Okafor best college big man since Tim Duncan?

[NM Duke Fan]

"I'm not saying Okafor is going to be Tim Duncan because that wouldn't be fair. Duncan is one of the best big men to ever play basketball at any level, but Okafor is going to be the best pure center that the college game has seen in quite some time."

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/24538398/observations-jahlil-okafor-best-college-big-man-since-tim-duncan

[Tripping William]

I hope Emeka lives up to the hype. Oh wait ....

Actually, if there is any karmic justice, Jahlil will foul out all of UConn's big men in the national semifinals.

[Cameron]

Yes. It's beyond argument at this point.

[grossbus]

he would have to play four years to be comparable.

[Bob Green]

We should table this discussion until the summer between Okafor's junior and senior season.

[uh_no]

I hope Emeka lives up to the hype. Oh wait ....

Actually, if there is any karmic justice, Jahlil will foul out all of UConn's big men in the national semifinals.

nah....ollie took a page out of calhoun's book and benches his guys with 2 fouls until the end of the half...regardless of how early they pick up their second....perhaps even but 3 minutes into the game!

[Bluegrassdevil1]

So long as the bar is being set so unrealistically low... I hear Okafor has Russell's hands, Iverson's feet, Allen's jumper and Olajuwon's dexterity... you know, realistic expectations that are in no way driven to obtain web page hits.

As an aside, I heard Grayson Allen can dunk from crosscourt like the players in the video game NBA Jam.

[1999ballboy]

A one-and-done can be the best since Tim Duncan before he starts playing? Where does like a guy like Anthony Davis fit in? Guess Okafor's better than him too. Time to get my Duke 2015 National champs facial tattoo.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

We should table this discussion until the summer between Okafor's junior and senior season.

It's further proof that the game has passed K by - why hasn't Okafor's jersey been retired yet?

[camion]

I just hope he isn't a preseason first team All-American and doesn't self-designate a cool nickname like uh, Falcon or something. :(

[OldPhiKap]

Jahlil Okafor is what Willis was talking about.

[PSurprise]

Chuck Norris tried to drop kick Okafor but came away crying instead.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Agreeing with others that say it should not be up for debate until he gives us a few years, although I think 1999ballboy's tattoo ought to include "Okafor, Best Ever" underneath it.

[MCFinARL]

"I'm not saying Okafor is going to be Tim Duncan because that wouldn't be fair. Duncan is one of the best big men to ever play basketball at any level, but Okafor is going to be the best pure center that the college game has seen in quite some time."

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/24538398/observations-jahlil-okafor-best-college-big-man-since-tim-duncan

Yeah, but how will he compare to Patrick Davidson?

[killerleft]

Timmy Duncan has been dreading this annointment for years. He at least hoped that the new Duncan would be a Deacon. Sorry, Tim. And I would have settled for the new Gminski! With a longer neck, of course.:)

[UrinalCake]

Honestly I don't think anyone will ever have the four-year career that Duncan had, because no one stays that long. But if you want to compare Okafor's year to Duncan's freshman year, I think that's a reasonable expectation. Could it be as good as Duncan's senior year? That's pretty lofty and not fair to EXPECT, but that doesn't mean it won't happen.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Yeah, but how will he compare to Patrick Davidson?

I get the Duncan comparisons, but Patrick Davidson? Come on... you don't compare Hercules to Zeus, do you?

[MCFinARL]

I get the Duncan comparisons, but Patrick Davidson? Come on... you don't compare Hercules to Zeus, do you?

Well, you have a point--no fair putting that burden on a frosh, before we even know if he can leap tall buildings with a single bound.

[brevity]

I get the Duncan comparisons, but Patrick Davidson? Come on... you don't compare Hercules to Zeus, do you?

Sure you do, because the analogy works. Hercules was the son of Zeus. We are all Patrick Davidson's children.

[JayBean]

Memory is a little fuzzy, but I recall that Tim Duncan wasn't that big of a deal coming in. I remember some paper (Winston-Salem Journal?) had a blurb comparing the incoming freshmen before his first year at Wake. He came in the same class as Rasheed Wallace. Most other players had lists of awards and accolades. His line went something like 'Center from the Virgin Islands'...

The beginning of his first year wasn't that notable, if I recall. But I think he developed into a decent player.

Look at his wikipedia page if you get a chance, particularly the Wake Forest part.

[sagegrouse]

Memory is a little fuzzy, but I recall that Tim Duncan wasn't that big of a deal coming in. I remember some paper (Winston-Salem Journal?) had a blurb comparing the incoming freshmen before his first year at Wake. He came in the same class as Rasheed Wallace. Most other players had lists of awards and accolades. His line went something like 'Center from the Virgin Islands'...

The beginning of his first year wasn't that notable, if I recall. But I think he developed into a decent player.

Look at his wikipedia page if you get a chance, particularly the Wake Forest part.

You are correct! No one knew anything about Duncan, and even Dave Odom was probably astounded how good he was.

[CDu]

Memory is a little fuzzy, but I recall that Tim Duncan wasn't that big of a deal coming in. I remember some paper (Winston-Salem Journal?) had a blurb comparing the incoming freshmen before his first year at Wake. He came in the same class as Rasheed Wallace. Most other players had lists of awards and accolades. His line went something like 'Center from the Virgin Islands'...

The beginning of his first year wasn't that notable, if I recall. But I think he developed into a decent player.

Look at his wikipedia page if you get a chance, particularly the Wake Forest part.

As a freshman, Duncan averaged under 10 ppg. He was extremely good as a sophomore (16.8 ppg, 12.5 rpg) and continued to improve each year after that (20.1 ppg and 14.7 rpg as a senior!).

If Okafor averages just 9.8 ppg next year, I think folks will be disappointed.

[CameronBornAndBred]

As a freshman, Duncan averaged under 10 ppg. He was extremely good as a sophomore (16.8 ppg, 12.5 rpg) and continued to improve each year after that (20.1 ppg and 14.7 rpg as a senior!).

If Okafor averages just 9.8 ppg next year, I think folks will be disappointed.
But he won't go to the NBA. :D

[crimsonandblue]

As a freshman, Duncan averaged under 10 ppg. He was extremely good as a sophomore (16.8 ppg, 12.5 rpg) and continued to improve each year after that (20.1 ppg and 14.7 rpg as a senior!).

If Okafor averages just 9.8 ppg next year, I think folks will be disappointed.

College basketball was a little different when Duncan came through. So, folks should be disappointed with 9.8 (and he won't score just 9.8).

[CameronBornAndBred]

College basketball was a little different when Duncan came through. So, folks should be disappointed with 9.8 (and he won't score just 9.8).
Did they wear tighter shorts? Smaller hoop? Less facial hair? Just curious what you mean.
Nobody would have been disappointed with Duncan's 9.8 because nobody was hyping him to be the next coming of Ralph Sampson, which in modern day terms is exactly what we are doing with Okafor.

(Edit, don't post late, you will mix up players. Sorry, Ralph :) )

[Edouble]

Did they wear tighter shorts? Smaller hoop? Less facial hair? Just curious what you mean.
Nobody would have been disappointed with Duncan's 9.8 because nobody was hyping him to be the next coming of Ralph Sampson, which in modern day terms is exactly what we are doing with Okafor.

(Edit, don't post late, you will mix up players. Sorry, Ralph :) )

I think what he means is that the 1994 NCAA All American Team, Timmy's frosh year, was:

Grant Hill- Senior
Jason Kidd- Sophomore
Donyell Marshall- Junior
Glenn Robinson- Junior
Clifford Rozier - Junior

It was not common to put the highest of expectations on first year players. Nowadays, the Doug McDermotts of the world are the exceptions. Back then they were the norm.

[kAzE]

There's no way knowing for sure, but I'll say there's almost no chance Okafor will be as good as Duncan. Duncan is already one of the top 10 players in the history of basketball. We can pretty much close that discussion until further notice. As for recent comparisons, I see Okafor as a slightly more skilled version of Jared Sullinger. Sullinger came into college at 6'9", 265, with a reputation for being a skilled low post scorer with good feel and good body control, which is very close to what I think Okafor is. Both of them are going to struggle against more athletic centers with length.

Sullinger hasn't exactly lit it up in the NBA, but I think he will potentially be a double double guy down the road. He's definitely a starter in the league, but isn't the type of franchise center people thought he would be out of high school. Okafor is a little bit bigger, and maybe a slightly better scorer, but I think he's going to have the same weaknesses as Sullinger at the next level defensively, and struggling against elite athletes on offense.

In college, however, there's not going to be many guys who can stop him. If the age limit gets raised, and Okafor stays 2 years, I think think Duke benefits more than anyone. Might Adam Silver being a Duke alum have anything to do with this? Hmmmm ;)

In terms of the best big man since Duncan, Anthony Davis currently holds that title, and I'm guessing he will continue to hold that title for some time. He's going to be a perennial MVP candidate in the NBA starting next year, if he can stay healthy. Davis is a beast.

[yancem]

If memory serves, Cherokee Parks was hailed as the most skilled center prospect since Bill Walton. While being the next Duncan may be a bit of a stretch, I do think that he is the most skilled big to come out of high school in a while. The comparison to Sullinger may be close but Okafor is bigger in height and in wingspan. I also think that he may be slightly more athletic as well. I think that he will be a better pro when he gets to the league but we will have to wait to see.

[COYS]

There's no way knowing for sure, but I'll say there's almost no chance Okafor will be as good as Duncan. Duncan is already one of the top 10 players in the history of basketball. We can pretty much close that discussion until further notice. As for recent comparisons, I see Okafor as a slightly more skilled version of Jared Sullinger. Sullinger came into college at 6'9", 265, with a reputation for being a skilled low post scorer with good feel and good body control, which is very close to what I think Okafor is. Both of them are going to struggle against more athletic centers with length.

Sullinger hasn't exactly lit it up in the NBA, but I think he will potentially be a double double guy down the road. He's definitely a starter in the league, but isn't the type of franchise center people thought he would be out of high school. Okafor is a little bit bigger, and maybe a slightly better scorer, but I think he's going to have the same weaknesses as Sullinger at the next level defensively, and struggling against elite athletes on offense.

In college, however, there's not going to be many guys who can stop him. If the age limit gets raised, and Okafor stays 2 years, I think think Duke benefits more than anyone. Might Adam Silver being a Duke alum have anything to do with this? Hmmmm ;)

In terms of the best big man since Duncan, Anthony Davis currently holds that title, and I'm guessing he will continue to hold that title for some time. He's going to be a perennial MVP candidate in the NBA starting next year, if he can stay healthy. Davis is a beast.

Okafor is a bit taller as you say, but he also has more length and certainly appeared a bit more nimble. He you say Okafor is a bit more skilled, but he seems to have a much wider array of post moves than Sullinger did coming out of high school. Sullinger had a great college career and I don't mean to imply that Okafor will necessarily perform better than Sullinger next season (though I suspect he will be right there). However, Jahlil's long term pro potential certainly appears to be much better than Sullinger's.

[budwom]

Gross hyperbole and Duncan comparisons aside, I will say that Okafor has some of the best offensive moves for a big man coming out of high school
that I've seen in a long, long time. Defensively many bigs have been better...but Jahlil really does have an impressive array of post moves.

[OldPhiKap]

And from what I have read, he intends to play three years and get a graduate degree in addition to his undergrad.

Who knows if that will change, but he has at least articulated that plan.

[Olympic Fan]

Memory is a little fuzzy, but I recall that Tim Duncan wasn't that big of a deal coming in. I remember some paper (Winston-Salem Journal?) had a blurb comparing the incoming freshmen before his first year at Wake. He came in the same class as Rasheed Wallace. Most other players had lists of awards and accolades. His line went something like 'Center from the Virgin Islands'...

The beginning of his first year wasn't that notable, if I recall. But I think he developed into a decent player.

Look at his wikipedia page if you get a chance, particularly the Wake Forest part.

Duncan wasn't even the most celebrated recruit in Wake Forest's recruiting class. Odom thought Makhtar N'diaye -- yes, THAT Makhtar N'diage -- was going to be his stud. And Spanish forward Ricardo Peral was a celebrated foreign player. Duncan was an afterthought -- an unknown who got just one other college offer, from Providence. But Wake got in trouble for using a Greensboro janitor to help recruit N'diaye and the kid ended up at Michigan ... before transferring to UNC. Peral had to sit out like 10 games to start his career ... Odom was forced to play Duncan and after a terrible opening game, the kid had something like 18 rebounds in his second college game.

Emeka Okafor was also overlooked. He actually wanted to go to Georgia Tech, but Pail Hewitt had used his last scholarship on a celebrated big man -- was it Randolph Morris? -- then the kid got into trouble (and would up at Kentucky) and by the time Hewitt went back to Okafor, he was already headed to UConn. Hewitt settled for a big stiff from Australia (Luke Schenscher).

Okafor's freshman numbers were similar to Duncan's -- 7.8 ppgs, 9.0 rebounds ... Duncan was 9.8 ppg, 9.6 rebounds. Both became great players as sophomores.

As for the article quoted by the OP, there's one point nobody has brought up. You can't really say Jahlil is going to be the best center since Duncan, since until 2005, almost all the best centers went pro right out of high school -- Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler, Amare Stoudemire (who was listed as a center), Eddie Curry, Andrew Bynum.

The debate should be: Can Jahlil be the best freshman center since the NBA closed the straight to the NBA loophole. I limit the question to freshman performance since he's almost certainly a one-and-done.

What is his competition? I would suggest that Tyler Hansbrough and Jared Sullinger were excellent (I know neither is an NBA center ... neither is Duncan -- they were centers in college). Joakim Noah was nothing as a freshman (3.5 ppg, 2.7 rpg)

But the clearcut best freshman center in this century was Greg Oden. I know it's fashionable to dump on Oden now -- he did prove a pro flop because of injuries -- but as a freshman at Ohio State, he averaged 15.7 ppg, 9.6 rpb, blocked a ton of shots, made consensus first-team All-American and led OSU to the national title game. He was the No. 1 NBA pick -- ahead of No. 2 Kevin Durant.

If Jahlil is that good as a freshman, I will be VERY happy.

[OldPhiKap]

And from what I have read, he intends to play three years and get a graduate degree in addition to his undergrad.

Who knows if that will change, but he has at least articulated that plan.

My bad -- I was thinking of Obi. Please disregard.

(Although that is really good news about Obi!)

[jimsumner]

Duncan wasn't even the most celebrated recruit in Wake Forest's recruiting class. Odom thought Makhtar N'diaye -- yes, THAT Makhtar N'diage -- was going to be his stud. And Spanish forward Ricardo Peral was a celebrated foreign player. Duncan was an afterthought -- an unknown who got just one other college offer, from Providence. But Wake got in trouble for using a Greensboro janitor to help recruit N'diaye and the kid ended up at Michigan ... before transferring to UNC. Peral had to sit out like 10 games to start his career ... Odom was forced to play Duncan and after a terrible opening game, the kid had something like 18 rebounds in his second college game.

Emeka Okafor was also overlooked. He actually wanted to go to Georgia Tech, but Pail Hewitt had used his last scholarship on a celebrated big man -- was it Randolph Morris? -- then the kid got into trouble (and would up at Kentucky) and by the time Hewitt went back to Okafor, he was already headed to UConn. Hewitt settled for a big stiff from Australia (Luke Schenscher).

Okafor's freshman numbers were similar to Duncan's -- 7.8 ppgs, 9.0 rebounds ... Duncan was 9.8 ppg, 9.6 rebounds. Both became great players as sophomores.

As for the article quoted by the OP, there's one point nobody has brought up. You can't really say Jahlil is going to be the best center since Duncan, since until 2005, almost all the best centers went pro right out of high school -- Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler, Amare Stoudemire (who was listed as a center), Eddie Curry, Andrew Bynum.

The debate should be: Can Jahlil be the best freshman center since the NBA closed the straight to the NBA loophole. I limit the question to freshman performance since he's almost certainly a one-and-done.

What is his competition? I would suggest that Tyler Hansbrough and Jared Sullinger were excellent (I know neither is an NBA center ... neither is Duncan -- they were centers in college). Joakim Noah was nothing as a freshman (3.5 ppg, 2.7 rpg)

But the clearcut best freshman center in this century was Greg Oden. I know it's fashionable to dump on Oden now -- he did prove a pro flop because of injuries -- but as a freshman at Ohio State, he averaged 15.7 ppg, 9.6 rpb, blocked a ton of shots, made consensus first-team All-American and led OSU to the national title game. He was the No. 1 NBA pick -- ahead of No. 2 Kevin Durant.

If Jahlil is that good as a freshman, I will be VERY happy.

Agree that Oden has been unfairly dismissed.

But Anthony Davis was consensus national POY and led his team to an NCAA title. If Okafor is that good as a freshman, I will be VERY happy. :)

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Agree that Oden has been unfairly dismissed.

But Anthony Davis was consensus national POY and led his team to an NCAA title. If Okafor is that good as a freshman, I will be VERY happy. :)

Can we merge this thread with the "Jabari" thread and just roll all our hyperbole into one? :)

I'll be happy if Okafor has the same freshman year as the "other" Okafor... 8pts, 4 blocks, 9 rebounds...

[BD80]

Can we merge this thread with the "Jabari" thread and just roll all our hyperbole into one? :)

I'll be happy if Okafor has the same freshman year as the "other" Okafor... 8pts, 4 blocks, 9 rebounds...

I think I could 8 points and 9 rebounds if I were to play an entire season (getting starters minutes). The points would undoubtedly be free throws after having taken charges, and the rebounds would all have hit the floor first. Not sure I could come up with 4 (any) blocks.

[mccollums]

I think a more contemporary comparison would be Demarcus Cousins.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/96/year/2010/kentucky-wildcats

Cousins has a little more length ( 9'5" reach ) and equally quick feet, but Okafor probably jumps a little better.

Cousins was really productive considering his mpg (foul trouble). His attitude/body language/reputation was partially responsible for a lot of the quick whistles he received thus lowering his minutes.

Okafor's size is definitely an asset, but one thing you will notice (especially on the road) is the refs will let teams be REALLY physical with him. Normal fouls go unnoticed because the refs expect the big guy to handle the punishment. However Okafor will have the advantage of shooters around him, better spacing, and more experience (in comparison to Cousins).

My prediction for Okafor would be 29mpg, 16-18ppg... 11-12 rpg and around 2 bpg with around 58% from the field.

[roywhite]

Amile welcomes Jahlil (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq02uckD30M&list=UU9KCzNMmf0IRcEIsFDgt2bg)

Nice feature; Jahlil looking good.

[Wander]

Agree that Oden has been unfairly dismissed.

But Anthony Davis was consensus national POY and led his team to an NCAA title.

Davis wouldn't have been consensus national POY if he had happened to play in the same season as Kevin Durant, who has to rank up there with the best (if not the single best) freshman college basketball regular seasons of all time. And Oden led his team all the way to the title game, so not far behind Anthony Davis there either... but Oden's opponent in the title game was one of the best college basketball teams in recent history. Swap Oden's and Davis' opponents: I wouldn't take 2012 Kentucky over 2007 Florida, and I would take 2007 Ohio State over 2012 Kansas. I'd also argue that Kentucky had a little bit better players surrounding Davis than Ohio State had around Oden. Add it all up, and I agree with Olympic Fan that Oden gets the title of Best Freshman Center This Century. But it is close.

On a tangent, Oden and Davis have to both be on the All-Defense team this century, right? I don't know how to fill it out at the guard spots, but I think it starts with Oden, Davis, and Battier.

(Edit: I now see that I'm responding to posts from months ago. Oops)

[Saratoga2]

He hasn't played a single game at the college level. Expectations for him are high but why not wait and see how he performs for Duke before anointing him as the second coming. I think this sort of thread is mere speculation and is just a disservice to him and the team. I hope he will be great but am willing to wait and see from his actual performance.

[lotusland]

He hasn't played a single game at the college level. Expectations for him are high but why not wait and see how he performs for Duke before anointing him as the second coming. I think this sort of thread is mere speculation and is just a disservice to him and the team. I hope he will be great but am willing to wait and see from his actual performance.

That's what makes him so great:D!

[-bdbd]

Amile welcomes Jahlil (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq02uckD30M&list=UU9KCzNMmf0IRcEIsFDgt2bg)

Nice feature; Jahlil looking good.

Jahlil's NBA All-Star team included some guy named "Jordan" at the 2. Anybody know who this guy was? Must have played way back in the early days of the NBA, right?

:confused:

[mattman91]

Jahlil's NBA All-Star team included some guy named "Jordan" at the 2. Anybody know who this guy was? Must have played way back in the early days of the NBA, right?

:confused:

I hear he owns some soccer team now or something.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Chris Johnson did a run down of the top 25 college freshman. Okafor, not surprisingly, can in as numero uno. What surprised me is the description:


There were times last season when Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski opted to play Jabari Parker at center. This was a pragmatic choice: Duke was thin on the frontline, so Parker needed to play out of position sometimes. The Blue Devils won’t have any issues finding a big man to anchor their frontcourt this season. At 6-10 and 270 pounds, Okafor is a highly skilled post scorer who can work over both shoulders, utilizes drop steps and body fakes to get defenders off balance and can step out to hit jump shots. He has clear All-American potential and could be the best center to play at Duke in more than a decade. An NBA executive with more than 20 years of experience told Yahoo Sports last summer that Okafor is the most skilled high school center he’s ever scouted. Scout.com recruiting analyst Evan Daniels compared Okafor to two-time All-American Jared Sullinger and said last November that Okafor is the best post scorer he has seen play in high school since former Kentucky center DeMarcus Cousins. “He can clear out space, he's got great hands, really good touch around the basket, a variety of post moves,” Daniels told SI.com. It should come as no surprise, given the superlatives used to describe Okafor, that he is the projected No. 1 pick in DraftExpress’s 2015 mock draft.

More here: http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2014/07/10/top-25-recruits-karl-towns-jahlil-okafor-cliff-alexander

My quick thoughts on Okafor:

1) He'll be gone after a year. And I don't even think that's debatable. He's a) a big man who can score, b) an NBA ready body, and c) he has a ton of upside. Okafor, I'm gonna love your first and only year at Duke!

2) He will be our leading rebounder, leading shot blocker, leading FG%, but he won't be our leading scorer. I think that Sulaimon is gonna come up guns blazing and just torch our competition.

3) Okafor will follow the elite freshman path: ultra domination in the first 10 games, hit a freshman wall during late December/beginning of ACC, then regain form and slowly get better and better and better. Don't all elite freshman at Duke go through the same path?

4) Okafor will be praised for his passing by the end of the year. Once coaches know to double-team Okafor, he'll pass out. Okafor is a smart dude.

5) At the end of the day, I see Okafor as an upgrade to Boogie; maybe not the same low-post scorer, but a better passer, better defender (I hope. Duke OADs don't have a good track record of playing solid D), and significantly more sane.

[kAzE]

Chris Johnson did a run down of the top 25 college freshman. Okafor, not surprisingly, can in as numero uno. What surprised me is the description:



More here: http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2014/07/10/top-25-recruits-karl-towns-jahlil-okafor-cliff-alexander

My quick thoughts on Okafor:

1) He'll be gone after a year. And I don't even think that's debatable. He's a) a big man who can score, b) an NBA ready body, and c) he has a ton of upside. Okafor, I'm gonna love your first and only year at Duke!

2) He will be our leading rebounder, leading shot blocker, leading FG%, but he won't be our leading scorer. I think that Sulaimon is gonna come up guns blazing and just torch our competition.

3) Okafor will follow the elite freshman path: ultra domination in the first 10 games, hit a freshman wall during late December/beginning of ACC, then regain form and slowly get better and better and better. Don't all elite freshman at Duke go through the same path?

4) Okafor will be praised for his passing by the end of the year. Once coaches know to double-team Okafor, he'll pass out. Okafor is a smart dude.

5) At the end of the day, I see Okafor as an upgrade to Boogie; maybe not the same low-post scorer, but a better passer, better defender (I hope. Duke OADs don't have a good track record of playing solid D), and significantly more sane.

I'd love to share your optimism on Sulaimon, but I think the offense will be run through Okafor, and he will lead the team in scoring. Not that I don't think Sulaimon is capable of it, I just don't think that's the game plan, and he's also not in the same area code as Okafor in terms of talent. Rasheed should be 2nd or 3rd in scoring, though. He and Cook SHOULD be our best 3 point shooters next year, which will be important for creating space down low for Big Jah.

[kAzE]

More here: http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2014/07/10/top-25-recruits-karl-towns-jahlil-okafor-cliff-alexander


So, I checked out the rest of that list, and found this gem in the Tyus Jones section:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIRZe9EVL_8

Pretty impressive.

[Duke3517]

You are all asking for too much if you expect Okafor to be as good as Duncan or Davis. I'm not going to say he can't achieve that type of success but that is a height that is almost unrealistic. Only a certain few can reach to that limit.

Okafor might be that certain few but it is way to premature.

[lotusland]

I'd love to share your optimism on Sulaimon, but I think the offense will be run through Okafor, and he will lead the team in scoring. Not that I don't think Sulaimon is capable of it, I just don't think that's the game plan, and he's also not in the same area code as Okafor in terms of talent. Rasheed should be 2nd or 3rd in scoring, though. He and Cook SHOULD be our best 3 point shooters next year, which will be important for creating space down low for Big Jah.

Without bothering to consult boring past year statistics I'd rate Sheed's first 2 years higher than Nolan's so a Junior jump is certainly realistic. If we have a "big 3" this year I'd definitely pick Sheed to be in it.

[CameronBornAndBred]

1) He'll be gone after a year. And I don't even think that's debatable. He's a) a big man who can score, b) an NBA ready body, and c) he has a ton of upside. Okafor, I'm gonna love your first and only year at Duke!

There will still be a 97 page "will he enter the draft vigil" thread.

[flyingdutchdevil]

There will still be a 97 page "will he enter the draft vigil" thread.

Unfortunately, there will be. But I think DBR is finally understanding that these kids are really OAD. Hoping for the best is hoping that our talent gets replenished, not that the player stays.

But you're right. There will be 5-10 optimistic posters who think Okafor will stay. Like Jabari. Like Kyrie. Like Austin.

Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

[lotusland]

There will still be a 97 page "will he enter the draft vigil" thread.

Yes and he will consult with his parents and the coaching staff before announcing that, after careful consideration, he's decided to fulfill his dream of playing in the NBA. It's inevitable but it's also natural for guys like Parker and Okafor, if they're all in, to not walk off the court for the last time at Duke thinking "now I'm off to the NBA". But when reality sinks in he'll make the obvious choice.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I'd love to share your optimism on Sulaimon, but I think the offense will be run through Okafor, and he will lead the team in scoring. Not that I don't think Sulaimon is capable of it, I just don't think that's the game plan, and he's also not in the same area code as Okafor in terms of talent. Rasheed should be 2nd or 3rd in scoring, though. He and Cook SHOULD be our best 3 point shooters next year, which will be important for creating space down low for Big Jah.

I'm not disagreeing that our offense will flow through Okafor, but that doesn't always mean that that player will be the highest scorer. And I think this is one of those cases.

Sulaimon is our most diverse scorer: excellent 3pt shooting, good at getting to the rim (not great at finishing), nice mid-range, fast enough for fast breaks... he is a diverse player. He's also the only player who can take the ball to the hoop off the dribble. We don't know about Winslow's handle, and I'm not 100% sold on that skill for Tyus Jones. Cook can't really do it, and our slew of wings (M Jones, Allen, Semi) haven't showed anything to suggest they can effectively either.

Sulaimon is also a decent FT shooter (79% for his two years at Duke). I think he takes the most number of shots during the game as our frontline is huge (Okafor and Amile, finally playing his natural position, are going to clean glass) and is also one of two players given the green light for 3pt shooting (Cook being the other. I hope M Jones finds his 3pt stroke somewhere in his dorm room).

Regardless, the fact that we are having this debate is a very good thing. He can two players highly capable of leading the team in scoring. The best news is that a least one player is competent in defense (and I hope Okafor can hold his own). That's a huge plus.

[johnb]

Yes and he will consult with his parents and the coaching staff before announcing that, after careful consideration, he's decided to fulfill his dream of playing in the NBA. It's inevitable but it's also natural for guys like Parker and Okafor, if they're all in, to not walk off the court for the last time at Duke thinking "now I'm off to the NBA". But when reality sinks in he'll make the obvious choice.

It's not clear to me that you can generalize. Sure, if he's the runaway NPOY, it would be weird for him to not accept being the first pick in the draft, but stranger things have happened.

Injury, maturity, and (relative) mediocrity could also potentially delay his NBA entry. He might even really like school.

So, sure, the coaches should assume he's gone in regards to recruiting, but I kinda think we fans should just let him enjoy the ride.

[flyingdutchdevil]

It's not clear to me that you can generalize. Sure, if he's the runaway NPOY, it would be weird for him to not accept being the first pick in the draft, but stranger things have happened.

Injury, maturity, and (relative) mediocrity could also potentially delay his NBA entry. He might even really like school.

So, sure, the coaches should assume he's gone in regards to recruiting, but I kinda think we fans should just let him enjoy the ride.

No one is saying that we shouldn't let him enjoy the ride. He should, and he probably will. The reality of the situation is that there is a 99% chance he's gone after his freshman year. For every Marcus Smart, there are 50 Jabari Parkers.

We as fans should appreciate everything that Jahlil is going to bring with him this year. But we as fans should also be cognizant that he's a OAD.

[sagegrouse]

3) Okafor will follow the elite freshman path: ultra domination in the first 10 games, hit a freshman wall during late December/beginning of ACC, then regain form and slowly get better and better and better. Don't all elite freshman at Duke go through the same path?



Strange as it seems, hitting a wall is not nearly as bad as hitting a toe.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Strange as it seems, hitting a wall is not nearly as bad as hitting a toe.

:(

I loved that season because my favorite Duke player in the last 8 or so years crushed it. I hated that season because if Kyrie had been there the whole time, there is no doubt we would have been Final Four bound at the least.

Kyrie and Nolan just had no chemistry during the tournament. Tough to build chemistry in one month.

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

So long as the bar is being set so unrealistically low... I hear Okafor has Russell's hands, Iverson's feet, Allen's jumper and Olajuwon's dexterity... you know, realistic expectations that are in no way driven to obtain web page hits.

As an aside, I heard Grayson Allen can dunk from crosscourt like the players in the video game NBA Jam.

A spectacular dunk!

[Ggallagher]

As if there weren't enough hype on Okafor already, they did kind of an interesting story on him on PTI yesterday. The theme of the piece was that now the Duke coaching staff was talking Okafor up so much that they were going to create enormous pressure and unrealizable expectations for him - jeopardizing his chances to do well.

The first two minutes of the discussion was the typical hand-wringing, shouting, pleading, what are they thinking? type shouting match that's not too unusual on their program. But once they got that out of their systems, Wilbon closed with an interesting comment that was much quieter and almost a throw away line at the end.

He said, and I'll paraphrase as best as I recall, "But we all know how understated Coach K can be. If what's he's been saying is what he feels - then Wilt's back".

Looking forward to seeing him out on the floor in Cameron...

[freshmanjs]

Tim Duncan averaged 9.8 pts and 9.6 rbs per game as a freshman

[OldPhiKap]

I am wary of all the hype -- the Black Pigeon is still fresh in my mind -- but K has always said that if you're THAT good, there's no reason to downplay yourself. I do not know if the coaches are hyping or not, but if they are -- it's because K really thinks the kid is that good.

Hope he stays healthy, progresses well, and that our offense and defense all meshes as a full team regardless of who is on the floor.

[Ggallagher]

I am wary of all the hype -- the Black Pigeon is still fresh in my mind -- but K has always said that if you're THAT good, there's no reason to downplay yourself. I do not know if the coaches are hyping or not, but if they are -- it's because K really thinks the kid is that good.

Hope he stays healthy, progresses well, and that our offense and defense all meshes as a full team regardless of who is on the floor.

That was in fact the focus of the PTI storied I mentioned. They were very surprised that it was Coach K and his staff that were now doing all the talking. Their concern was that it just seemed to be generally a bad idea, and especially surprising coming directly from the team.

[OldPhiKap]

That was in fact the focus of the PTI storied I mentioned. They were very surprised that it was Coach K and his staff that were now doing all the talking. Their concern was that it just seemed to be generally a bad idea, and especially surprising coming directly from the team.

Thanks, that would be interesting if true. K does not do that often. As I typed, I recall an interview with K when he was hyping a player (I forget who -- some freshman in the last ten years or so) and his comment was basically that if you're that good, there is no reason to run from it. I wish I could remember which player it was.

If there is one thing that fans and foes can agree upon, K knows how to motivate people. He would not just throw this out there if he did not think it was true, AND that the kid would benefit from it.

[subzero02]

Thanks, that would be interesting if true. K does not do that often. As I typed, I recall an interview with K when he was hyping a player (I forget who -- some freshman in the last ten years or so) and his comment was basically that if you're that good, there is no reason to run from it. I wish I could remember which player it was.

If there is one thing that fans and foes can agree upon, K knows how to motivate people. He would not just throw this out there if he did not think it was true, AND that the kid would benefit from it.

Yeah, this is something that K wants Okafor to hear and maybe to a lesser extent, the rest of the team. Last year he helped set the tone for the season by stating our offense would center around Parker and Hood. He also said that playing time would be based on how well other players meshed with the 2 future first round picks.

[Saratoga2]

Yeah, this is something that K wants Okafor to hear and maybe to a lesser extent, the rest of the team. Last year he helped set the tone for the season by stating our offense would center around Parker and Hood. He also said that playing time would be based on how well other players meshed with the 2 future first round picks.

However good he is, he is taking a big step and will no doubt experience some difficulties adapting to the higher level of play. That said, we haven't had a front court player with his level of skills in my memory, so it will be enjoyable to see him grow into the high expectations that are being set for him. If he can stay on the court for 25 to 30 minutes a game without fouling out he could give Duke a new dimension and a path to the NCCA sweet 16 or better. Let the season begin.

[NSDukeFan]

Thanks, that would be interesting if true. K does not do that often. As I typed, I recall an interview with K when he was hyping a player (I forget who -- some freshman in the last ten years or so) and his comment was basically that if you're that good, there is no reason to run from it. I wish I could remember which player it was.

If there is one thing that fans and foes can agree upon, K knows how to motivate people. He would not just throw this out there if he did not think it was true, AND that the kid would benefit from it.

Might that have been Kyrie? If I remember correctly, coach K was not playing down how good he thought Kyrie was going to be and he turned out to be correct.

[cato]

Might that have been Kyrie? If I remember correctly, coach K was not playing down how good he thought Kyrie was going to be and he turned out to be correct.

The incoming frosh that I recall K talking up were Elton, Kyrie and Jabari. Not a bad track record.

[bbosbbos]

K said we could have got NC if Kyrie were not injured.


The incoming frosh that I recall K talking up were Elton, Kyrie and Jabari. Not a bad track record.

[lotusland]

Parrish and Norlander discussed Okafor at length on the most recent CBS eye on college basketball podcast. Both picked jahlil for preseason POY. According to Parrish he recently visited duke and neither the players , coaches or Okafor himself backed down from the hype. Parrish also has Tyus listed as 3rd team preseason AA. We'll see.

[MChambers]

I'll go with Coach K over the clowns on PTI.

[jimsumner]

K said we could have got NC if Kyrie were not injured.

He actually said he thought Duke would have gone undefeated had Kyrie not been injured.

K also said that the 2011-12 team would go through Austin Rivers before he had played his first game. So, he's not going to hide from this.

[Edouble]

The incoming frosh that I recall K talking up were Elton, Kyrie and Jabari. Not a bad track record.

I agree. I remember Coach K saying that Elton could do things that he had never seen any other player do, that he could "run up and down the court like a deer" with the size/power that he had. Kyrie and Jabari, being more recent, I think most people will remember that as well.

He talked up Kyle a lot. "Most all-around, complete game as an incoming freshman at Duke," I think?

He also talked up Shane quite a bit. I believe that the exact quote was "He will be one of the all time great defensive players to ever play in this conference". I know that is more career specific than immediate impact specific, but still, it's a mouthful.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I am appalled that Duke hasn't retired Okafor's jersey yet.

It is oversight? Or a motivational ploy by K?

[sagegrouse]

He actually said he thought Duke would have gone undefeated had Kyrie not been injured.

K also said that the 2011-12 team would go through Austin Rivers before he had played his first game. So, he's not going to hide from this.

Actually, it was Gary Williams who said, if Kyrie had not been injured, Duke would have gone undefeated.

[MCFinARL]

In the Zagsblog story noted on the front page today, the unnamed scout who accuses K of posturing seems to want to have it both ways:
It’s about him taking Cal on in recruiting. He can’t get all the players because Cal gets them all, so he’s just going to promote that I get the best one. That’s just all posturing, that’s all that is. Everybody has him as the No. 1 or No. 2 pick so he’s not really going out on a limb.

Okay, Cal gets all the players so K postures to hype his guy as No. 1, but in the meantime everybody thinks Okafor is No. 1 or No. 2 so "he's not really going out on a limb"?

1. If K has a guy who is universally predicted to go No. 1 or 2, then saying that he is good isn't really "posturing."
2. If K has a guy who is universally predicted to go No 1 or 2 (not to mention the rest of this year's freshman class), then Cal doesn't really get all the players.

Media folks like an easy-to-grasp story, and boiling college hoops recruiting down to K vs. Cal is an easy to grasp story, and one on which it is pretty easy for folks to develop a rooting interest. This scout, who is obviously right that Okafor has yet to be tested, and quite possibly also right that his skills are more polished than those of Towns, Cauley-Stein or Alexander (which is different from saying he is ultimately more talented, but may mean he will play better this season), has bought the story line on K vs. Cal without much reflection.

I know Coach K thinks pretty carefully about what he says to the media, and some of his remarks are designed to motivate his players, among other things. But I don't really buy hyping Okafor as part of a recruiting war with Cal. For one thing, if he is significantly overstating Okafor's talents, the move would likely backfire, because people would see an Okafor who is not as good as claimed, and his draft stock might actually drop.

[hood7]

"He’ll get tested. He’ll get Kentucky and them and we’ll find out. But it’s just early propaganda. Coach K has gone out of his way to promote Jabari Parker, it’s all about him having the No. 1 pick. It’s about him taking Cal on in recruiting. He can’t get all the players because Cal gets them all, so he’s just going to promote that I get the best one. That’s just all posturing, that’s all that is. Everybody has him as the No. 1 or No. 2 pick so he’s not really going out on a limb. He’s more refined than a lot of the picks. He’s more refined than Towns because Towns is raw. He’s more refined than [Willie] Cauley-Stein because Cauley-Stein is raw. Same with Myles Turner and Cliff Alexander. That’s the one thing that Okafor has, he’s got an offensive game."

So...to sum up... It's just self-aggrandizing propaganda for K to say that Okafor is the best. Although it is true that Okafor is the best. Ok, Mr. Anonymous Scout Who Is Probably Not Calipari, you're logic is airtight.

[bbosbbos]

I have stated many many times, with all talents Kentucky Fried Chicken University got in the last few years I have won NC every year. I am way way better than Calimaripaliguligili.



"He’ll get tested. He’ll get Kentucky and them and we’ll find out. But it’s just early propaganda. Coach K has gone out of his way to promote Jabari Parker, it’s all about him having the No. 1 pick. It’s about him taking Cal on in recruiting. He can’t get all the players because Cal gets them all, so he’s just going to promote that I get the best one. That’s just all posturing, that’s all that is. Everybody has him as the No. 1 or No. 2 pick so he’s not really going out on a limb. He’s more refined than a lot of the picks. He’s more refined than Towns because Towns is raw. He’s more refined than [Willie] Cauley-Stein because Cauley-Stein is raw. Same with Myles Turner and Cliff Alexander. That’s the one thing that Okafor has, he’s got an offensive game."

So...to sum up... It's just self-aggrandizing propaganda for K to say that Okafor is the best. Although it is true that Okafor is the best. Ok, Mr. Anonymous Scout Who Is Probably Not Calipari, you're logic is airtight.

[COYS]

I actually think that it is wrong for the guys at PTI to say that it is rare for K to talk highly of an incoming freshman. As was mentioned before, in recent years he talked up Kyle, Kyrie, and Jabari. His praise of Austin was more measured, as he complimented his abilities, said the offense would run through him, but also said that he would have some adjustment to make. In all four cases, K was right on. Kyle was an incredibly well-rounded freshman. Kyrie was a special player and deserved to be handed the keys to offense from day one. Jabari was an absolutely force on offense with an incredible array of NBA scoring moves. Going back farther, he was right on about Elton and Shane, as well.

There is a lot of hype surrounding Jahlil, but it's not like the hype started with the Duke staff. Scouts have been saying for a few years now that Jahlil is perhaps the most polished offensive post player to come out of the high school ranks since Tim Duncan. Whether or not that's actually true remains to be seen, but it's not like Jahlil is some unknown quantity. Even before these quotes from the Duke staff emerged, Jahlil had already been voted preseason All American or POY by many pundits.

To me, the staff's extremely complimentary quotes on Jahlil's abilities are a non-story. They are neither rare (K never hesitates to praise special players, and Duke has been lucky enough to have a fair number of those over the years) nor are they out of line with what other scouts, including many NBA scouts, have been saying. In addition, K's track record on making bold predictions for freshman is pretty dang good. Kyrie and Elton, two of the most praised stars, ended up being number one picks (Elton after his sophomore year, but who knows what would have happened if he hadn't been injured during his first season?). Jabari ended up wowing the nation with his offensive prowess and became the number 2 pick. (It should also be noted that K actually did criticize Jabari a little last offseason, saying that he needed to get his explosiveness back after recovering from his injury and that he needed to dedicate himself to staying in shape . . . so K was very aware of the two primary questionmarks that scouts have for Jabari's NBA future -- his athletic ceiling and his conditioning). Kyle went on to become perhaps the best all around player for Duke since Shane.

[freshmanjs]

i wish DBR would stop putting this type of Calipari criticism out there



What's he done with overwhelming talent? Not nearly as much as Kentucky fans might have hoped. He can have the best recruiting class in the country and still end up losing early in the NIT.

He's done a ton with the talent, and it would be crazy for KY fans to have expected more. Since he got there:

2010 - #1 seed, elite 8
2011 - #4 seed, final 4
2012 - #1 seed, champs
2013 - NIT
2014 - #8 seed, final 2

and if you want to include Cal's last 4 years at Memphis, you get another final 2, 2 elite 8s and a sweet 16.

he's done as well or better as any coach in college basketball (you could make a case for 1 or 2 being better over this time period, including Coach K). so, why say that he hasn't? it just reduces credibility.

[jimsumner]

Actually, it was Gary Williams who said, if Kyrie had not been injured, Duke would have gone undefeated.

K said it.

I know. I was in the room.

And it was something he wanted to say. It was after a win in the 2013 season, I believe. He was asked a question about that team's chemistry and responded with the comments about Kyrie's injury. So, he wasn't ambushed. It was something he had thought about and something he felt the need to share.

[Wander]

i wish DBR would stop putting this type of Calipari criticism out there



He's done a ton with the talent, and it would be crazy for KY fans to have expected more. Since he got there:


Yeah, every once in a while, the front page of DBR just says something incredibly stupid. Since Calipari got there, Kentucky has had the best NCAA tournament results of any of the ~350 division 1 programs. That obviously doesn't mean he's a better coach than K or anything, but he's clearly doing a very good job at UK.

[Kedsy]

Yeah, every once in a while, the front page of DBR just says something incredibly stupid. Since Calipari got there, Kentucky has had the best NCAA tournament results of any of the ~350 division 1 programs. That obviously doesn't mean he's a better coach than K or anything, but he's clearly doing a very good job at UK.

I agree. Calipari may not play by the rules when it comes to recruiting, and he appears to have a fairly self-serving personality, but in my opinion he's always been a good basketball coach.

And on the subject of this thread, I don't think it's a non-story that Coach K is pumping Jahlil up to the extent he has. It means we really have something special with this young man.

I also think the focus on Jahlil in some ways is taking some pressure off Tyus, and to a lesser extent Justise. They don't have to press to be "all that," because Jahlil is all that.

The season should be a fun ride.

[tbyers11]

i wish DBR would stop putting this type of Calipari criticism out there



He's done a ton with the talent, and it would be crazy for KY fans to have expected more. Since he got there:

2010 - #1 seed, elite 8
2011 - #4 seed, final 4
2012 - #1 seed, champs
2013 - NIT
2014 - #8 seed, final 2

and if you want to include Cal's last 4 years at Memphis, you get another final 2, 2 elite 8s and a sweet 16.

he's done as well or better as any coach in college basketball (you could make a case for 1 or 2 being better over this time period, including Coach K). so, why say that he hasn't? it just reduces credibility.

I don't think Calipari is a bad coach. However, if one shot against Wichita State goes differently, Calipari would have coached consecutive #1 recruiting classes to an NIT and a second round loss. The success of a season, rightfully so, is measured by NCAA tourney success and the "miracle" run by UK last year makes everyone forget about what has been two straight woefully underachieving regular seasons by UK. It will be interesting to see how the sophomore studs that remained at UK this year mesh with the superstar freshmen.

[Kedsy]

The success of a season, rightfully so, is measured by NCAA tourney success...

I'd argue that it isn't so "rightful," but people certainly do seem to think this way.

[Troublemaker]

I actually think that it is wrong for the guys at PTI to say that it is rare for K to talk highly of an incoming freshman. As was mentioned before, in recent years he talked up Kyle, Kyrie, and Jabari.
...

To me, the staff's extremely complimentary quotes on Jahlil's abilities are a non-story. They are neither rare (K never hesitates to praise special players, and Duke has been lucky enough to have a fair number of those over the years) nor are they out of line with what other scouts, including many NBA scouts, have been saying. In addition, K's track record on making bold predictions for freshman is pretty dang good.

Yeah, in addition to being honest assessments that have been accurate in hindsight, I think Coach K praises these freshmen publicly to encourage them not to defer to older players. Freshmen sometimes have to wait their turn or feel like they should wait their turn. For example, according to MaxPreps (http://www.maxpreps.com/high-schools/whitney-young-dolphins-(chicago,il)/basketball-winter-10-11/stats.htm), Jahlil only averaged 5 ppg as a high school freshman. That obviously can't happen this season.

Duke wants to build its offense around Jahlil and have him be our leading scorer and a dominant college player this season. The odds of that happening improve if he's thinking like a star from Day One. Sometimes you have a jewel and you want to keep it out of sight; in this case, it makes sense for Duke to display our jewel proudly and hope he shines bright.

[bbosbbos]

Can you show their recruiting ranking side by side? The talent in their recruiting class is much better than any other school. Light years better. With that much talent I think everyone can do better than the cheater.


i wish DBR would stop putting this type of Calipari criticism out there



He's done a ton with the talent, and it would be crazy for KY fans to have expected more. Since he got there:

2010 - #1 seed, elite 8
2011 - #4 seed, final 4
2012 - #1 seed, champs
2013 - NIT
2014 - #8 seed, final 2

and if you want to include Cal's last 4 years at Memphis, you get another final 2, 2 elite 8s and a sweet 16.

he's done as well or better as any coach in college basketball (you could make a case for 1 or 2 being better over this time period, including Coach K). so, why say that he hasn't? it just reduces credibility.

[Bluegrassdevil1]

You have to love the irony of USA Today proclaiming Duncan the best player of "our" era yesterday, and a discussion is currently being made about Okafor as comparable to the Big Fundamental.

As was stated previously, Duncan's freshmen scoring was not spectacular, but 9.8 is certainly not displeasing when coupled with the following numbers:

MPG - 30.2 = everyone should be thrilled if Okafor met that number.

FG% - .545. = not an eye-popping number, but again, more than acceptable. A. Davis: 62.3 as a comparison.

BLK - 3.8 (124 total) = an amazing number for anyone, anywhere, at any time. A.Davis: 4.7 (186 total) as a comparison.

Personal Fouls - 2.5 = that's the most important number to me. Okafor averaging a minimal risk of disqualification would be HUGE.

Rebounds - 9.6 (317 total) = just short of ten on rebounds, with points barely short of ten, would still be wonderful for Okafor. I suspect no Duke fan would be unhappy with Okafor just missing a double-double average. A.Davis 10.4 (415 total) as comparison.

If Okafor presented stats anywhere similar to freshmen Duncan, he would easily exceed freshmen S. Williams, all three Plumlees, obviously Brand, and would be fairly comparable to Laettner.

All and all, if Okafor finishes with numbers comparable to Duncan or Laettner, I would be thrilled.

[jimsumner]

You have to love the irony of USA Today proclaiming Duncan the best player of "our" era yesterday, and a discussion is currently being made about Okafor as comparable to the Big Fundamental.

As was stated previously, Duncan's freshmen scoring was not spectacular, but 9.8 is certainly not displeasing when coupled with the following numbers:

MPG - 30.2 = everyone should be thrilled if Okafor met that number.

FG% - .545. = not an eye-popping number, but again, more than acceptable. A. Davis: 62.3 as a comparison.

BLK - 3.8 (124 total) = an amazing number for anyone, anywhere, at any time. A.Davis: 4.7 (186 total) as a comparison.

Personal Fouls - 2.5 = that's the most important number to me. Okafor averaging a minimal risk of disqualification would be HUGE.

Rebounds - 9.6 (317 total) = just short of ten on rebounds, with points barely short of ten, would still be wonderful for Okafor. I suspect no Duke fan would be unhappy with Okafor just missing a double-double average. A.Davis 10.4 (415 total) as comparison.

If Okafor presented stats anywhere similar to freshmen Duncan, he would easily exceed freshmen S. Williams, all three Plumlees, obviously Brand, and would be fairly comparable to Laettner.

All and all, if Okafor finishes with numbers comparable to Duncan or Laettner, I would be thrilled.

Laettner averaged 9.1 points and 4.9 rebounds per game as a freshman, well short of Duncan's freshman stats and well short of what anyone would deem acceptable for Okafor.

[freshmanjs]

I don't think Calipari is a bad coach. However, if one shot against Wichita State goes differently, Calipari would have coached consecutive #1 recruiting classes to an NIT and a second round loss. The success of a season, rightfully so, is measured by NCAA tourney success and the "miracle" run by UK last year makes everyone forget about what has been two straight woefully underachieving regular seasons by UK. It will be interesting to see how the sophomore studs that remained at UK this year mesh with the superstar freshmen.

i see it differently. last year's ky team improved significantly over the course of the season to the point where they were clearly very dangerous entering the tournament. isn't that exactly what you'd want a well coached team of highly recruited freshman to do? why does he get no credit for getting the team to improve?

that Wichita State team was very good. there would have been no shame in losing to them in a close game.

also, some would say (i would NOT) that coach k should be equally panned for coaching a #2 and #4 recruiting class (each with one of the very top players) to 1st round ncaa losses. this criticism of Cal is equally unfair.

criticism of Cal's style, past cheating, current sliminess -- all that is reasonable to go after. a claim that he's not succeeded on court? not even close.

[camion]

I'll reserve judgement until after the Fairfield game.

[tbyers11]

i see it differently. last year's ky team improved significantly over the course of the season to the point where they were clearly very dangerous entering the tournament. isn't that exactly what you'd want a well coached team of highly recruited freshman to do? why does he get no credit for getting the team to improve?

that Wichita State team was very good. there would have been no shame in losing to them in a close game.

also, some would say (i would NOT) that coach k should be equally panned for coaching a #2 and #4 recruiting class (each with one of the very top players) to 1st round ncaa losses. this criticism of Cal is equally unfair.

criticism of Cal's style, past cheating, current sliminess -- all that is reasonable to go after. a claim that he's not succeeded on court? not even close.

I agree that a freshman-dominated team should improve over the course of the season, but I disagree that their late season results showed that they were clearly very dangerous entering the tournament. Their last 5 regular season games were a one point OT win vs LSU at home, an OT loss vs Arkansas at home, a 5 point loss at an awful South Carolina team, a seven point win at home vs Alabama, and getting blown out at Florida. They did make it to the SEC tourney final by beating bad LSU and UGa teams and almost beat UF in the final. Maybe this was a sign of "putting it all together" which led to their play in the NCAA tourney. My opinion was that most pundits that gave them a chance to beat Wichita St did so bc they still thought WSU was overrated and that the sheer talent of UK may prevail and not because UK was playing particularly well.

You have to give them credit for winning the games in the NCAAs, but as I previously said one made shot by WSU or a missed three by UK against Louisville and UK was a 2nd round or Sweet 16 loser. I think that performance would have been viewed by most as meh and by the UK faithful as disappointing.

[freshmanjs]

I agree that a freshman-dominated team should improve over the course of the season, but I disagree that their late season results showed that they were clearly very dangerous entering the tournament. Their last 5 regular season games were a one point OT win vs LSU at home, an OT loss vs Arkansas at home, a 5 point loss at an awful South Carolina team, a seven point win at home vs Alabama, and getting blown out at Florida. They did make it to the SEC tourney final by beating bad LSU and UGa teams and almost beat UF in the final. Maybe this was a sign of "putting it all together" which led to their play in the NCAA tourney. My opinion was that most pundits that gave them a chance to beat Wichita St did so bc they still thought WSU was overrated and that the sheer talent of UK may prevail and not because UK was playing particularly well.

You have to give them credit for winning the games in the NCAAs, but as I previously said one made shot by WSU or a missed three by UK against Louisville and UK was a 2nd round or Sweet 16 loser. I think that performance would have been viewed by most as meh and by the UK faithful as disappointing.

Fair enough. Important to note that *every* program has had "meh" ncaa tournament appearances in the relevant time period. so, if the expectation is that Cal should be the only coach to avoid that and if he fails to be the only one then he "has not done much with the talent at KY" then so be it. it seems unreasonable to me...

[moonpie23]

i was absolutely flabbergasted to see UK make the finals....they were struggling the entire year.....to say that they improved all year seems a bit of a stretch....more like they pulled it together at the end....(which i'll take ANY year)


i still don't like Cal....

[rsvman]

Fair enough. Important to note that *every* program has had "meh" ncaa tournament appearances in the relevant time period. so, if the expectation is that Cal should be the only coach to avoid that and if he fails to be the only one then he "has not done much with the talent at KY" then so be it. it seems unreasonable to me...

OK, but why does he get a pass for missing the tournament entirely? And not only did they go to the NIT, they lost in the FIRST ROUND of the freakin' NIT!

Coach K has two first-round losses in the NCAA tournament over the past 3 years and he's taking plenty of flack for it. But when people talk about Calipari, they point out his NCAA successes and then completely ignore the fact that in one of the past 4 years, he wasn't even able to get his team to the NCAA tournament in the first place. You can't LOSE a first-round NCAA game if you don't make it to the first-round, right?

If Coach K had missed the NCAA tournament entirely, and the Duke team had compounded that insult by losing in the very first round of the NIT, we would never hear the end ot it. But if Calipari does it, it's OK?

[freshmanjs]

OK, but why does he get a pass for missing the tournament entirely? And not only did they go to the NIT, they lost in the FIRST ROUND of the freakin' NIT!

Coach K has two first-round losses in the NCAA tournament over the past 3 years and he's taking plenty of flack for it. But when people talk about Calipari, they point out his NCAA successes and then completely ignore the fact that in one of the past 4 years, he wasn't even able to get his team to the NCAA tournament in the first place. You can't LOSE a first-round NCAA game if you don't make it to the first-round, right?

If Coach K had missed the NCAA tournament entirely, and the Duke team had compounded that insult by losing in the very first round of the NIT, we would never hear the end ot it. But if Calipari does it, it's OK?

what do you mean by "get a pass?" he missed the tournament once and made 3 final 4s and won a championship in the last 5 years. that is a great record. almost every program would trade their post season record for that one. not sure what i'm missing. i'm not ignoring anything. from where i sit, of course what Cal has done *on the court* is "OK". why wouldn't it be?

[OldPhiKap]

Whether you like or dislike Cal, his results speak for themselves. Not sure how anyone could seriously argue that he is not in the top echelon of college coaches.

If you want to argue about how he does it, well -- that may be a different matter.

And for the record, I have always found John Chaney to be a very good judge of character.

[brevity]

OK, but why does he get a pass for missing the tournament entirely? And not only did they go to the NIT, they lost in the FIRST ROUND of the freakin' NIT!

Everyone saw that Mercer beat Duke. Almost NO ONE saw that Robert Morris beat Kentucky.

That's the difference between the NCAA Tournament and Postseason NIT. Winning and losing in the former is a headline; winning and losing in the latter is a footnote. I don't know if Coach Calipari "gets a pass" for the NIT season so much as he receives the opposite of attention.

[mccollums]

Every season there are a few recruits that should have an additional star or asterisk. These are the type of recruits that are going to come in and contribute at a high level. Whether it's their skill level or their physical superiority ( or both ). Last season there were 3-4 that were widely considered to be "#1" type talents. Wiggins, Parker, Randle. They all lived up to the hype for the most part. You can say Wiggins was a little bit of a disappointment, but he still had a solid year. Last season had a dark horse that was under ranked too, Joel Embiid.

Okafor IS that type of a player. I expect him to have a better year statistically (as a freshman) then most of the greats he's compared to. That doesn't mean he's going to be better then them in the NBA - but he seems to be ready physically and on a team that will utilize him well. I'm focusing more on offense though, since I believe he will put up 16pts 10reb as a minimum. Nobody is going to have an answer for him unless they double. Defensively I don't expect him to average 3-4 blocks a game. I'm guessing a solid 1.5 to 2 though. The biggest struggle for most freshman big men is foul trouble. Anthony Davis is one of the few freshman big man that didn't get into foul trouble that often. He did get a star's whistle though.

As for the UK talk.... I'm a UK fan and the turning point last season was the blowout at Florida last season. Florida played VERY physical defense that game. They basically showed us how to "foul with the body" and keep our hands straight during the process. I remember Cal saying that after the game too. After that, and especially in the SEC/NCAA tournament we received a better whistle. ESPECIALLY in the NCAA tournament. I don't watch a ton of ACC games so I don't know how your conference games are officiated, but the SEC road games are ridiculous when it comes to the refs giving the home team the better whistle. Our kids were utterly confused some games when it comes to how to compete on the road. Take a better understanding of how to defend plus better shooting and that explains the "turnaround" the UK kids made.

UK's returning players were a little over ranked coming out of high school. The Harrison's will be better (but not dominant) this season but I think we can all agree they were not top 10 talents coming out of high school. Poythress, Willie Cauley-Stein, and Marcus Lee are all incredible athletes but not skilled basketball players. Dakari Johnson was probably ranked a little higher then he should have been too. WCauleyS was a top 50 kid though so his high eval was pretty close. Dakari has probably helped his stock the most by coming back from what I can tell from the Bahama's and the UK Pro day ( he measured pretty well ).

I expect this years UK team to be better then last years NCAA tournament team. However, I don't think we will have the most talented starting 5 in college basketball. Arizona, Kansas, or Duke might have that title. Team chemistry will be challenging for all of the above since Freshman will be in their starting lineups.

one last thing.. UK was on their way to two subpar seasons before the NCAA run. That is true. Remember though, the previous year's subpar season was amplified by a late injury to their best player.

[roywhite]

Okafor IS that type of a player. I expect him to have a better year statistically (as a freshman) then most of the greats he's compared to. That doesn't mean he's going to be better then them in the NBA - but he seems to be ready physically and on a team that will utilize him well. I'm focusing more on offense though, since I believe he will put up 16pts 10reb as a minimum. Nobody is going to have an answer for him unless they double. Defensively I don't expect him to average 3-4 blocks a game. I'm guessing a solid 1.5 to 2 though. The biggest struggle for most freshman big men is foul trouble. Anthony Davis is one of the few freshman big man that didn't get into foul trouble that often. He did get a star's whistle though.

As for the UK talk.... I'm a UK fan and the turning point last season was the blowout at Florida last season. I expect this years UK team to be better then last years NCAA tournament team. However, I don't think we will have the most talented starting 5 in college basketball. Arizona, Kansas, or Duke might have that title. Team chemistry will be challenging for all of the above since Freshman will be in their starting lineups....
one last thing.. UK was on their way to two subpar seasons before the NCAA run. That is true. Remember though, the previous year's subpar season was amplified by a late injury to their best player.

Good stuff there, mccollums. Appreciate the perspective of a knowledgeable, reasonable UK fan.

[Zeb]

All and all, if Okafor finishes with numbers comparable to Duncan or Laettner, I would be thrilled.

I think comparing college stats from 25 years ago and today's one and done era is comparing apples and oranges, as much more talent stayed 2+ years so it was more difficult for freshmen to get minutes and to put up big numbers in those minutes. Am I alone in that belief? Anyone know of someone who's attempted to quantify this from an advanced statistics perspective?

[OldPhiKap]

Every season there are a few recruits that should have an additional star or asterisk. These are the type of recruits that are going to come in and contribute at a high level. Whether it's their skill level or their physical superiority ( or both ). Last season there were 3-4 that were widely considered to be "#1" type talents. Wiggins, Parker, Randle. They all lived up to the hype for the most part. You can say Wiggins was a little bit of a disappointment, but he still had a solid year. Last season had a dark horse that was under ranked too, Joel Embiid.

Okafor IS that type of a player. I expect him to have a better year statistically (as a freshman) then most of the greats he's compared to. That doesn't mean he's going to be better then them in the NBA - but he seems to be ready physically and on a team that will utilize him well. I'm focusing more on offense though, since I believe he will put up 16pts 10reb as a minimum. Nobody is going to have an answer for him unless they double. Defensively I don't expect him to average 3-4 blocks a game. I'm guessing a solid 1.5 to 2 though. The biggest struggle for most freshman big men is foul trouble. Anthony Davis is one of the few freshman big man that didn't get into foul trouble that often. He did get a star's whistle though.

As for the UK talk.... I'm a UK fan and the turning point last season was the blowout at Florida last season. Florida played VERY physical defense that game. They basically showed us how to "foul with the body" and keep our hands straight during the process. I remember Cal saying that after the game too. After that, and especially in the SEC/NCAA tournament we received a better whistle. ESPECIALLY in the NCAA tournament. I don't watch a ton of ACC games so I don't know how your conference games are officiated, but the SEC road games are ridiculous when it comes to the refs giving the home team the better whistle. Our kids were utterly confused some games when it comes to how to compete on the road. Take a better understanding of how to defend plus better shooting and that explains the "turnaround" the UK kids made.

UK's returning players were a little over ranked coming out of high school. The Harrison's will be better (but not dominant) this season but I think we can all agree they were not top 10 talents coming out of high school. Poythress, Willie Cauley-Stein, and Marcus Lee are all incredible athletes but not skilled basketball players. Dakari Johnson was probably ranked a little higher then he should have been too. WCauleyS was a top 50 kid though so his high eval was pretty close. Dakari has probably helped his stock the most by coming back from what I can tell from the Bahama's and the UK Pro day ( he measured pretty well ).

I expect this years UK team to be better then last years NCAA tournament team. However, I don't think we will have the most talented starting 5 in college basketball. Arizona, Kansas, or Duke might have that title. Team chemistry will be challenging for all of the above since Freshman will be in their starting lineups.

one last thing.. UK was on their way to two subpar seasons before the NCAA run. That is true. Remember though, the previous year's subpar season was amplified by a late injury to their best player.


Good stuff there, mccollums. Appreciate the perspective of a knowledgeable, reasonable UK fan.

Absolutely agreed, I appreciate the perspective and hope you post as the season progresses. See y'all in the finals. And Go to Hell, CAROLINA -- we can probably all agree on that!

[subzero02]

Good stuff there, mccollums. Appreciate the perspective of a knowledgeable, reasonable UK fan.

Yeah, I'm pretty amazed too. Jk, I sat in the UK section for their 2011 NCAA tournament games against Princeton and West Virginia, there are some .... Some out there.