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Olympic Fan
02-28-2014, 02:21 AM
I was surprised to see the reference on the DBR front page (in the Whistleblower story) to UNC "being way out front on integration compared not only to the rest of the ACC but to the state in general".

Really? Let's check the time line ...

In the fall of 1964, Maryland enrolls Pete Johnson and Billy Jones -- the first two African-American players in ACC history.
Both play freshman basketball in the 1964-65 season

In the fall of 1965, Duke enrolls CB Claiborne.
He plays freshman basketball in 1965-66; Jones becomes the ACC's first varsity player that season, while Johnson sits out for academic reasons

In the fall of 1966, Wake Forest enrolls Norwood Todmann, UNC enrolls Charlie Scott
Both play freshman basketball in 1966-67; Jones plays his second varsity season at Maryland; Claiborne at Duke and Johnson at Maryland play their first varsity seasons

Todmann and Scott make their varsity debut in the 1967-68 season -- two years after Jones and a year after Claiborne and Johnson. They are tied as the fourth/fifth African-American players in ACC basketball history.

In state, UNC was even further behind -- not only behind Duke, but also behind Western Carolina (the first "white" school in the state to play a black player), Catawba and Guilford. UNC was even with Davidson and Wake Forest. They did integrate basketball one year ahead of N.C. State, but N.C. State was the first school in the ACC to sign an African-American to an athletic scholarship (a tennis player).

How is that "being way out in front" with integration?

Dean was involved in civil rights activities through the Binkley Baptist Church in the early 1960s. He writes in his autobiography that a few hours after he was named head coach in August of 1961, he got a call from the pastor of his church reminding him that he was now in position to integrate UNC and ACC basketball ... almost five years later, Dean signed his first black player (after two other ACC schools had beat him to it). Wow, he really got on that one.

Yet, I still hear UNC fans brag about how Dean "integrated" the ACC. Granted, he was on the right side of the civil rights debate -- but let's not turn him into Martin Luther King.

And I can't see how UNC was out in front of anything -- Maryland integrated ACC basketball and redneck NC State signed the first black scholarship athlete in the ACC.

UrinalCake
02-28-2014, 09:10 AM
I will give Smith credit for being active in the anti-segregation movement. The link below claims that he recruited the ACC's first black player in 1966, which contradicts your timeline. But perhaps the notion of Smith being the groundbreaker on integration is as flawed as the notion that the Four Corners was some remarkable invention that we should applaud.

http://biography.yourdictionary.com/dean-smith

And from what we know of the AFAM scandal, their attempts to hide mass academic fraud behind the shield of racial sensitivities (knowing that few would be willing to criticize a program in which predominantly black student-athletes study black history), combined with their failure to educate athletes, again who are predominantly black, has basically caused racial equality to take an enormous step backwards.

What also kills me is how many fans at the national level still describe Duke as a "white" school. Duke has one of the most diverse student bodies in the country, even those who attended 15 years ago would be shocked at how much it has changed, and of course the basketball team itself is as diverse as any. Yet as recently as the title game against Butler I constantly heard Duke described as "a bunch of white kids who shoot threes." (Never mind the fact that Butler is far more "white" in terms of the school's demographics, and for that matter, shot more threes.)

cspan37421
02-28-2014, 10:54 AM
Duke's undergrad population is far more diverse than UNC on just about any measurement. Fact, not opinion - just look in the college guides under demographics.

Olympic Fan
02-28-2014, 12:39 PM
I will give Smith credit for being active in the anti-segregation movement. The link below claims that he recruited the ACC's first black player in 1966, which contradicts your timeline. But perhaps the notion of Smith being the groundbreaker on integration is as flawed as the notion that the Four Corners was some remarkable invention that we should applaud.

http://biography.yourdictionary.com/dean-smith


And we know that anything on the internet is true ...

Actually, the site you link merely confirms what I wrote -- that many UNC fans buy the myth that Smith integrated ACC basketball.

Just to counter that one incorrect article you link, try these:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/117908-black-history-moment-in-acc-basketball

or in this this long Q&A with Samuel Walker, the author of ACC Basketball (ironically published by UNC Press)

http://uncpress.unc.edu:8080/browse/author_interview?title_id=208

Or, you can check Billy Jones Wiki entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Jones_(basketball)

If you don't trust the internet (and from your first link, you should see why), try to get a copy of Barry Jacobs' book, Crossing the Line, which is all about the integration of basketball in the ACC and SEC.

BYW -- the adoring link that you posted does do Dean one disservice ... it talks about his one active civil rights demonstration, when he accompanied his pastor and a black divinity student to the Pines Restaurant (where UNC basketball teams ate their pregame meals) to break that restaurant's color line. The article says it happened in 1964 -- three years after Smith became head coach. It actually happened in the spring on 1961, when Smith was still an assistant to Frank McGuire. To my mind, that makes it much more courageous.

On the other hand, that's the one instance I've ever heard or read of when Dean actively supported integration. Maybe there are others?

I have always though that Dean Smith was an icon of integrity ... although the revelations about UNC's AFAM scandal have made me wonder -- why did the stars of his 1993 NCAA title team suddenly all switch their majors (well three starters switched and a fourth made it his minor) to AFAM as soon as Dr. Julius Nyang'oro (now under indictment for setting up phony classes) took over the department?

cwiley
02-28-2014, 01:02 PM
In defense of Dean, recruiting Charlie Scott to UNC was a much bigger deal than the UMD or Duke recruits, a state school firmly below the Mason-Dixon line.

I'm a Davidson undergrad, and Charlie Scott was recruited by Lefty Driesell at Davidson. Scott visited campus, and when he went to lunch at the Soda Shop on Main Street (yes, it sounds like a scene from Leave it to Beaver), Scott was denied service. The story goes that this was the decisive event in Scott attending UNC over Davidson. Davidson ended up with an African-American player, Mike Malloy, in the same period. There's an SI cover with Malloy and Scott as two of the three players on the front cover. Who knows, had Scott and Malloy enrolled at DC, might have been a NC for the Cats.

throatybeard
02-28-2014, 01:09 PM
And I can't see how UNC was out in front of anything -- Maryland integrated ACC basketball and redneck NC State signed the first black scholarship athlete in the ACC.

Why was that necessary?

UrinalCake
02-28-2014, 01:16 PM
Olympic Fan - sorry, the tone of my post wasn't conveyed very well. I wasn't trying to argue the validity of your claim, as it all happened well before my time. My intent was to provide an example of how the misconceptions regarding Smith and UNC are common.

OldPhiKap
02-28-2014, 01:16 PM
UNC was not the first, and Dean gets a lot of credit for inventing things that others really came up with. But to give the man his due, Dean certainly was one of several pioneers in helping to integrate southern universities. He deserves credit in that regard, especially since he was not an established coach at the time. Dean was hung in effigy in 1965, and his first few years as head coach were on the heels of the Lou Brown point shaving scandal. Dean's first conference championship team was not until 1967 (IIRC).

I hated the man with every cell in my body while I was at Duke. But he did the right thing here, at some personal and professional risk. That takes some courage.

hurleyfor3
02-28-2014, 01:51 PM
Why was that necessary?

Especially considering the OP is passing judgement on the issue of overcoming prejudice.

Olympic Fan
02-28-2014, 02:10 PM
Why was that necessary?

I'm sorry ... I'm just tired of the way UNC (and some Duke fans) have looked down on their nose at State (I HATE the "If you can't go to college go to State" chant). The word was meant ironically, to suggest that despite the image of the "Cow College" as somehow not as sophisticated as UNC (or Duke), that they were out in front when it comes to integration ... not UNC and not Duke.

I should have put it in quotes.

And cwiley, just two points -- Maryland was also a state school that is also below the Mason-Dixon Line and (2) I agree that it was a big deal when UNC stole Scott from Davidson ... he was clearly the first black superstar in the ACC.

But does Dean deserve MORE or LESS credit for that?

Keep in mind that by his own admission, he had been trying to recruit a black athlete since the summer of 1961. He waits until he finds a superstar talent. Bud Milliken at Maryland didn't wait -- he brought in two mid-level prospects to break the ACC color line. Dean brought in plenty of mid-level white prospects in that era, but he couldn't find one black prospect at that level?

Again, I don't mean top knock the guy on this issue, just to dispute the claim that he was a leader in the area of integration ... he was not.

cwiley
02-28-2014, 02:37 PM
You're right that Maryland is below the M-D line--I should have used a less precise designation. Despite the fact that it was a slave state, Maryland's union soldiers far outnumbered its confederate soldiers and no one I know thinks of it as a southern state. I am not a believer that racism doesn't exist in the north or anything close to that, but I do not doubt that Dean experienced more push-back in 1966 than did the coach at Maryland. Just because I wanted his team to lose every game does not mean I can't give him his props. I would be proud to call Dean Smith a friend.

oldnavy
02-28-2014, 04:23 PM
I'm sorry ... I'm just tired of the way UNC (and some Duke fans) have looked down on their nose at State (I HATE the "If you can't go to college go to State" chant). The word was meant ironically, to suggest that despite the image of the "Cow College" as somehow not as sophisticated as UNC (or Duke), that they were out in front when it comes to integration ... not UNC and not Duke.

I should have put it in quotes.

And cwiley, just two points -- Maryland was also a state school that is also below the Mason-Dixon Line and (2) I agree that it was a big deal when UNC stole Scott from Davidson ... he was clearly the first black superstar in the ACC.

But does Dean deserve MORE or LESS credit for that?

Keep in mind that by his own admission, he had been trying to recruit a black athlete since the summer of 1961. He waits until he finds a superstar talent. Bud Milliken at Maryland didn't wait -- he brought in two mid-level prospects to break the ACC color line. Dean brought in plenty of mid-level white prospects in that era, but he couldn't find one black prospect at that level?

Again, I don't mean top knock the guy on this issue, just to dispute the claim that he was a leader in the area of integration ... he was not.

I can't blame him for that... a superstar black athlete that helped win a lot of games had to be an easier sell at the time in this region. A midlevel talented black athlete may not have been received as well. I don't know if that was Dean's motive, but it probably served the movement better in the long run.

alteran
02-28-2014, 05:08 PM
I'm sorry ... I'm just tired of the way UNC (and some Duke fans) have looked down on their nose at State (I HATE the "If you can't go to college go to State" chant). The word was meant ironically, to suggest that despite the image of the "Cow College" as somehow not as sophisticated as UNC (or Duke), that they were out in front when it comes to integration ... not UNC and not Duke.

That's totally how I read it, OF-- an ironic shot at tarheel nation, who look down at Wuffies as red necks and at Dukies as trust-fund Yankees. If they can't even meet the standards of something they look down on...

That being said, I also see where the reaction is coming from.

SmartDevil
02-28-2014, 05:34 PM
Some of my black professional colleagues refer to UNC as a "slave school." One of the reasons they cite is that the evolving campus was to a great extent built and maintained by slave labor prior to the 1860s.

And one of the other reasons they call UNC a slave school is that they feel UNC has continued to exploit minorities in various ways, one of the principal ones being taking advantage of black athletes' skills without providing them the education promised to them.

Given the 19th Century history--and the 21st Century history that has come to light recently--I would think some potential recruits would think twice about wanting to be part of UNC.

rasputin
02-28-2014, 06:16 PM
You're right that Maryland is below the M-D line--I should have used a less precise designation. Despite the fact that it was a slave state, Maryland's union soldiers far outnumbered its confederate soldiers and no one I know thinks of it as a southern state. I am not a believer that racism doesn't exist in the north or anything close to that, but I do not doubt that Dean experienced more push-back in 1966 than did the coach at Maryland. Just because I wanted his team to lose every game does not mean I can't give him his props. I would be proud to call Dean Smith a friend.

And, of course, southern Maryland (where the University Of is) was a hotbed for secessionists, including John Wilkes Booth and his band.

cspan37421
02-28-2014, 06:24 PM
I can't blame him for that... a superstar black athlete that helped win a lot of games had to be an easier sell at the time in this region. A midlevel talented black athlete may not have been received as well. I don't know if that was Dean's motive, but it probably served the movement better in the long run.

I agree with where you're going with this. Jackie Robinson was not a mid-level athlete. Perhaps he saw how well that strategy worked and adopted it as his own. Perhaps he wanted to win the "war" with a decisive first step, rather than a series of skirmishes that could go either way.

Troublemaker
02-28-2014, 06:36 PM
I have always though that Dean Smith was an icon of integrity ... although the revelations about UNC's AFAM scandal have made me wonder -- why did the stars of his 1993 NCAA title team suddenly all switch their majors (well three starters switched and a fourth made it his minor) to AFAM as soon as Dr. Julius Nyang'oro (now under indictment for setting up phony classes) took over the department?

"Mike's got two, Dean's got one, Mike's got two, Dean's got one,...."

In my wildest of fantasies of how this UNC academic scandal plays out, not only does the NCAA end up stripping Carolina of at least two NCAA titles, but a thorough investigation into this mess reveals that the impetus for UNC's loss of ethics was Duke's back-to-back titles in '91 and '92.

Indoor66
02-28-2014, 08:34 PM
You're right that Maryland is below the M-D line--I should have used a less precise designation. Despite the fact that it was a slave state, Maryland's union soldiers far outnumbered its confederate soldiers and no one I know thinks of it as a southern state. I am not a believer that racism doesn't exist in the north or anything close to that, but I do not doubt that Dean experienced more push-back in 1966 than did the coach at Maryland. Just because I wanted his team to lose every game does not mean I can't give him his props. I would be proud to call Dean Smith a friend.

I question your point on racism in MD. Check out Prince George's County, MD (http://www.watson.org/~lisa/blackhistory/school-integration/pgcounty/index.html). MD had its own racism issues.

cwiley
02-28-2014, 08:46 PM
I question your point on racism in MD. Check out Prince George's County, MD (http://www.watson.org/~lisa/blackhistory/school-integration/pgcounty/index.html). MD had its own racism issues.
smi
I didn't claim that there was less racism in Maryland--I simply said that I doubt that the Maryland coach would face the same sort of overt pressure. I don't believe the south has a corner on racism.

BD80
02-28-2014, 10:00 PM
Say what you want about unc and integration, but I maintain carolina MUST be colorblind; there is no other explanation for "carolina" blue.

fidel
03-01-2014, 09:14 AM
Some of my black professional colleagues refer to UNC as a "slave school." One of the reasons they cite is that the evolving campus was to a great extent built and maintained by slave labor prior to the 1860s.

And one of the other reasons they call UNC a slave school is that they feel UNC has continued to exploit minorities in various ways, one of the principal ones being taking advantage of black athletes' skills without providing them the education promised to them.

Given the 19th Century history--and the 21st Century history that has come to light recently--I would think some potential recruits would think twice about wanting to be part of UNC.

The true failure to these kids is far earlier and by people far closer to them. UNC takes advantage of athletes, I see no reason to assume it's racially motivated.

Furniture
03-01-2014, 09:31 AM
I'm sorry ... I'm just tired of the way UNC (and some Duke fans) have looked down on their nose at State (I HATE the "If you can't go to college go to State" chant). The word was meant ironically, to suggest that despite the image of the "Cow College" as somehow not as sophisticated as UNC (or Duke), that they were out in front when it comes to integration ... not UNC and


I often see this type of thing too. In fact I have hired several NCState graduate Engineers and I can tell you that they are top notch. The Engineering School there may also be ranked higher than Dukes Pratt. So State produces a lot of engineers. That's good. Without engineers this country can't create and manufacture goods. If we don't do that as a Nation were are screwed.
Going to State IS going to College!

left_hook_lacey
03-01-2014, 10:27 AM
The true failure to these kids is far earlier and by people far closer to them. UNC takes advantage of athletes, I see no reason to assume it's racially motivated.

I agree. The majority of programs take advantage of all athletes in today's game, regardless of color.

Just as a lot of athletes take advantage of the colleges they attend. It's become a disgusting marriage with few exceptions.

Point is, it's up to the player to make the most of his/her scholarship.

grit74
03-01-2014, 10:58 AM
So, it seems that the fundamental reason that Smith's advocacy is more deserving than others, is that he had to confront the racism of UNC fans and the UNC community including Chapel Hill. That racist backwater required a long careful campaign to find the right player to lead the charge, better yet one already vetted by Lefty Driesell.

When UNC fans praise Smith, they are also commenting on their own heritage.

(Just in case: yes, your sarcasm detector should be on, so no need for complex history-of-the-South analyses.)

cwiley
03-01-2014, 11:07 AM
So, it seems that the fundamental reason that Smith's advocacy is less deserving than others, is that you don't like their basketball team.

(Just in case: yes, your sarcasm detector should be on, so no need for complex history of Maryland athletics.)

oldnavy
03-01-2014, 01:32 PM
I agree. The majority of programs take advantage of all athletes in today's game, regardless of color.

Just as a lot of athletes take advantage of the colleges they attend. It's become a disgusting marriage with few exceptions.

Point is, it's up to the player to make the most of his/her scholarship.

I tend to agree with you.

Here's a bit of sarcasm:

I have a hard time finding the "victim" in all this as I try to figure out the FAFSA forms and scholarship applications for my college aged son...

I am thankful that he wasn't "victimized" by a DI school by being given a full ride athletic scholarship...

I guess we were just lucky to escape that horrible fate, and be allowed the peace of incurring a boatload of debt and the honor of filing mountains of paperwork....

I hate to imagine how terrible it would have been for him to have to endure the trials and tribulations of a DI scholarship athlete...

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

OldPhiKap
03-01-2014, 02:01 PM
I tend to agree with you.

Here's a bit of sarcasm:

I have a hard time finding the "victim" in all this as I try to figure out the FAFSA forms and scholarship applications for my college aged son...

I am thankful that he wasn't "victimized" by a DI school by being given a full ride athletic scholarship...

I guess we were just lucky to escape that horrible fate, and be allowed the peace of incurring a boatload of debt and the honor of filing mountains of paperwork....

I hate to imagine how terrible it would have been for him to have to endure the trials and tribulations of a DI scholarship athlete...

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Well, Rashad McCants DID compare his time at Carolina with prison. . . .

Furniture
03-01-2014, 03:54 PM
Duke's undergrad population is far more diverse than UNC on just about any measurement. Fact, not opinion - just look in the college guides under demographics.

Please tell us your view in diveristy? In my experience it means different things to different people. The company I work for actually want a more diverse company by hiring more females especially in management. The county schools where I live look at free and reduce lunch numbers( poverty).
If you look at recent numbers Duke vs. UNC they have about the same number of African American (10%) and UNC has a slightly higher number of Latinos. Now when you have to take 80% of your intake from one State I think it's a pretty good effortand not as bad as you seem to imply.

devil84
03-01-2014, 08:29 PM
Please tell us your view in diveristy? In my experience it means different things to different people. The company I work for actually want a more diverse company by hiring more females especially in management. The county schools where I live look at free and reduce lunch numbers( poverty).
If you look at recent numbers Duke vs. UNC they have about the same number of African American (10%) and UNC has a slightly higher number of Latinos. Now when you have to take 80% of your intake from one State I think it's a pretty good effortand not as bad as you seem to imply.

I think diversity with regard to college student bodies is generally regarded as racial diversity. Many are close to 50/50 male/female, and the only demographics that will be published on socio-economic status will likely be a percent of the student body on financial aid -- which doesn't mean too much since family income of over $130K can still result in financial aid.

One way to look at diversity is to determine what percent is Caucasian. The lower the Caucasian number, the more diverse the student body. Hispanic and African-American students could remain relatively constant, but Native American, Pacific Islanders, Asian, and other groups can vary.

If you look at recent numbers on Duke's and UNC's diversity web pages, you'll find that UNC reports 72% Caucasian while Duke reports 49% Caucasian. That's a large difference.

With regard to UNC-CH pulling from largely in-state students, it's worth noting that in the last census, North Carolina reports 65% of residents are Caucasian alone (without Hispanic or Latino), and 22% are Black or African-American. Looking at the rest of the UNC system that is not considered HBC or Native American (meaning that I looked at NCSU, UNC Asheville, ASU, UNC Charlotte, UNC Greensboro, East Carolina, UNC Wilmington, Western Carolina), Chapel Hill is neither the highest percentage of Caucasians (80%) nor the lowest (60%). UNC-CH is middle of the pack.

Furniture
03-01-2014, 09:53 PM
In my own example my management team consists of two Americans, one Englishman (me), a Brazilian, a Frenchman, a New Zealander and an Indian. Pretty amazing and very cool! I think we are diverse but I get no credit from the Company I work for because we are all male.

Differencing through skin color is a way of equating diversity for some but let's face it for colleges it's all about under represented minorities. For the most part that's Latinos and African Americans.

Once again I think UNC doesn't do too bad vs. Duke. Let's face it Duke has the opportunity to pick the best of the Best from across the country. A much easier task in my opinion.

cspan37421
03-02-2014, 11:47 AM
Please tell us your view in diveristy?

I was referring to demographic data you find in college guides. My info on duke is more recent (2013/class of 2017 info) than on UNC (latest info is from 2011 college guides). But I think you'll find that Duke is more ethnically diverse, the m/f ratio is significantly closer to 50/50, greater % of international students (i.e., nationality), I believe you'll find more economic diversity in terms of financial aid (but this can be tricky to be conclusive on, since for most of their students UNC costs considerably less, thus less aid needed). Anyway, demographic diversity.

Given what we've read about UNC's low standards for major sport athletes, I am quite willing to concede that UNC may have more academic diversity. :D