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flyingdutchdevil
05-13-2014, 09:20 AM
ESPN College Basketball is nearly as bored as we are; they've turned to analyzing position battles within teams: http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/98951/position-battles-point-guards

Their first analysis? Point guards. Not surprisingly, they bring up Cook v Jones which, IMO, is absolutely a battle. I can't see both Tyus and Cook logging meaningful minutes together, especially given that a) both aren't good defensive players, b) both are quite petite and would get destroyed at the 2, and c) both need the ball in their hands to be the most effective.

Anywho, I thought I'd start this thread to talk about Cook v Jones. I hope this thread doesn't turn into a minutes game, but I'm sure it will. Rather, it would be great to talk about the merits and limitations of each player and the feasibility of the two either starting or playing at the same time.

Both are great players and we are lucky to have them. IMO, I see Cook getting the starting nod. He is experienced, he is a really good passer (maybe not as good as Tyus), and he's a better shooter. Also, according to C.J. Brown, he's a better defender, although if this is true than Tyus must have the reputation of being a really bad defender.

uh_no
05-13-2014, 09:28 AM
Cook is a much better defender

We know that quinn is not a great defender....so if they can claim as they did, then either someone didn't do their research, or they're REALLY bearish on Tyus' defense.

superdave
05-13-2014, 09:43 AM
Quinn is listed at 6'2'' and 180 lbs. Tyus is listed at 6'1'' and 171 lbs. So you are right that they are both smallish. Although I would point out that Coach K has gone pretty small recently, with Seth, Quinn and Rasheed at 1-2-3 and Tyler playing significant minutes. So yes, a small backcourt is possible.

I would say the immediate strengths that come to mind for both guys are 3-point shooting for Quinn and passing for Tyus. Keep in mind I have not seen Tyus play and most people here probably have not either. I have also seen Quinn take over games in the spread offense late and look like Isiah as the front page article said. I hope Tyus and Jahlil can learn to make the pick and roll work next season. That would be destructive.

As for weaknesses, Quinn's biggest weakness seems to be losing focus. He would make brilliant plays for a half, even on the defensive end. Then he would look lost for another half. I recall him absolutely hounding Cat Barber off the court in Cameron back in January. It was pretty awesome. I can also recall ole' defense, forced shots early in the clock and some bonehead turnovers.

I do not know what Tyus' weaknesses are. I hope on-ball defense is not one of them. If it is, I'd hope we put Rasheed on the opposing PG and have Quinn/Tyus guard the 2.

But having an experienced senior point and a top-5 freshman point on the roster is a good problem to have. Hopefully we play more up tempo because two points pushing pace, directing the break along with the athletes we have (Okafor and Plumlee both run the floor pretty well) would be a great thing.

My guess is the starting 1 spot is Tyus' if he can take it. I think seeing Quinn come off the bench the final 6 or so weeks of the season, while still playing starter minutes and finishing games, may have been a pre-emptive effort by Coach K to make sure there is no PG controversy next season. Quinn is a veteran and will contribute however he can. He will still command big minutes. But defense is going to get you on the floor this season. I look forward to figuring out how good a defender Tyus is.

jimsumner
05-13-2014, 10:08 AM
I'll be very surprised if we don't see Cook and T. Jones on the court at the same time with some regularity.

There are lots of precedents for this, including the last few years, when Tyler Thornton started at the 2. Dawkins/Amaker, Amaker/Snyder, Hurley/McCaffrey, Wojo/Avery/Williams, Duhon, Paulus/Dockery are among the smaller combos that have played extensively for K at the 1-2 over the years.

I've always felt that Cook has the potential to be an exceptional defender and he has been that on occasions. But he lacks focus and consistency. Can he find those attributes and have a big senior season? Fingers crossed.

Kedsy
05-13-2014, 10:13 AM
I expect they'll both start at the beginning of the season, along with Rasheed, with Justise (and Matt) coming off the bench. I think we'll continue with that for as long as it works.

As the season unfolds, if it appears Tyus and Quinn playing together is problematic, then I'd expect one of them (probably Quinn but it will presumably depend entirely on performance to date) would come off the bench with Justise (probably) starting at SF.

Saratoga2
05-13-2014, 10:16 AM
ESPN College Basketball is nearly as bored as we are; they've turned to analyzing position battles within teams: http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/98951/position-battles-point-guards

Their first analysis? Point guards. Not surprisingly, they bring up Cook v Jones which, IMO, is absolutely a battle. I can't see both Tyus and Cook logging meaningful minutes together, especially given that a) both aren't good defensive players, b) both are quite petite and would get destroyed at the 2, and c) both need the ball in their hands to be the most effective.

Anywho, I thought I'd start this thread to talk about Cook v Jones. I hope this thread doesn't turn into a minutes game, but I'm sure it will. Rather, it would be great to talk about the merits and limitations of each player and the feasibility of the two either starting or playing at the same time.

Both are great players and we are lucky to have them. IMO, I see Cook getting the starting nod. He is experienced, he is a really good passer (maybe not as good as Tyus), and he's a better shooter. Also, according to C.J. Brown, he's a better defender, although if this is true than Tyus must have the reputation of being a really bad defender.

They both will play point. Its more of an and than a vs.

MCFinARL
05-13-2014, 10:43 AM
In his post-season press conference, Coach K described Tyus Jones as an "outstanding leader," and IIRC said that Quinn Cook is most effective as a shooter. Obviously, Coach K has many reasons for saying the things he does, and not everything he says about the future plays out. But this at least suggests that he is thinking about the possibility of having both players on the court at the same time. (edit: I see others have suggested this could happen while I was writing this post.)

Re Cook's defense, I think superdave is on to something. I don't think it is accurate to say that Cook is bad at defense--at times, he plays very good defense, albeit he is limited in terms of lateral quickness (possibly resulting from his knee injury in high school). But it is certainly accurate to say that he plays inconsistent defense, and focus may well be the issue.

In terms of the mental game, Quinn is a bit of an enigma; few players show more desire on a basketball court, and when he is on and can channel that desire, he can take over games. But he doesn't always seem to be able to channel that desire into focus and sound decision-making. He can make some of the most spectacular passes imaginable and also some of the most careless, get around defenders to score at the end of the shot clock or get trapped in the corner.

I'm sure both he and the coaches must have tried to work on this; maybe the fiery emotion that makes him good is also what sometimes leads him into error, in which case there might be no easy solution. Or maybe he/they will figure it out this coming season. The coach-player relationship may figure in here somewhere as well. It probably hasn't been easy to spend three years as not-Tyler and now look forward to spending a year as not-Tyus.

I'm looking forward to seeing Tyus Jones on the court. But I'm a big Cook fan and hope that, one way or another, he has a strong last season.

flyingdutchdevil
05-13-2014, 10:59 AM
In his post-season press conference, Coach K described Tyus Jones as an "outstanding leader," and IIRC said that Quinn Cook is most effective as a shooter. Obviously, Coach K has many reasons for saying the things he does, and not everything he says about the future plays out. But this at least suggests that he is thinking about the possibility of having both players on the court at the same time. (edit: I see others have suggested this could happen while I was writing this post.)

Re Cook's defense, I think superdave is on to something. I don't think it is accurate to say that Cook is bad at defense--at times, he plays very good defense, albeit he is limited in terms of lateral quickness (possibly resulting from his knee injury in high school). But it is certainly accurate to say that he plays inconsistent defense, and focus may well be the issue.

In terms of the mental game, Quinn is a bit of an enigma; few players show more desire on a basketball court, and when he is on and can channel that desire, he can take over games. But he doesn't always seem to be able to channel that desire into focus and sound decision-making. He can make some of the most spectacular passes imaginable and also some of the most careless, get around defenders to score at the end of the shot clock or get trapped in the corner.

I'm sure both he and the coaches must have tried to work on this; maybe the fiery emotion that makes him good is also what sometimes leads him into error, in which case there might be no easy solution. Or maybe he/they will figure it out this coming season. The coach-player relationship may figure in here somewhere as well. It probably hasn't been easy to spend three years as not-Tyler and now look forward to spending a year as not-Tyus.

I'm looking forward to seeing Tyus Jones on the court. But I'm a big Cook fan and hope that, one way or another, he has a strong last season.

Every year in the off-season, posters have predicted that Cook will be better at defense. "Better" has been referred to as more consistent, more effective at on-ball D, more effective at preventing penetration, and more steals. The only stat that you can back up is steals, which has increased on a per-minute basis every year.

However, I don't think that Cook is very good at one-on-one D or help defense. He gambles. He doesn't have lateral quickness. He picks up his aggressive D way too soon (although that's one K, not Cook). IMO, I think Cook is a very subpar defender. Also, it seems pretty well established amongst recruiting gurus and college ball gurus that Tyus is not a good defender.

Historically, when we've had two PGs, usually one of them had excellent D: Duhon, N. Smith, Dockery, Dawkins. In the cases where neither PG is an exceptional defender, like Thornton, it's because that guy can effectively guard the 2 (or, in Thornton's case, the 3 as well). Do you really see Cook and Tyus working together on the defensive end? I can see the offensive game plan (although I feel that both players like having the ball in their hands), but the defensive end? Don't see it at all.

Kedsy may be right - we may absolutely see Cook and Tyus starting out together, but I'd be shocked if it was like that by January. If it is, I'll assume it's because Cook turned into a really good defender (or because Winslow, M. Jones, and Allen just aren't working. I hope it's not this case).

flyingdutchdevil
05-13-2014, 11:04 AM
I'll be very surprised if we don't see Cook and T. Jones on the court at the same time with some regularity.

There are lots of precedents for this, including the last few years, when Tyler Thornton started at the 2. Dawkins/Amaker, Amaker/Snyder, Hurley/McCaffrey, Wojo/Avery/Williams, Duhon, Paulus/Dockery are among the smaller combos that have played extensively for K at the 1-2 over the years.

I've always felt that Cook has the potential to be an exceptional defender and he has been that on occasions. But he lacks focus and consistency. Can he find those attributes and have a big senior season? Fingers crossed.

Jim - every pairing that you listed includes a defensive great (maybe not McCaffrey. Was he really good at D?). Cook does not fit that bill at all (and Tyus and "good defense" haven't been written in the same sentence thus far). If they play a lot together, then Cook definitely figured it out.

But, as I've been posting, we haven't seen a consistent, ball-stopping Cook in his three years at Duke. My heart tells me to be optimistic, but my brain is telling me to look at historical data.

Kedsy
05-13-2014, 11:15 AM
(maybe not McCaffrey. Was he really good at D?)

Hurley was an exceptional defender. So your observation still holds there.

dukelifer
05-13-2014, 11:29 AM
I expect Quinn will raise his game this year. Lots of motivation to do so and he is a senior. Tyus will push him as well. Quinn will need to be a better distributor with a big man in the middle- but his long range shooting is better than Tyus's at this point. Duke will have little drop off when one goes in for the other. That is good.

jimsumner
05-13-2014, 11:39 AM
Jim - every pairing that you listed includes a defensive great (maybe not McCaffrey. Was he really good at D?). Cook does not fit that bill at all (and Tyus and "good defense" haven't been written in the same sentence thus far). If they play a lot together, then Cook definitely figured it out.

But, as I've been posting, we haven't seen a consistent, ball-stopping Cook in his three years at Duke. My heart tells me to be optimistic, but my brain is telling me to look at historical data.

Perhaps. But that's a different discussion than "Jones and Cook can't play together because they're too small."

UrinalCake
05-13-2014, 11:58 AM
I'm not too concerned about playing two small guards. The last two national champions have started two small guards. I think it's fairly common in college ball, and we'd have the flexibility to make changes as needed for an individual matchup. I'm more concerned with having to play THREE small guards, which we've seen in recent years. And I do think that will happen this season as well, given our personnel

I think Quinn will be excellent as an off-guard. He's a streaky shooter but when he's on he can be really good. He has the ability to break down his defender. But he's not a particularly good decision-maker IMO, and playing as the 2 will take away the need for him to run the team.

At the same time, I still think he's the starting point guard as of today. Tyus's high school highlights are great, but let's see how he does at the next level.

ChillinDuke
05-13-2014, 12:00 PM
Jim - every pairing that you listed includes a defensive great (maybe not McCaffrey. Was he really good at D?). Cook does not fit that bill at all (and Tyus and "good defense" haven't been written in the same sentence thus far). If they play a lot together, then Cook definitely figured it out.

But, as I've been posting, we haven't seen a consistent, ball-stopping Cook in his three years at Duke. My heart tells me to be optimistic, but my brain is telling me to look at historical data.

Key word bolded.

I agree with this insofar as it's emphasizing consistency. Quinn Cook has, IMO, displayed exceptional on ball defense at times, shadowing and hounding players all over the court. Is my memory faulty if I believe he drew more 5-second calls last year than any of our other defenders in, say, the last 5 years?

The issue is that it's only at times. And as others have pointed out, those exceptional instances are often counteracted by instances of very poor blow-by's.

- Chillin

sagegrouse
05-13-2014, 12:24 PM
Not only will Tyus and Quinn be on the court together, but -- knowing K as we do -- there will also be periods when Okafor is joined by four guards -- Tyus, Quinn, Matt, and Rasheed.

Ichabod Drain
05-13-2014, 12:41 PM
Interestingly enough the ESPN article on shooting guard position battle has Sulaimon vs Allen.

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/98964/position-battles-shooting-guards

While I think Allen is great this one is a big stretch. Sulaimon has the opportunity to get all the minutes he can handle at the 2 and 3 positions and maybe the occasional 1.

flyingdutchdevil
05-13-2014, 12:46 PM
Interestingly enough the ESPN article on shooting guard position battle has Sulaimon vs Allen.

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/98964/position-battles-shooting-guards

While I think Allen is great this one is a big stretch. Sulaimon has the opportunity to get all the minutes he can handle at the 2 and 3 positions and maybe the occasional 1.

Hehehehe. There is a lot to like about Brennan's post:

1) Sulaimon gets 90% of the attention in that paragraph.

2) Brennan is in love with Sulaimon. Brennan and I have a lot in common.

3) Is this really a battle? Or is this just Brennan's way of talking more about Sulaimon?

Bold prediction: Sulaimon will be our most important player next year.

jipops
05-13-2014, 12:52 PM
Not only will Tyus and Quinn be on the court together, but -- knowing K as we do -- there will also be periods when Okafor is joined by four guards -- Tyus, Quinn, Matt, and Rasheed.

I totally see this as well, especially if Amile has fouled out.

I fully expect to see a back court of Tyus and Quinn to get the bulk of the meaningful minutes, at least starting out. I would actually be surprised if that combo even changes much at all. K is going to want to have shooters out there surrounding Jahlil and there hasn't been a lot to suggest that Justise can be a threat from outside. I do think that Quinn has been considerably under-estimated for next season in this and other threads.

flyingdutchdevil
05-13-2014, 12:59 PM
I totally see this as well, especially if Amile has fouled out.

I fully expect to see a back court of Tyus and Quinn to get the bulk of the meaningful minutes, at least starting out. I would actually be surprised if that combo even changes much at all. K is going to want to have shooters out there surrounding Jahlil and there hasn't been a lot to suggest that Justise can be a threat from outside. I do think that Quinn has been considerably under-estimated for next season in this and other threads.

Matt Jones used to be able to shoot. And Semi has a decent shot (16 made 3pters in practice!). Either of those players came into Duke with better reputations as shooters than Tyus.

I really like the Cook / Sulaimon / Winslow line-up or the Tyus / Sulaimon / M. Jones line-ups. On paper, looks to have a really good balance between shooting, defense, play-making, and penetration. The first line-up is better at shooting, whilst the second line up is arguably better at play-making.

Poor Sulaimon - he's gonna be a lot of minutes this year! ;)

Tappan Zee Devil
05-13-2014, 01:58 PM
They both will play point. Its more of an and than a vs.

Exactly the point I intended to make when starting to read this thread

Bluegrassdevil1
05-13-2014, 02:04 PM
Cook is superior in two categories to Jones: pouting and getting down after a bad play. The 2013-2014 team was more successful with R.S. and Thornton running the team, but R.S. is not a point guard, and Thornton was... he graduated, that's enough.

Cook will not start. Cook will not be the first player off the bench. Cook will not play in crunch time. The 2014-2015 team will be better for it.

superdave
05-13-2014, 03:59 PM
Cook is superior in two categories to Jones: pouting and getting down after a bad play. The 2013-2014 team was more successful with R.S. and Thornton running the team, but R.S. is not a point guard, and Thornton was... he graduated, that's enough.

Cook will not start. Cook will not be the first player off the bench. Cook will not play in crunch time. The 2014-2015 team will be better for it.

I would caution you against being unnecessarily negative about a Duke player. Cook has won plenty of games for us and been a stellar part of the Duke program the last three years. Taking shots at him is not welcome here.

sagegrouse
05-13-2014, 04:03 PM
I would caution you against being unnecessarily negative about a Duke player. Cook has won plenty of games for us and been a stellar part of the Duke program the last three years. Taking shots at him is not welcome here.

Amen! I am proud to have Quinn Cook play for Duke.

flyingdutchdevil
05-13-2014, 04:11 PM
I would caution you against being unnecessarily negative about a Duke player. Cook has won plenty of games for us and been a stellar part of the Duke program the last three years. Taking shots at him is not welcome here.

Could not agree more.

Cook is a really good shooter and a very good playmaker. There was a period between November-December where he was the second best player on the floor.

If Cook can build consistency, stop gambling so much on D, and stop playing hero-ball, he can easily become All-ACC. The tools are clearly there.

Kedsy
05-13-2014, 04:24 PM
There was a period between November-December where he was the second best player on the floor.

Yeah, it's funny, there was a time just a few months ago when we were having a discussion here about whether Quinn Cook would leave early for the NBA draft, now people are posting that he won't play at all his senior year? I guess it just shows the fickle nature of some Duke fans.

-jk
05-13-2014, 04:48 PM
Please keep it civil, folks.

thanks,

-jk

Kedsy
05-13-2014, 04:51 PM
I was not "taking a shot" at Cook, I was speaking the truth.

Hmm. Let's analyze your original statement, shall we?


Cook is superior in two categories to Jones: pouting and getting down after a bad play.

Not truth. Opinion. And my guess is it's an unsubstantiated opinion, unless you've watched a whole lot more of Tyus Jones than I believe you have.


The 2013-2014 team was more successful with R.S. and Thornton running the team...

Not truth at all. Duke's record in 2013-14 with Quinn Cook starting at PG was 17-6. Duke's record with Quinn Cook not starting at PG was 9-4. It may be your opinion that we played better when Quinn wasn't in the game, but opinions aren't truth.


Cook will not start.

Not truth. Prediction with no basis other than your opinion.


Cook will not be the first player off the bench.

Not truth. Another prediction, again based on nothing.


Cook will not play in crunch time.

Ditto.


The 2014-2015 team will be better for it.

And again, prediction and opinion is not truth.


So, sorry, but you can be as insulting as you wish, but even if your unsubstantiated opinions and unfounded predictions end up being accurate, the only worth of "truth" you spoke in your entire original post was when you noted that Tyler Thornton had graduated -- although even that tidbit may not yet be true (I'm not sure when Duke's graduation ceremony is/was).

Tripping William
05-13-2014, 04:59 PM
the only worth of "truth" you spoke in your entire original post was when you noted that Tyler Thornton had graduated -- although even that tidbit may not yet be true (I'm not sure when Duke's graduation ceremony is/was).

Truth: http://instagram.com/p/n1N-6wx2da/

Kedsy
05-13-2014, 05:00 PM
Truth: http://instagram.com/p/n1N-6wx2da/

Excellent. Thank you.

MCFinARL
05-13-2014, 05:06 PM
Excellent. Thank you.

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. :D

Also, Tripping William, thanks for posting that pic--it's great.

Bluegrassdevil1
05-13-2014, 05:24 PM
"Not truth. Opinion. And my guess is it's an unsubstantiated opinion, unless you've watched a whole lot more of Tyus Jones than I believe you have."

I have seen T. Jones, in person, with my two eyes, seven times.

I have seen Q. Cook, in person, with my two eyes, sixteen times.

T. Jones, with his left leg bound to a concrete block, underwater, with both hands tied to opposing posts, is better than Q. Cook when he is fully healthy, after he has been reminded to find his smile, and someone explains to him that pounding the ball into the court does not result in any points gained.

Q. Cook, as a senior, will be similar to Paulus as senior: on the bench, with his warm-ups keeping him toasty, watching the world pass by.

jimsumner
05-13-2014, 05:34 PM
Just curious but did you watch the Mercer game? If Duke's two presumed first-round draft picks had played with the heart, toughness and tenacity demonstrated by Cook, then Duke would have won by a comfortable margin.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. The wisdom of expressing that opinion in such harsh and dismissive tones on this forum is a question I'll let the mods handle.

But if you're entitled to your opinion on Cook, I'm equally entitled to my opinion that Cook has been and will continue to be a valuable contributor to Duke basketball's successes.

Cook absolutely will be part of the rotation and absolutely will see the court in crunch time.

And I've seen him play with my own two eyes a lot more than sixteen times.

My opinion of course. Why don't we check back in eight or nine months and see if we have Paulus redux?

MartyClark
05-13-2014, 05:52 PM
Just curious but did you watch the Mercer game? If Duke's two presumed first-round draft picks had played with the heart, toughness and tenacity demonstrated by Cook, then Duke would have won by a comfortable margin.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. The wisdom of expressing that opinion in such harsh and dismissive tones on this forum is a question I'll let the mods handle.

But if you're entitled to your opinion on Cook, I'm equally entitled to my opinion that Cook has been and will continue to be a valuable contributor to Duke basketball's successes.

Cook absolutely will be part of the rotation and absolutely will see the court in crunch time.

And I've seen him play with my own two eyes a lot more than sixteen times.

My opinion of course. Why don't we check back in eight or nine months and see if we have Paulus redux?

I have enough conflict in my own real life, that I'm all in favor of us agreeing in our vicarious, Duke basketball lives.

To slightly paraphrase an earlier post, I'm looking at this at "Cook plus Jones". It's a good challenge for both guys, hopefully they can work together with good result.

Newton_14
05-13-2014, 05:53 PM
Just curious but did you watch the Mercer game? If Duke's two presumed first-round draft picks had played with the heart, toughness and tenacity demonstrated by Cook, then Duke would have won by a comfortable margin.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. The wisdom of expressing that opinion in such harsh and dismissive tones on this forum is a question I'll let the mods handle.

But if you're entitled to your opinion on Cook, I'm equally entitled to my opinion that Cook has been and will continue to be a valuable contributor to Duke basketball's successes.

Cook absolutely will be part of the rotation and absolutely will see the court in crunch time.

And I've seen him play with my own two eyes a lot more than sixteen times.

My opinion of course. Why don't we check back in eight or nine months and see if we have Paulus redux?
As have I Jim, though your seat is quite a bit closer to the court than is mine. :)

Cook can be as good as he aspires to be. The talent is there. I am on record as saying Mr Jones will be the starting PG from Day 1 and I still believe that until K shows me otherwise. That said, Mr Cook is going to play and play a lot. Will likely start, especially early on, and even if not, will still get 25+ mpg. He is not Paulus. Quinn was having a very good Jr Season until he hurt both ankles right around the Pitt game. From there on, his play ranged anywhere from really bad (Wake road game) to really good (Mercer game).

The guy can play. It's all mental with him. I will still put all my marbles on your side of this debate though.

uh_no
05-13-2014, 05:57 PM
If Cook can build consistency, stop gambling so much on D, and stop playing hero-ball, he can easily become All-ACC. The tools are clearly there.

What concerns me is that the tools have been there, and the same problems have been there for 3 years now. Yes there are players who explode their senior year (Zoubek) but I think people often make the mistake of assuming everyone will because of a small number of confirming examples.

Can quinn do it? Absolutely. But as a rising senior who seems to be stagnant, I'm in full on skeptic mode. I hope he proves me wrong, and has a killer year, working all summer on the things he needs to, closing those flaws in his game. I find it hard to put a lot of hope in an individual proving to be an exception to the norm, though.

And in defense of stagnant:

last year, he won MVP in maui, had some really good games, some really bad games, gambled on D, played hero ball, people said he had all the tools to be a great player
this year, he was excellent in a stretch in the fall, had some really good games, some really bad games, gambled on D, played hero ball, people are saying he has all the tools to be a great player

I just seem to think we know what we're going to get from quinn...he's one of the most known entities on this team.

I'll be honest, I love the energy and passion he has, I'm just not buying a lot of Quinn stock heading into the year....if the market crushes me, so be it. I'll root for him as hard as I would anyone else.

luvdahops
05-13-2014, 06:41 PM
What concerns me is that the tools have been there, and the same problems have been there for 3 years now. Yes there are players who explode their senior year (Zoubek) but I think people often make the mistake of assuming everyone will because of a small number of confirming examples.

Can quinn do it? Absolutely. But as a rising senior who seems to be stagnant, I'm in full on skeptic mode. I hope he proves me wrong, and has a killer year, working all summer on the things he needs to, closing those flaws in his game. I find it hard to put a lot of hope in an individual proving to be an exception to the norm, though.

And in defense of stagnant:

last year, he won MVP in maui, had some really good games, some really bad games, gambled on D, played hero ball, people said he had all the tools to be a great player
this year, he was excellent in a stretch in the fall, had some really good games, some really bad games, gambled on D, played hero ball, people are saying he has all the tools to be a great player

I just seem to think we know what we're going to get from quinn...he's one of the most known entities on this team.

I'll be honest, I love the energy and passion he has, I'm just not buying a lot of Quinn stock heading into the year....if the market crushes me, so be it. I'll root for him as hard as I would anyone else.

I think K actually has a pretty good track record of coaxing big senior years out of players who had previously been viewed as erratic/less than fully reliable. Going back to guys like Alaa, Tony Lang, Chris Collins, Ro McLeod, etc. Some might argue that Mason belongs in this group, too. In that light, Paulus was the exception, not Zoubek.

duke09hms
05-13-2014, 07:13 PM
I think K actually has a pretty good track record of coaxing big senior years out of players who had previously been viewed as erratic/less than fully reliable. Going back to guys like Alaa, Tony Lang, Chris Collins, Ro McLeod, etc. Some might argue that Mason belongs in this group, too. In that light, Paulus was the exception, not Zoubek.

That sounds like confirmation bias. What about all the other seniors through the years that stayed the same or demonstrated only incremental improvement. More recently, what about Josh and Tyler. It seems like seniors that are a revelation and make big jumps in contributions are the minority.

ncexnyc
05-13-2014, 07:16 PM
A few days ago someone wrote something about all of our threads requiring snarky comments. I see some of you have taken that seriously instead of as a joke.

I’m already on record that Tyrus will be the starting PG by the start of ACC play if not sooner. Yes, this is based on just the three All-Star games and I know many claim you can’t base a kids future on these games, but I saw enough to know that young Mr. Jones knows how to feed the post and get the other players involved even under the show time mentality of those glorified pick-up games.

Yes, there are questions about his defense, however Quinn has issues in that area as well. I guess from my point of view, Tyrus appears to be better suited to give us a pass first PG and that is what we’ll need if we are indeed going to make Jahlil the focus of our offense.

Now let me voice my opinion on Quinn. I give him a pass for his freshman season, as he wasn’t 100% that year due to the knee injury, which he was recovering from. Quinn’s sophomore season was very interesting. He played some really awesome basketball during that stretch of games around the “Battle for Atlantis” tournament. Unfortunately, by the end of the season his game started to fizzle out and he had a rather poor NCAA tournament. This past season we saw more of the same. Some stellar games combined with some very disappointing games.

Being under the microscope at a big time program like Duke isn’t an easy thing to live with. Every aspect of your game gets nitpicked to death and while mistakes are made you’d better be able to pick yourself off the floor and move on to the next play. Quinn has shown he has the skill set necessary to be an excellent PG at Duke, I’m just not sure he has the mental make-up to bring it game after game.

This leads us to the discussion of whether or not the two players can coexist on the floor at the same time. Having two solid ball handlers on the court would be very interesting from the standpoint of the offense, however I’m not sure this would be optimal from a defensive standpoint. A lot of this will be determined on how well Matt, Rasheed, and Justise play.

Duvall
05-13-2014, 07:24 PM
I have seen T. Jones, in person, with my two eyes, seven times.

I have seen Q. Cook, in person, with my two eyes, sixteen times.

Looks like we have us an expert here. Tell me though - how many of those games by Jones were against college competition?

lotusland
05-13-2014, 07:37 PM
I'll take Quinn to have a banner year. He's improved each year inspite of continued inconsistency. I'm looking forward to watching Tyus improve over hopefully several yrs at Duke. I haven't heard statements from K indicating that there is a plan in place for Tyus to be a key player like we heard with Kyrie, AR, Jabari and Jalil. It's unfortunate for Tyus that he'll have to actually play and surrender his recruit halo once the season starts.

uh_no
05-13-2014, 07:58 PM
I think K actually has a pretty good track record of coaxing big senior years out of players who had previously been viewed as erratic/less than fully reliable. Going back to guys like Alaa, Tony Lang, Chris Collins, Ro McLeod, etc. Some might argue that Mason belongs in this group, too. In that light, Paulus was the exception, not Zoubek.

there's a huge perception bias here....you're far more likely to more prominently remember the ones who became stars their senior year.

That said, I don't think this is a resolvable argument....we could go back and forth trying to list players....then we get into arguments about what justifies having improved senior year, and what constitutes having been inconsistent/mediocre/stagnant the previous years, and whether a player had "the tools" to make the leap.

So i think he probably won't make a leap, you do. that's fine.

we'll see....go quinn, go duke.

uh_no
05-13-2014, 08:02 PM
I'll take Quinn to have a banner year. He's improved each year inspite of continued inconsistency. I'm looking forward to watching Tyus improve over hopefully several yrs at Duke. I haven't heard statements from K indicating that there is a plan in place for Tyus to be a key player like we heard with Kyrie, AR, Jabari and Jalil. It's unfortunate for Tyus that he'll have to actually play and surrender his recruit halo once the season starts.

two questions:

1) what is the criteria you're using to conclude that he's improved each year...I'm not trying to deny it, just interested in why you think so
2) perhaps K hasn't made statements after karma bit him on kyrie :)

jimsumner
05-13-2014, 08:22 PM
there's a huge perception bias here....you're far more likely to more prominently remember the ones who became stars their senior year.

That said, I don't think this is a resolvable argument....we could go back and forth trying to list players....then we get into arguments about what justifies having improved senior year, and what constitutes having been inconsistent/mediocre/stagnant the previous years, and whether a player had "the tools" to make the leap.

So i think he probably won't make a leap, you do. that's fine.

we'll see....go quinn, go duke.

There aren't that many cases of guys who had significant regressions as seniors. At least not in the Paulus sense. In fact, I can't think of any other close analogs to Paulus, not since K got his own guys in the program. Greg Newton was Duke's best player for the first third of his senior season before falling apart. But he still lead Duke in rebounding that season. Domzalski peaked as a freshman, then developed knee problems. Ricky Price peaked as a sophomore and was academically ineligible the first semester of his senior season and never got back in K's good graces. Bilas had a statistical drop off as a senior but he had knee surgery. John Smith peaked as a soph but remained a rotation player as a junior and senior.

But a Paulus-level disappearance? From third-team All-ACC to end-of-bench reserve. He's pretty much an anomaly. And nothing suggests that Cook is poised to duplicate that dubious distinction.

A lot more guys than that had their best seasons as seniors and that's not a perception bias. I can give a long list but too many internet trees would have to die. :)

lotusland
05-13-2014, 08:26 PM
two questions:

1) what is the criteria you're using to conclude that he's improved each year...I'm not trying to deny it, just interested in why you think so
2) perhaps K hasn't made statements after karma bit him on kyrie :)

Improvement based on my perception from watching him. As a freshman Quinn c
Was hobbled and could not stay in front of anyone so the improvement his sophomore year was clear. To my eyes when playing his best last year exceeded his best the year before. He was inconsistent both years but the highs were higher last year imo.

He has made statements about the offense going through Jahil next year so I'm not sure the karma theory works. I would just add that Bobby Hurley had major struggles as a freshman and may not have started with a senior QC on that team so it's reasonable to expect Tyus to struggle some too. He doesn't need to carry this team so I don't expect him to. He'll get opportunities to contribute but he'll struggle some too.

uh_no
05-13-2014, 08:28 PM
There aren't that many cases of guys who had significant regressions as seniors. At least not in the Paulus sense. In fact, I can't think of any other close analogs to Paulus, not since K got his own guys in the program. Greg Newton was Duke's best player for the first third of his senior season before falling apart. But he still lead Duke in rebounding that season. Domzalski peaked as a freshman, then developed knee problems. Ricky Price peaked as a sophomore and was academically ineligible the first semester of his senior season and never got back in K's good graces. Bilas had a statistical drop off as a senior but he had knee surgery. John Smith peaked as a soph but remained a rotation player as a junior and senior.

But a Paulus-level disappearance? From third-team All-ACC to end-of-bench reserve. He's pretty much an anomaly. And nothing suggests that Cook is poised to duplicate that dubious distinction.

A lot more guys than that had their best seasons as seniors and that's not a perception bias. I can give a long list but too many internet trees would have to die. :)

There's a large bit of middle ground between a mason like revelation, and a paulus like regression, I think.

jimsumner
05-13-2014, 09:06 PM
There's a large bit of middle ground between a mason like revelation, and a paulus like regression, I think.

Sure. But I haven't predicted a Mason-live revelation. Please don't put words in my mouth. My comments regarding Cook are in response to the poster who insisted that Cook would be on the bench, "with his warm-ups keeping him toasty, watching the world pass by."

And statistically, Duke has had more senior revelations than senior collapses. Under K's tenure, Duke has had (at least) 13 players (Vince Taylor, Tommy Amaker, Phil Henderson, Alaa Abdelnaby, Tony Lang, Chris Collins, Roshown McLeod, Nate James, Dahntay Jones, Daniel Ewing, DeMarcus Nelson, Jon Scheyer and Seth Curry) make All-ACC as seniors without ever previously having made All-ACC. And that doesn't include Mason or Chris Carrawell (third-team as a junior, ACC POY as a senior), Chris Duhon (third-team as a junior, runner-up for ACC POY as a senior), Bobby Hurley (second-team as a junior, runner-up for ACC POY as a senior) or Nolan Smith (second-team as a junior, ACC POY as a senior).

None of this has any predictive powers for Cook. But it does suggest a trend.

As I said earlier, I'm not predicting a big jump for Cook as a senior. But I expect him to start and/or be a rotation player off the bench. I don't think 11-14 ppg and four or so assists is unrealistic for Cook.

Furniture
05-13-2014, 11:38 PM
Sometimes people go a little overboard on here. It's only Bluegrass's opinion and that's all. Does it really have to be taken that seriously and border on internet bullying? Lighten up gents.
Anyway, I thought last year way TOO many people were big on Quinn's pouting instead of focusing on his play. The pouting comments were a distraction to me and irrelevant. Just my opinion and for that matter Sheed himself pulled a face after a bad play many a time and hardly anyone commented.
In regards Quinn's apparent mid year slump there never was a confirmation of an injury or was there. I'd like to think it was a injury.

MCFinARL
05-14-2014, 08:22 AM
Sometimes people go a little overboard on here. It's only Bluegrass's opinion and that's all. Does it really have to be taken that seriously and border on internet bullying? Lighten up gents.
Anyway, I thought last year way TOO many people were big on Quinn's pouting instead of focusing on his play. The pouting comments were a distraction to me and irrelevant. Just my opinion and for that matter Sheed himself pulled a face after a bad play many a time and hardly anyone commented.
In regards Quinn's apparent mid year slump there never was a confirmation of an injury or was there. I'd like to think it was a injury.

Well, it depends on what you mean by "confirmation." He definitely hurt his ankle (maybe both ankles) in a game--but how long that continued to affect him was never discussed by him or the team as far as I know.

Saratoga2
05-14-2014, 10:40 AM
I think Quinn was our toughest player in the tournament game this year. He has limitations, but I think he will get a lot of PT this coming season.

As far as seniors regressing, I thought that while Hairston didn't regress, the rule changes really made his game less valuable, so he sat the bench. In the past, I thought DeMarcus Nelson had just a so-so senior season. He was a strong kid but tended to drive into traffic and lose control or get stuffed. I didn't see much improvement with him.

Seniors aren't in the physical growth mode and are unlikely to get faster or more agile. Perhaps all one can expect is that the experience gained from years of competition can be used to get oneself open or make the clever pass. Curry was an excellent shooter but was small and not a super athlete, but he certainly was smart and used his experience to get open and score. Mason had a lot going for him, but he still seemed uncomfortable in his game around the basket (other than the stuff) and his mid ranged game. It seems like a mixed bag as to whether a guy will improve. Some like Miles and JJ even, really get to a new level in the pros.

I enjoy watching these kids mature over their careers and wish that more of the best ones would stay longer. The lure of the big money is hard to pass up and I guess I woud be swayed by millions being paid for my services.

CDu
05-14-2014, 10:43 AM
I actually think moving Cook to SG to play alongside T. Jones at PG would be a good thing. Cook's biggest weakness on defense is his lack of lateral quickness. Well, what better way to hide that weakness than to play him at SG, where his opponents are generally not quite as good with the ball and not quite as quick as PG? College SG typically range from 6'1" to 6'4" and usually aren't going to post anyone up. As such, Cook being on the shorter side for the SG position isn't likely to be much of a detriment for him defensively.

And on offense, he'd have less responsibility to run the offense, more freedom to hunt out his own shot, and he'd get lots of opportunities for open looks with a terrific PG like Jones. And he'd be guarded by guys slightly less quick than PG and perhaps slightly less comfortable defending a guy with PG skills.

People have repeatedly mentioned the size issue as a concern, but I frankly just don't see that as a problem. Plenty of teams play two small guards and do quite well with that approach. Size is more necessary in the post and along the baseline than it is up top. What you really want from your guards is the ability to create shots for themselves and others, and to not get burned off the dribble. Cook can certainly do the first of those things, and moving him to a lower-leverage position takes some of the pressure off his weakness in the latter of them.

The question in my mind really is whether or not T. Jones can defend the PG position well enough, not whether or not Cook can defend the SG position.

_Gary
05-14-2014, 02:06 PM
I actually think moving Cook to SG to play alongside T. Jones at PG would be a good thing. Cook's biggest weakness on defense is his lack of lateral quickness. Well, what better way to hide that weakness than to play him at SG, where his opponents are generally not quite as good with the ball and not quite as quick as PG? College SG typically range from 6'1" to 6'4" and usually aren't going to post anyone up. As such, Cook being on the shorter side for the SG position isn't likely to be much of a detriment for him defensively.

And on offense, he'd have less responsibility to run the offense, more freedom to hunt out his own shot, and he'd get lots of opportunities for open looks with a terrific PG like Jones. And he'd be guarded by guys slightly less quick than PG and perhaps slightly less comfortable defending a guy with PG skills.

People have repeatedly mentioned the size issue as a concern, but I frankly just don't see that as a problem. Plenty of teams play two small guards and do quite well with that approach. Size is more necessary in the post and along the baseline than it is up top. What you really want from your guards is the ability to create shots for themselves and others, and to not get burned off the dribble. Cook can certainly do the first of those things, and moving him to a lower-leverage position takes some of the pressure off his weakness in the latter of them.

The question in my mind really is whether or not T. Jones can defend the PG position well enough, not whether or not Cook can defend the SG position.


I think there's a very good chance we will see both starting, which will give us a small backcourt, but as you mentioned that's not a huge problem. The problem will be when we play those two, plus add Rasheed to the mix and are playing 3 guards at the same time, none of which are "tall" or "big" for their position. That will put us behind the 8-ball, imho, in terms of size. We might have a quickness advantage, but we'll be at a distinct disadvantage in terms of length and height. If we were doing this in a bubble and only looking at the possibility of playing two guards that are 6'1 or under, yet had a SF who was something like 6'7 or better, then I think we'd be okay. But I can't see Rasheed not starting, so if Cook and Jones also both start I think we'll be in some trouble on the size front.

tommy
05-14-2014, 02:37 PM
I think there's a very good chance we will see both starting, which will give us a small backcourt, but as you mentioned that's not a huge problem. The problem will be when we play those two, plus add Rasheed to the mix and are playing 3 guards at the same time, none of which are "tall" or "big" for their position. That will put us behind the 8-ball, imho, in terms of size. We might have a quickness advantage, but we'll be at a distinct disadvantage in terms of length and height. If we were doing this in a bubble and only looking at the possibility of playing two guards that are 6'1 or under, yet had a SF who was something like 6'7 or better, then I think we'd be okay. But I can't see Rasheed not starting, so if Cook and Jones also both start I think we'll be in some trouble on the size front.

Another way to look at it, though, is to look at the quality of the defender, not just his size. Like this past year, when we went, as we often did, Cook (or Thornton)-Sulaimon-Hood-Parker-Jefferson, we had normal-to-very good size/length at the 2, 3, and 4 positions. In particular, everyone was so excited pre-season about Hood's length at the 3 and his ability to be disruptive on the perimeter due to his height and length. Problem was, in some important respects he was a subpar defender, as was Jabari, who had plenty of size at the 4. Of course, all other things being equal you'd rather have size than not have it. But size/length themselves are not a cure-all if the players are not good defenders in the first place.

CDu
05-14-2014, 05:08 PM
I think there's a very good chance we will see both starting, which will give us a small backcourt, but as you mentioned that's not a huge problem. The problem will be when we play those two, plus add Rasheed to the mix and are playing 3 guards at the same time, none of which are "tall" or "big" for their position. That will put us behind the 8-ball, imho, in terms of size. We might have a quickness advantage, but we'll be at a distinct disadvantage in terms of length and height. If we were doing this in a bubble and only looking at the possibility of playing two guards that are 6'1 or under, yet had a SF who was something like 6'7 or better, then I think we'd be okay. But I can't see Rasheed not starting, so if Cook and Jones also both start I think we'll be in some trouble on the size front.

And I don't think a starting lineup of Cook, Jones, and Sulaimon would be a problem either. I think this for two reasons:

1. Not many teams have a SF that can punish a slightly-undersized guard (many teams play essentially 3 guards anyway).
2. That trio would only be on the floor together for, at most, 10-15 mpg. So for at least 25-30 mpg, we'd be going with a bigger guy at SF (Matt Jones, Ojeleye, or Winslow).

"Up front" in college basketball has grown to mean PF and C. The SF position in college is, more often than not, a third guard. Sometimes those "SF" are a bit bigger, but often they are not. And very rarely do you see a SF who looks to take advantage of a size advantage.

UrinalCake
05-15-2014, 11:32 AM
2. That trio [Jones/Cook/Sulaimon] would only be on the floor together for, at most, 10-15 mpg. So for at least 25-30 mpg, we'd be going with a bigger guy at SF (Matt Jones, Ojeleye, or Winslow).

My theory is that any time Okafor comes off the floor, we're going to have to play a shooter at the 3 (Rasheed or maybe M. jones) . Our front court any two of Plumlee/Amile/Semi won't be giving us any offense, so we'll need to play three guards that can score. Maybe we'll be surprised and Winslow's offense will be way ahead of where we think it will be, but as of now I think he'll only play when Okafor is in.

Also, is M Jones that much bigger than Rasheed? I recall them being listed at 6'5 and 6'4 respectively.

Saratoga2
05-15-2014, 11:54 AM
My theory is that any time Okafor comes off the floor, we're going to have to play a shooter at the 3 (Rasheed or maybe M. jones) . Our front court any two of Plumlee/Amile/Semi won't be giving us any offense, so we'll need to play three guards that can score. Maybe we'll be surprised and Winslow's offense will be way ahead of where we think it will be, but as of now I think he'll only play when Okafor is in.

Also, is M Jones that much bigger than Rasheed? I recall them being listed at 6'5 and 6'4 respectively.

I think Rssheed is more like 6'3" while M. Jones is more like 6'4". Also, I think you may be under rating Semi on offense. I think he has a mid range and 3 point range and has the strength and hops to play near the basket. With him it might be more about encouragement than abillity. I do think his handle needs to improve.

tommy
05-15-2014, 12:14 PM
My theory is that any time Okafor comes off the floor, we're going to have to play a shooter at the 3 (Rasheed or maybe M. jones) . Our front court any two of Plumlee/Amile/Semi won't be giving us any offense, so we'll need to play three guards that can score. Maybe we'll be surprised and Winslow's offense will be way ahead of where we think it will be, but as of now I think he'll only play when Okafor is in.

Also, is M Jones that much bigger than Rasheed? I recall them being listed at 6'5 and 6'4 respectively.

I don't know where "we" think Winslow's offense will be, but I think his offensive game is being really underestimated on these boards. He's not some weird combination of, I don't know, (don't kill me, just throwing out names real quick) Tyler Thornton and Dennis Rodman, who plays D and rebounds but is basically a zero on the offensive end of the floor. The kid has offensive skills too. He can drive to the hole, he can score in traffic, he's very good in transition, he can hit the midrange jumpshot. He's not Kevin Durant either in terms of pure scoring ability either, so don't get me wrong. But any opponent that assumes that they basically don't have to worry about Winslow hurting them offensively, does so at its peril.

Henderson
05-15-2014, 12:22 PM
I don't know where "we" think Winslow's offense will be, but I think his offensive game is being really underestimated on these boards. He's not some weird combination of, I don't know, (don't kill me, just throwing out names real quick) Tyler Thornton and Dennis Rodman, who plays D and rebounds but is basically a zero on the offensive end of the floor. The kid has offensive skills too. He can drive to the hole, he can score in traffic, he's very good in transition, he can hit the midrange jumpshot. He's not Kevin Durant either in terms of pure scoring ability either, so don't get me wrong. But any opponent that assumes that they basically don't have to worry about Winslow hurting them offensively, does so at its peril.

I haven't been reading a lot of underestimation of Justise here, but maybe some lack of attention. It's good to point out that he was the #12 (Rivals, Scout) or #15 (ESPN) player in the entire class, which puts him right around Justin Jackson range.

CDu
05-15-2014, 01:40 PM
My theory is that any time Okafor comes off the floor, we're going to have to play a shooter at the 3 (Rasheed or maybe M. jones) . Our front court any two of Plumlee/Amile/Semi won't be giving us any offense, so we'll need to play three guards that can score. Maybe we'll be surprised and Winslow's offense will be way ahead of where we think it will be, but as of now I think he'll only play when Okafor is in.

Also, is M Jones that much bigger than Rasheed? I recall them being listed at 6'5 and 6'4 respectively.

I would actually say the opposite. I think that it would be more important to have better perimeter shooters on the floor when Okafor is IN the game (to space the floor better) rather than when he is out of the game. When he's out, we'll need more guys capable of creating offense for themselves (in whatever way works best for them).

That being said, I haven't seen a ton of Winslow, but from what I've read I am not too concerned about his usefulness with or without Okafor on the floor.

flyingdutchdevil
05-15-2014, 02:18 PM
1) Rasheed is pretty tall. He's definitely at least 6'3", more like 6'4". That's decent size for a 3. Freshman Sulaimon held his own pretty well against 3s, so I guess that he'll be okay.

2) M. Jones is a big dude, both in height and bulk. He's considerably "meatier" than Sulaimon and probably an inch taller, too. NOTE: "Meatier" can mean muscle, can mean muscle/fat. Not sure what M. Jones's body type is like.

3) I know we'll be seeing some T Jones and Cook out on the floor, but I just don't see how it works. Both aren't good defenders right now and I have a feeling that Coach K is going to prioritize D over O next year.

4) If AJ gains a mid-range and is able to be a decent threat on O, I think that Okafor doesn't need to be surrounded by 3pt shooters. Given that T Jones and Winslow don't really have 3pt reputations, they may see more time. Now, if AJ doesn't gain any range, I think we'll be seeing a lot of Sulaimon and Cook, potentially at the expense of Winslow.

5) Next year seems to be the year of the unknowns:
a) How will AJ improve?
b) How good is Winslow's D?
c) How good is Winslow's O?
d) Will Cook be more consistent?
e) Can T Jones play defense?
f) Will M Jones find his shot?
g) Will Semi be the back-up at the 4 that we need?

tommy
05-15-2014, 02:26 PM
1) Rasheed is pretty tall. He's definitely at least 6'3", more like 6'4". That's decent size for a 3. Freshman Sulaimon held his own pretty well against 3s, so I guess that he'll be okay.

2) M. Jones is a big dude, both in height and bulk. He's considerably "meatier" than Sulaimon and probably an inch taller, too. NOTE: "Meatier" can mean muscle, can mean muscle/fat. Not sure what M. Jones's body type is like.

3) I know we'll be seeing some T Jones and Cook out on the floor, but I just don't see how it works. Both aren't good defenders right now and I have a feeling that Coach K is going to prioritize D over O next year.

4) If AJ gains a mid-range and is able to be a decent threat on O, I think that Okafor doesn't need to be surrounded by 3pt shooters. Given that T Jones and Winslow don't really have 3pt reputations, they may see more time. Now, if AJ doesn't gain any range, I think we'll be seeing a lot of Sulaimon and Cook, potentially at the expense of Winslow.

5) Next year seems to be the year of the unknowns:
a) How will AJ improve?
b) How good is Winslow's D?
c) How good is Winslow's O?
d) Will Cook be more consistent?
e) Can T Jones play defense?
f) Will M Jones find his shot?
g) Will Semi be the back-up at the 4 that we need?

Agree that those will be some of the important questions coming into the year, but there are many others as well. Phase Zero anyone?? :D

One thing though: Tyus Jones can absolutely knock down college-distance 3-point shots. In fact, because he's such a heady player whose shot selection is really good, it wouldn't surprise me if he turns out to be our leader next year in 3-point shooting percentage.

MCFinARL
05-15-2014, 05:54 PM
I don't know where "we" think Winslow's offense will be, but I think his offensive game is being really underestimated on these boards. He's not some weird combination of, I don't know, (don't kill me, just throwing out names real quick) Tyler Thornton and Dennis Rodman, who plays D and rebounds but is basically a zero on the offensive end of the floor. The kid has offensive skills too. He can drive to the hole, he can score in traffic, he's very good in transition, he can hit the midrange jumpshot. He's not Kevin Durant either in terms of pure scoring ability either, so don't get me wrong. But any opponent that assumes that they basically don't have to worry about Winslow hurting them offensively, does so at its peril.

The mental image of a combination of Tyler Thornton and Dennis Rodman made me laugh very hard. Wonder how Tyler would look in a wedding dress?

Kedsy
05-15-2014, 10:00 PM
Also, is M Jones that much bigger than Rasheed? I recall them being listed at 6'5 and 6'4 respectively.

According to GoDuke.com, Matt is 6'4, 200 and Rasheed is 6'4, 190.

Newton_14
05-15-2014, 10:26 PM
1) Rasheed is pretty tall. He's definitely at least 6'3", more like 6'4". That's decent size for a 3. Freshman Sulaimon held his own pretty well against 3s, so I guess that he'll be okay.

2) M. Jones is a big dude, both in height and bulk. He's considerably "meatier" than Sulaimon and probably an inch taller, too. NOTE: "Meatier" can mean muscle, can mean muscle/fat. Not sure what M. Jones's body type is like.

3) I know we'll be seeing some T Jones and Cook out on the floor, but I just don't see how it works. Both aren't good defenders right now and I have a feeling that Coach K is going to prioritize D over O next year.

4) If AJ gains a mid-range and is able to be a decent threat on O, I think that Okafor doesn't need to be surrounded by 3pt shooters. Given that T Jones and Winslow don't really have 3pt reputations, they may see more time. Now, if AJ doesn't gain any range, I think we'll be seeing a lot of Sulaimon and Cook, potentially at the expense of Winslow.

5) Next year seems to be the year of the unknowns:
a) How will AJ improve?
b) How good is Winslow's D?
c) How good is Winslow's O?
d) Will Cook be more consistent?
e) Can T Jones play defense?
f) Will M Jones find his shot?
g) Will Semi be the back-up at the 4 that we need?

1) Rasheed is pretty tall. He's definitely at least 6'3", more like 6'4". That's decent size for a 3. Freshman Sulaimon held his own pretty well against 3s, so I guess that he'll be okay.
MN> Yes, I have stood right beside him, and Rasheed is every bit of 6/3-6/4, and lengthy. He is not small. We will not be at much of a disadvantage if at all with him at the 3 spot, even with Quinn and Tyus on the floor with him.
2) M. Jones is a big dude, both in height and bulk. He's considerably "meatier" than Sulaimon and probably an inch taller, too. NOTE: "Meatier" can mean muscle, can mean muscle/fat. Not sure what M. Jones's body type is like.
MN> True again. He is a bigger boned kid than is Rasheed, also with good length and to be honest is probably close to Rasheed in terms of quickness. We can play him at the 3 with Cook and Tyus on the floor with no trouble at all in my opinion. I have no worries with Matt on defense, but I do hope he can improve a lot on Offense, both with his 3 point shot, and scoring in general.
3) I know we'll be seeing some T Jones and Cook out on the floor, but I just don't see how it works. Both aren't good defenders right now and I have a feeling that Coach K is going to prioritize D over O next year.
MN> Like others have stated, we will almost certainly see both of them on the floor for at least 10-15 mpg, and while I certainly agree that Cook has not been a consistent defender, he has shown flashes at times of being able to ball hawk. Yes he gets beat off the dribble a lot, but he has also been disruptive at times, drawing multiple 5 Second Calls, sometimes more than 1 in the same game. A lot of defense is desire. Seems trite but it's true. With Tyus, I would strongly encourage everyone to wait and see. You never know how good a kid is going to defend on the college level until they get on the floor in College games. The jury will be out on Tyus the individual Duke defender, and Tyus the team defender in Duke's Defensive Scheme, until we see him play a handful of college games in a Duke uniform. Maybe like Tyler Thornton, the kid walks in the door fully understanding and grasping K's scheme's, and fully able to execute them properly possession after possession. Also, one advantage those guys will have next season that we did not have this season, is size behind them in the middle 100% of the time. That actually does make a difference. Either Jahlil or MP3 will be on the floor 99% of the time. As a guard, you can approach your assignment differently if you know there is strong help behind you.
4) If AJ gains a mid-range and is able to be a decent threat on O, I think that Okafor doesn't need to be surrounded by 3pt shooters. Given that T Jones and Winslow don't really have 3pt reputations, they may see more time. Now, if AJ doesn't gain any range, I think we'll be seeing a lot of Sulaimon and Cook, potentially at the expense of Winslow.
MN- More on AJ below, but I think we will see a lot of Sulaimon and Cook regardless, but there will be many battles for PT at the 1-4 positions throughout the season. K has no fear of going small, and he also is not scared to sit a Junior or Senior in favor of a Freshman or Soph that is outplaying the upperclassmen on the court. So any scenario could play out, I just happen to believe that Cook has enough talent and desire not to become a little used scrub (but again to reiterate, I fully expecft Tyus Jones to be the starting PG from Day 1 and not lose the job)
5) Next year seems to be the year of the unknowns:
a) How will AJ improve? MN-While I don't believe Amile is ever going to be a good/great shooter, I fully believe he is going to be a good to great scorer before all is said an done. I said many times last season our offense was MUCH better in the games where Amile was actively hunting buckets. It opened up a lot of things within the offense. The kid can score and can do it in a variety of ways. He will be a Junior. One year older, wiser, stronger, maybe adds 5 pounds or so, and we often forget a key element. He previously was a frosh and soph going against older, bigger, stronger, veteran players, or in some cases stud freshman, yet he had moderate success scoring the ball against those guys as a frosh, and was better at it as a Soph. Now the opponents will either be guys he has played against his entire career who have little to no advantage over him, or stud freshman who are now facing the Junior version Amile, or lastly, non-stud freshman and Soph's who are far less experienced than Amile. To me, that matters and it matters a lot. If given the opportunity, and if he actively hunts buckets, I think Amile can easily score 10.0 to say 12.0 ppg, maybe even a little bit more. In those matchups Amile will now be the vet with the advantage and I believe he can and will take full advantage of that. He should be a great complement to Jahlil in the paint.
b) How good is Winslow's D?
MN- Same answer as above with Tyus. We will know when we see it. We do know that physically, he seemingly has all the tools required to be a good college defender. Disclaimer: We have had kids, including this past season, that seemingly had all the tools in the defensive tool bag, but for whatever reason, it did not translate. I hope Winslow falls in the other category.
c) How good is Winslow's O?
MN- Like Tommy, I fall on the side of optimism here. I think Winslow can be a very effective scorer, with or without being a lights out 3 point shooter. That said, I really don't think we will need a lot of points from Winslow this season. We should get plenty of scoring from others. If Winslow can be a solid scorer it will be a great bonus actually.
d) Will Cook be more consistent?
MN- At one point this past season I almost gave up on Quinn. I know some here have given up on him. However, he played his butt off in that last game, and the "Good Quinn" is really good, like 1st Team All-ACC type good. It is do or die for him, and if his heart is as big as I think it is, he will play good, consistent ball for the most part in his Senior Campaign. Lastly, I always put a lot of stock in the insights Jim Sumner shares with us, and Jim is on record in this thread of believing Cook will play a lot and play well. It could go the other way I suppose, but until proven otherwise I am casting my vote in the same hat as Mr Jim, thank you.
e) Can T Jones play defense?
MN-Yes
f) Will M Jones find his shot?
MN-TBD. His form is not great, he has a hitch, and doesn't always get good rotation, but players with similar traits have been great shooters in the past. You always prefer the great shooting form of players like Mark Price, JJ Redick, Andre Dawkins, etc, but there is more than one way to knock down 3 pointers consistently. MJones did have the rep of a great shooter, especially in the summer after his Junior Season on the AAU circuit, but for whatever reason, it did not translate this past season.
g) Will Semi be the back-up at the 4 that we need?
MN- Also TBD, but fascinating player and great scenaro for debate. I am still undecided, though I lean slightly to the side of "Semi develops into really solid College Player". If he figures it out this season, then wow, can he help this team in multiple ways on both sides of the ball. His quickness, leaping ability, size, strength, are all off the charts good. If he figures out how to use all of those skills effectively, the sky is the limit in terms of what he is capable of. I really, really hope he is patient, and develops year over year as that will be so much fun to watch, even not counting the benefits to the team. He has somewhat of a slow release on his 3 point shot, but he showed the ability to knock that shot down in the limited opportunities he got this past season. And to tie it back into the thread title, if you have Semi, Amile, Jahlil, on the floor together, then putting Tyus and Quinn out there together should work just fine. Same for a line up with Rasheed, Semi, Jahlil, at the 3,4,5, with Tyus & Quinn.

So with all that, the potential of having success with both Quinn and Tyus on the floor at the same time, is certainly there with several different line up combinations. Pairing them together in the backcourt does not have to automatically mean a weak defensive team. Oddly enough, some of our bigger line ups this past season were not great defensively. I would not assume that the defense this year would be bad with those two guys in the lineup. Could be of course. Something to watch for. When is the first exhibition? Let's go already!

Kedsy
05-15-2014, 11:46 PM
And to tie it back into the thread title, if you have Semi, Amile, Jahlil, on the floor together, then putting Tyus and Quinn out there together should work just fine. Same for a line up with Rasheed, Semi, Jahlil, at the 3,4,5, with Tyus & Quinn.

Personally, I doubt we'll see much of Semi at SF in 2014-15 (hence, little or no Semi/Amile/Jahlil). Semi's road to playing time this coming season would seem to hinge on him winning time as backup PF. I still believe that we won't see much if any Jahlil and Marshall together, which means when Amile is off the court someone has to play PF. If I'm right about Jahlil/Marshall, that means when Amile is resting it's going to be either Semi or Justise at PF. If Semi beats Justise out for those minutes (and thus Justise plays the vast majority of his minutes at SF), then Semi will be in the 8-man rotation. If Justise beats our Semi for backup PF, then we'll probably have a 7-man rotation (with Semi, Matt, and Grayson all getting token plus blowout minutes).

Having said that, it's certainly possible that Matt wins his way into the rotation, but to do so he'll probably have to beat out someone (e.g., Semi AND Justise or Quinn) for perimeter minutes, and I'm not as hopeful as some that it'll happen.

JPtheGame
05-16-2014, 01:40 PM
If only we had a guy 6'8 or taller with the ball skills to be a 3 but the size to play as a 4 in a small lineup.

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/98987/position-battles-power-forwards

Oh right, we did but he left to go battle 3 other guys at Florida for very limited minutes.

Kedsy
05-16-2014, 01:48 PM
If only we had a guy 6'8 or taller with the ball skills to be a 3 but the size to play as a 4 in a small lineup.

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/98987/position-battles-power-forwards

Oh right, we did but he left to go battle 3 other guys at Florida for very limited minutes.

We have Semi and Justise who can play the same positions and are at least as good if not better options than Alex Murphy. I like all our guys and it makes me sad when players transfer, but there's really no good basketball reason to whine about not having Alex.

Saratoga2
05-16-2014, 02:18 PM
1) Rasheed is pretty tall. He's definitely at least 6'3", more like 6'4". That's decent size for a 3. Freshman Sulaimon held his own pretty well against 3s, so I guess that he'll be okay.
MN> Yes, I have stood right beside him, and Rasheed is every bit of 6/3-6/4, and lengthy. He is not small. We will not be at much of a disadvantage if at all with him at the 3 spot, even with Quinn and Tyus on the floor with him.
2) M. Jones is a big dude, both in height and bulk. He's considerably "meatier" than Sulaimon and probably an inch taller, too. NOTE: "Meatier" can mean muscle, can mean muscle/fat. Not sure what M. Jones's body type is like.
MN> True again. He is a bigger boned kid than is Rasheed, also with good length and to be honest is probably close to Rasheed in terms of quickness. We can play him at the 3 with Cook and Tyus on the floor with no trouble at all in my opinion. I have no worries with Matt on defense, but I do hope he can improve a lot on Offense, both with his 3 point shot, and scoring in general.
3) I know we'll be seeing some T Jones and Cook out on the floor, but I just don't see how it works. Both aren't good defenders right now and I have a feeling that Coach K is going to prioritize D over O next year.
MN> Like others have stated, we will almost certainly see both of them on the floor for at least 10-15 mpg, and while I certainly agree that Cook has not been a consistent defender, he has shown flashes at times of being able to ball hawk. Yes he gets beat off the dribble a lot, but he has also been disruptive at times, drawing multiple 5 Second Calls, sometimes more than 1 in the same game. A lot of defense is desire. Seems trite but it's true. With Tyus, I would strongly encourage everyone to wait and see. You never know how good a kid is going to defend on the college level until they get on the floor in College games. The jury will be out on Tyus the individual Duke defender, and Tyus the team defender in Duke's Defensive Scheme, until we see him play a handful of college games in a Duke uniform. Maybe like Tyler Thornton, the kid walks in the door fully understanding and grasping K's scheme's, and fully able to execute them properly possession after possession. Also, one advantage those guys will have next season that we did not have this season, is size behind them in the middle 100% of the time. That actually does make a difference. Either Jahlil or MP3 will be on the floor 99% of the time. As a guard, you can approach your assignment differently if you know there is strong help behind you.
4) If AJ gains a mid-range and is able to be a decent threat on O, I think that Okafor doesn't need to be surrounded by 3pt shooters. Given that T Jones and Winslow don't really have 3pt reputations, they may see more time. Now, if AJ doesn't gain any range, I think we'll be seeing a lot of Sulaimon and Cook, potentially at the expense of Winslow.
MN- More on AJ below, but I think we will see a lot of Sulaimon and Cook regardless, but there will be many battles for PT at the 1-4 positions throughout the season. K has no fear of going small, and he also is not scared to sit a Junior or Senior in favor of a Freshman or Soph that is outplaying the upperclassmen on the court. So any scenario could play out, I just happen to believe that Cook has enough talent and desire not to become a little used scrub (but again to reiterate, I fully expecft Tyus Jones to be the starting PG from Day 1 and not lose the job)
5) Next year seems to be the year of the unknowns:
a) How will AJ improve? MN-While I don't believe Amile is ever going to be a good/great shooter, I fully believe he is going to be a good to great scorer before all is said an done. I said many times last season our offense was MUCH better in the games where Amile was actively hunting buckets. It opened up a lot of things within the offense. The kid can score and can do it in a variety of ways. He will be a Junior. One year older, wiser, stronger, maybe adds 5 pounds or so, and we often forget a key element. He previously was a frosh and soph going against older, bigger, stronger, veteran players, or in some cases stud freshman, yet he had moderate success scoring the ball against those guys as a frosh, and was better at it as a Soph. Now the opponents will either be guys he has played against his entire career who have little to no advantage over him, or stud freshman who are now facing the Junior version Amile, or lastly, non-stud freshman and Soph's who are far less experienced than Amile. To me, that matters and it matters a lot. If given the opportunity, and if he actively hunts buckets, I think Amile can easily score 10.0 to say 12.0 ppg, maybe even a little bit more. In those matchups Amile will now be the vet with the advantage and I believe he can and will take full advantage of that. He should be a great complement to Jahlil in the paint.
b) How good is Winslow's D?
MN- Same answer as above with Tyus. We will know when we see it. We do know that physically, he seemingly has all the tools required to be a good college defender. Disclaimer: We have had kids, including this past season, that seemingly had all the tools in the defensive tool bag, but for whatever reason, it did not translate. I hope Winslow falls in the other category.
c) How good is Winslow's O?
MN- Like Tommy, I fall on the side of optimism here. I think Winslow can be a very effective scorer, with or without being a lights out 3 point shooter. That said, I really don't think we will need a lot of points from Winslow this season. We should get plenty of scoring from others. If Winslow can be a solid scorer it will be a great bonus actually.
d) Will Cook be more consistent?
MN- At one point this past season I almost gave up on Quinn. I know some here have given up on him. However, he played his butt off in that last game, and the "Good Quinn" is really good, like 1st Team All-ACC type good. It is do or die for him, and if his heart is as big as I think it is, he will play good, consistent ball for the most part in his Senior Campaign. Lastly, I always put a lot of stock in the insights Jim Sumner shares with us, and Jim is on record in this thread of believing Cook will play a lot and play well. It could go the other way I suppose, but until proven otherwise I am casting my vote in the same hat as Mr Jim, thank you.
e) Can T Jones play defense?
MN-Yes
f) Will M Jones find his shot?
MN-TBD. His form is not great, he has a hitch, and doesn't always get good rotation, but players with similar traits have been great shooters in the past. You always prefer the great shooting form of players like Mark Price, JJ Redick, Andre Dawkins, etc, but there is more than one way to knock down 3 pointers consistently. MJones did have the rep of a great shooter, especially in the summer after his Junior Season on the AAU circuit, but for whatever reason, it did not translate this past season.
g) Will Semi be the back-up at the 4 that we need?
MN- Also TBD, but fascinating player and great scenaro for debate. I am still undecided, though I lean slightly to the side of "Semi develops into really solid College Player". If he figures it out this season, then wow, can he help this team in multiple ways on both sides of the ball. His quickness, leaping ability, size, strength, are all off the charts good. If he figures out how to use all of those skills effectively, the sky is the limit in terms of what he is capable of. I really, really hope he is patient, and develops year over year as that will be so much fun to watch, even not counting the benefits to the team. He has somewhat of a slow release on his 3 point shot, but he showed the ability to knock that shot down in the limited opportunities he got this past season. And to tie it back into the thread title, if you have Semi, Amile, Jahlil, on the floor together, then putting Tyus and Quinn out there together should work just fine. Same for a line up with Rasheed, Semi, Jahlil, at the 3,4,5, with Tyus & Quinn.

So with all that, the potential of having success with both Quinn and Tyus on the floor at the same time, is certainly there with several different line up combinations. Pairing them together in the backcourt does not have to automatically mean a weak defensive team. Oddly enough, some of our bigger line ups this past season were not great defensively. I would not assume that the defense this year would be bad with those two guys in the lineup. Could be of course. Something to watch for. When is the first exhibition? Let's go already!



A touch or realism and quite optimistic. I hope that the guys develop and that some one or two players take on the mantle of leadership. To me it should come from a junior or senior. Quinn would be a candidate as would Rasheed. Amile is also a candidate, but none of those three seem to have shown that kind of personality in the past, but given the responsibility might adjust their approach and become a strong leader.

flyingdutchdevil
05-16-2014, 02:36 PM
1) Rasheed is pretty tall. He's definitely at least 6'3", more like 6'4". That's decent size for a 3. Freshman Sulaimon held his own pretty well against 3s, so I guess that he'll be okay.
MN> Yes, I have stood right beside him, and Rasheed is every bit of 6/3-6/4, and lengthy. He is not small. We will not be at much of a disadvantage if at all with him at the 3 spot, even with Quinn and Tyus on the floor with him.
2) M. Jones is a big dude, both in height and bulk. He's considerably "meatier" than Sulaimon and probably an inch taller, too. NOTE: "Meatier" can mean muscle, can mean muscle/fat. Not sure what M. Jones's body type is like.
MN> True again. He is a bigger boned kid than is Rasheed, also with good length and to be honest is probably close to Rasheed in terms of quickness. We can play him at the 3 with Cook and Tyus on the floor with no trouble at all in my opinion. I have no worries with Matt on defense, but I do hope he can improve a lot on Offense, both with his 3 point shot, and scoring in general.
3) I know we'll be seeing some T Jones and Cook out on the floor, but I just don't see how it works. Both aren't good defenders right now and I have a feeling that Coach K is going to prioritize D over O next year.
MN> Like others have stated, we will almost certainly see both of them on the floor for at least 10-15 mpg, and while I certainly agree that Cook has not been a consistent defender, he has shown flashes at times of being able to ball hawk. Yes he gets beat off the dribble a lot, but he has also been disruptive at times, drawing multiple 5 Second Calls, sometimes more than 1 in the same game. A lot of defense is desire. Seems trite but it's true. With Tyus, I would strongly encourage everyone to wait and see. You never know how good a kid is going to defend on the college level until they get on the floor in College games. The jury will be out on Tyus the individual Duke defender, and Tyus the team defender in Duke's Defensive Scheme, until we see him play a handful of college games in a Duke uniform. Maybe like Tyler Thornton, the kid walks in the door fully understanding and grasping K's scheme's, and fully able to execute them properly possession after possession. Also, one advantage those guys will have next season that we did not have this season, is size behind them in the middle 100% of the time. That actually does make a difference. Either Jahlil or MP3 will be on the floor 99% of the time. As a guard, you can approach your assignment differently if you know there is strong help behind you.
4) If AJ gains a mid-range and is able to be a decent threat on O, I think that Okafor doesn't need to be surrounded by 3pt shooters. Given that T Jones and Winslow don't really have 3pt reputations, they may see more time. Now, if AJ doesn't gain any range, I think we'll be seeing a lot of Sulaimon and Cook, potentially at the expense of Winslow.
MN- More on AJ below, but I think we will see a lot of Sulaimon and Cook regardless, but there will be many battles for PT at the 1-4 positions throughout the season. K has no fear of going small, and he also is not scared to sit a Junior or Senior in favor of a Freshman or Soph that is outplaying the upperclassmen on the court. So any scenario could play out, I just happen to believe that Cook has enough talent and desire not to become a little used scrub (but again to reiterate, I fully expecft Tyus Jones to be the starting PG from Day 1 and not lose the job)
5) Next year seems to be the year of the unknowns:
a) How will AJ improve? MN-While I don't believe Amile is ever going to be a good/great shooter, I fully believe he is going to be a good to great scorer before all is said an done. I said many times last season our offense was MUCH better in the games where Amile was actively hunting buckets. It opened up a lot of things within the offense. The kid can score and can do it in a variety of ways. He will be a Junior. One year older, wiser, stronger, maybe adds 5 pounds or so, and we often forget a key element. He previously was a frosh and soph going against older, bigger, stronger, veteran players, or in some cases stud freshman, yet he had moderate success scoring the ball against those guys as a frosh, and was better at it as a Soph. Now the opponents will either be guys he has played against his entire career who have little to no advantage over him, or stud freshman who are now facing the Junior version Amile, or lastly, non-stud freshman and Soph's who are far less experienced than Amile. To me, that matters and it matters a lot. If given the opportunity, and if he actively hunts buckets, I think Amile can easily score 10.0 to say 12.0 ppg, maybe even a little bit more. In those matchups Amile will now be the vet with the advantage and I believe he can and will take full advantage of that. He should be a great complement to Jahlil in the paint.
b) How good is Winslow's D?
MN- Same answer as above with Tyus. We will know when we see it. We do know that physically, he seemingly has all the tools required to be a good college defender. Disclaimer: We have had kids, including this past season, that seemingly had all the tools in the defensive tool bag, but for whatever reason, it did not translate. I hope Winslow falls in the other category.
c) How good is Winslow's O?
MN- Like Tommy, I fall on the side of optimism here. I think Winslow can be a very effective scorer, with or without being a lights out 3 point shooter. That said, I really don't think we will need a lot of points from Winslow this season. We should get plenty of scoring from others. If Winslow can be a solid scorer it will be a great bonus actually.
d) Will Cook be more consistent?
MN- At one point this past season I almost gave up on Quinn. I know some here have given up on him. However, he played his butt off in that last game, and the "Good Quinn" is really good, like 1st Team All-ACC type good. It is do or die for him, and if his heart is as big as I think it is, he will play good, consistent ball for the most part in his Senior Campaign. Lastly, I always put a lot of stock in the insights Jim Sumner shares with us, and Jim is on record in this thread of believing Cook will play a lot and play well. It could go the other way I suppose, but until proven otherwise I am casting my vote in the same hat as Mr Jim, thank you.
e) Can T Jones play defense?
MN-Yes
f) Will M Jones find his shot?
MN-TBD. His form is not great, he has a hitch, and doesn't always get good rotation, but players with similar traits have been great shooters in the past. You always prefer the great shooting form of players like Mark Price, JJ Redick, Andre Dawkins, etc, but there is more than one way to knock down 3 pointers consistently. MJones did have the rep of a great shooter, especially in the summer after his Junior Season on the AAU circuit, but for whatever reason, it did not translate this past season.
g) Will Semi be the back-up at the 4 that we need?
MN- Also TBD, but fascinating player and great scenaro for debate. I am still undecided, though I lean slightly to the side of "Semi develops into really solid College Player". If he figures it out this season, then wow, can he help this team in multiple ways on both sides of the ball. His quickness, leaping ability, size, strength, are all off the charts good. If he figures out how to use all of those skills effectively, the sky is the limit in terms of what he is capable of. I really, really hope he is patient, and develops year over year as that will be so much fun to watch, even not counting the benefits to the team. He has somewhat of a slow release on his 3 point shot, but he showed the ability to knock that shot down in the limited opportunities he got this past season. And to tie it back into the thread title, if you have Semi, Amile, Jahlil, on the floor together, then putting Tyus and Quinn out there together should work just fine. Same for a line up with Rasheed, Semi, Jahlil, at the 3,4,5, with Tyus & Quinn.

So with all that, the potential of having success with both Quinn and Tyus on the floor at the same time, is certainly there with several different line up combinations. Pairing them together in the backcourt does not have to automatically mean a weak defensive team. Oddly enough, some of our bigger line ups this past season were not great defensively. I would not assume that the defense this year would be bad with those two guys in the lineup. Could be of course. Something to watch for. When is the first exhibition? Let's go already!



Very nice post, Newton. And love the optimism!

Count me as one of the posters who never gave up on Cook. I loved his game in the first half of last season, and the only thing that I couldn't stand was his hero ball, which he cut down considerably in the second half. Cook is a great passer, a very good ball handler, and a very good shooter. We're lucky to have him.

The one area where I think you're being too optimistic is Tyus's defense. You're right, we haven't seen him play college D. But consider the following:

a) You rarely see anything written about Tyus's defense in high school.
b) In multiple training sessions for high school All-Star games, many analysts criticized Tyus's defense. These All-Star training sessions aren't like the games; rather, players really seem to hustle and try their best
c) The big knock against Tyus is that he isn't that athletic. And while athleticism doesn't automatically turn you into an amazing defender, it does give you an edge.

Now, I hope that Tyus Jones has Aaron Craft-like desire. But, as of right now, I'm not at all sold on Tyus as a defender. As an offensive player and distributor? Absolutely. His passing, his decision making, his clutch ability, and his driving are all excellent.

Newton_14
05-16-2014, 10:16 PM
Very nice post, Newton. And love the optimism!

Count me as one of the posters who never gave up on Cook. I loved his game in the first half of last season, and the only thing that I couldn't stand was his hero ball, which he cut down considerably in the second half. Cook is a great passer, a very good ball handler, and a very good shooter. We're lucky to have him.

The one area where I think you're being too optimistic is Tyus's defense. You're right, we haven't seen him play college D. But consider the following:

a) You rarely see anything written about Tyus's defense in high school.
b) In multiple training sessions for high school All-Star games, many analysts criticized Tyus's defense. These All-Star training sessions aren't like the games; rather, players really seem to hustle and try their best
c) The big knock against Tyus is that he isn't that athletic. And while athleticism doesn't automatically turn you into an amazing defender, it does give you an edge.

Now, I hope that Tyus Jones has Aaron Craft-like desire. But, as of right now, I'm not at all sold on Tyus as a defender. As an offensive player and distributor? Absolutely. His passing, his decision making, his clutch ability, and his driving are all excellent.

To clarify, regarding the optimism, I was trying to paint pictures of how the Cook/Tyus backcourt could work, without going into a crazy land of "no chance in hell that will ever happen". I'm not saying flatly it will work, and I am not backtracking. I do think that backcourt can be successful, yet I realize it could be a disaster. As of right now, and again, especially after reading the Sumner commentary, I lean to the side of "Quinn will play well, Tyus will be a better defender than people expect". I know the scouts are not high on Tyus Jones the defender, and he certainly is not strong, and not crazy athletic. I just personally feel that most every High School Freshman walks in the door not having a clue about how to play college defense. Those with the tools and those without face the same steep learning curve with regards to college defense. Some pick up quickly, some never at all. I admit the evidence suggests Tyus is not a strong defender, but I still think it wise to have a wait and see attitude on whether he plays good defense or not.

Last summer, I fully expected the 2013-14 Blue Devils to be very strong defensively based on the personell and their individual skillsets. I was off by a mile with that thought. I even compared them to the 88 team which I still believe was one of the best Duke Defenses I have ever seen. Ouch.

This summer I am in full wait and see mode with our defense. About the only thing I am confident in with that is what I said in my post, Rasheed and Matt can guard most College 3's. Outside of that I don't really know what to expect on that side of the floor.

gurufrisbee
05-18-2014, 09:27 AM
I think it's very likely both Cook and Jones play together. They may not both start, but I think you'll see them both together a lot at the end of games. One thing that was sorely missed this last season was leadership on the court. Cook was the best one on the team for that, but as is still a mystery, he was often in Coach K's doghouse and on the bench when we needed him (though he did also have several games where he didn't start, but ended up playing almost the entire second half because he was clearly so vital to the team). Jones is also reported to be a great leader. We need to get back to when we never let games get away because we had more leadership in crunch time on the court than anyone. Hurley, Laettner, Hill. Scheyer, Nolan, Singler. Battier, Williams, Duhon. You look at the last three years and that is the glaring hole. Why did we lose against Lehigh? Curry in foul trouble, Kelly hurt, and Mason still hadn't really stepped up. THe next year those three guys absolutely did and we almost were in the final four. Then they all graduated and no one stepped up last year. This is why I think a lot of times this next year we'll see Jones, Cook, and SHeed all together because they are the three guys who have to all step up to the level of leadership on the court we have had in the past and need again.

Saratoga2
05-18-2014, 12:14 PM
Very nice post, Newton. And love the optimism!

Count me as one of the posters who never gave up on Cook. I loved his game in the first half of last season, and the only thing that I couldn't stand was his hero ball, which he cut down considerably in the second half. Cook is a great passer, a very good ball handler, and a very good shooter. We're lucky to have him.

The one area where I think you're being too optimistic is Tyus's defense. You're right, we haven't seen him play college D. But consider the following:

a) You rarely see anything written about Tyus's defense in high school.
b) In multiple training sessions for high school All-Star games, many analysts criticized Tyus's defense. These All-Star training sessions aren't like the games; rather, players really seem to hustle and try their best
c) The big knock against Tyus is that he isn't that athletic. And while athleticism doesn't automatically turn you into an amazing defender, it does give you an edge.

Now, I hope that Tyus Jones has Aaron Craft-like desire. But, as of right now, I'm not at all sold on Tyus as a defender. As an offensive player and distributor? Absolutely. His passing, his decision making, his clutch ability, and his driving are all excellent.

Bringing up Aaron Craft when talking about Tyus is an interesting comparison. Aaron was not really that tall (maybe 6'1" and when you look at his agility drills he didn't score that well. Yet Aaron was often talked about as a great defender. Maybe Tyus will have that same kind of determination and floor vision that can translate into a top defender in time.

NSDukeFan
05-18-2014, 12:17 PM
I believe both Cook and Jones (as well as Sulaimon) will play big minutes and a bunch of those minutes will be together. Where Cook may be challenged by Jones is at the end of games. When Cook is playing at his all-ACC best, he tends to be very good at creating shots at the end of shot clocks, or in stall ball at the end of games. He has often ended up getting to the hoop very well for scores and/or free throws. I am assuming that Jones will have the ball in his hands at the end of games this coming year and that may be an adjustment for Cook, though I expect he will still likely have lots of opportunities to create scoring chances and make free throws at the end of games.

wk2109
05-18-2014, 03:31 PM
Why did we lose against Lehigh? Curry in foul trouble, Kelly hurt, and Mason still hadn't really stepped up.

I agree with what you're saying about leadership for the most part, but Duke did not lose to Lehigh because "Mason still hadn't really stepped up." Mason was 9/9 from the field for 19 points. Duke lost because the perimeter couldn't guard CJ McCollum and because Austin, Andre and Seth shot a combined 8/32.

As far as Quinn and Tyus go, I think it's almost certain and Quinn and Tyus will spend a lot of time on the court together. Coach K plays his best players and Quinn and Tyus will almost certainly be among his best players. Maybe they both won't start (for the record I think they both will), but they will be on the court in tandem a lot.

The only time two guys are mutually exclusive on the court is if they're both true centers (the last time I remember this happening is with Miles and Zoubek in 2010). This is why Marshall and Jahlil will probably spend virtually 0 time on the court together.

Edouble
05-19-2014, 03:46 AM
I think it's very likely both Cook and Jones play together. They may not both start, but I think you'll see them both together a lot at the end of games. One thing that was sorely missed this last season was leadership on the court. Cook was the best one on the team for that, but as is still a mystery, he was often in Coach K's doghouse and on the bench when we needed him (though he did also have several games where he didn't start, but ended up playing almost the entire second half because he was clearly so vital to the team). Jones is also reported to be a great leader. We need to get back to when we never let games get away because we had more leadership in crunch time on the court than anyone. Hurley, Laettner, Hill. Scheyer, Nolan, Singler. Battier, Williams, Duhon. You look at the last three years and that is the glaring hole. Why did we lose against Lehigh? Curry in foul trouble, Kelly hurt, and Mason still hadn't really stepped up. THe next year those three guys absolutely did and we almost were in the final four. Then they all graduated and no one stepped up last year. This is why I think a lot of times this next year we'll see Jones, Cook, and SHeed all together because they are the three guys who have to all step up to the level of leadership on the court we have had in the past and need again.

I really don't think Cook was out best on court leader last season. He wasn't even a captain.

Also, this was addressed in several thread throughout the season, but Cook was never in Coach K's doghouse last year. He logged 11 and 14 minutes in two February games, IIRC, but was never far outside significant game minutes throughout the season.

jv001
05-19-2014, 07:29 AM
I believe both Cook and Jones (as well as Sulaimon) will play big minutes and a bunch of those minutes will be together. Where Cook may be challenged by Jones is at the end of games. When Cook is playing at his all-ACC best, he tends to be very good at creating shots at the end of shot clocks, or in stall ball at the end of games. He has often ended up getting to the hoop very well for scores and/or free throws. I am assuming that Jones will have the ball in his hands at the end of games this coming year and that may be an adjustment for Cook, though I expect he will still likely have lots of opportunities to create scoring chances and make free throws at the end of games.

Unfortunately, I didn't see Quinn creating at the end of half, game or shot clock last year. At the beginning of the year, he was able to drive the lane and make some nifty moves/makes and passes to open team mates. But as the year went on, he seemed not as quick with the ball. Could have been loss of confidence or injury. I hope to see Quinn Cook healthy and at his best this coming season. I believe he just might be the X-factor this year. GoDuke!

_Gary
05-20-2014, 10:32 AM
Unfortunately, I didn't see Quinn creating at the end of half, game or shot clock last year. At the beginning of the year, he was able to drive the lane and make some nifty moves/makes and passes to open team mates. But as the year went on, he seemed not as quick with the ball. Could have been loss of confidence or injury. I hope to see Quinn Cook healthy and at his best this coming season. I believe he just might be the X-factor this year. GoDuke!

I concur with this observation. Quinn didn't show me the ability to break down defenders or penetrate the lane much at all last season. If he can regain that ability and make it a strength of his game, while keeping his shooting touch from distance solid, then I believe a combo of Cook and Jones could work. But I'm just not sure he has the quickness to pull this off any more. He seems to have lost a step somewhere along the way, imho.

Since I never got back around to discussing a grouping of Quinn/Tyus/Rasheed I'll do so now. I still maintain that group on the floor together makes us too small. If used sparingly then fine. But if that's our starting group I think it makes us too vulnerable to larger teams. But I'm clearly in the minority on that so I'll say no more (and hope others of you are right - because I do think we'll see that combo on the court a lot).