of Smith's butt, scores an uncontested layup. Final: Maryland 77, UNC 72, OT.

Remember this the next time Kenny Smith says he's a lot smarter than Rashad McCants! Oh, the humanity!

Henderson
06-20-2014, 02:14 PM
Don't forget: no account of that UNC-MD game would be complete without recounting with laughter the last seven seconds. Here's the set-up: Overtime, Maryland up 75-72, seven seconds left, Maryland inbounding under its own basket. Keith Gatlin has the ball out, notices that the "All-American" Kenny Smith has his back to him, inbounds the ball off of Smith's butt, scores an uncontested layup. Final: Maryland 77, UNC 72, OT.


Did Kenny's butt show up in the box score with an assist? It would have been nice if UNC-CH had taken something positive like that away from the game.

brevity
06-20-2014, 03:03 PM
Don't forget: no account of that UNC-MD game would be complete without recounting with laughter the last seven seconds. Here's the set-up: Overtime, Maryland up 75-72, seven seconds left, Maryland inbounding under its own basket. Keith Gatlin has the ball out, notices that the "All-American" Kenny Smith has his back to him, inbounds the ball off of Smith's butt, scores an uncontested layup. Final: Maryland 77, UNC 72, OT.


Did Kenny's butt show up in the box score with an assist? It would have been nice if UNC-CH had taken something positive like that away from the game.

Not an expert, but I'm sure there's nothing positive about Kenny Smith's butt.

I watched the last 7 seconds of OT play in that video. I liked the part where the Maryland player was shooting free throws, and the announcer says, "And the crowd is up waving its arms. Something you don't see very often in Carolina..." Some things never change.

OldPhiKap
06-20-2014, 03:44 PM
Not an expert, but I'm sure there's nothing positive about Kenny Smith's butt.

I watched the last 7 seconds of OT play in that video. I liked the part where the Maryland player was shooting free throws, and the announcer says, "And the crowd is up waving its arms. Something you don't see very often in Carolina..." Some things never change.

That was when the Dean Dome was new, too. IIRC they opened it with our first game against them about a month or two before the Md game.

Olympic Fan
06-20-2014, 04:53 PM
That was when the Dean Dome was new, too. IIRC they opened it with our first game against them about a month or two before the Md game.

It was in fact, UNC's first ever loss in the Smith Center.

UNC opened it on Jan. 18. 1986 with a 95-92 victory over Duke. Home wins over Georgia Tech, Clemson, Notre Dame and Wake Forest followed. On Feb. 20, UNC lost to Bias and Maryland in the Dean Dome.

It was a disastrous loss for the Heels. UNC was 26-1 and No. 1 in the nation going into that game. They led most of the way, but Maryland rallied and forced overtime. Not only did UNC lose in the overtime, but senior guard Steve Hale suffered a collapsed lung during the extra period. He would miss the rest of the regular season as UNC finished 1-3 (losing to Maryland, NC State and Duke down the stretch. Hale returned for the ACC Tournament, but UNC was knocked out in the first round by Maryland. They did make the Sweet 16, but ended up losing to the same Louisville team that would beat Duke in the title game.

I think it's right that we remember Bias and his passing. But let's not make him something he was not. He was a great player, but there are some who try to make him one of the all-time greats. He was a consensus first-team All-American once and ACC player of the year twice -- but he never won a significant national player of the year award and he averaged 20 points once in his career. He was a so-so rebounder for his size (5.7 for his career) and not much of a playmaker. He was a spectacular player more than a great player. In fact, I would argue that Walt Williams had a slightly better junior/senior seasons than Bias. Both had their best years for mediocre teams.

And his death, while tragic, wasn't like it was an act of an arbitrary god -- Bias's cardiac arrest was precipitated by his massive cocaine overdose.

I think his death and the spotlight it put on athletes indulging in illegal drugs helped bring that era to a close -- and THAT was Bias' greatest significance to the sports world.

-jk
06-20-2014, 05:35 PM
Oly,

When was the "In-Hale, Ex-Hale" - then "Ex-Hale, Ex-Hale" when he fouled out (with a big laugh from him) - game? I seem to recall that was senior day at Duke. Or was that the ACC?

-jk

OldPhiKap
06-20-2014, 06:25 PM
Oly,

When was the "In-Hale, Ex-Hale" - then "Ex-Hale, Ex-Hale" when he fouled out (with a big laugh from him) - game? I seem to recall that was senior day at Duke. Or was that the ACC?

-jk

Senior Day. The winner got the top seed in the ACC Tourney.

OldPhiKap
06-20-2014, 06:29 PM
It was in fact, UNC's first ever loss in the Smith Center.

UNC opened it on Jan. 18. 1986 with a 95-92 victory over Duke. Home wins over Georgia Tech, Clemson, Notre Dame and Wake Forest followed. On Feb. 20, UNC lost to Bias and Maryland in the Dean Dome.

It was a disastrous loss for the Heels. UNC was 26-1 and No. 1 in the nation going into that game. They led most of the way, but Maryland rallied and forced overtime. Not only did UNC lose in the overtime, but senior guard Steve Hale suffered a collapsed lung during the extra period. He would miss the rest of the regular season as UNC finished 1-3 (losing to Maryland, NC State and Duke down the stretch. Hale returned for the ACC Tournament, but UNC was knocked out in the first round by Maryland. They did make the Sweet 16, but ended up losing to the same Louisville team that would beat Duke in the title game.

I think it's right that we remember Bias and his passing. But let's not make him something he was not. He was a great player, but there are some who try to make him one of the all-time greats. He was a consensus first-team All-American once and ACC player of the year twice -- but he never won a significant national player of the year award and he averaged 20 points once in his career. He was a so-so rebounder for his size (5.7 for his career) and not much of a playmaker. He was a spectacular player more than a great player. In fact, I would argue that Walt Williams had a slightly better junior/senior seasons than Bias. Both had their best years for mediocre teams.

And his death, while tragic, wasn't like it was an act of an arbitrary god -- Bias's cardiac arrest was precipitated by his massive cocaine overdose.

I think his death and the spotlight it put on athletes indulging in illegal drugs helped bring that era to a close -- and THAT was Bias' greatest significance to the sports world.

Bias was consensus first team All-America in 1986; second team All-America in 1985.
ACC player of the year, 1985 and 1986.
ACC athlete of the year, 1986.

Second overall draft choice.

Bias was a stud in arguably the conference's most dominant decade top to bottom.

Agree with everything else.

Olympic Fan
06-20-2014, 07:32 PM
Oly,

When was the "In-Hale, Ex-Hale" - then "Ex-Hale, Ex-Hale" when he fouled out (with a big laugh from him) - game? I seem to recall that was senior day at Duke. Or was that the ACC?

-jk

The "In-Hale, Ex-Hale" chant was at Cameron -- Mar. 3, 1986. It was the final regular season game of the season.

Your memory is pretty good with one exception -- Hale didn't foul out because he was not in uniform. He was on the bench in street clothes when taunted with the chant before the game ... as you recall, he laughed about it.

Here's the box score from that game:

http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/games/boxscore.php?gameid=19860302

As others have noted, that was a huge game in the ACC regular season race. Duke won the title outright by beating UNC ... and UNC finished third. If UNC had won, there would have been a three-way tie for the title between Duke, UNC and Georgia Tech (all at 11-3). As it was, UNC finished 10-4 behind 11-3 Georgia Tech and 12-2 Duke. It was the first time since 1966 that Dean Smith failed to finish at least tied for second in the regular season.

It should be noted that Maryland finished 6-8 (sixth place) despite Bias' best season. He beat Dawkins 81-40 in the ACC POY vote.

Reilly
06-21-2014, 12:23 AM
... let's not make him something he was not. He was a great player, but there are some who try to make him one of the all-time greats ...

Players who were drafted top 2 in the NBA draft and also won multiple ACC Player of the Year Awards

Tim Duncan**
Ralph Sampson ***
David Thompson ***
Danny Ferry**
Len Bias**

OlyFan, I agree with 99.9% of the stuff you write. And 99.9% of the stuff you write is pure gold and of the highest value. You are 100% wrong on this one: Len Bias was one of the all-time greats. As was Sampson (who I despised more than anybody and who I know you have your statistical and intestinal fortitude arguments against as well, and you're wrong about him, too (though not quite as wrong as about Bias).

Sad factoid: Marvin Williams was named for another star who tragically died an early death (Marvin Gay Williams), was a #2 NBA overall pick like "Leonard" (as Lefty would say), and was born on the same day that Bias died.

Olympic Fan
06-21-2014, 02:47 AM
Players who were drafted top 2 in the NBA draft and also won multiple ACC Player of the Year Awards

Tim Duncan**
Ralph Sampson ***
David Thompson ***
Danny Ferry**
Len Bias**

OlyFan, I agree with 99.9% of the stuff you write. And 99.9% of the stuff you write is pure gold and of the highest value. You are 100% wrong on this one: Len Bias was one of the all-time greats. As was Sampson (who I despised more than anybody and who I know you have your statistical and intestinal fortitude arguments against as well, and you're wrong about him, too (though not quite as wrong as about Bias).


In other words, you disagree ... that's fine. It doesn't mean I am wrong.

Bias was a highlight reel player ... you can see clips and think, wow, he's the greatest player ever. He was a great player, but there are a lot of ways to look at it. He was a freak athlete. What did he do well? He was an efficient scorer ... but he topped 20 points one year in his career. He was a mediocre rebounder for a 6-8 leaper. He was a so-so ballhandler, who averaged barely an assist a game and almost as many turnovers as assists. He was an mediocre to non-existent defender. He certainly didn't lead his team to any great shakes - Maryland was 8-6/6-8 in the ACC in his last two years.

What -- aside from the highlight reel plays -- makes him one of the best players in ACC history. Most spectacular? Yes. Best? No,.

The two ACC POY Awards and No. 2 NBA draft pick are impressive ... but you named four other players who matched him that regard. And you left out a guy named David Thompson -- three times ACC POY and the No. 1 pick in the NBA draft (although he signed with Denver of the ABA). Every other one of those guys was a national player of the year.

And that doesn't include -- in the '80s alone -- James Worthy or Michael Jordan, who were at least as good (Jordan, who is not one of the ACC's five best players, was a much more compete player). As I said, Bias NEVER won a recognized national player of the year award -- in the decade of the 1980s, Worthy, Sampson (three times), Jordan, Dawkins and Ferry all won major NPOY awards. By that measure, he's the sixth best player of the decade. Throw in Sam Perkins, who didn't win a NPOY either, but was a two-time consensus first-team All-American (one more than Bias) and he could be labeled No. 7 -- in the '80s.

Statistically, there's nothing to put Bias in the top 10. His numbers are very similar to Grant Hill -- Bias scored 1.5 ppg more, but Grant rebounded better and averaged almost three times as many assists (plus, he was a million times better defensively ... an his teams won). Two guys named Scott -- Charlie and Dennis -- blow him away statistically. As I said, Walt Williams was better in his junior/senior years statistically.

It's all a matter of perspective. Len Bias was a great player -- but the ACC has had a lot of great players. Bias might rank in the top two or three in terms of spectacular players -- but when you judge overall play, he's not in the top 10.

As for Sampson, we'll save that for another debate. Great player, but the greatest choker in ACC history.

OldPhiKap
06-21-2014, 08:02 AM
Len Bias led his team in rebounding in 1986. Averaging 7 per games:

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/maryland/1986.html


Virtually tied for team lead in rebounds the year before, and second on the team in both blocks and steals:

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/maryland/1985.html


Obviously, led in scoring both years.



The fact that Bias "only" averaged over 20 PPG for a season once -- before we pass that, let's first acknowledge that 20ppg for a season is an impressive feat in and of itself. He averaged 19 PPG in 1985 as well. As a quick comparison, Johnny Dawkins -- my all-time favorite -- "only" averaged 19.3 PPG in '86 ( http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/duke/1986.html ) and 18.8 the year before ( http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/duke/1985.html). And as we all know, the only man who could keep MJ under 20 PPG was Dean Smith.


As far as Maryland's conference record, well -- that was one of the most competitive period in ACC history top to bottom. Duke, State, Virginia, UNC, and Georgia Tech were all at or near the top of their games. The GT roster is crazy good, especially, and we had a ton of upperclass leadership those two years.

Reilly
06-21-2014, 08:32 AM
Maryland's national finishes, per S-R:

1986: 22/283
1985: 16/282
1984: 9/275
1983: 48/274

Consensus 2d team A-A (1985) ...
Consensus 1st team A-A (1986) ...

54% FG career and 80% FT career ... 2149 points

Len's efficient scoring and his spectacular plays are what made him an all-time great. I think your "never won a NPOY" award and "team wasn't so hot" are not very strong criteria. His team achieved -- #9, #16, and #22 in the country last three years per above. I think your 2x 20 ppg tipping point is silly nonsense.

Bias was voted *the* best player in the ACC two years running, in the most competitive/greatest era of ACC hoops (per K).

I imagine our disagreement is definitional. Pose this question to Coach K or Jay Bilas: "Was Len Bias one of the all-time great ACC players?" Heck, I guess anyone could pose that to Bilas via twitter. I think they'd say yes.

Bias was included on the top 50 players of the first 50 years of the ACC.

What is your definition of "an all-time great ACC player"? How many players does it include? You can make up your own definition, so there's no way to be wrong about that. One person could say "well, anybody who was voted player of the year is an all-time great." Reasonable criterion. Bias qualified. Someone could say "well, anybody drafted top 5 in the NBA." Check. Someone could say "anybody chosen player of the year multiple times" (oooh, rare air, yet Bias still qualifies).

You may say: any ACC player who was selected NPOY by an organization I consider valid, scored at least 20 ppg at least 2 seasons, and whose team won some sort of championship (ACC or national) when he played.

How long is that list and who's on it?

I would imagine whoever ends up on it would meet any reasonable layman's definition of "an all-time great in the ACC." Thing is, if somebody scores 2100+ points, shoots 54% and 80%, keeps his team in the top 20 nationally for 3 years running, is twice considered the best player in the conference in the conference's strongest era, and is drafted #2 overall (I guess the Celtics thought he did some things well), then that person would meet a reasonable layman's definition of "an all-time great in the ACC" too. Of course, you may disagree -- doesn't mean you're right.

(oh, my initial list did include David Thompson)

OldPhiKap
06-21-2014, 08:38 AM
Time to edit expired while cooking breakfast, so my last point:

You are correct, AFAIK, that Bias did not win a national award. It was interesting that in 1986, Dawkins was named national POY while Bias named not only the ACC POY but also the ACC Athlete of the Year. Now, I am not going to put myself in a position of ever arguing against JD for anything. But with Len Bias, you could make a good argument that the folks who saw him the most knew the best. (As I am sure Oly remembers, but some on this board may not -- cable tv was still in its infancy and ESPN either had lumberjack competitions or eventually Big East basketball. "the Deuce" was still six or seven years from launching. Duke had several nationally-televised games that year, and it was a big deal when you played a Saturday CBS game. I would bet that Md probably did not have a single nationally-televised game that year).

Here is a Turtle
06-21-2014, 09:29 AM
I think he was not just a spectacular player, but an all-time great player. Do I think he is a top 10 ACC player ever. I'm not sure about that. I would have to think about it, but he would definitely be in the conversation.

My problem with knocking Len Bias because he did not win a national award is that there is so much more to what player is better than just his stats. Let's use another Maryland player that we are all familiar with that did win a national award for a comparison: Greivis Vasquez. Both were first round picks. Both are high on the list of all time ACC scorers.

Bias had a better senior year than Vasquez had but Vasquez had arguably a more consistent, well-rounded career (4x more assists than Bias, almost 5 rebounds a game, only player to have 2,000 points, 600 rebounds, 700 assists in the ACC). Vasquez won the Bob Cousy Award his senior year over John Wall, Evan Turner, and Jon Scheyer, but Bias never won a national award. Vasquez was a great player, but you seldom hear people saying that he was better than Bias even though you could make an argument that he was.

I think in part what makes people think he is an all-time great was what he did for those teams. Bias led Maryland to back-to-back sweet Sixteens, and if you take him off the team, Maryland is probably middling at best those years. Vasquez never got to the sweet sixteen, even though 2010 was one of the better Maryland teams in the past decade. I think post-season success, being a two time All-American, and just all-around domination on top teams on their home courts makes him great. Was he spectacular, yes. But I don't think stats tell everything. Bias was great.

However, I do feel he was in a Jordan mold and would have been one of those players that would have been a better pro player than a college player.

Out of curiosity Olympic Fan, what would your list of top ten ACC players be?

OldPhiKap
06-21-2014, 09:31 AM
I tweeted Jay Bilas, asking what it was like to play against Len Bias. Jay's response:

@JayBilas: Shock and Awe. He was awesome.

davekay1971
06-21-2014, 10:42 AM
The above argument seems to me more about how we define "all time great".

If you're talking "in the argument for greatest player in ACC history", I don't think Bias is on that list. That list starts with David Thompson and includes maybe Laettner (probably the greatest clutch/NCAAT player in ACC history...not nearly as talented as Thompson, but he had a truly unparalleled college career), Tim Duncan (a 4 year stud in college, obvious post-college career of distinction), Grant Hill (combining scoring, rebounding, passing, defense (wow), leadership, and team success, I humbly submit no player in ACC history, including Thompson, was a better ALL-AROUND player than Grant), and a couple guys in powder blue (only pre-AFAM UNC players are eligible for this discussion).

Extending "all time great" to include guys who were undeniably great, and stand out as stars in ACC history, but probably wouldn't be considered as realistically comparable to David Thompson (which is the criteria for "all time greatest"), Bias has to be in that group, along with guys like Battier, Jay Will, Bobby Hurley, some more guys in powder blue, and a smattering of other greats from around the ACC.

But Oly is certainly right that Bias stands out in the history of the ACC more for the manner of his death, and the way it highlighted the danger of cocaine abuse in particular, than anything he did on the court. If he hadn't been a great player, his death wouldn't have carried the weight it did. But he was great, and his death put the "cocaine is harmless" myth of the 80s to rest the same way Magic Johnson's announcement that he had HIV did to the myth that "AIDS is a disease of gay people". In fact, for being roughly in the same era, those two shocks to the American collect consciousness stand out as two of the seminal wake-up calls of that time. Bias wasn't nearly the household name that Magic was (nor was he nearly the player), but the effect was similar. Both events caught the attention of people who didn't follow sports, and both fundamentally changed our societal view of a prominent 1980s issue, and both define the player's career at least as much as their on-court performance did.

Bob Green
06-21-2014, 11:05 AM
...what would your list of top ten ACC players be?

Is there room for two Terps on an ACC Top 10 list? I say no and John Lucas goes on my list before Len Bias.

Reilly
06-21-2014, 12:15 PM
... But Oly is certainly right that Bias stands out in the history of the ACC more for the manner of his death, and the way it highlighted the danger of cocaine abuse in particular, than anything he did on the court. ...

Not for me. What stands out for me is the elevation he got on his baseline jumper. And what he did to Carolina: Carolina was *the* juggernaut for that decade 1977-86, Dean dome opens, Dean in his prime, 26-1 as recounted above ...

Henderson
06-21-2014, 01:00 PM
Is there room for two Terps on an ACC Top 10 list? I say no and John Lucas goes on my list before Len Bias.

If one has to choose, I disagree with that choice. Bias could just take over games. Lucas was an outstanding guard, but he wasn't like Bias.

Unfortunately for both of them, Lucas and Bias shared an interest.

BTW, John Lucas was born in Durham.

Olympic Fan
06-21-2014, 01:16 PM
I think he was not just a spectacular player, but an all-time great player. Do I think he is a top 10 ACC player ever. I'm not sure about that. I would have to think about it, but he would definitely be in the conversation.

...

Out of curiosity Olympic Fan, what would your list of top ten ACC players be?

I agree that we are mired in definitions ... I've consistently said that Bias is a great player ... But I'd argue that he's not top 10 ACC all-time. I would put him somewhere in the second 10. Guys, that's not bad ...

The top 10 (IM-not-so-HO) -- BASED ENTIRELY ON THEIR COLLEGIATE PRODUCTION

1. David Thompson -- not argument ... no debate
2. Christian Laettner -- the greatest NCAA performer in ACC history
3. Tyler Hansbrough -- hate the guy, but for sheer consistent production, he can't be matched
4. Len Chappell -- almost forgotten today, but two-time ACC POY, averaged 25 points and 14 rebounds for his career and led Wake to two ACC titles and its only Final Four
5. Tim Duncan -- two national POYs ... two ACC titles (Wake has four ACC titles in its history -- two with Chappell, two with Duncan)
6. Art Heyman -- the ACC's first consensus NPOY, led Duke to its first Final Four (averaged 25 points and 11 rebounds for his career -- three times unanimous first-team All-ACC ... only Thompson and Hansbrough have done that)
7. Ralph Sampson -- if he hadn't been a choker ... but he did win three national and ACC POY awards
8. Phil Ford -- the greatest point guard in ACC history ... twice first-team AA ... 1978 NPOY ... Starting PG on Olympic Gold Medal team
9. Lennie Rosenbluth -- career average of 27 points, 10 rebounds -- led UNC to the ACC's first national title
10. Charlie Scott -- not the ACC or the Big Four's first black player, but the first GREAT black player (averaged 22.1 points, 7.1 rebounds and 3.3 assists for his career) ... a key player on two Final Four teams and a key player on the 1968 Olympic Gold Medal team ... denied two ACC POY by racist voters

Just behind them, a bunch of great players -- Michael Jordan, JJ Redick, Grant Hill, Shane Battier, James Worthy, Larry Miller, Tommy Burleson, John Lucas, John Roche, Charlie Davis, Ron Shavlik, Dickie Hemric, Jason Williams (his career accomplishment at Duke are almost exactly the same as Jordan's at UNC), Dennis Scott ... and Len Bias. Not sure of the order of the second group, but Bias is not the first guy in line.

I respect the voters -- both the ACC guys and the national voters -- and their opinions. But I think they are wrong at times. The ACC voters were wrong when they picked John Roche as ACC player of the year twice over Scott and when they picked Steve Vacendak over Verga and Marin. Which group was wrong when they voted Bias the 1986 ACC POY and Dawkins the NPOY? Heck in 1985, Bias won ACC POY, but was merely second-team All-American while Dawkins was first-team. Which was the greater player in 2002 -- ACC POY Juan Dixon or the consensus national POY Jason Williams? Somebody was wrong somewhere.

[Note: while I can see Bias beating Dawkins for the 1985 ACC POY award when both teams finished 8-6 in the ACC and their stats were similar; I would argue that the voters were wrong in 1986. Yes, Bias averaged 23.2 ppg to 20.2 for Dawkins, but Dawkins shot higher from the floor, has twice as many assists and was a superb defender -- much better than Bias. More importantly, while Bias was leading an underachieving Maryland team to a 6-8 ACC record (Bias wasn't the only stud on that team -- it also included Keith Gatlin, Tony Massenburg, Derrick Lewis and Jeff Baxter), Dawkins was leading Duke to the ACC regular season and tournament titles and to a No. 1 national ranking. It was a breakthrough year for a program that had been down and out when Dawkins arrived. He SHOULD have been the ACC POY. IMO, the voters were wrong).

I keep trying to fit Bias in the puzzle ... last night, I started thinking about him and Michael Jordan.

Now, Jordan was a great player at UNC. He only averaged 20 points once (barely), but he was a two-time first-team All-American and the 1984 national player of the year. He did hit the winning shot in the 1982 national title game, but aside from his freshman year, didn't have a lot of postseason success.

Because of his pro success, a lot of half-educated people try to suggest that Jordan is the greatest or among the greatest players in ACC history. He's the greatest ACC pro product without a doubt, but his production at UNC puts him in the second rank of ACC stars (IMO).

Bias was not quite as good at Maryland as Jordan was at UNC. Close, but not quite as good. But because of his freakish athleticism, he had a chance to blossom in the pros and become something close to what Jordan became in the NBA. If he doesn't kill him self by sniffing coke (and mixing it with booze), I think Bias could have become a perennial all-star and a potential Hall of Famer. He had better pro potential that many of the guys who had better college careers.

But he didn't because he killed himself. That's the tragedy of Len Bias -- the waste of that potential. He's not alone -- the great David Thompson got off to a great start in the pros, but ended it prematurely with his drug use (supposedly he was doped up when he fell down the stairs at Studio 54 and ripped his knee). Phil Ford was rookie of the year in the NBA -- then killed his career with his drinking. John Lucas let drugs ruin a great pro career.

Bias was great ... buy he could have been an all-time great and he wasn't -- that's his tragedy.

PS Reilly -- my apology for missing DT on your list. I can only offer a late night and my passion for the subject as an excuse.

Here is a Turtle
06-21-2014, 01:46 PM
Is there room for two Terps on an ACC Top 10 list? I say no and John Lucas goes on my list before Len Bias.

I don't think in the top 10. Top 20 I could see two on there. But I agree with putting Lucas and maybe Dixon ahead of Bias. Off the top of my head, my top three would be similar to Olympic Fan's. I'd probably have Sampson 4th and Duncan 5th though. 6-10 I would have to think hard about.

Bob Green
06-21-2014, 02:29 PM
If one has to choose, I disagree with that choice. Bias could just take over games. Lucas was an outstanding guard, but he wasn't like Bias.

Unfortunately for both of them, Lucas and Bias shared an interest.

BTW, John Lucas was born in Durham.

My counter to your disagreement is Bias had to take over games, while Lucas only had to orchestrate the game. I certainly hope your last sentence was not intended for my edification. Duke fans of my generation are definitely aware of where Lucas was born.

Reilly
06-21-2014, 03:28 PM
Photos of Bias from SI (one caption w/ the thoughts of K):

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/1103/len.bias.rare.photos/content.1.html

Kimist
06-21-2014, 04:10 PM
Len Bias played four seasons at the University of Maryland.

k

ChicagoCrazy84
06-21-2014, 07:41 PM
Is it strange that I saw this thread and immediately got Len Bias mixed up with Len Elmore?

Henderson
06-21-2014, 08:38 PM
Is it strange that I saw this thread and immediately got Len Bias mixed up with Len Elmore?

Not crazy. Lynyrd Skynyrd would have been an issue.

OldPhiKap
06-21-2014, 08:57 PM
Is it strange that I saw this thread and immediately got Len Bias mixed up with Len Elmore?

Len Elmore has a clear bias. So I can see that.

brevity
06-21-2014, 09:08 PM
Is it strange that I saw this thread and immediately got Len Bias mixed up with Len Elmore?

Wisecracks aside, I don't blame you. RIP threads are newsworthy, and this thread... isn't. It's an interesting thread with a bad title. "Len Bias, 28 Years Later" would make more sense.

Always found it weird that Maryland has a monopoly on the name "Len." If you knew nothing about recent college basketball, you could still make an educated guess where Alex Len played. (Same with Fab Melo and Desmond Hubert.)

Newton_14
06-22-2014, 01:05 PM
Wisecracks aside, I don't blame you. RIP threads are newsworthy, and this thread... isn't. It's an interesting thread with a bad title. "Len Bias, 28 Years Later" would make more sense.

Always found it weird that Maryland has a monopoly on the name "Len." If you knew nothing about recent college basketball, you could still make an educated guess where Alex Len played. (Same with Fab Melo and Desmond Hubert.)


I am just disappointed that what was obviously put up as a thread to pay homage to a great player who lost his life far to young, was turned into attacking his character an arguing that he wasn't that good anyway. That should not have happened. The kid was a great player and made a terrible mistake that cost him his life.

Thatnks to Henderson for trying to do the right thing with good intentions, but at this point the thread should just be closed in my opinion.

Edouble
06-22-2014, 03:15 PM
I am just disappointed that what was obviously put up as a thread to pay homage to a great player who lost his life far to young, was turned into attacking his character an arguing that he wasn't that good anyway. That should not have happened. The kid was a great player and made a terrible mistake that cost him his life.

Thatnks to Henderson for trying to do the right thing with good intentions, but at this point the thread should just be closed in my opinion.

Who attacked his character? I've read the whole thread and I don't recall anyone attacking his character. If someone did, it was maybe like one post.

I hope the thread remains open, because I have enjoyed reading about this player's greatness that I was too young to witness.

I find the debate as to his place in the ACC pantheon to be fascinating. If he was one of the Top 10 ACC players ever during his prime, the ensuing 30 year's worth of players have clearly challenged Bias and his legacy.

Reilly
06-22-2014, 10:52 PM
more statistical analysis

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=4011

Olympic Fan
06-23-2014, 11:31 AM
more statistical analysis

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=4011

Appreciate the link ... and while I'm not aware of the author and his credentials, he did make the point I have been trying to make -- that while Bias was a great player and a great prospect, the tragic circumstances of his death have warped our perception of him:

However, in college Bias didn't rebound or contribute in non-scoring areas as much as his fellow prospects (historical, modern, you name it) did, and his NCAA efficiency numbers were sub-par. I'm not saying he would be a bust or even that it would have been impossible for him to be a star, but I am saying that we might have allowed Bias' tragic and untimely passing to distort the way we viewed his potential.

PS I'm not sure whether I'm the poster that Newton thinks was "attacking his character" or not, but I don't think it is out of line to remind people that Bias DID die of a drug overdose and to point out that his death did have a tremendous impact on how the public viewed athletes and drug use. Indeed, in a historical context, that's probably his greatest legacy.

I also think there is a difference in talking about a death in the immediate aftermath. Personally, I try never say or post bad or hurtful things about someone who just died -- even when I think they are scum (and I am NOT saying Bias was scum -- just a foolish young man who made a tragic mistake). But Len Bias died 28 years ago. At some point, it's got to be fair game to discuss a historical figure without worrying about hurting somebody's feelings. I think the statute of limitations has run out in Bias' case -- I'm not going to lie or smear him, but I think an honest discussion of what really happened ... and an honest debate about his stature as a player (which I think we've had in this thread) are fair and reasonable.

Reilly
06-23-2014, 12:13 PM
Appreciate the link ... and while I'm not aware of the author and his credentials ...

Apparently works with Nate Silver at fivethirtyeight.com:
http://www.sports-reference.com/blog/2013/12/neil-paine-joining-fivethirtyeight/

He did make the point you were making. I still maintain that Bias is/was one of the "all-time greats" in the ACC by virtue of his two player of the year awards and top 2 NBA draft status. I do not believe my assessment is warped at all by Bias's early death. It may be warped --or, informed -- by my having been exposed to the DC media on a daily basis and very closely following the ACC during Bias's four years.

Henderson
06-23-2014, 04:36 PM
Apparently works with Nate Silver at fivethirtyeight.com:
http://www.sports-reference.com/blog/2013/12/neil-paine-joining-fivethirtyeight/

He did make the point you were making. I still maintain that Bias is/was one of the "all-time greats" in the ACC by virtue of his two player of the year awards and top 2 NBA draft status. I do not believe my assessment is warped at all by Bias's early death. It may be warped --or, informed -- by my having been exposed to the DC media on a daily basis and very closely following the ACC during Bias's four years.

Agreed. Some attributes just don't translate into quant-speak. I think people who saw him play his last two years, overall, probably see Len Bias differently than people just looking at charts and graphs and complicated statistical formulas. Shortly after he died (or maybe right before?) Larry Bird said he'd give up his summer to practice with Len Bias, something (according to Bird) he wouldn't say about any other rookie. Bird knew Bias was a special talent. Even at the time, I remember clearly that there was this sense that Secretariat had died. It's not just nostalgia.

Newton_14
06-23-2014, 08:23 PM
Agreed. Some attributes just don't translate into quant-speak. I think people who saw him play his last two years, overall, probably see Len Bias differently than people just looking at charts and graphs and complicated statistical formulas. Shortly after he died (or maybe right before?) Larry Bird said he'd give up his summer to practice with Len Bias, something (according to Bird) he wouldn't say about any other rookie. Bird knew Bias was a special talent. Even at the time, I remember clearly that there was this sense that Secretariat had died. It's not just nostalgia.

Totally agree and your memory is correct on Bird. That's exactly what he intended to do. His death has not caused his legend to grow. That's hogwash. The guy was phenomenal and a special talent as you opine above. And the fact that he died by foolishly taking a drug he should not have taken doesn't make him a bad kid with horrible character.(It aint like he is the only ACC player to ever ingest that drug into his body either. Let's not be naive there. He made a big mistake. He paid the ultimate price. He was still a transcendent talent destined for great things.