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theAlaskanBear
04-19-2014, 02:36 PM
First game is Toronto raptors vs Brooklyn nets. A good game so far, but Mason has been ineffective and in foul trouble. And as I write this he scores his first bucket but gets his 5th foul. 334 left in the third.

sagegrouse
04-19-2014, 02:41 PM
Mods, feel free to move/merge this thread, but I figured we could use this.


First game is Toronto raptors vs Brooklyn nets. A good game so far, but Mason has been ineffective and in foul trouble. And as I write this he scores his first bucket but gets his 5th foul. 334 left in the third.

Announcers did say, "The Nets will miss Mason when he goes out," followed shortly by "the energy level really goes up when he [Mason] is in the game."

nmduke2001
04-19-2014, 02:43 PM
Announcers did say, "The Nets will miss Mason when he goes out," followed shortly by "the energy level really goes up when he [Mason] is in the game."

Mason needs to stay out of foul trouble. Brooklyn is dominating when he is on the court.

theAlaskanBear
04-19-2014, 02:53 PM
Mason is playing good D and battling for rebounds, he matches up with Toronto/valanciunas well, but he doesn't help them on the bench. Nice to she they have the shot clocks back. Would hate to see a shotclockgate ;)

Next game is Golden State Warriors vs the LA Clippers at 330 on ABC.

theAlaskanBear
04-19-2014, 03:15 PM
Looks like Brooklyn will squeak by. Shame to see Hansbrough lose to Plumlee ;)

Now....to LA and watching JJ Redick be relevant in the postseason finally.

kAzE
04-19-2014, 05:32 PM
JJ is doin work . . . 22 points already and it's still 3rd qtr

left_hook_lacey
04-20-2014, 07:40 AM
Didn't see a thread started on this, but the NBA playoffs are underway. So far, Duke and the ACC have been represented well.

JJ had a nice game in a losing effort for the Clippers finishing with 22 points. Even more impressive is the fact he shot 72% from the field with 5 of his 11 attempts from 3.

HWNWSNM came up big in spots for the Warriors. There was an awesome 3-4 minutes of basketball early in the 3rd where he, JJ, and Steph Curry were draining everything they put up every trip down the floor. With Paul running the point for the Clippers and Curry for the Warriors, this is going to be an awesome series and a great chance for JJ to show off. It's already off and running on both accounts. I think JJ is an awesome fit for this team.

Jeff Teague shredded the floundering Pacers last night. They simply could not find a way to keep him out of the lane. Maybe put George on him and make someone else beat you?


And call me crazy, but I'm really excited about the Heat/Bobcats game today. A true David v. Goliath with plenty of Duke blue for your viewing pleasure. I really love Shane, but I hope the Bobcats can pull of the miracle. I'd love to see the Bobcats(soon to be Hornets again, and all will be right in the world) get some good exposure on the national stage with G and McRoberts leading the way. I'm just tired of the decision and everything that came with it. I'm ready for that team to be split up and new rivalries started. I'd love the story line if James went back to Cleveland to try and win them a title.

Enjoy your Easter Holiday, and the playoffs!

theAlaskanBear
04-20-2014, 07:59 AM
Day 1 Roundup:

New Jersey Nets def. Toronto Raptors -- a close, fun game to watch with a special oddity: all stadium shot clocks ceased to function, even the backups, and they played the last half with the PA announcer announcing the shot clock from a scorer table stopwatch. Mason was in foul trouble nearly the entire game and only played 11 minutes, scoring 2 points and grabbing 3 rebounds.

Golden State Warriors def. LA Clippers -- Foul trouble by Blake Griffin bailed the Bogut-less Warriors out. Good games from CP3 and JJ could not stop them. Redick had 22 points on 8-11 shooting from the floor.

Atlanta Hawks def. Indiana Pacers -- the reeling Pacers continue to reel. Elton Brand played 20 minutes and put up 5 rebounds and 3 blocked shots. Love the way the Hawks played in this one, stealing home court from Indiana. I hope they can keep it up!

OKC Thunder def. Memphis Grizzlies -- OKC came out hot, and wrapped up the first without too much difficulty, although Memphis played much of the second half within striking distance, they just couldn't get anything reliably going.

Day 2 Preview:

Dallas Mavericks vs SA Spurs at 1pm on TNT
Miami Heat vs Charlotte McBobcats at 3:30 on ABC (Battier, Henderson, McRoberts)
Chicago Bulls vs Washington Wizards at 7pm on TNT (Boozer, Dunleavy)
Portland Trailblazers vs Houston Rockets at 9:30 on TNT

pfrduke
04-20-2014, 11:01 PM
The Horbobnetcats may have lost, but McRoberts had the dunk of the first weekend when he posterized the Birdman.

Billy Dat
04-21-2014, 09:28 AM
The Horbobnetcats may have lost, but McRoberts had the dunk of the first weekend when he posterized the Birdman.

This was my favorite tweet related to that dunk:

@Dameshek, "Even with Jesus Shuttlesworth on the same floor, Josh McRoberts wins the award for showing the most Easter spirit." (in reference to McRoberts' 'Jesus'-like hair and beard)

I also want to mention the very moving moment when Craig Sager Jr., standing in for his ailing (Acute Myeloid Leukemia) father, interviewed famously surly and abrupt (during in-game interviews only) Gregg Popovich, and the coach showed his true generous self:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2035915-gregg-popovich-shows-softer-side-by-wishing-craig-sager-well-in-interview

As for the games, I saw bits and pieces of a bunch of different stuff. I only saw the 4th quarter of the Heat v Bobcats and was astonished at how horrendous Al Jefferson looked until I heard that he'd gotten hurt. If he's not effective then they are probably done. The Heat also buried them with some hot shooting. I was bummed to see Shane not get any 4th quarter run, but I understand that the rotation has been pretty fluid outside the primary players. Gerald wasn't asserting himself much, but it is amazing what a huge part of the team Josh is, they run tons of the offense through him.

As for the Nets, it was classic to see Pierce hit all the big shots in the final few minutes. We'll see if they have enough in the tank to make a run.

Other than that, I only saw bits and pieces, but I am glad we've got this thread up and running and I looked forward to chopping it up with you guys for the next two months. Alaska, the only criticism I have of one of your original posts is that JJ played really meaningful minutes in the Magic run to the NBA Finals a few years ago - he was a beast checking Ray Allen and made major contributions that that squad.

rsvman
04-21-2014, 09:44 AM
Mountain Man McBob was surprisingly effective from beyond the arc.

Maybe my memory is fading, but did he knock down that shot with any kind of regularity when he was at Duke? My memories of Josh were mostly of spectacular alley-oop dunks.

CDu
04-21-2014, 10:00 AM
Mountain Man McBob was surprisingly effective from beyond the arc.

Maybe my memory is fading, but did he knock down that shot with any kind of regularity when he was at Duke? My memories of Josh were mostly of spectacular alley-oop dunks.

No. That's one of the areas in which McRoberts has improved vastly since going pro. He's now a very solid perimeter shooter, whereas at Duke he was a terrible shooter outside of 5 feet.

CDu
04-21-2014, 12:03 PM
Disappointing start for the Bulls. Boozer played very well. Actually, both of Chicago's PFs played well, combining for 23 points, 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks while shooting 9-16 from the field). Dunleavy did not fare so well, shooting just 4-12 and losing track of Ariza on numerous occasions.

Ultimately, though, it was the Bulls' inability to defend Nene and Gortat (39 points, 21 rebounds, 17-27 FG) inside and Andre Miller (5-7 FG) outside that did them in.

They'll look to recover on Tuesday in essentially a must-win game (can't go down 2-0 at home and hope to survive).

It's not looking good for the Bulls though. Washington is a terrible matchup as they have terrific interior play to mitigate the Bulls' usual edge inside.

JasonEvans
04-21-2014, 01:02 PM
Disappointing start for the Bulls. Boozer played very well. Actually, both of Chicago's PFs played well, combining for 23 points, 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks while shooting 9-16 from the field). Dunleavy did not fare so well, shooting just 4-12 and losing track of Ariza on numerous occasions.

Ultimately, though, it was the Bulls' inability to defend Nene and Gortat (39 points, 21 rebounds, 17-27 FG) inside and Andre Miller (5-7 FG) outside that did them in.

They'll look to recover on Tuesday in essentially a must-win game (can't go down 2-0 at home and hope to survive).

It's not looking good for the Bulls though. Washington is a terrible matchup as they have terrific interior play to mitigate the Bulls' usual edge inside.

I know it is just one game in each series... and there is every chance that the #1 and #4 seeds will come back to take the series... but there is at least a somewhat decent chance at this point that Atlanta or Washington will be playing for the Eastern Conference Championship in a couple weeks.

Coulda made big big big money in Vegas on that bet a few months ago!!

-Jason "the East is so much worse than the West, it is just sad" Evans

JBDuke
04-21-2014, 01:05 PM
Disappointing start for the Bulls. Boozer played very well. Actually, both of Chicago's PFs played well, combining for 23 points, 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks while shooting 9-16 from the field). Dunleavy did not fare so well, shooting just 4-12 and losing track of Ariza on numerous occasions.

Ultimately, though, it was the Bulls' inability to defend Nene and Gortat (39 points, 21 rebounds, 17-27 FG) inside and Andre Miller (5-7 FG) outside that did them in.

They'll look to recover on Tuesday in essentially a must-win game (can't go down 2-0 at home and hope to survive).

It's not looking good for the Bulls though. Washington is a terrible matchup as they have terrific interior play to mitigate the Bulls' usual edge inside.

Actually, I think Nene did more perimeter scoring than Miller. Nene was playing the high post a lot and got a bunch of FT-line range jumpers. Most of Miller's scoring seemed to come up layups and cuts, with a short jumper and a fadeaway thrown in. The two were working a nice give-and-go in the early 4th quarter last night.

And credit to the Wizards - they played some hard-nosed Chicago style defense. They outrebounded the Bulls and stayed close in the turnover count.

As a Wizards fan, it was a lot of fun to watch. Great comeback, and the Wiz didn't fold down the stretch. And it was the veterans - Nene, Gortat, Miller, and Ariza - that really carried the load. The highly-regarded but young and playoff-inexperienced Washington backcourt was 7-25.

CDu
04-21-2014, 01:15 PM
I know it is just one game in each series... and there is every chance that the #1 and #4 seeds will come back to take the series... but there is at least a somewhat decent chance at this point that Atlanta or Washington will be playing for the Eastern Conference Championship in a couple weeks.

Coulda made big big big money in Vegas on that bet a few months ago!!

-Jason "the East is so much worse than the West, it is just sad" Evans

I agree. Remember when folks were talking up Roy Hibbert? Well, since the calendar reached 2014, he's averaged just 9.5 ppg and 5.6 rpg (for perspective, Joakim Noah has averaged more assists per game than Hibbert has rebounds in 2014). And in April, he's averaged 5.3 ppg and 3.2 rpg while shooting 23.5% from the field. Very strange. I felt he was a bit overrated based on his playoffs last year, but I didn't think he'd disappear this much.

Without him being a force inside, Indiana is a pretty pedestrian team by Playoffs standards. Now, I still think Indiana will beat Atlanta, but I don't think Indiana gets past either Chicago or (more likely) Washington.

My guess is that Washington beats Chicago and then beats Indiana. The Bullets, with a healthy Nene, are suddenly a very interesting team in the East.

But I completely with you that the East is a joke compared to the West, especially now that Indiana looks so shaky.

Billy Dat
04-21-2014, 02:11 PM
But I completely with you that the East is a joke compared to the West, especially now that Indiana looks so shaky.

So what happened to the Pacers? I have heard numerous theories including:

-The Granger/Turner trade was bad for locker room chemistry
-Paul George's alleged paternity scandal and catfish scandal was a huge distraction
-Hibbert and George are feuding over who gets shots and who is THE MAN
-The team thought, based on last year's run, that it had achieved something and lost their hunger
-Bird doesn't like Vogel and that tension is seeping into the rest of the team
-Stephenson, playing for a contract, is not playing smart
-The bench is weak after dealing away Psycho T and Gerald Green - they aren't getting what they wanted from Scola


Anyone else hearing this stuff? Anyone have a different theory?

Duvall
04-21-2014, 02:14 PM
So what happened to the Pacers? I have heard numerous theories including:

-The Granger/Turner trade was bad for locker room chemistry
-Paul George's alleged paternity scandal and catfish scandal was a huge distraction
-Hibbert and George are feuding over who gets shots and who is THE MAN
-The team thought, based on last year's run, that it had achieved something and lost their hunger
-Bird doesn't like Vogel and that tension is seeping into the rest of the team
-Stephenson, playing for a contract, is not playing smart
-The bench is weak after dealing away Psycho T and Gerald Green - they aren't getting what they wanted from Scola


Anyone else hearing this stuff? Anyone have a different theory?

- The loss of Miles Plumlee finally caught up to them.

pfrduke
04-21-2014, 02:25 PM
-The bench is weak after dealing away Psycho T and Gerald Green - they aren't getting what they wanted from Scola

The funny thing on the bench point is that last year's bench was criticized as being cripplingly weak. The pitch on the Pacers was that their starting 5 as a unit was better than everyone else but that the bench killed them. DJ Augustin was awful (his resurgence this year with Chicago being all the more surprising). Gerald Green was not good (his resurgence this year with Phoenix being all the more surprising). Sam Young played (way too many) meaningful minutes. Tyler Hansbrough was their only semi-effective bench player, which is just not good.

The offseason moves all were meant to address that. Scola and Watson were supposed to be big upgrades on Hansbrough and Augustin (respectively); Granger coming back (and, ultimately, Evan Turner) was supposed to be a big upgrade on Gerald Green. Chris Copeland was supposed to provide some stretch 4 versatility.

Well, the bench stunk again. CJ Watson has been an improvement as a backup point guard, but the rest of the team is not chipping in. It turned out to be just a lot of shuffling deck chairs.

CDu
04-21-2014, 02:37 PM
The funny thing on the bench point is that last year's bench was criticized as being cripplingly weak. The pitch on the Pacers was that their starting 5 as a unit was better than everyone else but that the bench killed them. DJ Augustin was awful (his resurgence this year with Chicago being all the more surprising). Gerald Green was not good (his resurgence this year with Phoenix being all the more surprising). Sam Young played (way too many) meaningful minutes. Tyler Hansbrough was their only semi-effective bench player, which is just not good.

The offseason moves all were meant to address that. Scola and Watson were supposed to be big upgrades on Hansbrough and Augustin (respectively); Granger coming back (and, ultimately, Evan Turner) was supposed to be a big upgrade on Gerald Green. Chris Copeland was supposed to provide some stretch 4 versatility.

Well, the bench stunk again. CJ Watson has been an improvement as a backup point guard, but the rest of the team is not chipping in. It turned out to be just a lot of shuffling deck chairs.

I actually think the bench this year is slightly better than their bench last year. But it certainly isn't worlds better. Scola and Turner have been solid reserves, but have probably only matched Hansbrough and Green. Watson has been better than Augustin was, but not by much.

The biggest problem I see is that their PG play has regressed a bit, West has gotten a bit worse, and Hibbert has regressed A LOT. Really the last one seems to be the biggest issue. Hibbert has been nonexistent in 2014.

sagegrouse
04-21-2014, 03:15 PM
Disappointing start for the Bulls. Boozer played very well. Actually, both of Chicago's PFs played well, combining for 23 points, 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks while shooting 9-16 from the field). Dunleavy did not fare so well, shooting just 4-12 and losing track of Ariza on numerous occasions.

Ultimately, though, it was the Bulls' inability to defend Nene and Gortat (39 points, 21 rebounds, 17-27 FG) inside and Andre Miller (5-7 FG) outside that did them in.

They'll look to recover on Tuesday in essentially a must-win game (can't go down 2-0 at home and hope to survive).

It's not looking good for the Bulls though. Washington is a terrible matchup as they have terrific interior play to mitigate the Bulls' usual edge inside.

Happy to hear that Carlos and Mike are still on the Bulls' roster. I saw only the Washington rally in the 4th quarter, and neither made an appearance. They couldn't have done worse than the players on the court.

pfrduke
04-22-2014, 09:08 AM
The Memphis-OKC game was nuts. Not super well played in the last 3-4 minutes plus overtime, but some ridiculous plays (Kevin Durant's prayer of a four-point play in particular) and super-intense basketball. Every time down the court OKC had to fight a mini-war against Tony Allen to get the ball into Durant's hands (which sometimes led to Russell Westbrook taking the easy way out and shooting but also completely took the Thunder out of any offensive flow). On the other end of the court, Memphis ran a series of sets designed to get Z-Bo the ball in space on the left block with ~8 seconds left on the shot clock and just let him do his thing - he got 6 of their 8 shots in overtime, scored 8 points, and outscored the Thunder by himself in the extra frame.

rsvman
04-22-2014, 09:37 AM
...... The Bullets, with a healthy Nene, are suddenly a very interesting team in the East...

:confused: Was this deliberate, or a reflex? Aren't they called the Wizards these days??

Troublemaker
04-22-2014, 09:46 AM
The Memphis-OKC game was nuts. Not super well played in the last 3-4 minutes plus overtime, but some ridiculous plays (Kevin Durant's prayer of a four-point play in particular) and super-intense basketball. Every time down the court OKC had to fight a mini-war against Tony Allen to get the ball into Durant's hands (which sometimes led to Russell Westbrook taking the easy way out and shooting but also completely took the Thunder out of any offensive flow). On the other end of the court, Memphis ran a series of sets designed to get Z-Bo the ball in space on the left block with ~8 seconds left on the shot clock and just let him do his thing - he got 6 of their 8 shots in overtime, scored 8 points, and outscored the Thunder by himself in the extra frame.

Yeah, that was my favorite game of these young playoffs so far. I guess the two other candidates for best game would be Clippers-Warriors Game 1 and the Rockets-Blazers OT game, but as entertaining as those games were, this one had the feeling of all-around fierce competence from both teams, of offenses managing to execute against intense, high-level resistance on defense, which wasn't the case in the other games. I was very impressed with Memphis and new coach David Joerger. In previous seasons, I don't believe Memphis would've been able to consistently execute intricate offense to win last night's game. He's a coach to keep an eye on for sure.

Joerger has Memphis looking like the better, tougher, smarter team through two games. I'd hate to bet against Durant, though. Will be interesting to see how the series resolves.

pfrduke
04-22-2014, 10:01 AM
Yeah, that was my favorite game of these young playoffs so far. I guess the two other candidates for best game would be Clippers-Warriors Game 1 and the Rockets-Blazers OT game, but as entertaining as those games were, this one had the feeling of all-around fierce competence from both teams, of offenses managing to execute against intense, high-level resistance on defense, which wasn't the case in the other games. I was very impressed with Memphis and new coach David Joerger. In previous seasons, I don't believe Memphis would've been able to consistently execute intricate offense to win last night's game. He's a coach to keep an eye on for sure.

Joerger has Memphis looking like the better, tougher, smarter team through two games. I'd hate to bet against Durant, though. Will be interesting to see how the series resolves.

The play that freed up Z-Bo for the layup with about 20 seconds left was excellent. Not a lot of coaches would draw up action for Tony Allen, and it worked doubly well when Serge Ibaka for some reason decided that leaving Randolph alone 5 feet from the hoop to double Tony Allen was preferable to letting Allen shoot a contested runner.

BobbyFan
04-22-2014, 11:26 AM
Not a lot of coaches would draw up action for Tony Allen, and it worked doubly well when Serge Ibaka for some reason decided that leaving Randolph alone 5 feet from the hoop to double Tony Allen was preferable to letting Allen shoot a contested runner.

Ibaka can get block happy to the detriment of his team's defense. He has become more disciplined over past few years, but he's not there yet.

He was 4th in DPOY voting, but his impact on that end is inferior to big men like Bogut, Howard, and Duncan, all of whom were behind Ibaka. Bogut in particular has been an elite defender this year, although I don't think Mark Jackson realizes it.

CDu
04-22-2014, 03:19 PM
:confused: Was this deliberate, or a reflex? Aren't they called the Wizards these days??

I don't remember if it was intentional or not. I often say "Bullets" ironically (probably not the best choice of nicknames for DC/Baltimore), but it also may be that I just forgot. But yes, they are the Wizards, ne: Bullets.

CDu
04-22-2014, 03:24 PM
Ibaka can get block happy to the detriment of his team's defense. He has become more disciplined over past few years, but he's not there yet.

He was 4th in DPOY voting, but his impact on that end is inferior to big men like Bogut, Howard, and Duncan, all of whom were behind Ibaka. Bogut in particular has been an elite defender this year, although I don't think Mark Jackson realizes it.

Yeah, the DPoY voting regularly produces some quirky outcomes. For example, I actually think Noah was a better defender in previous years than this year. But I think he won the award this year for (still) being outstanding on defense but substantially improving as an offensive player in carrying the Bulls to nearly 50 wins without Rose or (for the second half) Deng. So in a way it was like a consolation prize for being closer in the MVP discussion. He probably should have gotten the DPoY in a previous year and not this year.

Similarly, LeBron James has historically been a very good defender. But that has been less the case this year. Yet I believe he still finished top 10 in DPoY voting.

I liken the DPoY voting to that of the Gold Glove awards: unless you're otherworldly at defense (or have an iconic moment to solidify your case), you better also be a productive offensive player or you might just go unnoticed.

And invariably someone gets honored for ballhawking (chasing either steals or blocks) rather than actually playing good defense.

Des Esseintes
04-22-2014, 04:07 PM
I don't remember if it was intentional or not. I often say "Bullets" ironically (probably not the best choice of nicknames for DC/Baltimore), but it also may be that I just forgot. But yes, they are the Wizards, ne: Bullets.
Really? I've always thought the Bullets was one of the best team names in American sports. Unique and cool. Abandoning the moniker over fears of insensitivity to violent crime seems very short-sighted in retrospect. "Wizards" is just beyond lame.



And invariably someone gets honored for ballhawking (chasing either steals or blocks) rather than actually playing good defense.

You must not have seen the hilariously misguided article (http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-hidden-value-of-the-nba-steal/) on 538 explaining how steals are worth 9 points.

sagegrouse
04-22-2014, 04:14 PM
I don't remember if it was intentional or not. I often say "Bullets" ironically (probably not the best choice of nicknames for DC/Baltimore), but it also may be that I just forgot. But yes, they are the Wizards, ne: Bullets.

"'Zards" just can't compete with "Les Boulez."

pfrduke
04-22-2014, 04:29 PM
You must not have seen the hilariously misguided article (http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-hidden-value-of-the-nba-steal/) on 538 explaining how steals are worth 9 points.

That article is crazy. There is no earthly way to say that, in terms of actual game play, someone scoring 25 and getting 1 steal is the equivalent of someone scoring 16 and getting 2 steals (assuming, as I think the article does, that the players arrived at their points with equal efficiency). That's stupid.

Des Esseintes
04-22-2014, 04:34 PM
That article is crazy. There is no earthly way to say that, in terms of actual game play, someone scoring 25 and getting 1 steal is the equivalent of someone scoring 16 and getting 2 steals (assuming, as I think the article does, that the players arrived at their points with equal efficiency). That's stupid.

Silver's new venture has not had the most auspicious launch. He made his name in baseball, and the simple fact of the matter is that you have to know something about a sport to analyze it deeply with statistics. Silver doesn't know basketball, and in hiring Morris has apparently brought aboard an idiot who thinks simple box score regressions are a legitimate way to deep-mine for player value.

MCFinARL
04-22-2014, 07:26 PM
Really? I've always thought the Bullets was one of the best team names in American sports. Unique and cool. Abandoning the moniker over fears of insensitivity to violent crime seems very short-sighted in retrospect. "Wizards" is just beyond lame.

Agree completely that "Wizards" is beyond lame, though that might make it a uniquely appropriate name for a team that has been beyond lame most of the time since the name was changed. In defense of the original decision to switch, though, Abe Pollin was a very community-oriented guy, and around the time of the name change young men in the DC and Baltimore area were shooting each other with depressing regularity. Pollin, I suspect, would not have wanted there to be even a chance that his team name could contribute to encouraging kids or teens to think that kind of behavior was okay.





"'Zards" just can't compete with "Les Boulez."

I always liked "Les Boulez" too--is that a Kornheiser coinage?

JNort
04-22-2014, 08:08 PM
Can we get a full count on all the Dukies we got in the playoffs?

Bulls: Boozer, Dunleavy

Wizards: None

Hawks: Brand

Pacers: None

Bobcats: Henderson, McRoberts

Heat: Shane

Clippers: JJ

Warriors: None

Nets: Mason

Raptors:

Mavs:

Spurs:

Blazers:

Rockets:

Thunder:

Grizzlies:

-jk
04-22-2014, 08:13 PM
Agree completely that "Wizards" is beyond lame, though that might make it a uniquely appropriate name for a team that has been beyond lame most of the time since the name was changed. In defense of the original decision to switch, though, Abe Pollin was a very community-oriented guy, and around the time of the name change young men in the DC and Baltimore area were shooting each other with depressing regularity. Pollin, I suspect, would not have wanted there to be even a chance that his team name could contribute to encouraging kids or teens to think that kind of behavior was okay.






I always liked "Les Boulez" too--is that a Kornheiser coinage?

Wizards v. Bullets (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-sports-bog/wp/2014/04/15/the-washington-wizards-couldve-been-the-washington-ravens/)

-jk

luvdahops
04-22-2014, 08:33 PM
Yeah, the DPoY voting regularly produces some quirky outcomes. For example, I actually think Noah was a better defender in previous years than this year. But I think he won the award this year for (still) being outstanding on defense but substantially improving as an offensive player in carrying the Bulls to nearly 50 wins without Rose or (for the second half) Deng. So in a way it was like a consolation prize for being closer in the MVP discussion. He probably should have gotten the DPoY in a previous year and not this year.

Similarly, LeBron James has historically been a very good defender. But that has been less the case this year. Yet I believe he still finished top 10 in DPoY voting.

I liken the DPoY voting to that of the Gold Glove awards: unless you're otherworldly at defense (or have an iconic moment to solidify your case), you better also be a productive offensive player or you might just go unnoticed.

And invariably someone gets honored for ballhawking (chasing either steals or blocks) rather than actually playing good defense.

I agree with your points here, especially on Noah. And would add that there have been many nights this year - including Game 1 against the Wiz - when Jimmy Butler, not Noah, was the Bulls best defender.

brevity
04-22-2014, 08:33 PM
Can we get a full count on all the Dukies we got in the playoffs?

Bulls: Boozer, Dunleavy

Wizards: None

Hawks: Brand

Pacers: None

Bobcats: Henderson, McRoberts

Heat: Shane

Clippers: JJ

Warriors: None

Nets: Mason

Raptors:

Mavs:

Spurs:

Blazers:

Rockets:

Thunder:

Grizzlies:

You've got it. pfrduke posted a list on the regular season thread (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?31990-Dukies-in-the-NBA-2013-14-Edition&p=725711#post725711), and it had the same 8 names.


With Phoenix's loss to the Grizzlies last night (sad face) we know which of our Devils will be seeing postseason action and which will be starting the offseason workouts in preparation for next year (or, you know, going fishing). Heat-Bobcats and Bulls-Nets (assuming they happen) will be crowded with Duke guys.

Playoff Bound:
Shane Battier (likely to play the Bobcats)
Carlos Boozer (likely to play the Nets)
Elton Brand (will be playing the Pacers)
Mike Dunleavy (likely to play the Nets)
Gerald Henderson (likely to play the Heat)
Josh McRoberts (likely to play the Heat)
Mason Plumlee (likely to play the Bulls)
JJ Redick (likely to play Golden State)

Going Fishing:
Luol Deng
Kyrie Irving
Ryan Kelly
Miles Plumlee
Shavlik Randolph
Austin Rivers
Kyle Singler

JBDuke
04-22-2014, 08:43 PM
...In defense of the original decision to switch, though, Abe Pollin was a very community-oriented guy, and around the time of the name change young men in the DC and Baltimore area were shooting each other with depressing regularity. Pollin, I suspect, would not have wanted there to be even a chance that his team name could contribute to encouraging kids or teens to think that kind of behavior was okay.

I always liked "Les Boulez" too--is that a Kornheiser coinage?


This is my recollection as well. Abe Pollin had decided he wanted to change the name. There was no hue and cry from the community for him to do it, he had just made that decision on his own, based on what he observed in the community around him. The choice of Wizards as the replacement came about with some community input, and was merely one of the slightly better of several lame options.

As the owner, he had that privilege, and based on what he did for this city, I'm not about to criticize Mr. Pollin.

And, as far as I know, "Les Boulez" is a Kornheiser invention.

CDu
04-22-2014, 08:58 PM
I agree with your points here, especially on Noah. And would add that there have been many nights this year - including Game 1 against the Wiz - when Jimmy Butler, not Noah, was the Bulls best defender.

Oh definitely. The fact that Butler (and Gibson for that matter) didn't even get votes while PJ Tucker and Patrick Beverley did is a joke. What Butler does defensively (while consistently playing 40+ minutes and ALWAYS guarding the opponent's best wing scorer) was silly.

CDu
04-22-2014, 09:01 PM
And suddenly that somewhat-maligned Pacers' bench (mostly Scola) has answered the bell, in a BIG way.

Roy Hibbert still MIA.

sagegrouse
04-22-2014, 09:26 PM
This is my recollection as well. Abe Pollin had decided he wanted to change the name. There was no hue and cry from the community for him to do it, he had just made that decision on his own, based on what he observed in the community around him. The choice of Wizards as the replacement came about with some community input, and was merely one of the slightly better of several lame options.

As the owner, he had that privilege, and based on what he did for this city, I'm not about to criticize Mr. Pollin.

And, as far as I know, "Les Boulez" is a Kornheiser invention.


Actually, the Washington NBA franchise ran a fake contest. First, the team asked for fan suggestions. Then it came up with six finalists, and then finally selected "Wizards," which was the predetermined choice.

wilson
04-23-2014, 08:02 AM
...as far as I know, "Les Boulez" is a Kornheiser invention.I remember Olbermann doing it in the mid '90s SportsCenter heyday, several years before Kornheiser hit the ESPN airwaves. In fact, the Bullets became the Wizards a full four seasons before Pardon the Interruption debuted.

MCFinARL
04-23-2014, 08:07 AM
I remember Olbermann doing it in the mid '90s SportsCenter heyday, several years before Kornheiser hit the ESPN airwaves. In fact, the Bullets became the Wizards a full four seasons before Pardon the Interruption debuted.

Yes, but Tony Kornheiser was writing about sports in the Washington Post long before Pardon the Interruption debuted, beginning there in 1979, and IIRC, frequently wrote about "Les Boulez" as well as "La Sooz"--his pet name for Susan O'Malley, then Director of Advertising for the Bullets/Capitals organization.

moonpie23
04-23-2014, 08:11 AM
lol......

The Gordog
04-23-2014, 08:12 AM
I remember Olbermann doing it in the mid '90s SportsCenter heyday, several years before Kornheiser hit the ESPN airwaves. In fact, the Bullets became the Wizards a full four seasons before Pardon the Interruption debuted.

And KornheiseR Was Writing For The Washington Post Before K O Made His TV Debut.

CDu
04-23-2014, 10:03 AM
Well, Tuesday night's games provided a little bit of intrigue and (likely) the resolution of one series.

Indiana bounced back and pounded Atlanta in the second half to even the series at 1-1. I think that series will go 5 or 6 games, with Indiana winning. Atlanta, without Horford, just doesn't appear to be good enough to beat the Pacers in a 7-game series. There's a reason this team won only 37 games.

Toronto bounced back as well to even the series with Brooklyn. Toronto is actually an interesting team. Valanciunas is a very productive big man, DeRozan is turning into a quality wing, and they have two solid PGs in Lowry and Vasquez. They aren't so interesting that they could challenge the Heat (or likely beat the Nets), but they clearly aren't the doormats of recent years. I think Brooklyn takes this one in 6.

In the final game of the night, the Wizards closed the 4th with a 14-4 run to overcome a double-digit deficit, and then dominated the first couple of minutes of OT to take a 2-0 lead in that series. I don't know the statistics on percentage of teams that lose the first two at home and come back to win the series, but I imagine that it is REALLY low. Like, I would guess less than 3% low. This Bulls team has overachieved all season, but they've run into the worst possible matchup for them: a very well balanced and deep team with size and athleticism. The Bulls success this season came in exploiting opponents' weaknesses and outworking their opponents. Well, the Wizards don't have a glaring weakness, and Nene, Gortat, and Booker aren't getting outworked. I think this series ends in 5 in favor of Washington. And I think Washington stands a very real chance of beating the Pacers next round. With a healthy Nene, they are a legitimately good basketball team.

As for the Bulls, I suspect we're a week or so away from it being time to let the Carmelo Anthony sign-and-trade for Boozer plus a lot of draft picks speculation reign.

GGLC
04-23-2014, 10:08 AM
Once again neither Dunleavy nor Boozer were on the floor as the Bulls gave away their lead and, ultimately, the win.

You've got to think that at least one of them could have provided more of an offensive punch the last possession than Hinrich driving into three players and flailing up a shot.

Reilly
04-23-2014, 10:17 AM
On April 6, 2007, Milchael Wilbon wrote that Tony K coined the phrase some 20 years prior:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/05/AR2007040502262.html

So that would have been the late 1980s ... right around the time I had a life-size Manute Bol growth chart taped to the ceiling of my Duke dorm room, hung by my DC-area native roommate.

My other Bullets/Duke memory from that era: arriving at the Capital Centre in 1987 early-ish in the morning for the ACC tournament, and just walking around the arena on the outside (it wasn't open yet), and encountering Moses Malone, who was there with other players waiting for a bus to pick them up to take them on a road trip ...

CDu
04-23-2014, 10:19 AM
Once again neither Dunleavy nor Boozer were on the floor as the Bulls gave away their lead and, ultimately, the win.

You've got to think that at least one of them could have provided more of an offensive punch the last possession than Hinrich driving into three players and flailing up a shot.

With a 10-point lead late (and having dominated the 4th quarter to that point), I think the choice in rotation was absolutely the correct one. The Bulls' best closing lineup (and by far their best defensive lineup) is Noah, Gibson, Butler, and Hinrich. And Augustin is the best scorer on the team, so he is in there for ballhandling, free throw shooting, and offense. Up until the final couple of possessions, I think the Bulls were absolutely right in keeping Dunleavy and Boozer on the bench. The team needed defense more than offense up until the last minute.

That being said, I agree that getting Dunleavy on the floor for that last offensive possession would have been wise. He's not a creator on offense, but he would be a viable catch and shoot option. I think having Boozer on the bench for Gibson and Noah made sense. Gibson was having a monster second half, and Noah is the offensive facilitator. But I could have easily seen Dunleavy on the floor there in place of Hinrich.

It's just a tough situation for Chicago. Boozer is the third best big man they have, and by far the third best defensive big man (maybe even the fourth best). So he's not going to play down the stretch. And Dunleavy is such a defensive liability that, unless he's on fire offensively, it's hard to keep him on the floor against a team where you can't hide him defensively.

I do think that Boozer and/or Dunleavy should have seen more run in the 4th in Game 1. But aside from the final minute (or less), I think the lineup choice was correct in Game 2.

gurufrisbee
04-23-2014, 11:57 PM
I'm thinking Lamarcus Aldridge is earning his spot on Coach K's 2016 team right now.

lotusland
04-24-2014, 08:43 AM
So what happened to the Pacers? I have heard numerous theories including:

-The Granger/Turner trade was bad for locker room chemistry
-Paul George's alleged paternity scandal and catfish scandal was a huge distraction
-Hibbert and George are feuding over who gets shots and who is THE MAN
-The team thought, based on last year's run, that it had achieved something and lost their hunger
-Bird doesn't like Vogel and that tension is seeping into the rest of the team
-Stephenson, playing for a contract, is not playing smart
-The bench is weak after dealing away Psycho T and Gerald Green - they aren't getting what they wanted from Scola


Anyone else hearing this stuff? Anyone have a different theory?

I have to know what the catfish scandal was. Farm raised vs free swimming? Did it have anything to do with noodling I hope?

wilson
04-24-2014, 08:54 AM
I have to know what the catfish scandal was. Farm raised vs free swimming? Did it have anything to do with noodling I hope?Catfishing is the practice of establishing an interpersonal relationship via the interweb by concealing or distorting one's true identity and inhabiting a created or embellished online persona. Think Manti Te'o.

jacone21
04-24-2014, 09:31 AM
Catfishing is the practice of establishing an interpersonal relationship via the interweb by concealing or distorting one's true identity and inhabiting a created or embellished online persona. Think Manti Te'o.

Back in the 80s, when I visited my brother at Georgia Southwestern College, I met a couple of girls who were called Mud Cat and Channel Cat. Cat fishing has changed a lot since then.

On topic, Aldridge is bringing the pain in that series.

superdave
04-24-2014, 09:49 AM
I watched the first half of the Rockets-Blazers. Dwight Howard had Houston's first 11 points and had 25 in the half. He absolutely dominated Robin Lopez and just kept going at him. Aldridge tried to guard him some as well. He was dunking everything, making hustle plays and had a few nice moves as Hakeem looked on from the front row. It was pretty awesome to watch. I have not seen that from any big man since Shaq 12 years ago.

But - and you knew that was coming when discussing DH - Howard started walking back up the court after every successful play, posing for the cameras and smiling. He could not maintain his focus or energy. He wanted to primp instead.

So it's no wonder that Houston lost and Howard had a poor second half. That's the book on him. He has never grown as a player (let alone shown any leadership whatsoever) and his teams do not win. What a waste of talent and freak athleticism. He could be legendary if he wanted it.

lotusland
04-24-2014, 01:07 PM
Catfishing is the practice of establishing an interpersonal relationship via the interweb by concealing or distorting one's true identity and inhabiting a created or embellished online persona. Think Manti Te'o.

That's a huge disappointment. I thought maybe he owned a fish camp and was outed for serving salt and pepper filet of catfish substituting coy from a fountain in a local park. I could have come up with several better catfish controversies than that. I hate it when real life doesn't live up to my imagination:(.

lotusland
04-24-2014, 01:10 PM
Back in the 80s, when I visited my brother at Georgia Southwestern College, I met a couple of girls who were called Mud Cat and Channel Cat. Cat fishing has changed a lot since then.

On topic, Aldridge is bringing the pain in that series.

Again a controversy involving Mud and Channel would be much more interesting. I'm going to imagine interesting reasons for their respective nicknames so please don't ruin it by sharing the boring truth.

MCFinARL
04-25-2014, 09:39 PM
So lots of minutes for Dunleavy and a fair number for Boozer tonight against the Wizards. Wizards leading by 3 halfway through the 3rd quarter, but Dunleavy has an astounding 22 points--astounding because no other Bull has more than 8.

JBDuke
04-25-2014, 09:54 PM
So lots of minutes for Dunleavy and a fair number for Boozer tonight against the Wizards. Wizards leading by 3 halfway through the 3rd quarter, but Dunleavy has an astounding 22 points--astounding because no other Bull has more than 8.

Make it 29 now for Mike at the end of the 3rd. Carlos is the Bulls' second leading scorer with 14. And they'll be headed to the bench for the 4th...

kAzE
04-25-2014, 10:01 PM
32 now, Dunleavy definitely having the defining game of his career. Hope the Bulls can pull out the win so it means something.

MCFinARL
04-25-2014, 10:12 PM
32 now, Dunleavy definitely having the defining game of his career. Hope the Bulls can pull out the win so it means something.

They are looking pretty good right now since Nene was ejected.

CDu
04-25-2014, 10:15 PM
Dunleavy with 32 and heading back into the game with a little over 6 minutes left. The Bulls lead by 7, but this is about when they've run out of gas in previous games. Thibadeau has used Snell and Dunleavy a bit more in the second half than in previous games, so hopefully Chicago's wings (most notably Butler) will have enough left to finish.

Unfortunately, Dunleavy comes in and misses, then commits a turnover. Now it is a 1-point game.

kAzE
04-25-2014, 10:32 PM
The Bulls crunch time offense:

1. Pass it around the perimeter
2. Pass it around the perimeter some more
3. Mike Dunleavy 3
4. Hope for offensive rebound

CDu
04-25-2014, 10:34 PM
The Bulls crunch time offense:

1. Pass it around the perimeter
2. Pass it around the perimeter some more
3. Mike Dunleavy 3
4. Hope for offensive rebound

Yeah, no playmakers and few scoring options. It's a miracle that they've gotten this far with such little offensive firepower (worst offensive team in the league).

kAzE
04-25-2014, 10:36 PM
Wow big 3 by Butler. I really like that kid, he's a tough competitor. I feel kind of bad that he gets run into the ground game after game by Thibodeau, those 53 minute games are going to catch up to him at some point. Great X's and O's coach, but the best coaches in the NBA know how to steal a few minutes of rest for their starters, even in the playoffs.

CDu
04-25-2014, 10:37 PM
Uggh, Dunleavy has had some highs and lows in this fourth quarter. Some absolute dagger 3s, but then 3 really awful turnovers.

kAzE
04-25-2014, 10:45 PM
Whoa, I never even knew about this rule that you get a shot and the ball if you foul while the clock is stopped. That's a really good rule. They need to put that in college.

kAzE
04-25-2014, 10:47 PM
Bye bye Tony Snell for the rest of the playoffs hahaha . . . how stupid can you be?

Trey21
04-25-2014, 10:53 PM
Uggh, Dunleavy has had some highs and lows in this fourth quarter. Some absolute dagger 3s, but then 3 really awful turnovers.

That's true but if he hadn't have scored like he did then the game wouldn't have even been close. The Bulls are in dire need of scorer besides Augustin/Boozer and neither of them are that reliable to be honest. Good move by Thibs to just run Dunleavy off of screen. Mike can still stroke it 8-10 from deep tonight for 35. J is like fine wine. Great to see him have a game like this at this stage in his career.

CDu
04-25-2014, 10:53 PM
What a crazy end to the Bulls/Wizards game. Bulls, up 2, get fouled in a dead-ball situation (which means a free throw and the ball). Augustin hits the free throw. Then the Bulls inbound, get fouled, and hit two free throws. Now, up 5, with 5.5 seconds left, Tony Snell makes a ridiculous rookie mistake, going for the steal and fouling Wall who (realizing the situation) is in the act of shooting... from 65 feet away. 3.9 seconds left on the clock, down 5, shooting 3. Wall hits the first two to cut it to 3. Then Wittman signals for an intentional miss. Wall fails to miss, however, cutting it to 2. The Bulls inbound and get fouled with 3.1 seconds left. They hit the first to again make it 3. Then, they miss the second, and Washington rebounds. But Ariza throws a soft, lateral pass that misses Wall (who wasn't looking). Wall chases it down, but can't quite save it in time. Wizards unforced turnover, Bulls ball with 0.3 seconds left. Ugly basketball at its ugliest.

Despite the 3 atrocious turnovers (which resulted in, I believe, 7 Washington points in transition), it was an excellent night for Dunleavy. He had 35 points and provided a huge spark with his 3pt shooting. Hopefully it continues in Game 4.

_Gary
04-25-2014, 10:58 PM
Despite the 3 atrocious turnovers (which resulted in, I believe, 7 Washington points in transition), it was an excellent night for Dunleavy. He had 35 points and provided a huge spark with his 3pt shooting. Hopefully it continues in Game 4.

The last turnover on Dunleavy wasn't atrocious, imho. The Bulls had no timeouts left so he had to get the ball inbounds. He's trying to lob it over the head of the man guarding Noah, but Noah doesn't instinctively move in the direction he should have. That led to an easy Wall pickoff of the pass. But I can't lay all the blame for that one on Mike. Heck, I can't even lay half of it on him.

Regardless, our Dukie did indeed shine tonight. Too bad Boozer can't get in on the act. He started off great but didn't finish strong, sitting on the bench for most of crunch time.

sagegrouse
04-25-2014, 11:19 PM
The last turnover on Dunleavy wasn't atrocious, imho. The Bulls had no timeouts left so he had to get the ball inbounds. He's trying to lob it over the head of the man guarding Noah, but Noah doesn't instinctively move in the direction he should have. That led to an easy Wall pickoff of the pass. But I can't lay all the blame for that one on Mike. Heck, I can't even lay half of it on him.

Regardless, our Dukie did indeed shine tonight. Too bad Boozer can't get in on the act. He started off great but didn't finish strong, sitting on the bench for most of crunch time.

FWIW, does the fact that Mike D. needs a hair weave make you feel old?

_Gary
04-25-2014, 11:48 PM
FWIW, does the fact that Mike D. needs a hair weave make you feel old?

Me not really knowing what a hair weave is makes me feel old. :p

JasonEvans
04-27-2014, 10:09 AM
I'm gonna be perfectly honest... before tonight, if you had asked me if Vince Carter was still in the league, I probably would have said no.

I
Was
Wrong!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNy8dQNcf2w

-Jason "I'd hate for the Spurs to go out early!" Evans

Billy Dat
04-27-2014, 12:02 PM
I'm gonna be perfectly honest... before tonight, if you had asked me if Vince Carter was still in the league, I probably would have said no.

That gave me a solid laugh, thanks....it is funny how if you stick around the league long enough, you lose whatever stink lingered on you in the past. I am not saying people forget Vince's purposeful tanking, but most probably felt good for him to have another big moment. I aint mad at ya, Vince.

How do you guys feel about Cuban being in the celebratory scrum? I honestly didn't think I'd have a problem with it, and I don't think I really care, but I also thinks he kind of looks like an idiot.

pfrduke
04-27-2014, 12:25 PM
How do you guys feel about Cuban being in the celebratory scrum? I honestly didn't think I'd have a problem with it, and I don't think I really care, but I also thinks he kind of looks like an idiot.

My wife's reaction while we were watching the game - "Honey, some crazy guy from the stands just ran out and bear-hugged Vince Carter. Why isn't security doing anything about it?"

CDu
04-27-2014, 01:29 PM
Apparently the Wizards took note of Dunleavy's 35 point outburst. They have blanketed him thus far. Unfortunately he doesn't have the athleticism any more to make an impact when teams chase him off screens.

Hopefully the Wizards lose focus/energy. Otherwise it could be a long day for him.

kAzE
04-27-2014, 02:38 PM
Apparently the Wizards took note of Dunleavy's 35 point outburst. They have blanketed him thus far. Unfortunately he doesn't have the athleticism any more to make an impact when teams chase him off screens.

Hopefully the Wizards lose focus/energy. Otherwise it could be a long day for him.

And he's getting destroyed at the other end by Ariza. The Bulls just don't have the horses on offense to win this series. The Wizards look like a serious contender to get to the eastern finals. They are by far playing the best of the 4 teams on this side of the bracket.

RoyalBlue08
04-27-2014, 03:03 PM
That gave me a solid laugh, thanks....it is funny how if you stick around the league long enough, you lose whatever stink lingered on you in the past. I am not saying people forget Vince's purposeful tanking, but most probably felt good for him to have another big moment. I aint mad at ya, Vince.

How do you guys feel about Cuban being in the celebratory scrum? I honestly didn't think I'd have a problem with it, and I don't think I really care, but I also thinks he kind of looks like an idiot.

I also think he looks like an idiot, but I am almost certain he doesn't care what I think. He should care about what his players think, however. I wonder how they feel. I can remember mentions over the years about how Cuban often parties with his players, etc., so maybe they are cool with him on the court after a game. But I have wondered in the past and continue to wonder if this sort of thing hurts or helps him with attracting free agents. Maybe both depending on the personality of the particular player?

CDu
04-27-2014, 04:00 PM
And he's getting destroyed at the other end by Ariza. The Bulls just don't have the horses on offense to win this series. The Wizards look like a serious contender to get to the eastern finals. They are by far playing the best of the 4 teams on this side of the bracket.

Agreed. I think Washington will face Miami in the ECF. They are good.

Chicago has a few nice players in Gibson, Noah, and Butler, but they are a couple of playmakers short. They REALLY need Rose back, and one more playmaker as well.

dukelifer
04-27-2014, 04:08 PM
Warriors putting on a show. Steph Curry is the most compelling player in basketball. Not the fastest- not sure he can dunk- but the kid can shoot like no one else. Someone needs to sequence the Curry family genome. Clearly they have something in their genes that makes them incredible shooters.

Trey21
04-27-2014, 04:29 PM
Warriors putting on a show. Steph Curry is the most compelling player in basketball. Not the fastest- not sure he can dunk- but the kid can shoot like no one else. Someone needs to sequence the Curry family genome. Clearly they have something in their genes that makes them incredible shooters.

I totally agree. When Curry is on fire he is literally must see TV. Ranks up there with LeBron and Durant in terms of must see basketball. Bill Simmons often says if he gets a text that says "Curry is heating up" then he drops everything and checks out the game. I don't blame him because when Curry is on fire it is must see basketball. So great to see a small kid from Davidson mark his mark on the league.

I also need to give Vince some props. He never really realized his full potential but the past couple year in Dallas he has really transformed into a really nice role player. He is also 7th All-Time in 3-pt. FG made in NBA history. He was a superb dunker but he became a really great shooter later on in his career.

_Gary
04-27-2014, 09:53 PM
I also need to give Vince some props. He never really realized his full potential but the past couple year in Dallas he has really transformed into a really nice role player. He is also 7th All-Time in 3-pt. FG made in NBA history. He was a superb dunker but he became a really great shooter later on in his career.

I have only one thing to say to this: B-O-O!

g-money
04-27-2014, 11:17 PM
Warriors putting on a show. Steph Curry is the most compelling player in basketball. Not the fastest- not sure he can dunk- but the kid can shoot like no one else. Someone needs to sequence the Curry family genome. Clearly they have something in their genes that makes them incredible shooters.

What Steph has going for him (among other skills) is the quickest release in all of basketball. It makes up for his lack of height in a major way on the offensive end. ESPN even did one of those "sports science (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8U_u24O8Nw)" features on it.

Seth's release is PDQ too, it's just that he's a notch lower on the athleticism scale than Steph. That said, I'm still optimistic Seth will get his shot in the NBA.

Highlander
04-28-2014, 01:13 PM
Agreed. I think Washington will face Miami in the ECF. They are good.



Ironic that if the Bobcats had beaten the Celtics at the end of the year, Washington would have drawn the 7 seed and started against Miami, and probably not made it out of the first round.

But they didn't. And Charlotte's best player injured his foot in the first game of a series that they had only a snowball's chance of taking past 5 games with everyone healthy. Now they are likely to get swept while the team that finished one game ahead of them looks like world beaters. I swear, the only luck the Bobcats have ever had in their history has been bad. Will be glad to lose the stink of that name at the end of the year.

CDu
04-28-2014, 01:57 PM
Ironic that if the Bobcats had beaten the Celtics at the end of the year, Washington would have drawn the 7 seed and started against Miami, and probably not made it out of the first round.

But they didn't. And Charlotte's best player injured his foot in the first game of a series that they had only a snowball's chance of taking past 5 games with everyone healthy. Now they are likely to get swept while the team that finished one game ahead of them looks like world beaters. I swear, the only luck the Bobcats have ever had in their history has been bad. Will be glad to lose the stink of that name at the end of the year.

Definitely bad luck for the Bobcats. Though to be fair, the only reason that the Wizards' record was so low is because they were without Nene for 30 games this season and they didn't get Andre Miller until the trade deadline. The return of Nene gives the Wizards two terrific big men (not many teams can dominate the Bulls inside, but the Wizards have done so), while the addition of Miller gives them a veteran presence to run the offense whenever Wall needs a rest.

There isn't a team in the league that the Wizards can't match up with now that they are whole. And if their perimeter players are hitting their 3s, they can beat anyone. I love their matchup against the Pacers. And I don't hate their matchup against the Heat any more than I hate anyone's matchup against the Heat. If the Wizards make it to the Eastern Conference Finals, I suspect they'd take it to at least 6 games against the Heat.

luvdahops
04-28-2014, 02:51 PM
Warriors putting on a show. Steph Curry is the most compelling player in basketball. Not the fastest- not sure he can dunk- but the kid can shoot like no one else. Someone needs to sequence the Curry family genome. Clearly they have something in their genes that makes them incredible shooters.

IIRC, Steph dunked against us in Cameron his senior year. It wasn't on a breakaway either, but rather in a half-court setting where he bolted through an open lane and threw it down with some authority.

kAzE
04-28-2014, 08:59 PM
Stick a fork in the Pacers, they're DONE.

CDu
04-28-2014, 09:05 PM
Stick a fork in the Pacers, they're DONE.

They certainly appear to be fraudulent, and have looked that way for quite a while.

I thought they would win this series but lose in round 2. But right now (down 25), they will have their backs against the wall against Atlanta!

richardjackson199
04-28-2014, 09:56 PM
Stick a fork in the Pacers, they're DONE.

Mike Scott with 17 points in 16 minutes off the bench for the Hawks so far. 5-6 from 3. Ahh yeah ACC. Wahoo!

Here is a Turtle
04-28-2014, 11:55 PM
Pacers have completely fallen apart. Guess that means my Wizards should have a slightly easier road to the ECF if they take care of business against the Bulls. Hoping if we get there that Lebron does not take it back to 06-08 playoffs where he personally kicked the Wizards out of the postseason.

kAzE
04-29-2014, 10:30 AM
I guess that's what happens when the unstoppable beast, Pero Antic puts up a monster line of 1 point, 2 rebounds in 20 minutes and outplays both of your centers combined. Roy Hibbert and Ian Mahimi combined for 0 points and 2 rebounds (both by Mahinmi) in 28 combined minutes.

The rest of the team really played up to normal standards. David West, George Hill, Paul George, and Lance Stephenson all had off games during this series, but that's to be expected in the playoffs. The Pacers' plunge into mediocrity is largely on Roy Hibbert, who could legitimately be considered a top 3 center as recently as this season. It's really kind of crazy how fast he lost it this year. I don't ever recall a big man falling off a cliff so fast during the course of a season.

JasonEvans
04-29-2014, 01:35 PM
The Pacers were largely built around defense. That is what made them great. They led the NBA in points allowed all season long until they swooned late in the season. In the end, they finished second to the Bulls in points allowed, giving up just 92.3 ppg (the Bulls gave up 91.8). In the playoffs, they have allowed the Hawks to score 95.8 ppg. Recall that scoring is typically down during the playoffs and you will see that Indiana is really slumping on the defensive side of the floor. A year ago, the Pacers only allowed 91.6 ppg in the playoffs. So, they are 4 points worse on D this year versus last year. That's the difference in making the conference finals and a probable first round exit.

And that D has largely been built around their 7-3 shotblocking, shot-altering center who also did a fine job of preventing offensive rebounds. While much attention is given to Hibbert's point production decline, have a look at his shot-blocking numbers:

November - 3.4 bpg (13-1 team record)
December - 1.6 bpg (10-4 record)
January - 2.1 bpg (10-4 record)
February - 2.3 bpg (10-3 record)
March - 1.8 bpg (8-10 record)
April - 1.2 bpg (4-3 record)
Playoffs - 0.6 bpg (2-3 record)

In other words, in months where he blocks more than 2 shots per game, they were 33-8. In months where he is under 2 blocks per game, they were 24-20. That is pretty darn telling!

The rebounds are even more telling:

November - 8.7 rpg (13-1 team record)
December - 7.6 rpg (10-4 record)
January - 6.9 rpg (10-4 record)
February - 7.1 rpg (10-3 record)
March - 4.6 rpg (8-10 record)
April - 3.2 rpg (4-3 record)
Playoffs - 3.4 rpg (2-3 record)

So, they were 43-12 with him getting more than 6 rebounds per game and 14-16 with him recording an average of less than 6 rebounds per game. Yikes!

-Jason "this is officially the most number-filled post in my long posting history on DBR... tommy would be so proud ;) "Evans

MCFinARL
05-02-2014, 08:14 PM
So did I miss something or has Mason Plumlee played not one second in the first half of the Nets-Raptors game? I would have thought he would see at least a few minutes of action. Anyone have any insight into this?

CameronBlue
05-02-2014, 09:59 PM
Is anyone pulling for Dallas only because what the spurs are doing against Kirk Nowitzki would be considered a crime against nature in 13 states? In Scotland an unspoken ritual of the recently betrothed (cloven hooved ruminants may also be involved)?

Henderson
05-02-2014, 10:29 PM
So did I miss something or has Mason Plumlee played not one second in the first half of the Nets-Raptors game? I would have thought he would see at least a few minutes of action. Anyone have any insight into this?

He played a minute late. I think Teletovic is getting his minutes. T has been playing well against the Raptors the last couple games, and Mason is a rookie with the Nets facing elimination. Technically, Teletovic is a rookie too, but the dude is 28 years old with a lot of international experience (I think this is his, what, 12th season as a pro?). And Teletovic has a 3 point shot.

_Gary
05-02-2014, 11:02 PM
He played a minute late. I think Teletovic is getting his minutes. T has been playing well against the Raptors the last couple games, and Mason is a rookie with the Nets facing elimination. Technically, Teletovic is a rookie too, but the dude is 28 years old with a lot of international experience (I think this is his, what, 12th season as a pro?). And Teletovic has a 3 point shot.

It's Blatche that's taking his minutes. The guy has been pretty good in this series (much less of a liability than Mason on the free throw line, and with better offense).

Henderson
05-02-2014, 11:13 PM
It's Blatche that's taking his minutes. The guy has been pretty good in this series (much less of a liability than Mason on the free throw line, and with better offense).

Could be right. And T. isn't "technically a rookie". Don't know what I was thinking there.

Troublemaker
05-04-2014, 12:57 AM
JJ playing great so far in Game 7.

16 points, 2 steals, team-leading +11 plus-minus

Clips down 92-89

DevilWearsPrada
05-04-2014, 01:42 AM
JJ has 14 points in the 2nd half !!!! Let's Go Clippers!!!!

Just a few seconds left in the game!!!!

Des Esseintes
05-04-2014, 02:25 AM
JJ playing great so far in Game 7.

16 points, 2 steals, team-leading +11 plus-minus

Clips down 92-89

I confess I'm surprised what a cypher Harrison Barnes has turned out to be. Many on this board predicted exactly that, and to you I doff my cap. It's only been a year since the Warriors were blitzing through the '13 playoffs with him as small-ball PF. I feared he might be putting it together. But nope! The guy is young, so he has some time yet, but this season has been joyously disappointing on the Black Falcon front.

Dr. Rosenrosen
05-04-2014, 08:15 AM
Nice win by the Clips. JJ with 20 and a +18!

Faison1
05-04-2014, 09:14 AM
Nice win by the Clips. JJ with 20 and a +18!

What little NBA I actually watch, I've caught a few Clipper games. JJ has really expanded his game. I don't know his exact stats, but I think he's averaging over 15 a game. More importantly, he's doing more than spot up 3-pt. shooting. He's become a very good all around player and contributor.

In fact, out of 20 points last night, only 9 came from 3-pointers.

There's not many Duke Alums I enjoy watching more than JJ. While Hanstravel wilts, JJ seems to blossom. Way to go JJ!

dukelifer
05-04-2014, 09:38 AM
What little NBA I actually watch, I've caught a few Clipper games. JJ has really expanded his game. I don't know his exact stats, but I think he's averaging over 15 a game. More importantly, he's doing more than spot up 3-pt. shooting. He's become a very good all around player and contributor.

In fact, out of 20 points last night, only 9 came from 3-pointers.

There's not many Duke Alums I enjoy watching more than JJ. While Hanstravel wilts, JJ seems to blossom. Way to go JJ!

A part of his game that has really expanded is his assists. The guy has always had a high bball IQ- but rarely got to work on that part of his game at Duke. JJ is a very good all around player. Without his tremendous work ethic and willingness to transform his body and work on the little things- he would have been out of the league 3 or 4 years ago. He is also a decent defender, given that he has to often go against bigger and quicker wing guards.

jipops
05-04-2014, 11:53 PM
I confess I'm surprised what a cypher Harrison Barnes has turned out to be. Many on this board predicted exactly that, and to you I doff my cap. It's only been a year since the Warriors were blitzing through the '13 playoffs with him as small-ball PF. I feared he might be putting it together. But nope! The guy is young, so he has some time yet, but this season has been joyously disappointing on the Black Falcon front.

If he had gone to Duke, don't you know we would hear more of the 'K can't produce good pros' crap.

gumbomoop
05-05-2014, 12:53 AM
I confess I'm surprised what a cypher Harrison Barnes has turned out to be. Many on this board predicted exactly that, and to you I doff my cap. It's only been a year since the Warriors were blitzing through the '13 playoffs with him as small-ball PF. I feared he might be putting it together. But nope! The guy is young, so he has some time yet, but this season has been joyously disappointing on the Black Falcon front.

It seemed to me that during his two years at UNC his glaring weakness was a mediocre handle. He didn't want to, and wasn't asked to, play the 4 in college. He was a good, often very good, only rarely excellent, never great wing/SF. It's been 3 and 1/2 years since he arrived in CH. He's had 3 and 1/2 years to improve the very thing he himself publicly acknowledged at the end of his frosh year as his most important flaw. He attended CP3's guard camp in summer 2011, didn't he?

Although I do not follow the NBA, I assume the really good SFs have better handles than Barnes. So maybe his best chance at big minutes is as an undersized 4. Alas, for him, that chance doesn't seem so great, either, as he doesn't seem to relish the hard work of positioning and rebounding.

This is going to sound snarky -- and perhaps is -- but what has always appeared to me to be his self-conscious regal bearing, his apparent need to present himself as one who plays effortlessly, results in inconsistency. He's hoisting himself by his own petard, the canard of that silly Black Falcon, I'm That Very Different Guy, branding crap. He's too cool for his own good. No adult ever took him aside to tell him not to take himself so seriously.

As you say, he has some time yet. Maybe in another 2-3 years he'll have grown up, matured, and become smart, as opposed to as smart and mature as he thinks he is.

(That might be too much snark, but I have thought about it, and don't take it back.)

Des Esseintes
05-05-2014, 02:21 AM
It seemed to me that during his two years at UNC his glaring weakness was a mediocre handle. He didn't want to, and wasn't asked to, play the 4 in college. He was a good, often very good, only rarely excellent, never great wing/SF. It's been 3 and 1/2 years since he arrived in CH. He's had 3 and 1/2 years to improve the very thing he himself publicly acknowledged at the end of his frosh year as his most important flaw. He attended CP3's guard camp in summer 2011, didn't he?

Although I do not follow the NBA, I assume the really good SFs have better handles than Barnes. So maybe his best chance at big minutes is as an undersized 4. Alas, for him, that chance doesn't seem so great, either, as he doesn't seem to relish the hard work of positioning and rebounding.

This is going to sound snarky -- and perhaps is -- but what has always appeared to me to be his self-conscious regal bearing, his apparent need to present himself as one who plays effortlessly, results in inconsistency. He's hoisting himself by his own petard, the canard of that silly Black Falcon, I'm That Very Different Guy, branding crap. He's too cool for his own good. No adult ever took him aside to tell him not to take himself so seriously.

As you say, he has some time yet. Maybe in another 2-3 years he'll have grown up, matured, and become smart, as opposed to as smart and mature as he thinks he is.

(That might be too much snark, but I have thought about it, and don't take it back.)

The Warriors have been, or at least were, very high on him coming into this season. He was a major chip that could have potentially gotten them a win-now veteran, and they were steadfast in refusing to conscion dealing him. They thought big things were coming. And then this year happened, a complete flatline, near as I can tell, with no discernible growth to his game. Perhaps even regression, since his PER fell below 10. I don't think Golden State necessarily envisioned him full-time at the 4, but he played very well in that role during last year's playoffs. Iguodala's presence has obviated some of that need, but we are still left with an odd failure to build. Your point about his handle holding him back is well taken.

heyman25
05-05-2014, 02:29 AM
Redick demonstrated his valuable skills in the win over the Warriors, but Curry's shooting skills shows that JJ can still work on his shot.

Here is more from the Donald Sterling files of being a terrible owner.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/playoffs/2014/05/04/donald-sterling-jj-redick-los-angeles-clippers-owner-racism-ban/8698265/

Des Esseintes
05-05-2014, 02:42 AM
Redick demonstrated his valuable skills in the win over the Warriors, but Curry's shooting skills shows that JJ can still work on his shot.

Here is more from the Donald Sterling files of being a terrible owner.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/playoffs/2014/05/04/donald-sterling-jj-redick-los-angeles-clippers-owner-racism-ban/8698265/

JJ can and will continue to work on his shot. He's not catching Curry. That guy is preternatural, and whoever happens to be the second-best shooter in basketball is a verrry distant second.

kAzE
05-05-2014, 03:14 AM
JJ can and will continue to work on his shot. He's not catching Curry. That guy is preternatural, and whoever happens to be the second-best shooter in basketball is a verrry distant second.

Well, if it was a stand still jump shooting contest, J.J. might actually beat Curry. As far as the ability to shoot the basketball from long distance, there might not be a better shooter in the NBA than J.J. Redick. What separates Curry, as a shooter, is his incredibly quick release, and his insane ability to hit shots that most people would normally categorize as REALLY bad shots. Curry regularly hits contested 30 footers off the dribble, fadeaway 3s off of one foot, floaters from beyond the arc, you name the H.O.R.S.E. shot, he's probably hit it in a live NBA game. So, in a real game, with guys playing defense, Curry is undoubtedly superior, but I'll still take J.J. in an All-Star style 3-point contest over anyone. It's an absolute travesty that he hasn't been invited to compete at the All-Star game yet.

Trey21
05-05-2014, 03:21 AM
It seemed to me that during his two years at UNC his glaring weakness was a mediocre handle. He didn't want to, and wasn't asked to, play the 4 in college. He was a good, often very good, only rarely excellent, never great wing/SF. It's been 3 and 1/2 years since he arrived in CH. He's had 3 and 1/2 years to improve the very thing he himself publicly acknowledged at the end of his frosh year as his most important flaw. He attended CP3's guard camp in summer 2011, didn't he?

Although I do not follow the NBA, I assume the really good SFs have better handles than Barnes. So maybe his best chance at big minutes is as an undersized 4. Alas, for him, that chance doesn't seem so great, either, as he doesn't seem to relish the hard work of positioning and rebounding.

This is going to sound snarky -- and perhaps is -- but what has always appeared to me to be his self-conscious regal bearing, his apparent need to present himself as one who plays effortlessly, results in inconsistency. He's hoisting himself by his own petard, the canard of that silly Black Falcon, I'm That Very Different Guy, branding crap. He's too cool for his own good. No adult ever took him aside to tell him not to take himself so seriously.

As you say, he has some time yet. Maybe in another 2-3 years he'll have grown up, matured, and become smart, as opposed to as smart and mature as he thinks he is.

(That might be too much snark, but I have thought about it, and don't take it back.)

I completely agree with you. His handles are really weak. Kinda jerky in his movements, but he can explode nicely when the situation arises.

I don't mean to disrespect the guy but he just seems hollow. All image, and just flashes of potential. Seems robotic and hollow in his public persona and to be honest I don't think he'll ever be a winner. He is talented and he has some skill but I don't think he'll ever really be a special player.

Coach K/Roy talked about "it" and how Jabari found "it". I don't think Barnes has "it". He might pull it together and become a serviceable player but I think he just thinks way too much and the game just doesn't come naturally to him.

Des Esseintes
05-05-2014, 03:34 AM
Well, if it was a stand still jump shooting contest, J.J. might actually beat Curry. As far as the ability to shoot the basketball from long distance, there might not be a better shooter in the NBA than J.J. Redick. What separates Curry, as a shooter, is his incredibly quick release, and his insane ability to hit shots that most people would normally categorize as REALLY bad shots. Curry regularly hits contested 30 footers off the dribble, fadeaway 3s off of one foot, floaters from beyond the arc, you name the H.O.R.S.E. shot, he's probably hit it in a live NBA game. So, in a real game, with guys playing defense, Curry is undoubtedly superior, but I'll still take J.J. in an All-Star style 3-point contest over anyone. It's an absolute travesty that he hasn't been invited to compete at the All-Star game yet.

The ability to hit from distance with pressure all over you probably means you are *also* superlative when given time. I mean, why would we assume JJ is the better standstill shooter of the two? If you can hit the higher degree-of-difficulty shots better than a person, in all likelihood you will hit the lower degree-of-difficulty shots better than him too. Thinking otherwise is the kind of logic that had Arizona fans arguing Salim Stoudamire was a better shooter than JJ their senior year of college.

More importantly, look at actual results. As the #1 option on his team and with the most dangerous gun in the league, Curry is the prime focus of every defense. Nobody is giving that guy space. Nevertheless, he has shot 44% from deep for his career. Which is crazytimes. JJ, who has never had to bear the brunt of being a first option and has surely enjoyed way more time to get his shots off than Curry, has shot 39% on threes for his career. In fact, Curry's least accurate season at 42.4% is better than JJ's most accurate season of 41.8%. This just isn't a contest, and I don't think monkeying around with the parameters of situation and allotted time will get it any closer to being a contest. I love JJ, but in Curry we are talking about a historically accurate shooter. What Redick was to college, Curry is to the pros.

dukelifer
05-05-2014, 06:23 AM
The ability to hit from distance with pressure all over you probably means you are *also* superlative when given time. I mean, why would we assume JJ is the better standstill shooter of the two? If you can hit the higher degree-of-difficulty shots better than a person, in all likelihood you will hit the lower degree-of-difficulty shots better than him too. Thinking otherwise is the kind of logic that had Arizona fans arguing Salim Stoudamire was a better shooter than JJ their senior year of college.

More importantly, look at actual results. As the #1 option on his team and with the most dangerous gun in the league, Curry is the prime focus of every defense. Nobody is giving that guy space. Nevertheless, he has shot 44% from deep for his career. Which is crazytimes. JJ, who has never had to bear the brunt of being a first option and has surely enjoyed way more time to get his shots off than Curry, has shot 39% on threes for his career. In fact, Curry's least accurate season at 42.4% is better than JJ's most accurate season of 41.8%. This just isn't a contest, and I don't think monkeying around with the parameters of situation and allotted time will get it any closer to being a contest. I love JJ, but in Curry we are talking about a historically accurate shooter. What Redick was to college, Curry is to the pros.
JJ has a better stroke- better form- but Curry can hit anything from almost anywhere. He is the most creative, long distance shooter of the dribble in the game. When Curry is on a scoring flurry- he is a must see- almost magical. I have always wondered what it would be like if you could make every shot you threw up in a game- some nights, Curry has a stretch where he does that.

Henderson
05-05-2014, 06:45 AM
I love JJ, but in Curry we are talking about a historically accurate shooter. What Redick was to college, Curry is to the pros.

Curry is the #3 all time percentage leader in 3 pt. shooting in the NBA. J.J. isn't in the top 50 at this point. In fact, Del Curry had a higher percentage than J.J. does now.

But the ability to hit from deep has historically been seen as a specialty skill and not generously rewarded by HOF voters. Neither of the two guys ahead of Curry in career percentage (Steve Kerr and Hubert Davis) is ever likely to be inducted (though I think a case could be made for Kerr -- 5 rings with two teams to go with his "most accurate 3 pt. shooter" title). In fact, of the 50 players with the highest 3 pt. shooting percentage, only 2 (Drazen Petrovic and Reggie Miller) are in the HOF. That number will go up by 2 or 3 as others on the list become eligible.

But the point is that "greatness" as a player, at least for HOF voters, requires more than 3 pt. accuracy. It's a combination of things over the course of a career. Steph Curry is a truly great 3 pt. shooter, but if history is a guide, he can't just ride that to the HOF. J.J. is a good NBA player and a good (but not historically great) NBA 3 pt. shooter.

Reilly
05-05-2014, 11:36 AM
Steve Kerr started 30 of the 910 NBA games he played in, and had a career scoring average of 6 points per game.

Steph Curry has started 330 of the 336 NBA games he's played in, and has a career scoring average of 20.3 ppg.

If Steph averages 20 ppg for a long career, I'm guessing he'll get into the HOF. It won't be b/c voters finally rewarded long-distance shooting.

Interesting question: how many guys who averaged 20 ppg over a long career (say, 10-12 years) are not in the HOF? 21 ppg seems to be a dividing line, w/ Shaq and AI being the only retired players at that level not yet inducted (and they will be -- didn't AI get voted in just recently)? Some scorers at the 20 ppg mark not in the Hall: Chris Webber, World B Free, Spencer Haywood ...

Billy Dat
05-05-2014, 02:33 PM
Wow, what a first round. Throw in the Sterling Banishment and there has never been a more newsworthy set of "Sweet 16" series, right? As always, I am enjoying the banter here at DBR and wanted to comment on a few of the topics being discussed:

RE: Barnes
Agree with all that has been said. He really has been billed as a kid with a supreme work ethic so now he has to improve his deficiencies (if he can), or settle into a different role at a drastically different level of pay then he was probably targeting. Under the new cap, there seem to be max guys and everyone else. Will he be a $6MM per player or can he jump to the $8MM - $10MM per club?

RE: Curry
He's going to be on an all NBA team this year, maybe even first team. Those are the designations that form the foundation, along with stats, of a Hall of Fame career.

Aside from some DBR posters rooting preferences (sorry CDu and Jason), we kind of got the second round we wanted, right? Heat v Nets is more interesting than Heat v Raps (with a plus of seeing Mason, hopefully). I'd rather watch the Thunder than the Griz, the Clips than the Warriors (due to JJ). The Pacers surely have a better chance to challenge the Heat than the Hawks, the Wiz are an exciting mix of youth and vet leadership, the Blazers have gelled nicely, and seeing how far this Spurs team can go, especially if we can get a Spurs v Heat rematch, is intriguing.

I am psyched for Round 2, but prepared for it to not quite measure up to Round 1.

FWIW, the 4th quarter duel between Tony Parker and Monta Ellis in Game 6 was epic. Also, Lillard's ridiculous Game 7 buzzer beater was crazy, I can't believe they weren't more careful about how they set up to guard that play - he basically sprinted, unobstructed, to the space and was able to catch-and-shoot with little resistance. Worried about giving up the tie, the Rockets gave up everything....boo..hoo.

Billy Dat
05-06-2014, 09:48 AM
One nice aspect of new teams making the playoffs is getting more frequent and extended looks at young players just breaking into the national spotlight. Brad Beal really impressed me last night. I didn't appreciate what a good shooter is he nor how quick he is. The Wall, Beal, Andre Miller rotation is fun to watch. It's hard to know whether the Wiz game 1 road win says more about their rise or the Pacers incredible fall....probably more about the latter.

Excellent road win for the Clippers. Will the Sterling Banishment actually become a means for this team to find another gear? Watching JJ sprint around screens never gets old.

flyingdutchdevil
05-06-2014, 11:49 AM
One nice aspect of new teams making the playoffs is getting more frequent and extended looks at young players just breaking into the national spotlight. Brad Beal really impressed me last night. I didn't appreciate what a good shooter is he nor how quick he is. The Wall, Beal, Andre Miller rotation is fun to watch. It's hard to know whether the Wiz game 1 road win says more about their rise or the Pacers incredible fall....probably more about the latter.

Excellent road win for the Clippers. Will the Sterling Banishment actually become a means for this team to find another gear? Watching JJ sprint around screens never gets old.

Watching JJ is a thing of beauty. He is old school - right time, right place, hustling for shots, etc etc. JJ will never be a Chris Paul, Blake Griffin, or Jamal Crawford type of player, ie beating opponents with the dribble, using athleticism to gain an advantage, or being creative in one-on-one. But JJ is so smart, so calculated, and understands his opponents and, more importantly, his teammates better than 99% of NBA players.

Since coming to the NBA, JJ's defense, assists, layups, and leadership have all improved. Stan van Gundy needs another job; what he did with JJ was amazing.

My favorite modern Duke player who is having more success than anyone thought.

Legit question - did anyone here see JJ having a more successful NBA career than Shelden? I sure as hell didn't...

_Gary
05-06-2014, 11:54 AM
Legit question - did anyone here see JJ having a more successful NBA career than Shelden? I sure as hell didn't...

I did. Mainly because I felt Shelden was way undersized to play PF, much less C, in the NBA. Unfortunately he didn't have great hops either so that exasperated the issue. Admittedly I didn't know if JJ would be able to produce at the level he is now, but I did honestly expect him to have a better shot than Shelden. But I love both of them and am thankful they wore Duke blue!

Billy Dat
05-06-2014, 12:09 PM
Legit question - did anyone here see JJ having a more successful NBA career than Shelden? I sure as hell didn't...

I am kind of with Gary in that I didn't think Shelden was going to be that great. I will say that JJ did a much much better job at figuring out his place in the NBA than did Shelden. I think you are right to credit Stan Van with helping him figure it out, and he obviously deserves the credit for putting in the work to make it happen. "Guy capable of starting on an NBA title team" is a description with a range of possibilities, but it does typically put one into a certain class, and I am glad he worked so hard to get there.

Bill Simmons had a good, long, podcast with Ric Bucher that posted yesterday:
http://espn.go.com/espnradio/grantland/player?id=10886627

I post it because Bucher is a de-facto beat guy with the Warriors due to his being based in the Bay Area and he had a lot of interesting insights into both Curry and Barnes, the subjects of many of the recent posts in this thread. Some interesting tidbits that hadn't really been teased out:
-Bucher reminded all that Curry has been injury free this year for the first time in a long time. It's a big part of why he had an All NBA year
-Building on Des' early post about the Iguodala trade, Bucher paints it as kind of a disaster based on what they gave up, his production (below what they might have hoped for) and the potential ill effect it had on Barnes' game (he may be better as a starter).
-Simmons postulated that maybe Barnes' ceiling is big stats, high volume shooter dude on bad teams. That made me think of one of our own....Maggette.

CDu
05-06-2014, 01:57 PM
Wow, what a first round. Throw in the Sterling Banishment and there has never been a more newsworthy set of "Sweet 16" series, right? As always, I am enjoying the banter here at DBR and wanted to comment on a few of the topics being discussed:

RE: Barnes
Agree with all that has been said. He really has been billed as a kid with a supreme work ethic so now he has to improve his deficiencies (if he can), or settle into a different role at a drastically different level of pay then he was probably targeting. Under the new cap, there seem to be max guys and everyone else. Will he be a $6MM per player or can he jump to the $8MM - $10MM per club?

RE: Curry
He's going to be on an all NBA team this year, maybe even first team. Those are the designations that form the foundation, along with stats, of a Hall of Fame career.

Aside from some DBR posters rooting preferences (sorry CDu and Jason), we kind of got the second round we wanted, right? Heat v Nets is more interesting than Heat v Raps (with a plus of seeing Mason, hopefully). I'd rather watch the Thunder than the Griz, the Clips than the Warriors (due to JJ). The Pacers surely have a better chance to challenge the Heat than the Hawks, the Wiz are an exciting mix of youth and vet leadership, the Blazers have gelled nicely, and seeing how far this Spurs team can go, especially if we can get a Spurs v Heat rematch, is intriguing.

I am psyched for Round 2, but prepared for it to not quite measure up to Round 1.

FWIW, the 4th quarter duel between Tony Parker and Monta Ellis in Game 6 was epic. Also, Lillard's ridiculous Game 7 buzzer beater was crazy, I can't believe they weren't more careful about how they set up to guard that play - he basically sprinted, unobstructed, to the space and was able to catch-and-shoot with little resistance. Worried about giving up the tie, the Rockets gave up everything....boo..hoo.

Yeah, even as a Bulls fan, I'm not that sad that my guys got eliminated. I knew as soon as Rose went down that we were no longer a contender. Ultimately, we needed Rose to win the title, and without him that wasn't happening. So the Bulls getting knocked out by a better team in the Wizards (and to be honest, I think they stand a better chance against the Heat than the Pacers do at this point) only hurts a tiny bit. I fully admit that the deeper rounds of the playoffs are better off without this year's (post-Rose, post-Deng) Bulls. Nobody enjoys watching an offensively-deficient group of hustle players try to scheme and effort their way into 81-79 wins in the playoffs.

Right now, there are several teams that are really interesting to watch: the Heat to see if they can Three-Peat; the Wizards because they are just a really talented, well-balanced team with some really good individual players; the Nets just to see if they can give the Heat trouble; the Spurs just because they are like a metronome in their efficiency; the Thunder to see if Durant and Westbrook can get over the hump; the Clippers because Chris Paul is amazing and he has been surrounded by a near-perfect group of complements to his offensive game; the Warriors because you never know what Curry might do.

Honestly, outside of the Pacers, there isn't a "boring" team to watch. And even with the Pacers, it is kind of fun to watch how useless Roy Hibbert has become.

FerryFor50
05-06-2014, 02:27 PM
Honestly, outside of the Pacers, there isn't a "boring" team to watch. And even with the Pacers, it is kind of fun to watch how useless Roy Hibbert has become.

We are seeing what happens when refs start calling him for the fouls he was committing all last season when we kept hearing the term "verticality."

Can't stay on the floor because he can't defend without fouling.

luvdahops
05-06-2014, 02:43 PM
The Warriors have been, or at least were, very high on him coming into this season. He was a major chip that could have potentially gotten them a win-now veteran, and they were steadfast in refusing to conscion dealing him. They thought big things were coming. And then this year happened, a complete flatline, near as I can tell, with no discernible growth to his game. Perhaps even regression, since his PER fell below 10. I don't think Golden State necessarily envisioned him full-time at the 4, but he played very well in that role during last year's playoffs. Iguodala's presence has obviated some of that need, but we are still left with an odd failure to build. Your point about his handle holding him back is well taken.

Draymond Green has also proven to be a better option as a stretch 4 and clearly passed Barnes in the postseason rotation. Green is a considerably better defender and rebounder, and while an inferior shooter, he does have 3 point range and is a more versatile offensive player (i.e. moves well without the ball, can create off the dribble, etc.). Green also plays with the consistent effort and toughness that the Black Falcon has always lacked.

Faison1
05-06-2014, 03:08 PM
RE: Barnes
Agree with all that has been said. He really has been billed as a kid with a supreme work ethic so now he has to improve his deficiencies (if he can), or settle into a different role at a drastically different level of pay then he was probably targeting. Under the new cap, there seem to be max guys and everyone else. Will he be a $6MM per player or can he jump to the $8MM - $10MM per club?

Surprisingly, the stats for The Black Falcon and Kyle Singler are nearly identical. Same minutes, points, rebounds. But, there's three main differences between the two:

1. Salary: The Black Pigeon pulls down about $3mm while Kyle brings in just north of $1mm

2. Perceived Upside: The knock on Kyle has always been that he's reached his ceiling

3. Hype: The Black Dodo Bird's self-indulgent strategy seems to have paid off in the form of better contracts

Having said that, who would I want as a teammate? Obviously, Kyle, because he seems like a good guy and I bet he passes the ball a lot more. But, the ability to hit a big shot occasionally has its benefits, too.

Regardless, I will continue to root for the bird to remain flightless and unappealing.

Billy Dat
05-06-2014, 03:15 PM
Surprisingly, the stats for The Black Falcon and Kyle Singler are nearly identical. Same minutes, points, rebounds. But, there's three main differences between the two:

1. Salary: The Black Pigeon pulls down about $3mm while Kyle brings in just north of $1mm

2. Perceived Upside: The knock on Kyle has always been that he's reached his ceiling

3. Hype: The Black Dodo Bird's self-indulgent strategy seems to have paid off in the form of better contracts

Having said that, who would I want as a teammate? Obviously, Kyle, because he seems like a good guy and I bet he passes the ball a lot more. But, the ability to hit a big shot occasionally has its benefits, too.

Regardless, I will continue to root for the bird to remain flightless and unappealing.

I echo your comments about Kyle. Here's a great recap on his season that talks about him someday being a non-starting rotation player on a title caliber team, a role I think he was born to play:
http://www.detroitbadboys.com/2014/4/29/5664656/detroit-pistons-2013-14-player-grades-kyle-singler

He could obviously play a larger role on a lesser team, but considering his winner mentality, I'd love to see him on a winner.

NSDukeFan
05-06-2014, 07:55 PM
I am kind of with Gary in that I didn't think Shelden was going to be that great. I will say that JJ did a much much better job at figuring out his place in the NBA than did Shelden. I think you are right to credit Stan Van with helping him figure it out, and he obviously deserves the credit for putting in the work to make it happen. "Guy capable of starting on an NBA title team" is a description with a range of possibilities, but it does typically put one into a certain class, and I am glad he worked so hard to get there.

Bill Simmons had a good, long, podcast with Ric Bucher that posted yesterday:
http://espn.go.com/espnradio/grantland/player?id=10886627

I post it because Bucher is a de-facto beat guy with the Warriors due to his being based in the Bay Area and he had a lot of interesting insights into both Curry and Barnes, the subjects of many of the recent posts in this thread. Some interesting tidbits that hadn't really been teased out:
-Bucher reminded all that Curry has been injury free this year for the first time in a long time. It's a big part of why he had an All NBA year
-Building on Des' early post about the Iguodala trade, Bucher paints it as kind of a disaster based on what they gave up, his production (below what they might have hoped for) and the potential ill effect it had on Barnes' game (he may be better as a starter).
-Simmons postulated that maybe Barnes' ceiling is big stats, high volume shooter dude on bad teams. That made me think of one of our own....Maggette.

I was wrong on two guys you commented on in your last couple of posts. I really thought Shelden was going to have a successful NBA career as a solid defensive player/rebounder that would get you garbage buckets and some post ups. I also couldn't figure out why Beal was getting rated so much more highly than Rivers. Maybe that's part of the reason I post on this board and am a fan rather than a GM or talent evaluator.

COYS
05-06-2014, 09:52 PM
-Simmons postulated that maybe Barnes' ceiling is big stats, high volume shooter dude on bad teams. That made me think of one of our own....Maggette.

Granted, Barnes career is still young. But Corey was actually a very efficient player for the majority of his career and was posting a 17.4 PER with one season of 18.7 PER in the book already at the same age that Barnes is now. He was a free throw machine, ranking high in the nba on free throw attempts per field goal attempted for a long time. His career PER was 17.9 and included 7 seasons over 18, two over 20 and one at 19.9. He was no HOFer, but he was an efficient scorer on the offensive end.

Corey didn't pass much, but he was a solid rebounder. His biggest problem is that he could never stay healthy. His career high for games played was 77, which he set during his rookie season.

If Corey had developed a better handle, improved his court vision, and/or developed a more reliable three point shot, he could have been really special. With his athleticism, any other skills would have made him almost impossible to guard. That said, while perhaps he never quite reached his full potential, comparing him to Barnes is an injustice to the type of player that Corey was.

luvdahops
05-06-2014, 10:15 PM
Granted, Barnes career is still young. But Corey was actually a very efficient player for the majority of his career and was posting a 17.4 PER with one season of 18.7 PER in the book already at the same age that Barnes is now. He was a free throw machine, ranking high in the nba on free throw attempts per field goal attempted for a long time. His career PER was 17.9 and included 7 seasons over 18, two over 20 and one at 19.9. He was no HOFer, but he was an efficient scorer on the offensive end.

Corey didn't pass much, but he was a solid rebounder. His biggest problem is that he could never stay healthy. His career high for games played was 77, which he set during his rookie season.

If Corey had developed a better handle, improved his court vision, and/or developed a more reliable three point shot, he could have been really special. With his athleticism, any other skills would have made him almost impossible to guard. That said, while perhaps he never quite reached his full potential, comparing him to Barnes is an injustice to the type of player that Corey was.

Agree with your points. Maggette was a great driver who scored quite a few points at the FT line, averaging 6.8 FTA and 5.6 FTM for his career (82%) in 28.2 mpg, a big contributor to his efficiency ratings. He didn't have a great handle, but did have a killer first step, not to mention great hops and the strength to finish in traffic and through contact.

Barnes has averaged just 2.3 FTA per game thus far in his career, despite comparable PT (26.8 mpg). As mentioned by others, his handle is shaky, and he also lacks quickness generally, and first step quickness in particular. So he is a much less versatile scorer than Corey, something that is unlikely to change, even if he gets traded to a weaker team. He may put up more points, but will likely remain a low efficiency player (his career PER so far is just 10.4). Many NBA observers consider Barnes to be "very athletic", which has always puzzled me a bit. While he does have very good hops and straight ahead speed (as showed at the 2012 Draft Combine), the lack of quickness has always seemed pretty obvious, as is the fact that he rarely PLAYS athletically (i.e. clearly dominating an opponent or standing out among his teammates physically), whether in college or the NBA.

BobbyFan
05-07-2014, 12:17 AM
I'm not sure what the odds are against the Heat making the Finals, but it should be primarily based on the chances of a significant injury. Their road to the Finals should be relatively straightforward.

An argument can be made that, entering the playoffs, Miami was the only Eastern Conference team on the level of any of the eight Western Conference playoff teams (and perhaps even Phoenix). The quality of play in Western Conference first round series was ridiculous. At minimum, Memphis and Dallas are on the short list of the best #7 and #8 seeds of all time.

That said, Miami is still the best team, regardless of which conference they play in.

Reilly
05-07-2014, 06:41 AM
I'm not sure what the odds are against the Heat making the Finals ...

Per http://www.basketball-reference.com/, the Heat have a 91.1% chance of making the conference finals, and a 28% chance of winning The Finals*, so I guess their chance of making The Finals* is somewhere between 28% and 91.1%.

S-R gives the Heat the best chance of winning The Finals* at 28%, with the Spurs having the next best shot at 25.6%.

*I've never before referred to the NBA championship as The Finals, but I believe that's what the NBA does, so thought I'd try it. Feels a little weird.

Billy Dat
05-07-2014, 09:48 AM
RE: Maggette
I appreciate you guys passionately defending Corey. I agree that he can look upon his NBA career as a huge success. When all is done, he may wind up with the better career than Barnes. But, my contention was that he was a big stats on bad teams guy, and I think its hard to refute that fact. It doesn't mean that's what he wanted to be, or that it is all his fault, but he only played in 12 playoff games in a 12 year career. I agree that injuries played a big role.

It was great to see Shane in the starting line-up again yesterday. We must treasure these last few precious games we will ever see him play. I am definitely pulling for him to get a 3rd ring. If not him, then let it be JJ and the Clips. We are in a great era of Duke players in the NBA and it would be nice to add to our NBA championship ring collection - which I think now sits at 4.

With the Spurs delivering a severe beat down, it will be curious to see if the Blazers effectively counter punch. Yesterday's game was over before it started.

Zach Lowe fans, if you haven't already, definitely check out his new podcast, the Lowe Post. He seems to be putting them out a bit sporadically, but I think he'd like to knock out one per week:
http://espn.go.com/espnradio/grantland/player?id=10892666

flyingdutchdevil
05-07-2014, 09:55 AM
RE: Maggette
I appreciate you guys passionately defending Corey. I agree that he can look upon his NBA career as a huge success. When all is done, he may wind up with the better career than Barnes. But, my contention was that he was a big stats on bad teams guy, and I think its hard to refute that fact. It doesn't mean that's what he wanted to be, or that it is all his fault, but he only played in 12 playoff games in a 12 year career. I agree that injuries played a big role.

It was great to see Shane in the starting line-up again yesterday. We must treasure these last few precious games we will ever see him play. I am definitely pulling for him to get a 3rd ring. If not him, then let it be JJ and the Clips. We are in a great era of Duke players in the NBA and it would be nice to add to our NBA championship ring collection - which I think now sits at 4.

With the Spurs delivering a severe beat down, it will be curious to see if the Blazers effectively counter punch. Yesterday's game was over before it started.

Zach Lowe fans, if you haven't already, definitely check out his new podcast, the Lowe Post. He seems to be putting them out a bit sporadically, but I think he'd like to knock out one per week:
http://espn.go.com/espnradio/grantland/player?id=10892666

Isn't it only 3 rings: Danny Ferry and Battier x2? Am I missing someone?

Tripping William
05-07-2014, 09:57 AM
Isn't it only 3 rings: Danny Ferry and Battier x2? Am I missing someone?

Jeff Mullins, 1975 Golden State Warriors.

Billy Dat
05-07-2014, 10:04 AM
Jeff Mullins, 1975 Golden State Warriors.

Good call. I had never seen a list of top college programs in this category, but I found one that is at least a few years old, and aside from some major blue bloods at the top, it is fairly random:
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/61188

It would be nice to add to our fairly puny total.

g-money
05-07-2014, 10:56 PM
JJ on fire in the first half of game 2 against OKC: 6-8 FG, 17 points. He just hit a three over the outstretched arms of the NBA MVP. Way to go JJ!

Also: I would be quite pleased if the W's can hire the analyst of tonight's game before the Knicks do.

Edit: Apparently JJ is really "shooting the lights out" in OKC.

brlftz
05-08-2014, 08:22 AM
JJ on fire in the first half of game 2 against OKC: 6-8 FG, 17 points. He just hit a three over the outstretched arms of the NBA MVP. Way to go JJ!

Also: I would be quite pleased if the W's can hire the analyst of tonight's game before the Knicks do.

Edit: Apparently JJ is really "shooting the lights out" in OKC.

he WAS on fire, and yet once again he got pulled early and sat much of the first half. i haven't watched a ton of clippers games, but every game i've watched jj is the first starter to come out, no matter how hot he is. he had 10 points in ~ the first 3 minutes of the game, but then got iced on the bench. he ended with 18, but the way he was shooting i thought he could have had 30.

Billy Dat
05-08-2014, 09:34 AM
he WAS on fire, and yet once again he got pulled early and sat much of the first half. i haven't watched a ton of clippers games, but every game i've watched jj is the first starter to come out, no matter how hot he is. he had 10 points in ~ the first 3 minutes of the game, but then got iced on the bench. he ended with 18, but the way he was shooting i thought he could have had 30.

He hasn't been back from injury for too long, and the rotation really changed while he was out. NBA coaches are pretty reluctant to mess with a rotation that is working because the players seem to perform much better when they can prepare for exactly the role they are being asked to play. Crawford is a key piece of that team so I am sure having him aware and ready to come in the game at a certain time is key. This is an interesting illustration of how coaching is far more than Xs and Os.

brlftz
05-08-2014, 09:41 AM
Excellent point, hadn't considered that aspect of it. With Paul picking up two quick fouls, though, perhaps he could've gone with a jj/Crawford backcourt for a bit. But yeah, improvising like that isn't likely at this point.

JasonEvans
05-08-2014, 09:49 AM
Raise your hand if you had Hibbert coming back from the worst 2 months by a NBA starting center ever to suddenly become a beast again... anyone?

What the heck was that?!?! Did the aliens who kidnapped the real Roy Hibbert just bring him back to Earth? He scored about as many points last night (28) as he did the first 6 games against the Hawks (24). Crazy.

-Jason "still, you gotta like Washington in this series -- even with Hibbert going off, they only lost by 4 in Indiana" Evans

Billy Dat
05-08-2014, 10:18 AM
Raise your hand if you had Hibbert coming back from the worst 2 months by a NBA starting center ever to suddenly become a beast again... anyone?

What the heck was that?!?! Did the aliens who kidnapped the real Roy Hibbert just bring him back to Earth? He scored about as many points last night (28) as he did the first 6 games against the Hawks (24). Crazy.

-Jason "still, you gotta like Washington in this series -- even with Hibbert going off, they only lost by 4 in Indiana" Evans

He said Paul George took him fishing the day before and that did the trick. I guess it was too cold in Indiana to get that boat out on the water before now?

That anecdote is a good excuse to post a link to the Kevin Durant NBA MVP Acceptance Speech, from Monday, where he spent 20+ minutes talking, and crying, about each of his teammates and how much they mean to him. It is as moving a speech as you are likely to see from an all world superstar, just incredible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvKDw-EkfYg

superdave
05-08-2014, 10:35 AM
He said Paul George took him fishing the day before and that did the trick. I guess it was too cold in Indiana to get that boat out on the water before now?

That anecdote is a good excuse to post a link to the Kevin Durant NBA MVP Acceptance Speech, from Monday, where he spent 20+ minutes talking, and crying, about each of his teammates and how much they mean to him. It is as moving a speech as you are likely to see from an all world superstar, just incredible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvKDw-EkfYg

Durant really is a great contrast to Lebron who held a tv special to announce his free agency decision and Jordan who used his HOF speech to trash his former teammates. I like Durant more every year.

Trey21
05-08-2014, 11:36 AM
Durant's speech was excellent. Hard not to be moved by that. He is so humble and you could tell every word from that speech came from the heart. Not only is he HOFer but he has perspective on the bigger things in life, and he seems like a genuinely great guy. Without a doubt one of my favorite players in the NBA if not my favorite.

Him and Westbrook put on a show last night. If they can find that balance between them (both were a assist away from a triple-double) then OKC will eventually win a championship. OKC's role players stepped up in a big way too last night. The Clippers-Thunder series will hopefully go down to the wire. Both of these teams are compelling to watch and really highlight the NBA style of play well.

superdave
05-08-2014, 12:05 PM
Durant's speech was excellent. Hard not to be moved by that. He is so humble and you could tell every word from that speech came from the heart. Not only is he HOFer but he has perspective on the bigger things in life, and he seems like a genuinely great guy. Without a doubt one of my favorite players in the NBA if not my favorite.

Him and Westbrook put on a show last night. If they can find that balance between them (both were a assist away from a triple-double) then OKC will eventually win a championship. OKC's role players stepped up in a big way too last night. The Clippers-Thunder series will hopefully go down to the wire. Both of these teams are compelling to watch and really highlight the NBA style of play well.

Even Perk played well. 8 points, 9 boards, only 2 fouls.

I have been on the OKC bandwagon the last few years. I would love to see either them or San Anton knock Miami off in the Finals. I do hope - regardless - that we get a Finals as good as last season's.

NSDukeFan
05-08-2014, 10:21 PM
RE: Maggette
I appreciate you guys passionately defending Corey. I agree that he can look upon his NBA career as a huge success. When all is done, he may wind up with the better career than Barnes. But, my contention was that he was a big stats on bad teams guy, and I think its hard to refute that fact. It doesn't mean that's what he wanted to be, or that it is all his fault, but he only played in 12 playoff games in a 12 year career. I agree that injuries played a big role.

It was great to see Shane in the starting line-up again yesterday. We must treasure these last few precious games we will ever see him play. I am definitely pulling for him to get a 3rd ring. If not him, then let it be JJ and the Clips. We are in a great era of Duke players in the NBA and it would be nice to add to our NBA championship ring collection - which I think now sits at 4.

With the Spurs delivering a severe beat down, it will be curious to see if the Blazers effectively counter punch. Yesterday's game was over before it started.

Zach Lowe fans, if you haven't already, definitely check out his new podcast, the Lowe Post. He seems to be putting them out a bit sporadically, but I think he'd like to knock out one per week:
http://espn.go.com/espnradio/grantland/player?id=10892666

Thanks for mentioning the podcast. Hearing Zach Lowe and Jeff Van Gundy talk strategy was about the best way to spend my time ironing. I am wishing all the success for JJ, Shane and Mason in this round, but I must confess that I am cheering for the Spurs. I really enjoy watching Duncan play, like Popovich a lot and love watching Ginobli play. I also love that they are all about team and feel that Duncan has set a great selfless example there.

Billy Dat
05-13-2014, 09:46 AM
Thanks for mentioning the podcast. Hearing Zach Lowe and Jeff Van Gundy talk strategy was about the best way to spend my time ironing. I am wishing all the success for JJ, Shane and Mason in this round, but I must confess that I am cheering for the Spurs. I really enjoy watching Duncan play, like Popovich a lot and love watching Ginobli play. I also love that they are all about team and feel that Duncan has set a great selfless example there.

NS - The Spurs are indeed looking like the team to beat...last night aside. Of course, the playoffs are strange that way, a team can go from looking like world beaters to something other depending on the match-up and the night. The Blazers managed to avoid the sweep. The Spurs being the savvy group they are should be pulling out all the stops to close this out the next game as the Clips/Thunder will go at least two more.

Speaking of which, epic Game 4 which gives us a big game 5 tonight. Amazing that the Clips could guard KD with Chris Paul and not pay the price. The Scott Brooks offensive schemes will continue to come under harsh criticism, as will KD's lack of a post-up game. I'd like to see JJ get back on track tonight...speaking of which.

The Heat/Nets series has become a bust for us Duke fans. I was very excited to see Shane starting but his lack of 3 point production is limiting his PT. Mason is stuck to the bench. The Nets are clogging the lane and forcing the Heat to beat them from outside. Aside from Lebron's workmanlike 49 points (it is amazing what we have come to expect), Bosh's 3, on a laser assist from Lebron, was the game winner. He showed amazing trust going back to Bosh who had just missed his prior two in a row, but everyone needs to contribute to win a title. Kenny Smith said it well in the post game, Lebron makes the right read 95% of the time. After Bosh's two misses, he could have tried to play hero ball, but he made the right pass and Bosh earned that trust by draining it. Per Kenny, title teams make the right basketball play most of the time. I liked that insight. Right now, the Heat look one dimensional and old, but these things change...

Speaking of a team that has flipped a switch, all of a sudden the Pacers look like a real challenge for Miami. Anything can happen as these series are not done yet, but with each at 3-1 and Indiana looking like a formidable Eastern Conference power again, maybe we're going to get the Indiana/Miami rematch we all anticipated for the first half of the year.

wilson
05-13-2014, 09:56 AM
Bosh's 3, on a laser assist from Lebron, was the game winner. He showed amazing trust going back to Bosh who had just missed his prior two in a row, but everyone needs to contribute to win a title. Kenny Smith said it well in the post game, Lebron makes the right read 95% of the time. After Bosh's two misses, he could have tried to play hero ball, but he made the right pass and Bosh earned that trust by draining it. Per Kenny, title teams make the right basketball play most of the time.There's a great piece up on ESPN.com this morning dissecting the importance of that pass and making a broader point about LeBron's basketball IQ. A really nice, insightful read.
http://espn.go.com/nba/dailydime/_/page/dime-140512/lebron-49-points-comes-dish

rsvman
05-13-2014, 10:01 AM
This is a slightly delayed rant about the Clippers/Thunder game on Saturday.

Does anybody besides me feel like Griffin fouls about two times on every possession, offensive or defensive? That if the refs called fouls like they do in college that he would foul out twice in the first quarter? I just find it very annoying.

I'm biased a bit because I am cheering hard for the Thunder, but I think the Thunder win that game if Griffin is reined in a bit. Half the time on offense he fouls the defender twice or three times and then bullies up a shot and gets the "and 1," too.

He's the Mark Gasol of the Clippers.

/rant

Des Esseintes
05-13-2014, 10:37 AM
This is a slightly delayed rant about the Clippers/Thunder game on Saturday.

Does anybody besides me feel like Griffin fouls about two times on every possession, offensive or defensive? That if the refs called fouls like they do in college that he would foul out twice in the first quarter? I just find it very annoying.

I'm biased a bit because I am cheering hard for the Thunder, but I think the Thunder win that game if Griffin is reined in a bit. Half the time on offense he fouls the defender twice or three times and then bullies up a shot and gets the "and 1," too.

He's the Mark Gasol of the Clippers.

/rant
Right? Seems like every time they play, there's Blake, ramming his testicles into Serge Ibaka's knuckles.

Steven43
05-13-2014, 11:08 AM
Does anybody besides me feel like Griffin fouls about two times on every possession, offensive or defensive? That if the refs called fouls like they do in college that he would foul out twice in the first quarter? I just find it very annoying.

While I haven't focused enough on Griffin's play recently to have an informed opinion, I certainly would not be surprised if what you suggest is accurate. However, I am really REALLY glad that the NBA refs do not call the game nearly as tightly and ticky-tacky as almost all college refs do.

Yes, the NBA refs let many things go that could technically be considered fouls according to the rule book, but the game just has so much of a better flow and continuity that it is well worth it to let the small stuff go. The NBA refs are experienced and wise enough that they aren't worried about fan and media complaints on minor fouls not being called. NBA refs level of confidence is high enough that they don't feel the need to overcompensate and act like The Man by calling every little bit of contact like so many insecure college officials do.

The truth is that the college game has become almost unbearable to watch. Foul after foul after foul is called on the most minute bit of contact. It's absolutely ridiculous. The flow of the college game is so choppy, slow, and constantly interrupted that it is only the very high level of fan loyalty to colleges that keeps stadiums from being empty. Honestly, if I were not a huge loyalist to Duke University--not just the basketball team, but the university as a whole--I would almost never watch college basketball except for a few NCAA tournament games.

And I'm a long-time fan that grew up hearing about great college players like Alcindor and Walton, Bill Bradley, Oscar Robertson, Pete Maravich, Elvin Hayes, and many more, and then watching Spanarkel, the incomparable Larry Bird, Pat Ewing, the high-flying David Thompson, Mike, Akeem, Alvin Robertson, Worthy, smooth Johnny D., Pervis, Keith Smart, Derrick Coleman, Ferry, Mullin, the great Len Bias, etc.

Those players were a part of great teams that were exciting to watch. Not just because of a certain style of play, but because the game had so much more flow and drama. They just did not call all of these touch fouls like today. Everyone seemed perfectly fine with that, too.

Now watching college games is often just a step above watching a funeral procession. The Duke v Virginia ACC final would have been a classic had it been called the way games used to be called. Instead it was a foulfest with Duke getting called for basically breathing on the opponent. Then the refs tried to make up for this by going the other way against UVA on several ticky-tacky calls. It was a travesty and it ruined Jabari's final ACC game, though he played spectacularly.

You could tell that the refs backed way off during the NCAA tournament so as not to damage viewership. It was almost like they decided to put their best foot forward when the audience was largest. Well, if it is obvious that fans prefer that flow of the game, why should it be any different during the regular season and conference tournaments? It really makes me worried for the future of the college game that I used to love so much.

cato
05-13-2014, 11:53 AM
Right? Seems like every time they play, there's Blake, ramming his testicles into Serge Ibaka's knuckles.

Ha!

My conclusion after watching the replay of the Blake/Ibaka run-in in game 3 where Blake's nose got busted: no way in the world would I want to be an NBA ref, trying to call contact in the post. That said, it sure seemed to me that Blake got fouled a ton while Ibaka was trying to keep him from establishing position.

rsvman
05-13-2014, 03:50 PM
Right? Seems like every time they play, there's Blake, ramming his testicles into Serge Ibaka's knuckles.

Seriously? Is everybody blind or something? That was a retaliation. Seconds before Ibaka hit Blake in the you-know-what's, Griffin had hammered Ibaka in the exact same place. Ibaka was angry because Griffin had just hit him in the family jewels. Do you blame him?

Next time it looks like somebody on the Thunder is gratuitiously hammering Griffin and they show a replay, watch what happens right before Griffin gets hit or bumped or whatever, and you'll see. Like when Adams dragged his legs/feet over Griffin's head; the replay clearly showed that Griffin had grabbed Adams and thrown him onto the floor. Because of that, Adams chose to get up rather slowly and clumsily with his feet/ankles bumping into Griffin's head. It was a takedown/a tackle/whatever you want to call it.

Griffin plays dirty ball. A lot.

flyingdutchdevil
05-13-2014, 04:15 PM
Seriously? Is everybody blind or something? That was a retaliation. Seconds before Ibaka hit Blake in the you-know-what's, Griffin had hammered Ibaka in the exact same place. Ibaka was angry because Griffin had just hit him in the family jewels. Do you blame him?

Next time it looks like somebody on the Thunder is gratuitiously hammering Griffin and they show a replay, watch what happens right before Griffin gets hit or bumped or whatever, and you'll see. Like when Adams dragged his legs/feet over Griffin's head; the replay clearly showed that Griffin had grabbed Adams and thrown him onto the floor. Because of that, Adams chose to get up rather slowly and clumsily with his feet/ankles bumping into Griffin's head. It was a takedown/a tackle/whatever you want to call it.

Griffin plays dirty ball. A lot.

So getting rammed in the nuts justifies ramming someone else in the nuts? Gotcha...

Billy Dat
05-13-2014, 04:46 PM
Regardless of his penchant for hitting, and being hit, in the "low post", I am very impressed by Griffin's improvement on the offensive end. I think he's doing a much better job of understanding the best ways to attack certain coverages.

Tripping William
05-13-2014, 04:53 PM
What I'm reading is that Blake Griffin is both Chris Paul *and* Julius Hodge, all rolled into one . . . .

Des Esseintes
05-13-2014, 06:23 PM
I sure do wonder why Ibaka and Adams are the common denominator in violent reprisals across multiple opponents. It has to be league-wide conspiracy to slander and wound these two innocents. There's no other explanation that makes any sense.

NSDukeFan
05-13-2014, 06:44 PM
NS - The Spurs are indeed looking like the team to beat...last night aside. Of course, the playoffs are strange that way, a team can go from looking like world beaters to something other depending on the match-up and the night. The Blazers managed to avoid the sweep. The Spurs being the savvy group they are should be pulling out all the stops to close this out the next game as the Clips/Thunder will go at least two more.

Speaking of which, epic Game 4 which gives us a big game 5 tonight. Amazing that the Clips could guard KD with Chris Paul and not pay the price. The Scott Brooks offensive schemes will continue to come under harsh criticism, as will KD's lack of a post-up game. I'd like to see JJ get back on track tonight...speaking of which.

The Heat/Nets series has become a bust for us Duke fans. I was very excited to see Shane starting but his lack of 3 point production is limiting his PT. Mason is stuck to the bench. The Nets are clogging the lane and forcing the Heat to beat them from outside. Aside from Lebron's workmanlike 49 points (it is amazing what we have come to expect), Bosh's 3, on a laser assist from Lebron, was the game winner. He showed amazing trust going back to Bosh who had just missed his prior two in a row, but everyone needs to contribute to win a title. Kenny Smith said it well in the post game, Lebron makes the right read 95% of the time. After Bosh's two misses, he could have tried to play hero ball, but he made the right pass and Bosh earned that trust by draining it. Per Kenny, title teams make the right basketball play most of the time. I liked that insight. Right now, the Heat look one dimensional and old, but these things change...

Speaking of a team that has flipped a switch, all of a sudden the Pacers look like a real challenge for Miami. Anything can happen as these series are not done yet, but with each at 3-1 and Indiana looking like a formidable Eastern Conference power again, maybe we're going to get the Indiana/Miami rematch we all anticipated for the first half of the year.

I agree very much that things can and do change very quickly in the playoffs. It was a bit funny listening to Lowe and JVG (or maybe if was Lowe and Simmons) discussing how terrible the Pacers were and how great the Wizards were knowing the Pacers would win the next game. I have great respect for all three of them, but they were all writing the Pacers obituary. The other example I painfully remember is that two years ago, the Spurs hadn't lost back to back games all year...until they were up 2-0 on the Thunder and lost four straight, if my memory is correct.
I am also disappointed in the lack of Duke flavour to the Heat-Nets series, after a very promising beginning. Hopefully, we'll see more Shane and Plumlee going forward and Collison doesn't steal more of JJ's minutes.

Mabdul Doobakus
05-14-2014, 12:34 AM
Bizarre evening of basketball, beginning with Indiana's complete lack of interest in playing their game tonight. They got outrebounded 62-23, which is almost unfathomable how that can happen in an NBA playoff game.

Not even sure where to start on that Clippers/Thunder game. Both teams took their turns being an absolute hot mess in the fourth quarter of that game. Hard to see either of those teams beating the Spurs.

g-money
05-14-2014, 12:36 AM
Tonight's Clippers-Thunder game was a throwback to the Donaghy era. Three highly questionable calls in a row went against the Clippers at the end of regulation, including one where the refs had the benefit of replay and still got it wrong!

I generally think the NBA has much better referees than college, and agree that they're only human.... yada, yada, yada. It was too bad that things went that way for JJ and the Clips.

Mabdul Doobakus
05-14-2014, 12:50 AM
Tonight's Clippers-Thunder game was a throwback to the Donaghy era. Three highly questionable calls in a row went against the Clippers at the end of regulation, including one where the refs had the benefit of replay and still got it wrong!

I generally think the NBA has much better referees than college, and agree that they're only human.... yada, yada, yada. It was too bad that things went that way for JJ and the Clips.

Well, at the very least you'd have to say 3 out of 4 calls when against the Clips because the Thunder player was clearly fouled on that play and should've been shooting free throws. There was plenty of incompetence to go around in this one, though. Loved the TNT studio reaction when this one was over, with Chuck and Kenny both saying that game gave them a headache, and Chuck calling everyone a "dumb dumb".

gumbomoop
05-14-2014, 01:02 AM
I don't watch much NBA, but did catch last 8 minutes of Cliippers-Thunder tonight. Having no team, I don't care who wins, though I guess I do want JJ and maybe his team to do well.

That ball sure did appear to have come off Reggie Jackson, and most likely the Clippers would not have blown the game had they gotten possession there. Still, hard not to focus on Chris Paul, an otherwise fine, fine player. With a couple of minutes left (I think), Glen Davis stole a rebound after a missed FT, and CP made a clutch shot. After which, rather than hugging Davis for his hustle, CP beat his chest, preened a bit, you know the drill.

At that point, I wished CP just a little bad luck, a little karmic justice for his sin of overweening look-at-me-ism. I realize it's common practice in much of sport. I don't care for it.

I'd have preferred, slightly, that the Clippers won. If they had to lose, it pleases me that 3 boneheaded plays by CP sealed their fate. I'll root for JJ and his team in the next game.

And I do like most of the Chris/Cliff Paul commercials.

ETA: And I admire CP's taking responsibility in the post-presser for messing up with the inexplicable turnover.

BobbyFan
05-14-2014, 09:11 AM
Still, hard not to focus on Chris Paul, an otherwise fine, fine player. With a couple of minutes left (I think), Glen Davis stole a rebound after a missed FT, and CP made a clutch shot. After which, rather than hugging Davis for his hustle, CP beat his chest, preened a bit, you know the drill.

At that point, I wished CP just a little bad luck, a little karmic justice for his sin of overweening look-at-me-ism. I realize it's common practice in much of sport. I don't care for it.

You're reaching here. Like you said, many players do this, and I don't see any problem with it. Should JJ be criticized everytime he hits a three and flashes up the 3 sign, instead of going over to Chris Paul and hugging him for the pass?

While on the topic of JJ, I don't understand why Rivers has a shorter leash with him than he does with Jamal Crawford. JJ is clearly a better fit when Paul and Griffin are on the floor, while Crawford's chucking takes away too many opportunities from them. JJ only played 25 minutes and scored 16 points on 12 shots; Crawford played 30 minutes and scored 19 points on 22 shots. JJ was at +17 for the game; Crawford at -10.

And when JJ was finally put back in for the last play in the game, Paul (who was probably fouled by Jackson) had him wide open behind the three point line and missed him.

superdave
05-14-2014, 09:40 AM
How do you all stay up for these games? I watched the Clips-Thunder until half time and had to go to bed.

As for Chris Paul, I was glad to see him blow several plays down the stretch. That should help remind him he's human and cannot go around punching opponents in the groin or preening too much. I think I can only cheer for him on Team USA.

Both teams go through entire quarters where they look dysfunctional. Starting to look like a repeat of last year's Spurs-Heat Finals. Go Spurs!

rsvman
05-14-2014, 09:55 AM
Reffing-wise, it's even now. Thunder got screwed in LA, Clips got screwed in OKC.

Ball clearly went off Reggie , but arguably a foul could've been called there. Davis's rebound and the subsequent Chris Paul shot could easily have been two free throws for Ibaka at the other end instead, which would've been a 4-point swing. Davis had Ibaka in a half-Nelson, at least.

I find myself in a difficult position, wanting JJ to do well but wanting OKC to win. Ideally, JJ goes off for 38 points in a losing effort in the next game.

Atlanta Duke
05-14-2014, 10:28 AM
Interesting column by Charles Pierce in Grantland on a very entertaining basketball series being played along with sideshows of As The Sterling Turns and KD reinventing his public image with his MVP speech shout out to his Mom

What we have here, besides two superbly matched professional basketball teams putting the wood to each other, is a playoff series truly fit for the new media age. First, a surreptitious tape gets leaked in which Clippers owner Donald Sterling is caught being basically the same reptilian creep he’s always been....While all this is going on, Oklahoma City star Kevin Durant wins the league’s Most Valuable Player award. He marks the occasion by giving a heartfelt shout-out of an acceptance speech that detonates on YouTube and makes Durant, whose public image always has been maddeningly vague, into a cuddly, grateful superstar

Money quote from Pierce

The Internet — and the Twitterverse, which is the Internet on crystal meth — is a marvelous environment for raising up an unthinking mob.

http://grantland.com/features/kevin-durant-doc-rivers/

gumbomoop
05-14-2014, 01:07 PM
You're reaching here. Like you said, many players do this, and I don't see any problem with it. Should JJ be criticized everytime he hits a three and flashes up the 3 sign, instead of going over to Chris Paul and hugging him for the pass?

I suspect you're right, and I suspect I'll go on reaching, disliking the preening by all these players, including ours. As I don't see much of JJ these days, I did not know it was his standard, or even frequent, practice to boast after a 3-bomb. I trust he looks contrite when he misses, which must be more than half the time.

Maybe the preening and chest-thumping became common in the NBA in the last few years? Ten years ago? I'm asking. Whenever, it does seem to have filtered down to the college level.

So, I do have a problem with it, or maybe more accurately a minor irritation at its ubiquitousness. Which may simply be my problem, for which I, like CP, will receive some karmic justice. Perhaps a lifetime ban from attending any NBA game.

Maybe a two-fer, me and Donald Sterling.

ETA: My favorite karmic justice is the missed thunder-dumb.

phaedrus
05-14-2014, 01:37 PM
I suspect you're right, and I suspect I'll go on reaching, disliking the preening by all these players, including ours. As I don't see much of JJ these days, I did not know it was his standard, or even frequent, practice to boast after a 3-bomb. I trust he looks contrite when he misses, which must be more than half the time.

Maybe the preening and chest-thumping became common in the NBA in the last few years? Ten years ago? I'm asking. Whenever, it does seem to have filtered down to the college level.

So, I do have a problem with it, or maybe more accurately a minor irritation at its ubiquitousness. Which may simply be my problem, for which I, like CP, will receive some karmic justice. Perhaps a lifetime ban from attending any NBA game.

Maybe a two-fer, me and Donald Sterling.

ETA: My favorite karmic justice is the missed thunder-dumb.

It seems to me that basketball players celebrate far less after a made basket than athletes in almost any other sport celebrate after scoring.

Is it the frequency of scoring in the NBA that makes the celebration unacceptable? If so, are Big Ten basketball players granted more leeway than others? Were the Seven Seconds or Less Phoenix Suns expected to be a picture of modesty?

gumbomoop
05-14-2014, 02:00 PM
It seems to me that basketball players celebrate far less after a made basket than athletes in almost any other sport celebrate after scoring.

Is it the frequency of scoring in the NBA that makes the celebration unacceptable?

No accounting for taste, and mine re bball preeners probably very much in minority, though I doubt I'm literally the only fan who finds the frequency disconcerting.

I only watch futbol and college bball, so I don't have much of a feel for the practice in most sports. But you're right that futbol goals do occasion preening and group pile-on-hugs. Shirt ripped off and waved at friendly or unfriendly fans gets the player a (foolish) yellow card. Best karmic justice there is a second yellow later in the match, and thus dismissal by red card.

I'd guess bball players usually have less time to celebrate, for unless it's an and-one, the game keeps going. (Karmic justice occurs when the celebrant's man scores on a long pass down the other basket. It happens.) Whereas in futbol, the game literally stops for 30-60 seconds (though the clock keeps running), until the celebration is over, and the other team starts play again at midfield.

American football, baseball, hockey -- I have no idea what those several celebrations look like these days.

Des Esseintes
05-14-2014, 04:07 PM
I suspect you're right, and I suspect I'll go on reaching, disliking the preening by all these players, including ours. As I don't see much of JJ these days, I did not know it was his standard, or even frequent, practice to boast after a 3-bomb. I trust he looks contrite when he misses, which must be more than half the time.

Maybe the preening and chest-thumping became common in the NBA in the last few years? Ten years ago? I'm asking. Whenever, it does seem to have filtered down to the college.
Did you watch JJ in college? He did not learn three celebrations in the NBA. Anybody care to recall when he offered Carolina the Shocker? For the record, I see no problem with a person showing pleasure with an accomplishment. If you get back on D, it's hard to see the travesty.

gumbomoop
05-14-2014, 05:22 PM
Did you watch JJ in college? He did not learn three celebrations in the NBA. Anybody care to recall when he offered Carolina the Shocker? For the record, I see no problem with a person showing pleasure with an accomplishment. If you get back on D, it's hard to see the travesty.

No, not a travesty, not a word I've used. My phrase was " minor irritation," made a little more grating -- for me but not for anyone else, so far -- by its "ubiquitousness."

I'd quibble with the description (of some manifestations) of the "pleasure" displayed over some "accomplishments," but it's probably a matter of taste, about which there's no accounting.

Or maybe it's not a matter of taste, and I'm simply being too judgmental.

cspan37421
05-14-2014, 10:46 PM
What a shame to see MP2 get DNP-CD by Kidd in the final game of the series. Would it have mattered? Who knows. Pretty amazing comeback and FT performance by Miami. Going down with his veterans I guess.

Marcin Gortat: if Abe Lincoln came back as a skinhead ....

Acymetric
05-14-2014, 10:49 PM
Did you watch JJ in college? He did not learn three celebrations in the NBA. Anybody care to recall when he offered Carolina the Shocker? For the record, I see no problem with a person showing pleasure with an accomplishment. If you get back on D, it's hard to see the travesty.

I was recalling it to my friend's Carolina fan wife just the other day as a matter of fact! Not exactly a good example of sportsmanship but I loved it personally.

CDu
05-15-2014, 01:46 PM
What a shame to see MP2 get DNP-CD by Kidd in the final game of the series. Would it have mattered? Who knows. Pretty amazing comeback and FT performance by Miami. Going down with his veterans I guess.

Marcin Gortat: if Abe Lincoln came back as a skinhead ....

Yeah, up until the final minutes it was looking like the DNP-CD was just fine as a decision. And I don't know that Plumlee would have made a difference in those final minutes. So I think it probably was an inconsequential decision to bench him.

So the two favorites made quick work of their opposition in round 2 and now get at least one extra day of rest heading into the conference finals. San Antonio looked shaky against Dallas, but they obliterated Portland.

If the right version of either the Wizards or Pacers showed up, I think they could give the Heat trouble. But the problem is that both of those teams seem very willing to not show up from time to time.

UrinalCake
05-15-2014, 03:58 PM
Very complimentary article on JJ. It appears the hatred that so many had for him in college has waned.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/everybody-loves-j-j-redick/

flyingdutchdevil
05-15-2014, 04:41 PM
Very complimentary article on JJ. It appears the hatred that so many had for him in college has waned.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/everybody-loves-j-j-redick/

As my favorite Duke player, I appreciate that article. Having gone to school the same time as JJ, I really appreciated his cockiness. It was a thing of beauty.

I'm happy he didn't carry that cockiness to him in the NBA, or else he'd be in Europe now (or worse - Stephon Marbury's teammate in China).

Dwight Howard, Chris Paul, and arguably two of the best coaches have all spoken highly of JJ.

I'd love to see him back at Duke post-NBA playing career but, like Battier, he's destined for a career in the more lucrative NBA.

Billy Dat
05-16-2014, 12:14 PM
After an epic first round, we get a brisk second round and onto the Conference Finals.

I guess we have to see if these injuries to Ibaka and Parker are series-altering, but if not, all signs point to a Finals rematch. Miami certainly seems vulnerable, but don't they kind of always at this time of year?

I am trying not to be swayed by the recent play of all of these teams, but it sure feels like a Spurs final hurrah.

greybeard
05-19-2014, 01:23 AM
No accounting for taste, and mine re bball preeners probably very much in minority, though I doubt I'm literally the only fan who finds the frequency disconcerting.

I only watch futbol and college bball, so I don't have much of a feel for the practice in most sports. But you're right that futbol goals do occasion preening and group pile-on-hugs. Shirt ripped off and waved at friendly or unfriendly fans gets the player a (foolish) yellow card. Best karmic justice there is a second yellow later in the match, and thus dismissal by red card.

I'd guess bball players usually have less time to celebrate, for unless it's an and-one, the game keeps going. (Karmic justice occurs when the celebrant's man scores on a long pass down the other basket. It happens.) Whereas in futbol, the game literally stops for 30-60 seconds (though the clock keeps running), until the celebration is over, and the other team starts play again at midfield.

American football, baseball, hockey -- I have no idea what those several celebrations look like these days.

I'm with Gubaman here but will try to fill in some missing holes.

In Futball, goals are hard to come by, they're almost like birthdays, preening and pile-ups when a really nice or important goal is scored is okay with me. In fact, it goes with the fans, who create theater all their own. This is like getting to do a solo that gives the fans something to riff over. Futballers who play basketball in the US, I think probably less prone to the peacock-like shows of bravado and "I'm bad" demeanor that passes for showmanship here. Anybody like that stuff not younger than 12? And, the Futballers do make the game much prettier, easy on the eyes, and have produced some of the best teams in the NBA we have seen. San Antonio, of course, Dallas, when they won it, Kidd by the way was an all-state midfielder for 4 years in high school, Nash is the son of a college soccer coach and used to play reasonably high end soccer in NY in the off-season, Diaw makes offenses sing, the best inside player for an inside out game there has been maybe ever, in my opinion (both with Suns and Spurs), Kobe grew up in Italy, Olijuwon, Gasols, Nene, who knows about Ewing and Duncan, even if they didn't play organized, Parker, Manu, Divac, Schremf, Dirki, we could go on forever. Their influence on the team game, not just passing it but the how, when, and to whom and why, and led an air of real professionalism that I find refreshing. So, in Futball cultures the game and goal scoring displays fit the game and the scene, the culture, nature of the game perfectly. I like a game where goals are almost always the product of lots of people doing smart things at the right time and the right way, and then some incredible one-on numbers displays that scream for a fancy bow.

I'd talk about American Futball but I don[t see it as a sport, but rather a show of blood, serious injury, to placate the mob after driving them into a frenzy, /soccer, the celebrating for most part appropriate, great passing game that produces many, many wins, but the emphasis on team play seems to an uninitiated seems to have faded somewhat, goals a bit too easy, but crowd is very into it, so a vestige of an all but bygone era passes. Beyond that, there's a lot of blood left on the ice, players give up pieces of themselves all the time, and when all the effort pays off, let them make a big team deal of it. Preening in the NBA I wouldn't miss, not a little.

JasonEvans
05-19-2014, 08:51 AM
I'm glad the Pacers won the first game as a loss at home in game one could have been a sign that they are not ready to compete with the Heat. Of course, the Pacers dropped game one at home in each of the past two series but came back to win them, so... uhhh... nevermind ;)

The story of the game was that Hibbert was back to his old self, grabbing boards, altering shots, and being a matchup that Miami could not handle while Chris Bosh reverted back to the mediocre player he was last year in the Pacer series, missing shots and generally having little impact on the game. He had 2 rebounds in 31 minutes... that's not good. The Heat were outrebounded by 9 and had just 4 offensive rebounds, which is a lot of why they lost despite shooting a decent 51% from the floor.

-Jason "Spurs-OKC begins tonight -- can the Thunder do it without Ibaka? Wow, they have been injury plagued during the playoffs the past couple years!" Evans

theAlaskanBear
05-19-2014, 09:24 AM
I'm glad the Pacers won the first game as a loss at home in game one could have been a sign that they are not ready to compete with the Heat. Of course, the Pacers dropped game one at home in each of the past two series but came back to win them, so... uhhh... nevermind ;)

The story of the game was that Hibbert was back to his old self, grabbing boards, altering shots, and being a matchup that Miami could not handle while Chris Bosh reverted back to the mediocre player he was last year in the Pacer series, missing shots and generally having little impact on the game. He had 2 rebounds in 31 minutes... that's not good. The Heat were outrebounded by 9 and had just 4 offensive rebounds, which is a lot of why they lost despite shooting a decent 51% from the floor.

-Jason "Spurs-OKC begins tonight -- can the Thunder do it without Ibaka? Wow, they have been injury plagued during the playoffs the past couple years!" Evans

A bigger reason they lost was letting Indiana get a bunch of open 3's to get off to a hot start to the game. When a great team gets on a roll like that...they are almost impossible to beat. They were what 7/9 to start the game? That gave them the confidence to shoot off of pick and rolls, and forced the heat to open up the floor by defending to the 3-pt line.

You expect the Heat to be out-rebounded by Indiana at home. You can't let them get hot and control the game like that. To start the game the Heat were definitely more tentative offensively...the had a couple of lanes to the basket the first two possessions but took jumpshots or passed after penetrating half-way.

Also you bring up Bosh, which is a huge criticism of mine...I don't mind him taking a couple of threes within the flow of the offense, but to deliberately search out Bosh to get him shooting a bunch of threes is terrible strategy. He is one of the deadliest elbow shooters/players in the league. Get him to the paint!!! That will also give him a chance to fight for offensive boards and get Indy's bigs in foul trouble, which just doesn't happen if he is camped out at the 3-pt line.

The Heat made some good pushes last night to cut the lead, lets see what they bring on Tuesday. If Indiana wins...they are in real trouble. I imagine the Heat to treat it like a must-win.

NSDukeFan
05-19-2014, 10:02 AM
A bigger reason they lost was letting Indiana get a bunch of open 3's to get off to a hot start to the game. When a great team gets on a roll like that...they are almost impossible to beat. They were what 7/9 to start the game? That gave them the confidence to shoot off of pick and rolls, and forced the heat to open up the floor by defending to the 3-pt line.

You expect the Heat to be out-rebounded by Indiana at home. You can't let them get hot and control the game like that. To start the game the Heat were definitely more tentative offensively...the had a couple of lanes to the basket the first two possessions but took jumpshots or passed after penetrating half-way.

Also you bring up Bosh, which is a huge criticism of mine...I don't mind him taking a couple of threes within the flow of the offense, but to deliberately search out Bosh to get him shooting a bunch of threes is terrible strategy. He is one of the deadliest elbow shooters/players in the league. Get him to the paint!!! That will also give him a chance to fight for offensive boards and get Indy's bigs in foul trouble, which just doesn't happen if he is camped out at the 3-pt line.

The Heat made some good pushes last night to cut the lead, lets see what they bring on Tuesday. If Indiana wins...they are in real trouble. I imagine the Heat to treat it like a must-win.

That might not be the most efficient use of Bosh, but isn't the rationale that the whole middle of the floor opens up a lot more if you can get Hibbert out of the key? I don't know which strategy is best, but the chess match the coaches play is interesting.

Henderson
05-19-2014, 10:08 AM
Erik Spoelstra was clear after the game that it was a horrible defensive effort -- one of their worst of the year. And the Heat have to play sound defense because of the size they give up down low. They started off giving up open shots to a hot-shooting team; then they couldn't stop the inside game of Hibbard and West. The disparity in fouls and rebounds tells the story.

But I'm buying the Hibbard story. Without him playing well, the Pacers are similarly sized to the Heat but with less talent. But he showed up. And I don't think the Heat prepped for that eventuality. Lots of people were surprised given Hibbard's track record over the past month. When both he and West are playing well, they cause a real matchup problem for the Heat.

I also thought Lance Stephenson played under control and was able to match up with D. Wade without drama and without inflaming Wade.

I'm not a big fan of Chris Bosh, but I understand what Spoelstra has in mind with him. On offense, he plays away from the basket to draw the other team's big man (here Hibbard) away from the basket, opening the court for the Heat to use its athleticism. So don't blame Bosh for where he plays on offense; that's a Spoelstra call, and it's intentional. NSDukeFan's point (I think).

But I have this overall sense of hubris from the Heat. They almost intentionally gave up home court advantage by resting players late in the season, even though they haven't played well at Indy recently. That and not taking Hibbard seriously suggest to me that -- although they'd never admit it -- the Heat think they can catch up later. And maybe they will.

theAlaskanBear
05-19-2014, 02:58 PM
That might not be the most efficient use of Bosh, but isn't the rationale that the whole middle of the floor opens up a lot more if you can get Hibbert out of the key? I don't know which strategy is best, but the chess match the coaches play is interesting.

That's exactly the rationale and thinking, but Hibbert was cheating on Bosh and shading his D toward the lane...

Bosh is a passable 3pt shooter when he is trailing the play and sets up at the top of the key. He is not the type of three point shooter who should keep shooting and bricking. It's lazy offense. You can achieve the same spacing effect if you get him a few buckets down low, have him hit a few midrange jumpers, and shoot a couple of threes once his offensive game is going. Hibbert is going to cheat unless Bosh comes ready to score all over the court. Besides, pulling Bosh out down by the baseline lets Bosh offensive rebound off of James and Wade's penetration.

I don't blame Bosh, playing the low-post against Indiana is a bruising, dirty, thankless task, I would rather sit up top and brick threes myself ;) Indiana gets to play very physical down low at home because of their defensive reputation.

theAlaskanBear
05-20-2014, 08:12 AM
The San Antonio Spurs play beautiful basketball.

That is all...

moonpie23
05-20-2014, 03:24 PM
old men ball

Henderson
05-20-2014, 06:58 PM
Uncle Drew gets buckets.

CDu
05-20-2014, 07:32 PM
The San Antonio Spurs play beautiful basketball.

That is all...

Yeah I love watching them play. Parker and Ginobili are maestros. It was clinical the way they worked the pick and roll.

Billy Dat
05-20-2014, 11:57 PM
Awesome Game 2 of Miami/Indy. It was extremely intense, both teams played hard, the crowd was going nuts, there were tons of 10-14 point swings with no team getting a double digit lead, etc.

Lebron's playmaking, Wade's scoring, the team's defense, and Norris Cole and Birdman playing well off the bench made the difference. Lebron's ability to draw a double and triple team then make the correct pass is a thing of beauty. Wade's unique ability to hit circus shots is also something you don't see everyday, he hit two huge shots in the final 2 minutes.

Lance Stephenson had an incredible game through the first 3 quarters, but he was shut down during crunch time. Still, that dude is a problem to deal with. He was a huge standout for Indiana.

Shane got some minutes and I thought he played well, especially in the first half. I also like when the use him as the high screener when Lebron is running point.

Indiana had a shot to go up 2-0...let's see if they can keep playing well in Miami.

theAlaskanBear
05-21-2014, 08:33 AM
Awesome Game 2 of Miami/Indy. It was extremely intense, both teams played hard, the crowd was going nuts, there were tons of 10-14 point swings with no team getting a double digit lead, etc.

Lebron's playmaking, Wade's scoring, the team's defense, and Norris Cole and Birdman playing well off the bench made the difference. Lebron's ability to draw a double and triple team then make the correct pass is a thing of beauty. Wade's unique ability to hit circus shots is also something you don't see everyday, he hit two huge shots in the final 2 minutes.

Lance Stephenson had an incredible game through the first 3 quarters, but he was shut down during crunch time. Still, that dude is a problem to deal with. He was a huge standout for Indiana.

Shane got some minutes and I thought he played well, especially in the first half. I also like when the use him as the high screener when Lebron is running point.

Indiana had a shot to go up 2-0...let's see if they can keep playing well in Miami.

Yes, a very intense and physical game last night. Even though the refs missed some calls I am glad the refs didnt give in and make it a foul fest when things got chippy and players started flopping.

Lance was unbelievable. He played like a true star. His ceiling is higher than Paul George. He plays with a lot of energy and emotion...someone I hate that I am starting to like. Chalmers hit a couple of big threes, but given Cole's energy, Chalmers defensive lapses and offensive mediocrity and inconsistency...I have to wonder if the Heat let him walk this year. Bringing in someone like Shaun Livingston or a better scorer would take a lot of pressure off of LeBron and Wade...that will be important going forward as the Heat age. I think the key to the next game will be three point shooting...they have had two terrible games from 3 so far...they are at home -- I am predicting better shooting from Allen, Battier, James, and Co.

Also, Chris Anderson is the only guy on the Heat who can box out and guard Hibbert. Crazy, considering who he was in Denver.

Billy Dat
05-21-2014, 10:30 AM
Yes, a very intense and physical game last night. Even though the refs missed some calls I am glad the refs didnt give in and make it a foul fest when things got chippy and players started flopping.

Lance was unbelievable. He played like a true star. His ceiling is higher than Paul George. He plays with a lot of energy and emotion...someone I hate that I am starting to like. Chalmers hit a couple of big threes, but given Cole's energy, Chalmers defensive lapses and offensive mediocrity and inconsistency...I have to wonder if the Heat let him walk this year. Bringing in someone like Shaun Livingston or a better scorer would take a lot of pressure off of LeBron and Wade...that will be important going forward as the Heat age. I think the key to the next game will be three point shooting...they have had two terrible games from 3 so far...they are at home -- I am predicting better shooting from Allen, Battier, James, and Co.

Also, Chris Anderson is the only guy on the Heat who can box out and guard Hibbert. Crazy, considering who he was in Denver.

RE: foul calls
Agree, they kind of let them play and the game was better for it.

RE: Lance and Paul George
When two super talents are paired like this, it's hard to tell who is benefiting more via the attention drawn by the other. I think your statement about Lance having a higher ceiling is daring, but he is certainly backing it up right now.

RE: Heat point guards
I saw Shabazz Napier as a Heat pick on Chad Ford's mock draft, presuming they let Chalmers walk. I think Chalmers will blossom when he is out of Miami. I don't know if he'll be a great leader, but his potential is limited in Miami because of the amount of talent he is surrounded by. He may be a big stats on bad teams guy, or maybe he's the final piece for a different team.

theAlaskanBear
05-21-2014, 11:11 AM
RE: foul calls
Agree, they kind of let them play and the game was better for it.

RE: Lance and Paul George
When two super talents are paired like this, it's hard to tell who is benefiting more via the attention drawn by the other. I think your statement about Lance having a higher ceiling is daring, but he is certainly backing it up right now.

RE: Heat point guards
I saw Shabazz Napier as a Heat pick on Chad Ford's mock draft, presuming they let Chalmers walk. I think Chalmers will blossom when he is out of Miami. I don't know if he'll be a great leader, but his potential is limited in Miami because of the amount of talent he is surrounded by. He may be a big stats on bad teams guy, or maybe he's the final piece for a different team.

RE: Heat point guards. I appreciate your views on Chalmers, but I just find him to be too inconsistent to be a star somewhere else. I think he actually benefits from playing with LeBron and Wade, because the offense runs through them in crunch time. Chalmers' job is essentially to bring the ball up the court and play defense...and his defense against Hill has been pathetic so far. His best attribute is that he can be a momentum changing 3-pt shooter. He hits big shots. I am leaning toward them letting him go so the Heat can sign some legit big men -- Anderson Bosh Battier Haslem....all aging, Battier retiring, and Bosh has proven he doesn't function well guarding true centers. The worry I have is that Chalmers is a big strong guard, Cole is smaller/quicker more prototypical...how will he handle being the primary PG and guarding bigger players on a day-to-day basis.

Looking at it, win or lose, the Heat have some big decisions to make, they need to retool their roster.

RE: Lance and Paul. I look at this way -- George is a great player, hard worker, and has turned himself into a great shooter and slasher. But I think its clear the game isn't necessarily so natural to him, as it is to Lance Stephenson. Lance plays with great court-vision and a has panache that is hard to describe...and he has almost the same physical tools that George has. Lance is just a better creator/playmaker on the court.

Billy Dat
05-21-2014, 11:53 AM
RE: Heat point guards. I appreciate your views on Chalmers, but I just find him to be too inconsistent to be a star somewhere else. I think he actually benefits from playing with LeBron and Wade, because the offense runs through them in crunch time. Chalmers' job is essentially to bring the ball up the court and play defense...and his defense against Hill has been pathetic so far. His best attribute is that he can be a momentum changing 3-pt shooter. He hits big shots. I am leaning toward them letting him go so the Heat can sign some legit big men -- Anderson Bosh Battier Haslem....all aging, Battier retiring, and Bosh has proven he doesn't function well guarding true centers. The worry I have is that Chalmers is a big strong guard, Cole is smaller/quicker more prototypical...how will he handle being the primary PG and guarding bigger players on a day-to-day basis.

Looking at it, win or lose, the Heat have some big decisions to make, they need to retool their roster.

RE: Lance and Paul. I look at this way -- George is a great player, hard worker, and has turned himself into a great shooter and slasher. But I think its clear the game isn't necessarily so natural to him, as it is to Lance Stephenson. Lance plays with great court-vision and a has panache that is hard to describe...and he has almost the same physical tools that George has. Lance is just a better creator/playmaker on the court.

The interesting thing about Heat PGs is that Lebron is basically the PG for most of the time that he is on the court. And, when he doesn't have the ball, Wade dominates it. The designated Heat PG doesn't wind up handling the ball that much.

Chalmers is indeed good for a few game swinging 3s. You could argue that the 3 he hit with 7 to go in the 3rd, which ended a 6-0 Indiana run and gave Miami back the lead, was one of the biggest shots of the game. I agree that I think they let him walk.

Miami has caused the NBA small ball revolution to a large extent. It will be interesting to see how they retool - will they try to keep going small?

greybeard
05-21-2014, 02:56 PM
The San Antonio Spurs play beautiful basketball.

That is all...

Diaw, I think, is perhaps the key ingredient in the beauty of the half court offense San Antonio displays. He grew up amerced playing the most "beautiful" passing game on the planet, and has brought to San Antonio the same thing he brought to Phoenix: he plays as a holding/back-to-the basket striker, a great receiver of the ball, with perfect balance who creates great position for himself to provide the offense to play off of, sometimes just kicking it out to permit the offense to better organize and reformulate for attack, and often creating great spots to receive to create offensive advantage, at times for the direct receiver, but more often to lead to a sequence off advantage to leads to a score. He models the beautiful game, he creates it, his teammates join in, following his lead/example, and Spurs' style becomes the basketball equivalent to the small passing game that originates close to the box in soccer that leads to potent offense.

An unsung hero, whom announcers more and more are recognizing for what he does.

pfrduke
05-21-2014, 03:19 PM
Diaw, I think, is perhaps the key ingredient in the beauty of the half court offense San Antonio displays. He grew up amerced playing the most "beautiful" passing game on the planet, and has brought to San Antonio the same thing he brought to Phoenix: he plays as a holding/back-to-the basket striker, a great receiver of the ball, with perfect balance who creates great position for himself to provide the offense to play off of, sometimes just kicking it out to permit the offense to better organize and reformulate for attack, and often creating great spots to receive to create offensive advantage, at times for the direct receiver, but more often to lead to a sequence off advantage to leads to a score. He models the beautiful game, he creates it, his teammates join in, following his lead/example, and Spurs' style becomes the basketball equivalent to the small passing game that originates close to the box in soccer that leads to potent offense.

An unsung hero, whom announcers more and more are recognizing for what he does.

No.

Diaw has been a useful player for the Spurs, but a) they have been doing this superbly well for far longer than Diaw has been on the team and b) he's not in any way a focal point of their offense (either as a playmaker or as a final scorer). The credit for the Spurs' success and the beauty of their game starts with Popovich, Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili, and then there's a giant gulf before anyone else starts deserving credit.

moonpie23
05-21-2014, 04:07 PM
Kyrie is going to provide a HUGE upgrade to the Miami Heat....

we already saw a snippet during the All Star Game.... Mark this page.......:cool:

greybeard
05-21-2014, 09:20 PM
No.

Diaw has been a useful player for the Spurs, but a) they have been doing this superbly well for far longer than Diaw has been on the team and b) he's not in any way a focal point of their offense (either as a playmaker or as a final scorer). The credit for the Spurs' success and the beauty of their game starts with Popovich, Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili, and then there's a giant gulf before anyone else starts deserving credit.

San Antonio has been playing an effective team game for a decade and has done it with a large percentage of players from soccer playing cultures, which is where Pop cut his teeth as a pro.

That said, the beautiful game that they are now playing I think is attributable to Diaw's play as a holding striker. Sorry, guards do not make for the "beautiful" game that the Spurs have been playing. They contribute to it, no doubt, and as offspring of soccer playing cultures can maximize Diaw's extraordinary talents.

Coincidence that he played the same roll when Phoenix too played the beautiful game with a soccer filled line up who half-court game revolved around his inside play as a holding striker, only in Phoenix he scored "goals" a whole lot more than he does for the Spurs? Coincidence, the beautiful game disappeared at Phoenix when Amar'e returned and Diaw was relegated to the bench? I don't think so. And, let's not forget that MVP Nash still continued to run the show at the point. He was, however, missing the extraordinary holding striker presence that Diaw embodies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Diaw.

Diaw has an extraordinary talent that two coaches (D'Antoni in Phoenix) who played and coached in Europe recognized and built offenses that maximized that talent. He was on both teams surrounded by basketball players who grew up with soccer balls at their feet. He made the game sing because those around him knew/know his value and used it to the maximum. The beautiful game emerged because of it.

San Antonio would be great even without Diaw. However, no mistake that Pop has held onto the old guy when others have been let go, and has the ball going through his hands as often as he does during the considerable minutes that Diaw gets.

Thais is my take based upon the evidence. See Wiki. You have yours.

Richard Berg
05-22-2014, 12:22 AM
Splitter's passing game has emerged the last year or two to be just as formidable as Boris or Timmy. In some situations (eg finding weak-side cutters from the high post) he's the best of the lot solely due to height. And he clearly has the unconditional trust of TP in pick & roll situations, always putting the defenders at maximum disadvantage whether or not he touches the ball.

Of course, Manu still holds the assist title when style points & degree of difficulty are factored in -- fun in blowouts, but heart-attack provoking in tight games. Between the chance of untimely turnovers / circus shot selection and his old legs' defensive liabilities, I would actually prefer we keep a smart role player like Joseph or Green (or Belinelli or Bonner...lots of choices!) on the floor when nursing a small lead into the final minute...but I'm not Pop...

Billy Dat
05-22-2014, 10:16 AM
This Spurs/Thunder series has been a real drag, although I am happy to be able to go to sleep early in the second half with little fear of seeing a remarkable comeback. I want to like the Spurs, but Dancin Danny makes it a big problem for me.

theAlaskanBear
05-22-2014, 10:37 AM
This Spurs/Thunder series has been a real drag, although I am happy to be able to go to sleep early in the second half with little fear of seeing a remarkable comeback. I want to like the Spurs, but Dancin Danny makes it a big problem for me.

It's tough watching Danny Green have success, but I will be glad if OKC never wins a championship, given the way the team was wrenched away from Seattle.

greybeard
05-22-2014, 11:40 AM
I thought the game was decided by indefensible no-calls, one of which I believe should have gotten Wade tossed.

Preliminarily, let me begin with how Miami came out. They were clearly intent on roughing people up. What nasty and flat out wrong as it gets. Haslem nails a Pacer's big a gratuitous blow to side flat into the mid chest area with a right arm folded at the elbow and braced with his hand on his own right hip to put the weight of his own body behind the wall that he placed in front of the big at the last second as the big was running down court through the lane towards the baseline.

The announcers lead by Reggie say, "no call, just part of the game." What game you talking about Reggie? It seems to me that Haslem is one of those guys that presents like a wall of bricks--you run into him you remember. That elbow was not swung, but his right hand was linked to the front of Haslem's side and the arm with the elbow going about 90 degrees out from his shoulder formed a braced abutment with mass behind it that was stuck out so the Pacer in question never saw it coming. This is Haslem, folks, the guy who makes a business of nailing people, who sets the tone when Miami is out to head hunt, to do what they can by playing beyond rough when they can't do it without the spector of hurting people for real, heck they did here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3DcUVRyU3Q

Reggie talks nonsense. What, he thinks that he knows how that "feels" because things like that had happened to him while running baseline to come off a screen set near the three line that the refs don't see, so he thinks it's okay. This was a 250-75 lb guy known for nastiness to set a tone surprising an opponent's big by sending a brick wall in front of his chest to do what other than send a message in plain sight of everyone, including the referees. The message, even Reggie had to know, was, "watch yourself today baby, head-hunting time;" the Heat are here to tell you who owns this court, and not because they can play better basketball, but rather because they are out to hurt people to do it. People often do get hurt, as happened here big time, we'll get to that in a moment, but, even if they don't, the game is diminished and the Heat get what they are after, and the League is happy. Haslem is a thug, who will hurt you without blinking, and everyone knows it, especially the Pacers. http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/05/23/video-udonis-haslem-tyler-hansbrough-exchange-flagrant-fouls/ (curious how the supposed flagrant against Wade by Hansbrough was taken down because of copyright infringement in light of a Miami broadcaster suggesting that the contact occurred because Wade had folded in an odd way to avoid what was otherwise going to be a block of his shot, by the way. Hansbrough received a flagrant 2 after the game but was not suspended; Haslem sat out and Miami's Pittman sat out three games for going after Lance Stevenson's head in relatiation for Stevenson's having made a choke sign directed at Wade before the game. http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--heat-s-udonis-haslem--dexter-pittman-suspended-for-flagrant-fouls-against-pacers.html

Can anybody say that they do not believe that Hibbert would have been called for a flagrant 1 if he tried to hook Haslem on a move to the middle the next play and his elbow got a piece of Haslem on the side of his abdomen or chest area. If the elbow lead with a force that said, if you get in the way, well, so sorry about that, Hibbert is gone, right? So, where does this forgiven outright display of force by Haslem put the game? Heat advantage, having nothing to do with which team is playing better. Terrible call, in my opinion. As things turned out, just a precursor to much worse that was to come.

So now we turn to the real game changer, which Reggie again dismissed as just another example of boys being boys with not a mention of the way the entire sequence began. George knocked the ball away from Wade near midcourt and was about to pick up the ball and dribble unimpeded for an easy dunk when Wade from behind reached out and grabbed George by the right shoulder, which caused George to fall forward as he tried to fight his way through. The athletic Wade somehow veered to his left and made no effort to use his hops to clear the fallen George by a mile, which would have been no problem. Instead, Wade "fell" clumsily and his knee just happened to nail George in the back of the head with force sufficient to drive his forehead into the ground while his trailing leg brushed into and past George's ribs. Am I saying that Wade was out to concuss or seriously hurt George. Who cares. What he did was a deliberate attempt to hurt George to some extent and to again send a message, "by any means necessary." That, folks, has to be a flagrant II--there was intent to hurt, it came as a piece with a grab from behind after George had stolen the ball from Wade in embarrassing fashion and to avoid an easy score that was surely to follow.

A no-call by the ref who was standing next to the sideline and saw it all? And, Reggie seeing the no-call as righteous. You don't need a weatherman . . . . You "let them play" when it is picture boy for the league and the promise for an audience moving forward into the finals. Is head hunting beyond Wade's style in such circumstances, and Reggie his apologist--you be the judge. http://8points9seconds.com/2013/05/25/will-dwyane-wade-get-suspended-for-elbow-to-lance-stephensons-head/ An elbow to the head, at mid-court again, with the question posed in the media, would Wade be suspended by the League for it. Kidding right?

Second game changer, in my opinion was Lebron's supposed "steal" when he went for the ball in George's hands and the ball popped. When you chop down and the ball pops up, the only explanation is that Lebron got George's arm, and the force of down on the arm caused the ball to go up. Nature, that would be the laws of physics, knows no other possibility. So do the refs and so does Reggie.

Finally, Hibbert played terrifically in the game last night, but his scoring numbers were impeded by some over-the-top inside defending. He catches low, moves to the center, and is left with 14 foot hook shots, a few of which he makes. You cannot play to an inside game when the defense is allowed to make the inside the outside. That, perhaps, can be excused as playoff basketball. I don't like it, think that the only way to counter being pushed out like that is likely to get you called for a foul, but that is the life the League has chosen. The stuff just mentioned, has no place in the game. Why not just declare the Heat the winner and get on with the next series.

We all know the outcome of this series now, and it has nothing to do with which team is better. That team is clearly the Pacers. That Lebron and Wade get to say that we just know how to reach down deep is distasteful. It insults the game.

Letting them "play" inside is one thing, not calling those two plays straight up is another.

Pat Riley's signature all over this game. Anderson and Hakem are Oakley and Mason, manhandle first, play ball second. Uglies the game. I hate the Heat, case you can't tell. Oh, the biggest flopper in that game was not Lance Stevenson. The last time LeBron was fined for flopping was . . . . From my perspective, falling away to avoid a blow or a foul call on yourself is completely legit. If you don't fall, only bad things can happen. A no-call in that circumstance gives the other team advantage. What's the problem. You earn an underserved foul call, whose fault is that? Ref's have a job to do. Let them do it.

In the game tonight,

PSurprise
05-22-2014, 11:44 AM
It's tough watching Danny Green have success, but I will be glad if OKC never wins a championship, given the way the team was wrenched away from Seattle.

Just remember it was Roy who was holding him back from his true potential

CDu
05-22-2014, 11:48 AM
San Antonio has been playing an effective team game for a decade and has done it with a large percentage of players from soccer playing cultures, which is where Pop cut his teeth as a pro.

That said, the beautiful game that they are now playing I think is attributable to Diaw's play as a holding striker. Sorry, guards do not make for the "beautiful" game that the Spurs have been playing. They contribute to it, no doubt, and as offspring of soccer playing cultures can maximize Diaw's extraordinary talents.

Coincidence that he played the same roll when Phoenix too played the beautiful game with a soccer filled line up who half-court game revolved around his inside play as a holding striker, only in Phoenix he scored "goals" a whole lot more than he does for the Spurs? Coincidence, the beautiful game disappeared at Phoenix when Amar'e returned and Diaw was relegated to the bench? I don't think so. And, let's not forget that MVP Nash still continued to run the show at the point. He was, however, missing the extraordinary holding striker presence that Diaw embodies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Diaw.

Diaw has an extraordinary talent that two coaches (D'Antoni in Phoenix) who played and coached in Europe recognized and built offenses that maximized that talent. He was on both teams surrounded by basketball players who grew up with soccer balls at their feet. He made the game sing because those around him knew/know his value and used it to the maximum. The beautiful game emerged because of it.

San Antonio would be great even without Diaw. However, no mistake that Pop has held onto the old guy when others have been let go, and has the ball going through his hands as often as he does during the considerable minutes that Diaw gets.

Thais is my take based upon the evidence. See Wiki. You have yours.

I'm guessing that you don't actually watch much of the Spurs play. Because if you did, you'd see that the ball is in the hands of Parker and Ginobili the vast majority of the game. Diaw is a nice role player for the Spurs, but he is hardly the key to the Spurs' beautiful offense. The key is having two players who are fantastic with the ball in their hands in Parker and Ginobili. Those two know how to use the screen beautifully, can finish in the lane at all sorts of angles, and can find shooters off the dribble whenever their path to the hoop is blocked. The Spurs use their bigs to set repeated screens for Parker and Ginobili and being ready for catch-and-shoot or pick-and-roll finish opportunities.

And Diaw was not the key to the Suns' beautiful offense either. That offense began and ended with Steve Nash. The Suns had the #1 scoring offense in the year that Nash arrived (the year before Diaw arrived) and they maintained the #1 offense for two years after Diaw left. It wasn't until Stoudamire left for New York that Phoenix lost their stronghold on the top scoring spot. Even then, with a 36 year old Nash and no Stoudamire, they were #4 in scoring. And that was a good 2.5 years after Diaw left.

Diaw is a very nice player. He is a matchup problem for teams at PF because of his passing and shooting ability. But he has always been a periphery player, and has never been the key to his team's offense. In San Antonio, he's a nice pairing with Duncan and Splitter as a 3-man rotation for 1.5 positions (the Spurs have often gone with a SF at PF and 3 guards). But what makes that offense work is that they have an offense tailored around their two brilliant ballhandlers and several terrific perimeter shooters.

moonpie23
05-22-2014, 12:31 PM
without Ibaka, the old men might sweep the young guys.,,,,

greybeard
05-22-2014, 12:49 PM
I'm guessing that you don't actually watch much of the Spurs play. Because if you did, you'd see that the ball is in the hands of Parker and Ginobili the vast majority of the game. Diaw is a nice role player for the Spurs, but he is hardly the key to the Spurs' beautiful offense. The key is having two players who are fantastic with the ball in their hands in Parker and Ginobili. Those two know how to use the screen beautifully, can finish in the lane at all sorts of angles, and can find shooters off the dribble whenever their path to the hoop is blocked. The Spurs use their bigs to set repeated screens for Parker and Ginobili and being ready for catch-and-shoot or pick-and-roll finish opportunities.

And Diaw was not the key to the Suns' beautiful offense either. That offense began and ended with Steve Nash. The Suns had the #1 scoring offense in the year that Nash arrived (the year before Diaw arrived) and they maintained the #1 offense for two years after Diaw left. It wasn't until Stoudamire left for New York that Phoenix lost their stronghold on the top scoring spot. Even then, with a 36 year old Nash and no Stoudamire, they were #4 in scoring. And that was a good 2.5 years after Diaw left.

Diaw is a very nice player. He is a matchup problem for teams at PF because of his passing and shooting ability. But he has always been a periphery player, and has never been the key to his team's offense. In San Antonio, he's a nice pairing with Duncan and Splitter as a 3-man rotation for 1.5 positions (the Spurs have often gone with a SF at PF and 3 guards). But what makes that offense work is that they have an offense tailored around their two brilliant ballhandlers and several terrific perimeter shooters.

Very good points. And you convince me that I overstated the case, but I don't think completely. I said specifically that Diaw has never been the reason either team scored as well as they did, or, if I said it, I also disowned it expressly. What I said was that he was key to the beautiful game that both the Spurs and Suns put together. Probably overstated the extent.

On the other hand, you need to check out this guy's numbers with Phoenix, which show much more than you suggest. He also was the inside presence that made their offense so extraordinary to watch, especially when Amar'e was out.

I think that commenters have come to a less nuanced and similar conclusion, saying frequently now things like, 'he does so many things for this team," and derivatives of that theme. The beautiful game that Diaw plays and creates are backdrop for the things that they see.

Some people might say that Parker is a great mid range jump shooter. I might say he has terrific balance and amazingly quick feet that permit him to change direction and pull up with the ability to maintain dynamic stability. In fact, he is extraordinary at it; perhaps the best ever. The basketball incarnation of Lionel Messi.

Which description is accurate. Both.

Perhaps, just perhaps, so it is here, albeit overstated on my part, except for a few exceptional years when Amar'e
was out and Diaw added something to how Phoenix presented that made play like THE BEAUTIFUL game, which ain't basketball. Pick and rolls, penetration to the goal and kicking for the three ball, does not quite make it for me. That said, Parker and Ginobili did make it beautiful last night, and I have to believe many other times as well. The times when Ginobili puts it together like he did last night, however, are fewer and fewer; then Diaw's role as facilitator becomes much more to the fore.

Enlightening. Thanks.

Billy Dat
05-22-2014, 12:54 PM
I thought the game was decided by indefensible no-calls, one of which I believe should have gotten Wade tossed.

I think you are letting your Miami hatred cloud your perceptions - granted, your perceptions are among the most unique on DBR.

The Pacers are no soft team, David West dishes it out as good as anyone and Hibbert, Stephenson and George are physical players, too.

I don't think Wade collided with George on purpose, look at this replay...he was going for the ball and George's body cut his legs out and the hit to the head was incidental, how could he have gotten out of the way?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHX2X8Oo4r8

I think this article nicely sums up the actual adjustments Miami made between Games 1 and 2, mostly on defense:
http://www.nba.com/heat/news_recap/adjusting-miamis-pick-and-stop

Also, not for nothing, Reggie Miller isn't even calling the Miami/Indiana series....

theAlaskanBear
05-22-2014, 01:44 PM
Very good points. And you convince me that I overstated the case, but I don't think completely. I said specifically that Diaw has never been the reason either team scored as well as they did, or, if I said it, I also disowned it expressly. What I said was that he was key to the beautiful game that both the Spurs and Suns put together. Probably overstated the extent.

On the other hand, you need to check out this guy's numbers with Phoenix, which show much more than you suggest. He also was the inside presence that made their offense so extraordinary to watch, especially when Amar'e was out.

I think that commenters have come to a less nuanced and similar conclusion, saying frequently now things like, 'he does so many things for this team," and derivatives of that theme. The beautiful game that Diaw plays and creates are backdrop for the things that they see.

Some people might say that Parker is a great mid range jump shooter. I might say he has terrific balance and amazingly quick feet that permit him to change direction and pull up with the ability to maintain dynamic stability. In fact, he is extraordinary at it; perhaps the best ever. The basketball incarnation of Lionel Messi.

Which description is accurate. Both.

Perhaps, just perhaps, so it is here, albeit overstated on my part, except for a few exceptional years when Amar'e
was out and Diaw added something to how Phoenix presented that made play like THE BEAUTIFUL game, which ain't basketball. Pick and rolls, penetration to the goal and kicking for the three ball, does not quite make it for me. That said, Parker and Ginobili did make it beautiful last night, and I have to believe many other times as well. The times when Ginobili puts it together like he did last night, however, are fewer and fewer; then Diaw's role as facilitator becomes much more to the fore.

Enlightening. Thanks.

No one is suggesting that Diaw isn't a great passer, or a uniquely talented big. But as CDu stated, he plays a complementary, not an essential role on the court. He is the kind of player that can create a match-up nightmare and make bigs plays when used correctly.

mr. synellinden
05-22-2014, 02:28 PM
A no-call by the ref who was standing next to the sideline and saw it all? And, Reggie seeing the no-call as righteous. You don't need a weatherman . . . . You "let them play" when it is picture boy for the league and the promise for an audience moving forward into the finals. Is head hunting beyond Wade's style in such circumstances, and Reggie his apologist--you be the judge. http://8points9seconds.com/2013/05/25/will-dwyane-wade-get-suspended-for-elbow-to-lance-stephensons-head/ An elbow to the head, at mid-court again, with the question posed in the media, would Wade be suspended by the League for it. Kidding right?


In the game tonight,


I think you are letting your Miami hatred cloud your perceptions - granted, your perceptions are among the most unique on DBR.

The Pacers are no soft team, David West dishes it out as good as anyone and Hibbert, Stephenson and George are physical players, too.

I don't think Wade collided with George on purpose, look at this replay...he was going for the ball and George's body cut his legs out and the hit to the head was incidental, how could he have gotten out of the way?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHX2X8Oo4r8

I think this article nicely sums up the actual adjustments Miami made between Games 1 and 2, mostly on defense:
http://www.nba.com/heat/news_recap/adjusting-miamis-pick-and-stop

Also, not for nothing, Reggie Miller isn't even calling the Miami/Indiana series....

I don't know. Do me a favor and go look at that four minute clip of dirty plays by Wade on the 8 points 9 seconds site - especially the one that to me is the most egregious - the wrestling style takedown of Rondo. Wade is a disgustingly dirty (and lots of other words that would draw wanker autocorrects) player and should not be given the benefit of the doubt. He also appears to be an expert at making contact look like it's incidental when it's intentional and very calculated. I hope he does get suspended and I think he deserves it.

CDu
05-22-2014, 02:50 PM
I don't know. Do me a favor and go look at that four minute clip of dirty plays by Wade on the 8 points 9 seconds site - especially the one that to me is the most egregious - the wrestling style takedown of Rondo. Wade is a disgustingly dirty (and lots of other words that would draw wanker autocorrects) player and should not be given the benefit of the doubt. He also appears to be an expert at making contact look like it's incidental when it's intentional and very calculated. I hope he does get suspended and I think he deserves it.

I don't think there is any doubt that Wade has a history of dirty play. However, the particular play in question was not a dirty play.

greybeard
05-22-2014, 03:29 PM
I think you are letting your Miami hatred cloud your perceptions - granted, your perceptions are among the most unique on DBR.

The Pacers are no soft team, David West dishes it out as good as anyone and Hibbert, Stephenson and George are physical players, too.

I don't think Wade collided with George on purpose, look at this replay...he was going for the ball and George's body cut his legs out and the hit to the head was incidental, how could he have gotten out of the way?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHX2X8Oo4r8

I think this article nicely sums up the actual adjustments Miami made between Games 1 and 2, mostly on defense:
http://www.nba.com/heat/news_recap/adjusting-miamis-pick-and-stop

Also, not for nothing, Reggie Miller isn't even calling the Miami/Indiana series....

I think that you need to take a better look. George takes it away, Wade pulls him down from behind and then veers to his left and "gets his legs taken out" such that he knees the guy in the head and gets him in the back with his trailing foot. Wade hurt his knee, rolling on the floor. You see him limping or favoring afterwards. He knew and was putting on a show, soccer style.

Wade, like Lebron, go into people hard, and seem to me to make the most of it when people go down, or, will clean someone's clock like Lebron did to Hibbert with a purposeful elbow square to the chin earlier this year. Lebron said afterwards that he'd have had to have been a kung foo master to have done that on purpose. Heck, in my younger days I could have done that on purpose every day of the week, and I couldn't jump.

This is Pat Riley ball which I hated when he coached the Knicks (I was at the Knicks first championship game, loved that team, and loved Patrick Ewing). I loved the Heat when they won their first Championship. Rooted for them like crazy. Riley comes in and it's Mason and Oakley, and dirty play all over the place. His stars lead the way because, hey, Patrick teaches that to be a star you must do what you must, and that includes, on the top of the list, put the other team down if it has the edge. No one can dispute that.

It was Mark Jackson who was a Heat, especially Lebron, apologist; everything they did was a great play. it was sickening. Think Jackson might be trying to make himself a perfect fit for the Cleveland job when they go after Lebron? You think for a moment that Jackson would have stood still for the play that the Heat are throwing out there if his Warriors were the opponent? He'd have plenty to say and be fully justified in saying it. That ain't the Pacers' style. Round 3 next. I think that the game is rigged and the Pacers are going down. The ratings demand it.

I did not "hate" the Heat but rather rooted like hell for them when they won their first championship. I think that since Lebron's arrival they win when outmanned by thug ball, by fouling that they get away with because, they have two of the most exciting players in the league and can.

Anybody think that the Pacers were not outplayed in the finals last year?

West is a rough player, sure. Point to something he's done in this series. Point to the head shots that the Heat take, the elbows in open space that don't get called, the oops falling on someone with your knee leading when a straight path was available or a jump or dive/roll clears George easy. How does the pull on George's arm not get called and clocking George with a knee as a consequence get considered part of the game. If Wade went down on one of those drives after West went up to block his shot and landed on Wade after putting him down because, hey, my momentum took me there, please. We are not having this conversation.

greybeard
05-22-2014, 03:56 PM
Heat.com, an unbiased source. Haslem added slam to the Heat's defense, period. So did Anderson. Hibbert would catch low and wind up going center with 12-14 feet between him and the basket, with no option if he wanted to shoot but to throw up a jump hook shot. How does that happen? They took away the middle. Really, that's an explanation? How come no jump shots. Hibbert has a killer drop step, a jump hook from the baseline, a turn around bank shot. You just take away the middle to make him bow out to 12-14 feet, he kills you the other way except if they kill you first. They took Hibbert's legs, threaten them. A push at the wrong time if you are making a quick move, boom goes the dynamite.

The outside defense showed here looked pretty good on the pick and rolls the Heat.com chose. How well did that defense work against Lance.

Those two plays I mentioned previously delivered the game to the Heat. Even if George was not in a condition such that he couldn't tell Tuesday from a garbage can and was useless the rest of the way, please, how big a point turnaround were those non calls. Even with only a flagrant 1 on Wade, I have to think between 6 and 10. That's a pretty big swing, momentum changer.

You do not defend the grab, a plain flagrant 1, covered up by the turmoil involving the kick to the head. Haslem's little surprise at the beginning of a game, you remember the message one, that Jackson was so dismissive of when the referees took so much time reviewing, maybe three points PLUS a message the other way. Maybe Haslem plays a little more, hey, basketball for the rest of the way.

Heat.com does not impress me.

The Heat's rotation that doubled when the second pass lead to an attempted penetration was terrific.

Billy Dat
05-22-2014, 04:42 PM
grey - we'll have to agree to disagree. I have never thought of the Heat, collectively, as dirty. When I googled the topic, I found a lot of mentions of others players saying Wade was dirty, and both Hibbert and West saying that Shane was a dirty player, and most of those mentions were from 1 year ago. Other than that, it doesn't seem to be a story line save for on message boards, and I don't think that is because of some pro-Heat conspiracy. Most people hate the Heat since "The Decision".

Here's some fun, our own Dahntay, himself known as a dirty player, debating whether or not the Heat are dirty with Skip Bayless
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOyNhbfORjk

I haven't seen one Pacer quoted as saying they thought Wade or Haslem's plays were dirty, and these same Pacers have not shied away from saying, in past years, that Wade or Battier were dirty. I didn't think Wade's play with George was dirty when I watched it, and I don't think its dirty when i watch the replay.

But, you have now raised my awareness and I will watch the rest of the series looking for the dirt.

InSpades
05-22-2014, 05:19 PM
I think that you need to take a better look. George takes it away, Wade pulls him down from behind and then veers to his left and "gets his legs taken out" such that he knees the guy in the head and gets him in the back with his trailing foot. Wade hurt his knee, rolling on the floor. You see him limping or favoring afterwards. He knew and was putting on a show, soccer style.


I don't think the Wade play was dirty, but it was definitely a foul. He grabbed George after the ball was taken away which is what most likely caused him to go to the ground (or at the very least prevented him from doing more with the ball). It would be pretty impressive (and somewhat reckless) for Wade to try to injure George in that manner.

Mabdul Doobakus
05-22-2014, 05:23 PM
I do think Wade has a deserved reputation as a dirty player, but, in my opinion, it takes a pretty creative interpretation of that Wade/George play to call it a dirty play by Wade. George falls to the floor and undercuts Wade's legs. Wade's eyes are on the ball during most of that time. At no point does his attention seem to be directed towards George's head. It was just two guys going after the ball.

I think the series has been played fairly cleanly (the Mario Chalmers flagrant being the exception), and don't feel the games have been unduly influenced by the refs either way. As a Duke fan and a Heat fan, I'm well used to people trying to take credit away from my teams and hand it to the refs instead. Every Duke loss this year was met with people railing against the refs. I'm not saying the refs can never have an effect on the game, but I don't understand why we as sports fans are so drawn to this storyline.

Edited to add: Could you call that Wade/George play a foul on Wade? Sure, you could. Do I think it's an egregious missed call? I do not. One of probably dozens of potential calls that are either made or not made every single game that reasonable people will disagree on.

CDu
05-22-2014, 05:47 PM
grey - we'll have to agree to disagree. I have never thought of the Heat, collectively, as dirty. When I googled the topic, I found a lot of mentions of others players saying Wade was dirty, and both Hibbert and West saying that Shane was a dirty player, and most of those mentions were from 1 year ago. Other than that, it doesn't seem to be a story line save for on message boards, and I don't think that is because of some pro-Heat conspiracy. Most people hate the Heat since "The Decision".

Here's some fun, our own Dahntay, himself known as a dirty player, debating whether or not the Heat are dirty with Skip Bayless
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOyNhbfORjk

I haven't seen one Pacer quoted as saying they thought Wade or Haslem's plays were dirty, and these same Pacers have not shied away from saying, in past years, that Wade or Battier were dirty. I didn't think Wade's play with George was dirty when I watched it, and I don't think its dirty when i watch the replay.

But, you have now raised my awareness and I will watch the rest of the series looking for the dirt.

I don't think the Heat, as a team, are dirty. I think Chalmers is dirty. And it isn't a question of "think" with Wade. He has a pretty long history of being dirty. This is not some sort of anti- Decision bias. I don't think Bosh or James are at all dirty. But Wade is, and I think Chalmers is. Andersen and Haslem are too. That is a big part of their role: to be enforcers for the big three when necessary. When you are a tough guy in the NBA, chances are you are also doing dirty stuff.

But I agree with you in that I don't think dirty play was involved in Game 2.

mr. synellinden
05-22-2014, 05:51 PM
I don't think there is any doubt that Wade has a history of dirty play. However, the particular play in question was not a dirty play.

I disagree. I'm not sure if there's any way that the knee to the head specifically could have been intentional, but I believe Wade had every intention of making contact with George in bad faith. And his history of dirtiness is definitely relevant - especially since so many of these incidents have been right after he has been made to look bad -- e.g., after an air ball and having the ball poked away from him (like the Rondo takedown) or throwing up an awkward air ball (right before the dangerous shove body block on Collison), or after Kobe blew by him on the spin move in the All-Star game. I think it's definitely relevant that this happened right after he lost the ball and George stole it from him. The way I see it - he's a viciously dirty player and his dirtiness is instigated when something happens to frustrate him.

Billy Dat
05-22-2014, 06:40 PM
I don't think the Heat, as a team, are dirty. I think Chalmers is dirty. And it isn't a question of "think" with Wade. He has a pretty long history of being dirty. This is not some sort of anti- Decision bias. I don't think Bosh or James are at all dirty. But Wade is, and I think Chalmers is. Andersen and Haslem are too. That is a big part of their role: to be enforcers for the big three when necessary. When you are a tough guy in the NBA, chances are you are also doing dirty stuff.

But I agree with you in that I don't think dirty play was involved in Game 2.

We're on the same page, my reference to "The Decision" was that if there was a reason for the nation to scream about Game 2, they would have because most people can't stand the Heat - largely due to "The Decision"

greybeard
05-22-2014, 07:04 PM
grey - we'll have to agree to disagree. I have never thought of the Heat, collectively, as dirty. When I googled the topic, I found a lot of mentions of others players saying Wade was dirty, and both Hibbert and West saying that Shane was a dirty player, and most of those mentions were from 1 year ago. Other than that, it doesn't seem to be a story line save for on message boards, and I don't think that is because of some pro-Heat conspiracy. Most people hate the Heat since "The Decision".

Here's some fun, our own Dahntay, himself known as a dirty player, debating whether or not the Heat are dirty with Skip Bayless
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOyNhbfORjk

I haven't seen one Pacer quoted as saying they thought Wade or Haslem's plays were dirty, and these same Pacers have not shied away from saying, in past years, that Wade or Battier were dirty. I didn't think Wade's play with George was dirty when I watched it, and I don't think its dirty when i watch the replay.

But, you have now raised my awareness and I will watch the rest of the series looking for the dirt.

look for great plays, combinations. I'll take care of the dirty stuff. ;)

Billy Dat
05-23-2014, 10:22 AM
look for great plays, combinations. I'll take care of the dirty stuff. ;)

greybeard...no less a popular voice than Bill Simmons is supporting your Wade-intentional-knee-to-George's head theory....

http://grantland.com/features/the-nba-simmons-self-mailbag/

"Still — Lance Stephenson missed an 8-footer that would have given Indy a five-point lead with under six minutes to play (and ignited the crowd, too). When it happened, I remember thinking, If Lance makes that shot, this is suddenly the most important 90 seconds of the season for Miami. Instead, Miami stepped on the gas pedal, LeBron and Wade took over, Wade accidentally kneed Paul George in the head and ruined him for the rest of the game (yet another “accidental” injury at the hands of Dwyane Wade, right?), and the Pacers blew a terrific chance to steal Game 2."

CDu
05-23-2014, 12:43 PM
greybeard...no less a popular voice than Bill Simmons is supporting your Wade-intentional-knee-to-George's head theory....

http://grantland.com/features/the-nba-simmons-self-mailbag/

"Still — Lance Stephenson missed an 8-footer that would have given Indy a five-point lead with under six minutes to play (and ignited the crowd, too). When it happened, I remember thinking, If Lance makes that shot, this is suddenly the most important 90 seconds of the season for Miami. Instead, Miami stepped on the gas pedal, LeBron and Wade took over, Wade accidentally kneed Paul George in the head and ruined him for the rest of the game (yet another “accidental” injury at the hands of Dwyane Wade, right?), and the Pacers blew a terrific chance to steal Game 2."

To be fair, Simmons is a Celtics fan. And outside of maybe Bulls and Pacers fans, nobody has seen more of Wade's chippy/dirty plays than Celtics fans. So he is extra sensitive.

That being said, while I still firmly believe the actual knee/foot to the head was accidental, I am starting to lean toward Wade having intentionally created the chaotic fall that resulted in the accident. So while the concussion itself wasn't a dirty act, I am now leaning more in favor of the theory that the concussion was the indirect result of a dirty play by Wade.

Billy Dat
05-23-2014, 01:21 PM
That being said, while I still firmly believe the actual knee/foot to the head was accidental, I am starting to lean toward Wade having intentionally created the chaotic fall that resulted in the accident. So while the concussion itself wasn't a dirty act, I am now leaning more in favor of the theory that the concussion was the indirect result of a dirty play by Wade.

Nice, greybeard influence is spreading!

By the way, this is interesting...

Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@WojYahooNBA 17s
Sources: There's a strong possibility that OKC's Serge Ibaka could return as soon as Game 3 on Sunday.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/serge-ibaka-could-return-for-game-3-of-the-western-conference-finals-171131400.html

Mabdul Doobakus
05-23-2014, 06:03 PM
To be fair, Simmons is a Celtics fan. And outside of maybe Bulls and Pacers fans, nobody has seen more of Wade's chippy/dirty plays than Celtics fans. So he is extra sensitive.

That being said, while I still firmly believe the actual knee/foot to the head was accidental, I am starting to lean toward Wade having intentionally created the chaotic fall that resulted in the accident. So while the concussion itself wasn't a dirty act, I am now leaning more in favor of the theory that the concussion was the indirect result of a dirty play by Wade.

I've already stated that I feel Wade's reputation as a dirty player is well earned. But, having said that...I still have a lot of trouble viewing this most recent play through that lens. Both guys were going after the ball, and it looked like Wade lightly gripped George's arm, but it's hard for me to say (1) that grabbing the arm led to George falling and (2) that Wade somehow knew grabbing the arm would cause George to fall. It's hard to see how the action at the arm is connected to the action at George's feet. I've watched this replay a dozen times. I don't see it. Sure, Wade grabs his arm. I think this is an instantaneous reaction to the loose ball, and you could call a garden variety foul there. But a garden variety foul and a dirty foul are two very different things, and if people are going to call THIS play dirty, it makes it a little harder for me to come their way of thinking when more questionable plays arise. I guess Wade has earned this sort of reaction over the years, but I promise you, if George and Wade switched roles, no one's calling that play dirty, and people are probably getting on Wade's case for milking it right after the play. People actually were getting on Wade's case on Twitter for pretending that his knee hurt right after that play.

CDu
05-23-2014, 09:28 PM
I've already stated that I feel Wade's reputation as a dirty player is well earned. But, having said that...I still have a lot of trouble viewing this most recent play through that lens. Both guys were going after the ball, and it looked like Wade lightly gripped George's arm, but it's hard for me to say (1) that grabbing the arm led to George falling and (2) that Wade somehow knew grabbing the arm would cause George to fall. It's hard to see how the action at the arm is connected to the action at George's feet. I've watched this replay a dozen times. I don't see it. Sure, Wade grabs his arm. I think this is an instantaneous reaction to the loose ball, and you could call a garden variety foul there. But a garden variety foul and a dirty foul are two very different things, and if people are going to call THIS play dirty, it makes it a little harder for me to come their way of thinking when more questionable plays arise. I guess Wade has earned this sort of reaction over the years, but I promise you, if George and Wade switched roles, no one's calling that play dirty, and people are probably getting on Wade's case for milking it right after the play. People actually were getting on Wade's case on Twitter for pretending that his knee hurt right after that play.

I don't think Wade's grab was dirty. I agree with you completely about that. But I think his dive MIGHT have been (the intent being to fall on George). I am still undecided about that, but starting to lean towards dirty.

But the reason that folks wouldn't call dirty if the roles were reversed is because Wade has a history of dirty play while George does not.

The knee grab afterward was pretty lame, but sort of in character for Wade over the last few years.

tommy
05-24-2014, 01:06 AM
I thought the game was decided by indefensible no-calls, one of which I believe should have gotten Wade tossed.

So now we turn to the real game changer, which Reggie again dismissed as just another example of boys being boys with not a mention of the way the entire sequence began. George knocked the ball away from Wade near midcourt and was about to pick up the ball and dribble unimpeded for an easy dunk when Wade from behind reached out and grabbed George by the right shoulder, which caused George to fall forward as he tried to fight his way through. The athletic Wade somehow veered to his left and made no effort to use his hops to clear the fallen George by a mile, which would have been no problem. Instead, Wade "fell" clumsily and his knee just happened to nail George in the back of the head with force sufficient to drive his forehead into the ground while his trailing leg brushed into and past George's ribs. Am I saying that Wade was out to concuss or seriously hurt George. Who cares. What he did was a deliberate attempt to hurt George to some extent and to again send a message, "by any means necessary." That, folks, has to be a flagrant II--there was intent to hurt, it came as a piece with a grab from behind after George had stolen the ball from Wade in embarrassing fashion and to avoid an easy score that was surely to follow.

OK first of all George, had he gotten away with the ball cleanly, would not have been dribbling in unimpeded for an easy dunk. The Heat had two players (other than Wade) back already, so even if Wade did anything intentionally, it wasn't to save a sure basket, because there was no sure basket coming.

I reviewed this play a number of times in slo-mo, frame by frame. Your next error is in stating that Wade "reached out and grabbed George by the right shoulder." He did not. As George reached down for the ball with his right arm, Wade's left hand grabs George's right biceps area. He didn't pull him down by his shoulder. At all. George then fights off Wade's left hand with his own right hand, and the ball is down on George's left side. Wade is still upright, and does not look to be falling. Instead, it is George who begins to fall, and because of his momentum - which may or may not have been caused by Wade's hand to his bicep - it is George who falls to his right, directly into Wade's legs, and taking those legs out from underneath him. I wish I knew how to link a particular frame from a youtube video, because I'd link the one that has George parallel to the ground with his body turned such that his butt is undercutting the upright Wade's left knee and hip. Wade then attempts -- too late, but he at least tried -- to leapfrog George, who continues to roll into him, and in so doing his left knee hits the still-moving-into-him George in the head. There was absolutely nowhere else that Wade's knee could've gone other than where it did. There was no space for him to move it in any other direction, even had he had the time to do so. There is simply no way that the knee to George's head could've been intentional. It couldn't have been intentional when viewed in frame-by-frame and there is simply no way, at game speed, meaning split second, that a conscious decision could have been made and executed to try to injure George, especially when considering that it was Wade who was in danger of having his knee ligaments torn as George rolled into him. If anything, Wade was in self-protection mode for his own knees, rather than in hunting mode vis-a-vis Paul George.

What bothers me more though about the discussion is the reduction of Dwyane Wade and his career to a "is he a dirty player or not?" question. I personally don't believe he is, but regardless, what is lost in discussions like this is the fact that he is a simply brilliant player. He is a certain Hall of Famer, one who led the Heat to one championship as the top dog and has been 1A to LeBron's 1 for (at least) two more. He has demonstrated over the course of his career a very versatile game, as he has a terrific handle, can always get into the lane, he gets to the line, he makes outside shots, he makes difficult shots, he fills the stat sheet, he has always been a spectacular shot blocker for a guard. He simply has done it all throughout his career, including coming up big in almost all of the pressure-packed moments of his career. He's not the same player as he was five years ago. Of course not. But I don't think it's fair to try to diminish the brilliance of his career and the scope of his achievements by the kind of 'yes he is' 'no he isn't' kind of bickering. He's a great, great player, and a winner.

mr. synellinden
05-24-2014, 02:07 AM
What bothers me more though about the discussion is the reduction of Dwyane Wade and his career to a "is he a dirty player or not?" question. I personally don't believe he is,

Putting aside his talent, and yes, I agree he is a great, great player and a sure Hall of Famer - did you watch the video linked above? If so, how do you respond to some of those egregious plays, such as the intentional knee to the groin, the takedown of Rondo, the body slam on Collison, the two handed shove of Hamilton … are those not cheap, dirty plays?

CDu
05-24-2014, 09:41 AM
OK first of all George, had he gotten away with the ball cleanly, would not have been dribbling in unimpeded for an easy dunk. The Heat had two players (other than Wade) back already, so even if Wade did anything intentionally, it wasn't to save a sure basket, because there was no sure basket coming.

I reviewed this play a number of times in slo-mo, frame by frame. Your next error is in stating that Wade "reached out and grabbed George by the right shoulder." He did not. As George reached down for the ball with his right arm, Wade's left hand grabs George's right biceps area. He didn't pull him down by his shoulder. At all. George then fights off Wade's left hand with his own right hand, and the ball is down on George's left side. Wade is still upright, and does not look to be falling. Instead, it is George who begins to fall, and because of his momentum - which may or may not have been caused by Wade's hand to his bicep - it is George who falls to his right, directly into Wade's legs, and taking those legs out from underneath him. I wish I knew how to link a particular frame from a youtube video, because I'd link the one that has George parallel to the ground with his body turned such that his butt is undercutting the upright Wade's left knee and hip. Wade then attempts -- too late, but he at least tried -- to leapfrog George, who continues to roll into him, and in so doing his left knee hits the still-moving-into-him George in the head. There was absolutely nowhere else that Wade's knee could've gone other than where it did. There was no space for him to move it in any other direction, even had he had the time to do so. There is simply no way that the knee to George's head could've been intentional. It couldn't have been intentional when viewed in frame-by-frame and there is simply no way, at game speed, meaning split second, that a conscious decision could have been made and executed to try to injure George, especially when considering that it was Wade who was in danger of having his knee ligaments torn as George rolled into him. If anything, Wade was in self-protection mode for his own knees, rather than in hunting mode vis-a-vis Paul George.

What bothers me more though about the discussion is the reduction of Dwyane Wade and his career to a "is he a dirty player or not?" question. I personally don't believe he is, but regardless, what is lost in discussions like this is the fact that he is a simply brilliant player. He is a certain Hall of Famer, one who led the Heat to one championship as the top dog and has been 1A to LeBron's 1 for (at least) two more. He has demonstrated over the course of his career a very versatile game, as he has a terrific handle, can always get into the lane, he gets to the line, he makes outside shots, he makes difficult shots, he fills the stat sheet, he has always been a spectacular shot blocker for a guard. He simply has done it all throughout his career, including coming up big in almost all of the pressure-packed moments of his career. He's not the same player as he was five years ago. Of course not. But I don't think it's fair to try to diminish the brilliance of his career and the scope of his achievements by the kind of 'yes he is' 'no he isn't' kind of bickering. He's a great, great player, and a winner.

Wade is absolutely a great player. One of the best few players of his era, in an era that included several great players. There is no debating this. Wade is ALSO a dirty player. The evidence of this is extensive. There really shouldn't be a debate on this either.

The discussion of Wade's dirtiness is not an attempt to diminish his greatness as a player. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive. Isiah Thomas was one of the greatest players and winners in NBA history. He was also an extremely dirty player. Thomas' dirtiness hasn't diminished his legacy, just like Wade's dirtiness won't diminish his.

kAzE
05-24-2014, 03:59 PM
Wade is absolutely a great player. One of the best few players of his era, in an era that included several great players. There is no debating this. Wade is ALSO a dirty player. The evidence of this is extensive. There really shouldn't be a debate on this either.

The discussion of Wade's dirtiness is not an attempt to diminish his greatness as a player. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive. Isiah Thomas was one of the greatest players and winners in NBA history. He was also an extremely dirty player. Thomas' dirtiness hasn't diminished his legacy, just like Wade's dirtiness won't diminish his.

Yep, greatness often comes with some very iffy behavior on the court. Just watch the 30 for 30 on the bad boy pistons, Laimbeer was basically a pro wrestler in a pistons uniform back then. Also, if you asked players in the 90s about some of the dirtiest players back then, a lot of guys would tell you to watch out for John Stockon's elbows. He was really underrated for how much stuff he did. Wade is definitely one guy you need to watch out for, and his physicality is reason number one that he's been so successful. In his defense, he's taken just as much, if not more punishment than he's dished out. That doesn't take anything away from his accomplishments as a player, he's just not necessarily someone you would want to play against if you're looking to have a clean game.

CDu
05-24-2014, 05:44 PM
Yep, greatness often comes with some very iffy behavior on the court. Just watch the 30 for 30 on the bad boy pistons, Laimbeer was basically a pro wrestler in a pistons uniform back then. Also, if you asked players in the 90s about some of the dirtiest players back then, a lot of guys would tell you to watch out for John Stockon's elbows. He was really underrated for how much stuff he did. Wade is definitely one guy you need to watch out for, and his physicality is reason number one that he's been so successful. In his defense, he's taken just as much, if not more punishment than he's dished out. That doesn't take anything away from his accomplishments as a player, he's just not necessarily someone you would want to play against if you're looking to have a clean game.

Agreed. I feel like ignoring Wade's dirty play and just talking about his greatness is just the same sort of folly as ignoring his great play and talking only about his dirtiness. When talking about a player we should be mature enough to accept discussion of all facets of his game.

There has been plenty of (well-earned) discussion of Wade's greatness. It is just that, at the moment, the dirty stuff is the more relevant topic of discussion. He is still a productive player, but no longer at the great level (due to age and injury) enough to be noteworthy. But what WAS noteworthy was the injury to George, which has brought Wade's history of dirty play back to the forefront.

When Wade has another dominant performance, we can talk about his greatness again.

Tripping William
05-24-2014, 06:15 PM
Also, if you asked players in the 90s about some of the dirtiest players back then, a lot of guys would tell you to watch out for John Stockon's elbows. He was really underrated for how much stuff he did.

Stockton was definitely underrated, for a lot of things. But he wasn't dirty. Tough, yes. Hard-nosed, yes. Not-give-a-millimeter, yes. But not dirty. Having grown up in Utah in his heyday, that's my story & I'm stickin' to it. :)

tommy
05-24-2014, 07:32 PM
Agreed. I feel like ignoring Wade's dirty play and just talking about his greatness is just the same sort of folly as ignoring his great play and talking only about his dirtiness. When talking about a player we should be mature enough to accept discussion of all facets of his game.

There has been plenty of (well-earned) discussion of Wade's greatness. It is just that, at the moment, the dirty stuff is the more relevant topic of discussion. He is still a productive player, but no longer at the great level (due to age and injury) enough to be noteworthy. But what WAS noteworthy was the injury to George, which has brought Wade's history of dirty play back to the forefront.

When Wade has another dominant performance, we can talk about his greatness again.

OK, but nobody here is. For instance, in the must-win Game 2 on the road, he and 23 points on 10 of 16 shooting, 5 rebounds and 5 assists, including 10-2-2 in the fourth quarter, leading the Heat comeback along with LeBron, of course. In almost all of the media reports of the game that I have seen, it has raved about Wade's performance, and there has been nary a mention of the play with George being a dirty play. I guess it's just the nature of message boards that here, nobody talked about how great Wade's play was, but we have about 20 posts debating whether or not it was a dirty play. Sigh.

CDu
05-24-2014, 07:58 PM
OK, but nobody here is. For instance, in the must-win Game 2 on the road, he and 23 points on 10 of 16 shooting, 5 rebounds and 5 assists, including 10-2-2 in the fourth quarter, leading the Heat comeback along with LeBron, of course. In almost all of the media reports of the game that I have seen, it has raved about Wade's performance, and there has been nary a mention of the play with George being a dirty play. I guess it's just the nature of message boards that here, nobody talked about how great Wade's play was, but we have about 20 posts debating whether or not it was a dirty play. Sigh.

Okay. Here you go: Wade had a great game in Game 2. Unfortunately for him, he was also at the center of the biggest story of Game 2, which was the injury to George on what might have been a dirty play by Wade.

Wade has long been a great player. He has also developed (in his later years) a penchant for dirty plays. Is that balanced enough for you?

tommy
05-24-2014, 08:13 PM
Okay. Here you go: Wade had a great game in Game 2. Unfortunately for him, he was also at the center of the biggest story of Game 2, which was the injury to George on what might have been a dirty play by Wade.

Wade has long been a great player. He has also developed (in his later years) a penchant for dirty plays. Is that balanced enough for you?

I hardly think the play with George was the biggest story of Game 2. George shot 4 of 16 for a pedestrian 14 points, and did not impact the game as much as several other guys on his own team. Moreover, it wasn't the biggest "story" of the game. Unless I'm misremembering, I don't think the announcers even floated the possibility that it could have been a dirty play, and of the news reports of the game that I've seen online (I've looked at three or four) there has been no mention of the play being a dirty, or potentially dirty one. In a couple of them, the injury to George wasn't even mentioned.

I guess my comments on this issue have to do more with the fact that much, much more is being made of this play, and of Wade's reputation for being a dirty player, on these boards than is being made anywhere else. I'm actually happy to see that in the major media, Wade's greatness, or at least his greatness in Game 2, has been the focus, rather than the play that involved George. I wish it was so on these boards, as I respect the intelligence and analysis of so many on here (including you) but in this instance, unfortunately the focus has been on the wrong things IMO.

Mabdul Doobakus
05-24-2014, 10:06 PM
Well, I think we all agree Wade has been a great player and has had a great career and was great in Game 2, so there's only going to be so much you can about all that. Arguments are what drive discussion on these message boards.

Moving to the game at hand. What a mess. Indiana absolutely manhandled Miami for most of the first half, before they started committing turnovers at the end of the half a rate I would have thought impossible. Miami at one point was way ahead in turnovers, and now somehow it is Indiana with 12 and Miami with 11. I can't chalk all of this up to good defense. There has been some horrendous decision-making and execution on offense on both ends.

Miami is lucky to be in this game. I've always been a supporter of Chris Bosh, but I honestly think the biggest moment in this game so far was Bosh picking up his 3rd foul and going to the bench. Bosh got repeatedly schooled by Scola, couldn't hit a shot, and couldn't grab a rebound. Rashard Lewis came in at least played some defense and didn't let up any easy rebounds as far as I could tell.

Miami has come out flat every single half in this series. Hopefully that changes right now.

kAzE
05-24-2014, 11:46 PM
Stockton was definitely underrated, for a lot of things. But he wasn't dirty. Tough, yes. Hard-nosed, yes. Not-give-a-millimeter, yes. But not dirty. Having grown up in Utah in his heyday, that's my story & I'm stickin' to it. :)

Not hating on Stockton, I have a ton of respect for anyone that size who can do what he did in the league, but I'm not pulling that out of nowhere. He's pretty much on every "Dirtiest NBA players of all time" list, and for good reason:

http://www.therichest.com/sports/basketball-sports/top-10-dirtiest-nba-players-of-all-time/2/ (#9 on this list)
http://www.complex.com/sports/2013/05/the-dirtiest-players-in-nba-history/john-stockton (#11)
http://www.hoopsvibe.com/features/170205-top-10-dirtiest-nba-players (#5)
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1634481-the-10-dirtiest-nba-players-in-league-history/page/3 (#9)

theAlaskanBear
05-25-2014, 07:21 AM
And Ray Allen just continues to prove he is the greatest shooter who ever lived.

Des Esseintes
05-25-2014, 09:37 AM
And Ray Allen just continues to prove he is the greatest shooter who ever lived.

But sure, Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce, keep not-talking to him because he wanted to continue playing in the biggest games.

duke09hms
05-25-2014, 12:11 PM
But sure, Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce, keep not-talking to him because he wanted to continue playing in the biggest games.

lol who are those guys?

Des Esseintes
05-25-2014, 02:04 PM
I hardly think the play with George was the biggest story of Game 2. George shot 4 of 16 for a pedestrian 14 points, and did not impact the game as much as several other guys on his own team. Moreover, it wasn't the biggest "story" of the game. Unless I'm misremembering, I don't think the announcers even floated the possibility that it could have been a dirty play, and of the news reports of the game that I've seen online (I've looked at three or four) there has been no mention of the play being a dirty, or potentially dirty one. In a couple of them, the injury to George wasn't even mentioned.

I guess my comments on this issue have to do more with the fact that much, much more is being made of this play, and of Wade's reputation for being a dirty player, on these boards than is being made anywhere else. I'm actually happy to see that in the major media, Wade's greatness, or at least his greatness in Game 2, has been the focus, rather than the play that involved George. I wish it was so on these boards, as I respect the intelligence and analysis of so many on here (including you) but in this instance, unfortunately the focus has been on the wrong things IMO.

What leaps out to me at this point are the dividends getting paid out for Spoelstra's regular season handling of Wade. Wade sat so much earlier in the year, basically never playing on the second night of back-to-backs. Wade has now scored 20+ several games in a row on 50+% shooting, whereas last year he was hobbled much of the postseason. The Heat really suffered for that diminution in 2013. With the rest of the roster behind LeBron and Wade measurably weaker this year than last, having a close-to-full-strength Wade has been massive. Kudos to Spoelstra, who got handed the best job in the league and has really grown into deserving it. (As always, Popovich led the way with this sort of thing. Still the king, that guy.)

Billy Dat
05-25-2014, 10:28 PM
What leaps out to me at this point are the dividends getting paid out for Spoelstra's regular season handling of Wade. Wade sat so much earlier in the year, basically never playing on the second night of back-to-backs. Wade has now scored 20+ several games in a row on 50+% shooting, whereas last year he was hobbled much of the postseason. The Heat really suffered for that diminution in 2013. With the rest of the roster behind LeBron and Wade measurably weaker this year than last, having a close-to-full-strength Wade has been massive. Kudos to Spoelstra, who got handed the best job in the league and has really grown into deserving it. (As always, Popovich led the way with this sort of thing. Still the king, that guy.)

Yeah man, Wade has looked super sharp. He and Lebron have really learned how to play off of each other these many years, and when they both have it going and 1-2 guys are making outside shots, they are a big problem. Norris Cole has been excellent these past few games as well.

kAzE
05-25-2014, 11:35 PM
What leaps out to me at this point are the dividends getting paid out for Spoelstra's regular season handling of Wade. Wade sat so much earlier in the year, basically never playing on the second night of back-to-backs. Wade has now scored 20+ several games in a row on 50+% shooting, whereas last year he was hobbled much of the postseason. The Heat really suffered for that diminution in 2013. With the rest of the roster behind LeBron and Wade measurably weaker this year than last, having a close-to-full-strength Wade has been massive. Kudos to Spoelstra, who got handed the best job in the league and has really grown into deserving it. (As always, Popovich led the way with this sort of thing. Still the king, that guy.)

Imagine another coach actually taking a page from pop's book. You'd figure these guys would understand the importance of managing minutes to preserve players for the playoffs, but it guess it's too difficult a concept for many coaches. I'm just gonna call out thibodeau . . . Great coach, but there's a reason his key players are always playing hurt, out with injuries, or otherwise running on life support by the end of the year.

jimsumner
05-26-2014, 09:55 AM
And Ray Allen just continues to prove he is the greatest shooter who ever lived.

As a pure shooter, I'll take Reggie Miller at his peak over anyone.

kAzE
05-26-2014, 01:37 PM
As a pure shooter, I'll take Reggie Miller at his peak over anyone.

I'll take Stephen Curry over both of them.

CDu
05-26-2014, 01:38 PM
Imagine another coach actually taking a page from pop's book. You'd figure these guys would understand the importance of managing minutes to preserve players for the playoffs, but it guess it's too difficult a concept for many coaches. I'm just gonna call out thibodeau . . . Great coach, but there's a reason his key players are always playing hurt, out with injuries, or otherwise running on life support by the end of the year.

Sadly, I must agree. Thibs can X-and-O and motivate his players with the best of them. But he simply does not have it in his DNA to think big picture. He's looking to win every single quarter of every single game. So he plays his best players tons of minutes during the regular season. I think his overuse of Rose and Noah led to their injuries in the 76ers series a few years back. And he ran Butler and Noah into the ground this year. I'd love it if Thibs could take a page out of the Popovich book like Spoelstra did.

theAlaskanBear
05-26-2014, 02:41 PM
As a pure shooter, I'll take Reggie Miller at his peak over anyone.

An interesting argument, for sure. Maybe I suffer from recency bias because I was too young to watch Reggie mid-90s.

Statistically, Ray Allen is a better career three point shooter (by percentage). But there are many different ways to look it. For instance, who had a better peak? Miller had a slightly more efficient peak -- 5 seasons from 94-98, he made 879 threes on a .421 shooting percentage. Allens best 5 season stretch occurred from 2000-2004 with 952 threes on a .412 percentage (or a more recent stretch from 09-13 he hit 757 on .414). Of course, overall shooting ability doesn't stop at the 3-pt line. Reggie Miller bests Allen in FG% (shooting 50+% from 2) and Ray Allen beats Miller in FT%.

Overall, I still think I would give the edge to Allen, due to being more consistent throughout his career and undeniably better playoff stats.

vick
05-26-2014, 03:23 PM
An interesting argument, for sure. Maybe I suffer from recency bias because I was too young to watch Reggie mid-90s.

Statistically, Ray Allen is a better career three point shooter (by percentage). But there are many different ways to look it. For instance, who had a better peak? Miller had a slightly more efficient peak -- 5 seasons from 94-98, he made 879 threes on a .421 shooting percentage. Allens best 5 season stretch occurred from 2000-2004 with 952 threes on a .412 percentage (or a more recent stretch from 09-13 he hit 757 on .414). Of course, overall shooting ability doesn't stop at the 3-pt line. Reggie Miller bests Allen in FG% (shooting 50+% from 2) and Ray Allen beats Miller in FT%.

Overall, I still think I would give the edge to Allen, due to being more consistent throughout his career and undeniably better playoff stats.

Three point line was shorter 95-97, so not quite an apples-to-apples comparison there.

Des Esseintes
05-26-2014, 04:17 PM
Sadly, I must agree. Thibs can X-and-O and motivate his players with the best of them. But he simply does not have it in his DNA to think big picture. He's looking to win every single quarter of every single game. So he plays his best players tons of minutes during the regular season. I think his overuse of Rose and Noah led to their injuries in the 76ers series a few years back. And he ran Butler and Noah into the ground this year. I'd love it if Thibs could take a page out of the Popovich book like Spoelstra did.

I wonder if a broader psychological effect than Thibodeau's personal makeup is at work here, too. It's probably not an accident that in Popovich and Spoelstra, we're talking about two guys blessed with a) rings and b) currently title-contending teams. That's massive job security, and that massiveness allows for the luxury of getting to look beyond the importance of each and every regular season game. Spoelstra didn't implement this strategy until this season, and while Wade's crumbling knees are primary in that decision, so too is the additional rope gained by going back to back.

NBA players are notoriously loth to throw up quarter-ending heaves because they know it will, even if only by a tiny margin, damage their three-point percentage. If players exercise that sort of self-interested restraint, I find it hard to blame coaches, who generally make less and have less job security, for looking with circumspection on a strategy that sacrifices regular season winning percentage for *possible* playoff dividends. In the case of the Heat, they very likely gave up home court advantage to Indiana. The trade was a correct one, but it is only correct if your team is good enough with its superior rest to overcome a tougher route through the playoff bracket and the main opponent's HCA. The Heat fully qualify by those criteria, but the list beyond them and San Antonio must by definition be short. OKC qualifies, definitely, but Scotty is a fool. Indiana, too, but they've never been elite before, and the past few months have been a sterling demonstration of how awkward they are finding life in Prosperityville. The Clippers were also there, although CP3's injury kind of obviates the debate, since he was physically unable to play too many minutes. After that? Maybe Houston, where Harden and Howard played an absolute ton.

Just to return to the case of Thibodeau, too--and I'm aware you as a Bulls fan know this far better than I do--but separating the grinder mentality from team performance may be impossible with that guy. This year's Bulls team was given up for dead after the Deng trade. That they not only survived but flourished following that trade is just the most massive tribute to Thibodeau's coaching and the competitive lions backboning the squad. Part of what makes him great is his ability to get his guys to play like dobermans on Benzedrine. Asking this year's team to have rested more is like asking the German blitzkrieg to drive more slowly to conserve gasoline. Dialing back even a smidge might have meant more than falling to the 5- or 6-seed; it might have meant no playoffs at all. All that said, I completely agree that the Rose-led title contender teams would have benefited from less game-by-game, quarter-by-quarter competitive obsession.

Mabdul Doobakus
05-26-2014, 09:33 PM
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24573249/video-frank-vogel-attempts-closeout-on-heat-corner-three

Video of Vogel seemingly doing what he can to mess with Shane Battier on a three point attempt. I'm not sure I've ever seen that before, but at the same time it wouldn't shock me if it happened all the time.

Mabdul Doobakus
05-26-2014, 09:59 PM
Here's Vogel on Norris Cole in Game 2:

http://stats.nba.com/gameDetail.html?GameID=0041300302&tabView=boxscore&SeasonType=Playoffs&Season=2013-14&TeamID=1610612748&PlayerID=202708&ContextMeasure=FG3M&ContextFilter=TEAM_GAME_LOCATION=%27Road%27&pv=1&vt=Norris%20Cole||3%20Point%20Field%20Goals%20Made %20during%20Miami%20Heat%20vs.%20Indiana%20Pacers% 20-%20Tuesday,%20May%2020th,%202014

Small sample size, but this doesn't seem very effective.

Billy Dat
05-27-2014, 09:32 AM
First off, Vogel doing that stuff is a complete and utter joke. What a clown. I have also seen Miami assistant David Fizdale do that stuff...I am sure there are others That is SO weak.

Last night was Lebron in full. That guy mastered every aspect of the game and, aside from some of his silly post-big-play shucking and jiving, he was surgeon like. The fact that Miami dominated Indiana like that, without Birdman, was astonishing.

I can't quite get what is wrong with Indiana on offense. Obviously, Stephenson was in big foul trouble last night, and that makes Indiana much easier to defend. But, Indiana is literally getting nothing inside. Most of West's baskets were 15 footers, and Hibbert doesn't even get touches. Is it the blitzing Miami perimeter pressure and double team traps, or is Indiana just clueless about how to get the ball to their bigs? They did a much better job of feeding the post last year.

Let's see what happens in OKC tonight. Will Ibaka's solid return continue, and can OKC even this series up and make it interesting? Heading into the Conference Finals, it really looked like San Antonio was headed for a ring. The way Miami has upped their game over the last 3 games, though, I think a San Antonio/Miami final will be a real war.

As for our Duke-related interests, it looks like we're going to keep seeing Shane play those end of Q1, start of Q2 bench minutes and that's it. Things can change, obviously, but he he fallen below Rashard Lewis and Udonis Haslem, at least for this series.

Mabdul Doobakus
05-27-2014, 12:45 PM
First off, Vogel doing that stuff is a complete and utter joke. What a clown. I have also seen Miami assistant David Fizdale do that stuff...I am sure there are others That is SO weak.

Last night was Lebron in full. That guy mastered every aspect of the game and, aside from some of his silly post-big-play shucking and jiving, he was surgeon like. The fact that Miami dominated Indiana like that, without Birdman, was astonishing.

I can't quite get what is wrong with Indiana on offense. Obviously, Stephenson was in big foul trouble last night, and that makes Indiana much easier to defend. But, Indiana is literally getting nothing inside. Most of West's baskets were 15 footers, and Hibbert doesn't even get touches. Is it the blitzing Miami perimeter pressure and double team traps, or is Indiana just clueless about how to get the ball to their bigs? They did a much better job of feeding the post last year.

Let's see what happens in OKC tonight. Will Ibaka's solid return continue, and can OKC even this series up and make it interesting? Heading into the Conference Finals, it really looked like San Antonio was headed for a ring. The way Miami has upped their game over the last 3 games, though, I think a San Antonio/Miami final will be a real war.

As for our Duke-related interests, it looks like we're going to keep seeing Shane play those end of Q1, start of Q2 bench minutes and that's it. Things can change, obviously, but he he fallen below Rashard Lewis and Udonis Haslem, at least for this series.

I was gonna say that I'd seen a lot of Heat games and couldn't recall Fizdale doing what Vogel did (which is true), but it just turns out I hadn't noticed. Here you go...

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/22381172/video-heat-assistant-coach-and-juwan-howard-try-to-distract-danny-green

Fizdale AND Juwan Howard, and again this tactic fails.


I don't know what's going on with Indiana's offense either. It seemed like in Game 1 they got deep post position wherever they wanted it. Last night, it seemed like they barely tried to post at all.

Also, there's this from my Twitter feed: " In Game 4, Heat: 27 drives for 33 pts, Pacers: 11 drives for 10 pts. George: 0 drives, LeBron: 10 drives"

It looked like a lackadaisical offensive effort until the last 6 minutes of the game, and the numbers seem to support that.

This Heat team has been pretty good at closing out series when they're ahead 3-1. I believe they're 7-0, though a couple of those games were in somewhat miraculous fashion (2011 vs Chicago, and this year vs Brooklyn).

Des Esseintes
05-27-2014, 01:06 PM
I was gonna say that I'd seen a lot of Heat games and couldn't recall Fizdale doing what Vogel did (which is true), but it just turns out I hadn't noticed. Here you go...

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/22381172/video-heat-assistant-coach-and-juwan-howard-try-to-distract-danny-green

Fizdale AND Juwan Howard, and again this tactic fails.


I don't know what's going on with Indiana's offense either. It seemed like in Game 1 they got deep post position wherever they wanted it. Last night, it seemed like they barely tried to post at all.

Also, there's this from my Twitter feed: " In Game 4, Heat: 27 drives for 33 pts, Pacers: 11 drives for 10 pts. George: 0 drives, LeBron: 10 drives"

It looked like a lackadaisical offensive effort until the last 6 minutes of the game, and the numbers seem to support that.

This Heat team has been pretty good at closing out series when they're ahead 3-1. I believe they're 7-0, though a couple of those games were in somewhat miraculous fashion (2011 vs Chicago, and this year vs Brooklyn).

The Koach Kloseout is unfortunately a pretty common behavior among the younger NBA coaches. No idea why. I agree with everyone else who feels it's self-diminishing. Vinny Del Negro was a regular offender on this score.

Credit Miami with dialing up its defensive pressure the past few games. That frenetic trapping style can be overwhelming when the Heat are hitting their marks, and this series (sans G1) they have been. Combine that with a Pacers team who has historically struggled with turnovers and who on top of that has been in a months-long offensive doldrums, and you have Miami looking like worldbeaters. Which, you know, they may well be. That's kind of their thing.

TexHawk
05-27-2014, 01:36 PM
The Koach Kloseout is unfortunately a pretty common behavior among the younger NBA coaches. No idea why. I agree with everyone else who feels it's self-diminishing. Vinny Del Negro was a regular offender on this score.

My brain can weirdly rationalize NBA coaches doing this... They are dealing with professional shooters who make corner threes with extreme regularity. I mean, what if Vogel had thrown off Ray Allen on one of those threes in Game 3? It would absolutely be worth it.

I cannot handle it outside of the professional ranks. Scott Drew is famous for this in NCAA hoops. Not only does he try to intimidate 18 year-old kids by running at them when they raise their arms to shoot, he also heckles opposing free throw shooters. (Not joking.)

Henderson
05-27-2014, 07:14 PM
Scott Drew is famous for this in NCAA hoops. Not only does he try to intimidate 18 year-old kids by running at them when they raise their arms to shoot, he also heckles opposing free throw shooters. (Not joking.)

I'm sure there is plenty of video evidence of this, so how about a few links TexHawk?

Mabdul Doobakus
05-28-2014, 10:18 PM
Bizarre game, so far. Lebron has barely played thanks to foul trouble, yet Miami still has a 6 pt lead midway through the 3rd quarter. Indiana has to taste blood here. I mean, if they can't pull this one out, I don't know what to say...

Fouls 2, 3, and 5 on Lebron were questionable, at best. I didn't see #4 because my satellite went out (still is out...watching on WatchESPN). If Miami somehow pulls this out, Paul George isn't going to have much to say, I would imagine.