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drcharl
03-30-2014, 03:16 PM
Can't remember the last time a 3 second rule violation was called (you get plenty of time to camp out and have a picnic). That has to be the most ignored rule. I nominate the traveling rule as the second most ignored rule. In the first half of the Conn - Mich St game on now the announcer said at one point "that was close to a traveling call", but again nothing was called. Usually, when it is called it is a big guy shuffling his feet in close to the basket, but players driving to the basket are given wide wide latitude with respect to this rule. I swear sometimes it seems like at least 3 steps.

CR9
03-30-2014, 03:23 PM
I don't think I've ever seen 3 in the key called in college. Hell, I've only ever seen it once or twice in the NBA. I'd say handchecking is incredibly subjective based on crew, and it shouldn't be.

CameronBornAndBred
03-30-2014, 03:29 PM
Palming.

FerryFor50
03-30-2014, 03:31 PM
Can't remember the last time a 3 second rule violation was called (you get plenty of time to camp out and have a picnic). That has to be the most ignored rule. I nominate the traveling rule as the second most ignored rule. In the first half of the Conn - Mich St game on now the announcer said at one point "that was close to a traveling call", but again nothing was called. Usually, when it is called it is a big guy shuffling his feet in close to the basket, but players driving to the basket are given wide wide latitude with respect to this rule. I swear sometimes it seems like at least 3 steps.

I don't know - Duke was called for 6 travels against Mercer. :mad:

uh_no
03-30-2014, 03:55 PM
Can't remember the last time a 3 second rule violation was called (you get plenty of time to camp out and have a picnic). That has to be the most ignored rule.

two things about it:

1) it's extremely hard to keep track of....,.refs are already keeping track of 5 second count, players pivot foots, dribbling, oh and not to mention all the other things to keep track of....it's nearly impossible to also count how long each ot 10 players might have been in the paint

2)it only takes one foot outside of the paint to avoid the call, effectively, since if you "shuffle" the other foot, then you've effectively lifted the foot and are not in the paint....players do this more often than fans realize...

combine the fact that there aren't necessarily as many 3 point violations as fans see, and teh fact that they're very difficult for refs to spot when they do happen gives you a call you'll rarely see

18258
03-30-2014, 03:57 PM
Palming, all the time, never gets called, but they all do it, and I second traveling, even my young son says dad they walk a lot, why don't they call it, smh I guess, but it is funny when the point guard or whoever has the ball at the top takes about 4 steps without a dribble right in front of the ref and they don't say it, you have to laugh

CR9
03-30-2014, 04:00 PM
Just thought of another; hooking. Only called once in a blue moon but happens almost every trip.

CameronBornAndBred
03-30-2014, 04:02 PM
Just thought of another; hooking. Only called once in a blue moon but happens almost every trip.
The refs have no control over what happens outside the stadium. ;)

Jarhead
03-30-2014, 04:18 PM
two things about it:

1) it's extremely hard to keep track of....,.refs are already keeping track of 5 second count, players pivot foots, dribbling, oh and not to mention all the other things to keep track of....it's nearly impossible to also count how long each ot 10 players might have been in the paint

2)it only takes one foot outside of the paint to avoid the call, effectively, since if you "shuffle" the other foot, then you've effectively lifted the foot and are not in the paint....players do this more often than fans realize...

combine the fact that there aren't necessarily as many 3 point violations as fans see, and teh fact that they're very difficult for refs to spot when they do happen gives you a call you'll rarely see

I've never seen a three point violation called.

uh_no
03-30-2014, 04:23 PM
I've never seen a three point violation called.

have you seen one occur? that's the point....that they hardly ever actually occur, so you would expect to see the called very rarely.

CameronBornAndBred
03-30-2014, 04:25 PM
have you seen one occur? that's the point....that they hardly ever actually occur, so you would expect to see the called very rarely.
They NEVER occur.:D

CameronBlue
03-30-2014, 04:50 PM
I've never seen a three point violation called.

They called it once, maybe twice in the women's game against the Tools In Cameron...or one of the women's games this year, notable for its rarity on the women's side as well.

burnspbesq
03-30-2014, 04:53 PM
Have you ever seen a five-second call against a team that rolls the ball in to save time on the clock when trying to catch up late in a game?

Neither have I, but I've seen at least a half-dozen violations this year.

Jarhead
03-30-2014, 04:55 PM
have you seen one occur? that's the point....that they hardly ever actually occur, so you would expect to see the called very rarely.

In some states it is a three point violation if you drive one to nine miles per hour over the posted speed limit. Is that what you are talking about? I haven't seen that called, ever, in North Carolina. In Virginia it's part of the pack line defense which works quite well.

FerryFor50
03-30-2014, 05:44 PM
Have you ever seen a five-second call against a team that rolls the ball in to save time on the clock when trying to catch up late in a game?

Neither have I, but I've seen at least a half-dozen violations this year.

Very good point. Definitely a gray area when this is done...

-jk
03-30-2014, 06:26 PM
Have you ever seen a five-second call against a team that rolls the ball in to save time on the clock when trying to catch up late in a game?

Neither have I, but I've seen at least a half-dozen violations this year.

Ball just has to be released by the inbounder within 5 seconds. No requirement that it be picked up. (That was the rule years ago, though.)

-jk

Indoor66
03-30-2014, 06:32 PM
They called it once, maybe twice in the women's game against the Tools In Cameron...or one of the women's games this year, notable for its rarity on the women's side as well.

Based on dress, they used to be able to call it every game for the holes.

luburch
03-30-2014, 06:55 PM
two things about it:

1) it's extremely hard to keep track of....,.refs are already keeping track of 5 second count, players pivot foots, dribbling, oh and not to mention all the other things to keep track of....it's nearly impossible to also count how long each ot 10 players might have been in the paint

2)it only takes one foot outside of the paint to avoid the call, effectively, since if you "shuffle" the other foot, then you've effectively lifted the foot and are not in the paint....players do this more often than fans realize...

combine the fact that there aren't necessarily as many 3 point violations as fans see, and teh fact that they're very difficult for refs to spot when they do happen gives you a call you'll rarely see

Once you've established both feet in the lane, both feet must also leave the lane. Only moving one foot outside of the lane does not reset the count. Or at least that's my understanding.

uh_no
03-30-2014, 07:35 PM
Once you've established both feet in the lane, both feet must also leave the lane. Only moving one foot outside of the lane does not reset the count. Or at least that's my understanding.

My understanding was that one foot out of the lane and the other in the air was kosher. ...

-jk
03-30-2014, 08:07 PM
My understanding was that one foot out of the lane and the other in the air was kosher. ...

The rule is ambiguous. I can't find a good clarification on the phrase, "any part of his body remain in the three-second lane". Is it the "breaking the plane" of defending a thrower-in or more like "both feet and the ball" establishing frontcourt status? It's not in the rule book or the case book that I can find. I suspect they mean you have to get your self past the plane. Mostly. (The spirit of the thing.)

Rule 9. Section 10. Three Seconds In The Lane

Art. 1. The three-second lane is the area in the front court that is bounded by the end line, the free-throw lane lines and the free-throw line, and includes such lines.

Art. 2. It is a violation for a player to have any part of his body remain in the three-second lane for more than three consecutive seconds while the ball is in control of that player’s team in his front court.

a. The three-second violation rule is not in effect when a team is in control of the ball for a throw-in.

Art. 3. The three-second count is suspended when a player who, having been in the three-second lane for less than three seconds, dribbles or moves in immediately to try for field goal. The player shall not pass the ball instead of trying for goal. In this case, it is a violation when a player exceeds three seconds in the lane and there is no try for goal.

-jk

gus
03-30-2014, 09:12 PM
I think three second violations don't occur very often. A lot of fans forget Art. 3: if after receiving the ball the player moves towards the goal, or attempts a shot once receiving the ball, it's not a violation.

I'm sure if you spend time looking, you'll see players who paint the corners of the key for more than 3 seconds (e.g., out by the ft line), but I'd argue there are more important things for the refs to pay attention to than that.

uh_no
03-30-2014, 09:27 PM
while certianly open to interpretation in a vacuum, I think when taken in the context of the rest of the rulebook, it's fairly clear.

FIrst, we must consider that positioning in the air is almost always irrelevent. Out of bounds, backcourt, three point, foul shots are all determined by the players contact with the floor. The two exceptions I am aware of are

1) the defender of an inbounds may not cross the plane of the OOB line
2) a player may not be above the charge circle for a charge to be called

and the rulebook is extremely explicit in these cases:

1)


b. No opponent of the thrower-in shall have any part of his or her person over
the inside plane of the boundary line

the rulebook specifically talks about crossing the plane.

2)
. A secondary
defender is considered to be in the restricted area when any part of either foot is in
or above this area.

the rulebook specifically mentions being above this area.


as there is no mention of "plane" or "above the area" I think the only valid interpretation of the 3 second call can be that a player without a foot (or other body part) down in the key is in the clear.

luburch
03-30-2014, 11:58 PM
Another thing that my 8th grade coach pointed out to me long ago and I have found quirky ever since is that when you step on the end/side line you are out-of-bounds. When you throw the ball in and step on the line you are stepping in-bounds. Just a little odd.

uh_no
03-31-2014, 12:52 AM
Another thing that my 8th grade coach pointed out to me long ago and I have found quirky ever since is that when you step on the end/side line you are out-of-bounds. When you throw the ball in and step on the line you are stepping in-bounds. Just a little odd.

hate to break the news to you, but your 8th grade coach lied.....

while the rulebook requires that if lines are used, they are 2", it goes on to state


Instead of the 2-inch boundaries listed on the diagram, it is legal to use
contrasting-colored floor areas by painting the out-of-bounds area, the center
circle, and the free-throw lanes and lines so that the mathematical line between
the two colors is the boundary. Such a contrasting-colored out-of-bounds belt
should be at least 8 inches wide.

so instead of a line, you can simply paint the out of bounds a different color...and therefore you would always be standing on the "line" since it covers all the out of bounds area

further, there is no provision that a player in-bounding a ball after a made basket can not step on the line, only that they not step on the playing court. It in fact is quite explicit that the player may be at any point out of bounds, which would include the width of the endline


The team not credited with the score shall make the throw-in from the end
of the court where the goal was made and it shall make the throw-in from
any point out of bounds on the end line when the following occur


so there is no evidence that the quirks in the rules your coach pointed out are anything other than apocryphal

eddiehaskell
03-31-2014, 04:52 AM
Palming.Yep. Sometimes it looks like I see this 500x per game. I believe it's Rodney Hood that always looks like he is palming as he dribbles.

If this was actually called, the game of basketball would probably look totally different. Imagine everyone dribbling like Bob Cousywith their hands on top of the ball.

UrinalCake
03-31-2014, 10:54 AM
Second most ignored rule has to be moving screens. Drives me nuts every time I see it. I think every one of Joe Harris's jump shots in the Acct final came off a moving screen, except for that big three in transition. They show the replay and it's so blatant but the announcers never bother to mention it.

The only time it's ever called is if the defender coming around the screen sells it by acting like his head is being removed by the screener. Otherwise the refs act completely blind.

johnb
03-31-2014, 04:44 PM
Slightly off topic:

A technical for dunking the ball pre game? Ever seen it before this post season?

The elbow to the head? Refs are really not supposed to use their judgment?

I'd also like a foul for faking, as in soccer. I think we'd have won the first Syracuse game, though that seems a long time ago.

TruBlu
03-31-2014, 04:53 PM
Coaches Box? I do not believe (could be wrong) that it extends out onto the playing court while teams are playing.

CameronBornAndBred
03-31-2014, 04:55 PM
Coaches Box? I do not believe (could be wrong) that it extends out onto the playing court while teams are playing.
If you perform a strip tease while stepping out, the refs are more likely to call you for it.

DukieInKansas
03-31-2014, 11:29 PM
Coaches Box? I do not believe (could be wrong) that it extends out onto the playing court while teams are playing.

That drives me crazy. I would love to see one of his own players run into him and knock him on his butt. (Him being whichever coach is 3 feet out on the floor.)

Rich
04-01-2014, 11:57 AM
Ball just has to be released by the inbounder within 5 seconds. No requirement that it be picked up. (That was the rule years ago, though.)

-jk

I thought the 5 second count INCLUDES the time it takes for the player on the court to receive it. That was my understanding of the rule.

hurleyfor3
04-01-2014, 12:06 PM
I thought the 5 second count INCLUDES the time it takes for the player on the court to receive it. That was my understanding of the rule.

Rule 7, Section 6, Article 3. "The thrower-in shall release the ball within five seconds so that the pass goes directly into the playing court." Every other rule in basketball works this way, otherwise Kentucky fans wouldn't still be hating Laettner.

Naismith's original rule 9: "When the ball goes out of bounds, it shall be thrown into the field of play and played by the first person touching it. In case of dispute the umpire shall throw it straight into the field. The thrower-in is allowed five seconds. If he holds it longer, it shall go to the opponent." Meaning you have five seconds to throw it in, not five seconds for someone to catch it.

CameronBornAndBred
04-01-2014, 12:07 PM
I thought the 5 second count INCLUDES the time it takes for the player on the court to receive it. That was my understanding of the rule.
That would make sense. You can get called for 5 seconds if you fail to inbound the ball, and in that case no time goes off the game clock as well. That's the point of rolling it in, more time to play with.

uh_no
04-01-2014, 12:20 PM
That would make sense. You can get called for 5 seconds if you fail to inbound the ball, and in that case no time goes off the game clock as well. That's the point of rolling it in, more time to play with.

Not exactly. ... if you consider rolling it in and picking it up around midcoirt, yoy could just as easily pass it to the same spot. The real benefit of rolling out lies in the fact that the inbounder also had the opportunity to get up the floor before the clock starts allowing you to initiate offense with less time coming off the clock.

CameronBornAndBred
04-01-2014, 12:34 PM
Not exactly. ... if you consider rolling it in and picking it up around midcoirt, yoy could just as easily pass it to the same spot. The real benefit of rolling out lies in the fact that the inbounder also had the opportunity to get up the floor before the clock starts allowing you to initiate offense with less time coming off the clock.
That makes lots of sense too.

Henderson
04-01-2014, 12:47 PM
Rule 7, Section 6, Article 3. "The thrower-in shall release the ball within five seconds so that the pass goes directly into the playing court." Every other rule in basketball works this way, otherwise Kentucky fans wouldn't still be hating Laettner.

Naismith's original rule 9: "When the ball goes out of bounds, it shall be thrown into the field of play and played by the first person touching it. In case of dispute the umpire shall throw it straight into the field. The thrower-in is allowed five seconds. If he holds it longer, it shall go to the opponent." Meaning you have five seconds to throw it in, not five seconds for someone to catch it.

I think it's funny that the rules refer repeatedly to a "thrower-in".

If you make an errant pass into the stands, are you a thrower-out? How is that person different from an official who ejects a coach or player?

Is the official who starts the game a thrower-up?

If the same official ejects a fan for vomiting on the opposing bench, is he the thrower-up thrower-up-thrower-out?

What if that official ejects a fan for vomiting on a player trying to get the ball in? Is he then a thrower up thrower in thrower up thrower up thrower out?

DevilHorse
04-01-2014, 01:14 PM
I think the Coach's Box Technical rarely gets called, and not because it doesn't get noticed. There must be a clause that you must acrue a certain amount of yelling or "being obnoxious" points before it gets called on you. Mostly the refs seem to stare at the coach and point toward the floor, or mouth that they really don't want to give them a technical foul, as they herd the coach back into the box. Unless of course they have acrued enough points..

Larry
DevilHorse

DukeandMdFan
04-01-2014, 11:08 PM
Palming, all the time, never gets called, but they all do it, and I second traveling, even my young son says dad they walk a lot, why don't they call it, smh I guess, but it is funny when the point guard or whoever has the ball at the top takes about 4 steps without a dribble right in front of the ref and they don't say it, you have to laugh

Rule 4-13 Art 4:
Art. 4. The dribble ends when:
a. The dribbler catches or carries/palms the ball by allowing it to come to rest
in one or both hands;
b. The dribbler touches the ball with both hands simultaneously;
c. An opponent bats the ball; or
d. The ball becomes dead.
By rule, it isn't carrying/palming unless the ball comes to rest.

I attended a basketball officials camp where a guest speaker who was a long-time NBA ref was asked why traveling wasn't called more often in the NBA. His reply was that they've watched the calls made by NBA officials on videotape and traveling is called correctly at the NBA level. Basically, the dribbler can take as many steps as he wants until the dribble ends, but most fans have a different interpretation of the dribble ending than the officials. Most fans start counting steps when they see the ball touch the dribbler's hand, but the dribble doesn't end when the ball touches the hand. (He did not speak of any calls involving Tyler Hansbrough.)

DukeandMdFan
04-01-2014, 11:19 PM
The Offical Forum has been referenced on a few occasions on this forum. Some of you may enjoy this topic on the Most Misunderstood Basketball Rules and "if you're not careful, you may learn something before its done.";)


http://forum.officiating.com/basketball/36234-most-misunderstood-basketball-rules.html

uh_no
04-01-2014, 11:57 PM
The Offical Forum has been referenced on a few occasions on this forum. Some of you may enjoy this topic on the Most Misunderstood Basketball Rules and "if you're not careful, you may learn something before its done.";)


http://forum.officiating.com/basketball/36234-most-misunderstood-basketball-rules.html

some of those are either incorrect or outdated.

1) once the ball hits the backboard, regardless of whether it was travelling upwards or downwards, the defense cannot touch it, lest basket interference get called....this was changed a few years ago

2)"The shooter and all the players in the designated lane spaces must wait until the ball hits rim or backboard before entering the lane." is flat out wrong....

"e. No player shall enter or leave a marked lane space or contact any part of
the court outside the marked lane space until the free-thrower has released
the ball."

DukeandMdFan
04-02-2014, 07:21 AM
some of those are either incorrect or outdated.

1) once the ball hits the backboard, regardless of whether it was travelling upwards or downwards, the defense cannot touch it, lest basket interference get called....this was changed a few years ago

2)"The shooter and all the players in the designated lane spaces must wait until the ball hits rim or backboard before entering the lane." is flat out wrong....

"e. No player shall enter or leave a marked lane space or contact any part of
the court outside the marked lane space until the free-thrower has released
the ball."

You're right - the list was made according to high school rules.

CameronBornAndBred
04-02-2014, 08:45 AM
2)"The shooter and all the players in the designated lane spaces must wait until the ball hits rim or backboard before entering the lane." is flat out wrong....

I don't think so. One of the Duke women in their last game got called for exactly that. She shot, then entered the lane before the ball reached the rim, and the point was waived off. The announcers explained it.

-jk
04-02-2014, 08:49 AM
I don't think so. One of the Duke women in their last game got called for exactly that. She shot, then entered the lane before the ball reached the rim, and the point was waived off. The announcers explained it.

The free-thrower can't enter the lane until after the ball hits the rim. The rebounders can enter on release.

-jk

pfrduke
04-02-2014, 09:17 AM
The free-thrower can't enter the lane until after the ball hits the rim. The rebounders can enter on release.

-jk

TJ Warren got a key free throw waved off because he did precisely that in the St. Louis game.

CameronBornAndBred
04-02-2014, 09:19 AM
The free-thrower can't enter the lane until after the ball hits the rim. The rebounders can enter on release.

-jk
Right. His statement (well the rule, not his statement) began with "the shooter".

CDu
04-02-2014, 09:47 AM
Right. His statement (well the rule, not his statement) began with "the shooter".

But the rule itself (as reported) is not applicable to college basketball. Doesn't matter whether it began with "the shooter" or "all of the other players". The inclusion of the other players makes the rule (as it is written) wrong for college basketball.

It is, however, correct for high school basketball (at least in North Carolina).

jay
04-02-2014, 10:12 AM
Have you ever seen a five-second call against a team that rolls the ball in to save time on the clock when trying to catch up late in a game?



Huh? How is this a violation?

jay
04-02-2014, 10:14 AM
I think three second violations don't occur very often. A lot of fans forget Art. 3: if after receiving the ball the player moves towards the goal, or attempts a shot once receiving the ball, it's not a violation.

I'm sure if you spend time looking, you'll see players who paint the corners of the key for more than 3 seconds (e.g., out by the ft line), but I'd argue there are more important things for the refs to pay attention to than that.

This.

Also, three-second rule ends once the ball has been released on a shot. And the count doesn't start until the ball crosses halfcourt.

All of these, combined with the fact that the refs are usually talking to the players and encouraging them to get out of the lane means in college basketball it's going to be once in a blue moon when you see a 3 second violation.