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JNort
03-22-2014, 12:34 AM
Will he stay or will he go? I know it's early and I would have preferred to wait till after the tournament but... Per ESPN breaking news: "Duke F Jabari Parker says after game that his career is incomplete and that loss could affect his decision about whether to return to Duke next season"

It's not much but it is something for now.

uh_no
03-22-2014, 12:39 AM
Will he stay or will he go? I know it's early and I would have preferred to wait till after the tournament but... Per ESPN breaking news: "Duke F Jabari Parker says after game that his career is incomplete and that loss could affect his decision about whether to return to Duke next season"

It's not much but it is something for now.

by "affect his decision" I think it means he will only feel a slight bit of remorse over unfulfilled team ambitions when he declares....

he seemed pretty torn up, and i can certainly understand that after a loss like that....but i think as he has time to let emotions subside, he'll realize that a single game shouldn't force his hand either way.

eddiehaskell
03-22-2014, 02:42 AM
He just turned 19 last week. I'm not sure we can put much stock in what any very emotional 19 year old says.

Bay Area Duke Fan
03-22-2014, 02:48 AM
Will he stay or will he go? I know it's early and I would have preferred to wait till after the tournament but... Per ESPN breaking news: "Duke F Jabari Parker says after game that his career is incomplete and that loss could affect his decision about whether to return to Duke next season"

It's not much but it is something for now.

I wonder if he'll ask Marcus Smart for advice.

DukeAlumBS
03-22-2014, 04:23 AM
My gut feeling. He needs another year to work on his entire game. Scoring against bigs, his defense, and his shooting as well. This is what I see in his game.

Nice day
Jimmy

porkpa
03-22-2014, 07:06 AM
My heart tells me that I hope he stays. It would probably be to his advantage as a ballplayer to do so. He has great talent. However a year more playing college ball will not only increase the talent quotient but will add a level of maturity that one rarely, if ever finds in a freshman.
But if he asked me what I thought was best for him, my conscience would not allow me to tell him not to go to the NBA. If he goes,its almost certain that he will be one of the top three draft choices, if not the first one. There is too much at risk if he stays. Things can and often do go wrong. There is an upside to his staying another year. There is also a more precipitous downside that could result in the loss of millions upon millions of dollars.
I would love it if both he and Rodney stayed. But if I were the father or trusted advisor to either one I doubt that I would encourage either one to do so.

CajunDevil
03-22-2014, 07:58 AM
Jabari doesn't "need" to work on his game at all to be top 3 pick. Sure, another year would make him a much better player and sure up some deficiencies on D, being more patient on offense, etc. However, the reason I think he will stay is that the biggest hole in Jabari's game is his leadership. He has transcendent talent and has the potential of being that once in generation player but he needs that leadership component. And, there is NO better person in the world to learn leadership from than Coach K. Next year Jabari could lead up - Amile, Sully, Quinn - and also lead down - Okafor, Jones, Justise. It would be an opportunity to grow as a person and a player.

If I were his parents, I'd get a BIG insurance policy and recommend he stay another year.

lotusland
03-22-2014, 08:20 AM
By almost any metric he's ready and he should go. But if, in the end, he just wants another year at Duke under Coach K then it's not a bad choice to stay. But he's a top 3 pick so, from a basketball standpoint, he's going to be given time to mature in the league and there is as much or more chance that his draft status will fall than improve. Anyone would love to be in his position - he's sitting in the catbird seat. Just give him time and wish him well.

dukelifer
03-22-2014, 08:23 AM
Jabari doesn't "need" to work on his game at all to be top 3 pick. Sure, another year would make him a much better player and sure up some deficiencies on D, being more patient on offense, etc. However, the reason I think he will stay is that the biggest hole in Jabari's game is his leadership. He has transcendent talent and has the potential of being that once in generation player but he needs that leadership component. And, there is NO better person in the world to learn leadership from than Coach K. Next year Jabari could lead up - Amile, Sully, Quinn - and also lead down - Okafor, Jones, Justise. It would be an opportunity to grow as a person and a player.

If I were his parents, I'd get a BIG insurance policy and recommend he stay another year.
Jabari had a great year and is very good but he is not a transcendent talent - he has the potential to be an all-star in time. He is not an elite shooter or an explosive driver. He does not make players around him better with his passing and court awareness and his D is shaky at best. He is a solid NBA-caliber player. The NBA is a whole different animal- transcendent is Lebron or even Durant. We are seeing Jabari against college players of which only a very small percentage will make the league. Even measured against former Duke players I am not sure he would lead the pack. He is very good and should have a long NBA career if he puts a ton of time into his game.. That is all we can say right now.

wilko
03-22-2014, 08:28 AM
Some levity is required today...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UZvIZAHjlY

CameronBornAndBred
03-22-2014, 08:47 AM
My gut feeling. He needs another year to work on his entire game. Scoring against bigs, his defense, and his shooting as well. This is what I see in his game.

For me, there is a huge myth surrounding Jabari that he is the best player on our team. I strongly disagree. I would be inclined to give that mantle to Hood. Jabari may be our best scorer, and he is certainly the most talented, but to be the best player requires a more rounded game than Parker currently possesses. His defense is IMO abysmal, but unlike Dawkins and others, he stays on the court because we need his points. He is excellent at creating opportunities for himself, but especially down the stretch failed to capitalize so often. It was as frustrating to me to watch him miss layups and putbacks as it is to watch the women miss the same close shots.
He has lots to learn. There is no doubt in my mind that he will be selected high in the draft if he chooses to go, but unless his game improves immensely over the summer, we won't be seeing stunning stats in his NBA box scores any time soon.
So I do hope he stays. I would love to see him in the tourney next year after another season is under his belt, when he may very well be not only the best player on our team, but the best player in college.

NashvilleDevil
03-22-2014, 08:49 AM
Jabari had a great year and is very good but he is not a transcendent talent - he has the potential to be an all-star in time. He is not an elite shooter or an explosive driver. He does not make players around him better with his passing and court awareness and his D is shaky at best. He is a solid NBA-caliber player. The NBA is a whole different animal- transcendent is Lebron or even Durant. We are seeing Jabari against college players of which only a very small percentage will make the league. Even measured against former Duke players I am not sure he would lead the pack. He is very good and should have a long NBA career if he puts a ton of time into his game.. That is all we can say right now.

I think you're selling Jabari's talent short.

CajunDevil
03-22-2014, 09:01 AM
Jabari had a great year and is very good but he is not a transcendent talent - he has the potential to be an all-star in time. He is not an elite shooter or an explosive driver. He does not make players around him better with his passing and court awareness and his D is shaky at best. He is a solid NBA-caliber player. The NBA is a whole different animal- transcendent is Lebron or even Durant. We are seeing Jabari against college players of which only a very small percentage will make the league. Even measured against former Duke players I am not sure he would lead the pack. He is very good and should have a long NBA career if he puts a ton of time into his game.. That is all we can say right now.

Correction: That is all YOU can say right now. He is the most talented player to ever play at Duke. K didn't get him the ball enough at end of games and Jabari probably didn't demand it enough but don't let a bad last game negatively color Jabari's greatness.

The Gordog
03-22-2014, 09:12 AM
For me, there is a huge myth surrounding Jabari that he is the best player on our team. I strongly disagree. I would be inclined to give that mantle to Hood. Jabari may be our best scorer, and he is certainly the most talented, but to be the best player requires a more rounded game than Parker currently possesses. His defense is IMO abysmal, but unlike Dawkins and others, he stays on the court because we need his points. He is excellent at creating opportunities for himself, but especially down the stretch failed to capitalize so often. It was as frustrating to me to watch him miss layups and putbacks as it is to watch the women miss the same close shots.
He has lots to learn. There is no doubt in my mind that he will be selected high in the draft if he chooses to go, but unless his game improves immensely over the summer, we won't be seeing stunning stats in his NBA box scores any time soon.
So I do hope he stays. I would love to see him in the tourney next year after another season is under his belt, when he may very well be not only the best player on our team, but the best player in college.

Disagree. The biggest hole in Jabari's game is that he plays at the rim, not above.

CameronBornAndBred
03-22-2014, 09:13 AM
Correction: That is all YOU can say right now. He is the most talented player to ever play at Duke. K didn't get him the ball enough at end of games and Jabari probably didn't demand it enough but don't let a bad last game negatively color Jabari's greatness.
Wow...after one season you proclaim him the most talented ever? Kyrie didn't even make it past December and I'd put him above Jabari in talent. After that, my brain is slowly exploding thinking of all the other players who are as equally or more deserving, and most of those graduated after three or four years. Maybe Grant Hill, Jason Williams, Bobby Hurley and few others didn't actually play for us like I thought they did.

dukelifer
03-22-2014, 09:48 AM
Correction: That is all YOU can say right now. He is the most talented player to ever play at Duke. K didn't get him the ball enough at end of games and Jabari probably didn't demand it enough but don't let a bad last game negatively color Jabari's greatness.

I would put Grant above him. Pre-injury Grant was a phenomenal NBA player. Time will tell if Jabari can come close to him. But I am sure we can all name many non-Duke players that were better talents. Jabari is very good but let's not look at the current state of college ball to judge talent- particularly transcendent talent.

Jbsherr DUKE!
03-22-2014, 09:58 AM
I love Parker and all he has done for this years Duke team. He arguably had one the best freshman seasons at Duke or in the entire ACC history. I think he wants to lead and be the one who matches coach K's passion on the floor but remember he was just a freshman it was his first Carolina game, first ACC tournament, first NCAA tournament etc... I certainly feel him coming back playing along side Okafor will put him at his more natural NBA position which would be the 3/4 more likely the 3 more often then the 4. In reality playing along side him would be like playing in the NBA in my opinion because Okafor is headed there after his freshman season more then likely a top 5 pick. He need's to work on his D and his jumpshoot ( don't get me wrong it's not bad but it will be used more in the pros he will driving the lane against men not boys). I don't know where the best place to improve on those, is it at Duke with one of the best coaches in the history of the game or the NBA? I certainly don't blame him if he goes to the NBA I couldn't imagine me giving up millons but I think Parker wants to leave his mark at Duke and that would mean coming back for a shot at a championship. One thing not discussed yet is his fathers health. I beleive Sunny is on dialysis three times a week going pro would mean that Jabari would be all over the map from November till April instead of Durham on a consistent basis where they could visit each other which was very important to Jabari. He considered not going to Duke because of the distance from home. I know it's only one year if he were to stay then he would be traveling in the pros but it's a year and it's important to the Parkers's. I just wish the best for him and his dream's it was great seeing him in Duke Blue this year!!!

CajunDevil
03-22-2014, 09:59 AM
Jabari's skills at this point in his career are far superior to Grant's at same point... Grant never had a consistent jumper - or good form for that matter. Jabari's biggest issue is maturing physically. He will shed his baby fat in the next two years and become more explosive. But fresh grant vs fresh Jabari is no contest

RoyalBlue08
03-22-2014, 10:02 AM
Correction: That is all YOU can say right now. He is the most talented player to ever play at Duke. K didn't get him the ball enough at end of games and Jabari probably didn't demand it enough but don't let a bad last game negatively color Jabari's greatness.

Wow, I know message boards are prone to hyperbole, but this is crazy.

roywhite
03-22-2014, 10:05 AM
It's not easy to compare players of different times, so this may be mostly a matter of opinion, but IMO Jabari is an amazing talent, and perhaps the best ever at Duke. Yes, there have been other great ones, but to see Jabari put up 30 points and 11 rebounds vs UNC --- what Duke freshman ever had a game like that against top competition? (Kyrie vs Michigan State, but none other come to mind). Jabari finished 2nd in the ACC in scoring and 1st in rebounding as a freshman; again, that's exceptional.

A side note here on Rodney Hood as he was mentioned above -- to see him go 2-10 for 6 points yesterday in a game of this importance....truly disappointing.

To Jabari's decision -- he seems to really enjoy being a college student at Duke; I hope that works in favor of his return.

dukelifer
03-22-2014, 10:06 AM
Jabari's skills at this point in his career are far superior to Grant's at same point... Grant never had a consistent jumper - or good form for that matter. Jabari's biggest issue is maturing physically. He will shed his baby fat in the next two years and become more explosive. But fresh grant vs fresh Jabari is no contest

Who would have been a better pro- Freshman Grant or Senior Grant. I claim that if Grant has left after his Freshman year he never would have developed to be the pro he became. That may be wild speculation but I would bet money that Grant would say the same. Senior Grant was better than Freshman Jabari - the kid almost led a team to a NC by himself. Grant was the best player Duke has had. Duke had zero NC before he came to the program.

jv001
03-22-2014, 10:09 AM
Jabari's skills at this point in his career are far superior to Grant's at same point... Grant never had a consistent jumper - or good form for that matter. Jabari's biggest issue is maturing physically. He will shed his baby fat in the next two years and become more explosive. But fresh grant vs fresh Jabari is no contest

You didn't see the same Grant Hill I saw. He was a winner from day one. He played with better players his freshman year than the ones Jabari played with. He deferred to them often. Jabari on the other hand was the primary offensive weapon. And then when you throw in that little thing called defense, it's not even close in my opinion. I do believe another year in school would help JP. He would be able to play a more natural position(SF/PF). He wouldn't be the man in the low post(Okafor). He could actually learn how to play defense and he could get stronger. I'm saying all this with love for this young man. I don't want Jabari to get in over his head like Austin did. GoDuke!

lotusland
03-22-2014, 10:11 AM
For me, there is a huge myth surrounding Jabari that he is the best player on our team. I strongly disagree. I would be inclined to give that mantle to Hood. Jabari may be our best scorer, and he is certainly the most talented, but to be the best player requires a more rounded game than Parker currently possesses. His defense is IMO abysmal, but unlike Dawkins and others, he stays on the court because we need his points. He is excellent at creating opportunities for himself, but especially down the stretch failed to capitalize so often. It was as frustrating to me to watch him miss layups and putbacks as it is to watch the women miss the same close shots.
He has lots to learn. There is no doubt in my mind that he will be selected high in the draft if he chooses to go, but unless his game improves immensely over the summer, we won't be seeing stunning stats in his NBA box scores any time soon.
So I do hope he stays. I would love to see him in the tourney next year after another season is under his belt, when he may very well be not only the best player on our team, but the best player in college.

Parker was our best player imo and it wasn't really close. Mercer's whole game plan was to deny parker the ball, keep duke away from the rim and make us beat them with 3 pointers. Even shooting well it wasn't enough with parker held in check. Hood is only marginally better on defense but parkers rebounding is elite. Without him we have almost zero post presence and poor rebounding. What is special about Parker is his balance for his size. He can make post moves and get shots off in control when it appears he falling down or off balance. It's rare to have his combination of strength, timing and touch. I think his game is tailored for the NBA and he will be a load.

dukelifer
03-22-2014, 10:14 AM
It's not easy to compare players of different times, so this may be mostly a matter of opinion, but IMO Jabari is an amazing talent, and perhaps the best ever at Duke. Yes, there have been other great ones, but to see Jabari put up 30 points and 11 rebounds vs UNC --- what Duke freshman ever had a game like that against top competition? (Kyrie vs Michigan State, but none other come to mind). Jabari finished 2nd in the ACC in scoring and 1st in rebounding as a freshman; again, that's exceptional.

A side note here on Rodney Hood as he was mentioned above -- to see him go 2-10 for 6 points yesterday in a game of this importance....truly disappointing.

To Jabari's decision -- he seems to really enjoy being a college student at Duke; I hope that works in favor of his return.
I will concede that in my memory- Jabari was most productive Duke Freshman- but to define this year's UNC team as top competition and comparable to what other Duke Freshman had to face is a bit of a stretch.

Ultrarunner
03-22-2014, 10:30 AM
Correction: That is all YOU can say right now. He is the most talented player to ever play at Duke. K didn't get him the ball enough at end of games and Jabari probably didn't demand it enough but don't let a bad last game negatively color Jabari's greatness.

Grant Hill would like to dispute that 'most talented' opinion. Jason Williams might, as well.

allenmurray
03-22-2014, 10:57 AM
He (Parker) is the most talented player to ever play at Duke.

Thanks. We all needed a good laugh. There is no denying that Parker is a great talent. But I do wonder if you remember some of Duke"s other greats - there have been quite a few.

oldnavy
03-22-2014, 11:01 AM
Grant Hill would like to dispute that 'most talented' opinion. Jason Williams might, as well.

Christian Laettner was the best college player we have ever had at Duke... and I attribute about 75% of that to his talent and the other 25% to his "bad attitude" towards losing...

jv001
03-22-2014, 11:07 AM
Christian Laettner was the best college player we have ever had at Duke... and I attribute about 75% of that to his talent and the other 25% to his "bad attitude" towards losing...

That's a fact, Jack!

NYBri
03-22-2014, 11:12 AM
Christian Laettner was the best college player we have ever had at Duke... and I attribute about 75% of that to his talent and the other 25% to his "bad attitude" towards losing...

Maybe the best college player ever. There's an argument to made for that.

oldnavy
03-22-2014, 11:14 AM
Maybe the best college player ever. There's an argument to made for that.

He is top 5 for sure.. but I got to see David Thompson play, and well.... he was pretty freakin amazing...

NYBri
03-22-2014, 11:17 AM
If we had gone deep into the NCAAT with JP averaging 20+ pts and 9 boards, I would put the odds at 90%/10% on his leaving. This loss and his totals make my take at almost 50%/50% he stays.

We'll find out soon enough. I'd love to listen in on JP's phone calls with Jalil and Tyus.

NYBri
03-22-2014, 11:19 AM
He is top 5 for sure.. but I got to see David Thompson play, and well.... he was pretty freakin amazing...

So did I and I agree, but no one liked to lose less than CL. That made him great.

allenmurray
03-22-2014, 11:19 AM
He is top 5 for sure.. but I got to see David Thompson play, and well.... he was pretty freakin amazing...

It would be really hard to decide between those two. DT was a physical freak - CL a player who refused to lose.

In pure athleticism you have to give the nod to Thompson, but being in the starting line -up in four final four games and three National Championships had never been done before, has never been done since, and in this ear of one-and-done may never be repeated.

jv001
03-22-2014, 11:23 AM
It would be really hard to decide between those two. DT was a physical freak - CL a player who refused to lose.

In pure athleticism you have to give the nod to Thompson, but being in the starting line -up in four final four games and three National Championships had never been done before, has never been done since, and in this ear of one-and-done may never be repeated.

When I tell people how good DT was and that he was way better college basketball player than Jordan, they don't believe me. That's because they probably didn't see DT play. Well it is the truth. DT was amazing. GoDuke!

arnie
03-22-2014, 11:28 AM
Maybe the best college player ever. There's an argument to made for that.

Lew Alcindor thinks that's funny. Saw he and DT and Christian wasn't at that level.

NashvilleDevil
03-22-2014, 11:37 AM
Christian Laettner was the best college player we have ever had at Duke... and I attribute about 75% of that to his talent and the other 25% to his "bad attitude" towards losing...

This over and over.

CDu
03-22-2014, 11:40 AM
I would put Grant above him. Pre-injury Grant was a phenomenal NBA player. Time will tell if Jabari can come close to him. But I am sure we can all name many non-Duke players that were better talents. Jabari is very good but let's not look at the current state of college ball to judge talent- particularly transcendent talent.

Freshman year Grant Hill was nowhere close to freshman year Jabari Parker. Junior- and senior-year Hill was better, and NBA Hill was better. But no Duke freshman has been as good as Parker was this year. One can only assume that - like Hill did - Parker will keep getting better and better.

I certainly hope that he decides his college career is incomplete and he returns for another year. But I certainly don't expect it, he certainly doesn't need to do it, and I certainly won't begrudge him going.

weezie
03-22-2014, 12:05 PM
Jason Williams might, as well.

My money on JWill. He was finely formed before he got to Duke. What a marvel....and what a personality, mean son of a gun behind those pearly whites.

dukelifer
03-22-2014, 12:09 PM
Freshman year Grant Hill was nowhere close to freshman year Jabari Parker. Junior- and senior-year Hill was better, and NBA Hill was better. But no Duke freshman has been as good as Parker was this year. One can only assume that - like Hill did - Parker will keep getting better and better.

I certainly hope that he decides his college career is incomplete and he returns for another year. But I certainly don't expect it, he certainly doesn't need to do it, and I certainly won't begrudge him going.

Agree - but I did ask and wonder what you think if Grant had left after his Freshman year based on potential- do you think he would have been as good a pro as he turned out to be. Jabari right now may be better than Freshman Grant but not as good as Senior Grant. That would put Parker as a solid NBA player - likely playing on a bad team. What skillset does he bring that will set him apart- court awareness- Defense - shooting- passing ability- rebounding? He did very well in an ACC that does not have many great next level players. I am just not sure how to judge him yet.

jv001
03-22-2014, 12:10 PM
My money on JWill. He was finely formed before he got to Duke. What a marvel....and what a personality, mean son of a gun behind those pearly whites.

And the kid could play some mean "D". Jabari needs work. GoDuke!

_Gary
03-22-2014, 12:10 PM
Freshman year Grant Hill was nowhere close to freshman year Jabari Parker. Junior- and senior-year Hill was better, and NBA Hill was better. But no Duke freshman has been as good as Parker was this year.

If we are taking Kyrie's injury into account I'll agree. But if we are talking just a straight up eyeball "talent" test I'm not sure. Kyrie was incredibly good right out of the gate.

Wander
03-22-2014, 12:13 PM
But no Duke freshman has been as good as Parker was this year.

Well, on offense.

El_Diablo
03-22-2014, 12:14 PM
Well, on offense.

Except Kyrie.

CDu
03-22-2014, 12:48 PM
If we are taking Kyrie's injury into account I'll agree. But if we are talking just a straight up eyeball "talent" test I'm not sure. Kyrie was incredibly good right out of the gate.

Yeah, that's fair. Actually, now that I think about it, I might amend my statement further: Irving, Deng, and Brand were all in the same category as Parker. Deng was perhaps a bit behind the other three. But all four were NBA-ready players from day-1.

FerryFor50
03-22-2014, 01:36 PM
Yeah, that's fair. Actually, now that I think about it, I might amend my statement further: Irving, Deng, and Brand were all in the same category as Parker. Deng was perhaps a bit behind the other three. But all four were NBA-ready players from day-1.

What about Maggette?

CameronBornAndBred
03-22-2014, 02:11 PM
What about Maggette?
Hell, what about Kobe? Because he would've gone to Duke! :rolleyes: (By the way, I agree on CM)

FerryFor50
03-22-2014, 02:11 PM
Hell, what about Kobe? Because he would've gone to Duke! :rolleyes: (By the way, I agree on CM)

While we're at it, LeBron! :D

CDu
03-22-2014, 02:15 PM
What about Maggette?

Too raw. You could see the NBA potential (freak athlete), but not yet the skill. Maggette is probably the perfect example of why returning to school isn't the only path to improve your game.

FerryFor50
03-22-2014, 02:17 PM
Too raw. You could see the NBA potential (freak athlete), but not yet the skill. Maggette is probably the perfect example of why returning to school isn't the only path to improve your game.

I'm wondering if the Myron Piggie stuff was part of the motivation for leaving early...

JNort
03-22-2014, 02:37 PM
Grant Hill would like to dispute that 'most talented' opinion. Jason Williams might, as well.

And I know we didn't see much if him but IMHO Kyrie Irving is easily the greatest freshmen to ever play at Duke. Well seems I posted this before reading the rest of the thread.

Edouble
03-22-2014, 02:43 PM
Jabari's skills at this point in his career are far superior to Grant's at same point... Grant never had a consistent jumper - or good form for that matter. Jabari's biggest issue is maturing physically. He will shed his baby fat in the next two years and become more explosive. But fresh grant vs fresh Jabari is no contest

I cringe every time Jabari shoots a jump shot, particularly the step back where he brings his ankles together. Grant may have deferred more as an underclassman, but at least he didn't have such a poor shot selection at times.

You might argue that freshman Jabari is a better rebounder or something, but to bring the jump shot into it doesn't help your side of the argument, in my opinion.

To play (Blue) Devil's advocate, there's no way Jabari makes the Kansas dunk. Doubtful he makes the 3/4 pass (soph year).

DisplacedBlueDevil
03-22-2014, 02:48 PM
If Jabari left tomorrow, he most certainly would not be REMEMBERED as Duke's greatest player ever. If he returns next season, ups his defense, becomes a leader amongst the freshmen and upperclassmen, gets stronger and more aerobically fit, and, as a result and most importantly, shows the world that he would not accept a legacy which ended in a first round defeat in the NCAA tournament - that he is a basketball winner in every aspect of the word - then he's right up there. If you are going to have a discussion about the greatest ever at Duke, it has to start with the guys on one of the four National Championship teams.

FerryFor50
03-22-2014, 02:50 PM
I cringe every time Jabari shoots a jump shot, particularly the step back where he brings his ankles together. Grant may have deferred more as an underclassman, but at least he didn't have such a poor shot selection at times.

You might argue that freshman Jabari is a better rebounder or something, but to bring the jump shot into it doesn't help your side of the argument, in my opinion.

To play (Blue) Devil's advocate, there's no way Jabari makes the Kansas dunk. Doubtful he makes the 3/4 pass (soph year).

I also felt like Grant's jumper was actually more effective than Jabari's at this stage.

I feel like with Jabari, he was the best blend of *all* facets of offense that we've seen at Duke in a long time (maybe ever), but falls short of best player due to defense. And even falls short on offense, IMO.

Grant Hill averaged 11.2 points as a freshman on 8.6 FGA. That's 1.3 points per FGA.

Jabari Parker averaged 19.1 points per game on 14.3 FGA. That is 1.3 points per FGA.

Jabari got to the line 6 times a game. Grant got there just 3.7 times per game.

I'd imagine that Grant would have averaged many more points as a freshman than Jabari if given the kind of offensive freedom Parker had.

Furniture
03-22-2014, 02:53 PM
Best, second best, third best? What's worth saying is that he is a great player. I hope he makes the correct decision for him. I would be surprised if he says.

Bay Area Duke Fan
03-22-2014, 03:06 PM
"Greatness" of a player in a team sport must take into account how that player helped make his team a winner. Grant Hill, Christian Laettner, Shane Battier .... Those are great Duke players. Jabari's season at Duke doesn't come close to being in that category of greatness.

CameronBornAndBred
03-22-2014, 03:10 PM
"Greatness" of a player in a team sport must take into account how that player helped make his team a winner. Grant Hill, Christian Laettner, Shane Battier .... Those are great Duke players. Jabari's season at Duke doesn't come close to being in that category of greatness.
Totally agree with you...but this debate began from the statement of Jabari having the best "talent" at Duke. There is a difference between the two. (And as I have stated, IMO he claims the top of neither, but he is up there in the talent column.)

OldSchool
03-22-2014, 03:33 PM
So distraught after the Blue Devils’ one-and-done exit from the NCAA tournament, Parker barely could speak....

Speaking barely over a whisper, Parker twice summarized his feelings with this word: “Incompletion.”

“I don’t know what I’m going to do,” he said.

A few feet away, teammate Amile Jefferson called Parker “a great kid, an amazing person. It was an honor to play with him this year. … (Mercer) did a good job of packing it in on him. He didn’t really see any daylight.”

Duke's Parker: 'Don't know what I'm going to do' (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/college/chi-mercer-beats-duke-20140321,0,534683.story)


NBA scouts were taken aback by freshman sensation Jabari Parker’s shaky 28-minute performance when Duke was KO’d in the first round of the NCAA Tournament by Mercer on Friday. “He looked rattled and was definitely pressing,” said one scout, after Parker finished with as many baskets (four) as turnovers. “That can’t help him.” But how much it hurts his draft stock remains to be seen.

NY Daily News (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/lawrence-knicks-coach-doesn-run-phil-triangle-offense-article-1.1730415)

gurufrisbee
03-22-2014, 04:22 PM
I hope Jabari gets lots of advice on what to do from Austin Rivers. While their position on the court is quite different, the similarities between those two feels overwhelming. Both were the leading scorer as freshmen, though neither was really a leader of the team. Both had impressive offensive skills, though neither really worked on offense with their teammates at all. Both of them never played any good defense. Neither of them won a conference title or conference tournament. And both of them went 0-1 in the NCAA tournament where they played like a scared freshman.

And we've seen what a great pro career Rivers was prepared to have.

turnandburn55
03-22-2014, 04:24 PM
I also felt like Grant's jumper was actually more effective than Jabari's at this stage.

I feel like with Jabari, he was the best blend of *all* facets of offense that we've seen at Duke in a long time (maybe ever), but falls short of best player due to defense. And even falls short on offense, IMO.

Grant Hill averaged 11.2 points as a freshman on 8.6 FGA. That's 1.3 points per FGA.

Jabari Parker averaged 19.1 points per game on 14.3 FGA. That is 1.3 points per FGA.

Jabari got to the line 6 times a game. Grant got there just 3.7 times per game.

I'd imagine that Grant would have averaged many more points as a freshman than Jabari if given the kind of offensive freedom Parker had.

I'd say the competition was tougher back then too...

Gthoma2a
03-22-2014, 04:51 PM
I love Jabari, but this decision would be up in the air for me. I know that he will be able to score pretty well at the next level (perhaps not phenomenally at first), but I don't know if I believe that he can defend at that level yet. Melo makes a lot of money like that, but it doesn't mean he is an all-around player (just a player that is great on one end of the court, too good on that end to be taken out for his liabilities on the other end). That is what he needs to be at the next level at this point, because he has had some serious lapses on defense all year. Not just him, either. Our team was rough defensively. Still, he has phenomenal talent and will probably be alright wherever. I just wonder what would get him better.

dukelifer
03-22-2014, 05:28 PM
Too raw. You could see the NBA potential (freak athlete), but not yet the skill. Maggette is probably the perfect example of why returning to school isn't the only path to improve your game.

True if you are an athletic freak.

cspan37421
03-22-2014, 05:49 PM
I hope Jabari gets lots of advice on what to do from Austin Rivers. While their position on the court is quite different, the similarities between those two feels overwhelming. Both were the leading scorer as freshmen, though neither was really a leader of the team. Both had impressive offensive skills, though neither really worked on offense with their teammates at all. Both of them never played any good defense. Neither of them won a conference title or conference tournament. And both of them went 0-1 in the NCAA tournament where they played like a scared freshman.

And we've seen what a great pro career Rivers was prepared to have.

That is harshly worded, and I find it hyperbolic in some ways.

That said, it did cross my mind that the last time we had anything as close to an inefficient defense as this year, we had another freshman superstar who turned pro after one year (and a first-round exit from the NCAAT) and whose early pro accomplishments are disappointing to say the least. Austin may yet develop to be a good pro - heck, Josh McRoberts still plays and might even be a starter (on a bad team that is making a push to reach mediocre). Of course, Josh was two-and-done, not one-and-done.

But we've had one-and-dones who have had success (Maggette, Deng, Irving) and others who have not (Avery, and so far, Rivers). Jabari may well develop into a solid all-around player at the NBA level. But I think he'll be off to a very rough start if his defense resembles what we saw this year. I would love for him to stay and become that better all-around player at Duke, but obviously he needs to do what's best for him and his family. When Brand went pro after 2 years, I recall Coach K saying something like, "there's nothing more I can teach him here." I don't think that's at all the issue for Jabari. And what's more, the performance against Mercer (Hood's too) may prove to have been costly. Another season, marked by more consistent offense, respectable defense, and a better jump shot might put that and his mid-season swoon in the rear view mirror for GMs, and could be very lucrative in the end for him. Of course, there's that injury risk. It's a tough call. Whether he stays or goes, he has some work to do on his game. It's up to him where he wants to do it.

NashvilleDevil
03-22-2014, 06:06 PM
That is harshly worded, and I find it hyperbolic in some ways.

That said, it did cross my mind that the last time we had anything as close to an inefficient defense as this year, we had another freshman superstar who turned pro after one year (and a first-round exit from the NCAAT) and whose early pro accomplishments are disappointing to say the least. Austin may yet develop to be a good pro - heck, Josh McRoberts still plays and might even be a starter (on a bad team that is making a push to reach mediocre). Of course, Josh was two-and-done, not one-and-done.

But we've had one-and-dones who have had success (Maggette, Deng, Irving) and others who have not (Avery, and so far, Rivers). Jabari may well develop into a solid all-around player at the NBA level. But I think he'll be off to a very rough start if his defense resembles what we saw this year. I would love for him to stay and become that better all-around player at Duke, but obviously he needs to do what's best for him and his family. When Brand went pro after 2 years, I recall Coach K saying something like, "there's nothing more I can teach him here." I don't think that's at all the issue for Jabari. And what's more, the performance against Mercer (Hood's too) may prove to have been costly. Another season, marked by more consistent offense, respectable defense, and a better jump shot might put that and his mid-season swoon in the rear view mirror for GMs, and could be very lucrative in the end for him. Of course, there's that injury risk. It's a tough call. Whether he stays or goes, he has some work to do on his game. It's up to him where he wants to do it.

Avery was a sophomore.

sagegrouse
03-22-2014, 06:26 PM
I hope Jabari gets lots of advice on what to do from Austin Rivers. While their position on the court is quite different, the similarities between those two feels overwhelming. Both were the leading scorer as freshmen, though neither was really a leader of the team. Both had impressive offensive skills, though neither really worked on offense with their teammates at all. Both of them never played any good defense. Neither of them won a conference title or conference tournament. And both of them went 0-1 in the NCAA tournament where they played like a scared freshman.

And we've seen what a great pro career Rivers was prepared to have.

What you are supporting through argument is that the team results are quite similar between 2011 and 2014. Otherwise, ... not much similarity that I see.

For example. Jabari, if he goes, will be at the top of the draft. Austin was the #10 pick. As you point out, they play different positions (but still "similarities ... feel[] overwhelming?"). I suspect many analysts would say that Jabari Parker is one of the most skilled freshmen ever. Certainly, Austin was not a first-team All-American like Jabari appears to be.

I am puzzled by your motive in this post.

CajunDevil
03-22-2014, 07:01 PM
Jabari could be top pick in draft and no lower than 3. His situation is totally different than Austin's. Additionally, Jabari's offensive game is much more advanced than Austin's. Other than team results no legit comparison to be made here.

4Gen
03-22-2014, 07:20 PM
I never post re basketball expertise. I know when I'm out of my area of expertise. I do know that I like Jabari, and I wish him the very best.

dcar1985
03-22-2014, 07:39 PM
I'd love for Jabari to return for his sophomore year but I almost want him to leave b/c of the way some of you guys seem to be under appreciating Jabari and the year he had. Whether you "think" he's the greatest freshmen at Duke ever he just completed arguably (not really) the greatest freshmen year ever at Duke. First team AA, First team ACC, ROY, Lead the conference in rebounding, 2nd in points. Sure his defense isn't great at this point but what player doesn't have things to work on in their game.

We saw Jabari go for 30 and 11? against UNC and then people saying Tyler was man of the match for being scrappy out there. Just seemed like Jabari was taken for granted all year by some. The kid played his heart out all year wasn't some superstar prima donna, for all accounts he was a team first guy who just wanted to win. But now that the season has ended prematurely some seem to be throwing him under the bus low key. I don't get it or think its right.

cspan37421
03-22-2014, 07:52 PM
Avery was a sophomore.

Thank you for the correction! Memory is going ... 1999 is getting further in the rear view mirror. As I recall, K endorsed Brand going but did not feel Avery was ready.

wsb3
03-22-2014, 08:45 PM
Thank you for the correction! Memory is going ... 1999 is getting further in the rear view mirror. As I recall, K endorsed Brand going but did not feel Avery was ready.

I think everyone knew Avery was not ready.

sagegrouse
03-22-2014, 08:47 PM
I think everyone knew Avery was not ready.

Except the T-wolves

Spoke
03-22-2014, 09:20 PM
I love Jabari Parker. I think he's a fantastic player, BUT, part of the reason he put up the numbers he did is that he is playing in the one-and-done era. What if Kyrie Irving and Austin Rivers were still on the team (as they would be if not for early exits). Would Jabari still be putting up the same eye-popping numbers? Or would he defer to older players as Grant Hill did?

It would be great to see him in a Duke uniform for one more year, but that would be a tough decision for him to make.

UrinalCake
03-22-2014, 09:32 PM
During the season I heard people saying things like they thought Jabari would average 15 and 7 in the NBA this year, and I just don't see it. I think he's a great college player offensively, enormously talented and has a tremendous feel for the game. But in the NBA he'd be going against either a power forward who is bigger and stronger than him and just as quick, or a small forward who is roughly the same size as him and a whole lot faster and more athletic. Physically I just don't think he's ready. I mean he still appeared to be gassed by the end of the games even late in the season, and these are 40 minute games. Defensively we know he's a liability. So I guess my fear if I were him is that I would leave as a high lottery pick, not be ready to contribute right away, and then be labelled as somewhat of a bust.

Obviously that's the worst case scenario, and it's entirely possible that he'll be successful right off the bat, or that whatever team drafts him is willing to give him a year or two to develop. But it wouldn't be the worst decision either to stay another year and continue to develop, then be more ready when he does leave.

oakvillebluedevil
03-22-2014, 09:43 PM
And we've seen what a great pro career Rivers was prepared to have.

Agreed that Austin didn't get off to a great start, but he's quietly showing an upward trajectory this year.

Pelicans picked up his third year option in October (Effectively the Mendoza line for first round picks), and he's raised his PER from the near-catastrophic 5.9 last year to a more stomachable ~11 this year. Caught a couple of his games, and his ability to get to the basket seems a couple notches stronger than it was at Duke. It really stands out on an NBA court, which is saying something. Obviously has a long way to go before his career can be called a success, but he's showing a bit more potential this year.

Definitely could have benefitted from another year or two of work, particularly on his finishing - still well below average.


Both of them never played any good defense.

I remember watching the 2012 team (my senior year at Duke) and being at least mildly impressed with Austin's defensive ability and effort. Was the top perimeter defender on that team IMHO.

Furniture
03-22-2014, 09:46 PM
I'd love for Jabari to return for his sophomore year but I almost want him to leave b/c of the way some of you guys seem to be under appreciating Jabari and the year he had. Whether you "think" he's the greatest freshmen at Duke ever he just completed arguably (not really) the greatest freshmen year ever at Duke. First team AA, First team ACC, ROY, Lead the conference in rebounding, 2nd in points. Sure his defense isn't great at this point but what player doesn't have things to work on in their game.

We saw Jabari go for 30 and 11? against UNC and then people saying Tyler was man of the match for being scrappy out there. Just seemed like Jabari was taken for granted all year by some. The kid played his heart out all year wasn't some superstar prima donna, for all accounts he was a team first guy who just wanted to win. But now that the season has ended prematurely some seem to be throwing him under the bus low key. I don't get it or think its right.

I completely agree with you. But on the other hand it was easy (in a way) to take him for granted because he did all those incredible things so quietly. But stats cannot be ignored.
I am also flummoxed about the stick he got about his step back jumpers. Yes he did miss a few but in the same games he would score 20 points and x number rebounds. Yet people would complain about his shot selection and not say a word about another player who had not scored that day. Bewildering to me.

oakvillebluedevil
03-22-2014, 09:54 PM
I think he's a great college player offensively, enormously talented and has a tremendous feel for the game. But in the NBA he'd be going against either a power forward who is bigger and stronger than him and just as quick, or a small forward who is roughly the same size as him and a whole lot faster and more athletic.

Agreed with both of those sentences. One thing I notice about him is that in the half court, it seemed like every bucket he scored was tough and contested. It didn't seem like he had a lot of margin for error. He'd force post shots up through heavy traffic and contact, or take contested fadeaways. His shot did not consistently have 3pt range, so it allowed opponents to take a step back and contain the drive. I'm afraid that when people get stronger, longer, and faster, that margin will disappear and he'll be an inefficient player.

I remember watching Kyrie take it to the likes of Kalen Lucas and Jacob Pullen, and it seemed easy for him. That didn't seem to be the case as much w/ Jabari this year.

Edouble
03-22-2014, 10:44 PM
Jabari could be top pick in draft and no lower than 3. His situation is totally different than Austin's. Additionally, Jabari's offensive game is much more advanced than Austin's. Other than team results no legit comparison to be made here.

I believe he could fall out of the top 3. Depending on how the ping pong balls end up, it is not out of the question to see a top 3 of Wiggins, Embiid, and Exum. I also think Randle could push Jabari as low as the 5 spot. Crazier things have happened on draft night.

sagegrouse
03-22-2014, 11:24 PM
During the season I heard people saying things like they thought Jabari would average 15 and 7 in the NBA this year, and I just don't see it. I think he's a great college player offensively, enormously talented and has a tremendous feel for the game. But in the NBA he'd be going against either a power forward who is bigger and stronger than him and just as quick, or a small forward who is roughly the same size as him and a whole lot faster and more athletic. Physically I just don't think he's ready. I mean he still appeared to be gassed by the end of the games even late in the season, and these are 40 minute games. Defensively we know he's a liability. So I guess my fear if I were him is that I would leave as a high lottery pick, not be ready to contribute right away, and then be labelled as somewhat of a bust.

Obviously that's the worst case scenario, and it's entirely possible that he'll be successful right off the bat, or that whatever team drafts him is willing to give him a year or two to develop. But it wouldn't be the worst decision either to stay another year and continue to develop, then be more ready when he does leave.

Jabari would average more than ten points a game on open-court action: he is big, sure-handed, creative -- a real load. That and a few points on regular offense would give him 15. The greater strength of NBA inside players wouldn't come into play in the open court.

Of course, I hope we don't find out any time soon which one of us is right.:rolleyes:

jipops
03-22-2014, 11:39 PM
The kid averaged 19 and 8 as a freshman in a power conference. He's gone. It is more likely that K will employ a zone next season than the probability that Jabari will be back.

I wish him the best. He seems to be a genuinely good kid who wants to keep getting better as a player and as a person. I hope he finds himself in a good situation to grow while playing in the NBA next season.

mo.st.dukie
03-23-2014, 01:16 AM
The kid averaged 19 and 8 as a freshman in a power conference. He's gone. It is more likely that K will employ a zone next season than the probability that Jabari will be back.

I wish him the best. He seems to be a genuinely good kid who wants to keep getting better as a player and as a person. I hope he finds himself in a good situation to grow while playing in the NBA next season.

I know only one choice he has where he is guaranteed to be in a great situation to learn and grow as an athlete and as a person, he just won't be making millions of dollars or any dollars at that.

Sometimes the situations in the NBA aren't as conducive to athletic and personal growth, it just depends on who you end up with, you don't get to choose where you play. That's why sometimes you here that being an undrafted free agent can be better than being a 2nd round pick because you get to choose the organization you play for and the city you want to live in. But of course, that will be the case no matter when he enters the draft, but perhaps it would be helpful and allow him to deal with a tough situation easier if he had another year of maturing and developing in a great situation in college

JPtheGame
03-23-2014, 08:02 AM
The kid averaged 19 and 8 as a freshman in a power conference. He's gone. It is more likely that K will employ a zone next season than the probability that Jabari will be back.

I wish him the best. He seems to be a genuinely good kid who wants to keep getting better as a player and as a person. I hope he finds himself in a good situation to grow while playing in the NBA next season.

Hansbrough 22 and 10
Singler 17/7
Barnes 16/6
N. Smitty 17/5 assists

All big time players in this power conference. All those stats are from the year BEFORE their final year.

4017

kAzE
03-23-2014, 08:37 AM
I'm not sure I see the benefit of comparing Jabari to other Duke freshmen in a "draft vigil" thread, but as far I'm concerned, he had one of the greatest first years of any college basketball player ever, right up there with Kevin Durant and Carmelo Anthony. Whether he stays or not, I fully support what he does, because he's a really great kid, and he deserves to do what's best for him.

That said, there's absolutely no scenario in which we are a worse team if he decides to come back for another year. Should that be his decision, Duke fans will have a lot to be excited for next year.

hillsborodevil
03-23-2014, 08:59 AM
JP is not only a talented young man but also a very grounded individual. He could handle the NBA “lifestyle” way better than Maggette.

If you’re a top 3 pick – Go. Finish your education after your NBA career. Sam Bowie

"Go on take the money and run” Steve Miller Band

Atlanta Duke
03-23-2014, 09:18 AM
Laura Keeley of the N&O states the obvious:

And don’t be fooled by Parker’s comments about his “incomplete” career yesterday – with the next question, he admitted that the emotions of the moment were playing into his response – because the staff has been planning for his departure all along.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/03/22/3724396/no-defense-for-dukes-poor-defense.html#storylink=cpy

Jabari had a great season and his draft stock (worst case scenario top 3) can only go down after this season as potential holes in his game (Keeley notes Jabari was being subbed out for defense Friday) are picked apart. He can work on his game against the best competition in the world while getting paid millions - anyone advising him has to tell him to make the move.

kAzE
03-23-2014, 09:31 AM
I somewhat disagree with the premise that his stock can "only" go down if he stays in school. There's almost no chance it goes much higher, considering how highly he is regarded amongst NBA people, but there's a strong possibility he goes top 3 next year as well, and possibly first overall. He does have significant holes in his game, which have already been discussed ad nauseum, so any GM who is doing their job won't be in the dark about his weaknesses as a player.

However, I've always held the belief that Jabari could lose 15 pounds on a serious conditioning regimen and reinvent himself as a small forward who is quicker, more agile, and an outstanding defensive player. He already has great length and vertical leaping ability. He just needs quicker feet, and I'm guessing shedding a few pounds would really change his game. I really think he could do it. If that happens, his stock stays high and he could head to the NBA hopefully with much more to show for his career in college.

Of course, I don't disagree that he should probably go pro. He's ready for the NBA, and the type of conditioning program and dieting that I mentioned would be much easier to fit into his schedule without having to worry about schoolwork and exams. I wish him the best either way. I just hope if he does go pro, that he lands in a great situation and stays healthy. I'd hate to see him stuck with a hopeless franchise until he becomes a free agent.

jipops
03-23-2014, 09:58 AM
Hansbrough 22 and 10
Singler 17/7
Barnes 16/6
N. Smitty 17/5 assists

All big time players in this power conference. All those stats are from the year BEFORE their final year.

4017

None projected as a top 3 pick nor as a lottery pick after their freshman year.

pfrduke
03-23-2014, 10:01 AM
None projected as a top 3 pick nor as a lottery pick after their freshman year.

Barnes definitely would have been a lottery pick after his freshman year. He's the closest comparison (but still not a perfect comparison, since he was perceived as personally not living up to expectations as a freshman, while Parker did).

Duke95
03-23-2014, 10:02 AM
There is somewhere between 0% and 0.000000001% chance that Parker is coming back.
He can work on his game in the NBA while making millions and work on his education in the summer. Win-win. Why stay and risk injury? Under the current model, it doesn't make much sense.

dukelifer
03-23-2014, 10:08 AM
There is somewhere between 0% and 0.000000001% chance that Parker is coming back.
He can work on his game in the NBA while making millions and work on his education in the summer. Win-win. Why stay and risk injury? Under the current model, it doesn't make much sense.

So there is a chance

gurufrisbee
03-23-2014, 10:16 AM
Maybe I'm way off base, but in my head things that would still be important to me facing the same decision:

* Learning more from the best basketball coach on the planet
* Actually winning something (conference title, conference tournament, national title, etc)
* Not leaving a program having accomplished so little as a team (considering that team success is supposed to be bigger than individual success)

I get the money and the injury risk factors, but college is such a brief window and there is so much potential for next year if Jabari (or even Rodney or even both) came back - both in terms of individual improvement (defense) and accomplishment (POY) and in terms of team accomplishments.

It's funny how much people talk about player's legacy in the NBA when they never win a tltle (Barkley, KMalone, Carmelo, etc.) and how much the talk changes once they do (Lebron, Dirk, etc.). I wish the same thing would happen more in college - simply because I wish more kids would stay and get their education and enjoy and maximize the college opportunities and experiences more. I'm sure I'm in the minority about this, but I don't see Rivers or Deng or Kyrie as great Duke players at all. They just feel like they came and used Duke for a year more than anything else.

mkirsh
03-23-2014, 10:21 AM
My 2 cents for what it's worth (likely less than 2 cents):

I think the "he could use one more year to get better" argument is flawed. Players do get a lot better in the NBA, where they are practicing against pros every day instead of college kids for a max of 20 hours per week. Look at all the Duke examples - both Plumlees, McRoberts, Redick, Maggette just to name a few. Heck, even look at Ryan Kelly this year and tell me how much better we would have been with 2014 NBA Ryan Kelly on last year's team. Imagine if 2014 JJ Redick had one more year of eligibility, what do you think he would average, something like 45 per game? I think Jabari's best Duke comp is Loul Deng, who was NBA ready after one year. Jabari is equally if not more NBA ready and will do very well at the next level. In my opinion the best reasons for him to come back (outside preferring the college experience to NBA lifestyle which I imagine would be hard on a 19 year old Mormon) would be if he wanted the experience of leading a team. Think maybe 1% chance that he comes back but won't be to develop his skill set.

Second point - On the Kyrie Irving comparisons, I'm as big a fan as Kyrie as anyone, but I don't think it's fair to extrapolate his first 8 games to an entire season. We never go to see how Kyrie would respond to opposing defenses game-planning for him, if he would have hit a freshman wall, if he had to endure a shooting slump, etc. By comparison, Jabari's first 8 games were off the charts too. Here's how they stack up:

Kyrie first 8 games (Princeton, Miami (OH), Colgate, Columbia, Marquette, K-State, Oregon, MSU, Butler)
Min 28.9
Points 17.4
FG% 53%
3p% 45%
FT% 90%
Rebs 3.8
Assits 5.1
TOs 2.8
Steals 1.5
Blocks 0.6


Jabari's first 8 games (Davidson, Kansas, FL Atlantic, UNCA, ECU, Vermont, Alabama, UCLA)
Min 31.0
Points 23.0
FG% 55%
3p% 50%
FT% 73%
Rebs 8.0
Assits 2.0
TOs 3.1
Steals 1.3
Blocks 1.8

I think we all forget how hot Jabari started the year. Pretty astounding first 8 games for both. Jabari's stats are better, but Kyrie had other strong players on the team to share the load with and played slightly tougher schedule.

Not going to weigh in on the "is Jabari the best player ever at Duke", but the fact that there is even a debate means he among the elite of the elite here.

CajunDevil
03-23-2014, 10:52 AM
As others have stated, Jabari's game is nba-ready. The only reason for Jabari to come back - what his game is lacking and what he can't get from a struggling Nba team - is how to be a leader from the greatest "professor" of leadership there is - Coach K.

moonpie23
03-23-2014, 11:15 AM
unfortunately, leaving millions on the table, while exposing yourself to possible injury, just doesn't make sense... :(

Gthoma2a
03-23-2014, 11:18 AM
My 2 cents for what it's worth (likely less than 2 cents):

I think the "he could use one more year to get better" argument is flawed. Players do get a lot better in the NBA, where they are practicing against pros every day instead of college kids for a max of 20 hours per week. Look at all the Duke examples - both Plumlees, McRoberts, Redick, Maggette just to name a few. Heck, even look at Ryan Kelly this year and tell me how much better we would have been with 2014 NBA Ryan Kelly on last year's team. Imagine if 2014 JJ Redick had one more year of eligibility, what do you think he would average, something like 45 per game? I think Jabari's best Duke comp is Loul Deng, who was NBA ready after one year. Jabari is equally if not more NBA ready and will do very well at the next level. In my opinion the best reasons for him to come back (outside preferring the college experience to NBA lifestyle which I imagine would be hard on a 19 year old Mormon) would be if he wanted the experience of leading a team. Think maybe 1% chance that he comes back but won't be to develop his skill set.

Second point - On the Kyrie Irving comparisons, I'm as big a fan as Kyrie as anyone, but I don't think it's fair to extrapolate his first 8 games to an entire season. We never go to see how Kyrie would respond to opposing defenses game-planning for him, if he would have hit a freshman wall, if he had to endure a shooting slump, etc. By comparison, Jabari's first 8 games were off the charts too. Here's how they stack up:

Kyrie first 8 games (Princeton, Miami (OH), Colgate, Columbia, Marquette, K-State, Oregon, MSU, Butler)
Min 28.9
Points 17.4
FG% 53%
3p% 45%
FT% 90%
Rebs 3.8
Assits 5.1
TOs 2.8
Steals 1.5
Blocks 0.6


Jabari's first 8 games (Davidson, Kansas, FL Atlantic, UNCA, ECU, Vermont, Alabama, UCLA)
Min 31.0
Points 23.0
FG% 55%
3p% 50%
FT% 73%
Rebs 8.0
Assits 2.0
TOs 3.1
Steals 1.3
Blocks 1.8

I think we all forget how hot Jabari started the year. Pretty astounding first 8 games for both. Jabari's stats are better, but Kyrie had other strong players on the team to share the load with and played slightly tougher schedule.

Not going to weigh in on the "is Jabari the best player ever at Duke", but the fact that there is even a debate means he among the elite of the elite here.

Look at the teams on that list and you see a world of difference (these were all pretty good teams Marquette, K-State, Oregon, MSU, Butler). That, and look at the defense played by the two players on those games. Remember the KSU game, when Jacob Pullen was the senior that they thought was going to exploit Kyrie's youth, so the media all thought that Nolan would have to cover him? You remember that Kyrie came out, played amazing offense and shut Pullen down on D? That is a big thing, to me. Kyrie was a very good college defender when he was healthy.

I think the difference is that, while Jabari is a great college basketball player, I wonder if it translates to a STAR in the NBA with what he knows now. Kyrie had enough D to perform and he was the guy who was able to take over the ends of games (the one he lost was over just after half-time, but in games that were still open). The moves he made were so crisp and special that there was no doubt that he was going to be able to wow crowds at the next level. Jabari plays a different position and in a different way. He will have to muscle NBA players and he will have to shoot over them when he can't. He will also have to have a sustained effort for the entire game. That includes defensively.

I think the difference, when looking at them as next level, is that one was a sure fire star, if healthy, and the other is guaranteed to play in the NBA, not STAR. Kyrie just WAS a scoring point guard with a handle that made him the most mobile guy on the court. Jabari will have to rely on moves, conditioning and strength to carry him through his career. And he's got to learn defense. I think it will help him, defensively, to have a big back line behind him, though. No matter what, all parties will be okay. If he works hard enough at the right things, he will succeed. That is no matter what he chooses.

DukeGrad
03-23-2014, 11:44 AM
Is there a possibility that the money incentive may not be as great for Parker? With an ex-NBA player for a father, his situation my be similar to Hansbrough's where money wasn't necessarily the overwhelming factor in his decision.

I also wonder what part Parker's faith will play in his decision.

I have no doubt Parker will make the best decision, and sadly (for us) I think he's headed to the NBA.

grossbus
03-23-2014, 11:54 AM
""Go on take the money and run” Steve Miller Band"

"Stay" Maurice Williams and the Zodiacs

roywhite
03-23-2014, 12:13 PM
""Go on take the money and run” Steve Miller Band"

"Stay" Maurice Williams and the Zodiacs

Easy choice (for me).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1Z_hskvz1M

gurufrisbee
03-23-2014, 12:15 PM
It's important to remember there are different levels of NBA ready. You can be ready to come in and sit at the end of the bench, ready to come in and compete for a starting spot, ready to come in and be an all star out of the gate. Jabari was NBA ready at the lowest level before he finished high school. IMHO, he's a long way from being ready at the highest level. I'm not sure his defense is good enough to be an NBA starter yet. And while he was good most of the season, I'd still be a little hesitant from the Notre Dame/Syracuse/Virginia/Mercer games that he's matured enough to be a leader and the big time performer you want in the tough games. All these things will likely improve the next couple years no matter where he is playing - but if he wants to be more NBA ready before he is in the NBA, he does have that option.

MCFinARL
03-23-2014, 12:35 PM
Is there a possibility that the money incentive may not be as great for Parker? With an ex-NBA player for a father, his situation my be similar to Hansbrough's where money wasn't necessarily the overwhelming factor in his decision.

I also wonder what part Parker's faith will play in his decision.

I have no doubt Parker will make the best decision, and sadly (for us) I think he's headed to the NBA.

I think it's a very good bet Parker's faith will play a big role in his decision, since it seems to be important to him--although of course there is no telling HOW it might influence his decision.

Someone upthread also mentioned Parker's dad's illness, which might also cut either way--desire to stay on a less rigorous schedule, so he can be more in contact with his family, or desire to start the next stage now, either for potential financial security (while his family may be financially secure, serious illness can deplete resources shockingly quickly) or to ensure maximum availability of his father's counsel and support.

Parker seems to like college a lot, and he obviously feels the sting of unfinished business. On a personal level, as opposed to a basketball level, the grind of NBA rookiehood might not be all that appealing a lifestyle for a level-headed 19-year-old. And he is young enough and talented enough that, barring injury, the extra year isn't likely to worsen his draft status significantly, even if it can't really help it much. If he can properly insure himself, he may well surprise us and decide to stay another year.

But I doubt it. Once the shock and pain of the abrupt tournament departure wear off, I'm guessing he will conclude that, on balance, leaving school makes the most sense. Can't fault him for that--he could learn things from staying, but probably nothing he can't learn by going, in a different way.

MCFinARL
03-23-2014, 12:38 PM
..just a little bit longer. Please, please, please, please, please.....

SoCalDukeFan
03-23-2014, 12:42 PM
I think it's a very good bet Parker's faith will play a big role in his decision, since it seems to be important to him--although of course there is no telling HOW it might influence his decision.

Someone upthread also mentioned Parker's dad's illness, which might also cut either way--desire to stay on a less rigorous schedule, so he can be more in contact with his family, or desire to start the next stage now, either for potential financial security (while his family may be financially secure, serious illness can deplete resources shockingly quickly) or to ensure maximum availability of his father's counsel and support.

Parker seems to like college a lot, and he obviously feels the sting of unfinished business. On a personal level, as opposed to a basketball level, the grind of NBA rookiehood might not be all that appealing a lifestyle for a level-headed 19-year-old. And he is young enough and talented enough that, barring injury, the extra year isn't likely to worsen his draft status significantly, even if it can't really help it much. If he can properly insure himself, he may well surprise us and decide to stay another year.

But I doubt it. Once the shock and pain of the abrupt tournament departure wear off, I'm guessing he will conclude that, on balance, leaving school makes the most sense. Can't fault him for that--he could learn things from staying, but probably nothing he can't learn by going, in a different way.

I agree with your last paragraph. And it is sad.

I rewatched something about the 91/92 back to back championship. My guess is that Laettner and Hill treasure their years at Duke far more than any in the NBA. If Jabari turns out to be a NBA superstar, he will make money than he can intelligently spend in the NBA no matter how many years he stays at Duke. But it probably makes sense for Parker to leave.

SoCal

DBFAN
03-23-2014, 01:00 PM
The one thing I do believe we are missing in the defense argument, is the position he plays. While Kyrie isn't a phenomenal defender, he is also a PG, and let's be honest here, nobody talks about PG's and their defensive capabilities in the NBA. BUT name one great wing player, who does not handle business in the defensive side. I guess we could say Anthony, but his NBA career has been filled with lots of points an no titles. Kobe, LeBron, Jordan..etc all amazing, and all of them terrific on D. Wing players need to be able to defend.

johnb
03-23-2014, 01:14 PM
Vigil sounds like some has died. No one has died, not even if our two guys go pro.

It's a little like assessing the "legacy" of one year players like Jabari and Epdney. Both are terrific players and seem like terrific guys. They'll both make great pros and become rich. If they leave after this season, they don't really get a Duke legacy beyond one being a captain and the other racking up some individual awards. I'd leave the word "legacy" to players and coaches who contribute to a banner. Of course, if Jabari and /or Rodney become LeBron, the recruiting ripples can extend for decades.

Btw, I'd like to think Jabari will make his decision based on something besides money. "unfinished business" is a weak reason, since there's no guarantee that next year would be more successful (though if one or both stayed, it'd be mind blowing if we we lost more than a few games all year). But in addition to money, I'd like to assume he is considering happiness, fulfillment, that sort of thing. As is obvious, Rodney is in a very different situation, since he's probably only a couple of summers from graduation. if Jabari leaves now, he won't finish college (has any one-year player eve graduated from anywhere?), but more importantly, he won't have the adolescent extension experice that should/might better prepare him for an adulthood as an NBA star and then a rich NBA retiree.

Otoh, he chose Duke as a self describd business decision, going against his gut feeling from his visit weekend, so I'll assume he'll use those same criteria about the NBA. And from a business perspective, he's the sort of level headed guy who can do fine right away in the NBA (ie, he won't be out carousing and self destructing)...And since the coaching staff has prepared for his going all along, and he hasn't really ever refuted that expectation, I assume he's just being tactful in preparation for moving into the big leagues.

OldSchool
03-23-2014, 01:32 PM
has any one-year player ever graduated from anywhere?

I've been wondering if this is really feasible. Kyrie is trying to get it done through summer school sessions. But how does that work when you have USA Basketball and the Olympics in the summer? How many summers are required? How long before an older, richer player decides he would rather do other things than sitting in Perkins with a pile of books on a beautiful, sunny day?

Perhaps this is realistic for a two-year player, but even so a stretch. If Kyrie gets this done, add this as one of the biggest of his impressive accomplishments.

weezie
03-23-2014, 01:38 PM
How long before an older, richer player decides he would rather do other things than sitting in Perkins with a pile of books


I'm guessing that some guys will indeed sit there until their parents see that diploma, regardless of the money the player is making.

kAzE
03-23-2014, 02:56 PM
The one thing I do believe we are missing in the defense argument, is the position he plays. While Kyrie isn't a phenomenal defender, he is also a PG, and let's be honest here, nobody talks about PG's and their defensive capabilities in the NBA. BUT name one great wing player, who does not handle business in the defensive side. I guess we could say Anthony, but his NBA career has been filled with lots of points an no titles. Kobe, LeBron, Jordan..etc all amazing, and all of them terrific on D. Wing players need to be able to defend.

Disagree . . . The only reason Kyrie isn't considered in the "best PG" debate is because of his deficiencies defensively. He's among the worst in the league at that position in defensive efficiency. That's why guys like Chris Paul and Russell Westbrook will be ahead of Kyrie until he improves on that end of the floor.

People love the offensive fireworks from guys like Kyrie, Steph Curry, and Damian Lillard, but those teams aren't true contenders in the NBA.

The NBA is a pick and roll league, so your most important players defensively are the guy guarding the ball handler and your big man guarding the screener. 50% of the time, the opposing ball handler is going to be a point guard in that situation, so your point guard better be good defensively if you want to win. That matters.

NYBri
03-23-2014, 03:13 PM
I want him to stay not so much to make the team that much stronger. It's more basic: I just love to watch him play.

I'll tell him as much when he calls me for my advice.

OldSchool
03-23-2014, 03:15 PM
An uncharitable take on Jabari's performance in the Mercer game:

How Mercer's upset could affect Duke prospects Parker and Hood (http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24496712/how-mercers-upset-could-affect-duke-prospects-jabari-parker-and-hood)

CameronBornAndBred
03-23-2014, 03:30 PM
An uncharitable take on Jabari's performance in the Mercer game:

How Mercer's upset could affect Duke prospects Parker and Hood (http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24496712/how-mercers-upset-could-affect-duke-prospects-jabari-parker-and-hood)
"In the epic history of bad final impressions, it's pretty much this one, Richard Nixon, and Lindsey Lohan. It was not a good day for Parker, who spent much of the year battling for the No.1 spot. But it's going to take an otherworldly performance in workouts for him to overcome what happened Friday."
Any "article" that starts with such gross overstatements instantly discounts anything written afterwards, which is too bad since eventually he does make some valid points. However, when written in such a "hater" overtone, I don't care if they are valid or not. I made it about a quarter of the way through before giving up. Oh, and Mr. Moore...it's "Lindsay".

uh_no
03-23-2014, 03:38 PM
An uncharitable take on Jabari's performance in the Mercer game:

How Mercer's upset could affect Duke prospects Parker and Hood (http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24496712/how-mercers-upset-could-affect-duke-prospects-jabari-parker-and-hood)

while there is certainly a fair share of hyperbole in the article, it makes some very fair points, and the gifs demonstrate how lost they could be on defense at times

OldSchool
03-23-2014, 03:39 PM
"In the epic history of bad final impressions, it's pretty much this one, Richard Nixon, and Lindsey Lohan. It was not a good day for Parker, who spent much of the year battling for the No.1 spot. But it's going to take an otherworldly performance in workouts for him to overcome what happened Friday."

Based on this hyperbole, this guy is going to have a tough time coming up with a description of the lowlights of Wiggins' last game!

NashvilleDevil
03-23-2014, 04:59 PM
Based on this hyperbole, this guy is going to have a tough time coming up with a description of the lowlights of Wiggins' last game!

Was thinking the exact same thing while reading his takedown of Jabari.

conmanlhughes
03-23-2014, 05:10 PM
While the main focus is on how jabari will make his decision, i think we should focus more on the factors influencing his decision. Okafor coming next year seems to be a major factor. An old AAU buddy might help influence his decision. Okafor did state in a DBR video he can't wait to play with Jabari next year (however, i am probably believing in those words too much of a high school senior) His dad was an ex NBA player, so money is not a giant concern. Also, he obviously did not like how the season ended (since he is used to winning titles and championships all the time), amd he may feel like he needs that title in college as well. The possibility of injury or drop in draft stock is probably weighing on his mind. He was injured in his senior year in high school, but he did bounce back from that, so that feeling of invincibility is questionable in him. Overall, i say the odds are 75% that he comes back. Too much possibliity for next season for him to turn down, plus next years draft will be weaker. However, Okafor is projected no. 1, and I doubt that jabari will continue his past rate of production with okafor there. It would be interesting to see jabari's numbers from his AAU team to see his production to compare if to Okafor's.

Devilwin
03-23-2014, 05:41 PM
Honestly, I feel there is a 50/50 chance for Parker returning, 60/40 for Hood. If they return, with the four kids we have coming in, plus other returners, we are number one in the land no doubt. If they don't, I feel we are top five, because we will have a big presence in the middle in Okafor, and Justise Winslow is a superb forward, Jones is simply dynamite, and Grayson Allen is a great shooter, and can jump like a kangaroo rat. We'll be fine.

CameronBornAndBred
03-23-2014, 05:47 PM
Honestly, I feel there is a 50/50 chance for Parker returning, 60/40 for Hood. If they return, with the four kids we have coming in, plus other returners, we are number one in the land no doubt. If they don't, I feel we are top five, because we will have a big presence in the middle in Okafor, and Justise Winslow is a superb forward, Jones is simply dynamite, and Grayson Allen is a great shooter, and can jump like a kangaroo rat. We'll be fine.
I wish you were right about Hood...but alas.

After the redshirt sophomore sunk a pair of free throws with 3.8 seconds left to give his team a 63-62 win against Clemson in the ACC tournament quarterfinals, Krzyzewski lauded the Blue Devil captain for his coachability during his postgame press conference. In the process, the Hall of Fame coach acknowledged the fact that this season would be Hood's first and last in a Duke uniform.
"I wish we had him for more than one year, because the growth that he's had in this year is terrific, and it's because he wants to be coached and he takes responsibility," Krzyzewski said. "Anybody's who's willing to take responsibility for his or her actions usually does better, and that's what Rodney does."http://www.dukechronicle.com/blogs/bluezone/posts/2014/03/15/krzyzewski-indicates-hood-nba-bound
That was during the ACC tourney, and maybe something has changed, but I don't think so.

NYBri
03-23-2014, 05:56 PM
Hood is gone and should go. Jabari should stay. My humble .02.

dukelifer
03-23-2014, 05:57 PM
I wish you were right about Hood...but alas.
http://www.dukechronicle.com/blogs/bluezone/posts/2014/03/15/krzyzewski-indicates-hood-nba-bound
That was during the ACC tourney, and maybe something has changed, but I don't think so.

Well the Harrison twins played well today- could move him down if they continue to advance

Kdogg
03-23-2014, 06:07 PM
I've been wondering if this is really feasible. Kyrie is trying to get it done through summer school sessions. But how does that work when you have USA Basketball and the Olympics in the summer? How many summers are required? How long before an older, richer player decides he would rather do other things than sitting in Perkins with a pile of books on a beautiful, sunny day?

Perhaps this is realistic for a two-year player, but even so a stretch. If Kyrie gets this done, add this as one of the biggest of his impressive accomplishments.

These guys start in the summer before the incoming freshman classes. By the end of the year they have completed three semesters. So at minimum he would need at least five full summer terms.

turnandburn55
03-23-2014, 06:09 PM
Well the Harrison twins played well today- could move him down if they continue to advance

Maybe... I think the concern with Hood is that right now the NBA sees his as an athletic freak with a lot of upside... stay in college, they may begin to see less of the upside and more of the limitations. Call in the Kyle Singler problem...

Jabari, on the other hand, is a top-5, at worst, whenever he decides to come out. His decision to stay is largely based on personal reasons / desire to improve his game. Doubtful that his draft stock can fluctuate all that much.

Duke79UNLV77
03-23-2014, 10:05 PM
Maybe... I think the concern with Hood is that right now the NBA sees his as an athletic freak with a lot of upside... stay in college, they may begin to see less of the upside and more of the limitations. Call in the Kyle Singler problem...

Jabari, on the other hand, is a top-5, at worst, whenever he decides to come out. His decision to stay is largely based on personal reasons / desire to improve his game. Doubtful that his draft stock can fluctuate all that much.

I think the NBA sees Hood as a good athlete, but not an athletic freak, who potentially could be a versatile stat-stuffer. He could stay and develop more of a presence as a defensive disrupter, a distributer, and a rebounder. On the other hand, his shooting percentages may not stay so high and he may or may not gain strength easily.

I don't think Singler was a player who wowed the NBA as a potential lottery pick and then was exposed, either. He wasn't fully healthy and didn't shoot as well his senior year, but he was always an average athlete never projected as a star who continued to fill out his game every year. I think his college development put him in the best position to succeed in his current NBA role.

James Michael McAdoo and McRoberts are closer to players who at one time were projected as lottery picks and then had weaknesses exposed. McRoberts draft peak, though, would have come out of high school if he could have gone then. Still, he's found the role he probably was destined for all along.

FerryFor50
03-23-2014, 10:22 PM
Maybe... I think the concern with Hood is that right now the NBA sees his as an athletic freak with a lot of upside... stay in college, they may begin to see less of the upside and more of the limitations. Call in the Kyle Singler problem...

Jabari, on the other hand, is a top-5, at worst, whenever he decides to come out. His decision to stay is largely based on personal reasons / desire to improve his game. Doubtful that his draft stock can fluctuate all that much.

Hood is athletic, but not an athletic freak. Wiggins is an athletic freak.

Hood is a poor man's Rip Hamilton. Maybe Joe Johnson. Not bad, but not an elite prospect. Can he get better? Sure. But he's likely going in the 15-20 range.

WestVirginiaDukie
03-24-2014, 12:02 AM
I totally agree. He is not ready for the NBA, as his performance in the last two games shows. Why in the world would he want to leave early when he could improve so much?


My gut feeling. He needs another year to work on his entire game. Scoring against bigs, his defense, and his shooting as well. This is what I see in his game.

Nice day
Jimmy

WestVirginiaDukie
03-24-2014, 12:18 AM
You only talk about what is best for the player. But last time I checked, basketball is a team sport. He has a four-year scholarship to Duke, and could wind up as the greatest player in the history of college basketball. THAT should be the goal.


My heart tells me that I hope he stays. It would probably be to his advantage as a ballplayer to do so. He has great talent. However a year more playing college ball will not only increase the talent quotient but will add a level of maturity that one rarely, if ever finds in a freshman.
But if he asked me what I thought was best for him, my conscience would not allow me to tell him not to go to the NBA. If he goes,its almost certain that he will be one of the top three draft choices, if not the first one. There is too much at risk if he stays. Things can and often do go wrong. There is an upside to his staying another year. There is also a more precipitous downside that could result in the loss of millions upon millions of dollars.
I would love it if both he and Rodney stayed. But if I were the father or trusted advisor to either one I doubt that I would encourage either one to do so.

eddiehaskell
03-24-2014, 12:33 AM
Honestly, I think Jabari should leave for the guaranteed money.

However, I do think he could stay and still go #1 next year. Next year he would face less attention from defenses - this could mean 20+ppg, a historically dominant 33+ win team (ranked #1 all year), spectacular dunks, a run to the final four and likely championship game, etc. The eyes of basketball fans around the country would be on him more than any other player in college. Heck, the attention could put him up there with Lebron or KD...especially if Duke is crushing everyone. Duke could possibly go down as the best college team in history.

Does Jabari's family have money? What are the possibilities of taking out an insurance policy against injury?

duke4ever19
03-24-2014, 01:13 AM
On one level I understand the pressure to leave for the money. However, I'm reminded of the philosopher, Ludwig Wittgenstein, who's family was one of Europe's wealthiest. If living today, he would be worth many, many times what these NBA players are worth, yet when given his inheritance, Wittgenstein promptly gave it all away to those in need (struggling artists and others in need of financial help). He realized that money hadn't made his family and only seemed to cause problems, so naturally, he got rid of the problem.

Can Jabari leave after one year, play a long career in the NBA, make lots of money and then return to Duke (or perhaps go to school over several summers and gain a degree)? Sure, but he potentially loses the opportunity to work on Jabari, the man, instead of Jabari, the guy who is really good at putting a ball into a hoop for great sums of money. At Duke he has the time and the freedom to learn how to become the right kind of young man under the guidance of a once-in-a-lifetime mentor.

Not too long ago, promising ball players played 3-4 years before leaving school, now we think that he "can't afford" to stay at a fine institution like Duke University.

kAzE
03-24-2014, 01:29 AM
I totally agree. He is not ready for the NBA, as his performance in the last two games shows. Why in the world would he want to leave early when he could improve so much?

Which 2 games are you talking about? He was amazing in the ACC championship game. He nearly carried us to a win by himself in the 2nd half.

g-money
03-24-2014, 02:27 AM
Does Jabari's family have money? What are the possibilities of taking out an insurance policy against injury?

I'm not sure of the answer to the former, but the answer to the latter appears to be that yes, it is possible. Andrew Luck (arguably playing a much higher risk sport) decided to come back for his senior year at Stanford and took out NCAA-sanctioned insurance:

Link (http://www.sfgate.com/collegesports/article/Andrew-Luck-getting-insurance-through-NCAA-2458017.php)


Like many other potential high NFL draft picks who decide to stay in school for one more year, Stanford quarterback Andrew Luck is getting an insurance policy in case an injury keeps him from playing pro football.

The policy, purchased through the NCAA's Exceptional Student-Athlete Disability Program, allows players to buy up to $5 million worth of insurance. They are allowed to defer payment of the premiums until they sign their NFL contracts. Athletes in any sport that has a professional league are eligible to take part.

However, while this might alleviate injury concerns, in the case of the NBA there's still the blasted rookie contract structure and the fact that Jabari's draft stock can really only go down from here. I sense that his decision will really come down to the chance to earn megabucks now (something that perhaps was not as much of a concern for Luck given his family's wealth) versus the chance to win with his friends at the college level.

Edit: Let me also add, I was watching Charles Barkley talking about how Parker and Wiggins aren't ready for the NBA on CBS today, and was reminded of how much I despise the one-and-done rule. It's high time for one-and-done to become three-or-none! Unfortunately, I suspect that Coach K will be retired long before this change takes place.

Des Esseintes
03-24-2014, 04:41 AM
On one level I understand the pressure to leave for the money. However, I'm reminded of the philosopher, Ludwig Wittgenstein, who's family was one of Europe's wealthiest. If living today, he would be worth many, many times what these NBA players are worth, yet when given his inheritance, Wittgenstein promptly gave it all away to those in need (struggling artists and others in need of financial help). He realized that money hadn't made his family and only seemed to cause problems, so naturally, he got rid of the problem.

Can Jabari leave after one year, play a long career in the NBA, make lots of money and then return to Duke (or perhaps go to school over several summers and gain a degree)? Sure, but he potentially loses the opportunity to work on Jabari, the man, instead of Jabari, the guy who is really good at putting a ball into a hoop for great sums of money. At Duke he has the time and the freedom to learn how to become the right kind of young man under the guidance of a once-in-a-lifetime mentor.

Not too long ago, promising ball players played 3-4 years before leaving school, now we think that he "can't afford" to stay at a fine institution like Duke University.

I don't know about you, but I didn't cease growing as an individual upon graduation. Why would we assume a man cannot continue to develop as a person in the NBA? Certainly, many people I know grew up A LOT in the first year or two after leaving college. College actually impeded some of their maturation, because it's in many ways a consequence-free environment. (As it should be, really.) If we want to keep the focus narrowly on basketball, look at JJ, who had a brash, some-would-say punkish attitude in college. Today, he is as humble and likeable as any player in the Association. That development occurred as a professional. So let's not pretend Duke is only the place in the world a smart, hard-working person can improve.

bob blue devil
03-24-2014, 05:12 AM
I don't know about you, but I didn't cease growing as an individual upon graduation. Why would we assume a man cannot continue to develop as a person in the NBA? Certainly, many people I know grew up A LOT in the first year or two after leaving college. College actually impeded some of their maturation, because it's in many ways a consequence-free environment. (As it should be, really.) If we want to keep the focus narrowly on basketball, look at JJ, who had a brash, some-would-say punkish attitude in college. Today, he is as humble and likeable as any player in the Association. That development occurred as a professional. So let's not pretend Duke is only the place in the world a smart, hard-working person can improve.

agree 100%. i don't understand why people continue to take as a matter of faith that personal and professional development for a basketball player is best handled at a university. sure, being at duke has a lot of advantages, but so does being in a professional environment. i certainly would have benefited from more professional exposure (at the cost of academic exposure) when i was jabari's age, and my profession certainly requires a more solid academic footing than does basketball. while i'm sure instruction from coach k is great, there are plenty of great nba coaches with deep staffs who aren't restricted by ncaa rules and who are preparing kids to play in the nba rather than to play college basketball (i.e. the games aren't exactly the same). also, while the level of competition in practice and games is great at duke, it cannot compare to what he'll get in the nba. beyond that, jabari is by all accounts quite mature - he doesn't need to be supervised like a child like some of his peers. add onto that the money math, and i would never ever second guess someone leaving early. for someone like jabari, financially there is no obvious upside to staying (you are simply putting off paychecks), while there is plenty of risk of not improving as much as projected and sliding (ala James Michael Mcadoo) or, worse, getting injured.

i won't second jabari either way, but if he stays i'd suspect his emotions got the best of him.

dukelifer
03-24-2014, 05:44 AM
I don't know about you, but I didn't cease growing as an individual upon graduation. Why would we assume a man cannot continue to develop as a person in the NBA? Certainly, many people I know grew up A LOT in the first year or two after leaving college. College actually impeded some of their maturation, because it's in many ways a consequence-free environment. (As it should be, really.) If we want to keep the focus narrowly on basketball, look at JJ, who had a brash, some-would-say punkish attitude in college. Today, he is as humble and likeable as any player in the Association. That development occurred as a professional. So let's not pretend Duke is only the place in the world a smart, hard-working person can improve.

Of course you can develop- but you have to be in a good environment to do so. Some NBA teams are toxic- look at Deng's recent comments about joining Cleveland. Some coaches are there for a year and will be canned. Some players are not supportive of a new kid looking to take their job. If Jabari went to San Antonio- he would be in a great place. If he joined Cleveland ( a real chance) - not so much. Duke is stable. The bad part of joining the NBA is that you don't pick your team- you are stuck there for years. Bad teams are bad for a reason. You can develop with the right coach and team but you can also get get swallowed up by a bad situation.

jv001
03-24-2014, 09:46 AM
Of course you can develop- but you have to be in a good environment to do so. Some NBA teams are toxic- look at Deng's recent comments about joining Cleveland. Some coaches are there for a year and will be canned. Some players are not supportive of a new kid looking to take their job. If Jabari went to San Antonio- he would be in a great place. If he joined Cleveland ( a real chance) - not so much. Duke is stable. The bad part of joining the NBA is that you don't pick your team- you are stuck there for years. Bad teams are bad for a reason. You can develop with the right coach and team but you can also get get swallowed up by a bad situation.

And there is always the D League. Austin has spent time there. Another year in college would not hurt Jabari's development. GoDuke!

johnb
03-24-2014, 10:09 AM
I don't know Jabari's family's situation, but his dad played in the NBA before contracts went wild. Further, I doubt they have a joint checking account. Our own Mike Dunleavy went pro after a terrific run that propelled him into the lottery. Many of us assumed he would wait a year to enjoy Duke because his father is wealthy, but like Bill Gates, he went for it when the opportunity presented itself.

JP has said he's the kind of guy who goes with what makes most sense more than his gut. If he stayed, he couldn't regain the lost first year (or, more accurately, the lost last year), but I still think he might decide that a year on national tv twice a week, where he would be the frontrunner to be NPOY on a GREAT team could be worth plenty to Nike and Gatorade. And he is unlikely to get those big advertising contracts (outside of Utah) without either another year of Duke or a couple of years of being All NBA (which will be difficult to achieve unless Carmelo and LeBron retire tomorrow). So I assume he should add, say, whatever Battier makes in advertising contracts to the financial aspects of his decision. Toss in the $5 million insurance policy (is that before or after taxes?), and it may become fairly close from a financial perspective. We can toss in our comments on his poor defensive effort for free...

flyingdutchdevil
03-24-2014, 10:12 AM
Do people think that Jabari is coming back because a) they really want him back or b) they think he can develop better in college than the NBA? If it's a), then I completely understand the optimism. If it's b), I don't understand this rationale at all.

Duke basketball and Duke offers the following:
a) Ability to train under a legendary coach for a limited number of hours
b) Max of 20 hours practice a week (in-season) and 8 hours (out-of-season)
c) Really good practice facilities, really good trainers, really good assistant coaches
d) Opportunity to play in front of the wildest fans in college basketball (if not basketball altogether. Have you seen NBA fans?)
e) Great academics, which if taken seriously can be a good 20-30 hours a week
f) Great student environment, great culture, beautiful campus, ideal weather
g) $0 in income

The NBA, as a rookie, offers the following:
a) Ability to train in amazing facilities with the best staff, trainers, and doctors (the Bulls doctors excluded) that basketball has to offer. As much as Duke facilities are amazing, every NBA team has a much larger budget than the best college program
b) Potential to train under a really good coach with great assistant coaches. There are only a few coaches on the level of Coach K in the NBA, and most (if not all) are coaching non-lottery teams, so I don't see Jabari playing for a top-5 coach in the NBA. However, the assistant coaches have a lot more credibility than our assistant coaches. This isn't to diminish the expertise of Scheyer, Capel, Wojo, or James, but a lot of NBA teams that assistant coaches who have been playing/coaching for twice as long, if not longer, than our staff.
c) Unlimited number of hours to work with team trainers, assistant coaches, private trainers, and as many hours as the head coach can offer (which is more than Coach K, again due to NCAA regulations).
d) Lack of any other priority (ie school) that can diminish your ability to grow as a basketball player (and it's not just practicing, but watching film, talking with scouts and trainers, and reading scouting reports are all a big part of the game)
e) Lack of a secure environment. Being an NBA rookie is hard, and if in the wrong locker room (Cavs, Bucks), it can absolutely destroy your motivation.
f) If you are a top 3 pick, your team will undoubtedly invest a ton in you. Jabari will be the face of any franchise that he is drafted on. That is a certainty.
g) $$$, plus an additional $$$ in sponsorships.

If you are a top 3 pick, going to the NBA only makes sense if you want to further your game. I mean, you are a top 3 pick! From getting your body into shape, to being better at offense, to being much better at defense, I see Jabari's basketball decision as only 1 choice: the NBA.

The good news for us Duke fans is that Jabari has expressed interest in other non-basketball fields: academics, religion, friendship, growing as a young adult. If Jabari is putting more value on these values, then he could be coming back to Duke. But if the majority of his choice is basketball, I can't see a reason why he comes back to Duke.

niveklaen
03-24-2014, 10:18 AM
These guys start in the summer before the incoming freshman classes. By the end of the year they have completed three semesters. So at minimum he would need at least five full summer terms.

While I cant speak to Jabari or any other players particular circumstances, many Duke students come in with a semester's worth of AP credits. They dont count toward your GPA but they do count as hours toward graduation. That would cut the minimum to 4 summer terms.

phaedrus
03-24-2014, 10:28 AM
I'm not sure of the answer to the former, but the answer to the latter appears to be that yes, it is possible. Andrew Luck (arguably playing a much higher risk sport) decided to come back for his senior year at Stanford and took out NCAA-sanctioned insurance:

Link (http://www.sfgate.com/collegesports/article/Andrew-Luck-getting-insurance-through-NCAA-2458017.php)



However, while this might alleviate injury concerns, in the case of the NBA there's still the blasted rookie contract structure and the fact that Jabari's draft stock can really only go down from here. I sense that his decision will really come down to the chance to earn megabucks now (something that perhaps was not as much of a concern for Luck given his family's wealth) versus the chance to win with his friends at the college level.

Edit: Let me also add, I was watching Charles Barkley talking about how Parker and Wiggins aren't ready for the NBA on CBS today, and was reminded of how much I despise the one-and-done rule. It's high time for one-and-done to become three-or-none! Unfortunately, I suspect that Coach K will be retired long before this change takes place.

Not to mention that $5 million is a woefully inadequate amount of insurance.

flyingdutchdevil
03-24-2014, 10:31 AM
Not to mention that $5 million is a woefully inadequate amount of insurance.

If you're on track to make $150 million+, sure. But if you have a Duke degree and climb the ranks like most of us, $5 million is amazing starting money.

moonpie23
03-24-2014, 11:05 AM
Do people think that Jabari is coming back because a) they really want him back or b) they think he can develop better in college than the NBA? If it's a), then I completely understand the optimism. If it's b), I don't understand this rationale at all.

Duke basketball and Duke offers the following:
a) Ability to train under a legendary coach for a limited number of hours
b) Max of 20 hours practice a week (in-season) and 8 hours (out-of-season)
c) Really good practice facilities, really good trainers, really good assistant coaches
d) Opportunity to play in front of the wildest fans in college basketball (if not basketball altogether. Have you seen NBA fans?)
e) Great academics, which if taken seriously can be a good 20-30 hours a week
f) Great student environment, great culture, beautiful campus, ideal weather
g) $0 in income

The NBA, as a rookie, offers the following:
a) Ability to train in amazing facilities with the best staff, trainers, and doctors (the Bulls doctors excluded) that basketball has to offer. As much as Duke facilities are amazing, every NBA team has a much larger budget than the best college program
b) Potential to train under a really good coach with great assistant coaches. There are only a few coaches on the level of Coach K in the NBA, and most (if not all) are coaching non-lottery teams, so I don't see Jabari playing for a top-5 coach in the NBA. However, the assistant coaches have a lot more credibility than our assistant coaches. This isn't to diminish the expertise of Scheyer, Capel, Wojo, or James, but a lot of NBA teams that assistant coaches who have been playing/coaching for twice as long, if not longer, than our staff.
c) Unlimited number of hours to work with team trainers, assistant coaches, private trainers, and as many hours as the head coach can offer (which is more than Coach K, again due to NCAA regulations).
d) Lack of any other priority (ie school) that can diminish your ability to grow as a basketball player (and it's not just practicing, but watching film, talking with scouts and trainers, and reading scouting reports are all a big part of the game)
e) Lack of a secure environment. Being an NBA rookie is hard, and if in the wrong locker room (Cavs, Bucks), it can absolutely destroy your motivation.
f) If you are a top 3 pick, your team will undoubtedly invest a ton in you. Jabari will be the face of any franchise that he is drafted on. That is a certainty.
g) $$$, plus an additional $$$ in sponsorships.

If you are a top 3 pick, going to the NBA only makes sense if you want to further your game. I mean, you are a top 3 pick! From getting your body into shape, to being better at offense, to being much better at defense, I see Jabari's basketball decision as only 1 choice: the NBA.

The good news for us Duke fans is that Jabari has expressed interest in other non-basketball fields: academics, religion, friendship, growing as a young adult. If Jabari is putting more value on these values, then he could be coming back to Duke. But if the majority of his choice is basketball, I can't see a reason why he comes back to Duke.

would you please stop with all this "facts" stuff? it's bumming me out…

Huh?
03-24-2014, 11:15 AM
As much as I want Jabari back, I don't think it's going to happen. Jabari's dad requires some serious treatment for a kidney issue and unless something crazy happens, I don't think Jabari turns down the money. I've been trying to convince myself he'll return (championship run, play with Jahlil, cement his legacy, maybe LDS will advise to stay, ha) since I have no idea who will consistently score next year. I think if anyone on here was offered millions to leave school for their dream job there would be no questions, gone.

ncexnyc
03-24-2014, 11:37 AM
I thought G would stick around for his senior season, after the way Nova punked us. We saw how that turned out. The kid certainly didn't need the money nor did the other two players who've laced it up for Duke, who had parents connected to the NBA, but they all left when they had the chance.

It would take a miracle for either Jabari or Rodney to decide to return. I wish them both well with whatever decision they make. It is after all their life.

CDu
03-24-2014, 11:54 AM
Hood is athletic, but not an athletic freak. Wiggins is an athletic freak.

Hood is a poor man's Rip Hamilton. Maybe Joe Johnson. Not bad, but not an elite prospect. Can he get better? Sure. But he's likely going in the 15-20 range.

I think Joe Johnson is about the perfect comp for Hood. And I agree that he's likely to go in the teens.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-24-2014, 12:11 PM
Do people think that Jabari is coming back because a) they really want him back or b) they think he can develop better in college than the NBA? If it's a), then I completely understand the optimism. If it's b), I don't understand this rationale at all.

Duke basketball and Duke offers the following:
a) Ability to train under a legendary coach for a limited number of hours
b) Max of 20 hours practice a week (in-season) and 8 hours (out-of-season)
c) Really good practice facilities, really good trainers, really good assistant coaches
d) Opportunity to play in front of the wildest fans in college basketball (if not basketball altogether. Have you seen NBA fans?)
e) Great academics, which if taken seriously can be a good 20-30 hours a week
f) Great student environment, great culture, beautiful campus, ideal weather
g) $0 in income

The NBA, as a rookie, offers the following:
a) Ability to train in amazing facilities with the best staff, trainers, and doctors (the Bulls doctors excluded) that basketball has to offer. As much as Duke facilities are amazing, every NBA team has a much larger budget than the best college program
b) Potential to train under a really good coach with great assistant coaches. There are only a few coaches on the level of Coach K in the NBA, and most (if not all) are coaching non-lottery teams, so I don't see Jabari playing for a top-5 coach in the NBA. However, the assistant coaches have a lot more credibility than our assistant coaches. This isn't to diminish the expertise of Scheyer, Capel, Wojo, or James, but a lot of NBA teams that assistant coaches who have been playing/coaching for twice as long, if not longer, than our staff.
c) Unlimited number of hours to work with team trainers, assistant coaches, private trainers, and as many hours as the head coach can offer (which is more than Coach K, again due to NCAA regulations).
d) Lack of any other priority (ie school) that can diminish your ability to grow as a basketball player (and it's not just practicing, but watching film, talking with scouts and trainers, and reading scouting reports are all a big part of the game)
e) Lack of a secure environment. Being an NBA rookie is hard, and if in the wrong locker room (Cavs, Bucks), it can absolutely destroy your motivation.
f) If you are a top 3 pick, your team will undoubtedly invest a ton in you. Jabari will be the face of any franchise that he is drafted on. That is a certainty.
g) $$$, plus an additional $$$ in sponsorships.

If you are a top 3 pick, going to the NBA only makes sense if you want to further your game. I mean, you are a top 3 pick! From getting your body into shape, to being better at offense, to being much better at defense, I see Jabari's basketball decision as only 1 choice: the NBA.

The good news for us Duke fans is that Jabari has expressed interest in other non-basketball fields: academics, religion, friendship, growing as a young adult. If Jabari is putting more value on these values, then he could be coming back to Duke. But if the majority of his choice is basketball, I can't see a reason why he comes back to Duke.

I agree with everything you say, but there is one other factor that could potentially make a difference...

Young kids these days (Harrison Barnes jokes notwithstanding) understand that they are building a brand. If Jabari can increase national recognition with another year at Duke where he dominates the competition and leads us to the promised land, that might tilt the scales financially towards the return making sense. Given that with the rookie pay scale he won't make more money year one from the NBA next year as opposed to this year, if he can make a huge splash and become a household name, he might make up that missed year of NBA pay from Nike, Cocacola, or other endorsements.

Or, he might not. But, it could be a factor in his decision if it's a strict financial one.

Trinity09
03-24-2014, 12:11 PM
You only talk about what is best for the player. But last time I checked, basketball is a team sport. He has a four-year scholarship to Duke, and could wind up as the greatest player in the history of college basketball. THAT should be the goal.

I'd be ECSTATIC if wants to come back to Duke because of "unfinished business" or because he wants to leave a lasting mark on the game, but I don't think it's our right to expect him to do so. People are talking about what's best for the player because that's the only relevant factor here. Jabari does not owe the rest of the team or us fans one more drop of sweat. These notions of duty to the team, the prestige of a Duke scholarship, the change to go down as an all-time great, etc. are nice in concept, but, rationally speaking, anyway, they shouldn't be what shapes the decisions of guys in Jabari's shoes. So, so much can happen in a year of basketball that could jeopardize future earnings. If Jabari wants to take that gamble, either due to any of the reasons you listed or because he thinks another year with K will yield more $ long-term, I'd welcome him back with open arms.

flyingdutchdevil
03-24-2014, 12:16 PM
I agree with everything you say, but there is one other factor that could potentially make a difference...

Young kids these days (Harrison Barnes jokes notwithstanding) understand that they are building a brand. If Jabari can increase national recognition with another year at Duke where he dominates the competition and leads us to the promised land, that might tilt the scales financially towards the return making sense. Given that with the rookie pay scale he won't make more money year one from the NBA next year as opposed to this year, if he can make a huge splash and become a household name, he might make up that missed year of NBA pay from Nike, Cocacola, or other endorsements.

Or, he might not. But, it could be a factor in his decision if it's a strict financial one.

I absolutely, 100% agree on the branding aspect. I don't agree that Jabari can increase his brand more with 1 year of college. Jabari was 1st Team All-American and the highlight of ESPN's "Freshman Focus". With another year of branding, I'm sure he would increase it, but he wouldn't go from a 6 to a 10. He'd go from a 9.5 to a 10. IMO, Jabari's brand is already fairly established. I'm sure it's part of the reason why superstars want to play at Duke: building a brand is so much easier when you have constant exposure and a coach who cares about your image (take that UNC and Kentucky!).

I think the branding variable works more in favor of the NBA than college, as the NBA has a larger fan base, has an international fan base (which is very important to the Mormon mission), and receives more exposure on sports publications and networks than college ball (plus the NBA owns two months of the year while college ball only owns one month).

Des Esseintes
03-24-2014, 12:22 PM
Do people think that Jabari is coming back because a) they really want him back or b) they think he can develop better in college than the NBA? If it's a), then I completely understand the optimism. If it's b), I don't understand this rationale at all.


Human nature is to start with your conclusion and work backward to the reasoning. I suspect most people want Jabari to stay at Duke and make Duke better; ergo, staying at Duke will benefit Jabari most. It's, like, a total coincidence that the thing they want for themselves just so happens to be the best thing for him. As for me, I think it's against his best interest to stay, but I very much want him to stay.

dukepsy1963
03-24-2014, 12:59 PM
Let's get it over with, Jabari. I mean, you are one of the best I have ever seen/maybe will see (I am 73), but this one-and-done business is hurting basketball.
I would love it, of course, if you made a decision to stay for four.....you are smart, good student, etc. Think what a role model you might be for other talented youngsters!

Don't get me wrong, when I was a freshman I would have taken the money and left too. So, go ahead....take it and run. I will enjoy watching you in the pros.

But I truly hate this one-and-done business.

Come on, Duke... let's figure out something. Focus on academics again.....and athletes who are strong in not only basketball, but academics too. It's time to do something different.

But this Jabari business? Go ahead and leave....let's get this over with..... But let's try to figure out a new strategy at Duke so that it happens less frequently. We can still have great teams and players.


Trinity, '63

Matches
03-24-2014, 12:59 PM
Pretty sure we could just do a CTRL-F on the Kyrie thread, the Rivers thread, next year's Okafor thread et al, and sub in "Parker" or "Hood".

Folks, they're both leaving. That's been the plan since before the season started, and nothing that has happened will change it. The notion that one or both of them will return because the season was a disappointment is FanThink - not surprising since we are, in fact, fans - but projecting that onto these kids is a mistake.

Both these guys have been excellent representatives of Duke University while they've been here - let's thank them for their efforts and wish them well. And please, let's not implicitly or explicitly treat them like heartless mercenaries because they are making no-brainer smart financial decisions.

CDu
03-24-2014, 01:09 PM
Pretty sure we could just do a CTRL-F on the Kyrie thread, the Rivers thread, next year's Okafor thread et al, and sub in "Parker" or "Hood".

Folks, they're both leaving. That's been the plan since before the season started, and nothing that has happened will change it. The notion that one or both of them will return because the season was a disappointment is FanThink - not surprising since we are, in fact, fans - but projecting that onto these kids is a mistake.

Both these guys have been excellent representatives of Duke University while they've been here - let's thank them for their efforts and wish them well. And please, let's not implicitly or explicitly treat them like heartless mercenaries because they are making no-brainer smart financial decisions.

I tend to agree that both are almost certainly going to go pro this year. However, I think what folks are clinging to is the same "unfinished business" scenario that caused guys like Sullinger and Barnes and Smart to return when they would have top-5 picks. So while it is not at all likely that either returns, it also isn't unheard of for a high lottery pick to decide to come back.

Matches
03-24-2014, 01:10 PM
I tend to agree that both are almost certainly going to go pro this year. However, I think what folks are clinging to is the same "unfinished business" scenario that caused guys like Sullinger and Barnes and Smart to return when they would have top-5 picks. So while it is not at all likely that either returns, it also isn't unheard of for a high lottery pick to decide to come back.

No, you're right (although Barnes was perhaps influenced by having a coach who seems to give underclassmen consistently terrible advice about their draft prospects) - and perhaps one of these days, one of these sure-fire lottery picks will say "You know what? The heck with it - I want to be in school another year." I just wish people wouldn't get their hopes up in individual cases or, if they DO get their hopes up, turn on the kid when he declares.

flyingdutchdevil
03-24-2014, 01:13 PM
No, you're right (although Barnes was perhaps influenced by having a coach who seems to give underclassmen consistently terrible advice about their draft prospects) - and perhaps one of these days, one of these sure-fire lottery picks will say "You know what? The heck with it - I want to be in school another year." I just wish people wouldn't get their hopes up in individual cases or, if they DO get their hopes up, turn on the kid when he declares.

What do you mean by that? I actually think that RoyWill gave great advice about where a player would be drafted. He got a ton of players drafted in the first round. Succeeding in the NBA? That's a completely different story. Although I'm not too sure how much of that can be placed on RoyWill...

FerryFor50
03-24-2014, 01:17 PM
Barnes cost himself a year's earnings, and IIRC was told by Roy he'd be taken 10-15 after his 1st year (almost certainly too low).

MacAdoo - heh. Needs little explanation.

He advised Bullock to stay and told him he wouldn't go 1st round (which he did).

Roy is an excellent coach who does, as you say, consistently produce NBA players. He seems to me to have a habit of undervaluing their draft stock though.

Couldn't possibly have ulterior motives, could he?

Matches
03-24-2014, 01:17 PM
What do you mean by that? I actually think that RoyWill gave great advice about where a player would be drafted. He got a ton of players drafted in the first round. Succeeding in the NBA? That's a completely different story. Although I'm not too sure how much of that can be placed on RoyWill...

Barnes cost himself a year's earnings, and IIRC was told by Roy he'd be taken 10-15 after his 1st year (almost certainly too low).

MacAdoo - heh. Needs little explanation.

He advised Bullock to stay and told him he wouldn't go 1st round (which he did).

Roy is an excellent coach who does, as you say, consistently produce NBA players. He seems to me to have a habit of undervaluing their draft stock though.

Matches
03-24-2014, 01:22 PM
Couldn't possibly have ulterior motives, could he?

You know, as much as the ABCer in me would like to say "yes", I doubt it. I think he's just not particularly in touch with the NBA, and I suspect he's working based on an (IMO) outdated view of when a player is "ready".

And it's starting to bite him in the posterior. Every game MacAdoo suits up for UNC is an advertisement for why guys who think they're OAD shouldn't go to UNC.

flyingdutchdevil
03-24-2014, 01:24 PM
Barnes cost himself a year's earnings, and IIRC was told by Roy he'd be taken 10-15 after his 1st year (almost certainly too low).

MacAdoo - heh. Needs little explanation.

He advised Bullock to stay and told him he wouldn't go 1st round (which he did).

Roy is an excellent coach who does, as you say, consistently produce NBA players. He seems to me to have a habit of undervaluing their draft stock though.

Okay. Gotcha. I was thinking you were referring to the plethora of tweeners that UNC produced that got drafted in the lottery/mid-first round and never really made it: Marvin Williams, Ed Davis, Brandon Wright... and JMM would be part of this list had he declared after his freshman year.

Kedsy
03-24-2014, 02:16 PM
Come on, Duke... let's figure out something. Focus on academics again.....and athletes who are strong in not only basketball, but academics too. It's time to do something different.

Well, Jabari Parker was on the ACC All-Academic team (as was Rodney Hood), so he must have focused at least a little on academics. And he clearly was "strong in not only basketball, but academics too."

You can do things correctly and still be one-and-done.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-24-2014, 02:19 PM
I absolutely, 100% agree on the branding aspect. I don't agree that Jabari can increase his brand more with 1 year of college. Jabari was 1st Team All-American and the highlight of ESPN's "Freshman Focus". With another year of branding, I'm sure he would increase it, but he wouldn't go from a 6 to a 10. He'd go from a 9.5 to a 10. IMO, Jabari's brand is already fairly established. I'm sure it's part of the reason why superstars want to play at Duke: building a brand is so much easier when you have constant exposure and a coach who cares about your image (take that UNC and Kentucky!).

I think the branding variable works more in favor of the NBA than college, as the NBA has a larger fan base, has an international fan base (which is very important to the Mormon mission), and receives more exposure on sports publications and networks than college ball (plus the NBA owns two months of the year while college ball only owns one month).

I think it depends a lot on what market you land in. Do you think a year of exposure leading a high-level Duke team is not as positive as a year in say, Milwaukee? I'm not arguing necessarily for or against, just genuinely curious. I'd wager the average "household name" factor of a Duke star is higher than that of a rookie in Minnesota.

As I say, I would normally agree with the consensus on this board that he'd certainly go pro, but given that he's by all accounts a "good kid" who is clearly a principled and independent thinker, I'd say it's tough to say.

Gthoma2a
03-24-2014, 02:31 PM
I think it depends a lot on what market you land in. Do you think a year of exposure leading a high-level Duke team is not as positive as a year in say, Milwaukee? I'm not arguing necessarily for or against, just genuinely curious. I'd wager the average "household name" factor of a Duke star is higher than that of a rookie in Minnesota.

As I say, I would normally agree with the consensus on this board that he'd certainly go pro, but given that he's by all accounts a "good kid" who is clearly a principled and independent thinker, I'd say it's tough to say.

It would seem that starring 30 televised games for one of the teams to watch would get you more exposure than being in a small market playing 40 games that are televised outside of your area. I remember for the first while, I didn't see much of Kyrie (then again, I, like many, don't watch much regular season NBA unless there is an underlying theme of the match-up). And Kyrie ended his career at Duke with his stock at a ridiculously high level. The team may have lost, but his stat line looked good in the final game (and that was coming off of injury). These are different situations. If he leaves, he doesn't do it with the same push that Kyrie did and it has taken time for Kyrie's brand to take off in the league.

flyingdutchdevil
03-24-2014, 02:35 PM
I think it depends a lot on what market you land in. Do you think a year of exposure leading a high-level Duke team is not as positive as a year in say, Milwaukee? I'm not arguing necessarily for or against, just genuinely curious. I'd wager the average "household name" factor of a Duke star is higher than that of a rookie in Minnesota.

As I say, I would normally agree with the consensus on this board that he'd certainly go pro, but given that he's by all accounts a "good kid" who is clearly a principled and independent thinker, I'd say it's tough to say.

The market matters, but the player matters more. Remember the inept and irrelevant Clippers of the 90s and 00s? Danny Manning and Elton Brand were the only stars, and that franchise suffered for a really long time because of it.

Kevin Garnett (and to a lesser extent Kevin Love) had an amazing basketball brand, and he was in Minnesota. LeBron and his Superfriends went to a Tier 2 market and their brand blew up (not the best example is it's Lebron, but you get my point). Look at KD in OKC, of all places. Phoenix, which is somehow the 6th largest city in the US and having a great year in basketball, hasn't received any limelight because of its shear lack of star power. The Lakers, with little star power sans Kobe (and the corpse previously known as Pau Gasol), aren't getting any branding this year.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-24-2014, 02:38 PM
The market matters, but the player matters more. Remember the inept and irrelevant Clippers of the 90s and 00s? Danny Manning and Elton Brand were the only stars, and that franchise suffered for a really long time because of it.

Kevin Garnett (and to a lesser extent Kevin Love) had an amazing basketball brand, and he was in Minnesota. LeBron and his Superfriends went to a Tier 2 market and their brand blew up (not the best example is it's Lebron, but you get my point). Look at KD in OKC, of all places. Phoenix, which is somehow the 6th largest city in the US and having a great year in basketball, hasn't received any limelight because of its shear lack of star power. The Lakers, with little star power sans Kobe (and the corpse previously known as Pau Gasol), aren't getting any branding this year.

Well, I agree with everything you say, but do any of us really expect Jabari to come into the league at that superstar level? I'd be pleasantly surprised.

My point isn't that a great player can't succeed in one of those markets, but that potentially another year at Duke would do more to build the awareness of the average American. For instance, I can rattle off names like Embiid, Wiggins, Parker, and Marcus Smart as young college kids, but I can't tell you who the most recent draft pick of the Bucks or Wolves is.

I acknowledge that I watch relatively little NBA ball, but I wonder how many other casual sports fans would be able to do the same.

CDu
03-24-2014, 02:40 PM
I think it depends a lot on what market you land in. Do you think a year of exposure leading a high-level Duke team is not as positive as a year in say, Milwaukee? I'm not arguing necessarily for or against, just genuinely curious. I'd wager the average "household name" factor of a Duke star is higher than that of a rookie in Minnesota.

As I say, I would normally agree with the consensus on this board that he'd certainly go pro, but given that he's by all accounts a "good kid" who is clearly a principled and independent thinker, I'd say it's tough to say.

But there is a tradeoff here. That year in, let's say, Milwaukee or Minnesota gets you one step closer to free agency. It also gets you PAID. Conversely, that extra year at Duke doesn't prevent you from STILL having to go through those years in Milwaukee or Minnesota (just a year later).

Let's take a look at Kevin Love as an example. He was a lottery pick as a freshman who ended up in Minnesota. I'd say he is one of the most marketed players outside of guys like James, Wade, Rose, and maybe Anthony. Would another year at UCLA have made him any more marketable than he already is? Would it have kept him from ending up in, say, Milwaukee or Minnesota, just a year later?

Billy Dat
03-24-2014, 02:42 PM
Okay. Gotcha. I was thinking you were referring to the plethora of tweeners that UNC produced that got drafted in the lottery/mid-first round and never really made it: Marvin Williams, Ed Davis, Brandon Wright... and JMM would be part of this list had he declared after his freshman year.

I think it depends on how one defines "making it"?

Marvin Williams - 9 years in the NBA and counting - $55MM earnings in salary alone, making $7.5MM per now
Ed Davis - 4 years and counting - $9MM earnings, making $3MM per right now
Brandon Wright - 5 years and counting - $16MM in earnings, making $5MM per right now

If it's about "maximizing one's potential"...I mean, let's be honest, how many of us really maximize our professional potential? It can't be those of us reading and posting on here all day long.

Please don't take offense, gentle readers, I am sure I am not talking about you.

Go get the $ kid!!!

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-24-2014, 02:45 PM
But there is a tradeoff here. That year in, let's say, Milwaukee or Minnesota gets you one step closer to free agency. It also gets you PAID. Conversely, that extra year at Duke doesn't prevent you from STILL having to go through those years in Milwaukee or Minnesota (just a year later).

Let's take a look at Kevin Love as an example. He was a lottery pick as a freshman who ended up in Minnesota. I'd say he is one of the most marketed players outside of guys like James, Wade, Rose, and maybe Anthony. Would another year at UCLA have made him any more marketable than he already is? Would it have kept him from ending up in, say, Milwaukee or Minnesota, just a year later?

I don't know. Just thought it was an interesting question.

CDu
03-24-2014, 02:50 PM
I don't know. Just thought it was an interesting question.

Oh it is an interesting question. I'm just not sure that there is a sure-fire answer. Even for a player at Duke or UCLA. So much of it depends on the situation, the player, and the opportunities presented to said player once decisions are made.

jamesfrommaiden
03-24-2014, 02:54 PM
I hope Jabari stays. If he goes than I wish him all the best. I just want to know if I am the only one wondering about who else might be leaving.

flyingdutchdevil
03-24-2014, 03:01 PM
I hope Jabari stays. If he goes than I wish him all the best. I just want to know if I am the only one wondering about who else might be leaving.

For the NBA, it's really only Jabari and Hood (and I believe that Hood has one foot out the door already).

Quinn, Rasheed, and Amile can all improve their draft stock. It's in zero percent of their interest to leave early.

Billy Dat
03-24-2014, 03:03 PM
I hope Jabari stays. If he goes than I wish him all the best. I just want to know if I am the only one wondering about who else might be leaving.

You mean aside from the graduates, eligibility-expired, or expected early exits (Parker and Hood)? Plus, we already lost Alex Murphy this year, too. That's 7 players!!!

I don't think Quinn, Rasheed, Amile, Marshall, Matt or Semi are planning to jump ship. Are you worried about one of those guys?

jamesfrommaiden
03-24-2014, 03:04 PM
Let us say everyone comes back.
PG: T.Jones or Cook
SG: Sheed
SF: Hood
PF: Parker
C: Okafor

BE: T.Jones or Cook
M.Jones
Allen
Winslow
Semi
Marshall

and who knows, maybe we will sign Turner as well.

jamesfrommaiden
03-24-2014, 03:05 PM
You mean aside from the graduates, eligibility-expired, or expected early exits (Parker and Hood)? Plus, we already lost Alex Murphy this year, too. That's 7 players!!!

I don't think Quinn, Rasheed, Amile, Marshall, Matt or Semi are planning to jump ship. Are you worried about one of those guys?

Primarily Hood along with Parker and maybe a transfer. I mean you just do not know.

flyingdutchdevil
03-24-2014, 03:08 PM
Primarily Hood along with Parker and maybe a transfer. I mean you just do not know.

Of course you don't know, but we make educated guesses here. It's a fairly educated guess that Hood is gone (he's old for a first round pick, Coach K has hinted that Hood is NBA-ready, etc etc) and Parker as well (top 3 pick, NBA ready offense).

With our other players, I just don't see anyone realistically bailing. It just doesn't make sense from their point of view.

Zeke
03-24-2014, 03:49 PM
I REALLY REALLY hope Hood stays. Parker, at times seemed like a detriment to the team with his forcing shots or drives. Hood was cool and did what was needed when he could. I've come to love him -- Parker not so much

Duvall
03-24-2014, 03:53 PM
I REALLY REALLY hope Hood stays. Parker, at times seemed like a detriment to the team with his forcing shots or drives. Hood was cool and did what was needed when he could. I've come to love him -- Parker not so much

A slow-motion message board trainwreck is still a trainwreck.

Trinity09
03-24-2014, 05:10 PM
Excellent article from Deadspin (http://deadspin.com/marcus-smart-did-the-right-thing-and-look-where-it-go-1546498463)

Here's the money quote, IMO:

The most convincing reasons for returning are offered up by the players themselves. In an interview coming into this season, Smart said he came back to improve his point guard skills, to get a better jump shot, to try and win something, and to remain a kid again for another year. It's that last part that is the most honest, most laudable, and goes most unappreciated. A 19-year-old kid was the toast of a town that worshiped him, and he wanted to stick around and enjoy that atmosphere for another year with some of the best friends he'll ever make, before entering a cold professional environment full of interminable travel, grueling training, and countless new responsibilities. That was a perfectly fine reason to stay in school—not because it flattered the sensibilities of the pundits and the prerogatives of the coaches, but because it was his reason, on his terms.

Dukehky
03-24-2014, 05:14 PM
Of course you don't know, but we make educated guesses here. It's a fairly educated guess that Hood is gone (he's old for a first round pick, Coach K has hinted that Hood is NBA-ready, etc etc) and Parker as well (top 3 pick, NBA ready offense).

With our other players, I just don't see anyone realistically bailing. It just doesn't make sense from their point of view.

DraftExpress has Rodney in the draft and that he is staying in the draft. Our very own Airowe has tweeted that it is 99% Rodney is gone. This sucks, but best of luck stud.

CDu
03-24-2014, 05:26 PM
DraftExpress has Rodney in the draft and that he is staying in the draft. Our very own Airowe has tweeted that it is 99% Rodney is gone. This sucks, but best of luck stud.

Hood leaving would rate very very low on the surprise meter. He is a junior in terms of age and is a potential lottery pick. When you have that combination, it is rare for the player to return.

DBFAN
03-24-2014, 05:31 PM
I disagree with the deadspin article, because of one reason. By all accounts Smart was having a good season and then the unfortunate mishap in the stands happened. Now tell me this, what would have happened with him, if he was facing even more pressure to maybe be a franchise player in the league. Maybe just maybe someone knew he needed to grow up, and growing up at work, is not an ideal situation for anyone. At least now he was still just a kid. If something even remotely close like that would have happened in the NBA, he would have been considered, well, Replaceable

Dukehky
03-24-2014, 05:41 PM
Hood leaving would rate very very low on the surprise meter. He is a junior in terms of age and is a potential lottery pick. When you have that combination, it is rare for the player to return.

Totally agree, and he probably only needs one more summer's worth of classes to graduate. I'm not in the know about that, but since he's spent 2 full years at Duke, and was there over most of the summer, I can only assume he went to both summer sessions. Those classes are historically easier than fall and spring and he goes for free anyways. If he can go a make millions, and graduate from Duke reasonably soon, very little reason to stick around. Wish we had him for another year, but it is what it is.

richardjackson199
03-24-2014, 08:35 PM
DraftExpress has Rodney in the draft and that he is staying in the draft. Our very own Airowe has tweeted that it is 99% Rodney is gone. This sucks, but best of luck stud.

So Airowe is sayin there's a chance! 1/100 chance Hood stays! At this point I'll take it! :)

UrinalCake
03-24-2014, 08:57 PM
I REALLY REALLY hope Hood stays. Parker, at times seemed like a detriment to the team with his forcing shots or drives. Hood was cool and did what was needed when he could. I've come to love him -- Parker not so much

Huh. I felt the exact opposite - that Jabari at least helped us on the defensive end with his rebounding, and seemed to be have a team-first mentality. If anything we needed him to be more selfish. Hood was the more consistent scorer, but every time I saw him stand around while his man waltzed in for an offensive rebound and put-back, I wanted to strangle someone.

Looking forward to next year, I think Hood fills more of a position of need than Jabari, as Winslow is the only real swingman or "3" we'll have on the roster. Without Hood we'll be forced to play Rasheed and Jones at the 3 to make a very small lineup, reminiscent of 2012. If/when Jabari leaves we'll have Amile and Semi to man his position, obviously they aren't the same player as him but at least we have more options.

jipops
03-24-2014, 10:15 PM
I REALLY REALLY hope Hood stays. Parker, at times seemed like a detriment to the team with his forcing shots or drives. Hood was cool and did what was needed when he could. I've come to love him -- Parker not so much

What's the best way to express an eye roll here?

BobbyFan
03-24-2014, 10:25 PM
I think Jabari's best Duke comp is Loul Deng, who was NBA ready after one year. Jabari is equally if not more NBA ready and will do very well at the next level.

I just came across this and Deng's freshman season is actually very close to that of Parker's this year. There are obvious stylistic differences in their games on offense/defense, but their overall impact levels are quite similar, despite the greater accolades Parker received.


Second point - On the Kyrie Irving comparisons, I'm as big a fan as Kyrie as anyone, but I don't think it's fair to extrapolate his first 8 games to an entire season. We never go to see how Kyrie would respond to opposing defenses game-planning for him, if he would have hit a freshman wall, if he had to endure a shooting slump, etc. By comparison, Jabari's first 8 games were off the charts too.

Fair point, although I think Irving had such immense talent offensively, I doubt he would have hit a significant freshman wall. But your point holds with regard to his defense, which received excessive praise after his performance against Kalin Lucas in the MSU game.

As for Jabari, he was hitting over 60% of his 3 pointers early this season. Those numbers were sure to drop, but they actually plummeted from that point onwards, as he shot 29% on 3s the remainder of the season. His confidence in his jumper was never the same - later in the season he was was consistently passing up opportunities when his defender would give him room to shoot. It's not so much criticism of his game as it as a recognition of expected immaturity of a freshman.

Henderson
03-24-2014, 11:36 PM
I REALLY REALLY hope Hood stays. Parker, at times seemed like a detriment to the team with his forcing shots or drives. Hood was cool and did what was needed when he could. I've come to love him -- Parker not so much

Whatever you're smoking isn't legal in Tennessee.

SheltonBob
03-24-2014, 11:51 PM
I thought G would stick around for his senior season, after the way Nova punked us. We saw how that turned out. The kid certainly didn't need the money nor did the other two players who've laced it up for Duke, who had parents connected to the NBA, but they all left when they had the chance.

It would take a miracle for either Jabari or Rodney to decide to return. I wish them both well with whatever decision they make. It is after all their life.

IF MONEY IS THE KEY TO JABARI'S DECISION: Although there are salary limits in the NBA, there re no endorsement limits available to a player. What is it worth to a future star to have another year of being on the big stage in the NCAA, being a likely lst team All-American, and having success in the 2015 NCAA tournament? There might be economic benefits to coming back.

IF ENJOYING THE COLLEGE ENVIRONMENT IS THE KEY TO JABARI'S DECISION: Then we have no clue. We have no idea as to what he likes and he enjoys.

REGARDLESS: Jabari owes me nothing, but he owes himself everything. Whatever he decides - is what I support. I thank him for the joy he brought to me in 2013-2014 -

Gthoma2a
03-25-2014, 10:14 AM
The Chicago Tribune has a rather scathing view of the goings on here. They say that K never knew how to coach Parker and that K's ego got in the way of him developing.

I understand that it is his city, but this is just a hack job at the coach and the program. They completely lack perspective into what was going on in that game or what March Madness is about. It isn't about showcasing a player so that GMs get to see him in his best posture, it is trying to win. He wasn't able to defend in the game and he had been rattled into taking shots that weren't necessarily the best options. It was just not his game.

Still, worth a read since it is now the first thing that comes up when you Google Jabari Parker...

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/rosenblog/chi-jabari-parker-mike-krzyzewski-duke-20140325,0,4659932.column

flyingdutchdevil
03-25-2014, 10:47 AM
Requires a subscription

Go through google. Just type in "Jabari Parker" and click "News".

The article is harsh, that's for sure. The author clearly doesn't like Coach K or Duke and he makes that incredibly clear. I disagree with the vast majority of his points, including how Coach K used Parker. Most coaches would lessen Parker's role; Coach K heightened it.

However, there is one major point that I agree with. And it has nothing to do with Parker but rather the program. The author states that Duke has underachieved in 2 of the last 3 years, with those years ending in "embarrassing" losses. I find that difficult to disagree with. Given our plethora of riches, including our HoF coach, our many McAAs, and our great facilities, I personally believe that the ends to those seasons were embarrassing.

This may be an unpopular view here, but I needed to get that off my chest. I thought that 2012 was an aberration; that our program was always more prepared, more hungry, and willed its way to win. 2014 changed that for me.

NashvilleDevil
03-25-2014, 10:55 AM
Go through google. Just type in "Jabari Parker" and click "News".

The article is harsh, that's for sure. The author clearly doesn't like Coach K or Duke and he makes that incredibly clear. I disagree with the vast majority of his points, including how Coach K used Parker. Most coaches would lessen Parker's role; Coach K heightened it.

However, there is one major point that I agree with. And it has nothing to do with Parker but rather the program. The author states that Duke has underachieved in 2 of the last 3 years, with those years ending in "embarrassing" losses. I find that difficult to disagree with. Given our plethora of riches, including our HoF coach, our many McAAs, and our great facilities, I personally believe that the ends to those seasons were embarrassing.

This may be an unpopular view here, but I needed to get that off my chest. I thought that 2012 was an aberration; that our program was always more prepared, more hungry, and willed its way to win. 2014 changed that for me.

I went through google and read it. Um, yeah he lays into K pretty darn good. No telling what gets writting if an early exit with Jahil happens.

weezie
03-25-2014, 11:03 AM
Wowser! Not even our pal Barry Saunders has teed off on "Coach Emperor" K like that!

That is some kind of vitriol...actually kind of funny that this rosenbloom is so worked up. Hate to give it more looks but you'd think K was kicking puppies or something.

Dukehky
03-25-2014, 11:24 AM
Go through google. Just type in "Jabari Parker" and click "News".

The article is harsh, that's for sure. The author clearly doesn't like Coach K or Duke and he makes that incredibly clear. I disagree with the vast majority of his points, including how Coach K used Parker. Most coaches would lessen Parker's role; Coach K heightened it.

However, there is one major point that I agree with. And it has nothing to do with Parker but rather the program. The author states that Duke has underachieved in 2 of the last 3 years, with those years ending in "embarrassing" losses. I find that difficult to disagree with. Given our plethora of riches, including our HoF coach, our many McAAs, and our great facilities, I personally believe that the ends to those seasons were embarrassing.

This may be an unpopular view here, but I needed to get that off my chest. I thought that 2012 was an aberration; that our program was always more prepared, more hungry, and willed its way to win. 2014 changed that for me.

Agreed. Lehigh was more understandable because they had the best player on the court, still a pretty bad loss, but this year's loss was really bad. Nothing can minimize that and any attempts to are just excuses, and probably bad ones at that. No body would rather have Mercer's team than Duke's team as they were constructed.


Back on topic, I guess it's good news Jabari hasn't declared yet right? So you're sayin there's a chance!!!!????

flyingdutchdevil
03-25-2014, 11:31 AM
Agreed. Lehigh was more understandable because they had the best player on the court, still a pretty bad loss, but this year's loss was really bad. Nothing can minimize that and any attempts to are just excuses, and probably bad ones at that. No body would rather have Mercer's team than Duke's team as they were constructed.


Back on topic, I guess it's good news Jabari hasn't declared yet right? So you're sayin there's a chance!!!!????


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEhixvM0wKw

OZ
03-25-2014, 12:04 PM
The Chicago Tribune has a rather scathing view of the goings on here. They say that K never knew how to coach Parker and that K's ego got in the way of him developing.

I am not sure how Coach K could have better "developed" Parker.

He averaged double - double stats
He was well respected by his teammates
Before the year was over, he emerged to being a team leader
Academic All ACC
First Team AA
Player of the year finalists
National Freshman of the Year (obviously other coaches failed to develop their star freshmen)
Unanimous First Team All ACC
First Team All ACCT Team
ACC Freshman of the Year
I am certain other honors are to come
....and... and... He will probably be the first player drafted this year..

Would someone please tell me how much more Coach K could have helped Parker achieve?

NashvilleDevil
03-25-2014, 12:20 PM
I am not sure how Coach K could have better "developed" Parker.

He averaged double - double stats
He was well respected by his teammates
Before the year was over, he emerged to being a team leader
Academic All ACC
First Team AA
Player of the year finalists
National Freshman of the Year (obviously other coaches failed to develop their star freshmen)
Unanimous First Team All ACC
First Team All ACCT Team
ACC Freshman of the Year
I am certain other honors are to come
....and... and... He will probably be the first player drafted this year..

Would someone please tell me how much more Coach K could have helped Parker achieve?

I am sure it is just Chicago protecting their own since some people are probably blaming the player. He is the most decorated high school player to come out of Chicago and to see him lose was unexpected to everyone, not just Duke fans.

kAzE
03-25-2014, 12:40 PM
I am sure it is just Chicago protecting their own since some people are probably blaming the player. He is the most decorated high school player to come out of Chicago and to see him lose was unexpected to everyone, not just Duke fans.

Hard to go with that line of thought considering Coach K is also from Chicago.

I disagree with his point that Coach K didn't help Jabari, because I thought the way he was used in our offense for the most part was excellent. You could tell the coaching helped because of how he got better as the ACC season progressed.

Only thing that held this team back was the lack of a defensive presence inside. Our defense in the paint was horrendous all year long and there was nothing Parker or Coach K could have done to change that. He's a natural small forward and he forced to play center at times on defense, which is just not ideal.

flyingdutchdevil
03-25-2014, 12:45 PM
Hard to go with that line of thought considering Coach K is also from Chicago.

I disagree with his point that Coach K didn't help Jabari, because I thought the way he was used in our offense for the most part was excellent. You could tell the coaching helped because of how he got better as the ACC season progressed.

Only thing that held this team back was the lack of a defensive presence inside. Our defense in the paint was horrendous all year long and there was nothing Parker or Coach K could have done to change that. He's a natural small forward and he forced to play center at times on defense, which is just not ideal.

Ummmmm....Jabari's perimeter D wasn't much better. Against mobile 4s, Jabari wasn't that great. Jabari is a highly flawed defensive player. There is no denying nor arguing this.

Also, I'm not sure Jabari is a natural 3. He likes to shoot like a natural 3, but his game is that of a mobile 4. Maybe if he loses 15 pounds, he could be more of a natural 3.

CDu
03-25-2014, 12:52 PM
Hard to go with that line of thought considering Coach K is also from Chicago.

Coach K is far enough removed from Chicago (something like 50 years since he lived there) that I think the local media has made that distinction.


He's a natural small forward and he forced to play center at times on defense, which is just not ideal.

No, this is not accurate. Parker is a natural college PF. In high school, he was a natural PF/C. He played PF/C in high school defensively. In college, he played mostly PF with some C (though that decreased substantially as the season progressed).

Parker will likely be a SF in the NBA, but nothing about him suggests that he was best suited to play SF this year in college.

FerryFor50
03-25-2014, 01:05 PM
I am not sure how Coach K could have better "developed" Parker.

He averaged double - double stats
He was well respected by his teammates
Before the year was over, he emerged to being a team leader
Academic All ACC
First Team AA
Player of the year finalists
National Freshman of the Year (obviously other coaches failed to develop their star freshmen)
Unanimous First Team All ACC
First Team All ACCT Team
ACC Freshman of the Year
I am certain other honors are to come
....and... and... He will probably be the first player drafted this year..

Would someone please tell me how much more Coach K could have helped Parker achieve?

This is completely on point.

What more should have been done? He's likely going to be runner up to Doug McDermott for POY, but that's expected.

The loss to Mercer was flukey and could have happened to just about any team (and has happened over the years to every program). And it was a team loss, not just because of a misuse of Parker.

Maybe Steve Rosenbloom has an axe to grind with Duke. Maybe he's a Carolina grad/fan. Couldn't find where he went to school... or maybe he's upset that all these Chicago guys are leaving the state of Illinois for Duke.

Rosenbloom seems to be ok bashing Carlos Boozer for whining about playing time, blasting his defense here (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/rosenblog/chi-carlos-boozer-complains-about-minutes-20140204,0,7951546.column). Yet Coach K is wrong for pulling Parker for his defense?

dukelifer
03-25-2014, 01:12 PM
I am not sure how Coach K could have better "developed" Parker.

He averaged double - double stats
He was well respected by his teammates
Before the year was over, he emerged to being a team leader
Academic All ACC
First Team AA
Player of the year finalists
National Freshman of the Year (obviously other coaches failed to develop their star freshmen)
Unanimous First Team All ACC
First Team All ACCT Team
ACC Freshman of the Year
I am certain other honors are to come
....and... and... He will probably be the first player drafted this year..

Would someone please tell me how much more Coach K could have helped Parker achieve?

Apparently Dean Smith did not use Jordan correctly either- I think it worked out okay.

MCFinARL
03-25-2014, 01:33 PM
While trying to access the Rosenbloom rant I came across this very thoughtful blog post (http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/70014822/duke-freshman-jabari-parker-remains-undecided-about-nba-draft) about the way fans, etc., react to players' decisions to stay or go, using Jabari and Marcus Smart as examples. It's a good reminder that, while we may think we know what is the best choice for someone else, we don't; endless press coverage and charming PR features about Jabari bars, in addition to the games themselves, make us think we "know" Jabari Parker, but as this writer points out, that is an illusion--we know the basketball player, not the person.

Let's speculate to our heart's content, because that is what we do here. But when Jabari makes his choice, whatever it is, let's give him the respect of assuming he is capable of making the right decision for him, considering advice from those he rightly trusts.

bluenorth
03-25-2014, 01:40 PM
IF MONEY IS THE KEY TO JABARI'S DECISION: Although there are salary limits in the NBA, there re no endorsement limits available to a player. What is it worth to a future star to have another year of being on the big stage in the NCAA, being a likely lst team All-American, and having success in the 2015 NCAA tournament? There might be economic benefits to coming back.

IF ENJOYING THE COLLEGE ENVIRONMENT IS THE KEY TO JABARI'S DECISION: Then we have no clue. We have no idea as to what he likes and he enjoys.

REGARDLESS: Jabari owes me nothing, but he owes himself everything. Whatever he decides - is what I support. I thank him for the joy he brought to me in 2013-2014 -

There are lots of factors for a young man to consider, such as who else is entering the draft, the needs of the teams drafting with high choices, etc. Parker may have some second thoughts for a while after the Mercer game, but I'd be surprised if he doesn't declare. Hood, on the other hand, would be wise to wait until the last minute to declare. The 2014 draft is likely to be loaded with talent, which might make the 2015 draft more attractive for him. I agree though - whatever they decide, best of luck to both of them.

captmojo
03-25-2014, 01:41 PM
I am not sure how Coach K could have better "developed" Parker.

He averaged double - double stats
He was well respected by his teammates
Before the year was over, he emerged to being a team leader
Academic All ACC
First Team AA
Player of the year finalists
National Freshman of the Year (obviously other coaches failed to develop their star freshmen)
Unanimous First Team All ACC
First Team All ACCT Team
ACC Freshman of the Year
I am certain other honors are to come
....and... and... He will probably be the first player drafted this year..

Would someone please tell me how much more Coach K could have helped Parker achieve?


This is completely on point.

What more should have been done? He's likely going to be runner up to Doug McDermott for POY, but that's expected.

The loss to Mercer was flukey and could have happened to just about any team (and has happened over the years to every program). And it was a team loss, not just because of a misuse of Parker.

I don't see it completely "on point". As always, there's gonna be somebody, somewhere on this forum willing to disagree with the question of the color of grass in the yard. Today, I'm that guy.

Point1) Double-double stats / agreed, yet I don't think this was the focus of his instruction
2) respect / okay, respect in this case is earned rather than taught
3) a team leader / earned respect will cause you to be listened to as a leader
4) academic all-acc / personally earned
5) first team all-American / again, earned...I don't think players are instructed how to become listed as all-american
6) all-acc / see 5
7) acc freshman o'the year / again, see 5
There very well may be more honors to come. Does any coach teach any player how to win awards?
There is no guarantee that any player will be drafted #1. These top pick selections are conditional and not just under conditions of one side that would be going under contract.

How much more does he have to learn? Plenty. How about....
1) how to move and where to be without the ball
2) how to shot-fake (the entire team could use some of this knowledge)
3) there is ALWAYS room for improvement on the defensive end, no matter who you are
4) Barkley is right. (what an improvement in his skills compared to the previous two years) Even if it was immediately shown to be an anomaly, within two and a half hours, with upperclassmen at Wichita St bowing to Kentucky's underclassmen. The NBA is full of men, mentally as well as physically. I was glad to hear him say what he did. It made sense. There is a LOT more these "diaper dandies" have yet to learn.

Contrarian position ended

FerryFor50
03-25-2014, 01:53 PM
I don't see it completely "on point". As always, there's gonna be somebody, somewhere on this forum willing to disagree with the question of the color of grass in the yard. Today, I'm that guy.

Point1) Double-double stats / agreed, yet I don't think this was the focus of his instruction
2) respect / okay, respect in this case is earned rather than taught
3) a team leader / earned respect will cause you to be listened to as a leader
4) academic all-acc / personally earned
5) first team all-American / again, earned...I don't think players are instructed how to become listed as all-american
6) all-acc / see 5
7) acc freshman o'the year / again, see 5
There very well may be more honors to come. Does any coach teach any player how to win awards?
There is no guarantee that any player will be drafted #1. These top pick selections are conditional and not just under conditions of one side that would be going under contract.

How much more does he have to learn? Plenty. How about....
1) how to move and where to be without the ball
2) how to shot-fake (the entire team could use some of this knowledge)
3) there is ALWAYS room for improvement on the defensive end, no matter who you are
4) Barkley is right. (what an improvement in his skills compared to the previous two years) Even if it was immediately shown to be an anomaly, within two and a half hours, with upperclassmen at Wichita St bowing to Kentucky's underclassmen. The NBA is full of men, mentally as well as physically. I was glad to hear him say what he did. It made sense. There is a LOT more these "diaper dandies" have yet to learn.

Contrarian position ended

Understood, but a few counterpoints to your counterpoints.

1) Doesn't the coach control whether or not the player gets the ball enough/plays enough to get All-ACC, freshman player of the year, etc? I felt K gave Jabari the kind of freedom not generally granted to freshmen who aren't PGs at Duke.
2) How can the player personally earn awards but not be personally responsible for learning how to move off the ball, head fake, play defense, etc? K had Jabari for 1 year (so far). Did Parker's other coaches and former pro bball player father fail him the other 18 years of his life? At what point is it up to the player to pick those skills up?
3) Your point about Barkley supports the notion that this isn't on K; it's the nature of the beast. Young players take time to learn and develop - mentally, physically, skill-wise.

Did Rick Barnes get lambasted for Texas not winning a national championship when Kevin Durant was there? They didn't lose in the first round, but did lose in the next round to 5 seed USC (Texas was a 3 seed). They also struggled a bit vs their 13 seed, New Mexico St, before pulling away. I'd argue that Durant was the better college player by far. Better scorer. Better shooter. Better defense. Taller. better rebounder.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/boxscores/2007-03-16-new-mexico-state.html

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/texas/2007-schedule.html

pfrduke
03-25-2014, 01:55 PM
Did Rick Barnes get lambasted for Texas not winning a national championship when Kevin Durant was there? They didn't lose in the first round, but did lose in the next round to 5 seed USC (Texas was a 3 seed). They also struggled a bit vs their 13 seed, New Mexico St, before pulling away.

Rick Barnes routinely gets criticized for not making it out of the second round with Kevin Durant on his team. Then again, Rick Barnes routinely gets criticized for just about anything related to his coaching.

LobstersPinchPinch
03-25-2014, 01:57 PM
Interesting read in the Tribune. Not sure where the writer's anger is coming from, kind of over the top. But I agree with his larger point that Jabari should head to the NBA this year. From a developmental standpoint, I don't see how Duke could possibly be better than the NBA, where his life will be basketball. And though folks on this thread have talked about how much Jabari likes college, I read a quote a few weeks back where he said he hasn't experienced much of student life outside of basketball while at Duke.

As does this columnist, I have some concerns about Coach K, but I'll save those for the appropriate thread.

FerryFor50
03-25-2014, 02:00 PM
Interesting read in the Tribune. Not sure where the writer's anger is coming from, kind of over the top. But I agree with his larger point that Jabari should head to the NBA this year. From a developmental standpoint, I don't see how Duke could possibly be better than the NBA, where his life will be basketball. And though folks on this thread have talked about how much Jabari likes college, I read a quote a few weeks back where he said he hasn't experienced much of student life outside of basketball while at Duke.

As does this columnist, I have some concerns about Coach K, but I'll save those for the appropriate thread.

Jabari would have plenty of time to develop in the NBA, but how much would he actually play? For a comp, see Anthony Bennett, who as the #1 pick, can barely get off the bench on a mediocre Cleveland team. If Parker came back to school, he'd have all the PT he wanted, get to work with a number of other NBA ready guys and be able to learn team defense a little better.

The main downside with that is he wouldn't be getting paid to do it.

wilson
03-25-2014, 02:02 PM
...I came across this very thoughtful blog post (http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/70014822/duke-freshman-jabari-parker-remains-undecided-about-nba-draft) about the way fans, etc., react to players' decisions to stay or go, using Jabari and Marcus Smart as examples. It's a good reminder that, while we may think we know what is the best choice for someone else, we don't; endless press coverage and charming PR features about Jabari bars, in addition to the games themselves, make us think we "know" Jabari Parker, but as this writer points out, that is an illusion--we know the basketball player, not the person. I saw that piece too, and it's a good one for fans to read, if for no other reason to remember that this decision has nothing to do with us and we really have no right to criticize either way.
For every player who rides a four-year career to a glorious exit a la Shane Battier, there is a Chris Porter (http://www.goldenstateofmind.com/santa-cruz-warriors/2013/1/3/3832776/santa-cruz-warriors-vs-fort-wayne-mad-ants-chris-porter)...remember him? He was the team leader for an Auburn squad that got a #1 seed in the 1999 NCAA Tournament, came back for another go-round, appeared on the cover of Sports Illustrated in November '99, and then experienced a drop in production during his final year, went late in the 2nd round to Golden State, flamed out quickly, and has experienced at least one arrest and years of NBDL toil in the years since then.
There are a host of both success stories about would-be high draft picks who came back for another year and used it as a career springboard, and cautionary tales about players who took ill-advised (at least in retrospect) passes on the draft. Cherry picking one or the other is nothing but self-serving flagwaving, because we as fans want one result or another.
Even if you think another year of "development" is in a player's best interest, the point is debatable. At least one NBA analyst says that second year players develop better in the NBA than in college. See here (http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/do-players-develop-better-in-the-pros-or-in-college--the-stats-are-unclear-001620476.html) and here (http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10588150/nba-why-nba-develops-players-better-college/refresh/true) (second link is ESPN Insider).

toooskies
03-25-2014, 02:09 PM
One of the convincing arguments I've heard to change the rule from one-and-done to two-and-done is that freshmen don't develop the leadership skills that would help them be alpha dogs in the NBA. Sure, they might be the best player on the team, but they rarely define the character of the team as a freshman, and even rarer still do they lead those teams to great post-season success. The few examples of one-and-done postseason leadership success (Derrick Rose, Carmelo Anthony, Anthony Davis) is dwindled by the one-and-dones from just this year (assuming Jabari, Wiggins, Embiid, Ennis go pro). It's hard for a freshman to motivate the whole team.

But you look at the list of one-and-dones in the NBA, and you have a similar trend of mediocre results at the pro level. Kevin Love hasn't even made the postseason, despite possibly being the 3rd best player in the NBA according to some metrics. Tyreke Evans, despite talent, is a cancer. DeMar DeRozan? DeMarcus Cousins? Kyrie, Tristan Thompson, Michael Beasley, OJ Mayo, Eric Gordon, Jrue Holiday, John Wall, Derrick Favors? Some have turned into good NBA players, but there isn't a leader among them. (Maybe you give Wall some credit, but...)

You really have Kevin Durant and Derrick Rose, and everybody else. Just the two guys who are successful one-and-dones. You can argue that big talents land on bad teams, but that's the point-- these guys have the talent to transform their teams into winners, and some of them have developed the skills. But they aren't leaders, partly because they never learned how to be leaders.

Kedsy
03-25-2014, 02:10 PM
Jabari would have plenty of time to develop in the NBA, but how much would he actually play? For a comp, see Anthony Bennett, who as the #1 pick, can barely get off the bench on a mediocre Cleveland team. If Parker came back to school, he'd have all the PT he wanted, get to work with a number of other NBA ready guys and be able to learn team defense a little better.

The main downside with that is he wouldn't be getting paid to do it.

I don't know about anywhere else, but if Jabari goes to the 76ers, he'll play around 45 minutes a game.

FerryFor50
03-25-2014, 02:11 PM
I don't know about anywhere else, but if Jabari goes to the 76ers, he'll play around 45 minutes a game.

True... but with the Sixers' luck, they'll fall out of the top 3 and end up with the #4 pick. :D

flyingdutchdevil
03-25-2014, 02:15 PM
True... but with the Sixers' luck, they'll fall out of the top 3 and end up with the #4 pick. :D

Somehow, I think you're gonna be right. The 2010s just isn't the Sixers decade (much like the 2000 weren't the Clippers decade).

Jabari will probably end up on the Celtics. Why? Because I pray to the basketball gods that I can get season tickets and watch Jabari live on a weekly basis.

You watch - I'm gonna be right.

wilson
03-25-2014, 02:16 PM
...these guys have the talent to transform their teams into winners, and some of them have developed the skills. But they aren't leaders, partly because they never learned how to be leaders.You make some good points, but I'd take exception to this part. I don't really think it's fair to say that these franchises have failed to drag themselves out of mediocrity because their high draft picks didn't possess the requisite leadership acumen. Basketball is a team game, so to say that one player is supposed to "fix" a franchise (especially one with dysfunctional culture, like many of these high-drafting teams have) is overly simplistic in my opinion. It's particularly unfair when said player is all of about 19 years old, like your typical one-and-done draftee. Even if a kid has great leadership skills for a nineteen year-old, those skills don't necessarily translate to a readiness to lead a professional franchise (again, especially an unsuccessful one seeking a turnaround) from day one.

FerryFor50
03-25-2014, 02:18 PM
One of the convincing arguments I've heard to change the rule from one-and-done to two-and-done is that freshmen don't develop the leadership skills that would help them be alpha dogs in the NBA. Sure, they might be the best player on the team, but they rarely define the character of the team as a freshman, and even rarer still do they lead those teams to great post-season success. The few examples of one-and-done postseason leadership success (Derrick Rose, Carmelo Anthony, Anthony Davis) is dwindled by the one-and-dones from just this year (assuming Jabari, Wiggins, Embiid, Ennis go pro). It's hard for a freshman to motivate the whole team.

But you look at the list of one-and-dones in the NBA, and you have a similar trend of mediocre results at the pro level. Kevin Love hasn't even made the postseason, despite possibly being the 3rd best player in the NBA according to some metrics. Tyreke Evans, despite talent, is a cancer. DeMar DeRozan? DeMarcus Cousins? Kyrie, Tristan Thompson, Michael Beasley, OJ Mayo, Eric Gordon, Jrue Holiday, John Wall, Derrick Favors? Some have turned into good NBA players, but there isn't a leader among them. (Maybe you give Wall some credit, but...)

You really have Kevin Durant and Derrick Rose, and everybody else. Just the two guys who are successful one-and-dones. You can argue that big talents land on bad teams, but that's the point-- these guys have the talent to transform their teams into winners, and some of them have developed the skills. But they aren't leaders, partly because they never learned how to be leaders.

I think your evaluation of one and done NBA players is severely skewed.

Kevin Love is an ELITE NBA player. He's on a Hall of Fame track, has made the Olympic team and simply plays on a bad team with a BAD front office.

Carmelo Anthony is also a very successful one and done player. Despite his recent team struggles, he was making the playoffs regularly for awhile in Denver. Also on a Hall of Fame track and is one of the top 5-10 players in the league right now.

Anthony Davis is also becoming an ELITE NBA player. Just is on a bad team.

John Wall, DeMarcus Cousins, Kyrie Irving, DeMar DeRozan, Jrue Holiday... all star players. Some have holes in their games, some are head cases. Many of them could make the leap to elite.

Kevin Durant has had the good fortune of having one of the top NBA point guards, as well as a few years of the best sixth man (Harden) and the best defensive player (Ibaka) and a smart front office. It is hard to argue that Durant alone made his team a contender.

Derrick Rose is an interesting case, but he's been injured a lot more than he's led his team to the playoffs at this point. In fact, his team is in position to make the playoffs without him.

There are TONS of examples of one and done players succeeding at the next level. Tons. So many that you could say there is negligible risk of going to the NBA out of college. If you can play, you can play. If you're a head case, then that's on you.

CDu
03-25-2014, 02:22 PM
Jabari would have plenty of time to develop in the NBA, but how much would he actually play? For a comp, see Anthony Bennett, who as the #1 pick, can barely get off the bench on a mediocre Cleveland team. If Parker came back to school, he'd have all the PT he wanted, get to work with a number of other NBA ready guys and be able to learn team defense a little better.

The main downside with that is he wouldn't be getting paid to do it.

I suspect that Parker will play right away and quite often next year if he goes to the NBA. The issue for Bennett was that he was a somewhat-raw PF that went to a team with two much better PFs (Varejao and Thompson). So unless Parker goes to a team with much better options at SF, I don't think Bennett is a good comp. To wit: Anthony Davis was drafted #1 and played 28.8 mpg as a rookie. Michael Kidd-Gilchrist went #2 and averaged 26.0 mpg as a rookie. Brad Beal averaged 31.2 mpg. John Wall averaged 37.8 mpg. Derrick Rose averaged 37.0 mpg. Kyrie Irving averaged 30.5 mpg. Luol Deng averaged 27.3 mpg.

Is it possible that Parker could wind up in a situation where he doesn't play much as a rookie? I guess. But I'd consider that to be really unlikely. I think Bennett was just an extreme outlier case of a guy who was a VERY questionable #1 pick in a very weak draft taken by a team that didn't have a need for a guy at his position. It's like the perfect storm of a bad situation for a rookie's playing time.

FerryFor50
03-25-2014, 02:28 PM
I suspect that Parker will play right away and quite often next year if he goes to the NBA. The issue for Bennett was that he was a somewhat-raw PF that went to a team with two much better PFs (Varejao and Thompson). So unless Parker goes to a team with much better options at SF, I don't think Bennett is a good comp. To wit: Anthony Davis was drafted #1 and played 28.8 mpg as a rookie. Michael Kidd-Gilchrist went #2 and averaged 26.0 mpg as a rookie. Brad Beal averaged 31.2 mpg. John Wall averaged 37.8 mpg. Derrick Rose averaged 37.0 mpg. Kyrie Irving averaged 30.5 mpg. Luol Deng averaged 27.3 mpg.

Is it possible that Parker could wind up in a situation where he doesn't play much as a rookie? I guess. But I'd consider that to be really unlikely. I think Bennett was just an extreme outlier case of a guy who was a VERY questionable #1 pick in a very weak draft taken by a team that didn't have a need for a guy at his position. It's like the perfect storm of a bad situation for a rookie's playing time.

Agreed. But who knows what happens. Maybe Jabari goes to a team that thought he was better than he was and then finds himself in the coach's doghouse. Unlikely, but much more plausible than Parker not playing much at Duke.

CDu
03-25-2014, 02:29 PM
Derrick Rose is an interesting case, but he's been injured a lot more than he's led his team to the playoffs at this point. In fact, his team is in position to make the playoffs without him.

Just to be fair, Rose has had just two major injuries. One cost him all of last year; the other cost him all of this year. But prior to that he'd led the Bulls to the best record in the East (sometimes in the entire NBA) for 3 years running. And in his rookie year, he helped get Chicago back into the playoffs after a brief hiatus. I don't think he's at all an interesting case. He's a fantastic player who had put together four outstanding seasons before blowing out both knees over an 18-month span.

That the Bulls are going to make the playoffs this year without him is more an indictment of the Eastern Conference and a commendation Thibs' coaching and Noah's amazingness (seriously folks, look at some of Noah's box scores this season... and as the best defensive center in the league... ridiculous) than it is a smudge on his value as a player. The Bulls without Rose are probably 10-15 games worse per season than they are with Rose.

captmojo
03-25-2014, 02:33 PM
If the talent is there, it's a question of proper maturity then, right? I think education will continue forever. It's his choice.
I only hope he makes the right one for his own success.

FerryFor50
03-25-2014, 02:34 PM
Just to be fair, Rose has had just two major injuries. One cost him all of last year; the other cost him all of this year. But prior to that he'd led the Bulls to the best record in the East (sometimes in the entire NBA) for 3 years running. And in his rookie year, he helped get Chicago back into the playoffs after a brief hiatus. I don't think he's at all an interesting case. He's a fantastic player who had put together four outstanding seasons before blowing out both knees over an 18-month span.

That the Bulls are going to make the playoffs this year without him is more an indictment of the Eastern Conference and a commendation Thibs' coaching and Noah's amazingness (seriously folks, look at some of Noah's box scores this season... and as the best defensive center in the league... ridiculous) than it is a smudge on his value as a player. The Bulls without Rose are probably 10-15 games worse per season than they are with Rose.

Oh no doubt he's a fantastic player. But can you say that he alone transformed those teams? He had a bit of help... Noah, Boozer, Deng, Thibodeau, etc. The OP was arguing that Rose and Durant were the *only* one and done players who have been successful and it was all because of their greatness. I disagreed with the premise and the reasoning.

flyingdutchdevil
03-25-2014, 02:34 PM
I suspect that Parker will play right away and quite often next year if he goes to the NBA. The issue for Bennett was that he was a somewhat-raw PF that went to a team with two much better PFs (Varejao and Thompson). So unless Parker goes to a team with much better options at SF, I don't think Bennett is a good comp. To wit: Anthony Davis was drafted #1 and played 28.8 mpg as a rookie. Michael Kidd-Gilchrist went #2 and averaged 26.0 mpg as a rookie. Brad Beal averaged 31.2 mpg. John Wall averaged 37.8 mpg. Derrick Rose averaged 37.0 mpg. Kyrie Irving averaged 30.5 mpg. Luol Deng averaged 27.3 mpg.

Is it possible that Parker could wind up in a situation where he doesn't play much as a rookie? I guess. But I'd consider that to be really unlikely. I think Bennett was just an extreme outlier case of a guy who was a VERY questionable #1 pick in a very weak draft taken by a team that didn't have a need for a guy at his position. It's like the perfect storm of a bad situation for a rookie's playing time.

Here are list of teams that will probably get a top 5-7 pick and the best SF in parenthesis:

-Milwaukee (Khris Middleton / Carlos Delfino)
-Philly (Jason Richardson / Thaddeus Young*)
-Orlando (Thobias Harris)
-Boston (Jeff Green)
-Utah (Marvin Williams / Richard Jefferson / Gordon Hayward*)
-LA Lakers (Nick Young)
-Sacramento (Rudy Gay)
-Detroit (Kyle Singler / Josh Smith**)

I put an asterisk around Young and Hayward because their more natural positions are PF and SG, respectively. Josh Smith is an SF in Detroit, but it's well known that either Smith or Monroe is being traded this summer because the three PF experiment didn't work out. Outside of those three players, the only player that I deem better than Jabari in the whole list is Jeff Green, because he is significantly more mature and plays great D. But Jabari has a much, much higher ceiling.

Jabari would play over every single one of those players as he is more offensively gifted and has the highest ceiling.

If Jabari goes to one of those teams, he's gonna play. And if the Celtics draft them, they are either going to move Jeff Green or play Green/Jabari at the 4.

FerryFor50
03-25-2014, 02:38 PM
Here are list of teams that will probably get a top 5-7 pick and the best SF in parenthesis:

-Milwaukee (Khris Middleton / Carlos Delfino)
-Philly (Jason Richardson / Thaddeus Young*)
-Orlando (Thobias Harris)
-Boston (Jeff Green)
-Utah (Marvin Williams / Richard Jefferson / Gordon Hayward*)
-LA Lakers (Nick Young)
-Sacramento (Rudy Gay)
-Detroit (Kyle Singler / Josh Smith**)

I put an asterisk around Young and Hayward because their more natural positions are PF and SG, respectively. Josh Smith is an SF in Detroit, but it's well known that either Smith or Monroe is being traded this summer because the three PF experiment didn't work out. Outside of those three players, the only player that I deem better than Jabari in the whole list is Jeff Green, because he is significantly more mature and plays great D. But Jabari has a much, much higher ceiling.

Jabari would play over every single one of those players as he is more offensively gifted and has the highest ceiling.

If Jabari goes to one of those teams, he's gonna play. And if the Celtics draft them, they are either going to move Jeff Green or play Green/Jabari at the 4.

I doubt Jabari would play over Rudy Gay or Gordon Hayward (and maybe even Jeff Green) in his first year. Philly would likely amnesty Richardson and move Young to a different position to play with Parker.

Definitely wouldn't beat out Josh Smith. Everyone else, I agree with.

NashvilleDevil
03-25-2014, 02:39 PM
As does this columnist, I have some concerns about Coach K, but I'll save those for the appropriate thread.

By looking at your previous posts regarding coaching most of us know what your concerns are.

mr. synellinden
03-25-2014, 02:42 PM
More food for thought (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2014/3/24/5541716/nba-stars-march-madness-jabari-parker-andrew-wiggins)

dukebluesincebirth
03-25-2014, 02:44 PM
I apologize if this has already been asked in the thread, but when is the cutoff date to declare for the nba draft? Are there any advantages/disadvantages to waiting to put one's name in the hat?

flyingdutchdevil
03-25-2014, 02:44 PM
I doubt Jabari would play over Rudy Gay or Gordon Hayward (and maybe even Jeff Green) in his first year. Philly would likely amnesty Richardson and move Young to a different position to play with Parker.

Definitely wouldn't beat out Josh Smith. Everyone else, I agree with.

Again, Gordon Hayward is more of an SG. Jefferson plays SF on Utah right now. Rudy Gay has been bounced around the league and every time he leaves a team, that team gets a lot better (Toronto, Memphis). Due to pressure from fans and the front office, Jabari would start. The Celtics are moving in one of two directions: fire sale everyone (including Rondo and Green) for multiple young, good assets, or keep Rondo and get two stars to play with him. Either way, Green is out of Boston this summer.

Jabari will play. I don't doubt that at all. What I am worried about is his defense, where bad in college = David Lee in the NBA. That's not good...

CDu
03-25-2014, 02:50 PM
Oh no doubt he's a fantastic player. But can you say that he alone transformed those teams? He had a bit of help... Noah, Boozer, Deng, Thibodeau, etc. The OP was arguing that Rose and Durant were the *only* one and done players who have been successful and it was all because of their greatness. I disagreed with the premise and the reasoning.

I mean, I do think that both Rose and Durant are truly great players. They are on the very short list of best examples of one-and-done success. But I don't think they are the only one-and-dones that are great. Aside from LeBron James, I'm not sure that ANY player alone transforms a team these days.

I do think that if you take Durant off of the Thunder they drop 10-15 games. I think we've seen that losing Rose probably costs the Bulls 10-15 games. That's a huge impact.

But I do agree that guys like Love, Davis, etc. are also guys who were one-and-dones that have had huge impacts on their teams. Rose and Durant have been more successful; in part because of their individual greatness and in part because of their team.

wilson
03-25-2014, 02:51 PM
What I am worried about is his defense, where bad in college = David Lee in the NBA. That's not good...I don't quite follow this. David Lee plays about 35 minutes a game and is a double-double machine. Are you just saying that defense doesn't matter much in the NBA (not attacking; honestly just unclear about your point)?

FerryFor50
03-25-2014, 02:53 PM
I apologize if this has already been asked in the thread, but when is the cutoff date to declare for the nba draft? Are there any advantages/disadvantages to waiting to put one's name in the hat?

April 27 is the cut off to announce. June 16 is the last day you can pull your name back out.

http://www.insidehoops.com/calendar.shtml

NashvilleDevil
03-25-2014, 02:53 PM
More food for thought (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2014/3/24/5541716/nba-stars-march-madness-jabari-parker-andrew-wiggins)

I saw no mention of Calipari missing the tournament and getting beat by Robert Morris in the NIT last year.

FerryFor50
03-25-2014, 02:55 PM
I saw no mention of Calipari missing the tournament and getting beat by Robert Morris in the NIT last year.

That's because the one and done system is WORKING for him. Don't you see? Beating a questionable 1 seed to make it to the sweet 16 is success that should be lauded!

I'll wait for the results of this weekend's games to see if the "one and done" system of Calipari is working or not...

CDu
03-25-2014, 02:58 PM
I doubt Jabari would play over Rudy Gay or Gordon Hayward (and maybe even Jeff Green) in his first year. Philly would likely amnesty Richardson and move Young to a different position to play with Parker.

Definitely wouldn't beat out Josh Smith. Everyone else, I agree with.

Parker would probably play ahead of Hayward if push came to shove. But the more likely scenario is that Hayward would move to SG.

Parker may or may not play ahead of Jeff Green (it's not like Green has actually been that good; 41.2 FG% and less than 5 rpg last year to go along with his 17 ppg). But if the Celtics didn't think he'd play over Jeff Green then they wouldn't likely draft Parker. Ainge isn't dumb like the Cavs' GM.

I wouldn't expect Parker to beat out Josh Smith. But as was mentioned, it is likely that someone is getting traded there. Either Smith is traded or Monroe is traded and Smith moves to PF (since he's not a SF). So I wouldn't expect that to be an issue where Parker would be competing with Smith for minutes. Thaddeus Young is primarily a PF anyway, so Parker would play alongside him there.

So basically, you have 1 or 2 teams for which it is possible that someone blocks Parker from starting. And those 1 or 2 teams probably wouldn't take Parker if they felt he wouldn't start for them right away. So basically I don't see a scenario in which Parker wouldn't be playing major minutes in the NBA.

You're right that there is NO scenario in which he'd have limited minutes at Duke. But the likelihood of him having limited NBA minutes is so small that I wouldn't even consider it among the risk factors to worry about with respect to his decision.

theschwartz
03-25-2014, 03:06 PM
April 27 is the cut off to announce. June 16 is the last day you can pull your name back out.

http://www.insidehoops.com/calendar.shtml

This has a bit more info on the draft announcement process. The NCAA cutoff to withdraw your name from the draft is April 15 while the NBA cutoff to announce is April 27, so most players on the fence are going to wait until April 27 before they make an official decision. Unfortunately, the NCAA makes it nearly impossible for players to "test the waters" before deciding to go all in.

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Testing-the-NBA-Draft-Waters-in-2014-4412

CDu
03-25-2014, 03:11 PM
April 27 is the cut off to announce. June 16 is the last day you can pull your name back out.

http://www.insidehoops.com/calendar.shtml

Just to clarify, those dates are the NBA deadlines (April 27 is the NBA deadline to enter the draft June 16 is the NBA deadline to withdraw from the draft). But I'm pretty sure that the NCAA deadline to withdraw (and still maintain eligibility) after announcing is still prior to the first day of the spring signing period. At least it was last year.

In terms of losing eligibility, though, the April 27 deadline is the important one. Players can decide to go pro any time by April 27 and be eligible for the draft. And the June 16 date is irrelevant for college. If a player doesn't withdraw before the spring signing period, they forfeit their remaining eligibility. So withdrawing from the draft seems a bit silly at that point.

Edit: looks like theschwartz beat me to the punch. Never underestimate the power of theschwartz...

FerryFor50
03-25-2014, 03:12 PM
This has a bit more info on the draft announcement process. The NCAA cutoff to withdraw your name from the draft is April 15 while the NBA cutoff to announce is April 27, so most players on the fence are going to wait until April 27 before they make an official decision. Unfortunately, the NCAA makes it nearly impossible for players to "test the waters" before deciding to go all in.

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Testing-the-NBA-Draft-Waters-in-2014-4412

Right. Forgot about the NCAA's undermining rule. :)

wilson
03-25-2014, 03:17 PM
Apologies if this has already been posted, but here's another of the "staying in school is (at least sometimes) not a bad idea" voices. Pretty well stated, even if I don't fully agree. Apropos of some of our conversation here, the crux of the column is the value of developing fuller leadership skills.
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/hotsportstakes-does-andrew-wiggins-want-to-get-rich-or-get-better/

RoyalBlue08
03-25-2014, 03:23 PM
Apologies if this has already been posted, but here's another of the "staying in school is (at least sometimes) not a bad idea" voices. Pretty well stated, even if I don't fully agree. Apropos of some of our conversation here, the crux of the column is the value of developing fuller leadership skills.
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/hotsportstakes-does-andrew-wiggins-want-to-get-rich-or-get-better/

These #hotsportstakes columns are satire, not meant to be taken seriously.

NashvilleDevil
03-25-2014, 03:24 PM
Apologies if this has already been posted, but here's another of the "staying in school is (at least sometimes) not a bad idea" voices. Pretty well stated, even if I don't fully agree. Apropos of some of our conversation here, the crux of the column is the value of developing fuller leadership skills.
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/hotsportstakes-does-andrew-wiggins-want-to-get-rich-or-get-better/

Andrew Sharp does this in an attempt at satire. He has a whole catalog of similar posts.

dukelifer
03-25-2014, 03:42 PM
Not sure if folks saw this but Time Magazine is listing Jabari as an Alum. Looks like they think he is staying ;)

http://time.com/27821/us-college-rankings/

Bad news is that according to Time UNC is slightly more influential than Duke

CDu
03-25-2014, 03:46 PM
Not sure if folks saw this but Time Magazine is listing Jabari as an Alum. Looks like they think he is staying ;)

http://time.com/27821/us-college-rankings/

Bad news is that according to Time UNC is slightly more influential than Duke

FYI - "alum" doesn't exclusively mean graduate: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/alumnus

dukelifer
03-25-2014, 04:13 PM
FYI - "alum" doesn't exclusively mean graduate: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/alumnus

Sadly you are right - they list Mike Chappell and Billy McCaffrey. That was the best they could do for former alums? Still interesting that they have him as a former student given that he is still a student as far as I know.

flyingdutchdevil
03-25-2014, 04:29 PM
I don't quite follow this. David Lee plays about 35 minutes a game and is a double-double machine. Are you just saying that defense doesn't matter much in the NBA (not attacking; honestly just unclear about your point)?

No no. Arguing that Jabari's bad defense will translate into really bad defense in the NBA, where players like David Lee and Amare Stoudemire are only offensive players.

Defense is important in the NBA, especially to be considered great. The majority of great NBA players were at least competent on the D end.

Man, today is not my day for getting my point across.

rsvman
03-25-2014, 05:36 PM
....Man, today is not my day for getting my point across.

I'm sorry, what? ;)

OZ
03-25-2014, 06:06 PM
I don't see it completely "on point". As always, there's gonna be somebody, somewhere on this forum willing to disagree with the question of the color of grass in the yard. Today, I'm that guy.

Point1) Double-double stats / agreed, yet I don't think this was the focus of his instruction
2) respect / okay, respect in this case is earned rather than taught
3) a team leader / earned respect will cause you to be listened to as a leader
4) academic all-acc / personally earned
5) first team all-American / again, earned...I don't think players are instructed how to become listed as all-american
6) all-acc / see 5
7) acc freshman o'the year / again, see 5
There very well may be more honors to come. Does any coach teach any player how to win awards?
There is no guarantee that any player will be drafted #1. These top pick selections are conditional and not just under conditions of one side that would be going under contract.

How much more does he have to learn? Plenty.

First, I think a coach plays a vital role in teaching the fundamentals that enables one to achieve the honors mentioned.
Second, a coach has a great deal to do with creating the environment that stresses the importance of personal and academic development. I have heard numerous past Duke players speak of the influence K had in their "personal" development and the "life" lessons they STILL carry with them.
Third, I NEVER stated that he would be GUARANTEED to be drafted # 1. Much of your disagreement seems to come from insertions you are making.
Fourth, you asked, "How much more does he have to learn?" That is YOUR question not mine. My question was in reference to the subject of Parker's development under K. My question was simply raising the issue... what MORE could Coach K have done to aid in the development of Parker this ONE year? Yes, I agree, that he still has a lot more to learn; but "how much more he has to learn" was not the issue. That was your editorial addition.

BTW, my grass is presently green. You are more than welcome to come by and disagree.

BD80
03-25-2014, 06:43 PM
Ummmmm....Jabari's perimeter D wasn't much better. Against mobile 4s, Jabari wasn't that great. Jabari is a highly flawed defensive player. There is no denying nor arguing this. ...

On a fan board? No arguing? giggle.


True... but with the Sixers' luck, they'll fall out of the top 3 and end up with the #4 pick. :D

With the Sixers' luck, they'll go into the lottery at #4 and wind up with the #7 pick

gurufrisbee
03-25-2014, 10:41 PM
I've pretty much settled on my position. I'm 95% Jabari is gone. I wish he would stay. I think he should stay. To me, I don't see the odds of a career ending injury happening next year in college being a big enough fear. To me, I do say things like building a real legacy as a college player and a Duke player as being significant. Trying to win the ACC and national POY awards. Improving the several aspects of his game that could be improved. Having a shot at a conference title, conference tourney, final four, championship, etc.. Becoming a leader on the floor. Learning from the greatest coach in the sport. It's all way too big to compare with one more year of more money than you'll ever be able to spend anyways. But I still think he will go. And while I will wish him well, it will feel like he used Duke for a year and left. He'll never feel like one those real Duke players in my heart that I always root for no matter what NBA team they are on. I imagine I'm in the minority in that opinion (not the part about wanting him to stay - but the part about his legacy in my mind). I can live with that. I don't imagine my opinion will sway him and it shouldn't. That's my two cents.

LobstersPinchPinch
03-25-2014, 11:08 PM
And while I will wish him well, it will feel like he used Duke for a year and left. He'll never feel like one those real Duke players in my heart that I always root for no matter what NBA team they are on. I imagine I'm in the minority in that opinion (not the part about wanting him to stay - but the part about his legacy in my mind). I can live with that. I don't imagine my opinion will sway him and it shouldn't. That's my two cents.

Funny, I think he should go but I'm guessing he'll stay.

If he does go, I don't think I'll feel he "used Duke" in any way. Re: feeling that he's not a "Duke" player, I'm curious if that's because he only stayed a year or something else. Maybe it's because D never seemed important to him, and I've always associated Duke with strong D, but I might see where you're coming from on that one...

Kedsy
03-26-2014, 12:19 AM
To me, I don't see the odds of a career ending injury happening next year in college being a big enough fear.

Easy for you to say.


And while I will wish him well, it will feel like he used Duke for a year and left. He'll never feel like one those real Duke players in my heart that I always root for no matter what NBA team they are on.

How do you feel about Kyrie Irving?

Also, Jabari used Duke? To what end? We pursued him, not the other way around. He could have gone anywhere if it was just a placeholder, but he chose Duke.

And it's not like he deceived Coach K or anything, we've been hearing since before the season started that he was almost certain to leave at the end of the year. I get that some people don't like having one-and-dones at Duke. We have like 19 threads about it right now. But it's a fact of life and my guess is most of the people who rail against one-and-dones would be even less happy if we only recruited guys outside the top 20. Either way, I can't see how anyone used anyone in this scenario.

toooskies
03-26-2014, 12:29 AM
Oh no doubt he's a fantastic player. But can you say that he alone transformed those teams? He had a bit of help... Noah, Boozer, Deng, Thibodeau, etc. The OP was arguing that Rose and Durant were the *only* one and done players who have been successful and it was all because of their greatness. I disagreed with the premise and the reasoning.

I am not saying Durant and Rose were the only good players; I may never do anything as well as Kevin Love performs on the basketball court. What I am saying is, Durant and Rose seem to be a cut above everyone else in terms of leadership.

There is a lot of talent in Cleveland right now, with lots of high picks as well aS decent NBA players like Deng, Jack, Varejao, Bynum early in the year... All have contributed to winning teams, but most have performed poorly since putting on a Cavs jersey. Something big is missing in Cleveland. That is leadership. It needs to come from the team's best player, and it isn't.

I don't follow Minnesota at all, but they will miss the playoffs again this year. Is Love a Hall of Famer if he never makes the playoffs? New Orleans has tons of talent on their roster, but they aren't jelling into anything good as a team yet.

Leadership is a thing. Most one-and-dones simply don't have it.

CDu
03-26-2014, 12:37 AM
I am not saying Durant and Rose were the only good players; I may never do anything as well as Kevin Love performs on the basketball court. What I am saying is, Durant and Rose seem to be a cut above everyone else in terms of leadership.

There is a lot of talent in Cleveland right now, with lots of high picks as well aS decent NBA players like Deng, Jack, Varejao, Bynum early in the year... All have contributed to winning teams, but most have performed poorly since putting on a Cavs jersey. Something big is missing in Cleveland. That is leadership. It needs to come from the team's best player, and it isn't.

I don't follow Minnesota at all, but they will miss the playoffs again this year. Is Love a Hall of Famer if he never makes the playoffs? New Orleans has tons of talent on their roster, but they aren't jelling into anything good as a team yet.

Leadership is a thing. Most one-and-dones simply don't have it.

I would argue that most players, period, don't have it. Regardless of one-and-done, two-and-done, none-and-done, etc.

Does LeBron lack leadership skills? How about Garnett? Bryant? Those guys had no college experience, but they lead/led just fine.

I suspect that the percentage of great players/leaders is just as high among one-and-dones as it is for four-year guys (or any other level of experience).

Des Esseintes
03-26-2014, 01:00 AM
Easy for you to say.

How do you feel about Kyrie Irving?

Also, Jabari used Duke? To what end? We pursued him, not the other way around. He could have gone anywhere if it was just a placeholder, but he chose Duke.

And it's not like he deceived Coach K or anything, we've been hearing since before the season started that he was almost certain to leave at the end of the year. I get that some people don't like having one-and-dones at Duke. We have like 19 threads about it right now. But it's a fact of life and my guess is most of the people who rail against one-and-dones would be even less happy if we only recruited guys outside the top 20. Either way, I can't see how anyone used anyone in this scenario.

Here's something I wonder sometimes. How many people in life, and how many people on this board in particular, made any effort to "leave a legacy" when they were 19 years old? I know I didn't. I know none of my friends behaved in such a way. It's funny how easy it is to ask a stranger to hold himself to a standard we would never dream of applying to ourselves, and profess contempt for him when he doesn't meet it.

Des Esseintes
03-26-2014, 01:04 AM
I would argue that most players, period, don't have it. Regardless of one-and-done, two-and-done, none-and-done, etc.

Does LeBron lack leadership skills? How about Garnett? Bryant? Those guys had no college experience, but they lead/led just fine.

I suspect that the percentage of great players/leaders is just as high among one-and-dones as it is for four-year guys (or any other level of experience).

Except that, you know, there are almost no great players today who were four-year guys. In half a decade, there will likely be none at all. The NBA will probably find a way to stumble forward without all that amazing college leadership, though.

These threads are so weird. It's as if people think the amateur league with lower-paid staffs is the only place where guys can be coached properly. K is amazing, but people should really wake up and realize that by and large the best basketball coaches in the world coach at the NBA level. And--and this gets talked about not nearly enough--the smartest basketball players play at the NBA level. The NBA offers so much potential for learning. Our insistence that knowledge ends at the Durham city limits sounds absurdly provincial.

(Also, agreed on your point that leadership is just generally a rare attribute.)

FerryFor50
03-26-2014, 01:11 AM
I am not saying Durant and Rose were the only good players; I may never do anything as well as Kevin Love performs on the basketball court. What I am saying is, Durant and Rose seem to be a cut above everyone else in terms of leadership.

There is a lot of talent in Cleveland right now, with lots of high picks as well aS decent NBA players like Deng, Jack, Varejao, Bynum early in the year... All have contributed to winning teams, but most have performed poorly since putting on a Cavs jersey. Something big is missing in Cleveland. That is leadership. It needs to come from the team's best player, and it isn't.

I don't follow Minnesota at all, but they will miss the playoffs again this year. Is Love a Hall of Famer if he never makes the playoffs? New Orleans has tons of talent on their roster, but they aren't jelling into anything good as a team yet.

Leadership is a thing. Most one-and-dones simply don't have it.

Love will make the playoffs, once he leaves Minny as a free agent. ;)

gurufrisbee
03-26-2014, 01:23 AM
How do you feel about Kyrie Irving?
.

Exactly the same. Always have. Maybe even more so with Irving.



If he does go, I don't think I'll feel he "used Duke" in any way. Re: feeling that he's not a "Duke" player, I'm curious if that's because he only stayed a year or something else. Maybe it's because D never seemed important to him, and I've always associated Duke with strong D, but I might see where you're coming from on that one...

I'm not saying he did use Duke. Obviously both sides have to agree to such things. But that's how it feels.


Here's something I wonder sometimes. How many people in life, and how many people on this board in particular, made any effort to "leave a legacy" when they were 19 years old? I know I didn't. I know none of my friends behaved in such a way. It's funny how easy it is to ask a stranger to hold himself to a standard we would never dream of applying to ourselves, and profess contempt for him when he doesn't meet it.

Really? Yikes. Legacy might be too big of a word for it for someone who doesn't have thousands of fans and millions of people watching them, but wanting to make a significant impact with your life and wanting to have your life be as positive of a representation of you as possible and if possible, doing something that makes a positive difference or can be passed on to others - absolutely. I suppose if you never think that way then understanding it would be a challenge.

FerryFor50
03-26-2014, 01:35 AM
Exactly the same. Always have. Maybe even more so with Irving.



I'm not saying he did use Duke. Obviously both sides have to agree to such things. But that's how it feels.



Really? Yikes. Legacy might be too big of a word for it for someone who doesn't have thousands of fans and millions of people watching them, but wanting to make a significant impact with your life and wanting to have your life be as positive of a representation of you as possible and if possible, doing something that makes a positive difference or can be passed on to others - absolutely. I suppose if you never think that way then understanding it would be a challenge.

I look at it like this - when one and done guys like Kyrie Irving, Jabari Parker, etc leave Duke and have nothing but awesome things to say about Duke and Coach K, it's good for Duke.

Those guys become NBA stars, the up and coming blue chip kids start wearing their shoes, copying their moves, and ultimately, choosing Duke.

UNC had a nice ripple effect in recruiting from having Michael Jordan. But as the memory of Jordan fades with kids, so does the UNC recruiting advantage. Think the University of San Francisco can pull the "well Bill Russell went here" card anymore?

Having one and done recruits sprinkled in is good for recruiting as a whole. Because not all the kids looking up to Kyrie and Jabari are one and done kids.

cwarner62
03-26-2014, 02:00 AM
I really think there's a decent chance Jabari comes back. Decent chance = anywhere from 30% to 70% as I have no idea what his priorities are. However I do think it would be the right decision for him. If he doesn't, I won't bash him and will still be glad he came to Duke (and hope he will continue to work toward his degree) but I think the pros very much outweigh the cons. I hope he seeks the advice of J-Will, Grant Hill, and others and makes the best decision for himself.

Pros (to returning to Duke):
-Chance to improve his game before heading to the NBA and get a bigger 2nd contract. Everyone always talks about draft stock and you should leave if you're a top 3, top 5, top whatever pick, but being 1 vs 8 doesn't matter all that much. The rookie pay-scale is fixed. Players make their money in their 2nd contracts. You want to be going into the NBA with the thought that you'll be good enough after your 3rd year to warrant a max contract. Joakim Noah and Al Horford made a lot of money by coming back for their Jr years at UF. Noah would have maybe been the #1 pick as a Soph but was not ready for the NBA. He ended up falling to #9, ending up with a better team, and was much more NBA-ready. He took a big jump his 3rd year, taking over as an everyday starter for the first time, and averaged a double-double. Horford developed the 15-foot jumper that he lives off of in the NBA during his Jr season and it was his 3rd year that he became an all-star. Both got *much* bigger second contracts than they would have had they left a year earlier. Will Jabari be an elite player after 3 seasons in the NBA? I don't know. He is definitely one of the most talented offensive players we've seen in years but also clearly has many areas of his game that need a lot of improvement - defense of course, shot selection, conditioning. I think its safe to say that if there's a good chance he'll be elite after his 3rd season if he jumps now, there's a better chance if he stays one more year. Whether that's 80% vs 60%, 90% vs 80%, I don't know.

-Chance to win a National Championship, play in the Final Four, and be national player of the year. I don't know if any of these are priorities of his. I don't know if he grew up following college basketball or just the NBA. But a lot of NBA players would have given up a year's salary to have a championship ring and a Naismith trophy.

-Chance to get a bigger endorsement deal. Top players can make just as much or even more money from endorsements than from their contract. Yes, Parker is widely known now but having lost in the first round of the tourney, a lot of the casual and non-NCAA fans who only watch the tourney never really got to see him play. If he comes back and becomes the face of college basketball (which he would, leading a highly ranked Duke team), he's on ESPN nonstop and a household name the likes of Johnny Manziel or Tim Tebow by the time he gets to the NBA.

-Chance to be a college kid for another year. I have no idea what his priorities are but this is appealing to a lot of people. Noah, Horford, and Brewer enjoyed college a lot and wanted another year of playing with their best friends, being the BMOC. The NBA is a grind. College is a lot more fun.

-His family doesn't need the money. His dad was a pro player so its not like they need the money right away to get his family out of poverty.

-Who wants to play for the 6ers?

Cons (reasons to go pro):
-Get the money now - certainly nothing wrong with that, but again his family doesn't need the money right away. I honestly don't see any way he drops out of the top 3 if he sticks around. It certainly didn't hurt Tim Duncan or J-Will. He's not going to be "exposed" because he is as good as advertised offensively and can only get better defensively. As for injuries, career-ending injuries in basketball are almost nonexistent. He should of course do his due diligence were he to return and take out an insurance policy but I think he's more likely to suffer a *career-ending* injury off-the court (like Bobby Hurley and J-Will) than on-the-court. Nerlens Noel had a very unusually bad injury and was still drafted #6.

-Wants to immediately realize dream to play in the NBA - if Jabari was never a huge college bball fan and really just dreamed of playing pro ball, by all means, he should follow his dreams and no one should begrudge him that.

eddiehaskell
03-26-2014, 02:04 AM
UNC had a nice ripple effect in recruiting from having Michael Jordan. But as the memory of Jordan fades with kids, so does the UNC recruiting advantage. Think the University of San Francisco can pull the "well Bill Russell went here" card anymore?I've always thought there could be something to this. The newest recruits were born in '96, '97 or '98...they have absolutely no memory of seeing Jordan play. I doubt any of them ever saw prime Vince Carter play either. Yes, we have Youtube now, but it doesn't compare to being a kid caught up in Vinsanity as it's happening. Do you think any of today's kids want to go to UNC so they can be like Marvin Williams, Sean May or Harrison Barnes?

Des Esseintes
03-26-2014, 02:40 AM
Really? Yikes. Legacy might be too big of a word for it for someone who doesn't have thousands of fans and millions of people watching them, but wanting to make a significant impact with your life and wanting to have your life be as positive of a representation of you as possible and if possible, doing something that makes a positive difference or can be passed on to others - absolutely. I suppose if you never think that way then understanding it would be a challenge.

Making a positive difference in the world can be accomplished in about a million different ways. Winning games for a D1 basketball team is not one of those million. Jabari can do just as meaningful of work at the NBA level next year as at Duke, with the added benefit that he will have significantly greater funds at his disposal to help charitable causes if he is so inclined.

But something tells me most Duke fans' reasons for wanting him to stay in college have little to do with increasing the happiness of the nations...