Former Duke FB player Ray Farmer = genius? [Archive]

sagegrouse

05-09-2014, 09:48 AM

Cleve column take:

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2014/05/cleveland_browns_scribbles_gen.html

Not stated in the Pluto column, the Browns' offensive coordinator is Kyle Shanahan, previously at the Skins -- where he devised an offense for RG iii -- and at Houston. Shanahan's Redskins' offense led the league in yards per play in 2012 (6.2), when Kyle put an offense in place that took advantage of features of the Baylor offense run by RG III.

Expect the same thing with the Browns -- using parts of the A&M offense with the Browns.

Newton_14

05-09-2014, 01:02 PM

CameronBornAndBred

05-09-2014, 03:10 PM

The Brown's made the pick because a homeless guy told them to do it.

Palantonio says Haslam told him, "Here in Cleveland, everywhere I go, people know me. And I was out to dinner recently. And a homeless person was out on the street, looked up at me and said, 'Draft Manziel.' Just like that."
And that, Palantonio says, convinced Haslam "that the Cleveland Browns (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/team/cleveland-browns/67042)' fans wanted Manziel."

http://msn.foxsports.com/ohio/story/a-homeless-man-convinced-jimmy-haslam-on-johnny-football-050814

BD80

05-09-2014, 03:41 PM

Interesting pick. It will be complicated by the popularity of the pick in Cleveland.

Browns fans are nothing if not long-suffering. They have embraced Johnny Football as their savior. The clamor to start him has already started.

Is the AFC north really the best place for a young QB like Manziel to undergo baptism by fire, starting with game 1 against the Steelers? The Steelers and Ravens are likely to separate Johnny from his senses like a cute coed on South Padre Island. The Bengals have put together a fairly intimidating D as well. I don't see Johnny getting away with the same antics in the NFL that served him so well in college. Maybe he could survive in the NFC East or the AFC east, but the NFC north is not conducive to his verticality.

dukelifer

05-09-2014, 05:00 PM

I could be proven wrong of course, but I thnk this was a great pick. Bad part for me is, the one time the stupid owner of my favorite team (Cowboys) needed to make a splash bringing in a high profile guy, he passes. I am not in the dadgum Christmas spirit dadgummit. I think Johnny Football is one of those rare, special talents, and will prove to be a great player in the NFL. He has gifts that can't be taught, and dude is Houdini with speed.

He will have to learn how to avoid getting broken in half by slidng, running out of bounds, ducking, etc, but I have no doubts in his skills. Dude can play.

Great pick Mr Farmer. Well done.

If he can stay healthy- he will be good. But that is a big if. The guy is not big and all it takes is being brash in the open field and getting smashed. If you want to survive in the NFL- your instincts have to be to avoid getting hit - either by getting the ball out of your hands as fast as possible or sliding quickly. Vick did not learn and he has not been able to stay on the field.

Henderson

05-09-2014, 05:15 PM

If he can stay healthy- he will be good. But that is a big if. The guy is not big and all it takes is being brash in the open field and getting smashed. If you want to survive in the NFL- your instincts have to be to avoid getting hit - either by getting the ball out of your hands as fast as possible or sliding quickly. Vick did not learn and he has not been able to stay on the field.

Think of it this way: What is the demonstrated number one motivation for Johnny Manziel? The first and foremost consideration for everything he does?

Enhance the Value of the Brand

An injury is bad for the brand. He'll slide.

nmduke2001

05-09-2014, 05:30 PM

I could be proven wrong of course, but I thnk this was a great pick. Bad part for me is, the one time the stupid owner of my favorite team (Cowboys) needed to make a splash bringing in a high profile guy, he passes. I am not in the dadgum Christmas spirit dadgummit. I think Johnny Football is one of those rare, special talents, and will prove to be a great player in the NFL. He has gifts that can't be taught, and dude is Houdini with speed.

He will have to learn how to avoid getting broken in half by slidng, running out of bounds, ducking, etc, but I have no doubts in his skills. Dude can play.

Great pick Mr Farmer. Well done.

As a Cowboys fan as well, I couldn't disagree more. The Cowboys have a ton of holes and QB isn't one of them. Manziel is 6'-0", has terrible throwing mechanics and is not nearly as good of an athlete as people believe (Andrew Luck had a better 40 time). I'm guessing Johnny is looking for a contract as a back-up after his rookie deal is finished. Jerry Jones (finally) made the smart choice.

Reisen

05-09-2014, 06:51 PM

Not stated in the Pluto column, the Browns' offensive coordinator is Kyle Shanahan, previously at the Skins -- where he devised an offense for RG iii -- and at Houston. Shanahan's Redskins' offense led the league in yards per play in 2012 (6.2), when Kyle put an offense in place that took advantage of features of the Baylor offense run by RG III.

Expect the same thing with the Browns -- using parts of the A&M offense with the Browns.

Also important to note, Kyle Shanahan was also a Blue Devil (for a very short time).

Des Esseintes

05-09-2014, 07:15 PM

Reilly

05-09-2014, 08:18 PM

The Brown's made the pick because a homeless guy told them to do it. ...

The times they are a changin: Richard Nixon once called a play for the Redskins; now a homeless guy directs the Browns's draft.

... likely to separate Johnny from his senses like a cute coed on South Padre Island ...

Johnny's probably experienced the other end of that equation, so might know how to parry. [The Scooby Doo photo cracks me up.]

brevity

05-09-2014, 08:39 PM

The Brown's made the pick because a homeless guy told them to do it.

In defense of the Browns, the homeless guy turned out to be Tim Couch.

Newton_14

05-09-2014, 08:40 PM

As a Cowboys fan as well, I couldn't disagree more. The Cowboys have a ton of holes and QB isn't one of them. Manziel is 6'-0", has terrible throwing mechanics and is not nearly as good of an athlete as people believe (Andrew Luck had a better 40 time). I'm guessing Johnny is looking for a contract as a back-up after his rookie deal is finished. Jerry Jones (finally) made the smart choice.

He ran a 4.6 in the 40, and below that in the 5-10-5 side to side drill (according to Steve Logan). Not sure if Logan was citing his times at the official Combine or at his Pro Day, either way, he has great speed for a QB. The Cowboys are a mess and I agree Romo is a good QB, he just isn't a great QB. In the two high pressure playoff games he has played in (at home against the Giants, and on the road against Minnesota) he performed poorly in both games. I love the guy, but the only way we win a Super Bowl with him is if we have a dominant defense and good players around him on offense. Plus Romo could have been traded to get some help on either side of the ball.

Until proven otherwise I stand by my gut, that Manziel has special talent that can't be taught, and if he learns to avoid big hits, he is going to be one heck of a QB. His arm strength and accuracy is better than he gets credit for.

I personally think the kid is smart enough to choose getting down over getting killed. He is small, but that can work to his advantage. Barry Sanders and Russel Wilson are small, but both avoided big hits.

He could flop but I am betting against that.

Edit: Forgot to add, until we get rid of Jerry Jones we are never winning anything anyway. Can someone please tape his private conversations for awhile just in case? :)

BlueDevilBrowns

05-09-2014, 11:32 PM

Well, being BOTH a life-long Cleveland Browns fan(3rd generation, actually) and a Blue Devil fan since 1988, I feel compelled to give my thoughts on this years' NFL Draft and the job of Browns' GM Ray Farmer.

The Good:

Farmer did a masterful job of trading back 5 spots with Buffalo and picking up their 1st round pick next year and a 4th rounder from them next year. Then, trading up a spot(costing only a 5th rounder to do so) to get the player they really wanted(the #1 CB on their board) only solidified the shrewdness of Farmer.

The Bad:

ESPN is reporting that Josh Gordon(for those that don't know, he lead the NFL in receiving yards last year and was All-Pro) will be suspended for the entire 2014 season due to a marijuana violation(his 3rd offense). Also, WR Nate Burleson broke his arm in minicamp and his status for the fall is now in doubt, as well.

Despite this, Farmer(thru the first 3 Rounds of the Draft) hasn't selected a single WR! Hopefully, Farmer and staff know something everyone else doesn't or has a trade lined up after the draft. Because otherwise, WR is a GLARING hole for this team that desperately needs to be addressed.

The Phenomenal:

Trading up from 26 to 22 to get Johnny Football...err... I mean Johnny Cleveland. NO pick could electrify the Browns Fanbase quite like Manziel. Absolute brilliant move by Farmer and co. to not only bring excitement to the North Coast again, but also to have the guts and the courage to make the boldest move of the draft in Farmer's very first as GM.

The knock on Manziel is his small size. However, he has 9 7/8" hands, so gripping the ball on cold, wet, Lake Erie days shouldn't be a problem. Also, his arm is not only stronger than people realize, he's also extremely accurate when throwing on the run and outside the pocket(something that's save Big Ben's hide for years' at Pittsburgh). Even more importantly, Manziel brings a "Swag" that the Browns' players definitely need.

The right player in the right city at the right time.

Bottom Line:

If Farmer on Day 3 or in the days following the Draft can figure out how to fill the massive crater left at WR now that Gordon is out, he may just truly be a genius.

Devil in the Blue Dress

05-10-2014, 12:05 AM

Cleveland needs wide receivers, good wide receivers. During Week 17 of the 2013 season, the Browns signed Conner Vernon to the practice squad. I'd love to see Conner running the routes and catching passes thrown by Johnny Manziel. ;)

dukelifer

05-10-2014, 07:33 AM

Think of it this way: What is the demonstrated number one motivation for Johnny Manziel? The first and foremost consideration for everything he does?

Enhance the Value of the Brand

An injury is bad for the brand. He'll slide.

True - but in the moment- he will revert to his natural style. The question is how long will it take him to learn.

nmduke2001

01-02-2015, 06:04 PM

I could be proven wrong of course, but I thnk this was a great pick. Bad part for me is, the one time the stupid owner of my favorite team (Cowboys) needed to make a splash bringing in a high profile guy, he passes. I am not in the dadgum Christmas spirit dadgummit. I think Johnny Football is one of those rare, special talents, and will prove to be a great player in the NFL. He has gifts that can't be taught, and dude is Houdini with speed.

He will have to learn how to avoid getting broken in half by slidng, running out of bounds, ducking, etc, but I have no doubts in his skills. Dude can play.

Great pick Mr Farmer. Well done.

Newton, I'm wondering if you've had a change of heart after a season to consider?

Here's hoping the Cowboys keep winning.

FireOgilvie

01-03-2015, 03:31 AM

Newton, I'm wondering if you've had a change of heart after a season to consider?

Here's hoping the Cowboys keep winning.

This thread is painful to read now. Such high hopes for Manziel. We'll see what happens.

Cleveland fans and their sports teams - so desperate for a winner. It clouds the judgment. I'm a long-suffering Cavs fan and I get it. I had a few people strongly object when I said Varejao wasn't a good long-term option due to his constant injuries. Of course they sign him to a new huge contract weeks before yet another season-ending injury. Trading away top picks, talk of firing Blatt, or Love to LA, LeBron telling Wade he's going to be reunited. It's all like some kind of cruel joke.

nmduke2001

01-03-2015, 09:28 AM

This thread is painful to read now. Such high hopes for Manziel. We'll see what happens.

Cleveland fans and their sports teams - so desperate for a winner. It clouds the judgment. I'm a long-suffering Cavs fan and I get it. I had a few people strongly object when I said Varejao wasn't a good long-term option due to his constant injuries. Of course they sign him to a new huge contract weeks before yet another season-ending injury. Trading away top picks, talk of firing Blatt, or Love to LA, LeBron telling Wade he's going to be reunited. It's all like some kind of cruel joke.

I think the cavs will be fine (it might take a year or two but they'll be fine).

Manziel was a huge red flag to start with. He doesn't have ideal size, his athleticism is overrated and my four year old is more mature. Even with all that, I'm surprised how quickly it turned. Several people are already saying Cleveland should cut bait. This has the chance of being an epic bust.

CDu

01-03-2015, 10:46 AM

I think the cavs will be fine (it might take a year or two but they'll be fine).

Manziel was a huge red flag to start with. He doesn't have ideal size, his athleticism is overrated and my four year old is more mature. Even with all that, I'm surprised how quickly it turned. Several people are already saying Cleveland should cut bait. This has the chance of being an epic bust.

To be fair, I am not sure any pick outside of the top-20 should really be considered a bust, much less an epic one. But early returns aren't suggesting Manziel will work out.

I think he is a very good but not great athlete with terrific quickness. But I think he lacks the arm strength to make the same plays he made in college, and as you said there are major maturity issues. It is hard to see him panning out.

jv001

01-03-2015, 11:04 AM

In all fairness to Ray, I'm wonder if it was Ray wanting Johnny or the owner wanting Johnny. JM was a very good college QB, but very good QBs don't always make it in the NFL. And as most posters have said, Johnny seems to lack the maturity to make it in the big time. I think Johnny had rather party than play football. That's ok if it doesn't interfere with your play on the field. I just don't think Johnny get's it. GoDuke!

sagegrouse

01-03-2015, 11:13 AM

To be fair, I am not sure any pick outside of the top-20 should really be considered a bust, much less an epic one. But early returns aren't suggesting Manziel will work out.

I think he is a very good but not great athlete with terrific quickness. But I think he lacks the arm strength to make the same plays he made in college, and as you said there are major maturity issues. It is hard to see him panning out.

Manziel gets an "Incomplete" for 2014. (Or, maybe, a "Dropped while Failing.") He was able to use his legs to make amazing plays in college, where he was faster and quicker than his pursuers. In the NFL we learned he was neither. Now he will have to make plays as a more traditional quarterback, and it will take time to learn the ropes there. I am not sure the NFL fans anywhere have the patience to wait a couple of years for an uncertain outcome.

Sage
'RGIII was, in fact, faster and maybe even quicker than his NFL pursuers, but not after he was pulled apart like a wishbone his rookie year. I expect Manziel, with a different running style, will prove more durable in both the dropback and the scramble than RGIII, but that doesn't make him a good NFL QB'

captmojo

01-03-2015, 11:18 AM

Don Imus had the correct nickname for him this season. It was Johnny Rookie Football Bi%&#h. :D

He'll learn. Or else, his veteran teammates will kill him.

Then again, maybe it'll be that homeless dude.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15

01-03-2015, 11:45 AM

I'd say that at the very least, the title of this thread ought to be amended... or answered.

YmoBeThere

01-03-2015, 12:56 PM

I'd say that at the very least, the title of this thread ought to be amended... or answered.

In Ray's defense, don't we all make errors in judgement at one time or another?

NashvilleDevil

01-03-2015, 01:00 PM

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15

01-03-2015, 01:08 PM

In Ray's defense, don't we all make errors in judgement at one time or another?

Without a doubt. But I don't think that the Johnny pick would be evidence of anyone's genius right now.

sagegrouse

01-03-2015, 01:11 PM

What stinks for the Browns is they could have drafted Odell Beckham with the 9th pick and then Teddy Bridgewater with the pick they used for Manziel.

I think everyone has some fault for Johnny's lost year. I think Pettine should have just named him the starter and lived with the growing pains this year. Instead he was jerked around from the minute he got in camp. Obviously Johnny should have shown more maturity.

Lessee... not to say that family history is destiny, but I believe that Johnny comes from a long line of oil wildcatters and devotees of cockfighting. Those who expect him to grow up to be Grant Hill (or Calvin Hill) may be disappointed.

I'm still pulling for the dude, but I don't expect miracles on the field next year. And his background sounds just fine for a swashbuckling pro football player, but not necessarily an elder in the church.

Des Esseintes

01-03-2015, 04:04 PM

What stinks for the Browns is they could have drafted Odell Beckham with the 9th pick and then Teddy Bridgewater with the pick they used for Manziel.

I think everyone has some fault for Johnny's lost year. I think Pettine should have just named him the starter and lived with the growing pains this year. Instead he was jerked around from the minute he got in camp. Obviously Johnny should have shown more maturity.

It would have *helped* matters to just hand him the starter's job before he had earned anything? Sounds like a killer recipe for losing your locker room and preventing accountability from ever taking root in your franchise qb.

Wander

01-03-2015, 04:09 PM

I'd say that at the very least, the title of this thread ought to be amended... or answered.

I can't remember where I first heard this, but the wisdom goes something like: never write an article, publish a paper, or in this case start a thread if the title of it can be answered with a one word "no."

BD80

01-03-2015, 06:14 PM

It would have *helped* matters to just hand him the starter's job before he had earned anything? Sounds like a killer recipe for losing your locker room and preventing accountability from ever taking root in your franchise qb.

It would have quashed the issue early in the season. There would be a brief memorial service each year in whichever stadium he met his cocky end, trying some high school juke only to be obliterated by one of the 6'3" 250lb linebackers in the AFC North.

NashvilleDevil

01-03-2015, 07:09 PM

It would have *helped* matters to just hand him the starter's job before he had earned anything? Sounds like a killer recipe for losing your locker room and preventing accountability from ever taking root in your franchise qb.

But we don't know how he would've responded if he was named the starter on day one. They were never going to win the Super Bowl and playoff spot was a long shot but see what he can do and how he handles the pro game. And as BD80 said if he gets crushed on a play that worked in college then you draft another QB in 2015.

I still am baffled that one lousy glorified practice dropped Bridgewater to the last pick of the 1st round. I think many teams will regret that decision for the next decade.

Henderson

01-03-2015, 08:56 PM

I refer all Johnny Lookatmeplease questions to Merril Hoge.

Johnny Beermeplease?

Johnny Thisisallthemoneyiwillevermake?

Johnny Idontwannagotoworktoday?

Johnny Isthereacliffnotesversionoftheplaybook?

Acymetric

01-03-2015, 10:31 PM

The Browns are the poster child for ruining a QB by putting him in to early. I'm pretty young by the board's standards I think but I've never been able to get behind this NFL trend of compulsively starting rookie quarterbacks. Let the young guys learn the game for a year or two! Brady, Brees, Rodgers, etc. Guys like Manning and Luck are the exception, not the model for how to bring a QB into the league.

Papa John

01-03-2015, 11:36 PM

In all fairness to Ray, I'm wonder if it was Ray wanting Johnny or the owner wanting Johnny.

Exactly... My understanding was that Farmer wanted to draft Bridgewater, but the owner called in the Johnny Football pick last minute.

Des Esseintes

01-04-2015, 12:55 AM

But we don't know how he would've responded if he was named the starter on day one. They were never going to win the Super Bowl and playoff spot was a long shot but see what he can do and how he handles the pro game. And as BD80 said if he gets crushed on a play that worked in college then you draft another QB in 2015.

I still am baffled that one lousy glorified practice dropped Bridgewater to the last pick of the 1st round. I think many teams will regret that decision for the next decade.

No, we don't know how he would've responded to being named starter from Day One. But why would you think this guy, who is overladen with entitlement issues already, would have behaved better having been handed the team on a silver platter? Moreover, Hoyer didn't turn into a pumpkin until the second half of the season. He was excellent for much of the year, way better than Manziel. What sort of message are you sending your team by just handing the starter's gig to the jacktard with character issues when he's getting outplayed in practice? Outplayed by a guy everyone saw play pretty solidly in 2013, no less?

nmduke2001

01-03-2016, 10:24 PM

YmoBeThere

01-04-2016, 01:18 AM

So, it would appear that the owner is the biggest issue in the franchise. Too bad for the fans in northeast Ohio. Though at this point they are probably all Steeler fans.

BD80

01-04-2016, 02:17 AM

... Too bad for the fans in northeast Ohio. Though at this point they are probably all Steeler fans.

As they should be.

As all fans of football should be

Bay Area Duke Fan

01-04-2016, 03:03 AM

So, it would appear that the owner is the biggest issue in the franchise. Too bad for the fans in northeast Ohio. Though at this point they are probably all Steeler fans.

No way that's gonna happen.

cspan37421

01-04-2016, 07:59 PM

The Browns are the poster child for ruining a QB by putting him in to early.

IMO, Johnny ruined himself.

BD80

01-04-2016, 07:59 PM

IMO, Johnny ruined himself.

Affluenza

cspan37421

01-04-2016, 08:01 PM

Probably doesn't deserve its own thread, so I'll put it here. Former Blue Devil Ray Farmer was fired today.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000614532/article/cleveland-browns-fire-mike-pettine-gm-ray-farmer

So will we ever know if the owner is pulling a CYA by firing Farmer, implying that drafting Manziel was Farmer's call, not his own, or if Farmer made the call (or agreed with it) and deserved his fate?