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Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-16-2014, 05:35 PM
I got hammered in two threads for suggesting that complaining about the calls is subpar fandom. Let me attempt to explain myself...

Referees are part of the game. They make good calls and bad calls. They make mistakes in every game on both ends of the floor. Sometimes, the make game changing calls that are controversial.

Pointing out a disaparity in fouls does not mean biased refs. Pointing out a disparity in free throws does not mean biased refs. Teams play different styles, players make more mistakes, refs call different games different ways. Referrees are human and inconsistent. Unfortunately, refs sometimes make game deciding calls.

(Here is the crux if you were toning out my obvious points...)

My issue is that when you complain about refs after a game like we just played, you take away from UVa's accomplishments this season. UVa was the regular season champ and the deserved postseason champ. They have played consiatently excellent basketball all conference season.

We lost because Sheed lost his cool, because we spotted them a 10 pt lead at the beginning, because K got an uncharactaristic T, and because we lost our heads for about 90 seconds in the final minutes.

UVa played better basketball. To suggest that it was 8 on 5 detracts massively from what the Cavaliers were able to do today and all season: play great defense.

Maryland fans complain about refs when we beat them. So do UNC fans. Let's be bigger than that.

DukieInKansas
03-16-2014, 05:40 PM
I got hammered in two threads for suggesting that complaining about the calls is subpar fandom. Let me attempt to explain myself...

Referees are part of the game. They make good calls and bad calls. They make mistakes in every game on both ends of the floor. Sometimes, the make game changing calls that are controversial.

Pointing out a disaparity in fouls does not mean biased refs. Pointing out a disparity in free throws does not mean biased refs. Teams play different styles, players make more mistakes, refs call different games different ways. Referrees are human and inconsistent. Unfortunately, refs sometimes make game deciding calls.

(Here is the crux if you were toning out my obvious points...)

My issue is that when you complain about refs after a game like we just played, you take away from UVa's accomplishments this season. UVa was the regular season champ and the deserved postseason champ. They have played consiatently excellent basketball all conference season.

We lost because Sheed lost his cool, because we spotted them a 10 pt lead at the beginning, because K got an uncharactaristic T, and because we lost our heads for about 90 seconds in the final minutes.

UVa played better basketball. To suggest that it was 8 on 5 detracts massively from what the Cavaliers were able to do today and all season: play great defense.

Maryland fans complain about refs when we beat them. So do UNC fans. Let's be bigger than that.

Amen! You can argue about a particular call but, typically, that call doesn't determine the outcome of the game unless it is in the last few seconds of the game.

gurufrisbee
03-16-2014, 05:50 PM
It's ridiculous to complain about the refs over one or two calls for an entire game that almost certainly did not change the outcome.

It's more ridiculous to ignore the impact of the refs or to say bringing them up is not completely warranted in a game where you have one team get three times as many free throws, three times as much foul trouble, and three times as many non-calls going their way. Unfortuantely this happened to Duke today and at Wake and at Chapel Hill and in Syracuse. That's the truth.

SoCalDukeFan
03-16-2014, 05:53 PM
It's ridiculous to complain about the refs over one or two calls for an entire game that almost certainly did not change the outcome.

It's more ridiculous to ignore the impact of the refs or to say bringing them up is not completely warranted in a game where you have one team get three times as many free throws, three times as much foul trouble, and three times as many non-calls going their way. Unfortuantely this happened to Duke today and at Wake and at Chapel Hill and in Syracuse. That's the truth.

that the game was at Charlottesville.

SoCal

MaxAMillion
03-16-2014, 05:54 PM
I agree with you...officiating never loses any game. I do disagree about the technical...I don't think Coach K was out of control or to blame for the technical foul call. Things happen and you have to overcome it. UVA is more experienced and just better overall. Sometimes the opponent is just better.

I am already thinking about next season and wondering if that team will have enough leadership to improve over this year. Of course we still have to play out this year's NCAA tournament. I hope for the best for these players and coaches because I have great respect for the effort they put forth. Especially Coach K because the loss of his brother clearly knocked him back. Throw in the health scare and you realize that he dealt with a lot this year. It is easy to focus on our own disappointment, but the coaches and players invest a heck of a lot more than people posting on message boards.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-16-2014, 06:02 PM
It's ridiculous to complain about the refs over one or two calls for an entire game that almost certainly did not change the outcome.

It's more ridiculous to ignore the impact of the refs or to say bringing them up is not completely warranted in a game where you have one team get three times as many free throws, three times as much foul trouble, and three times as many non-calls going their way. Unfortuantely this happened to Duke today and at Wake and at Chapel Hill and in Syracuse. That's the truth.

So, to be clear, you believe we would have won if the refs had called the game evenly?

I think his Duke team loses to UVa 7 of 10 times this year. Regardless of refs.

Duke simply doesn't have enough offensive weapons to break that phenomenal UVa defense. We might win a few times, but any mistakes are magnifed against a tea, like UVa, and we rarely play mistake-free basketball.

Luckily, we will likely not face a defense like them again this year.

My point remains... great job UVa, you earned it. Hope you pull a one seed and defend it well.

Buckeye Devil
03-16-2014, 06:04 PM
I don't think that refereeing cost Duke the game today although it seemed to contribute somewhat to the overall result. Duke was whistled for 28 fouls resulting in Virginia shooting 38 free throws. Virginia was called for 15 fouls with Duke shooting 11 free throws, making 7. If Virginia had a better % at the stripe they would have blown us out but they made only 25 for 65%. Granted a few of those shots at the line came at the end of the game which kind of inflated the numbers a little bit.

Worse, Duke shot only 38% from the field and was outrebounded 39-34. They also played lousy defense, especially after making big shots and could never really get too much momentum. Duke contributed mightily to their own demise. Give Virginia a lot of credit. They deserved to win.

No, it wouldn't be fair to blame the refs for this loss. Duke didn't play good enough to win, bottom line. But never getting a break on a call now and then didn't help a whole lot.

ricks68
03-16-2014, 06:07 PM
I got hammered in two threads for suggesting that complaining about the calls is subpar fandom. Let me attempt to explain myself...

Referees are part of the game. They make good calls and bad calls. They make mistakes in every game on both ends of the floor. Sometimes, the make game changing calls that are controversial.

Pointing out a disaparity in fouls does not mean biased refs. Pointing out a disparity in free throws does not mean biased refs. Teams play different styles, players make more mistakes, refs call different games different ways. Referrees are human and inconsistent. Unfortunately, refs sometimes make game deciding calls.

(Here is the crux if you were toning out my obvious points...)

My issue is that when you complain about refs after a game like we just played, you take away from UVa's accomplishments this season. UVa was the regular season champ and the deserved postseason champ. They have played consiatently excellent basketball all conference season.

We lost because Sheed lost his cool, because we spotted them a 10 pt lead at the beginning, because K got an uncharactaristic T, and because we lost our heads for about 90 seconds in the final minutes.

UVa played better basketball. To suggest that it was 8 on 5 detracts massively from what the Cavaliers were able to do today and all season: play great defense.

Maryland fans complain about refs when we beat them. So do UNC fans. Let's be bigger than that.

While I totally agree with the above, and have a history of not blaming refs for the outcome of games, win or lose-------there were just too many non-calls for us when shooting around the basket, vs what UVA got------to feel OK about the referees on this one. UVA is a great team, and probably deserved to win it, but I think that I would have rather seen a more balanced game by the refs.

ricks

VesuvianSauce63
03-16-2014, 06:12 PM
It's more ridiculous to ignore the impact of the refs or to say bringing them up is not completely warranted in a game where you have one team get three times as many free throws, three times as much foul trouble, and three times as many non-calls going their way. Unfortuantely this happened to Duke today and at Wake and at Chapel Hill and in Syracuse. That's the truth.

In some games, the other team gets a whole lot more free throws and has far less foul trouble. Sometimes, the non-calls seem to go their way. And all the long rebounds, all the crazy bounces. When that happens, it's exasperating. And your team often loses.

What really hurts is to read the fan forums and see them flooded with terping about how the refs cost us the game. Saying things like "three times as many non-calls went their way" and implying that (1) somehow that could be quantified; (2) somehow that was incorrect and unfair; (3) that was a key reason we lost the game. In other words, the exact same thing you see on the Kentucky site, the Maryland site, and Inside Carolina after every one of their losses. It's depressing. I thought we were better than that.

In the game I saw, we played solidly but lost to a better team. I'm proud of Duke for the game and for the season, and congratulate the very fine Virginia team for their excellent season as well. Now I await the seedings and look forward to the tournament to come.

dukebballcamper90-91
03-16-2014, 06:16 PM
I don't normally complain about calls when talking smack with friends but Jabari took a beating all year and did so today. He only shot 3 ft today and attempted 24 fgs. We could not defend as aggressive as uva because they seem to get the whistle blown in their favor a lot more, especially on the and 1 opportunities.

alteran
03-16-2014, 06:24 PM
So, to be clear, you believe we would have won if the refs had called the game evenly?


Personally, I don't want to characterize the officiating in terms of whether it affected the outcome.

I wish to characterize it in terms of ... it sucked. It really really sucked. In fact, it was a disgrace.

Heck, when Rasheed got in the official's face after getting completely laid out with no call and he utterly and completely earned a T, my response was, "hell yeah, Rasheed." Normally, I'd go bananas over that, but good grief-- missing that call was unconscionable. These officials should be embarrassed about that. Funny we didn't get a replay of it. Not.

Oh, and allowing Bennett to do the hokey-pokey in the middle of our possession and not only NOT get a T, but in fact get a time out? Seriously?

If the situation had been reversed on officiating in this game, this game's officiating would be national, front page ESPN news, and I'd give you odds that at least one of these officials would get one of those quasi-suspensions the ACC hands out when enough terping goes on after a Duke win.

That being said, Duke certainly had AMPLE opportunity to walk out of Greensboro with a title, and just didn't get the job done. UVA did. Good for them. Lord knows, there's about 14 teams in the ACC I like less than the 'Hoos.

Sincere congrats to UVA. They had a hell of a season. They've been criminally underrated. They played good, clean, hard ball, and I really, truly hope they go a long way this year. The only team I won't root for them against is us.

Reisen
03-16-2014, 06:27 PM
I only watched about 30 minutes of the game, but the disparity in today's game strikes me as pretty amazing, and yet it's happened numerous times this year.

I'd love to see a quant-heavy approach to refereeing analysis. Maybe it exists, and I'm just not aware of it.

Specifically, compare FT disparities between winning and losing teams to various other metrics, including those teams' rankings, RPI #'s, shooting percentages, etc.

It seems to me you should be able to predict when one team of a given RPI rating beats another, what the FT disparity is going to look like. Then match up that model to our games this season. Certainly, in a game between two top-10 teams, it's not normal for the disparity to be this large, but how unusual is it? What are the chances of this happening to, say, Arizona, or Florida?

hudlow
03-16-2014, 06:28 PM
I'm not going to complain about the officiating in any one particular game. Today Duke lost to a very good Virginia team. I wanted this win as bad as anyone, but Duke didn't adapt, had a bad shooting night and made some bad decisions. Virginia had more to do with that than the refs.

Overall, I'd prefer to see more no calls than bad calls.

Chalk it up and play smarter next game.

GO DUKE!!!

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-18-2014, 10:36 AM
I think dilluted down the ref conversation and come to a conclusion. Seems most Duke fans here fall in to one of two camps:

1) For 15 years I have heard other teams carp, whine, and twerp about calls. We got hosed on Sunday by the refs, and I am tired of hearing about how we get the benefit of the doubt. My turn to pipe up.

Or

2) For 15 years I have heard other teams carp, whine, and twerp about calls. We got hosed on Sunday by the refs, I hated it when other teams do it, so I refuse to take part even if we did get hosed on Sunday.

Is that accurate? If so, we all agree about the first part. So that's something.

oldnavy
03-18-2014, 10:47 AM
And let me be clear in case anyone thinks I am saying the refs are biased against Duke...

I do not think the refs are biased for or against Duke or any other team...

My beef is and will be with the number of fouls called regardless of who they are called against...

Duke benefits as much as they are hurt by this... no more or no less than any other team IMO...

I just don't like FT shooting marathons....

DukeAlumBS
03-18-2014, 11:07 AM
I got hammered in two threads for suggesting that complaining about the calls is subpar fandom. Let me attempt to explain myself...

Referees are part of the game. They make good calls and bad calls. They make mistakes in every game on both ends of the floor. Sometimes, the make game changing calls that are controversial.

Pointing out a disaparity in fouls does not mean biased refs. Pointing out a disparity in free throws does not mean biased refs. Teams play different styles, players make more mistakes, refs call different games different ways. Referrees are human and inconsistent. Unfortunately, refs sometimes make game deciding calls.

(Here is the crux if you were toning out my obvious points...)

My issue is that when you complain about refs after a game like we just played, you take away from UVa's accomplishments this season. UVa was the regular season champ and the deserved postseason champ. They have played consiatently excellent basketball all conference season.

We lost because Sheed lost his cool, because we spotted them a 10 pt lead at the beginning, because K got an uncharactaristic T, and because we lost our heads for about 90 seconds in the final minutes.

UVa played better basketball. To suggest that it was 8 on 5 detracts massively from what the Cavaliers were able to do today and all season: play great defense.

Maryland fans complain about refs when we beat them. So do UNC fans. Let's be bigger than that.

Danka,
Congrats to UVA!
Great game. You earned it. Am very proud of your institution a fine academic institution!
The heck with the calls! Thank you for this.


Nice day
Jimmy

SoCalDukeFan
03-18-2014, 11:08 AM
While I totally agree with the above, and have a history of not blaming refs for the outcome of games, win or lose-------there were just too many non-calls for us when shooting around the basket, vs what UVA got------to feel OK about the referees on this one. UVA is a great team, and probably deserved to win it, but I think that I would have rather seen a more balanced game by the refs.

ricks

Most games are not decided by the refs. ESPN likes to show and reshow one call and ignore the other 100 or so made in the game.

I also think that the home crowd usually affects the refs as it does the players. After the game at 'Cuse a friend and non Duke fan told me that the Orange got the calls but no more than he expects for the home team.

However there are games that are so poorly officiated that the refs do have a major impact on the outcome. Look at 2004 UConn -Duke FF game. Refs screwed up the entire game. In the UVa game Jarbari was hammered inside and fouls were rarely called especially compared to what was called on Duke underneath. Putting an important player in foul trouble by calling fouls on him that should have been no calls also can greatly change the course of the game. (I would go to 6 fouls and mitigate somewhat the impact of one bad call.) The problem with these games is that fans of the losing team do not give the winning team the credit that they may deserve.

UVa did play great on Sunday and deserved to win. Duke had some lapses.

I don't know how many games out of 10 UVa wins against Duke. Right now we are 1-1, but our win was at home and with a shot that got a great bounce. I hope we find out who wins best out of 3.

SoCal

tux
03-18-2014, 11:25 AM
I think dilluted down the ref conversation and come to a conclusion. Seems most Duke fans here fall in to one of two camps:

1) For 15 years I have heard other teams carp, whine, and twerp about calls. We got hosed on Sunday by the refs, and I am tired of hearing about how we get the benefit of the doubt. My turn to pipe up.

Or

2) For 15 years I have heard other teams carp, whine, and twerp about calls. We got hosed on Sunday by the refs, I hated it when other teams do it, so I refuse to take part even if we did get hosed on Sunday.

Is that accurate? If so, we all agree about the first part. So that's something.

I think that probably sums it up pretty well.

I'm not sure we got "hosed" on Sunday (as it's hard to judge 50/50 calls or contact inside on rebounds, etc. watching from my couch.), and I *do* think refs should make each call on its own merits --- if there's a disparity in the end, so be it. But, that game felt a lot like the UNC and Syracuse away games. Those teams also played well enough to win (i.e., I don't want to take away from their great play), but it sure felt like to me that the refs had their collective thumbs on the scales. Just ticky-tack, phantom calls against Duke and not the same level of attention on the other team IMO. I would be shocked if there are many Duke fans that felt differently. The only difference is among those who are willing to "publicly" say they felt that way versus those who want to take the high road here on the boards.

But, for me, the more annoying thing is the ongoing media narrative re: Duke and how that plays out. As K said, it just starts to get very old. Case in point: On the local CBS coverage of the Duke-State game on Saturday, Tim Brando more or less opened the coverage with multiple replays of the last sequence from the Clemson game. He then said: "That clearly was a foul." He went on to say that Clemson shouldn't expect that call in the closing seconds, which was a bizarre conclusion IMO if you're 100% sure of the foul. Mike Geminski actually pushed back on the foul part, but the point is: The media has latched onto the "Duke gets all the calls" narrative to the point that it's an ongoing story after many Duke wins.

If Duke had gotten the bang-bang (50/50) calls that UNC, Syracuse, and UVA got against Duke this year, there would have been a national investigation. I mean, Van Pelt almost had a meltdown after the Clemson game on ESPN.

The question is whether that ongoing attention over the past 13 years (really since the 2001 championship game) has had any affect on how our games are called. I'm not sure about that.

I know that UVA is a very tough and tough-minded team -- probably more so than Duke -- and very worthy ACC champs. But I'm getting sick of having every Duke win run through the "ref filter" by our "objective" media, and then basically being dared to even bring up the refs after a tough loss when our AA candidate takes 24 shots (many right at the basket) and gets to the line 3 times. Somehow we've reached a point where it's accepted (and even encouraged) to question the refereeing when Duke wins... It's just the hypocrisy of it all that starts to grate.

wilko
03-18-2014, 11:25 AM
I reserve the right to gripe about whatever, whenever I want, as the notion strikes me.

You cant say our D was poor in the last minutes of the game when all the guys on the court had 4 fouls. Everybody is trying to avoid contact (matador) and hoping for a bad pass or turnover in stead of making it happen. Cuts aggressiveness.

Bad calls that benefit Duke... I will never ever never feel bad about being the recipient of a present. Trajan was fouled on the shot, Boozer was fouled on the put-back and JJ was MAULED most every game his Sr yr. Karma owes us some payback on these scores.

That said I think there is *some* merit to the notion of Duke losing out on some 50/50 situations because Refs want to avoid looking like they are protecting Duke. It has to be clear cut and obvious for Duke to get a call in the post this yr.

Satire Alert:
Id be real tempted to put in TZ for 5 Offensive straight plays run thru him and have him knock dudes like bowling pins into the band and pep squads. Maybe they need to see a TRUE foul once in a while... Would it be so bad if the refs immediately went into "protection" mode and called everything to keep the situation from escalating further?

BluDvlsN1
03-18-2014, 11:47 AM
This is more of a personal observation right, wrong or indifferent.

I was fortunate enough to be at the UNC make up game

What occured to me was not necessarily the quality of the officiating as much as timing of calls. Nuances?

In Chapel Hill, we were called early and often in each half, which changed measuably playing time and the flow of the game. Then as time progressed, the disparity closed up with not as much of an effect on Playing time /flow for the opponent.

Then I started looking closer at some othe games.

I've seen it it some other games since (not all).

Just putting this out for comment, observations from others.

freshmanjs
03-18-2014, 11:49 AM
I think dilluted down the ref conversation and come to a conclusion. Seems most Duke fans here fall in to one of two camps:

1) For 15 years I have heard other teams carp, whine, and twerp about calls. We got hosed on Sunday by the refs, and I am tired of hearing about how we get the benefit of the doubt. My turn to pipe up.

Or

2) For 15 years I have heard other teams carp, whine, and twerp about calls. We got hosed on Sunday by the refs, I hated it when other teams do it, so I refuse to take part even if we did get hosed on Sunday.

Is that accurate? If so, we all agree about the first part. So that's something.

i think there is another.

3) For 15 years I have heard other teams carp, whine, and twerp about calls. Other teams weren't getting hosed by the refs then and Duke wasn't hosed by the refs now. Foul discrepancies are best explained by style of play, aggressiveness, defensive position, etc.

Bluealum
03-18-2014, 12:14 PM
I got hammered in two threads for suggesting that complaining about the calls is subpar fandom. Let me attempt to explain myself...

Referees are part of the game. They make good calls and bad calls. They make mistakes in every game on both ends of the floor. Sometimes, the make game changing calls that are controversial.

Pointing out a disaparity in fouls does not mean biased refs. Pointing out a disparity in free throws does not mean biased refs. Teams play different styles, players make more mistakes, refs call different games different ways. Referrees are human and inconsistent. Unfortunately, refs sometimes make game deciding calls.

(Here is the crux if you were toning out my obvious points...)

My issue is that when you complain about refs after a game like we just played, you take away from UVa's accomplishments this season. UVa was the regular season champ and the deserved postseason champ. They have played consiatently excellent basketball all conference season.

We lost because Sheed lost his cool, because we spotted them a 10 pt lead at the beginning, because K got an uncharactaristic T, and because we lost our heads for about 90 seconds in the final minutes.

UVa played better basketball. To suggest that it was 8 on 5 detracts massively from what the Cavaliers were able to do today and all season: play great defense.

Maryland fans complain about refs when we beat them. So do UNC fans. Let's be bigger than that.

Well Said! I think there is something different about the issue that I submit may be affecting a lot of viewers. I was at the game and was as irritated as anyone over the rough interior play, there is no question that contact while shooting on the interior is allowed while even slight bumps on the perimeter are not.

I believe this affects Duke more than most teams for two reasons.

1.) We overplay on the perimeter to prevent 3 point looks and to prevent vision into the post. This puts our perimeter defenders right on the other teams offensive players. This in turn results in a lot more incidental contact on the perimeter where hand checking and touch fouls are easily seen and called, which includes hedging by the bigs.

2.) On the flip side, we are often smaller, or less physical on the interior, both offensively and defensively than most teams. If physicality on the interior is allowed we are likely to suffer disproportionately here as well.

From our vantage point we are being called for silly touch fouls when our guards and our hedging bigs try and stay in front of players when they are on the perimeter or driving, and this tends to be called quite closely in favor of the offense, particularly this year. On the other hand a lot of slapping at the ball and interior bumping is being allowed on the interior as there isn't a point of emphasis on this and those fouls are more difficult to see. When Jabari goes up in a crowd with three UVA bigs clogging the lane and slapping at the ball and he loses the ball, we rationally expect that not every hand magically hit the ball only, and that he consequently was fouled. This is true but hard to see at normal speed, hence its often not called because all refs know that no one wants to see a game with a million free throws and they simply aren't that sure who exactly fouled. This sort of thing happened at UNC as well with their collapsing interior defenders.

I wholly agree with the OP that there is no bias against Duke in particular, but that as a whole there is a fundamentally different standard for fouls out in the open court, vs fouls in the lane. I believe this standard affects Duke disproportionately because of our style of play. We can either continue to get aggravated by that dual standard (and believe its a Duke bias) or adjust accordingly. It's just that adjusting accordingly will impact how we have played defense for decades and is not that easy to do psychologically.

My 2 cents.

alteran
03-18-2014, 12:18 PM
I think that probably sums it up pretty well.

I'm not sure we got "hosed" on Sunday (as it's hard to judge 50/50 calls or contact inside on rebounds, etc. watching from my couch.), and I *do* think refs should make each call on its own merits --- if there's a disparity in the end, so be it. But, that game felt a lot like the UNC and Syracuse away games. Those teams also played well enough to win (i.e., I don't want to take away from their great play), but it sure felt like to me that the refs had their collective thumbs on the scales. Just ticky-tack, phantom calls against Duke and not the same level of attention on the other team IMO. I would be shocked if there are many Duke fans that felt differently. The only difference is among those who are willing to "publicly" say they felt that way versus those who want to take the high road here on the boards.

But, for me, the more annoying thing is the ongoing media narrative re: Duke and how that plays out. As K said, it just starts to get very old. Case in point: On the local CBS coverage of the Duke-State game on Saturday, Tim Brando more or less opened the coverage with multiple replays of the last sequence from the Clemson game. He then said: "That clearly was a foul." He went on to say that Clemson shouldn't expect that call in the closing seconds, which was a bizarre conclusion IMO if you're 100% sure of the foul. Mike Geminski actually pushed back on the foul part, but the point is: The media has latched onto the "Duke gets all the calls" narrative to the point that it's an ongoing story after many Duke wins.

If Duke had gotten the bang-bang (50/50) calls that UNC, Syracuse, and UVA got against Duke this year, there would have been a national investigation. I mean, Van Pelt almost had a meltdown after the Clemson game on ESPN.

The question is whether that ongoing attention over the past 13 years (really since the 2001 championship game) has had any affect on how our games are called. I'm not sure about that.

I know that UVA is a very tough and tough-minded team -- probably more so than Duke -- and very worthy ACC champs. But I'm getting sick of having every Duke win run through the "ref filter" by our "objective" media, and then basically being dared to even bring up the refs after a tough loss when our AA candidate takes 24 shots (many right at the basket) and gets to the line 3 times. Somehow we've reached a point where it's accepted (and even encouraged) to question the refereeing when Duke wins... It's just the hypocrisy of it all that starts to grate.

This. Pretty much all of this. Particularly the conclusion.

wilko
03-18-2014, 12:51 PM
Remember the "You make the call" segments on the old JP productions?

I think a lot of the disconnect between fans and officials is that nuanced rule tweaks arent widely understood by the majority of fans. When is the hand part of the ball? What constitutes a properly executed crossovervs a carry/palm violation thsoe types of things...

Audience education needs to keep up with the rule emphasis.

oldnavy
03-18-2014, 01:05 PM
Remember the "You make the call" segments on the old JP productions?

I think a lot of the disconnect between fans and officials is that nuanced rule tweaks arent widely understood by the majority of fans. When is the hand part of the ball? What constitutes a properly executed crossovervs a carry/palm violation thsoe types of things...

Audience education needs to keep up with the rule emphasis.

Or.... perhaps the "tweaks" are overkill in an area that really wasn't broken... at broken to the extent that it has been "corrected".

That is just my opinion...

Duvall
03-18-2014, 01:14 PM
Remember the "You make the call" segments on the old JP productions?

They've been replaced by every minute of every game called by Bilas and others.

hurleyfor3
03-18-2014, 01:17 PM
They've been replaced by every minute of every game called by Bilas and others.

I was gonna say, it's now called SportsCenter.

wilko
03-18-2014, 01:19 PM
Or.... perhaps the "tweaks" are overkill in an area that really wasn't broken... at broken to the extent that it has been "corrected".

That is just my opinion...

Not gonna disagree with the premise.

However, when you have groups of fans carping about everything and which in fact a large % of them know nothing....
Then a little Education wouldnt be so bad...
whether or not you agree with tweaks and interpretations in the 1st place...

Dukehky
03-18-2014, 01:22 PM
One of my biggest issues with this game, is that if Duke had a 38-11 FT advantage, the entire world would have said that it was some major conspiracy to give Duke the ACC Title.

THE biggest issue I have is that Jabari got 2 calls the entire game. It's only because I love Jabs so much, but he deserves better than that. He is so good, and is such a great person, it's not like he's Austin Rivers who certainly has a jerk/arrogant aura about him (I don't know if its true, but he could come off like that sometimes),. Jabari doesn't deserve to be beaten up all game without shooting more than 3 free throws.

Blah!!!! It's over, no more ACC officials for the rest of the season.

91_92_01_10_15
03-18-2014, 01:27 PM
year
duke fta
opp fta
differential


89-90
1163
794
369


90-91
1089
792
297


91-92
1043
583
460


92-93
838
524
314


93-94
797
560
237


94-95
616
593
23


95-96
633
645
-12


96-97
801
675
126


97-98
960
712
248


98-99
1135
730
405


99-00
833
541
292


00-01
1002
701
301


01-02
906
690
216


02-03
897
711
186


03-04
890
689
201


04-05
821
643
178


05-06
905
612
293


06-07
698
545
153


07-08
852
646
206


08-09
914
647
267


09-10
899
750
149


10-11
826
655
171


11-12
864
657
207


12-13
796
671
125


13-14
770
730
40

oldnavy
03-18-2014, 01:28 PM
Not gonna disagree with the premise.

However, when you have groups of fans carping about everything and which in fact a large % of them know nothing....
Then a little Education wouldnt be so bad...
whether or not you agree with tweaks and interpretations in the 1st place...

You know what might be interesting? That would be to have the referees do after game press conferences like they make the teams do.

Put them up in front of a mic and answer questions regarding their performance just like Roy, Coach K, and other have to do...

"Mr. Lucky, can you explain why you called a technical foul on Coach K for tossing a marker, and yet allowed Coach Bennett to leave the coaching box and run onto the court to stop play without penalty"?

Problem is that the refs are now controlling the tempo of games, and they are making a mess of it.

FerryFor50
03-18-2014, 01:30 PM
Some more "Duke gets all the calls"/Duke hate fodder:

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/03/ncaa-tournament-bracket-tips-enjoyment-2014/



Five ways to enjoy losing your NCAA tournament bracket pool

1. Pick against Duke

There are two kinds of people: Those who root for Duke and those with good taste. No matter which group you fall into, you should never pick the Blue Devils in the NCAA tournament. Why?

If you don’t root for Duke: This is self explanatory. There are some who will tell you to cover your bases and pick Duke to win it all, the idea being that you should earn financial reward if you’re going to have to watch Duke cut down the nets. It’s a fair point, but answer me this: Is this worth the price of your soul?

If you root for Duke: If this is your category, it’s either because you went to Duke, love someone who went to Duke or are Dick Vitale. In that case, it’s never good to tie your basketball emotions in with your bracket emotions. (That goes for fans of any tournament team.) If Duke wins and you win your pool — congratulations, you’re the type of person who values money over true happiness. If Duke loses and you lose, then you’re doubly bummed out. But if Duke wins it all and you lose, then your lifelong basketball pride far outweighs minor bracket disappointment. And if Duke loses and you win, then you’ll finally understand the joyous feeling, however fleeting, of watching a sad Steve Wojciechowski trudge off the court, wondering why the refs didn’t come through this time. Try it. It’s heavenly.

flyingdutchdevil
03-18-2014, 01:32 PM
year
duke fta
opp fta
differential


89-90
1163
794
369


90-91
1089
792
297


91-92
1043
583
460


92-93
838
524
314


93-94
797
560
237


94-95
616
593
23


95-96
633
645
-12


96-97
801
675
126


97-98
960
712
248


98-99
1135
730
405


99-00
833
541
292


00-01
1002
701
301


01-02
906
690
216


02-03
897
711
186


03-04
890
689
201


04-05
821
643
178


05-06
905
612
293


06-07
698
545
153


07-08
852
646
206


08-09
914
647
267


09-10
899
750
149


10-11
826
655
171


11-12
864
657
207


12-13
796
671
125


13-14
770
730
40




Thanks. Really useful. We aren't shooting as many FTs as we have historically, but I attribute that more to a lack of interior presence and plenty of 3s and long 2s. Also, the crazy number of zones we have faced is a huge factor. What is really surprising is the number of FTs that opponents shoot, which is higher than it has been since 90-91 (09-10 was higher, but I assume that NCAA tournament numbers are included in this). I think what factors into here is both our inexperience and ineffectiveness as a defensive unit.

Dukehky
03-18-2014, 01:38 PM
Some more "Duke gets all the calls"/Duke hate fodder:

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/03/ncaa-tournament-bracket-tips-enjoyment-2014/

It's amazing to me that we still get the high level of recruits that we get despite the venom directed at this program nationally. Even towards the kids. Announcers always say there is a target when Duke comes to town, well it's not just from the other teams' wanting to win. Not necessarily officiating either, because historically, let's be honest, we can't complain, nor can any other great programs, but the vitriol directed at kids who play for Duke, almost regardless of who they are or what they are like, is egregious.

Stuff like this is really frustrating. I just want Wojo to go bonkers/rabid wolverine on somebody just one time, that'll make 'em think twice.

sporthenry
03-18-2014, 01:45 PM
One of my biggest issues with this game, is that if Duke had a 38-11 FT advantage, the entire world would have said that it was some major conspiracy to give Duke the ACC Title.

THE biggest issue I have is that Jabari got 2 calls the entire game. It's only because I love Jabs so much, but he deserves better than that. He is so good, and is such a great person, it's not like he's Austin Rivers who certainly has a jerk/arrogant aura about him (I don't know if its true, but he could come off like that sometimes),. Jabari doesn't deserve to be beaten up all game without shooting more than 3 free throws.

Blah!!!! It's over, no more ACC officials for the rest of the season.

Agreed. Call me petty but I'm sick of any Duke benefit call, we have to hear about it, yet we hear nothing after this. We had to listen to complaints after Syracuse/Clemson regarding one call. Being quiet about it does nothing. At least "terping" about it will either change the national narrative or if you believe refs try not to give Duke calls, reverse that.

I have no problem saying there are games when Duke gets some calls. Nor do I have a problem saying the refs influence games. Yes, Duke could have done other stuff to win and the refs weren't all or the majority for why they lost. But they were a reason. And for whatever reason, maybe people think it ruins the sanctity of the game, people don't want to acknowledge that the players aren't the only actors in the game. I have no doubt that Duke had games like this where they got some calls in the past but even when Duke gets all the calls, you'd be hard pressed to find those foul/FT differentials.

Now your last point about Jabari brings up a valid point but something that has happened all year. Granted he was shooting a lot more earlier in the year but Jabari is pretty unremarkable at getting to the free throw line. I'm not really sure why that is. I guess b/c he is so big and strong and often time gets his shot off that refs ignore the contact. I imagine this will change in the NBA, although so will his defensive counterpart, but for whatever reason Jabari seems to get killed game in and game out.

wilko
03-18-2014, 01:58 PM
You know what might be interesting? That would be to have the referees do after game press conferences like they make the teams do.

Put them up in front of a mic and answer questions regarding their performance just like Roy, Coach K, and other have to do...

"Mr. Lucky, can you explain why you called a technical foul on Coach K for tossing a marker, and yet allowed Coach Bennett to leave the coaching box and run onto the court to stop play without penalty"?

Problem is that the refs are now controlling the tempo of games, and they are making a mess of it.

You are right. It would be interesting...

"So, Coach, you left Jabari and Rodney out there with 4 fouls and they both pick up their 5th in the middle of the second half. Was that the turning point in the game and should you have done anything differently" That Q would get an interesting answer I'll wager.

"So, Referee Lucky, can you explain the inconsistency in the application of calling a technical foul for a thrown pen vs: running on the court" Another interesting answer to follow I'm sure...

I think some level of public accountability for officials is useful. Hiding them under the League banner to say something nondescript like "within current guidelines" is a weak sounding cop-out.

With some audience education, I would hope this could be largely avoided and have folks settle down..

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-18-2014, 02:18 PM
year
duke fta
opp fta
differential


89-90
1163
794
369


90-91
1089
792
297


91-92
1043
583
460


92-93
838
524
314


93-94
797
560
237


94-95
616
593
23


95-96
633
645
-12


96-97
801
675
126


97-98
960
712
248


98-99
1135
730
405


99-00
833
541
292


00-01
1002
701
301


01-02
906
690
216


02-03
897
711
186


03-04
890
689
201


04-05
821
643
178


05-06
905
612
293


06-07
698
545
153


07-08
852
646
206


08-09
914
647
267


09-10
899
750
149


10-11
826
655
171


11-12
864
657
207


12-13
796
671
125


13-14
770
730
40




Simple, but very interesting. Our championship years, plus 99 are all our highest foul shot years. 2010 is a clear outlier.

The forgettable years are the lowest FT shooting years.

This year is about middle. Feels about right.

DoubleDuke Dad
03-18-2014, 06:24 PM
For those not at the ACC tournament, you missed hearing the fans constantly complaining about the refereeing on every play. It seems that they were really upset by what they felt were the lack of calls on the other team. No, these were not the Duke fans, but the Virginia fans. The fact that there was such a discrepancy in their favor in the number of fouls called did not faze them one bit. They felt that Duke should have been called for a foul on every play. And when Duke had the ball, they were constantly screaming for a walking call or an offensive foul. And we are not talking about just a few folks. The Coliseum was a sea of Orange and you could hear the complaints loud and clear. For a minute I though we were playing Maryland.:)

tendev
03-18-2014, 09:01 PM
There is a difference between complaining about the "Duke gets all the calls" mantra and pointing out the disparity between the calls in UVa game as evidence that the mantra is not accurate and complaining about the disparity in the calls in the UVa game after it was over and listing it as a factor or the major difference maker in the outcome. After the game, some on this board mentioned the foul disparity and then said something like, "oh by the way this did no matter because UVa would have won anyway" as if to say, I am not really complaining about the refs because they did not affect the outcome. But you really are saying it affected the outcome.

If you don't believe that Duke gets all the calls, how can you believe the UVa did this time or that any team does. And if you don't believe that any team gets all the calls in any game, why bring it up. When you bring it up, the implicit assumption is that our team would have won but for the lousy refereeing.

Put another way, I never hear the fans of the winning team say we got all the calls and that is why we won. If I hear that on this board then I will have no complaint when someone complains about the refs after we lose.

moonpie23
03-18-2014, 09:40 PM
back in '07 or '08.....i complained about the refs "fixing" a game against Lebron when he was at cleveland.....i was aghast at some of the calls.

I made some direct accusations on the old Chris Clark show on 850 the buzz and was promptly ripped to shreds for my assertion that referees had ulterior motives or agendas.....

the ref in that game was tim donaghy......

i'm not saying that jamie lucky was "Fixing" games against duke, but i will make the assertion that he does NOT like Duke or Coach K, therefore, i don't think we'll ever get a "fair" shake with him....

Newton_14
03-18-2014, 09:46 PM
For those not at the ACC tournament, you missed hearing the fans constantly complaining about the refereeing on every play. It seems that they were really upset by what they felt were the lack of calls on the other team. No, these were not the Duke fans, but the Virginia fans. The fact that there was such a discrepancy in their favor in the number of fouls called did not faze them one bit. They felt that Duke should have been called for a foul on every play. And when Duke had the ball, they were constantly screaming for a walking call or an offensive foul. And we are not talking about just a few folks. The Coliseum was a sea of Orange and you could hear the complaints loud and clear. For a minute I though we were playing Maryland.:)

It was similar in my section but in fairness the two rows of UVA fans right in front of us cried the entire game over every single call that went against them or like you say about stuff they thought should have been called against Duke, however, the folks in the rows behind us rarely complained about a call. In other sections near us though, there were a lot of UVA fans in that "complained the entire game" category.

roywhite
03-18-2014, 09:54 PM
It was similar in my section but in fairness the two rows of UVA fans right in front of us cried the entire game over every single call that went against them or like you say about stuff they thought should have been called against Duke, however, the folks in the rows behind us rarely complained about a call. In other sections near us though, there were a lot of UVA fans in that "complained the entire game" category.

Yeah, had some of the same experience with the Wahoo fans where I sat Sunday. Moaning about any call that went against them, and griping about Duke always gets the calls. And, then for variety, there were two knuckleheaded UVa fans who were ragging Jabari constantly. "He's not as good as he thinks he is". Overall, they did remind me a bit of Terp fans, though not as vulgar.

Charitably, I guess we could say they don't have much experience with championship basketball.

Newton_14
03-18-2014, 10:19 PM
Yeah, had some of the same experience with the Wahoo fans where I sat Sunday. Moaning about any call that went against them, and griping about Duke always gets the calls. And, then for variety, there were two knuckleheaded UVa fans who were ragging Jabari constantly. "He's not as good as he thinks he is". Overall, they did remind me a bit of Terp fans, though not as vulgar.

Charitably, I guess we could say they don't have much experience with championship basketball.

Other than ref complaints, the UVA fans near us were great to be honest. I heard one guy tell K to sit down a couple of times but other than that, they were great fans to watch a game with. very polite, pulled hard and loudly for their guys, said nothing vulgar or negative about our players, etc. I was very impressed with them for the most part. Complaining about calls was the only negative and that was mostly limited to a handful in our section.

lotusland
03-19-2014, 06:47 AM
According to message boards for every school there is a huge conspiracy to screw everyone.

oldnavy
03-19-2014, 07:28 AM
According to message boards for every school there is a huge conspiracy to screw everyone.

Well maybe..

I don't think there is any conspiracy at all. I just think that referring has elevated itself to having more influence on the game than it needs to. Too much referring on both sides of the ball IMO...

The best games are the ones where you don't even notice that there were refs... they are there, they make the appropriate calls, but they don't insert themselves into the game with bogus, no harm, nit picky, touch or no touch phantom calls, just for the sake of blowing a whistle.

Last night in the Georgetown game, I believe it was Dan Dakich (sp?) made a comment on what I think has become one of the most over called fouls this year. A player for the other team, was driving to the basket, the GT defender was guarding him, the offensive player was making progress to the hoop, basically unimpeded, but guarded closely with some body to body contact... whistle blows... on replay Dokich says... that just looks like two guys playing basketball.... exactly my feelings!! The call actually stopped what would have probably been a GT basket, so who did the call benefit??? No one. Georgetown had to take the ball out of bounds and reset, and the defensive team had a foul charged against them.

This happens A LOT, and it is not making the game any more free flowing or allowing players any better freedom of movement, or whatever the reasons are for calling this foul. It just stops play, extends the game and bores the heck out of me.... and this is just one example, there are others as well.

I have said way more than enough about this... I am tired of complaining and I am sure others are tired of hearing it. I just hope that whoever wanted to "fix" the game of basketball is happy with what we have now. I'm not.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-19-2014, 09:26 AM
I accidentally posted the following in another thread, but it was meant to live here. It followed the discussion about the foul chart and how it relates to winning percentage, as well as a mention that teams with a sizeable talent advantage are likely to draw more fouls...

[From K thread]

Thanks for all the data and discussion. As I hoped, this conversation has moved past the frustrations we all felt on Sunday.

I like the simplicity of the table of fouls called and it does bring up interesting follow up questions. Clearly there is some truth to the fact that an over-matched team is likely to foul more. When you have Jason Williams and Shane Battier on the floor, or JJ Reddick, your opponent fouls out of desperation.

Additionally, a team that shoots more free throws has a greater chance of winning, obviously.

To me, the question of whether complaining about calls is warranted boils down to one question... is there a demonstrated bias against or for a particular team or player through a game or a season? This is much more difficult to prove through numbers, because while we all know a "bad call" when we see one, you can't easily quantify it on paper.

Tyler gets lots of fouls for his minutes played, but we all accept that it is part of his aggressiveness and how he plays. MP3 is called for lots of fouls because he is out of position.

The only chart that would prove to me a bias would be a pattern of egregious "bad calls" against a team and evaluated by a third party.

Anyways, thanks for the discussion. Fills the quiet days this week rather nicely.

alteran
03-19-2014, 09:37 AM
There is a difference between complaining about the "Duke gets all the calls" mantra and pointing out the disparity between the calls in UVa game as evidence that the mantra is not accurate and complaining about the disparity in the calls in the UVa game after it was over and listing it as a factor or the major difference maker in the outcome. After the game, some on this board mentioned the foul disparity and then said something like, "oh by the way this did no matter because UVa would have won anyway" as if to say, I am not really complaining about the refs because they did not affect the outcome. But you really are saying it affected the outcome.

If you don't believe that Duke gets all the calls, how can you believe the UVa did this time or that any team does. And if you don't believe that any team gets all the calls in any game, why bring it up. When you bring it up, the implicit assumption is that our team would have won but for the lousy refereeing.

Put another way, I never hear the fans of the winning team say we got all the calls and that is why we won. If I hear that on this board then I will have no complaint when someone complains about the refs after we lose.

If you want to debate with others, don't put words in their mouths. That's debating with yourself-- and it's kind of insulting.

Saying the officials called a horrible game and saying that it's the only reason Virginia won are two different things.

If the game had been officiated well, we would have had an entirely different game. Virginia would have acted different, Duke would have acted different, there's no telling what would have happened. Virginia is a fine ball club and they won the regular season outright. That did not happen by chance. Duke played hard and barely held them off in Cameron.

So what would happen in a hypothetically well-officiated ACC finals is a matter for speculation. Period. I can't speak to what would have happened in this hypothetical situation, nor will I fall into a false debate over hypotheticals so that some folks that disagree with me can name call (whiners, complainers, etc.).

You're welcome to think the game was well-officiated, and I will debate that with you. You will be wrong, because the officiating in the game was comically bad and no one is seriously disputing that, but I will debate it with you. But this feels more like changing the subject so you can be insulting to people that disagree with you. That might not be your intent, but that's what it feels like to me.

Gthoma2a
03-19-2014, 10:36 AM
I try not to blame the refs consistently, but this year has been hard. I think that part of the reason is that a lot of it is centered around one kid that I think too much of to see it happen to him. Jabari has been whistled like he was a bull in a china shop (which he isn't) and those playing against him are allowed to do all but tackle him. I hate to see it happen to a good kid. He deserves to play the game on the same footing with the refs as anyone else. In the press conference after the game, he seemed down. he doesn't deserve to be singled out the way that he is. He is better than the players around him, but that shouldn't mean the other team gets to play with a handicap given to them by the refs.

It bothered me a lot in this game, because we specifically game-planned for an evenly called game. We didn't shoot 3s so that we could get them in foul trouble and score from the line. We were aggressive. We did this in both halves (in an obvious way), but the refs decided to swallow their whistles. It is fine, but if we would have known that they were going to do that all game, we would have likely shot more 3s, which we were hitting, and made the game a lot closer (and perhaps won since we seemed to be doing better from 3 than 2).

DarkstarWahoo
03-19-2014, 11:18 AM
Wahoo fan here, first post, honestly not flaming. I'll start off by saying that you guys have been super-respectful of UVA from what I've seen, and I appreciate that. Y'all know your hoops.

Also, please forgive any wonky formatting on this post since it's my first time using the board and I decided to jump right into the semi-deep end, HTML-wise.

I get that there was a large free-throw discrepancy, but when you look into it, was the game really that poorly called? Looking at free-throw attempts:

Total free throw attempts: UVA 38, Duke 11
Four of those were from technicals. Leaving out the issue of whether they were deserved, they're not relevant to a discussion of personal fouls.
UVA 34, Duke 11
Six of them were in the final minute when Duke was fouling to try to get back in the game. (The Hoos actually shot eight free throws during this period, but two were for Sulaimon's T, which we've already removed from the equation.)
UVA 28, Duke 11

Of the remaining free throws, Anthony Gill shot 17 of them. Duke was pretty clearly targeting him with fouls when he got offensive rebounds or tried to go to the hoop. (A defensible strategy, to be sure.) Given that one player with a clear free-throw weakness spent so much time with the ball in his hands near the hoop, is the discrepancy really as bad as people are making it out to be?

FerryFor50
03-19-2014, 11:26 AM
Wahoo fan here, first post, honestly not flaming. I'll start off by saying that you guys have been super-respectful of UVA from what I've seen, and I appreciate that. Y'all know your hoops.

Also, please forgive any wonky formatting on this post since it's my first time using the board and I decided to jump right into the semi-deep end, HTML-wise.

I get that there was a large free-throw discrepancy, but when you look into it, was the game really that poorly called? Looking at free-throw attempts:

Total free throw attempts: UVA 38, Duke 11
Four of those were from technicals. Leaving out the issue of whether they were deserved, they're not relevant to a discussion of personal fouls.
UVA 34, Duke 11
Six of them were in the final minute when Duke was fouling to try to get back in the game. (The Hoos actually shot eight free throws during this period, but two were for Sulaimon's T, which we've already removed from the equation.)
UVA 28, Duke 11

Of the remaining free throws, Anthony Gill shot 17 of them. Duke was pretty clearly targeting him with fouls when he got offensive rebounds or tried to go to the hoop. (A defensible strategy, to be sure.) Given that one player with a clear free-throw weakness spent so much time with the ball in his hands near the hoop, is the discrepancy really as bad as people are making it out to be?

Welcome to the boards.

I think that a majority of us are not disputing the fact that Duke fouled UVA on numerous occasions. We acknowledge that we foul a lot more this year, likely due to the emphasis on the perimeter hand checks. The issue is not with the 28-38 FTs that UVA shot; the issue is with the 11FTs Duke attempted, considering how much Duke made attempts to go to the basket and how often Jabari Parker and others were hit on those attempts.

As Coach K pointed out, Parker took 23 shot attempts and only got to the line 3 times. Most of his shot attempts were in close. And like most of the year, he got hammered on those inside attempts (UVA is not unique in this regard).

The fact that Coach K, who RARELY makes public comments on officiating, brought it up, is telling.

I'm personally in the camp that UVA deserved to shoot the FTs they shot. It was the other end of the court where I thought the discrepancy came from. The foul differential was a snowball effect. The more Duke fouls piled up, the less aggressive they could be on defense. The more UVA was allowed to get away with contact, the more brazen they could be with over the backs, hacks on drives, body contact down low, etc. UVA is heavily dependent on their defense; if they started getting guys in foul trouble, that defense starts to look more like Duke's defense did after the fouls piled up - tentative, conservative, unsure.

DukeAlumBS
03-19-2014, 11:32 AM
Congrats to your win! Rather you than the new ACC players. Syracuse and Pitt. You have an excellent institution as well. This I respect more than the game. Not like issues going on at UNC/CH. The game was tough, hard played, and you won it IMO.
I like a chance next year!!
Anyway, congrats to your team. I am still trying to add Duke to my Final Four this year. First time having problems with this!
Good Luck to your team. A some of us have stated, it was a tough game, brutal. Fouls were called.
Some have no issue with the way game was called.
Again, good luck!
Nice day
Jimmy

moonpie23
03-19-2014, 11:44 AM
yeah.....gad it was UVA instead of one of the newbies.....


welcome to the board....as others have said, it wasnt the fouls called on US....it was the lack of fouls called on UVA....

Gthoma2a
03-19-2014, 11:57 AM
Wahoo fan here, first post, honestly not flaming. I'll start off by saying that you guys have been super-respectful of UVA from what I've seen, and I appreciate that. Y'all know your hoops.

Also, please forgive any wonky formatting on this post since it's my first time using the board and I decided to jump right into the semi-deep end, HTML-wise.

I get that there was a large free-throw discrepancy, but when you look into it, was the game really that poorly called? Looking at free-throw attempts:

Total free throw attempts: UVA 38, Duke 11
Four of those were from technicals. Leaving out the issue of whether they were deserved, they're not relevant to a discussion of personal fouls.
UVA 34, Duke 11
Six of them were in the final minute when Duke was fouling to try to get back in the game. (The Hoos actually shot eight free throws during this period, but two were for Sulaimon's T, which we've already removed from the equation.)
UVA 28, Duke 11

Of the remaining free throws, Anthony Gill shot 17 of them. Duke was pretty clearly targeting him with fouls when he got offensive rebounds or tried to go to the hoop. (A defensible strategy, to be sure.) Given that one player with a clear free-throw weakness spent so much time with the ball in his hands near the hoop, is the discrepancy really as bad as people are making it out to be?

Good to have you. We aren't upset with Virginia in any way or arguing too much with the fouls that we did commit (we know we fouled), but that we felt there were a lot of fouls left under our basket that would have been called on the other side. It isn't just this game, so don't feel like anyone is trying to take the win away from your team. Your team played very well, and may well have won regardless. I have a lot of respect for your program/institution. It just feels like, for a lot of the year, Jabari has been sort of punished for being a big guy with a lot of skill. When he makes a move down low and gets mugged, they look at it like he should be good enough to play through whatever happened without a foul being called (it is just considered how you defend Jabari, at this point). It creates a difficult situation for us and a young player with a lot of talent. I can't fault any team that takes advantage of this, but I do wonder why the refs have allowed it to become a gameplan. It is most concerning to me now, because it hasn't corrected itself all season and we are going into single elimination for our season (not to mention that it may take away one of our most effective strategies, driving to the basket, and keep us from having all of our weapons available).

Like I say, though, total respect to UVa on being legit champions of the league in the regular season and in the tournament. The team definitely earned it.

DarkstarWahoo
03-19-2014, 01:15 PM
Thank y'all for the thoughtful responses. (And for the props for my Wahoos - I enjoy those a lot!) That does make sense that more of the beef is with the way it was called at the other end, and I admit that I didn't watch that as closely as you guys did. Maybe this is an excuse for me to go back and watch again :D The only one that I remember well is the one the officials blew in Duke's favor (the potential 4-point play in the last minute). We all watch games with our own biases.

I'm a Celtics fan, and I've tried to focus on Parker whenever I watch Duke since I know Danny Ainge is very high on him (justifiably so). I wonder if part of the issue with Parker is that he tends to give as good as he gets on the offensive end, or at least dish out his fair share. He's obviously a big, strong dude, as Gthoma pointed out, and he knows how to use that to his advantage. I can't recall where I saw it, but someone compared him to LeBron in the way that he tends to lower his shoulders to create space. If it has been an issue all year - and while I have watched a lot of Parker, I wasn't exactly looking for foul calls or lack thereof, so you guys would know better than me - that might be part of it. Something of an attitude of "Well, he's playing physically and initiating a lot of contact," which could lead to swallowing the whistle a bit. Or maybe my armchair referee psychoanalysis is way off.

FerryFor50
03-19-2014, 01:18 PM
Thank y'all for the thoughtful responses. (And for the props for my Wahoos - I enjoy those a lot!) That does make sense that more of the beef is with the way it was called at the other end, and I admit that I didn't watch that as closely as you guys did. Maybe this is an excuse for me to go back and watch again :D The only one that I remember well is the one the officials blew in Duke's favor (the potential 4-point play in the last minute). We all watch games with our own biases.

I'm a Celtics fan, and I've tried to focus on Parker whenever I watch Duke since I know Danny Ainge is very high on him (justifiably so). I wonder if part of the issue with Parker is that he tends to give as good as he gets on the offensive end, or at least dish out his fair share. He's obviously a big, strong dude, as Gthoma pointed out, and he knows how to use that to his advantage. I can't recall where I saw it, but someone compared him to LeBron in the way that he tends to lower his shoulders to create space. If it has been an issue all year - and while I have watched a lot of Parker, I wasn't exactly looking for foul calls or lack thereof, so you guys would know better than me - that might be part of it. Something of an attitude of "Well, he's playing physically and initiating a lot of contact," which could lead to swallowing the whistle a bit. Or maybe my armchair referee psychoanalysis is way off.

He definitely gives some of the contact.

But if you want to compare to LeBron... well, LeBron goes to the line. ALOT. Shaq went to the line. ALOT. Carmelo? Ditto.

I get that Parker doesn't get the call when he lowers a shoulder into a guy and gets bumped. But when he gets slapped and hacked? Or when he jumps and gets bodied? Those are fouls, regardless.

jv001
03-19-2014, 01:18 PM
Thank y'all for the thoughtful responses. (And for the props for my Wahoos - I enjoy those a lot!) That does make sense that more of the beef is with the way it was called at the other end, and I admit that I didn't watch that as closely as you guys did. Maybe this is an excuse for me to go back and watch again :D The only one that I remember well is the one the officials blew in Duke's favor (the potential 4-point play in the last minute). We all watch games with our own biases.

I'm a Celtics fan, and I've tried to focus on Parker whenever I watch Duke since I know Danny Ainge is very high on him (justifiably so). I wonder if part of the issue with Parker is that he tends to give as good as he gets on the offensive end, or at least dish out his fair share. He's obviously a big, strong dude, as Gthoma pointed out, and he knows how to use that to his advantage. I can't recall where I saw it, but someone compared him to LeBron in the way that he tends to lower his shoulders to create space. If it has been an issue all year - and while I have watched a lot of Parker, I wasn't exactly looking for foul calls or lack thereof, so you guys would know better than me - that might be part of it. Something of an attitude of "Well, he's playing physically and initiating a lot of contact," which could lead to swallowing the whistle a bit. Or maybe my armchair referee psychoanalysis is way off.

I believe you have Hanstravel from Tarheel country mixed up with Jabari. :cool: GoDuke!

ricks68
03-19-2014, 01:30 PM
Thank y'all for the thoughtful responses. (And for the props for my Wahoos - I enjoy those a lot!) That does make sense that more of the beef is with the way it was called at the other end, and I admit that I didn't watch that as closely as you guys did. Maybe this is an excuse for me to go back and watch again :D The only one that I remember well is the one the officials blew in Duke's favor (the potential 4-point play in the last minute). We all watch games with our own biases.

I'm a Celtics fan, and I've tried to focus on Parker whenever I watch Duke since I know Danny Ainge is very high on him (justifiably so). I wonder if part of the issue with Parker is that he tends to give as good as he gets on the offensive end, or at least dish out his fair share. He's obviously a big, strong dude, as Gthoma pointed out, and he knows how to use that to his advantage. I can't recall where I saw it, but someone compared him to LeBron in the way that he tends to lower his shoulders to create space. If it has been an issue all year - and while I have watched a lot of Parker, I wasn't exactly looking for foul calls or lack thereof, so you guys would know better than me - that might be part of it. Something of an attitude of "Well, he's playing physically and initiating a lot of contact," which could lead to swallowing the whistle a bit. Or maybe my armchair referee psychoanalysis is way off.

Welcome to the board, and good luck to UVA if we are not in it in the end. You guys have a great (and honorable) team, as well as your school. I have to agree with your assessment, and also with the reasoning of the other posters on this thread that the concerns are with the disparity on our side of the issue regarding our offensive players not getting the calls they deserved.

ricks

tendev
03-19-2014, 01:35 PM
If you want to debate with others, don't put words in their mouths. That's debating with yourself-- and it's kind of insulting.

Saying the officials called a horrible game and saying that it's the only reason Virginia won are two different things.

If the game had been officiated well, we would have had an entirely different game. Virginia would have acted different, Duke would have acted different, there's no telling what would have happened. Virginia is a fine ball club and they won the regular season outright. That did not happen by chance. Duke played hard and barely held them off in Cameron.

So what would happen in a hypothetically well-officiated ACC finals is a matter for speculation. Period. I can't speak to what would have happened in this hypothetical situation, nor will I fall into a false debate over hypotheticals so that some folks that disagree with me can name call (whiners, complainers, etc.).

You're welcome to think the game was well-officiated, and I will debate that with you. You will be wrong, because the officiating in the game was comically bad and no one is seriously disputing that, but I will debate it with you. But this feels more like changing the subject so you can be insulting to people that disagree with you. That might not be your intent, but that's what it feels like to me.

I don't see how you can contend that I am putting words into people's mouths. There were clearly more than a few who pointed out the foul disparity on the UVa post game thread. One flat out stated that the calls were the difference in the outcome.

My point above and still is, you can't have it both ways. When an opposing team's fans and the media carp that "Duke gets all calls" and you insist that Duke does not get all the calls (which is my view) then you can't turn around when Duke loses and complain about the foul disparity, which in my view is another way of saying that the winning team "got all the calls".

I don't intend to insult you or anyone else. And I was not debating whether it was a poorly officiated game or not. I don't care if it was. I just think complaining about poor officiating takes away from the other team's well-deserved victory. UVa won because they were better, and I dare say it, they may even be a better team.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-19-2014, 02:30 PM
Thank y'all for the thoughtful responses. (And for the props for my Wahoos - I enjoy those a lot!) That does make sense that more of the beef is with the way it was called at the other end, and I admit that I didn't watch that as closely as you guys did. Maybe this is an excuse for me to go back and watch again :D The only one that I remember well is the one the officials blew in Duke's favor (the potential 4-point play in the last minute). We all watch games with our own biases.

I'm a Celtics fan, and I've tried to focus on Parker whenever I watch Duke since I know Danny Ainge is very high on him (justifiably so). I wonder if part of the issue with Parker is that he tends to give as good as he gets on the offensive end, or at least dish out his fair share. He's obviously a big, strong dude, as Gthoma pointed out, and he knows how to use that to his advantage. I can't recall where I saw it, but someone compared him to LeBron in the way that he tends to lower his shoulders to create space. If it has been an issue all year - and while I have watched a lot of Parker, I wasn't exactly looking for foul calls or lack thereof, so you guys would know better than me - that might be part of it. Something of an attitude of "Well, he's playing physically and initiating a lot of contact," which could lead to swallowing the whistle a bit. Or maybe my armchair referee psychoanalysis is way off.

Again, welcome to the boards and congrats to your Hoos.

I think one of the things that has been fun about watching Duke this year is watching Parker's development. He's clearly not any (or not much) bigger than he was at the beginning of the season, but it is relatively recent that he has started playing in this way. Much like how at the beginning of the ACC season, someone on the coaching staff clearly suggested he start focusing on rebounds. The result - he went from a handful of rebounds a game that came to him, to being the second highest rebounder in the conference.

To me, Parker bulling his way into the middle to get shots/fouls is an obvious way to use his body (think Elton Brand on offense) and is a pretty clear next step in his development. It's a smart strategy, and perhaps K's frustration stems from the fact that he did it, did it well, but did not get the production (fouls) that was expected.

All this really tells me is that Parker could add so many more facets to his game with another year of coaching.... Right? :)

FerryFor50
03-19-2014, 02:37 PM
Again, welcome to the boards and congrats to your Hoos.

I think one of the things that has been fun about watching Duke this year is watching Parker's development. He's clearly not any (or not much) bigger than he was at the beginning of the season, but it is relatively recent that he has started playing in this way. Much like how at the beginning of the ACC season, someone on the coaching staff clearly suggested he start focusing on rebounds. The result - he went from a handful of rebounds a game that came to him, to being the second highest rebounder in the conference.

To me, Parker bulling his way into the middle to get shots/fouls is an obvious way to use his body (think Elton Brand on offense) and is a pretty clear next step in his development. It's a smart strategy, and perhaps K's frustration stems from the fact that he did it, did it well, but did not get the production (fouls) that was expected.

All this really tells me is that Parker could add so many more facets to his game with another year of coaching.... Right? :)

Maybe we need to hire Tyler Hansbrough's big man coach...

DarkstarWahoo
03-19-2014, 02:38 PM
Again, welcome to the boards and congrats to your Hoos.

I think one of the things that has been fun about watching Duke this year is watching Parker's development. He's clearly not any (or not much) bigger than he was at the beginning of the season, but it is relatively recent that he has started playing in this way. Much like how at the beginning of the ACC season, someone on the coaching staff clearly suggested he start focusing on rebounds. The result - he went from a handful of rebounds a game that came to him, to being the second highest rebounder in the conference.

To me, Parker bulling his way into the middle to get shots/fouls is an obvious way to use his body (think Elton Brand on offense) and is a pretty clear next step in his development. It's a smart strategy, and perhaps K's frustration stems from the fact that he did it, did it well, but did not get the production (fouls) that was expected.

All this really tells me is that Parker could add so many more facets to his game with another year of coaching.... Right? :)

No disagreement with any of that, especially the last line. Brad Stevens has really shown a rapport with young players! (ducks)

alteran
03-19-2014, 02:40 PM
One of these things ...

I don't see how you can contend that I am putting words into people's mouths.
… is not like the other...

...But you really are saying it affected the outcome.
… or this other.

When you bring it up, the implicit assumption is that our team would have won but for the lousy refereeing.
I have explained how/why I and many others are complaining about the officiating-- because it manifestly sucked.


I have also explained why this does not mean good officiating would have changed the outcome-- because VA is an excellent ball club that earned everything they got this year including their 1 seed.

One flat out stated that the calls were the difference in the outcome.
Then don't paint everyone calling out the officials, or paint us all with the same brush.

My point above and still is, you can't have it both ways.
The sentence above is you putting words into someone else's mouth.
Watch me have it both ways, right now:
- The officiating in the ACC finals was the worst I've seen in ten years. It was a disgrace.
- In a well-officiated game, I can't accurately predict whether Duke or UVA wins.

I just think complaining about poor officiating takes away from the other team's well-deserved victory. UVa won because they were better, and I dare say it, they may even be a better team.
I get this. Which is why in just about every post, I and the majority of others have bent over backwards to praise UVA and point out that they are a great team.

Dukehky
03-19-2014, 03:50 PM
^^^^^^I am willing to say that had the game been called differently, Duke would have won. I think the inconsistency got into our guys heads especially on the defensive glass, especially once some of the big guys got 4 fouls, which is where we really lost the game, on the defensive glass in the last 3 minutes. Should that happen? No, but this is a young team and can. Is UVA a really good team? Of course, but I think Duke is better. UVA certainly didn't pay the officials or anything, they won fair and square, by beef is not with them.

But whatever, hopefully K's little Phil Jackson mind trick will help, or at least not hurt, us in the NCAA tournament. Ultimately, I don't think it's really going to matter other than the fact that I doubt Jamie Lucky will do any Duke game of consequence in the near future, at least I hope not.

Some State fan sitting near me during the Clemson game kept yelling that Duke pays the refs. I like to come back with this one in those scenarios, "Yeah, so? Maybe if your alumni made more money your school could pay the refs and run off a 30 year stretch as the best program in basketball too." They get real flustered at that one.

91_92_01_10_15
03-19-2014, 04:10 PM
I posted this in the other referee thread, but I wanted to post it here, because I thought it was dramatic, and I am interested in your opinions...


Thanks to uh_no for the detailed analysis of the data I posted earlier. I have nothing so detailed, but I did project out the number of free throw attempts for Duke and for our opponents by multiplying the average # of attempts per game thus far in the season by the three remaining games that our #3 seed would project that we would play.

The results are that Duke is expected to shoot 838 FT this year, good for 15th most in the last 25 years.
Our opponents are expected to shoot 795 FT, the most in the last 25 years.

One might have expected that FT numbers would be at record highs this year because of the rule changes, which makes it interesting that Duke actually had a below-average year for free throws, with said average being 882.4 for the 24 years prior.

CoachJ10
03-19-2014, 11:06 PM
Saying the officials called a horrible game and saying that it's the only reason Virginia won are two different things.

If the game had been officiated well, we would have had an entirely different game. Virginia would have acted different, Duke would have acted different, there's no telling what would have happened. Virginia is a fine ball club and they won the regular season outright. That did not happen by chance. Duke played hard and barely held them off in Cameron.

So what would happen in a hypothetically well-officiated ACC finals is a matter for speculation. Period. I can't speak to what would have happened in this hypothetical situation, nor will I fall into a false debate over hypotheticals so that some folks that disagree with me can name call (whiners, complainers, etc.).

You're welcome to think the game was well-officiated, and I will debate that with you. You will be wrong, because the officiating in the game was comically bad and no one is seriously disputing that, but I will debate it with you. But this feels more like changing the subject so you can be insulting to people that disagree with you. That might not be your intent, but that's what it feels like to me.

I think you have helped point out the red herrings that a few on this thread have thrown out in an attempt to misconstrue the point. The simple premise that most of us are observing / commenting on...is the difference between good referring and bad referring. Seems to me to be a fairly obvious part of the game to be evaluated to be honest, but apparently less so than I would have thought. We are not whining indiscriminately about free throw differences, etc.

If you can't posit that reffing can be good or bad...that somehow regardless of its consistency or adherence to the accepted rules of basketball...that somehow its affect on the game is neutral and above reproach...well, I think that is very hard for most of us to understand (especially those who have actually played the game of basketball).

bronston22
03-20-2014, 04:01 PM
Personally, I don't want to characterize the officiating in terms of whether it affected the outcome.

I wish to characterize it in terms of ... it sucked. It really really sucked. In fact, it was a disgrace.

Heck, when Rasheed got in the official's face after getting completely laid out with no call and he utterly and completely earned a T, my response was, "hell yeah, Rasheed." Normally, I'd go bananas over that, but good grief-- missing that call was unconscionable. These officials should be embarrassed about that. Funny we didn't get a replay of it. Not.

Oh, and allowing Bennett to do the hokey-pokey in the middle of our possession and not only NOT get a T, but in fact get a time out? Seriously?

If the situation had been reversed on officiating in this game, this game's officiating would be national, front page ESPN news, and I'd give you odds that at least one of these officials would get one of those quasi-suspensions the ACC hands out when enough terping goes on after a Duke win.

That being said, Duke certainly had AMPLE opportunity to walk out of Greensboro with a title, and just didn't get the job done. UVA did. Good for them. Lord knows, there's about 14 teams in the ACC I like less than the 'Hoos.

Sincere congrats to UVA. They had a hell of a season. They've been criminally underrated. They played good, clean, hard ball, and I really, truly hope they go a long way this year. The only team I won't root for them against is us.


Come on guys, we have to maintain some objectivity. We did not complain all those years when we made more free throws than our opponents attempted. UVA holds the ball and that makes their opponents work harder for longer on the defensive end. That alone creates more foul opportunities for their opponent.

Coach's T was harsh for sure but Sheed's was completely deserved. He shot an out of control 3 pointer and a case could be made that it was Sheed who kicked the defender. In no one's book was that a foul on UVA and to suggest otherwise is intellectually dishonest. Sheed was frustrated so let's just leave it at that.

We are going to have games where we get treated better and games we get treated worse. Now that the only really meaningful part of the season has arrived we should concentrate on playing great hoops and cheering for our squad rather than blame the refs. We don't want to act like the Terps in 2001.

Reisen
03-21-2014, 01:29 PM
Mercer just tripled Duke's FT attempts in the first half, despite Duke shooting well from 3 and massively outrebounding them.

Numerous sketchy / phantom calls made, including on Jabari's clean block. Meanwhile, Parker gets hammered every time he goes inside.

Sounds about right.

ETA: Now Parker on the bench with a charge for his third foul, followed immediately by Jefferson's 2nd and then his 3rd seconds later. We're less than 5 minutes into the second half.

vrob90
03-21-2014, 02:31 PM
For God's sake, no referee whining. Just don't go there.

duke4ever19
03-21-2014, 02:31 PM
No refs to blame for this game. UVA game. Absolutely. This one? Nope.

hurleyfor3
03-21-2014, 02:33 PM
THIS IS NOT A PROXY THREAD FOR THE MERCER GAME. When we think enough time has passed, we'll open up the postgame discussion.

[/mod]

#1Duke
03-21-2014, 02:40 PM
Mercer just tripled Duke's FT attempts in the first half, despite Duke shooting well from 3 and massively outrebounding them.

Numerous sketchy / phantom calls made, including on Jabari's clean block. Meanwhile, Parker gets hammered every time he goes inside.

Sounds about right.

ETA: Now Parker on the bench with a charge for his third foul, followed immediately by Jefferson's 2nd and then his 3rd seconds later. We're less than 5 minutes into the second half.

There have been people here complaining about the refs for the past 4 or so games. There is a pattern here ( our defense ) not a vendetta against us. When this happens in several consecutive games, maybe it's time to put on our big boy pants, be mature, and stop looking for excuses.

Reisen
03-21-2014, 05:12 PM
There have been people here complaining about the refs for the past 4 or so games. There is a pattern here ( our defense ) not a vendetta against us. When this happens in several consecutive games, maybe it's time to put on our big boy pants, be mature, and stop looking for excuses.

No one is claiming some deep, vindictive conspiracy to keep Duke out of the second weekend of the NCAA tournament. But what we saw this season is a stastical outlier. It's already been well illustrated for the UVA game, but let's look at today's game:

From 2002-2014, there have been 208 games with 1-4 seeds playing 13-16 seeds (I chose the cutoff at the 4 seed because of all the 5-12 upsets). Out of 208 games, only 5 show the underdog shooting greater than 6 FTs more than the favorite.

- Today's game where (3) Duke shot 13 FTs to Mercer's 28

- In FGCU's upset of Georgetown last year, FGCU (as a 15) shot 44 FT's to Georgetown's 20.

- Lehigh shot 37 FTs to Duke's 23 in 2012.

- Siena shot 25 to Vandy's 12 in 2008.

- Bradley shot 30 to Kansas' 19 in 2006.

We're 1 of only 4 teams to be on that list (as the higher seed), and the only one to be on there twice. Certainly part of that is we are consistently seeded highly (though not always). But something else is going on. Coach K himself has voiced his complaints numerous times, not just with individual games.

I am completely open to a wide range of answers, but I think this FT differential is a real issue, and it's not as simple as "quit whining". The answer used to be "Duke is not athletic enough", but I don't think that was the problem this year.

Maybe it's an issue of the new rules, maybe it's a reaction to the "Duke gets all the calls" meme, maybe it's our high percentage of 3's, maybe its just this group of players (many were on the team two years ago). Maybe it's "In today's game, Duke's aggressive defensive style of trying to cause turnovers doesn't work anymore". But our offense alone didn't give Lehigh 37 FTAs in 2012, nor did it give Mercer 28 today.

FerryFor50
03-21-2014, 05:16 PM
No one is claiming some deep, vindictive conspiracy to keep Duke out of the second weekend of the NCAA tournament. But what we saw this season is a stastical outlier. It's already been well illustrated for the UVA game, but let's look at today's game:

From 2002-2014, there have been 208 games with 1-4 seeds playing 13-16 seeds (I chose the cutoff at the 4 seed because of all the 5-12 upsets). Out of 208 games, only 5 show the underdog shooting greater than 6 FTs more than the favorite.

- Today's game where (3) Duke shot 13 FTs to Mercer's 28

- In FGCU's upset of Georgetown last year, FGCU (as a 15) shot 44 FT's to Georgetown's 20.

- Lehigh shot 37 FTs to Duke's 23 in 2012.

- Siena shot 25 to Vandy's 12 in 2008.

- Bradley shot 30 to Kansas' 19 in 2006.

We're 1 of only 4 teams to be on that list (as the higher seed), and the only one to be on there twice. Certainly part of that is we are consistently seeded highly (though not always). But something else is going on. Coach K himself has voiced his complaints numerous times, not just with individual games.

I am completely open to a wide range of answers, but I think this FT differential is a real issue, and it's not as simple as "quit whining". The answer used to be "Duke is not athletic enough", but I don't think that was the problem this year.

Maybe it's an issue of the new rules, maybe it's a reaction to the "Duke gets all the calls" meme, maybe it's our high percentage of 3's, maybe its just this group of players (many were on the team two years ago). Maybe it's "In today's game, Duke's aggressive defensive style of trying to cause turnovers doesn't work anymore". But our offense alone didn't give Lehigh 37 FTAs in 2012, nor did it give Mercer 28 today.

Today, the FT discrepancy was nearly entirely due to Duke jacking up 35 threes. Should Duke have gone to the line a few more times? I thought so. But no way was this why Duke lost.

My main beef was with the obscene amount of traveling violations called on Duke, one of which was where Hood got fouled.

OldPhiKap
03-21-2014, 05:21 PM
I think the foul differential has more to do with our players being out of position or getting beat off the dribble. And with more teams playing more zone, we are playing a defense that tends to draw more foul calls.

As far as the list of games from 2002-2014, I assume (too tired to look) that we were in that range of seeding about 10 times. So we are 8-2 against that line. I don't see that as abhorrent.

OZ
03-21-2014, 05:28 PM
I think the foul differential has more to do with our players being out of position or getting beat off the dribble.


... being out of position and reacting with reaching fouls in lieu of good defense. The officials were definitely NOT a problem today.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-21-2014, 05:32 PM
I think the foul differential has more to do with our players being out of position or getting beat off the dribble. And with more teams playing more zone, we are playing a defense that tends to draw more foul calls.

As far as the list of games from 2002-2014, I assume (too tired to look) that we were in that range of seeding about 10 times. So we are 8-2 against that line. I don't see that as abhorrent.

According to Shane Ryan's Twitter feed our defense was ranked below over 100 other D-1 teams. That's a lot of getting beat on the dribble, not moving your feet, swatting from behind, reaching in... Not shocking that we have historically high fouls when we are trying to make up for bad defense.

I'm optimistic that this season is a blip on the radar as far as bad defense goes. To me, that's the much stranger anomaly than the free throw disparity.

alteran
03-21-2014, 05:34 PM
No refs to blame for this game. UVA game. Absolutely. This one? Nope.

Agreed.

Reisen
03-21-2014, 05:40 PM
I think the foul differential has more to do with our players being out of position or getting beat off the dribble. And with more teams playing more zone, we are playing a defense that tends to draw more foul calls.

As far as the list of games from 2002-2014, I assume (too tired to look) that we were in that range of seeding about 10 times. So we are 8-2 against that line. I don't see that as abhorrent.

I like the first paragraph. This is a very plausible explanation. Like I said, I'm not claiming some vast conspiracy here.

As far as the second, while 20% might seem reasonable, if the rest of the field is at less than 2.5% overall, it seems less so. Then consider that the median differential is probably 10+ FTs in favor of the higher seed. Having two games in 3 years where we were at a 14 and 13 FT disadvantage (respectively), is many standard deviations from the mean.

If that's really the case, though, then we have bigger problems than just a loss to a 14 seed. Our players, and by extension our coach, have gone from a position of strength (making more FTs than our opponents attempt) into one of the weakest major basketball programs in the NCAA at FT disparity.

It seems to me, it has to either be the players, the coaches, or the refs/rules. If it's not the refs/rules, why the crazy, highly improbable result two out of three years?

Did K suddenly forget how to coach defense? Is it Wojo? Just this group of players?

alteran
03-21-2014, 05:44 PM
Come on guys, we have to maintain some objectivity. We did not complain all those years when we made more free throws than our opponents attempted. UVA holds the ball and that makes their opponents work harder for longer on the defensive end. That alone creates more foul opportunities for their opponent.

Coach's T was harsh for sure but Sheed's was completely deserved. He shot an out of control 3 pointer and a case could be made that it was Sheed who kicked the defender. In no one's book was that a foul on UVA and to suggest otherwise is intellectually dishonest. Sheed was frustrated so let's just leave it at that.

We are going to have games where we get treated better and games we get treated worse. Now that the only really meaningful part of the season has arrived we should concentrate on playing great hoops and cheering for our squad rather than blame the refs. We don't want to act like the Terps in 2001.

Was this directed at me?

I just ask because you asserted some things that I agree with as if I did not, and some of this stuff is a pretty clear mischaracterization of what I said, and completely ignores the context.

If you meant this at me, I'll respond-- but if not, it's better not to quote someone when you're actually responding to themes discussed elsewhere in the thread.

FerryFor50
03-22-2014, 03:02 PM
New ref complaint: the new flagrant foul rules are garbage.

They benefit teams that press on defense because those teams get to hack and push and put their faces right at elbow level, then get rewarded when they inevitably get hit in the face with an elbow.

Just saw this in the SLU-L'ville game. Hancock gets called for a foul, but gets tagged in the face while fouling. SLU player was making a basketball move; not excessive. So rather than SLU ball, L'ville gets 2 shots and the ball. Lame.

crimsonandblue
03-22-2014, 03:04 PM
New ref complaint: the new flagrant foul rules are garbage.

They benefit teams that press on defense because those teams get to hack and push and put their faces right at elbow level, then get rewarded when they inevitably get hit in the face with an elbow.

Just saw this in the SLU-L'ville game. Hancock gets called for a foul, but gets tagged in the face while fouling. SLU player was making a basketball move; not excessive. So rather than SLU ball, L'ville gets 2 shots and the ball. Lame.

Agreed. At most those contiguous fouls should result in a double foul jump ball as to possession.