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Olympic Fan
06-13-2014, 12:15 PM
According to ESPN, which is counting down the nation's best coaches, that's where he lands:

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/

brevity
06-13-2014, 12:40 PM
ESPN discusses the timing of the selection:


Votes were tallied well before the McCants mess, in other words ... but they were also tallied after more than two years of academic self-investigation and the P.J. Hairston mess of a summer ago.

The article fails to mention that Ol' Roy was actually voted 20th, but moved up to 16th after some "swapping out" of votes.

Wahoo2000
06-13-2014, 04:07 PM
They stated from the beginning that this was an award based on what these programs are doing currently, and not a coach's entire career -

"we asked a panel of nearly 100 ESPN writers, editors, broadcasters and researchers to rate college basketball coaches on all aspects of running a program, on a scale of 1-10. (The crucial distinction here is that the prompt was not career-oriented. This isn't about legacy. It's all about the present.)"

Just giving you guys a heads up in case K doesn't land in the top 5 (if they're REALLY only emphasizing success over the last couple of years). I think the rest of the remaining ACC coaches to be named will pan out something like this:

Bennett - around 13-15
Boeheim & K - around 4-6
Pitino - around 1-3

Again, all based on where the program is RIGHT NOW.

edit/addendum - If they rerun this same poll a year from now, K could very well be #1-3 assuming you guys make a final 4 run next season (which I find pretty likely).


ESPN discusses the timing of the selection:



The article fails to mention that Ol' Roy was actually voted 20th, but moved up to 16th after some "swapping out" of votes.

Henderson
06-13-2014, 05:36 PM
Meaningless marketing ploy by ESPN to generate some interest going into a very quiet period for major sports. The US New & World Report of basketball coaching ratings -- it's all about selling the product and has nothing to do with reality.

OldPhiKap
06-13-2014, 06:53 PM
Roy is top 20, but not top 10. I can buy that, sounds ballpark right.

devildeac
06-13-2014, 06:59 PM
Roy is top 20, but not top 10. I can buy that, sounds ballpark right.

Got any transcripts to prove that?:rolleyes:;)

OldPhiKap
06-13-2014, 08:10 PM
Got any transcripts to prove that?:rolleyes:;)

I almost feel bad for Roy. Came back to his dream job, pressure to win his first NC, and he turned a blind eye to the termites in order to get the mansion.

McCants took down Doh! And may take down Roy. Wonder what he has on a Dean or Gut.

PSurprise
06-13-2014, 08:17 PM
He would've gotten more but he was confused about "paper votes"

OldPhiKap
06-13-2014, 09:24 PM
Well, the other coaches voted him one of the top ten most overrated coaches -- so he has that.

dukelifer
06-14-2014, 06:13 AM
Roy is top 20, but not top 10. I can buy that, sounds ballpark right.

Of current coaches? Perhaps 16 all-time- but I cannot see that number for the current coaches- unless they are looking at potential (e.g. Kevin Ollie). Only 3 current coaches have multiple championships - K, Donovan and Roy. That alone has to put you in the top 10 of current coaches.

Dr. Rosenrosen
06-14-2014, 11:22 AM
Of current coaches? Perhaps 16 all-time- but I cannot see that number for the current coaches- unless they are looking at potential (e.g. Kevin Ollie). Only 3 current coaches have multiple championships - K, Donovan and Roy. That alone has to put you in the top 10 of current coaches.
Unless you cheated to win two of those championships...

Olympic Fan
06-19-2014, 02:34 PM
We got Bennett at No. 14 on the list and Boeheim at No. 12 ... I find that one strange -- his resume is outstanding and the 'Cuse was just in the Final Four a year ago (and spend about a third of lasts season at No. 1).

brevity
06-19-2014, 03:38 PM
Here's the link (http://espn.go.com/ncb/notebook/_/page/top50coaches12/no-12-syracuse-jim-boeheim) to the #12 ranking for Jim Boeheim. At the bottom of the page you can see the list so far from #50 to #12.

Here are the ACC coaches already mentioned:

12. Jim Boeheim, Syracuse
14. Tony Bennett, Virginia
16. Roy Williams, UNC
25. Jamie Dixon, Pittsburgh
28. Jim Larranaga, Miami
38. Buzz Williams, Virginia Tech
45. Mike Brey, Notre Dame

If you add the not-yet-mentioned Coach K and Rick Pitino, that's 9 ACC coaches, which is not bad. (It's a bit skewed, with 1 new ACC school, 3 new-ish ACC schools, and new-to-the-ACC Buzz Williams.)

ESPN's criteria for ranking is annoyingly unclear right now. The articles keep saying that current performance is being evaluated and legacy is ignored. As for the Top 11, who's left? Coach K, Rick Pitino. The 2014 Final Four coaches (Kevin Ollie, John Calipari, Bo Ryan, Billy Donovan) plus three 2014 Elite 8 coaches (Sean Miller, Tom Izzo, John Beilein). Gregg Marshall, Bill Self. That's 11.

OldPhiKap
06-19-2014, 03:45 PM
Here's the link (http://espn.go.com/ncb/notebook/_/page/top50coaches12/no-12-syracuse-jim-boeheim) to the #12 ranking for Jim Boeheim. At the bottom of the page you can see the list so far from #50 to #12.

Here are the ACC coaches already mentioned:

12. Jim Boeheim, Syracuse
14. Tony Bennett, Virginia
16. Roy Williams, UNC
25. Jamie Dixon, Pittsburgh
28. Jim Larranaga, Miami
38. Buzz Williams, Virginia Tech
45. Mike Brey, Notre Dame

If you add the not-yet-mentioned Coach K and Rick Pitino, that's 9 ACC coaches, which is not bad. (It's a bit skewed, with 1 new ACC school, 3 new-ish ACC schools, and new-to-the-ACC Buzz Williams.)

ESPN's criteria for ranking is annoyingly unclear right now. The articles keep saying that current performance is being evaluated and legacy is ignored. As for the Top 11, who's left? Coach K, Rick Pitino. The 2014 Final Four coaches (Kevin Ollie, John Calipari, Bo Ryan, Billy Donovan) plus three 2014 Elite 8 coaches (Sean Miller, Tom Izzo, John Beilein). Gregg Marshall, Bill Self. That's 11.

Seth Greenberg was left just outside the bubble.

Henderson
06-19-2014, 06:08 PM
I'd say Roy is definitely in the top 16 among current ACC coaches. So what's the rumpus?

OldPhiKap
06-19-2014, 06:42 PM
I'd say Roy is definitely in the top 16 among current ACC coaches. So what's the rumpus?

Men's and woman's?

Sylvia > Roy

Henderson
06-19-2014, 06:45 PM
Men's and woman's?

Sylvia > Roy

Good call. But Roy is definitely top 32 in the ACC, right? I mean among current coaches.

royalblue
06-19-2014, 07:19 PM
I came close to creating a snot bubble when thinking about Seth at #51 . You made me think of the Sean Dockery almost 1/2 court shot. Thanks I needed that positivity today.

OldPhiKap
06-19-2014, 09:09 PM
Good call. But Roy is definitely top 32 in the ACC, right? I mean among current coaches.

I dunno -- David Cutcliffe, Jombo Fisher, Dabo Swinney, Frank Beamer, John Danowski . . . .

uh_no
06-19-2014, 10:39 PM
Men's and woman's?

Sylvia > Roy

well, at least roy has the upper hand in fashion.....but the bar ain't high

OldPhiKap
06-19-2014, 10:51 PM
well, at least roy has the upper hand in fashion.....but the bar ain't high

My bet is that Sylvia wears the pants in that duo.

"Not that there's anything wrong with that" of course.

uh_no
06-19-2014, 11:10 PM
My bet is that Sylvia wears the pants in that duo.

"Not that there's anything wrong with that" of course.

there's no duo anymore. sylvia called it off. no diamond, no duo.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
06-22-2014, 12:33 PM
Jim Boeheim at #11

http://espn.go.com/ncb/notebook/_/page/top50coaches12/no-12-syracuse-jim-boeheim

brevity
06-22-2014, 01:01 PM
Jim Boeheim at #11

http://espn.go.com/ncb/notebook/_/page/top50coaches12/no-12-syracuse-jim-boeheim

Jim Boeheim is #12 on their list. Sean Miller (http://espn.go.com/ncb/notebook/_/page/top50coaches11/no-11-arizona-sean-miller) has been added on as #11.

Considering who's left, and how high ESPN is on Miller, I thought he'd be higher. If I had to guess the order of the Top 10, based on their deliberately vague criteria:

10. John Beilein
9. Gregg Marshall
8. Bo Ryan
7. Kevin Ollie
6. Coach K
5. Tom Izzo
4. Billy Donovan
3. Rick Pitino
2. John Calipari
1. Bill Self

Honestly, a randomized list of these 10 names would be just as likely. ESPN likes to start up controversy, but I don't think they'll put Calipari at #1. If they want someone new-ish at the top, Self is a better candidate.

devildeac
06-23-2014, 04:03 PM
I'll bet this does not put ol' roy in the dadgum summer spirit:rolleyes:.

Olympic Fan
06-28-2014, 11:35 AM
Jim Boeheim is #12 on their list. Sean Miller (http://espn.go.com/ncb/notebook/_/page/top50coaches11/no-11-arizona-sean-miller) has been added on as #11.

Considering who's left, and how high ESPN is on Miller, I thought he'd be higher. If I had to guess the order of the Top 10, based on their deliberately vague criteria:

10. John Beilein
9. Gregg Marshall
8. Bo Ryan
7. Kevin Ollie
6. Coach K
5. Tom Izzo
4. Billy Donovan
3. Rick Pitino
2. John Calipari
1. Bill Self

Honestly, a randomized list of these 10 names would be just as likely. ESPN likes to start up controversy, but I don't think they'll put Calipari at #1. If they want someone new-ish at the top, Self is a better candidate.

Well, you missed there ... Self just landed at No. 6 -- leaving (in alphabetical order) Calipari, Donovan, Izzo, Krzyzewski and Pitino for the top 5.

Frankly, I'm still trying to figure their criteria. If Boeheim is 12, it must be based on recent success, right? But as we explored in the world university games thread, NOBODY has had more success over the last five years than Self.

Frankly, I don't have a clue how they rank the final five.

hurleyfor3
06-30-2014, 10:44 AM
Pitino is #5.

http://espn.go.com/ncb/notebook/_/page/top50coaches5/no-5-louisville-rick-pitino

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
06-30-2014, 11:46 AM
Will any of us really be surprised if they put K at #1?

Such strange criteria - or lack thereof. Not a list I would be likely to replicate.

NashvilleDevil
06-30-2014, 12:05 PM
Will any of us really be surprised if they put K at #1?

Such strange criteria - or lack thereof. Not a list I would be likely to replicate.

I am going to guess it's
1) Calipari
2) Izzo
3) K
4) Rick Barnes (hahahaha, kidding of course)
4) Donovan

CameronBornAndBred
06-30-2014, 12:18 PM
K will either be 1 or 2, Calipari will fill the other spot. Beyond my obvious bias, I'd put K in the first spot based on OH SO MANY reasons.
# of championships (ACC and national), number of Olympic gold medals, number of players in NBA (you still have a ways to go, Cal), consistency in the tournament (damn you 2013, damn you Robert Morris!)...and on an on. i have no doubt whatever I missed would fill a book.
If K is not 1, the whole poll is a sham.

Olympic Fan
06-30-2014, 12:30 PM
K will either be 1 or 2, Calipari will fill the other spot. Beyond my obvious bias, I'd put K in the first spot based on OH SO MANY reasons.
# of championships (ACC and national), number of Olympic gold medals, number of players in NBA (you still have a ways to go, Cal), consistency in the tournament (damn you 2013, damn you Robert Morris!)...and on an on. i have no doubt whatever I missed would fill a book.
If K is not 1, the whole poll is a sham.

While I agree with you 100 percent, the only problem is that you cannot apply logic to the ESPN list. After 46 of their 50 picks, I can't see any logic to the formula.

So Kevin Ollie after two years, rates ahead of Jim Boeheim?

Okay, I guess it's what have you done for me lately (although Boeheim was in the Final Four in 2013 and spent much of 2014 at No. 1).

But then Bill Self, who has had the nation's most successful all-around program over the last five years comes in at No. 6? True, he hasn't won a national title in that time, but he's won it all more recently than two of the guys ahead of him (Izzo and Donovan) and he's had much more consistent success than either.

And what about Roy at No. 16? The argument was made that the stink coming out of his program negates a bit of what he's accomplished on the court. But what about Calipari, why has had two Final Fours vacated?

I repeat, ESPN's list makes no sense.

TexHawk
06-30-2014, 12:41 PM
While I agree with you 100 percent, the only problem is that you cannot apply logic to the ESPN list. After 46 of their 50 picks, I can't see any logic to the formula.

So Kevin Ollie after two years, rates ahead of Jim Boeheim?

Okay, I guess it's what have you done for me lately (although Boeheim was in the Final Four in 2013 and spent much of 2014 at No. 1).

But then Bill Self, who has had the nation's most successful all-around program over the last five years comes in at No. 6? True, he hasn't won a national title in that time, but he's won it all more recently than two of the guys ahead of him (Izzo and Donovan) and he's had much more consistent success than either.

And what about Roy at No. 16? The argument was made that the stink coming out of his program negates a bit of what he's accomplished on the court. But what about Calipari, why has had two Final Fours vacated?

I repeat, ESPN's list makes no sense.

I thought I had a beat on it... they I lost it.

Recent final fours help you (Marshall, Ollie, Beilein, Ryan)... unless they don't (Boheim). Semi-long Final Four droughts sorta hurt (Self, maybe K), unless they don't (Izzo).

Back to the drawing board.

Henderson
06-30-2014, 01:10 PM
While I agree with you 100 percent, the only problem is that you cannot apply logic to the ESPN list. After 46 of their 50 picks, I can't see any logic to the formula.
****
I repeat, ESPN's list makes no sense.

You're over-thinking it by looking for internal logic or systematic analysis. This isn't about sports. It's about creating buzz for ESPN during a slow time for basketball fans.

And that's why I haven't given a rat's patooey about it from the get go.

Billy Dat
06-30-2014, 01:10 PM
I repeat, ESPN's list makes no sense.

This is part of the new-ish ESPN Forecast approach, which is kind of a crowdsource model described as:

"How does it work?
Our approach, in a nutshell, is to create a diverse panel of people with college basketball expertise and aggregate predictions and opinions. For ESPN Forecast, we have a panel of 45 members that collectively possess vast college basketball experience, knowledge and perspective.

Why does it work?
This panel has a collective intelligence that's greater than any individual member's knowledge and sharper than that of any single statistical system.
Diversity is a key factor in creating accurate predictions and opinion. The wisdom of the crowd comes from having diverse views that emerge from independent thinking.
The ESPN Forecast panel is a diverse mix of contributors from across the spectrum."

So, its kind of like the AP or USA Today polls, an index of a bunch of people with wildly different criteria that they use to rank. The thought goes into the panel construction and what comes out of that panel is supposed to represent the best thinking, but I am sure everyone with a vote has their own criteria.

Duvall
06-30-2014, 01:16 PM
For ESPN Forecast, we have a panel of 45 members that collectively possess vast college basketball experience, knowledge and perspective.


Given the quality of most ESPN commentary, I doubt this is actually true.

flyingdutchdevil
06-30-2014, 01:16 PM
This is part of the new-ish ESPN Forecast approach, which is kind of a crowdsource model described as:

"How does it work?
Our approach, in a nutshell, is to create a diverse panel of people with college basketball expertise and aggregate predictions and opinions. For ESPN Forecast, we have a panel of 45 members that collectively possess vast college basketball experience, knowledge and perspective.

Why does it work?
This panel has a collective intelligence that's greater than any individual member's knowledge and sharper than that of any single statistical system.
Diversity is a key factor in creating accurate predictions and opinion. The wisdom of the crowd comes from having diverse views that emerge from independent thinking.
The ESPN Forecast panel is a diverse mix of contributors from across the spectrum."

So, its kind of like the AP or USA Today polls, an index of a bunch of people with wildly different criteria that they use to rank. The thought goes into the panel construction and what comes out of that panel is supposed to represent the best thinking, but I am sure everyone with a vote has their own criteria.

I very much like this approach. It prevents personal bias and takes into account everyone's own criteria that they deem the most important. Is it overall success? In that case, it's tough to make a case against Coach K. Is it success in the last 5 years? If that's the case, tough to argue with Self or Calipari. Recruiting? Coaching tree? NCAA record? Reg season record? So many criteria. I, for one, view success in the tourney over the regular season, but many on DBR may see different. It's the beauty of the pooling answers.

NashvilleDevil
07-01-2014, 10:17 AM
K will either be 1 or 2, Calipari will fill the other spot. Beyond my obvious bias, I'd put K in the first spot based on OH SO MANY reasons.
# of championships (ACC and national), number of Olympic gold medals, number of players in NBA (you still have a ways to go, Cal), consistency in the tournament (damn you 2013, damn you Robert Morris!)...and on an on. i have no doubt whatever I missed would fill a book.
If K is not 1, the whole poll is a sham.

It's a sham. (http://espn.go.com/ncb/notebook/_/page/top50coaches4/no-4-duke-mike-krzyzewski)

Duvall
07-01-2014, 10:23 AM
It's a sham. (http://espn.go.com/ncb/notebook/_/page/top50coaches4/no-4-duke-mike-krzyzewski)

I mean, we already knew it was a sham based on the earlier results. But why would you have expected better from the network of Bayless and Cowherd?

NashvilleDevil
07-01-2014, 10:37 AM
I mean, we already knew it was a sham based on the earlier results. But why would you have expected better from the network of Bayless and Cowherd?

I was responding to Cameron sayng if K was not #1 that the list was a sham. I knew the second they put it out that K was not going to be number 1. And Cowherd and Bayless are just about the worst. I will say that I do enjoy Olbermann's show.

CameronBornAndBred
07-01-2014, 11:31 AM
It's a sham. (http://espn.go.com/ncb/notebook/_/page/top50coaches4/no-4-duke-mike-krzyzewski)
So much for the rest of my working afternoon, I need to email my boss that I'll be sick the rest of the day.

P.S...now it is a laughable sham.

Turk
07-01-2014, 06:16 PM
Good gravy. So my guess is the order of the remaining three spots will be:

3) Donovan, 2) Izzo, 1) Calipari

Hmph.

ice-9
07-02-2014, 01:42 AM
The rankings themselves have no logical consistency, but I thought the write-up itself was quite fair and complimentary.


The most recent chunk of Coach K's career is better than almost any other coach in the sport and just sort of OK for him. How crazy is that?

Chicago 1995
07-02-2014, 11:53 AM
The rankings themselves have no logical consistency, but I thought the write-up itself was quite fair and complimentary.

I thought it was fair too, considering there's little consistency in the criteria, and making it clear at it has that it's a ranking not of career achievement but simply right now -- however you want to define that. Right now, even with his resume, K's coming off a season that didn't live up to expectations (and raised some questions frankly), and Duke's in a 10 year run that's matched by a number of guys who are either just ahead or just behind K on the list. And is it so offensive to admit that save 2010, the last 10 years don't live up to the standard's K has built for the program?

Ranking Cal #1 is very fair. Ranking Billy D ahead of K, IMO, is also fair. I have a beef with the Izzo ranking, but I also understand it. Honestly, Self should probably be higher than Pitino and in this group of four at the top of the game. How you shake out the order of these guys (maybe including Boeheim) is pretty subjective and one for which there's no wrong answer.

SoCalDukeFan
07-02-2014, 07:19 PM
I can understand why he is not Number 1.

First of all, there is always a lot of "What did you do for me lately?" and in the last 10 seasons, 1 Final Four. I think last year was probably K's worst coaching job, far too much talent to lose to Mercer. Secondly, I think many believe that K can easily recruit the best players so he should do well every year, which fails to understand how hard he works on recruiting and how hard he worked to build the program.

There is no way I would put Cal in my top 10. Too many violations on his watch. He is also not a very good game coach, I assume the voters missed the 2008 NC game. He has figured out (and better than K, in my opinion) a system that works with one and doners.

Billy D and Izzo are excellent coaches. My guess is that they both will tell you that K is the best.

I would rank them K, Pitano, Izzo, Billy D.

Lastly I have a friend who was a Div I assistant coach at a mid major. He told me that at the conventions etc. guys would take note of say Pitano or Roy Williams but when they saw K it would be like "OMG there is Coach K."

SoCal

miramar
07-03-2014, 03:27 AM
I understand that this ranking takes a what-have-you-done-for-me-lately approach, which is fine since ESPN explains how they are doing all this, and I can also see why two recent first-round exits would affect the outcome. Nevertheless, it is curious to see Tom Izzo ranked ahead of Coach K since he would be the first to admit that Coach K absolutely owns him:

http://www.mlive.com/spartans/index.ssf/2013/08/tom_izzo_mike_krzyzewski_the_b.html

Getting back to the first-round futility, there is no question that it is harder to develop leadership and team cohesiveness in an age of one and dones, but Coach K has indicated that he will take a different approach next year and I can't wait to see the outcome.