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Henderson
05-14-2014, 05:05 PM
The rolling 4 year APR averages for 2012-13 have been released by the NCAA.

Duke tops the ACC in both Men's Basketball and Football.

Guess which school came in last in both sports.

The numbers are searchable by sport, conference, and team. http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/newmedia/public/rates/index5.html

ncexnyc
05-14-2014, 05:17 PM
The rolling 4 year APR averages for 2012-13 have been released by the NCAA.

Duke tops the ACC in both Men's Basketball and Football.

Guess which school came in last in both sports.

The numbers are searchable by sport, conference, and team. http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/newmedia/public/rates/index5.html

LOL. No need to guess as I already made my daily visit to Pack Pride. They are loving this and they've pointed out that the heels APR has been going down steadily for the last four years, something which they say isn't a coincidence.

Faustus
05-14-2014, 05:37 PM
I'm shocked, shocked, to find such academic underachievement going on in my nightclub... um, revered university.

BigWayne
05-14-2014, 07:24 PM
As pointed out at PP, UNC has been dropping the last 4 years pretty quickly. Based on the listed 4 year numbers for UNC Men's BB,
they need a really good year this year or they will be in trouble.

Newton_14
05-14-2014, 07:35 PM
As pointed out at PP, UNC has been dropping the last 4 years pretty quickly. Based on the listed 4 year numbers for UNC Men's BB,
they need a really good year this year or they will be in trouble.

Gee, those real classes are a .... well DBR is a family site and all...

Ah the karma. Ghost Classes disappear in 2010, APR nosedives year over year every year since. Please God let them have to miss the tourney soon due to APR scores. Even the NCAA won't be able to ignore that factoid....

Henderson
05-14-2014, 08:57 PM
IC has been pretty interesting on this. It's a mix of "This is embarrassing" "This is nothing" and "This is just, like, ya know, SOO unfair. Ohmygod."

Tarheelblog's take (http://www.tarheelblog.com/2014/5/14/5718022/uncs-football-and-basketball-apr-scores-are-a-tad-worrisome): "Hmm, this isn't good." If my calculations are right, the holes need a 935 in basketball next year to avoid penalties for missing the 930 four-year mark. They got 917 in the most recently reported year and have a 938 four year average.

Duvall
05-14-2014, 09:01 PM
State fans *may* want to focus a bit more on matters closer to home: (http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/05/14/3862009/unc-nc-state-struggle-in-mens.html?sp=/99/103/119/269/)


North Carolina and N.C. State share the dubious distinction of being the poorest-scoring schools in the ACC in men’s basketball and football Academic Progress Rate, which the NCAA released on Wednesday.

UNC has the worst four-year APR score in the ACC in both men’s basketball (938) and football (938), while N.C. State had the worst scores in both sports for the 2012-13 academic year – the most recent one for which figures are available.

cspan37421
05-14-2014, 10:36 PM
Seems to me it's a bit hard to judge. If they're high, is it because of fake or easy classes? If they're low, could it be due to having real standards?

With no external validation, a low APR seems easy to fix: "Give my players passing grades."

MarkD83
05-14-2014, 10:46 PM
Is a University penalized in the APR if a player turns pro or does that not matter as long as they are in good standing?

My real question is UNC already in trouble because Hairston left the program and may not have been in good standing for the Spring semester.

dpslaw
05-14-2014, 11:39 PM
IC has been pretty interesting on this. It's a mix of "This is embarrassing" "This is nothing" and "This is just, like, ya know, SOO unfair. Ohmygod."

Tarheelblog's take (http://www.tarheelblog.com/2014/5/14/5718022/uncs-football-and-basketball-apr-scores-are-a-tad-worrisome): "Hmm, this isn't good." If my calculations are right, the holes need a 935 in basketball next year to avoid penalties for missing the 930 four-year mark. They got 917 in the most recently reported year and have a 938 four year average.

On the other hand, the headline over at GoHeels.com is "Tar Heels Excel in Latest APR."

UrinalCake
05-15-2014, 12:49 AM
Is a University penalized in the APR if a player turns pro or does that not matter as long as they are in good standing?

My real question is UNC already in trouble because Hairston left the program and may not have been in good standing for the Spring semester.


My understanding is that if a player leaves early for the NBA but is in good academic standing, then the school is not penalized. The same is true for transfers. This is how Kentucky can continue to bring in a revolving door of one-and-done's.

It's pretty obvious why UNC lied to Hairston and told him that they were seeking his reinstatement, when in fact they were not. They needed him to continue going to class and finish out the semester. Then, two days after the fall semester ended they announced that they would not seek reinstatement from the NCAA.

I believe that Hairston will still count against them for the spring semester. However, that won't affect this year's APR. The calculation used for this upcoming school year is the four-year window ending in 2012-2013, so Hairston will start counting against them NEXT year.

BigWayne
05-15-2014, 02:29 AM
My understanding is that if a player leaves early for the NBA but is in good academic standing, then the school is not penalized. The same is true for transfers. This is how Kentucky can continue to bring in a revolving door of one-and-done's.

It's pretty obvious why UNC lied to Hairston and told him that they were seeking his reinstatement, when in fact they were not. They needed him to continue going to class and finish out the semester. Then, two days after the fall semester ended they announced that they would not seek reinstatement from the NCAA.

I believe that Hairston will still count against them for the spring semester. However, that won't affect this year's APR. The calculation used for this upcoming school year is the four-year window ending in 2012-2013, so Hairston will start counting against them NEXT year.

Yes, the key is that guys going pro need to finish the semester with a passing GPA. If they bail in early April, they cost the team APR points.

brevity
05-15-2014, 03:13 AM
On the other hand, the headline over at GoHeels.com is "Tar Heels Excel in Latest APR."

In their defense, they meant to say "Tar Heels in Latest APR Excel," where they used "Excel" as headline shorthand for "spreadsheet table." The Tar Heels do in fact appear in the latest spreadsheet table.

4132

MarkD83
05-15-2014, 06:20 AM
My understanding is that if a player leaves early for the NBA but is in good academic standing, then the school is not penalized. The same is true for transfers. This is how Kentucky can continue to bring in a revolving door of one-and-done's.

It's pretty obvious why UNC lied to Hairston and told him that they were seeking his reinstatement, when in fact they were not. They needed him to continue going to class and finish out the semester. Then, two days after the fall semester ended they announced that they would not seek reinstatement from the NCAA.

I believe that Hairston will still count against them for the spring semester. However, that won't affect this year's APR. The calculation used for this upcoming school year is the four-year window ending in 2012-2013, so Hairston will start counting against them NEXT year.

Thanks. This also had me thinking about a way out for the NCAA in the UNC mess. UNC has already told other undergraduates that the "paper classes" did not count and has forced them to take classes to replace those credits. If that is the precedent that UNC has set then the classes should not count for athletes. This then means that the NCAA can recalculate APR scores and determine when UNC fell below the required APR and declare those years as years UNC should have been banned from the NCAAs. No chance of this happening but it does allow the NCAA NOT to reopen a lengthy investigation, just have UNC tell them who was taking what classes at what time.

Dr. Rosenrosen
05-15-2014, 07:03 AM
Seems to me it's a bit hard to judge. If they're high, is it because of fake or easy classes? If they're low, could it be due to having real standards?

With no external validation, a low APR seems easy to fix: "Give my players passing grades."
Right. In at least two sports, the cheaters WERE "fixing" it with much more than just passing grades. Now that the game's up, they seem not to be able to find enough algebra 101 classes to help the cause.

lotusland
05-15-2014, 07:21 AM
UNC may be struggling now while they are under the media spotlight but for everyone else the NCAA sent a clear message in how they handled UConn vs UNC. It doesn't matter how you accomplish it, just don't embarrass us or call the student athlete facade into question. UK has a perfect APR. Nothing more needs to be said.

MCFinARL
05-15-2014, 08:43 AM
I'm curious why Duke does not have a perfect basketball APR for this period (2010-2013). I think Gbinije finished his semester before transferring to Syracuse and was presumably in good academic standing. Kyrie finished his semester before entering the draft. Everyone who stayed four years graduated. And no one missed any time because they were academically ineligible. Did Austin Rivers not finish his second semester?

JasonEvans
05-15-2014, 09:05 AM
It's pretty obvious why UNC lied to Hairston and told him that they were seeking his reinstatement, when in fact they were not. They needed him to continue going to class and finish out the semester. Then, two days after the fall semester ended they announced that they would not seek reinstatement from the NCAA.

I believe that Hairston will still count against them for the spring semester. However, that won't affect this year's APR. The calculation used for this upcoming school year is the four-year window ending in 2012-2013, so Hairston will start counting against them NEXT year.

My bet is that Hairston withdrew prior to the start of the spring semester. As far as the NCAA is concerned, his last semester (from an APR standpoint) was last fall and he was in good standing when he left the school to go to the NBA-DL. I doubt he will count against the school's APR.

UNC is certainly well aware of how APR works and what goes into it. Unless something really unforeseen happens, they won't allow their APR to drop into the "skip the tourney" range.

-Jason "anyone know if JMM dropped out after declaring?" Evans

Olympic Fan
05-15-2014, 10:06 AM
You guys have it right -- APR basically measures the percentage of athletes who complete the semesters they are enrolled in. I very much doubt that PJ Hairston enrolled in the spring semester. For guys turning pro -- there is no penalty if they finish their current semester in good academic standing.

As for the drop in UNC's numbers, I think that's a function of the discovery and elimination of the fake classes and phony grades that artificially inflated the school's APR and graduation rate for years. With those classes finally eliminated, we're seeing how far UNC has pushed the academic envelope for football and basketball (and baseball) players.

Clay Feet POF
05-15-2014, 10:38 AM
I'm shocked, shocked, to find such academic underachievement going on in my nightclub... um, revered university.

Louie, this could be the beginning of a............

UrinalCake
05-15-2014, 10:49 AM
As for the drop in UNC's numbers, I think that's a function of the discovery and elimination of the fake classes and phony grades that artificially inflated the school's APR and graduation rate for years. With those classes finally eliminated, we're seeing how far UNC has pushed the academic envelope for football and basketball (and baseball) players.

The APR calculation uses an all-or-nothing point system. If a player is in good academic standing then he earns the school a point. Otherwise he doesn't. There is no difference between getting an A in a class or getting a C. So the question is, how many of UNC's players failed classes as a result of actually having to attend them? Which also speaks to McFinArl's question - how many Duke players had semesters when they weren't in good academic standing?

I can't find a definition anywhere of what the NCAA means by "good academic standing." Does failing one class take you out of that category? Is it not maintaining a minimum overall GPA? Or is it different for each school depending on their own grading system and the average grades of the overall (including non-athletes) student population? I haven't heard of any UNC or Duke students actually being declared academically ineligible in the past four years (maybe Will Graves would count?), but who knows what situations could have arisen that aren't made public for privacy reasons. And we don't know for sure which players who left early continued to keep up with their class work, for either school.

Olympic Fan
05-15-2014, 11:14 AM
The APR calculation uses an all-or-nothing point system. If a player is in good academic standing then he earns the school a point. Otherwise he doesn't. There is no difference between getting an A in a class or getting a C. So the question is, how many of UNC's players failed classes as a result of actually having to attend them? Which also speaks to McFinArl's question - how many Duke players had semesters when they weren't in good academic standing?

I can't find a definition anywhere of what the NCAA means by "good academic standing."

Pretty sure that means the student completes the semester with the grade level that would allow him to enroll for the next semester without academic penalty.

On the whole, the NCAA allows schools to set their own standards for advancement ... but about a decade ago, they did establish minimum standards for the percentage of courses completed each year (the minimum is not quite one-fourth of the courses needed for graduation). One oddity -- the NCAA minimum only kicks in at the end of each school year ... not at the end of each semester. At a majority of schools, it's impossible to be academically ineligible after the first semester.

Duke is one of the rare schools that does impose academic penalties after one semester -- as Phil Henderson and Welden Williams can attest (and more recently Jela Duncan).

And UC, you are right that it makes no difference if a player has all A's or all C's ... and even an F or two doesn't necessarily cause a problem.

cato
05-15-2014, 11:27 AM
UNC may be struggling now while they are under the media spotlight but for everyone else the NCAA sent a clear message in how they handled UConn vs UNC. It doesn't matter how you accomplish it, just don't embarrass us or call the student athlete facade into question. UK has a perfect APR. Nothing more needs to be said.

I don't like the insinuation that a perfect APR score for UK means the kids there are cheating. Could they be? Sure. So could kids at Duke.

If anyone has evidence of cheating, please share it. Otherwise, it is best to assume that the players at UK showed up and took care of business in the class room, just as they did on the court.

Now, if they had picked a school known for cheating, that would be different. But they made the decision to go to UK rather than UNC, so deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Henderson
05-15-2014, 12:04 PM
Pretty sure that means the student completes the semester with the grade level that would allow him to enroll for the next semester without academic penalty.

The two criteria for the APR are enrollment and good academic standing. To get full credit, a student-athlete needs to stay at the school and remain in good academic standing. If a player drops out of school while in good academic standing, that is half-bad for the school. If a player remains enrolled but is not in good academic standing, that's half-bad. If the player drops out of school while not in good academic standing, that's fully-bad. If a player leaves early to go pro, that doesn't count against the school if the player is in good academic standing when he leaves. But if the player leaves to go pro while not in good academic standing, the school gets the double-whammy: fully bad. I assume (but don't know) that the same rule applies to transfers.

What is "good academic standing" for NCAA purposes? The formula is complicated. It requires a minimum number of passing credits per term and a minimum number of passing credits per academic year. There is also a cumulative GPA requirement. And those requirements trend upward as a player continues in school. There is also a requirement that you declare a major by the third year. So at the end of each term, your cumulative and term numbers are measured against the criteria. And you either are or are not "in good academic standing." If not, your school's APR takes a hit, and every school has some sort of probation before a player has drifted all the way down to "academically ineligible.". But because of FERPA, schools don't release info about who is or is not in good academic standing at any given time, so we don't know how things are going in real time -- only when the prior year's APR comes out, and even then we don't know who the "bad apples" were who pulled the number down.

Because academic standing is calculated term by term and is based on GPA and credits successfully completed, a school could have 100% of its players graduate on time and still have a crappy APR. The converse is not true, however: If your players leave without graduating, your APR takes a hit, and doubly so if a player not in good academic standing drops out. Having a perfect APR means that every player every term has made satisfactory progress on the NCAA "good standing" criteria. It doesn't vouch for the types of classes (or even the bona fides of those classes) taken to get there.

BD80
05-15-2014, 01:06 PM
... UNC is certainly well aware of how APR works and what goes into it. Unless something really unforeseen happens, they won't allow their APR to drop into the "skip the tourney" range.

-Jason "anyone know if JMM dropped out after declaring?" Evans

But it was my understanding that unc had no idea that its athletes were involved in taking paper classes.

How could they be completely aware on one hand and completely unaware on the other?

I beginning to think perhaps someone at unc has not been entirely forthright ...

77devil
05-15-2014, 01:38 PM
UNC may be struggling now while they are under the media spotlight but for everyone else the NCAA sent a clear message in how they handled UConn vs UNC. It doesn't matter how you accomplish it, just don't embarrass us or call the student athlete facade into question. UK has a perfect APR. Nothing more needs to be said.


I don't like the insinuation that a perfect APR score for UK means the kids there are cheating. Could they be? Sure. So could kids at Duke.

If anyone has evidence of cheating, please share it. Otherwise, it is best to assume that the players at UK showed up and took care of business in the class room, just as they did on the court.

Now, if they had picked a school known for cheating, that would be different. But they made the decision to go to UK rather than UNC, so deserve the benefit of the doubt.

I almost fell off my chair when I read above that UK, The University of Kentucky, had a perfect APR. And, indeed, it is a school well known for cheating. But my equilibrium was restored when I determined that it was KU, The University of Kansas, instead of UK, that has a perfect score, though I still find it somewhat improbable.

BigWayne
05-15-2014, 04:03 PM
But it was my understanding that unc had no idea that its athletes were involved in taking paper classes.

How could they be completely aware on one hand and completely unaware on the other?

I beginning to think perhaps someone at unc has not been entirely forthright ...

The guy I would like to have questioned under oath is Robert Mercer. I don't know why his name
doesn't come up more often in UNC scandal news stories.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/02/07/2662557/athletics-program-shares-fraud.html

johnb
05-15-2014, 04:22 PM
The Daily Oklahoman is reporting that Oklahoma State is getting dinged for its football APR which barely missed the 930 (they got a 929.41; 0.09 higher and it would have been rounded up to 930).

Punishment? one fewer day of football practice throughout the season plus a reduction of two additional hours of practice/week. While not as bad as a bowl ban like that apparently received by UNLV and Idaho, it's pretty significant. As the article points out, penalties have been largely restricted to sports away from football. Hitting OSU, which lives for football, is a big deal.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/eye-on-college-football/24562319/report-apr-penalty-to-cost-oklahoma-st-day-of-practice-per-week

MCFinARL
05-15-2014, 04:30 PM
The two criteria for the APR are enrollment and good academic standing. To get full credit, a student-athlete needs to stay at the school and remain in good academic standing. If a player drops out of school while in good academic standing, that is half-bad for the school. If a player remains enrolled but is not in good academic standing, that's half-bad. If the player drops out of school while not in good academic standing, that's fully-bad. If a player leaves early to go pro, that doesn't count against the school if the player is in good academic standing when he leaves. But if the player leaves to go pro while not in good academic standing, the school gets the double-whammy: fully bad. I assume (but don't know) that the same rule applies to transfers.

What is "good academic standing" for NCAA purposes? The formula is complicated. It requires a minimum number of passing credits per term and a minimum number of passing credits per academic year. There is also a cumulative GPA requirement. And those requirements trend upward as a player continues in school. There is also a requirement that you declare a major by the third year. So at the end of each term, your cumulative and term numbers are measured against the criteria. And you either are or are not "in good academic standing." If not, your school's APR takes a hit, and every school has some sort of probation before a player has drifted all the way down to "academically ineligible.". But because of FERPA, schools don't release info about who is or is not in good academic standing at any given time, so we don't know how things are going in real time -- only when the prior year's APR comes out, and even then we don't know who the "bad apples" were who pulled the number down.

Because academic standing is calculated term by term and is based on GPA and credits successfully completed, a school could have 100% of its players graduate on time and still have a crappy APR. The converse is not true, however: If your players leave without graduating, your APR takes a hit, and doubly so if a player not in good academic standing drops out. Having a perfect APR means that every player every term has made satisfactory progress on the NCAA "good standing" criteria. It doesn't vouch for the types of classes (or even the bona fides of those classes) taken to get there.

Thanks. I think this thorough explanation answers my question about Duke; I was assuming that if a player was not in "good academic standing" he would be ineligible for some period of time. But if that is not the case, clearly someone could have cost Duke a point or so along the way by having a bad semester and we would never know--which is as it should be. As long as the student is maintaining the academic standing necessary to play, it's none of our business.


I almost fell off my chair when I read above that UK, The University of Kentucky, had a perfect APR. And, indeed, it is a school well known for cheating. But my equilibrium was restored when I determined that it was KU, The University of Kansas, instead of UK, that has a perfect score, though I still find it somewhat improbable.

Well, it appears Kentucky does have an APR of 1000--but that is just for 2012-13. Their multi-year rate (these are the 4-year cumulative numbers that are, I believe, the ones published on the front page) for 2010-2013 is 989, which was a considerable jump from its previous score of 963. So clearly either last year was just an exceptional year for the program or they are paying closer attention to keeping it up, one way or another. I'm going to try to control my cynicism and give them the benefit of the doubt; the truth is it's no great challenge to eke out a pass in real classes at most schools, and certainly at state schools that serve a pretty broad range of the population, if you are careful about what classes you sign up for and actually complete the assignments. Obviously it gets harder if you stay in school longer and take higher-level classes.

MCFinARL
05-15-2014, 04:32 PM
The Daily Oklahoman is reporting that Oklahoma State is getting dinged for its football APR which barely missed the 930 (they got a 929.41; 0.09 higher and it would have been rounded up to 930).

Punishment? one fewer day of football practice throughout the season plus a reduction of two additional hours of practice/week. While not as bad as a bowl ban like that apparently received by UNLV and Idaho, it's pretty significant. As the article points out, penalties have been largely restricted to sports away from football. Hitting OSU, which lives for football, is a big deal.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/eye-on-college-football/24562319/report-apr-penalty-to-cost-oklahoma-st-day-of-practice-per-week

What I like about this is that it is a penalty that is directly related to the problem--i.e., if there is less practice time, that is theoretically time athletes could spend keeping up with their school work.

johnb
05-15-2014, 04:50 PM
Thanks. I think this thorough explanation answers my question about Duke; I was assuming that if a player was not in "good academic standing" he would be ineligible for some period of time. But if that is not the case, clearly someone could have cost Duke a point or so along the way by having a bad semester and we would never know--which is as it should be. As long as the student is maintaining the academic standing necessary to play, it's none of our business.



Well, it appears Kentucky does have an APR of 1000--but that is just for 2012-13. Their multi-year rate (these are the 4-year cumulative numbers that are, I believe, the ones published on the front page) for 2010-2013 is 989, which was a considerable jump from its previous score of 963. So clearly either last year was just an exceptional year for the program or they are paying closer attention to keeping it up, one way or another. I'm going to try to control my cynicism and give them the benefit of the doubt; the truth is it's no great challenge to eke out a pass in real classes at most schools, and certainly at state schools that serve a pretty broad range of the population, if you are careful about what classes you sign up for and actually complete the assignments. Obviously it gets harder if you stay in school longer and take higher-level classes.


While the UK coach has some chinks in his academic armor, I don't recall any particular negative junk about the Kentucky players over the past 5 or 10 years. More than one also received a Duke offer, and if they continue to go to classes in the spring when they know that they are going pro, more power to them...

MCFinARL
05-15-2014, 05:46 PM
While the UK coach has some chinks in his academic armor, I don't recall any particular negative junk about the Kentucky players over the past 5 or 10 years. More than one also received a Duke offer, and if they continue to go to classes in the spring when they know that they are going pro, more power to them...

Yes, I agree--there were some questions about Eric Bledsoe, who just makes it into your 5-year time frame, but they pertained more to his qualifying record than his record once he got to Kentucky.

rocketeli
05-18-2014, 10:03 AM
What I like about this is that it is a penalty that is directly related to the problem--i.e., if there is less practice time, that is theoretically time athletes could spend keeping up with their school work.

It could actually work in OSUs favor. Addition by subtraction, work expands to fill the time available, etc. etc. Practices will have to be more efficient, players will have less chance to be injured, and be better rested. Of course, they'll probably make the least of their opportunity by sneaking in "voluntary" work outs somewhere.

Henderson
05-18-2014, 10:22 AM
It could actually work in OSUs favor. Addition by subtraction, work expands to fill the time available, etc. etc. Practices will have to be more efficient, players will have less chance to be injured, and be better rested. Of course, they'll probably make the least of their opportunity by sneaking in "voluntary" work outs somewhere.

I disagree. If holding fewer practices would benefit a team, a team could just hold fewer practices than allowed, and I'm sure they do. There is no advantage to OSU's team in having it forced on them. But as MCFinARL pointed out, it could allow for more book time, meaning it may benefit individual players in their course work.

Falling below the APR threshold is bad on a lot of fronts, but I think losing practice time is the least of it. It looks bad to recruits and their parents and is an embarrassment to the school. It also could lead to more serious consequences if the situation isn't improved. It also happens to be a very common compensation metric in head coaches' contracts.

Kfanarmy
05-19-2014, 09:18 AM
I don't like the insinuation that a perfect APR score for UK means the kids there are cheating. Could they be? Sure. So could kids at Duke.

If anyone has evidence of cheating, please share it. Otherwise, it is best to assume that the players at UK showed up and took care of business in the class room, just as they did on the court.

Now, if they had picked a school known for cheating, that would be different. But they made the decision to go to UK rather than UNC, so deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Right because John Calipari has run clean programs everywhere he's been....No. Wait a minute. Maybe? What were you saying about UK?