UVA/Duke: just the facts

[tobers]

I researched the box scores from the last 10 ACC championship games, as well as the last 10 national championship games, looking at FTAs and PFs. These look better in a table, but here are the raw facts:

Last 10 ACC Championships

2004/Maryland-Duke/FTA 44-31/∆ 13/PF 23-31/∆ 8
2005/Duke-GaTech/FTA 33-22/∆ 11/PF 21-27/∆ 6
2006/Duke-BostonCol/FTA 29-17/∆ 12/PF 17-22/ ∆ 5
2007/UNC-NCState/FTA 24-19/∆ 5/PF 19-18/∆ 1
2008/UNC-Clemson/FTA 24-26 ∆ 2/PF 22-20/∆ 2
2009/Duke-FSU/FTA 26-19/∆ 7/PF 20-25/∆ 5
2010/Duke-GaTech/FTA 28-16/∆ 12/PF17-20/∆ 3
2011/Duke-UNC/FTA 15-21/∆ 6/PF 20-16/∆ 4
2012/FSU-UNC/FTA 11-24/∆ 13/PF14-19/∆ 5
2013/Miami-UNC/FTA 20-11/∆ 9/PF 10-18/∆ 8

Last 10 National Championships

2004/UConn-GaTech/FTA 39-21/∆18/PF 18-26/∆ 8
2005/UNC-Illinois/FTA 19-6/∆ 13/PF 18-13/∆ 5
2006/UF-UCLA/FTA 20-14/∆ 6/PF 13-22/∆ 9
2007/UF-OhioSt/FTA 25-17/∆ 8/PF 19-20/∆ 1
2008/Ku-Memphis/FTA15-19/∆ 4/PF 18-17/∆ 1
2009/UNC-MSU/FTA 40-29/∆ 11/PF 22-28/∆ 6
2010/Duke-Butler/FTA 16-18/∆ 2/PF 14-18/∆ 4
2011/UConn-Butler/FTA 15-14/∆ 1/PF 16-17/∆ 1
2012/UK-KU/FTA 21-15/∆ 6/PF 15-16/∆ 1
2013/Louisville-UMich/FTA 23-25/∆ 2/PF 22-15/∆ 7

1. If you look at FTA in the last 10 ACC championships, the greatest differential between teams is 13, and the average differential is 9.0. If you look at FTA in the last 10 national championships, the greatest differential between teams is 18, and the average is only 7.1. So the average FTA differential for these 20 games is about 8 attempts. The FTA differential for the UVA/Duke game was 27, or more than TRIPLE the average of these 20 games. With the exception of one game (2004 UConn vs GaTech) this number (27) was more than DOUBLE the differential of ANY of the 20 championship games.

2. If you look at PF in the last 10 ACC championships, the greatest differential between teams is 8, and the average differential is 5.1. For the last 10 national championship games, the greatest personal foul differential is 9, and the average is 6.1. So these 20 games averaged a personal foul differential between teams of 5.5 In the UVA/Duke game the personal foul differential was 13. This is 50% greater than ANY of the past 20 championship games.

So just by the facts, the UVA/Duke game on Sunday was indeed historic. No ACC or National championship game in the past 10 years has come remotely close to the differentials we saw on Sunday. It's not even close.

[bob blue devil]

I didn't realize we played the game with 5 Josh Hairston clones

[duke4ever19]

Great research. A job well done.

I know it is beneath the unwritten "good sport" code of conduct to complain about officiating, because, well, it is one of the most popular excuses fans adopt after a loss. But @#%$!

In other news. It is incredibly hard to believe Georgia Tech was in a championship game not too long ago.

[jipops]

But Duke gets all the calls so these facts don't matter.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

Great research. A job well done.

I know it is beneath the unwritten "good sport" code of conduct to complain about officiating, because, well, it is one of the most popular excuses fans adopt after a loss. But @#%$!

In other news. It is incredibly hard to believe Georgia Tech was in a championship game not too long ago.

Well, to be honest, the real championship game in 2004 was Duke Vs. UCONN in the Semifinals.

GTech had no chance of winning the championship that year.

[duke4ever19]

Well, to be honest, the real championship game in 2004 was Duke Vs. UCONN in the Semifinals.

GTech had no chance of winning the championship that year.

Agreed... ironic that the 2004 Final Four game is brought up in a thread about refs and questionable foul situations? :rolleyes:

[Furniture]

I guess I am not a good sport. It was daylight robbery!

[COYS]

Well, to be honest, the real championship game in 2004 was Duke Vs. UCONN in the Semifinals.

GTech had no chance of winning the championship that year.

Except for the fact that they had recently beaten Duke in Cameron near the end of the regular season. I think Duke was the better team that year, but the Yellow Jackets would not have rolled over for Duke.

[Edouble]

Well, to be honest, the real championship game in 2004 was Duke Vs. UCONN in the Semifinals.

GTech had no chance of winning the championship that year.

Really? They must have had some chance, as they had already beaten Duke and Connecticut in the regular season that year.

[DukeAlumBS]

It helps us to see what happened during the Duke/UVA game.
I wonder, do the refs review games they officiated when they are in question?
Does not change a thing but maybe educate them to do better?
This a big difference than I thought, especially after watching again yesterday.
Again, congrats to UVA on your win. Glad not Syracuse or Pitt for that matter.

Thank you

Jimmy

[jv001]

Personally, I think referees sometimes make up their mind before a play happens and thus make a wrong ball. Sometimes a ref seems to have a predetermined mind set against certain players. Such as Tyler and Josh. GoDuke!

[MCFinARL]

Personally, I think referees sometimes make up their mind before a play happens and thus make a wrong ball. Sometimes a ref seems to have a predetermined mind set against certain players. Such as Tyler and Josh. GoDuke!

Granted, certain players do develop a reputation for fouling, and that probably does influence refs whether they want it to or not (the same way studies have shown that grade school teachers often unconsciously favor students they believe to be smart and disfavor those they believe to be less capable or unmotivated).

But let's not go too far--Tyler and Josh also commit a lot of fouls.

[TruBlu]

Granted, certain players do develop a reputation for fouling, and that probably does influence refs whether they want it to or not (the same way studies have shown that grade school teachers often unconsciously favor students they believe to be smart and disfavor those they believe to be less capable or unmotivated).

But let's not go too far--Tyler and Josh also commit a lot of fouls.

Marty . . . er, Tyler and Josh don't foul!

[jv001]

Granted, certain players do develop a reputation for fouling, and that probably does influence refs whether they want it to or not (the same way studies have shown that grade school teachers often unconsciously favor students they believe to be smart and disfavor those they believe to be less capable or unmotivated).

But let's not go too far--Tyler and Josh also commit a lot of fouls.

Oh, Tyler and Josh do foul a lot and therefore have the reputation as such. This reputation keeps them from getting the borderline calls. The good thing about TT is he get's his money's worth on his fouls. GoDuke!

[Henderson]

Wow, those are pretty remarkable stats. And nice job by the OP. Great research.

But in honesty, one possible explanation is that Duke committed significantly more fouls than UVa.

[sagegrouse]

Except for the fact that they had recently beaten Duke in Cameron near the end of the regular season. I think Duke was the better team that year, but the Yellow Jackets would not have rolled over for Duke.

Maybe so, maybe not. The Oklahoma State-Georgia Tech game, which preceded the Duke-UConn game, was a contest to see who could play worse. Oklahoma State won that contest by a point, and Tech got to go to the Finals. The Duke game, despite the questionable officiating, was played at an infinitely higher level. There was no question UConn would roll over Tech, and it did.

BTW, I am still recovering from the retinal damage caused by the orange shirts worn by every Cowboy fan.

Also, I appear to have been to every Final Four that Georgia Tech participated in. The only other was In Denver at 16,000-seat McNichols Arena in 1990.

[75Crazie]

But in honesty, one possible explanation is that Duke committed significantly more fouls than UVa.
There is no need to try to bring rational thought into this discussion. It is just so much easier to blame a foul discrepancy on the refs.

[Bluedog]

There is no need to try to bring rational thought into this discussion. It is just so much easier to blame a foul discrepancy on the refs.

The OP never mentioned the refs. Just said that the FT disparity was "historic," which seems to be true. There wasn't an attempt at explaining why that occurred, though, but obviously I readily admit that the insinuation is there even without saying it directly. This Duke team fouling a ton is certainly a plausible explanation.