This Duke team requires "hard" coaching

[Billy Dat]

This is interesting, maybe it speaks to our relative youth?

“I agree with Amile that we do have to play angry,” Capel said. “We have shown at times that we can be as good as anyone. We’ve also shown that we can lose to anyone. When we have let up…Even us as a coaching staff, I’m not going to say we’ve let up. But when we haven’t been jerks, that’s when our guys seem to let up. It’s not what you want but if we have to coach that way we are going to do it.”

http://www.heraldsun.com/sports/duke/x1001076004/Duke-leaves-cozy-confines-hits-road-for-ACC-beyond

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I would say that this speaks to the issue that me and other posters have commented on as late - a lack of a real "leader" on the floor. I posited that this might be because we have great talent, and we have experience, but we don't have veterans with transcendent talent. Expecting a true freshman like Jabari to step up and become that leader is a lot to ask of a young kid, but I think we have seen some evidence that he might be about to make that leap. If so, I think the team will respond very very well, and perhaps might require less "hard" coaching.

Let's win out!

[Bluedog]

I would say that this speaks to the issue that me and other posters have commented on as late - a lack of a real "leader" on the floor. I posited that this might be because we have great talent, and we have experience, but we don't have veterans with transcendent talent. Expecting a true freshman like Jabari to step up and become that leader is a lot to ask of a young kid, but I think we have seen some evidence that he might be about to make that leap. If so, I think the team will respond very very well, and perhaps might require less "hard" coaching.

Let's win out!

TT...yeah, he's not a "transcendent talent," but I don't think that's a requisite to be a leader (although it certainly helps to have your leader + "transcendent talent" in one package since he will then require a lot of minutes and TT, of course, isn't always on the court). I think Coach K agrees that TT is the best leader and hence why he's having him be the starter over Quinn. But, yes, would be nice to see other guys step up too - I think Sulaimon and Quinn both have leadership potential in them. And I agree that Jabari could do it as well - I like what I've seen from him over the last few games from the leadership perspective.

Interesting article and quotes - thanks for linking. You know, the 2010 championship team was undefeated at home and about .500 on the road prior to the ACC tournament...similar to our results this year (although we have two more losses than that team). You never know. :)

[Billy Dat]

TT...yeah, he's not a "transcendent talent," but I don't think that's a requisite to be a leader (although it certainly helps to have your leader + "transcendent talent" in one package since he will then require a lot of minutes and TT, of course, isn't always on the court). I think Coach K agrees that TT is the best leader and hence why he's having him be the starter over Quinn. But, yes, would be nice to see other guys step up too - I think Sulaimon and Quinn both have leadership potential in them. And I agree that Jabari could do it as well - I like what I've seen from him over the last few games from the leadership perspective.

Interesting article and quotes - thanks for linking. You know, the 2010 championship team was undefeated at home and about .500 on the road prior to the ACC tournament...similar to our results this year (although we have two more losses than that team). You never know. :)

Leadership takes many forms. After the Wake loss, I posted my ideas about this team and leadership wondering if we lacked one of our most talented players being a vocal leader? Then, I read an article where Josh was saying that Rodney was too worried about being a vocal leader and he just needed to focus on letting his play do the talking. So much for my theory...

I think you have hit on a lot of relevant points. Thornton has always had that bulldog toughness that K esteems, and has had it from Day 1. I also think he's much more intuitive about how the offense and defense need to run than is Quinn or Rasheed - and its that combination that makes him a good leader and likely why he starts (it helps that he knocks down 3s at an impressive clip).

Jabari's recent "leadership" emergence is, perhaps, the most crucial development of the season. While I am happy he is being more vocal, I think its more of a mentality. K has often talked about leadership being tied to production - you can talk all you want but delivering on both ends is more effective "leadership". Singler was that kind of leader - actions speak louder than words. What I am seeing different in Jabari is that he has assumed the responsibility of being our team's production leader in a very meaningful way - he has taken ownership of it - and I think its different than earlier in the year because he has gotten smarter about how he does it - less step back 3s and more driving, making sure he is working hard to get open and demanding the ball when we need a bucket. I think he can go even further in those last two areas, but he seems to be done deferring and trying to fit in.

If he can inspire his teammates with that kind of leadership, maybe the coaches won't have to be such "jerks". But, with only two more guaranteed games, I suggest they keep up the jerky behavior.

[Gthoma2a]

In this case, a leader could be a kid who is a bit of a jerk. I think this being one of the nicer teams could hurt us. You need that guy who is going to get agitated on a team. Say what you will, but it can help the chemistry to have a jerk or two on the court (and, according to Coach Capel, on the bench as well). I think a jerk can keep us from getting complacent and accepting when it isn't our night, just by knowing that you have to fly back with him on the way home. I'd imagine that Laettner would have been a bit of a jerk to any player who wasn't playing up to potential (Hurley, as well).

[Saratoga2]

Leadership is fine but you also need to have the right matchups on the floor together and it also helps that we keep fresh legs out there as well. Jabari can provide that leadership and he is a matchup nightmare for our opponents. The question is whether he can go the entire 40 minutes or needs a break here and there. Quinn and Tyler and smaller guards who are not super athletic. They are tough and skilled but against top guard talent, they may not be the best at matching up. Rasheed is bigger and more athletic but may be a little short on handling and game understanding. We do have Matt, who can defend well and is a tough kid. Andre can fill in for Rodney and give him a break. I think we need to consider matchups as at least as important and leaadership.

[OldPhiKap]

Leadership takes many forms. After the Wake loss, I posted my ideas about this team and leadership wondering if we lacked one of our most talented players being a vocal leader? Then, I read an article where Josh was saying that Rodney was too worried about being a vocal leader and he just needed to focus on letting his play do the talking. So much for my theory...

I think you have hit on a lot of relevant points. Thornton has always had that bulldog toughness that K esteems, and has had it from Day 1. I also think he's much more intuitive about how the offense and defense need to run than is Quinn or Rasheed - and its that combination that makes him a good leader and likely why he starts (it helps that he knocks down 3s at an impressive clip).

Jabari's recent "leadership" emergence is, perhaps, the most crucial development of the season. While I am happy he is being more vocal, I think its more of a mentality. K has often talked about leadership being tied to production - you can talk all you want but delivering on both ends is more effective "leadership". Singler was that kind of leader - actions speak louder than words. What I am seeing different in Jabari is that he has assumed the responsibility of being our team's production leader in a very meaningful way - he has taken ownership of it - and I think its different than earlier in the year because he has gotten smarter about how he does it - less step back 3s and more driving, making sure he is working hard to get open and demanding the ball when we need a bucket. I think he can go even further in those last two areas, but he seems to be done deferring and trying to fit in.

If he can inspire his teammates with that kind of leadership, maybe the coaches won't have to be such "jerks". But, with only two more guaranteed games, I suggest they keep up the jerky behavior.

This. And Rodney as well.

Twice against Carolina, I saw Jabari grab Sheed and haul him into the huddle to quit crabbing about a call and move on. And K specifically mentioned in the post game PC that Rodney was great because he did not defer or wilt.

I still say, we go as far as Quinn takes us. But these two, if they are both playing well, makes us a damn potent team.

[OldPhiKap]

In this case, a leader could be a kid who is a bit of a jerk. I think this being one of the nicer teams could hurt us. You need that guy who is going to get agitated on a team. Say what you will, but it can help the chemistry to have a jerk or two on the court (and, according to Coach Capel, on the bench as well). I think a jerk can keep us from getting complacent and accepting when it isn't our night, just by knowing that you have to fly back with him on the way home. I'd imagine that Laettner would have been a bit of a jerk to any player who wasn't playing up to potential (Hurley, as well).

Laettner was merciless on teammates, especially Bobby. Famous story about the 1992 Final, against Michigan's Fab Five freshmen. Laettner absolutely sucked in the first half. Worst half he played in a game since his freshman year, by a long shot. I mean, fugly awful. Hurley decided to get in Laettner's face at half, dishing out what he had been getting for four years.

Beginning of second half, Hurley drives down the middle and flips the ball over his shoulder to Christian for an easy deuce. Then Laettner went en fuego grande. I think we won by about twenty.

[ice-9]

This team needs to learn that mistakes add up. Sometimes Rodney will forget to block out his man. Or Dawkins misses his assignment. Or Jabari over-helps. Or Quinn pouts on a missed pass and doesn't run back in transition fast enough.

These all seem like small mistakes, the kind you say "my bad" to in a pick-up game and forget about. But if even five players make just one "my bad" mistake that leads to a basket, that's 10 points per game. That's the difference between winning and losing, the difference between a good defensive team and an average one.

This team needs to eliminate all these small mistakes, and they need to recognize that each small mistake can cost them the game. So they must focus. They must play angry, they must learn to push themselves even harder every time they do make a mistake to make up for it.

This is what Duke's leader on the court needs to hold everyone accountable to.

[roywhite]

Jabari's recent "leadership" emergence is, perhaps, the most crucial development of the season. While I am happy he is being more vocal, I think its more of a mentality. K has often talked about leadership being tied to production - you can talk all you want but delivering on both ends is more effective "leadership". Singler was that kind of leader - actions speak louder than words. What I am seeing different in Jabari is that he has assumed the responsibility of being our team's production leader in a very meaningful way - he has taken ownership of it - and I think its different than earlier in the year because he has gotten smarter about how he does it - less step back 3s and more driving, making sure he is working hard to get open and demanding the ball when we need a bucket. I think he can go even further in those last two areas, but he seems to be done deferring and trying to fit in.

If he can inspire his teammates with that kind of leadership, maybe the coaches won't have to be such "jerks". But, with only two more guaranteed games, I suggest they keep up the jerky behavior.

Agreed. And to add for Jabari -- he's great at grabbing a clutch rebound in traffic and has had a few key blocks.

K has said in general that the young guys are no longer freshmen by the end of the regular season, meaning they have learned their roles, they have gotten used to the pressure and the competition, and they no longer defer just on the basis of seniority. Seems true about Jabari. He is key to our success....and up to the task.

[devildeac]

Laettner was merciless on teammates, especially Bobby. Famous story about the 1992 Final, against Michigan's Fab Five freshmen. Laettner absolutely sucked in the first half. Worst half he played in a game since his freshman year, by a long shot. I mean, fugly awful. Hurley decided to get in Laettner's face at half, dishing out what he had been getting for four years.

Beginning of second half, Hurley drives down the middle and flips the ball over his shoulder to Christian for an easy deuce. Then Laettner went en fuego grande. I think we won by about twenty.

Hurley told Laettner at the half in that game (paraphrasing) that if he was going to suck that bad in the second half (5 points and 7 turnovers, IIRC), don't even bother coming out of the locker room. K knew the mantle of leadership had been passed with that exchange, Christian still screwed up his first play of the second half but K knew the fire had been lit and he had a great second half as OPK posted above. This is from my recall of A Season Is a Lifetime. Laettner was also merciless toward Cherokee Parks. Parks "complained" to K about it and K sat Christian down and asked him to change his behavior toward Parks and Laettner obliged. Parks had very few unproductive games after that. Once again, from my memory of reading my autographed copy of that book over 20 years ago;).

[throatybeard]

So if I may jump ahead, what we need is fetching Canadian and British women holding brooms and yelling "HARD HARD HARD" at the top of their lungs.

[Troublemaker]

Leadership is fine but you also need to have the right matchups on the floor together and it also helps that we keep fresh legs out there as well. Jabari can provide that leadership and he is a matchup nightmare for our opponents. The question is whether he can go the entire 40 minutes or needs a break here and there. Quinn and Tyler and smaller guards who are not super athletic. They are tough and skilled but against top guard talent, they may not be the best at matching up. Rasheed is bigger and more athletic but may be a little short on handling and game understanding. We do have Matt, who can defend well and is a tough kid. Andre can fill in for Rodney and give him a break. I think we need to consider matchups as at least as important and leaadership.

No kidding. Who isn't considering matchups?

Also, Jabari hasn't played all 40 minutes yet this season. He averages 30.3 mpg

[NYBri]

Worst part about Jabari leaving will be that we won't see that complete player/leader evolve into what we saw Shane achieve.

Seeing him during his senior year was why I follow college basketball... Watching young players develop into complete young men.

[OldPhiKap]

So if I may jump ahead, what we need is fetching Canadian and British women holding brooms and yelling "HARD HARD HARD" at the top of their lungs.

What does Dan Meagher have to do with this?

[greybeard]

From my perspective, Duke has shown best when K platoons in the first half. There is in that I believe much more than simply making the most of shortened minutes. I think it makes players lose self absorption, more apt to want to match the hunger of guys who are. I think that starters, if they are good souls, really appreciate that teammates whom they know can compete are getting a chance that is all too often denied them by coaches.

Common doctrine seems to take as immutable the proposition that outcomes are best achieved by playing the top 7 or 8 players. I think Duke's platoon deployment has belied that convention. It is entirely possible that moving away from platoon leaves Duke diminished. The coaches, in such circumstances, send a message none of the players like. None.

I don't think that any of the starting five would rather Josh not get the chance to play on a platooned unit say 7-8 minutes the first half. Actually, I don't think that any of them like that he is not getting that chance. Do any of you?

[hustleplays]

Many of you have already made such important points. This team has lacked sufficiently tough leadership on the court. Leadership ultimately is shown by results. In this case, not necessarily by the final results, that is, winning or losing, but by the "results" of the sustained effort, HOW the team has played. If certain shots don't fall, so be it. But if we see a pattern of collapsing leads, of late game breakdowns on O an D, of offensive players resorting to hero ball, of bad body language, of hugely talented players not playing to their full capacity, that is a lack of leadership.

Many posters, on many threads, have pointed out the specifics as to why this team doesn't have the legendary leadership of the great Duke teams. TT is amazing, has such a full heart and total courage, but he doesn't have the skills and stature -- and is often not on the court in crunch time -- to fully fill the leadership bill.

Billy Dat, I think you are spot on, and Josh H, with all due respect, is wrong. We do need Rodney to score, but we have also needed his leadership all year long. Rodney has gradually been growing into a leadership role, and we've needed every bit of it. It is a tremendous advantage when a highly skilled PG is also the team leader, but we just don't have that person this year.

I agree with several of you that the emergence of Jabari's leadership is one of the most positive, important indicators this season. We all saw him corral a frustrated, distracted Sulaimon. After the game, Jabari said, "It's time to grow up." I hope he goes all out and keeps attacking and keeps leading.

A player leader doesn't have to be a jerk, but they have to be totally forceful, no excuses whatever. I was told by a person in the program that not only Hurley but also Coach K got on Laettner -- big time, very forcefully -- at half time. Laettner sure got the message.

Ice-9, I agree, we have to cut down the "my bads" and I hope that Jabari's leadership will help.

Greybeard, I for one, and I've posted about this more than once [sorry], believe that not playing the bench more is very detrimental to team chemistry. Jabari and Matt Jones are roommates. Jabari is a kind and sensitive soul. Can anyone think that it doesn't weigh on him that his roomie doesn't play, when Jabari is being highly celebrated? Imagine their coming back to their room. Recently, Coach K himself said, and I wish that I could retrieve the exact quote, that we are playing more guys, so that they stay ready, that they feel part of the team and that they don't lose their confidence. I was surprised but glad that K said this. I think, though, that he has built up strong habits to play fewer players in crunch time. Please, Coach, put all these strong, eager hearts, fresh legs, and good to great talent out on the court. Create the strongest camaraderie possible by fielding a team of PLAYERS, not a group of guys fighting for precious minutes. What we lose on "paper talent", we gain in energy and unity.

This may not be the most relaxing, predictable team to watch, but it's exciting and I hope we see the team's leadership grow just in time for the post season.

[gep]

I think the "potential" of 3 games in 3 days will enforce this platoon system... at least in the first half, and at least the first substitution in the second half. Not only does it keep the starters from wearing out, as others have mentioned, it gives the whole team an energy boost. I'm looking for more of this "liberal" substitution pattern :cool:

[Kedsy]

Can anyone think that it doesn't weigh on him that his roomie doesn't play, when Jabari is being highly celebrated? Imagine their coming back to their room.

I join you in liking the line change system, at least for a couple rounds in the first half, but I disagree with the above quote. I can't imagine it weighs on Jabari at all. He doesn't make playing time decisions. And during the games I wouldn't think there's any room in his head for how many minutes his friends are getting or should get.

I'd be surprised if Jabari's success bothers Matt at all, either. I'm sure Matt wishes he could get more game time, but I highly doubt he associates that with anything having to do with Jabari.

[Matches]

Agreed - this isn't Little League. If the line changes help the team play better, then so be it (and I think they have, at times). But no, I don't really want to see Josh on the floor for 7-8 minutes in the first half (IOW almost half of the half) just for the sake of having him out there or being more egalitarian. If he's playing well, great - by all means, play him more.

[Troublemaker]

I think the "potential" of 3 games in 3 days will enforce this platoon system... at least in the first half, and at least the first substitution in the second half. Not only does it keep the starters from wearing out, as others have mentioned, it gives the whole team an energy boost. I'm looking for more of this "liberal" substitution pattern :cool:

Agreed. I'm expecting at least some platooning on Friday. I don't think we will see it on Saturday if Cuse is the opponent, though.

[Clay Feet POF]

From my perspective, Duke has shown best when K platoons in the first half. There is in that I believe much more than simply making the most of shortened minutes. I think it makes players lose self absorption, more apt to want to match the hunger of guys who are. I think that starters, if they are good souls, really appreciate that teammates whom they know can compete are getting a chance that is all too often denied them by coaches.

Common doctrine seems to take as immutable the proposition that outcomes are best achieved by playing the top 7 or 8 players. I think Duke's platoon deployment has belied that convention. It is entirely possible that moving away from platoon leaves Duke diminished. The coaches, in such circumstances, send a message none of the players like. None.

I don't think that any of the starting five would rather Josh not get the chance to play on a platooned unit say 7-8 minutes the first half. Actually, I don't think that any of them like that he is not getting that chance. Do any of you?

Absolutely agree! I don’t think we really used it for a full half, and when we did use it.IMHO the effects were positive. Besides providing rest for starters, the more important aspect are building confidence, providing game development and most important really being part of the “GAME team.”

My theory is that Alex Murphy would have blossomed in this environment. If I remember his two high schools teammate are important contributors. Nik Stauskas at Michigan and Kaleb Tarczewski at Arizona and arguably Alex was the best of the three. I think Alex will be a star at Florida.

Anyways I’m with Greybeard on this one.

Hey Greybeard, did you get any answer to your Plumlee offence question posted on the “If Plumlee Declare” thread?

[77devil]

Laettner was merciless on teammates, especially Bobby. Famous story about the 1992 Final, against Michigan's Fab Five freshmen. Laettner absolutely sucked in the first half. Worst half he played in a game since his freshman year, by a long shot. I mean, fugly awful. Hurley decided to get in Laettner's face at half, dishing out what he had been getting for four years.

Beginning of second half, Hurley drives down the middle and flips the ball over his shoulder to Christian for an easy deuce. Then Laettner went en fuego grande. I think we won by about twenty.

Yep, Laettner was after Hurley from day one when K handed him the ball and, in effect, anointed him starting point guard. Would like too see someone on this team take the Laettner role, if not to his extreme, but it requires having the chops to be credible. Neither Jabari or Rodney seem to have the aggressive personality to do so, and no one else has the game.

[OldPhiKap]

Yep, Laettner was after Hurley from day one when K handed him the ball and, in effect, anointed him starting point guard. Would like too see someone on this team take the Laettner role, if not to his extreme, but it requires having the chops to be credible. Neither Jabari or Rodney seem to have the aggressive personality to do so, and no one else has the game.

Jabari reminds me of Grant Hill in that regard. Really deferential as a freshman, did not seek or feel it was appropriate to be the leader.

Jabari seems to have stepped it up mentally in the last few games in this regard, though. I think the light has clicked.