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FerryFor50
04-18-2014, 07:59 PM
The Dawkins thread, and to a lesser extent, the McRoberts thread, got me thinking... through the years, we've had a number of players that fans seem to want to see playing more than the coaching staff, for whatever reason. Just off the top of my head, here's who I remember:

Marty Pocius
Andre Dawkins
Bill McCaffrey
Brian Zoubek
Shav Randolph

Who else can you think of that just didn't get the minutes you felt he deserved?

GGLC
04-18-2014, 08:02 PM
Kyrie

freshmanjs
04-18-2014, 08:04 PM
The Dawkins thread, and to a lesser extent, the McRoberts thread, got me thinking... through the years, we've had a number of players that fans seem to want to see playing more than the coaching staff, for whatever reason. Just off the top of my head, here's who I remember:

Marty Pocius
Andre Dawkins
Bill McCaffrey
Brian Zoubek
Shav Randolph

Who else can you think of that just didn't get the minutes you felt he deserved?

McCaffrey played 25mpg as a soph (3rd on team behind hurley and laettner and more than grant hill) and started 21 games. how much more do you think he "deserved?"

FerryFor50
04-18-2014, 08:06 PM
McCaffrey played 25mpg as a soph and started 21 games. how much more do you think he "deserved?"

Did I say *I* thought he deserved more?

I commonly hear people talk about how much more McCaffrey should have played. And he transferred to play more.

Feel free to stay on topic, though. :)

freshmanjs
04-18-2014, 08:08 PM
Did I say *I* thought he deserved more?

I commonly hear people talk about how much more McCaffrey should have played. And he transferred to play more.

Feel free to stay on topic, though. :)


he transferred to play pg as prep for the nba. not because of lack of playing time.

CDu
04-18-2014, 08:09 PM
I'm not sure McCaffrey would have made my list. He was a fairly regular starter (25mpg) on the 1991 title team.

I'd add Elliot Williams to the list. I'm sure some will add Ojeleye, Gbinije, and Murphy, though I'm pretty agnostic on them. I personally feel like Zoubek got just the right amount of minutes over his first three years. Once he figured it out as a senior, he played a lot.

So Elliot Williams leads the list for me. After that, maybe Pocius. Then maybe Dawkins (especially this year, probably in place of some of Thornton's minutes). But beyond that I think Coach K has gotten the right guys on the floor.

CDu
04-18-2014, 08:11 PM
he transferred to play pg as prep for the nba. not because of lack of playing time.

Yup. He knew his only shot at the NBA was at PG. And he wasn't going to play PG at Duke. Had he stayed, he'd have played ~30 mpg as a junior on a championship team. It was the opportunity to show his PG game that he wanted.

FerryFor50
04-18-2014, 08:14 PM
he transferred to play pg as prep for the nba. not because of lack of playing time.

Well, like I said, not necessarily on *my* list... just one of the names I've heard tossed around.

Eliot Williams isn't a great comp either, since he left to be closer to his ailing mother and *did* end up playing a lot more minutes later in the season. But he does fall into the "what if" category, similarly to "what if McCaffrey had stuck around."

Edouble
04-18-2014, 08:15 PM
The Dawkins thread, and to a lesser extent, the McRoberts thread, got me thinking... through the years, we've had a number of players that fans seem to want to see playing more than the coaching staff, for whatever reason. Just off the top of my head, here's who I remember:

Marty Pocius
Andre Dawkins
Bill McCaffrey
Brian Zoubek
Shav Randolph

Who else can you think of that just didn't get the minutes you felt he deserved?

For me, it's not always minutes, but there were some guys I wanted to see featured in the offense more. I wished that we had gotten Mason and Miles the ball down low more often in the 2011-12 season. No, they were not polished, but I thought we could maybe play through some rough patches.

I remember McCaffrey and Shav getting plenty of minutes. I kept waiting for Shav to explode, which he did in the 2004 tournament a bit, but I never really had a problem with the PT he got.

Funny you should mention Dawkins, as I actually wanted much less Dawkins and much more Michael Gbinije during the 2011-12 season, just to see if he could play better D and get some rebounds. Dawkins' body language was awful that year, and now we know much more of the back story.

I was never in the Marty camp. I always kind of wanted to see more of Taylor King, but apparently he was a prima donna that didn't care about D. I just got the impression that he could score 20 points very quickly.

I have probably never wanted more time for any player in all my years of watching Duke hoops than the extra minutes that I wanted for Marshall this past season. I stand by that. Kid delivered consistently when he was in.

chadlee989
04-19-2014, 12:41 AM
Alex Murphy
Marty Clark
Marty Pocius
Lee Melchionni
Any walk on (means we winning)

Des Esseintes
04-19-2014, 12:41 AM
While it's slightly different from the original thread idea, I admit I often wonder what could have been had we kept Seth Curry at the point in '11-'12. Maybe it would have turned out untenable, as K decided. But I do question whether the plug was pulled too early on a lineup that could have assuaged some of the perimeter-based size and athleticism limitations of that team.

mattman91
04-19-2014, 01:14 AM
Eric Boateng (sp?)
Jamal Boykin
Olek Czyz (are you not entertained?!)

CameronBornAndBred
04-19-2014, 02:09 AM
I'm not sure McCaffrey would have made my list. He was a fairly regular starter (25mpg) on the 1991 title team.

I'd add Elliot Williams to the list. I'm sure some will add Ojeleye, Gbinije, and Murphy, though I'm pretty agnostic on them. I personally feel like Zoubek got just the right amount of minutes over his first three years. Once he figured it out as a senior, he played a lot.

So Elliot Williams leads the list for me. After that, maybe Pocius. Then maybe Dawkins (especially this year, probably in place of some of Thornton's minutes). But beyond that I think Coach K has gotten the right guys on the floor.
Agreeing with a bunch of this. The original EWill. He had obvious reasons to leave, but I would have loved to have seen him in a second year at Duke.
Taking away the maybes, I would have loved to have seen Marty and Andre given the floor more.
To answer the naysayers, I would have liked to have seen both Olek and Alex given a shot. Maybe they would have fallen flat, maybe not.
Beyond that? Nobody left to pick but Patrick Davidson. He wouldn't have even left bodies on the floor on his way to a championship if he were given the minutes, he would have eaten them whole on his way down the court. Not even Karl Hess would have blown his whistle; he may not be a good ref, but he's not dumb.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
04-19-2014, 06:44 AM
Not on my list, but don't you HAVE to include MP3? We all know on this board that if coach had only allowed him to spread his wings this year at 35 mins per game, he would have led Duke to an undefeated season, led the nation in scoring, and piloted the team's charter flights.

MCFinARL
04-19-2014, 07:27 AM
Eric Boateng (sp?)
Jamal Boykin
Olek Czyz (are you not entertained?!)

I loved Jamal Boykin, who was one of the most enthusiastic players ever, and would certainly have loved to see more of him on the court for that reason, though I'm not sure it would necessarily have improved the team's play.

My (very unscientific) recollection of Eric Boateng is that he always looked a little lost when he got on the court. Of course, that could be a vicious circle; more time=less lost.

johnb
04-19-2014, 07:31 AM
I can think of a bunch of guys I wish we'd seen none of--at least their freshman years. By redshirting some our guys who had minimal freshman impact, they might have gotten an extra year of burn, and a graduate degree.

jimsumner
04-19-2014, 08:37 AM
RE: Marty Pocius

A brief list of guys who played ahead of Pocius at the 2/3.

J.J. Redick
Sean Dockery (senior, when MP was a frosh)
DeMarcus Nelson
Jon Scheyer
Gerald Henderson
Nolan Smith

Which one of these guys would one want to sit in order for Pocius to have played more?

Duke lost Redick, Dockery and Lee Melchionni after 2006, Pocius' freshman season. He had every chance to win a starting spot in 2007 but Scheyer and Henderson simply beat him out. It's a meritocracy and Pocius simply wasn't as good as his competition.

Billy Dat
04-19-2014, 08:55 AM
It's hard to pinpoint how to accomplish it, but I wish the staff could have cracked the code on how to unleash "Frequent Flier Miles" more effectively. He is an NBA rim protector, maybe there was a way to go really big with he, Mason and Kelly that we never quite figured out because he was, seemingly unable to execute the strategy and avoid foul trouble.

MCFinARL
04-19-2014, 09:05 AM
It's hard to pinpoint how to accomplish it, but I wish the staff could have cracked the code on how to unleash "Frequent Flier Miles" more effectively. He is an NBA rim protector, maybe there was a way to go really big with he, Mason and Kelly that we never quite figured out because he was, seemingly unable to execute the strategy and avoid foul trouble.

Yes--seeing Miles develop into an effective NBA player and remembering frequent claims that Miles really tore it up in practice, it is too bad that he didn't have a bigger impact in college. As always, hard to know how much was the coaching plan and how much was Miles himself.

MarkD83
04-19-2014, 09:15 AM
Kyrie

I am assuming this is because of his injury rather than leaving for the NBA. If it is due to leaving for the NBA then we can add...

Elton Brand - 2 yr
Corey Maggette - 1 yr
William Avery - 2 yr
Jason Williams - 3 yr
Mike Dunleavy - 3 yr
Carlos Boozer - 3 yr
Luol Deng - 1 yr
Shavlik Randolph - 3 yr
Josh McRoberts - 2 yrs
Gerald Henderson - 3 yrs
Kyrie Irving - 1/3 yr
Austin Rivers - 1 yr
Jabari Parker - 1 yr
Rodney Hood - 1 yr

There was another reason for putting together this list. Since 1999, 14 players have gone to the NBA before using their eligibility (please check if I missed someone). Which is ~ 1 player per year. If you recruit the top players losing ~ 1 per year to the NBA should be expected. Some years more than 1 player left early : 1999, 2002 (I believe) and this year.

And now for my "lost boys". The players in bold won a National Championship, made it to the final four or won an ACC Championship (Josh 2006, Gerald 2009). So my regrets are for the last four players. I wish they had stayed around to win a championship.

MarkD83
04-19-2014, 10:37 AM
After thinking about my post I did want to add something to show how spoiled we have been as Duke BBall fans.

Duke bball has been able to hoist the following banners since 1999.

ACC Championships :1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2009, 2010, 2011
Final 4: 1999, 2001, 2004, 2010
NCAA championship: 2001, 2010

So Duke has done very well even when players leave early to go to the NBA. The issue is adjusting to stars leaving after 1 year.

ChicagoCrazy84
04-19-2014, 11:18 AM
I'll give you guys a name that has more than likely been long forgotten by us Duke fans...

Andre Sweet.

I was so pumped when that guy came in (same year as Duhon). He came out of Harlem, I really thought he would give us an element similar to that of Corey Maggette after he left for the NBA. An energy pump off the bench and an edge. He only played 7 games his freshman year and got homesick so transferred back north to Seton Hall. Who knows if he would've stuck around if he played more, but it would've more than likely helped his homesickness.

Saratoga2
04-19-2014, 11:31 AM
RE: Marty Pocius

A brief list of guys who played ahead of Pocius at the 2/3.

J.J. Redick
Sean Dockery (senior, when MP was a frosh)
DeMarcus Nelson
Jon Scheyer
Gerald Henderson
Nolan Smith

Which one of these guys would one want to sit in order for Pocius to have played more?

Duke lost Redick, Dockery and Lee Melchionni after 2006, Pocius' freshman season. He had every chance to win a starting spot in 2007 but Scheyer and Henderson simply beat him out. It's a meritocracy and Pocius simply wasn't as good as his competition.

This year we expanded the lineup for a few games with better results. Perhaps a little less of the top players and a little more of the good but not top would help not hurt team performance. This year it was Matt, Marshall and Semi who seemed to have something to offer but often player either no minutes or sparse minutes. Why do we recruit some very good players and let them sit totally? Seems to me that a better balance would be to give them a little more PT.

jimsumner
04-19-2014, 12:09 PM
This year we expanded the lineup for a few games with better results. Perhaps a little less of the top players and a little more of the good but not top would help not hurt team performance. This year it was Matt, Marshall and Semi who seemed to have something to offer but often player either no minutes or sparse minutes. Why do we recruit some very good players and let them sit totally? Seems to me that a better balance would be to give them a little more PT.

A source of much legitimate discussion. And I do question the substitution rotation myself on occasion, sometimes occasions.

But K seems comfortable with a 7-8 man rotation and I suspect we won't see a lot of substantive changes at this point, a few hockey-style-substitution games this season, notwithstanding.

Let me throw in another bit of Pocius what-ifs. Recall that he missed most of one season with an ankle injury and qualified for a medical redshirt. That means he would have been eligible for a fifth year in 2010. Dawkins might have stayed in high school and Pocius would have been the only guard off the bench, behind Scheyer and Smith. He could have been the guy getting real PT off the bench, the guy slamming against Georgia Tech, the guy with nets hung around his neck. The opportunity was right there and he didn't grab it.

He had a chance to make big money going back home to play pro ball and we probably shouldn't read anything more into it than that. But I'll always wonder what might have been.

MCFinARL
04-19-2014, 12:41 PM
A source of much legitimate discussion. And I do question the substitution rotation myself on occasion, sometimes occasions.

But K seems comfortable with a 7-8 man rotation and I suspect we won't see a lot of substantive changes at this point, a few hockey-style-substitution games this season, notwithstanding.

Let me throw in another bit of Pocius what-ifs. Recall that he missed most of one season with an ankle injury and qualified for a medical redshirt. That means he would have been eligible for a fifth year in 2010. Dawkins might have stayed in high school and Pocius would have been the only guard off the bench, behind Scheyer and Smith. He could have been the guy getting real PT off the bench, the guy slamming against Georgia Tech, the guy with nets hung around his neck. The opportunity was right there and he didn't grab it.

He had a chance to make big money going back home to play pro ball and we probably shouldn't read anything more into it than that. But I'll always wonder what might have been.

A potentially painful train of thought, as things might have turned out very differently for Dawkins as well as for Pocius.

Edouble
04-19-2014, 01:19 PM
I'll give you guys a name that has more than likely been long forgotten by us Duke fans...

Andre Sweet.

I was so pumped when that guy came in (same year as Duhon). He came out of Harlem, I really thought he would give us an element similar to that of Corey Maggette after he left for the NBA. An energy pump off the bench and an edge. He only played 7 games his freshman year and got homesick so transferred back north to Seton Hall. Who knows if he would've stuck around if he played more, but it would've more than likely helped his homesickness.

If Sweet only played in seven games his freshman year, it is because he was on academic suspension for the spring semester. I recall that he left moreso for that reason than for being homesick.

jimsumner
04-19-2014, 01:58 PM
A potentially painful train of thought, as things might have turned out very differently for Dawkins as well as for Pocius.

I intentionally didn't go there.

brlftz
04-19-2014, 07:23 PM
Christian Ast
Joey Beard

jimsumner
04-19-2014, 08:45 PM
Christian Ast
Joey Beard

Ah, Joey Beard. A consensus top-10 recruit. Played sparingly as a freshman in 1994, on a team that went to the title game.

But Duke lost both starting forwards, Grant Hill and Tony Lang and the expectation was that Beard would start at the 4 the following season. His competition was Tony Moore.

Senior Cherokee Parks would be the starting center. Duke decided to redshirt Parks' classmate Eric Meek, so that Meek would have a clear starting shot in 1996.

Greg Newton would be the back-up 5.

Seemed like a solid post rotation.

Then things began to fall apart. Beard developed mono. Duke got brutalized on the boards in one of their exhibition games. The decision was made to play Meek. Beard decided he didn't want to wait to get healthy and compete for PC and bailed for Boston University.

So, yes, things could very easily have turned out differently for Beard and Duke.

But here's the thing. Beard was a good player at BU, scoring in double figures. But he wasn't a star, not the way one would think a player with his prep reputation would be at a program at BU's level. After all he was a priority target for Duke, Carolina, Virginia, Kentucky. Shouldn't he have dominated at BU?

I know Duke thought he had put on some unneeded weight between high school and his freshman season, so there's that. His toughness has also been questioned. So, it's entirely possible he just wasn't that good to begin with.

Newton_14
04-19-2014, 09:06 PM
RE: Marty Pocius

A brief list of guys who played ahead of Pocius at the 2/3.

J.J. Redick
Sean Dockery (senior, when MP was a frosh)
DeMarcus Nelson
Jon Scheyer
Gerald Henderson
Nolan Smith

Which one of these guys would one want to sit in order for Pocius to have played more?

Duke lost Redick, Dockery and Lee Melchionni after 2006, Pocius' freshman season. He had every chance to win a starting spot in 2007 but Scheyer and Henderson simply beat him out. It's a meritocracy and Pocius simply wasn't as good as his competition.

I fully agree with the facts and logic in your post Jim. No doubt. Marty could just never quite get over the hump of the competition. The weird thing for me though, was a few short years later, watching that very same kid, start at PG for his International Team in a game against the best players the USA team could put on the floor, aquit himself very well, and going down the stretch his team had a chance at victory. That was one of the most befuddling days ever for me, to be honest. One of those things I will never be able to reconcile.

And again, not mocking or being sarcastic. I honestly agree with every word you typed there. Those kids listed beat Marty out fair and square in each of the seasons.

johnb
04-19-2014, 09:35 PM
RE: Marty Pocius

A brief list of guys who played ahead of Pocius at the 2/3.

J.J. Redick
Sean Dockery (senior, when MP was a frosh)
DeMarcus Nelson
Jon Scheyer
Gerald Henderson
Nolan Smith

Which one of these guys would one want to sit in order for Pocius to have played more?

Duke lost Redick, Dockery and Lee Melchionni after 2006, Pocius' freshman season. He had every chance to win a starting spot in 2007 but Scheyer and Henderson simply beat him out. It's a meritocracy and Pocius simply wasn't as good as his competition.

Even a roster of the competition that one player faced for PT over the span of a couple of years reminds me how many good players Duke has had.

Kedsy
04-19-2014, 10:13 PM
His competition was Tony Moore.

Tony Moore is another guy who could make this "lost boy" list. Reportedly a great player in practice, and several times seemed on the verge of breaking into the starting lineup (or at least the rotation) when some weird off-court incident set him back. I've often wondered how good he could have been.

tbyers11
04-19-2014, 10:40 PM
Tony Moore is another guy who could make this "lost boy" list. Reportedly a great player in practice, and several times seemed on the verge of breaking into the starting lineup (or at least the rotation) when some weird off-court incident set him back. I've often wondered how good he could have been.

If by weird off-court incident you meant being suspended for poor grades then I agree with you. He was getting some good minutes his senior year and definitely could have helped that team at the end of the season when Stan Brunson was getting serious minutes.

jimsumner
04-20-2014, 10:11 AM
Tony Moore is another guy who could make this "lost boy" list. Reportedly a great player in practice, and several times seemed on the verge of breaking into the starting lineup (or at least the rotation) when some weird off-court incident set him back. I've often wondered how good he could have been.

Tony Moore. Talk about irony. He stays eligible for three seasons as a back-up. He gets a starting spot as a senior and flunks out.

He was an enigma. 6-8, 230, could jump out of the gym, strong as a horse. But his skill-set was limited and I'm not sure he ever really had a feel for the game.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

GGLC
04-20-2014, 10:56 AM
Tony Moore was in my class year down in what were then "the new dorms" in Lancaster and Stratford, as was Chris Collins. Both were very nice, but in the few times I interacted with him, Moore never struck me as...the sharpest guy.

(Then again, I flunked out of Duke myself around the same time he did, so glass houses.)

Wander
04-20-2014, 11:20 AM
RE: Marty Pocius

A brief list of guys who played ahead of Pocius at the 2/3.

J.J. Redick
Sean Dockery (senior, when MP was a frosh)
DeMarcus Nelson
Jon Scheyer
Gerald Henderson
Nolan Smith

Which one of these guys would one want to sit in order for Pocius to have played more?

Duke lost Redick, Dockery and Lee Melchionni after 2006, Pocius' freshman season. He had every chance to win a starting spot in 2007 but Scheyer and Henderson simply beat him out. It's a meritocracy and Pocius simply wasn't as good as his competition.

Pocius is the only example of the guys listed in this thread that I do think should have received more PT. Not in 2006, so drop Redick and Dockey off the list, but in 2007. Note that he played well in the game when he was forced to be a major contributor, the loss to NC State when Henderson was suspended. As for where the minutes would have come from - I know this is an example of "hindsight is 20/20," but ideally he would not have taken away minutes not from Henderson or Scheyer, but from Paulus, and the Scheyer at PG experiment would have started early (maybe Paulus and Pocius play 25 and 15 instead of 33 and 7, or something like that). Admittedly this was in no way the obvious solution at the time.

jimsumner
04-20-2014, 11:34 AM
Pocius is the only example of the guys listed in this thread that I do think should have received more PT. Not in 2006, so drop Redick and Dockey off the list, but in 2007. Note that he played well in the game when he was forced to be a major contributor, the loss to NC State when Henderson was suspended. As for where the minutes would have come from - I know this is an example of "hindsight is 20/20," but ideally he would not have taken away minutes not from Henderson or Scheyer, but from Paulus, and the Scheyer at PG experiment would have started early (maybe Paulus and Pocius play 25 and 15 instead of 33 and 7, or something like that). Admittedly this was in no way the obvious solution at the time.

I'm not sure Scheyer could have handled point as a freshman in 2007. Paulus likely was Duke's only option. Pocius was competing against Scheyer, Henderson and Nelson at the 2/3.

As a relevant aside, Pocius is averaging 9.3 ppg in the Euro leagues this season. Solid but not close to star level.

Kedsy
04-20-2014, 11:45 AM
If by weird off-court incident you meant being suspended for poor grades then I agree with you.

That was the last time. His junior year, the way I heard it, he'd earned his way into the rotation and then had to miss time because he was bitten by a jellyfish (and by the time he returned, the opportunity had passed). I think there was another odd thing, too, earlier than that, but I don't remember what it was.

Kedsy
04-20-2014, 12:04 PM
Pocius is the only example of the guys listed in this thread that I do think should have received more PT. Not in 2006, so drop Redick and Dockey off the list, but in 2007. Note that he played well in the game when he was forced to be a major contributor, the loss to NC State when Henderson was suspended. As for where the minutes would have come from - I know this is an example of "hindsight is 20/20," but ideally he would not have taken away minutes not from Henderson or Scheyer, but from Paulus, and the Scheyer at PG experiment would have started early (maybe Paulus and Pocius play 25 and 15 instead of 33 and 7, or something like that). Admittedly this was in no way the obvious solution at the time.

I don't want to reignite the Paulus debate, nor am in any way a Paulus apologist, but Greg Paulus made the All-America freshman 2nd team in 2005-06 (the season before 2007) and was third-team All ACC in 2007-08 (the season after). It's true he was bothered by injury in 2006-07, but he still managed almost 12 ppg and almost 4 apg, while shooting 45% from three-point range. Marty Pocius's per minute and tempo free production suggest he wouldn't have done close to that well, but even giving him the benefit of the doubt and saying he might have scored a bit more if given Paulus's minutes, it's unlikely he would have scored too much more and he would almost certainly have assisted less and shot worse. Greg was a somewhat weak defensive player, but Marty was sort of famous for bad D as well. It's hard for me to see Pocius deserving any of Paulus's minutes.

Wander
04-20-2014, 12:17 PM
I don't want to reignite the Paulus debate, nor am in any way a Paulus apologist, but Greg Paulus made the All-America freshman 2nd team in 2005-06 (the season before 2007) and was third-team All ACC in 2007-08 (the season after). It's true he was bothered by injury in 2006-07, but he still managed almost 12 ppg and almost 4 apg, while shooting 45% from three-point range. Marty Pocius's per minute and tempo free production suggest he wouldn't have done close to that well, but even giving him the benefit of the doubt and saying he might have scored a bit more if given Paulus's minutes, it's unlikely he would have scored too much more and he would almost certainly have assisted less and shot worse. Greg was a somewhat weak defensive player, but Marty was sort of famous for bad D as well. It's hard for me to see Pocius deserving any of Paulus's minutes.

I'll also avoid reigniting the Paulus debate, but I'm not suggesting that we plugged Pocius into Paulus' spot. I'm suggesting Scheyer at PG, and Henderson and Pocius at the wings - and again, not as our main lineup, just ~10 min a game. So even though Pocius would have assisted less than Paulus, this would be somewhat balanced out presumably by Scheyer's assist numbers going up, and in the most optimistic scenario, entirely balanced out or better by the team's turnover numbers going down. Maybe jimsumner is right and Scheyer was not ready for the PG attempt as a freshman, but I'm not convinced either way, and in hindsight I would have liked to see that experiment tried earlier (I would definitely not have thought to suggest this at the time).