Playing time for Dawkins

[AlbertN]

Anybody have any idea why Dre is not playing more? When I look up stats on sports-reference (http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/duke/2014.html), he is second in the team in PER and Win Shares per 40 (behind Parker), and first on the team in True Shooting percentage (.648)

When I watch the games, I see effort on defense. I know he's not the best defender in the world, but he definitely seems more than adequate. Again from sports-reference, in DRtg, he ranks above Cook, Sulaimon and Hood.

Finally, his shooting skills really complement players like Hood and Parker, who are effective taking the ball to the hole. In the last 10 minutes of games when we are trying to use clock (and where our offense has been dismal), my overly simplistic offense would be to let Parker and Hood just take their men one on one to the basket. They can beat almost any player one on one (some teams might have one defensive stopper to guard one of those guys, but not two). When the defense helps out, they could kick it out to our three point shooters, the best of which is Dawkins. And when we play against zones, I would really love to see Dawkins in the corner.

Albert

[Kedsy]

Anybody have any idea why Dre is not playing more? When I look up stats on sports-reference (http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/duke/2014.html), he is second in the team in PER and Win Shares per 40 (behind Parker), and first on the team in True Shooting percentage (.648)

When I watch the games, I see effort on defense. I know he's not the best defender in the world, but he definitely seems more than adequate. Again from sports-reference, in DRtg, he ranks above Cook, Sulaimon and Hood.

Finally, his shooting skills really complement players like Hood and Parker, who are effective taking the ball to the hole. In the last 10 minutes of games when we are trying to use clock (and where our offense has been dismal), my overly simplistic offense would be to let Parker and Hood just take their men one on one to the basket. They can beat almost any player one on one (some teams might have one defensive stopper to guard one of those guys, but not two). When the defense helps out, they could kick it out to our three point shooters, the best of which is Dawkins. And when we play against zones, I would really love to see Dawkins in the corner.

Albert

We've been discussing this pretty much all season on the boards. It's not clear why Andre didn't play last night, but someone suggested he may have been ill. Whatever the reason, I agree with you that it would seem the team could use a player with Andre's skills playing more minutes than he has lately. It appears Coach K disagrees with us, however.

Others have suggested Andre isn't playing very much because of his defense and others believe it's because he's been shooting poorly lately. Personally, I doubt either one of these is true, or at least less true than the simpler explanation that Coach K likes what he's been seeing from Rasheed and Tyler more than what he's been seeing from Andre. Either way, here's hoping he plays 20 minutes of scintillating ball this afternoon and helps Duke win the ACC title.

[moonpie23]

i'm hoping he gets some burn and the promptly burns the hoo's

[theAlaskanBear]

We've been discussing this pretty much all season on the boards. It's not clear why Andre didn't play last night, but someone suggested he may have been ill. Whatever the reason, I agree with you that it would seem the team could use a player with Andre's skills playing more minutes than he has lately. It appears Coach K disagrees with us, however.

Others have suggested Andre isn't playing very much because of his defense and others believe it's because he's been shooting poorly lately. Personally, I doubt either one of these is true, or at least less true than the simpler explanation that Coach K likes what he's been seeing from Rasheed and Tyler more than what he's been seeing from Andre. Either way, here's hoping he plays 20 minutes of scintillating ball this afternoon and helps Duke win the ACC title.

It's not the defense, Dawkins has been playing very solid D lately, with the exception of fouling a three-point shooter. I think it is because he has been cold from three. Even I despite the streaky shooting, he generally has good motion and passing in offensive sets...

I think the biggest issue may be having another ball-handler on the perimeter.

[superdave]

To reach the next level as a team, we need Dawkins playing bigger minutes and we have to run sets to get him shots. He is a huge weapon and we have not worked very hard to use him correctly the last month. Andre would be very effective in a quicker pace game where there's more spacing and more opportunities for transition 3s. I think he is the perfect compliment to Jabari and Rodney.

[Bob Green]

Andre would be very effective in a quicker pace game where there's more spacing and more opportunities for transition 3s. I think he is the perfect compliment to Jabari and Rodney.

I agree and would like to see him takeover for Thornton in the starting line-up: Jefferson, Parker, Hood, Dawkins, Sulaimon. Let Sulaimon run the point with an emphasis on getting the ball in Parker and Hood's hands, while Dawkins is the designated shooter on kick outs, in transition and off ball reversals.

Dawkins receives a lot of grief on this board for his defense, but I don't see him as a liability. He played respectable D today with one exception. He lost Joe Harris on a screen which resulted in a made 3 PT FG for Virginia. That could happen to anyone. The same goes for his ball handling. He made one mistake today when Virginia hedged at the top of the key and he got stripped.

[Duke76]

I agree and would like to see him takeover for Thornton in the starting line-up: Jefferson, Parker, Hood, Dawkins, Sulaimon. Let Sulaimon run the point with an emphasis on getting the ball in Parker and Hood's hands, while Dawkins is the designated shooter on kick outs, in transition and off ball reversals.

Dawkins receives a lot of grief on this board for his defense, but I don't see him as a liability. He played respectable D today with one exception. He lost Joe Harris on a screen which resulted in a made 3 PT FG for Virginia. That could happen to anyone. The same goes for his ball handling. He made one mistake today when Virginia hedged at the top of the key and he got stripped.

Just imagine if he had logged 10 or minutes yesterday Hood would have been much more rested and legs would have been with him....I just can't figure it out, why did K start him against Clemson and then basically ignored for the rest of that game and yesterday was a real insult....what in the world could he have done to warrant no minutes yesterday and really today it was an afterthought that he got in....I too don't buy this idea his d is not good enough or he has been cold shooting....K always says to his good shooters..keep shooting...he doesn't give Andre a fair shot and it will continue to hurt the team in my opinion

[_Gary]

I agree and would like to see him takeover for Thornton in the starting line-up: Jefferson, Parker, Hood, Dawkins, Sulaimon. Let Sulaimon run the point with an emphasis on getting the ball in Parker and Hood's hands, while Dawkins is the designated shooter on kick outs, in transition and off ball reversals.

Dawkins receives a lot of grief on this board for his defense, but I don't see him as a liability. He played respectable D today with one exception. He lost Joe Harris on a screen which resulted in a made 3 PT FG for Virginia. That could happen to anyone. The same goes for his ball handling. He made one mistake today when Virginia hedged at the top of the key and he got stripped.

Absolutely agree. We both know Tyler isn't losing his starting nod at this point in the season, but I wouldn't object at all to your scenario. Rasheed has been driving great lately and I think he could handle more of the point duties and might be better (at least on the offensive side of the ball) at the position than either Tyler or Quinn, both of whom don't push and attack the basket nearly as much. But regardless of who starts, Andre's got to play a lot more than he has in the last 3 days. I know it's anathema to some here to even hint at disagreeing with Coach K, but in this instance I'm doing just that. If Andre isn't sick or hampered by some slight injury, I think he's got to play more for us to have a real chance at advancing deep into the Tournament. Playing the starters and only Quinn the vast majority of the minutes, with only a small sprinkling of Marshal and Andre, isn't the path to success. Of course that's only my opinion.

[wsb3]

I agree and would like to see him takeover for Thornton in the starting line-up: Jefferson, Parker, Hood, Dawkins, Sulaimon. Let Sulaimon run the point with an emphasis on getting the ball in Parker and Hood's hands, while Dawkins is the designated shooter on kick outs, in transition and off ball reversals.

Dawkins receives a lot of grief on this board for his defense, but I don't see him as a liability. He played respectable D today with one exception. He lost Joe Harris on a screen which resulted in a made 3 PT FG for Virginia. That could happen to anyone. The same goes for his ball handling. He made one mistake today when Virginia hedged at the top of the key and he got stripped.

That is the lineup I would like to see as well.

Someone posted earlier about how many teams would love to have Andre as a starter. Great point.

I have often cursed his defense but not this year.

& please no one is bashing TT here.

[Cameron]

Andre's diminished playing time certainly can't be related to defense since we don't play that, but there is no question that his 6-5 frame and expertise as a shooter would've lent well to our attack against Virginia's tight perimeter defense today, as their defense really didn't allow for many open opportunities from outside. At 6-5, Andre is perfectly equipped to create solid looks against even the tightest of perimeter pressure.

In the time Andre was allowed to leave his chair today, he made 3-of-5 shots from beyond the arc. Considering the two missed shots, it makes perfect sense that he only played seven minutes.

As I was discussing with another poster here, not only has Andre's decline in minutes contributed to the depletion of our depth, which was arguably our strongest attribute mid-year, but, perhaps more importantly, it has had an instrumental part in the deterioration of our outside shooting in the past six or so games. Yeah, Andre suffered through an uncharacteristically poor shooting stretch prior to today, but I'd argue that it's primarily the result of his sporadic playing time of late, entering games at the end of halves, being on the floor for a minute or two at a time, and never really being able to get into any type of real rhythm. It probably killed the kid's confidence, to a degree. Fortunately, for us, he seemed to have regained that confidence today.

We are a much better team when Andre is playing well, and he's never going to play to the level he was earlier in the year without getting more minutes. Period.

[MaxAMillion]

Andre's diminished playing time certainly can't be related to defense since we don't play that, but there is no question that his 6-5 frame and expertise as a shooter would've lent well to our attack against Virginia's tight perimeter defense today, as their defense really didn't allow for many open opportunities from outside. At 6-5, Andre is perfectly equipped to create solid looks against even the tightest of perimeter pressure.

In the time Andre was allowed to leave his chair today, he made 3-of-5 shots from beyond the arc. Considering the two missed shots, it makes perfect sense that he only played seven minutes.

As I was discussing with another poster here, not only has Andre's decline in minutes contributed to the depletion of our depth, which was arguably our strongest attribute mid-year, but, perhaps more importantly, it has had an instrumental part in the deterioration of our outside shooting in the past six or so games. Yeah, Andre suffered through an uncharacteristically poor shooting stretch prior to today, but I'd argue that it's primarily the result of his sporadic playing time of late, entering games at the end of halves, being on the floor for a minute or two at a time, and never really being able to get into any type of real rhythm. It probably killed the kid's confidence, to a degree. Fortunately, for us, he seemed to have regained that confidence today.

We are a much better team when Andre is playing well, and he's never going to play to the level he was earlier in the year without getting more minutes. Period.

I think you are arguing that Dawkins poor shooting is not his fault because it follows with your narrative that Coach K is the problem. When he makes shots it proves that he should be playing more and when he misses shots it is the coaches fault for not playing him more often. The argument never fails in this circumstance.

[kshepinthehouse]

Has anyone looked deeply into any advanced statistics into the issue of offense vs defense at all? If you have read the book Moneyball, you would recall a part of the book that explained offense was more important than defense. It explained how basically in the outfield a player was more valuable if he could hit the ball well and be below standard on defense vs a guy who was a great in the field but below average at the plate. Apparently the offensive player would score more runs than the defensive paler would save or something to that effect.

Anyway, my question is, would advanced statistics agree that having a good offensive player like Andre be worth more than having a good defensive player like Thornton? My guess is that with advanced statistics Andre would win out in the end. I'm not bashing Tyler and I know he makes some great effort plays for us but my theory is that three of four three pointers a game from Andre would be more valuable than three of four great defensive plays from Thornton. I

[MCFinARL]

Has anyone looked deeply into any advanced statistics into the issue of offense vs defense at all? If you have read the book Moneyball, you would recall a part of the book that explained offense was more important than defense. It explained how basically in the outfield a player was more valuable if he could hit the ball well and be below standard on defense vs a guy who was a great in the field but below average at the plate. Apparently the offensive player would score more runs than the defensive paler would save or something to that effect.

Anyway, my question is, would advanced statistics agree that having a good offensive player like Andre be worth more than having a good defensive player like Thornton? My guess is that with advanced statistics Andre would win out in the end. I'm not bashing Tyler and I know he makes some great effort plays for us but my theory is that three of four three pointers a game from Andre would be more valuable than three of four great defensive plays from Thornton. I

This doesn't have to be a zero-sum game, either. There is room for Andre to get more minutes without getting them all at Tyler's expense.

[kshepinthehouse]

This doesn't have to be a zero-sum game, either. There is room for Andre to get more minutes without getting them all at Tyler's expense.

Just a question about advanced statistics and which player it would favor. Not saying he should play in Thornton's play exclusively.

[Duke76]

I think you are arguing that Dawkins poor shooting is not his fault because it follows with your narrative that Coach K is the problem. When he makes shots it proves that he should be playing more and when he misses shots it is the coaches fault for not playing him more often. The argument never fails in this circumstance.

Coach K is the problem, imo here, not afraid to say it. I'd much rather see Sheed, Thornton and Andre split time more evenly. Thornton took zero shots in 20 plus minutes, shed scored 2 points in probably 25 minutes and Andre scored 9 in seven minutes. Yea I'd say Andre has the quickest hook from K in many years of coaching and I just don't get it. He's not really had poor shooting prior to today's game he was at 43% from 3.

[Nugget]

Absolutely agree. We both know Tyler isn't losing his starting nod at this point in the season, but I wouldn't object at all to your scenario. Rasheed has been driving great lately and I think he could handle more of the point duties and might be better (at least on the offensive side of the ball) at the position than either Tyler or Quinn, both of whom don't push and attack the basket nearly as much. But regardless of who starts, Andre's got to play a lot more than he has in the last 3 days. I know it's anathema to some here to even hint at disagreeing with Coach K, but in this instance I'm doing just that. If Andre isn't sick or hampered by some slight injury, I think he's got to play more for us to have a real chance at advancing deep into the Tournament. Playing the starters and only Quinn the vast majority of the minutes, with only a small sprinkling of Marshal and Andre, isn't the path to success. Of course that's only my opinion.

Totally agree that Andre should be getting a few of both Tyler's and Rodney's minutes - Tyler bc of his propensity it rack up fouls and Rodney to give him a few minutes of rest. Also, we really struggle on offense with lineups that have both Tyler and 2 of Amile, Marshall or Josh on the floor - just not enough offensive threats to keep people from ganging up on Jabari and Rodney

[Dukehky]

Mas mintos para Dre, por favor.

[mapei]

It's often pointed out (including by K) that Tyler is a terrific defensive player, yet it seems to me that his time is always limited by foul trouble. He must have a very high foul-to-minute ratio. That would seem to argue for more PT for Andre, yet it doesn't. All those minutes go to Quinn. I like Quinn and Sheed lately, but they might benefit from some rest. We could definitely benefit from Dre's ability to score and draw defensive attention.

[kshepinthehouse]

It's often pointed out (including by K) that Tyler is a terrific defensive player, yet it seems to me that his time is always limited by foul trouble. He must have a very high foul-to-minute ratio. That would seem to argue for more PT for Andre, yet it doesn't. All those minutes go to Quinn. I like Quinn and Sheed lately, but they might benefit from some rest. We could definitely benefit from Dre's ability to score and draw defensive attention.

Does Tyler save more points on defense than Andre can score?

[MCFinARL]

Does Tyler save more points on defense than Andre can score?

Not that this isn't a good question--it is. But it's probably impossible to answer without some really complex analysis coupled with some guess work.

[sagegrouse]

Not that this isn't a good question--it is. But it's probably impossible to answer without some really complex analysis coupled with some guess work.

Lessee.... the case for Andre is easy. He scored nine points in seven minutes. Suppose he plays 35 minutes. Then maybe he scores 45 points. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Newton_14]

FWIW I was told Andre was sick yesterday. He did maybe half of his normal pregame shooting today which seems to fit. I also notice he wore a longsleeve white shirt under his warmup jacket yesterday and today.

Here's hoping he is fully healthy by Friday, getting more minutes and getting more buckets. We are a better team when Andre plays 17-20 minutes or so. Much better offensivley.

[Kedsy]

Just a question about advanced statistics and which player it would favor. Not saying he should play in Thornton's play exclusively.

Unfortunately, the advanced defensive statistics available to us (as fans) are not robust enough to make the analysis you're asking about. We just don't know.


Mas mintos para Dre, por favor.

You want to give Andre more mints?

[jay]

You want to give Andre more mints?

If anyone needs more mints, it's Rodney...

[MCFinARL]

Lessee.... the case for Andre is easy. He scored nine points in seven minutes. Suppose he plays 35 minutes. Then maybe he scores 45 points. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Yup. :D But figuring out the data for Tyler is the tricky part.

Don't get me wrong, I'm firmly in the more Andre camp, though as I have noted elsewhere, I don't think all his minutes need to come from Tyler. I just think trying to do Moneyball calculations here is pretty challenging.

[HK Dukie]

Andre should definitely get more minutes. I just don't see any other team beating us 5 on 6.


(anyone have the link to PER and plus/minus....offensively the per 40 advanced stats show Andre as 2nd behind Parker, including defense is the key and advanced stats are typically not as good for that, an example being Battier's PER is absurdly low relative to his value overall)

[kshepinthehouse]

Andre should definitely get more minutes. I just don't see any other team beating us 5 on 6.


(anyone have the link to PER and plus/minus....offensively the per 40 advanced stats show Andre as 2nd behind Parker, including defense is the key and advanced stats are typically not as good for that, an example being Battier's PER is absurdly low relative to his value overall)

What do you mean 5 on 6?

[Furniture]

What do you mean 5 on 6?

TT plays hard. He gives a lot of fouls and sometimes fouls out. K exemplifies TT so the other players of course play tough and make a lot of fouls....

Andre's lack of minutes over the last few games makes no sense to me. I really thought he was sick....

[Furniture]

+/- numbers for different line ups...


Amile Jefferson - Jabari Parker - Quinn Cook - Rasheed Sulaimon - Rodney Hood 3
Jabari Parker - Marshall Plumlee - Matt Jones - Quinn Cook - Tyler Thornton 2
Jabari Parker - Marshall Plumlee - Matt Jones - Quinn Cook - Rodney Hood 2
Amile Jefferson - Jabari Parker - Quinn Cook - Rodney Hood - Tyler Thornton 2
Jabari Parker - Marshall Plumlee - Quinn Cook - Rasheed Sulaimon - Rodney Hood 1
Jabari Parker - Marshall Plumlee - Quinn Cook - Rodney Hood - ??? 1
Jabari Parker - Marshall Plumlee - Quinn Cook - Rodney Hood - Tyler Thornton 0
Andre Dawkins - Jabari Parker - Quinn Cook - Rodney Hood - Tyler Thornton 0
Amile Jefferson - Andre Dawkins - Marshall Plumlee - Quinn Cook - Rodney Hood 0
Amile Jefferson - Jabari Parker - Rasheed Sulaimon - Rodney Hood - ??? -1
Amile Jefferson - Andre Dawkins - Jabari Parker - Quinn Cook - Rodney Hood -1
Amile Jefferson - Quinn Cook - Rodney Hood - ??? - ??? -1
Jabari Parker - Marshall Plumlee - Matt Jones - Quinn Cook - ??? -1
Amile Jefferson - Jabari Parker - Matt Jones - Quinn Cook - Rodney Hood -2
Josh Hairston - Marshall Plumlee - Quinn Cook - Rodney Hood - Tyler Thornton -2
Jabari Parker - Josh Hairston - Quinn Cook - Rodney Hood - Tyler Thornton -2
Andre Dawkins - Jabari Parker - Quinn Cook - Rasheed Sulaimon - Rodney Hood -4
Amile Jefferson - Jabari Parker - Rasheed Sulaimon - Rodney Hood - Tyler Thornton -7

[turnandburn55]

+/- numbers for different line ups...


Amile Jefferson - Jabari Parker - Rasheed Sulaimon - Rodney Hood - Tyler Thornton -7

I had a feeling this was the case-- seemed like it was right when Thornton came back in that the wind just came completely out of our sails. Not saying that correlation equals causality, but it does seem as though Tyler has been having some uncharacteristic brain lapses between foul trouble and that bizarre turnover into the second row.

Nonetheless, I'm not sure Dawkins is the answer unless the question is "should be start trading twos for threes?" Down the stretch we just couldn't get a stop and once we went down by 7, it was a lost cause. Until we can find the right way to tighten down on D-- all the rest is window dressing.

[mgtr]

Of some interest: Quinn Cook is in every single non-negative grouping. I don't make an argument due to that, just found it interesting.

[vrob90]

Quite a few of Duke's losses so far this year (including yesterday's loss to Virginia) have left me wondering why, with the game obviously getting away from us, Dawkins wasn't on the floor. Why leave a shooter with his three point scoring ability on the bench and continue playing a lineup that, for whatever reason, is behind and not able to close the gap? Yesterday's game was a classic example of that. I just can't figure it out.

[duke4life32182]

Dawkins needs to get 8-10 shots a game. Period. However many minutes that is he needs them. One of my favorite players on the team.

[greybeard]

Random observations.

Tyler was in during the first 10-15 minutes, whatever it was, when UVa dominated Duke in everyway imaginable. UVa expended an incredible amount of energy and mental focus in running its offense. An incredible amount. The amount of energy expended on the other end is always there. But, that first half, the energy and discipline at speed of that offense, the balance individually and collectively displayed, was off the charts. How does that compute when figuring Tyler's effectiveness in the manner that happens here?

Dawkins plays best when he doesn't need to think, when he just plays without the notion that he "needs" to get something "right." I thought that platooning brought out the joy in him, the best in him, such that when he was blended with the team's stars he continued to flow.

When Dawkins has an offense that is looking for him to get a lot of touches, and creating touches for him to catch on a few step move out front, he is at his best. We saw that years ago when he would go off. Saw it again somewhat the last game.

Problem: if Dawkins comes in and K were to decide to feature him in offense, there is implicit that the string is there to be pulled, in contrast to true shooters, aka Hood or Curry, who are featured and do not need to concern themselves with misses. If the latter are off more than is comfortable, they come out with the surety that they will be given a complete fresh start to find their game when they come back in. Dawkins has NEVER had that at Duke.

I do not know how other shooters would fare in the pressure cooker environment that the shooter that is Dawkins has had to live in.

Perhaps one can say that other shooters such as Hood, Curry, have other things of high value to add and that Dawkins does not, and thus, that that explains how he has been deployed. The fact remains that there is a bit of chicken and egg here. Dawkins has shown a bit of a game off the bounce--it was there against Clemson, it was there the game against UVa (he did get fouled on that shot, clearly in my view, btw). Would that game have developed more if a longer hook, who knows. Platooning at least sets a non-hook period, however short. If the "team" is playing well, it gets a longer stay until such point as K decides it is nearing it's apex (when he extends, as he does with substitutions, he often ends the run before it starts to wan, leaves some of the upside on the table which seems a great strategy). Playing without the focus on him in a way that most scorers of his caliper never encounter is a very, very good thing for Dawkins, in my view.

This ship has sailed, but I believe that Dawkins would have blossomed if, early on in his career at Duke, K had treated him like a star shooter and let him rid dry spots as a starter against a weak opponent or two.

K might have been prepared to give Dawkins such opportunities to experience such freedom from the hook had the tragedy not occurred. I'd like to think so.

Bringing this into real time, the more the elements that do not foster "concern" by Dawkins about whether he is "getting it right" the better. You know how I think that that gets done.

[Duke76]

Random observations.

Tyler was in during the first 10-15 minutes, whatever it was, when UVa dominated Duke in everyway imaginable. UVa expended an incredible amount of energy and mental focus in running its offense. An incredible amount. The amount of energy expended on the other end is always there. But, that first half, the energy and discipline at speed of that offense, the balance individually and collectively displayed, was off the charts. How does that compute when figuring Tyler's effectiveness in the manner that happens here?

Dawkins plays best when he doesn't need to think, when he just plays without the notion that he "needs" to get something "right." I thought that platooning brought out the joy in him, the best in him, such that when he was blended with the team's stars he continued to flow.

When Dawkins has an offense that is looking for him to get a lot of touches, and creating touches for him to catch on a few step move out front, he is at his best. We saw that years ago when he would go off. Saw it again somewhat the last game.

Problem: if Dawkins comes in and K were to decide to feature him in offense, there is implicit that the string is there to be pulled, in contrast to true shooters, aka Hood or Curry, who are featured and do not need to concern themselves with misses. If the latter are off more than is comfortable, they come out with the surety that they will be given a complete fresh start to find their game when they come back in. Dawkins has NEVER had that at Duke.

I do not know how other shooters would fare in the pressure cooker environment that the shooter that is Dawkins has had to live in.

Perhaps one can say that other shooters such as Hood, Curry, have other things of high value to add and that Dawkins does not, and thus, that that explains how he has been deployed. The fact remains that there is a bit of chicken and egg here. Dawkins has shown a bit of a game off the bounce--it was there against Clemson, it was there the game against UVa (he did get fouled on that shot, clearly in my view, btw). Would that game have developed more if a longer hook, who knows. Platooning at least sets a non-hook period, however short. If the "team" is playing well, it gets a longer stay until such point as K decides it is nearing it's apex (when he extends, as he does with substitutions, he often ends the run before it starts to wan, leaves some of the upside on the table which seems a great strategy). Playing without the focus on him in a way that most scorers of his caliper never encounter is a very, very good thing for Dawkins, in my view.

This ship has sailed, but I believe that Dawkins would have blossomed if, early on in his career at Duke, K had treated him like a star shooter and let him rid dry spots as a starter against a weak opponent or two.

K might have been prepared to give Dawkins such opportunities to experience such freedom from the hook had the tragedy not occurred. I'd like to think so.

Bringing this into real time, the more the elements that do not foster "concern" by Dawkins about whether he is "getting it right" the better. You know how I think that that gets done.

Very, very well said graybeard. He has an explosive step(s) to the basket...you see that in a number of highlights from his freshman year. I go back to two years ago when Rivers was here and there was terrible chemistry on the team, imo and to me it was obviously that Rivers avoided looking at him during offensive sets and the poor guy never ever got in to a rhythm that year. I will admit that his defense left a whole lot to be desired but really not so much this year..To me what you give up on the defensive end this year is more than made up by his offense. and certainly the disparity in quality defense between him and his teammates is more narrow than ever before. Go back and look at all the games when they ran set plays for him this year i bet he has made 50% of his shots or been fouled....just like with the way JJ was used.

So many on here are puzzled by this situation that I'd like to find an answer from the staff on why he hasn't been utilized the way so many of us think he should be.

[RPS]

Problem: if Dawkins comes in and K were to decide to feature him in offense, there is implicit that the string is there to be pulled, in contrast to true shooters, aka Hood or Curry, who are featured and do not need to concern themselves with misses. If the latter are off more than is comfortable, they come out with the surety that they will be given a complete fresh start to find their game when they come back in. Dawkins has NEVER had that at Duke.
As I have argued before, K is a big "trust" guy and -- for whatever reason -- AD has never gotten that trust. I don't understand it, but perhaps there is more to the story than we know (and I'm not a HOF coach). Still, I fully expect AD to be drafted and I would not be surprised in the least if he became a solid NBA contributor. K doesn't miss often, but I think he missed and missed big on AD.

[sagegrouse]

As I have argued before, K is a big "trust" guy and -- for whatever reason -- AD has never gotten that trust. I don't understand it, but perhaps there is more to the story than we know (and I'm not a HOF coach). Still, I fully expect AD to be drafted and I would not be surprised in the least if he became a solid NBA contributor. K doesn't miss often, but I think he missed and missed big on AD.

My take from the Quinn Cook thread:


#4. [In value among our guards.] Andre: No, Andre is not an idiot-savant, a three-point shooter who can do nothing else. He is a good all-around basketball player. who always seems to get to the right place. But he is more a FORWARD than a GUARD. He can play guard, but except as a "mad bomber," he is probably better as Rodney's substitute.

[RPS]

My take from the Quinn Cook thread....
I see both wing positions as essentially interchangeable. In other words, I don't see a significant difference between the wing guard and the wing forward in K's scheme.

[MCFinARL]

Very, very well said graybeard. He has an explosive step(s) to the basket...you see that in a number of highlights from his freshman year. I go back to two years ago when Rivers was here and there was terrible chemistry on the team, imo and to me it was obviously that Rivers avoided looking at him during offensive sets and the poor guy never ever got in to a rhythm that year. I will admit that his defense left a whole lot to be desired but really not so much this year..To me what you give up on the defensive end this year is more than made up by his offense. and certainly the disparity in quality defense between him and his teammates is more narrow than ever before. Go back and look at all the games when they ran set plays for him this year i bet he has made 50% of his shots or been fouled....just like with the way JJ was used.

So many on here are puzzled by this situation that I'd like to find an answer from the staff on why he hasn't been utilized the way so many of us think he should be.

I'm sure many of us would--but i don't think for a minute the staff feels any obligation to provide one to us. :D

[greybeard]

I'm sure many of us would--but i don't think for a minute the staff feels any obligation to provide one to us. :D

You're obviously right but, this is no ordinary situation. You might say that Dawkins' agreement to come early gave K what he needed to get No. 4 and cost the kid big time, big, big time. Then, and I was surprised to learn this this past week, Dawkins was not given a choice about whether to sit out last season; the decision was K's. Now, no one is suggesting that that decision was not in Dawkins's best interest, but one has to see the decision-maker in a very, very sensitive matter as having a potential conflict of interest.

Why conflict of interest. Normally, a coach does what is right for the program period. This was not a normal situation, everyone agrees, even apart from the fact that K sold Dawkins on coming early and forgoing the opportunity to mature and grow his game outside the pressure cooker that is Duke and the priorities that K pursuing a championship put a "kid" in potential competition and conflict with. Then there is the tragedy and he is one of Duke's own.

Sooo, how high a standard do we set for the coaches with respect to how much they were willing or not to fashion approaches this year to give Dawkins the opportunity to not simply fit in but to play the game with the freedom growing up so young, from the moment he declared early, seems to have deprived him of. That, my friends, "isn't exactly a soup question, is it?" Sean Connery in Finding Forrester.

[-jk]

You're obviously right but, this is no ordinary situation. You might say that Dawkins' agreement to come early gave K what he needed to get No. 4 and cost the kid big time, big, big time. Then, and I was surprised to learn this this past week, Dawkins was not given a choice about whether to sit out last season; the decision was K's. Now, no one is suggesting that that decision was not in Dawkins's best interest, but one has to see the decision-maker in a very, very sensitive matter as having a potential conflict of interest.

Why conflict of interest. Normally, a coach does what is right for the program period. This was not a normal situation, everyone agrees, even apart from the fact that K sold Dawkins on coming early and forgoing the opportunity to mature and grow his game outside the pressure cooker that is Duke and the priorities that K pursuing a championship put a "kid" in potential competition and conflict with. Then there is the tragedy and he is one of Duke's own.

Sooo, how high a standard do we set for the coaches with respect to how much they were willing or not to fashion approaches this year to give Dawkins the opportunity to not simply fit in but to play the game with the freedom growing up so young, from the moment he declared early, seems to have deprived him of. That, my friends, "isn't exactly a soup question, is it?" Sean Connery in Finding Forrester.

I don't think you get K and how he sees leadership.

Tragedy strikes. And at least since ancient Greece, we mere mortals (and K - for all his greatness - is still mortal; Andre more so) have had to deal with tragedy. But Andre wasn't dealing with his personal tragedy, and it was making his life miserable. Most everyone could see it. K certainly could. Whether Andre did is questionable.

K made him see he was wasn't dealing with his sister's death, and made him do something about it. (And goodness knows we could have used Andre last season more even than this year.) Andre had options: Quit basketball. Transfer. Come back. He chose to take a year off and return to the Duke basketball team. Call it K's tough love. Perhaps Machiavellian. But Andre had something he needed to learn and K wasn't going to let him not learn it, even it it wasn't necessarily the best for the team at the time.

Seeing the smiles on Andre's face this year - whether on the floor or the bench - makes me think he did learn. We should all have such a task-master looking out for us.

-jk

[Duke76]

I don't think you get K and how he sees leadership.

Tragedy strikes. And at least since ancient Greece, we mere mortals (and K - for all his greatness - is still mortal; Andre more so) have had to deal with tragedy. But Andre wasn't dealing with his personal tragedy, and it was making his life miserable. Most everyone could see it. K certainly could. Whether Andre did is questionable.

K made him see he was wasn't dealing with his sister's death, and made him do something about it. (And goodness knows we could have used Andre last season more even than this year.) Andre had options: Quit basketball. Transfer. Come back. He chose to take a year off and return to the Duke basketball team. Call it K's tough love. Perhaps Machiavellian. But Andre had something he needed to learn and K wasn't going to let him not learn it, even it it wasn't necessarily the best for the team at the time.

Seeing the smiles on Andre's face this year - whether on the floor or the bench - makes me think he did learn. We should all have such a task-master looking out for us.

-jk

But what really does that have to do with whether k is making a Duke basketball mistake in a material way with the way he has handled Dre's playing time? I think those stats we see a little early in this thread support those of us who believe he has

[-jk]

But what really does that have to do with whether k is making a Duke basketball mistake in a material way with the way he has handled Dre's playing time? I think those stats we see a little early in this thread support those of us who believe he has

I was responding to a post suggesting K was acting in self interest - "but one has to see the decision-maker in a very, very sensitive matter as having a potential conflict of interest. "

I was refuting the assertion that K was not acting in Andre's best interest.

-jk

[turnandburn55]

But what really does that have to do with whether k is making a Duke basketball mistake in a material way with the way he has handled Dre's playing time? I think those stats we see a little early in this thread support those of us who believe he has

I suppose that's a question for greybeard... kind of took it from the "Duke basketball mistake" territory into "conflict of interest" territory, which appears to be a bit more focused on value judgements than a tactical discussion of how minutes are handled. -jk's response may not answer your question, but addresses greybeard's nicely, which I believe was the stated intent.

[Newton_14]

I don't think you get K and how he sees leadership.

Tragedy strikes. And at least since ancient Greece, we mere mortals (and K - for all his greatness - is still mortal; Andre more so) have had to deal with tragedy. But Andre wasn't dealing with his personal tragedy, and it was making his life miserable. Most everyone could see it. K certainly could. Whether Andre did is questionable.

K made him see he was wasn't dealing with his sister's death, and made him do something about it. (And goodness knows we could have used Andre last season more even than this year.) Andre had options: Quit basketball. Transfer. Come back. He chose to take a year off and return to the Duke basketball team. Call it K's tough love. Perhaps Machiavellian. But Andre had something he needed to learn and K wasn't going to let him not learn it, even it it wasn't necessarily the best for the team at the time.

Seeing the smiles on Andre's face this year - whether on the floor or the bench - makes me think he did learn. We should all have such a task-master looking out for us.

-jk
Yeah, this I totally agree with. I thought Greybeard's original post in this thread was really good, and still do. Concerning what happened last year though, I think K did the exact right thing. We have seen a totally different Andre this year and it is the most heart warming thing I have seen all year. I saw a lot of Duke jersey's on Duke fans in Greensboro yesterday. Most were Jabari, some were of past greats. I wore my recently purchased 34 and went nuts every time he did something good. Love that kid. He will always be in my top 5 of favorite Duke players. He has endured and overcome. I watched him closely all year and he never once changed. His whole countenance and demeanor was way different than before, and was positive all the time. Whether he played 32 minutes, 7 minutes, or 0 minutes, he was positive and fully engaged at all times, either cheering the guys on the floor on, giving instruction whatever. He even threw something new in yesterday. When Rasheed lost his cool there at the end, it appeared the Duke bench was not aware Rasheed had just been T'd up. Andre walked over to the bench, pointed at Tyler to come in, and told the coaches to take Rasheed out so he could calm down. Tyler got up and headed to the scorer's table, and nothing further was said.

I do feel Andre should have played more this year, but I know K really wants our perimeter Defense to be as good as possible so he rides Tyler and Rasheed a lot. Still think the Matt appearances Saturday and yesterday were due to Andre not being 100% healthwise. I also think if truth were told, those back issues Andre had early on have flared up at times too. When I saw him in the open practice, Andre appeared to be in tip top shape. Was bouncy, and muscular. He looks to me to have put on a few pounds since that time, maybe a half step slower, and not as bouncy as then.

All in all, I think he has had a really good year and I for one am very proud of him. He endured a great ordeal and through the help of K and many other peope he overcame it. I hope he shines in the NCAA Tourney but if he never scores another point he is still awesome in my opinion. One of the great stories of 2014.

[ijtemi]

linky (http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2014/03/16/4772103/after-tough-year-virginias-joe.html)



The article is a interesting read but if you dont want to read it these are the quotes from andre 'ray allen' dawkins and quinn 'no me' cook.

Andre Dawkins: “It doesn't need to be explained,” Dawkins said of his lack of playing time. “As a player, it’s not my job to ask for explanations. It was a tough game (against N.C. State). The guys that played, played well.“My job is to go out there and play, not question the decision. I stand behind the coach’s decision 100 percent.”At least one of his teammates would have liked to see Dawkins out there more against the Cavaliers. “He's one of the best shooters in the country,” Quinn Cook said. “He's a weapon. As a point guard, I try to find him at all times.”

[Duke76]

whether he's bouncy or not or has put on a few pounds is a real stretch in my opinion...he was bouncy enough to make three 3 pointers at least two of them from a couple of feet behind the line in 7 minutes and he darn made another 3 that went in and out that could have really changed the momentum of the game.
put it this way...I'd rather watch and I think we have a better chance of winning with Andre firing 3's than watch our other guards dribble endlessly at the top of the key and then force shots up that don't go in...or at least play a few more minutes than he is getting now

On another note, watching the Baylor Duke game from 2010 now. Its a shame that none of guards have learned that little floater that Nolan utilized so effectively or the big men haven't learned how to pass from the free throw line to the wings. Had forgotten that both Plumlee's were on that team along with Zoubek, Singler, Scheyer...and Andre..especially in this game..special special team our Devils from 2010..sorry for the digression

[Duke76]

wow couldn't link to your post about that article but that pretty much shows Andre's maturity, really really proud of him..makes me want it even more for him.

[Newton_14]

whether he's bouncy or not or has put on a few pounds is a real stretch in my opinion...he was bouncy enough to make three 3 pointers at least two of them from a couple of feet behind the line in 7 minutes and he darn made another 3 that went in and out that could have really changed the momentum of the game.
put it this way...I'd rather watch and I think we have a better chance of winning with Andre firing 3's than watch our other guards dribble endlessly at the top of the key and then force shots up that don't go in...or at least play a few more minutes than he is getting now

On another note, watching the Baylor Duke game from 2010 now. Its a shame that none of guards have learned that little floater that Nolan utilized so effectively or the big men haven't learned how to pass from the free throw line to the wings. Had forgotten that both Plumlee's were on that team along with Zoubek, Singler, Scheyer...and Andre..especially in this game..special special team our Devils from 2010..sorry for the digression

Thanks for the snark and for totally miscontruing what I said and meant. Appreciate it.

As one of his biggest fans I was certainly not dissing the kid. By "bouncy" i meant he looked really quick on his feet that day and had the ability to get off the ground quickly when jumping. His lateral quickness looked really good as well. He hurt his back sometime between that day and the next time I saw him in person which was the Drury Exhibition game. That's fact, not opinion, and the source was Coach K. In the many times I have seen him in person since that practice he has not looked quite as lean as that day and not quite as quick. Meaning, my fear is, his back issues possibly have flared up from time to time and possibly hurt his conditioning. I don't know and Duke never discusses injuries or illness unless it is major. So we never get the benefit of knowing.

Either way he has had a really good year, and no one on this board or planet wants to see him get more playing time than me. In my opinion he is the best shooter in the country. Bouncy or not, healthy or not, I want him on the floor. there is no one i trust more shooting a 3 than him.

[Duke76]

Thanks for the snark and for totally miscontruing what I said and meant. Appreciate it.

As one of his biggest fans I was certainly not dissing the kid. By "bouncy" i meant he looked really quick on his feet that day and had the ability to get off the ground quickly when jumping. His lateral quickness looked really good as well. He hurt his back sometime between that day and the next time I saw him in person which was the Drury Exhibition game. That's fact, not opinion, and the source was Coach K. In the many times I have seen him in person since that practice he has not looked quite as lean as that day and not quite as quick. Meaning, my fear is, his back issues possibly have flared up from time to time and possibly hurt his conditioning. I don't know and Duke never discusses injuries or illness unless it is major. So we never get the benefit of knowing.

Either way he has had a really good year, and no one on this board or planet wants to see him get more playing time than me. In my opinion he is the best shooter in the country. Bouncy or not, healthy or not, I want him on the floor. there is no one i trust more shooting a 3 than him.

Don't think I was making a snide comment nor totally misconstruing what you were saying. It's obvious you like Andre, we all do, just thought you were a little too eager to find support for K not playing him. I confess, I may be too critical of K on this issue but I and others apparently on this thread don't understand the reasoning and wish we did. Obviously you may be right, just wish we knew

[BlueTeuf]

K doesn't miss often....

I resurrect this snippet from earlier in the string to offer my personal observation that Coach does miss often, and on purpose. He brings in more talent than he is willing to commit his full investment - primarily because it's a zero sum game.

He has a pecking order and needs to have a pecking order. He is just not comfortable in going 9-10 deep and therefore some real talent takes a backseat. My observation is that Coach sustains the pecking order by exercising differing amounts of "leash". Those at the bottom of the pecking order (and there for well deserved reasons) get very little leash. Unfortunately, such an approach can be very destructive intellectually and emotionally for someone who is struggling with being at the bottom of the pecking order. The dynamic accentuates as early departures are backfilled with top flight freshman looking to make their mark and then get on with their careers.

This year is especially confounding - because Coach's choices aren't proving all that enlightened.

Re-reading this I see that some might interpret this as an attack. Not my intent. I sincerely believe our Coach has earned admiration and respect of one of the elite coaches of modern sport - any sport.

[Kedsy]

On another note, watching the Baylor Duke game from 2010 now. Its a shame that none of guards have learned that little floater that Nolan utilized so effectively or the big men haven't learned how to pass from the free throw line to the wings. Had forgotten that both Plumlee's were on that team along with Zoubek, Singler, Scheyer...and Andre..especially in this game..special special team our Devils from 2010..sorry for the digression

And yet many posters here at DBR spent most of that season railing against the team as being fatally flawed, "a Sweet 16 team at best," with no "true" point guard and no legitimate big man and playing "three on five" on offense. These posters suggested there was no way the team would be capable of a deep run in March unless Brian Zoubek and Lance Thomas took a seat in favor of the athletic Plumlee brothers because if that didn't happen a team like Baylor or West Virginia would rip us to shreds.

It was only after we won the natty that many posters around here decided how special that team was. It's a potential lesson.

[gep]

You're obviously right but, this is no ordinary situation. You might say that Dawkins' agreement to come early gave K what he needed to get No. 4 and cost the kid big time, big, big time. Then, and I was surprised to learn this this past week, Dawkins was not given a choice about whether to sit out last season; the decision was K's. Now, no one is suggesting that that decision was not in Dawkins's best interest, but one has to see the decision-maker in a very, very sensitive matter as having a potential conflict of interest.

Why conflict of interest. Normally, a coach does what is right for the program period. This was not a normal situation, everyone agrees, even apart from the fact that K sold Dawkins on coming early and forgoing the opportunity to mature and grow his game outside the pressure cooker that is Duke and the priorities that K pursuing a championship put a "kid" in potential competition and conflict with. Then there is the tragedy and he is one of Duke's own.

Someone should correct me... but I thought Dawkins, after hearing of lack of guards, had his father call Coach K to ask if it would make sense for Dawkins to come a year earlier to Duke, since he was very close to graduating. And... Dawkins was a HUGE Duke fan... even trying to convince other recruits to come to Duke. In other words, Dawkins and family called Duke... not the other way around.

[LobstersPinchPinch]

I resurrect this snippet from earlier in the string to offer my personal observation that Coach does miss often, and on purpose. He brings in more talent than he is willing to commit his full investment - primarily because it's a zero sum game.

He has a pecking order and needs to have a pecking order. He is just not comfortable in going 9-10 deep and therefore some real talent takes a backseat. My observation is that Coach sustains the pecking order by exercising differing amounts of "leash". Those at the bottom of the pecking order (and there for well deserved reasons) get very little leash. Unfortunately, such an approach can be very destructive intellectually and emotionally for someone who is struggling with being at the bottom of the pecking order. The dynamic accentuates as early departures are backfilled with top flight freshman looking to make their mark and then get on with their careers.

This year is especially confounding - because Coach's choices aren't proving all that enlightened.

Re-reading this I see that some might interpret this as an attack. Not my intent. I sincerely believe our Coach has earned admiration and respect of one of the elite coaches of modern sport - any sport.

I'm new to the boards but don't consider your comments (or this thread) an attack, for what that's worth. If something makes no sense, we can only pull our punches so much and remain intellectually honest.

Many people have favorites. The important thing is to still treat everyone the same. I've had favorite employees, and conversely, employees I just didn't "click" with. It was really hard to treat both groups equivalently. But it's unfair to not do so, both to the individual as well as the organization.

I love Andre, more than anyone on this (or any other) Duke team. I've seen enough this year to believe he's not being treated equivalently to players our coaching staff "trusts," even to the detriment of the team.

[greybeard]

I don't think you get K and how he sees leadership.

Tragedy strikes. And at least since ancient Greece, we mere mortals (and K - for all his greatness - is still mortal; Andre more so) have had to deal with tragedy. But Andre wasn't dealing with his personal tragedy, and it was making his life miserable. Most everyone could see it. K certainly could. Whether Andre did is questionable.

K made him see he was wasn't dealing with his sister's death, and made him do something about it. (And goodness knows we could have used Andre last season more even than this year.) Andre had options: Quit basketball. Transfer. Come back. He chose to take a year off and return to the Duke basketball team. Call it K's tough love. Perhaps Machiavellian. But Andre had something he needed to learn and K wasn't going to let him not learn it, even it it wasn't necessarily the best for the team at the time.

Seeing the smiles on Andre's face this year - whether on the floor or the bench - makes me think he did learn. We should all have such a task-master looking out for us.

-jk

Thanks JK. It's not that I didn't see it, just not quite as sharply as you've shaped it.

On the other hand, that to me does not get us all the way home, does not get this situation that Andre finds himself in back to equipoise.

There can be no question but that Andre was lured to come to Duke a year early to support the charge to a Championship; everyone here saw that, and saw him as the missing piece. K too. right.

The question remains, did Andre leave home too early because the General called and does that now leave him in a diminished roll that perhaps deprives him of the opportunity to play through dry spots and become the player, the star player, that he might be. Now, people can nibble at the heals of this all they want, but the question lurks. As someone here has already said, good luck waiting for the coaches to answer it. But, I wonder, has Andre not earned a chance to play without having to look over his shoulder in a way that no one with a jump shot like his should have to. I wonder. Wonder I do.

[DukeAlumBS]

Dawkins needs to get 8-10 shots a game. Period. However many minutes that is he needs them. One of my favorite players on the team.
I agree with this. Also Cook need to get involved. Shot selection from our other players has been poor at times from Parker/Hood/Soulamon as well. Cook or Dawkins could help a great deal.
Nice day
Jimmy

[Devilwin]

Honestly, more of Dawkins and less of Rasheed would suit me well. Rasheed loses the ball way too much on drives to the hoop...

[MCFinARL]

Someone should correct me... but I thought Dawkins, after hearing of lack of guards, had his father call Coach K to ask if it would make sense for Dawkins to come a year earlier to Duke, since he was very close to graduating. And... Dawkins was a HUGE Duke fan... even trying to convince other recruits to come to Duke. In other words, Dawkins and family called Duke... not the other way around.



There can be no question but that Andre was lured to come to Duke a year early to support the charge to a Championship; everyone here saw that, and saw him as the missing piece. K too. right.

The question remains, did Andre leave home too early because the General called and does that now leave him in a diminished roll that perhaps deprives him of the opportunity to play through dry spots and become the player, the star player, that he might be. Now, people can nibble at the heals of this all they want, but the question lurks. As someone here has already said, good luck waiting for the coaches to answer it. But, I wonder, has Andre not earned a chance to play without having to look over his shoulder in a way that no one with a jump shot like his should have to. I wonder. Wonder I do.

gep is right here; as reported even before Andre arrived at Duke (http://hamptonroads.com/2009/08/atlantic-shores-star-headed-duke-early), the family contacted the coaches, not the other way around. Did the coaches encourage him to come? I'm sure they did, as the departure of Williams left them a bit short of guards. But that is rather different from "luring" him to come.

As someone posted in another thread, Andre chose Duke twice. And greybeard is right that his coming early did serve Duke's interests at that time, regardless of whose idea it was. Does that mean the coaches owe him something more than they owe any Duke player? I don't know--that's a hard question to answer at best, and one that is really impossible to answer without knowing the content of all the conversations between the coaches and Andre over the years. As a basketball matter, I side with the people who would like to see more Andre. And as a sentimental matter, I side with the people who would like to see more Andre. But I'm not sure I'm ready to say we should see more Andre as an ethical/moral matter.

Regardless, like Newton_14 and others, I am really, really proud of Andre and very pleased to see him handling everything so well.

[DukeAlumBS]

Honestly, more of Dawkins and less of Rasheed would suit me well. Rasheed loses the ball way too much on drives to the hoop...

Very good. This is my point. Shot selection has been horrible by some players including Rasheed. The same with Parker and Hood. A rushed 3 or poorly shot midrange.
Cook should shoot more in this setting. And get Dawkins in there.
Nice day
Jimmy

[jv001]

I think we've come a long way in being able to discuss lack of playing time for Andre or for that matter, any Duke player. In times past, players have been highly criticized during these discussions. There has not been much of this in this thread. As for Andre, I believe that one of two likely reasons for Andre not playing the minutes we think he should be getting are: 1) Andre is not well and by that I mean a bug or the back issues he had at the first of the year. 2) Coach K does not see what we see in Andre's play and by that, I mean he's not the asset we think he is. Or there could be another reason and I hope that's not the case. Coach K is stubborn about giving Andre more minutes. Tyler Thornton is a valuable player for Duke. So are Rasheed and Quinn. I'm of the belief that Tyler would be better in short stints because of his foul troubles. We need him for his energy and off the ball defense, but he fouls way too much. As one previous poster said, Rodney could have been given some rest against Virginia. That would have been an excellent time for Andre to come in. Andre needs to be on the court when Jabari is in the game because of the kick out possibility when JP is double teamed. I hope we see Andre Friday for at least 15-20 minutes. GoDuke!

[Saratoga2]

Rasheed had a great prior game but then faced the pack line defense, where slashing just didn't work. On the other hand, Andre's outside shooting did work and who knows at this point if it would have made the difference. Remember, we also got two technicals which cost us points. I thought Andre and Quinn could give us a boost to go with Jabari and Rodney but coach K didn't appear to agree. In addition, Marshall was giving us strength inside, which we totally lacked going down the stretch. We were pushed around and totally outrebounded.

If we stick with the same approach against another close in zone team with strong interior play the result is likely to be repeated.

[richardjackson199]

Of course I'm not a hall of fame coach and just this fan's opinion. But I'd like to see what our team can do with the following minutes breakdown. I don't think Rasheed needs less playing time as some have suggested above. Rasheed can be very effective at slashing, drawing fouls, defense vs. best perimeter opposing player, and setting his teammates up for beautiful assists. I love seeing Rasheed play with Dawkins, Hood, Jabari, and Cook.

Also, the positions I list below are not true positions in K's system. Many of the guards/wings/positions are interchangeable at times. Jabari is a phenomenal "player without position" as he was recruited to be.

I'd love to see the following playing time breakdown in the NCAAT by "position":

1. Cook 85 %; Thornton 15 % (with Thornton starting both halves to set the defensive tone and attitude first; Thornton also could be inserted in brief stints when the team needs a defensive spark or Thornton inserted "to make a play")

2. Hood 70 %; Dawkins 30 %

3. Sulaimon 75%; Hood 15 %; Dawkins 10 % (For these 2 & 3 positions give a guy more minutes if he gets hot. But don't take more minutes away if a guy misses a couple shots.) (For these 2 & 3 positions sub Matt Jones in as needed to rest a guy; or if a guy picks up 2 quick fouls; foul trouble; or if a guy is really not playing well on defense, etc.)

4. Jefferson 75 %; Plumlee 25 % (Adjust these percentages based on matchups and need for size vs. quickness around the basket)

5. Parker 100 % (for 4 & 5 positions sub in Ojeleye/Hairston as needed to rest a guy, if a guy gets 2 quick fouls or foul trouble, or if somebody isn't playing well).

Go Duke in NCAA!! I hated seeing our "region of death" bracket at first glance. But now I like it and think the challenge could be good and motivating for our team. One game at a time.

[jv001]

Rasheed had a great prior game but then faced the pack line defense, where slashing just didn't work. On the other hand, Andre's outside shooting did work and who knows at this point if it would have made the difference. Remember, we also got two technicals which cost us points. I thought Andre and Quinn could give us a boost to go with Jabari and Rodney but coach K didn't appear to agree. In addition, Marshall was giving us strength inside, which we totally lacked going down the stretch. We were pushed around and totally outrebounded.

If we stick with the same approach against another close in zone team with strong interior play the result is likely to be repeated.

I was about to throw something when Josh was on the court at the end of the game. I love the guy, but he is a terrible rebounder. He was great at getting charges called until this year(rule change). When we did get a stop, it seemed that Virginia got the offensive board. I know Marshall is not a great offensive player but we didn't need him for his offense. We need him to play defense and rebound. GoDuke!

[The Gordog]

Honestly, more of Dawkins and less of Rasheed would suit me well. Rasheed loses the ball way too much on drives to the hoop...

The odd thing to me is, that there seems to be little distinction of how to play differently for different opponents with this team. Against NC State, Sulu was, if memory serves, effective with the drive. All well and good, but against other defences (UVA) there is no way he is going to be able to finish when they do not respect his ability to dish off on the way up. Or maybe when he loses it it's because he's trying to dish but his handle is not good enough. What I am trying to say is there is no pat answer for every team we face. If we have the bad fortune to face Tenn. on Sunday, I hope we will see a lot of Dawkins and not too much of the driving Sulu. Against Michigan OTOH he could be more likely to be able to finish.

It is up to the coaches to predict which style will work better and the players to adjust accordingly. For better or for worse, our coach is very much into attempting to make the other team adjust to our strengths. We know he believes that only teaching M2M D is best so that his players can react instinctively at all times. Is it possible that he only teaches one O strategy as well?

[Kedsy]

Of course I'm not a hall of fame coach and just this fan's opinion. But I'd like to see what our team can do with the following minutes breakdown.

...

Thornton 15 %

...

Parker 100 %

Jabari playing 40 minutes and Tyler playing 6 minutes doesn't sound particularly realistic.


I was about to throw something when Josh was on the court at the end of the game. I love the guy, but he is a terrible rebounder. He was great at getting charges called until this year(rule change). When we did get a stop, it seemed that Virginia got the offensive board. I know Marshall is not a great offensive player but we didn't need him for his offense. We need him to play defense and rebound. GoDuke!

See, the thing is, Marshall is almost entirely an offensive player at this point. Because offensive rebounds are offense. On defense, he does alter a few shots and block a few shots, but since going for those blocks sometimes takes him out of position and since those altered/blocked shots are quite often recovered by the opposing offense, the value of that "rim protection" is ameliorated somewhat.

And as for defensive rebounding, I know I've been singing this song all season, but in our last five games, Marshall has played 46 minutes and managed only 4 defensive rebounds in that time. Against Virginia, he played 12 minutes and got zero rebounds of any kind.

Kind of harsh to begrudge Josh that minute and 39 seconds he played in the second half because he's a "terrible rebounder" when the alternative got zero rebounds in 12 minutes, isn't it?

[superdave]

The odd thing to me is, that there seems to be little distinction of how to play differently for different opponents with this team. Against NC State, Sulu was, if memory serves, effective with the drive. All well and good, but against other defences (UVA) there is no way he is going to be able to finish when they do not respect his ability to dish off on the way up. Or maybe when he loses it it's because he's trying to dish but his handle is not good enough. What I am trying to say is there is no pat answer for every team we face. If we have the bad fortune to face Tenn. on Sunday, I hope we will see a lot of Dawkins and not too much of the driving Sulu. Against Michigan OTOH he could be more likely to be able to finish.

It is up to the coaches to predict which style will work better and the players to adjust accordingly. For better or for worse, our coach is very much into attempting to make the other team adjust to our strengths. We know he believes that only teaching M2M D is best so that his players can react instinctively at all times. Is it possible that he only teaches one O strategy as well?

I would add to your comment about distinctions between our opponents this: This Duke team plays the pace and style that the other team dictates. We typically give what they gives us rather than impose our will on our opponent.

First off, I'd say that's a sign of immaturity. We have some young guys on the team but we also are young as a collective unit in the chemistry department.

Secondly, I'd point out that the way to impose your will on the game and your opponent is mainly on the defensive end. This team does not have a strong defensive identity. We have not settled on any defensive scheme this year that has been sustainably excellent.

That's why I believe that since we are so late in the season, we need to maximize our potential on the offensive end and just try to outscore people (while hoping some of the defensive lessons remain learned). Dawkins fits nicely into that plan.

[DukeAlumBS]

Rasheed had a great prior game but then faced the pack line defense, where slashing just didn't work. On the other hand, Andre's outside shooting did work and who knows at this point if it would have made the difference. Remember, we also got two technicals which cost us points. I thought Andre and Quinn could give us a boost to go with Jabari and Rodney but coach K didn't appear to agree. In addition, Marshall was giving us strength inside, which we totally lacked going down the stretch. We were pushed around and totally outrebounded.

If we stick with the same approach against another close in zone team with strong interior play the result is likely to be repeated.

I agree and have stated shot selection is very, very poor. Your example of Rasheed slashing blindly. As well as quick, poor mid range jumpers from rasheed and others. Cook needs to see this, step up and take MORE shots himself or get it off to another player. I think Cook more active in his game will be a big plus! Plus Dawkins!

Nice day.
Jimmy

[jv001]

I agree and have stated shot selection is very, very poor. Your example of Rasheed slashing blindly. As well as quick, poor mid range jumpers from rasheed and others. Cook needs to see this, step up and take MORE shots himself or get it off to another player. I think Cook more active in his game will be a big plus! Plus Dawkins!

Nice day.
Jimmy

I want Quinn to be a pass first point guard. When he get's in his mind, that he has to score we're in trouble. His best shots are the kick out three and driving to the basket on the fast break. GoDuke!

[sagegrouse]

I agree and have stated shot selection is very, very poor. Your example of Rasheed slashing blindly. As well as quick, poor mid range jumpers from rasheed and others. Cook needs to see this, step up and take MORE shots himself or get it off to another player. I think Cook more active in his game will be a big plus! Plus Dawkins!

Nice day.
Jimmy

This thread and the Quinn Cook thread are redolent of the old saying that the favorite player on a losing NFL team is the backup quarterback.

Except we are not a losing team. And, without having looked, I can only guess that similar views about lineups and substitutions are being expressed by fans of Zona, Kansas, Michigan, Villanova and Creighton, all of whom lost in their conference tournament. And maybe even at Florida, which gacked up a 16-point lead and was lucky to hold on: two missed one-and-ones in the last 20 seconds, winning by one only after Kentucky failed to get off a shot.

[BluDvlsN1]

Personally,I cannot,I will not question K's decisions?
I can only hope to grab on to his back pocket and let him lead me to the correct answer for my own understanding.

I see what most see, Dre is an unbelievably awesome offensive weapon.
He can ignite the teams performance much like a breakaway slam, when he's on.

When he is in the game, while decidedly improved, he still in the defensive liability
category, it appears.

So, he's on a short tether based on a possession or 2, it seems.
If he hit's, time is extended, if not, not.

There are times when I'm personally imploring, more patience,
Then I wake up and realize, I am no where near 1,000 wins.

Unlike Vitale.

[DukeAlumBS]

I want Quinn to be a pass first point guard. When he get's in his mind, that he has to score we're in trouble. His best shots are the kick out three and driving to the basket on the fast break. GoDuke!

That is what he is doing and it seems to not be working. He has done in the past and helped us a great deal. See the above. When shot selection is poor, missing quick 3 point shots. That are rushed. Missing mid range jumper, that was rushed. Or losing the ball, out of control going in for a layup.
His extra scoring opens up the team. It is obvious we need him! It gives us a bit more IMO.

Have nice day my friend
Jimmy

[azzefkram]

Kind of harsh to begrudge Josh that minute and 39 seconds he played in the second half because he's a "terrible rebounder" when the alternative got zero rebounds in 12 minutes, isn't it?

When is it a good idea to replace a marginal defensive rebounder with an abysmal one? Josh has about half the defensive rebounds that Marshall has in 30 more minutes of game time. Josh has the worst DRB% on the team. Our 6 foot PG has a better rate. In that 1:39, the lead grew from 53-55 to 53-59 on the back of 2 offensive rebounds plus Jabari picked up his fourth foul. I thought it was an exceptionally bad call by Coach to put Josh in.

[CDu]

When is it a good idea to replace a marginal defensive rebounder with an abysmal one? Josh has about half the defensive rebounds that Marshall has in 30 more minutes of game time. Josh has the worst DRB% on the team. Our 6 foot PG has a better rate. In that 1:39, the lead grew from 53-55 to 53-59 on the back of 2 offensive rebounds plus Jabari picked up his fourth foul. I thought it was an exceptionally bad call by Coach to put Josh in.

Yeah, I'm kind of agnostic on this one. In general, I absolutely agree that the big man rotation needs to be Jefferson and Plumlee, with whomever is playing better that day getting the most minutes (usually that means Jefferson). Hairston doesn't bring anything else that one of the other two guys doesn't already bring (and usually better). Plumlee has not been a very good defensive rebounder this season (except for a brief stretch late in the year where he was okay), but he's been better than Hairston.

That being said, Plumlee was pretty clearly ineffective in the UVa game. At least one (if not both) of his blocks resulted in buckets for UVa anyway. And he got no rebounds in 12 minutes. It's really hard to say he had earned being on the floor in crunch time on Sunday.

Moving forward, I think our best chance for success is with Plumlee playing over Hairston. But the UVa game wasn't exactly the best support for such an argument.

[jv001]

Yeah, I'm kind of agnostic on this one. In general, I absolutely agree that the big man rotation needs to be Jefferson and Plumlee, with whomever is playing better that day getting the most minutes (usually that means Jefferson). Hairston doesn't bring anything else that one of the other two guys doesn't already bring (and usually better). Plumlee has not been a very good defensive rebounder this season (except for a brief stretch late in the year where he was okay), but he's been better than Hairston.

That being said, Plumlee was pretty clearly ineffective in the UVa game. At least one (if not both) of his blocks resulted in buckets for UVa anyway. And he got no rebounds in 12 minutes. It's really hard to say he had earned being on the floor in crunch time on Sunday.

Moving forward, I think our best chance for success is with Plumlee playing over Hairston. But the UVa game wasn't exactly the best support for such an argument.

I think it was two baskets, but that came from someone else not picking up the slack in the rebounding department. I'm more concerned in Rodney's rebounding. For a player with the athletic ability and experience Rodney possesses he is the worse pound for pound, inch for inch rebounder on the team. With Rodney, it's mental and not physical. I agree that Amile and Marshall should have all the 5 minutes(unless foul trouble) and at times should see some time together. With the porous defense we show at times, we need to be able to get the misses we do create with our defense. It has to be deflating to the team when we do get a stop but give up 2nd chance points. GoDuke!

[CDu]

I think it was two baskets, but that came from someone else not picking up the slack in the rebounding department. I'm more concerned in Rodney's rebounding. For a player with the athletic ability and experience Rodney possesses he is the worse pound for pound, inch for inch rebounder on the team. With Rodney, it's mental and not physical. I agree that Amile and Marshall should have all the 5 minutes(unless foul trouble) and at times should see some time together. With the porous defense we show at times, we need to be able to get the misses we do create with our defense. It has to be deflating to the team when we do get a stop but give up 2nd chance points. GoDuke!

But that just isn't Hood's game. He is a perimeter player, pure and simple. He's not suddenly going to become a good defensive rebounder. That's just not in his makeup as a player. It's one of the reasons that I'm pleased to see that we've used less and less of Hood at PF as the season has gone along. We're a better rebounding team when Hood is not at PF - even if it means Hood isn't on the floor at all.

As for Plumlee, I would still be concerned about the team's defensive rebounding with him out there. I don't know how we have done on the season with him in there versus without him in there (see Kedsy and my ongoing discussions on this topic for reference). But given his stats it is certainly worth keeping an eye on, because he has not had a good defensive rebounding percentage. I think a lot of that is because he goes for the blocked shots (when he can) and prefers the excessive box-out (allowing a guard or PF to get the rebound). But as Kedsy notes (and as was evident) his blocks don't always result in stops and his missed blocks leave us out of position on the glass. So I wouldn't say he's absolutely clear of blame for any defensive rebounding woes.

[Furniture]

This thread and the Quinn Cook thread are redolent of the old saying that the favorite player on a losing NFL team is the backup quarterback.

We will not be having anymore of these fun discussions very shortly!
That's a shame!

[jv001]

But that just isn't Hood's game. He is a perimeter player, pure and simple. He's not suddenly going to become a good defensive rebounder. That's just not in his makeup as a player. It's one of the reasons that I'm pleased to see that we've used less and less of Hood at PF as the season has gone along. We're a better rebounding team when Hood is not at PF - even if it means Hood isn't on the floor at all.

As for Plumlee, I would still be concerned about the team's defensive rebounding with him out there. I don't know how we have done on the season with him in there versus without him in there (see Kedsy and my ongoing discussions on this topic for reference). But given his stats it is certainly worth keeping an eye on, because he has not had a good defensive rebounding percentage. I think a lot of that is because he goes for the blocked shots (when he can) and prefers the excessive box-out (allowing a guard or PF to get the rebound). But as Kedsy notes (and as was evident) his blocks don't always result in stops and his missed blocks leave us out of position on the glass. So I wouldn't say he's absolutely clear of blame for any defensive rebounding woes.

Oh, I know we don't need Rodney at PF. But we need everyone rebounding in order for this team to be elite. I've DVR'd every game and rewatched most of them and I pay particular attention to how we do in blocking out. The player that does the worst job in that is Rodney. I can't fault him on many things as he is a wonderful player and his defense is underrated in my view. I'll really miss him next year. GoDuke!

[azzefkram]

Yeah, I'm kind of agnostic on this one. In general, I absolutely agree that the big man rotation needs to be Jefferson and Plumlee, with whomever is playing better that day getting the most minutes (usually that means Jefferson). Hairston doesn't bring anything else that one of the other two guys doesn't already bring (and usually better). Plumlee has not been a very good defensive rebounder this season (except for a brief stretch late in the year where he was okay), but he's been better than Hairston.

That being said, Plumlee was pretty clearly ineffective in the UVa game. At least one (if not both) of his blocks resulted in buckets for UVa anyway. And he got no rebounds in 12 minutes. It's really hard to say he had earned being on the floor in crunch time on Sunday.

Moving forward, I think our best chance for success is with Plumlee playing over Hairston. But the UVa game wasn't exactly the best support for such an argument.

It was one of his blocks. Guess who the other big on the floor was?

I thought Marshall was adequate in the UVa game and played about as much as expected. The lack of rebounds was concerning but UVa only had 2 Offensive rebounds during his stretch and one of those came on the shot he blocked. I am not a fan of +/- but he did have the best +/- for the game.

[Bob Green]

I want Quinn to be a pass first point guard. When he get's in his mind, that he has to score we're in trouble. His best shots are the kick out three and driving to the basket on the fast break. GoDuke!

Spot on!


That is what he is doing and it seems to not be working.

I disagree. Quinn Cook leads the team in 3 PT FGs Attempted with 163; however, Thornton, Dawkins, Hood, Parker and Sulaimon all have better 3 PT FG success percentages. He needs to focus on running the offense by distributing the ball. I thought he played very well this past weekend in the ACCT. We need Cook clicking to win six games in a row so I'm hopeful his erratic play is behind him.

[LobstersPinchPinch]

Oh, I know we don't need Rodney at PF. But we need everyone rebounding in order for this team to be elite. I've DVR'd every game and rewatched most of them and I pay particular attention to how we do in blocking out. The player that does the worst job in that is Rodney. I can't fault him on many things as he is a wonderful player and his defense is underrated in my view. I'll really miss him next year. GoDuke!

Agree with both of you guys. While he'll never be a good rebounder for his position - a lot of that is just his play style, strength, and attitude - right now he's pretty close to an atrocious rebounder. Not sure if the coaches are not emphasizing his rebounding, or if they are and he's not willing/able to do what they're asking. My guess is the latter.

Will be a very interesting contrast with Winslow next year, who by all accounts is a voracious rebounder. Don't recall that last time we had one at the SF position, but I'm sure you guys do.

[Duke76]

Agree with both of you guys. While he'll never be a good rebounder for his position - a lot of that is just his play style, strength, and attitude - right now he's pretty close to an atrocious rebounder. Not sure if the coaches are not emphasizing his rebounding, or if they are and he's not willing/able to do what they're asking. My guess is the latter.

Will be a very interesting contrast with Winslow next year, who by all accounts is a voracious rebounder. Don't recall that last time we had one at the SF position, but I'm sure you guys do.

George Moses...... 9 rebounds a game...... played two seasons I think, first junior college transfer, flunked out my senior yr 1976 I think....hulk of a man..back then we didn't have much to cheer about for the totality of the seasons...but he was a bright light...for a awhile

[Kedsy]

Will be a very interesting contrast with Winslow next year, who by all accounts is a voracious rebounder. Don't recall that last time we had one at the SF position, but I'm sure you guys do.

I think his name was Kyle Singler (7 rpg for his career). He graduated three years ago.

[LobstersPinchPinch]

I think his name was Kyle Singler (7 rpg for his career). He graduated three years ago.

Hey Kedsy. I think of Kyle more as "hungry" than "voracious" when it comes to rebounds. Now if we're talking buckets.... :-)

I wonder if Justise will be a slightly less skilled but slightly more athletic and hard-nosed version of Kyle. That's probably the best comparison I can think of, if the scouting reports are right.

Would you pencil him for major minutes at SF next year, if his D is as good as advertised?

[Kedsy]

Hey Kedsy. I think of Kyle more as "hungry" than "voracious" when it comes to rebounds. Now if we're talking buckets.... :-)

I wonder if Justise will be a slightly less skilled but slightly more athletic and hard-nosed version of Kyle. That's probably the best comparison I can think of, if the scouting reports are right.

Would you pencil him for major minutes at SF next year, if his D is as good as advertised?

As far as degree of hunger goes, who can say? I'd be surprised if Justise as a freshman manages more than the 6.9 rpg that Kyle averaged during his career. And part of that will be minutes. I don't want to go too far down a road that's probably best left for the off-season, but we're going to be pretty loaded next season, with Tyus, Quinn, Rasheed, Matt, Justise, and possibly Semi and Grayson all vying for perimeter minutes. Kyle Singler averaged 33 mpg in his career. I'll be very surprised if Justise gets as many as 25 mpg next season. Without studying the issue it's hard to say, but my guess is he'll get somewhere between 15 and 22 mpg, at least until he proves himself either worthy of moving up to the 25 range or possibly drops down into the 10 range. No way to tell at this point.

[Cameron]

Hey Kedsy. I think of Kyle more as "hungry" than "voracious" when it comes to rebounds. Now if we're talking buckets.... :-)

I wonder if Justise will be a slightly less skilled but slightly more athletic and hard-nosed version of Kyle. That's probably the best comparison I can think of, if the scouting reports are right.

Would you pencil him for major minutes at SF next year, if his D is as good as advertised?

Kyle was as tough-minded and hard-nosed a player at Duke as I've seen in my time following the Blue Devils (since about 1996). We'll be fortunate if Justise demonstrates even a modicum of the toughness that Kyle had in his left leg, let alone his entire body.

Kyle was a damn worker. A ------- worker.

I'm not sure I see the comparison. Kyle was a 6-9 stretch forward type who excelled as both a three-point and mid-range shooter, in addition to being able to bang inside. From what I've read, the 6-6 Winslow seems like more of a versatile small forward/guard in the flavor of Semi with more of a slasher's game than the Larry Bird game that Kyle had :)

One thing I am certain of is that I can't wait to see what next year's class brings.

[nmduke2001]

I found this pretty interesting; in his mail bag, Mark Titus, was asked to name the college all-star team from different states. His North Carolina team looked like this:
PG — Marcus Paige
SG — Rodney Hood
SF — T.J. Warren
PF — Jabari Parker
C — James Michael McAdoo

Bench: Rasheed Sulaimon, Brice Johnson, Leslie McDonald, J.P. Tokoto, Quinn Cook, Amile Jefferson, Andre Dawkins.

I know people here don't like Titus, but still interesting that a non-Duke "basketball" guy sees Dre as one of the best players in all of the state.

http://grantland.com/features/mark-titus-march-madness-ncaa-tournament-mailbag/

[flyingdutchdevil]

Kyle was as tough-minded and hard-nosed a player at Duke as I've seen in my time following the Blue Devils (since about 1996). We'll be fortunate if Justise demonstrates even a modicum of the toughness that Kyle had in his left leg, let alone his entire body.

Kyle was a damn worker. A ------- worker.

I'm not sure I see the comparison. Kyle was a 6-9 stretch forward type who excelled as both a three-point and mid-range shooter, in addition to being able to bang inside. From what I've read, the 6-6 Winslow seems like more of a versatile small forward/guard in the flavor of Semi with more of a slasher's game than the Larry Bird game that Kyle had :)

One thing I am certain of is that I can't wait to see what next year's class brings.

Kyle was an excellent 3pt shooter who had finesse around the rim. I wouldn't say that he was great at either the mid-range or banging in the paint. Nolan Smith and Scheyer were much more proficient with the mid-range, if memory serves me well.

But I agree about the toughness. There aren't many players anymore who have the toughness that Kyle has. Couple that with actual talent, and that number becomes even less. Winslow is an interesting player, but I'm not sure anyone can judge his toughness until we actually see him play college ball.

[MCFinARL]

nmduke2001

I found this pretty interesting; in his mail bag, Mark Titus, was asked to name the college all-star team from different states. His North Carolina team looked like this:
PG — Marcus Paige
SG — Rodney Hood
SF — T.J. Warren
PF — Jabari Parker
C — James Michael McAdoo

Bench: Rasheed Sulaimon, Brice Johnson, Leslie McDonald, J.P. Tokoto, Quinn Cook, Amile Jefferson, Andre Dawkins.

I know people here don't like Titus, but still interesting that a non-Duke "basketball" guy sees Dre as one of the best players in all of the state.

http://grantland.com/features/mark-t...ament-mailbag/

Wait--what? A comment about Andre Dawkins on the Andre Dawkins thread? Astonishing! ;)

[Son of Jarhead]

George Moses...... 9 rebounds a game...... played two seasons I think, first junior college transfer, flunked out my senior yr 1976 I think....hulk of a man..back then we didn't have much to cheer about for the totality of the seasons...but he was a bright light...for a awhile

I remember George. As I recall, Tate Armstrong was the reason for most of the cheering that took place back then. A couple years later, a fella named Gene Banks played SF too, I believe, and he was a beast. Kenny Dennard was the PF. I suppose I could have those backwards, but Kenny was slightly taller than Tink, so I think that is right.

Back to Andre, sometimes it is just matchups and who the coaches think can best matchup with opposing players. Against some teams (UVA, NC State, etc.), the 2's & 3's are tough covers for Andre. Still, I love it when he is out there just for the effect he has on the opposing defense. I don't recall another Duke player coming off the bench who the opposition paid so much attention too. Best example I can think of is Vinnie "The Microwave" Johnson of the Detroit Pistons back in the 80's. I also love the effect he has on his teammates when he hits a couple 3's, really gets them fired up. Oh, and I just love the kids smile... so glad to see him smiling! :D

[gumbomoop]

[For some weird reason, my iPad won't allow me to "reply with quote" to nmduke2001's post #86, though it will let me do so with all other posts. Leading me to wonder whether nmd is a space alien, perhaps migrating to "nm" from Area 51. Glad to see some space aliens are Duke fans rather than haters. On to my point.....]

Even limiting his team to players who'll be in the NCAAT, Titus left out NCCU's very talented Jeremy Ingram. Even discounting the lesser competition in the MEAC, Ingram scored 27 at Cincy, 29 at NCSt, and .... 37 at Wichita St. Either add him as a sub, or sub him for, well, Leslie McDonald. Unless anyone would care to argue that LM had a better year than Andre.

ETA: I'm disappointed that NCCU got Iowa St. as first game. Tough draw, actually maybe for both teams. NCCU guys undoubtedly plan to beat ISU, just as Mercer guys know they can - can - beat Duke.

[nmduke2001]

[For some weird reason, my iPad won't allow me to "reply with quote" to nmduke2001's post #86, though it will let me do so with all other posts. Leading me to wonder whether nmd is a space alien, perhaps migrating to "nm" from Area 51. Glad to see some space aliens are Duke fans rather than haters. On to my point.....]

Even limiting his team to players who'll be in the NCAAT, Titus left out NCCU's very talented Jeremy Ingram. Even discounting the lesser competition in the MEAC, Ingram scored 27 at Cincy, 29 at NCSt, and .... 37 at Wichita St. Either add him as a sub, or sub him for, well, Leslie McDonald. Unless anyone would care to argue that LM had a better year than Andre.

ETA: I'm disappointed that NCCU got Iowa St. as first game. Tough draw, actually maybe for both teams. NCCU guys undoubtedly plan to beat ISU, just as Mercer guys know they can - can - beat Duke.

Not an alien, though I have been to Roswell several times.

[Cameron]

Kyle was an excellent 3pt shooter who had finesse around the rim. I wouldn't say that he was great at either the mid-range or banging in the paint. Nolan Smith and Scheyer were much more proficient with the mid-range, if memory serves me well.

But I agree about the toughness. There aren't many players anymore who have the toughness that Kyle has. Couple that with actual talent, and that number becomes even less. Winslow is an interesting player, but I'm not sure anyone can judge his toughness until we actually see him play college ball.

Guess I remember it a little differently. Kyle displayed an excellent mid-range arsenal while at Duke. With his high release point and textbook mechanics, he was instant offense from either elbow and 15 feet out on the baseline. I always felt the mid-range game was one of Kyle's biggest attributes since it was such a high-percentage shot and he was able to shoot over almost anyone.