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Jeffrey236
03-03-2014, 08:30 AM
Pat Forde skewers Cal pretty well. Seems like the one-and-done thing is beginning to unravel.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/you-made-your-bed-john-calipari--now-lie-in-it-233738456-ncaab.html

TruBlu
03-03-2014, 09:07 AM
Coach Cal does not get in trouble. Every school he coaches get in trouble.

FerryFor50
03-03-2014, 09:12 AM
LOL

Exactly the stuff (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?33260-Carolina-72-Kentucky-67&p=709743#post709743) I've been saying about him this season....

He's a tool.

Some highlights from the article:


After losing to Arkansas at home Thursday, you mentioned "a couple no-shows" without naming names. And you blamed forward Julius Randle for wearing down by not taking himself out of the lineup. "I'm trying to get guys to sub themselves," you said. "They just don't get it." For $5.2 million a year, you'd think the coach could add "manage the substitution rotation" to his list of responsibilities, as opposed to leaving it up to the players. Who are young. (Stop me if you've heard this before: Kentucky has a young team.)


Then there was your comment to the Kentucky radio crew Saturday night: "They're counting on me too much." Apparently we are reaching the Pontius Pilate stage of the season, where the coach washes his hands and turns an increasingly unpleasant endeavor over to the unpaid laborers


What happened to this plan: "What we're going to have is unbelievable competition. We may have three teams, so 15 guys that can play. Let's go." That was the antidote for a "hijacking" – the bench. Guys who were not playing well were going to sit.

Instead, you've played seven guys. Four players – Julius Randle, James Young and the Harrison twins – average more than 30 minutes per game. Last year, Team Hijack had three players averaging that many minutes. When it comes to playing time, there is little disincentive for poor performance. The stars get the minutes, even if they aren't getting the job done.

And my favorite:


Can the 40-0 T-shirts people have been using to wax their cars be forwarded to the good people of Wichita? Just in case?

flyingdutchdevil
03-03-2014, 09:14 AM
I'm a Pat Forde fan. I know a lot of people aren't big on him in DBR, but I like his frankness and style of writing. This article reads just like the infamous Guy Fieri review in the NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/14/dining/reviews/restaurant-review-guys-american-kitchen-bar-in-times-square.html?_r=0

roywhite
03-03-2014, 09:17 AM
Pat Forde skewers Cal pretty well. Seems like the one-and-done thing is beginning to unravel.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/you-made-your-bed-john-calipari--now-lie-in-it-233738456-ncaab.html

Some sharp jabs from Forde for sure, and well deserved.

Coach Cal outdoes even Ole Roy in his inclination to throw individual players under the bus.

An early NCAA exit for the 'Cats would provide some good entertainment value.

Henderson
03-03-2014, 09:22 AM
I miss John Chaney.

20 years last month. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6jUpHClybQ)

CameronBornAndBred
03-03-2014, 09:32 AM
Had Calipari shown up to answer questions Saturday after the worst defeat of his Kentucky tenure, instead of sending assistant John Robic and two freshmen to the interview room, here are the questions Calipari should have been asked.
Someone forgot about losing to Robert Morris in the NIT.

flyingdutchdevil
03-03-2014, 09:35 AM
Some sharp jabs from Forde for sure, and well deserved.

Coach Cal outdoes even Ole Roy in his inclination to throw individual players under the bus.

An early NCAA exit for the 'Cats would provide some good entertainment value.

The good news about having the Harrison twins is that Cal can spread the blame!

When's Cal bolting for the NBA? You know some dumb GM is gonna take a chance on him.

Henderson
03-03-2014, 09:44 AM
An early NCAA exit for the 'Cats would provide some good entertainment value.

Wouldn't it be fun if CBS or TBS borrowed Bob Knight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3RMzjd3wYg) to do color commentary on that game?

Henderson
03-03-2014, 09:47 AM
When's Cal bolting for the NBA? You know some dumb GM is gonna take a chance on him.

Because Cal is demonstrating his expertise at handling young talent.

FerryFor50
03-03-2014, 09:48 AM
Because Cal is demonstrating his expertise at handling young talent.

Cal's one strength - recruiting - would be wasted at the NBA level. It's hard to recruit better than everyone else when EVERYONE can pay players to come to their organization... ;)

roywhite
03-03-2014, 09:49 AM
The good news about having the Harrison twins is that Cal can spread the blame!

When's Cal bolting for the NBA? You know some dumb GM is gonna take a chance on him.

Cal usually moves on when the sheriff gets too close, which could happen at Kentucky, I suppose. Not sure what he would do if he and the Wildcats part ways; he's 55 years old, a little early for leaving the spotlight that he generally enjoys. His previous NBA experience with the Nets was not real successful, with an overall record of 72 wins and 112 losses. I suppose he could go to the pros, but he has stated a strong preference for college ball.

I'd guess that he'll continue on at Kentucky, even if this season ends badly. He's got the usual crop of McDonald's All-America players coming in -- two frontcourt players (Karl Townes and Trey Lyles) and two backcourt players (Devin Booker and Tyler Ullis); it'll be interesting to see which players from this season's roster declare for the draft. This 2013-14 group doesn't seem to have fit together very well, and it hasn't been Calipari's best job.

FerryFor50
03-03-2014, 09:56 AM
Cal usually moves on when the sheriff gets too close, which could happen at Kentucky, I suppose. Not sure what he would do if he and the Wildcats part ways; he's 55 years old, a little early for leaving the spotlight that he generally enjoys. His previous NBA experience with the Nets was not real successful, with an overall record of 72 wins and 112 losses. I suppose he could go to the pros, but he has stated a strong preference for college ball.

I'd guess that he'll continue on at Kentucky, even if this season ends badly. He's got the usual crop of McDonald's All-America players coming in -- two frontcourt players (Karl Townes and Trey Lyles) and two backcourt players (Devin Booker and Tyler Ullis); it'll be interesting to see which players from this season's roster declare for the draft. This 2013-14 group doesn't seem to have fit together very well, and it hasn't been Calipari's best job.

I'm more curious as to what happens if a lot of guys expected to go decide to stick around. Kind of throws a wrench in the Cal "one and done" factory, where the premise is promise of playing time from day 1.

Who rides the pine next year? The incoming guys or the former blue-chippers? How do the players handle it? Does Cal run off more players? What happens when prospective recruits finally start to figure out that Cal never really cared about them as much as he pretended to?

Henderson
03-03-2014, 09:59 AM
[I]t'll be interesting to see which players from this season's roster declare for the draft. This 2013-14 group doesn't seem to have fit together very well, and it hasn't been Calipari's best job.

Some great NBA prospects have a difficult decision: "Should I take my chances in the draft or return to polish my game under a great coach who will help me get better?"

Some don't.

Why would a UK player with a choice choose to come back to UK?

FerryFor50
03-03-2014, 10:02 AM
Some great NBA prospects have a difficult decision: "Should I take my chances in the draft or return to polish my game under a great coach who will help me get better?"

Some don't.

Why would a UK player with a choice choose to come back to UK?

Ask Willy Cauley-Stein. Or Alex Poythress.

Either of them could have gone in the NBA draft, possibly in the first round (particularly Cauley-Stein).

Kedsy
03-03-2014, 10:11 AM
Some great NBA prospects have a difficult decision: "Should I take my chances in the draft or return to polish my game under a great coach who will help me get better?"

Some don't.

Why would a UK player with a choice choose to come back to UK?

From what I've heard, Cal has always been a shady recruiter. But some of you are going off the deep end here. His coaching has always been pretty good, in my opinion. His UMass and Memphis teams always played solid to really good defense (and most of his UK teams, too), and he gives his players a lot of offensive freedom (not unlike Coach K in that regard). His former players (at least the ones he hasn't run out of town) all seem to be loyal to him. He promised them an NBA career and for the most part he has delivered.

As far as being a "UK player with a choice," from what I understand they're treated like royalty during their time at Kentucky. Much better treatment than all but the very top of the top will get out in the NBA. If you're not sure of your draft prospects, who wouldn't want to go back to that.

Cal doesn't always appear to play by the rules -- for that he's rightfully earned some disdain -- and he may or may not be in trouble right now, but this talk about him being a poor coach or not having his player's interest at heart, or suggesting players don't enjoy their time in Lexington, seems rather silly to me.

Henderson
03-03-2014, 10:11 AM
Ask Willy Cauley-Stein. Or Alex Poythress.

Either of them could have gone in the NBA draft, possibly in the first round (particularly Cauley-Stein).

Well, Cauley-Stein did tear his ACL in February of 2013, so he may have been thinking of this year as a rehab year. Alex Poythress though... There was talk this time last year of him as a lottery pick.

But your point is well-taken. Neither Cauley-Stein nor Poythress is in UK's top 5 for playing time this year. For Cal, it seems one-and-done becomes one-and-pine. That probably helps recruiting ("Hey don't worry about Player X returning; you'll get more PT."). Since Cal counts on the players to rotate themselves (not the coach's job), maybe Willie and Alex just need to jump up and head to the scorer's table when they feel frisky.

flyingdutchdevil
03-03-2014, 10:15 AM
Well, Cauley-Stein did tear his ACL in February of 2013, so he may have been thinking of this year as a rehab year. Alex Poythress though... There was talk this time last year of him as a lottery pick.

But your point is well-taken. Neither Cauley-Stein nor Poythress is in UK's top 5 for playing time this year. For Cal, it seems one-and-done becomes one-and-pine. That probably helps recruiting ("Hey don't worry about Player X returning; you'll get more PT.").

WCS is still a first round pick. He has major talent, and big men with the talent to protect the paint don't grow on trees.

Alex Poythress is a fascinating case. This is a player with a lot of size, talent, and an NBA-ready body. IMO, there are few coaching jobs out there that have been as pathetic as Cal and Alex Poythress. If Alex had come to Duke (or any other school), he would have been a double-double threat every night. Poythress is the poster child for why players SHOULDN'T go to any Cal school.

FerryFor50
03-03-2014, 10:17 AM
WCS is still a first round pick. He has major talent, and big men with the talent to protect the paint don't grow on trees.

Alex Poythress is a fascinating case. This is a player with a lot of size, talent, and an NBA-ready body. IMO, there are few coaching jobs out there that have been as pathetic as Cal and Alex Poythress. If Alex had come to Duke (or any other school), he would have been a double-double threat every night. Poythress is the poster child for why players SHOULDN'T go to any Cal school.

Duke was actually heavy into Poythress's recruiting, if I recall.

However, if we get Poythress, do we get Jabari the next year? Do we get Hood? Given what we know now, I'm glad things turned out like they did.

tommy
03-03-2014, 10:20 AM
I'm more curious as to what happens if a lot of guys expected to go decide to stick around. Kind of throws a wrench in the Cal "one and done" factory, where the premise is promise of playing time from day 1.

Who rides the pine next year? The incoming guys or the former blue-chippers?

In addition to Alex Poythress, who others have already mentioned, guys like Kyle Wiltjer and Ryan Harrow might have an idea as to how to answer that question.

flyingdutchdevil
03-03-2014, 10:23 AM
Duke was actually heavy into Poythress's recruiting, if I recall.

However, if we get Poythress, do we get Jabari the next year? Do we get Hood? Given what we know now, I'm glad things turned out like they did.

We were one of Poythress's favorites. I disagree with the Jabari and the Hood comments, but this really isn't my point at all.

Poythress has talent. And Cal is doing a poor job of utilizing it (if at all).

FerryFor50
03-03-2014, 10:24 AM
We were one of Poythress's favorites. I disagree with the Jabari and the Hood comments, but this really isn't my point at all.

Poythress has talent. And Cal is doing a poor job of utilizing it (if at all).

No, I agree with your point. Just I went the route of, what if we had gotten Poythress?

azzefkram
03-03-2014, 10:33 AM
cal's one strength - recruiting - would be wasted at the nba level. It's hard to recruit better than everyone else when everyone can pay players to come to their organization... ;)

iswydt

Kedsy
03-03-2014, 10:37 AM
Well, Cauley-Stein did tear his ACL in February of 2013, so he may have been thinking of this year as a rehab year.

Also, what are you talking about with the Cauley-Stein injury? He played 36 minutes against Robert Morris in UK's final game last year. So he definitely didn't tear his ACL in February. He played 18 minutes in the season opener this year, so I don't think he injured himself over the summer either.

superdave
03-03-2014, 10:37 AM
Calipari is two years out from going 38-2 and winning the title. He has a great recruiting class on this year's roster coupled with some big recruits who stuck around.

If they get hot, they could roll through the conference and NCAAs. I really would not want to play them because they have so much talent. Would it really shock anyone if they make the Final Four?

Kicking dirt on Calipari is a fun leisure sport. But he keeps the cupboard stocked. Call me when he quits getting top 10 recruits.

(I actually cheer for him on the recruiting trail because he seems to be getting a few kids Roy used to get)

FerryFor50
03-03-2014, 10:40 AM
Also, what are you talking about with the Cauley-Stein injury? He played 36 minutes against Robert Morris in UK's final game last year. So he definitely didn't tear his ACL in February. He played 18 minutes in the season opener this year, so I don't think he injured himself over the summer either.

Maybe he's thinking about Nerlens Noel...

Li_Duke
03-03-2014, 10:40 AM
No, I agree with your point. Just I went the route of, what if we had gotten Poythress?

I'll play the "what if" game. Do you think if we add a coach-K taught Poythress to a squad that lost to the eventual champions, we might have won it all? Kelly's injury would certainly have hurt us less.

flyingdutchdevil
03-03-2014, 10:45 AM
Calipari is two years out from going 38-2 and winning the title. He has a great recruiting class on this year's roster coupled with some big recruits who stuck around.

If they get hot, they could roll through the conference and NCAAs. I really would not want to play them because they have so much talent. Would it really shock anyone if they make the Final Four?

Kicking dirt on Calipari is a fun leisure sport. But he keeps the cupboard stocked. Call me when he quits getting top 10 recruits.

(I actually cheer for him on the recruiting trail because he seems to be getting a few kids Roy used to get)

Great points. But the Kentucky boosters and fan base isn't very forgiving. Remember that Ole Roy won the tourney in 2009 and in 2010 they were getting angry and upset. I imagine that the Kentucky boosters are even worse.

Next year, Calipari doesn't have amazing recruits (at least compared to the last three years). Towns is a stud and Lyes has some great size, but everything I've read about Ulis and Booker comes with a few question marks (Cal doesn't do great with undersized PGs). Furthermore, it depends on what happens this year. If there is a max exodus, then Kentucky will again struggle. If Cal somehow manages to retain a few players, Kentucky may be really good.

I think that next year is the make-or-break year for Cal's strategy. And I think it really depends on who stays and who goes.

FerryFor50
03-03-2014, 10:52 AM
I'll play the "what if" game. Do you think if we add a coach-K taught Poythress to a squad that lost to the eventual champions, we might have won it all? Kelly's injury would certainly have hurt us less.

Very good question. I think Poythress would have added toughness, rebounding and inside scoring that would have helped against L'ville. But I don't know that L'ville loses that game, regardless.

Henderson
03-03-2014, 10:56 AM
From what I've heard, Cal has always been a shady recruiter. But some of you are going off the deep end here. His coaching has always been pretty good, in my opinion. His UMass and Memphis teams always played solid to really good defense (and most of his UK teams, too), and he gives his players a lot of offensive freedom (not unlike Coach K in that regard). His former players (at least the ones he hasn't run out of town) all seem to be loyal to him. He promised them an NBA career and for the most part he has delivered.

As far as being a "UK player with a choice," from what I understand they're treated like royalty during their time at Kentucky. Much better treatment than all but the very top of the top will get out in the NBA. If you're not sure of your draft prospects, who wouldn't want to go back to that.

Cal doesn't always appear to play by the rules -- for that he's rightfully earned some disdain -- and he may or may not be in trouble right now, but this talk about him being a poor coach or not having his player's interest at heart, or suggesting players don't enjoy their time in Lexington, seems rather silly to me.

Well, these things swing wildly against the "real", don't they? When you're good, you're very very good, and when you're bad, you're horrid. So your overall point is well-taken.

But Cal was a "good" coach when he cheated at recruiting and had players for more than one or two years at UMass and Memphis. And the ones who made it in the NBA are of course loyal. Loyalty is a fickle thing though. When things turn out right for you as an individual, it's easy. And most players aren't going to blame the coach when things turn out poorly. That's where we come in.

And now Cal has sold his soul to the one-and-done philosophy. He's not coaching kids long enough to teach them, or at least not coaching them, or coaching them long enough, to improve them as players. He recruited kids at UK who were already destined for greatness, and he's even screwed that up in many instances (no need to recite the examples here). He got a natty out of it, and he's shepherded a lot of players (who were all going there anyway) to the NBA. So give him that. And maybe life in Lexington for a basketball player is filled with nubile young women and adoring fans (where is that not the case?). But I don't think players come back to UK to benefit from Cal's coaching expertise if they have a choice.

I hope Cauley-Stein and Poythress are high draft picks this year. But in my view they've been ill-served as sophomores at UK, particularly in the sense that, under Cal's tutelage, their games have not improved. Playing 8 minutes per game in the NBA means 656 minutes in a season, playing against the best in the world. Playing 20 minutes per game in college means about 600 minutes against lesser competition. They both would have been better off in the NBA, which would not have been the case in a better college program. Shoving 2 NBA-quality players down the bench to fulfill commitments to parents and handlers about freshman playing time (something K has steadfastly refused to do) was shabby.

TexHawk
03-03-2014, 11:15 AM
I'm more curious as to what happens if a lot of guys expected to go decide to stick around. Kind of throws a wrench in the Cal "one and done" factory, where the premise is promise of playing time from day 1.

Who rides the pine next year? The incoming guys or the former blue-chippers? How do the players handle it? Does Cal run off more players? What happens when prospective recruits finally start to figure out that Cal never really cared about them as much as he pretended to?

The guys who were expected to go will get nudged out the door if they don't declare. You really think the Harrison twins want to stick around and deal with competition for playing time? Or have their weaknesses exposed further? The 14-15 team *could* be really good if everyone checked their egos at the door and played unselfishly. I just don't see that happening though.

FerryFor50
03-03-2014, 11:20 AM
The guys who were expected to go will get nudged out the door if they don't declare. You really think the Harrison twins want to stick around and deal with competition for playing time? Or have their weaknesses exposed further? The 14-15 team *could* be really good if everyone checked their egos at the door and played unselfishly. I just don't see that happening though.

I think it all depends on the kid. You don't get an Anthony Davis *and* MKG in the same class every year - team first, defense oriented guys that are difference makers. Instead, you see a lot more of the Harrison twins - playmakers who need the ball in their hands to be effective.

Would the Harrison twins have started and played as much at other top teams in the country? Probably only one of them... it's been shown that just because they are twins, it doesn't mean they have identical talent.

It was a HUGE mistake to call out Randle, in my opinion. That guy busts his rear every night. You don't want to lose him when the Harrison twins have already tuned you out.

g-money
03-03-2014, 12:23 PM
Pat Forde skewers Cal pretty well. Seems like the one-and-done thing is beginning to unravel.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/you-made-your-bed-john-calipari--now-lie-in-it-233738456-ncaab.html

I think your OP captured the problem pretty succinctly. As much as I love to see Cal getting raked over the coals, to me the underlying problem is that it's tough to predict how HS kids - even highly recruited ones - will do at the next level. After all, the whole reason the NBA put in the OAD rule to begin with was because their scouts stink at it!

I would argue that while it's possible to gauge whether a kid has the talent and physical attributes to be a highly successful college player, it's somewhat harder to predict whether that kid will be coachable. While Cal got lucky with guys like MKG and Davis, the fact that he touts his program as a mere detour on the road to the NBA lends itself to bringing in kids who aren't mentally committed to making Kentucky great.

While Kentucky's repeated implosions could be viewed as a cautionary tale for Duke as we start to embrace more OAD-type players, Coach K has two things (among many!) going for him that Coach Cal does not: One, he's much better at gauging character; as imprecise a science as that may be, Coach K is adept and Cal is a train wreck. Two, he has massive street cred from coaching the best players on the planet in the Olympics; consequently, the kids he recruits are more likely to tune out the noise and listen to him in their quest to reach the promised land.

JasonEvans
03-03-2014, 01:07 PM
In addition to Alex Poythress, who others have already mentioned, guys like Kyle Wiltjer and Ryan Harrow might have an idea as to how to answer that question.

I think Harrow still has tread marks on his back from where Cal ran him over with the bus and then backed it up to give him another whallop.

If there was any justice in the world, Kentucky would somehow end up playing a NCAA tourney game against Harrow's Ga State ballclub that has been manhandling the Sun Belt Conference (15-1 record) and has won 19 of their past 20 games (though none against a likely tourney team).

-Jason "I wonder how Marcus Lee -- a top 20 recruit last season who gets less than 7 minutes per game this season -- feels about how Cal develops players" Evans

FerryFor50
03-03-2014, 01:10 PM
I think Harrow still has tread marks on his back from where Cal ran him over with the bus and then backed it up to give him another whallop.

If there was any justice in the world, Kentucky would somehow end up playing a NCAA tourney game against Harrow's Ga State ballclub that has been manhandling the Sun Belt Conference (15-1 record) and has won 19 of their past 20 games (though none against a likely tourney team).

-Jason "I wonder how Marcus Lee -- a top 20 recruit last season who gets less than 7 minutes per game this season -- feels about how Cal develops players" Evans

Harrow has dropped a few 30 point games at Georgia St. Good for him.

FerryFor50
03-03-2014, 01:12 PM
While Kentucky's repeated implosions could be viewed as a cautionary tale for Duke as we start to embrace more OAD-type players, Coach K has two things (among many!) going for him that Coach Cal does not: One, he's much better at gauging character; as imprecise a science as that may be, Coach K is adept and Cal is a train wreck. Two, he has massive street cred from coaching the best players on the planet in the Olympics; consequently, the kids he recruits are more likely to tune out the noise and listen to him in their quest to reach the promised land.

I'd add that K would not put up with the crap the Harrison twins and James Young have pulled at times this season. They'd have been riding so much pine they'd have to get the trainers to remove splinters every game...

tommy
03-03-2014, 03:03 PM
I think Harrow still has tread marks on his back from where Cal ran him over with the bus and then backed it up to give him another whallop.

If there was any justice in the world, Kentucky would somehow end up playing a NCAA tourney game against Harrow's Ga State ballclub that has been manhandling the Sun Belt Conference (15-1 record) and has won 19 of their past 20 games (though none against a likely tourney team).

-Jason "I wonder how Marcus Lee -- a top 20 recruit last season who gets less than 7 minutes per game this season -- feels about how Cal develops players" Evans

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I said at the time he committed to Kentucky that it was a mistake, and that Lee would never be a player there. (Frankly, I don't think he's that good.) He's gotten very little burn this year, and with Dakari Johnson possibly coming back, Derek Willis definitely coming back, plus Karl Towns and Trey Lyles coming in, Lee won't see much daylight next year either.

I expect him to be somewhere like Cal, Oregon, Washington, UCLA, or San Diego State in 2015-16.

Henderson
03-03-2014, 04:20 PM
Also, what are you talking about with the Cauley-Stein injury? He played 36 minutes against Robert Morris in UK's final game last year. So he definitely didn't tear his ACL in February. He played 18 minutes in the season opener this year, so I don't think he injured himself over the summer either.

Right you are. My bad. Noel.

Dukehky
03-03-2014, 05:42 PM
Cal is a good coach, not a great coach.

His one national championship came with contributing players who were not recruited by him, and 2 guys who had out of this world character and defensive abilities in the Brow and MKG. Anthony Davis is also a top 15 player in the NBA in his second year, and was incredible in college. Teague played well enough not to screw the rest of the team up.

His 1 and done way of doing things, which people thought was a template, is not realistic. MKG and AD were the 4th and 5th offensive producers on that championship team, they were the best at everything else, but they were dependent on really solid sophomores/juniors for the majority of their scoring.

Look at his Memphis team that went to the Finals, CDR was their best player, and he was a senior (i think, but he was definitely an upper classmen). Rose was really good, but that team ran through Chris Douglas Roberts.

Cal is overrated. He whines, nothing is his fault, and I think kids are starting to realize that if they aren't Rose or Davis, that they're not going to look good to scouts in Cal's system. The SEC is atrocious at basketball and he hasn't dominated it like anyone thought he would. He also just seems like a scum bag, who is going to to get what he deserves when he leaves to go coach the train-wreck that is the New York Knicks and their hilariously bad owner, James Dolan. Have fun Cal.

BD80
03-03-2014, 06:11 PM
... Why would a UK player with a choice choose to come back to UK?

To even out the treadmarks down his back

luburch
03-03-2014, 06:20 PM
Cal is a good coach, not a great coach.

His one national championship came with contributing players who were not recruited by him, and 2 guys who had out of this world character and defensive abilities in the Brow and MKG. Anthony Davis is also a top 15 player in the NBA in his second year, and was incredible in college. Teague played well enough not to screw the rest of the team up.

His 1 and done way of doing things, which people thought was a template, is not realistic. MKG and AD were the 4th and 5th offensive producers on that championship team, they were the best at everything else, but they were dependent on really solid sophomores/juniors for the majority of their scoring.

Look at his Memphis team that went to the Finals, CDR was their best player, and he was a senior (i think, but he was definitely an upper classmen). Rose was really good, but that team ran through Chris Douglas Roberts.

Cal is overrated. He whines, nothing is his fault, and I think kids are starting to realize that if they aren't Rose or Davis, that they're not going to look good to scouts in Cal's system. The SEC is atrocious at basketball and he hasn't dominated it like anyone thought he would. He also just seems like a scum bag, who is going to to get what he deserves when he leaves to go coach the train-wreck that is the New York Knicks and their hilariously bad owner, James Dolan. Have fun Cal.

I dislike Cal as much as the next guy, but I would say that Wall and Cousins impressed scouts while they were at Kentucky.

Dukehky
03-03-2014, 06:28 PM
I dislike Cal as much as the next guy, but I would say that Wall and Cousins impressed scouts while they were at Kentucky.

Boogie and John Wall had comparable talent levels to those two, so they were implicitly included in that assessment, but you're correct. I'm still very glad that they were looking forward to playing Duke while they were still in the Elite Eight in 2010, that was not a match-up I wanted to see.

COYS
03-04-2014, 10:13 AM
I still maintain that it is far too early to call Cal's time at UK anything but a success. Yes, last year was not good at all, but that team was full newcomers that were replacing a championship squad from the year before AND dealt with Noel's injury. Pushing Harrow and Wiltjer out the door was a mistake, in my opinion, but Cal probably would not have had the Harrison twins in the bag without Harrow out of the picture (I'm less clear why it was necessary to push Wiltjer out). However, he can recover from that mistake pretty easily if the bulk of this team returns for a sophomore (or, in the case of Poythress, junior) season. The 2010 team's success was bolstered by Cal convincing Patterson not to transfer or go pro. The 2012 team featured a sophomore Terrence Jones who returned after a solid but not quite lottery-worthy freshman season for a Final Four squad. Most schools would be completely happy with an Elite 8, a Final Four, and a Natty followed by a rebuilding year or two, especially if one of those rebuilding years included a catastrophic injury to one of the best players. UK's rebuilding year this season will still likely see them in the NCAA tournament, albeit with an uphill battle to make a deep run.

I think there is a good chance that the Harrison twins end up going pro regardless of what's best for them just because it seems from afar that they have not bought in to Cal's coaching at all. And Randle is a lock to leave as a probably top 5 or at least top 8 pick. However, losing the Harrison twins might be addition by subtraction, even if losing Randle would really hurt. If everyone else comes back, the new crop of super-frosh will be surrounded by veteran talent. There might be some sore nerves from the way this season has gone down, but winning cures a lot of chemistry issues.

I think Cal has handled this season and last season pretty poorly. Personally, I'm no fan of the guy. However, while Pat Forde makes some really good criticisms of how Cal conducts himself, we'd have to see a few more "disastrous" seasons such as the past two to conclude that he's lost his mojo as a coach.

TexHawk
03-04-2014, 10:34 AM
I still maintain that it is far too early to call Cal's time at UK anything but a success.

I think the bulk of your post is fair, but where do expectations come into play, if at all? Yes, most schools would take his last 4 years. But last year's team was preseason #3 (I think), and they tumbled all the way to the NIT. This year's team was preseason #1, with 40-0 talk, staring directly at a 7 seed today. I'm not so sure as many schools would line up for that.

Mike Corey
03-04-2014, 10:36 AM
With apologies to Walter White, Coach Calipari is not in trouble, he is the trouble.

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-14714-I-AM-THE-DANGER-gif-Walter-Whi-toNE.gif

oldnavy
03-04-2014, 10:38 AM
I still maintain that it is far too early to call Cal's time at UK anything but a success. Yes, last year was not good at all, but that team was full newcomers that were replacing a championship squad from the year before AND dealt with Noel's injury. Pushing Harrow and Wiltjer out the door was a mistake, in my opinion, but Cal probably would not have had the Harrison twins in the bag without Harrow out of the picture (I'm less clear why it was necessary to push Wiltjer out). However, he can recover from that mistake pretty easily if the bulk of this team returns for a sophomore (or, in the case of Poythress, junior) season. The 2010 team's success was bolstered by Cal convincing Patterson not to transfer or go pro. The 2012 team featured a sophomore Terrence Jones who returned after a solid but not quite lottery-worthy freshman season for a Final Four squad. Most schools would be completely happy with an Elite 8, a Final Four, and a Natty followed by a rebuilding year or two, especially if one of those rebuilding years included a catastrophic injury to one of the best players. UK's rebuilding year this season will still likely see them in the NCAA tournament, albeit with an uphill battle to make a deep run.

I think there is a good chance that the Harrison twins end up going pro regardless of what's best for them just because it seems from afar that they have not bought in to Cal's coaching at all. And Randle is a lock to leave as a probably top 5 or at least top 8 pick. However, losing the Harrison twins might be addition by subtraction, even if losing Randle would really hurt. If everyone else comes back, the new crop of super-frosh will be surrounded by veteran talent. There might be some sore nerves from the way this season has gone down, but winning cures a lot of chemistry issues.

I think Cal has handled this season and last season pretty poorly. Personally, I'm no fan of the guy. However, while Pat Forde makes some really good criticisms of how Cal conducts himself, we'd have to see a few more "disastrous" seasons such as the past two to conclude that he's lost his mojo as a coach.

I think Cal is being "measured" against Cal. The talk of 40-0 was just silly for a lot of reasons, one of which is when you fall way short of it, you look... well silly. If Cal were a tad bit more "humble" I doubt the critics would be as loud... but when you talk the talk and fail to walk the walk.... watch out!

COYS
03-04-2014, 10:47 AM
I think the bulk of your post is fair, but where do expectations come into play, if at all? Yes, most schools would take his last 4 years. But last year's team was preseason #3 (I think), and they tumbled all the way to the NIT. This year's team was preseason #1, with 40-0 talk, staring directly at a 7 seed today. I'm not so sure as many schools would line up for that.

You make a good point. I think Duke and Kansas are two of the few places where such a trajectory would not be coveted. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that most Duke fans would take 2002-2009, when Duke was very good, made the tourney every year, reached one Final Four, but never won a title, over Cal's tenure at UK, even though that run included a title. Similar, Kansas fans such as yourself would probably not trade the Jayhawk's success since the title in 2008 for Cal's up and then down tenure at UK.

However, we still haven't reached the end of this season. The Wildcats have the talent to rebound. And while last season was a disaster, that team lost almost everyone from a title team AND lost Nerlens Noel to a knee injury midseason. I think Coach K is a better coach than Cal, but it's still fair to wonder if Duke's 2007 team would have fallen out of the tournament entirely if Josh McRoberts or Jon Scheyer had been lost to a season ending injury in the middle of the year.

This season has been better than last season for UK even if it hasn't lived up to expectations. However, my primary point is not that the Wild Cats haven't disappointed or that Cal hasn't shown some serious personality flaws as a leader, but that it's too early to bury Kentucky for this season and waaay to early not to think that Cal is destined for a tailspin. It wasn't but a month ago that many Duke fans were writing the eulogy for UNC's season, and they've managed to turn things around. It's getting late, but Kentucky will be in a good position to salvage this year and create some momentum going into next year.

That would mean that Cal has had three great years at UK with a title, one down year that included an injury to a key player, and one good but not great year that fell short of expectations. All in all, that is not the profile of a coach that is in bad shape or a program that is about to go into a tailspin.

tommy
03-04-2014, 10:55 AM
You make a good point. I think Duke and Kansas are two of the few places where such a trajectory would not be coveted. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that most Duke fans would take 2002-2009, when Duke was very good, made the tourney every year, reached one Final Four, but never won a title, over Cal's tenure at UK, even though that run included a title. Similar, Kansas fans such as yourself would probably not trade the Jayhawk's success since the title in 2008 for Cal's up and then down tenure at UK.

However, we still haven't reached the end of this season. The Wildcats have the talent to rebound. And while last season was a disaster, that team lost almost everyone from a title team AND lost Nerlens Noel to a knee injury midseason. I think Coach K is a better coach than Cal, but it's still fair to wonder if Duke's 2007 team would have fallen out of the tournament entirely if Josh McRoberts or Jon Scheyer had been lost to a season ending injury in the middle of the year.

This season has been better than last season for UK even if it hasn't lived up to expectations. However, my primary point is not that the Wild Cats haven't disappointed or that Cal hasn't shown some serious personality flaws as a leader, but that it's too early to bury Kentucky for this season and waaay to early not to think that Cal is destined for a tailspin. It wasn't but a month ago that many Duke fans were writing the eulogy for UNC's season, and they've managed to turn things around. It's getting late, but Kentucky will be in a good position to salvage this year and create some momentum going into next year.

That would mean that Cal has had three great years at UK with a title, one down year that included an injury to a key player, and one good but not great year that fell short of expectations. All in all, that is not the profile of a coach that is in bad shape or a program that is about to go into a tailspin.

How can you create momentum going into next year when the entire roster -- or a huge percentage of the minutes, scoring, rebounding, etc. -- turns over every year? If they lose Randle, the Harrisons, and maybe Cauley-Stein and/or James Young (and who knows, maybe even Poythress if he's decided he's had enough) then they're starting over again. That's the intent - to start over each season. Along with all the other problems such a "system" creates, it's kinda hard to create momentum that way, isn't it?

roywhite
03-04-2014, 11:15 AM
How can you create momentum going into next year when the entire roster -- or a huge percentage of the minutes, scoring, rebounding, etc. -- turns over every year? If they lose Randle, the Harrisons, and maybe Cauley-Stein and/or James Young (and who knows, maybe even Poythress if he's decided he's had enough) then they're starting over again. That's the intent - to start over each season. Along with all the other problems such a "system" creates, it's kinda hard to create momentum that way, isn't it?

Yes; it's really Cal's model that is not working well, and presents a real challenge to implement successfully every year. It's beginning to seem like the 2012-13 and 2013-14 seasons are the norm; plenty of young talent, but lacking in offensive structure and consistency. Perhaps an Anthony Davis doesn't come along very often.

The real downfall to this model at Kentucky would be if elite prospects stop buying into it, or at least exercise more care in where they choose to spend their pre-NBA time. Perhaps they might realize the magnitude of starting from scratch every year, and prefer to choose a program that has a solid base of talent, and could use one or two elite prospects to get them into championship contention.

Kentucky and Cal seemed like a great marriage, but the passion may be waning. Lexington has seen ugly divorces before.

Kedsy
03-04-2014, 12:27 PM
I'd be willing to bet that most Duke fans would take 2002-2009, when Duke was very good, made the tourney every year, reached one Final Four, but never won a title, over Cal's tenure at UK, even though that run included a title.

I think I'd take that bet regarding most Duke fans. A lot of Duke fans seem to measure the success or failure of any particular year's edition by what happened in Duke's last game (although some of them magnanimously give a pass to teams that make the Final Four and lose). In addition, the time period you mention includes 2007, which I'd guess most Duke fans wouldn't consider a qualitative improvement over last year's UK team.

Obviously, "most" does not mean all. There are of course many Duke fans who feel otherwise (including me), but I'm pretty sure if you offered Duke fans five years of Sweet 16s and one Final Four on the one hand against an Elite Eight, a Final Four, a national champ, and three early NCAA losses/NIT flame-outs, most Duke fans would take the latter.

flyingdutchdevil
03-04-2014, 12:43 PM
I think I'd take that bet regarding most Duke fans. A lot of Duke fans seem to measure the success or failure of any particular year's edition by what happened in Duke's last game (although some of them magnanimously give a pass to teams that make the Final Four and lose). In addition, the time period you mention includes 2007, which I'd guess most Duke fans wouldn't consider a qualitative improvement over last year's UK team.

Obviously, "most" does not mean all. There are of course many Duke fans who feel otherwise (including me), but I'm pretty sure if you offered Duke fans five years of Sweet 16s and one Final Four on the one hand against an Elite Eight, a Final Four, a national champ, and three early NCAA losses/NIT flame-outs, most Duke fans would take the latter.

As silly as it sounds, most programs and coaches will be measured on NCAA Championships, followed by overall wins, followed by FF, followed by...I don't know (and I'd argue that overall wins and FF #s are debatable). But I agree with you: most Duke fans would taken Kentucky's last 5 years over Duke's 2002-2009 years. I'm not sure where I lie. On the one hand, with 5 titles, Coach K gets another title by 2010 but, on the other hand, he probably doesn't reach 907 until a year or two later and Jim Boeheim is very close to Coach K's win total.

20 years from now, titles and FFs will be remembered over consecutive tourney appearances.

JasonEvans
03-04-2014, 12:43 PM
Most schools would be completely happy with an Elite 8, a Final Four, and a Natty followed by a rebuilding year or two, especially if one of those rebuilding years included a catastrophic injury to one of the best players. UK's rebuilding year this season will still likely see them in the NCAA tournament, albeit with an uphill battle to make a deep run.

What is this "rebuilding" thing you speak of? As a Duke fan, I am not familiar with it. Kansas, Syracuse, Michigan State and a few other elite schools agree that this is a foreign concept to them. And, as others have mentioned, how do you rebuild when your model calls for massive roster turnover every single year. And, of course, Kentucky does not think they should ever have a rebuilding year.

Now, I agree with the notion that Cal is far from being "in trouble" at Kentucky. While I am sure many folks are disappointed in how the past 2 seasons have gone (I agree that this season is not lost yet, not by a longshot) I doubt there is much of a cry to get rid of Cal. But, I sorta wonder if he is getting sick of babysitting one-and-done kids who are not invested in the long-term growth of his program and who are difficult to coach because their eye is constantly on mock draft projections.

It may be that the lack of success of his recent teams breaks the one-and-done mold for him. It would appear that several of the kids expected to turn pro right away this season will instead stick around. Young, Randle, and Cauley-Stein would appear to be the only certain first-rounders likely to head into the 2014 draft. Poythress will probably to be back for his junior season as the Harrisons, Johnson, and Lee turn into sophs. It is not at all outlandish to suggest that Cal will have a nice mix of young studs (Lyles and Towns) to go with some experienced players next season. Plus, next year's class includes several guys who simply aren't close to being one-and-done talent. Ulis and Booker may form the backbone (and backcourt) of future Kentucky teams down the road.

Anyway, I hate projecting good things for Cal and Kentucky so I'll be rooting for Poythress and the Harrisons to turn pro and leave Kentucky again young and thin next season. They can't lose too much for me taste!

-Jason "I do sorta wish someone would step up and challenge Florida a bit in the SEC -- there are just so few programs in the SEC that I admire... blech!" Evans

COYS
03-04-2014, 01:47 PM
What is this "rebuilding" thing you speak of? As a Duke fan, I am not familiar with it. Kansas, Syracuse, Michigan State and a few other elite schools agree that this is a foreign concept to them. And, as others have mentioned, how do you rebuild when your model calls for massive roster turnover every single year. And, of course, Kentucky does not think they should ever have a rebuilding year.

Now, I agree with the notion that Cal is far from being "in trouble" at Kentucky. While I am sure many folks are disappointed in how the past 2 seasons have gone (I agree that this season is not lost yet, not by a longshot) I doubt there is much of a cry to get rid of Cal. But, I sorta wonder if he is getting sick of babysitting one-and-done kids who are not invested in the long-term growth of his program and who are difficult to coach because their eye is constantly on mock draft projections.

It may be that the lack of success of his recent teams breaks the one-and-done mold for him. It would appear that several of the kids expected to turn pro right away this season will instead stick around. Young, Randle, and Cauley-Stein would appear to be the only certain first-rounders likely to head into the 2014 draft. Poythress will probably to be back for his junior season as the Harrisons, Johnson, and Lee turn into sophs. It is not at all outlandish to suggest that Cal will have a nice mix of young studs (Lyles and Towns) to go with some experienced players next season. Plus, next year's class includes several guys who simply aren't close to being one-and-done talent. Ulis and Booker may form the backbone (and backcourt) of future Kentucky teams down the road.

Anyway, I hate projecting good things for Cal and Kentucky so I'll be rooting for Poythress and the Harrisons to turn pro and leave Kentucky again young and thin next season. They can't lose too much for me taste!

-Jason "I do sorta wish someone would step up and challenge Florida a bit in the SEC -- there are just so few programs in the SEC that I admire... blech!" Evans

Duke fans are spoiled when it comes to "rebuilding, that's for sure! Not to prolong this debate too much more, but I think we agree far more than we disagree. I specifically said most schools would be happy with UK's most recent seasons because I know that some schools like Duke, Syracuse, Mich St etcetera would not necessarily trade one rebuilding year for a title (of course, they might).

Also, I predicated Cal's future success on the possibility that UK might retain a fair share of players who don't go to the nba. If that happens, then we can correctly call this year a rebuilding year for UK.

Also, in terms of the word "momentum," I think that's huge for Calipari in getting the next batch of recruits. If he struggles two or three seasons in a row, the luster of his one and done philosophy will wear off.

Anyway, i, like you, Jason, don't like predicting success for UK. However, I do think that he'll probably end up with a solid team next year that could potentially have quite a veteran presence.

johnb
03-04-2014, 02:03 PM
Anyway, i, like you, Jason, don't like predicting success for UK. However, I do think that he'll probably end up with a solid team next year that could potentially have quite a veteran presence.

What's annoying is that they'll likely get something like a 7 seed but then STILL stand a decent chance to get to the final four. Watching a few of their games, they look like a train wreck, but the individual parts do appear talented and fully capable of winning 4 games in a row.

Des Esseintes
03-04-2014, 04:52 PM
What's annoying is that they'll likely get something like a 7 seed but then STILL stand a decent chance to get to the final four. Watching a few of their games, they look like a train wreck, but the individual parts do appear talented and fully capable of winning 4 games in a row.

I don't know. At this point in the season, Parcells is right. You are what your record says you are. I'd hate for Duke to get them for a second round game, for all the obvious reasons, but they are not a very good basketball team. The Final Four is generally reserved for very good basketball teams, exceptions notwithstanding.

tommy
03-04-2014, 10:55 PM
It may be that the lack of success of his recent teams breaks the one-and-done mold for him. It would appear that several of the kids expected to turn pro right away this season will instead stick around. Young, Randle, and Cauley-Stein would appear to be the only certain first-rounders likely to head into the 2014 draft. Poythress will probably to be back for his junior season as the Harrisons, Johnson, and Lee turn into sophs. It is not at all outlandish to suggest that Cal will have a nice mix of young studs (Lyles and Towns) to go with some experienced players next season. Plus, next year's class includes several guys who simply aren't close to being one-and-done talent. Ulis and Booker may form the backbone (and backcourt) of future Kentucky teams down the road.

I too was actually considering the idea that perhaps Calipari is realizing now that they key to that championship team was the presence of a couple of more experienced guys in support roles to the star frosh. And that he is adjusting his recruiting strategy accordingly, choosing to mix in an obvious multiyear player like Marcus Lee, who had no shot to play this year behind Cauley-Stein, Randle, and Johnson, meaning Lee will be back for probably several more years, assuming he doesn't transfer. And when I looked at his 2014 haul, well Tyler Ullis is 5'8" tall, meaning he's not going pro early. Devin Booker is a nice shooter, but ranked around #30 or so, which is not where most of your one-and-dones are coming from. He doesn't have the athleticism at that position. So maybe Cal is intentionally stocking his roster with more multi-year guys, huh?

But then I realized: Wait a minute. Dakari Johnson was the #9 recruit in the RSCI. He was tied for that spot with James Young. (the Harrisons were 5 and 6, hard as it is to believe now). Though Johnson hasn't played like it, he can easily be a one-and-done. Daniel Orton, anyone? Young can easily do it too. But, moreover, Tyler Ullis was not Cal's first choice, or his second, at point guard in the 2014 class. His 1 and 1A were Emmanuel Mudiay, who is certainly a one-and-done talent, and Tyus Jones. Devin Booker wasn't his first choice on the wing. His first choice was the superstud wing Stanley Johnson out of California, who is certain as one can be when still in high school that he's going to be one and done.

So if Cal had his way, getting the recruits he wanted -- meaning Mudiay and Johnson, along with Karl Towns and Trey Lyles, his team would be full of one and done's next year, same as he's been doing. I don't think there's been a change in philosophy or recruiting focus at all. He's all in on the every year turnover thing, if he can get the recruits in there to execute the plan. Unfortunately for him, when the kids aren't as good as advertised and don't go pro as he expected them to, he ends up like Lucy and Ethel at the candy factory conveyor belt.

porkpa
03-05-2014, 04:16 AM
If I had to pick a half dozen teams to make it to the Elite Eight, even with all their underachieving this year, UK would still be among them.

YmoBeThere
03-05-2014, 04:45 AM
Well, if we have to take a 7 year period, I'm taking '87-'94.

As for 2002-2009 versus Kentucky's recent run, I'll take ours anytime. That's likely because I know what happened in 2010.

jv001
03-05-2014, 06:30 AM
Well, if we have to take a 7 year period, I'm taking '87-'94.

As for 2002-2009 versus Kentucky's recent run, I'll take ours anytime. That's likely because I know what happened in 2010.

While brushing up this morning on overnight posts, I was thinking about the '87-'94 Duke years. They were some of my favorite years rooting for Duke. Many FFs and two National Championships.
2002-2009 would probably be next followed by the 1960-1968 years. GoDuke!

JasonEvans
03-05-2014, 07:56 AM
While brushing up this morning on overnight posts, I was thinking about the '87-'94 Duke years. They were some of my favorite years rooting for Duke. Many FFs and two National Championships.
2002-2009 would probably be next followed by the 1960-1968 years. GoDuke!

I hate to spin this thread off in a different direction, but I'd like my "favorite Duke 7 year span" to include 1999. We put a massive beatdown on darn near every team we played. It was soooo much fun to watch! So, I'm taking 1998-2005 as my favorite span of Duke domination. Some hugely successful regular seasons, several Final Fours (even if they ended badly) and the national title in 2001.

-Jason "now, back to the discussion at hand..." Evans

JasonEvans
03-05-2014, 08:01 AM
I too was actually considering the idea that perhaps Calipari is realizing now that they key to that championship team was the presence of a couple of more experienced guys in support roles to the star frosh. And that he is adjusting his recruiting strategy accordingly, choosing to mix in an obvious multiyear player like Marcus Lee, who had no shot to play this year behind Cauley-Stein, Randle, and Johnson, meaning Lee will be back for probably several more years, assuming he doesn't transfer. And when I looked at his 2014 haul, well Tyler Ullis is 5'8" tall, meaning he's not going pro early. Devin Booker is a nice shooter, but ranked around #30 or so, which is not where most of your one-and-dones are coming from. He doesn't have the athleticism at that position. So maybe Cal is intentionally stocking his roster with more multi-year guys, huh?

But then I realized: Wait a minute. Dakari Johnson was the #9 recruit in the RSCI. He was tied for that spot with James Young. (the Harrisons were 5 and 6, hard as it is to believe now). Though Johnson hasn't played like it, he can easily be a one-and-done. Daniel Orton, anyone? Young can easily do it too. But, moreover, Tyler Ullis was not Cal's first choice, or his second, at point guard in the 2014 class. His 1 and 1A were Emmanuel Mudiay, who is certainly a one-and-done talent, and Tyus Jones. Devin Booker wasn't his first choice on the wing. His first choice was the superstud wing Stanley Johnson out of California, who is certain as one can be when still in high school that he's going to be one and done.

So if Cal had his way, getting the recruits he wanted -- meaning Mudiay and Johnson, along with Karl Towns and Trey Lyles, his team would be full of one and done's next year, same as he's been doing. I don't think there's been a change in philosophy or recruiting focus at all. He's all in on the every year turnover thing, if he can get the recruits in there to execute the plan. Unfortunately for him, when the kids aren't as good as advertised and don't go pro as he expected them to, he ends up like Lucy and Ethel at the candy factory conveyor belt.

tommy,

I did not mean to imply that Cal had changed his philosophy. I think it is more an accident of how his recruiting has gone this year. I am quite aware that Ulis and others were back up plans to kids who were likely one-and-done stars. I would also add that I am thrilled to see Cal missing on so many of his targets this year. I hope kids are starting to learn that Cal has no magic formula for success at Kentucky and maybe it makes sense to spend your college year at a school where there are some experienced players who can impart some wisdom to you.

-Jason "to the poster who said he would still pick Kentucky to make the Elite 8... not me! It could happen, but I can think of at least 10-12 teams who are far more likely (IMO) to make a deep NCAA run" Evans

flyingdutchdevil
03-05-2014, 08:15 AM
tommy,

I did not mean to imply that Cal had changed his philosophy. I think it is more an accident of how his recruiting has gone this year. I am quite aware that Ulis and others were back up plans to kids who were likely one-and-done stars. I would also add that I am thrilled to see Cal missing on so many of his targets this year. I hope kids are starting to learn that Cal has no magic formula for success at Kentucky and maybe it makes sense to spend your college year at a school where there are some experienced players who can impart some wisdom to you.

-Jason "to the poster who said he would still pick Kentucky to make the Elite 8... not me! It could happen, but I can think of at least 10-12 teams who are far more likely (IMO) to make a deep NCAA run" Evans

Kentucky probably has the widest range in the tournament. They wouldn't shock me to exit the tournament early, but they also wouldn't shock me to make it to the Final Four. On paper, this is still a top 3 (maybe top) talented team. Their issues lie with coaching, cohesiveness, and 3pt shooting. But they still have more first round picks than any other team.

Every decent-to-good team can clank out of the first round or go to the Final Four. But, as fans, we're usually surprised one way or the other (ie Kansas: shocked if they got knocked out in the first round. St Louis: Shocked if they made it to the FF).

CDu
03-05-2014, 08:53 AM
Kentucky probably has the widest range in the tournament. They wouldn't shock me to exit the tournament early, but they also wouldn't shock me to make it to the Final Four. On paper, this is still a top 3 (maybe top) talented team. Their issues lie with coaching, cohesiveness, and 3pt shooting. But they still have more first round picks than any other team.

Every decent-to-good team can clank out of the first round or go to the Final Four. But, as fans, we're usually surprised one way or the other (ie Kansas: shocked if they got knocked out in the first round. St Louis: Shocked if they made it to the FF).

Agreed. All it takes is some good fortune with matchups and the team gelling at the right time. The talent is certainly there to make a deep run. They haven't shown it yet (due to the lack of experience and leadership), but who knows when the light switch could come on?

I will say this, though: Alex Poythress and Kyle Wiltjer are the poster-children for the dangers of jumping on the Calipari bandwagon. Poythress was a solid but not consistent producer as a starter on last year's Kentucky team. He was a 6'8" man-child with 3pt range and ridiculous athleticism. This year? He has seen his minutes drop by 7 mpg, and his role on offense has nosedived as the team has mvoed on to the new toys Randle and Young. Wiltjer was a McDonald's All-American, Ryan Kelly clone coming out of high school. He played sparingly as a freshman but was a very good contributor as a sophomore. But Calipari recruited over him each year, and the writing was on the wall.

I've made the comment in the past that a #30-50 recruit might be better off (if playing time is the goal) at a school other than Duke. But with Calipari, if you aren't a top-10 recruit, you might be best served looking elsewhere. Because as long as he keeps bringing in top-10 recruits with the promise of playing time, it's going to be tough for a slightly-lesser recruit to make his name for himself.

COYS
03-05-2014, 09:39 AM
I've made the comment in the past that a #30-50 recruit might be better off (if playing time is the goal) at a school other than Duke. But with Calipari, if you aren't a top-10 recruit, you might be best served looking elsewhere. Because as long as he keeps bringing in top-10 recruits with the promise of playing time, it's going to be tough for a slightly-lesser recruit to make his name for himself.

CDu,

I bolded the portion above because this is, I think, Calipari's primary flaw. It is obvious that Calipari promises his top ten recruits PT because, quite honestly, there are more than a few times when other coaches would have put one or both of the Harrison twins on the bench for a teaching moment. Obviously, Coach K is a poster child for doing the exact opposite. Top 3 recruit Austin Rivers sat on the bench and watched while the unranked (not in anyone's top 100) sophomore Tyler Thornton hit an improbable three to beat Kansas in Maui back in 2011. Jabari Parker has watched the end of a few games from the bench this season. Top 15 recruit and sophomore Rasheed Suliamon registered a DNP-CD while Tyler Thornton played over 20 minutes. Anyway, the list goes on and on. The fact that Coach K doesn't promise playing time and doesn't predicate his recruiting pitch on playing time means that he is free to do what's best for the team when determining playing time. Calipari has tied his own hands. If he doesn't play his top ten recruits, how can he point to their playing time as evidence when he guarantees playing time for next year's crop of OAD's?

Of course, promising playing time is probably how he gets so many top 10 recruits in the first place. As much as Duke's recruiting class has been heralded for next year, it still only features two top ten recruits, and out of those two, probably only Okafor is projected as an almost certain one and done.

To me, Calipari's method is very high risk/high reward. And, it really is a new method. D-Rose might have been a one and done at Memphis, but Chris Douglas-Roberts was an over achieving recruit and much of the rest of the team was full of hard-nosed role players. As has been mentioned over and over, the championship team featured some key upperclass role players and two team-first frosh. It is certainly possible that Calipari has become TOO successful recruiting top ten players, which is pushing the vets who can help them get over the hump out the door.

Wander
03-05-2014, 09:51 AM
I don't know. At this point in the season, Parcells is right. You are what your record says you are. I'd hate for Duke to get them for a second round game, for all the obvious reasons, but they are not a very good basketball team.

Totally agreed. Is there any actual evidence to suggest that these "talented, disappointing regular season" teams have a better chance to make the Final Four than other teams of similar seeding? Last year, NC State probably fit the description best, and they didn't get past their 8/9 game. The year before, everyone was hyping a Kentucky/UConn matchup in the second round, and UConn lost to Iowa State in the 8/9 game. I don't see any reason to believe Kentucky has a better chance to make the Final Four than, for example, Texas at this point. If Kentucky wins the SEC tournament or something I'll change my opinion, but right now it's looking like another example of "popular pick darkhorse FF team, upset in the first round to Stanford or Baylor" kind of situation to me.

Matches
03-05-2014, 09:55 AM
Totally agreed. Is there any actual evidence to suggest that these "talented, disappointing regular season" teams have a better chance to make the Final Four than other teams of similar seeding? Last year, NC State probably fit the description best, and they didn't get past their 8/9 game. The year before, everyone was hyping a Kentucky/UConn matchup in the second round, and UConn lost to Iowa State in the 8/9 game. I don't see any reason to believe Kentucky has a better chance to make the Final Four than, for example, Texas at this point. If Kentucky wins the SEC tournament or something I'll change my opinion, but right now it's looking like another example of "popular pick darkhorse FF team, upset in the first round to Stanford or Baylor" kind of situation to me.

Occasionally a talented-but-troubled team gets it together right at the perfect time - UConn in 2011 comes to mind. Kentucky is still on some folks' radar because they're inarguably a talented bunch. Agreed, though, that they've shown no signs of putting it together to date.

Momentum's such a fickle thing, though....

Wander
03-05-2014, 10:08 AM
Occasionally a talented-but-troubled team gets it together right at the perfect time - UConn in 2011 comes to mind. Kentucky is still on some folks' radar because they're inarguably a talented bunch. Agreed, though, that they've shown no signs of putting it together to date.

Momentum's such a fickle thing, though....

But there are also examples of teams of little talent (2006 George Mason), moderate talent (2010 Butler), and good talent (2000 UNC) catching fire at the right time. I agree a team like Kentucky could make the Final Four - but why is a "talented-but-troubled" 6 seed any MORE likely to make the Final Four than a "solid college team" 6 seed? I mean, I can see why it might make sense in theory, but we have decades of NCAA tournaments as samples, and I'm not sure I see that pattern.

Des Esseintes
03-05-2014, 10:28 AM
Totally agreed. Is there any actual evidence to suggest that these "talented, disappointing regular season" teams have a better chance to make the Final Four than other teams of similar seeding? Last year, NC State probably fit the description best, and they didn't get past their 8/9 game. The year before, everyone was hyping a Kentucky/UConn matchup in the second round, and UConn lost to Iowa State in the 8/9 game. I don't see any reason to believe Kentucky has a better chance to make the Final Four than, for example, Texas at this point. If Kentucky wins the SEC tournament or something I'll change my opinion, but right now it's looking like another example of "popular pick darkhorse FF team, upset in the first round to Stanford or Baylor" kind of situation to me.

Another classic example. That Georgia Tech team with Jarrett Jack and BJ Elder the year *after* they made the finals against UConn. Preseason #3, then they just kind of meandered through the season, going 8-8 in conference. They gave occasional reasons to think they were better than they were, such as upsetting eventual national champion Carolina in the ACC tournament, but the next game Duke beat them for the third time that year. Going into the dance, I remember people talking about them as perhaps the scariest 5-seed in history given their talent and NCAA history. They lost by 22 in the second round to 4-seed Louisville.

These kinds of teams almost never put it together for the tournament. If they were going to put it together, it in all likelihood would be together by now.

vick
03-05-2014, 10:43 AM
Totally agreed. Is there any actual evidence to suggest that these "talented, disappointing regular season" teams have a better chance to make the Final Four than other teams of similar seeding? Last year, NC State probably fit the description best, and they didn't get past their 8/9 game. The year before, everyone was hyping a Kentucky/UConn matchup in the second round, and UConn lost to Iowa State in the 8/9 game. I don't see any reason to believe Kentucky has a better chance to make the Final Four than, for example, Texas at this point. If Kentucky wins the SEC tournament or something I'll change my opinion, but right now it's looking like another example of "popular pick darkhorse FF team, upset in the first round to Stanford or Baylor" kind of situation to me.

There's some evidence that the AP poll at the end of the year isn't a much greater predictor of tournament success than the preseason poll, but that could be as much as anything voter overreactions to recent events and ignoring schedule (Syracuse is probably a good example here--they weren't ever likely the best team, and they're probably not as bad as a lot of people think now), as well as the fact that a single-elimination tourney has a lot of randomness anyway. I basically agree with you. For that matter, isn't it at least possible that Kentucky's freshmen--the Harrisons in particular--just aren't as talented as people thought?

CDu
03-05-2014, 10:44 AM
Another classic example. That Georgia Tech team with Jarrett Jack and BJ Elder the year *after* they made the finals against UConn. Preseason #3, then they just kind of meandered through the season, going 8-8 in conference. They gave occasional reasons to think they were better than they were, such as upsetting eventual national champion Carolina in the ACC tournament, but the next game Duke beat them for the third time that year. Going into the dance, I remember people talking about them as perhaps the scariest 5-seed in history given their talent and NCAA history. They lost by 22 in the second round to 4-seed Louisville.

These kinds of teams almost never put it together for the tournament. If they were going to put it together, it in all likelihood would be together by now.

UCLA from the Steve Lavin years was the only example I can really think of off-hand of a team that consistently underachieved during the regular season but still found a way to keep making the Sweet-16. But even they didn't make DEEP runs.

UNC did it back in 2000, but usually their deep tourney runs coincide with really strong regular seasons as well.

Kedsy
03-05-2014, 11:01 AM
UCLA from the Steve Lavin years was the only example I can really think of off-hand of a team that consistently underachieved during the regular season but still found a way to keep making the Sweet-16. But even they didn't make DEEP runs.

UNC did it back in 2000, but usually their deep tourney runs coincide with really strong regular seasons as well.

Izzo's Michigan State teams do this from time to time as well, like in 2010: Pre-season #2, dropped down to a #5 seed, made the Final Four.

Also, just last season Michigan was pre-season #5 and Syracuse was pre-season #9. Both dropped down to #4 seeds and both made the Final Four.

And of course, the mother of them all: Kansas, 1988. Pre-season #7, dropped down to a #6 seed, won national championship.

Des Esseintes
03-05-2014, 11:13 AM
UCLA from the Steve Lavin years was the only example I can really think of off-hand of a team that consistently underachieved during the regular season but still found a way to keep making the Sweet-16. But even they didn't make DEEP runs.

UNC did it back in 2000, but usually their deep tourney runs coincide with really strong regular seasons as well.

UCLA is a good call. They are definitely the best example of "switch-flipping" at the college level.

That Carolina team is an interesting one. What I remember about them is that they had played *so* badly during the regular season that their inclusion in the tourney was considered to be a gift/marketing decision on the part of the committee. No one expected anything of them. But they beat Stanford in the second round, and then the bracket broke nicely their way. Pre-Buzz Tennessee in the Sweet 6, a 7-seed Tulsa team in the Elite Eight. I had largely forgotten they were preseason #6.

So maybe if Kentucky plays badly enough the rest of the way that everyone gives them up for dead instead of all this sleeping giant talk, maybe then they can have their tourney run after all.

JasonEvans
03-05-2014, 02:40 PM
As much as Duke's recruiting class has been heralded for next year, it still only features two top ten recruits, and out of those two, probably only Okafor is projected as an almost certain one and done.

Just to be clear, many rankings have Winslow in their top 10 or at least close to it. Scout has him at #10, Rivals has him at #9. He is #15 on ESPN. 247 has him at #13. RSCI has not updated in many months, but their last ranking had him at #12.

A Kentucky kid in that range would likely be considered one-and-done. Tyus Jones, if he had chosen Kentucky's one-and-done factory would certainly be considered a likely short-timer in college.

-Jason "not sure what my point was here... so, ummm, I'll sign off now" Evans

superdave
03-31-2014, 01:06 PM
Calipari has his McDonald's All-American squad in the Final Four. Anyone still think he's in trouble?

I suspect this validates his approach with his fan base a little more.

A better question - Anyone on this board actually cheering for UK?

Mike Corey
03-31-2014, 02:12 PM
Never have I been so disappointed to see such good basketball.

BluDvlsN1
03-31-2014, 02:28 PM
A better question - Anyone on this board actually cheering for UK?

Nope, Just can't do it, Even if it is 100% within the rules, it's is contrary to the Student/athlete
Value system. It just reminds me of Tarkakian revisited, with a bit of shine. if these players
Don't make it at the next level, where is the value to them. Barkley actually got this right.

Recognizing how impressive it is though, how this group came together in the last month or so,
but cheering for never.

Couldn't agree with Mike Corey more!

Devil in the Blue Dress
03-31-2014, 03:05 PM
Never have I been so disappointed to see such good basketball.
You make an excellent point, sir!

Clay Feet POF
03-31-2014, 03:13 PM
calipari has his mcdonald's all-american squad in the final four. Anyone still think he's in trouble?

I suspect this validates his approach with his fan base a little more.

A better question - anyone on this board actually cheering for uk?

no...no...no

Atlanta Duke
03-31-2014, 03:57 PM
Nice takedown of Coach Cal by Charles Pierce in Grantland today

Truth be told, I’ve been watching John Calipari operate since he was an assistant coach at Pittsburgh, and I still wouldn’t trust him as far as I could throw a thoroughbred. But he has refined his rap extremely well. He is the Jerry Tarkanian for the new age; for the Tark, it was always about “the kids,” too, even when they wound up in hot tubs with hoodlums.

http://grantland.com/features/kentucky-basketball-john-calipari-one-done/

Des Esseintes
03-31-2014, 04:31 PM
I don't know. At this point in the season, Parcells is right. You are what your record says you are. I'd hate for Duke to get them for a second round game, for all the obvious reasons, but they are not a very good basketball team. The Final Four is generally reserved for very good basketball teams, exceptions notwithstanding.

I was, uh, very wrong. Except for the second round part. Gregg Marshall is probably still extremely angry that.

slower
04-01-2014, 07:23 PM
Calipari has his McDonald's All-American squad in the Final Four. Anyone still think he's in trouble?

I suspect this validates his approach with his fan base a little more.

A better question - Anyone on this board actually cheering for UK?

Actually, I AM cheering for Kentucky (in this game). There's just something about Bo Ryan's demeanor that I find extraordinarily repulsive. I can't even stand to look at the guy's face. And Wisconsin basketball (despite whatever their "style" looks like this year) is just ugly, ugly basketball.

And I suspect that recent results have validated Calipari's approach with many more than just his fan base. I think recruits may just be paying a tiny bit of attention.

DukeandMdFan
04-01-2014, 09:24 PM
For some reason, Calipari is a great coach of the teams filled with one-and-done players. I don't think many of the top coaches would have been able to achieve as much success with so little time to work with the players.

Researchc
04-01-2014, 09:53 PM
After living in TN for 25 years, I have many friends that are KY fans. I told them when Calipari was hired that it would suck pulling for a different team every year. When he said, "I'd like to say it is the biggest day in the history of Kentucky's program," after 5 players were taken in the first round of the NBA draft in 2010, I threw up in my mouth a little. I hate KY as much as any true Duke fan, but have always had respect for the program. I still think he will slip up and get the school in hot water, then run to the first NBA team that will have him. With all of that being said, he has actually done a great coaching job this last month. They have really played as a team during the tournament. I still hope they get beat like a drum by Wisconsin because I hate all of the other teams in the Final Four.

gep
04-02-2014, 11:12 PM
Actually, I AM cheering for Kentucky (in this game). There's just something about Bo Ryan's demeanor that I find extraordinarily repulsive. I can't even stand to look at the guy's face. And Wisconsin basketball (despite whatever their "style" looks like this year) is just ugly, ugly basketball.

Well... you now have some tangible reason for your feelings on Wisconsin. WOJO!!!! and MARQUETTE!!! Can you say "rivalry"?!?!?!?!

Mrduke21
04-03-2014, 09:11 AM
After living in TN for 25 years, I have many friends that are KY fans. I told them when Calipari was hired that it would suck pulling for a different team every year. When he said, "I'd like to say it is the biggest day in the history of Kentucky's program," after 5 players were taken in the first round of the NBA draft in 2010, I threw up in my mouth a little. I hate KY as much as any true Duke fan, but have always had respect for the program. I still think he will slip up and get the school in hot water, then run to the first NBA team that will have him. With all of that being said, he has actually done a great coaching job this last month. They have really played as a team during the tournament. I still hope they get beat like a drum by Wisconsin because I hate all of the other teams in the Final Four.


I'm sorry, but am I the only one that thinks calipari's "success" as a coach has little to with him and more to do with his players? Outside of recruiting, I would argue that anyone could have similar success. This is the same coach that lost to Robert Morris in the NIT.

Bluealum
04-03-2014, 09:34 AM
I'm sorry, but am I the only one that thinks calipari's "success" as a coach has little to with him and more to do with his players? Outside of recruiting, I would argue that anyone could have similar success. This is the same coach that lost to Robert Morris in the NIT.

I suspect your not 'the only one'. However it is becoming increasingly difficult to view him simply as a great recruiter. His lack of regard for education, or the 'intent' of the rules which the NCAA imposes is easy to dislike, but this is quite distinct from his ability to take a group of talented players and get them to play as a unit, giant ego's notwithstanding.

It would be a monumental task to argue that there were 8 more talented teams in the country this year than Duke. It would also be very difficult to argue that Duke was one of the 8 best teams. I suspect that is one of the reasons Coach K addressed the public in a long and unsolicited press conference. He is taking the opportunity to explain how challenging it is sometimes to pull a group of talented individuals together to play as a cohesive unit. We had more veteran leadership and tournament experience on our team than Kentucky, and a whole lot of talent. This year it didn't work for us which, thankfully, is a rare occurrence.

Coach K has had many physically less 'talented' teams play much better basketball down the stretch and he gets credit for that. He also, very graciously, accepts blame when he cannot make the whole as good or better than the sum of the parts. Experience and leadership help to tilt that toward the sum being greater than the parts.

Cal had no such luxury this year as he had virtually no tournament experience on his team and no really experienced/talented leader (who played 30+ minutes as Coack K suggested was helpful). He had to provide all of the leadership and did so fairly successfully. He deserves credit for that despite his many other short comings. As a fan of the student-athlete model I confess a real rooting distaste for his success, but this year has removed the doubt in my mind that he can coach talent well. The championship run a couple of years ago was not just a fluke of the right kind of players gelling together as I had hoped.

I just hope the 2 and 20 rule gets here sooner rather than later, as I don't believe he will fare as well under those rules. Keeping some of these kids eligible may become a far greater challenge for him and having recruits see good players ahead of them at Kentucky will hopefully spread some of the talent around. In the current model, I fear this years run will likely only increase his recruiting success.

Mrduke21
04-03-2014, 10:05 AM
I suspect your not 'the only one'. However it is becoming increasingly difficult to view him simply as a great recruiter. His lack of regard for education, or the 'intent' of the rules which the NCAA imposes is easy to dislike, but this is quite distinct from his ability to take a group of talented players and get them to play as a unit, giant ego's notwithstanding.

It would be a monumental task to argue that there were 8 more talented teams in the country this year than Duke. It would also be very difficult to argue that Duke was one of the 8 best teams. I suspect that is one of the reasons Coach K addressed the public in a long and unsolicited press conference. He is taking the opportunity to explain how challenging it is sometimes to pull a group of talented individuals together to play as a cohesive unit. We had more veteran leadership and tournament experience on our team than Kentucky, and a whole lot of talent. This year it didn't work for us which, thankfully, is a rare occurrence.

Coach K has had many physically less 'talented' teams play much better basketball down the stretch and he gets credit for that. He also, very graciously, accepts blame when he cannot make the whole as good or better than the sum of the parts. Experience and leadership help to tilt that toward the sum being greater than the parts.

Cal had no such luxury this year as he had virtually no tournament experience on his team and no really experienced/talented leader (who played 30+ minutes as Coack K suggested was helpful). He had to provide all of the leadership and did so fairly successfully. He deserves credit for that despite his many other short comings. As a fan of the student-athlete model I confess a real rooting distaste for his success, but this year has removed the doubt in my mind that he can coach talent well. The championship run a couple of years ago was not just a fluke of the right kind of players gelling together as I had hoped.

I just hope the 2 and 20 rule gets here sooner rather than later, as I don't believe he will fare as well under those rules. Keeping some of these kids eligible may become a far greater challenge for him and having recruits see good players ahead of them at Kentucky will hopefully spread some of the talent around. In the current model, I fear this years run will likely only increase his recruiting success.

I agree with your assessment. I just have a hard time giving him credit for coaching (x's and o's). his inconsistancy (going from national championship to NIT loser with a cast of lottery picks) tells me it's more on their development and not his coaching basketball....Which You could give Cal credit on player development I guess. But if he was great he wouldn't have had to cheat to win/get great players (UMASS and Memphis) and some questionable acts at Kentucky.

Ichabod Drain
04-03-2014, 10:13 AM
I agree with your assessment. I just have a hard time giving him credit for coaching (x's and o's). his inconsistancy (going from national championship to NIT loser with a cast of lottery picks) tells me it's more on their development and not his coaching basketball....Which You could give Cal credit on player development I guess. But if he was great he wouldn't have had to cheat to win/get great players (UMASS and Memphis) and some questionable acts at Kentucky.

Actually there wasn't a single lottery player playing in the NIT loss last year. Noel is the only lottery player on that team and he went down over a month before.

Also what are his questionable acts at Kentucky?

Mrduke21
04-03-2014, 10:35 AM
Actually there wasn't a single lottery player playing in the NIT loss last year. Noel is the only lottery player on that team and he went down over a month before.

Also what are his questionable acts at Kentucky?

So maybe lottery pick wasn't the best descriptor but they did have 4 players projected in the top 20 picks at the end of the season (Noel, poythress, cauley-stein, and Goodwin).

As far as the questionable acts... there was an entire post dedicated to that subject on this board. Mainly surrounding a trend with calipari wherever he goes, but as far as Kentucky the fact that players stopped going to school, Bledsoe being academically enelgible, recruitment of kantur, etc. Most programs never have these issues. Calipari seems to have this type of problems everywhere.

SoCalDukeFan
04-04-2014, 03:34 PM
Not sure if you have to be a subscriber to read this:

Wall Street Journal Article (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303847804579477600580932452?mg=ren o64-wsj)

Cal against one and done, wants two and done, does not like baseball rule.

SoCal

theAlaskanBear
04-04-2014, 03:50 PM
If I was a reporter at the Coach Cal presser today, I hope I would have a chance to give him this question:

"Given the fact that 50% of your previous Final Fours have been vacated, what are the chances that this Final Four is vacated as well?"

kexman
04-06-2014, 05:53 AM
Coach K talked a lot about the lack of leadership on this years team and how a leader really needs to be one of your better players (plays 30+ minutes a game). By ability Parker should have been our leader and often it will be our stud "one and done" type player. I wonder if that is easier if the team is all freshman. It may be difficult for a star freshman to come in and be a "leader" when there are upperclassman on the team. Will the upperclassman accept the leadership...will the freshman feel like he can boss seniors around. Seems like it would be a strange dynamic. On the other hand if everyone is a freshman it might work better. Totally opposite logic than I would normally have, but I need something to explain Kentucky

I really dislike Kentucky and specifically Cal, but I will give him credit that he gets a bunch of NBA 1st rounders who might be more concerned about draft stock to buy into playing defense and becoming a team.

Rich
04-06-2014, 08:14 AM
Coach K talked a lot about the lack of leadership on this years team and how a leader really needs to be one of your better players (plays 30+ minutes a game). By ability Parker should have been our leader and often it will be our stud "one and done" type player. I wonder if that is easier if the team is all freshman. It may be difficult for a star freshman to come in and be a "leader" when there are upperclassman on the team. Will the upperclassman accept the leadership...will the freshman feel like he can boss seniors around. Seems like it would be a strange dynamic. On the other hand if everyone is a freshman it might work better. Totally opposite logic than I would normally have, but I need something to explain Kentucky

I really dislike Kentucky and specifically Cal, but I will give him credit that he gets a bunch of NBA 1st rounders who might be more concerned about draft stock to buy into playing defense and becoming a team.

I agree with this and would add, for whatever reason, K's defensive system seems to require several years for many of our players to get acclimated.

duke09hms
04-06-2014, 08:24 AM
I agree with this and would add, for whatever reason, K's defensive system seems to require several years for many of our players to get acclimated.

That's fine if it ends up being more effective, but our most effective and best defense of the last couple years has been when we shy away from the overplay.
He's been flexible in the past, I hope he's flexible with adjusting our defensive schemes.

This year at least, Calipari has done a much better job than K of getting his brand new teams to mesh. Especially on the defensive side. Their freshmen are playing D like jr/srs, and our jrs/srs were playing D like freshmen.

BlueTeuf
04-06-2014, 09:34 AM
It may be difficult for a star freshman to come in and be a "leader" when there are upperclassman on the team. Will the upperclassman accept the leadership...will the freshman feel like he can boss seniors around. Seems like it would be a strange dynamic. On the other hand if everyone is a freshman it might work better. Totally opposite logic than I would normally have, but I need something to explain Kentucky



From my experience, I find the dynamic logical. "Buddy leadership" (my term) can work within a small cadre of members of similar status. UK and Duke may differ in how similar in status the players view themselves. I believe Parker would have a more difficult time leading Duke than a Harrison or Randle, etc would face "leading" UK. Not along term solution, buddy leadership has its limitations - the method frays as roles and responsibilities evolve.

This is Coach Krzyzewski's problem and responsibility to solve. Leaders aren't just born, they're also developed - and he owes it to the team to put effective subordinate leadership in place - on the court. It appears his plan this year (multi-year sequence) was underwhelming and didn't produce the results he hoped.

I'm interested to see his approach going forward - and although hopeful for progress, don't think it's a slam dunk the results will be better. Some of the elements Coach focused on in his press conference were concerning. However, a significant positive - and a big part of my rationale for optimism - is Coach has clearly sensed there is a problem.

Saratoga2
04-06-2014, 10:06 AM
I'm interested to see his approach going forward - and although hopeful for progress, don't think it's a slam dunk the results will be better. Some of the elements Coach focused on in his press conference were concerning. However, a significant positive - and a big part of my rationale for optimism - is Coach has clearly sensed there is a problem.

This problem he sensed has been evident in the last few years but seemed worse due to the level of talent on this years team. Part of it is recruiting, where we had some outstanding talent but others who weren't deemed solid DIV 1 players. If they were and just weren't developed, then shame on us. Our recruiting also left us with only one true big man and he wasn't used all that much. The second part may be something to do with the changing landscape of college ball with one and done and then the change in perception of what constitutes a foul, particularly charging. Also, coach K has taken on additional responsibilities and has now lost his two chief assistants. Has he got the time or energy to devote to move a team forward?

His recruiting is excellent this year, but he seemed unable to coach this teams defense to be even respectable. Maybe he can hire another assistant who will help him coach up the defense. Kevin Ollie has UCONN playing great defense. Too bad Shane Battier couldn't do the same for Duke. He is a smart guy and maybe the best defensive player that ever came through the Duke system. Is there some more realistic hire that coach K would listen to?

Atlanta Duke
04-06-2014, 10:16 AM
Not sure if you have to be a subscriber to read this:

Wall Street Journal Article (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303847804579477600580932452?mg=ren o64-wsj)

Cal against one and done, wants two and done, does not like baseball rule.

SoCal

Thanks for the link.

Cal maintains with two and done, players will be one year from graduation after taking summer school courses before their first season of eligibility and between their first and second seasons of eligibility. But the baseball rule of a player staying for three years if he does not go pro out of high school is no good because that would keep players in school for three years who want to be in the NBA "without improving their situation in any way" (except presumably allowing them to get that degree Cal says they will be within one year of getting under his preferred two and done rule). So it's all about what is best for the kids in order to maximize their ability to get a degree while going pro at the right time.

Looking for the elusive bright side of a UK win tomorrow night in "North Texas," Cal winning with another group of one and done players will make it harder than ever for the NCAA to argue these guys are "student athletes" who should be required to waive any reimbursement beyond the one year scholarship for the use of their likenesses in order to maintain the integrity of college sports.

Giving credit where credit is due, Cal has done a great job of coaching this team up - I particularly like his use of time outs very early in a half if he sees a problem.

awich1
04-06-2014, 11:48 AM
Actually, I AM cheering for Kentucky (in this game). There's just something about Bo Ryan's demeanor that I find extraordinarily repulsive. I can't even stand to look at the guy's face. And Wisconsin basketball (despite whatever their "style" looks like this year) is just ugly, ugly basketball.

And I suspect that recent results have validated Calipari's approach with many more than just his fan base. I think recruits may just be paying a tiny bit of attention.

I find the comments related to Bo Ryan misguided and even somewhat repulsive. One could make similar comments about Coach K's demeanor on the sideline. What counts is that Bo Ryan runs a quality program where the kids actually go to school and graduate. If you've watched Wisconsin over the years his players improve dramatically over their 4 years at Wisconsin- witness Kaminsky this year. He coaches to his talent level which this year is better than in the past. So, surprise, his team is running a more up tempo offense than in the past and is averaging in the 70's. And by the way Wisconsin has been to the NCAA tournament 13 straight years I believe. All in all, like coach K and Duke, Ryan and Wisconsin stand for what's good about college sports and the quibbling with his demeanor on the sideline is ludicrous.

One think about Calipari- I despise everything that he stands for but the guy can coach.

slower
04-06-2014, 08:00 PM
I find the comments related to Bo Ryan misguided and even somewhat repulsive. One could make similar comments about Coach K's demeanor on the sideline. What counts is that Bo Ryan runs a quality program where the kids actually go to school and graduate. If you've watched Wisconsin over the years his players improve dramatically over their 4 years at Wisconsin- witness Kaminsky this year. He coaches to his talent level which this year is better than in the past. So, surprise, his team is running a more up tempo offense than in the past and is averaging in the 70's. And by the way Wisconsin has been to the NCAA tournament 13 straight years I believe. All in all, like coach K and Duke, Ryan and Wisconsin stand for what's good about college sports and the quibbling with his demeanor on the sideline is ludicrous.

It's called an opinion, dude. Get over it. Seriously - lighten up.

oldnavy
04-07-2014, 06:24 AM
It's called an opinion, dude. Get over it. Seriously - lighten up.

Just curious, how do you feel about Jamie Dixon?

I don't share your opinion on Bo Ryan, especially after watching this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TajSyEm-Qg

Jamie Dixon on the other hand.... ehhh... stay off the court dude, and yes your team can and does foul. Every call isn't worth contesting...

luburch
04-07-2014, 07:34 PM
Not sure if this has been posted yet, but this is what Rex Chapman tweeted earlier:

Was messin' 'round on Sat nite re: Cal. But word is - win or lose 2nite - it's a #DoneDeal ...Cal 2 La-La-Land 2 coach Mamba's Lakers. #NoBS

Interesting to say the least.

Atlanta Duke
04-07-2014, 07:52 PM
Not sure if this has been posted yet, but this is what Rex Chapman tweeted earlier:

Was messin' 'round on Sat nite re: Cal. But word is - win or lose 2nite - it's a #DoneDeal ...Cal 2 La-La-Land 2 coach Mamba's Lakers. #NoBS

Interesting to say the least.

Please do not bait me into rooting for UK to help that to occur:)

NashvilleDevil
04-07-2014, 08:05 PM
Please do not bait me into rooting for UK to help that to occur:)

Win or lose it's a done deal so says Rex. You think Kupchak trolls UK fan by sending the papers for Calipari to sign via DHL, Emery or whatever courier was used to send Chris Mills's dad money?

FerryFor50
04-07-2014, 09:04 PM
If I were recruiting against Cal, I would use the success of Dakari Johnson and Marcus Lee after Cauley-Stein got hurt as negatives. Those kids have shown they can play at this level but were buried on the bench behind a guy who didn't show he was that much better as per game results of late...

timmy c
04-07-2014, 09:50 PM
If I were recruiting against Cal, I would use the success of Dakari Johnson and Marcus Lee after Cauley-Stein got hurt as negatives. Those kids have shown they can play at this level but were buried on the bench behind a guy who didn't show he was that much better as per game results of late...

Wait, wait, wait. You were the dude that said the following about Dakari:

Dakari plays hard, but isn't particularly good...
Then you doubled down and said this:

I don't see him ever being good enough in college to ever warrant being a first round pick later in his career.
Seems to me that you thought Cal's use, or lack of minutes, for Dakari was appropriate. Now your arguing the opposite. Which is it?

You can re-read your comments here: http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?32958-MBB-LSU-87-Kentucky-82/page2

FerryFor50
04-07-2014, 09:59 PM
Wait, wait, wait. You were the dude that said the following about Dakari:

Then you doubled down and said this:

Seems to me that you thought Cal's use, or lack of minutes, for Dakari was appropriate. Now your arguing the opposite. Which is it?

You can re-read your comments here: http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?32958-MBB-LSU-87-Kentucky-82/page2

I still don't think he's very good. But he's been effective at the college level just based on sheer size.

I don't see how what I said in this thread negates what I said in the other thread.

Nice that you remembered me, though...