New theory: The Big 10 needs maryland/Rutgers more than they need it

[wilson]

Stewart Mandel of Sports Illustrated (always a good college football read) has a new long-form piece (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20140618/big-ten-expansion/?eref=sihp)out suggesting that the B1G badly needed maryland and Rutgers due to declining demographics in the Midwest. In fact, he goes so far as to suggest that the conference is "fighting for survival," citing commissioner Jim Delany's discussion of would-be poaching from other leagues (especially the ACC) as a main reason for the additions.
Interesting question here: Both maryland and Rutgers have said they're making the move because their athletic departments are, financially speaking, sinking ships. Now, Mandel suggests that the B1G itself is, if not a sinking ship, at least badly listing. So will two weaknesses result in one new strength? People in Indianapolis (and New York...among other things, Mandel reveals that the B1G has opened a second league office in the Big Apple, calling itself a "two-region league"), College Park, and Piscataway are certainly hoping so. Folks in the B1G's traditional footprint, though, are less impressed. It's no secret that Ohio State is tiring of being a football standout defending itself against the reputation of the increasing mediocrity around it. Mandel also points out that at Michigan, season ticket subscriptions are way down this year...apparently fans aren't all that excited about a home slate that includes conference games against Minnesota, Penn State, Indiana, and Maryland.
I know we've discussed the conference carousel ad nauseam, but this is an interesting new take. To me, the most telling line of the piece is this quote from Delany:

We came to the conclusion there was more risk in sitting still than there was in exploring other opportunities.It's interesting to me that he's speaking of risk vs. more risk, as opposed to "exciting opportunities" or some other such institution-speak. That doesn't sound much like an energized leader pounding the pavement to excite his constituents; rather, it sounds more like an embattled general trying to rally weary and/or unimpressed troops.

[Kedsy]

Stewart Mandel of Sports Illustrated (always a good college football read) has a new long-form piece (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20140618/big-ten-expansion/?eref=sihp)out suggesting that the B1G badly needed maryland and Rutgers due to declining demographics in the Midwest. In fact, he goes so far as to suggest that the conference is "fighting for survival," citing commissioner Jim Delany's discussion of would-be poaching from other leagues (especially the ACC) as a main reason for the additions.
Interesting question here: Both maryland and Rutgers have said they're making the move because their athletic departments are, financially speaking, sinking ships. Now, Mandel suggests that the B1G itself is, if not a sinking ship, at least badly listing. So will two weaknesses result in one new strength? People in Indianapolis (and New York...among other things, Mandel reveals that the B1G has opened a second league office in the Big Apple, calling itself a "two-region league"), College Park, and Piscataway are certainly hoping so. Folks in the B1G's traditional footprint, though, are less impressed. It's no secret that Ohio State is tiring of being a football standout defending itself against the reputation of the increasing mediocrity around it. Mandel also points out that at Michigan, season ticket subscriptions are way down this year...apparently fans aren't all that excited about a home slate that includes conference games against Minnesota, Penn State, Indiana, and Maryland.
I know we've discussed the conference carousel ad nauseam, but this is an interesting new take. To me, the most telling line of the piece is this quote from Delany:
It's interesting to me that he's speaking of risk vs. more risk, as opposed to "exciting opportunities" or some other such institution-speak. That doesn't sound much like an energized leader pounding the pavement to excite his constituents; rather, it sounds more like an embattled general trying to rally weary and/or unimpressed troops.

If the Big 10 is really "fighting for survival," and they chose to bandage the wound with Rutgers and Maryland, might be time to alert the undertaker. However, my guess is it's not nearly that serious.

[sagegrouse]

Andrew S. Grove, long-time Intel CEO: Only the Paranoid Survive

Who's to say that Jim Delany's being a little fearful of the future isn't the right approach?

[-bdbd]

Speaking of MD, that "MD Reminisces" article on front page is really kinda scary, almost creepy, like the girl in High School who wites the ten-page letter, complete with dozens of erased sentences and rewrites, about why she really doesn't care about you or that you broke up with her...

Anybody ever see the movie. "Fatal Attraction"??! Eeek! :eek:

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/2014/6/21/5829664/terps-reminisce-about-hating-duke

[Duvall]

Speaking of MD, that "MD Reminisces" article on front page is really kinda scary, almost creepy, like the girl in High School who wites the ten-page letter, complete with dozens of erased sentences and rewrites, about why she really doesn't care about you or that you broke up with her...

Anybody ever see the movie. "Fatal Attraction"??! Eeek! :eek:

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/2014/6/21/5829664/terps-reminisce-about-hating-duke

Maryland, Maryland...is that one of those square states over by Iowa?

[arnie]

Speaking of MD, that "MD Reminisces" article on front page is really kinda scary, almost creepy, like the girl in High School who wites the ten-page letter, complete with dozens of erased sentences and rewrites, about why she really doesn't care about you or that you broke up with her...

Anybody ever see the movie. "Fatal Attraction"??! Eeek! :eek:

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/2014/6/21/5829664/terps-reminisce-about-hating-duke

When they leave Big 10 & join Conf USA , the parting shots at Northwestern and Collins should be fun.

[Here is a Turtle]

Speaking of MD, that "MD Reminisces" article on front page is really kinda scary, almost creepy, like the girl in High School who wites the ten-page letter, complete with dozens of erased sentences and rewrites, about why she really doesn't care about you or that you broke up with her...

Anybody ever see the movie. "Fatal Attraction"??! Eeek! :eek:

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/2014/6/21/5829664/terps-reminisce-about-hating-duke

I saw that and got irritated because it came off like much research was not done. Someone just went over, saw Duke. Read a few comments and called it a day. Testudo Times is doing that for every ACC School. It's not just Duke. We are going in alphabetical order getting last thoughts in. BC was three days ago. Clemson after that.Then Duke. By the time it was posted here, we had already moved on to Florida State because it was one day each. BC's blog actually had a similar situation where they recognized it after their day expired. They are also doing a short primer on each B1G school.

Seriously, all the Maryland reminiscing posts I've seen on this forum (Len Bias post a few threads below this one), bashing posts (a couple above me), and all the Maryland/Big Ten reporting I've seen on the front page (this one for example), I could easily go and say DBR is trying to make its fans see that it was a terrible move when we won't know if that is the case and post a bunch of links there to back it up. I could say that they would miss us or whatever I wanted to deduce from those posts, and I'm sure some members would call it disingenuous or try to defend the position as well.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I saw that and got irritated because it came off like much research was not done. Someone just went over, saw Duke. Read a few comments and called it a day. Testudo Times is doing that for every ACC School. It's not just Duke. We are going in alphabetical order getting last thoughts in. BC was three days ago. Clemson after that.Then Duke. By the time it was posted here, we had already moved on to Florida State because it was one day each. BC's blog actually had a similar situation where they recognized it after their day expired. They are also doing a short primer on each B1G school.

Seriously, all the Maryland reminiscing posts I've seen on this forum (Len Bias post a few threads below this one), bashing posts (a couple above me), and all the Maryland/Big Ten reporting I've seen on the front page (this one for example), I could easily go and say DBR is trying to make its fans see that it was a terrible move when we won't know if that is the case and post a bunch of links there to back it up. I could say that they would miss us or whatever I wanted to deduce from those posts, and I'm sure some members would call it disingenuous or try to defend the position as well.

I see where yo are coming from. But really, it's a Duke site here. Of course we pop over, see our school, post a link.

I believe, truth be told, that everyone on this site would recognize on some level that losing Maryland sucks. I think we all deal with the frustration in different ways.

It is sort of like when you head off to college - even though your little brother is annoying, you miss him. Sometimes. When you need someone to pick on or do dirty work.

[Reilly]

... It is sort of like when you head off to college - even though your little brother is annoying, you miss him ...

Ah, yes, those annoying little rugrats who curse you with open hostility and bodily threat every moment of the day, throw glassware at every meal, and light all the furniture on fire. God love 'em.

[hudlow]

"The Big 10 needs Maryland/Rutgers more than they need it."

That's kinda like buying cheap "bandaids" at the dollar store.....

[OldPhiKap]

"The Big 10 needs Maryland/Rutgers more than they need it."

That's kinda like buying cheap "bandaids" at the dollar store.....

Codependency is an illness. They should all seek treatment.

[wilson]

Aside from the general agreement that Maryland and most of their fans are disgusting and I wish them good riddance, I have one small quibble with the article:
Since when does a 14-year NBA career averaging 13 and 7 a game equal "couldn't hack it in the league," as they claim for Christian Laettner? He played more NBA seasons than Juan Dixon and Greivis Vasquez (the two greatest Maryland players of the last quarter century) combined, and easily outproduced both.

[howardlander]

I believe, truth be told, that everyone on this site would recognize on some level that losing Maryland sucks. I think we all deal with the frustration in different ways.


I don't. Really I don't. They are not a great academic school, they've mostly been bad in football and their basketball program has been inconsistent. Plus it's actually physically dangerous for Duke fans to attend a basketball game there, to the point where Coach K doesn't bring his family. At some level a rivalry stops being good natured and fun and becomes something worse. For me, Maryland is past that point.

Howard

[hudlow]

I don't. Really I don't. They are not a great academic school, they've mostly been bad in football and their basketball program has been inconsistent. Plus it's actually physically dangerous for Duke fans to attend a basketball game there, to the point where Coach K doesn't bring his family. At some level a rivalry stops being good natured and fun and becomes something worse. For me, Maryland is past that point.

Howard


Agreed....I wish The Terps the best that mediocrity has to offer in their new endeavor.

hud

[Here is a Turtle]

I don't. Really I don't. They are not a great academic school, they've mostly been bad in football and their basketball program has been inconsistent. Plus it's actually physically dangerous for Duke fans to attend a basketball game there, to the point where Coach K doesn't bring his family. At some level a rivalry stops being good natured and fun and becomes something worse. For me, Maryland is past that point.

Howard

Define great. Because Maryland is a top school as far as a lot of people are concerned. Is it Duke or Virginia, no. But to say it is not a great academic school when there are schools like FSU in the conference that doesn't even crack the top 100 in a lot of polls is rather disingenuous.

My main problem with the article is the assumption that Maryland fans are incapable of moving on when I know that is not the case. Don't let the media fool you, a good number are over it. Again, I could take a bunch of articles and comments here and deduce that you're not over it and you would argue it's false.

Also wilson, Vasquez may have a long career. You don't know that yet. What we do know is he has led the league in assists before. He is capable of being around for a long time.

[wilson]

I don't. Really I don't. They are not a great academic school, they've mostly been bad in football and their basketball program has been inconsistent. Plus it's actually physically dangerous for Duke fans to attend a basketball game there, to the point where Coach K doesn't bring his family. At some level a rivalry stops being good natured and fun and becomes something worse. For me, Maryland is past that point.

HowardI agree. The only opposing fans who've ever gotten in my face to curse at me have been Maryland fans (multiple times, the first when I was all of 13 years old). The only opposing fans who have ever thrown things at me have been Maryland fans (again, multiple times). The only fans I know of who make a habit of audibly chanting obscenities on national television are Maryland fans. I will not miss the Twerps.

[wilson]

Also wilson, Vasquez may have a long career. You don't know that yet. What we do know is he has led the league in assists before. He is capable of being around for a long time.A fair point. But really, my point is just this: Laettner wasn't an NBA superstar, but to look at his career length and stats and claim that he "couldn't hack it" is downright silly.

[Here is a Turtle]

I agree. The only opposing fans who've ever gotten in my face to curse at me have been Maryland fans (multiple times, the first when I was all of 13 years old). The only opposing fans who have ever thrown things at me have been Maryland fans (again, multiple times). The only fans I know of who make a habit of audibly chanting obscenities on national television are Maryland fans. I will not miss the Twerps.

Really? My roommate has been cused out by Tar Heel fans when he wore a Maryland shirt to a Tar Heel game with his girlfriend who goes to UNC. I hear obscenities being yelled at most schools, including Duke's over the television. I have been cussed out by Clemson fans, Virginia fans, Michigan fans, and West Virginia fans (who are the absolute worst might I add). It's not just Maryland that cusses in the ACC. I have heard every school in the ACC at one point or another yell obscenities or in Vasquez's case flat out racist stuff.

Please stop acting like Maryland is the only one guilty of this.

I do agree with you about the Lattner couldn't hack it stuff though. Thought he did fine in the league.

[roywhite]

Really? My roommate has been cused out by Tar Heel fans when he wore a Maryland shirt to a Tar Heel game with his girlfriend who goes to UNC. I hear obscenities being yelled at most schools, including Duke's over the television. I have been cussed out by Clemson fans, Virginia fans, Michigan fans, and West Virginia fans (who are the absolute worst might I add). It's not just Maryland that cusses in the ACC. I have heard every school in the ACC at one point or another yell obscenities or in Vasquez's case flat out racist stuff.

Please stop acting like Maryland is the only one guilty of this.

I do agree with you about the Lattner couldn't hack it stuff though. Thought he did fine in the league.

Oh, okay. Those Terp fans really aren't that bad. (sarcasm)

See ya.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Really? My roommate has been cused out by Tar Heel fans when he wore a Maryland shirt to a Tar Heel game with his girlfriend who goes to UNC. I hear obscenities being yelled at most schools, including Duke's over the television. I have been cussed out by Clemson fans, Virginia fans, Michigan fans, and West Virginia fans (who are the absolute worst might I add). It's not just Maryland that cusses in the ACC. I have heard every school in the ACC at one point or another yell obscenities or in Vasquez's case flat out racist stuff.

Please stop acting like Maryland is the only one guilty of this.

I do agree with you about the Lattner couldn't hack it stuff though. Thought he did fine in the league.
Turtle, it's about the degree and amount of venom spewed. No other school has come within a hundred miles of acting the way your entire crowd has acted during many a basketball game. Forget the obscenities for a minute and reflect on how much you all relished Neal's purposeful take out of Nolan Smith. Laughter, cheering, glee (probably still to this day). That says it all.

For my part, all I have to say to Maryland is... watch out that door doesn't hit ya'll in the rear.

[Here is a Turtle]

Turtle, it's about the degree and amount of venom spewed. No other school has come within a hundred miles of acting the way your entire crowd has acted during many a basketball game. Forget the obscenities for a minute and reflect on how much you all relished Neal's purposeful take out of Nolan Smith. Laughter, cheering, glee (probably still to this day). That says it all.

For my part, all I have to say to Maryland is... watch out that door doesn't hit ya'll in the rear.

Here is my problem with the whole thing: every single fanbase, Duke's included, have fans that are douches. Every single fanbase has fans that makes comments to other fanbases that would be viewed as vitriolic and mean-spirited. Every single fanbase has fans like that. You can argue percentage of fans or whatever, but at the end, you cannot convince me that there is no fanbase that does not have its issues. I have dealt with fans from other schools every bit as bad if not worse as you would deem ours.

I have relatives who dealt with Penn State and Virginia fans making fun of Maryland about Len Bias' death shortly after he passed, and they hate those schools to this day. I would deem that pretty terrible.

[hudlow]

Here is my problem with the whole thing: every single fanbase, Duke's included, have fans that are douches. Every single fanbase has fans that makes comments to other fanbases that would be viewed as vitriolic and mean-spirited. Every single fanbase has fans like that. You can argue percentage of fans or whatever, but at the end, you cannot convince me that there is no fanbase that does not have its issues. I have dealt with fans from other schools every bit as bad if not worse as you would deem ours.

I have relatives who dealt with Penn State and Virginia fans making fun of Maryland about Len Bias' death shortly after he passed, and they hate those schools to this day. I would deem that pretty terrible.


Take heart, as you leave, that you were the best.

hud

[howardlander]

Define great. Because Maryland is a top school as far as a lot of people are concerned. Is it Duke or Virginia, no. But to say it is not a great academic school when there are schools like FSU in the conference that doesn't even crack the top 100 in a lot of polls is rather disingenuous.


Not great means not great. Here are the US News and Report Rankings for ACC schools (includes ties in the rankings): Maryland is ahead of exactly 4 ACC schools and tied with 3 others. It means Maryland doesn't bring enough academically to the conference to offset the obvious goonery of their fans.

Duke 7
Notre Dame 18
UVA 23
Wake 23
UNC 30
BC 31
Georgia Tech 36
Miami 47
Clemson 62
Syracuse 62
Maryland 62
Pitt 62
Virginia Tech 69
FSU 91
NC State 101
Louisville 161

[OldPhiKap]

If more Md fans we're like Turtle, we would be sorry to see them go. Seriously.

And I hope Turtle still posts.

FWIW, though -- my experience with hostile fans tilts disproportionately towards Md, especially after 2001. By far. Not even close.

Wish that we're not so, but -- there it is.

Perhaps rational fans like Turtle are outweighed by a vehement minority. But since Gary stoked those fires instead of containing it, the whole thing is long past out of hand.

$0.02

[devildeac]

Here is my problem with the whole thing: every single fanbase, Duke's included, have fans that are douches. Every single fanbase has fans that makes comments to other fanbases that would be viewed as vitriolic and mean-spirited. Every single fanbase has fans like that. You can argue percentage of fans or whatever, but at the end, you cannot convince me that there is no fanbase that does not have its issues. I have dealt with fans from other schools every bit as bad if not worse as you would deem ours.

I have relatives who dealt with Penn State and Virginia fans making fun of Maryland about Len Bias' death shortly after he passed, and they hate those schools to this day. I would deem that pretty terrible.

I can't recall any other fan base who had 500 (1000? More?) t-shirts printed and worn in their student section with F**K DUKE on them and displayed them prominently and proudly on espn and then hid behind the "freedom of speech" or "kids will be kids" or "we'll have to talk to our lawyers about that" like Gary and the AD did at the time of its occurrence.

I also can't recall any other fan base who repeatedly chanted "f**k you, JJ" or made sexually derogatory remarks about his sister/s during games either.

I hope Turtle keeps posting here because s/he has taken a lot of crap but has been restrained and civil with the replies.

As for the rest, I'll join in the chorus of "ahhhhhhhhhh, see ya!"

[wilson]

I can't recall any other fan base who had 500 (1000? More?) t-shirts printed and worn in their student section with F**K DUKE on them and displayed them prominently and proudly on espn and then hid behind the "freedom of speech" or "kids will be kids" or "we'll have to talk to our lawyers about that" like Gary and the AD did at the time of its occurrence.

I also can't recall any other fan base who repeatedly chanted "f**k you, JJ" or made sexually derogatory remarks about his sister/s during games either.

I hope Turtle keeps posting here because s/he has taken a lot of crap but has been restrained and civil with the replies.

As for the rest, I'll join in the chorus of "ahhhhhhhhhh, see ya!"Exactly.
I'm not saying that Maryland is the only school that has fans like that; rather, I'm saying that at no other school does this kind of behavior seem to be as pervasive, endemic, even celebrated as it is at Maryland. And Sweaty Gary et. al.'s excuse-making on behalf of those fans and the entire university is part and parcel of my point.
And yes, in my personal experience, Maryland fans are the only fans who have ever treated me that way in public.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I don't. Really I don't. They are not a great academic school, they've mostly been bad in football and their basketball program has been inconsistent. Plus it's actually physically dangerous for Duke fans to attend a basketball game there, to the point where Coach K doesn't bring his family. At some level a rivalry stops being good natured and fun and becomes something worse. For me, Maryland is past that point.

Howard

I should have remembered Rule #1 of the webbernetz - there is never ever consensus on anything.

[OldPhiKap]

I should have remembered Rule #1 of the webbernetz - there is never ever consensus on anything.

Is that the consensus view?

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I should have remembered Rule #1 of the webbernetz - there is never ever consensus on anything.
I thought you were just tossing us an underhanded softball so we could have a little more fun. :cool:

[lotusland]

[QUOTE=howardlander;735503]Not great means not great. Here are the US News and Report Rankings for ACC schools (includes ties in the rankings): Maryland is ahead of exactly 4 ACC schools and tied with 3 others. It means Maryland doesn't bring enough academically to the conference to offset the obvious goonery of their fans.

Duke 7
Notre Dame 18
UVA 23
Wake 23
UNC 30
BC 31
Georgia Tech 36
Miami 47
Clemson 62
Syracuse 62
Maryland 62
Pitt 62
Virginia Tech 69
FSU 91
NC State 101
Louisville

interesting I would have expected VPI to be higher.

[sagegrouse]

I can't stand UMd because the fans are among the worst in all of college sports. I am happy the Terps left the ACC -- it solves a problem 'cuz I don't think there is any chance the fans become more tolerable.

At the same time, I would be happy to see the Terps win big in the Big Ten. I am really tired of this league and still remember when the Big Ten lorded it over everyone.

I don't think the two positions are in conflict; moreover, a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds. Besides, this is the Internet.

[devildeac]

I should have remembered Rule #1 of the webbernetz - there is never ever consensus on anything.

I disagree. Sort of. In an agreeable kind of way:o.

[howardlander]

[QUOTE=howardlander;735503]Not great means not great. Here are the US News and Report Rankings for ACC schools (includes ties in the rankings): Maryland is ahead of exactly 4 ACC schools and tied with 3 others. It means Maryland doesn't bring enough academically to the conference to offset the obvious goonery of their fans.

Duke 7
Notre Dame 18
UVA 23
Wake 23
UNC 30
BC 31
Georgia Tech 36
Miami 47
Clemson 62
Syracuse 62
Maryland 62
Pitt 62
Virginia Tech 69
FSU 91
NC State 101
Louisville

interesting I would have expected VPI to be higher.

I was actually surprised by how low N.C State is. I can't really vouch for this methodology and rankings. It does seem like some of the engineering schools are a bit low. Maybe a low graduation rate?

Howard

[gocanes0506]

The only reason the Big 10/16 needed Maryland and Rutgers is to add more TVs. The Big 10 did not need any flag ship, top university, or even someone to compete in sports.

Rutgers is a mess right now both in sports and in the media. Rutgers puts them in NJ/NY though. Maryland is Maryland. Not great but pretty good. Maryland brings more spotlight in the DC area supposedly. Maryland will regret the decision. They thought getting discarded by Duke, Carolina, and other top ACC universities was bad. The will only receive the same treatment from OSU, Michigan, etc and they will be the new guy, equaling even less pull in the conference.

[OldPhiKap]

The only reason the Big 10/16 needed Maryland and Rutgers is to add more TVs. The Big 10 did not need any flag ship, top university, or even someone to compete in sports.

Rutgers is a mess right now both in sports and in the media. Rutgers puts them in NJ/NY though. Maryland is Maryland. Not great but pretty good. Maryland brings more spotlight in the DC area supposedly. Maryland will regret the decision. They thought getting discarded by Duke, Carolina, and other top ACC universities was bad. The will only receive the same treatment from OSU, Michigan, etc and they will be the new guy, equaling even less pull in the conference.

Yup. And unless something has changed -- the NY/NJ market does not give a hoot about college sports, let alone Rutgers.

[burnspbesq]

When Maryland loses to Hop in the Big Integer men's lax tournament and then gets left out of the NCAA because it doesn't have enough quality wins ...

When Maryland has to play Louisville in the ACC - Big Integer challenge five years in a row ...

When Maryland women's lax, soccer, and field hockey recruiting drops off because it can no longer promise prospects the advantages of playing in an elite league ...

When Maryland alums burn down Iowa City or West Lafayette because they can't find a place to drink away the pain of yet another bad loss ...

When the best HS basketball players in Baltimore and DC understand "ABM" to mean something other than "anti-ballistic missile" ...

When the WaPo no longer has a Maryland beat writer because nobody cares any more ...

And when Kevin Plank is advised by his lawyers that he's breaching his fiduciary duty to the shareholders of Under Armour by continuing to throw good money after bad ...

Then, and only then, will Terp fans fully understand the scope of their folly.

Elmer Fudd said it best ... "Good widdance to bad wubbish."