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JasonEvans
04-17-2014, 12:26 PM
Via a SI article

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20140417/jabari-parker-declares-for-nba-draft/

Ultimately, I boiled my decision down to two simple questions:

Which environment -- college or the NBA -- offers me the best opportunity to grow as a basketball player?

Which environment -- college or the NBA -- offers me the best opportunity to grow and develop off the court?

The answer to both questions is undeniably the NBA.

There is something else. My father, Sonny, played in the NBA. I know firsthand that the career span of a pro basketball player is finite. The lucky ones play until their mid-30s. With that perspective, I shrink my professional career with each year that I remain in college. It's ironic, but true.

Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20140417/jabari-parker-declares-for-nba-draft/#ixzz2zA5c0BVc


-Jason "I wish him all the best of luck... though he won't need it. He's going to be a great pro!" Evans

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
04-17-2014, 12:30 PM
All the best.

jipops
04-17-2014, 12:32 PM
As most have predicted. I'm sure he's even more happy to have this process over with. This kid is going to be a great representative of Duke University.

Duke4life92
04-17-2014, 12:36 PM
All the best to him.Go lakers-lol.Come on down mr turner.I know,would be a dream,but still.

GGLC
04-17-2014, 12:37 PM
Sigh.

I don't doubt that he weighed his options carefully, and I believe that it was a difficult decision for him. I have no bad feelings toward Jabari whatsoever, and I hope he has an amazing NBA career. He will always be part of the Duke family.

But...I just really wanted to see him play one more year as a Blue Devil. That would have been so amazing. Expecting this outcome and understanding why he made the decision that he did doesn't make the disappointment any less poignant or immediate. It may have been the right decision for him, but the intrinsically selfish part of me really, really wishes this could have gone differently.

Best of luck to him. I wish he was coming back.

Gthoma2a
04-17-2014, 12:40 PM
Good luck to him. I knew it would happen, but I kind of don't feel like he has much of a Duke legacy (individual stats, sure, but not a lot of moments that I felt like our team was a championship caliber team, even with him, since the Vermont game). Rivers had the shot that kind of made me believe, but Jabari didn't have any of those moments for me.

I hope he goes to my Lakers so that I can cheer for him in the future (and that he wins something).

DevilWearsPrada
04-17-2014, 12:40 PM
I just saw the announcement on WRAL tv. Not surprising. The best to Jabari and his NBA career! He will represent Duke University very well!

grossbus
04-17-2014, 12:41 PM
"But...I just really wanted to see him play one more year as a Blue Devil. That would have been so amazing. Expecting this outcome and understanding why he made the decision that he did doesn't make the disappointment any less poignant or immediate. It may have been the right decision for him, but the intrinsically selfish part of me really, really wishes this could have gone differently."

my sentiments, exactly.

CarmenWallaceWade
04-17-2014, 12:42 PM
All the best, Jabari! Thanks for gracing us Duke fans with your talent and class for a year. NBA, lookout!!!

G man
04-17-2014, 12:46 PM
Like everyone else here I wish he would have stayed, but how can I begrudge another man the opportunity he has. I hope that he is able to make the most out of it!

jipops
04-17-2014, 12:46 PM
I do feel compelled...

For those here that guaranteed his return, what say you now?

PSurprise
04-17-2014, 12:47 PM
shucks.

Congratulations!

Kedsy
04-17-2014, 12:47 PM
I do feel compelled...

For those here that guaranteed his return, what say you now?

My recollection is there was only one who "guaranteed" his return. My guess is he won't be posting all that much in the near future.

jv001
04-17-2014, 12:50 PM
May God bless you Jabari. You will always be one of my favorite Duke players and I'm sure you'll make a great NBA player. GoDuke!

jipops
04-17-2014, 12:51 PM
My recollection is there was only one who "guaranteed" his return. My guess is he won't be posting all that much in the near future.

My recollection is there was one as well, just used "those" to be a little more pleasantly vague.

Lauderdevil
04-17-2014, 12:55 PM
Very classy article and interview in SI. He's a good young man, who handled this process about as well as possible. And as much as we all wanted him back, it was too much to ask. I hope he becomes a star in the NBA, and realizes all his professional and personal dreams.

And I hope the same for Rodney.

moonpie23
04-17-2014, 12:58 PM
thanks, jabari, for a great year......all the best to you!!

cato
04-17-2014, 12:59 PM
Very well written piece, Mr. Parker. Best of luck in all of your future endeavors -- including the NBA.

DBFAN
04-17-2014, 01:07 PM
All the best to him.Go lakers-lol.Come on down mr turner.I know,would be a dream,but still.

Didn't Turner already take us off his list. Or was that a bad source that Chad Ford had?

NashvilleDevil
04-17-2014, 01:07 PM
Didn't Turner already take us off his list. Or was that a bad source that Chad Ford had?

Bad source or some SMU guy making stuff up. Turner tweeted he has not narrowed his list.

gurufrisbee
04-17-2014, 01:10 PM
Not surprised.

Deeply disappointed.

Joins the list of Duke one-and-dones who I won't root for in the NBA because one-and-done is using the college and not truly being part of it (that's how I have always felt and still do - and I know most don't agree with me, but I'm fine with that).

GGLC
04-17-2014, 01:12 PM
Duke used to be the school that kept people around for longer than expected. :(

Atlanta Duke
04-17-2014, 01:12 PM
All the best - will look forward to seeing his game develop at the next level.

jipops
04-17-2014, 01:14 PM
Not surprised.

Deeply disappointed.

Joins the list of Duke one-and-dones who I won't root for in the NBA because one-and-done is using the college and not truly being part of it (that's how I have always felt and still do - and I know most don't agree with me, but I'm fine with that).

I don't follow this logic. We're not in his shoes, but if we were how could we accurately say we wouldn't make the same choice given the current system. Jabari's logic is very sound. In the perspective of a lifetime there is a small window in which to have an athletic career. Why not maximize that when it can be such an enormous asset? Would you judge Jabari differently, or root for him, if rules mandated he stay 2 years even though he would still be the same person?

brlftz
04-17-2014, 01:17 PM
Well handled overall, but I'm a little surprised by the statement that the nba is clearly where he has the best opportunity to develop off the court. Seems odd, and as someone who would love to be immersed in the environment at duke once again, I am struggling to figure out what that means.

flyingdutchdevil
04-17-2014, 01:18 PM
Congrats, Jabari! You made the best choice for yourself.

I will be cheering loudly for Jabari when he is a Celtic next year. Really looking forward to seeing him in person twice a week!

I honestly believe this was the best choice for Jabari, especially from a basketball perspective. College is great, Duke is the best, but the NBA just offers more.

Thanks Jabari, and I hope you get your degree.

El_Diablo
04-17-2014, 01:24 PM
None of our other recent departures waited until after the banquet, so there is nothing to base that assumption on. I like it when they don't wait, then the program can go on without an air of mystery taking away from the actual event.

I started typing a response before the thread closed, so I will just add this here.

It's true that Irving and Rivers both announced well before the banquet. But for other recent players who were considering the NBA this late:

In 2009, Henderson waited until after the banquet and announced that he was leaving.
In 2010, Singler announced that he was returning three days before the banquet.
In 2012, Mason Plumlee announced he was returning four days before the banquet.
In 2014, Jabari Parker waited until after the banquet and has now announced that he was leaving.

So I think it's reasonable to look at the banquet date as a sort of inflection point, at least for those who are on the fence this late in the process.

rsvman
04-17-2014, 01:26 PM
I hope he gives somebody at Duke the recipe for Jabari bars, at least.

I'd like to have the recipe right now. I'm gonna need to assuage my sorrows somehow, and I don't drink.



Best of luck to Jabari in the NBA.

JamminJoe
04-17-2014, 01:33 PM
Very impressive young man, and he represented the university with utmost class. Although this year's Duke team was not strong fundamentally, Jabari sure made it a fun year (except for the ending of course).

So, what are our chances with Turner?

gurufrisbee
04-17-2014, 01:33 PM
I don't follow this logic. We're not in his shoes, but if we were how could we accurately say we wouldn't make the same choice given the current system. Jabari's logic is very sound. In the perspective of a lifetime there is a small window in which to have an athletic career. Why not maximize that when it can be such an enormous asset? Would you judge Jabari differently, or root for him, if rules mandated he stay 2 years even though he would still be the same person?

It's a fair question. I don't know. All I know is what I feel. The guys who only stay one year feel like they used Duke and don't feel like Duke players in the NBA and I tend not to root for them. I will say it's also partly due to what they did in their one year. I know I don't nearly struggle to root for Luol like I do Irving or Rivers - but Duke had a much better run with Deng. I'm not arguing it's the right way to feel about it - but it is how I feel.

P.S. I also think he got the answer badly wrong to both of his big questions.

gumbomoop
04-17-2014, 01:36 PM
Well handled overall, but I'm a little surprised by the statement that the nba is clearly where he has the best opportunity to develop off the court. Seems odd, and as someone who would love to be immersed in the environment at duke once again, I am struggling to figure out what that means.

Agree re this slightly odd note. I assume he might have been referring to the common cliche that university isn't "the real world." The NBA sure isn't the real world. I couldn't blame a young person for accepting the cliche, though its applicability to the NBA is dubious.

FerryFor50
04-17-2014, 01:37 PM
Great statement by Jabari. Very well spoken young man. He will represent Duke very well in his professional endeavors.

InSpades
04-17-2014, 01:37 PM
Obviously wish him all the best. Great player, great kid, can't fault him for the decision.

I can't help but wonder what could have been though... his 1 season was great from an individual perspective but from a team perspective... one of the more disappointing seasons in recent memory. No ACC championship (regular or tournament), an average (for Duke) NCAA seed and another early flame out in the NCAAs. Does Jabari leave a Duke legacy? I don't really think so. Hopefully next year's Duke team does just that.

Best of luck in the NBA Mr. Parker, I'll be rooting for you, just not as much as my other Duke guys.

BlueTeuf
04-17-2014, 01:39 PM
Thank you, Jabari - for being a wonderful addition to our program. Good luck - and know you'll be missed (and followed).

Des Esseintes
04-17-2014, 01:43 PM
It's a fair question. I don't know. All I know is what I feel. The guys who only stay one year feel like they used Duke and don't feel like Duke players in the NBA and I tend not to root for them. I will say it's also partly due to what they did in their one year. I know I don't nearly struggle to root for Luol like I do Irving or Rivers - but Duke had a much better run with Deng. I'm not arguing it's the right way to feel about it - but it is how I feel.

P.S. I also think he got the answer badly wrong to both of his big questions.

I am not the son of an NBA player, nor have I been a basketball player at Duke University. Jabari *is* both of those things. So if he thinks he will develop more as a person and player in the NBA, I think I should trust him to know that answer best. I'm curious what experience or knowledge you bring to this discussion to say he is "badly wrong."

flyingdutchdevil
04-17-2014, 01:48 PM
P.S. I also think he got the answer badly wrong to both of his big questions.

I think it's very difficult to argue against the NBA as the best place to develop as a player, especially one where the organization will invest millions in (trainers, coaches, physical therapists, doctors, etc etc etc).

The second question is debatable, and I think it is player-to-player. Had I entered the working world at the age of 19, there is no way that I would have matured at my first job. College gave me the ability to develop as a person. But, again, it's person-to-person. And I'm not Jabari Parker.

Bay Area Duke Fan
04-17-2014, 01:50 PM
Well handled overall, but I'm a little surprised by the statement that the nba is clearly where he has the best opportunity to develop off the court. Seems odd, and as someone who would love to be immersed in the environment at duke once again, I am struggling to figure out what that means.

It's all about the money.

Good luck, Jabari.

duke79
04-17-2014, 01:53 PM
Like most others on this board, I'm not surprised by JP's decision. I would have been amazed if he had decided to come back for his sophomore year, given the sort of money and opportunity staring him in the face. I'm not enough of a basketball nerd to know how many potential high NBA picks have foresworn the NBA draft to come back to school. I'm thinking not too many in recent years. I wish him the best of luck. Stay healthy and get that Duke degree!!

Double DD
04-17-2014, 01:54 PM
Agree re this slightly odd note. I assume he might have been referring to the common cliche that university isn't "the real world." The NBA sure isn't the real world. I couldn't blame a young person for accepting the cliche, though its applicability to the NBA is dubious.

Well, the NBA will be his "real world" for the next (hopefully) 15 years. So that is the world and life that he has to adjust to.

SmartDevil
04-17-2014, 01:54 PM
Jabari's made his decision and it must be respected. Best of luck to him in the NBA. Hope he talks up Duke for years as he meets with success at the next level.

I also hope his decision brings him not just money but personal fulfilment and, yes, fun.

DBFAN
04-17-2014, 01:54 PM
Bad source or some SMU guy making stuff up. Turner tweeted he has not narrowed his list.

Heck that just made my day a little better

Des Esseintes
04-17-2014, 01:55 PM
agree completely; as with all these guys, money is the driving force. and who can hold that against them?

Humans?

fgb
04-17-2014, 01:56 PM
It's all about the money.

Good luck, Jabari.

agree completely; as with all these guys, money is the driving force. and who can hold that against them?

gus
04-17-2014, 01:58 PM
It's a fair question. I don't know. All I know is what I feel. The guys who only stay one year feel like they used Duke and don't feel like Duke players in the NBA and I tend not to root for them. I will say it's also partly due to what they did in their one year. I know I don't nearly struggle to root for Luol like I do Irving or Rivers - but Duke had a much better run with Deng. I'm not arguing it's the right way to feel about it - but it is how I feel.

P.S. I also think he got the answer badly wrong to both of his big questions.

I think we said the same things when Rivers declared. I'm not going to be a NBA Jabari fan, simply because I won't care. It's apathy not antipathy. I don't fault him at all for making this decision, but I just don't get that invested in one and done players. When I think about this season, I'm going to remember Dre, not Parker.

Edouble
04-17-2014, 02:01 PM
I am not the son of an NBA player, nor have I been a basketball player at Duke University. Jabari *is* both of those things. So if he thinks he will develop more as a person and player in the NBA, I think I should trust him to know that answer best. I'm curious what experience or knowledge you bring to this discussion to say he is "badly wrong."

While I am not crazy about the semantics of "badly wrong", I do agree with the spirit of their meaning. Was in the the NYTimes article that Shane Battier pretty much said that he was a fish out of water in an NBA locker room... an open-minded and well-rounded intellectual in a room full of tough guys of below average intelligence?

Jabari strikes me as a Shane Battier-type. An interesting, complex person that may not mesh well with stereotypical NBA players. I am also curious as to how anyone would develop more off the court in the NBA than at Duke. The NBA lifestyle, from hearing so many players talk about it, seems to be a never ending series of airplane trips and strip clubs. Hence, MCWill has places himself into a self-imposed cocoon, living with his dad, and putting his money into a nest egg for his post playing days, I think, to avoid the pitfalls that so many players fall into.

My only disappointment in all of this is how long it took for Jabari to declare. I never thought for a second that he would come back. That's just not the way things work these days. But I am still hoping we get Myles Turner, and we need Jabari to go ahead and clear out, I think, to have a shot.

flyingdutchdevil
04-17-2014, 02:01 PM
I think we said the same things when Rivers declared. I'm not going to be a NBA Jabari fan, simply because I won't care. It's apathy not antipathy. I don't fault him at all for making this decision, but I just don't get that invested in one and done players. When I think about this season, I'm going to remember Dre, not Parker.

I'm going to remember a ridiculously effective offense led by Jabari and Hood. Jabari with his insane coast-to-coasts and put-back dunks. Hood with his ability to carve up a zone at the top of key.

Unfortunately, I'm also going to remember how bad our defense was, from the 1 to the 5. :(

As to which one will win out in my memory, I'm not sure...

GGLC
04-17-2014, 02:06 PM
Obviously wish him all the best. Great player, great kid, can't fault him for the decision.

I can't help but wonder what could have been though... his 1 season was great from an individual perspective but from a team perspective... one of the more disappointing seasons in recent memory. No ACC championship (regular or tournament), an average (for Duke) NCAA seed and another early flame out in the NCAAs. Does Jabari leave a Duke legacy? I don't really think so. Hopefully next year's Duke team does just that.


We can always remember the way he stepped up huge in his final collegiate game.

...Sigh. At least Kyrie went out with a bang.

On that topic, I'm still a little bit amazed by Gerald Henderson not feeling the need to come back to erase the bad taste left by that final performance of his. Quick, without looking: how many shots did Gerald make and attempt in his last game? The answer may surprise you (unless it's burned into your brain like it is in mine).

Ltrey33
04-17-2014, 02:08 PM
I echo what many of you have said - he's a great kid and I hope he has a great career in the NBA. He'll represent Duke well.

The only thing that made me cringe in the article was this quote:

Which environment -- college or the NBA -- offers me the best opportunity to grow as a basketball player?
Which environment -- college or the NBA -- offers me the best opportunity to grow and develop off the court?
The answer to both questions is undeniably the NBA.

The "undeniably the NBA" answer is hurtful to me as a fan of Coach K, the Duke program and the University as a whole. Maybe the NBA does have the best opportunity for growth on the court given where Jabari is as a player, but I have a really hard time accepting the fact that the best chance to grow and develop off the court comes at some place other than Duke.

NashvilleDevil
04-17-2014, 02:09 PM
I think we said the same things when Rivers declared. I'm not going to be a NBA Jabari fan, simply because I won't care. It's apathy not antipathy. I don't fault him at all for making this decision, but I just don't get that invested in one and done players. When I think about this season, I'm going to remember Dre, not Parker.

I will remember Jabari's game at Cameron against Carolina when he found "it".

Bob Green
04-17-2014, 02:09 PM
Congratulations Jabari, I wish you Fair Winds and Following Seas in all future endeavors.

Duvall
04-17-2014, 02:10 PM
The "undeniably the NBA" answer is hurtful to me as a fan of Coach K, the Duke program and the University as a whole. Maybe the NBA does have the best opportunity for growth on the court given where Jabari is as a player, but I have a really hard time accepting the fact that the best chance to grow and develop off the court comes at some place other than Duke.

It's hurtful to you, personally? That's just bizarre. People are wired differently, and I don't know why you assume that you know Parker better than he knows himself.

Duvall
04-17-2014, 02:11 PM
On that topic, I'm still a little bit amazed by Gerald Henderson not feeling the need to come back to erase the bad taste left by that final performance of his. Quick, without looking: how many shots did Gerald make and attempt in his last game? The answer may surprise you (unless it's burned into your brain like it is in mine).

It's almost like these players value their own personal and professional development over protecting the memories that may or may not be burned into your brain.

GGLC
04-17-2014, 02:11 PM
I will remember Jabari's game at Cameron against Carolina when he found "it".

I was riding an elephant in India at the time. Sometime I should really go back and watch the highlights of that game, one of the few in the latter half of the season where Duke was really roaring on both cylinders.

InSpades
04-17-2014, 02:16 PM
I echo what many of you have said - he's a great kid and I hope he has a great career in the NBA. He'll represent Duke well.

The only thing that made me cringe in the article was this quote:

Which environment -- college or the NBA -- offers me the best opportunity to grow as a basketball player?
Which environment -- college or the NBA -- offers me the best opportunity to grow and develop off the court?
The answer to both questions is undeniably the NBA.

The "undeniably the NBA" answer is hurtful to me as a fan of Coach K, the Duke program and the University as a whole. Maybe the NBA does have the best opportunity for growth on the court given where Jabari is as a player, but I have a really hard time accepting the fact that the best chance to grow and develop off the court comes at some place other than Duke.

I wouldn't call it "hurtful", I would call it "wrong". As a Duke grad I think I can pretty safely say that the proportion of people who spend 4 years at Duke go on to do better things in life than the proportion of people who jump to the NBA. Every individual is different obviously but without having anything else to base our results on... I'd say staying at Duke 4 years is a good place to grow and develop off the court.

I'd also add that the men who spend 4 years at Duke and then go on to the NBA are an extra special bunch.

pfrduke
04-17-2014, 02:16 PM
On that topic, I'm still a little bit amazed by Gerald Henderson not feeling the need to come back to erase the bad taste left by that final performance of his. Quick, without looking: how many shots did Gerald make and attempt in his last game? The answer may surprise you (unless it's burned into your brain like it is in mine).

I don't remember exactly, but my vague recollection was somewhere in the neighborhood of 2-16.

CameronBornAndBred
04-17-2014, 02:16 PM
I don't fault him at all, I just hate the waiting game. It is clear from the well written words in the article and the polished video that goes with it that he made his mind up some time ago. It must have driven Benedict crazy keeping the secret too.

Best of luck to him.

Billy Dat
04-17-2014, 02:17 PM
Ah, another Duke supernova comes and goes....Maggette, Deng, Irving, Rivers, Parker...in some ways, because of his injury, its feels right to add Brand to this group, and likely Hood since he will be Duke one-and-done. I some ways, Irving + Brand/2 basically equals one and done for both.

Still, Jabari set a high mark - consensus first team All-American, National Player of the Year finalist, baker of Mendl's-caliber confectionery delights...another link in the Chicago -> Duke Basketball chain that includes such luminaries as K himself, Sean Dockery, Jahlil Okafor and CDu...

We'll miss you big guy, give 'em hell in the L.

Emerrick
04-17-2014, 02:21 PM
Damn... my week just got considerably worse... Luckily, I was prepared for a ****** ending and had my tissue box standing by.

Oh well, best of luck to the kid. He was fun to watch and it was equally fun to day-dream about what might have been (kinda like day-dreaming about winning the lottery I guess).

grad_devil
04-17-2014, 02:21 PM
..another link in the Chicago -> Duke Basketball chain that includes such luminaries as K himself, Sean Dockery, Jahlil Okafor and CDu...


I believe Duhon was from Louisiana - Perhaps you mean Scheyer or Dockery? I believe both are from the Chicago area.

Des Esseintes
04-17-2014, 02:22 PM
While I am not crazy about the semantics of "badly wrong", I do agree with the spirit of their meaning. Was in the the NYTimes article that Shane Battier pretty much said that he was a fish out of water in an NBA locker room... an open-minded and well-rounded intellectual in a room full of tough guys of below average intelligence?

Jabari strikes me as a Shane Battier-type. An interesting, complex person that may not mesh well with stereotypical NBA players. I am also curious as to how anyone can develop more off the court in the NBA than at Duke. The NBA lifestyle, from hearing so many players talk about it, seems to be a never ending series of airplane trips and strip clubs. Hence, MCWill has places himself into a self-imposed cocoon, living with his dad, and putting his money into a nest egg for his post playing days, I think, to avoid the pitfalls that so many players fall into.

Again, the dude is a son of an NBA player. I think we are engaging in absolute fantasy if we think we know more about how the next few years will go than he does. Everyone here wants to believe Duke is a special place. And it is! But it's intellectually lazy for us to assume nowhere else is special, and nobody grows anywhere else. I also see no reason to assume an NBA locker room is mostly guys of below-average intelligence. Being physically gifted does not mean a decreased likelihood of being mentally gifted. To say otherwise is a dangerous and insulting chauvinism.

dukepsy1963
04-17-2014, 02:25 PM
I would have taken millions too, but the system is wrong. Money rules all and education means nothing really. K should take the lead on changing the one-and-done situation. Instead, he seems to buy into it. He certainly doesn't take a part in questioning it! That takes guts and conviction. Frankly, as many have said, I think we could have good if not great teams without McDonalds players. Just kids who are good and play as a team. Look at Stanford, Harvard, and Wisconsin, for example. The NBA needs to be put in their place. K and Duke needs to rethink its basketball program.

Greed wins again....education the loser.
Sorry, I just had to vent on this sorry situation.

Trinity, '63
Huge Duke Basketball Fan
Retired prof who is disgusted by one-and-done

Duvall
04-17-2014, 02:28 PM
I would have taken millions too, but the system is wrong. Money rules all and education means nothing really.

Parker isn't ending his education, only his career as an amateur basketball player.


That makes it official -- my days as a Duke basketball player are over.
But my days as a Duke student are not. I intend to graduate from Duke while I'm in the NBA.

GGLC
04-17-2014, 02:28 PM
It's almost like these players value their own personal and professional development over protecting the memories that may or may not be burned into your brain.

I think this pretty badly mischaracterizes the thrust of my comment, but thanks for the snark.

I would hope and expect that Gerald Henderson would not have personally been happy or satisfied with his performance in his final game, and I could see him not wanting that to be his final collegiate statline. I could see a game like that be a motivator to return for a player who is weighing whether or not to leave early. I could see a game like that stoking a player's competitive fires. I could see a player wanting to prove something by coming back. I could also see a game like that being an indication to a player that he still has some development to do at the collegiate level.

For someone like Gerald who was a fringe lottery selection, I'm simply surprised that he didn't seem to care about any of that. It's tautological to say that someone left early because they valued their own personal and professional development. He could have valued his own personal and professional development and stayed in school for another season as a result.

Duvall
04-17-2014, 02:29 PM
I wouldn't call it "hurtful", I would call it "wrong". As a Duke grad I think I can pretty safely say that the proportion of people who spend 4 years at Duke go on to do better things in life than the proportion of people who jump to the NBA.

Well, maybe. I know a lot of people that spent four years at Duke, and I'm not sure how many of them have done better things than, say, Luol Deng. (http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2014/04/cleveland_cavaliers_forward_lu_3.html)

MaxAMillion
04-17-2014, 02:29 PM
Good for Jabari...I would have done the same thing if I were him. I certainly wouldn't worry about some fans who don't consider worth cheering for unless you do what they want when they want it.

Time to start the clock on your millions...hope you enjoy every minute.

dukepsy1963
04-17-2014, 02:33 PM
As most have predicted. I'm sure he's even more happy to have this process over with. This kid is going to be a great representative of Duke University.

I hope that he is not considered a representative of Duke. He is a great kid and very talented, but all he really did was take advantage of the Duke coaches. One and done does that everywhere. I wish he had stayed a few more years, if not graduated, then I would consider him a fine representative of Duke. As it stands.....nope.

Gthoma2a
04-17-2014, 02:36 PM
I'm going to remember a ridiculously effective offense led by Jabari and Hood. Jabari with his insane coast-to-coasts and put-back dunks. Hood with his ability to carve up a zone at the top of key.

Unfortunately, I'm also going to remember how bad our defense was, from the 1 to the 5. :(

As to which one will win out in my memory, I'm not sure...

It may sound bad, but when I see Mercer, I will forever think of Jabari and Rodney. This year was 2012, without the shot. Some good wins, lots of losses where we looked weak, and a team that went out with a whimper (only this time, there wasn't a single NBA player on the opposing side).

DukeFanSince1990
04-17-2014, 02:37 PM
Good for him. Glad we had him for the year we did.

As a side note, voodoo rituals seem to have no affect on the decisions of college basketball players.

Billy Dat
04-17-2014, 02:38 PM
I believe Duhon was from Louisiana - Perhaps you mean Scheyer or Dockery? I believe both are from the Chicago area.

I meant DBR's resident Bulls fan, CDu. Neglecting to mention Scheyer and Collins were big misses, perhaps I was filtering out anyone who might have been a classmate of Lucas Bly, Gary and Wyatt, John Bender, Jake Ryan, Conrad Jarrett or Andie Walsh.

InSpades
04-17-2014, 02:42 PM
Well, maybe. I know a lot of people that spent four years at Duke, and I'm not sure how many of them have done better things than, say, Luol Deng. (http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2014/04/cleveland_cavaliers_forward_lu_3.html)

Would you really want to compare the average Duke grad vs. the average NBA one-and-done guy? Picking out single examples is pretty easy. I'm sure I can pick out a 4-year Duke grad who did amazing things. There's a lot of great guys in the NBA who do a lot for their community, there's also a lot who get arrested and make ridiculously bad life choices.

Bay Area Duke Fan
04-17-2014, 02:44 PM
I believe Duhon was from Louisiana - Perhaps you mean Scheyer or Dockery? I believe both are from the Chicago area.

Also, Chris Collins.

Gthoma2a
04-17-2014, 02:45 PM
Good for him. Glad we had him for the year we did.

As a side note, voodoo rituals seem to have no affect on the decisions of college basketball players.

That poor chicken...

flyingdutchdevil
04-17-2014, 02:47 PM
I would have taken millions too, but the system is wrong. Money rules all and education means nothing really. K should take the lead on changing the one-and-done situation. Instead, he seems to buy into it. He certainly doesn't take a part in questioning it! That takes guts and conviction. Frankly, as many have said, I think we could have good if not great teams without McDonalds players. Just kids who are good and play as a team. Look at Stanford, Harvard, and Wisconsin, for example. The NBA needs to be put in their place. K and Duke needs to rethink its basketball program.

Greed wins again....education the loser.
Sorry, I just had to vent on this sorry situation.

Trinity, '63
Huge Duke Basketball Fan
Retired prof who is disgusted by one-and-done

I understand your sentiment, and I'm sure a lot agree with you. I'd rather not have one-and-dones, but the system absolutely enables college programs to do is.

Also, I think you're giving Harvard, Stanford, and Wisconsin too much basketball credit. These are good, but not great, programs. Duke is a great program. Unfortunately, that means we need to engage in amazing talent to keep us this way. And that means dipping our toe into one-and-done.

CDu
04-17-2014, 02:47 PM
I believe Duhon was from Louisiana - Perhaps you mean Scheyer or Dockery? I believe both are from the Chicago area.

Yeah, Duhon played for a while in Chicago with the Bulls, but he was from Louisiana. Dockery was from Chicago, Scheyer was from the northern suburbs (same suburb as Collins).

Duke3517
04-17-2014, 02:49 PM
Good luck to him but also great news for Duke. Lets continue to move forward with players who are committed to being here.

GGLC
04-17-2014, 02:52 PM
I don't remember exactly, but my vague recollection was somewhere in the neighborhood of 2-16.

Close. 1-14. (eek)

Duvall
04-17-2014, 02:52 PM
Would you really want to compare the average Duke grad vs. the average NBA one-and-done guy? Picking out single examples is pretty easy. I'm sure I can pick out a 4-year Duke grad who did amazing things. There's a lot of great guys in the NBA who do a lot for their community, there's also a lot who get arrested and make ridiculously bad life choices.

For the same age cohort? Yeah, I probably would. Granted that it's a lot easier to be a philanthropist when you have million-dollar contracts waiting for you. But that doesn't exactly cut *against* Parker's decision.

CameronBornAndBred
04-17-2014, 02:56 PM
Good luck to him but also great news for Duke. Lets continue to move forward with players who are committed to being here.
You know we will be having the same draft vigils next year, but with Okafor and Jones, so don't get your hopes up. In fact, you can take every single sentiment that was said in Jabari's draft vigil in the last three weeks, write them down, and read the same words in a year from now. ("He has to go, the money calls", "He loves Duke, he will stay", "I wish we didn't have the one and done system", "his family is rich/poor, which is why he needs to stay/go", and of course "K knows what is best, they will both look at his options and make the decision, and whichever that decision is, it is the right one".)

dukebluesincebirth
04-17-2014, 03:00 PM
As a long time college bball fan, these types of situations continue to leave bitter tastes in my mouth...to put it bluntly, this era of college bball sucks. I'll always root for Duke with all my heart, but it's getting harder and harder for me to be passionate about it. No other choice but to accept reality: this sucks and it won't change unless nba execs are convinced that changing will make more money. Good luck to Jabari, can't blame the kids. Unfortunately, my strongest lasting memory will be mercer.

Billy Dat
04-17-2014, 03:04 PM
Woj says Rodney's gone, too. No surprise, guess he needs his own thread:

Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@WojYahooNBA 10m
Yahoo Sources: Duke's Rodney Hood will enter the NBA Draft, close to signing with an agent. http://yhoo.it/1jO7xvs
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/duke-s-rodney-hood-to-enter-nba-draft-184848759.html

mkirsh
04-17-2014, 03:09 PM
I hope that he is not considered a representative of Duke. He is a great kid and very talented, but all he really did was take advantage of the Duke coaches. One and done does that everywhere. I wish he had stayed a few more years, if not graduated, then I would consider him a fine representative of Duke. As it stands.....nope.

How does his leaving take advantage of the Duke coaches? When they recruited him they knew he was very likely one and done, and they were the ones that asked him to come to Duke. Unless he misled them somehow then each side got what it wanted/expected from the other (not that I believe they would even view it this way) -- Jabari made Duke a better team this year, and Duke provided Jabari a year of education, player development, and a platform to pursue his dream to the NBA. I could just as easily argue that if the coaches convinced him to stay they could be accused of taking advantage of him (like we all say about Coach Williams down the road with Barnes, Davis, Hansbrough, etc) but that's not fair either.

Also keep in mind perspective. We are all long-time or even life-long Duke fans, so of course if we were in the same situation the pull to play another year for Duke would be really strong for any of us. Jabari has been a life-long NBA fan, growing up in a pro-sports town, and only chose to come to Duke last year. Although it sounds like he really enjoyed and valued his time at Duke, I can see how it would be hard to defer his life-long dream for another year of playing against what is frankly inferior competition.

Best of luck to JP in the NBA, and thanks for your time at Duke.

Des Esseintes
04-17-2014, 03:09 PM
For the same age cohort? Yeah, I probably would. Granted that it's a lot easier to be a philanthropist when you have million-dollar contracts waiting for you. But that doesn't exactly cut *against* Parker's decision.
No, you're totally wrong. The NBA guys who sometimes go to strip clubs are wasting their lives and their minds. Whereas the Wall Street dudes who attended four years of college with me and sometimes go to strip clubs are doing really valuable, society-building things. In fact, just think how much worse we'd all be if the Wall Street dudes from Duke and the Ivies had spent the last twenty years playing basketball instead of adding such great innovations to human history as credit default swaps and high-frequency trading.

Edouble
04-17-2014, 03:10 PM
Again, the dude is a son of an NBA player. I think we are engaging in absolute fantasy if we think we know more about how the next few years will go than he does. Everyone here wants to believe Duke is a special place. And it is! But it's intellectually lazy for us to assume nowhere else is special, and nobody grows anywhere else. I also see no reason to assume an NBA locker room is mostly guys of below-average intelligence. Being physically gifted does not mean a decreased likelihood of being mentally gifted. To say otherwise is a dangerous and insulting chauvinism.

Again, I made it clear that I was paraphrasing something that Shane Battier said. Please note that I am referencing a source.

With regard to Sonny Parker: I think it's reasonable to question how transferable the experience of playing in the NBA from 1976 to 1982 is to playing in today's NBA. In fact, I would venture to say that Coach K, with a stable of players in the league and connections via USA Basketball to many of the league's top stars, would know much more about life in the NBA than Sonny Parker. A person that would know a lot about what it is like to have an NBA career would be Shane Battier, who, again, does not give the impression that the league is the kind of place for personal growth that Duke is!

SoCalDukeFan
04-17-2014, 03:11 PM
I understand your sentiment, and I'm sure a lot agree with you. I'd rather not have one-and-dones, but the system absolutely enables college programs to do is.

Also, I think you're giving Harvard, Stanford, and Wisconsin too much basketball credit. These are good, but not great, programs. Duke is a great program. Unfortunately, that means we need to engage in amazing talent to keep us this way. And that means dipping our toe into one-and-done.

UConn, Wisconsin and Florida were 3 of the Final Four teams and none of them has had a one and done or even early entry player this year, at least announced so far.

The best team generally wins championships, not the collection of best players. I know you can not predict who will be a one and done and some this year are surprising to me and some may regret it. However I would rather that we stop recruiting the pretty obvious 1 and dones and get back to building teams that win championships. Coach K restructured the offense around Hood and Parker and in my opinion confused the roles of Rasheed and Cook. The offense needs to change completely again for next year feature Okafor, who will leaver after one year.

I liked it better when K talked about guys not unpacking their bags rather than what an honor it was to coach them for a year.

SoCal

Here is a Turtle
04-17-2014, 03:12 PM
Jabari was enjoyable to watch. Can't fault him for leaving when you stand to make millions. If the current system says you can go, you might as well go. Wish him the best of luck.

CDu
04-17-2014, 03:13 PM
I meant DBR's resident Bulls fan, CDu. Neglecting to mention Scheyer and Collins were big misses, perhaps I was filtering out anyone who might have been a classmate of Lucas Bly, Gary and Wyatt, John Bender, Jake Ryan, Conrad Jarrett or Andie Walsh.

Whoops, my bad! Totally didn't see who originally said "CDu." I would have definitely known you'd know where the real CDu was from! Maybe I should check the name of the posters before posting...

I think the omissions of Scheyer and Collins are okay. A Chicago kid won't think of Northbrook as Chicago. For us outsiders, though, I guess it counts.

MCFinARL
04-17-2014, 03:15 PM
Well handled overall, but I'm a little surprised by the statement that the nba is clearly where he has the best opportunity to develop off the court. Seems odd, and as someone who would love to be immersed in the environment at duke once again, I am struggling to figure out what that means.

Many interesting comments on the thread about this statement, which--from the perspective of the mostly college-educated and often Duke-educated members of this board--seems counterintuitive. There is one way, though, that this could make a lot of sense. Admittedly, the NBA isn't exactly the "real world," as somebody already noted. But it is not the sheltered world of a Duke basketball player either, with required study halls, strict daily schedules (not that there isn't some of that in the NBA), and a lot of help available for any kind of issue or decision. Maybe Jabari, who seems to be fairly mature, is eager to take more responsibility for himself and his own decisions than he can easily do in the college environment. In that way, the NBA would be a better opportunity for personal growth. Certainly, as a religious young man with strong principles, he will have plenty of opportunities to strengthen his ability to resist temptation, if nothing else. And because he plans to continue his education at Duke, he may not feel that he is forfeiting all of the opportunities for personal growth that Duke represents.


I hope that he is not considered a representative of Duke. He is a great kid and very talented, but all he really did was take advantage of the Duke coaches. One and done does that everywhere. I wish he had stayed a few more years, if not graduated, then I would consider him a fine representative of Duke. As it stands.....nope.

I know I am unlikely to change your mind, which seems pretty set here. But I think this is not fair to Jabari at all. The Duke coaches knew going in that Jabari was likely to leave after one year or at most two, and they were willing to take that risk. So I doubt they feel they were taken advantage of. And Jabari clearly enjoyed participating fully in the academic side of Duke as well as in basketball; he has always said he wants to get a college degree, and in his statement he repeated that he plans to graduate from Duke, taking classes as he can while in the NBA. If he does that, will that turn him into a "fine representative" in your eyes, even though he played only one year of basketball?

Granted, there is a lot about the current system that stinks from a fan's perspective, and personally I would be much happier if basketball had a system like baseball, where players could elect to go straight from high school into the pros at some level or go to college for at least three years. But that isn't the system, and I don't think it's right to argue that a kid who comes to Duke for a year and then decides to leave for the NBA is necessarily not worthy of representing Duke. He chose Duke for that year, and Duke chose him. So he is a representative of Duke, whether we like it or not, and I think he will be a very good one.

sagegrouse
04-17-2014, 03:17 PM
Jabari was recruited as a OAD. He ended up as a OAD. It was still an emotional departure for most of us. Sic transit gloria basketballi.

jipops
04-17-2014, 03:27 PM
I am not the son of an NBA player, nor have I been a basketball player at Duke University. Jabari *is* both of those things. So if he thinks he will develop more as a person and player in the NBA, I think I should trust him to know that answer best. I'm curious what experience or knowledge you bring to this discussion to say he is "badly wrong."

I think Kendall Marshall and Danny Green could even make good arguments that they even developed better as players in the D league than in college. This is not meant to be a knock on UNC, just that these guys could devote almost all their attention on the development of their games. There was not a mandatory limitation on time to do it, nor is there in the NBA of course. In this sense Jabari may be far from being "badly wrong".

camion
04-17-2014, 03:29 PM
I wish Jabari the best in his pursuit of his dream. He's a great kid and I expect him to do well.



I just wish that he had asked himself the third, and in my mind, most important question: "What would make Camion happier?"

For some reason no one ever considers that when deciding these things. :(

johnb
04-17-2014, 03:34 PM
If I were one of the greatest at what I do, and there were an opportunity to compete at the very highest level, I think I'd want to give it a shot. While it pains me to say it, another year would be remediating from a basketball point of view. Nobody at Texas complains when their golfer goes pro and finishes second at the Masters. And obviously nobody complains about baseball and hockey players who go pro with minimal chance of making the major leagues of their sport. If we're lucky, we'll get a Jabari every year; he's not the reason we flamed out. And yeah, final four teams tend to have a bunch of seniors, but they tend to be different teams year in and year out; I think we'd be really be bummed if we were final four favorites only every 3-4 years.

By the way, I'd imagine that NBA/NFL locker rooms are kinda testosterone fueled. Not that the guys would be necessarily unintelligent or thoughtless, but these are pro athletes we're talking about. And while Shane might have been a bit out of water, he wouldn't be famous for being an intellectual if he'd gone into a more typical Duke profession--in those, he'd be seen as really tall and a strong leader, but probably not seen as the second coming of Walter Benjamin or Isaiah Berlin or somebody....

CDu
04-17-2014, 03:37 PM
I think Kendall Marshall and Danny Green could even make good arguments that they even developed better as players in the D league than in college. This is not meant to be a knock on UNC, just that these guys could devote almost all their attention on the development of their games. There was not a mandatory limitation on time to do it, nor is there in the NBA of course. In this sense Jabari may be far from being "badly wrong".

Yeah, I would absolutely agree with the sentiment that you'll improve your game more at the NBA level than in college. The quality of competition is better and the amount of time spent devoted to basketball is greater.

The comment about growing off the court is much harder to measure. Some people grow more in the "real world" than in college. I sure did. Some people gain a lot from their college experiences. I sure did. Who's to say which venue provides the most opportunity for growth? Seems like each path offers opportunity for growth - just maybe differences in experiences.

I think sage summed it up though with the comment: "Jabari was recruited as a OAD. He ended up as a OAD." To have expected anything beyond one year was, as many have said all along, expecting too much.

Hopefully the coaching staff will continue to learn to adapt and have better team success with the one-and-dones. It appears that Coach K hasn't quite gotten the hang of it just yet. Next year's class is going to be as good a class as we're likely to get in Coach K's remaining years, so I hope he's a quick study.

jipops
04-17-2014, 03:38 PM
I hope that he is not considered a representative of Duke. He is a great kid and very talented, but all he really did was take advantage of the Duke coaches. One and done does that everywhere. I wish he had stayed a few more years, if not graduated, then I would consider him a fine representative of Duke. As it stands.....nope.

You have to be awfully naive not to have thought that Jabari wasn't going to be here for just one year. If you were indeed not that naive, then I guess you must have thought lesser of Jabari the entire season based on your logic? Or did you just decide this today as his decision has become official? It would also be extremely naive to even assume that every kid who is a one-and-done is exactly the same person.

And to suggest that he was merely here to take advantage of Duke coaches... Are you suggesting that the Duke coaches were in no way recruiting him to take advantage of his talents? C'mon man.

The kid has potential to be an excellent representative of Duke because of the way he carries himself. This has nothing to do with if he's been at Duke for 1 year or 4 years, that doesn't matter. He invested himself in Duke for the year he was here, and all accounts I've seen are that rang true academically as well. He's a Duke guy, I'm betting K will tell anybody that quite plainly.

I think you're confusing your own sour grapes with a kid who has chosen an understandable path to make his life even better. Who else does he actually owe something to and what would it be?

Kedsy
04-17-2014, 03:45 PM
There is a disconnect in college sports. But I think it comes from us fans, rather than from the players, the coaches, or "the system."

In pro sports, we root for our teams to win, and thus we want them to get the best players, however they do it. Although not really, because unless you're a New York Yankees fan, you probably aren't in favor of just "buying" the best team -- where's the fun and challenge in that?

College is different from the pros, though, because we're rooting for our school, not some collection of professionals. Or it would be different if the teams were composed of people who came to school to be students, rather than athletes, as it was when intercollegiate athletics began. Or even if they came from the region around the school, like it was in the old days. Or even to some extent if the coaches had to scour the country to find unpolished gems, as would generally happen in the not-too-distant past. But now, with almost all schools participating to some extent in national recruiting, and with what's essentially a whole industry centered around recruiting information, what makes Duke basketball players "belong" to Duke? Seems to me it's no more or less than the fact that the players wanted to play at Duke, or at least agreed to do so after hearing impassioned pleas from the coaching staff.

If a college basketball team fails to gather the best available talent, the fans complain that the coaches aren't recruiting well enough. We heard it here at DBR during the "dark" recruiting days of 2006 to 2009, when all we did was pull in 7 top 20 guys (plus three more top 30 guys) in four years -- but only one top ten guy and people were lamenting how Coach K had lost it on the recruiting trail. Here in Philadelphia, Temple fans are talking about dumping Fran Dunphy because he doesn't recruit well enough -- they're going on about a different level of recruiting, but it's the same song we've heard around here.

And as long as this is the case, we're not talking about students playing sports, we're talking about athletes who are going to school.

Better coaches/recruiters can convince better players to play for them, and if they don't the fans and boosters will call for their dismissal. In that environment, you get the players for as long as they wish to play for your team. To suggest otherwise -- unless you have honestly never been even a little upset if your team wasn't as talented as you wanted it to be -- is a fairly high form of hypocrisy. As fans it's more fun if you can watch a kid play for four years and see him grow and blossom, blah, blah, blah, but if you insist on having the best possible team, well then sorry, you get what you get.

GGLC
04-17-2014, 03:47 PM
You have to be awfully naive not to have thought that Jabari wasn't going to be here for just one year. If you were indeed not that naive, then I guess you must have thought lesser of Jabari the entire season based on your logic? Or did you just decide this today as his decision has become official? It would also be extremely naive to even assume that every kid who is a one-and-done is exactly the same person.

And to suggest that he was merely here to take advantage of Duke coaches... Are you suggesting that the Duke coaches were in no way recruiting him to take advantage of his talents? C'mon man.

The kid has potential to be an excellent representative of Duke because of the way he carries himself. This has nothing to do with if he's been at Duke for 1 year or 4 years, that doesn't matter. He invested himself in Duke for the year he was here, and all accounts I've seen are that rang true academically as well. He's a Duke guy, I'm betting K will tell anybody that quite plainly.

I think you're confusing your own sour grapes with a kid who has chosen an understandable path to make his life even better. Who else does he actually owe something to and what would it be?

To be extremely pedantic, sour grapes would be if dukepsy1963 reacted to Jabari declaring by saying, "That's fine, we don't need him anyway. We'll be a better team without him."

Just to be clear. ;)

duke79
04-17-2014, 03:47 PM
No, you're totally wrong. The NBA guys who sometimes go to strip clubs are wasting their lives and their minds. Whereas the Wall Street dudes who attended four years of college with me and sometimes go to strip clubs are doing really valuable, society-building things. In fact, just think how much worse we'd all be if the Wall Street dudes from Duke and the Ivies had spent the last twenty years playing basketball instead of adding such great innovations to human history as credit default swaps and high-frequency trading.
LOL. So true. I remember when the Duke alumni magazine, back in 2009 or 2010, had a somewhat laudatory cover story on the various Duke grads who were in the top echelons (or at the very top) of the major investment banks - Bear Stearns, Lehman Bros., Goldman, etc. - during the time that these firms were at least partly responsible for the financial meltdown that did tremendous damage around the world (and from which we have not fully recovered). I was thinking at the time - I'm not sure this is something the university should really be bragging about, in my opinion.

InSpades
04-17-2014, 03:49 PM
For the same age cohort? Yeah, I probably would. Granted that it's a lot easier to be a philanthropist when you have million-dollar contracts waiting for you. But that doesn't exactly cut *against* Parker's decision.

If his only goal was philanthropy then yes, getting the most money he could would be the #1 priority. He said developing off the field... you will *never* convince me that the NBA will develop people better than college (and certainly not a prestigious university such as Duke). Isn't that why people go to college? To develop? The NBA will certainly develop him on the court, off the court... they could probably care less. I'm sure he will develop just fine anyway... he seems like a great kid, but being among some of the most intelligent like-minded peers he could find would certainly only help that.

jipops
04-17-2014, 03:58 PM
To be extremely pedantic, sour grapes would be if dukepsy1963 reacted to Jabari declaring by saying, "That's fine, we don't need him anyway. We'll be a better team without him."

Just to be clear. ;)

I felt I was already being punctilious.:D

rsvman
04-17-2014, 04:08 PM
..... It's tautological to say that someone left early because they valued their own personal and professional development. He could have valued his own personal and professional development and stayed in school for another season as a result.

That word doesn't mean what you think it means. You know, since we're being punctilious.

Edouble
04-17-2014, 04:13 PM
I hope that he is not considered a representative of Duke. He is a great kid and very talented, but all he really did was take advantage of the Duke coaches. One and done does that everywhere. I wish he had stayed a few more years, if not graduated, then I would consider him a fine representative of Duke. As it stands.....nope.

LOL, I wish he had taken a bit more advantage of the Duke coaches when they were teaching defense!

Looks like his plan is to graduate though. I hope you make your peace with him at that point.

Des Esseintes
04-17-2014, 04:13 PM
If his only goal was philanthropy then yes, getting the most money he could would be the #1 priority. He said developing off the field... you will *never* convince me that the NBA will develop people better than college (and certainly not a prestigious university such as Duke). Isn't that why people go to college? To develop? The NBA will certainly develop him on the court, off the court... they could probably care less. I'm sure he will develop just fine anyway... he seems like a great kid, but being among some of the most intelligent like-minded peers he could find would certainly only help that.
That's cute. Pretty much all of the people I knew went to college to make possible the careers and success they sought. That was as true of the English majors as the Econ folks. Is Harvard's acceptance rate under 5% these days because people are so excited to "develop" there? I rather suspect they are excited to learn from the best teachers in their disciplines, and then go on to flourishing careers.

Developing is something you are supposed to do your whole life, not just for four years of irresponsibility.

MCFinARL
04-17-2014, 04:14 PM
That word doesn't mean what you think it means. You know, since we're being punctilious.

In related news, there was a story on NBC Nightly News yesterday about how part of the reform of the SAT will be to stop testing people on all those big bad "SAT words" and make the test more reflective of what high school and college students really do and know. :D

GGLC
04-17-2014, 04:15 PM
That word doesn't mean what you think it means. You know, since we're being punctilious.

Yes, it does, albeit somewhat idiosyncratically -- it's tautological in the sense of begging the question. To say that a player deciding to leave early is "valuing their own personal and professional development" is meaningless in an A=A sort of way, because by definition they would equally be "valuing their own personal and professional development" by deciding to stay. No matter what decision they make, they presumably do it because they value their own personal and professional development and feel that such development is helped by their decision. It's like stating that humans are rational actors because they can be counted to act in their own self-interest, and then framing any given action as a rational one because if it hadn't been in that person's self-interest, they wouldn't have acted that way.

...But that particular discussion is better suited for the old public policy board. :)

Edouble
04-17-2014, 04:19 PM
If his only goal was philanthropy then yes, getting the most money he could would be the #1 priority. He said developing off the field... you will *never* convince me that the NBA will develop people better than college (and certainly not a prestigious university such as Duke). Isn't that why people go to college? To develop? The NBA will certainly develop him on the court, off the court... they could probably care less. I'm sure he will develop just fine anyway... he seems like a great kid, but being among some of the most intelligent like-minded peers he could find would certainly only help that.

The beauty of college is actually being around some people that are not like-minded. That's often how you broaden your own horizons. Glad to hear the NBA could care less. At least they are not at the absolute minimal level of caring.

However, I agree that as a 19-year-old, spending time as a student at a world-reknowned research institution is a better way to develop complexity and character than playing in the NBA. It's true that he'll be afforded more time to develop "on the court" as a pro. That's time that he would have had to develop as a person if he were still in the Ivory Towers.

InSpades
04-17-2014, 04:29 PM
That's cute. Pretty much all of the people I knew went to college to make possible the careers and success they sought. That was as true of the English majors as the Econ folks. Is Harvard's acceptance rate under 5% these days because people are so excited to "develop" there? I rather suspect they are excited to learn from the best teachers in their disciplines, and then go on to flourishing careers.

Developing is something you are supposed to do your whole life, not just for four years of irresponsibility.

It's cute that you think telling me that my post was cute is an insult.

Learning is a part of developing. If your college years were "four years of irresponsibility" then that was your problem. Most of the people I went to Duke with took their time there pretty seriously. Yes, people want to go to Harvard for many reasons. Some of them for development, some of them because they know that Harvard degree will open doors for them, some of them for altogether different reasons.


Glad to hear the NBA could care less. At least they are not at the absolute minimal level of caring.


I'm glad this is what you took from my post...

Edouble
04-17-2014, 04:31 PM
That's cute. Pretty much all of the people I knew went to college to make possible the careers and success they sought. That was as true of the English majors as the Econ folks. Is Harvard's acceptance rate under 5% these days because people are so excited to "develop" there? I rather suspect they are excited to learn from the best teachers in their disciplines, and then go on to flourishing careers.

Developing is something you are supposed to do your whole life, not just for four years of irresponsibility.

These are not mutually exclusive goals... preparing for a life's work, and developing a greater world view alongside personal growth. In fact, they go together hand in hand, thus the beauty of the university setting! Pretty much all of the people I know that were lucky enough to have a college education, and all of the people I knew at Duke, were there for both.

Yes, we develop over the course of a lifetime. But we also go through developmental stages, one of which is quite accelerated during the age that most students attend college (glad I took Developmental Psych at Duke!). The rate of personal development between the years say 38 and 42, is pretty different than rate between 18 and 22. Barring a catastrophic or unusual life-changing event, I would be surprised to find anyone who didn't experience a more profound change to their outlook on the world in the more tender years of late adolescence and young adulthood.

Owen Meany
04-17-2014, 04:33 PM
Jabari Parker had an unbelievable year. He was widely recognized as the second best player in the nation as a freshmen. He led his team in points, rebounds and blocks. When his shot stopped falling and Duke desperately needed an inside presence, he changed his game mid-season to become a dominant player in the paint. I saw him numerous times exerting much-needed leadership by putting his arms around more experienced teammates who were rattled or upset. He did all of this under the intense spotlight that Duke brings, in a year where many things did not go Duke's way (leadership issues, Sulaimon comes in unprepared, Plumlee having to work back into shape, his own conditioning not ideal coming off injury). It was also a year that Coach K lost his brother. I think the impact of this on Coach K has been extremely under-appreciated. And I believe no team in the country takes on the identity of its coach as much as Duke. The end of the season was not great, but it can hardly be placed on Parker's shoulders.

Parker took on quite a bit of responsibility. He was personable and humble throughout - a fantastic representative of Duke. Up until the end of the season, even Duke fans agreed that he was the most NBA ready of all the college players. Its hard to imagine what more he could have possibly done. So how could anyone possibly be disappointed in Parker's decision or his season at Duke? This is a truly special kid. And I have no doubt that he will do big things in life. Its likely his biggest impact on Duke will come in the future. Recruits watched him throughout the season, saw the SI article and heard him during the awards tour. They can appreciate what he accomplished. And his best days are ahead of him. Furthermore, he stated he will continue work for his degree - so he's not even leaving Duke, he's leaving Duke basketball. If you aren't happy with Parker than you will likely never be happy with any player (unless they are fortunate enough to be on a dominant team). Okafor, Jones and Company may be the best freshmen in the country next year - and still not be nearly as good as Parker was this season.

Good luck to this kid. He has a wonderful future ahead.

Des Esseintes
04-17-2014, 04:49 PM
These are not mutually exclusive goals... preparing for a life's work, and developing a greater world view alongside personal growth. In fact, they go together hand in hand, thus the beauty of the university setting! Pretty much all of the people I know that were lucky enough to have a college education, and all of the people I knew at Duke, were there for both.

Yes, we develop over the course of a lifetime. But we also go through developmental stages, one of which is quite accelerated during the age that most students attend college (glad I took Developmental Psych at Duke!). The rate of personal development between the years say 38 and 42, is pretty different than rate between 18 and 22. Barring a catastrophic or unusual life-changing event, I would be surprised to find anyone who didn't experience a more profound change to their outlook on the world in the more tender years of late adolescence and young adulthood.

Right, Duke University is a tremendous opportunity for growth. It's a really special place. But, man, so is playing in the NBA. If Jabari has a curious mind, who are we to say he can't have his horizons expanded as widely in the NBA for his age 19-22 years as at Duke? That's the part I don't get. If I had been allowed to do the NBA when I was 19, I would have done the NBA, in a second. And I'm the dude who reads Antonio Negri and Robbes-Grillet for fun. In our (justifiable) warmth for Duke and our appreciation for the rarefied privilege it is to attend there, we can sometimes lose sight of the fact that there are other rarefied privileges in life and that some might be even more rarefied and rewarding than life on campus.

hudlow
04-17-2014, 05:20 PM
Jabari will be making Duke proud on another level.

All the best to him.

next play.

JPtheGame
04-17-2014, 05:34 PM
Im shocked. Ive been pretty vocal on here that I was convinced that Jabari was staying so I'll take my medicine.
I do think that when we hear the whole story, we will learn that he was planning to stay and then something swayed him.
No matter, best of luck to a great kid with a great future.


Ps- my other theory was that Miles Turner would only consider Duke if Jabari was gone so here's hoping I go 1 for 2.

Edouble
04-17-2014, 05:36 PM
Im shocked. Ive been pretty vocal on here that I was convinced that Jabari was staying so I'll take my medicine.
I do think that when we hear the whole story, we will learn that he was planning to stay and then something swayed him.
No matter, best of luck to a great kid with a great future.


Ps- my other theory was that Miles Turner would only consider Duke if Jabari was gone so here's hoping I go 1 for 2.

Maybe there is more to it than Jabari had to say in his interview/SI piece, but I think that this is the whole story that the general public is going to get. :(

Furniture
04-17-2014, 05:36 PM
I think we said the same things when Rivers declared. I'm not going to be a NBA Jabari fan, simply because I won't care. It's apathy not antipathy. I don't fault him at all for making this decision, but I just don't get that invested in one and done players. When I think about this season, I'm going to remember Dre, not Parker.

I just don't get this comment and I don't understand some of other "throw the toys out of the pram" comments by others too. I WILL remember JP and will really support him in the NBA just like I do Mason and the other guys. He is a great kid that really likes and supports/ represents Duke. My feelings are reciprical!

Saratoga2
04-17-2014, 06:27 PM
Jabari was a special player for Duke this past season and has a strong likelihood of becoming a star at the NBA level. It was a shame that with the talent we had on the team this year we didn't achieve more, but such is life. To use just a couple of examples of people flourishing in the NBA, Grant Hill and Shane Battier went through the experience and have turned out to be fine men. True they stayed longer at Duke, but Jabari seems to be very solid person and can grow in many ways while maintaining his own identity and values.

Personally, my trips to NBA games led me to conclude it has become a circus and not at all that interesting. He will grow richer than most of us can ever hope to be, but there is a price to be paid for that financial gain.

Sorry to see him go so soon but all I can do is wish him the best of Luck!

NYBri
04-17-2014, 06:32 PM
Best to JP.

Life goes on.

Go New Devils!

CameronBornAndBred
04-17-2014, 06:36 PM
I just don't get this comment and I don't understand some of other "throw the toys out of the pram" comments by others too. I WILL remember JP and will really support him in the NBA just like I do Mason and the other guys. He is a great kid that really likes and supports/ represents Duke. My feelings are reciprical!
I'm with Gus, for the most part, and others that have stated likewise. Here is my analogy for you, and it totally true.
Yesterday, I was trying to think of my last girlfriend's name, and I honestly couldn't. It took me a long while to sit and scratch my head and finally it came to me. I dated that woman three years ago. Since then, I have been in a wonderful relationship with an amazing woman, she has all my focus; I do not care about the girl I dated for three months. I care about the woman that is making every morning an adventure to wake up with, and has been for the last three years.
The same is true with any OAD that Duke brings on board. I will enjoy the time I get with them, but once they are gone, I won't look back. I will be too involved with following the college careers and progress of the other guys we have on our team. And in three years if I have to scratch my head to remember that guy's name who could have graduated with them, I won't waste too much brain power on the effort.
It doesn't mean they are a bad person, just that they are not who I will remember.

mr. synellinden
04-17-2014, 06:42 PM
Eamon Brennan has some interesting thoughts here (http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/98540/jabari-parker-nba-best-place-to-grow).

dukepsy1963
04-17-2014, 07:10 PM
UConn, Wisconsin and Florida were 3 of the Final Four teams and none of them has had a one and done or even early entry player this year, at least announced so far.

The best team generally wins championships, not the collection of best players. I know you can not predict who will be a one and done and some this year are surprising to me and some may regret it. However I would rather that we stop recruiting the pretty obvious 1 and dones and get back to building teams that win championships. Coach K restructured the offense around Hood and Parker and in my opinion confused the roles of Rasheed and Cook. The offense needs to change completely again for next year feature Okafor, who will leaver after one year.

I liked it better when K talked about guys not unpacking their bags rather than what an honor it was to coach them for a year.

SoCal

I did too!
When I was at Duke we had good and exciting teams and players who were some of the best students on campus! They stayed around. Thank you guys of my generation. I respected you then, I respect you now.

Duvall
04-17-2014, 07:11 PM
I did too!
When I was at Duke we had good and exciting teams and players who were some of the best students on campus! They stayed around. Thank you guys of my generation. I respected you then, I respect you now.

In 1963 they didn't have the option of going to the NBA early.

Devilwin
04-17-2014, 07:22 PM
Not surprised.

Deeply disappointed.

Joins the list of Duke one-and-dones who I won't root for in the NBA because one-and-done is using the college and not truly being part of it (that's how I have always felt and still do - and I know most don't agree with me, but I'm fine with that).

I agree 100%. The NBA, in my opinion, is degrading the college game. We don't want to be Kentucky, do we? We will still be an awesome team next year, but with Parker and Hood, we could have had the best college team in decades. I honestly thought there was a chance he would return, he seemed happy here. But it's hard to resist that money, I know. There ought to be some kind of age thing, or something in place, if a kid wants to go into the NBA, and is that good, let him go out of high school, instead of wasting the school's time and money. I am old enough to recall when this was not a problem, you got good recruits, you had them for four years and had something to build on. You didn't have to have all five star players, because you had room to grow from within, and build a good team. Now, that's gone, it disgusts me. Another reason why I would rather watch paint dry than watch NBA games....

Oh! Did anyone else catch Quin Cook on an episode of "The Dog Whisperer"? Something about aggressive dogs with bad owners. It didn't mention his name, but he was there talking about dogs for a minute.

Atlanta Duke
04-17-2014, 07:24 PM
He will grow richer than most of us can ever hope to be, but there is a price to be paid for that financial gain.

Thank goodness when other Duke students enter other financially lucrative professions such as I-banking or law there will not be a price to be paid.:) I agree with what you are saying, just saying reaching for the top in any field has tradeoffs.

After re-reading Jabari's statement, what struck me is his spot on observation that every year spent in college is one less year that he can pursue his career in the NBA. For the top high school players putting in that one year unfortunately has made college ball a second choice, which seems to go against the tide of seeking greater empowerment for revenue sports athletes.

So of course rather than one and done the push is on for 2 and 20.

dukepsy1963
04-17-2014, 07:32 PM
In 1963 they didn't have the option of going to the NBA early.

You are right, of course, but as I recall, academics/learning were more important than sports. And don't get me wrong...I search for tickets wherever I can find them; and will drive hundreds of miles to see the guys. It's just that I am fed up with the fact that K and Duke have caved in to the NBA and the "money tree." (And, of course, we are not alone in this)

Des Esseintes
04-17-2014, 07:42 PM
In 1963 they didn't have the option of going to the NBA early.

Well, it's complicated, since, uh, Jabari Parker would have more than the NBA keeping him off the court (http://spotlight.duke.edu/50years/african-american-firsts-at-duke-university/) at Cameron in 1963. Not everything changes for the worse.

SoCalDukeFan
04-17-2014, 07:48 PM
I agree 100%. The NBA, in my opinion, is degrading the college game. We don't want to be Kentucky, do we? We will still be an awesome team next year, but with Parker and Hood, we could have had the best college team in decades. I honestly thought there was a chance he would return, he seemed happy here. But it's hard to resist that money, I know. There ought to be some kind of age thing, or something in place, if a kid wants to go into the NBA, and is that good, let him go out of high school, instead of wasting the school's time and money. I am old enough to recall when this was not a problem, you got good recruits, you had them for four years and had something to build on. You didn't have to have all five star players, because you had room to grow from within, and build a good team. Now, that's gone, it disgusts me. Another reason why I would rather watch paint dry than watch NBA games....

Oh! Did anyone else catch Quin Cook on an episode of "The Dog Whisperer"? Something about aggressive dogs with bad owners. It didn't mention his name, but he was there talking about dogs for a minute.

I have something similar on another thread. The NBA is all about the NBA. They want to see at least one year of a HS star in college, avoid Kwame Browns. They have salary scale for new players to further protect themselves from big money contracts to the wrong guy. Players like Jabari need to get to the NBA as quickly as possible to start the clock so that they can get the big deal sooner. All this encourages 1 and dones.

I will root for Parker in the NBA because I think he is a good guy who gave his all for Duke and made the right decision. I also root for Irving, same reasons. I think Rivers left too soon so I follow him much less.

Coach K has done poorly recently with 1 and dones. Irving, Rivers, and Parker won a total of 2 NCAA tournament games. While there are always excuses the fact is that Lehigh and Mercer played better as teams than Duke. UConn, Wisconsin, and Florida proved you do not need one and dones to get to the Final Four. KY has shown that if you rely on one and dones then you need the right system for them.

SoCal

Kedsy
04-17-2014, 08:11 PM
They want to see at least one year of a HS star in college, avoid Kwame Browns. They have salary scale for new players to further protect themselves from big money contracts to the wrong guy. Players like Jabari need to get to the NBA as quickly as possible to start the clock so that they can get the big deal sooner. All this encourages 1 and dones.

You realize all that stuff is part of a collective bargaining agreement, right? There isn't an "NBA" in this context, both the players and the owners have to agree to this stuff.


UConn, Wisconsin, and Florida proved you do not need one and dones to get to the Final Four.

Yeah, and 283 Division I teams proved you don't need a one-and-done to miss the tournament entirely.


KY has shown that if you rely on one and dones then you need the right system for them.

Tell me, is the definition of "the right system" the system that a Final Four team uses? In that case, what did Kentucky (playing the same system) prove in 2013?

JamminJoe
04-17-2014, 08:16 PM
More than a few spoiled fans on this thread. Maybe you guys disowning Jabari should read Elton Brand's letter to that female student that slammed him for leaving after his sophomore year.

Furniture
04-17-2014, 08:21 PM
I agree 100%. The NBA, in my opinion, is degrading the college game. We don't want to be Kentucky, do we? We will still be an awesome team next year, but with Parker and Hood, we could have had the best college team in decades. I honestly thought there was a chance he would return, he seemed happy here. But it's hard to resist that money, I know. There ought to be some kind of age thing, or something in place, if a kid wants to go into the NBA, and is that good, let him go out of high school, instead of wasting the school's time and money. I am old enough to recall when this was not a problem, you got good recruits, you had them for four years and had something to build on. You didn't have to have all five star players, because you had room to grow from within, and build a good team. Now, that's gone, it disgusts me. Another reason why I would rather watch paint dry than watch NBA games....

Oh! Did anyone else catch Quin Cook on an episode of "The Dog Whisperer"? Something about aggressive dogs with bad owners. It didn't mention his name, but he was there talking about dogs for a minute.

"Wasting the schools time and money ". Really? I don't believe that the coaches think like this. Plus don't you think that any Duke player in the NBA just adds value to Duke? Should we refuse to take oklafor then? So many questions....

norduck
04-17-2014, 08:30 PM
I have something similar on another thread. The NBA is all about the NBA. They want to see at least one year of a HS star in college, avoid Kwame Browns. They have salary scale for new players to further protect themselves from big money contracts to the wrong guy. Players like Jabari need to get to the NBA as quickly as possible to start the clock so that they can get the big deal sooner. All this encourages 1 and dones.

I will root for Parker in the NBA because I think he is a good guy who gave his all for Duke and made the right decision. I also root for Irving, same reasons. I think Rivers left too soon so I follow him much less.

Coach K has done poorly recently with 1 and dones. Irving, Rivers, and Parker won a total of 2 NCAA tournament games. While there are always excuses the fact is that Lehigh and Mercer played better as teams than Duke. UConn, Wisconsin, and Florida proved you do not need one and dones to get to the Final Four. KY has shown that if you rely on one and dones then you need the right system for them.

SoCal



Recruiting for 2016 USA Olympic team.

FerryFor50
04-17-2014, 08:30 PM
In fact, I would venture to say that Coach K, with a stable of players in the league and connections via USA Basketball to many of the league's top stars, would know much more about life in the NBA than Sonny Parker.

I'd be willing to bet Coach K told Jabari he was ready. So, there's that...

Edouble
04-17-2014, 08:37 PM
I'd be willing to bet Coach K told Jabari he was ready. So, there's that...

As would I. I am not sure of the connection though. That quote is taken from the middle of a much longer post discussing the "off the court" part of being in the NBA. You're talking about the "on the court" part, I believe.

FerryFor50
04-17-2014, 08:44 PM
"Wasting the schools time and money ". Really? I don't believe that the coaches think like this. Plus don't you think that any Duke player in the NBA just adds value to Duke? Should we refuse to take oklafor then? So many questions....

I don't have insight into the numbers, but the notion of wasting the school's time and money is RIDICULOUS. How much money did the school invest in Jabari that was any different than what they invested in, say, Josh Hairston?

How much money does the OP think Jabari MADE for Duke, via jersey sales, free publicity, ticket sales, etc? Does he think the fans came to see Hairston who was also on scholarship?

You could make a VERY compelling argument that the ROI on one and done players is much higher, financially, at least, than 4 year guys. Especially 4 year guys that don't play a ton.

As for the other arguments about one and dones... stop. The only way the "he needs to stay for his education" argument holds any water is if you truly believe the following:

1) EVERY college student should stay all 4 years, regardless of financial situation, need or high dollar offers from companies. Would you say the same if JPMC offered a Duke freshman $1 million a year to come work for them immediately?

2) EVERY college student should be prevented from having jobs outside of college activities.

There are plenty of other examples of how ridiculous the statement is about 4 year players vs OAD when compared to the average college kid, but you get the picture.

Jabari would have developed at Duke, but likely differently than in the NBA. I developed differently in college than when I started working.

And who says the NBA can't be enlightening?

- You play with the top players in the world, which only makes you better as a player.
- You travel all over the globe playing basketball and seeing the world. Sure, you travel while at Duke, but you don't do it with a million bucks in your account.
- You interact with all sorts of people, bad and good.
- You learn how to manage your money (or lose it).
- You learn public speaking skills.
- You do work in the community (if you're not a tool).
- You inspire a much larger audience than in college.

Everyone looks at the NBA as a negative, but it's a career. Just a very high paying one.

I have no doubts Jabari will finish his education, much like Duke players who left early prior to him.

FerryFor50
04-17-2014, 08:45 PM
As would I. I am not sure of the connection though. That quote is taken from the middle of a much longer post discussing the "off the court" part of being in the NBA. You're talking about the "on the court" part, I believe.

No, it was relevant. You said K knows about NBA life more than Parker's NBA father, because K is more current.

That includes off the court, too. K sees Parker as a very mature kid, I'm sure. And Jabari's dad likely still talks to current NBA guys. A lot of former players stay current. So it's not like he's completely in the dark.

Researchc
04-17-2014, 08:56 PM
I love this great country because everyone is entitled to their own opinion. That being said, I have a question for everyone that is bashing JP for his decision. If this team would have learned how to play defense all of the sudden and won the championship, how many of you would be questioning his ability to be a positive representative for Duke? I wonder how many Syracuse fans are bitter at that Carmelo Anthony kid because he left after one year. I hate the one and done era of college basketball as much as everyone else, but give the kid a break. What could be gained by him personally and financially by staying another year? He is definitely a top 2 pick, and this year has a good chance of going to a storied NBA franchise such as LA or Boston. Sometimes I think that our fans feel that to be a true Duke player, you have to win a championship and stay for all 4 years. So I guess what Coach K should do now is look for middle of the road players that will promise to stay for all 4 years. We will become a mid major type team that makes a long run in the NCAAs every few years.

A lot of people are talking about what they will remember about JP from this year. Mine is not the Mercer debacle (that has been erased from my memory by multiple shots of hard liquor), but Jabari signing autographs for hours after the open practice at the beginning of the season. My kids still talk about meeting him and proudly show everyone their signed basketball. I think Jabari will be an excellent professional and an all star for many years. I am proud of all of our Duke players and wish them the best of luck in all aspects of their lives, no matter what they do.

Best of luck Jabari! You will always be one of my favorite Duke players!

Selover
04-17-2014, 09:37 PM
and he shall now be known as Austin Rivers II...

dyedwab
04-17-2014, 09:37 PM
1) Jabari's a good kid, I wish him all the best in the NBA, and I assume he'll be a success.

2) I'm thrilled that he plans on graduating from Duke, even though he won't play basketball here anymore. That matters to me, for some reason.

3) I also understand those who don't feel the attachment to Jabari, Kyrie, Austin, etc as to those who stayed longer. And let's be clear, it's because the production of the teams they played on never matched the level of talent. I think we would all feel a lot differently if, like Carmelo, Jabari had led us to a National Title in his one year. Instead we lost to Mercer. It's irrational, but it matters in our memories.

4) The NBA rookie salary scale (which is collectively bargained as Kedsy said, but is irrelevant to the larger point) point both the player and NBA teams towards early entry, especially player like Jabari, who would have been a top 3 pick no matter what year he left. Essentially, the NBA is able to get extremely (relatively) cheap high level talent for three years, while the players need to start their clock on getting to the next contract. (As to why the players association agreed to it, well, it means that a larger share of the salary cap goes to veterans - who are their existing members).

5) The age limit works for the NBA (for reasons cites above as well as avoiding the Kwame Brown situations), and, to a degree it works for college basketball, with the best talent under age 19 playing at least a season in college.

6) It's why Adam Silver can suggest things like the NBA subsidizing college basketball players. http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10758585/nba-commissioner-adam-silver-says-subsidizing-ncaa-athletes-possibility

7) And, this is just my personal view. We have had successful one and done players - but we have not had teams that were as successful with them as teams without them. That makes me irrationally frustrated with the one-and-dones. I mean, we are gonna see Jabari Parker drafted in the top 3 of the NBA draft, we'll see Rodney Hood drafted later in the first round, and we'll ask, "How the hell could a team with that talent lose to freakin' Mercer?" And it will color everything about one-and-dones, at least for me.

Black Mambo
04-17-2014, 10:13 PM
Before anything else, congrats to Jabari on (in a few weeks) achieving his dream of getting to the NBA. As much as we would have loved him to stay, we are not his first priority, and my guess is that those that are (including K) are happy for him. Next play(er).

Now, does anybody have any info on how that CNN piece came about? It honestly does not sit well with me (who cares? I know). But it had a "Lebron's Decision" feel to it. If CNN came looking for Jabari, that's one thing, but to write your own piece about how you came to your decision, and hold a one on one interview just seems a bit odd.

Now, I know some of us (us, yes, because i am a Dukie, Pratt class of '00) will say that Jabari is cut from a different cloth and he is well spoken and being a visionary as far as giving insight into his thought process. But I wonder what our response would be if, say, Harrison Barnes had done the same thing. My guess is that we would be disparaging how the Black Falcon is trying to promote his brand, or something.

Not trying to be a downer. Jabari has made a great decision for himself, and yes he should think about himself and his future first. Coaches can leave at the drop of a dime to pursue (additional) millions. Why shouldn't a player be able to turn pro and pursue the same (not that that is Jabari's driving force). But again, the "Decision" like way in the CNN piece comes across as just seems a little odd.

What say you?

Bluegrassdevil1
04-17-2014, 10:14 PM
I think the future perception of Parker, for fans and the program entire, will be quite interesting to observe, as he is profoundly different from any of Coach K's OAD players:

Maggette - Was not a starter, nor the face of the program, nor the 98-99 team leader, and he did receive large credit or blame for the team's ups or downs. No one gave Maggette significant credit for the losses to the two UC's, or credit for the massive win streak between the losses.

Deng - Was the team's best "talent", but he was not the leader nor the face of the 03-04 team. Duke fans likely remember the UConn game for Williams' and Randolph's foul troubles, and not what Deng did or not do. Nor do fans think of Deng's efforts in the UNC Chapel Hill game, as much as they recall Duhon's game winner.

Irving - Was the team's best "talent", but was not the leader nor the "true" face of the 10-11 team. With Irving's injury, and the fact that he played so well against Michigan and Arizona, most fans simply look at the 10-11 season as bad luck and nothing more.

Rivers - Was the team's best "talent", "face", and awkwardly placed "leader", but he has the UNC shot, the Kelly injury, the Maui title, the close nature of the Lehigh game, and Coach K's 903 to help fans deal with no ACC titles and no NCAA wins.

Parker - Was the team's best "talent", "face", and awkwardly placed "leader", but unlike Deng or Maggette, no Final Four. Unlike Irving, no ACC title or Sweet-Sixteen, or major injury to justify any team struggles. Rivers' team did struggle, in Duke perceptions, but he has a famous shot over the program's rival, and the Kelly injury was significant. Parker has nothing but individual honors, no team success. Nothing ACC related, no NIT title, no NCAA tournament wins. It would be difficult to argue that post-1986, that there has been a more disappointing Duke team than the 13-14 team, and for good or ill, Parker is the face of that team and its season.

I suspect that Parker will have a career quite similar to Irving's: great on one side of the ball, poor on the other. However, Irving's headstrong nature serves him well in the NBA's tenuous world, whereas Parker does seem like an excellent human being, truly driven to be a good guy, but those traits are not found in the Jordans, Chamberlains, Bryants, James, or Birds of the league, so one is left to wonder, "with great power comes great responsibility", and how many people would not rather have meek little Peter Parker in a foxhole over the 6'8" brawny Parker.

FerryFor50
04-17-2014, 10:29 PM
Parker - Was the team's best "talent", "face", and awkwardly placed "leader", but unlike Deng or Maggette, no Final Four. Unlike Irving, no ACC title or Sweet-Sixteen, or major injury to justify any team struggles. Rivers' team did struggle, in Duke perceptions, but he has a famous shot over the program's rival, and the Kelly injury was significant. Parker has nothing but individual honors, no team success. Nothing ACC related, no NIT title, no NCAA tournament wins. It would be difficult to argue that post-1986, that there has been a more disappointing Duke team than the 13-14 team, and for good or ill, Parker is the face of that team and its season.

I suspect that Parker will have a career quite similar to Irving's: great on one side of the ball, poor on the other. However, Irving's headstrong nature serves him well in the NBA's tenuous world, whereas Parker does seem like an excellent human being, truly driven to be a good guy, but those traits are not found in the Jordans, Chamberlains, Bryants, James, or Birds of the league, so one is left to wonder, "with great power comes great responsibility", and how many people would not rather have meek little Peter Parker in a foxhole over the 6'8" brawny Parker.

You seem to be saying that Rivers' shot - which was great - outweighs Jabari's dominance of UNC at Cameron this season

In the game where Rivers hit the shot over Zeller, he went 9-16 for 29 points. He was 6-10 from 3. But he didn't do much else; had 5 boards, 2 assists and 3 turnovers.

Jabari's stat line against UNC:

10-17, 30 points, 11 boards

Both had great games, but Jabari was dominant IMO.

You are also discounting the overall fan attitude towards the two players. Generally, fans (both Duke and opposing) liked and respected Jabari. The opposite sentiment was often thrown Rivers' way.

I will remember Jabari much like I remember Kyrie - smart, well-spoken kids that seemed to be genuinely nice guys. Those are great traits to have in Duke players.

Des Esseintes
04-17-2014, 10:30 PM
I suspect that Parker will have a career quite similar to Irving's: great on one side of the ball, poor on the other. However, Irving's headstrong nature serves him well in the NBA's tenuous world, whereas Parker does seem like an excellent human being, truly driven to be a good guy, but those traits are not found in the Jordans, Chamberlains, Bryants, James, or Birds of the league, so one is left to wonder, "with great power comes great responsibility", and how many people would not rather have meek little Peter Parker in a foxhole over the 6'8" brawny Parker.
It's as though people have forgotten Tim Duncan has four NBA titles.

Also, I have no idea what point you are making re: Spider-Man.

FerryFor50
04-17-2014, 10:31 PM
Also, another contribution from Jabari - his close relationship to Jahlil Okafor probably helped quite a bit in swaying him to come to Duke. So while Parker leaves, the cupboard is not bare!

JPtheGame
04-17-2014, 10:43 PM
Also, another contribution from Jabari - his close relationship to Jahlil Okafor probably helped quite a bit in swaying him to come to Duke. So while Parker leaves, the cupboard is not bare!

This is an excellent point! If his friendship brought okafor and his absence brings turner then I suppose we could all live with that.

Edouble
04-17-2014, 10:48 PM
Before anything else, congrats to Jabari on (in a few weeks) achieving his dream of getting to the NBA. As much as we would have loved him to stay, we are not his first priority, and my guess is that those that are (including K) are happy for him. Next play(er).

Now, does anybody have any info on how that CNN piece came about? It honestly does not sit well with me (who cares? I know). But it had a "Lebron's Decision" feel to it. If CNN came looking for Jabari, that's one thing, but to write your own piece about how you came to your decision, and hold a one on one interview just seems a bit odd.

Now, I know some of us (us, yes, because i am a Dukie, Pratt class of '00) will say that Jabari is cut from a different cloth and he is well spoken and being a visionary as far as giving insight into his thought process. But I wonder what our response would be if, say, Harrison Barnes had done the same thing. My guess is that we would be disparaging how the Black Falcon is trying to promote his brand, or something.

Not trying to be a downer. Jabari has made a great decision for himself, and yes he should think about himself and his future first. Coaches can leave at the drop of a dime to pursue (additional) millions. Why shouldn't a player be able to turn pro and pursue the same (not that that is Jabari's driving force). But again, the "Decision" like way in the CNN piece comes across as just seems a little odd.

What say you?

The piece sat poorly with me too. It made me feel like Jabari couldn't man up and face the banquet if he had already declared, so he waited. If he had made up his mind, he needed to spill ASAP, as we are still after Turner.

Also, I did not not find him to be that well spoken. He seems like he's always searching for the biggest, most descriptive word in his vocabulary and so his sentences come out choppy with jumbled syntax.

If Harrison Barnes had done the same thing, I would have rolled my eyes. I rolled my eyes a bit when I watched Jabari's piece. LeBron's Decision came to mind immediately and I thought... what?!?! Seems like a strange PR move considering how so many people are looking to knock Duke and how poorly LeBron's taped announcement was received.

FerryFor50
04-17-2014, 10:51 PM
The piece sat poorly with me too. It made me feel like Jabari couldn't man up and face the banquet if he had already declared, so he waited. If he had made up his mind, he needed to spill ASAP, as we are still after Turner.

Also, I did not not find him to be that well spoken. He seems like he's always searching for the biggest, most descriptive word in his vocabulary and so his sentences come out choppy with jumbled syntax.

If Harrison Barnes had done the same thing, I would have rolled my eyes. I rolled my eyes a bit when I watched Jabari's piece. LeBron's Decision came to mind immediately and I thought... what?!?! Seems like a strange PR move considering how so many people are looking to knock Duke and how poorly LeBron's taped announcement was received.

What if he was waiting until after the banquet as not to detract attention from the real stars of the night - the seniors?

And how on earth is a short article on his decision anything like an hour long TV special?? It sounded more to me like a kid who doesn't like letting people down and felt the need to explain himself.

Would it have sat better with you if he just bolted without a word?

gurufrisbee
04-17-2014, 10:53 PM
3) I also understand those who don't feel the attachment to Jabari, Kyrie, Austin, etc as to those who stayed longer. And let's be clear, it's because the production of the teams they played on never matched the level of talent. I think we would all feel a lot differently if, like Carmelo, Jabari had led us to a National Title in his one year. Instead we lost to Mercer. it matters in our memories.
.



Parker - Parker has nothing but individual honors, no team success. Nothing ACC related, no NIT title, no NCAA tournament wins. It would be difficult to argue that post-1986, that there has been a more disappointing Duke team than the 13-14 team, and for good or ill, Parker is the face of that team and its season.

100% right on.

Bluegrassdevil1
04-17-2014, 10:59 PM
You seem to be saying that Rivers' shot - which was great - outweighs Jabari's dominance of UNC at Cameron this season

In the game where Rivers hit the shot over Zeller, he went 9-16 for 29 points. He was 6-10 from 3. But he didn't do much else; had 5 boards, 2 assists and 3 turnovers.

Jabari's stat line against UNC:

10-17, 30 points, 11 boards

Both had great games, but Jabari was dominant IMO.

You are also discounting the overall fan attitude towards the two players. Generally, fans (both Duke and opposing) liked and respected Jabari. The opposite sentiment was often thrown Rivers' way.

I will remember Jabari much like I remember Kyrie - smart, well-spoken kids that seemed to be genuinely nice guys. Those are great traits to have in Duke players.


Re: Rivers' UNC shot: I simply intended that for a lasting memory, i.e. five, ten, twenty years from present, people will be able to immediately recall River's shot at UNC not Parker's stat-line, in much the same way that people will recall Harrison's shots against U of L, Michigan and Wisconsin, not the fact that he struggled to live up to expectations for the first four months of the season. I would argue that the NBA's ups and downs are remembered as seasons long spans, careers, streaks: the Russell Celtics, the Showtimes Lakers, the 90's Bulls, the current Spurs run, the Heat from 2011 to today, whereas college basketball is remembered for singular moments: Charles for NC State, Smart for IU, Drew for Valpo, Laettner, Curry in the Sweet Sixteen and Elite-8, Morrison's tears at halfcourt, Butler reacting to Hayward's miss.

NashvilleDevil
04-17-2014, 11:02 PM
Re: Rivers' UNC shot: I simply intended that for a lasting memory, i.e. five, ten, twenty years from present, people will be able to immediately recall River's shot at UNC not Parker's stat-line, in much the same way that people will recall Harrison's shots against U of L, Michigan and Wisconsin, not the fact that he struggled to live up to expectations for the first four months of the season. I would argue that the NBA's ups and downs are remembered as seasons long spans, careers, streaks: the Russell Celtics, the Showtimes Lakers, the 90's Bulls, the current Spurs run, the Heat from 2011 to today, whereas college basketball is remembered for singular moments: Charles for NC State, Smart for IU, Drew for Valpo, Laettner, Curry in the Sweet Sixteen and Elite-8, Morrison's tears at halfcourt, Butler reacting to Hayward's miss.

I'll remember Singler's reaction to the miss more than Butler's. But, hey, that's just me.

Edouble
04-17-2014, 11:07 PM
What if he was waiting until after the banquet as not to detract attention from the real stars of the night - the seniors?

And how on earth is a short article on his decision anything like an hour long TV special?? It sounded more to me like a kid who doesn't like letting people down and felt the need to explain himself.

Would it have sat better with you if he just bolted without a word?

There was an article and a video interview.

It would have sat better with me if he had announced as soon as he knew, b/c we're going after Turner. He has all the time in the world for an ESPN Sunday conversation, Jabari blog, whatever.

dukelifer
04-17-2014, 11:09 PM
I don't have insight into the numbers, but the notion of wasting the school's time and money is RIDICULOUS. How much money did the school invest in Jabari that was any different than what they invested in, say, Josh Hairston?

How much money does the OP think Jabari MADE for Duke, via jersey sales, free publicity, ticket sales, etc? Does he think the fans came to see Hairston who was also on scholarship?

You could make a VERY compelling argument that the ROI on one and done players is much higher, financially, at least, than 4 year guys. Especially 4 year guys that don't play a ton.

As for the other arguments about one and dones... stop. The only way the "he needs to stay for his education" argument holds any water is if you truly believe the following:

1) EVERY college student should stay all 4 years, regardless of financial situation, need or high dollar offers from companies. Would you say the same if JPMC offered a Duke freshman $1 million a year to come work for them immediately?

2) EVERY college student should be prevented from having jobs outside of college activities.

There are plenty of other examples of how ridiculous the statement is about 4 year players vs OAD when compared to the average college kid, but you get the picture.

Jabari would have developed at Duke, but likely differently than in the NBA. I developed differently in college than when I started working.

And who says the NBA can't be enlightening?

- You play with the top players in the world, which only makes you better as a player.
- You travel all over the globe playing basketball and seeing the world. Sure, you travel while at Duke, but you don't do it with a million bucks in your account.
- You interact with all sorts of people, bad and good.
- You learn how to manage your money (or lose it).
- You learn public speaking skills.
- You do work in the community (if you're not a tool).
- You inspire a much larger audience than in college.

Everyone looks at the NBA as a negative, but it's a career. Just a very high paying one.

I have no doubts Jabari will finish his education, much like Duke players who left early prior to him.

It is career- but an odd one. You don't get to pick where you go in Pro sports. You simply end up on a team and are expected to blend in. You are also expected to take the criticism of your play. Yes- you get a lot of money in return- but the experience is not always a good one. Jabari will get better as a pro in time, but next year will be a huge challenge for him. Unfortunately, he really had no choice here. If you are a top pick you have to go. It remains to be seen how he will handle himself when he plays against men.

Bluegrassdevil1
04-17-2014, 11:12 PM
It's as though people have forgotten Tim Duncan has four NBA titles.

Also, I have no idea what point you are making re: Spider-Man.

My son adores Spiderman, and I think he has pickled my brain to a level which requires me to view Spiderman as the representative metaphor for the world at large. In truth, I was likely going somewhere with the comparison, but it likely involves the Green Goblin and Andrew Garfield v. Tobey Maguire, and no one needs to read that. Maybe one day I will create a tangent that compares Parker to Joseph Campbell's theories. (everyone should probably skip that thread)

NashvilleDevil
04-17-2014, 11:21 PM
It has been a joy to read all those on here who think they know better than Jabari, and those who advised him, what he should have done in regards to his future. All those posting and in a way bad mouthing Jabari did you really think that he was going to be more than a one year player? So what if he waited until after the banquet to make his announcement? I also do not see a problem with the article in SI and sitting for an interview with Jeff Benedict, a reporter that Jabari obviously feels (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20140219/jabari-parker/) comfortable (http://www.jeffbenedict.com/index.php/blog/35-blog/365-crazy) with.

So the year ended in disappointing fashion but he had several great moments, the first half against Kansas, the dunk against Maryland, the Carolina game and that stretch against UVA in the ACC championship where he could not be stopped. I for one will be rooting for Jabari at the next level and think he will be a tremendous representative for Duke.

FireOgilvie
04-17-2014, 11:56 PM
I really hope that some of these negative reactions are coming from a small vocal minority and are not representative of the Duke fan base; I think this is probably the case. Also, I find it absurd that people are seemingly equating Jabari with the team's lack of success this year. Jabari made the team MUCH better, and without him we would have lost many more games. It's not his fault that the coaching staff failed to recruit a decent center multiple years in a row (or that Marshall Plumlee has been injured for half of his career). He's probably going to play a lot of SF/PF in the NBA, but he willingly played out of position to help the team as a PF/C, and never once complained about it. He's pursuing his dream to play in the NBA. His father was an NBA player, and he's from a pro sports town. Little kids don't grow up with the dream of playing college - they want to play in the NBA. Also, he's 19 and seems like an incredibly thoughtful and mature individual. He even says that he's going to finish his degree. I'm not going to remember him as fondly as guys like Nolan Smith or Jon Scheyer, but I certainly don't blame him for making this decision.

ncexnyc
04-18-2014, 12:46 AM
Good luck to the young man. Jabari was a class act while act Duke and was an excellent spokesman for the University. I hope he finds everything he wants at the next level.

gocanes0506
04-18-2014, 01:13 AM
Well sportscenter got their dig in while reporting Jabari is leaving. "Like his team in the tourney, Jabari Parker is one and done at Duke."

CameronBornAndBred
04-18-2014, 07:12 AM
and he shall now be known as Austin Rivers II...
How about Kyrie II?

gurufrisbee
04-18-2014, 07:28 AM
How about Kyrie II?

Is there a significant difference? I don't see it.

Billy Dat
04-18-2014, 07:41 AM
This is a tangent, but it really feels like Jabari cut some kind of deal with SI, back when he became a high school cover boy, to cover his "journey". I'm not saying he got paid, but all of the coverage of him this year was very well planned and rolled out across their various print and multimedia properties, including his announcement. It all seemed very tongue and groove, too much so for it to be covered journalistic-ally as it was unfolding.

CameronBornAndBred
04-18-2014, 08:12 AM
Is there a significant difference? I don't see it.
Depends on who you ask. Austin left a bad taste in some peoples' mouths, even before he declared. You won't find the same with Kyrie, or with Jabari.

MCFinARL
04-18-2014, 08:22 AM
This is a tangent, but it really feels like Jabari cut some kind of deal with SI, back when he became a high school cover boy, to cover his "journey". I'm not saying he got paid, but all of the coverage of him this year was very well planned and rolled out across their various print and multimedia properties, including his announcement. It all seemed very tongue and groove, too much so for it to be covered journalistic-ally as it was unfolding.

Well, it certainly seems possible that the Parkers could have decided to foster a relationship with a particular outlet/reporter in order to have some control over Jabari's story and how it was reported. Nothing wrong with that--it would be a smart public relations move regardless of compensation. And because they are obviously smart people, I feel absolutely confident that he/they did not get paid for the stories, even if there was some kind of understanding. Let's just squelch that potential rumor before it starts.

Billy Dat
04-18-2014, 08:42 AM
Well, it certainly seems possible that the Parkers could have decided to foster a relationship with a particular outlet/reporter in order to have some control over Jabari's story and how it was reported. Nothing wrong with that--it would be a smart public relations move regardless of compensation. And because they are obviously smart people, I feel absolutely confident that he/they did not get paid for the stories, even if there was some kind of understanding. Let's just squelch that potential rumor before it starts.

I meant my comments more in reaction the comparison of his announcement to "The Announcement" and how slick it seemed to be. I think it probably did unfold the way you describe, and I tried to describe, which is just another sign of how these things have evolved. For those who qualify, the "journey" from high school phenom to freshman superstar to "succeed and proceed" NBA declaration can be chronicled via a "branded" narrative with cooperation from a venerable media outlet. The brand, which is the player him/herself, is built carefully, humanized and properly positioned. We laughed at Harrison Barnes because he clumsily tried to do it himself - the skype-conference, the black falcon logo, etc. Jabari didn't make that mistake. With yellowing media brands like SI desperate to remain relevant in an ESPN-dominated world, they are essentially acting as PR firms in an "advertorial" way for kids like Jabari. I mean, I am pretty sure Jabari and his people got to review and edit that story before it was published. Everyone wins, I guess, it's just different than it used to be, that is for sure.

Atlanta Duke
04-18-2014, 09:24 AM
Before anything else, congrats to Jabari on (in a few weeks) achieving his dream of getting to the NBA. As much as we would have loved him to stay, we are not his first priority, and my guess is that those that are (including K) are happy for him. Next play(er).

Now, does anybody have any info on how that CNN piece came about? It honestly does not sit well with me (who cares? I know). But it had a "Lebron's Decision" feel to it. If CNN came looking for Jabari, that's one thing, but to write your own piece about how you came to your decision, and hold a one on one interview just seems a bit odd.

Now, I know some of us (us, yes, because i am a Dukie, Pratt class of '00) will say that Jabari is cut from a different cloth and he is well spoken and being a visionary as far as giving insight into his thought process. But I wonder what our response would be if, say, Harrison Barnes had done the same thing. My guess is that we would be disparaging how the Black Falcon is trying to promote his brand, or something.

Not trying to be a downer. Jabari has made a great decision for himself, and yes he should think about himself and his future first. Coaches can leave at the drop of a dime to pursue (additional) millions. Why shouldn't a player be able to turn pro and pursue the same (not that that is Jabari's driving force). But again, the "Decision" like way in the CNN piece comes across as just seems a little odd.

What say you?

Whether or not it is effective, it appears to be part of a sophisticated media strategy to try and develop Jabari's brand since high school. You make money off endorsements as well as salary.

The co-author of the Sports Illustrated piece announcing Jabari's departure for the NBA and interviewer on the accompanying video is SI writer Jeff Benedict. As Nashville Devil posts above, Jabari and Benedict have met before.

Benedict also was the author of the long article on Jabari, which commended with K visiting his home in 2012, that ran in SI in February.

The Education of Duke freshman phenom Jabari Parker

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20140219/jabari-parker/#ixzz2zF6WFqJL

At the same time that article ran in February, Jabari and K were interviewed by Armen Keteyian of "60 Minutes Sports." An article on the CBS website linked to the SI article and stated the Benedict article involved 6 months of writing and reporting. The SI article also provided a link to the CBS article.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/duke-basketball-coach-mike-krzyzewski-talks-treasure-star-freshman-jabari-parker/

And the Sports Illustrated cover story in May 2012, in which Jabari was described as the best high school player since LeBron, also was written by Jeff Benedict. That cover story discussed both his game and how Jabari's faith was so important to him

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1198498/index.htm

So the article announcing his departure is just the latest in a series of stories in which Jabari Parker and his family have attempted to control and develop his public image through Sports Illustrated and its writer Jeff Benedict. Had Duke somehow managed to win the tournament I would guess we would have seen a behind the scenes Jabari/Benedict article on that.

Jabari seems to be a bright guy, but my assumption is his parents and perhaps other media savvy adults his parents know have been involved for some time in executing this strategy.

MCFinARL
04-18-2014, 09:36 AM
I meant my comments more in reaction the comparison of his announcement to "The Announcement" and how slick it seemed to be. I think it probably did unfold the way you describe, and I tried to describe, which is just another sign of how these things have evolved. For those who qualify, the "journey" from high school phenom to freshman superstar to "succeed and proceed" NBA declaration can be chronicled via a "branded" narrative with cooperation from a venerable media outlet. The brand, which is the player him/herself, is built carefully, humanized and properly positioned. We laughed at Harrison Barnes because he clumsily tried to do it himself - the skype-conference, the black falcon logo, etc. Jabari didn't make that mistake. With yellowing media brands like SI desperate to remain relevant in an ESPN-dominated world, they are essentially acting as PR firms in an "advertorial" way for kids like Jabari. I mean, I am pretty sure Jabari and his people got to review and edit that story before it was published. Everyone wins, I guess, it's just different than it used to be, that is for sure.

Yes, I agree with this--and it is different. We live in a world that is, really, all about branding, right down to the pages of millions of otherwise anonymous Facebook users. People like Jabari who may ultimately have a lot of income tied up in their brand are not going to be exceptions to this.

And I didn't mean to suggest you thought money had changed hands. I just thought it important to be even clearer that you did NOT think that, since language like "I'm not saying" can be a bit ambiguous, and crazy rumors have started on the basis of less.

sagegrouse
04-18-2014, 09:38 AM
Jabari seems to be a bright guy, but my assumption is his parents and perhaps other media savvy adults his parents know have been involved for some time in executing this strategy.u

Very observant, Atlanta Duke. We might also give credit to SI for cultivating a relationship with a budding NBA star. Maybe before he is absorbed by ESPN.

Billy Dat
04-18-2014, 09:58 AM
And I didn't mean to suggest you thought money had changed hands. I just thought it important to be even clearer that you did NOT think that, since language like "I'm not saying" can be a bit ambiguous, and crazy rumors have started on the basis of less.

No worries, we're on the same page, as is Atlanta Duke and several others. To tease this thing out a little further, not only does the player and his family get to control the message, they also set the stage for endorsements. Jabari has been positioned via these media relationships as the finest of fine young men - a truth I don't doubt, but one wonders if it matters that much as long as everyone believes it - which sets him up well for a certain category of endorsements now that he is a professional. I'd be curious if there is a better Men's Basketball Program at leveraging the media in this way than Duke, which has long been known to stress media training with its players, an effort that has been expanded in a very fun, organic and offbeat way via DukeBluePlanet (the player on player interviews, dorm room tours, etc.).

Furniture
04-18-2014, 10:11 AM
No, you're totally wrong. The NBA guys who sometimes go to strip clubs are wasting their lives and their minds. Whereas the Wall Street dudes who attended four years of college with me and sometimes go to strip clubs are doing really valuable, society-building things. In fact, just think how much worse we'd all be if the Wall Street dudes from Duke and the Ivies had spent the last twenty years playing basketball instead of adding such great innovations to human history as credit default swaps and high-frequency trading.

Like those Wall St guys who were responsible for the widespread mortgage fraud that fueled the real estate bubble and drove the country into recession? I'll take an NBA strip club dude any day. Much less damage to society.

superdave
04-18-2014, 10:15 AM
Like those Wall St guys who were responsible for the widespread mortgage fraud that fueled the real estate bubble and drove the country into recession? I'll take an NBA strip club dude any day. Much less damage to society.

Dont forget the Federal Reserve and politicians!

Maybe we can do a thread this summer "More damage: Bad Boys/Riley/VanGundy to Hoops or Politicans/Wall Street to the Economy".

The moderators would shut us down pretty quickly.

Has Parker picked an agent yet?

Troublemaker
04-18-2014, 10:36 AM
Also, another contribution from Jabari - his close relationship to Jahlil Okafor probably helped quite a bit in swaying him to come to Duke. So while Parker leaves, the cupboard is not bare!


This is an excellent point! If his friendship brought okafor and his absence brings turner then I suppose we could all live with that.

Also, I will never forget Jabari and Rodney's scintillating performances on Senior Night against Carolina. They were so brilliant, helping send our seniors out with a comfortable win against our hated, unethical rivals.

Kennard and Jeter reportedly had a blast at that game, too. So if we're going to discuss how Jabari and Rodney payed it forward for Duke, we should note that Kennard canceled all his other visits and committed to become a Blue Devil not long after Senior Night. I'd like to think Jabari and Rodney played some small role in that happening. Jeter may very well commit to Duke in the next couple of months, and of course, Myles Turner was at that game, too. Let's see what happens there.

So we'll always have Senior Night 2014 with Jabari and Rodney. Not that they owe me anything. But they did owe themselves and the Duke program to be good teammates and good students, and by all accounts, they were that. Both guys made the ACC All-Academic Team, and I thank them for that.

These are two great kids who are ready to become men with their decisions to leave. I wish them well and will be rooting hard for them in the NBA.

Congratulations Jabari and Rodney, for realizing your dreams!

BlueTeuf
04-18-2014, 10:38 AM
I think the Jeff Benedict relationship was good for Duke, good for Coach Krzyzewski - and even good for me. I really like the Jabari Parker that I met through Benedict's writing. I don't fully commit to impressions based on limited internet or media coverage, but I feel we got to know Jabari more insightfully through Benedict's sustained interaction and writing. It adds a melancholy to his departure because I saw Battier-level potential for Parker's legacy. That will never be.

I hoped he would stay, but could never have advised Parker to remain at Duke. The risks are real and risk tolerance is an intensely personal emotion. Parker said he felt blessed to be at Duke - I believe him and feel blessed we had our moment with him.

His open letter through SI Parker's Public Letter (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20140417/jabari-parker-declares-for-nba-draft/) has been both praised and critiqued. I can see both angles - but am glad he wrote it.

The two elements that I found most difficult are reconcilable -

"Which environment -- college or the NBA -- offers me the best opportunity to grow as a basketball player?
Which environment -- college or the NBA -- offers me the best opportunity to grow and develop off the court?
The answer to both questions is undeniably the NBA."

"Undeniable" can seem hyperbolic - but if you accept the context as specific to Parker, who are we to judge?
From my personal experiences and as a father of four, I'm inclined to think he's mistaken. But, if his internal barometer read "undeniable", I can accept that at face value.

"Money was not a factor in my decision to go pro."

This is harder to reconcile. We have in Parker’s own words the many compelling reasons to stay. Friends, relationships, mentoring, championships, education, et al. The NBA will most assuredly wait for Jabari Parker – an “NBA dream” is not at risk, only delayed. So, money is the most obvious reason. But then again, what is his dream? If your goal is something other than competing in the NBA – perhaps philanthropy - or maybe he wants to be the all-time NBA scoring leader. Well then – it’s best to get started.

The landscape’s different than when I was in college – the best talent don’t have the same intermediate horizons; they’re focused further up the ladder. Find me the top talent who has an undeniable urge to earn their jersey into Cameron's rafters – or who will sacrifice “anything” to win an NCAA championship (some hyperbole of my own).

That will be a rare breed indeed – and is unlikely to be playing Div I men’s college hoops at a national power.

Or will be named Tyler.

Edouble
04-18-2014, 12:14 PM
"Money was not a factor in my decision to go pro."

Did he say that in the interview? I can't find it in the article, and I really don't feel like watching the video over again. If he really did say that, it does not reconcile at all with this:

I know firsthand that the career span of a pro basketball player is finite. The lucky ones play until their mid-30s. With that perspective, I shrink my professional career with each year that I remain in college.

I don't think it's too much to read between the lines and take that to mean that he needs to get paid while he can. I never had any doubt that Jabari would be with us for only one year, but to say that a 10 million dollar contract does not factor into a decision... c'mon now! Even the most "pure of heart" are gonna have to give life changing money some consideration when it's on the table.

Ltrey33
04-18-2014, 12:41 PM
It's hurtful to you, personally? That's just bizarre. People are wired differently, and I don't know why you assume that you know Parker better than he knows himself.

Yes I take these things VERY personally.

No, I mean hurtful to the program and to those who supported him (the university and the fans). It is just too strongly worded for my taste. It makes it sound like it was a no-brainer and Duke had nothing to offer him.

freshmanjs
04-18-2014, 12:56 PM
Did he say that in the interview? I can't find it in the article.

it's in the article

CameronBornAndBred
04-18-2014, 02:52 PM
and he shall now be known as Austin Rivers II...


How about Kyrie II?


Is there a significant difference? I don't see it.


In her article covering the banquet, and the seniors, Laura Keeley makes a telling statement. Apparently Thornton and Hairston relayed stories about Kyrie getting them in trouble (on purpose, haha).

This would have been Irving’s senior year, had he not declared and gone No. 1 overall in the 2011 NBA Draft. But he was long gone by the time his senior moment came, just as Parker and Hood will be, too. Time will tell if they’re remembered more like Irving or more like Austin Rivers, who also won zero NCAA Tournament games and was not mentioned at all.


http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/04/17/3792018/thoughts-from-dukes-banquet-seniors.html#emlnl=Duke

Owen Meany
04-18-2014, 03:23 PM
I would imagine that Duke and Coach K are happy with the Benedict-Parker relationship. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Coach K had input on either the in-season or announcement stories. I have read in the past that one point Duke "sells" to recruits is the exposure Duke will bring. The SI articles were great for Duke and Parker. When I read "The Education of Jabari Parker" I envisioned the Duke haters gnashing their teeth at what they viewed as the unfairness of a Duke-recruiting tool disguised as an SI article. There was nothing over the top about Parker's announcement, and it wasn't even in the ballpark of Lebron's. (although I certainly wouldn't begrudge a player doing interviews, etc to build their brand). Given his personality, and the very low key nature of the announcement, I seriously doubt this was an attempt at branding. I imagine it was a way for Parker to share his thought process about his decision - to make it clear he loved Duke, Coach K and his teammates, but that it was time to move forward.

Setting aside the team's disappointing season, I cannot imagine what more people expected of Parker this year. He's a great kid with a great future. I wish him all the best. Luckily, his successes will continue to benefit Duke basketball for years to come.

greybeard
04-18-2014, 05:35 PM
I think it's very difficult to argue against the NBA as the best place to develop as a player, especially one where the organization will invest millions in (trainers, coaches, physical therapists, doctors, etc etc etc).

The second question is debatable, and I think it is player-to-player. Had I entered the working world at the age of 19, there is no way that I would have matured at my first job. College gave me the ability to develop as a person. But, again, it's person-to-person. And I'm not Jabari Parker.

I wonder if this had anything to do with his "going to bed" hungry comment. He clearly is committed to independence. His father played pro ball and it does not sound like his family is hurting. So, the NCAA infantilizes athletes, especially the stars, and especially those who desire independence enough to go it on their own. If Parker stayed and had no discretionary money to explore life, to even get the bare necessities and live even what most would regard as a modest lifestyle, what would that say about his ability to develop as a person?

A man of his talents who needs to take care of himself, to manage the choices that will be presented to him, would it seems to me have to see growth as a person best served by going now. How could it be otherwise. Ask those sages who run the NCAA and make these nonsensical rules. Personally, I wouldn't wait for an honest answer.

richardjackson199
04-18-2014, 05:51 PM
I would imagine that Duke and Coach K are happy with the Benedict-Parker relationship. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Coach K had input on either the in-season or announcement stories. I have read in the past that one point Duke "sells" to recruits is the exposure Duke will bring. The SI articles were great for Duke and Parker. When I read "The Education of Jabari Parker" I envisioned the Duke haters gnashing their teeth at what they viewed as the unfairness of a Duke-recruiting tool disguised as an SI article. There was nothing over the top about Parker's announcement, and it wasn't even in the ballpark of Lebron's. (although I certainly wouldn't begrudge a player doing interviews, etc to build their brand). Given his personality, and the very low key nature of the announcement, I seriously doubt this was an attempt at branding. I imagine it was a way for Parker to share his thought process about his decision - to make it clear he loved Duke, Coach K and his teammates, but that it was time to move forward.

Setting aside the team's disappointing season, I cannot imagine what more people expected of Parker this year. He's a great kid with a great future. I wish him all the best. Luckily, his successes will continue to benefit Duke basketball for years to come.

I thought all the SI articles were extremely well written. I'm happy for Jabari because after reading that, it's very clear he's doing what he wants to do and is following his dream. I'm not sure I believe Coach K had any input into Jabari's article because of one quote which has already been replayed over and over by the media:

"Which environment -- college or the NBA -- offers me the best opportunity to grow and develop off the court?
The answer to both questions is undeniably the NBA."

We can debate exactly what he meant by that all day, but there is no point. I could have done without that one comment in the article. I'm pretty sure Jabari did not intentionally mean anything negative toward Duke or Coach K. He is a wonderful kid, and I believe he would never do that. But after Jabari's 1 year at Duke, that comment will make implications for some readers as to his perceived college experience and growth off the court at Duke. It could even be used to negatively recruit against Duke or to encourage other Duke players to leave who are deciding whether to jump to the NBA vs. return. I wouldn't be surprised if Coach K was a little hurt or even insulted when he read that. So I doubt Coach K had input into that article. I agree with the rest of your post 100% and well said.

I hope Jabari is drafted #1 and realizes all his NBA dreams on and off the court.

Des Esseintes
04-18-2014, 06:12 PM
u

Very observant, Atlanta Duke. We might also give credit to SI for cultivating a relationship with a budding NBA star. Maybe before he is absorbed by ESPN.

It wouldn't surprise me if Benedict eventually publishes a Jabari book. Some kind of several-year log of Jabari's path to stardom, maybe against the backdrop of his unusual position as an African-American Mormon icon.

Owen Meany
04-18-2014, 07:15 PM
I thought all the SI articles were extremely well written. I'm happy for Jabari because after reading that, it's very clear he's doing what he wants to do and is following his dream. I'm not sure I believe Coach K had any input into Jabari's article because of one quote which has already been replayed over and over by the media:

"Which environment -- college or the NBA -- offers me the best opportunity to grow and develop off the court?
The answer to both questions is undeniably the NBA."

We can debate exactly what he meant by that all day, but there is no point. I could have done without that one comment in the article. I'm pretty sure Jabari did not intentionally mean anything negative toward Duke or Coach K. He is a wonderful kid, and I believe he would never do that. But after Jabari's 1 year at Duke, that comment will make implications for some readers as to his perceived college experience and growth off the court at Duke. It could even be used to negatively recruit against Duke or to encourage other Duke players to leave who are deciding whether to jump to the NBA vs. return. I wouldn't be surprised if Coach K was a little hurt or even insulted when he read that. So I doubt Coach K had input into that article. I agree with the rest of your post 100% and well said.

I hope Jabari is drafted #1 and realizes all his NBA dreams on and off the court.


To be clear, I didn't mean Coach K actually helped write the articles (although I can see it being taken that way). I would think Benedict (and K) had too much integrity for that. I meant that he may have encouraged the mutually beneficial relationship ("Sure, come on down. Why don't you stay a while and do an extended piece. You're welcome to sit in on meetings, etc.) Coach K understands the importance of the media, the anti-Duke crowd, and the importance of getting your message across. He has spoken about it several times over the past years. I am fairly certain this is one reason Duke Blue Planet was launched. I believe Coach K could see the benefit of Benedict and Parker's relationship. It certainly resulted in a more interesting, thoughtful piece than you typically see. I've got to believe if Coach K thought it was not in Duke's best interest he would not have granted Benedict the access he had.

As for Parker's comment about developing off the court - I definitely wish that wasn't in there. But I feel confident that Parker did not mean it to come across negatively towards Duke. First of all, he spoke very highly of Duke in the piece. Second, that would be totally inconsistent with everything we know about the kid. Parker is very polite, thoughtful, and respectful. He is not, however, the most eloquent speaker. I obviously admire the kid greatly, so I do not mean this with any disrespect. I have noticed this in previous interviews. Sometimes its difficult to follow what he is saying, or he answers a question that wasn't asked. This is very understandable as he is only 18 and its his first year in the national spotlight. There aren't many Shane Battiers in this world at 18. I think he is very intelligent and thoughtful, but sometimes has difficulty articulating what he is thinking. He's very smart, and I expect this improves quickly over the next few years.

Even if you take his comments in a negative light (which I hope most don't), it would really reflect on college versus the pros, not on Duke specifically. I think someone recruiting a kid interested in Duke, who was truly interested in personal development while in school - would be hard pressed to make the argument that their school had more to offer in that respect. That is, if a kid is thoughtful enough to put real weight on off the court development when choosing a school, he would not be swayed by coaches attempting to use Parker's comments against Duke. If a coach wants to recruit against Duke based on off the court development, I think Duke is in a pretty good position.

NashvilleDevil
04-18-2014, 07:41 PM
I wonder if this had anything to do with his "going to bed" hungry comment.

Unless I am mistaken I do not recall Jabari making a comment about going to bed hungry but I do remember Shabazz Napier making such a comment.

WestVirginiaDukie
04-18-2014, 09:48 PM
I've been swamped at work and just learned of Parker's defection for the NBA. How disappointing that he would put his personal interests above the team's.

Black Mambo
04-19-2014, 12:31 AM
I've been swamped at work and just learned of Parker's defection for the NBA. How disappointing that he would put his personal interests above the team's.

I dont know if this is in jest or not. I hope so. If not, I hope you apply this same line of thinking to yourself when you consider switching jobs, likely in the middle of an ongoing project.

Edouble
04-19-2014, 12:41 AM
I dont know if this is in jest or not. I hope so. If not, I hope you apply this same line of thinking to yourself when you consider switching jobs, likely in the middle of an ongoing project.

Let's see... here are WestVirginiaDukie's two most recent posts:


You only talk about what is best for the player. But last time I checked, basketball is a team sport. He has a four-year scholarship to Duke, and could wind up as the greatest player in the history of college basketball. THAT should be the goal.


I totally agree. He is not ready for the NBA, as his performance in the last two games shows. Why in the world would he want to leave early when he could improve so much?

No... I don't think he's joking.

greybeard
04-19-2014, 01:03 AM
Unless I am mistaken I do not recall Jabari making a comment about going to bed hungry but I do remember Shabazz Napier making such a comment.

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=145&f=3156&t=12812461&p=2

CameronBornAndBred
04-19-2014, 01:06 AM
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=145&f=3156&t=12812461&p=2
I (regretfully) clicked that link, only to see a long I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.fest of posts. What was the quote you were hoping to point to?

greybeard
04-19-2014, 02:09 AM
I (regretfully) clicked that link, only to see a long I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.fest of posts. What was the quote you were hoping to point to?

I watched the video of a reporter stop Parker who was wearing a suit and began asking questions about Napier's comment. Reporter asked several questions. Must have been posted on DBR. I don't search the web for such stuff. Only see what is on DBR.

JPtheGame
04-19-2014, 05:09 AM
http://collegespun.com/national/the-25-most-successful-college-basketball-programs-of-the-64-team-era-scored-by-ncaa-tournament-bracket-rules

just a reminder that even though the one and done situation is far from perfect, we've still had it pretty good.

sagegrouse
04-21-2014, 03:36 PM
So says Jeff Goodman from a poll of NBA execs. Jabari significantly outpolled both Wiggins and Embiid (details hidden on ESPN Insider).

I predict that JP will average more than 15 PPG as rookie -- but what do I know?

superdave
04-21-2014, 03:54 PM
So says Jeff Goodman from a poll of NBA execs. Jabari significantly outpolled both Wiggins and Embiid (details hidden on ESPN Insider).

I predict that JP will average more than 15 PPG as rookie -- but what do I know?

You can see Chad Ford's Big Board on the right column here (http://espn.go.com/nba/draft). Parker has moved up to #2 past Embiid. But I think this move happened 6-8 weeks ago when Embiid's back problems caused him to sit out.

My guess is Wiggins' workouts will be off the charts and this wont be much of a discussion.

superdave
04-22-2014, 08:46 AM
As of his declaration for the draft, Jabari did not have an agent.

Does anyone know if he has hired one yet?

johnb
04-22-2014, 10:41 AM
You can see Chad Ford's Big Board on the right column here (http://espn.go.com/nba/draft). Parker has moved up to #2 past Embiid. But I think this move happened 6-8 weeks ago when Embiid's back problems caused him to sit out.

My guess is Wiggins' workouts will be off the charts and this wont be much of a discussion.

If I'm a coach/GM whose job hangs in the balance, I wouldn't care much about the workouts. While there are exceptions (Miles Plumlee, perhaps), the body of work is more important than the height of the jump.If I'm going to be fired unless we win an additional ten games next season, I'd definitely draft Parker ahead of the Kansas guys, neither of whom seems ready to immediately excel in the NBA.

UrinalCake
04-22-2014, 10:47 AM
As of his declaration for the draft, Jabari did not have an agent.

Does anyone know if he has hired one yet?

Don't do this to yourself.

CDu
04-22-2014, 11:11 AM
As of his declaration for the draft, Jabari did not have an agent.

Does anyone know if he has hired one yet?

If you're asking in terms of possibility of returning, whether or not he has hired an agent is irrelevant. Parker declared for the draft after the NCAA deadline for players to maintain eligibility, so he has forfeited his remaining college eligibility. If he hasn't already hired an agent, he will be doing so, because there is no turning back.

If you're just asking out of curiosity, I have no idea. ;)

superdave
04-22-2014, 12:10 PM
Don't do this to yourself.


If you're asking in terms of possibility of returning, whether or not he has hired an agent is irrelevant. Parker declared for the draft after the NCAA deadline for players to maintain eligibility, so he has forfeited his remaining college eligibility. If he hasn't already hired an agent, he will be doing so, because there is no turning back.

If you're just asking out of curiosity, I have no idea. ;)

Yeah, I am just curious. Irving hired Jeff Wechsler, Rivers hired David Falk, etc. I was thinking there might be a trend among recent Duke lottery picks on agents. Probably not though.

TexHawk
04-22-2014, 12:29 PM
If I'm a coach/GM whose job hangs in the balance, I wouldn't care much about the workouts. While there are exceptions (Miles Plumlee, perhaps), the body of work is more important than the height of the jump.If I'm going to be fired unless we win an additional ten games next season, I'd definitely draft Parker ahead of the Kansas guys, neither of whom seems ready to immediately excel in the NBA.

I don't know about "immediately excel", but it's not like the KU guys are just workout warriors who have never touched a basketball before. Wiggins put up over 17ppg, 6 reb in one of the best hoops conferences in the country (and got robbed for POY). He was a 2nd team All-American. There is no doubt that he will immediately excel defensively at the next level.

While I would say that Jabari is more likely to hit the ground running faster (on offense) on November 1, it's not like Wiggins will be wearing training wheels. This isn't a Kwame Brown/Darko Milicic/let's-stash-him-on-the-bench-for-two-years-and-hope situation.

I can buy it with Embiid, who wasn't even playing hoops 3 years ago. That's not the case with Wiggins.

flyingdutchdevil
04-22-2014, 12:38 PM
I don't know about "immediately excel", but it's not like the KU guys are just workout warriors who have never touched a basketball before. Wiggins put up over 17ppg, 6 reb in one of the best hoops conferences in the country (and got robbed for POY). He was a 2nd team All-American. There is no doubt that he will immediately excel defensively at the next level.

While I would say that Jabari is more likely to hit the ground running faster (on offense) on November 1, it's not like Wiggins will be wearing training wheels. This isn't a Kwame Brown/Darko Milicic/let's-stash-him-on-the-bench-for-two-years-and-hope situation.

I can buy it with Embiid, who wasn't even playing hoops 3 years ago. That's not the case with Wiggins.

I have to agree with Johnb. Seth Greenberg said it best: "Best potential is Embiid. Best athlete is Wiggins. Best current NBA player is Jabari." I think it's tough to disagree with that statement (other than the grammatical errors, of course!).

If I'm a GM with my job on the line, I'd draft Jabari (Sacramento). If I'm a GM with a few years to spare, I would draft Wiggins (ie Bucks). If I'm a GM who is looking to build a team in the long-term, I'd draft Embiid (Philly).

Duvall
04-22-2014, 12:55 PM
I have to agree with Johnb. Seth Greenberg said it best: "Best potential is Embiid. Best athlete is Wiggins. Best current NBA player is Jabari." I think it's tough to disagree with that statement (other than the grammatical errors, of course!).

If I'm a GM with my job on the line, I'd draft Jabari (Sacramento). If I'm a GM with a few years to spare, I would draft Wiggins (ie Bucks). If I'm a GM who is looking to build a team in the long-term, I'd draft Embiid (Philly).

And if I'm the GM of the Cleveland Cavaliers, I'd draft James Michael McAdoo, because Cleveland.

tommy
04-22-2014, 01:01 PM
I have to agree with Johnb. Seth Greenberg said it best: "Best potential is Embiid. Best athlete is Wiggins. Best current NBA player is Jabari." I think it's tough to disagree with that statement (other than the grammatical errors, of course!).

If I'm a GM with my job on the line, I'd draft Jabari (Sacramento). If I'm a GM with a few years to spare, I would draft Wiggins (ie Bucks). If I'm a GM who is looking to build a team in the long-term, I'd draft Embiid (Philly).

Philly is one team that doesn't need Embiid, as they have Nerlens Noel coming back. I think they'd take Jabari.

COYS
04-22-2014, 02:01 PM
I don't know about "immediately excel", but it's not like the KU guys are just workout warriors who have never touched a basketball before. Wiggins put up over 17ppg, 6 reb in one of the best hoops conferences in the country (and got robbed for POY). He was a 2nd team All-American. There is no doubt that he will immediately excel defensively at the next level.

While I would say that Jabari is more likely to hit the ground running faster (on offense) on November 1, it's not like Wiggins will be wearing training wheels. This isn't a Kwame Brown/Darko Milicic/let's-stash-him-on-the-bench-for-two-years-and-hope situation.

I can buy it with Embiid, who wasn't even playing hoops 3 years ago. That's not the case with Wiggins.

Wiggins was also a very good defender last year, something that I feel that many (not you, TexHawk) overlooked.

I'll be honest, if I were a GM I would hope that Embiid doesn't fall to me. He might have the highest ceiling of the bunch, but I feel like he has the lowest floor, as well. Worst case for Jabari is that you have a reliable scoring threat who doesn't give you much defense and maybe never develops the consistent three point range you would hope. Worst case for Wiggins is that you have a super athletic slasher/scorer who is a really good second or third option on offense and a terror on the defensive end. Worst case with Embiid is that his back problem is a harbinger of things to come and he never develops the NBA skill set to go along with his NBA athleticism. With Jabari, Wiggins, and Randle all seemingly locks to at least be above average NBA players in this draft, Embiid seems like the outlier in that I could see him going either way.

Don't get me wrong, I like Embiid's game a lot. I think the odds are he's going to be a good NBA player. But if I put on my NBA GM hat, I would get very little sleep going with Embiid as my top 5 pick.

UrinalCake
04-22-2014, 02:36 PM
Yeah, I am just curious. Irving hired Jeff Wechsler, Rivers hired David Falk, etc. I was thinking there might be a trend among recent Duke lottery picks on agents. Probably not though.

I think Brand also went with Falk. Haven't noticed any real pattern though.

superdave
04-22-2014, 02:49 PM
Philly is one team that doesn't need Embiid, as they have Nerlens Noel coming back. I think they'd take Jabari.

Doesnt Noel project as a 4 and Embiid as a 5 in the NBA? Espn lists Noel at 6'11, 228 and Embiid at 7'0'', 250.

NBA teams typically carry 4-5 big guys in their rotation, so I dont think Noel would prevent Philly from taking Embiid over Parker. Philly's other bigs under contract: Nobody (http://hoopshype.com/salaries/philadelphia.htm). If Philly assumes they will stink another year, they ought to take Embiid and get into the Mudiay/Okafor/Alexander/Turner sweepstakes.

I think Embiid's MRI and medical examinations will determine if he goes 1 or 10. Who knows where his ceiling and floor are.

Kedsy
04-22-2014, 03:08 PM
Doesnt Noel project as a 4 and Embiid as a 5 in the NBA? Espn lists Noel at 6'11, 228 and Embiid at 7'0'', 250.

NBA teams typically carry 4-5 big guys in their rotation, so I dont think Noel would prevent Philly from taking Embiid over Parker. Philly's other bigs under contract: Nobody (http://hoopshype.com/salaries/philadelphia.htm). If Philly assumes they will stink another year, they ought to take Embiid and get into the Mudiay/Okafor/Alexander/Turner sweepstakes.

Well, if the 76ers had Noel and Embiid, how much would they benefit from Okafor, Alexander, or Turner? And with Carter-Williams, is Mudiay really worth tanking two seasons in a row? If they're building around Noel and Carter-Williams, then Jabari would seem to make the most sense, or possibly Wiggins.

FireOgilvie
04-22-2014, 03:12 PM
I'm guessing Parker will probably be Rookie of the Year, but Wiggins has a higher ceiling. Wiggins' whole game will be transformed as soon as he improves his dribbling/ball control - just like Durant this year. Something clicked with Durant and he's been much more effective/unstoppable driving with the ball this year and now he's MVP. Having said that, I really don't know who I would choose if I had the number 1 pick. Basketball skills/potential aside, Jabari is a fantastic guy and teammate to have on your club. He's also going to make a ton of money on endorsements and is very marketable.

superdave
04-22-2014, 03:23 PM
Well, if the 76ers had Noel and Embiid, how much would they benefit from Okafor, Alexander, or Turner? And with Carter-Williams, is Mudiay really worth tanking two seasons in a row? If they're building around Noel and Carter-Williams, then Jabari would seem to make the most sense, or possibly Wiggins.

It's easier to find a 3/4 than a true 5. So I would think if Philly or any other team saw Parker and Embiid as truly equal in long-term value, then they should go with the player that is more scarce (Embiid, a true 5). I tend to agree with that logic, and think most GMs are enamored with it.

I have seen very little of Carter-Williams and nothing of Mudiay, so I have no idea whether they can play together or not. Two big guards who can both play point sounds pretty good though, assuming they both can shoot the 3-ball.

Either way, I do not see Philly making the playoffs next year unless somehow MCW, Noel and their draft pick (top 5 guaranteed) can make the playoffs. If you are not playoff-bound, you might as well stay at the bottom and get another top 5 pick. I thought Cleveland should have avoided the Andrew Bynum experiment and stayed at the bottom another year and gotten another blue-chipper. The Wizards generally followed this path, but swung and missed on Jan Vesely and Otto Porter. Imagine if the Wiz got MCW and Kawhi Leonard instead?

CameronBornAndBred
04-22-2014, 03:24 PM
I'm guessing Parker will probably be Rookie of the Year
I bet he's not, and by a long shot. He needs to work so much on his conditioning; it's a long season and I don't see Jabari keeping up. Not saying he won't be productive or good, but I doubt he will be more productive than at least a handful of other guys that will be starting their NBA careers next season.

FerryFor50
04-22-2014, 03:30 PM
I bet he's not, and by a long shot. He needs to work so much on his conditioning; it's a long season and I don't see Jabari keeping up. Not saying he won't be productive or good, but I doubt he will be more productive than at least a handful of other guys that will be starting their NBA careers next season.

Here are the possible scenarios, in no particular order:

Jabari bombs
Critics complain that Duke did not prepare him adequately in his year in school.

Jabari wins rookie of the year
Critics note that Jabari didn't need a year at Duke to win ROY

Jabari has an average season
Critics note that Jabari was good enough to have an average season in the NBA and that Duke just held him back.

flyingdutchdevil
04-22-2014, 03:30 PM
I bet he's not, and by a long shot. He needs to work so much on his conditioning; it's a long season and I don't see Jabari keeping up. Not saying he won't be productive or good, but I doubt he will be more productive than at least a handful of other guys that will be starting their NBA careers next season.

I'll bet that he is ROY. Embiid will get rested this year, meaning he probably won't play 60+ games. Wiggins will be a defensive beast from Day 1, but ROY always goes to offensive-minded players.

I think that Jabari's only real competition is Randle, who is almost as NBA-ready as Jabari.

CameronBornAndBred
04-22-2014, 03:31 PM
I'll bet that he is ROY. Embiid will get rested this year, meaning he probably won't play 60+ games. Wiggins will be a defensive beast from Day 1, but ROY always goes to offensive-minded players.

I think that Jabari's only real competition is Randle, who is almost as NBA-ready as Jabari.
Somewhere in all this betting is a poll. :rolleyes:

flyingdutchdevil
04-22-2014, 03:32 PM
Philly is one team that doesn't need Embiid, as they have Nerlens Noel coming back. I think they'd take Jabari.

Those are examples of teams that are in the "win now", "win soon", or "win in 5 years" camp. Philly is an interesting team. They need players at the 2-4, and Jabari, Wiggins, and Randle fit that bill.

With Philly, any player they draft is a need, and I'd argue that Noel and Embiid can coexist together as a dynamic duo on defense (and, depending on Embiid's development, potentially offense as well).

CDu
04-22-2014, 03:55 PM
Those are examples of teams that are in the "win now", "win soon", or "win in 5 years" camp. Philly is an interesting team. They need players at the 2-4, and Jabari, Wiggins, and Randle fit that bill.

With Philly, any player they draft is a need, and I'd argue that Noel and Embiid can coexist together as a dynamic duo on defense (and, depending on Embiid's development, potentially offense as well).

Yeah, especially given Noel's lack of weight. I could easily see him playing at the PF spot next to Embiid at C. Having two bigs is working for the Wizards right now with Nene and Gortat, and it is working for the Spurs with Duncan and Splitter.

Ideally, one of the two will develop a bit of a face-up game. But both are mobile enough to defend the PF spot, and they'd be a nightmare of a shotblocking tandem.

sagegrouse
04-22-2014, 04:06 PM
Here are the possible scenarios, in no particular order:

Jabari bombs
Critics complain that Duke did not prepare him adequately in his year in school.

Jabari wins rookie of the year
Critics note that Jabari didn't need a year at Duke to win ROY

Jabari has an average season
Critics note that Jabari was good enough to have an average season in the NBA and that Duke just held him back.

I agree that Jabari is a strong candidate for Rookie of the Year in 2015. Heck, Mason Plumlee may win it this year, coming off the bench.

While Jabari is not a particularly strong shooter, he does have a lot of Larry-Bird-like skills in passing and seeing the court. He should score a lot over much smaller players in the open court . I've already predicted that Jabari will average 15 PPG next season, which should produce a good chance at ROY. Of course, it doesn't hurt that he's the best-known player coming out of college.

superdave
04-22-2014, 05:19 PM
I just ran Chad Ford's lottery mock draf (http://espn.go.com/nba/lottery2014/mockdraft)t a bunch of times.

Parker goes #1 to Cleveland (1.7% chance at #1 pick), Minnesota (0.6%), Detroit (2.8%) and Utah (10.4%). That's a total of a 15.5% chance that a team that would pick Jabari #1 overall actually wins the lottery and lands the #1 pick.

Most other scenarios have Jabari going 2 or 3, with Wiggins going 1 or 2 and Embiid going 1,2 or 3. Exum sneaks into the mix a few places.

In one scenario, Parker does go #4 to Milwaukee where Sacramento takes Embiid 1, Philly takes Wiggins at 2 and LA pick Exum at 3.

The two most interesting things that will shape this are Embiid's medical exam and Exum's workouts since he is less well known.

Kedsy
04-22-2014, 05:27 PM
It's easier to find a 3/4 than a true 5. So I would think if Philly or any other team saw Parker and Embiid as truly equal in long-term value, then they should go with the player that is more scarce (Embiid, a true 5). I tend to agree with that logic, and think most GMs are enamored with it.

This may be right, but my point was if they did this, they wouldn't be in the "sweepstakes" for Okafor, Alexander, or Turner. You might use that logic when picking one player, but if your top two talents are both young big men, and you don't have a lot of other talent, you're not picking another big man with your first pick in the next draft.


Either way, I do not see Philly making the playoffs next year unless somehow MCW, Noel and their draft pick (top 5 guaranteed) can make the playoffs.

The Sixers also have New Orleans' first round pick, although it's top 5 protected. If it ends up in the 6 to 10 range, then MCW plus Noel, two lottery picks, and a lot of cap space to snag a free agent or two could possibly yield a playoff contender. If not, then I agree they might as well go for the 2015 lottery, but that still doesn't argue for or against drafting Jabari this season.

TexHawk
04-22-2014, 05:27 PM
I just ran Chad Ford's lottery mock draf (http://espn.go.com/nba/lottery2014/mockdraft)t a bunch of times.

Parker goes #1 to Cleveland (1.7% chance at #1 pick), Minnesota (0.6%), Detroit (2.8%) and Utah (10.4%). That's a total of a 15.5% chance that a team that would pick Jabari #1 overall actually wins the lottery and lands the #1 pick.

Most other scenarios have Jabari going 2 or 3, with Wiggins going 1 or 2 and Embiid going 1,2 or 3. Exum sneaks into the mix a few places.

In one scenario, Parker does go #4 to Milwaukee where Sacramento takes Embiid 1, Philly takes Wiggins at 2 and LA pick Exum at 3.

The two most interesting things that will shape this are Embiid's medical exam and Exum's workouts since he is less well known.

These are interesting numbers, at least in relation to Goodman's take from the previous page. Goodman supposedly asked someone from each NBA franchise. Well, why ask the Spurs/Thunder/Heat/Pacers, who have probably given the question about .5 seconds of thought? There is about a 0.0001% chance that any of those teams would have the option.

superdave
04-22-2014, 06:00 PM
This may be right, but my point was if they did this, they wouldn't be in the "sweepstakes" for Okafor, Alexander, or Turner. You might use that logic when picking one player, but if your top two talents are both young big men, and you don't have a lot of other talent, you're not picking another big man with your first pick in the next draft.



The Sixers also have New Orleans' first round pick, although it's top 5 protected. If it ends up in the 6 to 10 range, then MCW plus Noel, two lottery picks, and a lot of cap space to snag a free agent or two could possibly yield a playoff contender. If not, then I agree they might as well go for the 2015 lottery, but that still doesn't argue for or against drafting Jabari this season.

Utah picked Enes Kanter #3 overall in 2011 despite having Al Jefferson, Mehmet Okur and Derrick Favors on the roster. Okur was quickly gone, and Jefferson just left last summer via free agency. So there's one precedent for taking a big in spite of having a fairly deep frontcourt.

Detroit signed Josh Smith last summer with Andre Drummond and Greg Monroe on the roster. That's one more big man depth example.

It will be interesting to see if Philadelphia uses their draft picks or cap space this summer. I am guessing it is dependent on Noel's progress (is he looking like Anthony Davis in practice?). The best case scenario for them is to hold on to the cap space and use it to take a disgruntled All-Star who needs a change of scenery some time next season or the season after, while continuing to build through the draft. But some teams make it half way through the building plan and decide to win now (Cleveland). It would be nice to see Philly remain patient.

NBA GMs are strange animals.

NashvilleDevil
04-22-2014, 06:09 PM
Utah picked Enes Kanter #3 overall in 2011 despite having Al Jefferson, Mehmet Okur and Derrick Favors on the roster. Okur was quickly gone, and Jefferson just left last summer via free agency. So there's one precedent for taking a big in spite of having a fairly deep frontcourt.

Detroit signed Josh Smith last summer with Andre Drummond and Greg Monroe on the roster. That's one more big man depth example.

It will be interesting to see if Philadelphia uses their draft picks or cap space this summer. I am guessing it is dependent on Noel's progress (is he looking like Anthony Davis in practice?). The best case scenario for them is to hold on to the cap space and use it to take a disgruntled All-Star who needs a change of scenery some time next season or the season after, while continuing to build through the draft. But some teams make it half way through the building plan and decide to win now (Cleveland). It would be nice to see Philly remain patient.

NBA GMs are strange animals.

How much is a GM's rash decision making based on the owner? I don't think Chris Grant was a particularly good GM but working for Dan Gilbert who probably changes his mind every 5 minutes has to be frustrating.

Kedsy
04-22-2014, 06:11 PM
Utah picked Enes Kanter #3 overall in 2011 despite having Al Jefferson, Mehmet Okur and Derrick Favors on the roster. Okur was quickly gone, and Jefferson just left last summer via free agency. So there's one precedent for taking a big in spite of having a fairly deep frontcourt.

Detroit signed Josh Smith last summer with Andre Drummond and Greg Monroe on the roster. That's one more big man depth example.

Yeah, and now Detroit is wishing they hadn't signed Smith. Utah knew Jefferson was on the way out and that Okur wasn't the big they wanted to build around. But a bigger issue is what else does the team have? The Sixers have essentially nothing right now, except Noel and MCW (and Thaddeus Young, except they don't want him to start, sort of like Okur). It would be crazy for them to collect Noel, Embiid, and Okafor/Alexander/Turner while trotting out D-League dropouts at two or three other positions.

FireOgilvie
04-22-2014, 06:39 PM
I bet he's not, and by a long shot. He needs to work so much on his conditioning; it's a long season and I don't see Jabari keeping up. Not saying he won't be productive or good, but I doubt he will be more productive than at least a handful of other guys that will be starting their NBA careers next season.

Who do you have as ROY? "By a long shot," really? You never know, but I would be shocked if he wasn't in the top 3 in voting.

On offense, Jabari is probably the most NBA-ready player in the draft. McDermott is up there as well, but I don't think his game translates to the NBA as well (which is why he's going number 10 or whatever and not #2-3). Also, Jabari will end up on a bad team that will give him big minutes immediately. That works in his favor.

brevity
04-22-2014, 06:59 PM
Somewhere in all this betting is a poll. :rolleyes:

I actually would like to see a poll to predict the 2014-2015 Rookie of the Year, but I don't think it should be done until after the draft. Otherwise it's like doing an off-topic movie box office poll without knowing the release dates.

CameronBornAndBred
04-23-2014, 08:51 AM
Who do you have as ROY? "By a long shot," really? You never know, but I would be shocked if he wasn't in the top 3 in voting.

On offense, Jabari is probably the most NBA-ready player in the draft. McDermott is up there as well, but I don't think his game translates to the NBA as well (which is why he's going number 10 or whatever and not #2-3). Also, Jabari will end up on a bad team that will give him big minutes immediately. That works in his favor.
I am going to try really hard to remember this next year so we can see how our guesses panned out. There is a lot of basketball to play until then. I just think he is going to have trouble since his game is mostly offense, and I question his conditioning. I think the long season is going to be harder for him to keep up with. I have no doubt that he will have a long, productive career in front of him, I just don't think his rookie year will be what some people are expecting it to be.

UrinalCake
04-23-2014, 09:31 AM
These are interesting numbers, at least in relation to Goodman's take from the previous page. Goodman supposedly asked someone from each NBA franchise. Well, why ask the Spurs/Thunder/Heat/Pacers, who have probably given the question about .5 seconds of thought? There is about a 0.0001% chance that any of those teams would have the option.

I'm sure those teams have at least contemplated the notion of trading a player for a high draft pick. As such, they would have to evaluate how good they think these guys are and where they would rank them relative to each other. So I bet the non-lottery teams have thought about it for more than .5 seconds. Maybe only 10 seconds, but still, their opinion isn't completely meaningless.

_Gary
04-23-2014, 10:05 AM
Of course this is going to sound very "homerish", but any team that doesn't pick Jabari as early as they can is going to regret it. He's the cream of this class. Nothing against the other guys, but I truly believe he's going to be the star of this draft. NBA GMs will draft around him at their own risk.

CDu
04-23-2014, 10:11 AM
I am going to try really hard to remember this next year so we can see how our guesses panned out. There is a lot of basketball to play until then. I just think he is going to have trouble since his game is mostly offense, and I question his conditioning. I think the long season is going to be harder for him to keep up with. I have no doubt that he will have a long, productive career in front of him, I just don't think his rookie year will be what some people are expecting it to be.

That's all well and good. But making statements like "he won't be rookie of the year, not by a long shot" seem incredibly bold without any suggestion of whom would clearly beat him out. EVERY rookie has question marks coming into the season. Conditioning and the length of the season are going to be issues for pretty much every rookie.

Parker may very well not win rookie of the year next year. But I think he's as likely (if not moreso) to do so than any other rookie next year.

kAzE
04-23-2014, 10:14 AM
Of course this is going to sound very "homerish", but any team that doesn't pick Jabari as early as they can is going to regret it. He's the cream of this class. Nothing against the other guys, but I truly believe he's going to be the star of this draft. NBA GMs will draft around him at their own risk.

He's the most polished, most skilled player in the class. I think it's safe to assume that he will be among the best, if not the best offensive player in this class. I believe he's the heavy favorite to win rookie of the year, but there's no denying that Wiggins and Embiid (and possibly even Exum) have just as much, if not more potential because of their ability to do it on both ends (if they reach their ceiling). I would take Jabari #1, but I can see why those other guys are being considered ahead of him.

TexHawk
04-23-2014, 10:58 AM
I'm sure those teams have at least contemplated the notion of trading a player for a high draft pick. As such, they would have to evaluate how good they think these guys are and where they would rank them relative to each other. So I bet the non-lottery teams have thought about it for more than .5 seconds. Maybe only 10 seconds, but still, their opinion isn't completely meaningless.

You are right, .5 seconds was worder weirdly. I meant to say that a team like Philly probably rented apartments in Raleigh, Lexington, and Lawrence last summer, knowing how many scouts would be needed in those places. The Spurs probably didn't.

In another way, the opinions of well-run teams may be more meaningful. I mean, regardless of team draft position, if you need advice about a player, who would go to? Sam Presti/RC Buford? Or whoever is running the Kings or Bucks?

CameronBornAndBred
04-23-2014, 11:58 AM
That's all well and good. But making statements like "he won't be rookie of the year, not by a long shot" seem incredibly bold without any suggestion of whom would clearly beat him out. EVERY rookie has question marks coming into the season. Conditioning and the length of the season are going to be issues for pretty much every rookie.

Parker may very well not win rookie of the year next year. But I think he's as likely (if not moreso) to do so than any other rookie next year.
I like making bold predictions. :) Other names that I could see beating him out are Wiggins, Embiid, Smart, our own Rodney Hood (who as I have said before I feel is more ready), Ennis....and here is a name for you, PJ Hairston, who has had a few months to get accustomed to the speed of the game and done well at it.
But I really have no idea who it will be. I just don't think it will be Jabari. I hope I'm wrong, it will be fun if he is.

CDu
04-23-2014, 12:09 PM
I like making bold predictions. :) Other names that I could see beating him out are Wiggins, Embiid, Smart, our own Rodney Hood (who as I have said before I feel is more ready), Ennis....and here is a name for you, PJ Hairston, who has had a few months to get accustomed to the speed of the game and done well at it.
But I really have no idea who it will be. I just don't think it will be Jabari. I hope I'm wrong, it will be fun if he is.

Any of those guys could beat Parker out. I'm not sure I would predict that any of those guys would beat Parker out. Nor would I say he's a long shot to win it. One could make the same comments about concerns with those other guys:

Embiid: very unpolished and has back issues
Wiggins: very unpolished offensively; not a great shooter; award usually goes to a scorer
Hood: a bit on the soft side; likely to be pigeon-holed early in his career as a catch-and-shoot guy; could wind up on a good team playing too small a role
Ennis: too small; not enough of a scorer to win the award
Smart: lacks a true position (is he a sloppy PG who can score or an inefficient SG who can pass?)
Hairston: likely to be drafted late in the first round, which will reduce his impact as a rookie (due to better players ahead of him); not quite as talented as Parker

I mean, "the field" is probably favored over Parker at this point. But I'd be shocked if Parker wasn't at least very much in the mix for the award.

tommy
04-23-2014, 12:13 PM
Yeah, especially given Noel's lack of weight. I could easily see him playing at the PF spot next to Embiid at C. Having two bigs is working for the Wizards right now with Nene and Gortat, and it is working for the Spurs with Duncan and Splitter.

Ideally, one of the two will develop a bit of a face-up game. But both are mobile enough to defend the PF spot, and they'd be a nightmare of a shotblocking tandem.

Oh I agree they'd be a terrific tandem defensively at the 4-5. But the problem would be offensively. Embiid showed some back to the basket skills this year at Kansas, but Noel really didn't show much offensively at all at Kentucky, and what he did have (other than follows, dunks, alley-oops, etc.) was back to the basket too. Neither of these guys has shown the ability to face the basket and either shoot or drive past a guy, certainly not at the level they'd need to in order to be effective at the 4 spot in the NBA.

So in that situation, when you've got a highly skilled, highly polished offensive player like Jabari on the board, whose natural position is a position of need, and who already has an NBA body and is a high character guy as well, why wouldn't you take him? Same goes for Wiggins, but without the fully mature body. Not sure why you'd pass up either of those possibly all-star level players for another guy, also a possible all-star level talent but who not only is hurt but is at least somewhat duplicative of one of your pre-existing building blocks for the future.

superdave
04-23-2014, 01:14 PM
Oh I agree they'd be a terrific tandem defensively at the 4-5. But the problem would be offensively. Embiid showed some back to the basket skills this year at Kansas, but Noel really didn't show much offensively at all at Kentucky, and what he did have (other than follows, dunks, alley-oops, etc.) was back to the basket too. Neither of these guys has shown the ability to face the basket and either shoot or drive past a guy, certainly not at the level they'd need to in order to be effective at the 4 spot in the NBA.

So in that situation, when you've got a highly skilled, highly polished offensive player like Jabari on the board, whose natural position is a position of need, and who already has an NBA body and is a high character guy as well, why wouldn't you take him? Same goes for Wiggins, but without the fully mature body. Not sure why you'd pass up either of those possibly all-star level players for another guy, also a possible all-star level talent but who not only is hurt but is at least somewhat duplicative of one of your pre-existing building blocks for the future.

What if you happen to think Embiid is the second coming of Tim Duncan? Then you take him and figure it out later.

If you think that about Embiid, you tell yourself that Duncan and David Robinson played well together.

Wait for Embiid's workouts - see if they dont compare him to Duncan and Olajuwon. I just think GMs are going to have man-crushes on the guy (assuming he's healthy).

FerryFor50
04-23-2014, 01:21 PM
Oh I agree they'd be a terrific tandem defensively at the 4-5. But the problem would be offensively. Embiid showed some back to the basket skills this year at Kansas, but Noel really didn't show much offensively at all at Kentucky, and what he did have (other than follows, dunks, alley-oops, etc.) was back to the basket too. Neither of these guys has shown the ability to face the basket and either shoot or drive past a guy, certainly not at the level they'd need to in order to be effective at the 4 spot in the NBA.


I disagree. Embiid showed a nice jump shot at Kansas. And his FT % was pretty good for a big (68.5%).

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/joel-embiid-1.html

Embiid reminds me a lot of Serge Ibaka.

flyingdutchdevil
04-23-2014, 01:23 PM
What if you happen to think Embiid is the second coming of Tim Duncan? Then you take him and figure it out later.

If you think that about Embiid, you tell yourself that Duncan and David Robinson played well together.

Wait for Embiid's workouts - see if they dont compare him to Duncan and Olajuwon. I just think GMs are going to have man-crushes on the guy (assuming he's healthy).

With either Wiggins or Embiid, some GM is going to lose his job. I'm putting money on that now.

I think one of the players will be an absolute stud and the other will be an MKG/Darko-type player - good, but not good enough to justify a top 3 pick. The thing is, I have no idea which one it will be.

That's why I think Jabari is just a low-risk prospect: he's gonna give you at least 15 points per game. His upside isn't as high as either Embiid or Wiggins, but he's a safe pick.

sagegrouse
04-23-2014, 01:54 PM
With either Wiggins or Embiid, some GM is going to lose his job. I'm putting money on that now.

I think one of the players will be an absolute stud and the other will be an MKG/Darko-type player - good, but not good enough to justify a top 3 pick. The thing is, I have no idea which one it will be.

That's why I think Jabari is just a low-risk prospect: he's gonna give you at least 15 points per game. His upside isn't as high as either Embiid or Wiggins, but he's a safe pick.

Not that this would affect a decision :rolleyes:, but Jabari is the best-known player in college today. If he does at all well out of the gate, he's gonna sell some tickets.

Des Esseintes
04-23-2014, 01:54 PM
With either Wiggins or Embiid, some GM is going to lose his job. I'm putting money on that now.

I think one of the players will be an absolute stud and the other will be an MKG/Darko-type player - good, but not good enough to justify a top 3 pick. The thing is, I have no idea which one it will be.

That's why I think Jabari is just a low-risk prospect: he's gonna give you at least 15 points per game. His upside isn't as high as either Embiid or Wiggins, but he's a safe pick.

That logic sounds nice--until you put it into application. Glenn Robinson got taken #1 overall in 1994, in large part because his offensive game was furthest along. Big Dog was always going to get you 15 points! And he did. Thing was, Grant Hill and Jason Kidd went 2 and 3 behind him.

You're picking at the top of the draft. The goal is to win a title. Get the best ceiling, not the best floor.

TexHawk
04-23-2014, 02:40 PM
With either Wiggins or Embiid, some GM is going to lose his job. I'm putting money on that now.

I think one of the players will be an absolute stud and the other will be an MKG/Darko-type player - good, but not good enough to justify a top 3 pick. The thing is, I have no idea which one it will be.

That's why I think Jabari is just a low-risk prospect: he's gonna give you at least 15 points per game. His upside isn't as high as either Embiid or Wiggins, but he's a safe pick.

Parker is more ready to score in the NBA, that is not a doubt.

But again, some of you are talking about Wiggins like he's Kwame Brown 2.0, and only being drafted on his athleticism and potential. The guy played a year of CBB too, and scored slightly less than Parker (on less shots, Wiggins's ORtg was higher). He scored 26 points in Gainesville on the 2nd best defense in the country, he scored 30 on fellow lottery pick Marcus Smart, 41 on WVU without Embiid taking attention. He scored 3 more ppg than Nik Stauskas. The only guys in the lottery who had better offensive stats than Wiggins were Parker and McDermott. Wiggins isn't Parker, but he is far from untested against NCAA defenses.

(In his one year of college, MKG averaged less than 12 ppg, scoring over 20 points just twice.)

Like I said before, if you want to make a Darko-like comparison, I can see it with Embiid. He got hurt a couple times, played in only 28 games, at less than 23 mpg (Wiggins played 33 mpg, including all 45 against Okla State). Embiid is almost solely going to be drafted on his potential, and that's what makes this hard.

You are free to bet on that, history shows you are somewhat likely to be correct. I am just confused why so many lump Wiggins/Embiid together solely because they played on the same team. Their games, style, history could not be further apart.

flyingdutchdevil
04-23-2014, 03:29 PM
Parker is more ready to score in the NBA, that is not a doubt.

But again, some of you are talking about Wiggins like he's Kwame Brown 2.0, and only being drafted on his athleticism and potential. The guy played a year of CBB too, and scored slightly less than Parker (on less shots, Wiggins's ORtg was higher). He scored 26 points in Gainesville on the 2nd best defense in the country, he scored 30 on fellow lottery pick Marcus Smart, 41 on WVU without Embiid taking attention. He scored 3 more ppg than Nik Stauskas. The only guys in the lottery who had better offensive stats than Wiggins were Parker and McDermott. Wiggins isn't Parker, but he is far from untested against NCAA defenses.

(In his one year of college, MKG averaged less than 12 ppg, scoring over 20 points just twice.)

Like I said before, if you want to make a Darko-like comparison, I can see it with Embiid. He got hurt a couple times, played in only 28 games, at less than 23 mpg (Wiggins played 33 mpg, including all 45 against Okla State). Embiid is almost solely going to be drafted on his potential, and that's what makes this hard.

You are free to bet on that, history shows you are somewhat likely to be correct. I am just confused why so many lump Wiggins/Embiid together solely because they played on the same team. Their games, style, history could not be further apart.

Firstly, I'm not lumping Wiggins and Embiid together because they played on the same team. I am lumping them together because they are going to be drafted on potential. You aren't going to find one person in the NBA who thinks that Embiid or Wiggins is better than Parker right now. That's pretty much a fact. What isn't a fact is that Wiggins and/or Embiid will be better than Parker. That is an assumption, and an assumption based on potential.

Wiggins scored via two ways: 3pt shots and insane athleticism (I'm simplifying it, but that's that). And he wasn't a great 3pt shooter at 34%. His athleticism will be elite in the NBA, but everyone is athletic in the NBA so it remains to be seen if Wiggins's athleticism will give him an edge (I am optimistic it will). Also, Wiggins has fire, but it's an inconsistent fire. He often fades in games. He can get shut down. The one thing that Wiggins has, which is why he'll stay in the league for 15+ years, it incredible D. I will absolutely give him that. But a consistent scorer? As of now, I'm suspect.

flyingdutchdevil
04-23-2014, 03:31 PM
That logic sounds nice--until you put it into application. Glenn Robinson got taken #1 overall in 1994, in large part because his offensive game was furthest along. Big Dog was always going to get you 15 points! And he did. Thing was, Grant Hill and Jason Kidd went 2 and 3 behind him.

You're picking at the top of the draft. The goal is to win a title. Get the best ceiling, not the best floor.

On the flip side, Detroit went with potential with the 2nd overall pick in the 2003 draft. How did that work it? The street flows both ways (is that a saying?). Detroit could have ended up with more of a sure thing, like Melo or Wade. But they went with upside.

Des Esseintes
04-23-2014, 03:54 PM
Firstly, I'm not lumping Wiggins and Embiid together because they played on the same team. I am lumping them together because they are going to be drafted on potential.
Everyone is drafted based on potential.


You aren't going to find one person in the NBA who thinks that Embiid or Wiggins is better than Parker right now. That's pretty much a fact.
That's pretty much not a fact. I guarantee you there NBA types who feel that Wiggins was just as impressive as Parker this season. Wiggins scored somewhat below Parker's average but brought elite defense on the wing. Plenty of people think that's more valuable *right now*. Never mind four years down the road.


Wiggins scored via two ways: 3pt shots and insane athleticism (I'm simplifying it, but that's that).
First of all, you don't score *with* athleticism. You have to use it. You have drive to the hoop, and maybe athleticism gives you an edge there. Or you leap over your opponent to snag a rebound. Or you outrun the opposition in transition. Or you have enough lift on your jumpshot to keep the defender from contesting. All these count as *one* way to score? You're right. You're simplifying. And regardless, did Shaq have more than two ways to score?


On the flip side, Detroit went with potential with the 2nd overall pick in the 2003 draft. How did that work it? The street flows both ways (is that a saying?). Detroit could have ended up with more of a sure thing, like Melo or Wade. But they went with upside.
Darko was one of the all-time bad scouting evals. It's well-known that when faced with two guy of equivalent ceiling, teams generally pick the big man because it's rarer. That helps Embiid here, but not Wiggins. In any case, Cleveland was right to pick physical-speciment-with-supreme-tools LeBron, who was a high school guy and hadn't "proven" anything, or smooth-as-silk NCAA champion Melo. Cleveland had to take the local boy, but perhaps another franchise would have thought hard about it and gotten the choice wrong. Certainly there were some media types who suggested Anthony was the safer choice.

tommy
04-23-2014, 04:28 PM
What if you happen to think Embiid is the second coming of Tim Duncan? Then you take him and figure it out later.

If you think that about Embiid, you tell yourself that Duncan and David Robinson played well together.

Wait for Embiid's workouts - see if they dont compare him to Duncan and Olajuwon. I just think GMs are going to have man-crushes on the guy (assuming he's healthy).

Well, that GM might be risking his job on being right on that. Tim Duncan and Hakeem Olajuwon each played four years of elite college hoops before entering the NBA. Both were much more known quantities than is Embiid. They had a lot more experience than does Embiid. Both had already proven that they had a range of offensive skills both facing the basket and putting their backs to the basket, before entering the NBA. Neither was entering the league coming off a significant injury to his back, an area which can prove to be problematic for the rest of one's career, worst case. It may turn out that Embiid is an all-time great, like those two. But the chances are just as great that Parker and/or Wiggins are all-time greats, and those guys seem to have higher floors than does Embiid and they both play a position of major, major need for the Sixers.

TexHawk
04-23-2014, 04:32 PM
Wiggins scored via two ways: 3pt shots and insane athleticism (I'm simplifying it, but that's that). And he wasn't a great 3pt shooter at 34%. His athleticism will be elite in the NBA, but everyone is athletic in the NBA so it remains to be seen if Wiggins's athleticism will give him an edge (I am optimistic it will). Also, Wiggins has fire, but it's an inconsistent fire. He often fades in games. He can get shut down. The one thing that Wiggins has, which is why he'll stay in the league for 15+ years, it incredible D. I will absolutely give him that. But a consistent scorer? As of now, I'm suspect.

Wiggins scored 22% of his points from three-point range. 30% from the free throw line. So I don't know how you gauge "athleticism", but 48% came from somewhere else. He averaged about 2 offensive rebounds a game, so that might be a couple. Also, after the turn of the New Year, when conference play started, Wiggins hit 37% of his threes (compared to 30% for Parker).

And has been mentioned, defense needs to be considered somehow.

Let's say I were to rank a few guys based on offense/defense.



player
offense
defense


Parker
1
20(?)


Wiggins
3
1


Embiid
20(?)
2


Randle
7
7


McDermott
2
250



Of course, that doesn't show how much better Parker is offensively, or Wiggins is defensively, but how is that a "fact" that one is clearly better?