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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 63, Clemson 62 Post-Game Thread



pfrduke
03-14-2014, 10:34 PM
PHEW!

CR9
03-14-2014, 10:35 PM
They tried their hardest to give Clemson the game.

bbosbbos
03-14-2014, 10:36 PM
Scared me very much. I do not know why we always lost focus from 30:00 time point in the last few games. But a win is a win. Love it.

Duke95
03-14-2014, 10:36 PM
That was way too close.

Atlanta Duke
03-14-2014, 10:36 PM
Survive and advance


That was ugly

Tappan Zee Devil
03-14-2014, 10:36 PM
Lordie, Lordie, Lordie.
My heart can't take this

sporthenry
03-14-2014, 10:36 PM
In before the stall ball crowd complains. It was defense that killed us.

arnie
03-14-2014, 10:37 PM
PHEW!

Didn't deserve to win. Passive D once we took air out. This will grab us in NCAAs.

Atlanta Duke
03-14-2014, 10:37 PM
van pelt on ESPN trolling about a foul on the last possession - I am shocked

karmacoma
03-14-2014, 10:37 PM
PHEW!

Second that. Survive and advance. But geez, they have the tendency to make the last 10 minutes of every game an adventure, to put it mildly.

And there's Scott Van Pelt, terping right on schedule...

CDu
03-14-2014, 10:37 PM
Thank goodness we survived!

That being said, we REALLY need to figure out our second half defense. That was an atrocious defensive effort from us down the stretch.

Clemson can sure ugly up a game.

Survive and advance. From here on out, survive and advance.

arnie
03-14-2014, 10:38 PM
In before the stall ball crowd complains. It was defense that killed us.

It's all related! Passive both ways.

roywhite
03-14-2014, 10:38 PM
I give credit to Clemson for the way they played down the stretch. They made plays and hit shots.

But survive and advance. Big play by Rodney Hood to draw the foul and hit the crucial foul shots.

CLW
03-14-2014, 10:39 PM
This team CANNOT close - they lack a "mean streak" to just stomp on someone's throat when they have them down - IMHO its due to a lack of leadership and the team lacks a "jerk".

I also cannot remember a Duke team that struggled so...... much with REALLY bad basketball teams (Notre Dame, Clemson x2, Wake Forest).

Finally, ACC basketball is BORING to watch so..... many low possession teams if it weren't for a shot clock you might not see some teams get into double digits.

Bob Green
03-14-2014, 10:39 PM
Sulaimon played good down the stretch. I'm not sure about anyone else.

Gthoma2a
03-14-2014, 10:39 PM
A ton of posters' predictions of what would happen that didn't work out, but we got the win. That's all that counts.

KandG
03-14-2014, 10:39 PM
Games like this keep happening. At this point, all I can do is laugh.

Also, future lottery pick who made the game saving defensive play in his last game is sitting on the bench for the final possession of the opponent. Quite a message sent by the coach. Hope it sinks in for the rest of the ACC tournament and the NCAA tournament.

ChrisP
03-14-2014, 10:39 PM
Well, at the risk of angering the "finding the grey cloud in the sliver lining" crowd, that was just a horrible performance on defense for much of the 2nd half. We are seeing the same 'ole, same 'ole with this team. Lack of killer instinct/toughness, stretches of really poor defense (like truly awful, terrible, really, really bad), and questionable shot selection and impatience on O. I don't see a championship team (ACC or beyond) here. I just don't, sorry.

Dorks on Sportscenter questioning calls and no calls. Give me a freakin' break!!! That last play was NOT a foul! Not even close enough to be "controversial".

nyesq83
03-14-2014, 10:39 PM
Terrible defense, as exhibited by the "fouls" on the two three point attempts in the first half.

Failure to be energetic vs. the zone coupled with poor D meant a few bad shots with the clock winding down.

Lucky the last play was not called a foul. Not that I thought it was...

Papa John
03-14-2014, 10:40 PM
I guess I can't say I'm surprised at the comments right out of the gate here... Personally, I think Clemson had more to do with the close ending than anything we did or did not do. That was a well played, well officiated basketball game, and either team deserved to win. Glad we toughed it out. Time to beat State!

sporthenry
03-14-2014, 10:40 PM
van pelt on ESPN trolling about a foul on the last possession - I am shocked

Yeah, I'm sure nobody will remember KJ's phantom bailout call against Amile. It is almost like the basketball gods trolling the Duke haters at this point.

Haha, van Pelt trying to back track and them wanting to see the replay on Hood's drive now.

CDu
03-14-2014, 10:40 PM
By the way, I LOVE that Scott Van Pelt has to be on the air after that game. You can just see him seething. He's such an unabashed Maryland homer that it galled him to see Duke win. I think he really wanted the announcers to talk about it being a bad call.

And I love that Robert Flores is busting his chops about complaining about the calls.

duke4ever19
03-14-2014, 10:40 PM
Scott van Pelt is complaining about the game on ESPN right now.

OldSchool
03-14-2014, 10:41 PM
If Duke goes on to win the ACC tournament Tyler will remember that final play in which he knocked the ball away for the rest of his life.

ice-9
03-14-2014, 10:41 PM
What a game, what a slugfest.

The Tigers had a great defensive plan for us, swarming Parker every time he had the ball, and still limiting our ability to take good 3-point shots. They forced us to make difficult plays on offense.

What was concerning was that this game followed our usual M.O. -- decent lead halfway through the second half, and seeing that whittled down to more or less an even game. Thankfully we were able to win.

What happened? I think we were a little unlucky. We had a lot of missed shots that led to long rebounds and the fast break. Our transition defense just wasn't that great down the stretch.

Still. We pulled it out. Hood made clutch free throws, Amile rebounded, Rasheed had a couple big baskets and Thornton made a great strip on the last play.

Survive and advance.

luburch
03-14-2014, 10:41 PM
The "All the calls go Duke's way" crowd will be out in full force.

Atlanta Duke
03-14-2014, 10:41 PM
Van Pelt explains now he is upset about the about call on the Hood drive since there was no contact on the last Clemson play:)

Resorts to the I report you decide defense

InSpades
03-14-2014, 10:41 PM
I don't get holding the ball on the 2nd to last possession (up 1 w/ 50 seconds left?). I mean... I get you want to get the clock under 35 for a potential offensive rebound or whatever. I see no reason to let the shot clock get down so low that you don't get a real shot. Run your offense, get a good shot. Scoring is way more important than running 10 meaningless seconds off the clock.

Thank god for Rodney Hood. He might have a nervous stomach but he didn't look nervous at all on that line. Great effort from Amile all game as well. Gotta play better if we want to win this tournament.

GGLC
03-14-2014, 10:43 PM
We can't keep allowing opponents to shoot over 50 percent.

sporthenry
03-14-2014, 10:43 PM
This team CANNOT close - they lack a "mean streak" to just stomp on someone's throat when they have them down - IMHO its due to a lack of leadership and the team lacks a "jerk".

I also cannot remember a Duke team that struggled so...... much with REALLY bad basketball teams (Notre Dame, Clemson x2, Wake Forest).

Finally, ACC basketball is BORING to watch so..... many low possession teams if it weren't for a shot clock you might not see some teams get into double digits.

It really is strange b/c that used to be Duke's MO. Their guaranteed runs and once they went on them, never gave it back. Offense isn't great but it starts on the defensive end. When they want to, they can get stops. Just seem disinterested too often. If they played defense like the last 2-3 minutes of the first half, they can make a F4. If not, they can lose the 2nd game.

Also offensively, I'm not sure who takes the shot to stop a streak. Went to Sheed today. Most want Jabari but I actually think Hood might be our best run buster. Either way, we just seem to miss that Singler or JJ who can get us a basket when we desperately need one.

enick66
03-14-2014, 10:43 PM
0 substitutions in last 10 minutes of game action. Why?

CDu
03-14-2014, 10:44 PM
Van Pelt explains now he is upset about the about call on the Hood drive since there was no contact on the last Clemson play:)

Resorts to the I report you decide defense

To be fair, they did say beforehand that it was the second-to-last call that they were interested in.

CR9
03-14-2014, 10:44 PM
After all the talk of 'leadership' and 'coaching toughness', I expected Duke to be a lot better than that. But I guess tonight was probably ring-rust, lay-off, etc. Or at least I hope so.

kAzE
03-14-2014, 10:45 PM
Our transition defense was awful in this game, and our execution down the stretch was equally questionable. Rod Hall was doing whatever he wanted. We just can't do anything against quick, dynamic point guards. This is why I was worried about this game.

People in the pre-game thread were talking about this game as if they expected us to blow them out . . . You think national ranking means anything in a win or go home situation? Since when has that ever mattered? Clemson is a good team, and they play us as tough as anyone in the conference. They are defensively one of the worst matchups in the ACC, and they have exactly the type of players that can score on us without much trouble. We don't have the luxury of underestimating any team going forward. We're just not that kind of dominating team this year. NC State has been hot, and I expect another really tough game tomorrow night.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-14-2014, 10:46 PM
van pelt on ESPN trolling about a foul on the last possession - I am shocked

The Clemson player nimbly avoided contact. Lucky us.

KandG
03-14-2014, 10:46 PM
0 substitutions in last 10 minutes of game action. Why?

I noticed this too. Weird to have such a compressed rotation in the first game of a 3 games in 3 days tournament, especially with tip off tomorrow at 3:30-ish.

PSurprise
03-14-2014, 10:46 PM
Scott van Pelt is complaining about the game on ESPN right now.

Next year he can complain against the calls vs. Nebraska and Iowa I guess

Atlanta Duke
03-14-2014, 10:48 PM
To be fair, they did say beforehand that it was the second-to-last call that they were interested in.

ESPN broadcast crew (not Van Pelt) initially was crying foul on the Clemson drive until they actually saw the replay

Van Pelt just said Duke call at issue- then went to Hood call as the problem

This is all about stirring s**t - Van Pelt still saying twitter is alive - twitter is always alive

arnie
03-14-2014, 10:48 PM
The "All the calls go Duke's way" crowd will be out in full force.

That was atrocious commentary by van pelt - his hate for Duke is unbridled.

roywhite
03-14-2014, 10:48 PM
ESPN broadcast crew initially was crying foul on the Clemson drive

This is all about stirring s**t

Yeah, so was Tim Brando on the Raycom broadcast. Then he backed off a bit.

Les Grossman
03-14-2014, 10:48 PM
There was very little of that in the last 10m

enick66
03-14-2014, 10:48 PM
There was very little of that in the last 10m

There were also no substitutions

ChrisP
03-14-2014, 10:48 PM
Huge game on the boards by Amile! Just noticed he had 13 boards!

And Tyler made a couple of just HUUUUGE plays for us tonight. Big 3 at one point and a great steal along the baseline in the 2nd. And of course, that last one - whew!

FerryFor50
03-14-2014, 10:49 PM
To be fair, they did say beforehand that it was the second-to-last call that they were interested in.

Oh, the one where Hood obviously got pushed?

This ref crew was not very good all night, which allowed Clemson to play their Big East brand of defense.

Duke was out of rhythm on offense all night. The 13 point lead? A mirage, generated by a run from some poor Clemson offensive decisions.

No idea what happened to the defense though. Open threes. Poor transition defense. Silly fouls. That's how Clemson got back into it. Not from "stall ball." If they had made Clemson play a half court set and played even halfway decent defense, Duke would have won this by double digits.

Instead, it was a 1 point win marred by some minor controversy. But you know what? I don't care. A win's a win. Survive and advance. Bring on the Wuffies!

CR9
03-14-2014, 10:49 PM
0 substitutions in last 10 minutes of game action. Why?

This. Except for Jones for Bari on the last possession, I don't recall anyone. I thought once that big guy scored back to back buckets, Plums should've come back in.

rfaison
03-14-2014, 10:49 PM
I guess I can't say I'm surprised at the comments right out of the gate here... Personally, I think Clemson had more to do with the close ending than anything we did or did not do. That was a well played, well officiated basketball game, and either team deserved to win. Glad we toughed it out. Time to beat State!

Thank you!! I agree; yes, there are questions to be raised about our play, and how/why leads are whittled away in 2nd halves, but Clemson is a tough match-up for us. Was pleased that we had more of an inside presence on both ends of the floor this time.

Scorp4me
03-14-2014, 10:50 PM
It's unfortunate that the final play with give the "Duke gets all the calls" crowd something to cry about. If I'm a Clemson fan I can understand being upset and I can even understand feeling it was a wrong no-call upon first look (especially if you were watching it there live). When I first saw it I didn't have a clue what happened. Had to watch it in slow motion several times to see.

First I watched the ball and saw Tyler doing what Tyler does...making a heads up play. He knocks the ball loose getting all ball. What is confusing is the Clemson players fall because he starts to fall long before any contact occurs. In fact I wouldn't say it deserved a foul call, but any contact was initiated by him. Only thing I can figure out is he is dying forwards to try to recover the ball.

Would love to think people will take a look at it and actually see what happens...but I guess that won't make money so. Heck the Clemson fans will probably be the most rational about it. They'll go back and look at it and see what actually happened. Everyone else will simply continue howling outrage.

Les Grossman
03-14-2014, 10:50 PM
for Clemson to get the ball into their offensive zone, and quickly

azzefkram
03-14-2014, 10:50 PM
We did the important thing... we won. Not much else to be cheery about. No subs in last ten minutes is somewhat inexplicable given how we played.

Billy Dat
03-14-2014, 10:50 PM
Definitive shot of Hood getting mauled
http://instagram.com/p/ljG3apx6HB/

CDu
03-14-2014, 10:50 PM
Oh, the one where Hood obviously got pushed?

This ref crew was not very good all night, which allowed Clemson to play their Big East brand of defense.

Duke was out of rhythm on offense all night. The 13 point lead? A mirage, generated by a run from some poor Clemson offensive decisions.

No idea what happened to the defense though. Open threes. Poor transition defense. Silly fouls. That's how Clemson got back into it. Not from "stall ball." If they had made Clemson play a half court set and played even halfway decent defense, Duke would have won this by double digits.

Instead, it was a 1 point win marred by some minor controversy. But you know what? I don't care. A win's a win. Survive and advance. Bring on the Wuffies!

Completely agreed. I was just noting that Van Pelt was never actually complaining about the last play - just the next-to-last play. Of course, he was wrong about that play too. But it wasn't that he was changing his complaint midstream. He stuck to his guns - his guns were just off-target.

roywhite
03-14-2014, 10:50 PM
That was atrocious commentary by van pelt - his hate for Duke is unbridled.

Just the kind of tournament I'd wish for SVP.

His Terps lose in the last second and leave the conference.

Duke gets the late game win and he complains about the officiating.

Chew on that, SVP.

FerryFor50
03-14-2014, 10:50 PM
Yeah, so was Tim Brando on the Raycom broadcast. Then he backed off a bit.

Yea. "I'm going to need to take a closer look at that... oh."

sporthenry
03-14-2014, 10:52 PM
Definitive shot of Hood getting mauled
http://instagram.com/p/ljG3apx6HB/

Not sure mauled is the correct word. Contact sure. And after McDaniel's got the foul against Amile, I don't mind it. But not sure that'll make Duke haters shut up.

MaxAMillion
03-14-2014, 10:52 PM
I said last night that I wanted Duke to play Ga Tech. Clemson is not a good matchup for Duke. I am glad they get to keep playing because tournament game experience is really most important right now. I think Duke will play better tomorrow.

DukeBlueHeart4
03-14-2014, 10:53 PM
K just said that Hood was sick and had to be taken out. Are his nerves really that bad? It seems to have happened several times this year.

NashvilleDevil
03-14-2014, 10:53 PM
Definitive shot of Hood getting mauled
http://instagram.com/p/ljG3apx6HB/

Send that to Van Pelt

SCMatt33
03-14-2014, 10:53 PM
Seriously, Duke gave up points in 17 of Clemsons last 19 possessions before the last one, totalling 33 of their 62 points. That's 1.73 points per possession...over 15 minutes...to the 161st best offense according to KenPom. Duke has had bad stretches on D this year. That might be the absolute worst. There is not any team in the tourney that Duke will beat doing that.

A lot of people want to blame the stall ball for this, but the issues started well before Duke had a single possession where they held the ball. You can argue all day long about whether Duke should kill clock and how early they should do it, but when you almost NEVER stop the other team, it really doesn't matter. The problems are entirely defensive.

There are two great things about this game:
1) Duke gets to play tomorrow.
2) The committee is busy thinking about the bubble right now and will likely only know that Clemson made a comeback to make it a one point game and Duke hit clutch FT's to win. They won't get to fully appreciate just how horrific Duke looked down the stretch and really apply the "eye test" to that game.

jdj4duke
03-14-2014, 10:53 PM
Clemson is like Tyler Thornton or a chigger. Under your skin, interminable, and there's no relief. That would be van Pelt also.

luburch
03-14-2014, 10:53 PM
Andy Glockner may be the biggest Duke hater out there. Not to mention he's quite arrogant.

@AndyGlockner: @DukeForum What real stories? Duke's terrible NCAA tournament underachievement over the last decade?

ChrisP
03-14-2014, 10:54 PM
Definitive shot of Hood getting mauled
http://instagram.com/p/ljG3apx6HB/

Awesome find! Thanks for posting. Chew on that, haters!!!

FerryFor50
03-14-2014, 10:54 PM
K just said that Hood was sick and had to be taken out. Are his nerves really that bad? It seems to have happened several times this year.

I don't think it's nerves. I think when he takes a hard shot to the midsection/chest, it kicks it off a bit. Saw it in the Syracuse game at Cameron. He got hit and had to go puke. This time, same thing. Maybe that combined with conditioning?

Billy Dat
03-14-2014, 10:54 PM
Not sure mauled is the correct word. Contact sure. And after McDaniel's got the foul against Amile, I don't mind it. But not sure that'll make Duke haters shut up.

I don't know, dude, McDaniels basically cross body blocks him...hard.

CDu
03-14-2014, 10:55 PM
Definitive shot of Hood getting mauled
http://instagram.com/p/ljG3apx6HB/

Definitely a foul. I wouldn't call it a mauling - McDaniels just ran into Hood. But definitely a foul. No doubt about it. Easy call. Official was right there. No question.

g-money
03-14-2014, 10:56 PM
This team CANNOT close - they lack a "mean streak" to just stomp on someone's throat when they have them down - IMHO its due to a lack of leadership and the team lacks a "jerk".

You know, I don't think our guys need a jerk to lead them. What they *do* need is the ability to trust each other late in the game. As we've continued to struggle in end-game situations, I keep waiting for our guys to get comfortable enough with each other to break out of the tendency to go 1:1 and work the ball for a good shot instead. It hasn't happened yet.

Stall ball, for all its merits, increases the chance that we will jack up a bad shot at the end of a shot clock (or, God forbid, the game).

This definitely has the potential to be the Achilles heel of this year's team. Obviously, I hope I'm wrong.

The OAD rule has some culpability here. It can take years for a team to gel. One year simply isn't enough.

gcashwell
03-14-2014, 10:56 PM
I think this team is different from past teams in that it is fed by offensive intensity and execution instead of defense. These guys do not respond well to stall ball, and while it has worked for every other team, it doesn't for this one, so it's time to stop.

I thought we played well. Glad to get the W.

DU82
03-14-2014, 10:56 PM
Awesome find! Thanks for posting. Chew on that, haters!!!

The ACC Network feed provided a replay, and both announcers agreed it was clearly a foul. On the last play, we got one quick replay, Cory. Saying there was too much contact for it not to be a foul, then sign off.

jacone21
03-14-2014, 10:56 PM
I don't know, dude, McDaniels basically cross body blocks him...hard.

But the haters will look right at that and see something completely different. Hate goggles do funny things to the vision.

ChrisP
03-14-2014, 10:57 PM
Not sure mauled is the correct word. Contact sure. And after McDaniel's got the foul against Amile, I don't mind it. But not sure that'll make Duke haters shut up.

Can we at least agree it was an OBVIOUS foul? The true haters will never shut up even though that video should do it.

duke96
03-14-2014, 10:57 PM
Definitive shot of Hood getting mauled
http://instagram.com/p/ljG3apx6HB/

Great post. Just what I was hoping to see. I think mauled is a pretty fair description!

tbyers11
03-14-2014, 10:58 PM
Definitive shot of Hood getting mauled
http://instagram.com/p/ljG3apx6HB/

Thanks for link. KJ reached and initiated contact with his shoulder. It wasn't a lot and Rodney sold it but when you reach first that is a foul every time especially this year. If KJ had just bodied Rodney with his shoulder I think it would have been a much more questionable call.

Let's see if Van Pelt puts this on SportsCenter

Newton_14
03-14-2014, 10:58 PM
In before the stall ball crowd complains. It was defense that killed us.

To clarify, it was our defense in the last 5 minutes that turned it into a close game. We had a 9 point lead with 5 minutes to go but only got one stop the remainder of the game. Now credit Clemson for making two 3's during that stretch, because they were pressure shots. Outside of that we were way too weak with our defensive attempts on the Hall drives and on the drive where Hood tried to take a charge instead of challenging the shot. I hate that strategy when the Duke defender is 6'8 and above.

Prior to that we had played really good defense. Which is why we were able to get 13 and 9 point leads in the second half. Our guys played strong which is why they won. Make no mistake about it. Clemson fans can cry about the last two calls (ESPN Can too. They already are in fact) but I don't care. Tyler stripped Hall before he could even get a shot up. Did Rasheed foul him? Maybe but that contact came after Hall had already been stripped. Shame on us for not doubling Hall there first of all, and then inexplicably letting him get a full head of steam to easily go the length of the floor in less than the 3.8 seconds left. Really bad defensive call there.

At any rate, our guys certainly played well enough to win that game. My question for Browning is, why can't they bring that level of intensity and intelligence every game? That team is plenty talented to be in the Dance but when you only decide to turn it on when it's Duke on the other side this is what happens. I watched them several times this year and their role players including Hall played like crap and did nothing on offense. Hall turns iinto Chris Paul every time they play Duke. Hey pal, play like that all the time!

Survive and Advance! As we got down to the last minute, I reminded mysellf these are the type games we have won all year. UVA, Maryland, Syracuse. Now Clemson in the ACC Tourney. I felt good at that point even though Clemson was playing perfect. Props to Hood for knocking down the winning free throws under extreme pressure and props to Tyler for getting the game saving steal.

On to the semi's!

Go Duke!

Papa John
03-14-2014, 10:58 PM
This ref crew was not very good all night, which allowed Clemson to play their Big East brand of defense.

Respectfully disagree... This was a very even, well-officiated game. You basically knew what contact would be whistled on both ends, and the whistles were very consistent throughout. You want to see a horrendously officiated game? Go back and rewatch our game against UNC in Chapel Hill earlier this year--that was a horrendously officiated basketball game...

SCMatt33
03-14-2014, 10:59 PM
Definitely a foul. I wouldn't call it a mauling - McDaniels just ran into Hood. But definitely a foul. No doubt about it. Easy call. Official was right there. No question.

It was a foul, but Hood had to do a good job selling it. They were running nearly parallel to each other. No way there was enough contact to knock him over like that, but it was definitely a foul. Probably wouldn't have been called if Hood doesn't go down.

CDu
03-14-2014, 11:00 PM
Can we at least agree it was an OBVIOUS foul? The true haters will never shut up even though that video should do it.

I've gotten past the "Duke gets all the calls" complaint. Haters gonna hate. And you know what? I WANT Duke to get all the calls. All the complaining doesn't change the results, so I just try to laugh it off at this point.

Atlanta Duke
03-14-2014, 11:02 PM
K just said that Hood was sick and had to be taken out. Are his nerves really that bad? It seems to have happened several times this year.

Greatest basketball player of them all had the same problem

If he threw up before a big game, the Celtics were sure everything would be all right. If he didn't, then Boston's coach, Red Auerbach, would tell Russell to go back to the toilet—order him to throw up.

http://si.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1015865/4/index.htm

roywhite
03-14-2014, 11:02 PM
To clarify, it was our defense in the last 5 minutes that turned it into a close game. We had a 9 point lead with 5 minutes to go but only got one stop the remainder of the game. Now credit Clemson for making two 3's during that stretch, because they were pressure shots. Outside of that we were way too weak with our defensive attempts on the Hall drives and on the drive where Hood tried to take a charge instead of challenging the shot. I hate that strategy when the Duke defender is 6'8 and above.

Prior to that we had played really good defense. Which is why we were able to get 13 and 9 point leads in the second half. Our guys played strong which is why they won. Make no mistake about it. Clemson fans can cry about the last two calls (ESPN Can too. They already are in fact) but I don't care. Tyler stripped Hall before he could even get a shot up. Did Rasheed foul him? Maybe but that contact came after Hall had already been stripped. Shame on us for not doubling Hall there first of Hall, and then inexplicably letting him get a full head of steam to easily go the length of the floor in less than the 3.8 seconds left. Really bad defensive call there.

At any rate, our guys certainly played well enough to win that game. My question for Browning is, why can't they bring that level of intensity and intelligence every game? That team is plenty talented to be in the Dance but when you only decide to turn it on when it's Duke on the other side this is what happens. I watched them several times this year and their role players including Hall played like crap and did nothing on offense. Hall turns iinto Chris Paul every time they play Duke. Hey pal, play like that all the time!

Survive and Advance! As we got down to the last minute, I reminded mysellf these are the type games we have won all year. UVA, Maryland, Syracuse. Now Clemson in the ACC Tourney. I felt good at that point even though Clemson was playing perfect. Props to Hood for knocking down the winning free throws under extreme pressure and props to Tyler for getting the game saving steal.

On to the semi's!

Go Duke!

Great post, Mark, and I highlighted a few comments.

I have to wonder just how Clemson lost so many games, and even got blown out a time or two. Obviously, they don't play like that against everybody.

FerryFor50
03-14-2014, 11:02 PM
Respectfully disagree... This was a very even, well-officiated game. You basically knew what contact would be whistled on both ends, and the whistles were very consistent throughout. You want to see a horrendously officiated game? Go back and rewatch our game against UNC in Chapel Hill earlier this year--that was a horrendously officiated basketball game...

I never said it was horrendous. I said it wasn't very well officiated. :)

By that, I mean that there were lots of fouls that were not called fouls. Very physical game. Just 26 total fouls (13 for each team). Not a lot considering how many bodies went flying.

And yes, the UNC-CH game was horrendous.

moonpie23
03-14-2014, 11:03 PM
let em whine........

i felt like this was going to be ugly...i'll take the win...



tomorrow.....TJ is gonna try to glow like kryptonite.........


hope we got some juice in the tank....

jacone21
03-14-2014, 11:04 PM
I've gotten past the "Duke gets all the calls" complaint. Haters gonna hate. And you know what? I WANT Duke to get all the calls. All the complaining doesn't change the results, so I just try to laugh it off at this point.

Exactly! Let them stew. I mean... what do we expect? Loving respect? Nah... let them breathe the acrid smoke of their impotent burning hateful guts.

Joseph
03-14-2014, 11:04 PM
I guess I can't say I'm surprised at the comments right out of the gate here... Personally, I think Clemson had more to do with the close ending than anything we did or did not do. That was a well played, well officiated basketball game, and either team deserved to win. Glad we toughed it out. Time to beat State!

State will advance if we play same way tomorrow. Very few games have we played with passion and intensity. K got them playing one on one basketball. We don't look like a team. Hard to watch still love the Blue devils.

FerryFor50
03-14-2014, 11:04 PM
I've gotten past the "Duke gets all the calls" complaint. Haters gonna hate. And you know what? I WANT Duke to get all the calls. All the complaining doesn't change the results, so I just try to laugh it off at this point.

The more calls you get, the better your chance to win. :)

Saw a comment that K mentioned they were tired at the end of the game...

Maybe try subbing more regularly in the last 10 min? LINE CHANGES

tbyers11
03-14-2014, 11:05 PM
To clarify, it was our defense in the last 5 minutes that turned it into a close game. We had a 9 point lead with 5 minutes to go but only got one stop the remainder of the game. Now credit Clemson for making two 3's during that stretch, because they were pressure shots. Outside of that we were way too weak with our defensive attempts on the Hall drives and on the drive where Hood tried to take a charge instead of challenging the shot. I hate that strategy when the Duke defender is 6'8 and above.

Prior to that we had played really good defense. Which is why we were able to get 13 and 9 point leads in the second half. Our guys played strong which is why they won. Make no mistake about it. Clemson fans can cry about the last two calls (ESPN Can too. They already are in fact) but I don't care. Tyler stripped Hall before he could even get a shot up. Did Rasheed foul him? Maybe but that contact came after Hall had already been stripped. Shame on us for not doubling Hall there first of all, and then inexplicably letting him get a full head of steam to easily go the length of the floor in less than the 3.8 seconds left. Really bad defensive call there.

At any rate, our guys certainly played well enough to win that game. My question for Browning is, why can't they bring that level of intensity and intelligence every game? That team is plenty talented to be in the Dance but when you only decide to turn it on when it's Duke on the other side this is what happens. I watched them several times this year and their role players including Hall played like crap and did nothing on offense. Hall turns iinto Chris Paul every time they play Duke. Hey pal, play like that all the time!

Survive and Advance! As we got down to the last minute, I reminded mysellf these are the type games we have won all year. UVA, Maryland, Syracuse. Now Clemson in the ACC Tourney. I felt good at that point even though Clemson was playing perfect. Props to Hood for knocking down the winning free throws under extreme pressure and props to Tyler for getting the game saving steal.

On to the semi's!

Go Duke!

Agree with most everything you said. D was good to very good the majority of the first 32 min. Then, especially the transition D, was horrific. Clemson did hit the two threes (that they hadn't been hitting most of the game) that evaporated the lead instantly but it was mostly our bad D. Were we tired? Seems like it. A few more subs down the stretch would have likely helped.

As to the bolded part above Rasheed didn't even touch Hall on the final play. No ifs ands or buts on the replay.

hurleyfor3
03-14-2014, 11:05 PM
Greatest basketball player of them all had the same problem

If he threw up before a big game, the Celtics were sure everything would be all right. If he didn't, then Boston's coach, Red Auerbach, would tell Russell to go back to the toilet—order him to throw up.

We clearly need some sort of "Has Rodney Hood barfed yet" possession-arrow-indicator type thing.

NashvilleDevil
03-14-2014, 11:05 PM
Like Newton stated above, I thought the defense was pretty good until five minutes to go. Then Duke kind of lost their way on both sides of the ball. After last year's exit on a Friday I'll take this win and hope to see the same effort against State that they had in Cameron.

Billy Dat
03-14-2014, 11:06 PM
To clarify, it was our defense in the last 5 minutes that turned it into a close game. We had a 9 point lead with 5 minutes to go but only got one stop the remainder of the game. Now credit Clemson for making two 3's during that stretch, because they were pressure shots. Outside of that we were way too weak with our defensive attempts on the Hall drives and on the drive where Hood tried to take a charge instead of challenging the shot. I hate that strategy when the Duke defender is 6'8 and above.

Prior to that we had played really good defense. Which is why we were able to get 13 and 9 point leads in the second half. Our guys played strong which is why they won. Make no mistake about it. Clemson fans can cry about the last two calls (ESPN Can too. They already are in fact) but I don't care. Tyler stripped Hall before he could even get a shot up. Did Rasheed foul him? Maybe but that contact came after Hall had already been stripped. Shame on us for not doubling Hall there first of all, and then inexplicably letting him get a full head of steam to easily go the length of the floor in less than the 3.8 seconds left. Really bad defensive call there.

At any rate, our guys certainly played well enough to win that game. My question for Browning is, why can't they bring that level of intensity and intelligence every game? That team is plenty talented to be in the Dance but when you only decide to turn it on when it's Duke on the other side this is what happens. I watched them several times this year and their role players including Hall played like crap and did nothing on offense. Hall turns iinto Chris Paul every time they play Duke. Hey pal, play like that all the time!

Survive and Advance! As we got down to the last minute, I reminded mysellf these are the type games we have won all year. UVA, Maryland, Syracuse. Now Clemson in the ACC Tourney. I felt good at that point even though Clemson was playing perfect. Props to Hood for knocking down the winning free throws under extreme pressure and props to Tyler for getting the game saving steal.

On to the semi's!

Go Duke!

I agree with all of this Newton. Frankly, at some point in the second half, Clemson suddenly came ALIVE...their pace picked up, they had a spring in their step, they were playing with an edge...it was like a light switch flipped. It was a very sudden change, and that's when they started to come back. Our D in the last 5 minutes was really bad, but I was admiring it for much of the rest of the game. Whatever...its a hallmark of this team...and it may be our undoing eventually....but we're playing tomorrow!!!!

FerryFor50
03-14-2014, 11:06 PM
Agree with most everything you said. D was good to very good the majority of the first 32 min. Then, especially the transition D, was horrific. Clemson did hit the two threes (that they hadn't been hitting most of the game) that evaporated the lead instantly but it was mostly our bad D.

As to the bolded part above Rasheed didn't even touch Hall on the final play. No ifs ands or buts on the replay.

It was actually TT that knocked the ball away. Then Hall fell into a Duke defender. No foul.

Native
03-14-2014, 11:06 PM
Survive and advance. Next play.

1999ballboy
03-14-2014, 11:07 PM
New from Van Pelt on Twitter:

"Thanks to @crazietalker for angle of Hood play. Foul. No question. Never saw it before we came on Correct call."

Good on him to admit that it was a definite foul. I still find it very odd that they couldn't produce the correct angle. I saw it in slow motion on WRAL at least 10 minutes before he started terping about it.

duke4ever19
03-14-2014, 11:07 PM
Over on IC they were claiming that Hood just fell down, no contact, and the refs called it. Then someone linked to the video and now it has quickly changed to a claim of offensive foul on Hood for too much contact. :rolleyes: hmmmm

sporthenry
03-14-2014, 11:08 PM
To clarify, it was our defense in the last 5 minutes that turned it into a close game. We had a 9 point lead with 5 minutes to go but only got one stop the remainder of the game. Now credit Clemson for making two 3's during that stretch, because they were pressure shots. Outside of that we were way too weak with our defensive attempts on the Hall drives and on the drive where Hood tried to take a charge instead of challenging the shot. I hate that strategy when the Duke defender is 6'8 and above.

Prior to that we had played really good defense. Which is why we were able to get 13 and 9 point leads in the second half. Our guys played strong which is why they won. Make no mistake about it. Clemson fans can cry about the last two calls (ESPN Can too. They already are in fact) but I don't care. Tyler stripped Hall before he could even get a shot up. Did Rasheed foul him? Maybe but that contact came after Hall had already been stripped. Shame on us for not doubling Hall there first of all, and then inexplicably letting him get a full head of steam to easily go the length of the floor in less than the 3.8 seconds left. Really bad defensive call there.


Yeah, I went back and looked at this after Duke lost to UNC and for whatever reason, at some point in the 2nd half, Duke's D falls apart. Maybe its fatigue and the lack of substitution or Duke lets the foot off the gas or maybe Duke doesn't want to foul. Either way, this is what I found.



But it wasn't just this game (UNC) but seemingly any close game. Duke just can't seem to stop the other team when it matters. And I'm sure some of that is just how I remember things but looking back, Duke has 2 wins in ACC play that weren't by double digits (ignoring that some games might have been within 10 before a team started to foul). And lets remember those games were UVA and MD where Duke did as much to lose those games as they did win.

UVA scored 20 points of a total of 65 in the last 6:38 for 1.62 Points per possession (compared to 1.07 for the game). MD scored 25 points over the final 12 minutes and scored at 1.29 PPP (compared to .97 for the game). UNC scored 25 points over the final 7 minutes scoring a ridiculous 2.30 PPP. After 53-49, UNC only had 1 empty possession the rest of the game. Even ignoring the last minute of play where Duke intentionally fouled, UNC scored at 1.91 PPP. In OT, Syracuse scored 13 points on 8 possessions for 1.625 PPP. Even going back to Notre Dame, with 8 minutes left and a 60-58 game, Notre Dame scored 21 points for 1.5 PPP and that isn't including ND's 12 points in 5 possessions which happened with 15 minutes left.

I'm sure I can get allegations of cherry picking data a bit. Sure, but I don't have faith in this team to get a stop either at the end of a game or to just quell a momentum shift.

BlueDevilBrowns
03-14-2014, 11:09 PM
We clearly need some sort of "Has Rodney Hood barfed yet" possession-arrow-indicator type thing.

Rodney can barf anytime he wants as far as I'm concerned, just as long as it's not in the gutter.:D

SCMatt33
03-14-2014, 11:09 PM
New from Van Pelt on Twitter:

"Thanks to @crazietalker for angle of Hood play. Foul. No question. Never saw it before we came on Correct call."

Good on him to admit that it was a definite foul. I still find it very odd that they couldn't produce the correct angle. I saw it in slow motion on WRAL at least 10 minutes before he started terping about it.

He doesn't get a "good on it" until he says that on air. Still leaving viewers thinking that there's some conspiracy and Duke fans are jerks for it.

Edit: the replay made it to air an Van Pelt said he thought there was contact.

Papa John
03-14-2014, 11:09 PM
I never said it was horrendous. I said it wasn't very well officiated. :)

By that, I mean that there were lots of fouls that were not called fouls. Very physical game. Just 26 total fouls (13 for each team). Not a lot considering how many bodies went flying.

And yes, the UNC-CH game was horrendous.

Okay, I can concede that... It was a very physical game--they let them play. I guess I have less of a problem with calling it loosely, as long as you are calling it consistently. As long as the players on the floor know what contact is being allowed and what contact is being whistled, and it's consistent on both ends of the floor, I'm cool with that...

tbyers11
03-14-2014, 11:09 PM
It was actually TT that knocked the ball away. Then Hall fell into a Duke defender. No foul.

Yeah, I know. I watched several times on replay. I agreed with Newton14 assessment there. I was pointing out that Sheed never touched him. Hall never fell into him either. After TT stripped the ball, Hall jumped in the air and missed Rasheed totally.

hurleyfor3
03-14-2014, 11:09 PM
The bright side is this: if it weren't for the whole who-got-fouled-when deal, we and espn would be on the Rodney Hood Gastrointestinal Vigil.

Newton_14
03-14-2014, 11:10 PM
K just said that Hood was sick and had to be taken out. Are his nerves really that bad? It seems to have happened several times this year.
Wasn't nerves tonight. He got drilled in the gonads by an illegal pick that sprung KJ for a 3. He immediately went straight to the bench and all the bench guys stood in front him to the block the camera while I assume he puked his guts out again. Usually he does that from nerves. Tonight was different. He has a weak stomach. I can relate. He reminds me of me in that regard.

Also we did sub in the final 10 minutes. That play happened and Matt came in for several minutes for Hood. Quinn, Andre, and MP3 all sat for the final 10. Andre sat the rest of the game after the phantom foul on the 3 point shooter.

Celebrate the win folks. It's tournament play and Clemson brought their best effort against us again. Our defense was good for large parts of the game. It was just bad in the final 5 and part of that was fatigue. They were gassed.

Sixthman
03-14-2014, 11:10 PM
Not pretty, but it really is survive and advance. Not quite enough love for Duke on this thread. Six turnovers the whole game. We outrebounded a taller, more physical team by a lot, and we hit our free throws. Teams with that combination will win a lot of games.

tbyers11
03-14-2014, 11:11 PM
New from Van Pelt on Twitter:

"Thanks to @crazietalker for angle of Hood play. Foul. No question. Never saw it before we came on Correct call."

Good on him to admit that it was a definite foul. I still find it very odd that they couldn't produce the correct angle. I saw it in slow motion on WRAL at least 10 minutes before he started terping about it.

They didn't show a single replay of Hood getting fouled on the ESPN feed. I never saw it until I saw the Instagram that Billy Dat linked to.

theAlaskanBear
03-14-2014, 11:11 PM
Wow, the worst sportscenter coverage I have ever seen, and I have seen a lot. Get SVP off the air. What an I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.....it doesn't stop.

jacone21
03-14-2014, 11:11 PM
They're still discussing it on ESPN under the heading, "Controversial Call." Unreal.

hudlow
03-14-2014, 11:12 PM
Duke won.

Heels lost.

Great Day.

Next play.

wsb3
03-14-2014, 11:12 PM
Van Pelt says "You Duke fans.." And your fan base would allow you to look down on who?

Atlanta Duke
03-14-2014, 11:14 PM
Van Pelt trolls on as he now wonders if Rodney Hood walked before the foul- "I'm a Big Ten guy"

At least he acknowledges where he is coming from:)

Furniture
03-14-2014, 11:14 PM
Duke won.

Heels lost.

Great Day.

Next play.

In the end a win is a win...

FerryFor50
03-14-2014, 11:14 PM
Okay, I can concede that... It was a very physical game--they let them play. I guess I have less of a problem with calling it loosely, as long as you are calling it consistently. As long as the players on the floor know what contact is being allowed and what contact is being whistled, and it's consistent on both ends of the floor, I'm cool with that...

Well, I'm not a fan of physical play. It takes away a lot of the drives and inside play that allows your team to be balanced and favors a stronger, bigger team (like Clemson). Then you have to hope your jumpers fall or you get transition baskets to score because going inside is at your own peril. Even if it's called evenly, I'd prefer the refs call the bad contact.

Acymetric
03-14-2014, 11:14 PM
New from Van Pelt on Twitter:

"Thanks to @crazietalker for angle of Hood play. Foul. No question. Never saw it before we came on Correct call."

Good on him to admit that it was a definite foul. I still find it very odd that they couldn't produce the correct angle. I saw it in slow motion on WRAL at least 10 minutes before he started terping about it.

He is 100% backtracking right now on Sportscenter. I'll give him credit for that, its better than the standard postgame treatment. Gutsy play at times and shaky play at times, where would we have been without all those boards by Amile?

TruBlu
03-14-2014, 11:14 PM
Saw a comment that K mentioned they were tired at the end of the game...


Huh? We hadn't played in 5 days, and we were tired? Clemson had back-to-back overtime games, and they were coming on strong at the end.

I don't get it.

FerryFor50
03-14-2014, 11:16 PM
Huh? We hadn't played in 5 days, and we were tired? Clemson had back-to-back overtime games, and they were coming on strong at the end.

I don't get it.

Yea I don't get it either. He also said Clemson was tired, too. They sure didn't look tired. At least not until Hall collapsed at the end. ;)

sporthenry
03-14-2014, 11:16 PM
Duke will only go as far as the defense lets them. Maybe the offense bails them out for a game in the NCAAT but this type of defense has been their Achilles heel and will probably be the reason for their demise. Offensive rebounding was supposed to be another issue but Duke actually corrected that to some extent. But the ole defense and no rim protector especially when Marshall isn't playing kills Duke. And when the other team goes to either a quick offense or just a simple pick and roll, Duke just gets lost.

Offensively, they were expected to score 1.11 points per possession according to Kenpom. Doing some quick math, they scored 1.13 points per possession. And that was even with a poor 3 point shooting game (nice to see them attack and not fall back on the 3). You just can't expect them to score 1.2 PPP or more consistently and that is pretty much what we are asking.

sagegrouse
03-14-2014, 11:16 PM
If Duke goes on to win the ACC tournament Tyler will remember that final play in which he knocked the ball away for the rest of his life.

I'll remember it for the rest of my life, whether Duke wins tomorrow or not. Tyler makes a clean strip -- a ballsy play. And, if you think Amile fouls Hall (I thought there may have been a trip), there is air space between them the entire play.

I have no problems with Scott Van Pelt. He seems to be a really good guy, and any studio host worth his salt, ESPN or otherwise, would be trying to stir up something on the disparity in the calls on the last two plays. "Disparity" here is defined simply: Hood falls down with 3.8 seconds left and a foul is called vs. Hall falls down as time runs out and no foul is called. And Van Pelt quickly backs down from taking a stance, where others would be howling at the moon over the breaks that Duke gets.

Yeah, I guess our defense was a little off. BUT CLEMSON MAKES EVERY SINGLE SHOT IN THE LAST SEVEN MINUTES (except for one free throw). I give the Tigers a lot of credit. If I were from Clemson (and about one-half the guys in my HS class went there), I would be grousing (Hah!) about the poor offensive play in the first 33 minutes of the game.

Hood makes both ends of a one-and-one with 3.8 seconds left where a miss on the first means almost-certain defeat. I can only imagine what he was thinking.

Kjeffrey
03-14-2014, 11:16 PM
Laura Keeley tweeted that Coach K said he wished he could have Rodney for more than one year. Sounds like Hood already made up his mind. While the chances seemed slim he would return I still had hope, not anymore.

roywhite
03-14-2014, 11:17 PM
We hear a lot of talk about athletic teams, but Clemson has gotta be right up there.

Rod Hall the PG is 6'1" 210# and looks like he could line up at Tailback for the Clemson football team. Really. He is so strong and fast.
Nnoko is 6'10" and 250#, and really strong and quick.
And of course K.J. McDaniels, who goes 6'6" 200# and is a ridiculous leaper.

I think the pure athleticism of the Clemson team has worn us down in the second half of our two games with them.

MarkD83
03-14-2014, 11:17 PM
He is 100% backtracking right now on Sportscenter. I'll give him credit for that, its better than the standard postgame treatment. Gutsy play at times and shaky play at times, where would we have been without all those boards by Amile?

Call me a cynic, but I bet his producer whispered in his ear that this is a sports highlight program and not a fan call in show.

FerryFor50
03-14-2014, 11:19 PM
Call me a cynic, but I bet his producer whispered in his ear that this is a sports highlight program and not a fan call in show.

You mean it's not the Scott Van Pelt show? :D

Papa John
03-14-2014, 11:19 PM
Next year he can complain against the calls vs. Nebraska and Iowa I guess

Nah... He will still be fixated on us... It's called an inferiority complex for a reason... ;)

CDu
03-14-2014, 11:21 PM
Laura Keeley tweeted the Coach K said he wished he could have Rodney for more than one year. Sounds like Hood already made up his mind. While the chances seemed slim he would return I still had hope, not anymore.

There was never a doubt in my mind that Hood was going pro after this year. From the first televised practice you just knew he was NBA material. Remember: he is a junior in terms of age, so he is already fighting the "tapped out on potential" myth that GMs buy into.

MarkD83
03-14-2014, 11:21 PM
Laura Keeley tweeted the Coach K said he wished he could have Rodney for more than one year. Sounds like Hood already made up his mind. While the chances seemed slim he would return I still had hope, not anymore.

Keep in mind with a year at Miss State; 2 summers at Duke (perhaps this summer as well) and four additional semesters, Rodney could be very close to having all the classes he needs to graduate. If that is the case we need to wish him well as he moves on. I see Rodney's situation as similar to several other players that left after their 3rd year in college. They did unpack their bags and they either will graduate in 3yrs (J Will, Boozer) or they are close enough that a few more summer sessions and they will have their Duke degree.

Newton_14
03-14-2014, 11:21 PM
State will advance if we play same way tomorrow. Very few games have we played with passion and intensity. K got them playing one on one basketball. We don't look like a team. Hard to watch still love the Blue devils.
No they won't. Again folks are giving CLemson no credit at all for being a talented team that played a great game tonight. That other team always wants to win too, and like I said, they have talent. Folks are also letting our defense over the last 5 minutes schew what was otherwise a strong game by Duke. Had Duke played tonight they way they played in the first Clemson game, the ND game, and the Wake game, I would be in bed and our guys would be on buses headed back to Durham.

Duke brought a strong resolve tonight on both ends. Clemson brought a strong resolve on defense all night and on offense for many parts of the game. I want to dispute one other popular theory I have seen in the thread. Like I said earlier, this is the type of game we have WON all year not lost. In the games we lost, we were down by the 3 minute mark in all but one game, and down with 2 to go in that one. In the games where we have held the lead for the final 5 minutes, or only fell behind by 1 or 2 points after leading with 1 m inute to go, we have won every single one of them. UVA took a 2 point lead with less than 1 minute to go (after DUke had led the entire 2nd half) and Duke won.

Unlike the games we lost, we got enough points and enough stops down the stretch to keep the lead or fall behind no more than 2 points in the final 1 to 2 minutes. Just like tonight. That's another one to put in the memory bank and call on later on.

Furniture
03-14-2014, 11:23 PM
I'll remember it for the rest of my life, whether Duke wins tomorrow or not. Tyler makes a clean strip -- a ballsy play. And, if you think Amile fouls Hall (I thought there may have been a trip), there is air space between them the entire play.

I have no problems with Scott Van Pelt. He seems to be a really good guy, and any studio host worth his salt, ESPN or otherwise, would be trying to stir up something on the disparity in the calls on the last two plays. "Disparity" here is defined simply: Hood falls down with 3.8 seconds left and a foul is called vs. Hall falls down as time runs out and no foul is called. And Van Pelt quickly backs down from taking a stance, where others would be howling at the moon over the breaks that Duke gets.

Yeah, I guess our defense was a little off. BUT CLEMSON MAKES EVERY SINGLE SHOT IN THE LAST SEVEN MINUTES (except for one free throw). I give the Tigers a lot of credit. If I were from Clemson (and about one-half the guys in my HS class went there), I would be grousing (Hah!) about the poor offensive play in the first 33 minutes of the game.

Hood makes both ends of a one-and-one with 3.8 seconds left where a miss on the first means almost-certain defeat. I can only imagine what he was thinking.

This is what ESPN says..
"After Hood's free throws, Hall made it deep into the lane before he was stripped by Tyler Thornton a moment before the buzzer sounded".

MarkD83
03-14-2014, 11:24 PM
During the course of long tournament runs there is always one game you have to just grit your teeth and get through. Hopefully this was that game.

Utley
03-14-2014, 11:25 PM
New from Van Pelt on Twitter:

"Thanks to @crazietalker for angle of Hood play. Foul. No question. Never saw it before we came on Correct call."

Good on him to admit that it was a definite foul. I still find it very odd that they couldn't produce the correct angle. I saw it in slow motion on WRAL at least 10 minutes before he started terping about it.

I met SVP at the US Open at Congressional a few years back and really liked him. I introduced myself as a Dukie and prepared for a negative reaction and we ended up having a fun civil conversation. I thought the ESPN game announcers were worse talking about the obvious Hall on foul before they say a replay.

Hard to know wheat to make of tonight. The theme was all too familiar, but even lax D doesn't account for Clemson hitting some 3 that just aren't a normal part of their arsenal. Hall hit some tough drives as well.

That being said, the one thing I just can't stand is the offensive position where Sheed started his 1 on 1 drive with 10 or less seconds left. I just can't be convinced that was anything other than horrific strategy. Lucky to win this one at the end.

1999ballboy
03-14-2014, 11:26 PM
They didn't show a single replay of Hood getting fouled on the ESPN feed. I never saw it until I saw the Instagram that Billy Dat linked to.

Yeah, that was my point. The replay I saw was on WRAL, not ESPN, and I saw it immediately. It's insane that ESPN couldn't produce a single 5-second clip of Hood clearly getting fouled until over half an hour after the game. So maybe their video department deserves some blame as well, but I still didn't care for SVP's coverage of the play at all. It's fine if he didn't get a good look at it, but despite his steadfast denial, his intention was clearly to troll. Why else would he comment at all on something that he can't even see?

But he admitted it was a foul on Twitter, and on the air now. Whatever. It was all he could do.

Latest snarky SVP line: "Why would I care? I'm a Big 10 guy." Har! Good one.

jacone21
03-14-2014, 11:27 PM
This Duke team needs a little bit of this...

4004

Billy Dat
03-14-2014, 11:27 PM
Rodney can barf anytime he wants as far as I'm concerned, just as long as it's not in the gutter.:D

DBR needs more posts like this!

nyesq83
03-14-2014, 11:27 PM
Never mind, ESPN.com d'oh!

hurleyfor3
03-14-2014, 11:27 PM
I'm not kidding.

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4003&d=1394857637

sporthenry
03-14-2014, 11:29 PM
No they won't. Again folks are giving CLemson no credit at all for being a talented team that played a great game tonight. That other team always wants to win too, and like I said, they have talent.

I don't think anyone is disputing this. But now we are going to get into some argument about how much of the game is in your control. Sure, some of it was credit to Clemson. And they still have to hit the shots. But relying on teams to miss open 3's seems like a recipe for trouble. Certainly letting a team hit their last 7 shots or shoot 67% in the 2nd half is partially Duke failing. It is survive and advance but Duke actually fell in Kenpom's rankings after this game. I just don't see the great game by Duke that you do. I saw glimpses and stretches of it but this was far from a complete game by Duke. Gritty, sure.

roywhite
03-14-2014, 11:30 PM
I'm not kidding.

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4003&d=1394857637

Is it too late in the season to get some personalized Rodney Hood #5 barf bags in the Duke stores and online?

SCMatt33
03-14-2014, 11:31 PM
The final KenPom box has been posted. Clemson had 56 total possessions in the game. In the first 36, they scored 29 points (0.80 per possession). In the next 19, they scored 33 points (1.73 per possession). On the last one, Hall's plant foot slipped and he never got to attempt what would have been an open layup. That's a sharp difference. If this was an anomaly, that would be one thing, but this has happened time and again. If Duke loses in the tourney, I'm sure there will be a stretch of at least 10 possessions in the last 12 minutes about which I could post something similar. I don't think I've ever seen a Duke team that had this propensity to play poorly down the stretch of games.

Billy Dat
03-14-2014, 11:33 PM
This Duke team needs a little bit of this...

4004

Yeah, man, where is Sensei Kreese when you need him?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8lUt0Ile00

Billy Dat
03-14-2014, 11:36 PM
The trend of Rodney being at the center of end game situations continues...that's an interesting story line this year.

BlueDevilBrowns
03-14-2014, 11:37 PM
Duke will only go as far as the defense lets them. Maybe the offense bails them out for a game in the NCAAT but this type of defense has been their Achilles heel and will probably be the reason for their demise. Offensive rebounding was supposed to be another issue but Duke actually corrected that to some extent. But the ole defense and no rim protector especially when Marshall isn't playing kills Duke. And when the other team goes to either a quick offense or just a simple pick and roll, Duke just gets lost.

Offensively, they were expected to score 1.11 points per possession according to Kenpom. Doing some quick math, they scored 1.13 points per possession. And that was even with a poor 3 point shooting game (nice to see them attack and not fall back on the 3). You just can't expect them to score 1.2 PPP or more consistently and that is pretty much what we are asking.

I disagree slightly. While our Defense has been porous at times(to say the least), our Offense has disappeared for long stretches in several of our losses and more than a few of our wins, as well.

With only 8 games max left in the season, we've proven to be an offensive team. That's our identity when we are at our best. We just need the defense to not be horrible. It doesn't have to be great, just not "ole" as you put it.

Now it's my belief(and I know most of you disagree) that using "Stall Ball" plays into out opponents hands because it neuters our offensive intensity and makes us rely primarily on our defense along with smart PG play to close out ball games. That's a wise tactical move with past Duke teams. But not with this one, IMO. When we become passive on offense, the opponent takes advantage.

As has been documented here already, we had a 9 point lead with 5 minutes left. We began to utilize Stall Ball at that point in time. Quickly the lead evaporated. Our Offense was stagnant and we held the ball until we were forced to jack up poor desperation jump shots that lead directly to fast break opportunities for Clemson.

I agree with some posters, too, that feel fatigue played a factor along with Clemson making out-of-character shots, but the bottom line is, the lead didn't disappear and our offense didn't stagnate until Stall Ball started.

Clemson's Achilles heal is scoring. Why not keep trying to apply offensive pressure by continuing to score, making it more difficult for them to keep up. I believe that will be our blueprint for winning in the NCAAT.

tbyers11
03-14-2014, 11:38 PM
One point I haven't seen discussed because of Tyler's great defensive strip. I thought how we setup to defend the inbounds pass was really poor. IMO, we can't let Hall catch the ball that cleanly with his momentum heading toward the offensive end. Tyler needs to be closer to him on the catch and not pick up after he already has a 2 step head of steam built up. It is very hard, almost impossible, to turn the dribbler away from his intended path at that point. You have to go for the strip. It worked here but it is a method with a pretty low degree of success, IMO.

I would liked to have seen Amile not guarding the ball on the inbound. With 3.8 seconds left it is not likely that Clemson is planning on throwing the ball long. It is a fairly low percentage play with that much time. Therefore, we aren't likely to pull a Pitino and be at a disadvantage by not guarding the inbounder. I would put Amile near half-court and have him loosely face guard Hall as he runs toward the ball. This will make it hard for Hall to catch the ball and turn toward the basket in one motion as he did. Tyler would then have much easier time guarding Hall closely since he didn't already have a head of steam built up. It also likely that Hall only gets to about the three point line instead of the paint before he has to launch a shot.

Billy Dat
03-14-2014, 11:40 PM
Laura Keeley's reaction piece goes into depth about something that this thread hasn't touched much...how the last few minutes were really all about Rasheed before the final 2 plays:

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/03/14/3703596/duke-survives-clemson-63-62-advances.html

gumbomoop
03-14-2014, 11:41 PM
To be fair, they did say beforehand that it was the second-to-last call that they were interested in.

Not at first. The first comment by SVP and/or partner was to the effect that "That one [Hood] was a foul, but that one [Hall] wasn't???" Then backtracked.


The ACC Network feed provided a replay, and both announcers agreed it was clearly a foul. On the last play, we got one quick replay, Cory. Saying there was too much contact for it not to be a foul, then sign off.

Yes, they cut off too quickly to see what Sean Farnham [ESPN] saw from 3 camera angles, behind, under basket, and from the rafters:


It was actually TT that knocked the ball away. Then Hall fell into a Duke defender. No foul.


Yeah, I know. I watched several times on replay. I agreed with Newton14 assessment there. I was pointing out that Sheed never touched him. Hall never fell into him either. After TT stripped the ball, Hall jumped in the air and missed Rasheed totally.

Farnham simply allowed the 3 camera shots to show the final play, and said straightforwardly that there was no foul. Added that after TT stripped ball, Hall "just seemed to dive between the defenders." Farnham seemed to be saying not so much that Hall was diving to draw a foul, but that he was going so fast he just lost his balance. Which, come to think of it, might have been Rodney's fate had he not been pushed.

For the final play, the 3-camera-trifecta is definitive.

LobstersPinchPinch
03-14-2014, 11:42 PM
Pretty typical game for us, giving up a late lead with some poor play on D and O.

I don't worry so much about the D, we're just not good at it. I know a lot of folks wonder why we just can't maintain our D the entire game, but after 30+ games, that feels like wishful thinking.

It's the O that worries me, it does more than its fair share of reducing our leads, and it's something we happen to be really good at, most of the time. I'm not nearly smart enough to offer solutions, but if I were the coach, that seems like the area to try and optimize down the stretch.

Strong defensive teams worry me the most, because they'll contain our O, and we know our D will make their O look good. Fortunately, NCST has a pretty crappy D, so I expect we'll win tomorrow.

greybeard
03-14-2014, 11:43 PM
Bad move not using platoon. Very bad! With platooning, this team has great stature. Without it, a one-and-done, a transfer, a guy who is almost like a first-year player (Amile), a sophomore, and a senior. Great players and great individuals, but who is this team. Very, very bad move.

MCFinARL
03-14-2014, 11:43 PM
let em whine........

i felt like this was going to be ugly...i'll take the win...



tomorrow.....TJ is gonna try to glow like kryptonite.........


hope we got some juice in the tank....

Well, Quinn, Andre, Marshall and Matt should have plenty of juice if the others are tired, since they played 41 minutes between them. Not sure why the minutes were distributed the way they were in this game, and I'm tempted to think it might have had something to do with the way it played out. But there is no way to know.

Newton_14
03-14-2014, 11:43 PM
I don't think anyone is disputing this. But now we are going to get into some argument about how much of the game is in your control. Sure, some of it was credit to Clemson. And they still have to hit the shots. But relying on teams to miss open 3's seems like a recipe for trouble. Certainly letting a team hit their last 7 shots or shoot 67% in the 2nd half is partially Duke failing. It is survive and advance but Duke actually fell in Kenpom's rankings after this game. I just don't see the great game by Duke that you do. I saw glimpses and stretches of it but this was far from a complete game by Duke. Gritty, sure.
Never said it was a great performance but will argue all day it was a strong, winning performance. I could give a rip about Kenpom ratings but according to his ratings Clemson is one of the top defensive teams in the country. Despite them making life really difficult for our offense, we were still able to impose our will at key points in the game which is why we had the 13 point cushion to begin with. They totally took away our 3 point looks better than any team had all year including Syracuse, Arizona, Kansas, UVA, and Pitt. Dropping in Kenpom ratings is no more meaningful than rising in Kenpom ratings in a conference tournament game. He cant measure heart and intangibles.

Other people asked about fatigue. It was a hard fought, grind it out game in the halfcourt, with lots of physical play, in high stress conditions. Those last 13 minutes were brutal but our guys played really strong in about 9 and a half of those 13 minutes, and I do think fatigue set in there late. We hardly subbed at all, the guys were having to work their tails off on both ends of the floor the enitre time, and game pressure was really high. That wears on you, and on top of that, all the pressure was on Duke which matters also. Clemson is expected to lose so little pressure on them. I also think the team that has played a game already can have an advantage as well. I thought that played a big role today for both Pitt and NCSU.

Anyway, dont get me wrong here. It was not some lights out performance. I just think it was a very strong, winning performance, not a crappy, or poor performance like we had the first time we played them. Thats all I am saying.

tbyers11
03-14-2014, 11:49 PM
The final KenPom box has been posted. Clemson had 56 total possessions in the game. In the first 36, they scored 29 points (0.80 per possession). In the next 19, they scored 33 points (1.73 per possession). On the last one, Hall's plant foot slipped and he never got to attempt what would have been an open layup. That's a sharp difference. If this was an anomaly, that would be one thing, but this has happened time and again. If Duke loses in the tourney, I'm sure there will be a stretch of at least 10 possessions in the last 12 minutes about which I could post something similar. I don't think I've ever seen a Duke team that had this propensity to play poorly down the stretch of games.

Hall's right plant foot may have slipped slightly but I think Tyler stripping the ball from him had a lot more to do with him not attempting a final shot than any plant foot slippage.

To your overall point, the poor play down the stretch of several close games is almost mind-boggling. Poor offensive shot selection overall and poor execution of the stall game. Poor defense overall and very poor transition defense typically resulting from the poor offensive play. I texted my friend, only half-jokingly, that if we don't have a good shot by 5 seconds left in the shot clock we should just throw the ball out of bounds and get back on D to help solve the porous transition D issue

CDu
03-14-2014, 11:50 PM
Laura Keeley's reaction piece goes into depth about something that this thread hasn't touched much...how the last few minutes were really all about Rasheed before the final 2 plays:

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/03/14/3703596/duke-survives-clemson-63-62-advances.html

That is accurate on offense, but he was also the guy guarding Hall.

MCFinARL
03-14-2014, 11:50 PM
Yea I don't get it either. He also said Clemson was tired, too. They sure didn't look tired. At least not until Hall collapsed at the end. ;)

Well, sometimes I think Coach K says something different to the media than he says to the team. Possibly just as well since he might have had a few choice words for the team about their end-of-game defensive effort.

On the other hand, if they were tired, he had fresher legs on the bench. So....

KandG
03-14-2014, 11:50 PM
Interesting re-watching the last ten minutes or so. I remember thinking during the game, when Duke was up 47-34 and then 50-40 (with the usual fan paranoia)..."hmmm, how will this lead be frittered away?". In a worst case scenario, I expected that as Clemson cut into the lead, Duke would start taking the air out of the ball, getting perilously deep into the shot clock, and getting poorer quality shots (the infamous "stall ball").

Clemson did cut the lead to 50-45 with 8:17 left, but I was impressed that on the next four possessions on offense, we moved the ball, tried to get it into Jabari or used him to overload the defense on one side while Duke got some action on the opposite side of the floor (in one case, a Sulaimon driving layup). Time left on the shot clock on the four possessions after Clemson cut it to five: 13 seconds, 20, 10, and 18. As a result, Duke was able to maintain a lead of 9 points at 56-47 with an opportunity to get it even higher at one point.

But after Clemson cut the lead to 56-50 with five minutes left, Duke seemed to go into glass jaw mode. Miss a labored shot on offense, give up points immediately on defense. To Clemson's substantial credit, they really shut down entry passes to Jabari inside and made it very difficult for Duke to get anything open outside. Games like this (and against Virginia in the final if Duke and VA are fortunate to get that far) will be really good experience for Duke to learn to execute with more composure against high quality defenses in a tournament setting.

After reviewing all the possessions in the final 10 minutes, I really came away thinking that the team hadn't done too terribly with their attempted execution on offense even as the game got closer (exception: the play that went down to the final second where Sheed yelled at Jabari to "run the m-f-ing play" and forcing K to call a TO with six seconds left). But Duke absolutely has to find a way to stop the opponent from ramming the ball down their throat when their offense stalls and scoring with such ridiculous efficiency. Teams the caliber of Clemson, Wake, even UNC should not be scoring so easily at the end of games, even if we all acknowledge this is not one of K's best defensive teams.

I know K said the team got tired at the end of the game, but I wonder if it's physical exhaustion or some sort of mental exhaustion that makes defense really difficult for this team when their shots aren't falling late.

roywhite
03-14-2014, 11:53 PM
We hear a lot of talk about athletic teams, but Clemson has gotta be right up there.

Rod Hall the PG is 6'1" 210# and looks like he could line up at Tailback for the Clemson football team. Really. He is so strong and fast.
Nnoko is 6'10" and 250#, and really strong and quick.
And of course K.J. McDaniels, who goes 6'6" 200# and is a ridiculous leaper.

I think the pure athleticism of the Clemson team has worn us down in the second half of our two games with them.


Laura Keeley's reaction piece goes into depth about something that this thread hasn't touched much...how the last few minutes were really all about Rasheed before the final 2 plays:




“I really think we got tired,” Krzyzewski said. “They’re a little bit more athletic than we are – although we’re athletic – and they can wear you down. Rasheed seemed to have a little spark.”



Great point, Coach. ;)

CDu
03-14-2014, 11:56 PM
I disagree slightly. While our Defense has been porous at times(to say the least), our Offense has disappeared for long stretches in several of our losses and more than a few of our wins, as well.

With only 8 games max left in the season, we've proven to be an offensive team. That's our identity when we are at our best. We just need the defense to not be horrible. It doesn't have to be great, just not "ole" as you put it.

Now it's my belief(and I know most of you disagree) that using "Stall Ball" plays into out opponents hands because it neuters our offensive intensity and makes us rely primarily on our defense along with smart PG play to close out ball games. That's a wise tactical move with past Duke teams. But not with this one, IMO. When we become passive on offense, the opponent takes advantage.

As has been documented here already, we had a 9 point lead with 5 minutes left. We began to utilize Stall Ball at that point in time. Quickly the lead evaporated. Our Offense was stagnant and we held the ball until we were forced to jack up poor desperation jump shots that lead directly to fast break opportunities for Clemson.

I agree with some posters, too, that feel fatigue played a factor along with Clemson making out-of-character shots, but the bottom line is, the lead didn't disappear and our offense didn't stagnate until Stall Ball started.

Clemson's Achilles heal is scoring. Why not keep trying to apply offensive pressure by continuing to score, making it more difficult for them to keep up. I believe that will be our blueprint for winning in the NCAAT.

I have been a long-time proponent of stall ball. But this team does make me wonder if it is right for this team. Granted, this game is almost the complete extreme worst-case scenario: where we didn't score at all and Clemson scored every time.

Typically, that isn't how things play out. It is just that we don't notice when stall ball works because it isn't glaring like a collapse is. So we remember the collapses.

That being said, it is certainly possible that stall ball with this particular team could be problematic for the very reasons you mentioned .

killerleft
03-14-2014, 11:58 PM
Tournament ball is littered with games like this one. Glad we won it. Clemson played very well, kudos to them. Hall played his butt off, but Tyler grabbed the brass ring on that final play. Yip. On to the Pack!

Be happy, folks! Would you rather be Tar Heels or something? Bwahahahaha!!

There should be plenty of cheap tickets for the games tomorrow. We need to challenge the Pack fans with some Devil yells!

richardjackson199
03-15-2014, 12:00 AM
Great clutch free throws by Rodney.

We are going to have to play better than this to have any kind of deep run this March and hopefully April. We have to stop these 5+ minute scoring droughts. The last time we played State is where we had the brilliant platoon strategy. I hope we bring it back. We need more subbing to win 3 games in 3 days. We also need to stay fresh for bigger games next week.

I'd love to see Quinn and Andre get more minutes. They really seem to improve our offensive chemistry. I also like seeing Rasheed and Andre on the floor at the same time. Rasheed and Quinn know how to find Andre. Earlier in the year Andre was torching from 3, and he's still the same guy. He just isn't playing much, and I don't see him playing poorly. Quinn has also been playing much better recently. I'd like to see more games like we played last Saturday against UNC. I'm glad we're still getting Jabari and Rodney touches in scoring position. We should be doing that. But we have to be smart and trust each other. Everybody knows we're going to go to Jabari and Rodney for offense. But if their defense tries to go 5 on 1 (which Clemson did several times when Jabari got the ball), Jabari sometimes needs to find the open guy and trust him to score. Having guys like Quinn and Andre on the floor who can punish a collapsing defense or zone is key.

Go Duke! Great chance tomorrow for Jabari and Rodney to show TJ Warren who the real ACC POY's are when it matters most.

Billy Dat
03-15-2014, 12:03 AM
That is accurate on offense, but he was also the guy guarding Hall.

I should have stated more specifically how involved he was, good and bad, on both ends. He was central to nearly every play.

sporthenry
03-15-2014, 12:05 AM
I have been a long-time proponent of stall ball. But this team does make me wonder if it is right for this team. Granted, this game is almost the complete extreme worst-case scenario: where we didn't score at all and Clemson scored every time.

Typically, that isn't how things play out. It is just that we don't notice when stall ball works because it isn't glaring like a collapse is. So we remember the collapses.

That being said, it is certainly possible that stall ball with this particular team could be problematic for the very reasons you mentioned .

Even when stall ball works, it usually isn't pretty. Now usually it isn't this bad and I don't think stall ball works best with this team. Doesn't excuse tonight's defense, and I don't think they went into stall ball nearly as early as some suspect. But this team plays so much better when they run the full offense. Not to mention, they really do a poor job of getting a good shot late in the clock. For whatever reason, we can't run that play with 10 seconds left like we used to. I suspect some of it is b/c we don't have anyone to run the pick and roll. It turns into an iso play and when we have 3 dynamic offensive threats, it does seem silly to slow it down. I'm sure K would respond with the fact they were tired but when you are a historically good offensive team, you'd think you'd want to maximize possessions.

J4Kop99
03-15-2014, 12:17 AM
I'm glad we won but it's the same problems over and over again:

-Inconsistent guard play
-Relinquishing double digit leads
-Playing matador defense for long stretches

I guess we can chalk it up to "it is what it is" at this point...

Warren v. Parker/Hood should be great tomorrow.

OZ
03-15-2014, 12:30 AM
I just got home and had to see that last play. From our advantage point, Tyler's "poke" looked clean. The Clemson fans (as I would have done) were screaming foul. I have now watched it in slo-mo frame by frame... it was a clean play by Tyler. A heck of a play that saved this game.
When watching games a second time, I am always amazed at the little things Tyler does that I missed the first time. This play didn't go unnoticed tonight as his teammates ran right to him. They knew they would be playing tomorrow, at least in part, because of that play.
Tired...drained... and shaking my head as to what happened over that last five minutes? We will need a better effort tomorrow in crunch time.

gofurman
03-15-2014, 12:44 AM
Our transition defense was awful in this game, and our execution down the stretch was equally questionable. Rod Hall was doing whatever he wanted. We just can't do anything against quick, dynamic point guards. This is why I was worried about this game.

People in the pre-game thread were talking about this game as if they expected us to blow them out . . . You think national ranking means anything in a win or go home situation? Since when has that ever mattered? Clemson is a good team, and they play us as tough as anyone in the conference. They are defensively one of the worst matchups in the ACC, and they have exactly the type of players that can score on us without much trouble. We don't have the luxury of underestimating any team going forward. We're just not that kind of dominating team this year. NC State has been hot, and I expect another really tough game tomorrow night.

This. I HATE hearing how easy each upcoming game will be. Tell me how hard they are and how we will lose ... Anti- jinx theory

gofurman
03-15-2014, 12:59 AM
Pretty typical game for us, giving up a late lead with some poor play on D and O.

I don't worry so much about the D, we're just not good at it. I know a lot of folks wonder why we just can't maintain our D the entire game, but after 30+ games, that feels like wishful thinking.

It's the O that worries me, it does more than its fair share of reducing our leads, and it's something we happen to be really good at, most of the time. I'm not nearly smart enough to offer solutions, but if I were the coach, that seems like the area to try and optimize down the stretch.

&&&Strong defensive teams worry me the most, because they'll contain our O,$$& and we know our D will make their O look good. Fortunately, NCST has a pretty crappy D, so I expect we'll win tomorrow.

Good point - Clemson pushes us as hard as anyone and what are they great at ?? D. It's that simple. Also they have strong quick guards in Hall and McDaniels (NBA athlete). A bad matchup for Duke. It's all about matchups. That being said, Duke is playing poor D - very poor - and must score at least 70 ( if we are to rely on O) to win vs great teams.

Edouble
03-15-2014, 01:01 AM
Laura Keeley's reaction piece goes into depth about something that this thread hasn't touched much...how the last few minutes were really all about Rasheed before the final 2 plays:

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/03/14/3703596/duke-survives-clemson-63-62-advances.html

Why does she look like she is falling over the whole time during the video?

Steven43
03-15-2014, 01:10 AM
It's all related! Passive both ways.

Exactly right. Stall ball destroys any semblance of cohesiveness and rhythm on BOTH ends of the court. It is a TRAVESTY to see our world-class Duke athletes simply standing in place dribbling, twiddling their thumbs, and passing the ball lazily and predictably around the perimeter followed by a last-second, forced, well-defensed, hero ball 'shot' that almost always misses and which allows the opponent to fast break the other way usually in a five-on-four because the Duke shooter is often in a bad position after wilding forcing up a prayer. Will this shameful excuse for basketball ever end? Is this simply the way Coach is going to do it for the rest of his career? If so, it is going to be a very sad way for him to go out, because this 'strategy' is self-defeating. Tonight's game was further evidence of what happens when you don't have a legitimate top-level point guard. That is our biggest weakness, NOT the lack of an athletic big man on both ends, though, that is clearly our second-biggest weakness.

-bdbd
03-15-2014, 01:12 AM
Great point by Richard Jackson - boy wasn't Rodney clutch with those two FT's with 3.6 seconds left, and on a 1-and-1 situation! He misses the first one....we lose.

I was at the game, lower section, about 5 rows above the media area, across from the Duke bench. Several times it seemed like Jabari was out of position, including that late possession where K had to call time-out with 6 seconds on the shot clock... One of the guys, I think Rasheed, was yelling at at Jabari what looked like, "Run the ____ing play!" And that was not the first time one of the guys was yelling at Jabari about being in the wrong place. Off the ball, several times, especially in the second half, he seemed like a deer-in-the-headlights... Unsure and unassertive. That dude is just so talented, if he ever realizes how much better he can be than everyone else, and plays assertively, he will be incredible. Right now, I don't think he WANTS it at crunch time. Sigh.

BTW, FWIW, the crowd was not as loud, and much less anti-Duke, than we experienced last year in the MD loss. Mostly I think that's cuz most heels bailed after their loss...which, incidently, caused scalper prices to plummit. Come on out Duke fans, as seats can be had, and cheaper than last year I think!

I do like how the tournament is shaping up well for us, with our path seeming to be all against teams we've only BEATEN... probably State and the UVA. Not that we played inspired at all Fri., but gotta like a path of Clemson, State and UVA to win it. Not terrible. :o:)

Steven43
03-15-2014, 01:16 AM
This team CANNOT close - they lack a "mean streak" to just stomp on someone's throat when they have them down - IMHO its due to a lack of leadership and the team lacks a "jerk".

I also cannot remember a Duke team that struggled so...... much with REALLY bad basketball teams (Notre Dame, Clemson x2, Wake Forest).

Finally, ACC basketball is BORING to watch so..... many low possession teams if it weren't for a shot clock you might not see some teams get into double digits.

No, this team lacks an effective strategy when they have a lead with only 20% of the game left to go. And yes, it is VERY boring. Such a shame. So easily correctable.

CBecker
03-15-2014, 01:17 AM
The last 10-15 minutes were just nerve wracking to watch. Mindless offensive execution..just stall ball, 1on1, brick. Is being tired an excuse for that? Maybe?..then defensively it was just as bad. There was no interior defense at all. Soft? or tired? I dunno. Just didn't seem to be any intent at all on either end.
With Hood at the line with those reported nerve issues, I was starting to feel sick in the stomach myself, but he was clutch. :)


Let's hope for a more complete showing against NC State.

DukeDevil
03-15-2014, 01:27 AM
I watched from Greensboro Coliseum but rewatched the second half and THIS came up after a cook 3...

4005

Talk about a **** eating grin.

ice-9
03-15-2014, 01:30 AM
Interesting re-watching the last ten minutes or so. I remember thinking during the game, when Duke was up 47-34 and then 50-40 (with the usual fan paranoia)..."hmmm, how will this lead be frittered away?". In a worst case scenario, I expected that as Clemson cut into the lead, Duke would start taking the air out of the ball, getting perilously deep into the shot clock, and getting poorer quality shots (the infamous "stall ball").

Clemson did cut the lead to 50-45 with 8:17 left, but I was impressed that on the next four possessions on offense, we moved the ball, tried to get it into Jabari or used him to overload the defense on one side while Duke got some action on the opposite side of the floor (in one case, a Sulaimon driving layup). Time left on the shot clock on the four possessions after Clemson cut it to five: 13 seconds, 20, 10, and 18. As a result, Duke was able to maintain a lead of 9 points at 56-47 with an opportunity to get it even higher at one point.

But after Clemson cut the lead to 56-50 with five minutes left, Duke seemed to go into glass jaw mode. Miss a labored shot on offense, give up points immediately on defense. To Clemson's substantial credit, they really shut down entry passes to Jabari inside and made it very difficult for Duke to get anything open outside. Games like this (and against Virginia in the final if Duke and VA are fortunate to get that far) will be really good experience for Duke to learn to execute with more composure against high quality defenses in a tournament setting.

After reviewing all the possessions in the final 10 minutes, I really came away thinking that the team hadn't done too terribly with their attempted execution on offense even as the game got closer (exception: the play that went down to the final second where Sheed yelled at Jabari to "run the m-f-ing play" and forcing K to call a TO with six seconds left). But Duke absolutely has to find a way to stop the opponent from ramming the ball down their throat when their offense stalls and scoring with such ridiculous efficiency. Teams the caliber of Clemson, Wake, even UNC should not be scoring so easily at the end of games, even if we all acknowledge this is not one of K's best defensive teams.

I know K said the team got tired at the end of the game, but I wonder if it's physical exhaustion or some sort of mental exhaustion that makes defense really difficult for this team when their shots aren't falling late.


Thank you for re-watching that, and confirming what I suspected. Our offensive execution down the stretch wasn't that bad. Clemson had a really good defensive game plan for us.

It was our defense that was the problem in the last 8 minutes; we gave up baskets too easily. And this was after defending so well the previous 32 minutes.

Cameron
03-15-2014, 02:21 AM
Not sure I can recall another season in which we surrendered this many double-digit leads in the second half of games. Games we have done that to date: @Notre Dame (loss), @Clemson (loss ... although our double-digit lead may have occurred in first half), @UNC (loss), Virginia at home, Maryland at home, @Wake (loss), UNC at home and again tonight against Clemson. As this list of games proves, play with fire enough and it will burn you.

For whatever reason, we are frequently prone to significant periods of major breakdowns -- sometimes defensively, sometimes offensively -- where we mentally just lock up as soon as a game enters its most critical stage. This squad is comprised of far too many veterans and far too much talent for that to happen at the rate of occurrence it is has all season. The time is now to dig down deep and find out what we are really capable of or our tournament bags will not remain unpacked for long. Hopefully we are able to feed off the energy of the crowd tomorrow which will no doubt be as intense as it has all weekend with two traditional ACC rivals squaring off for a trip to the championship on Sunday. This Duke team, more so than most in the past, seems to really require more pushing from the staff and other outside forces to maintain motivation for the full 40 minutes. I don't get it at all.

On a positive note, we won.

For that I am grateful. ACC Tournament Saturday is the saddest day of the year when Duke is not there.

Edouble
03-15-2014, 02:27 AM
Not sure I can recall another season in which we surrendered this many double-digit leads in the second half of games. Games we have done that to date: @Notre Dame (loss), @Clemson (loss ... although our double-digit lead may have occurred in first half), @UNC (loss), Virginia at home, Maryland at home, @Wake (loss), UNC at home and again tonight against Clemson. As this list of games proves, play with fire enough and it will burn you.

For whatever reason, we are frequently prone to significant periods of major breakdowns -- sometimes defensively, sometimes offensively -- where we mentally just lock up as soon as a game enters its most critical stage. This squad is comprised of far too many veterans and far too much talent for that to happen at the rate of occurrence it is has all season. The time is now to dig down deep and find out what we are really capable of or our tournament bags will not remain unpacked for long. Hopefully we are able to feed off the energy of the crowd tomorrow which will no doubt be as intense as it has all weekend with two traditional ACC rivals squaring off for a trip to the championship on Sunday. This Duke team, more so than most in the past, seems to really require more pushing from the staff and other outside forces to maintain motivation for the full 40 minutes. I don't get it at all.

On a positive note, we won.

For that I am grateful. ACC Tournament Saturday is the saddest day of the year when Duke is not there.

I tend to agree with most of this, and I am glad to see that someone else is still up.

First March game and I'm already wiped.

Not sure about playing with fire. I know that the team seems happy enough when there is blood in the water, but doesn't take it as a cue to go for the kill... sometimes we seem content to let the other team swim away.

Saratoga2
03-15-2014, 05:44 AM
Before reading what others have said I want to add my thoughts, however muddled at 6:45 am.

First of all, the tournament is very competitive this year with only Virginia getting away fairly easily. Both Syracuse and UNC went down and Duke had to hang on by the short hairs. That said, I thought coach K did a very good job of substitution and that virtually every player that got time contributed. Rodney had an excellent game and his final two foul shots under game pressure were money. Clearly Clemson was defending Jabari as a priority and they slowed him down but cream will rise and he came along better in the second half. Tyler had some nice defensive plays, particularly when he knocked the ball loose on the last drive. Quinn came in and worked the lob effectively and also hit a big three. Rasheed converted much needed scores and Amile had a great game on the boards. While he didn't score, Marshall got in and was disruptive. All in all, a good effort against a tough team.

There were a couple of fouls against 3 point shooters that weren't smart and we did sort of swoon again at the end of the game. Coach K had to pull them back together with a time out to get them over that near collapse. The truth is that Clemson had a guard we had trouble stopping, were strong inside and hit some threes at the end while our threes were not falling again.

Andre didn't get much time and neither Semi or Josh got any that I remember, but that was coach K's best judgment and I think he was correct. We have a battle tested team with everyone getting some rest during the game. Survive and advance.

roywhite
03-15-2014, 06:04 AM
Duke 63 -- Clemson 62 (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=209434666)

The best news is to find that Duke really did win the game. Whew; that was tough.

Duke with a 34 to 25 rebounding edge; that is a terrific turnaround from the rebounding stats in our game at Littlejohn.

Yeah, Clemson really did shoot 14-21 from the field in the second half; look at the distribution of shot attempts; they definitely spread things around and got high quality shots.

Duke had only 6 turnovers; Clemson only 10, though a couple late in the 1st half were important.

Rodney and Jabari were combined 11-30 from the field, but a combined 13-14 from the line.

Clemson played well and shot great, esp. in the second half and Duke simply could not stop them late until Tyler made the key strip; Duke rebounded well, didn't turn the ball over, and made their free throws; it was enough (barely) to win.

MB in MD
03-15-2014, 06:09 AM
....a last-second, forced, well-defensed, hero ball 'shot' that almost always misses and which allows the opponent to fast break the other way usually in a five-on-four because the Duke shooter is often in a bad position ....

I think this gets to the real issue with stall ball, at least with this team. Yes, giving up 2 points per possession down the stretch is atrocious, but our bad offense was in no small part to blame for our bad defense. Jabari said as much in his sideline interview after the game: we were throwing up bad shots and allowing them runouts. With a good defensive team like Clemson, waiting till 8 or 9 seconds on the clock to initiate offense won't get it done (the beautiful 6 second bucket by 'Sheed doesn't count because that came after a timeout).

dukelifer
03-15-2014, 06:54 AM
This is tourney time folks. Games are close and come down to one possession. It does not matter how good the team is.
Duke has struggled all year to hang on to leads. It is in their heads now. But they made plays and hit just enough shots in this one. Lots of very good teams lost or almost lost in their conference tourneys this week. There were some pundits ready to put Cuse in the final 1 spot with a run to the finals. It is a bit random now. This Duke team has flaws but is also capable of winning out. The flaws wont be fixed now. They just need to minimize mistakes. They have one more game to get their feet under them. Today they need to play hard as if it is their last game. State is playing well and have a great player. Expect another close game.

kshepinthehouse
03-15-2014, 06:58 AM
I noticed this too. Weird to have such a compressed rotation in the first game of a 3 games in 3 days tournament, especially with tip off tomorrow at 3:30-ish.

I was at the game so I didn't have a chance to watch the game closely and look at replays and rewind, etc. Did anyone else think Cook should have been in there a lot more? I didn't think he played bad. If we are going to win a championship I think we need Cook to be our point guard.

NYBri
03-15-2014, 08:08 AM
It's all related! Passive both ways.

Part of stall ball is, "don't foul and stop the clock for them to score."

It leads to soft, passive D and hero ball O. That drive Sheed had at 14 seconds with 2 on the shot clock is stall ball at its worst.

NYBri
03-15-2014, 08:14 AM
Part of stall ball is, "don't foul and stop the clock for them to score."

It leads to soft, passive D and hero ball O. That drive Sheed had at 14 seconds with 2 on the clock is stall ball at its worst.

That said, survive and advance. On to State!

hillsborodevil
03-15-2014, 08:21 AM
Even when stall ball works, it usually isn't pretty. Now usually it isn't this bad and I don't think stall ball works best with this team. Doesn't excuse tonight's defense, and I don't think they went into stall ball nearly as early as some suspect. But this team plays so much better when they run the full offense. Not to mention, they really do a poor job of getting a good shot late in the clock. For whatever reason, we can't run that play with 10 seconds left like we used to. I suspect some of it is b/c we don't have anyone to run the pick and roll. It turns into an iso play and when we have 3 dynamic offensive threats, it does seem silly to slow it down. I'm sure K would respond with the fact they were tired but when you are a historically good offensive team, you'd think you'd want to maximize possessions.

Great post!!!! Hope the NCAA will implement the 24 second shot clock evaporating some of the agony. Stall ball is ugly to watch.

Maybe I'm mistaken but I remember the 91/92 teams playing with passion and never taking their foot of the gas, or at least until they had a 25-30 point lead.

As another poster stated "Duke won and Carolina lost" - great day indeed.

somf4eva
03-15-2014, 08:39 AM
Could the K quote that Keeley tweeted about Rodney in any way reference his inability to play last year? Perhaps he was lamenting he wasnt available a year ago?

I recognize that Hood could be a great player at the next level, but I never assumed he was a lock for leaving. Was hoping to see him again next year.

cspan37421
03-15-2014, 08:56 AM
Well SVP may have backtracked in one part of the 'net, but ESPN's Recap of the game has him narrating the "where's the foul on Hood?" followed by "this is NO foul?" on [Thornton].

Anyone watching these highlights will definitely come away thinking that Duke got 2 gifts in a row from the zebras to give them the game. Oh, what power editors have! What a way one can twist reality by suppressing camera footage from other angles!

Just my 2 cents:

We don't need a jerk to win out, unless that jerk can anchor a top 10 defense. Who was the jerk on the 2010 championship team? 2001?

It is a marvel that after so many days off, we continue to be gassed after 30 minutes of play. Short bench late, yes, but the bottom line is that this team does not have the defensive strength that was so characteristic of most of Coach K's teams. I remember earlier someone saying that a tenet of Army basketball was "we rest on offense, never on defense." That may explain some of the late game stall ball, but think about that - imagine what it would look like if they were resting on defense! Sometimes it looks like they are.

Henderson
03-15-2014, 09:11 AM
The truth is that Clemson had a guard we had trouble stopping, were strong inside and hit some threes at the end while our threes were not falling again.


Interesting use of the active then passive voice. We did not shoot the ball well. Again. 40% from the field and 23% from 3 is not going to get it done most nights, and shooting like that going forward will be big trouble. Plus, the fact that we are prone to those sorts of numbers at times will undoubtedly mean we'll be forced to shoot from outside more, as teams clog the middle and/or zone us. Fortunately, the team really shot well from the line (89%), which really saved the bacon. Rodney Hood had ice water in his veins on that last 1-1. Nice job by the team rebounding and taking care of the ball too.

Glad for the win. Bring on the pack.

weezie
03-15-2014, 09:17 AM
Don't think it's so much that the team is gassed due to a lack of conditioning but more due to the bigger, older bodies banging into our relatively young group. The clemmies brought major muscle and it just gave us a pounding.

grad_devil
03-15-2014, 09:18 AM
Just watched the 10am Sportscenter, and Digger called the Hood foul and matter-of-factly states that Thornton's strip was all ball.

Digger? The "Voice of Reason"? What's next? Dogs and cats...playing together...mass hysteria!

Papa John
03-15-2014, 09:27 AM
Could the K quote that Keeley tweeted about Rodney in any way reference his inability to play last year? Perhaps he was lamenting he wasnt available a year ago?

I recognize that Hood could be a great player at the next level, but I never assumed he was a lock for leaving. Was hoping to see him again next year.

Personally, I think Hood is more likely to leave than Jabari, although I would imagine they'll both go. Seems there is a slight possibility that Jabari will decide that staying to enjoy another year of the college experience and learn alongside the best coach in the business is the best decision for his future. Hood's situation is totally different, having now played two years of college ball and sat out a year, he is likely close to fulfilling his degree requirements and is in more of a position where staying probably won't help his draft standing. I'd love to see them both return, I just find it highly unlikely...

sporthenry
03-15-2014, 09:49 AM
So when do people think we went into stall ball? After being up 10 with 10 minutes left, here are the length of our possessions:

Time
8 Jabari Turnover
17 Hood blocked shot (Amile got an offensive board which led to a Hood 3 8 seconds later)
21 Jabari missed shot
17 Jabari Dunk
32 Hood fouled
22 Sheed layup
33 Amile missed jumper
32 Sheed missed 3 (Amile offensive rebound which led to TT turnover 29 seconds later)
34 Sheed made lay up
16 Jabari lay up
22 Sheed missed 3
30 Sheed fouled (missed 1 of 2)
31 Sheed missed layup

Probably be better to see how much time is on shot clock since time runs off after made baskets or during rebounds before the shot clock is reset. But this means Duke had positive endings on 2-4 possessions under 20 seconds, 0-3 on 20-29 seconds and 3-6 on 30+ possessions. So stall ball was seemingly as productive as going fast. Also need to remember that b/c of Clemson's defense, opponent's take the 3rd longest time on defense to begin with.

Now on the flip side, stall ball isn't supposed to lead to easy baskets on the other end. Even when you take a bad shot late in the shot clock, people are supposed to get back on defense. So that is just poor defense and can't be put on stall ball.

jv001
03-15-2014, 09:50 AM
Whew, I just finished reading all the posts on this thread. Some comments:
Duke and Clemson played a tough hard fought game and neither team should be disappointed. Duke let a lead slip away as they have been prone to do throughout the season. We had a long scoring drought in the first half as well as another one in the second half. Game winning plays by Rodney and Tyler down the stretch. Jabari was out of position more than one time last night. In one instance, Jabari was trying to tell Amile where to go on defense and Amile looked at him like he was out of his mind. To me, it looked like Jabari was confused. Well, let's beat State and GoDuke!

somf4eva
03-15-2014, 10:08 AM
Personally, I think Hood is more likely to leave than Jabari, although I would imagine they'll both go. Seems there is a slight possibility that Jabari will decide that staying to enjoy another year of the college experience and learn alongside the best coach in the business is the best decision for his future. Hood's situation is totally different, having now played two years of college ball and sat out a year, he is likely close to fulfilling his degree requirements and is in more of a position where staying probably won't help his draft standing. I'd love to see them both return, I just find it highly unlikely...

I agree with what you are saying but for most of the season assumed it would be the other way around. I love the intensity that Rodney brings every time he plays.

moonpie23
03-15-2014, 10:24 AM
i NEVER text or talk on the phone during a game and my friends know this, however, it doesn't stop THEM from blowing up my phone….especially when things aren't going great for duke

Last night's text convo with unc fan named "Chad".

Chad: dood….really? clemson?

me: (nothing)

Chad: Man, i know WE lost today, but really!!! CLEMSON?

Me: (nothing)

Chad: when are you guys gonna start chucking up 3's?

Me: (nothing)

Chas: Tigers dominating DUKE!!

Me: (nothing)

Chad: Coach K not able to get his guys going….poor coaching…..wojo had better take over!

Me: (nothing)

Chad: OMG! that was NOT a foul….HOOD JUST FELL DOWN!!!!!!!

Me: (nothing)

Chad: duke refs !!

Me: (nothing)

Chad: OMG !!! REFS AGAIN!!! Thornton AND hood BOTH TRIPPED HIM!!!!

Me: oh, man…..is duke playing right now?

Me: what's the Score?

Me: how much time left?

Chad: lol….well played man, well played...

jv001
03-15-2014, 10:24 AM
I am wondering for limited minutes for Dawkins(7) 1 missed shot and 1 turnover, Plumlee(11) 4 rebounds with 2 offensive rebounds and Quinn (12) minutes, none in the closing minutes, 2/3 field goals, 1/2 threes, 5 points, 2 assists and 0 turnovers. I thought Quinn had one of his better offensive games. I don't know how he played on defense because I have not reviewed the game. Maybe we'll see more minutes for these 3 today against State. Beat State and GoDuke!

cbarry
03-15-2014, 10:25 AM
You are correct-- 91/92 teams had that killer instinct, and didn't let up once up by 10. In fact, they put the petal to the metal even more, until the lead got to 25-30. As others have said, the 2013-14 team lacks that killer instinct.

I see if moreso as some sort of chemistry problem. We have TONS of talent, but can't seem to play well together. Too many times on offense, we do the weave-handoff at the top of the key several times, then 1 player makes a 1-on-1 move. Don't even get me started on the atrocious defense we play. Good defense has always been a hallmark of Duke teams, but it's oddly very poor this year. No way Clemson should shoot almost 70% in a half.


Great post!!!! Hope the NCAA will implement the 24 second shot clock evaporating some of the agony. Stall ball is ugly to watch.

Maybe I'm mistaken but I remember the 91/92 teams playing with passion and never taking their foot of the gas, or at least until they had a 25-30 point lead.

As another poster stated "Duke won and Carolina lost" - great day indeed.

Newton_14
03-15-2014, 10:26 AM
So when do people think we went into stall ball? After being up 10 with 10 minutes left, here are the length of our possessions:

Time
8 Jabari Turnover
17 Hood blocked shot (Amile got an offensive board which led to a Hood 3 8 seconds later)
21 Jabari missed shot
17 Jabari Dunk
32 Hood fouled
22 Sheed layup
33 Amile missed jumper
32 Sheed missed 3 (Amile offensive rebound which led to TT turnover 29 seconds later)
34 Sheed made lay up
16 Jabari lay up
22 Sheed missed 3
30 Sheed fouled (missed 1 of 2)
31 Sheed missed layup

Probably be better to see how much time is on shot clock since time runs off after made baskets or during rebounds before the shot clock is reset. But this means Duke had positive endings on 2-4 possessions under 20 seconds, 0-3 on 20-29 seconds and 3-6 on 30+ possessions. So stall ball was seemingly as productive as going fast. Also need to remember that b/c of Clemson's defense, opponent's take the 3rd longest time on defense to begin with.

Now on the flip side, stall ball isn't supposed to lead to easy baskets on the other end. Even when you take a bad shot late in the shot clock, people are supposed to get back on defense. So that is just poor defense and can't be put on stall ball.

Our first possession of stall balll came with about 5 minutes and change left with a 9 point lead. We missed a shot and Clemson went down and hit a 3. We missed again (or a turnover) and Clemson scored again. From that point on, we were sort of in a mini version of stall ball regular than the normal version. Once you get below 2 minutes you can't really call it stall ball because most every team at that point is taking the clock down as far as possible in a one possession game like was the case last night.

freshmanjs
03-15-2014, 10:28 AM
You are correct-- 91/92 teams had that killer instinct, and didn't let up once up by 10. In fact, they put the petal to the metal even more, until the lead got to 25-30. As others have said, the 2013-14 team lacks that killer instinct.

I see if moreso as some sort of chemistry problem. We have TONS of talent, but can't seem to play well together. Too many times on offense, we do the weave-handoff at the top of the key several times, then 1 player makes a 1-on-1 move. Don't even get me started on the atrocious defense we play. Good defense has always been a hallmark of Duke teams, but it's oddly very poor this year. No way Clemson should shoot almost 70% in a half.

uh....between feb 5 and march 8, duke 92 did not win a single game by more than 10 points. not one.

jv001
03-15-2014, 10:30 AM
You are correct-- 91/92 teams had that killer instinct, and didn't let up once up by 10. In fact, they put the petal to the metal even more, until the lead got to 25-30. As others have said, the 2013-14 team lacks that killer instinct.

I see if moreso as some sort of chemistry problem. We have TONS of talent, but can't seem to play well together. Too many times on offense, we do the weave-handoff at the top of the key several times, then 1 player makes a 1-on-1 move. Don't even get me started on the atrocious defense we play. Good defense has always been a hallmark of Duke teams, but it's oddly very poor this year. No way Clemson should shoot almost 70% in a half.

Those two teams(91&92) had an All American point guard that could pass, shoot and defend on the ball. Those two teams had one of the best college basketball players of all time. That player wouldn't let Duke lose. This years team has some good players but not the point guard or the latter player mentioned. Beat State and GoDuke!

jv001
03-15-2014, 10:32 AM
i NEVER text or talk on the phone during a game and my friends know this, however, it doesn't stop THEM from blowing up my phone….especially when things aren't going great for duke

Last night's text convo with unc fan named "Chad".

Chad: dood….really? clemson?

me: (nothing)

Chad: Man, i know WE lost today, but really!!! CLEMSON?

Me: (nothing)

Chad: when are you guys gonna start chucking up 3's?

Me: (nothing)

Chas: Tigers dominating DUKE!!

Me: (nothing)

Chad: Coach K not able to get his guys going….poor coaching…..wojo had better take over!

Me: (nothing)

Chad: OMG! that was NOT a foul….HOOD JUST FELL DOWN!!!!!!!

Me: (nothing)

Chad: duke refs !!

Me: (nothing)

Chad: OMG !!! REFS AGAIN!!! Thornton AND hood BOTH TRIPPED HIM!!!!

Me: oh, man…..is duke playing right now?

Me: what's the Score?

Me: how much time left?

Chad: lol….well played man, well played...

While reading this, I thought, he needs to get himself another friend. However after his "well played man, well played, he get's a pass, lol. Beat State and GoDuke!

sporthenry
03-15-2014, 10:37 AM
Our first possession of stall balll came with about 5 minutes and change left with a 9 point lead. We missed a shot and Clemson went down and hit a 3. We missed again (or a turnover) and Clemson scored again. From that point on, we were sort of in a mini version of stall ball regular than the normal version. Once you get below 2 minutes you can't really call it stall ball because most every team at that point is taking the clock down as far as possible in a one possession game like was the case last night.

So essentially, Duke played something like 3 possessions in stall ball. I agree with you that something like Sheed's last layup can't be really constituted as stall ball b/c jacking up a shot early in the shot clock there is just stupid. I think they could have gotten a better shot off but it just seems silly to blame stall ball for all of the problems.

vick
03-15-2014, 10:39 AM
uh....between feb 5 and march 8, duke 92 did not win a single game by more than 10 points. not one.

Yeah. I'm not saying this team is as good as 1992--obviously it isn't--but it's sort of amazing how much the narrative would flip if, let's face it, Pitino hadn't insanely given Grant Hill a wide open pass. We'd be talking about how a super-talented team played indifferent defense for much of the season, relying on superlative offense, which finally caught up with them.

DukeAlumBS
03-15-2014, 10:52 AM
We can complain at everything if we wish. We had a brutal game, and won. The team knows how to win. Next up is NCSU. I feel we will be fine. Clemson gave this team fits. That is seen in the scoring. WE WON!
Duke beats NCSU, and goes on to the title game. I think Pitt looks good BTW going to watch the UVA game!
I think we have an ACC winner here.
Go Duke

Nice day my friends
Jimmy

Troublemaker
03-15-2014, 11:22 AM
Great call by those folks who said Clemson would be a tough matchup. You were right and I was wrong. Even if Duke had maintained or pushed out our double-digit lead instead of blowing it, you folks still would've had a good point there. Clemson took away our threes and forced us to score inside. We did manage to score inside better than we did in Littlejohn (45% on 2s yesterday vs 35% on 2s in Littlejohn) but there was just enough distraction by Clemson's shotblockers (Nnoko, McDaniels, and Djitte) that Duke's offense couldn't finish inside well enough to win the game comfortably by itself. Duke needed better support from its defense down the stretch if we were going to win in a fashion that didn't give Duke supporters a heart attack. And, unfortunately, that support wasn't there yesterday.

Troublemaker
03-15-2014, 11:28 AM
Strong defensive teams worry me the most, because they'll contain our O, and we know our D will make their O look good. Fortunately, NCST has a pretty crappy D, so I expect we'll win tomorrow.

I more or less agree with this. I'd rather play the strong offensive teams than the strong defensive teams. (Although there are exceptions to the rule -- loss vs Notre Dame, win vs UNC in Cameron).

I would expect a very good performance against NC State today since they are a strong O, bad D team.

moonpie23
03-15-2014, 11:52 AM
sorry if this has already been posted

clear view (http://instagram.com/p/ljG3apx6HB/)

MCFinARL
03-15-2014, 12:02 PM
Not sure I can recall another season in which we surrendered this many double-digit leads in the second half of games. Games we have done that to date: @Notre Dame (loss), @Clemson (loss ... although our double-digit lead may have occurred in first half), @UNC (loss), Virginia at home, Maryland at home, @Wake (loss), UNC at home and again tonight against Clemson. As this list of games proves, play with fire enough and it will burn you.

For whatever reason, we are frequently prone to significant periods of major breakdowns -- sometimes defensively, sometimes offensively -- where we mentally just lock up as soon as a game enters its most critical stage. This squad is comprised of far too many veterans and far too much talent for that to happen at the rate of occurrence it is has all season. The time is now to dig down deep and find out what we are really capable of or our tournament bags will not remain unpacked for long. Hopefully we are able to feed off the energy of the crowd tomorrow which will no doubt be as intense as it has all weekend with two traditional ACC rivals squaring off for a trip to the championship on Sunday. This Duke team, more so than most in the past, seems to really require more pushing from the staff and other outside forces to maintain motivation for the full 40 minutes. I don't get it at all.

On a positive note, we won.

For that I am grateful. ACC Tournament Saturday is the saddest day of the year when Duke is not there.

I think someone commented in another thread (which I can't find now) that our players may get mentally fatigued because defense does not come naturally to them and thus it takes a lot of mental energy for them to focus on defense. Late in games, when stressed, they struggle to maintain that mental energy and focus. This seems plausible to me, though of course it's pure speculation.


I was at the game so I didn't have a chance to watch the game closely and look at replays and rewind, etc. Did anyone else think Cook should have been in there a lot more? I didn't think he played bad. If we are going to win a championship I think we need Cook to be our point guard.

Based on watching on TV without re-watching, I thought Cook played very well on offense and was also surprised he didn't see more time. But I didn't focus on his defense; maybe his game was less impressive on that side of the ball?

CDu
03-15-2014, 12:08 PM
The Laura Keeley quote from Sulaimon to Parker ("run the .... play!") makes me wonder. I've seen a LOT of stagnant offense by Duke in the half court. I do wonder if Parker (and perhaps others) just haven't figured out team offense just yet. It would be completely understandable for a freshman superstar to not be used to needing to run a well-oiled offense. I do wonder how much of our seemingly-regular offensive droughts have something to do with this issue.

When we're hitting 3pt shots, we blow teams away. But when we aren't hitting 3pt shots, we often struggle to score. And I suspect it's because our guys aren't always on the same page offensively.

I know folks have talked about Parker's defense being an issue. But I'm wondering if his play within the offense is something to keep an eye on as well. It's something I'll keep an eye on today for sure.

FerryFor50
03-15-2014, 12:13 PM
The Laura Keeley quote from Sulaimon to Parker ("run the .... play!") makes me wonder. I've seen a LOT of stagnant offense by Duke in the half court. I do wonder if Parker (and perhaps others) just haven't figured out team offense just yet. It would be completely understandable for a freshman superstar to not be used to needing to run a well-oiled offense. I do wonder how much of our seemingly-regular offensive droughts have something to do with this issue.

When we're hitting 3pt shots, we blow teams away. But when we aren't hitting 3pt shots, we often struggle to score. And I suspect it's because our guys aren't always on the same page offensively.

I know folks have talked about Parker's defense being an issue. But I'm wondering if his play within the offense is something to keep an eye on as well. It's something I'll keep an eye on today for sure.

Sounds to me like he needs another year to figure it all out. ;)

_Gary
03-15-2014, 12:18 PM
Sounds to me like he needs another year to figure it all out. ;)

Agreed. He and Rodney need to stick around for another year just to refine their offensive abilities. ;)

ChicagoHeel
03-15-2014, 01:15 PM
You guys sure Thornton's strip was clean? I didn't see the game and haven't see the replay so I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other. I did see this picture though...

https://twitter.com/FPDhoopdreams/status/444685848043204608/photo/1

CDu
03-15-2014, 01:21 PM
You guys sure Thornton's strip was clean? I didn't see the game and haven't see the replay so I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other. I did see this picture though...

https://twitter.com/FPDhoopdreams/status/444685848043204608/photo/1

The ball was gone by that point. Incidental contact after the strip. At the point of the actual strip, it was as clean as just about any play in that game.

Could they have called a foul there? Sure. But they'd have to start calling a LOT more contact throughout every game for that to be a legitimate foul.

TampaDuke
03-15-2014, 01:30 PM
Now on the flip side, stall ball isn't supposed to lead to easy baskets on the other end. Even when you take a bad shot late in the shot clock, people are supposed to get back on defense. So that is just poor defense and can't be put on stall ball.

I don't know. I mentioned this in the stall ball thread earlier, but it seems to me that the opposite is true -- that stall ball is necessarily accompanied by soft defense to prevent fouls. This is the aspect of the strategy that I find most difficult to come to terms with.

Use all the clock you want, score or not --just get back and play tough defense and forget about possible fouls until about 1 minute to go.

CDu
03-15-2014, 01:37 PM
I don't know. I mentioned this in the stall ball thread earlier, but it seems to me that the opposite is true -- that stall ball is necessarily accompanied by soft defense to prevent fouls. This is the aspect of the strategy that I find most difficult to come to terms with.

Use all the clock you want, score or not --just get back and play tough defense and forget about possible fouls until about 1 minute to go.

Stall ball is in no way necessitates soft defense. The true idea of stallball is to make the other team take LONGER to score, which would suggest playing good defense. You don't want to foul, either, but you can still play good (read: not soft) defense without fouling.

If this team has mentally connected stall ball with playing soft defense, then that is a problem of this team - not the stall ball philosophy itself.

arnie
03-15-2014, 01:45 PM
Stall ball is in no way necessitates soft defense. The true idea of stallball is to make the other team take LONGER to score, which would suggest playing good defense. You don't want to foul, either, but you can still play good (read: not soft) defense without fouling.

If this team has mentally connected stall ball with playing soft defense, then that is a problem of this team - not the stall ball philosophy itself.

Agree with your point - but I do think the team really softens up on D during stall ball. I don't understand why, but its been a problem all year.

nocilla
03-15-2014, 02:03 PM
You guys sure Thornton's strip was clean? I didn't see the game and haven't see the replay so I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other.

Here is the video evidence. Thornton stripped cleanly. Their forearms collided after the ball was out.


http://www.goduke.com//mediaPortal/player.dbml?POPOUT=1&db_oem_id=4200&id=3223157&catid=1002&start=2.678

NYBri
03-15-2014, 02:16 PM
Sounds to me like he needs another year to figure it all out. ;)

Or three.

jv001
03-15-2014, 02:18 PM
Stall ball is in no way necessitates soft defense. The true idea of stallball is to make the other team take LONGER to score, which would suggest playing good defense. You don't want to foul, either, but you can still play good (read: not soft) defense without fouling.

If this team has mentally connected stall ball with playing soft defense, then that is a problem of this team - not the stall ball philosophy itself.

You are 100% correct regarding soft defense. This team seems to think offense first and defense a distant second at times. Stall ball or delay ball, may have something to do with this mind set. Calapari has said the same thing about his young Kentucky team. Let's hope our players begin to think defense first and offense second. Beat State and GoDuke!

Henderson
03-15-2014, 02:20 PM
Here is the video evidence. Thornton stripped cleanly. Their forearms collided after the ball was out.


http://www.goduke.com//mediaPortal/player.dbml?POPOUT=1&db_oem_id=4200&id=3223157&catid=1002&start=2.678

Nice look. Pretty conclusive. Thanks.

ncexnyc
03-15-2014, 02:25 PM
Watched the game after work early this morning and was expecting a horror show based on what I had read here. Instead what I saw was a first half where we had the lead close to 80-90% of the time and basically the same thing in the second half.

Yes, I realize we dropped 90+ against UNC, but Clemson's D is a lot better. I'd love for us to look like an offensive juggernaut every game, but it just isn't going to be like that. So let's accept last night for what it was, a win for the good guys.

TampaDuke
03-15-2014, 06:31 PM
Stall ball is in no way necessitates soft defense. The true idea of stallball is to make the other team take LONGER to score, which would suggest playing good defense. You don't want to foul, either, but you can still play good (read: not soft) defense without fouling.

If this team has mentally connected stall ball with playing soft defense, then that is a problem of this team - not the stall ball philosophy itself.

No doubt. I understand there's nothing that requires soft defense when employing the stall. Notwithstanding, my eyes tell me that seems to be the case all too often. If there is something about the stall that makes teams play softer on defense, then it should be factored/practiced/etc.

What I'd like to see is one of the statistical gurus really look at this and analyze the effectiveness. The math behind the theory is great and all, but someone should do some analysis to see if it really works as often as theorized. The thought that "we usually when when we play the stall" seems a nonstarter to me. Correlation doesn't mean causation. Would the win percentage be greater or lesser when the stall is employed, that's what we really want to know.

BTW, I'm not linking this to this team at all. These are answers I'd want with any team.

Newton_14
03-15-2014, 07:12 PM
You guys sure Thornton's strip was clean? I didn't see the game and haven't see the replay so I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other. I did see this picture though...

https://twitter.com/FPDhoopdreams/status/444685848043204608/photo/1

So it is certainly up for debate. No question about it. Three arguments for the no call. 1. It was a very unusual/weird play. So unusual it was hard to figure out what the heck happened until watching it over an over in slo mo. 2. Also, G-Man made the point today to Tim Brando(who is sure it was a foul) that the ball went down not up. That's always been considered evidence the defender got all ball on the initial contact. If you get arm/wrist first, the ball goes up. If Tyler got all ball first and only hit the forearm after knockng the ball out, it becomes very much similar to the Hood Dunk attempt against Cuse. 3. At that point in a game an official is almost always going to swallow the whistle and let the players decide it unless the foul is so obvious and egregious that it cannot go ignored. The fact it is being debated puts it in that category. Brando eventually stated just that. He said Hall made a terrible decision trying to get all the way to the rim and end up putting it in the ref's hands to decide. Said Hall took one step too many and should have shot a floater instead or pulled up two steps sooner and shot the midrange jumper. At least then you put the outcome 100% in your control and not the refs.

I don;t feel it was some unpardonable sin to make no call there, but if the situation was reversed I would probably be arguing for a foul too. Just one of them plays.

FerryFor50
03-15-2014, 07:17 PM
So it is certainly up for debate. No question about it. Three arguments for the no call. 1. It was a very unusual/weird play. So unusual it was hard to figure out what the heck happened until watching it over an over in slo mo. 2. Also, G-Man made the point today to Tim Brando(who is sure it was a foul) that the ball went down not up. That's always been considered evidence the defender got all ball on the initial contact. If you get arm/wrist first, the ball goes up. If Tyler got all ball first and only hit the forearm after knockng the ball out, it becomes very much similar to the Hood Dunk attempt against Cuse. 3. At that point in a game an official is almost always going to swallow the whistle and let the players decide it unless the foul is so obvious and egregious that it cannot go ignored. The fact it is being debated puts it in that category. Brando eventually stated just that. He said Hall made a terrible decision trying to get all the way to the rim and end up putting it in the ref's hands to decide. Said Hall took one step too many and should have shot a floater instead or pulled up two steps sooner and shot the midrange jumper. At least then you put the outcome 100% in your control and not the refs.

I don;t feel it was some unpardonable sin to make no call there, but if the situation was reversed I would probably be arguing for a foul too. Just one of them plays.

Also, when you are completely out of control like Hall was, you normally don't get the call at ANY juncture of the game. Just ask Rasheed Sulaimon, who throws his body into drives often and doesn't get the call. The refs don't reward being out of control in most cases.

Newton_14
03-15-2014, 09:03 PM
Also, when you are completely out of control like Hall was, you normally don't get the call at ANY juncture of the game. Just ask Rasheed Sulaimon, who throws his body into drives often and doesn't get the call. The refs don't reward being out of control in most cases.
Yep. Another good point. He started going down before Tyler reached in and a step or two before reaching Rasheed.

moonpie23
03-16-2014, 09:34 AM
there are a number of threads on FB regarding the last play....i've posted this (http://www.goduke.com//mediaPortal/player.dbml?POPOUT=1&db_oem_id=4200&id=3223157&catid=1002&start=2.678)


this evidence has ended a few of them.......the least of which was surrendered with the MOST awesome legal defense ...

"whatever"

:cool: