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Olympic Fan
06-06-2014, 04:33 PM
I know we just had a long thread discussing the History Channel's absurd 3-part history of World War II and maybe we're all talked out about WWII history, but I couldn't let the 70th anniversary of D-Day pass without a comment.

It's the pivotal moment in WWII and the pivotal moment in 20th Century history -- the moment when the United States became the world's greatest power (for better or worse).

I don't mean to denigrate the British who contributed almost as many troops, air and naval forces to the invasion. But much of the British equipment was American-built and more importantly, the impedus for the invasion was American. Starting with the Washington conference in late December 1941, the Americans always argued for a direct invasion of France across the Channel, while Churchill and the British argued for a peripheral strategy. FDR overruled his top staff officers in the summer of 1942, delaying the cross-channel attack in favor of the invasion of North African (in hindsight, the right move at the time) and again in the spring on 1943, when he allowed the invasions of Sicily and Italy. But in the end, he backed Marshall and the rest of his chiefs and bullied Churchill and the British into agreeing to the invasion.

It's still, in hindsight, hard to understand what an incredible military achievement it was. Everything from the deception plan to the artificial harbors to the innovative swimming tanks.

But in the end, the victory still came down to the men, who triumphed when the plans broke down, the bombardments missed the German strongpoints when the airborne units where scattered over hell and back. Only 15 percent of the men of the 82nd and 101st landed where they were supposed to do -- and they still accomplished almost all their D-Day objectives. At Utah, the first wave landed at the wrong place, but the assistant division commander (Teddy Roosevelt Jr.) made one of the great command decisions of the war and engineered a nearly bloodless invasion.

The landing on Omaha was a bloody disaster, but it was saved by the courage and initiative of a number of low ranking soldiers, who got up the bluff under murderous fire and slowly extinguished the German fire.

That's the one thing I don't like about the movie The Longest Day. It does a good job of showing the scope of the invasion, but the resolution of the Omaha stalemate -- Robert Mitchum as General Norm Cota organizes an attack on a key obstacle and when that blows up, the men go marching inland. That's not what happened. Saving Private Ryan offers a more accurate segment. A small squad negotiates the bluff under fire and gets off the beach. Sam Fuller (who was on Omaha that day) offers a similar version in The Big Red One. There was no dramatic assault, no one place or one time when the GIs won ... it was the accumulation of individual GI accomplishment that won the day on Omaha and saved the invasion.

For anyone interested in the battle, I would suggest Stephen Ambrose's D-Day: June 6, 1944. Even though Atkinson covers it well, I think Ambrose has written the definitive account of this battle. I also like Cornelius Ryan's The Longest Day, although it bugs me that he misses the climax of the assault on Point de Hoc. He recounts the heroic assault by the Rangers up the cliff there, but ends his story with the letdown that the Germans had moved the guns that were the target of the assault. That's the way it's shown in the movie ... but in truth, the guns had merely been pulled back into an orchard a few hundred yards away to protect from the bombing/shelling. Two Rangers surveying the area found them, attacked and destroyed the weapons that had so scared Allied planners.

PS We also passed the 72nd anniversary of Midway last Wednesday with little hoopla nationally. It made me think -- we celebrate Memorial Day in late May and Veterans Day of Nov. 11, but we ought to celebrate some kind of World War II memorial day around June 4-6. The fact that the pivotal battle in the Pacific occurred on June 4 (1942 .. it actually lasted until June 6, but the 4th was the key to the battle) and the pivotal battle in Europe occurred on June 6, 1944 is an interesting coincidence. Throw in the Liberation of Rome on June 4, 1944 and that's a pretty significant 3-day period to celebrate.

Atlanta Duke
06-06-2014, 06:54 PM
For anyone who has the opportunity to tour the Normandy battlefields you probably were or will be amazed that the invasion was able to succeed.

This is the link to the 18 minute video that runs in the visitors center at the Normandy American Cemetery of five men who gave their lives during the Normandy campaign.

link (http://www.abmc.gov/multimedia/videos/letters)

We owe our freedom to those who served.

Jarhead
06-06-2014, 11:51 PM
My memories of June 6, 1944 include hearing the news on WTOP radio about the landings on the beaches in Normandy, France. I knew my cousin, Billy Klosterman, was stationed in England, and I wondered if he was there at Normandy. He and his Dad were my my heroes. Uncle Bill was a US Marine, and served in the trenches in France in WWI. He lost his leg to gangrene. It was him who, a week later, called my Dad to let us know that cousin Billy was missing in action in Normandy. His whole battalion never made it ashore. Early in the morning the ship he was on was hit by one or more German torpedoes. Most of the troops and crew went down with the ship, and were recorded as Missing in Action.

A few years ago, Mrs Jarhead and I were on France on an Insight tour that took us to Normandy. I asked the tour guide if any monuments to the MIAs were there at the American Cemetery. He asked me for a name, and took a book out of his satchel. He told me to follow him which took us to a curving white marble wall about twenty yards or more wide, and about ten feet high. He looked in his book again, and put his finger in my cousin's name. I still miss Billy today.

JStuart
06-07-2014, 07:06 AM
These posts are why I read this board; excellent, consistently reliable commentary on pertinent -or just plain interesting- topics.
Thanks, and keep posting.
JStuart

Devil in the Blue Dress
06-07-2014, 11:01 AM
The WWII Museum in New Orleans is a treasure... a source of hundreds of personal accounts recorded in interviews, recordings of news reports, etc. Many items on display and in the collections have been donated by those who served or their families. Over the 14 years since it opened, the museum has grown from being housed in something of a warehouse space to several buildings with more planned. It takes several days to see it all. For anyone interested in WWII, this is a must see.

Kimist
06-07-2014, 02:33 PM
If you are ever in the Roanoke VA area, you should take a couple of hours and stop by the nearby National D-Day Memorial in Bedford, VA.

Aside from showing some detailed insights into what actually occurred on June 6, 1944, there is the side issue of the disproportionate loss of life for the local servicemen involved. Bedford is a small mountain town, but lost nineteen brave local souls on June 6th.

I also heartily recommend you spend a few extra dollars to receive an optional tour by one of the guides, who is most likely a seasoned military veteran who can make your visit even more worthwhile.


Link to D-Day Memorial: http://www.dday.org/

More on "The Bedford Boys": http://www.cbsnews.com/news/bedford-boys-d-day-veterans-remembered-in-virginia/

k

Devil in the Blue Dress
06-07-2014, 06:25 PM
Here's a link for those who would like more information about the National WW II Museum: http://www.nationalww2museum.org/index.html

You can read about the buildings and exhibits already open to the public as well look over the plans for the future. The collection of recordings made by those who fought in the war, worked at home in the factories or elsewhere is most impressive. Exhibits are very personalized.

The events planned throughout the year each year cover many aspects and anniversaries related to the war.

This campus came about as the result of an assignment made in a class at Tulane. Long after the class was completed, the donations kept coming in, filling up a warehouse. This is a grass roots based institution in contrast to many other museums. Since it opened 14 years ago, it has become the top attraction for visitors to New Orleans.

Bob Green
06-07-2014, 07:41 PM
PS We also passed the 72nd anniversary of Midway last Wednesday with little hoopla nationally.

For anyone desiring to read about the Battle of Midway, I highly recommend Gordon W. Prange's Miracle at Midway. With Bill Halsey SIQ due to a severe skin rash, Ray Spruance stepped up and secured a critical victory over the Japanese.

OldPhiKap
06-09-2014, 11:23 PM
The WWII Museum in New Orleans is a treasure... a source of hundreds of personal accounts recorded in interviews, recordings of news reports, etc. Many items on display and in the collections have been donated by those who served or their families. Over the 14 years since it opened, the museum has grown from being housed in something of a warehouse space to several buildings with more planned. It takes several days to see it all. For anyone interested in WWII, this is a must see.

Absolutely agree with DiBD on this. Excellent museum/exhibit.

And I am a firm believer that every American should make the pilgrimage to the American Cemetery at Colleville-sur-Mer, Normandy, France (a/k/a Omaha Beach). It is sacred American grounds. You stand up on the ridge overlooking the beach, and drive though the hedgerow-lined roads, and it is almost impossible to imagine what really happened. (Until you go to Bayeux and see the Bayeux Tapestry, and realize the history of invasions across The Channel for at least a millennia).

God bless those who risked, and sometimes gave, their all in a war against a truly evil regime.

Olympic Fan
06-10-2014, 10:20 AM
For anyone desiring to read about the Battle of Midway, I highly recommend Gordon W. Prange's Miracle at Midway. With Bill Halsey SIQ due to a severe skin rash, Ray Spruance stepped up and secured a critical victory over the Japanese.

Prange's book is certainly the definitive text from the American POV ... but he relies on some bad information about Japanese motives, actions ... for the definitive view from the other side, you must read Shattered Sword by Jonathan Parshall and Anthony Tully.

77devil
06-10-2014, 10:46 AM
Absolutely agree with DiBD on this. Excellent museum/exhibit.

And I am a firm believer that every American should make the pilgrimage to the American Cemetery at Colleville-sur-Mer, Normandy, France (a/k/a Omaha Beach). It is sacred American grounds. You stand up on the ridge overlooking the beach, and drive though the hedgerow-lined roads, and it is almost impossible to imagine what really happened. (Until you go to Bayeux and see the Bayeux Tapestry, and realize the history of invasions across The Channel for at least a millennia).

God bless those who risked, and sometimes gave, their all in a war against a truly evil regime.

It is one of the more moving experiences of my life perhaps because my father was a D-Day participant. He flew C-47s (DC-3) in North Africa and Italy but was assigned to fly a troop glider on D-Day, was captured by the Germans, and served the rest of the war as a POW.

Given what I've read about the invasion over the years, I think he was lucky not to have been shot when he was captured.

Bob Green
06-10-2014, 05:09 PM
Prange's book is certainly the definitive text from the American POV ... but he relies on some bad information about Japanese motives, actions ... for the definitive view from the other side, you must read Shattered Sword by Jonathan Parshall and Anthony Tully.

You've told me this before so I really need to locate a copy of that book. I struck out with the Chesapeake Public Library.

-jk
06-11-2014, 10:40 AM
You've told me this before so I really need to locate a copy of that book. I struck out with the Chesapeake Public Library.

Have your library do a search through their system or an interlibrary search.

-jk

Olympic Fan
06-11-2014, 01:42 PM
You've told me this before so I really need to locate a copy of that book. I struck out with the Chesapeake Public Library.

Bob, I would suggest biting the bullet and ordering through amazon. You can get a used copy under $13:

http://www.amazon.com/Shattered-Sword-Untold-Battle-Midway/dp/1574889249/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1402508456&sr=1-1&keywords=shattered+sword

BTW, if you click the link, check out the reviews.

Dukeface88
06-14-2014, 12:34 AM
Bob, I would suggest biting the bullet and ordering through amazon. You can get a used copy under $13:

http://www.amazon.com/Shattered-Sword-Untold-Battle-Midway/dp/1574889249/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1402508456&sr=1-1&keywords=shattered+sword

BTW, if you click the link, check out the reviews.

I'd add that even if you have a Kindle or something, I still recommend getting a physical copy. Some of the nonstandard Japanese characters are kind of messed up in the ebook format. It isn't unreadable, but I find it annoying. Also, the maps are quite difficult to make out.

As far as other books on Midway, I'm about halfway through Craig Symonds Battle of Midway, which was suggested to me as a good take on the American side that incorporates Shattered Sword's findings. My impression is that it's a bit more "pop" - or less academic, depending on how you want to think of it - but I've enjoyed it. I think it's somewhat misnamed though; only about 150 of the 400 pages deal with the battle proper (the first 200 are preliminaries, covering not just the code breaking and such, but also the early war carrier raids in the Marshals and Solomon's, while the last 50 are aftermath).

Another book from the American side I read was John Lundstrom's First Team, which covers the same time period. Stylistically, it's the other way around, being quite dense (I mean that in a good way - well, mostly). It's also more focused on the aviation side, going into very specific detail about individual dogfights, aerial tactics and carrier operations. There were a lot of accidents, of all types - mechanical failure, pilot error and friendly fire. But what really hit home for me were the mini-biographies he gave for many of the dead pilots - just a couple of sentences usually, but they really emphasized that the men were not just nameless, faceless statistics.

Olympic Fan
06-15-2014, 12:44 PM
Another book from the American side I read was John Lundstrom's First Team, which covers the same time period. Stylistically, it's the other way around, being quite dense (I mean that in a good way - well, mostly). It's also more focused on the aviation side, going into very specific detail about individual dogfights, aerial tactics and carrier operations. There were a lot of accidents, of all types - mechanical failure, pilot error and friendly fire. But what really hit home for me were the mini-biographies he gave for many of the dead pilots - just a couple of sentences usually, but they really emphasized that the men were not just nameless, faceless statistics.

Lundstrum writes the forward for Shattered Sword ... it was his endorsement that got me to read it in the first place.

The First Team is an amazingly detailed study of the navy carrier fighter squadrons in the opening months of the way (from Pearl Harbor to Midway). Great explanation of how the squadrons were set up and how the planes operated on the carriers. Although he is primarily focused on the fighter squadrons, he covers the other squadrons too.

His follow-up -- The First Team at Guadalcanal -- if also excellent. He advances the argument -- which I think he justifies convincingly -- that the Guadalcanal air force was largely built around the carrier air squadrons that were displaced to the island as their carriers were sunk. Planes from the sunken Hornet and Wasp ... plus squadrons from the Saratoga and Enterprise (not sunk, but badly damaged and forced to withdraw for long periods) were what gave the Cactus Air Force its decisive edge.