Next jersey in the rafters?

[lotusland]

Seems like not that long ago we were full of angst about guys getting snubbed vs. the danger that the rafters would get too crowded and we would run out of available numbers. Now we're recycling retired numbers and I'm wondering how long before Duke retires anther jersey. It's tough when guys like Kyle, Nolan, Jon and Mason - all guys who could have left early but played 4-years and won a championship -weren't quite good enough. On the other hand, the guys who would have been candidates in the past aren't staying long enough to have a significant impact anymore. It's hard to imagine anyone on next year's team getting their jersey retired. Winslow is described as a very Battier like player who might fit the mold except he's already being discussed a potential OAD player. On the other hand, guys who produce over 4-years like Quinn and Amile (probably) are in danger of getting bumped out of the starting lineup as upper classmen by next years OAD players and it's hard to imagine either having their jersey retired regardless of what happens for the remainder of their Duke careers. A raw talent like Semi might have been a candidate but now it looks like he could be going into his Junior year without significant PT. Sheed is the best bet now but he's got a lot of work to do and he'll have to distinguish himself among OAD star players.

Like Sheed, a player who makes the rafters in the OAD era will have to be either a tweener who doesn't have NBA size for his position or a shooter who lacks NBA quickness (JJ). I wonder if a guy like Kennard could come in and get PT from the start yet possible stay 4-years? Grayson??? It's going to be rare for a 3-4 year guy to make a bigger impact on a given team than the 4 mentioned above IMO.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Really interesting question. I think the criteria for a retired jersey haven't changed:

-Graduate
-Receive at least one "Player of the Year", whether it be "National" or "Defensive"

In order for this to happen, I think you need a player to have the following resume:
1) Be in the rotation for all 4 years (doable. See Sulaimon)
2) Be relevant all 4 years (really, really tough. Singler may be the last player to be this type of player)
3) Be dominant at least 2 years (insanely tough. Again, Singler is the last player to fill this criteria)

IMO, if a player is starting his freshman year, it's a massive signal that he's probably going to leave early. If a player is dominant his junior year, why stay another year? I believe that, from an NBA perspective, Singler made the wrong move by coming back.

In order to get your jersey retired, you need to be really, really fundamentally sound but not that athletic. If you are fundamentally sound and athletic, you're going to the NBA. If you're athletic and not fundamentally sound, you're going to the NBA. If you're fundamentally sound and not athletic, the NBA probably doesn't want you until you're a senior (McBuckets, Redick, Nolan Smith).

I'd be very surprised to see a Duke jersey be retired in the next decade, especially with the new recruiting strategy that Coach K has implemented.

[markbdevil]

I don't think another jersey number will be retired, unless it's #12 for Singler. Still don't understand why his number is not hanging from the rafters.

[GGLC]

Should be Kyle and Nolan.

[CDu]

Really interesting question. I think the criteria for a retired jersey haven't changed:

-Graduate
-Receive at least one "Player of the Year", whether it be "National" or "Defensive"

It's been said before, but only the first is an actual hard criterion. Mullins and Gminski didn't win any national or defensive player of the year honors (they did get ACC player of the year) and Hurley didn't win any type of player of the year honor. The only requirement is that you graduate. From there, it gets a bit hazy, but player of the year honors (or being first in team history in a major stat) do go a long way. Gminski was the leading scorer, rebounder, and shot blocker when he finished at Duke. Hurley is still the leading assist man (nationally, not just at Duke). Mullins was the third-leading scorer (just 2 behind Groat and 100 behind Heyman).


In order for this to happen, I think you need a player to have the following resume:
1) Be in the rotation for all 4 years (doable. See Sulaimon)
2) Be relevant all 4 years (really, really tough. Singler may be the last player to be this type of player)
3) Be dominant at least 2 years (insanely tough. Again, Singler is the last player to fill this criteria)

IMO, if a player is starting his freshman year, it's a massive signal that he's probably going to leave early. If a player is dominant his junior year, why stay another year? I believe that, from an NBA perspective, Singler made the wrong move by coming back.

In order to get your jersey retired, you need to be really, really fundamentally sound but not that athletic. If you are fundamentally sound and athletic, you're going to the NBA. If you're athletic and not fundamentally sound, you're going to the NBA. If you're fundamentally sound and not athletic, the NBA probably doesn't want you until you're a senior (McBuckets, Redick, Nolan Smith).

I'd be very surprised to see a Duke jersey be retired in the next decade, especially with the new recruiting strategy that Coach K has implemented.

I agree. I think it is going to be very tough for any player to get their jersey retired in the near future. The guys most likely to perform well enough to get their jerseys retired are not likely to stick around long enough to earn the honor. The best bet might be a player who has already graduated (like Singler). Sulaimon could get in the discussion with a strong (All-ACC) junior year and leading a championship run and earning Player of the Year honor as a senior. But I wouldn't call it likely. And given that Singler's jersey isn't up there, Sulaimon would almost HAVE to win a major player of the year honor to get there.

But I think that the "tweener" guys (either at guard, wing, or forward) are the most likely candidates.

Basically, as long as Singler (who is 4th on the scoring list, 7th in rebounds, has a championship, has 3 All-ACC honors, and has a Final Four MOP) doesn't have his jersey retired, the bar is set awfully high for everyone else.

[Li_Duke]

I think a bunch of guys recently had a good chance to have their jersey retired.

If Kyle's shot hadn't gone MIA his senior year; Kyrie hadn't gotten injured, and we won it all again in 2011, I think we would have seen both Kyle and Nolan have their jersey retired.

If Ryan hadn't gotten injured, Mason might have continued his stellar early season play and been player of the year. If they then went on to win it all, I think he could have gotten his jersey retired.

We're less likely to see a jersey retirement now than before as the Grant Hill and Jabari Parker types don't stick around 4 years anymore. However, the Bobby Hurley, Shane Battier, and JJ Redick types still do stay 4 years. Much has to go their way over the course of their careers for them to get it.

Most likely candidates in the next 4 years:
Rasheed has a great chance if he has a Nolan Smith like leap in his junior and senior year and he wins a championship/player of year award.
Tyus is a bit undersized for the NBA. He could stick around 3 years and pull a Jason (Jay) Williams.
Justise supposedly is a game-changer on defense -- those don't tend to leave early (Kidd-Gilchrist aside). I could see him pulling a Shane Battier.

I think barring a surprise, the odds are against Quinn, Amile, Marshall, Matt, Semi, or Grayson. Kennard could be the second coming of JJ Redick, but I have to see it before I can believe it.

[Troublemaker]

Tyus is a bit undersized for the NBA. He could stick around 3 years and pull a Jason (Jay) Williams.


That's what I was gonna suggest. If Tyus does JWill's 3 Year Plan, he's our guy for next retirement, I think.

[flyingdutchdevil]

It's been said before, but only the first is an actual hard criterion. Mullins and Gminski didn't win any national or defensive player of the year honors (they did get ACC player of the year) and Hurley didn't win any type of player of the year honor. The only requirement is that you graduate. From there, it gets a bit hazy, but player of the year honors (or being first in team history in a major stat) do go a long way. Gminski was the leading scorer, rebounder, and shot blocker when he finished at Duke. Hurley is still the leading assist man (nationally, not just at Duke). Mullins was the third-leading scorer (just 2 behind Groat and 100 behind Heyman).

It may not be a hard criterion, but I think it holds water. I was at both games in Cameron in 2006-2007 where Redick and Shelden had their jerseys retired. Coach K specifically said that there were two criteria: graduate and NPOY. Now, Coach K may have said that to increase the importance/difficulty of such an event, but he did say it.

[sagegrouse]

It's been said before, but only the first is an actual hard criterion. Mullins and Gminski didn't win any national or defensive player of the year honors (they did get ACC player of the year) and Hurley didn't win any type of player of the year honor. The only requirement is that you graduate. From there, it gets a bit hazy, but player of the year honors (or being first in team history in a major stat) do go a long way. Gminski was the leading scorer, rebounder, and shot blocker when he finished at Duke. Hurley is still the leading assist man (nationally, not just at Duke). Mullins was the third-leading scorer (just 2 behind Groat and 100 behind Heyman).



.

K also said that accomplishments beyond Duke make a difference. Mullins, whose Duke credentials are a shade less outstanding than Verga's, had some other interesting accomplishments:

Gold medal, 1964 Olympics

NBA championship, 1975 Warriors

Three NBA All-Star games

Successful college coach and AD at Charlotte

Duke Assistant AD (IIRC)

And,.......... a guy that everybody likes

[flyingdutchdevil]

K also said that accomplishments beyond Duke make a difference. Mullins, whose Duke credentials are a shade less outstanding than Verga's, had some other interesting accomplishments:

Gold medal, 1964 Olympics

NBA championship, 1975 Warriors

Three NBA All-Star games

Successful college coach and AD at Charlotte

Duke Assistant AD (IIRC)

And,.......... a guy that everybody likes

I'd also like to think that accomplishments and contributions at Duke make a difference. Coach K said that no player has interacted with the student body like Nolan Smith. To me, this is so important. We see time and time again Duke athletes (not just basketball but other sports) be insulated into their own groups/cliques. Nolan was so different in that regard. He'd have conversations with students that he never knew in the middle of the quad.

Singler is the more accomplished player, but Nolan is the better ambassador for Duke.

[GGLC]

I'd also like to think that accomplishments and contributions at Duke make a difference. Coach K said that no player has interacted with the student body like Nolan Smith. To me, this is so important. We see time and time again Duke athletes (not just basketball but other sports) be insulated into their own groups/cliques. Nolan was so different in that regard. He'd have conversations with students that he never knew in the middle of the quad.

Singler is the more accomplished player, but Nolan is the better ambassador for Duke.

Yup. From everything I've heard, Nolan was flat out one of the best PEOPLE to play basketball at Duke in recent memory. I simply love him. It's a shame that his NBA career didn't work out, and I really wish he was remembered better in Portland (where most Trailblazer fans* regard him as a terrible player and a huge draft mistake). I have to believe that given a different opportunity, Nolan could have flourished as at least an NBA rotation player. It's the vagaries of circumstance.

*I am a Blazer fan, and I obviously don't feel that way. Blazer fans in general have been so snakebitten in the draft (see Bowie, Sam and Oden, Greg -- every time Kevin Durant earns even greater accolades it's like a dagger in Blazer fandom hearts) that I don't begrudge them their bitterness, even if I feel like it's misplaced in Nolan's case.

[Duvall]

It may not be a hard criterion, but I think it holds water. I was at both games in Cameron in 2006-2007 where Redick and Shelden had their jerseys retired. Coach K specifically said that there were two criteria: graduate and NPOY. Now, Coach K may have said that to increase the importance/difficulty of such an event, but he did say it.

But of course that can't be the rule, because Shelden was never national player of the year. Now Brodhead did mention Shelden's National Defensive Player of the Year awards at his jersey retirement, but NDPOY alone just isn't enough to justify retirement.

Can we assume that graduation + NPOY or graduation + consensus 1st-team All-America + NDPOY will get a jersey retired? Probably, but it's not an actual rule, and never has been.

[flyingdutchdevil]

But of course that can't be the rule, because Shelden was never national player of the year. Now Brodhead did mention Shelden's National Defensive Player of the Year awards at his jersey retirement, but NDPOY alone just isn't enough to justify retirement.

Can we assume that graduation + NPOY or graduation + consensus 1st-team All-America + NDPOY will get a jersey retired? Probably, but it's not an actual rule, and never has been.

Please read my first post. I mentioned that POY can be national or defensive (or probably some other metric I missed).

I'm regurgitating what I heard Coach K say himself.

[CDu]

But of course that can't be the rule, because Shelden was never national player of the year. Now Brodhead did mention Shelden's National Defensive Player of the Year awards at his jersey retirement, but NDPOY alone just isn't enough to justify retirement.

Can we assume that graduation + NPOY or graduation + consensus 1st-team All-America + NDPOY will get a jersey retired? Probably, but it's not an actual rule, and never has been.

We could assume that, but even that criteria has been violated. Because Hurley, Gminski, and Mullins didn't meet either of those criteria (as none got NPoY or NDPoY).

Unless Coach K changed his criteria midway through his tenure (sometime after Mullins and Hurley got their numbers retired), which I guess is possible.

[Nosbleuatu]

For argument's sake, what if Jahlil Okafor pulls a Melo and leads Duke to a championship next year before heading off to the NBA? If he were to collect NPOY along the way and eventually finish up his degree, that would check a lot of boxes on the list. I'm not sure how I'd feel about a 1-year jersey in the rafters though....

[Dev11]

But of course that can't be the rule, because Shelden was never national player of the year. Now Brodhead did mention Shelden's National Defensive Player of the Year awards at his jersey retirement, but NDPOY alone just isn't enough to justify retirement.

Grant Hill won a NDPOY award, an ACC POY award, and was a first team All-American.

[CDu]

Grant Hill won a NDPOY award, an ACC POY award, and was a first team All-American.

And Grant Hill's jersey is retired...

The players who don't have either an NDPoY or an NPoY but do have their jerseys retired are Mullins, Gminski, and Hurley.

[lotusland]

For argument's sake, what if Jahlil Okafor pulls a Melo and leads Duke to a championship next year before heading off to the NBA? If he were to collect NPOY along the way and eventually finish up his degree, that would check a lot of boxes on the list. I'm not sure how I'd feel about a 1-year jersey in the rafters though....

There's a good chance that coach K won't be HC when/if Okafor finally graduates in that case although I'd be surprised if he doesn't still have significant influence over such things. I won't have any influence but I'd be opposed.

[Dev11]

And Grant Hill's jersey is retired...

The players who don't have either an NDPoY or an NPoY but do have their jerseys retired are Mullins, Gminski, and Hurley.

I suppose I should have added "therefore, NDPOY is sufficient."

I think I remember it like dutch, win a national award or claim a national record, and that should be enough. The rules got stricter as time went on.

[InSpades]

For argument's sake, what if Jahlil Okafor pulls a Melo and leads Duke to a championship next year before heading off to the NBA? If he were to collect NPOY along the way and eventually finish up his degree, that would check a lot of boxes on the list. I'm not sure how I'd feel about a 1-year jersey in the rafters though....

I doubt we will ever see a 1 and done player get his jersey retired. Again, Kyle Singler being sort of the "minimum requirement" makes it very difficult. I doubt any 1 and done player could contribute as much to Duke as Kyle did in his 4 years. We've had 2 amazing 1 and dones recently (Kyrie and Jabari) and I don't think either was close. Even if Kyrie hadn't gotten hurt I don't think he would have been close.

I'd much rather see a guy like Mason get his # retired (had he gone on to be NPotY, or a bit closer to that). Someone who contributed at a lesser level and then advanced his game to the point of being "rafter worthy".

I also think the NPotY requirement is silly though. Why should you be judged based on how other players perform? Say Doug McDermott declared for the NBA after his junior year... this suddenly makes Jabari more or less "rafter worthy"? That's silly. At the same time I don't think K would hold such a thing against a player. I'm sure K has his standards and they're not so set in stone.

[lotusland]

And Grant Hill's jersey is retired...

The players who don't have either an NDPoY or an NPoY but do have their jerseys retired are Mullins, Gminski, and Hurley.

Hurley was first team AA in 1993. He is also the NCAA ALL TIME leader in assists. Any criteria that would leave off Hurley is just wrong.

[Duvall]

I suppose I should have added "therefore, NDPOY is sufficient."

I think I remember it like dutch, win a national award or claim a national record, and that should be enough. The rules got stricter as time went on.

But I don't think NDPOY by itself *would* be enough. Look at the last three players to win the NABC National Defensive Player of the Year Award (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NABC_Defensive_Player_of_the_Year) - Victor Oladipo, Jeff Withey and Aaron Craft. Good players, but jersey retirement good? If Duke had another good-but-not-great player win a NDPOY award, I don't think that should or would be enough for retirement, regardless of what Krzyewski and Brodhead have said.

[Dev11]

But I don't think NDPOY by itself *would* be enough. Look at the last three players to win the NABC National Defensive Player of the Year Award (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NABC_Defensive_Player_of_the_Year) - Victor Oladipo, Jeff Withey and Aaron Craft. Good players, but jersey retirement good? If Duke had another good-but-not-great player win a NDPOY award, I don't think that should or would be enough for retirement, regardless of what Krzyewski and Brodhead have said.

Well, both Shelden and Grant were first team All-Americans. If NDPOY was all they needed, I think we would have a few more retired jerseys, including Tommy Amaker and Steve Wojciechowski.

[Dukehky]

The requirements per Coach K at Duke Basketball camp Circa 2003 is graduation and a significant national award/recognition. NDPOY is not enough as the record suggests because Wojo and Billy King's jerseys aren't retired. I think a two time winning of that award would do it. Final Four MOP is not one of those requirements because it isn't a season long thing. Hurley is the all time assist leader, that's a major national recognition. I cannot speak to the requirements in the pre-K era.

I think Nolan is more deserving than Kyle of having his jersey in the rafters because he had the best season of the two in 2011 than Kyle ever had.

I don't think any Duke player will ever have their jersey retired again. I don't think any player we have that wins a NPOY will stay long enough to graduate. Does the 2 and done rule potentially change that, yes. But as we are today, I do not foresee another Duke player getting his jersey in the rafters.

[Duvall]

Well, both Shelden and Grant were first team All-Americans. If NDPOY was all they needed, I think we would have a few more retired jerseys, including Tommy Amaker and Steve Wojciechowski.

Right. First-team All-America is not enough (see Nolan Smith) and NDPOY is not enough (see Amaker, Wojciechowski, King). Start combining them along with other factors, as Hill and Shelden did, and you have a jersey retirement case. But it's a matter of judgment - there are no hard and fast rules like they have at UNC.

[Dukehky]

Right. First-team All-America is not enough (see Nolan Smith) and NDPOY is not enough (see Amaker, Wojciechowski, King). Start combining them along with other factors, as Hill and Shelden did, and you have a jersey retirement case. But it's a matter of judgment - there are no hard and fast rules like they have at UNC.

Absolutely correct. The significant "national recognition" requirement gives K some wiggle room to add people he finds deserving if they weren't able to win a NPOY award that they maybe had earned, like Hill. Personally I don't think any of the four people you listed that don't have their jerseys retired should have them retired. Wojo is a legend, but he is not on the same level as the guys up there. Nolan is tougher, but there are lots of really good Duke players who aren't up there, but his senior season was something special.

[uh_no]

whenever I see these threads, I think of the dean dome....and you look up in the rafters and there's like 50 something jerseys....

we have standards at duke that are phenomenally high, so high that even some very good players and people don't meet them. Do we want to be like UNC with a billion jerseys up there for people nobody has ever heard of? not that i'm suggesting nobody has ever heard of kyle or nolan, or wojo....but the standard is simply very very high.....

we can start with: how many all americans at duke didn't get retired? 23.....if you can make a case for kyle or nolan based on AA, what about the other 21 guys? should we string them all up? They were all very very good players....good enough to be among the best in the nation. Being an all american quality player should be something EVERY duke basketball player should strive for. Getting retired is a step beyond that.

Edit: so apparently UNC only has EIGHT retired numbers....and another 50 "honored" numbers or some such.....so we put them in the hall of fame, UNC hangs their number in the rafters.....

[flyingdutchdevil]

whenever I see these threads, I think of the dean dome....and you look up in the rafters and there's like 50 something jerseys....

we have standards at duke that are phenomenally high, so high that even some very good players and people don't meet them. Do we want to be like UNC with a billion jerseys up there for people nobody has ever heard of? not that i'm suggesting nobody has ever heard of kyle or nolan, or wojo....but the standard is simply very very high.....

we can start with: how many all americans at duke didn't get retired? 23.....if you can make a case for kyle or nolan based on AA, what about the other 21 guys? should we string them all up? They were all very very good players....good enough to be among the best in the nation. Being an all american quality player should be something EVERY duke basketball player should strive for. Getting retired is a step beyond that.

Edit: so apparently UNC only has EIGHT retired numbers....and another 50 "honored" numbers or some such.....so we put them in the hall of fame, UNC hangs their number in the rafters.....

I really like the idea of "Honored". Gives credit where credit is due without having to sacrifice a number. I give UNC props for that one.

[uh_no]

I really like the idea of "Honored". Gives credit where credit is due without having to sacrifice a number. I give UNC props for that one.

we have a hall of fame attached to cameron....there simply isn't space to string up 30-40 more jersey numbers.....

[flyingdutchdevil]

we have a hall of fame attached to cameron....there simply isn't space to string up 30-40 more jersey numbers.....

Not true. There is space. It just won't look nice. And it won't effectively highlight the champ banners and retired jerseys.

Small sacrifice you make for keeping a small arena.

[Olympic Fan]

Why is this so hard to understand? The ONLY fixed-in-stone criteria for jersey retirement is graduation.

NPOY?

That certainly plays a big role -- but Elton Brand was the consensus NPOY and his jersey is not up there ... he didn't graduate. Every Duke NPOY with a degree is in the rafters. (The Brand case should tell you that Okafor is not going to get his jersey retired for one year's work -- no matter how good).

NDPOY?

It's a nice addition, but it's not enough in itself. Amaker, Billy King and Wojo were national defensive players of the year -- and they were players K loved. But none has had his jersey retired. The NDPOY with retired jerseys (Grant Hill, Shane Battier and Shelden Williams) were also consensus first-team All-Americans.

Consensus first-team All-American

MOST of the guys in the rafters were consensus first-team All-Americans -- Groat, Heyman, Gminski, Dawkins, Ferry Laettner, Hurley, G Hill, Battier, Jason Williams, JJ Redick, Shelden Williams.

But one guy in the rafters was never a consensus first-team A-A: Jeff Mullins (he was close in 1964, but did not make it).

THREE consensus first-team guys have degrees and aren't in the rafters: Bob Verga, Chris Carrawell and Nolan Smith.

Of course, Elton Brand and now Jabari Parker count as first-team guys without degrees.

We can talk about criteria all we want, but it basically comes down to one thing -- Coach K's judgment. It's his call, pure and simple. And he can change the criteria at will. He's already done that once. Early in his career, he retired jerseys on Senior Night -- before graduation, but for guys who were on track to graduating. Later, he delayed the retirement until after they had graduated.

Coach K is responsible for retiring Heyman and Mullins jerseys. You see, Duke retired Duke Groat in 1952 (both in basketball and baseball). When Heyman was a senior, Vic Bubas wanted to retire his jersey too, but AD Eddie Cameron blocked it -- he thought Groat's No. 10 should be Duke's only retired jersey. He also blocked jersey retirements for the rest of the Bubas era. But Cameron was gone when Mike Gminski finished a great career in 1980 and AD Tom Butters approved his jersey retirement. But that created resentment -- G-man was great and deserved a retired jersey, but he wasn't as good as Heyman, who had been passed over.

When K started retiring jerseys of his own stars, starting with Dawkins, he became aware of the situation and talked to Bubas about worthy players from the 1960s. Coach K got Heyman's jersey retired in 1990 and Mullins' in 1994. Why they passed on Verga (and Marin) is between K and Bubas.

The only question I have is this -- if Elton Brand retired to Duke after his retirement and got a degree, would Duke hang his jersey in the rafters?

[brevity]

Seems like not that long ago we were full of angst about guys getting snubbed vs. the danger that the rafters would get too crowded and we would run out of available numbers. Now we're recycling retired numbers and I'm wondering how long before Duke retires anther jersey.

We're recycling retired numbers? News to me.

The retired jersey question, like any Hall of Fame question, depends on whether you like your all-time pantheon to be more inclusive or exclusive. One way to measure the level of greatness is by seeing who can't get in. Over time I've adapted from a more inclusive mentality to a more exclusive one. Not to write off any future upperclassman players, but if no other jerseys are retired in my lifetime, I'm okay with that. It's not like the pantheon needs to be updated regularly to keep it modern.

[InSpades]

I think Nolan is more deserving than Kyle of having his jersey in the rafters because he had the best season of the two in 2011 than Kyle ever had.


This is definitely true, but Kyle's 1st 2 years were so much better than Nolan's 1st 2 years. Kyle's freshman year especially stands out. We went from a team w/ 11 losses and an 8-8 conference record to a team w/ 6 losses and an 11-3 conference record thanks in large part to Kyle's contributions. Of course Demarcus really stepped up and Jon and Gerald contributed a lot as well. Kyle played center for that team. One of the most impressive years I've ever seen out of a freshman. Grossly out of position, he was a warrior inside. He will always be one of my favorite Duke players.

[lotusland]

We're recycling retired numbers? News to me.

The retired jersey question, like any Hall of Fame question, depends on whether you like your all-time pantheon to be more inclusive or exclusive. One way to measure the level of greatness is by seeing who can't get in. Over time I've adapted from a more inclusive mentality to a more exclusive one. Not to write off any future upperclassman players, but if no other jerseys are retired in my lifetime, I'm okay with that. It's not like the pantheon needs to be updated regularly to keep it modern.

Hmmm I thought someone had been given JWill's #22 but, upon further review, it appears Jabari was given approval to wear it but chose not to.

[GGLC]

When K started retiring jerseys of his own stars, starting with Dawkins, he became aware of the situation and talked to Bubas about worthy players from the 1960s. Coach K got Heyman's jersey retired in 1990 and Mullins' in 1994. Why they passed on Verga (and Marin) is between K and Bubas.


For those who were wondering (as I was), Bob Verga wore #11, and Jack Marin wore #24.

Edited to add:


Hmmm I thought someone had been given JWill's #22 but, upon further review, it appears Jabari was given approval to wear it but chose not to.

Wow, really? I've never heard that before, and I find it extremely surprising.

[sagegrouse]

But of course that can't be the rule, because Shelden was never national player of the year. Now Brodhead did mention Shelden's National Defensive Player of the Year awards at his jersey retirement, but NDPOY alone just isn't enough to justify retirement.

Can we assume that graduation + NPOY or graduation + consensus 1st-team All-America + NDPOY will get a jersey retired? Probably, but it's not an actual rule, and never has been.

Let's not make this problem too hard.

Question: How many consensus first-term All-Americans have NOT had their Duke jerseys retired?

Answer: Four -- Bob Verga (1967), Elton Brand (1999), Chris Carrawell (2000) and Nolan Smith (2011)

Question: How many players who received at least one NPOY of the year award have not had their jerseys retired?

Answer: One -- Elton Brand (consensus, 1999)

Question: How many players have had their jerseys retired without getting at least one NPOY award?

Answer: Three -- Mullins (1960s), Hurley (1990s) and Shelden (2000s)

Why and why not?

Why not Brand is easy -- two years and no degree.

Why not Carrawell is tougher, but almost all of Chris's honors were concentrated in a single season and he did little in hoops after Duke.

Why not Nolan? Three reasons -- (1) he wasn't really a NPOY candidate; (2) IMHO -- where the H is silent -- Nolan ain't getting retired without Singler getting his jersey in the rafters. While not a consensus A-A, Kyle was All-ACC four years in a row (twice first team); he is #4 in Duke scoring and #7 in rebounds, surrounded by players with retired jerseys. Kyle was the gritty leader of the four teams he played on. (3) Nolan isn't likely to add to his status at Duke with his pro record.

Why Mullins? A helluva player but with beaucoup honors after Duke -- all previously cited -- Olympic gold, NBA championship, NBA all-star x3, successful college coach. And, did I mention, he is one of the most personable guys that ever lived.

Why Shelden? How the heck could he be NPOY being in the same class with JJ? But he was twice DPOY. And when JJ's jersey was retired it would have been unthinkable not to retire Shel's.

Why not Verga? Twice consensus All-American (2nd and then 1st team). He got no honors for NPOY of the year, but then there was that Alcindor kid at UCLA his senior year who won every honor in the land. He had a decent career in the ABA -- 21 PPG for five years -- but played only briefly in the NBA.

Well, since I brought his name up, why not Singler? Well, he wasn't a consensus A-A, mostly because he lost his 3-pt. shot during much of his senior year.

Verga may eventually get his jersey retired, but his absence from Duke and lack of closeness to the program isn't helping. But, of course, if he hadn't been sick and a non-factor against Kentucky, Duke might have posted its first banner and Verga's jersey would be waving in the rafters.

Nolan may get his jersey retired on merit -- NC, 1st team A-A -- but if so, look for Singler's to go up at the same time.

Carrawell doesn't seem to be much in the conversation, since his contributions were limited to just one year (2000 -- he was 3rd team All ACC in 1999). A NC in 1999 would have added a lot to his credentials.

Final thought: Don't be surprised if Mike Dunleavy Jr. gets some mention: consensus 2nd team; graduated in three years; won a NC; has had a long and productive career in the NBA. (Of which, I will always remember Kenny Smith's immortal question: "Six-nine? Six-nine? How does Mike Dunleavy [Sr.] have a son that is six-nine? What is he, five-eleven?")

Sage
'Also, Carlos Boozer, but I don't think he's gonna get a degree. 'Los had some A-A mention, won a NC, an Olympic gold (and bronze), and has been a star in the NBA for 12 years'

[Li_Duke]

Final thought: Don't be surprised if Mike Dunleavy Jr. gets some mention: consensus 2nd team; graduated in three years; won a NC; has had a long and productive career in the NBA. (Of which, I will always remember Kenny Smith's immortal question: "Six-nine? Six-nine? How does Mike Dunleavy [Sr.] have a son that is six-nine? What is he, five-eleven?")

I don't remember him graduating in 3 years. I remember that he had a choice of returning to Duke and likely getting his jersey retired after his senior year or going pro, and he chose going pro.

[Dukehky]

Let's not make this problem too hard.

Question: How many consensus first-term All-Americans have NOT had their Duke jerseys retired?

Answer: Four -- Bob Verga (1967), Elton Brand (1999), Chris Carrawell (2000) and Nolan Smith (2011)

Question: How many players who received at least one NPOY of the year award have not had their jerseys retired?

Answer: One -- Elton Brand (consensus, 1999)

Question: How many players have had their jerseys retired without getting at least one NPOY award?

Answer: Three -- Mullins (1960s), Hurley (1990s) and Shelden (2000s)

Why and why not?

Why not Brand is easy -- two years and no degree.

Why not Carrawell is tougher, but almost all of Chris's honors were concentrated in a single season and he did little in hoops after Duke.

Why not Nolan? Three reasons -- (1) he wasn't really a NPOY candidate; (2) IMHO -- where the H is silent -- Nolan ain't getting retired without Singler getting his jersey in the rafters. While not a consensus A-A, Kyle was All-ACC four years in a row (twice first team); he is #4 in Duke scoring and #7 in rebounds, surrounded by players with retired jerseys. Kyle was the gritty leader of the four teams he played on. (3) Nolan isn't likely to add to his status at Duke with his pro record.

Why Mullins? A helluva player but with beaucoup honors after Duke -- all previously cited -- Olympic gold, NBA championship, NBA all-star x3, successful college coach. And, did I mention, he is one of the most personable guys that ever lived.

Why Shelden? How the heck could he be NPOY being in the same class with JJ? But he was twice DPOY. And when JJ's jersey was retired it would have been unthinkable not to retire Shel's.

Why not Verga? Twice consensus All-American (2nd and then 1st team). He got no honors for NPOY of the year, but then there was that Alcindor kid at UCLA his senior year who won every honor in the land. He had a decent career in the ABA -- 21 PPG for five years -- but played only briefly in the NBA.

Well, since I brought his name up, why not Singler? Well, he wasn't a consensus A-A, mostly because he lost his 3-pt. shot during much of his senior year.

Verga may eventually get his jersey retired, but his absence from Duke and lack of closeness to the program isn't helping. But, of course, if he hadn't been sick and a non-factor against Kentucky, Duke might have posted its first banner and Verga's jersey would be waving in the rafters.

Nolan may get his jersey retired on merit -- NC, 1st team A-A -- but if so, look for Singler's to go up at the same time.

Carrawell doesn't seem to be much in the conversation, since his contributions were limited to just one year (2000 -- he was 3rd team All ACC in 1999). A NC in 1999 would have added a lot to his credentials.

Final thought: Don't be surprised if Mike Dunleavy Jr. gets some mention: consensus 2nd team; graduated in three years; won a NC; has had a long and productive career in the NBA. (Of which, I will always remember Kenny Smith's immortal question: "Six-nine? Six-nine? How does Mike Dunleavy [Sr.] have a son that is six-nine? What is he, five-eleven?")

Sage
'Also, Carlos Boozer, but I don't think he's gonna get a degree. 'Los had some A-A mention, won a NC, an Olympic gold (and bronze), and has been a star in the NBA for 12 years'



I don't think anyone's career in the NBA will have anything to do with getting their jersey retired. Nolan, Kyle, Dunleavy, Carrawell will not get their jersey's retired (C-Well can't because 23 is already up there).

I have heard these words out of coach K's mouth, "Graduation and a significant national recognition." While the first part is clear, the second part is much more vague, but I don't think that 1 first team AA or 1 NDPOY cuts it, nor does being in the top ten in more than one DUKE stat category.

And to answer your question, I think that if Brand were to get his degree, his jersey would be immediately retired. He was one of the most dominant players Duke has ever had. Dominant is the key word there, to stop him you had to triple team him. Not the best, the most dominating. If you don't understand what I'm trying to say, then don't worry about it. But if I'm starting an All Star Duke team, he's my Center. I hate Jake Voskhul forever.

[johnb]

I think it does come down basically to Coach K's judgment.

If, for example, Jabari had kept hitting his 3's at a 48% clip (or whatever), and if McDermott had gone pro a year early, and if we'd won the NC, Jabari would likely have been the NPOY. And would likely have gone pro after one year. If he'd left and never taken another college class, no jersey in the rafters. If he went on to have a solid NBA career, got a degree online, and returned to Durham only for K's retirement, no jersey in the rafters. If, however, he took classes at Duke regularly, and spent his summers in Durham when he wasn't playing for Team USA and being the next Lebron Bryant, and was clearly seen as a Duke guy, he'd be getting his jersey lifted at his college graduation ceremony.

Meanwhile, I was a little surprised by the decision about Nolan and Kyle, though I do think it was a decision rather than 2 decisions (kinda had to take both if you're going to take one). But if the criteria is excellent player and good guy, we really would run out of numbers. So, they got dinged much like Carrawell, Spanarkel, etc...

[gurufrisbee]

I know it's not criteria, but if you don't spend at least three years playing for Duke I don't think you should even be considered. Maybe if you were a huge leader and Duke won back to back national titles your two seasons. Maybe - assuming you did come back and eventually graduate.

[burnspbesq]

It's possible that there will be a retirement next year, but if it happens it will almost certainly be Elizabeth Williams #1.

[Duvall]

It's possible that there will be a retirement next year, but if it happens it will almost certainly be Elizabeth Williams #1.

That seems like a stretch for a player that hasn't, and probably won't, even win ACC POY, let alone NPOY. Still, not impossible.

[CameronBornAndBred]

That seems like a stretch for a player that hasn't, and probably won't, even win ACC POY, let alone NPOY. Still, not impossible.
She has been a three time selection on the All ACC first team, and a three time ACC DPOY. (One of those is a record, both might be.)
I imagine she will be again next year, too. That doesn't mean she will hang in the rafters, but it is still pretty amazing. I think she will be up there, too.

[Blue KevIL]

Let's not make this problem too hard.

Question: How many consensus first-term All-Americans have NOT had their Duke jerseys retired?

Answer: Four -- Bob Verga (1967), Elton Brand (1999), Chris Carrawell (2000) and Nolan Smith (2011)

Question: How many players who received at least one NPOY of the year award have not had their jerseys retired?

Answer: One -- Elton Brand (consensus, 1999)

Question: How many players have had their jerseys retired without getting at least one NPOY award?

Answer: Three -- Mullins (1960s), Hurley (1990s) and Shelden (2000s)

Why and why not?

Why not Brand is easy -- two years and no degree.

Why not Carrawell is tougher, but almost all of Chris's honors were concentrated in a single season and he did little in hoops after Duke.

Why not Nolan? Three reasons -- (1) he wasn't really a NPOY candidate; (2) IMHO -- where the H is silent -- Nolan ain't getting retired without Singler getting his jersey in the rafters. While not a consensus A-A, Kyle was All-ACC four years in a row (twice first team); he is #4 in Duke scoring and #7 in rebounds, surrounded by players with retired jerseys. Kyle was the gritty leader of the four teams he played on. (3) Nolan isn't likely to add to his status at Duke with his pro record.

Why Mullins? A helluva player but with beaucoup honors after Duke -- all previously cited -- Olympic gold, NBA championship, NBA all-star x3, successful college coach. And, did I mention, he is one of the most personable guys that ever lived.

Why Shelden? How the heck could he be NPOY being in the same class with JJ? But he was twice DPOY. And when JJ's jersey was retired it would have been unthinkable not to retire Shel's.

Why not Verga? Twice consensus All-American (2nd and then 1st team). He got no honors for NPOY of the year, but then there was that Alcindor kid at UCLA his senior year who won every honor in the land. He had a decent career in the ABA -- 21 PPG for five years -- but played only briefly in the NBA.

Well, since I brought his name up, why not Singler? Well, he wasn't a consensus A-A, mostly because he lost his 3-pt. shot during much of his senior year.

Verga may eventually get his jersey retired, but his absence from Duke and lack of closeness to the program isn't helping. But, of course, if he hadn't been sick and a non-factor against Kentucky, Duke might have posted its first banner and Verga's jersey would be waving in the rafters.

Nolan may get his jersey retired on merit -- NC, 1st team A-A -- but if so, look for Singler's to go up at the same time.

Carrawell doesn't seem to be much in the conversation, since his contributions were limited to just one year (2000 -- he was 3rd team All ACC in 1999). A NC in 1999 would have added a lot to his credentials.

Final thought: Don't be surprised if Mike Dunleavy Jr. gets some mention: consensus 2nd team; graduated in three years; won a NC; has had a long and productive career in the NBA. (Of which, I will always remember Kenny Smith's immortal question: "Six-nine? Six-nine? How does Mike Dunleavy [Sr.] have a son that is six-nine? What is he, five-eleven?")

Sage
'Also, Carlos Boozer, but I don't think he's gonna get a degree. 'Los had some A-A mention, won a NC, an Olympic gold (and bronze), and has been a star in the NBA for 12 years'

Another couple of points about Shelden that I don't think have been mentioned in this thread:
He's the Duke career leader in rebounds and blocked shots.

Pretty amazing to think that Duke had its all-time leader in points scored (JJ) and its all-time leader in rebounds & blocked shots (Shelden) playing together for the same four year period.

[wsb3]

Bob Verga #11 That is the most obvious one missing.

[jv001]

Bob Verga #11 That is the most obvious one missing.

That's weird, I was just getting ready to post Bob Verga should be recognized with his jersey retired as well. All though another Bob has that jersey hanging from the rafters. Mr. Bobby Hurley(#11). Verga is one of my all time favorites to play at Duke. Followed him with the Carolina Cougars. GoDuke!

[Dev11]

Let's not make this problem too hard.

Question: How many consensus first-term All-Americans have NOT had their Duke jerseys retired?

Answer: Four -- Bob Verga (1967), Elton Brand (1999), Chris Carrawell (2000) and Nolan Smith (2011)

Question: How many players who received at least one NPOY of the year award have not had their jerseys retired?

Answer: One -- Elton Brand (consensus, 1999)

Question: How many players have had their jerseys retired without getting at least one NPOY award?

Answer: Three -- Mullins (1960s), Hurley (1990s) and Shelden (2000s)

Why and why not?

Why not Brand is easy -- two years and no degree.

Why not Carrawell is tougher, but almost all of Chris's honors were concentrated in a single season and he did little in hoops after Duke.

Why not Nolan? Three reasons -- (1) he wasn't really a NPOY candidate; (2) IMHO -- where the H is silent -- Nolan ain't getting retired without Singler getting his jersey in the rafters. While not a consensus A-A, Kyle was All-ACC four years in a row (twice first team); he is #4 in Duke scoring and #7 in rebounds, surrounded by players with retired jerseys. Kyle was the gritty leader of the four teams he played on. (3) Nolan isn't likely to add to his status at Duke with his pro record.

Why Mullins? A helluva player but with beaucoup honors after Duke -- all previously cited -- Olympic gold, NBA championship, NBA all-star x3, successful college coach. And, did I mention, he is one of the most personable guys that ever lived.

Why Shelden? How the heck could he be NPOY being in the same class with JJ? But he was twice DPOY. And when JJ's jersey was retired it would have been unthinkable not to retire Shel's.

Why not Verga? Twice consensus All-American (2nd and then 1st team). He got no honors for NPOY of the year, but then there was that Alcindor kid at UCLA his senior year who won every honor in the land. He had a decent career in the ABA -- 21 PPG for five years -- but played only briefly in the NBA.

Well, since I brought his name up, why not Singler? Well, he wasn't a consensus A-A, mostly because he lost his 3-pt. shot during much of his senior year.

Verga may eventually get his jersey retired, but his absence from Duke and lack of closeness to the program isn't helping. But, of course, if he hadn't been sick and a non-factor against Kentucky, Duke might have posted its first banner and Verga's jersey would be waving in the rafters.

Nolan may get his jersey retired on merit -- NC, 1st team A-A -- but if so, look for Singler's to go up at the same time.

Carrawell doesn't seem to be much in the conversation, since his contributions were limited to just one year (2000 -- he was 3rd team All ACC in 1999). A NC in 1999 would have added a lot to his credentials.

Final thought: Don't be surprised if Mike Dunleavy Jr. gets some mention: consensus 2nd team; graduated in three years; won a NC; has had a long and productive career in the NBA. (Of which, I will always remember Kenny Smith's immortal question: "Six-nine? Six-nine? How does Mike Dunleavy [Sr.] have a son that is six-nine? What is he, five-eleven?")

Sage
'Also, Carlos Boozer, but I don't think he's gonna get a degree. 'Los had some A-A mention, won a NC, an Olympic gold (and bronze), and has been a star in the NBA for 12 years'

I think you inadvertently left Jabari off the 1st Team AA list.

I doubt Elton gets retired even if he does get his degree. I think that getting the degree years down the road doesn't mean as much to the legacy of the player as getting it while you're still in the program, but that could just be picking nits.

With Andre graduating, the 2010 championship team has no names in the rafters. I think that says how much college basketball has changed.

[sagegrouse]

I think you inadvertently left Jabari off the 1st Team AA list.

I doubt Elton gets retired even if he does get his degree. I think that getting the degree years down the road doesn't mean as much to the legacy of the player as getting it while you're still in the program, but that could just be picking nits.

With Andre graduating, the 2010 championship team has no names in the rafters. I think that says how much college basketball has changed.

Re Jabari: you're right -- I used the 2014 Media Guide, which was published prior to the season. No one here thinks that Parker's jersey should be retired, do they?

Re Elton: I haven't talk to him in years, but most of the NBA types thought he was a really good person, which would help in jersey retirement should he ever get his degree.

[gurufrisbee]

I think possibly the biggest obstacle to Nolan and Singler getting retired is not either of them, but the newest assistant coach. Jon Scheyer. The national title run in 2010 had all three of them being great, but really he was the best of the three. He doesn't have the stats or awards from his other three seasons like they both do in their other three, but I think in some ways it might just seem weird to retire Nolan and/or Singler's numbers knowing that they were very likely the second and third best players on that championship team.

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

Why not Brand? Two years at Duke (but played only 1.6 seasons) is not enough to be recognized as an "all time great," even if he were to graduate some day. Led team to only one Final Four, but lost championship game.

Why Mullins? He was a star player on Duke's first two Final Four teams. Other than Heyman, he was clearly the best of the Bubas era.

If you start considering guys like Dunleavy, Boozer, Verga, Carawell, then what about Denton, Marin, Banks, etc., etc.? Where does it end when you have had so many terrific players?

Can't retire too many jerseys/numbers. In addition to lowering the extremely high standards, we'd run out of numbers for future players.

Retirement is for the extra special, super stars. Hall of Fame recognition is there for other greats who fall a bit short. I'd expect to see Nolan and Kyle in the Duke Sports HOF someday.

[GGLC]

Why not Brand? Two years at Duke (but played only 1.6 seasons) is not enough to be recognized as an "all time great," even if he were to graduate some day. Led team to only one Final Four, but lost championship game.

Why Mullins? He was a star player on Duke's first two Final Four teams. Other than Heyman, he was clearly the best of the Bubas era.

If you start considering guys like Dunleavy, Boozer, Verga, Carawell, then what about Denton, Marin, Banks, etc., etc.? Where does it end when you have had so many terrific players?

Can't retire too many jerseys/numbers. In addition to lowering the extremely high standards, we'd run out of numbers for future players.

Retirement is for the extra special, super stars. Hall of Fame recognition is there for other greats who fall a bit short. I'd expect to see Nolan and Kyle in the Duke Sports HOF someday.

Nolan and Kyle both (a) graduated and (b) were integral parts of a national championship team, which you can't say about Dunleavy (to my knowledge), Boozer (to my knowledge), Verga, Carawell, Denton, Marin, or Banks.

You can say that about Scheyer, of course, and I think that gurufrisbee is exactly right that the reason that Singler and/or Smith's jerseys haven't been retired is that all three of them were too good, and none of them were sufficiently head and shoulders above the others, to justify retiring only one or two -- and yet the combined accomplishments etc. don't warrant retiring all three.

It's interesting. Had Scheyer been a less core member of that national title team I'd wager we'd see Smith and Singler's jerseys retired...or, contrariwise, if that group had then gone on the next year to win back-to-back titles (let's call this the world where Kyrie never made the acquaintance of any podiatrists), then it's eminently possible you would have seen retirements for each of the three.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Re Jabari: you're right -- I used the 2014 Media Guide, which was published prior to the season. No one here thinks that Parker's jersey should be retired, do they?

Re Elton: I haven't talk to him in years, but most of the NBA types thought he was a really good person, which would help in jersey retirement should he ever get his degree.

I don't think so, but I do recall a thread started back in November asking whether Jabari was the best player ever to wear a Duke jersey. Can we go back and revisit that thread again? Surely if he is, an argument could be made to put him up there...

/end snark

[CameronBornAndBred]

Nolan and Kyle both (a) graduated and (b) were integral parts of a national championship team, which you can't say about Dunleavy (to my knowledge), Boozer (to my knowledge), Verga, Carawell, Denton, Marin, or Banks.

Dunleavy and Boozer were both national champions along with everyone else in 2001, right? (And both averaged over 10 ppg and over 5 rpg that year, which means they were integral.)

[GGLC]

Dunleavy and Boozer were both national champions along with everyone else in 2001, right? (And both averaged over 10 ppg and over 5 rpg that year, which means they were integral.)

Correct, but as far as I know they haven't graduated. I could be wrong about that, though.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Correct, but as far as I know they haven't graduated. I could be wrong about that, though.
Gotcha. I love those two, and it is awesome that the NBA worked out so well for them, but even if they do graduate I'm not sure I'd call them rafter worthy. Definitely belong in the halls of Cameron though.

[sagegrouse]

Nolan and Kyle both (a) graduated and (b) were integral parts of a national championship team, which you can't say about Dunleavy (to my knowledge), Boozer (to my knowledge), Verga, Carawell, Denton, Marin, or Banks.

.

Dunleavy graduated and was an integral part of the victory over Zona in the finals. I seem to remember three threes in about 90 seconds.

[GGLC]

Dunleavy graduated and was an integral part of the victory over Zona in the finals. I seem to remember three threes in about 90 seconds.

So he did! Apparently he graduated in the summer of 2005 with a degree in History; that's awesome. Good for him.

I'm absolutely not questioning his contributions to our national title. :)

So of the players Bay Area Duke Fan named, Dunleavy goes in the same bucket as Scheyer, Singler, and Smith.

[CDu]

So he did! Apparently he graduated in the summer of 2005 with a degree in History; that's awesome. Good for him.

I'm absolutely not questioning his contributions to our national title. :)

So of the players Bay Area Duke Fan named, Dunleavy goes in the same bucket as Scheyer, Singler, and Smith.

Well, sort of:

Smith was a First-Team All-American and ACC PoY.

Singler was a Final Four MOP and 3-time All-ACC (including a First-Team All-ACC). And he finished as the #4 scorer and #7 rebounder in Duke history.

Scheyer was a Second-Team All-American and First-Team All-ACC, and scored nearly 2,100 points.

Dunleavy was a Second-Team All-American and First-Team All-ACC.

So Dunleavy was close to Scheyer (but short of his career accomplishments), but not really near Smith or Singler.

I'd be okay with him in the same bucket as Scheyer, but not the same bucket as Singler and Smith.

[GGLC]

Well, sort of:

Smith was a First-Team All-American and ACC PoY.

Singler was a Final Four MOP and 3-time All-ACC (including a First-Team All-ACC). And he finished as the #4 scorer and #7 rebounder in Duke history.

Scheyer was a Second-Team All-American and First-Team All-ACC, and scored nearly 2,100 points.

Dunleavy was a Second-Team All-American and First-Team All-ACC.

So Dunleavy was close to Scheyer (but short of his career accomplishments), but not really near Smith or Singler.

I'd be okay with him in the same bucket as Scheyer, but not the same bucket as Singler and Smith.

Fair enough. This just supplements my point to Bay Area Duke Fan, which is that you can't lump Kyle and Nolan in with "Dunleavy, Verga, Boozer, Carawell[,] . . . Denton, Marin, Banks, etc." when considering what they may have done to merit the retirement of their jersey.

On the strength of their careers, I believe that Kyle and Nolan absolutely should be in -- I think they're on a qualitatively different level than most of the guys Bay Area Duke Fan mentioned (I don't know enough about Verga, Marin, or for that matter Spanarkel to offer a judgment). But I do agree with gurufrisbee that the fact that Scheyer was right there along with them as a core part of that national title team and a four-year player may be a key reason that we don't now see Kyle and Nolan's jerseys up there in the rafters.

[sagegrouse]

Well, sort of:

Smith was a First-Team All-American and ACC PoY.

Singler was a Final Four MOP and 3-time All-ACC (including a First-Team All-ACC). And he finished as the #4 scorer and #7 rebounder in Duke history.

Scheyer was a Second-Team All-American and First-Team All-ACC, and scored nearly 2,100 points.

Dunleavy was a Second-Team All-American and First-Team All-ACC.

So Dunleavy was close to Scheyer (but short of his career accomplishments), but not really near Smith or Singler.

I'd be okay with him in the same bucket as Scheyer, but not the same bucket as Singler and Smith.

Singler was four-time All-ACC -- 3rd team, 2nd team and twice first team, unless I misread the Media Guide. This is something special!

WRT Dunleavy, the trio of JWill, Dunleavy and Boozer was just effing awesome -- better, I think, than the Triple S law firm of 2010. (And, of course, Battier was NPOY in 2001.) As a result of this embarrassment of riches, neither Boozer nor Dunleavy got the individual honors they deserved, although I recall watching TV when CBS Sports picked its All-American team in 2002, and all three guys made it.

[Wander]

Why not Nolan? Three reasons -- (1) he wasn't really a NPOY candidate

Nolan was definitely a serious NPOY candidate - he even won a couple minor NPOY awards from national media outlets (FoxSports and Yahoo).

I was on the fence for a while, but the more time passes, the more I support Singler, Smith, and Scheyer all going to the rafters. 2010 is our only national champion without two jerseys, let alone one. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe they're our only Final Four team without a jersey. I know the obvious counterargument is that those metrics are team accomplishments, but consider what the state of our program would be without those guys: we wouldn't have a single Final Four in the past decade, our status as a powerhouse could be seriously argued against, and Coach K would deservedly or not be feeling a ton of heat. Those guys saved the program.

[lotusland]

Why not Brand? Two years at Duke (but played only 1.6 seasons) is not enough to be recognized as an "all time great," even if he were to graduate some day. Led team to only one Final Four, but lost championship game.

Why Mullins? He was a star player on Duke's first two Final Four teams. Other than Heyman, he was clearly the best of the Bubas era.

If you start considering guys like Dunleavy, Boozer, Verga, Carawell, then what about Denton, Marin, Banks, etc., etc.? Where does it end when you have had so many terrific players?

Can't retire too many jerseys/numbers. In addition to lowering the extremely high standards, we'd run out of numbers for future players.

Retirement is for the extra special, super stars. Hall of Fame recognition is there for other greats who fall a bit short. I'd expect to see Nolan and Kyle in the Duke Sports HOF someday.

So this circles back to the original question (after the inevitable discussion about whether X former player deserves having their jersey retired) - how often will we see a player in the OAD era who meets the criteria (whatever it is) if you insist that they contribute more than Jon, Kyle, Nolan and Mason. It could happen and probably will again but almost certainly not at the rate it did in the latter part of the last century.

[lotusland]

That's what I was gonna suggest. If Tyus does JWill's 3 Year Plan, he's our guy for next retirement, I think.

Tyus will surely be a much different player than JWill but I wonder if JWill would stay three years in today's environment. His shortened NBA career is a pretty strong argument not to lengthen your college career any more than necessary. I really Doubt Tyus stays three years if his first two are comparable to Jwill's.

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe they're our only Final Four team without a jersey.

The 1966 Final Four team had no player whose jersey has been retired. Heyman and Mullins were the only Bubas-era players so honored.

[gep]

I doubt Elton gets retired even if he does get his degree. I think that getting the degree years down the road doesn't mean as much to the legacy of the player as getting it while you're still in the program, but that could just be picking nits.

I was thinking about this too. Graduation, while being a player at the school, clearly puts you in the student/athlete category, which requires all of the necessary commitments to study, time management, practices, games... over 4 (or 3) years. Add to that the extreme commitment to excel as a player to earn a "national award". Leaving early, and then getting your degree years after leaving, while very admirable, doesn't quite fit the student/athlete definition, if a good portion of the "student" part is not while playing for the school. One minor exception... I think JWill got his final 2 courses done in the summer after his 3rd year and graduated in August(?). :confused:

[Tappan Zee Devil]

On the strength of their careers, I believe that Kyle and Nolan absolutely should be in -- I think they're on a qualitatively different level than most of the guys Bay Area Duke Fan mentioned (I don't know enough about Verga, Marin, or for that matter Spanarkel to offer a judgment). But I do agree with gurufrisbee that the fact that Scheyer was right there along with them as a core part of that national title team and a four-year player may be a key reason that we don't now see Kyle and Nolan's jerseys up there in the rafters.

My Freshman year was Verga's Senior year. He averaged over 26 points per game that year (which was the Duke record until JJ broke it) - and that was with no shot clock and no three point line. If there had a three point line he would have had well over 30 points a game. He could really bomb from long-distance. It was really something to watch.

I think one reason that he has not gotten the recognition that he probably deserves is that he was also a loner and not easy to like at a personal level.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Tyus will surely be a much different player than JWill but I wonder if JWill would stay three years in today's environment. His shortened NBA career is a pretty strong argument not to lengthen your college career any more than necessary.
I don't get it. Does staying only two years mean he wouldn't have jumped on the bike? His staying and graduating actually gave him the means to have a career after his playing days were quickly shortened, so I would think the opposite of your argument would be true.

[CDu]

I don't get it. Does staying only two years mean he wouldn't have jumped on the bike? His staying and graduating actually gave him the means to have a career after his playing days were quickly shortened, so I would think the opposite of your argument would be true.

Yeah, Williams (though he is a fairly unique case) absolutely was helped by staying. It got him that Duke degree and kept him firmly in the Duke family with those connections. One can only assume he'd have bought the motorcycle and not learned to ride (and thus been at the same risk) had he left as a sophomore or as a junior.

[roywhite]

IMO, next jersey in the rafters will come from someone yet to play their first game for Duke.

My hunch -- Tyus Jones or Luke Kennard
Tyus for his passing and leadership, which can result in assist numbers, team wins, and championships
Kennard -- a big-time scorer, I think, and he can also figure in championships

For serious consideration, their Duke careers would need to be at least 3 seasons
My crystal ball does not yet indicate how many seasons played or what final stats will be for these young men.

[msdukie]

You know it is the offseason when we are starting this ridiculous thread again. As to the original poster, I'd like to know how we are "recycling retired numbers?" Finally, instead of bringing up Gminski and Mullins and comparing them to NPOYs, has it occurred to anyone that as time has gone on and the program has become greater that the standards for and difficulty of getting one's number retired has changed?

If Mullins and Gminski played today, I think their chances of getting their jerseys retired would be lower than at the time the decisions were made.

While the only requirements are graduation and an honor of national significance (left undefined), if you play at Duke 4 years and graduate (or graduate in 3), and are NPOY you are getting your number retired. Anything else is mere speculation.

[uh_no]

You know it is the offseason when we are starting this ridiculous thread again. As to the original poster, I'd like to know how we are "recycling retired numbers?" Finally, instead of bringing up Gminski and Mullins and comparing them to NPOYs, has it occurred to anyone that as time has gone on and the program has become greater that the standards for and difficulty of getting one's number retired has changed?

If Mullins and Gminski played today, I think their chances of getting their jerseys retired would be lower than at the time the decisions were made.

While the only requirements are graduation and an honor of national significance (left undefined), if you play at Duke 4 years and graduate (or graduate in 3), and are NPOY you are getting your number retired. Anything else is mere speculation.

now that's something i'd pay to see!

though we might need the trainers on high alert

[Edouble]

We could assume that, but even that criteria has been violated. Because Hurley, Gminski, and Mullins didn't meet either of those criteria (as none got NPoY or NDPoY).

Unless Coach K changed his criteria midway through his tenure (sometime after Mullins and Hurley got their numbers retired), which I guess is possible.

I'm certain that he did.

At the Q&A segment of the pre-UNC game "team meeting" in probably '96 or '97, someone in the crowd asked what a player had to do to have his jersey retired.

Coach K's answer was that they had to be a "National Player of the Year, or on that level for several years" and also go to "probably a couple of Final Fours". It was a loose answer, but I remember what he said very clearly, as I had always wondered that myself.

Keep in mind of course that the last jersey retired at this time was Grant Hill's.

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

I'm certain that he did.

At the Q&A segment of the pre-UNC game "team meeting" in probably '96 or '97, someone in the crowd asked what a player had to do to have his jersey retired.

Coach K's answer was that they had to be a "National Player of the Year, or on that level for several years" and also go to "probably a couple of Final Fours". It was a loose answer, but I remember what he said very clearly, as I had always wondered that myself.

Keep in mind of course that the last jersey retired at this time was Grant Hill's.

Jeff Mullins' jersey was retired in 1994, same year as Hill's.

[wsb3]

My Freshman year was Verga's Senior year. He averaged over 26 points per game that year (which was the Duke record until JJ broke it) - and that was with no shot clock and no three point line. If there had a three point line he would have had well over 30 points a game. He could really bomb from long-distance. It was really something to watch.

Very good post. One other tidbit. Averaged 22 PPG for a career. He is without question for me the most obvious choice for a jersey missing in the rafters.

[lotusland]

I don't get it. Does staying only two years mean he wouldn't have jumped on the bike? His staying and graduating actually gave him the means to have a career after his playing days were quickly shortened, so I would think the opposite of your argument would be true.

Maybe your right that jwills situation doesn't inform others to leave early but my thought was that his experience emphasizes that your pro playing days are numbered and can end much sooner than expected.

[jimsumner]

Some random thoughts.

I've always wondered why Mullins but not Vega. Career stats very close,both three-time first-team All-ACC, All-America. Mullins was ACC POY, while Verga was a close second to Larry Miller in 1967 (Verga had the most votes for All-ACC), Mullins has an Olympic gold medal, and Mullins played in two FF's, to Verga's one.

But I suspect other factors may be at work. Mullins stayed very close to the program, while Verga did not.

But I still maintain that if Duke retires any more jerseys, Verga has to top the list.

Gminski is a no-brainer, for me. Look at his resume. ACC co-freshman of the year, three-time first-team All-ACC, 1979 ACC POY, two-time All-America. He was Duke's all-time leader in points, rebounds and blocks when his jersey was retired in 1980.

Singler? One of my favorite Duke players. I loved his fire, his competitiveness, his refusal to take off a single play.

And his cumulative stats are pretty impressive.

But. We are talking about a guy who never made AP All-America, never won ACC POY, was never even the best player on his team (Nelson, 2008: Henderson, 2009; Scheyer, 2010; Smith, 2011). Is that good enough to leap-frog Verga, Mark Alarie, Jim Spanarkel, Gene Banks, Trajan Langdon, et. al? I think not.

And yes, he was 2010 FF MOP and deservedly so. But guys like Jeff Shepard and Wayne Ellington also won that award and they aren't jersey-in-the-rafter kind of guys. So, I think Singler is a silly centimeter shy.

As for the next icon? Haven't a clue. It's a Catch-22. The guys good enough to merit jersey retirement are not likely to stick around long enough. Maybe Luke Kennard or some we haven't seen yet will stick around as an All-America. Maybe the NBA and the player's union will bump up the age requirement. Who knows?

[Edouble]

Maybe your right that jwills situation doesn't inform others to leave early but my thought was that his experience emphasizes that your pro playing days are numbered and can end much sooner than expected.

I have always assumed that if Jason had gone pro after his sophomore year that he would have been taken by the Wizards with the first pick. At some point, he most likely would have been blown away by Gilbert Arenas (doesn't like Coach K) or Lonny Baxter (doesn't like Duke). So, in my mind, he saved a broadcasting career, at least, by staying at Duke for his junior year.

[sagegrouse]

Singler? One of my favorite Duke players. I loved his fire, his competitiveness, his refusal to take off a single play.

And his cumulative stats are pretty impressive.

But. We are talking about a guy who never made AP All-America, never won ACC POY, was never even the best player on his team (Nelson, 2008: Henderson, 2009; Scheyer, 2010; Smith, 2011)....

And yes, he was 2010 FF MOP and deservedly so. But guys like Jeff Shepard and Wayne Ellington also won that award and they aren't jersey-in-the-rafter kind of guys. So, I think Singler is a silly centimeter shy.



"...was never the best player on his team..." Maybe you are right, Jim, but I wouldn't be be too sure about that. Kyle was the heart-and-soul of all four Duke teams. The knowledgeable college coaches even gave him an all-American selection in 2011, despite his poor shooting that year. And BTW what is Kyle doing now vs. the other guys you mentioned? Only Henderson is in the NBA.

Three years ago, it looked like Nolan Smith might be NPOY, which seems to always lead to a jersey retirement. Coach K started extolling the accomplishments of Singler (especially position on the all-time Duke scoring and rebounding lists). I thought at the time that, if Nolan got his jersey retired, Kyle's would go up as well.

[CameronBornAndBred]

And BTW what is Kyle doing now vs. the other guys you mentioned? Only Henderson is in the NBA.
To be fair to Scheyer, he obviously never got a chance due to his freak injury, BUT he is on our bench again on his way to a long coaching career. You are right about Demarcus and Nolan, both of which are surprising to me. I had lots of hopes for Nelson sticking around, especially since he started on opening night.

[jimsumner]

"...was never the best player on his team..." Maybe you are right, Jim, but I wouldn't be be too sure about that. Kyle was the heart-and-soul of all four Duke teams. The knowledgeable college coaches even gave him an all-American selection in 2011, despite his poor shooting that year. And BTW what is Kyle doing now vs. the other guys you mentioned? Only Henderson is in the NBA.

Three years ago, it looked like Nolan Smith might be NPOY, which seems to always lead to a jersey retirement. Coach K started extolling the accomplishments of Singler (especially position on the all-time Duke scoring and rebounding lists). I thought at the time that, if Nolan got his jersey retired, Kyle's would go up as well.

Marty Nessley played in the NBA, while classmate Tommy Amaker never did.

Pretty sure that doesn't mean Nessley was a better player than Amaker while they were at Duke.

Shavlik Randolph played in the NBA this season. Where would you rank him in the pantheon? Lance Thomas played in the NBA, Scheyer didn't.

Singler's cumulative stats are very impressive. Because he was good. But also because he played lots of games, almost twice as many as some guys from the '60s whose jerseys hang from the rafters. He helped his team play lots of games by helping them win in the post-season. But four years at 35-40 games per season is a lot different than three years at 30 games for season. His per-game stats aren't anywhere near as impressive as his cumulative stats. Apples and oranges,

I understand what Singler brought to the team and have stated many times that he is one of my favorite Duke players. I interviewed him numerous times, saw every home game and some road games he played at while at Duke. In person. Courtside. Close enough to be sweated on. So, yes I understand his value.
We probably share DNA.

But NBA success or lack thereof is irrelevant to the point at hand. Kyle Singler was never the best player on his Duke team.

As I stated earlier, I think he's a silly centimeter shy. That's pretty good. But the criteria, as explained to me by the last two Duke ADs, take into account national honors. Season-long national honors. Singler simply doesn't meet that threshold.

Unless we go all Carolina and count his pre-season national POY recognition for 2010-11. :)

[Olympic Fan]

One note about Kyle Singer.

He started in more victories than any other player in NCAA history.

The NCAA doesn't actually keep that stat. They do measure the number of wins players have played in -- and Kyle is like 6th or 7th on that list with 125 wins -- behind Shane Battier (132), among others.

But every player ahead of him came off the bench in a substantial number of wins (including Battier), while Singler started 124 of his 125 wins.

PS Jim, in your comparison of Mullions and Verga, you note that both were All-Americans -- but the fact is that Verga was a consensus first-team All-America ... Mullins was never more than a consensus second-team guy. But Mullins did win an ACC POY and an ACC Tournament MVP (when you had to win the tournament to go to the NCAA) ... Verga won neither, although he easily could have won twice -- in 1966 he was edged out for ACC POY by teammate Steve Vacendak (who was only second-team ACC, but won ACC POY; he also finished behind teammate Jack Marin). As you note in 1967, Verga was the leading All-ACC bote-getter, but he lost the POY vote to Larry Miller by a 52-48 margin.

That said, I agree with you that if any past player was added, it should be Verga (and his No. 11 has been retired -- for Hurley).

After that, I think the Singler/Smith combo should go in together.

[jimsumner]

One note about Kyle Singer.

He started in more victories than any other player in NCAA history.

The NCAA doesn't actually keep that stat. They do measure the number of wins players have played in -- and Kyle is like 6th or 7th on that list with 125 wins -- behind Shane Battier (132), among others.

But every player ahead of him came off the bench in a substantial number of wins (including Battier), while Singler started 124 of his 125 wins.

PS Jim, in your comparison of Mullions and Verga, you note that both were All-Americans -- but the fact is that Verga was a consensus first-team All-America ... Mullins was never more than a consensus second-team guy. But Mullins did win an ACC POY and an ACC Tournament MVP (when you had to win the tournament to go to the NCAA) ... Verga won neither, although he easily could have won twice -- in 1966 he was edged out for ACC POY by teammate Steve Vacendak (who was only second-team ACC, but won ACC POY; he also finished behind teammate Jack Marin). As you note in 1967, Verga was the leading All-ACC bote-getter, but he lost the POY vote to Larry Miller by a 52-48 margin.

That said, I agree with you that if any past player was added, it should be Verga (and his No. 11 has been retired -- for Hurley).

After that, I think the Singler/Smith combo should go in together.

Consensus second-team All-America is better than anything Singler accomplished.

I hate threads like this because they make it seem like I'm dissing Singler and I'm doing nothing of the sort. But my good friend Olympic Friend knows that Singler doesn't meet the national-honor guidelines. Doesn't mean Duke won't look the other way for him. But it is out there.

[Olympic Fan]

Consensus second-team All-America is better than anything Singler accomplished.

I hate threads like this because they make it seem like I'm dissing Singler and I'm doing nothing of the sort. But my good friend Olympic Friend knows that Singler doesn't meet the national-honor guidelines. Doesn't mean Duke won't look the other way for him. But it is out there.

It's the same problem with the Baseball Hall of Fame or the size of the NCAA Tournament field -- you have to draw a line somewhere and wherever you draw it, there's going to be somebody just on the other side of the line that's going to have an argument.

Right now, the line would seem to be between Mullins (the least qualified guy in the rafters) and Verga (the most qualified guy not in the rafters). But put Verga in and the Singler partisans start pushing for their man. Put him in and the Nolan Smith guys make a push for their guy .. then Jack Marin, Trajan Langdon, John Scheyer, Mark Alarie, Randy Denton ... the list of great players goes on.

If you put everybody in, it's not much of an honor. I like having honored jerseys for the guys who don't quite make the cut for retired jerseys -- and I like honoring them in the team's Hall of Fame museum, not hanging from the rafters (seriously, when you visit the Smith Center, look up -- it's like it's laundry day and they've hung 40 or so jerseys out to dry).

We can quibble about the line, but I happen to think it's about in the right place. And I grew up idolizing Verga. I think Singler is one of the greatest warriors to ever play for Duke.

And as for who will be the next guy to have his jersey retired? I can't guess -- but I do recall a conversation with an NBA scout back in 1994 who tried to tell me that Grant Hill would be the last guy at Duke to have his jersey retired. It took seven years before Battier got his number in the rafters ... and year later, there was Jason. It's been eight years since JJ and Shelden went up and there's no strong candidate in sight. But there will be ... just no telling when.

[jimsumner]

It's the same problem with the Baseball Hall of Fame or the size of the NCAA Tournament field -- you have to draw a line somewhere and wherever you draw it, there's going to be somebody just on the other side of the line that's going to have an argument.

Right now, the line would seem to be between Mullins (the least qualified guy in the rafters) and Verga (the most qualified guy not in the rafters). But put Verga in and the Singler partisans start pushing for their man. Put him in and the Nolan Smith guys make a push for their guy .. then Jack Marin, Trajan Langdon, John Scheyer, Mark Alarie, Randy Denton ... the list of great players goes on.

If you put everybody in, it's not much of an honor. I like having honored jerseys for the guys who don't quite make the cut for retired jerseys -- and I like honoring them in the team's Hall of Fame museum, not hanging from the rafters (seriously, when you visit the Smith Center, look up -- it's like it's laundry day and they've hung 40 or so jerseys out to dry).

We can quibble about the line, but I happen to think it's about in the right place. And I grew up idolizing Verga. I think Singler is one of the greatest warriors to ever play for Duke.

And as for who will be the next guy to have his jersey retired? I can't guess -- but I do recall a conversation with an NBA scout back in 1994 who tried to tell me that Grant Hill would be the last guy at Duke to have his jersey retired. It took seven years before Battier got his number in the rafters ... and year later, there was Jason. It's been eight years since JJ and Shelden went up and there's no strong candidate in sight. But there will be ... just no telling when.

I agree about the Duke Sports Hall of Fame, which currently includes people like Bob Verga, Jack Marin, Mike Lewis, Jim Spanarkel, Gene Banks, Mark Alarie, Tommy Amaker, Randy Denton and a boatload of pre-ACC players, like Bill Werber and Ed Koffenberger. I can certainly see a place there for Singler and Smith down the road and this is not an insignificant honor.

[sagegrouse]

It's the same problem with the Baseball Hall of Fame or the size of the NCAA Tournament field -- you have to draw a line somewhere and wherever you draw it, there's going to be somebody just on the other side of the line that's going to have an argument.

Right now, the line would seem to be between Mullins (the least qualified guy in the rafters) and Verga (the most qualified guy not in the rafters). But put Verga in and the Singler partisans start pushing for their man. Put him in and the Nolan Smith guys make a push for their guy .. then Jack Marin, Trajan Langdon, John Scheyer, Mark Alarie, Randy Denton ... the list of great players goes on.



OMG, Olympic Fan! You implied that the baseball Hall of Fame is an admirable organization. This, the organization that used a 75 percent vote for admission back in the 1930s when the voters were a small fraternity of fewer than 50 scribes and still uses 75 percent when you have over 700 voters of all stripes and levels of knowledge. You don't have to have a PhD in poli sci to realize that the original criterion is wholly inapplicable today. And this, the organization that honors Bowie Kuhn, whose business and legal career ended in disgrace, and snubs his successful protagonist, Marvin Miller, one of the most innovative labor leaders of the last century.

Oh, and Jeff Mullins was on campus last week for his 50th reunion. He'll probably give you a call. He can bring by his Olympic gold medal and his NBA championship ring plus other emoluments.

Kindly, Sage

[jimsumner]

OMG, Olympic Fan! You implied that the baseball Hall of Fame is an admirable organization. This, the organization that used a 75 percent vote for admission back in the 1930s when the voters were a small fraternity of fewer than 50 scribes and still uses 75 percent when you have over 700 voters of all stripes and levels of knowledge. You don't have to have a PhD in poli sci to realize that the original criterion is wholly inapplicable today. And this, the organization that honors Bowie Kuhn, whose business and legal career ended in disgrace, and snubs his successful protagonist, Marvin Miller, one of the most innovative labor leaders of the last century.

Oh, and Jeff Mullins was on campus last week for his 50th reunion. He'll probably give you a call. He can bring by his Olympic gold medal and his NBA championship ring plus other emoluments.

Kindly, Sage


I think you're reading too much into Olympic Fan's post, which simply suggested that there is controversy over qualifications. Trust me, I've had plenty of off board conversations with Olympic Fan on the subject of the Baseball HoF and he shares many of your concerns. As do I.

[arnie]

I agree about the Duke Sports Hall of Fame, which currently includes people like Bob Verga, Jack Marin, Mike Lewis, Jim Spanarkel, Gene Banks, Mark Alarie, Tommy Amaker, Randy Denton and a boatload of pre-ACC players, like Bill Werber and Ed Koffenberger. I can certainly see a place there for Singler and Smith down the road and this is not an insignificant honor.

Except for Jim Sumner' s posts, very little mention of Gene Banks. While I don't think his jersey should be retired, the impact of his decision to come to Duke was enormous. His matriculation and great play led us to heights not seen in the prior 12 years. Without Banks, Duke's recent role in college bball may have been a lot different.

[NYBri]

Except for Jim Sumner' s posts, very little mention of Gene Banks. While I don't think his jersey should be retired, the impact of his decision to come to Duke was enormous. His matriculation and great play led us to heights not seen in the prior 12 years. Without Banks, Duke's recent role in college bball may have been a lot different.

Banks was a game changer in Duke history. He opened the door.

[jimsumner]

Except for Jim Sumner' s posts, very little mention of Gene Banks. While I don't think his jersey should be retired, the impact of his decision to come to Duke was enormous. His matriculation and great play led us to heights not seen in the prior 12 years. Without Banks, Duke's recent role in college bball may have been a lot different.

I've written that, IMO, Art Heyman and Banks were the most important recruits in Duke history, with Dawkins just behind. For two reasons. At a time when Duke basketball was at a historic low point, Banks turned down Carolina, UCLA, Notre Dame and Penn to cast his lot with Bill Foster and Duke. Secondly, he was the first high-profile inner-city African-American athlete to pick Duke at a time when the school had not shed all of its racial baggage.

And he was pretty good on the court, too.

[sagegrouse]

I think you're reading too much into Olympic Fan's post, which simply suggested that there is controversy over qualifications. Trust me, I've had plenty of off board conversations with Olympic Fan on the subject of the Baseball HoF and he shares many of your concerns. As do I.

Oh, it was just a practice rant -- I was afraid I was getting stale. -- Kindly, Sage

[greybeard]

Singler was singularly responsible for Duke's having avoided a dramatic dive after Shelden and JJ left; instead, he was the figure around which Duke coalesced on a terrific run, with imaginative play and a national championship. He played several positions, or a position without definition. when needed, he was as good an inside scorer for short spurts as all but a few that Duke has had, was a terrific scorer who did not need the ball, and played with a sense of self that bespoke an all out commitment and competence that was captivating.

Singler stands out. I saw every guy mentioned in this thread play. They all thrilled. Singler stands out. A jersey in the rafters would not capture why. He just does.

[wsb3]

Except for Jim Sumner' s posts, very little mention of Gene Banks. While I don't think his jersey should be retired, the impact of his decision to come to Duke was enormous. His matriculation and great play led us to heights not seen in the prior 12 years. Without Banks, Duke's recent role in college bball may have been a lot different.

I agree with this post. Many of us suffered through that stretch after Bubas retired until 1978. Banks was a game changer for us. Reminds me of the book, 'Forever's Team.' Love that book.