Ray-Ray to be Gone-Gone again

[BD80]

If there is any question that Phil Jackson is a smart basketball man:

http://theknicksblog.com/knicks/source-knicks-jackson-told-felton-he-will-be-traded/

Ray Felton the first to go.

[UrinalCake]

Dude killed us in college but has really let himself go. Time for him to retire. And what a dumpster fire the Knicks have become. After missing on Kerr, names that I heard being considered for the coaching job are Derek Fisher (who is still playing right now) and Tyron Lue (who was a backup PG for Phil Jackson maybe a decade ago).

P.S. Does anyone have a link to the youtube club of a Knicks fan watching a game and just verbally destroying Felton the whole time? That was epic.

[CameronBornAndBred]

In February, one NBA executive told SNY.tv: “Felton is the worst starting point guard in the NBA. I’d take 10 college point guards and about 30 NBA backups over him right now.”
Eek!!

[Blue in the Face]

Knicks President Phil Jackson told point guard Raymond Felton during exit meetings last month that he will be traded during the offseason, a league source told SNY.tv.
That's not how you spell "released".

[UrinalCake]

That's not how you spell "released".

I guess having him play for the YMCA rec league counts as "trading" him.

[Henderson]

And Kyrie Irving, the NYC area slinger, sitting over there in Cleveland waiting for a max-extension offer and thinking about his future....

[jimsumner]

Dude killed us in college but has really let himself go. Time for him to retire. And what a dumpster fire the Knicks have become. After missing on Kerr, names that I heard being considered for the coaching job are Derek Fisher (who is still playing right now) and Tyron Lue (who was a backup PG for Phil Jackson maybe a decade ago).

P.S. Does anyone have a link to the youtube club of a Knicks fan watching a game and just verbally destroying Felton the whole time? That was epic.

I think Derek Fisher could make a very good NBA coach.

Then again, I'm not sure the media circus around the Knicks is a good entry-level option.

Mark Jackson is a local. And he's available.

[Billy Dat]

And what a dumpster fire the Knicks have become. After missing on Kerr, names that I heard being considered for the coaching job are Derek Fisher (who is still playing right now) and Tyron Lue (who was a backup PG for Phil Jackson maybe a decade ago).

As a Knicks diehard, I have to quibble a bit with the phrase "have become".

2000 - 2008 was the raging dumpster inferno.
2008 - 2010 was the "Let's Get Lebron" era. At least they had a goal in mind
2011 - 2014 has been ok, 3 playoff appearances in 4 years.

You can't say the Knicks have recently become a dumpster fire because that happened 14 years ago. But, you are correct that missing the playoffs has made the contents of the dumpster a little more flammable.

I refuse to cry about missing on Kerr. This is a case where the tail is wagging the dog. Kerr became a hot coaching name because Jackson was interested in him. He may have had his heart set on Golden State all along. The Mark Jackson situation was deteriorating for a long time. Kerr used the Knicks opening to boost his profile and make him seem like a really hot name. He wound up with the job he probably wanted all along and knew might open up.

I am optimistic about the Phil era. I wish we didn't have to rely only on his former players as potential coaches, especially ones with little to no coaching experience. I want no part of Mark Jackson, the dude seems like a drama queen. Tyron Lue? Maybe...at least he's been on the bench for a while. Considering all the assistants who have recently got head jobs and seem great (Stotts, Clifford, Budenholzer, etc), why not shake those trees? Do I think it's an ominous sign that the guy Phil wanted said no? Not really.

[94duke]

My favorite quote:

In February, one NBA executive told SNY.tv: “Felton is the worst starting point guard in the NBA. I’d take 10 college point guards and about 30 NBA backups over him right now.”
:cool:

[ChillinDuke]

As a Knicks diehard, I have to quibble a bit with the phrase "have become".

2000 - 2008 was the raging dumpster inferno.
2008 - 2010 was the "Let's Get Lebron" era. At least they had a goal in mind
2011 - 2014 has been ok, 3 playoff appearances in 4 years.

You can't say the Knicks have recently become a dumpster fire because that happened 14 years ago. But, you are correct that missing the playoffs has made the contents of the dumpster a little more flammable.

I refuse to cry about missing on Kerr. This is a case where the tail is wagging the dog. Kerr became a hot coaching name because Jackson was interested in him. He may have had his heart set on Golden State all along. The Mark Jackson situation was deteriorating for a long time. Kerr used the Knicks opening to boost his profile and make him seem like a really hot name. He wound up with the job he probably wanted all along and knew might open up.

I am optimistic about the Phil era. I wish we didn't have to rely only on his former players as potential coaches, especially ones with little to no coaching experience. I want no part of Mark Jackson, the dude seems like a drama queen. Tyron Lue? Maybe...at least he's been on the bench for a while. Considering all the assistants who have recently got head jobs and seem great (Stotts, Clifford, Budenholzer, etc), why not shake those trees? Do I think it's an ominous sign that the guy Phil wanted said no? Not really.

Let me preface: I used to be a Knicks diehard. So your POV gets more weight than mine, in terms of blood/sweat/tears.

My Knicks fandom has really taken a monstrous hit. I still follow and root for them, and I'll watch them whenever it's convenient. But it all started in your "raging dumpster inferno" era and then solidified when I got to Duke in 2005 and found a substitute product to devote my blood/sweat/tears to.

First, I couldn't be happier that Felton is gone. UNC or not, that guy just stunk. Couldn't stand him. Good riddance (again).

Second, in terms of the coaching search, I'm really interested to see who signs up for this job. With Dolan's history of putting his hand in everything, the lack of draft picks, the salary cap situation / the Melo situation, and the lack of team success even with Melo (at least this year, and arguably across the last 4 years), it's not remotely surprising to me that Kerr stayed far away (opposite side of the country actually).

The Knicks have serious, structural issues that really make this team, shall I say, less than desirable. At least right now. Both for players and for coaches. I guess for us fans too.

I'll be happy to rejoin you, Billy, in hardcore Knicks fandom when they start playing a brand of basketball that I can truly buy into. Less iso, less hero-ball, more ball movement, and hard-nosed defense. And perhaps the very first step was their getting the heck rid of Raymond Felton. Hopefully for good.

- Chillin

[Olympic Fan]

Dude killed us in college

Really? Felton's record against Duke was 2-5.

He averaged 14.5 points, 8.0 assists and 4.0 turnovers in the two wins (although it should be noted that he was 3-13 from the floor in UNC's 2005 win in Chapel Hill.

Thanks to a 25 point night in his first loss to Duke, he averaged 12.1 points in the five losses ... he also averaged 4.6 assists and 5.0 turnovers in those five games. I'd hardly say he killed us.

Are you sure you are not confusing Felton with Ty Lawson, who did give us a lot of trouble?

[Billy Dat]

Let me preface: I used to be a Knicks diehard. So your POV gets more weight than mine, in terms of blood/sweat/tears.

Ah, Chillin, we need you back. I assume you were too young to really enjoy the Ewing Era? I was born in 1972 so I didn't get to experience the title era. The first real joy for me was Bernard King. The Ewing/Riley Era was pretty great, as was the Ewing/Van Gundy era, which I assume you got a taste of.

You are correct that the brand of ball we've played in recent years isn't great. although last year was pretty good start to finish - a case of being the least objectionable year in 15, I guess. Faint praise, indeed.

Agree about Felton in his current state. He was good when he first got here and was in shape. While he didn't kill Duke, he used to kill the Knicks when he was with Charlotte.

As for the coach, it is hilarious that everyone was so gaga for Kerr when Stan Van was out there. I don't think Stan would ever go work for Jackson, but he's an awesome coach with a fantastic track record.

We shall see...but do come back to the fold. Now that Starter hasn't been seen around these parts for a while, the Knicks fan contingent on DBR is getting smaller and smaller...

[Henderson]

Agree about Felton in his current state. He was good when he first got here and was in shape. While he didn't kill Duke, he used to kill the Knicks when he was with Charlotte.


Then went right on killing them while with NY.

[91_92_01_10_15]

Dude killed us in college but has really let himself go. Time for him to retire. And what a dumpster fire the Knicks have become. After missing on Kerr, names that I heard being considered for the coaching job are Derek Fisher (who is still playing right now) and Tyron Lue (who was a backup PG for Phil Jackson maybe a decade ago).

P.S. Does anyone have a link to the youtube club of a Knicks fan watching a game and just verbally destroying Felton the whole time? That was epic.

Www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K8s2K96GvY (http://Www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K8s2K96GvY)

[NovaScotian]

If there is any question that Phil Jackson is a smart basketball man

i'm as big a knicks fan as anyone, but let's not jump the gun here: i think this clears up that phil is competent, or at least that his eyes work properly.

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

Www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K8s2K96GvY (http://Www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K8s2K96GvY)

The Felton season in review video is here: http://youtu.be/AG2elv1zyb8 (it's even more profane... if that's possible)

[BD80]

Being reported that real reason Knicks lost Kerr was because they lowballed him:

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24565154/report-knicks-lost-out-on-steve-kerr-because-of-3-year-13-million-offer

Knicks offered three years @ $4.33 mil per rather than the 5 yrs @ $4.4 mil per he got at Golden State (not 5yr $25 mil previously reported)

[Dukehky]

Being reported that real reason Knicks lost Kerr was because they lowballed him:

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24565154/report-knicks-lost-out-on-steve-kerr-because-of-3-year-13-million-offer

Knicks offered three years @ $4.33 mil per rather than the 5 yrs @ $4.4 mil per he got at Golden State (not 5yr $25 mil previously reported)

Regardless, that's way too much money for a first year coach... His time as a GM excluded of course. How is he the Golden Boy? I mean don't get me wrong, the NBA is filled with people who can't coach, but people think they can coach. Kerr just took one of their places. All Mark Jackson did was make Disney sports' movie speeches during timeouts. That team had so much talent and underachieved all year. Defense got better because the effort improved, I will give him that, the Dubs loved him, but he had no idea what he was doing X's and O's wise and mishandled all of his staff.

The next name that comes to mind for an NBA coach that people think is good, is Scott Brooks. That dude is just awful. His style of offense is terrible and could be good, and anybody who just drew lines on a whiteboard could draw up a better 10 seconds and under play. If he coached the Grizzlies, they wouldn't have made the playoffs.

God the NBA has really good players, but some of these people are just dumb.

[Edouble]

Regardless, that's way too much money for a first year coach... His time as a GM excluded of course. How is he the Golden Boy? I mean don't get me wrong, the NBA is filled with people who can't coach, but people think they can coach. Kerr just took one of their places. All Mark Jackson did was make Disney sports' movie speeches during timeouts. That team had so much talent and underachieved all year. Defense got better because the effort improved, I will give him that, the Dubs loved him, but he had no idea what he was doing X's and O's wise and mishandled all of his staff.

The next name that comes to mind for an NBA coach that people think is good, is Scott Brooks. That dude is just awful. His style of offense is terrible and could be good, and anybody who just drew lines on a whiteboard could draw up a better 10 seconds and under play. If he coached the Grizzlies, they wouldn't have made the playoffs.

God the NBA has really good players, but some of these people are just dumb.

To play Devil's advocate, it ain't as easy as it looks. We have the GOAT and we couldn't get past Mercer (who got crushed by Tennessee) with two lottery picks.

I would say that Kerr's pedigree under both Phil Jackson and Greg Popovich, the two most successful NBA coaches of the past 25 years, is particularly appealing.

[Des Esseintes]

I would say that Kerr's pedigree under both Phil Jackson and Greg Popovich, the two most successful NBA coaches of the past 25 years, is particularly appealing.

Having competed for a famous coach does not automatically confer tactical and motivational excellence. Drew Gooden has played under Popovich, Doc Rivers, and Rick Carlisle. Stromile Swift played for Jeff Van Gundy and Hubie Brown. I would have concerns about Stromile Swift coaching my basketball team.

[Tappan Zee Devil]

Having competed for a famous coach does not automatically confer tactical and motivational excellence. Drew Gooden has played under Popovich, Doc Rivers, and Rick Carlisle. Stromile Swift played for Jeff Van Gundy and Hubie Brown. I would have concerns about Stromile Swift coaching my basketball team.

Hubie Brown may be a famous coach, but having been at Duke during his days there, I can say that he is NOT a good coach or even an adequate coach, let alone on with "tactical and motivational excellence".

[Des Esseintes]

Hubie Brown may be a famous coach, but having been at Duke during his days there, I can say that he is NOT a good coach or even an adequate coach, let alone on with "tactical and motivational excellence".

I don't understand this statement at all. Brown was an assistant while at Duke. Were you on the team? Because if you weren't, I am curious how you can make such a definitive statement. How can we evaluate the abilities of *any* assistant coach without observing their work directly? Moreover, why should what Hubie Brown's three years as a college assistant at the very start of his career predominate over his accomplishments as an NBA head coach over the succeeding four decades? How is that good analysis? Because Brown did accomplish a great deal--enough to get him into the Hall of Fame on his combined merits as a coach and (superlative, standard-setting) broadcaster.

Why don't you ask Shane Battier if Brown can coach, since the pair of them were instrumental in leading Memphis to its first and completely-unexpected-at-the-time playoff berth?

[BD80]

... Why don't you ask Shane Battier if Brown can coach, since the pair of them were instrumental in leading Memphis to its first and completely-unexpected-at-the-time playoff berth?

And what has Shane ever accomplished that would make his opinion worthwhile?

[Henderson]

Why don't you ask Shane Battier if Brown can coach, since the pair of them were instrumental in leading Memphis to its first and completely-unexpected-at-the-time playoff berth?

Let's let Shane speak for himself. This is from June of 2012, with Battier describing a tipped-ball play:

“I owe that to Hubie Brown,” said Battier. “He’s one of the greatest basketball coaches of all time. He actually coached jump ball situations when we were in Memphis. He covered every situation. I just went back to my teachings with Hubie Brown, he taught us how to steal the tap, and how to anticipate where the ball’s going to go. That’s all coach Brown.”

I think maybe TZD was intentionally speaking in the present tense when he said Hubie Brown "is" not a good coach. Hubie's 80 and retired, so he might have lost his edge.

[OldPhiKap]

How can we evaluate the abilities of *any* assistant coach without observing their work directly?

Unless, of course, we are talking about Wojo developing big men. . . .

[jimsumner]

Hubie Brown is very highly regarded in the great basketball community.

[Olympic Fan]

I was also at Duke when Brown was there ... I was not a player, but I was peripherally involved with the team.

I can tell you that Brown was Bucky's x-and-o man. Jack Schalow, the freshman coach in 1970-71, was the real rah-rah guy on the staff at the time. He was the guy the players loved (his freshman team with Gary Melchionni, Jeff Dawson, Alan Shaw and Richie O'Connor went 16-0).

I have no direct knowledge of Hubie's interaction with the players and in recruiting, but I know he was very, VERY well-regarded as a tactician while at Duke.

[jimsumner]

Brown coached Duke's freshmen my freshman year. That team went 5-13, IIRC.

Then again, the four recruited players were Don Blackman, Stu Yarborough, Robbie West and Pat Doughty.

Blackman was Duke's first recruited African American basketball player and was supposed to be a super prospect. But he was a 6-6 center, with no discernible ball skills.

So, there's that.

Vic Bubas once told me that Hubie Brown had the best basketball mind of anyone he ever knew.

Keep in mind that Chuck Daly was another Bubas assistant. Imagine an alternative universe in which Daly replaces Bubas and the 1970s look a whole lot different.

[Tappan Zee Devil]

I don't understand this statement at all. Brown was an assistant while at Duke. Were you on the team? Because if you weren't, I am curious how you can make such a definitive statement. How can we evaluate the abilities of *any* assistant coach without observing their work directly? Moreover, why should what Hubie Brown's three years as a college assistant at the very start of his career predominate over his accomplishments as an NBA head coach over the succeeding four decades? How is that good analysis? Because Brown did accomplish a great deal--enough to get him into the Hall of Fame on his combined merits as a coach and (superlative, standard-setting) broadcaster.

Why don't you ask Shane Battier if Brown can coach, since the pair of them were instrumental in leading Memphis to its first and completely-unexpected-at-the-time playoff berth?

Sorry - I was thinking of Bucky Waters. Hubie was good.

[Des Esseintes]

Sorry - I was thinking of Bucky Waters. Hubie was good.

That makes a LOT more sense.

[Reilly]

Stromile Swift is no Hubie Brown. That about sums up my thoughts on Ray Felton.

[Edouble]

Having competed for a famous coach does not automatically confer tactical and motivational excellence. Drew Gooden has played under Popovich, Doc Rivers, and Rick Carlisle. Stromile Swift played for Jeff Van Gundy and Hubie Brown. I would have concerns about Stromile Swift coaching my basketball team.

Kerr was a part of 5 NBA Championships with the coaches I mentioned. Shirley, you see the difference. And yes, I will call you Shirley.

[Des Esseintes]

Kerr was a part of 5 NBA Championships with the coaches I mentioned. Shirley, you see the difference. And yes, I will call you Shirley.

I can see the difference. I guess what I would say is that if hiring long-time assistants of legendary coaches is a very hit and miss proposition--and history has shown that to be the case--hiring former players is at least one step further removed from the godhead, one step less reliable. Popovich's assistants have done badly as head coaches; Jackson's assistant Kurt Rambis was one of the most disastrous NBA coaches in recent memory. Kerr meanwhile has no assistant or head coaching experience at all. It looks to me like a massive roll of the dice on the Warriors' part.