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wandalee
02-27-2014, 08:14 AM
Senior night is tonight against Wake. Game time is 6:30 and will be shown on ESPN3.
I hate saying goodbye to this great senior class - Chelsea, Haley, Tricia, and Richa. Chloe still has some eligibility left, but I assume she is not coming back next year; don't know if she'll be honored tonight or not, but my guess is no since she hasn't been on the bench for the last few weeks.

MCFinARL
02-27-2014, 08:36 AM
Senior night is tonight against Wake. Game time is 6:30 and will be shown on ESPN3.
I hate saying goodbye to this great senior class - Chelsea, Haley, Tricia, and Richa. Chloe still has some eligibility left, but I assume she is not coming back next year; don't know if she'll be honored tonight or not, but my guess is no since she hasn't been on the bench for the last few weeks.

Does anyone know why she has not been there? I know she is injured and apparently can't play, but disappearing from the bench is a bit unusual. Maybe she doesn't feel a strong emotional tie to the team and just had other things she wanted to do with her time?

aswewere
02-27-2014, 11:07 AM
Does anyone know why she has not been there? I know she is injured and apparently can't play, but disappearing from the bench is a bit unusual. Maybe she doesn't feel a strong emotional tie to the team and just had other things she wanted to do with her time?

Chloe http://www.swishappeal.com/2014/2/27/5451452/duke-womens-basketball-chloe-wells-senior-night

jv001
02-27-2014, 11:49 AM
Look for pressure on the ball in every game left on the schedule. This team has been turnover prone with Jones at full strength. But the main thing tonight is give these seniors a good send off. Beat Wake. GoDuke!

aswewere
02-27-2014, 12:28 PM
Look for pressure on the ball in every game left on the schedule. This team has been turnover prone with Jones at full strength. But the main thing tonight is give these seniors a good send off. Beat Wake. GoDuke!


We have been dribbling to much which has other players standing
around to see where the ball ends up. A good passing game will give
us more movement and hopefully more open looks

chrishoke
02-27-2014, 01:43 PM
Chloe http://www.swishappeal.com/2014/2/27/5451452/duke-womens-basketball-chloe-wells-senior-night

This is ridiculous. Why doesn't Duke tell fans, supporters and the media what's going on with Chloe???

aswewere
02-27-2014, 02:22 PM
This is ridiculous. Why doesn't Duke tell fans, supporters and the media what's going on with Chloe???

Where would you have them start Emily Waner, assistant coaches, or the transfers?

Indoor66
02-27-2014, 02:34 PM
Where would you have them start Emily Waner, assistant coaches, or the transfers?

Why do you think you are entitled to any information about the personal decisions made by these individuals? It is quite possible that they do not desire to make public the basis of their decisions. Each of them would have a forum if they chose to use it. You are truly obsessed.

aswewere
02-27-2014, 03:06 PM
Why do you think you are entitled to any information about the personal decisions made by these individuals? It is quite possible that they do not desire to make public the basis of their decisions. Each of them would have a forum if they chose to use it. You are truly obsessed.

Where did I indicate that wanted or should have this info? It does look like some one
does not want it in there trophy case though.

throatybeard
02-27-2014, 03:06 PM
Why does every WBB immediately get weird?

If this doesn't cease, I'm going to have to make up a drinking game about it.

chrishoke
02-27-2014, 04:54 PM
So no one would find it odd if Tyler Thornton was not on the bench for the Wake or UNC games and was not mentioned or honored on senior night and Duke made no mention of it?

Duvall
02-27-2014, 05:04 PM
Why does every WBB immediately get weird?

If this doesn't cease, I'm going to have to make up a drinking game about it.

When Krzyzewski retires, every thread will be like this, year-round. So.

AIM4excellence
02-27-2014, 05:05 PM
Why does every WBB immediately get weird?

If this doesn't cease, I'm going to have to make up a drinking game about it.

I'm not sure what this statement means. Are you saying that WBB threads get weird? Or that WBB gets weird? The answer to this question is important for determining the drinking game rules.

brevity
02-27-2014, 05:10 PM
Why does every WBB immediately get weird?

If this doesn't cease, I'm going to have to make up a drinking game about it.

Why bother with a drinking game? These immediately weird WBB threads make prime material for your next DBR Handy Pocket Reference. I mean...


15) Womenís Basketball
a) Goestenkors canít coach big games.
b) Our team is soft compared to [UNC/UConn/SEC team]
c) [UNCís toughest player] is the biggest bitch in the history of Western Civilization.
d) Sweet tap-dancing Moses, did you see what Sylvia Hatchell was wearing?
e) How do I get tickets to the sold-out [UNC/UTK/UConn] womenís game (1 month after they were sold). I really want to go; itís the only womenís game Iíve ever been interested in, after all
f) Iíve only seen the two nationally televised games all season, but being an experienced basketball fan I have to say, [player] is simply a liability to this team.
g) My rec-league team of five fortysomething guys could beat a team of five Alana Beards.
h) Wooden says the womenís game is purer, Ha, take that!
i) Womenís BB players shouldnít have their numbers retired or be considered to have school-wide records because itís a different sport.
j) Chris Moreland gets no respect, what up?

Kedsy
02-27-2014, 05:18 PM
Why bother with a drinking game? These immediately weird WBB threads make prime material for your next DBR Handy Pocket Reference. I mean...

Considering what some people in WBB threads say over and over again, I find the following entry from the Pocket Reference Guide very instructive.



15) Womenís Basketball
a) Goestenkors canít coach big games.


So perhaps all Coach P has to do in order to become a Goddess is to jilt us for a higher-paying gig elsewhere.

chrishoke
02-27-2014, 05:20 PM
I'm a long time poster here. I don't understand the response I evoked. My apologies.

brevity
02-27-2014, 05:22 PM
I'm a long time poster here. I don't understand the response I evoked. My apologies.

Understandable. This is a fairly recent development.

If you get a chance, read any WBB thread from the past month. The immediate awkwardness you feel is fascinating.

Duvall
02-27-2014, 05:39 PM
I'm a long time poster here. I don't understand the response I evoked. My apologies.

Don't apologize. Some folks here are on edge, others just rude.

burnspbesq
02-27-2014, 06:09 PM
So no one would find it odd if Tyler Thornton was not on the bench for the Wake or UNC games and was not mentioned or honored on senior night and Duke made no mention of it?

No. For all any of us know, it could be an academic or student conduct issue, in which case Federal privacy law would be in play. Or it could be the famous "unspecified violation of team rules."

There is no legal, moral, or ethical obligation of transparency or full disclosure here. We STILL don't know why Lindsey Harding had to sit out a year, and that's as it should be.

throatybeard
02-27-2014, 06:22 PM
Or it could be the famous "unspecified violation of team rules"...We STILL don't know why Lindsey Harding had to sit out a year, and that's as it should be.

I think that was reported as one of those, wasn't it?

tbyers11
02-27-2014, 06:40 PM
No. For all any of us know, it could be an academic or student conduct issue, in which case Federal privacy law would be in play. Or it could be the famous "unspecified violation of team rules."

There is no legal, moral, or ethical obligation of transparency or full disclosure here. We STILL don't know why Lindsey Harding had to sit out a year, and that's as it should be.

My understanding of the Chloe Wells situation is not that Duke reported that she is no longer with the team for the infamous "unspecified violation of team rules". I would be curious in that situation but understand why full transparency is sometimes not plausible. It is that she disappeared off the bench, is not being honored on Senior Night and Duke literally has not said one word about the situation. That is what I find odd. Am I correct this in this assumption? I read the link above and did not see a mention of any official statement from Duke.

DU82
02-27-2014, 07:02 PM
Switching to talking about the game, no surprise that Wake is pressing on D. The plan is to have Richa bring the ball up, pass to a tall player (basically the rest of the team!) at about mid-court, much as Zoubek did to break the press.

I think the team is thinking pass more than when Alexis or Chelsea was playing (not meant as a negative to either). 23-17 with seven minutes left in the first.

(We're also slowing things down.)

MCFinARL
02-27-2014, 07:12 PM
My understanding of the Chloe Wells situation is not that Duke reported that she is no longer with the team for the infamous "unspecified violation of team rules". I would be curious in that situation but understand why full transparency is sometimes not plausible. It is that she disappeared off the bench, is not being honored on Senior Night and Duke literally has not said one word about the situation. That is what I find odd. Am I correct this in this assumption? I read the link above and did not see a mention of any official statement from Duke.

Yes--I am sorry that I apparently started this brouhaha by asking if anyone knew what the situation was with Chloe. I certainly did not mean to suggest that we have any right to know every detail of her situation, whatever it is, which I don't think we do. While I might be curious to know whether she chose to leave the team (if she has) or whether she has been dismissed from the team, I don't think anyone has an obligation to satisfy that idle curiosity.

I did wonder whether it has been announced officially that she has left the team, because it does seem a bit odd for her to disappear near the end of her senior without anyone saying a thing about it. However, I'm going to withdraw that question in the interest of moving on.

burnspbesq
02-27-2014, 07:25 PM
We need to do a better job of pressuring entry passes or Hamby is going to have a career night.

Crazy that we're shooting >50 percent, are plus six on the boards, and only lead by five.

-jk
02-27-2014, 07:28 PM
Switching to talking about the game, no surprise that Wake is pressing on D. The plan is to have Richa bring the ball up, pass to a tall player (basically the rest of the team!) at about mid-court, much as Zoubek did to break the press.

I think the team is thinking pass more than when Alexis or Chelsea was playing (not meant as a negative to either). 23-17 with seven minutes left in the first.

(We're also slowing things down.)

Please keep us informed! Web trends are horrible...

-jk

DU82
02-27-2014, 07:29 PM
Halftime score is 33-28.

We have some unforced errors that are keeping Wake in the game. Bringing the ball up court hasn't been. A big problem, other than rushing things when they don't need to be. Wakes guards aren't doing a great job there.

We're getting beat on boards, Wake has too many put backs after missed shots. Oderah's doing a good job boxing out, but others are missing that assignment.

Haley has 11 points, but sat for the last few minutes with two fouls. Richa definitely came to play and pick up ball handling duties. Tricia's game is really off. Trying to handle the ball is perhaps too much, and she hasn't looked comfortable out there, and isn't able to get open shots. Hopefully we'll see some adjustments to set her open in the second half.

DU82
02-27-2014, 07:33 PM
Halftime score is 33-28.

We have some unforced errors that are keeping Wake in the game. Bringing the ball up court hasn't been. A big problem, other than rushing things when they don't need to be. Wakes guards aren't doing a great job there.

We're getting beat on boards, Wake has too many put backs after missed shots. Oderah's doing a good job boxing out, but others are missing that assignment.

Haley has 11 points, but sat for the last few minutes with two fouls. Richa definitely came to play and pick up ball handling duties. Tricia's game is really off. Trying to handle the ball is perhaps too much, and she hasn't looked comfortable out there, and isn't able to get open shots. Hopefully we'll see some adjustments to set her open in the second half.

Just saw the stats, saw we are out-bounding them, but they do have 8 offensive boards. Seemed like more! Also we have 8 TOs to their six. Play patiently, ladies.

-jk
02-27-2014, 07:34 PM
ND 35, unc 20. Huh.

Is ND good?

-jk

DU82
02-27-2014, 07:43 PM
ND 35, unc 20. Huh.

Is ND good?

-jk

And they have all their guards playing. Well, other than Ivory.

DU82
02-27-2014, 07:51 PM
Nice series of plays by Ka'lia. A steal and layup, then during a loose ball situation, got control and tipped it ahead for a Tricia layup and WF timeout. 49-39,12:45 left.

Duvall
02-27-2014, 07:54 PM
Wake fouls a lot.

DU82
02-27-2014, 07:54 PM
Wake fouls a lot.

And they occasionally get called for it, too.

DU82
02-27-2014, 08:02 PM
54-46 at the 8 minute timeout.

Tricia's either hurt or cramping (she has a water bottle) and has been in and out the past few minutes. When she's out, she's either standing at the end of the bench or sitting with the trainer. Doesn't look too serious.

Bob Green
02-27-2014, 08:02 PM
Turnovers are preventing us from putting Wake Forest away. Not a surprise that we've been sloppy with the ball tonight.

burnspbesq
02-27-2014, 08:03 PM
And they occasionally get called for it, too.

Given the, ummm, spotty quality of ACC officiating, "occasionally" is probably the best you can hope for.

burnspbesq
02-27-2014, 08:05 PM
The Twelfth Commandment:

Posts, thou shalt run the floor, and thou shalt be rewarded for it.

DU82
02-27-2014, 08:08 PM
The Twelfth Commandment:

Posts, thou shalt run the floor, and thou shalt be rewarded for it.

Amen!

Duvall
02-27-2014, 08:23 PM
Gritty win. Duke clinches the 2-seed in the ACC Tournament, and the double bye.

chrishoke
02-27-2014, 08:30 PM
Excellent, gutty win by the Devils. Thank you Seniors!

msdukie
02-27-2014, 09:40 PM
When Krzyzewski retires, every thread will be like this, year-round. So.

No. It will be worse.


40 in a row against the Baptists. Adequate.

throatybeard
02-27-2014, 09:46 PM
No. It will be worse.


40 in a row against the Baptists. Adequate.

40? So going back to early Goestenkors?

I think that when Mike Krzyzewski retires, I'm just going to stop talking to other Duke people on the internet. The situation will get unbearably annoying unless the new guy wins a national title every year.

DU82
02-27-2014, 09:52 PM
Home from the game, and now at a real keyboard.

If this was hockey, our three stars would be Haley, Richa and Oderah.

Haley was all over the floor, playing the small forward spot that Richa previous had. She was active, smart, and shot well.

Richa had most of the ball handling duties, and really found space to drive and score.

Wake either wasn't prepared for that, or couldn't keep up. It helped that their main guards are relatively short. They did keep it close until the end, when a great series of passes ultimately found Tricia free for a killer three.

The third star was Oderah. She was one point away from a double-double. She was active on both boards, and while only credited with three blocks, I thought she had more. She also takes the ball to the basket when she gets an offensive rebound, and since she got EIGHT, she did that often. 4-4 from the floor.

Tricia looked a little off today, and as mentioned earlier she may have been sick, dehydrated and cramping, or had a minor injury. She did settle down, and as mentioned hit the killer three to seal the game.

Elizabeth started a bit off, and was beaten (out of position) on too many layups, but on offense drove to the basket aggressively (even if she missed two or three layups) and helped break the press by being a big target in the middle of the floor.

Ka'lia played 12 minutes, and I already mentioned her two big defensive plays (she wasn't officially credited with any steals, which I can't believe) and as our only "true" point guard, handled the ball a bit. She's still a little tentative on offense, but at least drove to the basket a couple of times so that the other team can't just lay off her.

Amber actually started in Alexis's place, and as yet another big target helped with bringing the ball up. Not a really strong game, but a good sign that she was able to play 16 minutes. We're finally seeing some of the rust come off. Can't wait until next year when she hopefully will actually be able to practice and get stronger during the summer.

Overall, I thought it was a well thought-out game plan, and after the team settled down and didn't rush/panic against the press, we did well. Of course, Wake is not a really good team, and we'll see how we handle the press the smurfs are sure to aim our way on Sunday.

Speaking of which, assuming that Syracuse can beat Wake and Georgia Tech handles BC, we can drop the heels down to seventh with what should be considered an upset win over at the chromatically challenged Carmichael arena on Sunday. Even if we don't, Syracuse has the tie-breaker and will drop them to sixth.

DU82
02-27-2014, 09:53 PM
40? So going back to early Goestenkors?


Back to the 1993 ACC tournament.

brevity
02-27-2014, 10:15 PM
When Krzyzewski retires, every thread will be like this, year-round. So.


No. It will be worse.


I think that when Mike Krzyzewski retires, I'm just going to stop talking to other Duke people on the internet. The situation will get unbearably annoying unless the new guy wins a national title every year.

Let's not forget that Coach K will be leaving Duke by retiring.* He's not taking another coaching job.

I get the sense that the WBB threads are so tense because everyone still feels jilted. Future MBB threads will be tense for entirely different reasons.

*I've started reading this book (http://www.benbradleejr.com/books.php) about Ted Williams, so I'm in a never-say-never mood when it comes to immortality. But even then we'll have intermittent coaches until Coach K is thawed out of carbonite, or whatever.

AIM4excellence
02-27-2014, 11:16 PM
Let's not forget that Coach K will be leaving Duke by retiring.* He's not taking another coaching job.

I get the sense that the WBB threads are so tense because everyone still feels jilted. Future MBB threads will be tense for entirely different reasons.

*I've started reading this book (http://www.benbradleejr.com/books.php) about Ted Williams, so I'm in a never-say-never mood when it comes to immortality. But even then we'll have intermittent coaches until Coach K is thawed out of carbonite, or whatever.

The only person I feel "jilted" by is Joe Alleva. Wish he'd taken hisself down to the bayou a few years earlier. He did not support Coach G and hired McCallie to "finally bring us a National Championship [that Coach G did not deliver]." We've gone the other direction. Tonight was the smallest and quietest senior night crowd I can remember since early 90's. When this class was signed, I pictured a very senior night. i certainly expected at least one Final Four banner.

Still need rules for drinking game.

Des Esseintes
02-27-2014, 11:46 PM
The only person I feel "jilted" by is Joe Alleva. Wish he'd taken hisself down to the bayou a few years earlier. He did not support Coach G and hired McCallie to "finally bring us a National Championship [that Coach G did not deliver]." We've gone the other direction. Tonight was the smallest and quietest senior night crowd I can remember since early 90's. When this class was signed, I pictured a very senior night. i certainly expected at least one Final Four banner.

Still need rules for drinking game.

I would bet cold hard cash this statement is untrue. And if it is, God help our fanbase.

Mike Corey
02-27-2014, 11:58 PM
[Coach G jilted] us for a higher-paying gig elsewhere.

Not that it matters anymore, but this is not what happened.

Congrats to the women on tonight's win on senior night. Given what's happened this year, I'm hopeful it resulted in some good feelings for the Blue Devils.

throatybeard
02-28-2014, 12:07 AM
Not that it matters anymore, but this is not what happened.

Also, there's the sticky matter: Goestenkors had less success at Texas than McCallie has had here.

sagegrouse
02-28-2014, 12:13 AM
Also, there's the sticky matter: Goestenkors had less success at Texas than McCallie has had here.

Throaty: I wish you'd stop confusing us with the facts. -- Kindly, Sage

Duvall
02-28-2014, 12:29 AM
I would bet cold hard cash this statement is untrue. And if it is, God help our fanbase.

It may well be true - bear in mind that senior night in UNC half the time. And while the Duke website only has boxscores going back to 2006, tonight's crowd of 4444 was the smallest last home crowd of the year by a fairly large margin.

Kedsy
02-28-2014, 12:38 AM
Haley really picked it up today. Great effort from a senior on senior night. I was glad to see Amber healthy enough to start. If she can continue to play decent minutes, we at least have a chance. Duke must be the tallest team in the country right now. Although teams with a better press might give us a lot more trouble.

All in all, a solid win. Now let's beat UNC on Sunday.

Mike Corey
02-28-2014, 12:50 AM
Also, there's the sticky matter: Goestenkors had less success at Texas than McCallie has had here.

Respectfully, that's neither in contention nor am I sure what you're inferring.

Kedsy
02-28-2014, 12:55 AM
Not that it matters anymore, but this is not what happened.

Congrats to the women on tonight's win on senior night. Given what's happened this year, I'm hopeful it resulted in some good feelings for the Blue Devils.

You were obviously more plugged in than I was. If you'd care to divulge the details in a PM, great. If not, I understand.

Cheers.

Des Esseintes
02-28-2014, 01:02 AM
It may well be true - bear in mind that senior night in UNC half the time. And while the Duke website only has boxscores going back to 2006, tonight's crowd of 4444 was the smallest last home crowd of the year by a fairly large margin.

OK, that makes a little sense. No UNC, plus deflation from all the injuries. Still, though. This team is 25-4.

Bob Green
02-28-2014, 05:12 AM
Although teams with a better press might give us a lot more trouble.

Beating the press will be a major challenge going forward. We struggled with sloppy/lazy passes last night. The team committed 17 turnovers. The team's approach to beating the press was methodical (announcer pointed this out repeatedly) so it wasn't panic, we simply threw a bunch of bad passes. We must take better care of the ball.

I've really enjoyed watching this group of seniors so it is really frustrating that injuries have decimated our ball handling capability.

DU82
02-28-2014, 07:03 AM
It may well be true - bear in mind that senior night in UNC half the time. And while the Duke website only has boxscores going back to 2006, tonight's crowd of 4444 was the smallest last home crowd of the year by a fairly large margin.

That includes all tickets sold. Cameron was nowhere close to being half full, which is what that number (roughly) represents. I was thinking closer to 2000.

jtelander
02-28-2014, 09:49 AM
That includes all tickets sold. Cameron was nowhere close to being half full, which is what that number (roughly) represents. I was thinking closer to 2000.

We are WBB season ticket holders, but totally lost interest in attending after the UConn and Notre Dame debacles and don't plan to return. I say this only to confirm that there are seats that were sold but have been empty for awhile.

burnspbesq
02-28-2014, 10:03 AM
The only person I feel "jilted" by is Joe Alleva. Wish he'd taken hisself down to the bayou a few years earlier. He did not support Coach G and hired McCallie to "finally bring us a National Championship [that Coach G did not deliver]." We've gone the other direction. Tonight was the smallest and quietest senior night crowd I can remember since early 90's. When this class was signed, I pictured a very senior night. i certainly expected at least one Final Four banner.

Still need rules for drinking game.

Alleva hired Danowski. Cut was hired on his watch (I tend to believe those who say Alleva's actual role in that process was limited). By any objective standard, those two successes far outweigh any perceived deficiencies that arise from hiring a women's basketball coach who wins around 80 percent of her games, wins conference championships, dramatically improves recruiting, and whose players graduate on time.

And yes, I went there: the use of the word "objective" in that context was deliberate, and was intended to assert that your view of the situation is not objective.

Duvall
02-28-2014, 10:20 AM
Alleva hired Danowski. Cut was hired on his watch (I tend to believe those who say Alleva's actual role in that process was limited). By any objective standard, those two successes far outweigh any perceived deficiencies that arise from hiring a women's basketball coach who wins around 80 percent of her games, wins conference championships, dramatically improves recruiting, and whose players graduate on time.

And yes, I went there: the use of the word "objective" in that context was deliberate, and was intended to assert that your view of the situation is not objective.

That's certainly an...optimistic view of the tenure of Durham's finest racquetball partner. But it's hard to see the point in having that debate again now.

Kedsy
02-28-2014, 10:24 AM
Beating the press will be a major challenge going forward. We struggled with sloppy/lazy passes last night. The team committed 17 turnovers.

For what it's worth, the team has averaged 17.4 turnovers per game this season, obviously including 28 games with Alexis, 17 games with Chelsea (and Alexis) and 19 games with Chloe (and Alexis and mostly with Chelsea too). So committing 17 last night was actually better than I expected. That said, against elite teams beating the press should be a major area of concentration.

AIM4excellence
02-28-2014, 03:42 PM
Alleva hired Danowski. Cut was hired on his watch (I tend to believe those who say Alleva's actual role in that process was limited). By any objective standard, those two successes far outweigh any perceived deficiencies that arise from hiring a women's basketball coach who wins around 80 percent of her games, wins conference championships, dramatically improves recruiting, and whose players graduate on time.

And yes, I went there: the use of the word "objective" in that context was deliberate, and was intended to assert that your view of the situation is not objective.

LOL. Use of the word "objective" is subjective. Here is my "objective" subjective opinion. 1. Joe Alleva did not support Coach G and said "she hasn't won an NC." She had taken the team to FOUR Final Fours in 8 years. 2. Joe Alleva hired Coach McCallie and said "this is the coach who can finally win an NC for this program. She has taken the team to ZERO Final Fours in (almost) 7 years. Win records at Duke are roughly equivalent, though Coach G's record in her first few years was not as good as McCallie's first few years at Duke, it must be tempered with the # of HS AA's on each squad and the fact that in Coach G's early Duke years, she had ZERO HS AA's, while Coach McCallie's early Duke teams had multiple HS AA's and players who had gone to a Final Four.

Kedsy
02-28-2014, 04:04 PM
LOL. Use of the word "objective" is subjective. Here is my "objective" subjective opinion. 1. Joe Alleva did not support Coach G and said "she hasn't won an NC." She had taken the team to FOUR Final Fours in 8 years. 2. Joe Alleva hired Coach McCallie and said "this is the coach who can finally win an NC for this program. She has taken the team to ZERO Final Fours in (almost) 7 years. Win records at Duke are roughly equivalent, though Coach G's record in her first few years was not as good as McCallie's first few years at Duke, it must be tempered with the # of HS AA's on each squad and the fact that in Coach G's early Duke years, she had ZERO HS AA's, while Coach McCallie's early Duke teams had multiple HS AA's and players who had gone to a Final Four.

Is this the basis for your animus against Coach P? Because of Joe Alleva?

AIM4excellence
02-28-2014, 04:34 PM
Is this the basis for your animus against Coach P? Because of Joe Alleva?

No, not at all. McCallie was far from my first choice as a replacement for Coach G. However, I was willing to suspend my personal lack of interest, with the hope that McCallie COULD get the NC that eluded Coach G. Then I watched Abby Waner implode on the floor and then Emily Waner leave the team in her senior year. Then I watched the team lose every year before the Final Four. Then came the exodus of Asst Coaches. Next the twitter rants. The reason I didn't want McCallie is her preferred style of play before Duke, which I found to be very boring. She did not adapt her style to the players she had initially and I feel she had not made maximal use of the players she recruited. The style of play is not only boring to watch, it is not effective against elite teams. Having one of the three most talented teams, we can beat less talented teams half the time, but cannot beat a team with equal or better talent at all.

Joe Alleva is a drunken fool and fits in better in a part of the country where getting drunk on a boat is more socially acceptable. My feelings about him have nothing at all to do with my feelings about Coach McCallie, which I think I've covered above. The only connection is that he brought her here. Period. She has sunk herself.

MCFinARL
02-28-2014, 04:36 PM
Alleva hired Danowski. Cut was hired on his watch (I tend to believe those who say Alleva's actual role in that process was limited). By any objective standard, those two successes far outweigh any perceived deficiencies that arise from hiring a women's basketball coach who wins around 80 percent of her games, wins conference championships, dramatically improves recruiting, and whose players graduate on time.

And yes, I went there: the use of the word "objective" in that context was deliberate, and was intended to assert that your view of the situation is not objective.

I realize this is a side point from your post. And I do not mean to reopen the Coach P bashing--far from it. She has recruited many excellent players. But is it fair to Goestenkors, who brought in Alana Beard, Monique Curry, Misty Bass, Lindsay Harding, etc., to say that McCallie has "dramatically improved" recruiting?

Duvall
02-28-2014, 04:37 PM
The style of play is not only boring to watch, it is not effective against elite teams. Having one of the three most talented teams, we can beat less talented teams half the time, but cannot beat a team with equal or better talent at all.

Duke beats less talented teams almost all the time. Like more than 90%, I think. Teams with equal talent, more than half the time.

killerleft
02-28-2014, 04:53 PM
LOL. Use of the word "objective" is subjective. Here is my "objective" subjective opinion. 1. Joe Alleva did not support Coach G and said "she hasn't won an NC." She had taken the team to FOUR Final Fours in 8 years. 2. Joe Alleva hired Coach McCallie and said "this is the coach who can finally win an NC for this program. She has taken the team to ZERO Final Fours in (almost) 7 years. Win records at Duke are roughly equivalent, though Coach G's record in her first few years was not as good as McCallie's first few years at Duke, it must be tempered with the # of HS AA's on each squad and the fact that in Coach G's early Duke years, she had ZERO HS AA's, while Coach McCallie's early Duke teams had multiple HS AA's and players who had gone to a Final Four.

I'm not sure how to respond to this other than to say that Joe Alleva and Joanne McCallie are two different people.

The rest of your post is just stuff that can be argued forever. It might be instructive to note that there are two deserving players (Beard and Harding) who had their numbers retired during the Goestenkors years. There are others who could be seriously considered (Curry and Schweitzer come to mind). These are players who actually BECAME stars, not ones who were given some imaginary powers as high school players.

I do not blame anyone for not winning a national championship. Certainly not Goestenkors. I was very sad we didn't get one, and that we haven't gotten one since. How you find blame with McCallie for not winning one that Joe Alleva promised is beyound me.

burnspbesq
02-28-2014, 05:30 PM
LOL. Use of the word "objective" is subjective. Here is my "objective" subjective opinion. 1. Joe Alleva did not support Coach G and said "she hasn't won an NC." She had taken the team to FOUR Final Fours in 8 years. 2. Joe Alleva hired Coach McCallie and said "this is the coach who can finally win an NC for this program. She has taken the team to ZERO Final Fours in (almost) 7 years. Win records at Duke are roughly equivalent, though Coach G's record in her first few years was not as good as McCallie's first few years at Duke, it must be tempered with the # of HS AA's on each squad and the fact that in Coach G's early Duke years, she had ZERO HS AA's, while Coach McCallie's early Duke teams had multiple HS AA's and players who had gone to a Final Four.

So seven consecutive trips to the final four, two national championships, and two Teewaaraton Award winners mean nothing to you? And neither do back-to-back bowl games for the first time in school history?

That's useful to know, I guess.

sagegrouse
02-28-2014, 05:32 PM
No, not at all. McCallie was far from my first choice as a replacement for Coach G. However, I was willing to suspend my personal lack of interest, with the hope that McCallie COULD get the NC that eluded Coach G. Then I watched Abby Waner implode on the floor and then Emily Waner leave the team in her senior year. Then I watched the team lose every year before the Final Four. Then came the exodus of Asst Coaches. Next the twitter rants. The reason I didn't want McCallie is her preferred style of play before Duke, which I found to be very boring. She did not adapt her style to the players she had initially and I feel she had not made maximal use of the players she recruited. The style of play is not only boring to watch, it is not effective against elite teams. Having one of the three most talented teams, we can beat less talented teams half the time, but cannot beat a team with equal or better talent at all.

Joe Alleva is a drunken fool and fits in better in a part of the country where getting drunk on a boat is more socially acceptable. My feelings about him have nothing at all to do with my feelings about Coach McCallie, which I think I've covered above. The only connection is that he brought her here. Period. She has sunk herself.

I appreciate these are your true feelings, but you are completely out of line on a public Board -- especially a Board where you are supposedly a fan.

Kedsy
02-28-2014, 06:06 PM
Having one of the three most talented teams, we can beat less talented teams half the time, but cannot beat a team with equal or better talent at all.

It's statements like these that destroy what little credibility existed in the rest of your rants.

aswewere
02-28-2014, 06:30 PM
I appreciate these are your true feelings, but you are completely out of line on a public Board -- especially a Board where you are supposedly a fan.

Some Duke fans look for a coach to have great character and class which have
been absent in the twitter events and others mentioned here.

AIM4excellence
02-28-2014, 07:42 PM
It's statements like these that destroy what little credibility existed in the rest of your rants.

I realize that ranking of talent has subjective components, but this characterization (that Duke cannot beat teams with equal talent) is shared widely among WBB journalists and commentators. You need to take it up with them.

DU82
02-28-2014, 09:15 PM
So seven consecutive trips to the final four, two national championships, and two Teewaaraton Award winners mean nothing to you? And neither do back-to-back bowl games for the first time in school history?

That's useful to know, I guess.

We're talking women's basketball, not men's lacrosse. Or football. What you talk about may be relevant to the discussion about Alleva, but has nothing to do with McCallie's performance as women's basketball coach.

throatybeard
02-28-2014, 09:19 PM
Respectfully, that's neither in contention nor am I sure what you're inferring.

I'm not inferring anything, although I suspect you mean 'insinuating,' from a prescriptive perspective.

I'm stating explicitly that, while a lot of folks argue that McCallie is a failure/disappointment/mild disappointment, despite Goestenkors having "handed her the keys" to an established program, I seldom hear anyone who is making said argument manage to note that Goestenkors was "handed the keys" (that's the verbiage, yes?) by Jody Conradt, the second winningest WBB coach in history. GG then proceeded to go 40-42 in the Big XII, and her teams got bounced in the 1R of the NCAAT four of five years.

And people are furious that McCallie loses in the region final all the time. What if it was the 1R? I love GG, but I think any fan of Texas WBB would find this argument pretty hilarious. Who fared better after the Goestenkors exit, Duke or Texas? Duke, and it's not even close.

I'd love it if Goestenkors never left and kept her 2006/2007 momentum rolling. But we can't make that be so. My fervent hope is that she gets back into a college head coaching job at some point and runs up a fairly gaudy win total by the time she's like 70yo.

Kedsy
02-28-2014, 10:27 PM
Having one of the three most talented teams, we can beat less talented teams half the time, but cannot beat a team with equal or better talent at all.


I realize that ranking of talent has subjective components, but this characterization (that Duke cannot beat teams with equal talent) is shared widely among WBB journalists and commentators. You need to take it up with them.

Yes, (a) "three most talented teams" is subjective, and arguable; and yes, (b) the idea that "Duke cannot beat a team with equal or better talent" is a tired meme perpetuated by others as well as yourself. But the most ridiculous part of the first quoted sentence is (c) "we can beat less talented teams half the time."

Because if we beat less talented teams "half the time" and beat equally and more talented teams not at all, then Coach P's winning percentage would be in the 40s, when in fact it is in the 80s.

So maybe you didn't mean to say "half the time," or maybe you were exaggerating to make a point that eludes me, or maybe you chose in your second post to ignore the most indefensible portion of the original quote, but I stand by my assertion that when you say things like the first quote, things that are patently untrue, you lose credibility for all your other criticisms.

killerleft
02-28-2014, 11:32 PM
Some Duke fans look for a coach to have great character and class which have
been absent in the twitter events and others mentioned here.

I learned something from this post.

AIM4excellence
03-01-2014, 08:15 PM
I'm not inferring anything, although I suspect you mean 'insinuating,' from a prescriptive perspective.

I'm stating explicitly that, while a lot of folks argue that McCallie is a failure/disappointment/mild disappointment, despite Goestenkors having "handed her the keys" to an established program, I seldom hear anyone who is making said argument manage to note that Goestenkors was "handed the keys" (that's the verbiage, yes?) by Jody Conradt, the second winningest WBB coach in history. GG then proceeded to go 40-42 in the Big XII, and her teams got bounced in the 1R of the NCAAT four of five years.

And people are furious that McCallie loses in the region final all the time. What if it was the 1R? I love GG, but I think any fan of Texas WBB would find this argument pretty hilarious. Who fared better after the Goestenkors exit, Duke or Texas? Duke, and it's not even close.

I'd love it if Goestenkors never left and kept her 2006/2007 momentum rolling. But we can't make that be so. My fervent hope is that she gets back into a college head coaching job at some point and runs up a fairly gaudy win total by the time she's like 70yo.

There is a ginormous flaw in your logic - the Texas program was already on a downward trend before Coach G arrived. It was not chock full of AA's when she arrived. She was supposed to rebuild it but for a variety of reasons, that did not happen. It was a dramatically different situation than the one McCallie walked into at Duke. Texas needed someone that was from Texas to keep Texas kids at home. Majorly flawed argument you're trying to make and pretty irrelevant to the topic of where the DWB program is now compared to 2007. DWB has achieved a LOT less in those years - especially in March and there has been NO April for DWB, unless you count the banquet.

AIM4excellence
03-01-2014, 08:21 PM
Yes, (a) "three most talented teams" is subjective, and arguable; and yes, (b) the idea that "Duke cannot beat a team with equal or better talent" is a tired meme perpetuated by others as well as yourself. But the most ridiculous part of the first quoted sentence is (c) "we can beat less talented teams half the time."

Because if we beat less talented teams "half the time" and beat equally and more talented teams not at all, then Coach P's winning percentage would be in the 40s, when in fact it is in the 80s.

So maybe you didn't mean to say "half the time," or maybe you were exaggerating to make a point that eludes me, or maybe you chose in your second post to ignore the most indefensible portion of the original quote, but I stand by my assertion that when you say things like the first quote, things that are patently untrue, you lose credibility for all your other criticisms.

LOL. "Tired meme" translate as "this is what all the WBB journalists/commentators say and I'm tired of it." I'm glad you agree that this is what most in the profession are saying. And it's laughable that it's only hard-core homers who disagree with it. This is my team but I don't put blinders on when it's in trouble. I say what I think because I want the program to return to the elite instead of continuing the slide out of the elite that it's currently in. Call it what you will "tired meme" works fine. The program is no longer elite. It no longer is in serious competition for a National Championship.

AIM4excellence
03-01-2014, 08:28 PM
Having one of the three most talented teams, we can beat less talented teams half the time, but cannot beat a team with equal or better talent at all.
.

I realize that I did not phrase that comment well at all to reflect what I was thinking. What I meant to say was "Duke can beat RANKED teams with less talent half the time, but cannot beat a team with equal or better talent at all."

Obviously the statement I wrote makes no sense without the addition of the word "ranked". Duke beats unranked teams at a very high clip, closer to 90% than 50%. I apologize for not wording my orginal statement better.

Duvall
03-01-2014, 08:31 PM
I realize that I did not phrase that comment well at all to reflect what I was thinking. What I meant to say was "Duke can beat RANKED teams with less talent half the time, but cannot beat a team with equal or better talent at all."

Obviously the statement I wrote makes no sense without the addition of the word "ranked". Duke beats unranked teams at a very high clip, closer to 90% than 50%. I apologize for not wording my orginal statement better.

I don't even think *that's* true. I doubt Duke's record against teams ranked 5-25 is close to being as low as .500.

Kedsy
03-02-2014, 01:36 AM
I realize that I did not phrase that comment well at all to reflect what I was thinking. What I meant to say was "Duke can beat RANKED teams with less talent half the time, but cannot beat a team with equal or better talent at all."

Obviously the statement I wrote makes no sense without the addition of the word "ranked". Duke beats unranked teams at a very high clip, closer to 90% than 50%. I apologize for not wording my orginal statement better.

Sorry, but your statement is still grossly inaccurate. In the last five seasons (including this one so far), Duke has lost to UConn, Notre Dame, and Stanford (presumably the teams you think have equal or better talent) 12 times with no wins. That much is true. But against all other ranked teams over that time span, Duke's record is 38-5 (winning pct. of .884). There is no possible interpretation of a winning percentage of almost .900 as "half the time."

To be complete, in 2008 and 2009, Duke didn't have the talent we've had in the past five years. In those two years combined, we were 8-4 against ranked teams ranked lower than us (.667 -- again much better than half) and 3-9 against ranked teams ranked higher than us (not so great, but better than the "not at all" that you suggest).

So, while you're right that you didn't phrase the first comment well, your corrected phrasing is frankly not all that much better. Let's face it, you're just wrong.


"Tired meme" translate as "this is what all the WBB journalists/commentators say and I'm tired of it." I'm glad you agree that this is what most in the profession are saying.

Thanks for your "translation," but not only is that not what I meant, it isn't true. Nor did I say or have ever agreed that this is what "most in the profession are saying." Please don't put words in my mouth.

aswewere
03-02-2014, 05:02 AM
Sorry, but your statement is still grossly inaccurate. In the last five seasons (including this one so far), Duke has lost to UConn, Notre Dame, and Stanford (presumably the teams you think have equal or better talent) 12 times with no wins. That much is true. But against all other ranked teams over that time span, Duke's record is 38-5 (winning pct. of .884). There is no possible interpretation of a winning percentage of almost .900 as "half the time."

To be complete, in 2008 and 2009, Duke didn't have the talent we've had in the past five years. In those two years combined, we were 8-4 against ranked teams ranked lower than us (.667 -- again much better than half) and 3-9 against ranked teams ranked higher than us (not so great, but better than the "not at all" that you suggest).

So, while you're right that you didn't phrase the first comment well, your corrected phrasing is frankly not all that much better. Let's face it, you're just wrong.



Thanks for your "translation," but not only is that not what I meant, it isn't true. Nor did I say or have ever agreed that this is what "most in the profession are saying." Please don't put words in my mouth.

Unfortunately this is true, if you haven't read or heard this you are out of touch with our sport.