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View Full Version : NCAAT R64: Mercer 78, Duke 71



hurleyfor3
03-21-2014, 02:26 PM
Discuss the game here. We are all disappointed, but a lot of the season foreshadowed this kind of performance. Congratulations to Mercer; they were the better team today.

The no-venting rule (nonconstructive criticism of the players or coaches) still applies. Not every thought needs to be registered on the Internet for all posterity.

brlftz
03-21-2014, 03:08 PM
glad to see Quinn out there with Tyler. he was a warrior today, and I wonder if having him come out was recognition that he's going to be an important leader next year.

also interesting to hear coach k say that he doesn't yet know who is on the team next year. at the same time he seemed to say that he was sad that it ended this way for jabari and hood.

dukelifer
03-21-2014, 03:31 PM
glad to see Quinn out there with Tyler. he was a warrior today, and I wonder if having him come out was recognition that he's going to be an important leader next year.

also interesting to hear coach k say that he doesn't yet know who is on the team next year. at the same time he seemed to say that he was sad that it ended this way for jabari and hood.

Guards played great- something to build on for next year. It will be their team.

-bdbd
03-21-2014, 03:32 PM
Note to posters: Though tempting to vent and be negative, as we are all very disappointed, PLEASE try to be positive, if possible, here.

We had the same experience today as several other losses this season -- AZ, ND, Clemson, NC, Wake - played young/scared down the stretch and gave away a late lead. We were up by 5 with 4:30 to go, then... Give Mercer credit that their Senior-laden team played clearly more composed than Duke in the final 4 minutes.

It will be a long 6 months until next season!

Good effort guys!

OldPhiKap
03-21-2014, 03:33 PM
Congratulations to Mercer. They deserved the victory and they earned it.

Disappoining finish to the season, but it happens. Best of luck to those moving on, and time for those returning to reflect and grow.

It's been that kind of season.

gcashwell
03-21-2014, 03:34 PM
I thought our guys played hard all year. My disappointment lies in that we lost every game the same way. For some reason, we were unable to adjust or try new things.

Our effort was there, no shame in that.

luburch
03-21-2014, 03:35 PM
I've been looking for the post game press conferences and can't find them. Does anyone have a link?


Also, Coach K went to Mercer's locker room and congratulated them after the game. Even in defeat he exudes class. Glad he represents Duke University.

grossbus
03-21-2014, 03:37 PM
"We had the same experience today as several other losses this season -- AZ, ND, Clemson, NC, Wake - played young/scared down the stretch and gave away a late lead. We were up by 5 with 4:30 to go, then... Give Mercer credit that their Senior-laden team played clearly more composed than Duke in the final 4 minutes.

It will be a long 6 months until next season! "


says it all for me.

_Gary
03-21-2014, 03:38 PM
On my iPhone so this will be short. 3 thoughts:

Cohesion as a unit

Lack of ability to penetrate

Size

More later. For now I just want to thank our guys! Best to all, especially the seniors.

Atlanta Duke
03-21-2014, 03:38 PM
Every season is enjoyable but some are more enjoyable than others - I probably would feel worse if I would not have been given a reality check with the early Kansas and Arizona games as to the likely ceiling for this team

Will be interested to hear why K was doing switches and keeping Jabari on the bench when Mercer had the ball even after the 5 minute mark when he still had only 3 fouls

Next year Sully and Cook are the leaders assuming both return

brlftz
03-21-2014, 03:38 PM
I've been looking for the post game press conference and can't find them. Does anyone have a link?


Also, Coach K went to Mercer's locker room and congratulated them after the game. Even in defeat he exudes class. Glad he represents Duke University.

k basically cited the age difference, that inside we were up against men who were stronger. he also acknowledged that we weren't good enough to win when both jabari and hood didn't have good games. he summarized the season by saying that it was an unusual team, without size, and that while we were good enough to beat anyone, we weren't good enough that we couldn't be beaten by just about anyone either. followed that up by saying that mercer is not just "anyone", but is an experienced, championship team. very classy as always.

Udaman
03-21-2014, 03:42 PM
The most disappointing season (personally) since our slide in 194-95 when we lost all of those heartbreakingly close games and finished with a losing record. When we lost to Indiana in the Sweet 16, I was crushed, but, like this year, I could see it coming. There was just something missing. Not sure what it was....but just that certain intangible that was missing. At least with the Jason Williams loss we had just recently won a championship.

This one hurts because, really, you could see it coming. Even when we went up by 5, there was a collective sense of "yeah, but how have we done down the stretch in big games" kind of feeling.

Anyway, disappointed, and sad for my son (who this matters to much more than it does for me - he's 10 and loves Duke basketball). I certainly didn't think Duke would win the championship this year, but it would have been nice to at least make it to Louisville or Wichita State. And now these losses hurt more, because the team will be completely different next year. No Parker. No Hood. Three more one and dones taking their place.

Sigh.....

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-21-2014, 03:45 PM
Disappointing, not shocking. There was nothing that happened today that we haven't seen before. Seems like it was a particularly taxing season for K in many ways.

I hope he recharges fully in the offseason and returns ready to mold a championship team.

GGLC
03-21-2014, 03:46 PM
The most disappointing season (personally) since our slide in 194-95 when we lost all of those heartbreakingly close games and finished with a losing record. When we lost to Indiana in the Sweet 16, I was crushed, but, like this year, I could see it coming. There was just something missing. Not sure what it was....but just that certain intangible that was missing. At least with the Jason Williams loss we had just recently won a championship.

This one hurts because, really, you could see it coming. Even when we went up by 5, there was a collective sense of "yeah, but how have we done down the stretch in big games" kind of feeling.

Anyway, disappointed, and sad for my son (who this matters to much more than it does for me - he's 10 and loves Duke basketball). I certainly didn't think Duke would win the championship this year, but it would have been nice to at least make it to Louisville or Wichita State. And now these losses hurt more, because the team will be completely different next year. No Parker. No Hood. Three more one and dones taking their place.

Sigh.....

If it makes you feel better, I'd be very surprised if either Tyus or Justise is a one and done.

alteran
03-21-2014, 03:47 PM
On paper this season wasn't so bad, but the reality was just so much short of the potential. Painful day.

Great games from two guys we'll have back next year. And who knows, maybe Rodney will want to stick around as well.

Thanks to the team and especially the seniors. Stay angry, fellas, and use it next year.

hurleyfor3
03-21-2014, 03:48 PM
Statistically, it's hard to distinguish this season from 2008 or 2012. With similar results in the NCAAT. Switch the outcome of the unc games; that's about it.

gurufrisbee
03-21-2014, 03:49 PM
This game will bring up all the same questions that have been brought up many times during the season. Why was Thorton given more time than Cook? Why did Plumlee not play more when we clearly need more size inside? Why do we shoot so many three's (which I think is funny since that was the only thing working for us today)? Where is the defensive communication? Can this team succeed with this much youth?

They are valid questions. Absolutely.

I, for one, am glad to have Duke get eliminated by a team that flat out played better. It has not happened since Clemson that Duke lost a game that they would not have won if the officiating weren't so horribly lopsided against them.

I do wish the committee would do a better job seeding. Lehigh was no 15 seed. Mercer was no 14 seed. If Duke earned a 3, I wish we were really playing one of the 12 worst teams in the field....like American or Nebraska or BYU. Or North Carolina. ;)

It was a nice season. We won a lot. Had some good moments. Saw some good promise. I hope we see Okafor next year as a great starting center - and Tyus as a great 6th man (can't start ahead of Jabari, Rodney, Cook, and Sheed).

Mike Corey
03-21-2014, 03:49 PM
I love Duke basketball.

Thanks to all the coaches and players and managers and academic assistants and staff, and all their families. You entertain and inspire all year round, and in wins and losses, you represent our tie that binds better than I could ever hope. Thanks, too, to DBR for giving us a place to chat about it all year round, as well.

Thoughts and prayers continue to be with Coach K and his family regarding the loss of his dear brother.

May this team's players--and returning ones--come back with a vengeance in a few months too far from now.

Best to all of you in the DBR community. I'm grateful to be part of this family.

brlftz
03-21-2014, 03:50 PM
Anyway, disappointed, and sad for my son (who this matters to much more than it does for me - he's 10 and loves Duke basketball). Sigh.....

my nearly 10 yo son was devastated when they had the missed dunk that went in, with the and one. i sadly yelled 'ballgame' and he stomped off. didn't come back out til well after the game was officially over.

NashvilleDevil
03-21-2014, 03:50 PM
I think we are all treading lightly on what was really to blame for the poor play since the Carolina game. Obviously it was having Tony Romo and Jason Garrett around the team. No other explanation. (I am joking Cowboy fans)

I look forward to seeing Tyler as an assistant soon, good luck to Josh, Andre and Todd in your endeavors. Rodney and Jabari when you guys had it going it was a thing of beauty. Good luck to both of you in the league where we all know you will represent Duke very well.

DRC
03-21-2014, 03:50 PM
Considering the very positive start of the season, I can't help but think the loss of K's brother had a profound emotional effect on the team as well as K for the remainder. I've been watching K for 20+ years, and upon his return from losing his brother, I could easily tell he was a different person/coach. He just wasn't 'there'. I'm sure K's grief carried over to the team and although they tried to 'win it for K', emotional stress can take a serious toll. Look at Andre when he lost his sister. He retreated for a long time and is still not 100% compared to the overall player he was prior to his sister's death. Just trying to consider the possible emotional side.

Next year we'll have some great recruits and hopefully a renewed spirit and fire across the board.

CDu
03-21-2014, 03:51 PM
Well, two things did us in today:

1. Defense (shocking)
2. Our stars just didn't have it tonight

We allowed well over a point per possession to a team outside the top-100 in offensive efficiency. That's just not good. We made a guy who averaged under 10 ppg look like Hakeem Olajuwon in the paint. And we again struggled to stop dribble penetration. Same themes we've seen pop up throughout the year, only they happened at a really bad time this time.

I feel for Hood and Parker. They went 6-24 from the field and committed 7 turnovers. That we had a chance to win in spite of their struggles is impressive. But we've come to expect so much from that duo that when they both have an off-night it can be backbreaking. They both had terrific seasons; it just stinks that they both ended their seasons (and possibly their college careers) with such a clunker.

I must give Mercer credit for playing with poise and purpose, where we did not. I think the outcome is a result of Duke not playing cohesively or confidently, but Mercer executed well to take advantage of our miscues. The more organized, more disciplined, and more patient team won out over the more talented team.

Amazing games from Cook and Sulaimon offensively. They absolutely carried the scoring load. They were of course buoyed by the excellent work on the offensive glass by Jefferson and Parker (10 combined offensive rebounds between them). But it just wasn't enough to overcome the off-nights by our two high-volume stars (not to mention the off-night for Dawkins, who went 0-5).

As a side note, it is absolutely crazy that we shot 40% from 3pt range on over 35 attempts, and had 16 offensive rebounds, yet managed to lose. That speaks to (a) how bad our defense was and (b) how bad we were at shooting 2pt shoots (7-25).

gcashwell
03-21-2014, 03:52 PM
I do wish the committee would do a better job seeding. Lehigh was no 15 seed. Mercer was no 14 seed. If Duke earned a 3, I wish we were really playing one of the 12 worst teams in the field....like American or Nebraska or BYU. Or North Carolina. ;)



I think the seeding was fine. They were a tough matchup for us, but there are no easy games in the tournament anymore. None.

Atlanta Duke
03-21-2014, 03:52 PM
I hope he recharges fully in the offseason and returns ready to mold a championship team.

Of course Coach K is off to to coach the USA National team in Spain later this summer - hopefully the international game recharges his batteries

kAzE
03-21-2014, 03:53 PM
If it makes you feel better, I'd be very surprised if either Tyus or Justise is a one and done.

I wouldn't be . . . I think some people on this board are seriously underestimating both of those guys . . . Jones is a flat-out star. He's one of the best point guard prospects that we've had come through this program, and Winslow is a beast on both ends of the court. They are both projected as lottery picks in the 2015 draft. And if you don't believe me see for yourself:
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2015/

OldSchool
03-21-2014, 03:55 PM
Obviously, a disappointing end to the season. Certainly no fault to be found in the effort of our team. In both the ACCT and the NCAAT it's one-loss-and-you're-out. Win a squeaker and who knows how far you'll go. Some post-mortem thoughts about our style of play this year:

Overplay perimeter defense - this puts a lot of pressure on our inside guys to properly read the action and quickly react. With young or inexperienced inside guys, this was too much to ask for this team. Also, the changed emphasis by officials on perimeter fouls disadvantages this style of play. An option to go to a sagging defense, or at least using a sagging defense against certain teams or in certain situations, may have been a more effective style for this team, at least late in the season when it was clear what the team was capable of defensively. Perhaps a stats head can figure out to what extent turnovers generated by our overplay were more than offset by inside bunnies and the fouls called on our perimeter defenders by the new officiating, as well as fouls on our bigs from late rotations. Next year, with more experienced bigs Amile and Marshall and talented Jahlil coming in, will our bigs be able to handle the defensive scheme? I would think our interior defensive play will improve significantly next year.

Offensively, poor shot selection and perfunctory screening and passing at times hurt this team. Often when criticism was offered of our offense, posters would point to our stellar offensive ranking. But the point is not how the team compared to others offensively, but to what extent the team maximized its offensive potential. My own opinion is that we had amazing offensive weapons, and could have been off the charts in terms of offensive efficiency. We had iso plays for JP and Rodney and ball movement and dribble penetration designed to either take the defender or open up our three-point shooters, but in terms of basic bread-and-butter pick-and-roll with all of the associated options and screening, cutting and passing we were nothing to write home about, so our offense became stagnant for stretches of games when the match-ups weren't working for JP and Rodney and we faced solid defense on dribble penetration, because we did not have other fundamentals to fall back on.

Still, there were lots of highlights in this season. When this team was rolling offensively, it was an impressive thing to behold. And win or lose, it's a great bunch of guys to cheer for. Thanks team for an exciting year!

GGLC
03-21-2014, 03:55 PM
I wouldn't be . . . I think some people on this board are seriously underestimating both of those guys . . . Jones is a flat-out star. He's one of the best point guard prospects that we've had come through this program, and Winslow is a beast on both ends of the court. They are both projected as lottery picks in the 2015 draft. And if you don't believe me see for yourself:
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2015/

Well, then, I hope they don't go. I became a huge Justise fan when I watched his announcement; I'd like to see him stick around a while so we can get to know him.

DUKIE V(A)
03-21-2014, 03:59 PM
Really disappointing loss. Mercer was solid all game and stuck to their game plan throughout. We relied a bit too much on individual talent. I suspect Hood is gone but it will be interesting to hear what Jabari decides. Both are extremely talented but can get tons better. Would love to see them another year in Duke blue.

wsb3
03-21-2014, 04:03 PM
I am not shocked at the loss. I knew nothing about Mercer but when I saw all the seniors my concerns went up. This is not the monumental upset it will get made out to be, regardless of seeding.

My biggest concern all year is that win or lose we do not play well the last 5 minutes of the game. That is why I could not see us making a deep run. I would love to have been wrong and had the pattern reverse itself.

Very happy the way QC played today.

One possession I would love for Coach K to have a do over on was when we were up 3 got a stop, and were so out of sync that it was obvious at least to me we needed a timeout. It was a chance to get Parker back in the game & go up two possessions with maybe 3+ minutes left. We took a desperation 3 at the end of the clock. I don't get that one. That was too big a possession to give away.

I love Duke, hope this is not too bad for the mods.

Time to get outside and enjoy the sunshine. Beach season is coming.

summerwind03
03-21-2014, 04:04 PM
I love Duke basketball.

Thanks to all the coaches and players and managers and academic assistants and staff, and all their families. You entertain and inspire all year round, and in wins and losses, you represent our tie that binds better than I could ever hope. Thanks, too, to DBR for giving us a place to chat about it all year round, as well.

Thoughts and prayers continue to be with Coach K and his family regarding the loss of his dear brother.

May this team's players--and returning ones--come back with a vengeance in a few months too far from now.

Best to all of you in the DBR community. I'm grateful to be part of this family.

Thanks for keeping it so positive, Mike.

It's hard for us as fans, but harder for the players.

JamminJoe
03-21-2014, 04:05 PM
It was a fun season overall following a huge talent like Jabari. But very disappointing that this team could never get the defensive stops when it needed them. This team had the talent, and K has gone far in the tournament before without having the size up front. But just never came together on the defensive end. I wonder how much losing Chris Collins meant to the team.

dukebluesincebirth
03-21-2014, 04:08 PM
Extremely disappointed in this team, coaching staff included. We lost our last game the same way we lost every other game. No growth throughout the season and not sure why. I saw lots of talent on this team and we end up not winning the acc reg season, nor the acc tourney. Then we go out in the first round? Wow. Huge underachievement in my opinion. I don't know if hood and Parker weren't coachable defensively or if out coaches did a poor job teaching them. Whichever, they never got it. Doesn't matter now. What happened to Andre Dawkins?? He just vanished into the air somehow. The seniors didn't lead at all. Man, how different than last year's seniors! One of the most frustrating duke teams I've ever watched. I never saw the passion and intensity I expect from a coach K team. Too late now.

DukeAlumBS
03-21-2014, 04:09 PM
On my iPhone so this will be short. 3 thoughts:

Cohesion as a unit

Lack of ability to penetrate

Size

More later. For now I just want to thank our guys! Best to all, especially the seniors.

I hate these early losses. Makes the tourney not fun. Next season I look forward to. We as a team were not a unit. A young team. Cook will be a plus and the rest coming in. Mercer beat us. We beat us as well. We need leadership and communication. I think Cook will be a plus next year. I pray Parker comes back one more year, and get his game together. We may be very good. Heck we were in the ACC tourney and lost the title. Again, a loss, disappointing. But Mercer did it right. Solid 4 year students. A team!
Time to go to a bar now!

Nice day
Jimmy

Furniture
03-21-2014, 04:14 PM
Feel for the kids. Seeing Cook (who was fantastic today) with those sorry red eyes is heart breaking.

Looking back to the start of the year when the first few games we shot crazily and were putting up scores in the 90's we were amazing and my heart was filled with optimism! Then everybody said our D wasn't good enough.

Its seems like to me that we were never going to be a great defensive team but by trying to improve D we lost our way with O.
If you don't score, you don't win.

One thing that was different to other years was that our most experience guys on the team were not as high calibre. I think that doesn't help the younger guys. Looking forward to the next couple of years that should rectify itself with Cook, Amile, Marshall (if he plays) and Sheed having much more experience.

I am going to miss the guys that leave but look forward to following the "Dukies in the NBA" thread

See you next year.

DukieInKansas
03-21-2014, 04:15 PM
I will disagree with the poster above. I didn't like the outcome of the game. However, I am disappointed for the team. I'm never disappointed in them. I'm sure they feel much worse about this loss than any of the fans. (If not, one or the other set should re-evaluate.)

Thank you, team and staff, for representing the University so well.

rtnorthrup
03-21-2014, 04:15 PM
Basketball is a painfully funny game at times. I have been trying to make sense of this game for a couple of hours now. I am surprised but not stunned. We all knew going into that tournament that this was a flawed team in many ways. One of the worst KenPom defensive efficiency ratings for a Duke team in a long time. A sense that the whole was not as good as the individual parts. Whatever "IT" was, this team couldn't find it. And yet, watching the game, looking at the box score, trying to find some order in the chaos, leaves me chasing ghosts.

On the one hand, watching the game, it felt like we took way too many threes. Too many one pass offensive possessions leading to a contested three pointer, and yet, the box score tells me we shot 40.5% from three point range. That's a pretty dominant number. We outrebounded Mercer 35-27, had 16 offensive boards to Mercer's 3, and yet. . . wasn't rebounding supposed to be one of our weaknesses?

There will be hard questions asked? Why was Coach K going offense/defense with Jabari Parker for the final seven minutes of the game when he only had 3 fouls? Why didn't Plumlee get more minutes in the second half? Why did we continue to double high ball screens with Amile when that clearly was not working. We only forced 8 TOs all game.

A lot will be talked about maturity. Mercer had seniors, we had underclassmen. But many of our underclassmen had been to the Elite Eight last year. None of these Mercer kids had ever been in an NCAA tournament. I'm not sure how much that bears into it.

Ultimately though it comes down to this, two NBA lottery picks had poor games at the same time. 6-24 between them. Personally (selfishly) I hope both of them return next year, though I think that a long shot. From a basketball perspective neither are ready for the NBA. Both players are well below average defensively, both on-ball and in help. Both have tremendous versatility in their offensive weaponry, but sometimes they have too much versatility. Too many options at times seems to paralyze players. For Parker, he was clearly played out of position for most of the season. Long term though I think that will help him. Hood is a swiss army knife, but I don't think he really knows what his game is. They would both benefit from another year of coaching.

DukeDevil
03-21-2014, 04:16 PM
I'll admit...I came into DBR after the game expecting this...

http://media.giphy.com/media/X7JaNLilGLTQ4/giphy.gif

People are obviously upset, but everyone is keeping it pretty calm. Kudos to you all. Perhaps the chat group let us get all our immediate venting out fast (boy did we ever)...or maybe the cooling off period helped. Disappointing season...and it makes me wish for the days when people at least stayed around for a few years. I wonder if we'd do better recruiting stars that were not quite top tier, expected to stay and develop. That being said...how do you say no to a Jabari Parker? Even if this is his only year as I expect, it's been a pleasure to watch him.

Furniture
03-21-2014, 04:20 PM
I will disagree with the poster above. I didn't like the outcome of the game. However, I am disappointed for the team. I'm never disappointed in them. I'm sure they feel much worse about this loss than any of the fans. (If not, one or the other set should re-evaluate.)

Thank you, team and staff, for representing the University so well.

The poster above was me and I didn't say that!!!!

quahog174
03-21-2014, 04:23 PM
Time to switch to ABC mode.

nmduke2001
03-21-2014, 04:23 PM
Unfortunately, this team never developed a killer instinct. They let lesser teams hang around all season. Maybe we can bring Laettner back to coach swagger.

NashvilleDevil
03-21-2014, 04:24 PM
The poster above was me and I didn't say that!!!!

I think they were referring to dukebluesincebirth's post.

Matches
03-21-2014, 04:26 PM
And so ends our extended lesson on the difference between having good players and having a good team.

I cannot sugarcoat it. This is the sort of loss that should not happen, particularly given that it already happened two years ago. Sad end to a frustrating season.

NashvilleDevil
03-21-2014, 04:26 PM
Unfortunately, this team never developed a killer instinct. They let lesser teams hang around all season. Maybe we can bring Laettner back to coach swagger.

Speaking of Laettner go to his twitter feed.

bronston22
03-21-2014, 04:28 PM
This is one of the toughest mainly because of the lost promise of Jabari. He had a great year but we must be honest that when he announced for us last year the expectation was that we would scratch in the tourney. Oh well, sports.

dukelifer
03-21-2014, 04:30 PM
I'll admit...I came into DBR after the game expecting this...

http://media.giphy.com/media/X7JaNLilGLTQ4/giphy.gif

People are obviously upset, but everyone is keeping it pretty calm. Kudos to you all. Perhaps the chat group let us get all our immediate venting out fast (boy did we ever)...or maybe the cooling off period helped. Disappointing season...and it makes me wish for the days when people at least stayed around for a few years. I wonder if we'd do better recruiting stars that were not quite top tier, expected to stay and develop. That being said...how do you say no to a Jabari Parker? Even if this is his only year as I expect, it's been a pleasure to watch him.

I think we are calm because the loss seemed a bit familiar. Duke had a late lead and let it slip away because of not being able to make stops and missing a few shots. Basketball is about performing in critical moments. Mercer did not own Duke today- Duke just did not execute in the big moments and Mercer never lost their cool. It happens. Sad to see it end this way - but I was not surprised by the way Duke lost it.

nmduke2001
03-21-2014, 04:31 PM
Speaking of Laettner go to his twitter feed.

That's funny. For those of you without twitter:
Christian Laettner (@laettnerbball)
3/21/14, 1:47 PM
. Oh well....live and learn! But I will say this....this type of crap didn't happen from '89-'92!! #dukedynasty89-92

eddiehaskell
03-21-2014, 04:31 PM
I think it was the lack of size or length or athleticism on the inside that did us in. If we had someone like Miles, Mason or even Zoubek (tourney run) to go along with Hood and Parker, this season would have likely turned out completely different.

The "bigs" for Mercer were feasting on us offensively. We needed someone inside that could have a presence and not allow such easy buckets. Jabari isn't a big man and playing him down low results in picking up cheap fouls which limit him on offense.

I also agree with Coach K saying we could beat anyone, but also lose to anyone.

alteran
03-21-2014, 04:32 PM
Time to switch to ABC mode.

Uhm... switch?

My ABC mode needs no switch, it has only one mode: on.

flyingdutchdevil
03-21-2014, 04:33 PM
And so ends our extended lesson on the difference between having good players and having a good team.

I cannot sugarcoat it. This is the sort of loss that should not happen, particularly given that it already happened two years ago. Sad end to a frustrating season.

I'm 100% with you. On every statement. This team will make 23x the money in the NBA that the 2010 will/has made. But it's not even close to the togetherness of that team.

Insanely frustrating, as we have such a talented team. What makes it even worse is how I'm not that surprised but rather so frustrated.

dukebluesincebirth
03-21-2014, 04:33 PM
Speaking of Laettner go to his twitter feed.

Thanks for that... And he is absolutely right! I actually thought about he and Hurley quite a bit during today's game. Times have changed.

TNTDevil
03-21-2014, 04:35 PM
my nearly 10 yo son was devastated when they had the missed dunk that went in, with the and one. i sadly yelled 'ballgame' and he stomped off. didn't come back out til well after the game was officially over.
My 14 y.o. daughter, who was unable to watch because of school, is especially devastated and his holed-up in her room. I'm making her favorite dinner to help ease the pain...

On to Football season!

GGLC
03-21-2014, 04:35 PM
Insanely frustrating, as we have such a talented team. What makes it even worse is how I'm not that surprised but rather so frustrated.

Is anyone on this board genuinely surprised at either the outcome of this game or how it transpired?

Billy Dat
03-21-2014, 04:36 PM
On the one hand, watching the game, it felt like we took way too many threes. Too many one pass offensive possessions leading to a contested three pointer, and yet, the box score tells me we shot 40.5% from three point range. That's a pretty dominant number. We outrebounded Mercer 35-27, had 16 offensive boards to Mercer's 3, and yet. . . wasn't rebounding supposed to be one of our weaknesses?

There will be hard questions asked? Why was Coach K going offense/defense with Jabari Parker for the final seven minutes of the game when he only had 3 fouls? Why didn't Plumlee get more minutes in the second half? Why did we continue to double high ball screens with Amile when that clearly was not working. We only forced 8 TOs all game.

A lot will be talked about maturity. Mercer had seniors, we had underclassmen. But many of our underclassmen had been to the Elite Eight last year. None of these Mercer kids had ever been in an NCAA tournament. I'm not sure how much that bears into it.

Ultimately though it comes down to this, two NBA lottery picks had poor games at the same time. 6-24 between them. Personally (selfishly) I hope both of them return next year, though I think that a long shot. From a basketball perspective neither are ready for the NBA. Both players are well below average defensively, both on-ball and in help. Both have tremendous versatility in their offensive weaponry, but sometimes they have too much versatility. Too many options at times seems to paralyze players. For Parker, he was clearly played out of position for most of the season. Long term though I think that will help him. Hood is a swiss army knife, but I don't think he really knows what his game is. They would both benefit from another year of coaching.

RE: 3s and Rebounding
I thought we were smart to take a lot of 3s today because that's what they were giving us, and pretty wide open 3s, too. They tightened that up when they needed to and we didn't get any good looks in the last few minutes. The fact is we weren't a "live by the 3 die by the 3" team this year. We scored a ton from the paint thanks to Jabari. Our rebounding, especially offensive rebounding, was good all year.

RE: Jabari offense for defense
Jabari's defense has been bad all year, but it was pretty atrocious today. In the first half, I pretty much watched him the entire time waiting to see what he would do that would lead to the defensive breakdown, and he was usually in the middle of it - giving his man too much room, bad/wrong/slow rotations, he was clueless. I don't think its for lack of want to, I just don't think he is an instinctive defensive player - at all. I think K was trying to get stops and knew he had a much better chance to do it with Jabari on the bench - and I think he was correct.

This team did not come close to reaching its potential, and I agree that trying to figure out why is like chasing ghosts. We had good kids who seemed to like each other and always played hard. The chemistry seemed great. But, the defense has been on a years long slide - who knows why - it can't be because of youth or inexperience - we were veteran last year -although there were the Kelly/Curry injuries. But, Kentucky and Kansas play a ton of freshmen and sophomores and their D is much more highly rated. On offense, we relied on blinding talent but were not a well oiled machine getting the right guys the right shots at the right time in the right spots.

I'll miss Andre, Tyler, Josh and Todd and Rodney and probably Jabari. Bringing back Quinn, Rasheed, Amile and Marshall is a nice nucleus to go along with the freshmen and Semi. With that core, will we still be saying that we were young at this time next year? Is it possible for a team like Duke to be "veteran" anymore?

While I love Team USA, its too bad K has to do it this summer. His brother's death, rightfully so, has him seaming edgy and burned out. There will be no downtime, there's more pressure to win on that stage than even at Duke.

Bottom line - we never became the fist - not even close. It wasn't because we didn't try, and that's all we can ask for.

Devilwin
03-21-2014, 04:39 PM
If it makes you feel better, I'd be very surprised if either Tyus or Justise is a one and done.

I believe that Parker may come back. Heard he said this loss will affect his decision, because he feels "incomplete" without a title. Hope so.
Feel sick now, just plain old sick..

WillJ
03-21-2014, 04:39 PM
Is anyone on this board genuinely surprised at either the outcome of this game or how it transpired?

Not too surprised. We played very well some of the time and not so well at other times. Que sera.

Atlanta Duke
03-21-2014, 04:39 PM
Is anyone on this board genuinely surprised at either the outcome of this game or how it transpired?

Surprised Duke lost to Mercer but not how the loss to end the season transpired

CALVET
03-21-2014, 04:40 PM
I think it was the lack of size or length or athleticism on the inside that did us in. If we had someone like Miles, Mason or even Zoubek (tourney run) to go along with Hood and Parker, this season would have likely turned out completely different.

The "bigs" for Mercer were feasting on us offensively. We needed someone inside that could have a presence and not allow such easy buckets. Jabari isn't a big man and playing him down low results in picking up cheap fouls which limit him on offense.

I also agree with Coach K saying we could beat anyone, but also lose to anyone.


It was a failed experiment to give too much responsibility, inside the paint or otherwise, to two (albeit talented) small forwards. But having said that, I trust that for reasons that the rest of us may not be privy to, K decided it was his best option and he still has the best resume of anyone out there.

bronston22
03-21-2014, 04:43 PM
Is anyone on this board genuinely surprised at either the outcome of this game or how it transpired?

Of course I am surprised. I knew it was within the realm of possibility but with a lead with 5 to go I did not expect to get torched down the stretch. The day we are not surprised by a loss to Mercer in the first round is the day when we are nothing special.

jipops
03-21-2014, 04:44 PM
I wouldn't be . . . I think some people on this board are seriously underestimating both of those guys . . . Jones is a flat-out star. He's one of the best point guard prospects that we've had come through this program, and Winslow is a beast on both ends of the court. They are both projected as lottery picks in the 2015 draft. And if you don't believe me see for yourself:
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2015/

Well, I've long been done with having any sort of high expectations based on information such as this. It's seems more of a rarity that even one of a group of players ends up being as good as advertised. And as we have most recently seen, that does not always equate into an impressive team. Sure we should be pretty good next season. But I'm not just going to assume we're going to be among the elites or anything like that. We'll see how good we are when we actually see the group play some meaningful games.

bronston22
03-21-2014, 04:47 PM
The one thing all these early losses does is dispel the myth that we played no one in our last title run. Every game in this tourney is losable and you don't have to beat Kentucky and Michigan State for a title to be earned. Somebody had to beat the big boys that year too.

#1Duke
03-21-2014, 04:47 PM
And so ends our extended lesson on the difference between having good players and having a good team.

I cannot sugarcoat it. This is the sort of loss that should not happen, particularly given that it already happened two years ago. Sad end to a frustrating season.


I'm 100% with you. On every statement. This team will make 23x the money in the NBA that the 2010 will/has made. But it's not even close to the togetherness of that team.

Insanely frustrating, as we have such a talented team. What makes it even worse is how I'm not that surprised but rather so frustrated.

This is what happens when you have a team that has 3 "stars" on board. It happens all the time. I can list several examples of such teams…… especially in the NBA.

I think our guys tried VERY hard to play together and share the ball and the scoring but I believe it is/was always in the back of their minds and interfered with smooth balanced play.

For example, I always CRINGED when Jabari would grab and pull players into a huddle after a foul call….. I just cringed. He is a FRESHMAN. A great freshmen to be sure but I never thought it appropriate for him to do so.

I honestly believe that there was friction on this team but again, I think the guys handled it as best they could….. Rasheed's "problem" earlier this year not withstanding.

Instead of skirting the issue and letting it work itself out, I think Coach K should have "appointed" someone to step into the leadership role.

In a nutshell, I guess what I am saying is the constant effort to share the ball, minutes, accolades, etc. interfered with smooth play…… also, having so many offensive minded players took away from our defense.

jipops
03-21-2014, 04:47 PM
Is anyone on this board genuinely surprised at either the outcome of this game or how it transpired?

Not remotely. Sure I've tended to be a pessimist, but it was hard to see this group even getting out of the round of 32 with a kenpom rating of 100+ on defense. A defense whose previous 5 opponents which were normally inefficient on offense have shot 50% or greater (ok NC State was 49% but still...). The warning signs were all there.

dukebluesincebirth
03-21-2014, 04:47 PM
Anyone have a link to post game presser?

bbosbbos
03-21-2014, 04:52 PM
I did not expect this and got mad during the game. Had to turned off the TV at the 39:00 mark and left my computer. I do not know the final score until coming into this board. While I am typing and I decide to skip all the remaining games, which are not important any more. I wish Parker and Hood best of luck in NBA if they are leaving. This season is over. I will do more sports and gardening in the weekends. Next season? I do not want to think about it yet. At this moment please do not talk about this game, please. It hurts so much.

JamminJoe
03-21-2014, 04:54 PM
Anyone have a link to post game presser?

Go to goDuke.com

mr. synellinden
03-21-2014, 04:57 PM
I'm glad to see that there is a fairly good sense of perspective and lack of venting on this thread. The loss is extremely disappointing, particularly because it was again a late second half meltdown (20-8 in the last 4:30) and because it's another season of underperforming versus expectations.

I don't think it's venting to point out some very disturbing facts that can't be avoided or dismissed. During the last 8 years, Duke has been [insert appropriate adjective here - I'll go with "very bad"] in the second half of tournament games. Putting aside 2010, going back to 2007 (VCU) we have been collectively outscored 332-247 in the second half of 7 tournament losses. That's an average of 47.4 - 34.4. So we've been outscored on average by 13 points in the second half alone, and in only one of those games (Louisville 2013) were we the lower seeded team. Those numbers are startling. Also, collectively in those losses, we've shot a combined 28% from 3 point range for the game (with games in which we've shot 27 (Villanova), 26 (Lehigh), 22 (WVU) and 37! (Mercer) 3 pointers). Just to add some facts to the trend, in 2006, in our loss to LSU, we shot 5-26 from 3 pt range. And in our almost loss to Belmont in 2008 we shot 6-21 and lost the second half by 6.

I believe this is a problem with Duke's style of play and/or coaching. When you get to the NCAA tournament, most games are decided by the ability to get "easy" points down the stretch - that includes layups, putbacks and FTs. Shooting three pointers almost never results in one of those. Even the greater chance of an offensive rebound doesn't help there because those are usually long rebounds. The key sequence in the game today is very instructive. After we went up by 5 (63-58) Duke was in the bonus at this point - and Mercer was not. Mercer scored on a long jumper that bounced high off the rim and in - that was bad luck. But we had the ball and a 3 point lead (and were in the bonus) - and our next 6 possessions included a Hood turnover, a Hood missed 3 pointer, a Sulaimon air ball 3 pointer as the shot clock wound down, a Parker missed 3 pointer, a Hood travel, and a Dawkins missed 3 pointer. So we had two turnovers and 4 3 point shots. At the same time, Mercer took 1 3 pointer (which they hit) and made a layup on a great pass by Hall (with an and 1), and made 4 FTs. They got 7 points on layups and FTs and we couldn't even take a shot within the 3 point circle. You could even go a little further back to about the 8 minute mark when we first were in the bonus and look at some of those possessions - Hood drove the lane and had a pathway to the basket (with Duke in the bonus) but pulled up for a 10 footer that missed. Then Sulaimon missed a 3 pointer. Then Hood missed a 3 pointer, and then Quinn hit one. During that stretch, Mercer got a layup (and 1), a putback, and another layup. That was a mini 7-3 sequence, after which Parker drove to the basket, missed got his own rebound and put it back with an and 1 to put us back up by 2. After that, our next 2 point shot came on Rasheed's drive with :46 seconds left. So we went almost 5 minutes without attempting a drive to the basket or any shot that was likely to draw a foul or even any shot inside the 3 point line.

That is why Duke lost this game, and I really believe it is why we have lost many games in the tournament with second half collapses. Tournament games are mentally and physically draining. In close games late, teams play more deliberate and it becomes more of a half court contest. Teams are more prone to fouling inside because they are tired and don't want to give up easy baskets. It is much easier score inside and from the line when you are fatigued than it is to hit 21 foot jumpers. (Louisville seems to be the exception to this - and if you want to know why, go read The Last Great Game by Gene Wojciechowski and how Pitino conditions his teams). One of the reasons I think Michigan St. has had success in the NCAA tournament is because their teams have been consistently good at offensive rebounds/putbacks. I also think experience is a huge factor, but it shouldn't be enough to outweigh some of the talent disparities in the games Duke has lost.

One of the issues for Duke recently may be that for many years we have not had a point guard with above average ability to break down a defense by getting into the paint and either draw fouls or get the ball to teammates in position where they can draw fouls. But I just don't think we're coached well enough to play as a team the style that leads to success in most tournament games.

FerryFor50
03-21-2014, 04:58 PM
Is anyone on this board genuinely surprised at either the outcome of this game or how it transpired?

Genuinely surprised by who beat Duke, but not how Duke lost.

Mercer is really not that good of a team. They played great today, of course. But that team was the type of team Duke could run out of the building. However, I strongly suspect the Mercer coaching staff showed their team the Vermont tape over and over, because that's how Mercer played us. Mercer averaged over 20 3pt attempts per game this season. Today, they took just 13. It wasn't because Duke ran them off the 3s... it was because Mercer back-doored and drove on Duke. Just like Vermont.

When Duke was up 63-60 after some huge shots by Cook and Sulaimon, I thought they needed to start pounding it in to Jabari and try to draw fouls. But instead, they kept jacking up threes. Mercer may have been giving Duke the three, but Duke should have been TAKING the twos from Mercer. Played right into their hands. Mercer used their experience to finish them off.

Hood had a terrible game. Parker reverted to bad Jabari - settling for long, contested jumpers. K remained stubborn, refusing to play more than 6 guys meaningful minutes. We reap what we sow, I guess.

My only officiating gripe was that 6 or 7 traveling violations were called. Several of those did not appear to be travels. Anyone else feel that way?

Didn't cost Duke the game - defense did - but sure didn't make my stress level any lower.

Also, anyone who watched the game... you could hear the Duke hate from the crowd. So much for having a regional advantage...

rtnorthrup
03-21-2014, 05:00 PM
RE: 3s and Rebounding
I thought we were smart to take a lot of 3s today because that's what they were giving us, and pretty wide open 3s, too. They tightened that up when they needed to and we didn't get any good looks in the last few minutes. The fact is we weren't a "live by the 3 die by the 3" team this year. We scored a ton from the paint thanks to Jabari. Our rebounding, especially offensive rebounding, was good all year.

It's hard to lump all three point shots into one category. We certainly were effective utilizing the three point shot today. As you also say we missed some good open looks in the flow of our offense. That said, we were the first team in the bonus in the second half and never really took advantage of that. We were never really able to establish Parker in positions where he was comfortable. For the most part he was pushed out to the perimeter and forced to take some threes or to get his own offense. Parker and Hood took some threes that were clearly forced in an attempt to get themselves going.


RE: Jabari offense for defense
Jabari's defense has been bad all year, but it was pretty atrocious today. In the first half, I pretty much watched him the entire time waiting to see what he would do that would lead to the defensive breakdown, and he was usually in the middle of it - giving his man too much room, bad/wrong/slow rotations, he was clueless. I don't think its for lack of want to, I just don't think he is an instinctive defensive player - at all. I think K was trying to get stops and knew he had a much better chance to do it with Jabari on the bench - and I think he was correct.

Jabari's defense was atrocious today, but who in the game was doing a better job? The last 5 minutes Mercer got everything they wanted, even with Parker on the bench. Hood and Jefferson were equally as atrocious on the defensive end today. I am very surprised that Coach K would take out the number one pick in next year's NBA draft down the stretch, even as poorly as he was playing. There were several offensive possessions that we were stuck with Parker on the bench. Not sure I agree with you on the correctness of this call.


This team did not come close to reaching its potential, and I agree that trying to figure out why is like chasing ghosts. We had good kids who seemed to like each other and always played hard. The chemistry seemed great. But, the defense has been on a years long slide - who knows why - it can't be because of youth or inexperience - we were veteran last year -although there were the Kelly/Curry injuries. But, Kentucky and Kansas play a ton of freshmen and sophomores and their D is much more highly rated. On offense, we relied on blinding talent but were not a well oiled machine getting the right guys the right shots at the right time in the right spots.

I'll miss Andre, Tyler, Josh and Todd and Rodney and probably Jabari. Bringing back Quinn, Rasheed, Amile and Marshall is a nice nucleus to go along with the freshmen and Semi. With that core, will we still be saying that we were young at this time next year? Is it possible for a team like Duke to be "veteran" anymore?

While I love Team USA, its too bad K has to do it this summer. His brother's death, rightfully so, has him seaming edgy and burned out. There will be no downtime, there's more pressure to win on that stage than even at Duke.

Bottom line - we never became the fist - not even close. It wasn't because we didn't try, and that's all we can ask for.

Agree with all of that.

InSpades
03-21-2014, 05:00 PM
The sum of the whole is greater than the some of the parts. That should be true for the team w/ the hall of fame coach and instead it seems if anything we were less than the sum of our parts. I'm not sure why this team never came together... maybe the lack of a defensive presence inside, maybe the lack of a penetrating point...

Congrats to Mercer, they played a very good game.

There's many things I didn't get about this game... Duke came out pressing. I'm not sure if we've seen that all year. Why would you try something you haven't really tried all year?

Defense for offense w/ Jabari. Jabari is not a good defensive player (yet) but is it any wonder that a lineup of Cook/Thornton/Sulaimon/Hood/Jefferson struggles defensively? The lineup is very small. Beyond that... when you do get a defensive stop (or don't get a defensive stop) you end up on offense. That's where you want your all-american and you can't always stop the clock to get him back in the game. Let him play.

I still have a hard time believing we lose a game where we get 16 offensive rebounds and shoot 15 of 37 from 3.

It's disappointing. The only positive I can really take from this game is that if there was any chance Jabari or Rodney was coming back it would be to erase the memory of this game from their minds.

Either way the future if bright. Quinn, Rasheed, Amile and Marshall are a good nucleus. That inside post present and elite point guard? Well we've got those on the way in Tyus and Jahlil.

Thanks to the seniors for their hard work and dedication.

Saratoga2
03-21-2014, 05:07 PM
Quinn played a great game and took the shots and made them (7/10) when available. Rasheed played so hard and well, he is to be congratulated for his effort. Unfortunately our defense was ineffective throughout and for some reason Jabari chose to do a lot of his shooting from outside. We didn't seem to remember how Rodney got into the middle of a 2/3 zone and got the ball inside. Tough to lose with so much talent but we were a smallish team. Our only real size inside only got a few minutes.

In view of this loss, do we need to rethink our defensive strategies going forward?

DevilFalcon
03-21-2014, 05:08 PM
This game could have been won except these two plays at the end. The no call when Quinn was on the ground with the ball that was knocked off Rasheed's foot. The other is Rasheed letting his guy behind him for that inbound full court layup.
I'm disappointed in what I see as a grossly underachieving group.
A question... Why on earth did we stop the platoon substitutions? I don't remember a game that we didn't handily win while sticking to that.

Odd are strong we'll have less losses next year.

eddiehaskell
03-21-2014, 05:13 PM
I think this Mercer team was pretty decent. They beat Florida Gulf Coast last year. They beat Ole Miss this year and played Texas to a 3 point game in Austin.

Mercer is probably just as good as Notre Dame and Wake Forest who both beat us this year. With FIVE starting seniors that know this is it, they are definitely looking for a fight. I wouldn't say they are better than Duke, but I'd say they could win 1 out of 5...this was their 1.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-21-2014, 05:13 PM
I wish this were more surprising, but those of us who watched this team for the last few months can't be shocked.

I can't remember a team in the past with this level of talent, this quality of coach, and seemingly good chemistry that simply would fold like lawn-chairs at crunch time. The first few times it felt odd and like an anomaly, but over the course of the season how many time did we close out strong? Precious few. I still maintain that it might be a consequence of having experience and having talent, but not having them in the same body. Mercer clearly was more composed down the stretch.

My hope is that another year of experience leads Quinn and Sheed to be our veterans that the incoming kids look to in crunch time. I also hope that our additional size - combined with a coaching staff that has a year of film to look at - will lead to a SUBSTANTIALLY better defense. It felt so strange to watch a Duke team that did not have the substantial advantage at defense that we have become accustomed to.

The future is bright, certainly.

At the end of the day, I'm particularly sad to see it end this way for Dre. Felt he deserved to go out with a smile on his face. I hope nothing but the best for him and any other players who have put their Duke uniform on for the last time. Always some tears when a season ends in a loss.

dukelifer
03-21-2014, 05:14 PM
Genuinely surprised by who beat Duke, but not how Duke lost.

Mercer is really not that good of a team. They played great today, of course. But that team was the type of team Duke could run out of the building. However, I strongly suspect the Mercer coaching staff showed their team the Vermont tape over and over, because that's how Mercer played us. Mercer averaged over 20 3pt attempts per game this season. Today, they took just 13. It wasn't because Duke ran them off the 3s... it was because Mercer back-doored and drove on Duke. Just like Vermont.

When Duke was up 63-60 after some huge shots by Cook and Sulaimon, I thought they needed to start pounding it in to Jabari and try to draw fouls. But instead, they kept jacking up threes. Mercer may have been giving Duke the three, but Duke should have been TAKING the twos from Mercer. Played right into their hands. Mercer used their experience to finish them off.

Hood had a terrible game. Parker reverted to bad Jabari - settling for long, contested jumpers. K remained stubborn, refusing to play more than 6 guys meaningful minutes. We reap what we sow, I guess.

My only officiating gripe was that 6 or 7 traveling violations were called. Several of those did not appear to be travels. Anyone else feel that way?

Didn't cost Duke the game - defense did - but sure didn't make my stress level any lower.

Also, anyone who watched the game... you could hear the Duke hate from the crowd. So much for having a regional advantage...
63-60 and Duke had a couple possessions to make a shot or get fouled and get some separation. Then the kid hits the three to tie and wheels fell off. This is about handling the moment. Duke had chances to extend a few times- but could not get it done. That is less about talent and more about playing in the moment. This was the weakness of the team. It does not matter if it is Arizona or Mercer- you have to execute down the stretch. Mercer executed to their abilities and Duke did not.

DukieInKansas
03-21-2014, 05:18 PM
The poster above was me and I didn't say that!!!!


Sorry - should have been clearer about A poster above. You did not say you were disappointed in the team. It was someone that ended up a few above your post.

FerryFor50
03-21-2014, 05:18 PM
63-60 and Duke had a couple possessions to make a shot or get fouled and get some separation. Then the kid hits the three to tie and wheels fell off. This is about handling the moment. Duke had chances to extend a few times- but could not get it done. That is less about talent and more about playing in the moment. This was the weakness of the team. It does not matter if it is Arizona or Mercer- you have to execute down the stretch. Mercer executed to their abilities and Duke did not.

Yep. This team's idea of playing in the moment felt more like "let me be the hero." Sometimes it worked out, sometimes it didn't. Today, hero ball was jacking up a bad three rather than trying to drive and draw contact. Sheed did it once down the stretch and it worked. Then he tried it again with disastrous results.

dukelifer
03-21-2014, 05:18 PM
I think this Mercer team was pretty decent. They beat Florida Gulf Coast last year. They beat Ole Miss this year and played Texas to a 3 point game in Austin.

Mercer is probably just as good as Notre Dame and Wake Forest who both beat us this year. With FIVE starting seniors that know this is it, they are definitely looking for a fight. I wouldn't say they are better than Duke, but I'd say they could win 1 out of 5...this was their 1.

For those 5 players- it may have been their last game ever playing high level basketball. That is huge motivation. This is why nothing is guaranteed in sports. Teams playing together can do amazing things. Mercer will lose at some point soon- but those kids had their moment of a lifetime- beating Duke is big time. For the Duke players- that moment probably needed to be a championship- a very tall order.

Billy Dat
03-21-2014, 05:19 PM
It's hard to lump all three point shots into one category. We certainly were effective utilizing the three point shot today. As you also say we missed some good open looks in the flow of our offense. That said, we were the first team in the bonus in the second half and never really took advantage of that. We were never really able to establish Parker in positions where he was comfortable. For the most part he was pushed out to the perimeter and forced to take some threes or to get his own offense. Parker and Hood took some threes that were clearly forced in an attempt to get themselves going.

You are right about this. We didn't set up Jabari on the block enough, and, to me, it harkens back to a general lack of offensive structure this year. Sometimes I think this is where K's Team USA experience actually hurts us. He has evolved into a guy who loves talent, and giving that talent immense freedom to "read and react". I feel like this year's team could have used some more structure, some more extended sets rather than one or two screen quick hitters. Did you see some of that really nice action that Mercer was running? Tons of misdirection to free the big in the post? We never seemed to have anything like that in our repertoire.


Jabari's defense was atrocious today, but who in the game was doing a better job? The last 5 minutes Mercer got everything they wanted, even with Parker on the bench. Hood and Jefferson were equally as atrocious on the defensive end today. I am very surprised that Coach K would take out the number one pick in next year's NBA draft down the stretch, even as poorly as he was playing. There were several offensive possessions that we were stuck with Parker on the bench. Not sure I agree with you on the correctness of this call.


I'll disagree - a tiny bit. After Mercer took their 3-5 point lead in the first 5-8 minutes of the second half, and Duke started to panic, K benched Jabari in favor of Amile, Cook, Rasheed, Tyler (maybe) and Rodney (maybe). Anyway, there were times, I thought, when Jabari and Rodney were both off the floor...and that unit got us right back in the game. Granted, we did panic early and start fouling 35 feet from the basket in a hyper attempt to bring pressure - I think Amile wasted a few fouls this way - but we settled things down and Mercer was having a really hard time scoring from then on. When we were up 5 with 4:30 to go, here's what I recorded:
-Mercer entry pass, Duke covers well with 3 guys, their big lofts one up and it bounced around the rim 3 times and drops - well defended and the shot was kind of lucky - Duke +3
-Good defense, Hall missed a well defended runner - Duke still +3
-Good team defense leads to a Hall skip pass, guy nails a 24 footer - it was a bomb - tie score - 2:44 to go

Unfortunately, then we hit the Rodney meltdown - trips and in the process trips the offensive player - 2 foul shots - Mercer up 2. Rodney travels on the other end. Mercer comes down, beats Rodney backdoor and he fouls them for the and 1. Mercer up 5, Rodney fouls out. This happened not long after Rodney threw the ball out of bounds on offense. An absolutely terrible way for his career to end.

Anyway, once they went up 5, we never really got close again because we started fouling. But I didn't think our second half D from 15:00-3:00 was horrendous until Rodney went into a one man implosion - and I love Rodney - I hated to see him go out like that!

FerryFor50
03-21-2014, 05:20 PM
For those 5 players- it may have been their last game ever playing high level basketball. That is huge motivation. This is why nothing is guaranteed in sports. Teams playing together can do amazing things. Mercer will lose at some point soon- but those kids had their moment of a lifetime- beating Duke is big time. For the Duke players- that moment probably needed to be a championship- a very tall order.

It's so big time that Lehigh is still trolling Duke about beating them in 2012.

http://nesn.com/2014/03/duke-burned-by-lehigh-on-twitter-after-upset-loss-to-mercer/

johnb
03-21-2014, 05:20 PM
The most disappointing season (personally) since our slide in 194-95 when we lost all of those heartbreakingly close games and finished with a losing record.

194-95 was one long season. Brutal travel schedule--no planes, trains, or buses. Shooters got a break with rims made of wood. Ball bounced unevenly. And the Crazies were known as Blue Biles. The difficulties were, however, outweighed by the lack of expectation so that even when we lost, I didn't get an endless string of texts that either commiserated with my sad plight or felt obliged to point out how funny they found an early Duke loss.

FerryFor50
03-21-2014, 05:23 PM
194-95 was one long season. Brutal travel schedule--no planes, trains, or buses. Shooters got a break with rims made of wood. Ball bounced unevenly. And the Crazies were known as Blue Biles. The difficulties were, however, outweighed by the lack of expectation so that even when we lost, I didn't get an endless string of texts that either commiserated with my sad plight or felt obliged to point out how funny they found an early Duke loss.

Yea, but you had to deal with bubonic plague.

BRING OUT YOUR DEAD!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grbSQ6O6kbs&feature=kp

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-21-2014, 05:27 PM
Yea, but you had to deal with bubonic plague.

BRING OUT YOUR DEAD!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grbSQ6O6kbs&feature=kp

Even worse than Hood's jittery stomach for sure.

Dukehky
03-21-2014, 05:27 PM
I think the saddest part of this loss, is that Jabari and Rodney's legacy at Duke, nationally, will come to the fact that they lost in the first round to Mercer.

Not many people are going to remember much else, because we did not win anything as a team for the first time since 2007.

Not a fun day, gonna miss Dre most of all, I think.

bwl5
03-21-2014, 05:28 PM
This team lacked the one thing that our national title teams have had, a point guard that has a high basketball IQ and can run the team and act as the on floor coach. Lets look

1990 and 1991 - Hurley
2001 - Duhon
2010 - Scheyer

While Quinn is a good player he just hasnt developed into the leader on the floor that the team needed.

mgtr
03-21-2014, 05:29 PM
I was surprised at many things in this game, and most of them have been already mentioned. I agree with Mr. Synelinden that coaching/style of play is the biggest culprit. Hats off to Cook and Sulaimon for great games, and to Jefferson for a) being the most improved player this season and b) for a good rebounding job. Parker is a very good player on offense, but for some reason he sometimes reverts to "bad Jabari," stepping out and taking threes, instead of playing inside and drawing fouls (which he has proven he can do). He didn't help his draft stock today. Hood just had a bad game, and I am not sure why. Sorry to see the Seniors leave this way, but Tyler showed why he was a starter, and, as noted, will surely an assistant somewhere soon.
I am sorry to see us lose so soon, but this team provided some great games this year, and took UNC to the woodshed at Cameron. On to next year!

FerryFor50
03-21-2014, 05:32 PM
I think the saddest part of this loss, is that Jabari and Rodney's legacy at Duke, nationally, will come to the fact that they lost in the first round to Mercer.

Not many people are going to remember much else, because we did not win anything as a team for the first time since 2007.

Not a fun day, gonna miss Dre most of all, I think.

I disagree.

Was Austin Rivers' legacy at Duke the loss to Lehigh? Or the game winner at UNC?

Was Kyrie Irving's legacy at Duke the loss to Zona? Or how good he was for such a short stint?

Parker and Hood made their mark this season. Parker was freshman of the year and in consideration for NPOY. Hood had one of the best seasons of a Duke transfer ever. And they both destroyed UNC in the game at Cameron. And were huge in the Syracuse games.

One loss does not make a legacy.

_Gary
03-21-2014, 05:44 PM
I'm glad to see that there is a fairly good sense of perspective and lack of venting on this thread. The loss is extremely disappointing, particularly because it was again a late second half meltdown (20-8 in the last 4:30) and because it's another season of underperforming versus expectations.

I don't think it's venting to point out some very disturbing facts that can't be avoided or dismissed. During the last 8 years, Duke has been [insert appropriate adjective here - I'll go with "very bad"] in the second half of tournament games. Putting aside 2010, going back to 2007 (VCU) we have been collectively outscored 332-247 in the second half of 7 tournament losses. That's an average of 47.4 - 34.4. So we've been outscored on average by 13 points in the second half alone, and in only one of those games (Louisville 2013) were we the lower seeded team. Those numbers are startling. Also, collectively in those losses, we've shot a combined 28% from 3 point range for the game (with games in which we've shot 27 (Villanova), 26 (Lehigh), 22 (WVU) and 37! (Mercer) 3 pointers). Just to add some facts to the trend, in 2006, in our loss to LSU, we shot 5-26 from 3 pt range. And in our almost loss to Belmont in 2008 we shot 6-21 and lost the second half by 6.

I believe this is a problem with Duke's style of play and/or coaching. When you get to the NCAA tournament, most games are decided by the ability to get "easy" points down the stretch - that includes layups, putbacks and FTs. Shooting three pointers almost never results in one of those. Even the greater chance of an offensive rebound doesn't help there because those are usually long rebounds. The key sequence in the game today is very instructive. After we went up by 5 (63-58) Duke was in the bonus at this point - and Mercer was not. Mercer scored on a long jumper that bounced high off the rim and in - that was bad luck. But we had the ball and a 3 point lead (and were in the bonus) - and our next 6 possessions included a Hood turnover, a Hood missed 3 pointer, a Sulaimon air ball 3 pointer as the shot clock wound down, a Parker missed 3 pointer, a Hood travel, and a Dawkins missed 3 pointer. So we had two turnovers and 4 3 point shots. At the same time, Mercer took 1 3 pointer (which they hit) and made a layup on a great pass by Hall (with an and 1), and made 4 FTs. They got 7 points on layups and FTs and we couldn't even take a shot within the 3 point circle. You could even go a little further back to about the 8 minute mark when we first were in the bonus and look at some of those possessions - Hood drove the lane and had a pathway to the basket (with Duke in the bonus) but pulled up for a 10 footer that missed. Then Sulaimon missed a 3 pointer. Then Hood missed a 3 pointer, and then Quinn hit one. During that stretch, Mercer got a layup (and 1), a putback, and another layup. That was a mini 7-3 sequence, after which Parker drove to the basket, missed got his own rebound and put it back with an and 1 to put us back up by 2. After that, our next 2 point shot came on Rasheed's drive with :46 seconds left. So we went almost 5 minutes without attempting a drive to the basket or any shot that was likely to draw a foul or even any shot inside the 3 point line.

That is why Duke lost this game, and I really believe it is why we have lost many games in the tournament with second half collapses. Tournament games are mentally and physically draining. In close games late, teams play more deliberate and it becomes more of a half court contest. Teams are more prone to fouling inside because they are tired and don't want to give up easy baskets. It is much easier score inside and from the line when you are fatigued than it is to hit 21 foot jumpers. (Louisville seems to be the exception to this - and if you want to know why, go read The Last Great Game by Gene Wojciechowski and how Pitino conditions his teams). One of the reasons I think Michigan St. has had success in the NCAA tournament is because their teams have been consistently good at offensive rebounds/putbacks. I also think experience is a huge factor, but it shouldn't be enough to outweigh some of the talent disparities in the games Duke has lost.

One of the issues for Duke recently may be that for many years we have not had a point guard with above average ability to break down a defense by getting into the paint and either draw fouls or get the ball to teammates in position where they can draw fouls. But I just don't think we're coached well enough to play as a team the style that leads to success in most tournament games.

Sporks for this excellent post that does indeed point out a glaring issue that most Duke teams have had for at least the last 7 to 8 years (2010 & 2011 being exceptions). More later after I've read the remainder of the thread.

tendev
03-21-2014, 06:45 PM
I'm glad to see that there is a fairly good sense of perspective and lack of venting on this thread. The loss is extremely disappointing, particularly because it was again a late second half meltdown (20-8 in the last 4:30) and because it's another season of underperforming versus expectations.

I don't think it's venting to point out some very disturbing facts that can't be avoided or dismissed. During the last 8 years, Duke has been [insert appropriate adjective here - I'll go with "very bad"] in the second half of tournament games. Putting aside 2010, going back to 2007 (VCU) we have been collectively outscored 332-247 in the second half of 7 tournament losses. That's an average of 47.4 - 34.4. So we've been outscored on average by 13 points in the second half alone, and in only one of those games (Louisville 2013) were we the lower seeded team. Those numbers are startling. Also, collectively in those losses, we've shot a combined 28% from 3 point range for the game (with games in which we've shot 27 (Villanova), 26 (Lehigh), 22 (WVU) and 37! (Mercer) 3 pointers). Just to add some facts to the trend, in 2006, in our loss to LSU, we shot 5-26 from 3 pt range. And in our almost loss to Belmont in 2008 we shot 6-21 and lost the second half by 6.

I believe this is a problem with Duke's style of play and/or coaching. When you get to the NCAA tournament, most games are decided by the ability to get "easy" points down the stretch - that includes layups, putbacks and FTs. Shooting three pointers almost never results in one of those. Even the greater chance of an offensive rebound doesn't help there because those are usually long rebounds. The key sequence in the game today is very instructive. After we went up by 5 (63-58) Duke was in the bonus at this point - and Mercer was not. Mercer scored on a long jumper that bounced high off the rim and in - that was bad luck. But we had the ball and a 3 point lead (and were in the bonus) - and our next 6 possessions included a Hood turnover, a Hood missed 3 pointer, a Sulaimon air ball 3 pointer as the shot clock wound down, a Parker missed 3 pointer, a Hood travel, and a Dawkins missed 3 pointer. So we had two turnovers and 4 3 point shots. At the same time, Mercer took 1 3 pointer (which they hit) and made a layup on a great pass by Hall (with an and 1), and made 4 FTs. They got 7 points on layups and FTs and we couldn't even take a shot within the 3 point circle. You could even go a little further back to about the 8 minute mark when we first were in the bonus and look at some of those possessions - Hood drove the lane and had a pathway to the basket (with Duke in the bonus) but pulled up for a 10 footer that missed. Then Sulaimon missed a 3 pointer. Then Hood missed a 3 pointer, and then Quinn hit one. During that stretch, Mercer got a layup (and 1), a putback, and another layup. That was a mini 7-3 sequence, after which Parker drove to the basket, missed got his own rebound and put it back with an and 1 to put us back up by 2. After that, our next 2 point shot came on Rasheed's drive with :46 seconds left. So we went almost 5 minutes without attempting a drive to the basket or any shot that was likely to draw a foul or even any shot inside the 3 point line.

That is why Duke lost this game, and I really believe it is why we have lost many games in the tournament with second half collapses. Tournament games are mentally and physically draining. In close games late, teams play more deliberate and it becomes more of a half court contest. Teams are more prone to fouling inside because they are tired and don't want to give up easy baskets. It is much easier score inside and from the line when you are fatigued than it is to hit 21 foot jumpers. (Louisville seems to be the exception to this - and if you want to know why, go read The Last Great Game by Gene Wojciechowski and how Pitino conditions his teams). One of the reasons I think Michigan St. has had success in the NCAA tournament is because their teams have been consistently good at offensive rebounds/putbacks. I also think experience is a huge factor, but it shouldn't be enough to outweigh some of the talent disparities in the games Duke has lost.

One of the issues for Duke recently may be that for many years we have not had a point guard with above average ability to break down a defense by getting into the paint and either draw fouls or get the ball to teammates in position where they can draw fouls. But I just don't think we're coached well enough to play as a team the style that leads to success in most tournament games.


I agree with a lot of this especially the ability to get easy points in crunch time. It is really hard when you are the favorite to hit 3s to keep yourself in the game or ahead. Of course the opposite side of the coin is stopping easy baskets. Mercer shot 55% for the game and was 23-28 from the line. 23 points from the line are easy baskets. And 55% speaks for itself.

People have already said it repeatedly that our defensive limitations really hurt. They have hurt us all year.

I also think early departures keep us from becoming better as a team. Each year the team is different and that has to make it hard to develop cohesion and team unity.

El_Diablo
03-21-2014, 06:53 PM
Must...drink...more....

papa whiskey
03-21-2014, 07:02 PM
I'm just glad i didn't have to work today. If there is one thing that can take this kind of sting away its whiskey and Bojangles at three in the afternoon.

tendev
03-21-2014, 07:03 PM
Must...drink...more....

Excellent and thoughtful post. But I think you should have added another "more".

J4Kop99
03-21-2014, 07:08 PM
Someone mentioned this up-thread but seeing Parker as the vocal "leader" of this team just felt wrong. He still has so much to improve on, how is he going to lead a team at this point in his career? Some may argue that this is not important but I think that Parker being the "leader" and our team showing little to no effort on the defensive end have a direct relationship.

It's rare that a Duke team plays an entire season without ever figuring out its identity but that was the case this year. They were so inconsistent in their play that it actually became consistent... if that makes sense.

I think the blame for this season starts from the top down. Coach K never seemed to be able to get this team to play as one and the players themselves clearly did not put in the necessary effort. There is no excuse for their defensive struggles.

Furniture
03-21-2014, 07:26 PM
A couple of people have complained about Jabari being vocal and calling for the huddle. I can't for the life of me understand why.
Anyway, if nobody else has said I would like to thank the powers that be for opening up the place to chat about the loss. It really helps the grieving process!!

vrob90
03-21-2014, 07:52 PM
I wish someone could explain the central question suggested by this season, i.e., how a Duke team with so much individual talent compared to their opponents in most cases (including Mercer today) ended up with this year's overall results, culminating in today's loss to Mercer on national television. The emails I've received since the game ended aren't gloating or triumphal. They're baffled and, I admit, I am too.

_Gary
03-21-2014, 07:52 PM
Okay, here's my take on the game and the season (because the game was a microcosm of the season).

There were three big things that stood out to me for almost the entire year. None of these things changed, although admittedly two of the three things I'm going to mention are more difficult to change. The first was cohesion on both sides of the court. This, of course, not only can change as the year progresses but should change (for the better) as the year progresses. Yet it seemed to me we never really got better as a unit on either the defensive or offensive side of the court. Defensively we were limited by guards that simply don't seem to have the lateral quickness to stay in front of their man. In almost every one of our losses, and most of our close shave wins, we were carved up by opposing guards that could face up and blow past us. They got into the lane at will and caused havoc. And our help defense was never quite quick enough, or smart enough, to rotate and prevent easy buckets. In fact, I'm not sure when I can ever remember a Duke team that gave up so many easy buckets to their opponents. On the offensive side of the ball, we struggled to find an identity and really play as a unit. Too much of either Jabari, Rodney, or later in the season Rasheed having to make something happen on their own off the dribble. Heck, had Rodney not been so good hitting threes off a dribble or two, we'd have lost a lot more than we did. His ability to create just enough space to get a shot off on the perimeter was amazing - and needed. But the reality is we simply never gelled as a unit on either side of the ball.

Secondly, I fell like our PGs were lacking in one critical area offensively - dribble penetration in the half court. Neither Tyler nor Quinn, both of whom I love, really demonstrated they could do this consistently. Heck, they rarely showed that at all the entire season. Quinn did it a bit on breaks, but almost never once we were in a set. Rasheed, trying to channel his inner Nolan, took it upon himself to drive a good bit midway through the year. Sometimes he was successful and it paid big dividends. Sometimes he wasn't and it hurt us with turnovers or forced shots. As I thought about this loss, along with the recent outs to VCU and Lehigh, I realized that we've really been hurt by the lack of a quick, penetrating point guard most of the time. Other than Kyrie (for about 1/4 of one season), and the year when Nolan and Jon combined to play a very disciplined PG/SG role, we've been hurt by this lack. If we look at the starters at PG in those other seasons since 2006 it's been kind of lean in terms of a solid, quick, penetrating PG. And that's why I'm hoping that next season Tyus will bring that ability back to Duke basketball. Because let's face it - a quick PG with the ability to drive and either finish or dish covers a multitude of sins. If we are honest we haven't had many of those type PG's in recent memory (outside of Kyrie). I'm not getting on the guys that did play the position this year. They did what they could. Sometimes it's just about physical limitations and sometimes it's mental. But regardless of the reason, we need that type of player in the worst way, imho. I'm tired of opposing points being able to get into the lane at a much larger clip than ours.

Thirdly, I felt like size really hurt us this year and in this game. Coach K talked about it a little in the post-game presser. They were bigger/taller than us at almost every position. I do feel like we should have used Marshall more than we did this year (and today), but going forward I'm at least relieved that we should be in much better shape on this front. But make no mistake, it hurt us to be as small as we were in most of the games we played. Jabari played out of position most of the time. So did Jefferson, who did as much as he could throughout the year. But he's no center. And when we ran with Quinn, Tyler and Rasheed we were always going to be small. That's just a tough combo unless we are abusing the other team with quickness. And that was NOT happening when those three were in the game together.

I'll just wind this up by saying I appreciated the team this year (as always). They played their butts off. And I'll miss the seniors (especially Andre, who I hurt for most of all). Hopefully the team can gel better next year with more traditional parts (a true center and true, quick pg). The future is bright. Even brighter if Jabari stays. Hey, a guy can dream can't he? :)

Gthoma2a
03-21-2014, 08:08 PM
I can't for the life of me understand why UNC is playing in San Antonio and have more fans attending their game than we had in Raleigh.

rfaison
03-21-2014, 08:24 PM
Thanks for that... And he is absolutely right! I actually thought about he and Hurley quite a bit during today's game. Times have changed.

And how many years were those guys able to play together? Talk about cohesive teams, they were like a well-oiled machine. The one-and-done era had not yet begun. If it had, could they have accomplished as much? Who knows. I detest this particular change in the times.

Rich
03-21-2014, 08:33 PM
Considering the very positive start of the season, I can't help but think the loss of K's brother had a profound emotional effect on the team as well as K for the remainder. I've been watching K for 20+ years, and upon his return from losing his brother, I could easily tell he was a different person/coach. He just wasn't 'there'. I'm sure K's grief carried over to the team and although they tried to 'win it for K', emotional stress can take a serious toll. Look at Andre when he lost his sister. He retreated for a long time and is still not 100% compared to the overall player he was prior to his sister's death. Just trying to consider the possible emotional side.

Next year we'll have some great recruits and hopefully a renewed spirit and fire across the board.

I'm sorry, but this drives me crazy. As we've learned over the course of several years, we need senior leadership on the court in key roles. Whether Quinn can provide that is anyone's guess, but to rely on our recruits is a losing proposition unless, of course, we're talking about 3 or 4 years from now and they decide to stay.

Devilwin
03-21-2014, 08:34 PM
I can't for the life of me understand why UNC is playing in San Antonio and have more fans attending their game than we had in Raleigh.

Because Duke fans have jobs....

eddiehaskell
03-21-2014, 08:39 PM
I wish someone could explain the central question suggested by this season, i.e., how a Duke team with so much individual talent compared to their opponents in most cases (including Mercer today) ended up with this year's overall results, culminating in today's loss to Mercer on national television. The emails I've received since the game ended aren't gloating or triumphal. They're baffled and, I admit, I am too.As Kenny Smith mentioned, Mercer has 5 seniors starting - these guys may not be on Jabari's level, but with 4 years under their belts, they have developed their skills and know how to win a game. If I'm not mistaken they also said Mercer is the only school to start 5 seniors the entire season. Duke started ONE upperclassman (Tyler Thorton) and no disrespect, but he is largely a role player that is no better than some of the Mercer guards.

The bulk of Duke's individual talent is Jabari and Rodney - they were able to shut them down. No surprise they can win if that happens.

Saratoga2
03-21-2014, 08:43 PM
With the change in defensive foul calls, charging and hand contact calls most teams used zone some or most of the time. We almost never used it. Did our man to man defense and hedging far from the basket hurt us by increasing our fouls and opening up the Backdoor opportunities? Was it personnel or method that caused our poor defensive efficiency?

_Gary
03-21-2014, 08:44 PM
With the change in defensive foul calls, charging and hand contact calls most teams used zone some or most of the time. We almost never used it. Did our man to man defense and hedging far from the basket hurt us by increasing our fouls and opening up the Backdoor opportunities? Was it personnel or method that caused our poor defensive efficiency?

Personally I think it was a little of both. That probably sounds like a copout, but I do believe it's true.

gofurman
03-21-2014, 08:46 PM
Okay, here's my take on the game and the season (because the game was a microcosm of the season).

There were three big things that stood out to me for almost the entire year. None of these things changed, although admittedly two of the three things I'm going to mention are more difficult to change. The first was cohesion on both sides of the court. This, of course, not only can change as the year progresses but should change (for the better) as the year progresses. Yet it seemed to me we never really got better as a unit on either the defensive or offensive side of the court. Defensively we were limited by guards that simply don't seem to have the lateral quickness to stay in front of their man. In almost every one of our losses, and most of our close shave wins, we were carved up by opposing guards that could face up and blow past us. They got into the lane at will and caused havoc. And our help defense was never quite quick enough, or smart enough, to rotate and prevent easy buckets. In fact, I'm not sure when I can ever remember a Duke team that gave up so many easy buckets to their opponents. On the offensive side of the ball, we struggled to find an identity and really play as a unit. Too much of either Jabari, Rodney, or later in the season Rasheed having to make something happen on their own off the dribble. Heck, had Rodney not been so good hitting threes off a dribble or two, we'd have lost a lot more than we did. His ability to create just enough space to get a shot off on the perimeter was amazing - and needed. But the reality is we simply never gelled as a unit on either side of the ball.

Secondly, I fell like our PGs were lacking in one critical area offensively - dribble penetration in the half court. Neither Tyler nor Quinn, both of whom I love, really demonstrated they could do this consistently. Heck, they rarely showed that at all the entire season. Quinn did it a bit on breaks, but almost never once we were in a set. Rasheed, trying to channel his inner Nolan, took it upon himself to drive a good bit midway through the year. Sometimes he was successful and it paid big dividends. Sometimes he wasn't and it hurt us with turnovers or forced shots. As I thought about this loss, along with the recent outs to VCU and Lehigh, I realized that we've really been hurt by the lack of a quick, penetrating point guard most of the time. Other than Kyrie (for about 1/4 of one season), and the year when Nolan and Jon combined to play a very disciplined PG/SG role, we've been hurt by this lack. If we look at the starters at PG in those other seasons since 2006 it's been kind of lean in terms of a solid, quick, penetrating PG. And that's why I'm hoping that next season Tyus will bring that ability back to Duke basketball. Because let's face it - a quick PG with the ability to drive and either finish or dish covers a multitude of sins. If we are honest we haven't had many of those type PG's in recent memory (outside of Kyrie). I'm not getting on the guys that did play the position this year. They did what they could. Sometimes it's just about physical limitations and sometimes it's mental. But regardless of the reason, we need that type of player in the worst way, imho. I'm tired of opposing points being able to get into the lane at a much larger clip than ours.

Thirdly, I felt like size really hurt us this year and in this game. Coach K talked about it a little in the post-game presser. They were bigger/taller than us at almost every position. I do feel like we should have used Marshall more than we did this year (and today), but going forward I'm at least relieved that we should be in much better shape on this front. But make no mistake, it hurt us to be as small as we were in most of the games we played. Jabari played out of position most of the time. So did Jefferson, who did as much as he could throughout the year. But he's no center. And when we ran with Quinn, Tyler and Rasheed we were always going to be small. That's just a tough combo unless we are abusing the other team with quickness. And that was NOT happening when those three were in the game together.

I'll just wind this up by saying I appreciated the team this year (as always). They played their butts off. And I'll miss the seniors (especially Andre, who I hurt for most of all). Hopefully the team can gel better next year with more traditional parts (a true center and true, quick pg). The future is bright. Even brighter if Jabari stays. Hey, a guy can dream can't he? :)

YEP - so here is my take. You choose whether to be bigger or quicker .. Simply put you choose ---Bigger and slower...Or smaller and Quicker. A few rare guys (Jabari) can do both. With all that nasty NBA talent on our side how can we complain about being small? Dam,;it if we - the team w all the McD boys - are smaller than Mercer then we sure as He;l ought to be faster than them. I mean, if we pick top 50 recruits and they have NONE then how can we be small and slow?? Equally talented guys who are smaller are faster. Uber talented guys? If they are smaller they ought to be blowing by Mercer. And if the size is bothering you then play Plumlee dammmit. Don't whine - WIN.

And what of all the scouting that said all these guys at Mercer did was pass around the perimeter and hoist 3s??? Then how did they get so many FTs?

Please help me understand. Are we recruiting top talent that is slow, can't play D, and makes up for it by being short?!!!!!

bluebeagle
03-21-2014, 08:53 PM
I think mr. synellinden pretty much nailed it. The other thing I would like to comment on as far as the offense goes is the fast break. I thought this would be the year we started pushing the ball more. I don't know how many times, especially in the first half of the season Parker would rebound the ball and start to take off down the court and see no one else was running. Then he would turn around and hand the ball to Quinn and he would walk it up the floor. Why would you ever want to play against a set defense? As far as the defense goes I think it might be time for a change in defensive philosophy.(Not going to happen) Trying to guard someone that's as quick or quicker than you out near half court just isn't working. It usually goes like this. Marshall or Amil gets out of position by trying to guard the point guard out near the top of the key. That then puts everyone else scrambling on defense to cover their man. Out of position. Leading to easy drives or wide open threes. I find myself screaming at Marshall TO GET UNDER THE BASKET! YOU'RE 7 FEET TALL!! I don't think it's lack of communication or lack of effort or lack of heart or desire or even because the other players are bigger. Our defensive philosophy just ain't working. It hasn't for quiet some time. I remember when we played Louisville last year I was hoping K would pack the defense in just one possession to see if they could hit a three. Didn't happen though and Silva and that other dude just drove us to death. Proud of our guys though. Thanks to all of them and good luck what ever you do.

daveduke76
03-21-2014, 08:53 PM
A couple of people have complained about Jabari being vocal and calling for the huddle. I can't for the life of me understand why.
Anyway, if nobody else has said I would like to thank the powers that be for opening up the place to chat about the loss. It really helps the grieving process!!

I must agree, these posts are helpful. Unfortunately the grieving process started way to early this year. Just wonder, like ,many posters if Coach K shouldn't have called a timeout and gotten them to drive to the basket. All the 3s at the end just didn't make sense

FerryFor50
03-21-2014, 08:54 PM
Please help me understand. Are we recruiting top talent that is slow, can't play D, and makes up for it by being short?!!!!!

Well, Duke has recruited:

7 footer Kaleb Tarczewski (now at Zona)
7'1" Isaiah Austin (Baylor)
7'1" Przemek Karnowski (Gonzaga)

Probably a number of other 7 footers that I am forgetting about. But having 3 Plumlees over the years doesn't make bigs want to come to Duke because there wouldn't be as much playing time for them.

Let's not forget 6'10" Jahlil Okafor, who is coming to Duke next season.

Recruiting bigs and getting bigs are different beasts.

azzefkram
03-21-2014, 08:58 PM
A disappointing, but not unexpected, loss. Everything I start to write veers into bleak negativity so I'll keep it short to avoid stepping on people's feelings. This should have been one of the great Duke teams. We had loads of talent but, for whatever reason, they were unable maximize it throughout individual games or the season as a whole. I was a mostly fun ride that unfortunately for me will have that grain of regret over what could/should have been.

To our seniors, Dre, Tyler and Josh, thank you for representing us so well and giving your all. To Rodney and Jabari, I wish we could have you for more than one season but I understand to opportunity before you and wish you both well. To those coming back next year, find a way to use this.

gofurman
03-21-2014, 09:07 PM
I think mr. synellinden pretty much nailed it. The other thing I would like to comment on as far as the offense goes is the fast break. I thought this would be the year we started pushing the ball more. I don't know how many times, especially in the first half of the season Parker would rebound the ball and start to take off down the court and see no one else was running. Then he would turn around and hand the ball to Quinn and he would walk it up the floor. Why would you ever want to play against a set defense? As far as the defense goes I think it might be time for a change in defensive philosophy.(Not going to happen) Trying to guard someone that's as quick or quicker than you out near half court just isn't working. It usually goes like this. Marshall or Amil gets out of position by trying to guard the point guard out near the top of the key. That then puts everyone else scrambling on defense to cover their man. Out of position. Leading to easy drives or wide open threes. I find myself screaming at Marshall TO GET UNDER THE BASKET! YOU'RE 7 FEET TALL!! I don't think it's lack of communication or lack of effort or lack of heart or desire or even because the other players are bigger. Our defensive philosophy just ain't working. It hasn't for quiet some time. I remember when we played Louisville last year I was hoping K would pack the defense in just one possession to see if they could hit a three. Didn't happen though and Silva and that other dude just drove us to death. Proud of our guys though. Thanks to all of them and good luck what ever you do.

Yep - if we can't stay in front of them... ADJUST DAM:;MNIT. Back off and dare the three - now I grant that today this didn't bother me so much bc Mercer hits the three a lot so I get it. But once it's second half and if they are beating you off the dribble maybe back off on occasion? Don't be stubborn! To that pt of be willing to change what was so cool and enthused the team this year??? Answer: The hockey line changes - a new thing! Worked to enthuse the team and inspire the Defense. Sometimes you need to look at changes. One of the most impressive things I have seen in last 5 years was K admitting 2010 couldn't stay in front of people and so backing off the passing lanes. That turned out pretty well hmm

gofurman
03-21-2014, 09:15 PM
Well, Duke has recruited:

7 footer Kaleb Tarczewski (now at Zona)
7'1" Isaiah Austin (Baylor)
7'1" Przemek Karnowski (Gonzaga)

Probably a number of other 7 footers that I am forgetting about. But having 3 Plumlees over the years doesn't make bigs want to come to Duke because there wouldn't be as much playing time for them.

Let's not forget 6'10" Jahlil Okafor, who is coming to Duke next season.

Recruiting bigs and getting bigs are different beasts.

That's my point. If K is going to whine about size play Plumlee... Don't say "Mercer is big" whining... and have Plum3 on the bench. Either play our big ...or use our "short" guys to blow by them. Either match up big for big - we have a 7 footer or Jabari and Rodney should be able to blow by....

FerryFor50
03-21-2014, 09:17 PM
That's my point. If K is going to whine about size play Plumlee... Don't say "Mercer is big" whining... and have Plum3 on the bench. Either play our big ...or use our "short" guys to blow by them. Either match up big for big - we have a 7 footer or Jabari and Rodney should be able to blow by....

I don't think he was whining. But I agree - if you recognize that your team is small, then maybe matchup better?

DukeDevilDeb
03-21-2014, 09:25 PM
RE: 3s and Rebounding


Bottom line - we never became the fist - not even close. It wasn't because we didn't try, and that's all we can ask for.

I kept saying this and saying this... there was no together in this team... They were often 5 separate fingers and couldn't deliver a punch. I am disappointed for the kids, for Rasheed and Quinn because they played SO well and still lost... for Jabari and Rodney because everyone has talked about how good they are and they looked nothing like good today.

I am puzzled too by the number of posters who are wondering why Jabari wasn't in for defense at the end of the game. Have you been watching Duke basketball this season? This is the first Duke team in a long time that NEVER GOT DEFENSE. Rodney got better over the season, but Jabari just didn't get it. I sat in Cameron and watched him over and over making defensive errors (freshman errors, mind you... the kid is a terrific player overall). He was taught to score, and that he could do. He was taught to rebound and did that well. But we were much better off (relatively speaking, of course) with Amile on defensive rather than Jabari.

Finally, I will truly be sorry if this is Rodney and Jabari's last game. Both could learn so much with another year here. I'm not saying that as a selfish fan (although, of course, I am! ;)) but because I truly believe that another year to work on being a fist and understanding defense would raise their games substantially. I get the money; I get the dream.... but I miss the days where the rule was the four-year player. We won a National Championship in 2010 not because we had the most talented team, but because we started 3 seniors and 2 juniors and had all the experience in the world.

Thanks to the players and coaches. Although this season didn't end the way any of us wanted, I am still Duke blue to my bones. Next play, next season!

Gthoma2a
03-21-2014, 09:35 PM
Because Duke fans have jobs....

True, but I was thinking about kids taking the afternoon to watch the game. It was not very far away, at all. It was down the road.

turnandburn55
03-21-2014, 09:37 PM
This is the first Duke team in a long time that NEVER GOT DEFENSE.

Our defense was mediocre at best the year before last.

Henderson
03-21-2014, 09:55 PM
I appreciate all the fine parsing, but there is one immutable perennial permanent unequivocal everlasting undeniable fact of basketball:

You have to put the orange bouncy leather round thingy into the orange netted metal round thingy.

Here are the shooting percentage stats from the 9 losses this year:

Kansas 56% Duke 52%
Arizona 49% Duke 43%
Notre Dame 53% Duke 41%
Clemson 47% Duke 34%
Syracuse 57% Duke 43%
uncch 47% Duke 43%
Wake 46% Duke 43%
UVa 45% Duke 38%
Mercer 56% Duke 36%

Average Duke Shooting in Losses: 41%

Here are the shooting stats from the 26 wins:

Davidson 42% Duke 70%
FAU 45% Duke 57%
UNCA 33% Duke 57%
ECU 40% Duke 47%
Vermont 65% Duke 49%
Alabama 40% Duke 43%
Michigan 44% Duke 50%
Gardner-Webb 54% Duke 50%
UCLA 40% Duke 48%
Eastern Michigan 38% Duke 40%
Elon 35% Duke 49%
Georgia Tech 49% Duke 47%
UVa 38% Duke 45%
NC State: 48% Duke 50%
Miami: 35% Duke 43%
FSU 50% Duke 31%
Pitt: 41% Duke 48%
Wake 49% Duke 51%
BC 46% Duke 56%
Maryland 42% Duke 33%
Georgia Tech 39% Duke 45%
Syracuse 39% Duke 48%
VaTech 43% Duke 39%
uncch 60% Duke 51%
Clemson 51% Duke 40%
NC State 49% Duke 57%

Average Duke Shooting in Wins: 48%

Our record when shooting a lower % than the opponent: 17-18

Some notes:

1. You can win without beating the other team in shooting %. Especially against lesser teams. And you can make up ground with 3PT shots.

2. You can lose while shooting a higher percentage, although this year not once did we lose while shooting a higher % than the opponent. And we had some nail biters (Maryland and EMU e.g.) that would not have been nail biters had we shot more effectively.

3. Yes, there are a lot of reasons for poor shooting that have to do with how the other team is defending. But how many times did we hear Coach K say in a presser after a loss: "We got open looks; they just weren't falling"? And wasn't there a LOT of clanging of iron against UVa and Mercer? I'm talking open shots. Our designated 3-pt shooter was 0-5 today in 13 minutes.

4. It's easier to shoot a high % when you have a strong post presence so you have points in the paint. But we had the same team all year, and when we shot the ball well, we tended to win; when we shot the ball poorly, we tended to lose.

5. The most painful losses of the season came when we shot poorly. Against Notre Dame, Clemson, uncch1, Wake, UVa2, and Mercer we averaged 39%

Basketball can be a very complex game with a lot going on. But basketball is also a simple game of putting the ball in the hoop. If you do that poorly, you will not win consistently.

vrob90
03-21-2014, 10:05 PM
Well, Duke has recruited:

7 footer Kaleb Tarczewski (now at Zona)
7'1" Isaiah Austin (Baylor)
7'1" Przemek Karnowski (Gonzaga)

Probably a number of other 7 footers that I am forgetting about. But having 3 Plumlees over the years doesn't make bigs want to come to Duke because there wouldn't be as much playing time for them.

Let's not forget 6'10" Jahlil Okafor, who is coming to Duke next season.

Recruiting bigs and getting bigs are different beasts.


Sure, I understand that size was a factor, as K apparently pointed out, but it seems a stretch (no pun intended) to believe that Mercer can recruit big men better than Duke, which would seem to be the implicit explanation. If that's the case, it suggests some fairly radical changes in approach to recruiting might be worth considering. Surely Duke could have recruited some big men of the caliber Mercer fielded this afternoon.

FerryFor50
03-21-2014, 10:18 PM
Sure, I understand that size was a factor, as K apparently pointed out, but it seems a stretch (no pun intended) to believe that Mercer can recruit big men better than Duke, which would seem to be the implicit explanation. If that's the case, it suggests some fairly radical changes in approach to recruiting might be worth considering. Surely Duke could have recruited some big men of the caliber Mercer fielded this afternoon.

I honestly didn't understand his statement. Mercer isn't overly big.

Today, this is who played for Mercer, their minutes and size:

Jake Gallon - 33 min 6'6"
Langston Hall - 35 min 6'4"
Dan Coursey - 31 min 6'10"
Bud Thomas - 30 min 6'6"
Ike Nwamu - 23 min 6'5"
Anthony White - 22 min 6'2"
Darious Moten - 8 min 6'6"
Kevin Canevari - 6 min 5'11"
Jibri Bryan - 4 min 6'"
Monty Brown - 4 min 6'11"
TJ Halice - 3 min 6'9"
Phillip Leonard - 1 min 6'2"

They had one player over 6'9" play more than 10 minutes. The other two combined to play 7 minutes. The rest of the guys who played are under 6'7". I'm failing to see the "bigness" of Mercer. And if Mercer was so "big," how did Duke kill them on the boards? I'm confused at what K meant by that...

Also noteworthy, they had the only significant big (Coursey) in foul trouble. Yet they failed to go after him to get him out of the game.

CR9
03-21-2014, 10:18 PM
Sure, I understand that size was a factor, as K apparently pointed out, but it seems a stretch (no pun intended) to believe that Mercer can recruit big men better than Duke, which would seem to be the implicit explanation. If that's the case, it suggests some fairly radical changes in approach to recruiting might be worth considering. Surely Duke could have recruited some big men of the caliber Mercer fielded this afternoon.

Few teams recruit better than Duke. But it seems clear that many teams these days either coach better or motivate better than Duke does.

_Gary
03-21-2014, 10:22 PM
I honestly didn't understand his statement. Mercer isn't overly big.

Today, this is who played for Mercer, their minutes and size:

Jake Gallon - 33 min 6'6"
Langston Hall - 35 min 6'4"
Dan Coursey - 31 min 6'10"
Bud Thomas - 30 min 6'6"
Ike Nwamu - 23 min 6'5"
Anthony White - 22 min 6'2"
Darious Moten - 8 min 6'6"
Kevin Canevari - 6 min 5'11"
Jibri Bryan - 4 min 6'"
Monty Brown - 4 min 6'11"
TJ Halice - 3 min 6'9"
Phillip Leonard - 1 min 6'2"

They had one player over 6'9" play more than 10 minutes. The other two combined to play 7 minutes. The rest of the guys who played are under 6'7". I'm failing to see the "bigness" of Mercer. And if Mercer was so "big," how did Duke kill them on the boards? I'm confused at what K meant by that...

Also noteworthy, they had the only significant big (Coursey) in foul trouble. Yet they failed to go after him to get him out of the game.

I admit those stats give me pause. The only thing I can say is that the tried and true "eye test" was telling me Mercer was bigger than us at just about every position today. And Coach K seemed to agree. So I can't explain the measurements.

FerryFor50
03-21-2014, 10:31 PM
I admit those stats give me pause. The only thing I can say is that the tried and true "eye test" was telling me Mercer was bigger than us at just about every position today. And Coach K seemed to agree. So I can't explain the measurements.

Right, but that didn't stop Duke from killing them on the boards. And bigger doesn't mean you can drive by players at will, nor does it mean you can't drive on them.

Just a weird statement to make.

Most of the game, Mercer trotted out a center that was only an inch taller than Parker and Jefferson and 4 guards. Nothing "big" about that.

_Gary
03-21-2014, 10:33 PM
Right, but that didn't stop Duke from killing them on the boards. And bigger doesn't mean you can drive by players at will, nor does it mean you can't drive on them.

Just a weird statement to make.

Most of the game, Mercer trotted out a center that was only an inch taller than Parker and Jefferson and 4 guards. Nothing "big" about that.

Yet they had a much more effective inside game.

UrinalCake
03-21-2014, 10:45 PM
This year Coach K resorted to more of an NBA-style offense - lots of one on one and isolations, very few set plays, very little movement. Even coming out of timeouts when you'd expect us to run a play to generate a good shot, we'd still come away with a rushed 3 or contested shot. I'm not sure if this was an attempt to cater to current and future players by preparing them for the NBA, if it's the influence of the National Team, or if he really felt that this was the best way to maximize our talent, but it was really odd to see so little "team" play and it certainly carried over to the defensive end.

This year had some high points but was disappointing overall, mainly because it never felt like we were maximizing our talent. Hoping for more balance next year and certainly a better finish to the season.

UrinalCake
03-21-2014, 10:50 PM
I admit those stats give me pause. The only thing I can say is that the tried and true "eye test" was telling me Mercer was bigger than us at just about every position today. And Coach K seemed to agree. So I can't explain the measurements.

I think when Coach K said "bigger" he meant stronger and more physically mature. Let's face it, a 22 year-old is going to be a lot stronger than an 18 year-old.

Fans of our opponents have been calling this Duke team "soft," which is pretty hard to hear. At the risk of sounding overly critical, I can understand where that viewpoint comes from - we have guys who are really talented but don't have a banger inside, and having to play guys out of position due to our lack of a center (at least one who plays significant minutes) only compounds the problem.

_Gary
03-21-2014, 10:53 PM
I think when Coach K said "bigger" he meant stronger and more physically mature. Let's face it, a 22 year-old is going to be a lot stronger than an 18 year-old.

Fans of our opponents have been calling this Duke team "soft," which is pretty hard to hear. At the risk of sounding overly critical, I can understand where that viewpoint comes from - we have guys who are really talented but don't have a banger inside, and having to play guys out of position due to our lack of a center (at least one who plays significant minutes) only compounds the problem.

I agree. Our "bigs", other than Jabari and Marshall, are thin. So if you put them next to guys that are basically the same height, but have more muscle and thickness, they (the opponents) will appear bigger overall. And while I think Parker was willing to bang with the best of them, and that Amile also showed toughness, I too can see why some might have seen this version of the Blue Devils as a tad "soft." Not saying I necessarily agree with that sentiment. But I can understand it.

DukeGrad
03-21-2014, 11:12 PM
Maybe I missed it, but why didn't Marshall play? It seems he could have given Duke at least a little bulk, and of course, considerable height. With Coach K saying Mercer was so much bigger, I would think that Plum3 might have gotten at least a few minutes.

Henderson
03-21-2014, 11:17 PM
Maybe I missed it, but why didn't Marshall play? It seems he could have given Duke at least a little bulk, and of course, considerable height. With Coach K saying Mercer was so much bigger, I would think that Plum3 might have gotten at least a few minutes.

Yes, you missed it. He played a few (3) minutes.

DukeGrad
03-21-2014, 11:29 PM
Yes, you missed it. He played a few (3) minutes.

Was he outmatched? Or just not enough time to do much?

Henderson
03-21-2014, 11:44 PM
Was he outmatched? Or just not enough time to do much?

Not sure. But he's definitely not among the top 5 in talent at this stage. I'm not sure which big you sub him for. Amile? Rodney? Jabari? Probably not a good move on any of those fronts. I guess K could have tried to go big and play MP3 instead of Tyler, but Tyler is such a floor general/leader, and that creates a defensive mismatch with the second Mercer guard. Quinn was playing well tonight, so he had to be in there. And Rasheed kept Duke in the game the first half of the first half. Remember too that Josh only played 4 minutes, so it's not like he was the one who bumped Marshall out of minutes.

I think it was just a lack of reserve talent at the 4 and 5. And the fact that we didn't have a talented 5 available was a problem, as it has been in the past. Without one, we live and die by outside shooting, because teams pack it in and double/triple team whenever we're in the paint. Why did we win the natty in 2010? Well, a lot of reasons, but without the rise of Zoubs, it wouldn't have happened imho. So it's outside shooting for us. And let's face it: We didn't shoot well at all the last two games.

I haven't done any analysis, but I think shooting % correlates pretty well with points in the paint. Dunks and layups are easier than 15 foot jumpers. And MP3 is not a scorer. He might have played more of a defensive role, but again we're back to the question: Whom do you take out to play him?

CR9
03-21-2014, 11:53 PM
I agree. Our "bigs", other than Jabari and Marshall, are thin. So if you put them next to guys that are basically the same height, but have more muscle and thickness, they (the opponents) will appear bigger overall. And while I think Parker was willing to bang with the best of them, and that Amile also showed toughness, I too can see why some might have seen this version of the Blue Devils as a tad "soft." Not saying I necessarily agree with that sentiment. But I can understand it.

4 of their 6 'bigs' (if you're counting Rodney) are fairly, well, big. Josh, Jabari, Marshall and even Semi are big guys. Problem is, 3 (Josh, Semi, MP3) of those 4 average maybe 8 minutes a game combined. So they could be as buff as you like, if they aren't getting any burn, it doesn't matter.

duke96
03-22-2014, 12:23 AM
Hmm (http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2014/0321/ncb_u_duke-dejection01jr_600x600.jpg).

Nate Silver analysis.

KandG
03-22-2014, 12:42 AM
Like many here, disappointed but not really surprised at how the game ended. First year I can remember where the team with several of its earlier losses (and even some wins) set up expectations for a close game to be as excruciating and crushing as possible, so that when it actually happened, it was predictable in the extreme.

Few notes on the game itself:

1) Mercer's game plan basically dared our guards to win it with their shooting, and it almost blew up in their face. My only disappointment here is that Andre could never get his shot going. If he had made a couple, it could have established a more substantial margin that would have had Mercer on its heels. He had good looks, just couldn't drain them.

2) Jabari and Rodney were, as Coach K said, not good, but Mercer had a lot to do with it -- it almost looked like a triangle and two at times, they were doubling and tripling the two of them frequently, and making it difficult for them to make plays without forcing things. Was surprised Mercer threw a zone at Duke given how much better the team got at scoring vs the zone late in the season, but Mercer really choked off Hood's role as zone-breaker at the elbow, and marginalized him substantially.

3) Playing against a smart, veteran team like Mercer, maintaining leads means not squandering possessions. Duke hasn't been a turnover prone team (9.5 per game, one of the lowest in the country), yet the team had 8 turnovers in the last 22 minutes, half of which produced points for Mercer. The traveling violations on Amile & Quinn, the bad passes by Hood, spoke to how tricky Mercer's defense was and how well it kept the players outside of the paint.

4) It's forgotten now, but if Duke had won, everyone would have pointed to Tyler saving the game when it was 45-40 Mercer, making a three, then generating a turnover, missing a layup badly but diving on the floor to tap the ball to Sheed, who drew a foul and made 2 FTs to tie the game at 45. I know Tyler had limitations and maybe K overvalued him a bit, but that sequence is why so many of us loved him.

5) Haven't seen anyone mention that K noted after the game that Mercer's Gollon caused Jabari a ton of problems on defense, which is what probably prompted the offense-defense subs at the end of the game. Everyone on this board knows that Jabari has issues defending on the perimeter, and Gollon's movement & ballhandling was especially problematic. Jabari's going to be a 3 and/or stretch 4 in the NBA, so he really needs to grow in this area.

6) Not much to be said about the team defense beyond what everyone is saying. Have been watching tournament games the last 2 days non-stop, watching teams like UNC and Kentucky and countless others defend like crazy with less talent and/or very young teams. I know there are threads discussing this topic in more detail so I won't venture theories, but it was still jaw dropping watching a Duke team showing no strength on the defensive end for an entire game.

7) Despite Mercer being so well coached & well prepared and Duke's unfortunate pattern of droughts in the last 5 minutes, I still thought the game could be pulled off at 63-58, and at 63-60, I thought Duke's defense was good right until White made that killer 3 to tie the game. After that, the wheels came off.

Kudos to Mercer for a superb performance, sorry it had to end this way. I'll really miss the seniors and the guys leaving to play at the next level. Can't wait for next season with the killer talent coming in and another year of experience for the guys coming back.

tgotdamp
03-22-2014, 12:46 AM
This year Coach K resorted to more of an NBA-style offense - lots of one on one and isolations, very few set plays, very little movement. Even coming out of timeouts when you'd expect us to run a play to generate a good shot, we'd still come away with a rushed 3 or contested shot. I'm not sure if this was an attempt to cater to current and future players by preparing them for the NBA, if it's the influence of the National Team, or if he really felt that this was the best way to maximize our talent, but it was really odd to see so little "team" play and it certainly carried over to the defensive end.

This year had some high points but was disappointing overall, mainly because it never felt like we were maximizing our talent. Hoping for more balance next year and certainly a better finish to the season.

I concur with your assertion and as you suggest the NBA style offense doesn't serve us well. Kobe Bryant, whom has 10+ years of professional NBA experience, can flourish in this type of offense but hoping a teenage freshman can thrive in this style of play is a bit naive. While Jabari has some years of basketball under his belt, he hasn't been exposed to enough defensive schemes to instinctively know where to attack the defense. As a coach, it is your responsibility to put your players in a position where they could be most effective to the team as a whole. Coach K improved the team by developing Jabari's low-post game but the same credit cannot be given to K for Jabari's perimeter play. The lack of offensive sets combined with fatigue from battling down low is what killed Jabari's perimeter play and resorted him to taking ill advised jumpshots. Never knew why Parker-Hood did not run any screen/roll action all year. When I think of their talents, I have flashbacks of J. Will and Boozer. It was almost impossible to stop them. What could of been...

tgotdamp
03-22-2014, 01:08 AM
With roughly a minute left in the game, Coach K goes "DRE" signaling Andre Dawkins to get in the game. Wish he would of done that earlier considering they were running zone.

Now we had a lot of issues this year as many of you have touched upon but I think a larger problem exists. Duke has a lack of fundamentally sound players. We do recruit the fundamentally sound as I believe Murphy and Gbinige had this trait. However, I believe its a lack of developing these players into their full potential. It appears that if you cannot get up and run with the athletes, then you are not suited for Duke's offense. This rationale may make sense until you look at the DNA of our past championship teams where you had Bobby Hurley, Shane Battier, Mike Dunleavy, Kyle Singler, and Jon Scheyer. All these guys were fundamentally sound, a trait that this team lacked and does not look promising for next year. Variety is key for Duke and when you put all athletes on the floor that are not offensive liabilities, you take away a major component that has contributed to our prior successes. Doron Lamb was Kentucky's Mr. Fundamental when they brought in their laundry list of athletic freshman. Hopefully Cook can serve this roll for us next year as a 2-guard.

Henderson
03-22-2014, 01:15 AM
With roughly a minute left in the game, Coach K goes "DRE" signaling Andre Dawkins to get in the game. Wish he would of done that earlier considering they were running zone.


But K did use Dre earlier in the game. In 7 minutes, Dre went 0-5 with one foul, no assists, no steals, no blocks, and no rebounds. It's possible K didn't want more of that until it was desperation time and he needed to take a chance.

Turk
03-22-2014, 01:31 AM
Because Duke fans have jobs....

What about the students? We heard in the lobby that Duke did not allocate any tix for the students. Mercer was loud from the jump. They filled one section and they took over the gym. Then when the game tightened up, all the fans from the other teams started rooting for the underdog.

Billy Dat
03-22-2014, 01:33 AM
But K did use Dre earlier in the game. In 7 minutes, Dre went 0-5 with one foul, no assists, no steals, no blocks, and no rebounds. It's possible K didn't want more of that until it was desperation time and he needed to take a chance.

Very true, Dre had many chances to get going early - lots of clean looks - he couldn't knock them down.

eddiehaskell
03-22-2014, 01:48 AM
Few teams recruit better than Duke. But it seems clear that many teams these days either coach better or motivate better than Duke does.Which teams/coaches do you have in mind?

I certainly don't think K is above criticism, but here is the resume from the last 5 years:

'10 - Champs (35-5)
'11 - Sweet 16 (32-5)
'12 - First round exit (27-7)
'13 - Elite 8 (lost to national champs) (36-6)
'14 - First round exit (26-9)

During this 5 year stretch, K has lost 3 home games and no more than 5 conference games in a season.

How many coaches can top this?

Roy Williams hasn't been to a final four in the last 5 years. He even went to the NIT in '10.
Calapari has went to two final fours (winning one), but the same guy had two final fours vacated.
Brad Stevens went back-to-back and jumped to the pros.
Pitino has went back-to-back winning one.

I think coach K is still arguably one of the top 3 coaches in college. I also believe that he will hang it up when he feels he can no longer coach as well or motive his players. I remember back in '08/'09 when people were saying he had lost it or could no longer recruit - he then shut them up with a title.

NSDukeFan
03-22-2014, 08:55 AM
I re watched the game last night and am still having difficulty figuring out how the team lost, while shooting so well from 3 and rebounding so well. I have enjoyed reading the mostly reasonable posts (or as reasonable as can be for people are really sad about a sporting event, like I am). I had a good night's sleep and am done wallowing, if that's the right word for what I was doing last night. As an optimist, I always figured this team could get hot and play better focused team defence, but it never quite gelled. I agree with the others who have mentioned that there looked to be a lack of chemistry or it, but not because any players didn't seem like good guys or were selfish. We just didn't figure out how to best use the individual talents to form a fist. Some really strong fingers, but not enough to beat a fist.

duke96
03-22-2014, 09:26 AM
Hmm (http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2014/0321/ncb_u_duke-dejection01jr_600x600.jpg).

Nate Silver analysis.

Sorry bad link! Correct link here (http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/dukes-lehigh-loss-was-bad-but-mercer-was-worser/).

60's Devil
03-22-2014, 10:19 AM
Agree with most of this excellent post. All year a vast number of posters have noted our lack of lateral quickness at the guard position and our inability to penetrate. Journeyman guards like Clemson's Rod Hall could make us look bad. Admittedly Quinn had a good game but he cannot be the point guard of the future. He is out of position. As far as Mercer being bigger, later posts show this was not the case. Perhaps more muscular or tougher. With a stable full of McD's All Americans, denying that coaching is part of the problem is ridiculous and our young men should not shoulder the entire thing. Finally, thanks to Andre, who gave it his best, did not transfer, and will be long remembered fondly. Gary's post follows below:

"There were three big things that stood out to me for almost the entire year. None of these things changed, although admittedly two of the three things I'm going to mention are more difficult to change. The first was cohesion on both sides of the court. This, of course, not only can change as the year progresses but should change (for the better) as the year progresses. Yet it seemed to me we never really got better as a unit on either the defensive or offensive side of the court. Defensively we were limited by guards that simply don't seem to have the lateral quickness to stay in front of their man. In almost every one of our losses, and most of our close shave wins, we were carved up by opposing guards that could face up and blow past us. They got into the lane at will and caused havoc. And our help defense was never quite quick enough, or smart enough, to rotate and prevent easy buckets. In fact, I'm not sure when I can ever remember a Duke team that gave up so many easy buckets to their opponents. On the offensive side of the ball, we struggled to find an identity and really play as a unit. Too much of either Jabari, Rodney, or later in the season Rasheed having to make something happen on their own off the dribble. Heck, had Rodney not been so good hitting threes off a dribble or two, we'd have lost a lot more than we did. His ability to create just enough space to get a shot off on the perimeter was amazing - and needed. But the reality is we simply never gelled as a unit on either side of the ball.

Secondly, I fell like our PGs were lacking in one critical area offensively - dribble penetration in the half court. Neither Tyler nor Quinn, both of whom I love, really demonstrated they could do this consistently. Heck, they rarely showed that at all the entire season. Quinn did it a bit on breaks, but almost never once we were in a set. Rasheed, trying to channel his inner Nolan, took it upon himself to drive a good bit midway through the year. Sometimes he was successful and it paid big dividends. Sometimes he wasn't and it hurt us with turnovers or forced shots. As I thought about this loss, along with the recent outs to VCU and Lehigh, I realized that we've really been hurt by the lack of a quick, penetrating point guard most of the time. Other than Kyrie (for about 1/4 of one season), and the year when Nolan and Jon combined to play a very disciplined PG/SG role, we've been hurt by this lack. If we look at the starters at PG in those other seasons since 2006 it's been kind of lean in terms of a solid, quick, penetrating PG. And that's why I'm hoping that next season Tyus will bring that ability back to Duke basketball. Because let's face it - a quick PG with the ability to drive and either finish or dish covers a multitude of sins. If we are honest we haven't had many of those type PG's in recent memory (outside of Kyrie). I'm not getting on the guys that did play the position this year. They did what they could. Sometimes it's just about physical limitations and sometimes it's mental. But regardless of the reason, we need that type of player in the worst way, imho. I'm tired of opposing points being able to get into the lane at a much larger clip than ours.

Thirdly, I felt like size really hurt us this year and in this game. Coach K talked about it a little in the post-game presser. They were bigger/taller than us at almost every position. I do feel like we should have used Marshall more than we did this year (and today), but going forward I'm at least relieved that we should be in much better shape on this front. But make no mistake, it hurt us to be as small as we were in most of the games we played. Jabari played out of position most of the time. So did Jefferson, who did as much as he could throughout the year. But he's no center. And when we ran with Quinn, Tyler and Rasheed we were always going to be small. That's just a tough combo unless we are abusing the other team with quickness. And that was NOT happening when those three were in the game together.

I'll just wind this up by saying I appreciated the team this year (as always). They played their butts off. And I'll miss the seniors (especially Andre, who I hurt for most of all). Hopefully the team can gel better next year with more traditional parts (a true center and true, quick pg). The future is bright. Even brighter if Jabari stays. Hey, a guy can dream can't he? :)"[/QUOTE]

_Gary
03-22-2014, 10:34 AM
Agree with most of this excellent post. All year a vast number of posters have noted our lack of lateral quickness at the guard position and our inability to penetrate. Journeyman guards like Clemson's Rod Hall could make us look bad. Admittedly Quinn had a good game but he cannot be the point guard of the future. He is out of position. As far as Mercer being bigger, later posts show this was not the case. Perhaps more muscular or tougher. With a stable full of McD's All Americans, denying that coaching is part of the problem is ridiculous and our young men should not shoulder the entire thing. Finally, thanks to Andre, who gave it his best, did not transfer, and will be long remembered fondly. Gary's post follows below:

Thanks, 60's Devil. I'm just glad the site was able to remain open yesterday so that reasonable fans (I hope I can be considered one of them) could come here and share their thoughts, without flaming, and get the much needed therapy that this type of environment fosters after a tough loss. I know I needed it. And although I haven't moved off my 2 sporks for over a year now, it's nice to know that what I'm seeing is what others are seeing. And the only way that happens is if the board is open so that we can have reasonable discussion. There have been some tremendously insightful posts written over the last 16 or so hours, many of which echo my thoughts. It doesn't change what happened. But somehow it does help in dealing with the disappointment.

Thanks to everyone!

Saratoga2
03-22-2014, 10:46 AM
To say that Marshall was not capable of generating offense because he didn't score much when in games is missing the point that he has to be given the ball in scoring position. He had a couple of games where he showed he could dunk and if developed during the season he might have provided more. His free throw shooting form seemed to improve so I wonder if it was more of a coaches/players choice not to involve Marshall than a lack of talent. Semi got no chance at all. He is a terrific athlete and did show he could hit a mid range and a 3. He hardly ever got the chance. Clearly there were times when Rodney and Amile were in foul trouble or otherwise ineffective and could have been substituted for. Josh never really gave us a lot so we needed other options. Our best results seemed to come when we substituted liberally.

PackMan97
03-22-2014, 10:46 AM
I hate that you guys lost. Give Heels fans too much joy.

Though, as far as silver linings go, my wife is a 2002 Mercer Law School Grad and she hasn't been this interested in the NCAA tourney in the history of forever. So...thanks for that :)

TruBlu
03-22-2014, 10:52 AM
I hate that you guys lost. Give Heels fans too much joy.

Though, as far as silver linings go, my wife is a 2002 Mercer Law School Grad and she hasn't been this interested in the NCAA tourney in the history of forever. So...thanks for that :)

Don't mention it. Seriously, don't mention it!:p

I, for one, was pulling hard for the Pack.

dukepsy1963
03-22-2014, 11:19 AM
Moderators, this may need to go somewhere else, but I think it is relevant to the Mercer game and all the games we have played this year (and recent years too, for that matter)

Anyone want to start a movement to get rid of "one and done" somehow? I do graphics and could do T-shirts....:).

My feeling (like many folks) is:

either go right out of high school or
go to college with the idea of being there four years
don't recruit kids if they seem to view education as unimportant or a quick means to jump to the NBA and get tons of money immediately after high school....

I know, I know...it ain't going to happen, but I am so dismayed that colleges/universities buy into it for the sake of money (and the "one and dones" too; who wouldn't?)
Training athletes is fine, but I don't think that was the aim of most 'founders" of schools across this great land of ours.

I taught for 30 years at a couple of major universities and I saw this coming as time went on. I rarely heard the word or concept of "learning" mentioned by students.
But frankly, I did not realize how pervasive it would become.
Sorry to say, Duke bought into it too. And I am ashamed to say that in this regard, I rarely hear K mention academics at all! Correct me if I am wrong in any of this (I know you will...:).

I would rather have an guys who are less talented who hang around for awhile. In the military we called it, "dependability and honor." Give me less hype, and schools where there is more emphasis on recruiting students who take pride in being a real 'student athlete" and where money to be made, etc is not a primary motive and where their "next career" is not the primary topic of conversation/or the major reason they go to college/or recruited for, etc.

Of course, ESPN and host of other would hate this.

Come on, Duke!

Oh, I wish I could (as an old professor) talk to a few of the 'super players. But alas...that's just a dream..... and I would be up against an enormous wall of greed

Buddha was right, "greed is at the basis of most of the problems that humans have" and at the heart of the current motives for the idea of "one and done" too....

K/Duke, let's change things....be a model.... (That's a dream too)

jv001
03-22-2014, 11:59 AM
Moderators, this may need to go somewhere else, but I think it is relevant to the Mercer game and all the games we have played this year (and recent years too, for that matter)

Anyone want to start a movement to get rid of "one and done" somehow? I do graphics and could do T-shirts....:).

My feeling (like many folks) is:

either go right out of high school or
go to college with the idea of being there four years
don't recruit kids if they seem to view education as unimportant or a quick means to jump to the NBA and get tons of money immediately after high school....

I know, I know...it ain't going to happen, but I am so dismayed that colleges/universities buy into it for the sake of money (and the "one and dones" too; who wouldn't?)
Training athletes is fine, but I don't think that was the aim of most 'founders" of schools across this great land of ours.

I taught for 30 years at a couple of major universities and I saw this coming as time went on. I rarely heard the word or concept of "learning" mentioned by students.
But frankly, I did not realize how pervasive it would become.
Sorry to say, Duke bought into it too. And I am ashamed to say that in this regard, I rarely hear K mention academics at all! Correct me if I am wrong in any of this (I know you will...:).

I would rather have an guys who are less talented who hang around for awhile. In the military we called it, "dependability and honor." Give me less hype, and schools where there is more emphasis on recruiting students who take pride in being a real 'student athlete" and where money to be made, etc is not a primary motive and where their "next career" is not the primary topic of conversation/or the major reason they go to college/or recruited for, etc.

Of course, ESPN and host of other would hate this.

Come on, Duke!

Oh, I wish I could (as an old professor) talk to a few of the 'super players. But alas...that's just a dream..... and I would be up against an enormous wall of greed

Buddha was right, "greed is at the basis of most of the problems that humans have" and at the heart of the current motives for the idea of "one and done" too....

K/Duke, let's change things....be a model.... (That's a dream too)

I'm with you regarding the one and done. Let the kids that want to go pro, go ahead and play for the NBA. Let the kids that want to "learn" go to college, play basketball and get a good education. I believe Timothy said it best(I Timothy 6:10) For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. GoDuke!

CR9
03-22-2014, 12:02 PM
Which teams/coaches do you have in mind?

I certainly don't think K is above criticism, but here is the resume from the last 5 years:

'10 - Champs (35-5)
'11 - Sweet 16 (32-5)
'12 - First round exit (27-7)
'13 - Elite 8 (lost to national champs) (36-6)
'14 - First round exit (26-9)

During this 5 year stretch, K has lost 3 home games and no more than 5 conference games in a season.

How many coaches can top this?

Roy Williams hasn't been to a final four in the last 5 years. He even went to the NIT in '10.
Calapari has went to two final fours (winning one), but the same guy had two final fours vacated.
Brad Stevens went back-to-back and jumped to the pros.
Pitino has went back-to-back winning one.

I think coach K is still arguably one of the top 3 coaches in college. I also believe that he will hang it up when he feels he can no longer coach as well or motive his players. I remember back in '08/'09 when people were saying he had lost it or could no longer recruit - he then shut them up with a title.

Racking up wins in the regular season is well and good but the fact is, they haven't won the ACC in 4 years. They haven't won a championship in 4 years. Quite frankly, they haven't even close since then. He's underachieved greatly since the turn of the last decade. 3 trips to the Final Four (2 championships, mind) and 1 Elite Eight in the last 14 seasons. For as great a coach as he supposedly still is and with the talent Duke gets, that is woeful.

The one thing that has vanished, seemingly, is consistency. Duke hasn't been a consistent second week end team since JJ left. He had 2 Sweet Sixteen appearances, an Elite Eight appearance and a Final Four. Since then?

06-07: First Round
07-08: Second Round
08-09: Sweet Sixteen (Hammered)
09-10: Champions
10-11: Sweet Sixteen (Hammered)
11-12: First Round
12-13: Elite Eight (Hammered)
13-14: First Round

I'm sorry, 4 first weekend exits in 8 seasons is just unacceptable for a coach and team that prided themselves on consistency. You can talk about player turnover and youth all you want but the fact he hasn't adjusted to how the game has changed. The only time he's had success is when he completely changed his ways in 2010. He knew the limitations of that team and played to it's strengths. Since then, he's gone back to his one-track way of playing and thinking which hasn't been successful in a decade.

Also, looking at your records, the 2 times he actually made it past the first weekend was when he had a team dominated by upperclassmen. So, why can't he get the best out of the young talent he's had recently? Is his coaching just too rigid? Trying to teach too much too fast? Not scaling the complexity down for the youth? Whatever it is, it's coaching. Has to be.

Emerrick
03-22-2014, 12:12 PM
The scene was set for Dre to make his mark on the game at the end, but it just wasn't to be. I've loved watching that kid over the years and will truly miss him. His game wasn't there the back half of the season and I just have to blame that on the basketball gods (for whatever their reasoning).

It has been said already but we need a dynamic point guard to lead this team. Despite a good shooting performance, Quinn just didn't have it this year. With the new rules, it is imperative to be able to drive and get to the line. Repeatedly we couldn't do that. We need a great 3 point shooter, but we don't need a team of them.

Our collective expectations were set early and set high for this team. For me, this was one of the most exciting seasons to watch since the Jason Williams era. Unfortunately, it was equally deflating. I'm not at all surprised at the loss. Perhaps there is a silver lining in that Parker and/or Hood stay to fulfill their dreams of a championship. Regardless, this was a very entertaining year and I want to thank the team and staff for making it so. I just wish it hadnt ended early. Thanks for the heart, the class, and the flashes of brilliance. It was fun to watch.

If reality lives up to the hype, our team next year should be better even without Parker / Hood. Just b/c of a solid pg and big down under. I'm hoping to see an improvement on defense and court leadership. I expect sully to be our go to scorer. He improved considerably toward the end but handling the rock and running the point is not his forte.

May the basketball gods be kind to us in the offseason and give us an early present...

Til next year...

weezie
03-22-2014, 12:17 PM
Now that I have sort of recovered and accepted reality, I'll say one thing more: if I was the head of the NCAA I would never again allow games played on floors over ice rinks and to hell with the screaming venue managers. It's dangerous. I do not give a fig if it is not practical.

Furniture
03-22-2014, 12:19 PM
I just couldnt think of putting any blame the kids. Seeing them being interviewed in the dressing room afterwards so visibly upset was hard. Each with three or four mic's in front of them, hardly able to say a word without crying. Tough. These kids really wanted to win this.
In regards our offense if NBA set plays is what you call it I didn't like it. I am not a basketball expert and you may hate me for this but I think the neighbors down the road ran/run a must better O. Fast breaks, pushing the ball and not giving the other team any time to set up. If we could have done the same maybe things would have been different.

_Gary
03-22-2014, 12:19 PM
It has been said already but we need a dynamic point guard to lead this team. Despite a good shooting performance, Quinn just didn't have it this year. With the new rules, it is imperative to be able to drive and get to the line. Repeatedly we couldn't do that.

This is easily to me the elephant in the room, and has been for the majority of the seasons since the Jason Williams/Chris Duhon days. But very few folks here seem to agree. I'm getting almost no feedback when I bring this up. So I'm forced to assume many don't agree. Oh well, I think it's a big issue. Other than Kyrie, and a very intelligent and seasoned grouping of Jon/Nolan, we've been hurting at the PG position more times than not when it comes specifically to dribble penetration in the half court. It's just been lacking so much over the last 8+ years, imho.

jv001
03-22-2014, 12:27 PM
This is easily to me the elephant in the room, and has been for the majority of the seasons since the Jason Williams/Chris Duhon days. But very few folks here seem to agree. I'm getting almost no feedback when I bring this up. So I'm forced to assume many don't agree. Oh well, I think it's a big issue. Other than Kyrie, and a very intelligent and seasoned grouping of Jon/Nolan, we've been hurting at the PG position more times than not when it comes specifically to dribble penetration in the half court. It's just been lacking so much over the last 8+ years, imho.

Gary, you get no argument from me. I agree we have been lacking a true point guard type for a while. Jon played the point in , but it was Nolan that created offense with his driving to the basket. Quinn doesn't have that ability. I've heard that Tyus does, but how good is his defense? We know that playing time comes from being a good defender. Unless you're a superstar freshman like Jabari. I'm so hoping that Tyus can play defense and can generate offense at the point. I'm tired of watching the stand around offense with dribbling the air out of the ball. A good pick and roll would be nice as well. Quinn could never quite master the art of the pick and role. GoDuke!

Emerrick
03-22-2014, 12:29 PM
This is easily to me the elephant in the room, and has been for the majority of the seasons since the Jason Williams/Chris Duhon days. But very few folks here seem to agree. I'm getting almost no feedback when I bring this up. So I'm forced to assume many don't agree. Oh well, I think it's a big issue. Other than Kyrie, and a very intelligent and seasoned grouping of Jon/Nolan, we've been hurting at the PG position more times than not when it comes specifically to dribble penetration in the half court. It's just been lacking so much over the last 8+ years, imho.

Well, as you can tell from my post, I agree with you. I, too, believe it is our biggest problem. I love Tyler and his wojo-type fight and heart, but he wasn't able to lead the team offensively. Quinn's reactions were just too slow and he just couldn't stop other point guards. Hopefully, we'll see improvement from him over the summer. If his reactions at the presser are any indication, I'm optimistic at an improved Quinn. Hopefully, Tyus is the man people are suggesting he can be.

Udaman
03-22-2014, 02:59 PM
In my utopia world, Duke would come out and say, "from now on we are only signing kids who agree to play for at least three years. If you come you will sign a contract that says if you leave before that you owe duke 75% of your NBA contract. Duke will buy insurance in every player so that if they get a career defining injury they get 1M."

Never gonna happen but would love if it did.

Kishiznit
03-22-2014, 03:39 PM
The only thing as bad as our defense this year was our zone offense. Frankly, neither improved all year and after the Wake game where they zoned us for 40 minutes, we should have improved. The strategy of having our guards bounce the air out of the ball and eventually shoot a 3 that could have been taken 25 seconds earlier is a flawed one. It's frustrating to watch Florida pass the ball around and run set offenses to get good looks; that seems too easy.

mapei
03-22-2014, 06:28 PM
What about the students? We heard in the lobby that Duke did not allocate any tix for the students.

Wow. If true, that is truly sad. We have world-famous student support. We should have had at least 500 student tickets (maybe more?) plus buses to get them there and back. Has the AD and fan base gotten so blasé about Duke tournament games that fans don't even go when the game is practically next door? It was painfully clear that this game meant so much more to Mercer fans (including a rollicking student section), most all of whom had to travel hundreds of miles, than to Duke fans.

Edouble
03-22-2014, 06:53 PM
This is easily to me the elephant in the room, and has been for the majority of the seasons since the Jason Williams/Chris Duhon days. But very few folks here seem to agree. I'm getting almost no feedback when I bring this up. So I'm forced to assume many don't agree. Oh well, I think it's a big issue. Other than Kyrie, and a very intelligent and seasoned grouping of Jon/Nolan, we've been hurting at the PG position more times than not when it comes specifically to dribble penetration in the half court. It's just been lacking so much over the last 8+ years, imho.

To me, there's not just one elephant, but this guy is certainly in the herd.

bedeviled
03-22-2014, 07:48 PM
It doesn't look like this video is going to make its way to YouTube, so you'll have to click the link to Comcast Sportsnet Washington (http://www.csnwashington.com/video_content_type/coach-k-congratulates-mercer-its-win) if you wish to see a video of Coach K dropping by the Mercer locker room after the game to wish them luck.
The clip is very brief but is an excellent example of sportsmanship.

davekay1971
03-22-2014, 08:12 PM
Racking up wins in the regular season is well and good but the fact is, they haven't won the ACC in 4 years. They haven't won a championship in 4 years. Quite frankly, they haven't even close since then. He's underachieved greatly since the turn of the last decade. 3 trips to the Final Four (2 championships, mind) and 1 Elite Eight in the last 14 seasons. For as great a coach as he supposedly still is and with the talent Duke gets, that is woeful.

The one thing that has vanished, seemingly, is consistency. Duke hasn't been a consistent second week end team since JJ left. He had 2 Sweet Sixteen appearances, an Elite Eight appearance and a Final Four. Since then?

06-07: First Round
07-08: Second Round
08-09: Sweet Sixteen (Hammered)
09-10: Champions
10-11: Sweet Sixteen (Hammered)
11-12: First Round
12-13: Elite Eight (Hammered)
13-14: First Round

I'm sorry, 4 first weekend exits in 8 seasons is just unacceptable for a coach and team that prided themselves on consistency. You can talk about player turnover and youth all you want but the fact he hasn't adjusted to how the game has changed. The only time he's had success is when he completely changed his ways in 2010. He knew the limitations of that team and played to it's strengths. Since then, he's gone back to his one-track way of playing and thinking which hasn't been successful in a decade.

Also, looking at your records, the 2 times he actually made it past the first weekend was when he had a team dominated by upperclassmen. So, why can't he get the best out of the young talent he's had recently? Is his coaching just too rigid? Trying to teach too much too fast? Not scaling the complexity down for the youth? Whatever it is, it's coaching. Has to be.

Thank you for motivating me with this post.

I'm going to take your points one at a time.

First: 3 Final Fours and 2 Nattys in 14 seasons is woeful? You probably should have stopped there. Do some research for me and tell me how many other programs have had 3 Final Fours and 2 Nattys since 2001. As for Duke not having "been close" to winning a national championship since our last one in 2010...cry me a river. One of the more spoiled statements I've read in recent years.

Second: Hasn't adjusted his style of coaching/play? Are you serious? In what way did the 2009-2010 team's style of play resemble the 2010-2011 team's? In what way did the 2012-2013 team's style represent the 2013-2014 team's? Other than the man-to-man defense, not a whole heck of a lot.

Third: Give the man a break. In 2011, Kyrie Irving has a freak foot injury and returns just in time to play havoc with chemistry in the NCAAT. What if Kyrie is healthy all season? Or doesn't return at all for the NCAAT? In 2013 RK and Seth are both gimpy as hell. In 2012, RK is lost right before the NCAAT. I'll give you this season's NCAAT as a talented team getting bounced early without any excuses at all, but for the previous 3 seasons Duke has been snakebit with critical injuries that undoubtedly screwed up our NCAAT chances.

Fourth: Coaching youth - This is the only point you make that has any semblance of sense at all. I'm not sure if Coach K is totally comfortable building his team around the youngest talent. He's definitely achieved the best post-season success in teams that had significant junior-senior leadership. Building teams around a freshman stud is a new experience for Duke, really beginning in 2010-2011, and it hasn't led to post-season success (caveat being the critical injury issues noted above). Coach K is arguably the best college basketball coach of all time, but it may be that building a team around youth isn't his strength. Given that he's a student of the game, I'll bet he figures it out.

BlueTeuf
03-22-2014, 08:14 PM
No students? Two data points:

1. Our daughter is a freshman - said she didn't go to Raleigh because they had class. I think the academic schedule's pretty cramped right now with all the time off for snow/cold this semester.

2. I received the following email from the ticket office:

Dear Iron Dukes member,

Your Duke men's basketball team has been selected to play in Raleigh for the sub-regional rounds of the NCAA Tournament. As we have previously shared, no tickets are available through Duke to Iron Duke members due to high student demand. We would like to alert you to the official NCAA Tournament Ticket Exchange as an opportunity to obtain tickets. Find out more about the official NCAA Tournament Ticket Exchange here. Upper level tickets are also currently available through NC State and can be purchased here.

Thank you for your support and Go Duke!

-The Iron Dukes Team

I can't really reconcile these two points and - are we certain there was very little fan support?

FerryFor50
03-22-2014, 08:17 PM
No students? Two data points:

1. Our daughter is a freshman - said she didn't go to Raleigh because they had class. I think the academic schedule's pretty cramped right now with all the time off for snow/cold this semester.

2. I received the following email from the ticket office:

Dear Iron Dukes member,

Your Duke men's basketball team has been selected to play in Raleigh for the sub-regional rounds of the NCAA Tournament. As we have previously shared, no tickets are available through Duke to Iron Duke members due to high student demand. We would like to alert you to the official NCAA Tournament Ticket Exchange as an opportunity to obtain tickets. Find out more about the official NCAA Tournament Ticket Exchange here. Upper level tickets are also currently available through NC State and can be purchased here.

Thank you for your support and Go Duke!

-The Iron Dukes Team

I can't really reconcile these two points and - are we certain there was very little fan support?

Perhaps the localized Duke hate is simply insurmountable.

BlueTeuf
03-22-2014, 08:22 PM
Perhaps the localized Duke hate is simply insurmountable.

Yeah - it wouldn't surprise me if a good-sized Duke contingent was drowned out by an similarly sized Mercer contingent and about every other fan in the house. Duke-agnostics are a rare breed - and who wouldn't root for a 14 seed?

mapei
03-22-2014, 10:11 PM
On TV, the most obvious difference - and after this post I'll leave the issue alone - was that Mercer had a significantly sized student *section* of sorts, all sitting/standing and cheering together throughout the game. What blue-clad fans I saw were scattered throughout the arena, and few if any looked student-aged. I wonder if some Duke students sold their Friday tickets and were planning to attend on Sunday. Oops.

Ultrarunner
03-22-2014, 10:11 PM
In my utopia world, Duke would come out and say, "from now on we are only signing kids who agree to play for at least three years. If you come you will sign a contract that says if you leave before that you owe duke 75% of your NBA contract. Duke will buy insurance in every player so that if they get a career defining injury they get 1M."

Never gonna happen but would love if it did.

In my utopia world, the NCAA would declare that a scholarship counted for three years or to the normal matriculation point of the student-athlete whether the player was there or not. Five one and dones in a season? No problem but five less scholarships to offer over the next two years until they expire. If the player graduates in three years, there is no penalty year.

It would certainly spread out the talent and make a coach think long and hard on whether he was willing to lose three years of a scholarship for one year of playing time. And no need to play games with the NBA player's agreements.

Never gonna happen but would love if it did.

DRC
03-22-2014, 10:55 PM
I'm sorry, but this drives me crazy. As we've learned over the course of several years, we need senior leadership on the court in key roles. Whether Quinn can provide that is anyone's guess, but to rely on our recruits is a losing proposition unless, of course, we're talking about 3 or 4 years from now and they decide to stay.
I know, Rich. I was only trying to remain positive looking to the future after a disappointing finale to the season. We definitely need senior leadership on the court...ANY leadership and a true point guard. And as you say, it's anyone's guess whether or not Quinn will be ready for the roll next year. Let's hope he will be. I miss the inside presence of guys like Williams, Brand, and Boozer. Good Lord, Laettner stepped on players to make a point. Not that I support those actions, but that's when Duke had swagger and an attitude to dominate. And we did in '91 & '92. That collective 'attitude' is what I miss.

Duke_92
03-22-2014, 11:16 PM
On TV, the most obvious difference - and after this post I'll leave the issue alone - was that Mercer had a significantly sized student *section* of sorts, all sitting/standing and cheering together throughout the game. What blue-clad fans I saw were scattered throughout the arena, and few if any looked student-aged. I wonder if some Duke students sold their Friday tickets and were planning to attend on Sunday. Oops.

At PNC it was amazing how we were outclassed by the Mercer crowd. They really wanted it. They were very organized, excited and loud. I'm sure it helped their team. Maybe as a fan base we are a bit complacent. We probably were the quietest of the eight schools there. It was a shame really. We failed the team in that regard.

Furniture
03-23-2014, 01:13 AM
At PNC it was amazing how we were outclassed by the Mercer crowd. They really wanted it. They were very organized, excited and loud. I'm sure it helped their team. Maybe as a fan base we are a bit complacent. We probably were the quietest of the eight schools there. It was a shame really. We failed the team in that regard.

It really was the same as the previous week in GSO. Lots of blue scattered around but much quieter than the other team fans...

uh_no
03-23-2014, 01:25 AM
It really was the same as the previous week in GSO. Lots of blue scattered around but much quieter than the other team fans...

at least for this game, i feel i can provide some perspective to why duke fans didn't show up....especially as a duke fan that didn't show up

it's simple, ticket prices. I wasn't about to shell out hundreds of dollars that only has a few possible outcomes:

1) we win big, that's a big price to watch us blowout someone over matched
2we don't win big, which means that given the quality of the opponent, we were not playing very well. they're 81 in kenpom...1 off NCCU...for a team as good as we hoped duke was, they had no business being in a close game with mercer, and whiel a good game is exciting, paying hundreds to watch duke play poorly is not.

could going to the game affect the environment, and potentially the outcome? absolutely. but hey, tragedy of the commons.

so what it comes down to, is IMO people aren't going to shell out a ton of money to see duke play mercer, even if it is local. i'm sure i'll get some "not a true fan" junk, but I don't care. It's reality, and apparently enough of a reality that few duke fans showed up. I drove to indy last year to see us play msu and UL...i think that was a much better investment than tickets to yesterday's game would have been....we beat a very good msu team and lost to the eventual champion....

so why did mercer fans show up? well this is an opportunity they don't get all the time, and the *chance* to see mercer play well enough to beat mighty duke is much more worth the cost

TL/DR: people pay to watch games against good teams....despite being "senior laden" and what not, on the large, mercer is not a very good team.

tgotdamp
03-23-2014, 02:24 AM
But K did use Dre earlier in the game. In 7 minutes, Dre went 0-5 with one foul, no assists, no steals, no blocks, and no rebounds. It's possible K didn't want more of that until it was desperation time and he needed to take a chance.

I can sympathize for K pulling him out the game earlier but not putting him back in even after half time, I don't understand. When a player is off, you don't just shun him to the bench. Remove him from the game, allow him to recollect and put him back in with the hope that he has learned from his past mistakes. This surely happened with Parker on Friday as he was performing his brick mason duties. No knock to Parker as he had an off game. My point here is that one shouldn't be so quick to liquidate their assets when they're temporarily appearing to be liabilities.

dukelifer
03-23-2014, 11:32 AM
at least for this game, i feel i can provide some perspective to why duke fans didn't show up....especially as a duke fan that didn't show up

it's simple, ticket prices. I wasn't about to shell out hundreds of dollars that only has a few possible outcomes:

1) we win big, that's a big price to watch us blowout someone over matched
2we don't win big, which means that given the quality of the opponent, we were not playing very well. they're 81 in kenpom...1 off NCCU...for a team as good as we hoped duke was, they had no business being in a close game with mercer, and whiel a good game is exciting, paying hundreds to watch duke play poorly is not.

could going to the game affect the environment, and potentially the outcome? absolutely. but hey, tragedy of the commons.

so what it comes down to, is IMO people aren't going to shell out a ton of money to see duke play mercer, even if it is local. i'm sure i'll get some "not a true fan" junk, but I don't care. It's reality, and apparently enough of a reality that few duke fans showed up. I drove to indy last year to see us play msu and UL...i think that was a much better investment than tickets to yesterday's game would have been....we beat a very good msu team and lost to the eventual champion....

so why did mercer fans show up? well this is an opportunity they don't get all the time, and the *chance* to see mercer play well enough to beat mighty duke is much more worth the cost

TL/DR: people pay to watch games against good teams....despite being "senior laden" and what not, on the large, mercer is not a very good team.

The only advantage of playing in Raleigh for the team was the need not to travel. Duke is not going to get much crowd support until it gets down to eight or four teams.

weezie
03-23-2014, 01:44 PM
The only advantage of playing in Raleigh for the team was the need not to travel. Duke is not going to get much crowd support until it gets down to eight or four teams.

Sorry dukelifer, nice thought but it never happens. I go to plenty of games all over the place and we never get the crowd behind us. It has probably been mentioned in this super long thread but Duke also blew it by sitting the fattest cats/administration down low and the students in the back. Mickie Krzyzewski was our loudest cheerleader in Raleigh and she was all we had within 20ft of the court.

As anemic as the Duke support looked on tv, it was far worse in person.

Thank goodness Opening Day is in sight! I gotta get outside!

Emerrick
03-23-2014, 02:10 PM
Thank you for motivating me with this post.

I'm going to take your points one at a time.

First: 3 Final Fours and 2 Nattys in 14 seasons is woeful? You probably should have stopped there. Do some research for me and tell me how many other programs have had 3 Final Fours and 2 Nattys since 2001. As for Duke not having "been close" to winning a national championship since our last one in 2010...cry me a river. One of the more spoiled statements I've read in recent years.

Second: Hasn't adjusted his style of coaching/play? Are you serious? In what way did the 2009-2010 team's style of play resemble the 2010-2011 team's? In what way did the 2012-2013 team's style represent the 2013-2014 team's? Other than the man-to-man defense, not a whole heck of a lot.

Third: Give the man a break. In 2011, Kyrie Irving has a freak foot injury and returns just in time to play havoc with chemistry in the NCAAT. What if Kyrie is healthy all season? Or doesn't return at all for the NCAAT? In 2013 RK and Seth are both gimpy as hell. In 2012, RK is lost right before the NCAAT. I'll give you this season's NCAAT as a talented team getting bounced early without any excuses at all, but for the previous 3 seasons Duke has been snakebit with critical injuries that undoubtedly screwed up our NCAAT chances.

Fourth: Coaching youth - This is the only point you make that has any semblance of sense at all. I'm not sure if Coach K is totally comfortable building his team around the youngest talent. He's definitely achieved the best post-season success in teams that had significant junior-senior leadership. Building teams around a freshman stud is a new experience for Duke, really beginning in 2010-2011, and it hasn't led to post-season success (caveat being the critical injury issues noted above). Coach K is arguably the best college basketball coach of all time, but it may be that building a team around youth isn't his strength. Given that he's a student of the game, I'll bet he figures it out.


Thank you, Dave, for the thoughtful response. I couldn't stomach the exercise, but I'm glad someone brought forth a sense of reality.

CR9
03-23-2014, 03:12 PM
Thank you for motivating me with this post.

I'm going to take your points one at a time.

First: 3 Final Fours and 2 Nattys in 14 seasons is woeful? You probably should have stopped there. Do some research for me and tell me how many other programs have had 3 Final Fours and 2 Nattys since 2001. As for Duke not having "been close" to winning a national championship since our last one in 2010...cry me a river. One of the more spoiled statements I've read in recent years.

Second: Hasn't adjusted his style of coaching/play? Are you serious? In what way did the 2009-2010 team's style of play resemble the 2010-2011 team's? In what way did the 2012-2013 team's style represent the 2013-2014 team's? Other than the man-to-man defense, not a whole heck of a lot.

Third: Give the man a break. In 2011, Kyrie Irving has a freak foot injury and returns just in time to play havoc with chemistry in the NCAAT. What if Kyrie is healthy all season? Or doesn't return at all for the NCAAT? In 2013 RK and Seth are both gimpy as hell. In 2012, RK is lost right before the NCAAT. I'll give you this season's NCAAT as a talented team getting bounced early without any excuses at all, but for the previous 3 seasons Duke has been snakebit with critical injuries that undoubtedly screwed up our NCAAT chances.

Fourth: Coaching youth - This is the only point you make that has any semblance of sense at all. I'm not sure if Coach K is totally comfortable building his team around the youngest talent. He's definitely achieved the best post-season success in teams that had significant junior-senior leadership. Building teams around a freshman stud is a new experience for Duke, really beginning in 2010-2011, and it hasn't led to post-season success (caveat being the critical injury issues noted above). Coach K is arguably the best college basketball coach of all time, but it may be that building a team around youth isn't his strength. Given that he's a student of the game, I'll bet he figures it out.

1) UCONN and UNC both have 2 Championships and 3 Final Fours in the same span. My original point was consistency. From the 2000-2006, they were a consistent second weekend team. They didn't get 'upset' in the classic sense. Since JJ graduated, Duke has 14 wins in 8 tournament appearances. I looked up the numbers for the other usual suspects:

Duke - 14 - 8
Kansas - 23 - 8
Florida - 23 - 6
Kentucky - 14 - 6
Louisville - 17 - 8
Michigan State - 18 - 8
Carolina - 21 - 7
Ohio State - 16 - 7
Syracuse - 13 - 6

That's genuinely woeful. Greatly underachieving with the talent Duke recruits and supposedly having The Best Coach in Basketball (TM), wouldn't you say? If my statement is spoiled, then fine. Since I've been alive, all I've seen from Duke is success. 2 Championships, 4 Final Fours, 10 ACC Tourneys and 8 regular season ACC championships. Even then, you could make the case that 4 final fours in 20 years is underachieving.

2) This ties everything together, because every year they've had an early exit, K's had a young team. Like you said, either he doesn't trust the freshman/sophomores to run his team or he's tried it before (before my time, maybe) and knows it won't work. That's coaching. You have to adjust to the times. Times change, players change, rules change. As a coach, you can't be stubborn, you can't be rigid. He is, as we've seen with the defense. Duke teams have had the same weakness defensively for years; dribble penetration gets the bigs in foul trouble because the guards can't stay in front of their man. Squeezing the defense, packing the lane and making the other team shoot jumpshots was the recipe to success in 2010 and we haven't seen it since.

3) The Kyrie injury I will grant you. That team were heavy favorites to repeat and would've in my opinion but that happens. We're seeing it now. Embiid's injury hurt Kansas and Niang's injury is gonna hurt Iowa St. But an injury to Kelly the year after isn't an excuse to go out to a 15 seed. There's no excuse for that. Last year, I don't know. I felt Louisville were better (picked them in my bracket) but not 22 points better.

4) See 2.

NSDukeFan
03-23-2014, 03:30 PM
1) UCONN and UNC both have 2 Championships and 3 Final Fours in the same span. My original point was consistency. From the 2000-2006, they were a consistent second weekend team. They didn't get 'upset' in the classic sense. Since JJ graduated, Duke has 14 wins in 8 tournament appearances. I looked up the numbers for the other usual suspects:

Duke - 14 - 8
Kansas - 23 - 8
Florida - 23 - 6
Kentucky - 14 - 6
Louisville - 17 - 8
Michigan State - 18 - 8
Carolina - 21 - 7
Ohio State - 16 - 7
Syracuse - 13 - 6

That's genuinely woeful. Greatly underachieving with the talent Duke recruits and supposedly having The Best Coach in Basketball (TM), wouldn't you say? If my statement is spoiled, then fine. Since I've been alive, all I've seen from Duke is success. 2 Championships, 4 Final Fours, 10 ACC Tourneys and 8 regular season ACC championships. Even then, you could make the case that 4 final fours in 20 years is underachieving.

2) This ties everything together, because every year they've had an early exit, K's had a young team. Like you said, either he doesn't trust the freshman/sophomores to run his team or he's tried it before (before my time, maybe) and knows it won't work. That's coaching. You have to adjust to the times. Times change, players change, rules change. As a coach, you can't be stubborn, you can't be rigid. He is, as we've seen with the defense. Duke teams have had the same weakness defensively for years; dribble penetration gets the bigs in foul trouble because the guards can't stay in front of their man. Squeezing the defense, packing the lane and making the other team shoot jumpshots was the recipe to success in 2010 and we haven't seen it since.

3) The Kyrie injury I will grant you. That team were heavy favorites to repeat and would've in my opinion but that happens. We're seeing it now. Embiid's injury hurt Kansas and Niang's injury is gonna hurt Iowa St. But an injury to Kelly the year after isn't an excuse to go out to a 15 seed. There's no excuse for that. Last year, I don't know. I felt Louisville were better (picked them in my bracket) but not 22 points better.

4) See 2.

Wow! The seventh most tournament wins in a cherry-picked timeframe is woeful? Great Expectations?

CR9
03-23-2014, 03:34 PM
Wow! The seventh most tournament wins in a cherry-picked timeframe is woeful? Great Expectations?

I don't think it's cherry-picked. He's had his youngest teams since '06, and we've seen the results. It also could be worse. I only looked at, like I said, the usually suspects. I didn't check sides like Zona, Michigan, Georgetown, UCLA, etc.

_Gary
03-23-2014, 03:41 PM
Since JJ graduated, Duke has 14 wins in 8 tournament appearances. I looked up the numbers for the other usual suspects:

Duke - 14 - 8
Kansas - 23 - 8
Florida - 23 - 6
Kentucky - 14 - 6
Louisville - 17 - 8
Michigan State - 18 - 8
Carolina - 21 - 7
Ohio State - 16 - 7
Syracuse - 13 - 6



All I'm going to say is that this is a stat that has to make one pause. No question about that. But I think if you look at that span of time and then look at one key position on the court you've got at least one big piece of the puzzle. And I'm not downing the guys we've had, or still have, at this position. But I do believe that other than one season (Kyrie), and another magical one (2010) where we were able to acheive without it, the problem has been the lack of lateral quickness and the ability to dribble penetrate at the PG position. And I realize teams can win without this type of player. But not under our system as it is currently constituted and being implemented. And I believe that applies to both offense and defense. If we don't have guards that are fleet of foot and have the ability to face up and dribble drive into the heart of a defense I think we're going to be fighting an uphill battle every year. The Paulus years, God bless his heart, were the perfect example. We have to either do a better job at bringing players in that can function in our system, or change that system up at least a little (like we did in 2010 - with fantastic results, btw).

davekay1971
03-23-2014, 08:14 PM
1) UCONN and UNC both have 2 Championships and 3 Final Fours in the same span. My original point was consistency. From the 2000-2006, they were a consistent second weekend team. They didn't get 'upset' in the classic sense. Since JJ graduated, Duke has 14 wins in 8 tournament appearances. I looked up the numbers for the other usual suspects:

Duke - 14 - 8
Kansas - 23 - 8
Florida - 23 - 6
Kentucky - 14 - 6
Louisville - 17 - 8
Michigan State - 18 - 8
Carolina - 21 - 7
Ohio State - 16 - 7
Syracuse - 13 - 6

That's genuinely woeful. Greatly underachieving with the talent Duke recruits and supposedly having The Best Coach in Basketball (TM), wouldn't you say? If my statement is spoiled, then fine. Since I've been alive, all I've seen from Duke is success. 2 Championships, 4 Final Fours, 10 ACC Tourneys and 8 regular season ACC championships. Even then, you could make the case that 4 final fours in 20 years is underachieving.

2) This ties everything together, because every year they've had an early exit, K's had a young team. Like you said, either he doesn't trust the freshman/sophomores to run his team or he's tried it before (before my time, maybe) and knows it won't work. That's coaching. You have to adjust to the times. Times change, players change, rules change. As a coach, you can't be stubborn, you can't be rigid. He is, as we've seen with the defense. Duke teams have had the same weakness defensively for years; dribble penetration gets the bigs in foul trouble because the guards can't stay in front of their man. Squeezing the defense, packing the lane and making the other team shoot jumpshots was the recipe to success in 2010 and we haven't seen it since.

3) The Kyrie injury I will grant you. That team were heavy favorites to repeat and would've in my opinion but that happens. We're seeing it now. Embiid's injury hurt Kansas and Niang's injury is gonna hurt Iowa St. But an injury to Kelly the year after isn't an excuse to go out to a 15 seed. There's no excuse for that. Last year, I don't know. I felt Louisville were better (picked them in my bracket) but not 22 points better.

4) See 2.

At this point I'm not sure if you're a troll, or just wildly unrealistic about your expectations and genuinely disappointed. Certainly, if you're not a troll, you seem really upset with Coach K. If, as you say, your whole life you've known nothing but Duke success, then you're whole life must be within the time frame of K as the only Duke coach you've known. Talk about being a victim of one's own success (K, not you, since unless you've been a part of the team, you have no claim at all to any bit of the team's success).

I've also grown up on Duke being successful under K. Heck, when I was on Duke's campus getting my BA and MA, Duke went to 4 championship games and won 2. Starting in 1986, K and Duke went on a 9 year run that no school has come close to since UCLA's run. And that's not for lack of trying. Dozens of good basketball schools have gone through hundreds of coaches since UCLA's run without doing anything close to what K and Duke did in that run. It was so remarkable, that in the 20 years since, even K hasn't come close to matching that run. The 1999-2004 run was great, but still nothing like the 1986-1994 run.

So, I guess if you count the 1986-1994 run as your definition of Duke's expected level of success, then the last 10 years have sucked. Maybe you're thinking of the 1999-2004 run. If so, you're again measuring K against a level of his own success that very few other coaches have ever achieved.

You described the post-2000 K era as "woeful", but were able to name exactly two schools (which happen to be two of the most successful basketball programs in the post-Wooden era) that MATCHED K's NCAA tournament achievements...not exceeded, mind you...matched.

You described K as being rigid and inflexible. I'll grant you that he is pretty rigid and inflexible in his defensive philosophy, and people who follow Duke basketball can all site games in which that has been a problem (see King Rice looking like an all-ACC player against Duke). Of course, K was rigidly inflexible in his defensive philosophy from in the 1986-1994 run and the 1999-2004 run, and it was the same defensive philosophy, so that maybe isn't a fatal flaw after all. As for his offensive philosophy, you may be a bigger expert than I know, but some guys who know a bit about basketball (the last two Olympic teams, for example), universally praise his flexibility and willingness to adapt to the needs and talents of the team. I don't know your qualifications, but I'll take Kobe, LeBron, and Chris Paul at their word on this one.

You point out, rather mockingly, that The Greatest Coach in Basketball (TM) (and here's where I start wondering if you're a troll) should do better than 4 final fours in 20 years with the talent he has. I'd post out that at most schools they name arenas after coaches that go to 4 final fours and win 2 national championships over the same 20 year span you're deriding. Of course, the Greatest Coach in Basketball (TM) got to 10 final fours in a differently selected 20 year portion of his career.

We can play games on this all you like, but if you're determined to think K has lost it or is out of date or whatever, you're probably not going to be convinced of anything else. Fortunately for you, the man's probably in the last half-decade of his career, so if you can suffer through another few years of brutal coaching incompetence, you can live to see the glory days restored when he retires.

If you're a troll, you've been well fed. If you're hopelessly unrealistic and demanding, then you're convinced that I'm wearing Duke Blue shades and wearing an "I Love Coach K" t-shirt as I write this. Either way, good luck enjoying next basketball season. If you're honest and this disappointed and disillusioned in K, hopefully both you and I will enjoy watching Duke have much better post-season success next year (I feeling vindicated in my support of him, you pleasantly surprised that Duke managed to overcome his dottering incompetence).

eddiehaskell
03-23-2014, 08:37 PM
Racking up wins in the regular season is well and good but the fact is, they haven't won the ACC in 4 years. They haven't won a championship in 4 years. Quite frankly, they haven't even close since then. He's underachieved greatly since the turn of the last decade. 3 trips to the Final Four (2 championships, mind) and 1 Elite Eight in the last 14 seasons. For as great a coach as he supposedly still is and with the talent Duke gets, that is woeful.

The one thing that has vanished, seemingly, is consistency. Duke hasn't been a consistent second week end team since JJ left. He had 2 Sweet Sixteen appearances, an Elite Eight appearance and a Final Four. Since then?

06-07: First Round
07-08: Second Round
08-09: Sweet Sixteen (Hammered)
09-10: Champions
10-11: Sweet Sixteen (Hammered)
11-12: First Round
12-13: Elite Eight (Hammered)
13-14: First Round

I'm sorry, 4 first weekend exits in 8 seasons is just unacceptable for a coach and team that prided themselves on consistency. You can talk about player turnover and youth all you want but the fact he hasn't adjusted to how the game has changed. The only time he's had success is when he completely changed his ways in 2010. He knew the limitations of that team and played to it's strengths. Since then, he's gone back to his one-track way of playing and thinking which hasn't been successful in a decade.

Also, looking at your records, the 2 times he actually made it past the first weekend was when he had a team dominated by upperclassmen. So, why can't he get the best out of the young talent he's had recently? Is his coaching just too rigid? Trying to teach too much too fast? Not scaling the complexity down for the youth? Whatever it is, it's coaching. Has to be.Yes, Duke hasn't won the ACC is since 2011, but they did win it in 2009, 2010 and 2011. Duke played for the championship just this year. We've had a top-3 conference regular season record for what 27 of the last 29 years?

Narrowing down the time frame to a recent 4 year drought is sorta like asking - "what have you done for me lately?" Is that really a question you want to ask quite possibly the best coach in the history of college hoops?

If we analyze the last 14 years, it becomes even more silly. Since 2000, Duke has won 9 ACC championships (total domination), 2 NCAA championships and had a consistent top-10 national rank throughout just about every season. What more could one possibly ask for? Has any other coach led a program to more during this time?

Coach K has kept Duke right around the top of the basketball world for 30 years. I quiver in fear at the thought of not having K here the last 30 years. Part of what makes Coach K the best is consistency. Under K, Duke has never been irrelevant. Look at NC State over the last 30 years. What about UCLA over the last 30 years? Heck, in the last 15 years, UNC has gone 8-20 and went to two NITs. How many ACC championships does UNC have since 2000? TWO....TWO!!!! And this is probably the top blue-blood school.

We have been terribly spoiled by Coach K. I wish he could coach forever.

The NCAA tournament is a one and done format. It's silly to cherry pick a few years ('07, '12, '14) and judge a coach based on how they did in the tourney. Two sweet 16s (who cares about the score), an elite 8, 3 conference cham[ionships and a national championship in 8 years is not bad. Heck, as far as I'm concerned, 1 national championship is worth about 4 or 5 final four appearances.

eddiehaskell
03-23-2014, 09:22 PM
You point out, rather mockingly, that The Greatest Coach in Basketball (TM) (and here's where I start wondering if you're a troll) should do better than 4 final fours in 20 years with the talent he has. I'd post out that at most schools they name arenas after coaches that go to 4 final fours and win 2 national championships over the same 20 year span you're deriding. Of course, the Greatest Coach in Basketball (TM) got to 10 final fours in a differently selected 20 year portion of his career.I want to believe he is just a disappointed Duke fan caught up in the moment.

As far as final fours, I just looked up Dean Smith's record. During coach Smith's last 20 years, UNC went to 6 final fours and won 2 national championships. Now think of all the great players to play under Smith during these years! If coach K's 4 final fours and 2 national championships is bad enough to be mocked, I guess Dean Smith's two extra final fours would be enough to qualify him as a "slightly below average" coach. :D

lotusland
03-23-2014, 09:40 PM
I can sympathize for K pulling him out the game earlier but not putting him back in even after half time, I don't understand. When a player is off, you don't just shun him to the bench. Remove him from the game, allow him to recollect and put him back in with the hope that he has learned from his past mistakes. This surely happened with Parker on Friday as he was performing his brick mason duties. No knock to Parker as he had an off game. My point here is that one shouldn't be so quick to liquidate their assets when they're temporarily appearing to be liabilities.

Sheed and Cook were hitting threes so we didn't need Andre. The problem was defense and scoring in the paint and while Dre has improved in both areas, he's not better than Sheed, Cook or Hood.

CR9
03-23-2014, 09:56 PM
At this point I'm not sure if you're a troll, or just wildly unrealistic about your expectations and genuinely disappointed. Certainly, if you're not a troll, you seem really upset with Coach K. If, as you say, your whole life you've known nothing but Duke success, then you're whole life must be within the time frame of K as the only Duke coach you've known. Talk about being a victim of one's own success (K, not you, since unless you've been a part of the team, you have no claim at all to any bit of the team's success).

I've also grown up on Duke being successful under K. Heck, when I was on Duke's campus getting my BA and MA, Duke went to 4 championship games and won 2. Starting in 1986, K and Duke went on a 9 year run that no school has come close to since UCLA's run. And that's not for lack of trying. Dozens of good basketball schools have gone through hundreds of coaches since UCLA's run without doing anything close to what K and Duke did in that run. It was so remarkable, that in the 20 years since, even K hasn't come close to matching that run. The 1999-2004 run was great, but still nothing like the 1986-1994 run.

So, I guess if you count the 1986-1994 run as your definition of Duke's expected level of success, then the last 10 years have sucked. Maybe you're thinking of the 1999-2004 run. If so, you're again measuring K against a level of his own success that very few other coaches have ever achieved.

You described the post-2000 K era as "woeful", but were able to name exactly two schools (which happen to be two of the most successful basketball programs in the post-Wooden era) that MATCHED K's NCAA tournament achievements...not exceeded, mind you...matched.

You described K as being rigid and inflexible. I'll grant you that he is pretty rigid and inflexible in his defensive philosophy, and people who follow Duke basketball can all site games in which that has been a problem (see King Rice looking like an all-ACC player against Duke). Of course, K was rigidly inflexible in his defensive philosophy from in the 1986-1994 run and the 1999-2004 run, and it was the same defensive philosophy, so that maybe isn't a fatal flaw after all. As for his offensive philosophy, you may be a bigger expert than I know, but some guys who know a bit about basketball (the last two Olympic teams, for example), universally praise his flexibility and willingness to adapt to the needs and talents of the team. I don't know your qualifications, but I'll take Kobe, LeBron, and Chris Paul at their word on this one.

You point out, rather mockingly, that The Greatest Coach in Basketball (TM) (and here's where I start wondering if you're a troll) should do better than 4 final fours in 20 years with the talent he has. I'd post out that at most schools they name arenas after coaches that go to 4 final fours and win 2 national championships over the same 20 year span you're deriding. Of course, the Greatest Coach in Basketball (TM) got to 10 final fours in a differently selected 20 year portion of his career.

We can play games on this all you like, but if you're determined to think K has lost it or is out of date or whatever, you're probably not going to be convinced of anything else. Fortunately for you, the man's probably in the last half-decade of his career, so if you can suffer through another few years of brutal coaching incompetence, you can live to see the glory days restored when he retires.

If you're a troll, you've been well fed. If you're hopelessly unrealistic and demanding, then you're convinced that I'm wearing Duke Blue shades and wearing an "I Love Coach K" t-shirt as I write this. Either way, good luck enjoying next basketball season. If you're honest and this disappointed and disillusioned in K, hopefully both you and I will enjoy watching Duke have much better post-season success next year (I feeling vindicated in my support of him, you pleasantly surprised that Duke managed to overcome his dottering incompetence).

I'm turning 20 next month, FWIW. My earliest Duke memory was beating Michigan St in the Final Four in '99, because, living in Lansing, the riots that took place made headlines around here. So yeah, I'd say that 5 or so year span was the barometer and based on that level of consistency, most everything since has been disappointing to say the least.

I don't think I said post-2000 Duke as disappointing. I think I described post-2006 Duke (i.e. the last experienced team he had prior to 2010) as disappointing because it was. He's had young teams that floundered for the most part.

I can say definitively that the teams from 99-04 had MUCH better guard play than his recent teams have had which has always been the most vital (vitalest?) cog in the K machine. Those guards could defend well and penetrate which are 2 things K's guards since then haven't had in tandem. TT is an example; good defensively but a fairly anemic offensive game for a 4-year player. Rivers is the opposite; penetrated really well but wasn't a strong defensive player. If I can see that his guards can't extend their defensive pressure without getting burned off the bounce then I know he sees it but does nothing about it. He doesn't switch defenses. He doesn't back the pressure off. He just continues to let it happen. That's being rigid. Offensively, we've seen him be versatile. His last 3 teams have run 3 different offenses, from the naked eye, at least. You're right; I'd take Kobe, Paul and LeBron's word over mine as well. Offensively.

You constantly go back when bringing up how successful his late-80's early-90's teams were but that's another point about his rigidness; the game has changed since then. Nowadays, if a player is as talented as Bobby Hurley or Grant Hill, they're gone after a year, maybe 2. So you can't attempt to coach a team with youth and one-and-dones the same way you would a team full of upperclassmen, which he seems to do year after year. It's getting to the point where getting all these lottery picks is putting K in such a precarious position; getting super talents that are only gonna be around for year or getting 'solid', TT type 4-year players that can be coached up and thrive a few seasons in. I am by no means saying K should stop recruiting the mega-talents but a case could be made that he's still not comfortable with the idea.

davekay1971
03-23-2014, 10:34 PM
I'm turning 20 next month, FWIW. My earliest Duke memory was beating Michigan St in the Final Four in '99, because, living in Lansing, the riots that took place made headlines around here. So yeah, I'd say that 5 or so year span was the barometer and based on that level of consistency, most everything since has been disappointing to say the least.

I don't think I said post-2000 Duke as disappointing. I think I described post-2006 Duke (i.e. the last experienced team he had prior to 2010) as disappointing because it was. He's had young teams that floundered for the most part.

I can say definitively that the teams from 99-04 had MUCH better guard play than his recent teams have had which has always been the most vital (vitalest?) cog in the K machine. Those guards could defend well and penetrate which are 2 things K's guards since then haven't had in tandem. TT is an example; good defensively but a fairly anemic offensive game for a 4-year player. Rivers is the opposite; penetrated really well but wasn't a strong defensive player. If I can see that his guards can't extend their defensive pressure without getting burned off the bounce then I know he sees it but does nothing about it. He doesn't switch defenses. He doesn't back the pressure off. He just continues to let it happen. That's being rigid. Offensively, we've seen him be versatile. His last 3 teams have run 3 different offenses, from the naked eye, at least. You're right; I'd take Kobe, Paul and LeBron's word over mine as well. Offensively.

You constantly go back when bringing up how successful his late-80's early-90's teams were but that's another point about his rigidness; the game has changed since then. Nowadays, if a player is as talented as Bobby Hurley or Grant Hill, they're gone after a year, maybe 2. So you can't attempt to coach a team with youth and one-and-dones the same way you would a team full of upperclassmen, which he seems to do year after year. It's getting to the point where getting all these lottery picks is putting K in such a precarious position; getting super talents that are only gonna be around for year or getting 'solid', TT type 4-year players that can be coached up and thrive a few seasons in. I am by no means saying K should stop recruiting the mega-talents but a case could be made that he's still not comfortable with the idea.

Your last paragraph makes valid points. It would be interesting to hear what K determines about his coaching in the one-and-done era. It's certainly a different challenge than building players over the course of four years and assuming that your juniors and seniors will be your leaders. In 2001, Shane Battier and Nate James were two of the top six players on the team. While Jay Williams was the most talented player on the team, as a sophomore he had the luxury of Shane being the leader. And K had the same luxury, which was good because Jay Will was a mercurial talent, capable of being blistering hot and ice cold within the same game.

K is no more perfect than any other human. His whole career makes him The Best Coach of All Time (TM), or however you put it, but he is facing a new challenge in the post 2010 world. Guys like Rivers, Irving, and (maybe) Parker all come in as the most talented guy on the team for one year. You're right. Grant was the most talented guy on the 1991 team, but he and K both had Laettner there as the on-court leader.

I think it's ridiculous to call K inflexible because he hasn't won more in the NCAAT in the post-2010 years. As I noted earlier, 2011, 2012, and 2013 were all post-season runs that were deeply affected by injury. 2013 was an E8 appearance, so we'll just call that one a good run anyway. Since your thesis seems to be that K isn't adapting to the one-and-done world, I'm not looking at 2006-2009, as our problem with those years wasn't one-and-done talent...it was rebuilding talent.

I'm not ready to concede that K can't or won't adapt to one-and-done talent. Frankly, with Kentucky missing the tournament last year and Kansas already out this year, I'm not sure he's doing any worse than the other coaches wrestling with the same issues. As I noted, this season's team didn't have injury issues affecting the NCAAT, so basically this was a team that laid a big, fat stinking egg in the NCAAT (after an up and down season). But the other two years with one-and-done players prominent in earlier-than-expected exits (2011 and 2012) were hit right at tourney time with big injury issues.

We'll see how K manages the challenge next season. If you're right that the man is inflexible in his coaching approach and unable or unwilling to adapt to the challenge of coaching top flight young talent, then Duke is in deep doo-doo next year. I think his track record (yes, going back to those years before you were born which you feel are such ancient history as to be irrelevant...excuse me while I take my arthritis meds and metamucil) shows a man who studies his own failures constantly, learns constantly, and readily embraces new ideas and approaches. If I'm right, you and I will probably both enjoy the NCAAT in 2015 better than we have enjoyed this one.

Side note: thanks for sharing your age. One thing the last 23 years that have passed since I was your age have taught me is tons and tons of humility. Please don't take this point as condescending, because it isn't meant to be. But I'm in the middle of a demanding career and am reminded every day that, even though I think I'm pretty good at my job, I'm nowhere near as good as I would like to be, and there are plenty of people who are probably better than me. That gives me a tremendous amount of respect for someone, like K, who is in an extremely competitive job, and who has been the best, or one of the best, at that job for a long, long time. Bottom line, I'll never be as good at my job as K is at his. And that perspective gives me some pause in getting overly critical of him.

NashvilleDevil
03-23-2014, 10:55 PM
We'll see how K manages the challenge next season. If you're right that the man is inflexible in his coaching approach and unable or unwilling to adapt to the challenge of coaching top flight young talent, then Duke is in deep doo-doo next year. I think his track record (yes, going back to those years before you were born which you feel are such ancient history as to be irrelevant...excuse me while I take my arthritis meds and metamucil) shows a man who studies his own failures constantly, learns constantly, and readily embraces new ideas and approaches. If I'm right, you and I will probably both enjoy the NCAAT in 2015 better than we have enjoyed this one.



Excellent last couple of posts. Like everyone else I am interested to see how he works with next year's incoming talent. I have to think that getting back to the Team USA grind this summer will help him. I have no numbers to back this up but it seems that whenever K has Team USA obligations during the summer that Duke has started the season well.

CR9
03-23-2014, 10:57 PM
Your last paragraph makes valid points. It would be interesting to hear what K determines about his coaching in the one-and-done era. It's certainly a different challenge than building players over the course of four years and assuming that your juniors and seniors will be your leaders. In 2001, Shane Battier and Nate James were two of the top six players on the team. While Jay Williams was the most talented player on the team, as a sophomore he had the luxury of Shane being the leader. And K had the same luxury, which was good because Jay Will was a mercurial talent, capable of being blistering hot and ice cold within the same game.

K is no more perfect than any other human. His whole career makes him The Best Coach of All Time (TM), or however you put it, but he is facing a new challenge in the post 2010 world. Guys like Rivers, Irving, and (maybe) Parker all come in as the most talented guy on the team for one year. You're right. Grant was the most talented guy on the 1991 team, but he and K both had Laettner there as the on-court leader.

I think it's ridiculous to call K inflexible because he hasn't won more in the NCAAT in the post-2010 years. As I noted earlier, 2011, 2012, and 2013 were all post-season runs that were deeply affected by injury. 2013 was an E8 appearance, so we'll just call that one a good run anyway. Since your thesis seems to be that K isn't adapting to the one-and-done world, I'm not looking at 2006-2009, as our problem with those years wasn't one-and-done talent...it was rebuilding talent.

I'm not ready to concede that K can't or won't adapt to one-and-done talent. Frankly, with Kentucky missing the tournament last year and Kansas already out this year, I'm not sure he's doing any worse than the other coaches wrestling with the same issues. As I noted, this season's team didn't have injury issues affecting the NCAAT, so basically this was a team that laid a big, fat stinking egg in the NCAAT (after an up and down season). But the other two years with one-and-done players prominent in earlier-than-expected exits (2011 and 2012) were hit right at tourney time with big injury issues.

We'll see how K manages the challenge next season. If you're right that the man is inflexible in his coaching approach and unable or unwilling to adapt to the challenge of coaching top flight young talent, then Duke is in deep doo-doo next year. I think his track record (yes, going back to those years before you were born which you feel are such ancient history as to be irrelevant...excuse me while I take my arthritis meds and metamucil) shows a man who studies his own failures constantly, learns constantly, and readily embraces new ideas and approaches. If I'm right, you and I will probably both enjoy the NCAAT in 2015 better than we have enjoyed this one.

I call him inflexible because the same defensive problems have been prevalent on every team post-2010 (which strangely played the type of D they should be playing now). This season, when an abundance of schools implemented some type of zone defense in an attempt to adjust to the new rules, K did not. Perhaps he was just testing the waters to see how proficient referees would be in enforcing the new rules, but after 20 or so games you should know how games will be called and adjust accordingly.

I still think fingering the Kelly injury as the reason Duke lost to Lehigh is a reach. I'm still bitter about that. Couldn't believe it.

I don't think his accomplishments before my time are irrelevant but aren't liable for comparison because as we've stated, the game has changed and it would be interesting to find out if he still studies as much as you say he did now as opposed to then. With him having international duty and obviously age catching up to him, maybe he doesn't study and learn as much as he used to?

pfrduke
03-23-2014, 11:02 PM
I think it's ridiculous to call K inflexible because he hasn't won more in the NCAAT in the post-2010 years. As I noted earlier, 2011, 2012, and 2013 were all post-season runs that were deeply affected by injury. 2013 was an E8 appearance, so we'll just call that one a good run anyway. Since your thesis seems to be that K isn't adapting to the one-and-done world, I'm not looking at 2006-2009, as our problem with those years wasn't one-and-done talent...it was rebuilding talent.

As someone who's been around here for a while, it's amusing to me to contrast the posts after 2009 (at the end of the 2007-2009 period) and after this season (at the end of the 2012-2014 period).

In 2009, the discussion was all about how K lost a step in recruiting, couldn't get top flight talent anymore (and certainly couldn't compete with the guy down the road for that talent), and needed, NEEDED, to be bringing in one and dones to compete for NCAA titles.

Now, the discussion is all about how K lost a step in coaching because he can't coach one and done talent to the kind of team performance that his system demands and needs to stop recruiting one and dones and get back to 3-4 year guys (but 3-4 year guys who will be lottery picks at the end of those three years).

We're a tough bunch to please.

(by the way, Dave, I know you're not the one making these points, but your discussion of the contrast in periods was a good point to use for the observation)

davekay1971
03-23-2014, 11:18 PM
I don't think his accomplishments before my time are irrelevant but aren't liable for comparison because as we've stated, the game has changed and it would be interesting to find out if he still studies as much as you say he did now as opposed to then. With him having international duty and obviously age catching up to him, maybe he doesn't study and learn as much as he used to?

The international duty has been cited by several people with good information and long-term relationships with K as being experiences from which K has learned tremendously. So, I think it's unlikely that the national team coaching has impaired is learning and growth as a coach. As for age reducing his studying and learning, that tells me you don't work with many people in their 60s. In my field, my colleagues in their 60s tend to be voracious learners.

Kfanarmy
03-24-2014, 11:30 AM
The international duty has been cited by several people with good information and long-term relationships with K as being experiences from which K has learned tremendously. So, I think it's unlikely that the national team coaching has impaired is learning and growth as a coach. As for age reducing his studying and learning, that tells me you don't work with many people in their 60s. In my field, my colleagues in their 60s tend to be voracious learners. I am of the belief that Coach K learned a great deal during his international "duty." Unfortunately, I'm not so sure that all of what he has translated to his College "duty" should have been. His olympic success, and the sort of unscripted offense he has run have been enabled by ultra talented and fully developed NBA players. In contrast, he has tried to implement that offense on teams that have a minority of inexperienced NBA-level potential. The great difference is that the international team can generally score from every position when the chips are down, which makes it very difficult to guard. This offense struggles in the college game when it runs into a stiff defense, because it is predicated on a couple of talented guys making it up as they go, rather than 5 players working as a team IMO.

CDu
03-24-2014, 12:03 PM
I am of the belief that Coach K learned a great deal during his international "duty." Unfortunately, I'm not so sure that all of what he has translated to his College "duty" should have been. His olympic success, and the sort of unscripted offense he has run have been enabled by ultra talented and fully developed NBA players. In contrast, he has tried to implement that offense on teams that have a minority of inexperienced NBA-level potential. The great difference is that the international team can generally score from every position when the chips are down, which makes it very difficult to guard. This offense struggles in the college game when it runs into a stiff defense, because it is predicated on a couple of talented guys making it up as they go, rather than 5 players working as a team IMO.

I agree with this. I think the commitment to USA basketball has helped in a number of ways, not the least of which has been recruiting. But in terms of offense, I don't think working with the NBA elites has helped him with the college game. As you note, it's a much different animal running an offense and a defense with the absolute best players in the world against (primarily) less talented teams. It's another thing to implement those same principles with less experienced and less talented players.

One way in which the Team USA experience MAY help is with the challenge of building a team quickly and finding chemistry. But again, the overall talent level of the USA (especially at the top with guys like James, Wade, Bryant, and Anthony) may have masked some issues with the process.

I have no doubt, however, that the staff will seriously re-evaluate everything that they're doing over this offseason. I suspect that Coach K realizes that next year may represent his last "best" chance at a title. And I'm quite sure he isn't going to skimp on effort in trying to make that a reality.

KenTankerous
03-25-2014, 05:03 PM
I don't have any deep analysis to add but have enjoyed reading this thread. In contrast to what I am and will be reading and hearing this weekend here in Louisville, no matter the victors, DBR is more of a blessing than ever.

I do have to tell y'all what I dealt with after the loss. I'm a caregiver at a long-term care and rehab center. Saturday morning, all of my residents had but one clean outfit in their closets - sweat pants and Mercer T-shirts! Mercer trucking company is based here in Louisville and one of the laundry workers knows a guy there so I had to dress all my peeps in Mercer shirts for breakfast.

They all changed before lunch...

MCFinARL
03-25-2014, 06:17 PM
I don't have any deep analysis to add but have enjoyed reading this thread. In contrast to what I am and will be reading and hearing this weekend here in Louisville, no matter the victors, DBR is more of a blessing than ever.

I do have to tell y'all what I dealt with after the loss. I'm a caregiver at a long-term care and rehab center. Saturday morning, all of my residents had but one clean outfit in their closets - sweat pants and Mercer T-shirts! Mercer trucking company is based here in Louisville and one of the laundry workers knows a guy there so I had to dress all my peeps in Mercer shirts for breakfast.

They all changed before lunch...

That's actually pretty funny--though a hard morning for you, I'm sure. :D

weezie
03-25-2014, 06:33 PM
That's actually pretty funny--though a hard morning for you, I'm sure. :D

Sounds like a Wes Anderson movie.

SoCalDukeFan
03-25-2014, 07:00 PM
I agree with this. I think the commitment to USA basketball has helped in a number of ways, not the least of which has been recruiting. But in terms of offense, I don't think working with the NBA elites has helped him with the college game. As you note, it's a much different animal running an offense and a defense with the absolute best players in the world against (primarily) less talented teams. It's another thing to implement those same principles with less experienced and less talented players.

One way in which the Team USA experience MAY help is with the challenge of building a team quickly and finding chemistry. But again, the overall talent level of the USA (especially at the top with guys like James, Wade, Bryant, and Anthony) may have masked some issues with the process.

I have no doubt, however, that the staff will seriously re-evaluate everything that they're doing over this offseason. I suspect that Coach K realizes that next year may represent his last "best" chance at a title. And I'm quite sure he isn't going to skimp on effort in trying to make that a reality.

I am really conflicted as to whether or not K's commitment to USA Basketball is good for Duke. It was ok for me the first time, I was against it the second time but then ate my words when we won the NC in 2010, and am now conflicted the 3rd time.

I certainly understand that it provides a different challenge and change that in some ways reinvigorated Coach K. While things change 34 years is a long time on the job and so if that challenge helps keep him coaching at Duke then great. I am also certain that there are things that he learned that helped at Duke.

But as others have pointed out, coaching a team of the best in the world is not the same as coaching college players.

My bigger problem is the time commitment. I would expect that most college coaches with the talent Duke had that just lost to Mercer in the first round of the NCAA Tournament would be spending days and days trying to figure out what went wrong. (I know he can save a lot of time and just read DBR forums and get it from us experts but don't think that is the right approach.) And then spend day and days working with the staff to figure out what to do to fix it in the future. Instead K and much of the staff will be Spain and elsewhere involved with USA Basketball.

I appreciate what K does for USA basketball and was fortunate to be at the Gold Medal game in London. I know it helps in recruiting. Just not sure that overall it has been good for Duke basketball.

SoCal

LobstersPinchPinch
03-25-2014, 07:59 PM
I appreciate what K does for USA basketball and was fortunate to be at the Gold Medal game in London. I know it helps in recruiting. Just not sure that overall it has been good for Duke basketball.

SoCal

Agree that his participation probably helps with recruiting. But also believe that he may be drawing the wrong conclusions about the implications on Duke basketball of his Olympic experiences. Coaching a group of players who are head and shoulders better than their competitors, in some ways there's nothing a coach can do and not be successful. Instead of saying we'd play without established positions (or running a pro-style offense, etc.), K could just as well concluded that the key to the Olympics success was the uniforms. The latter conclusion would have been harmless to our performance this year; the former, perhaps not.

At the beginning of the year, Coach K said we had a chance to be a great team, and that if we weren't, serious questions would be asked. My fear is that the "we had a good season" comment was heartfelt. On the other hand, if it was an attempt at being positive/supportive, if he and the assistants are as embarrassed as the rest of us about how this season ended, then I'm more comfortable that we won't make the same mistakes this coming year.

Troublemaker
03-25-2014, 08:55 PM
Agree that his participation probably helps with recruiting. But also believe that he may be drawing the wrong conclusions about the implications on Duke basketball of his Olympic experiences. Coaching a group of players who are head and shoulders better than their competitors, in some ways there's nothing a coach can do and not be successful. Instead of saying we'd play without established positions (or running a pro-style offense, etc.), K could just as well concluded that the key to the Olympics success was the uniforms. The latter conclusion would have been harmless to our performance this year; the former, perhaps not.

I'm sure Coach K understands the difference in capabilities between an NBA superstar and a college player.



At the beginning of the year, Coach K said we had a chance to be a great team, and that if we weren't, serious questions would be asked. My fear is that the "we had a good season" comment was heartfelt. On the other hand, if it was an attempt at being positive/supportive, if he and the assistants are as embarrassed as the rest of us about how this season ended, then I'm more comfortable that we won't make the same mistakes this coming year.

I'm sure Coach K and his staff took the loss much harder than you, a measly fan.

NashvilleDevil
03-25-2014, 09:22 PM
Agree that his participation probably helps with recruiting. But also believe that he may be drawing the wrong conclusions about the implications on Duke basketball of his Olympic experiences. Coaching a group of players who are head and shoulders better than their competitors, in some ways there's nothing a coach can do and not be successful. Instead of saying we'd play without established positions (or running a pro-style offense, etc.), K could just as well concluded that the key to the Olympics success was the uniforms. The latter conclusion would have been harmless to our performance this year; the former, perhaps not.

At the beginning of the year, Coach K said we had a chance to be a great team, and that if we weren't, serious questions would be asked. My fear is that the "we had a good season" comment was heartfelt. On the other hand, if it was an attempt at being positive/supportive, if he and the assistants are as embarrassed as the rest of us about how this season ended, then I'm more comfortable that we won't make the same mistakes this coming year.

Why do you have a problem with him saying it was a good season? Losing in the opening round sucked but overall it was a pretty good season. He knows the kids put forth the effort and while it was not good enough on Friday he would never tell the kids in that locker room or the media that he is embarrassed by a loss. Also as a fan I was not embarrassed by the loss, you may have been, but I was not. I was upset and wallowed for a little bit on Friday afternoon but I have never been embarrassed when Duke loses.

LobstersPinchPinch
03-25-2014, 10:46 PM
Why do you have a problem with him saying it was a good season? Losing in the opening round sucked but overall it was a pretty good season. He knows the kids put forth the effort and while it was not good enough on Friday he would never tell the kids in that locker room or the media that he is embarrassed by a loss. Also as a fan I was not embarrassed by the loss, you may have been, but I was not. I was upset and wallowed for a little bit on Friday afternoon but I have never been embarrassed when Duke loses.

Fair enough. We may have had different expectations for the season, or I may be more critical than you.

-jk
03-25-2014, 10:49 PM
Fair enough. We may have had different expectations for the season, or I may be more critical than you.

I feel so sorry for K's successor.

-jk

Duvall
03-25-2014, 11:05 PM
Why do you have a problem with him saying it was a good season? Losing in the opening round sucked but overall it was a pretty good season. He knows the kids put forth the effort and while it was not good enough on Friday he would never tell the kids in that locker room or the media that he is embarrassed by a loss. Also as a fan I was not embarrassed by the loss, you may have been, but I was not. I was upset and wallowed for a little bit on Friday afternoon but I have never been embarrassed when Duke loses.

I mean, would you rather Krzyzewski have spent the postgame press conference pouting and daring kids to transfer, like Calipari did after the Robert Morris loss last season? What good would that have done anyone?

wallyman
03-25-2014, 11:11 PM
Why do you have a problem with him saying it was a good season? Losing in the opening round sucked but overall it was a pretty good season. He knows the kids put forth the effort and while it was not good enough on Friday he would never tell the kids in that locker room or the media that he is embarrassed by a loss. Also as a fan I was not embarrassed by the loss, you may have been, but I was not. I was upset and wallowed for a little bit on Friday afternoon but I have never been embarrassed when Duke loses.


I'm always impressed by the attempts to stay classy and upbeat on this board, even in the face of unfortunate results. But it's hard to imagine a Duke fan who was not embarrassed by that loss -- coming two years after a similarly disastrous first round loss. No offense meant to the great kids on the team who played their heart out. But really, to get humiliated, yet again, by a third tier team, who resorted to form the next time out playing another double digit seed? All the hatred Duke gets is predicated on being some kind of scary, juggernaut. And for our spending, our hype and our recruiting we should be. But for a decade, save for 2010, in the tournament we haven't been close. Being hated for being a winner is ok. Being hated and repeatedly choking? Not so much. Great kids. They played hard and feel worse than the fans do. I appreciate all of them and wish them all the best. But an embarrassing loss? I'm afraid it was.

CDu
03-25-2014, 11:33 PM
Why do you have a problem with him saying it was a good season? Losing in the opening round sucked but overall it was a pretty good season. He knows the kids put forth the effort and while it was not good enough on Friday he would never tell the kids in that locker room or the media that he is embarrassed by a loss. Also as a fan I was not embarrassed by the loss, you may have been, but I was not. I was upset and wallowed for a little bit on Friday afternoon but I have never been embarrassed when Duke loses.

Coach K himself was talking about possibly hanging banners this season (prior to the season). So I think relative to the expectations (given the talent and given that it is Coach K) it is hard to argue this was a good season.

Relative to the other 330+ teams in D-1? Sure. It was a good season. But I can't imagine that Coach K would want to just be compared to the average D-1 school. He has spent his career building a legacy of excellence. And his excellence has resulted in a wealth of talent on the roster. So with that wealth of talent and with Coach's history of greatness comes a higher bar for "good."

I am quite sure that, in private, Coach would admit that this season was disappointing. But he is not going to say that to the media.

NashvilleDevil
03-26-2014, 12:19 AM
Coach K himself was talking about possibly hanging banners this season (prior to the season). So I think relative to the expectations (given the talent and given that it is Coach K) it is hard to argue this was a good season.

Relative to the other 330+ teams in D-1? Sure. It was a good season. But I can't imagine that Coach K would want to just be compared to the average D-1 school. He has spent his career building a legacy of excellence. And his excellence has resulted in a wealth of talent on the roster. So with that wealth of talent and with Coach's history of greatness comes a higher bar for "good."

I am quite sure that, in private, Coach would admit that this season was disappointing. But he is not going to say that to the media.

He would probably say that it was disappointing but the poster wanted K to be embarrassed for losing to mercer like he was embarrassed. I just do not think K would ever be embarrassed by a loss because he would never want to make any of those kids feel any worse.

CDu
03-26-2014, 12:27 AM
He would probably say that it was disappointing but the poster wanted K to be embarrassed for losing to mercer like he was embarrassed. I just do not think K would ever be embarrassed by a loss because he would never want to make any of those kids feel any worse.

I am sure Coach K has been embarrased by losses. He would never say it publicly, but I am absolutely positive that he has been embarrassed by losses. There is a difference between being embarrassed and actually saying you are embarrassed.

SoCalDukeFan
03-26-2014, 12:49 AM
I think Coach K tried hard not to take anything away from Mercer. They played great and deserved to win. For him to say he was embarrassed would somehow imply that it was more Duke lost rather than Mercer won.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. We had some successes, defended our home court. The team played very hard most games and all of the games at the end. Coach K had to deal with an unexpected death in his family.

I am sure Coach K and staff know that they did not get the most out of the talent. They also had no major injury. I doubt if anyone can claim that losing Alex Murphy was a big factor. I told some relatives who are big Duke fans that this year would either be one of K's best or one of his worst. I think its the latter. He has said that they will make adjustments. Looking forward to next year.

SoCal