Duke porn star and student loans

[Atlanta Duke]

Uh-oh - Duke students' lifestyle choices back in the national news

Time for President Brodhead to dust off the playbook used in responding to inquiries when Karen Owen's PowerPoint went viral

Duke student responds to critics after outing as porn star

A freshman at Duke University who was outed as a porn star last month has broken her silence, responding to the criticism she’s faced since the news broke across Duke's campus.

After a student on campus outed the adult film actress, she sat for an interview with Duke University's student newspaper, the Chronicle, saying she wants to “control the conversation” being had about her.

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/national/duke-student-responds-critics-after-outing-porn-st/ndZQs/

Link to Chronicle interview that ran on Valentine's Day

Portrait of a porn star
Duke freshman stands behind her alter-ego

http://www.dukechronicle.com/articles/2014/02/14/portrait-porn-star

[YmoBeThere]

The lesson she has now learned, you can't really control the conversation being had about you.

[throatybeard]

I'm pretty impressed with her response, which is circulating on Facebook. I won't link it, but it's sex-positive and she sounds like a strong individual. I'm in no position to judge.

[Edouble]

I'm sold. She is an excellent writer and critical thinker, particularly for her age.

[Atlanta Duke]

I'm pretty impressed with her response, which is circulating on Facebook. I won't link it, but it's sex-positive and she sounds like a strong individual. I'm in no position to judge.

She seems pretty savvy based on this interview with New York Magazine that was put online today. Someone decided to work on a media strategy.

Q&A: The Duke Freshman Porn Star

When a Duke freshman revealed herself to be a porn star last week, her story's sensationalism was somehow familiar: College student plus sex equals another occasion for overnight internet notoriety, with some old-fashioned slut-shaming in the comments section. But what makes the Duke Freshman Porn Star unique, as far as collegiate women turned sex memes go, is that she hasn’t gone away.

http://nymag.com/thecut/2014/02/qa-the-duke-freshman-porn-star.html

I had not heard about this until the AJC ran the story today but this is getting play in publications including (no surprise) the British tabloids.

[Indoor66]

This strikes me as entirely sexist. It is OK to "come out" being gay. Why is is an issue to "come out" for being hetro or for doing porn?

[Reisen]

I'm sold. She is an excellent writer and critical thinker, particularly for her age.

+1. I considered linking this when the Chronicle story first broke, but decided to hold off until it got national attention (it's on the front page of cnn.com at the moment).

The story is interesting to me because it contains so many titillating details (some cliched) that the media outlets are just eating up:

- She's not just a student porn star, she's a "freshman" porn star. Somehow that one year between a freshman and sophomore is an important detail not left out of any media story.

- Obviously Duke has had their share of sex stories in the media (LAX, Karen Owen, to a lesser extent the Steve Aoki girl), and the combination of elite University plus deep South (yes, I just claimed Durham was the deep South) evidently continues to make the story more newsworthy than if she was a freshman at, say, Arizona State (I'm resisting the urge to make a joke here).

- She's a bisexual feminist (interesting angle in our current political environment)

- She "had her life ruined" by a frat pledge during rush who got drunk and spilled the story. I mean, that's straight out of a 1980's John Cusack movie.

- She's speaking out on negative aspects of the culture (including the Greek culture) at Duke. That's nothing new (see the stories above), but the media and public eat that up. To be fair, nothing she mentions in any of her interviews conflicts with what I saw there, but I kind of thought things had changed in the last decade.

- Her approach to the porn business seems somewhat similar to a moderately well known female blogger / journalist who recently made a sex tape with a very well known male porn star "just to write about the process". This analytical angle is something new and novel in one of the oldest industries around.

- She's advocating for sex workers' rights, which is another interesting twist to the story.

- The political angle of her being a college Republican is too juicy to ignore.

- She's attempting to keep her anonymity, and more importantly, her "two lives" separate. Everyone likes a story about people living dual lives, and if those lives are seemingly in conflict with each other (feminist college Republican vs sex worker, lying to her parents about where she spends her school breaks) it makes for near required reading for many of these publications.

This story has been out there for over a week, but it's just getting started. I'm expecting a 60 Minutes interview in the next couple of months (with her face & possibly voice obscured).

[duke79]

Jeez, I know selective colleges like Duke like to have diverse student bodies and uniquely talented kids, but this may be going a LITTLE too far in that direction. LOL

[weezie]

Jeez, I know selective colleges like Duke like to have diverse student bodies and uniquely talented kids, but this may be going a LITTLE too far in that direction. LOL


"Well, we've never had a [fashion major] before....."

[Mike Corey]

Sometimes you just gotta say, "What the F, make your move."

http://www.powersteeringsoftware.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/risky-business.jpg

In all seriousness, she's clearly got the writing and critical thinking skills. Surely, more so than I did when I was a Duke first-year. Best of luck to her.

[davekay1971]

This is such a non-story. She may be doing something that is (1) risky to health and (2) something I'd prefer my daughters not do, for so many reasons...but ultimately she's an adult choosing to make money legally. If she were my daughter, I'd be worried for her, upset, try to talk her into a different profession. But she's not my daughter, and I'm not walking in her shoes or (more to the point for me as a 42 year old guy) her father's shoes. I hope she gets what she wants out of her work in that field, and that she comes out of it healthy and intact (physically and emotionally).

Not to take this into PPB territory, but I wanted to make one personal note: I saw in the article that she is a "young Republican." As a Conservative (with a Libertarian bent), I sincerely hope this young lady stays active and engaged in politics. While the national perception of Republican women seems to be that they are submissive, or living in a 50s fantasy, my personal experience of the Republican women in my own life is that they are strong, intelligent, independent, and comfortable in their sexuality. A smart, attractive, and "rule-breaking" Republican woman would be a welcome addition to the public profile of the party.

[davekay1971]

Wow. In the nymag article this young woman expressed my political views, as well as my societal views about the rather pathetic sexual maturity of young men, better than I could. Bravo.

[Edouble]

This is such a non-story. She may be doing something that is (1) risky to health and (2) something I'd prefer my daughters not do, for so many reasons...but ultimately she's an adult choosing to make money legally. If she were my daughter, I'd be worried for her, upset, try to talk her into a different profession. But she's not my daughter, and I'm not walking in her shoes or (more to the point for me as a 42 year old guy) her father's shoes. I hope she gets what she wants out of her work in that field, and that she comes out of it healthy and intact (physically and emotionally).

Not to take this into PPB territory, but I wanted to make one personal note: I saw in the article that she is a "young Republican." As a Conservative (with a Libertarian bent), I sincerely hope this young lady stays active and engaged in politics. While the national perception of Republican women seems to be that they are submissive, or living in a 50s fantasy, my personal experience of the Republican women in my own life is that they are strong, intelligent, independent, and comfortable in their sexuality. A smart, attractive, and "rule-breaking" Republican woman would be a welcome addition to the public profile of the party.

Sarah Palin says hello!

I, too, have much to say about this topic, but of course, I am wary about drawing the discussion into the PPB territory.

My two biggest questions are:

1) How do her parents think she is paying for college? I had some loans and grants myself, but my parents were very involved in the paperwork. I am pretty sure they had to cosign on some stuff, and certainly fill out some forms to report their respective incomes! Has she just taken care of her tuition bills without her parents looking over her shoulder? I don't expect an answer, it just seems a bit odd.

2) Porn really pays THAT well? I'm sure that the big name stars pull in a good income, but you can turn enough for Duke tuition as a newb? This surprises me. I gotta say... I am curious if we will hear of any other students at a top tier, high price tag institution look into the porn route to handle their tuition bill. I recall, from my application days, that Brown was not need blind. If I got in, but my only choice to flip the bill was to do a few scenes in an adult film... hmmm...

[Bluedog]

Sarah Palin says hello!

I, too, have much to say about this topic, but of course, I am wary about drawing the discussion into the PPB territory.

My two biggest questions are:

1) How do her parents think she is paying for college? I had some loans and grants myself, but my parents were very involved in the paperwork. I am pretty sure they had to cosign on some stuff, and certainly fill out some forms to report their respective incomes! Has she just taken care of her tuition bills without her parents looking over her shoulder? I don't expect an answer, it just seems a bit odd.

2) Porn really pays THAT well? I'm sure that the big name stars pull in a good income, but you can turn enough for Duke tuition as a newb? This surprises me. I gotta say... I am curious if we will hear of any other students at a top tier, high price tag institution look into the porn route to handle their tuition bill. I recall, from my application days, that Brown was not need blind. If I got in, but my only choice to flip the bill was to do a few scenes in an adult film... hmmm...

I'm fairly certain it is not really fully funding her tuition bill, it's just a catchy headline to use. Just spending money really. (Unless I missed it somewhere where she actually claims it's paying for school). As for how much it pays, The Chronicle article/interview gave industry standard figures depending on the type of scene. I think it ranged from like $600-$1600 if I'm recalling correctly.

Incidentally, Brown is now need blind for US freshman applicants. Don't think they are for transfers (at least, they weren't a few years ago). A school can also be full need and not need blind, meaning if you get in, it should be affordable, it's just harder to get in if you apply for aid, but if you ultimately get in, your financial need is fully met.

[Reisen]

2) Porn really pays THAT well? I'm sure that the big name stars pull in a good income, but you can turn enough for Duke tuition as a newb? This surprises me. I gotta say... I am curious if we will hear of any other students at a top tier, high price tag institution look into the porn route to handle their tuition bill. I recall, from my application days, that Brown was not need blind. If I got in, but my only choice to flip the bill was to do a few scenes in an adult film... hmmm...

http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-what-female-porn-stars-get-paid-for-different-types-of-scenes-2012-11

"While a decade ago the average female performer would make about $100,000 a year," Spiegler told THR "she now might make as little as $50,000 — all while juggling responsibilities such as social-media outreach and personal appearances."

But for the select few females who make it to the top of the industry, paychecks can be "upward of $350,000 a year, while top male performers can make more than $100,000 annually."

According to Dan Miller, executive managing editor of industry trade magazine XBIZ, there are about 250 "in-demand" women (called "models") who work regularly, shooting between 100 and 150 scenes per year. "A popular girl is going to work a minimum of 10 times per month," he tells THR.

[SoCalDukeFan]

is blaming the guy for outing her.

If you don't want to be outed as a porn performer, don't do porn.

Did she really think she could keep this a secret?

I would assume by now she has told her parents.

SoCal

[Edouble]

I'm fairly certain it is not really fully funding her tuition bill, it's just a catchy headline to use. Just spending money really. (Unless I missed it somewhere where she actually claims it's paying for school). As for how much it pays, The Chronicle article/interview gave industry standard figures depending on the type of scene. I think it ranged from like $600-$1600 if I'm recalling correctly.

Incidentally, Brown is now need blind for US freshman applicants. Don't think they are for transfers (at least, they weren't a few years ago). A school can also be full need and not need blind, meaning if you get in, it should be affordable, it's just harder to get in if you apply for aid, but if you ultimately get in, your financial need is fully met.

Props. I am forgetting what need blind actually means.

But, she does claim, in so many words, that the filming is fully funding her education:

http://www.xojane.com/sex/duke-university-freshman-porn-star

"I couldn't afford $60,000 in tuition, my family has undergone significant financial burden, and I saw a way to graduate from my dream school free of debt, doing something I absolutely love."

[David]

is blaming the guy for outing her.

If you don't want to be outed as a porn performer, don't do porn.

Did she really think she could keep this a secret?

I would assume by now she has told her parents.

SoCal

I agree with you that her story would have inevitably come out, but I think you are being too easy on Bagley. See this story:

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/steve_duin/index.ssf/2014/02/steve_duin_blog_indecency_and.html

The key line: "Bagley said Lauren was walking with him to a pre-game and admitted her secret. She begged him to keep it private and he agreed, but he broke his promise at a rush event that evening."

If I confided in a friend, I would be deeply disappointed if they broke my trust. He has since admitted he made a mistake but we (unfortunately) don't get to pick the events that define us.

[weezie]

I would assume by now she has told her parents.


Reading this actually hurts.

[duke79]

Not to be flippant about this "situation", but, if the young woman in question was truly performing in porn flicks to raise money to pay for her Duke education, then maybe this story should motivate parents of young children to put as much money as possible into 529 college savings plans to avoid this unfortunate outcome.

[SoCalDukeFan]

I agree with you that her story would have inevitably come out, but I think you are being too easy on Bagley. See this story:

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/steve_duin/index.ssf/2014/02/steve_duin_blog_indecency_and.html

The key line: "Bagley said Lauren was walking with him to a pre-game and admitted her secret. She begged him to keep it private and he agreed, but he broke his promise at a rush event that evening."

If I confided in a friend, I would be deeply disappointed if they broke my trust. He has since admitted he made a mistake but we (unfortunately) don't get to pick the events that define us.

Remember she wants to make a lot of money from porn. So either she is going to make a lot movies or she is going to be a name and get paid a lot for each movie. In either case she is going to get recognized by someone, etc.

She also seems to me to be very smart so I would guess she knew it would come out eventually.

I guess Bagley should have kept her secret. But it was going to come out. I would not blame him for ruining her life.

I would guess that she is hardly the first college student, male or female, to be in porn for needed money. However, since its Duke she will be the most notorious. I wonder how being in porn affects ones future.

SoCal

[weezie]

I wonder how being in porn affects ones future.
SoCal

She could always become an ACC hoops ref, I guess?




(Ok, kidding, kidding)

[ricks68]

She could always become an ACC hoops ref, I guess?




(Ok, kidding, kidding)


Probably the most insightful post of the day!! Way to go weezie.

ricks

[moonpie23]

Guide to a good life:

find something that you love to do, and then figure out how to make money doing it....

[Bostondevil]

If a young woman at Duke wants to make porn films to fund her education, I suppose I'm OK with that. Everyone who is lauding her intelligence and creativity, well, as a woman I always ask myself, would I be OK with a man doing the same things. I'm not sure I'd be supportive of a male Duke freshman flying to LA on weekends to make porn films but OK. As long as it's all legal, consenting adults, who am I to criticize?

But yeah, I'm gonna. Criticize that is. In order for this young woman to make money, somebody must be willing to pay her to act in these films. The producers of these movies don't care about her tuition bills, they care about making a profit. Where, exactly, does this young woman think that profit comes from? In other words, who is the target audience for her particular branch of the entertainment industry? That's where claims of her intelligence leave me a bit mystified. Who does she think is watching these movies? Blaming the young man for not keeping it a secret? It is not his fault he saw you in a porn movie, it is not his fault that you make these movies, it is not his fault you are having to live with the consequences of your choices. Seriously, if it wasn't him, it would have been somebody else, eventually. If you're going to go on record now about owning your choices, then own them, and don't blame somebody else for those choices. And why does she get to use a fake name but Thomas Bagley doesn't? Why aren't we protecting his anonymity? What is he guilty of?

[wilson]

If a young woman at Duke wants to make porn films to fund her education, I suppose I'm OK with that. Everyone who is lauding her intelligence and creativity, well, as a woman I always ask myself, would I be OK with a man doing the same things. I'm not sure I'd be supportive of a male Duke freshman flying to LA on weekends to make porn films but OK. As long as it's all legal, consenting adults, who am I to criticize?

But yeah, I'm gonna. Criticize that is. In order for this young woman to make money, somebody must be willing to pay her to act in these films. The producers of these movies don't care about her tuition bills, they care about making a profit. Where, exactly, does this young woman think that profit comes from? In other words, who is the target audience for her particular branch of the entertainment industry? That's where claims of her intelligence leave me a bit mystified. Who does she think is watching these movies? Blaming the young man for not keeping it a secret? It is not his fault he saw you in a porn movie, it is not his fault that you make these movies, it is not his fault you are having to live with the consequences of your choices. Seriously, if it wasn't him, it would have been somebody else, eventually. If you're going to go on record now about owning your choices, then own them, and don't blame somebody else for those choices. And why does she get to use a fake name but Thomas Bagley doesn't? Why aren't we protecting his anonymity? What is he guilty of?Great points throughout this post, BD.
Honestly, my main feeling about it is relief that it hasn't caused more of a media [poop]storm. When I first read the Chronicle article, before the story grew legs with mainstream broadcast media types, I groaned inwardly at my full expectation that we'd have another lacrosse/fraternity party/entitled, out-of-touch Duke student story. Whether or not she's actually as articulate and intelligent as she's getting credit for right now, I'm pretty much ok with pundits describing her thusly.

[YmoBeThere]

Maybe she was making girl on girl porn targeted towards women?

[bedeviled]

Ugh. You guys forced me to do the dirty work to find out the answers to your questions ;)
First, though, regarding those who have stated how well-spoken she is...I watched her "casting" video, in which the casting director/videographer/talent asks her about her goals and the reasons for doing porn. My opinion is that she was definitely not well-spoken. Not only were her ideas far from well thought-out (I mean, I didn't have any decent ideas about politicizing professions and rights of workers when I was 18, so no surprise there), but she came across as underinformed and ditzy. She had vague ideals, but met the videographer's questions with giggles and hair twirling, so much so that he gave up on questions and (correctly) declared himself to have won the invisible trophy in their debate about rights and wages.


I think it ranged from like $600-$1600 if I'm recalling correctlyYes, in an article in realcleareducation.com (http://www.realcleareducation.com/articles/2014/02/25/blue_devil_the_duke_porn_star_and_college_costs_88 5.html), she essentially states that she makes about $1,000 per scene. She also tells her income goal of making $4,000 per month, presumably for tuition.


[SNIP]but if you ultimately get in, your financial need is fully metIn the article, she states that Duke offered $13,000 in aid. But, she could not get government financial aid and would have to get private student loans for the remainder. There are sources that provide the name of her father, who is a physician. If correct, it is possible that the family's overall income is the reason why she was not eligible for federal aid.


She could always become an ACC hoops ref, I guess?She consistently reports her desire to become a lawyer and states that her actions will not infringe on the Bar's moral character determination. Regarding officiating, she makes no mention of blowing the whistle.


Honestly, my main feeling about it is relief that it hasn't caused more of a media [poop]stormWell, it may pass over for Duke, but her name is most definitely forever linked to this story on the interwebs. I have no idea how that will turn out.....?maybe bad for her legal career?, but her porn notoriety is apparently increasing substantially from the publicity.

I suppose this actually looks pretty good for Duke (besides having a well-rounded student body....yes, pun intended). She had a full scholarship to Vanderbilt and turned it down to go to Duke. To underline this decision, she also points out that she never would have done porn if she didn't have to pay the Duke tuition. Take that, Vandy!!


Maybe she was making girl on girl porn targeted towards women?Nope. She does other stuff, too.

[alteran]

She could always become an ACC hoops ref, I guess?



Hey, just because you're a porn star doesn't mean you have no standards at all.

[Dukeface88]

She consistently reports her desire to become a lawyer and states that her actions will not infringe on the Bar's moral character determination.



She may well be right. People with criminal records or mental illnesses can pass character and fitness reviews provided they show they show they have reformed/are taking appropriate treatment, including actual prostitutes (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/22/us/national-briefing-south-kentucky-ex-prostitute-may-practice-law.html) (insert "lawyers are already prostitutes" joke here). Doing porn, something that isn't illegal, is probably not a disqualification unless she lies about it. Heck, if it keeps her from getting into financial trouble - something else the bar takes a look at - it may be a net benefit.

[David]

She also seems to me to be very smart so I would guess she knew it would come out eventually.

SoCal

I wondered about this too.

Thought #1: I am always amazed when very smart teenagers do very stupid things on the internet. There is often a failure to appreciate that what happens online is just as "real" and just as "permanent" as something that happens in everyday life. Even though Lauren is very smart by all accounts, she might have mistakenly thought she could separate her "online" porn life from her "real-world" life as a Duke student.

Thought #2: Whether consciously or not, Lauren wanted this to come out all along. She has made a series of decisions that could only arrive at this exact point. If this is the case, it puts a different spin on a number of the posts in this thread.

[Atlanta Duke]

First, though, regarding those who have stated how well-spoken she is...I watched her "casting" video, in which the casting director/videographer/talent asks her about her goals and the reasons for doing porn. My opinion is that she was definitely not well-spoken. Not only were her ideas far from well thought-out (I mean, I didn't have any decent ideas about politicizing professions and rights of workers when I was 18, so no surprise there), but she came across as underinformed and ditzy. She had vague ideals, but met the videographer's questions with giggles and hair twirling, so much so that he gave up on questions and (correctly) declared himself to have won the invisible trophy in their debate about rights and wages.

Thanks for checking out original rather than secondary sources. Your commitment to the tenets of rigorous academic research is commendable.;)

With regard to appearing under uninformed and ditzy in her casting video, maybe she is a student from the method school of acting and was staying in character during the interview as a commitment to her craft. :) For whatever reason, she certainly comes across as articulate in her own writings and interviews.

[bedeviled]

Your commitment to the tenets of rigorous academic research is commendable.;)
With regard to appearing under uninformed and ditzy in her casting video, maybe she is a student from the method school of acting and was staying in character during the interview as a commitment to her craft. :) For whatever reason, she certainly comes across as articulate in her own writings and interviews.
Haha, thanks. Admittedly, I was a bit embarrassed that my post to the porn thread was at 2AM, but I assure you that I was awake through the night, as evidenced by a post to another thread :D
I wasn't intending to be so thorough, but my search for articles immediately revealed her name and alias, which surprised me due to the way things had been portrayed thus far. In retrospect, I realize I shouldn't have been surprised at all, and that, as foolish as it sounds in my logical mind (and it sounds EXTREMELY foolish), I suppose I can't fault her too much for also being surprised that her occupation came to light. I did (and still do) a lot of things at 18 that were lethally dangerous, yet that youthful sense of invincibility prevented me from seeing them in a true manner. Objectively, I *knew* the things were dangerous, but, at the time, it is just impossible to appreciate the reality of that danger. It seems, to me, that choices like hers may also be vulnerable to this youthful clouding of reality.

Regarding the casting interview vs recent interviews, I had decided to let other readers consider their own speculations. Myself, I think that the difference between her early and late responses suggests that her ideals and goals are explanations of her behavior, rather than the sole drivers of her behavior. This is also evidenced in her responses about finances, scholarships, and tuition, which don't appear to add up. It shows that this is a complex scenario with serious psychological factors intermixed with the cultural ones.

[Newton_14]

Haha, thanks. Admittedly, I was a bit embarrassed that my post to the porn thread was at 2AM, but I assure you that I was awake through the night, as evidenced by a post to another thread :D
I wasn't intending to be so thorough, but my search for articles immediately revealed her name and alias, which surprised me due to the way things had been portrayed thus far. In retrospect, I realize I shouldn't have been surprised at all, and that, as foolish as it sounds in my logical mind (and it sounds EXTREMELY foolish), I suppose I can't fault her too much for also being surprised that her occupation came to light. I did (and still do) a lot of things at 18 that were lethally dangerous, yet that youthful sense of invincibility prevented me from seeing them in a true manner. Objectively, I *knew* the things were dangerous, but, at the time, it is just impossible to appreciate the reality of that danger. It seems, to me, that choices like hers may also be vulnerable to this youthful clouding of reality.

Regarding the casting interview vs recent interviews, I had decided to let other readers consider their own speculations. Myself, I think that the difference between her early and late responses suggests that her ideals and goals are explanations of her behavior, rather than the sole drivers of her behavior. This is also evidenced in her responses about finances, scholarships, and tuition, which don't appear to add up. It shows that this is a complex scenario with serious psychological factors intermixed with the cultural ones.

She has come out from under her cloak, at least with regards to her face and screen name anyway. Giving TV interviews now and set up a twitter account. Surprised her real name has not been splashed across mainstream media by now.

[Jim3k]

...and other things, all in this Alternet article. (http://www.alternet.org/school-belle-knox?paging=off)

The takeaway quote deals with multi-generational school debt.


Considering that annual tuition is around $60,000 a year, and that the median household income in the United States is only about $51,000, Duke is a high-quality school — often referred to as the Princeton of the South — and is out of reach for most Americans. According to an interview clip of Belle on the Duke Chronicle Soundcloud page, even Knox’s father is still paying for his own medical school education over twenty years after the fact, which really says it all: that we’ve entered an era of multi-generational student debt, an era in which parents and children are both simultaneously paying for the education that their keen minds entitled them to, but that their empty wallets knew was out of the question. This is what we do to our best and brightest, who make the cut at top universities by virtue of their merits (and not by their wealth): we saddle them with the burden of overwhelming debt.

Overwhelming school debt seems to be the elephant in this room. Duke and other high-cost schools need to address it.




h/t JA

[snowdenscold]

...and other things, all in this Alternet article. (http://www.alternet.org/school-belle-knox?paging=off)

The takeaway quote deals with multi-generational school debt.

Overwhelming school debt seems to be the elephant in this room. Duke and other high-cost schools need to address it.

h/t JA

My wife took out 30-year law school loans. So if we never pay those off early (though chances of that are low), we will be paying for our son's college at the same time as still paying her student loans. Kind of messed up when you think about it...

[Edouble]

My wife took out 30-year law school loans. So if we never pay those off early (though chances of that are low), we will be paying for our son's college at the same time as still paying her student loans. Kind of messed up when you think about it...

I think it's terrible that you are using this argument to guilt your son into doing porn.

[duke09hms]

First, though, regarding those who have stated how well-spoken she is...I watched her "casting" video, in which the casting director/videographer/talent asks her about her goals and the reasons for doing porn. My opinion is that she was definitely not well-spoken. Not only were her ideas far from well thought-out (I mean, I didn't have any decent ideas about politicizing professions and rights of workers when I was 18, so no surprise there), but she came across as underinformed and ditzy. She had vague ideals, but met the videographer's questions with giggles and hair twirling, so much so that he gave up on questions and (correctly) declared himself to have won the invisible trophy in their debate about rights and wages.


I'm pretty sure those "casting" videos are the first part/lead-in of porn videos ...

[BD80]

I'm pretty sure those "casting" videos are the first part/lead-in of porn videos ...

So you are saying she is "acting" ... in porn? Could this be another first for Duke?

[Jarhead]

...and other things, all in this Alternet article. (http://www.alternet.org/school-belle-knox?paging=off)

The takeaway quote deals with multi-generational school debt.

Overwhelming school debt seems to be the elephant in this room. Duke and other high-cost schools need to address it.

h/t JA

My understanding is that the amount paid annually at Duke, and several other institutions, is only paid by families that can afford to pay that much. Family income is used to determine just how much is paid with many paying nothing.

[BattierD12]

My understanding is that the amount paid annually at Duke, and several other institutions, is only paid by families that can afford to pay that much. Family income is used to determine just how much is paid with many paying nothing.

Yup, the financial aid department considers each family's ability to pay the tuition amount and appropriates the necessary amount of money for the student to feel they can attend the school without burdening their parents. I speak from first hand experience as back in Spring 2007 I was down to UF (my state school) and Duke for my college decision, and it all depended on the financial aid Duke would offer. My parent's combined income was around the 40K-60K/year threshold, and Duke ended up awarding me $30K of the $50K total costs through grants and work-study, which was HUGE for my parents. It's why I always donate to the Financial Aid funds every year with the annual fund requests. I can't imagine my life without Duke.

[Newton_14]

Yup, the financial aid department considers each family's ability to pay the tuition amount and appropriates the necessary amount of money for the student to feel they can attend the school without burdening their parents. I speak from first hand experience as back in Spring 2007 I was down to UF (my state school) and Duke for my college decision, and it all depended on the financial aid Duke would offer. My parent's combined income was around the 40K-60K/year threshold, and Duke ended up awarding me $30K of the $50K total costs through grants and work-study, which was HUGE for my parents. It's why I always donate to the Financial Aid funds every year with the annual fund requests. I can't imagine my life without Duke.

So forgive me for not understanding this better, but does this mean that you did not have to repay the $30K in grants Duke provided? I am understanding that to be yes but wanted to confirm one way or the other. Thanks

[Dukeface88]

So forgive me for not understanding this better, but does this mean that you did not have to repay the $30K in grants Duke provided? I am understanding that to be yes but wanted to confirm one way or the other. Thanks

Grants don't have to be repaid - that's what makes them grants rather than loans.

My Duke financial aid story is basically the same as D12's (down to the alternative being UF) except for occurring in 2005 instead of 2007.

[Newton_14]

Grants don't have to be repaid - that's what makes them grants rather than loans.

My Duke financial aid story is basically the same as D12's (down to the alternative being UF) except for occurring in 2005 instead of 2007.

Thanks. Seemed obvious but then not.

[duke09hms]

Starting in 2008, Duke's financial aid policy became more generous where if a family's annual income was 60k or less, everything was entirely free. All grants/scholarship, room/board included, no loans, no expected family contribution. Had to do work-study though.

Coming from a middle class family, I paid ~15k for my Duke degree.

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

Ruth Marcus has a column in the Post today that is worth a read if this topic is of any interest.

http://m.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ruth-marcus-the-duke-porn-star-students-degrading-plan-to-pay-tuition/2014/03/11/b70c96a4-a940-11e3-b61e-8051b8b52d06_story.html

[weezie]

From the article: Her father is an Army physician (yes, I know that doesn't pay as much as civilian docs) and she went to an $11K Jesuit prep school? Wonder if he's reserve or nearing retirement/Army pension and a possible entry into stateside medical practice. Plenty of military meds do this with a comfortable retirement cushion from their 20 +/- years in service.
She's got a married older brother and one other sibling, age unknown. Sure there are plenty of ways to explain and analyze her "hardships" but something isn't quite adding up.

And my opinion is that she's flat out lying about her father not being "heartbroken" when he found out about her part-time job activities. Utter self-serving horse poop.
She's def starting to get on some nerves. Sure hope she kept good records for the IRS.

[CDu]

Starting in 2008, Duke's financial aid policy became more generous where if a family's annual income was 60k or less, everything was entirely free. All grants/scholarship, room/board included, no loans, no expected family contribution. Had to do work-study though.

Coming from a middle class family, I paid ~15k for my Duke degree.

Uggh! I was about a decade off. Would have been nice to not have had any loans. As is, Duke paid about 70% of my education for me, so I only have about $16K in loans to pay. But free sure would have been nice!

[bedeviled]

something isn't quite adding upThat was my sentiment as well, and I was ready to put the topic to bed (lol). But, I would like to add one update for those who have not seen recent developments: Her real name is now being used by the media.

Other developments include:
She was bullied and threatened. The male student was bullied. A porn company published the male student's weekly porn expenses for their site. The company published his site/sexual preference (which appears to have something to do with sexual abusiveness....which they deduced because it was the site of her first jobs. Ugh). The company is using shame tactics to offer the male student a video appearance. Pictures have been posted of her family members and their house and of the male student. And so on, and so on.

All in all, no es bueno. The silver lining: even after the celebutante notoriety wears off, there should be a decently lucrative book deal, no? She might have a voice for her platform after all, and everything will have worked out exactly to plan.

[SoCalDukeFan]

Wow, one Duke student says she does porn to finance our education and another has so much money he can waste some it on porn.

As to her father's reaction, lets say your daughter made a decision that does devastate you but one that eventually you might all get over.
Say elopes with some guy you dislike intensely. So you miss her wedding and now have her married to someone you do not like. What do you tell her?
If you are too strong you could permanently damage the relationship with her. You know (hope) in the long run either he will prove you wrong or the marriage will end. In either case you don't want to damage the relationship with your own daughter. I think he was devastated but did not express it to her.

She needs to consider a career in marketing. All this publicity most her the sales of her videos.

SoCal

[cspan37421]

As is, Duke paid about 70% of my education for me,

could one make a case that those among your fellow students who paid full freight paid 70% of your education? It's not like the endowment is being drawn down for financial aid.

[cspan37421]

A porn company published the male student's weekly porn expenses for their site. The company published his site/sexual preference (which appears to have something to do with sexual abusiveness....which they deduced because it was the site of her first jobs. Ugh). The company is using shame tactics to offer the male student a video appearance.

Wow - I wonder if that violates their stated policy? Seems like the male student could have a huge lawsuit on his hands if they tout a policy of confidentiality to their customers, etc.

[duke79]

could one make a case that those among your fellow students who paid full freight paid 70% of your education? It's not like the endowment is being drawn down for financial aid.

Not sure if you're being facetious here, but Duke does use at least part of their annual "draw" from the endowment (now roughly around $6 billion) specifically for financial aid to both undergrads and grad students. I looked at the latest 2012/2013 annual report for the numbers. I was surprised at how little tuition (what the university calls "net tuition" - after accounting for the amount of financial aid that it gives out each year) contributes to the overall annual operating budget of the university (not including the Duke Hospital which is run as a separate entity apart from the university). According to the annual report, net tuition accounts for about 17% of the annual operating budget. This is almost exactly the same amount that is currently pulled out of the endowment to support the university operations. Duke actually withdraws a larger percentage out of the endowment for financial aid (5.75%) than for other operating needs (4.8%).

There is no doubt that Duke, like almost every other college and university in this country, uses a "Robin Hood" approach to how they price tuition, room and board. They charge the affluent and rich (who can presumably afford to pay more) more and use those extra funds to offset the financial aid provided to other students. If no one received any type of financial aid, I'm guessing Duke could charge maybe $35,000 to $40,000 for tuition, room and board and raise the same amount of tuition money that they do now.

[orrnot]

could one make a case that those among your fellow students who paid full freight paid 70% of your education? It's not like the endowment is being drawn down for financial aid.

My understanding is that those who pay the full tuition still don't pay the "full freight," that the cost of a Duke education goes well beyond the total un-discounted tuition and fees. So, "full freight" really just means lesser discount.

My comment is based on an unsupported assertion, I realize, and while I think I could find examples of its being asserted it would be more challenging to fully support the assertion. I think it's a commonplace at most colleges and universities in this country. I believe it, but I suspect the accounting can be dissected and disputed, perhaps argued endlessly. I'd be interested in the comments of those more knowledgeable.

[Bluedog]

My understanding is that those who pay the full tuition still don't pay the "full freight," that the cost of a Duke education goes well beyond the total un-discounted tuition and fees. So, "full freight" really just means lesser discount.

My comment is based on an unsupported assertion, I realize, and while I think I could find examples of its being asserted it would be more challenging to fully support the assertion. I think it's a commonplace at most colleges and universities in this country. I believe it, but I suspect the accounting can be dissected and disputed, perhaps argued endlessly. I'd be interested in the comments of those more knowledgeable.

We had a thread about this already with NPR releasing a piece about Duke:
http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?33182-Money-well-spent-for-an-education-Duke
http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014/02/14/277015271/duke-60-000-a-year-for-college-is-actually-a-discount

From that link, Duke claims it spends $90k per student, but 24% of that is for financial aid. So, for a student paying "sticker price," Duke claims that ~$68k is spent on that student (excluding the amount taken for financial aid). As you said, some people question the accounting/claim, but Duke is certainly not alone in this regard and its tuition is in line with peer institutions.

[Jim3k]

Coming back to school seems like a good idea. Dancing at a strip club...not so much. Still...her choice.

Anyway--New York News with pics and her real name (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/belle-knox-duke-university-porn-star-returning-campus-due-death-threats-article-1.1726730). Yeah, the pics are safe to view.

[SmartDevil]

She will most likely be a rather distant memory, a minor footnote, in the mind of the public and her industry in something like 15-24 more months. She'll likely have made less money during that time than she had anticipated, and even less will have gone for "tuition" than she thought would. Her offers for "roles" by that time will be fewer and less well-compensated.

Whatever internal baggage she had before commencing her adventures (and contributing to her decision to pursue them) will almost surely be significantly larger and more burdensome.

I've known women who have fallen into this trap before and, as a consequence, I've learned quite a bit about it from them and from other sources. I realize I'm generalizing here but there's often a sound basis for generalizations. Still, I acknowledge she might possibly be an exception of some sort. Maybe she'll become a feminist leader successfully advocating female empowerment. And leading a happy life. I hope so but don't think it is a good bet.

I hope she can hang on and get her degree whether at Duke or elsewhere. And I hope the Duke community will be supportive of her as a person.

[SoCalDukeFan]

She will most likely be a rather distant memory, a minor footnote, in the mind of the public and her industry in something like 15-24 more months. She'll likely have made less money during that time than she had anticipated, and even less will have gone for "tuition" than she thought would. Her offers for "roles" by that time will be fewer and less well-compensated.

Whatever internal baggage she had before commencing her adventures (and contributing to her decision to pursue them) will almost surely be significantly larger and more burdensome.

I've known women who have fallen into this trap before and, as a consequence, I've learned quite a bit about it from them and from other sources. I realize I'm generalizing here but there's often a sound basis for generalizations. Still, I acknowledge she might possibly be an exception of some sort. Maybe she'll become a feminist leader successfully advocating female empowerment. And leading a happy life. I hope so but don't think it is a good bet.

I hope she can hang on and get her degree whether at Duke or elsewhere. And I hope the Duke community will be supportive of her as a person.

I happened to see her CNN interview (fully clothed). She seems like a bright young woman. As an adult for me she can do about anything she wants with other consenting adults and in front of adult audiences or on media for adults. I really do not care.

However I was initially pissed off that she blamed the Duke male who outed her for ruining her life. While he should have kept his promise of secrecy, she put herself into this situation when she chose to make porn videos.

Now she is using Duke for publicity and sales. While it might be good marketing, it is demeaning in some respect to Duke and the Duke community. She wants her family left out, why not leave Duke out. Someone showed me a video interview where she, also fully clothed, promises some kind of personal sex toy for each member of the bball team if we win the NC. She also chickened out in asking Jabari for a picture with him. I am glad she chickened out, that would have been an Internet sensation.

While I hope no one at Duke intentionally physically harms her, I also see no reason to support her as long as she is using Duke to further her "career."

SoCal

[SmartDevil]

SoCal,
I don't disagree with anything you wrote.
I think she's an opportunist. And I think she is delighting in the spotlight (for now). She's hurting Duke. And in the long run hurting herself.
But she's also a victim. LIkely victimized emotionally and perhaps physically in the past. And certainly being victimized and exploited by others now (the producers, etc.) even if she invited and freely consented to it.

[Olympic Fan]

I think "Belle Knox" is a marketing genius. She's parlayed the story over the "Poor coed working her way through college" into national publicity. She's not only appeared on CNN, but she was a recent guest of The View -- No, I don't watch the View, but I do watch The Soup, which featured a clip from Belle's visit to The View ... Belle says she's been watching porn since she was 12 years old and Barbara Walters asked, "did you watch it with your parents?" That got a canned laugh from the fake Soup audience.

I suspect the exposure has turned Knox from a starlet working for scale into a porn headliner -- with a skyrocketing salary. She has a line of adult toys coming out in the next few months. She was marketing them in an interview talking about how if Duke's basketball team won it all, she would give all he players an item from her new porn line: "A pocket p***y."

http://www.tmz.com/2014/03/19/belle-knox-duke-porn-star-video/

Would that have been an NCAA violation?

I suspect that SoCalDukeFan is right that her career will be brief ... but I also suspect that she will make a LOT of money before her career burns out.

[blazindw]

Would that have been an NCAA violation?

It absolutely would have been. At the very least, they would have to pay retail value for it.

[throatybeard]

Starting in 2008, Duke's financial aid policy became more generous where if a family's annual income was 60k or less, everything was entirely free. All grants/scholarship, room/board included, no loans, no expected family contribution. Had to do work-study though.

Coming from a middle class family, I paid ~15k for my Duke degree.

Man, I wish I'd been around for that. My parents were making in the $40K area when I was a Ugrad, and we had to pay full ride because my grandfather left me a lump sum.

Said lump ($120K, or three years of my parents' salary) sum barely paid for four years in the 1990s. I'm not complaining--I'm very lucky, but I know a lot of people who are "richer" than my family, and they were on financial aid.

[Bostondevil]

I don't wish the young woman ill, but I really wish that Duke hadn't accepted her. I wish she was some other campus's headache right now.

[duke79]

I don't wish the young woman ill, but I really wish that Duke hadn't accepted her. I wish she was some other campus's headache right now.

Yea, no doubt a lot of the publicity she has gotten is because she is a Duke student. (and it would be the same if she were a student at Stanford, Yale, Northwestern, etc). I'm sure if she were a student at a community college in California, there would not be a frenzy of news about her porn career. Whether or not this "story" reflects poorly on Duke is probably open to debate. I certainly don't think this is the sort of publicity the university wants but my guess is that it will pass fairly quickly and life will go on for Duke.

[Edouble]

I think "Belle Knox" is a marketing genius. She's parlayed the story over the "Poor coed working her way through college" into national publicity. She's not only appeared on CNN, but she was a recent guest of The View -- No, I don't watch the View, but I do watch The Soup, which featured a clip from Belle's visit to The View ... Belle says she's been watching porn since she was 12 years old and Barbara Walters asked, "did you watch it with your parents?" That got a canned laugh from the fake Soup audience.

I suspect the exposure has turned Knox from a starlet working for scale into a porn headliner -- with a skyrocketing salary. She has a line of adult toys coming out in the next few months. She was marketing them in an interview talking about how if Duke's basketball team won it all, she would give all he players an item from her new porn line: "A pocket p***y."

http://www.tmz.com/2014/03/19/belle-knox-duke-porn-star-video/

Would that have been an NCAA violation?

I suspect that SoCalDukeFan is right that her career will be brief ... but I also suspect that she will make a LOT of money before her career burns out.

Well she doesn't know much about basketball. If you win the national championship, you get all the real deal you can handle, I am pretty sure.

[Edouble]

Yea, no doubt a lot of the publicity she has gotten is because she is a Duke student. (and it would be the same if she were a student at Stanford, Yale, Northwestern, etc). I'm sure if she were a student at a community college in California, there would not be a frenzy of news about her porn career. Whether or not this "story" reflects poorly on Duke is probably open to debate. I certainly don't think this is the sort of publicity the university wants but my guess is that it will pass fairly quickly and life will go on for Duke.

Nah. I think Duke takes the cake. We are the school that had the Lax scandal and the sex power points. The cover of Rolling Stone magazine said "Sex at Duke". I think we're at the top of the mountain for academia sex publicity.

[weezie]

We're too sexy for our fill in the blank!

:cool:

[duke79]

Nah. I think Duke takes the cake. We are the school that had the Lax scandal and the sex power points. The cover of Rolling Stone magazine said "Sex at Duke". I think we're at the top of the mountain for academia sex publicity.

LOL. Yea, you may be right. This story is just further fodder for the Duke haters of the world.

[alteran]

LOL. Yea, you may be right. This story is just further fodder for the Duke haters of the world.

It says a lot about Duke hate that being known as "the sex school" will just make Duke more unpopular.

[Mike Corey]

Well she doesn't know much about basketball. If you win the national championship, you get all the real deal you can handle, I am pretty sure.

To be fair, I suspect that even if Duke had gone 0-36 this year, the guys would not have had a hard time gathering the attraction of the campus.

(As a segue, I never understood how this wasn't more frequently true of female athletes. But that's a conversation for another thread.)

[Reilly]

... even if Duke had gone 0-36 this year, the guys would not have had a hard time gathering the attraction of the campus ...

I'm not so sure. Maybe times have changed from the bad old days. I really wish I had printed out and kept an interview of Grant Hill's that I read one time ... I've never been able to find it online since, but distinctly remember reading it, as does a friend of mine (and I was probably directed to it by DBR). Anyway, in the interview, Grant Hill -- you know, he of 3 national championship games in 4 years and Sports Illustrated covers, he of impeccable manners and good breeding and authenticity and above average piano skills, he who would go on to marry a gorgeous recording artist and now star on TV himself; yes, that Grant Hill -- talked about being at Crazy Zack's at North Myrtle for the post-academic-year Duke beach week, and trying to get up the nerve to talk to a gal who all the players on the team had noticed throughout the year, and he eventually did, but she shot him down in no time. Grant Hill. That comports with other stories I've heard or recall involving mere mortals. Why I find the powerpoint gal and now porn star gal stories as painting the public image of Duke sort of funny in a way.

[Mike Corey]

I'm not so sure. Maybe times have changed from the bad old days. I really wish I had printed out and kept an interview of Grant Hill's that I read one time ... I've never been able to find it online since, but distinctly remember reading it, as does a friend of mine (and I was probably directed to it by DBR). Anyway, in the interview, Grant Hill -- you know, he of 3 national championship games in 4 years and Sports Illustrated covers, he of impeccable manners and good breeding and authenticity and above average piano skills, he who would go on to marry a gorgeous recording artist and now star on TV himself; yes, that Grant Hill -- talked about being at Crazy Zack's at North Myrtle for the post-academic-year Duke beach week, and trying to get up the nerve to talk to a gal who all the players on the team had noticed throughout the year, and he eventually did, but she shot him down in no time. Grant Hill. That comports with other stories I've heard or recall involving mere mortals. Why I find the powerpoint gal and now porn star gal stories as painting the public image of Duke sort of funny in a way.

Respectfully, you and I are making different points. I've no doubt there were people immune from the allure of being with a Duke basketball player. But I'd suggest that just because there were some immune or uninterested, a point never arrived when all were.

[Olympic Fan]

Duke porn star Miriam Weeks (aka Belle Knox) has written a guest column in Time Magazine.

http://time.com/author/miriam-weeks/

Basically, she complains about the extremely high cost of college. She complains that her financial aid (which paid $13,000 of her $60,000) cost last year was cut by Duke. She'll have to come up with $62,000 to pay for her sophomore year. Ms. Weeks vows to continue at Duke -- and to continue to pay her bills by working in porn.

BTW: I thought it was an extremely well-written and professional column (whether you agree with her points or not). Don't know how much it was edited (or even ghost-written), but the finished product is Duke-quality work. Personally, I become more and more impressed by Ms. Weeks are her ability to manipulate the media to bolster her status in the porn world. She's not just another pretty young girl working in porn -- she's the "Duke student" working in porn and the subject of countless articles in Time, Rolling Stone, the NY Times ... plus an appearance on the The View..

[CameronBornAndBred]

Duke porn star Miriam Weeks (aka Belle Knox) has written a guest column in Time Magazine.

http://time.com/author/miriam-weeks/

Basically, she complains about the extremely high cost of college. She complains that her financial aid (which paid $13,000 of her $60,000) cost last year was cut by Duke. She'll have to come up with $62,000 to pay for her sophomore year. Ms. Weeks vows to continue at Duke -- and to continue to pay her bills by working in porn.

BTW: I thought it was an extremely well-written and professional column (whether you agree with her points or not). Don't know how much it was edited (or even ghost-written), but the finished product is Duke-quality work. Personally, I become more and more impressed by Ms. Weeks are her ability to manipulate the media to bolster her status in the porn world. She's not just another pretty young girl working in porn -- she's the "Duke student" working in porn and the subject of countless articles in Time, Rolling Stone, the NY Times ... plus an appearance on the The View..

Excellent quote here...

This year, even after student aid, I faced a $47,000 bill to attend Duke University. My turn to porn to close the gap was so famous, in part, due to my reasoning. Faced with either a degree from a less prestigious school or decades of crushing debt, a few hours of work on a porn set revealed itself to be the best way to avoid getting screwed.

[Bostondevil]

I'm not quite as impressed.

Does she make some good points? Yes. Is college tuition increasing at unsustainable rates? Of course. Will there be a breaking point? Yep. Do I think it's coming soon? Again, yes.

But the tone of the article is one giant whine. I can't help but believe that financially, she is going to be fine. I suspect TIME magazine paid her for the column, for example. Duke is the largest employer in Durham Country - has been for what feels like forever. Could administrative bloat be lessened? Yes, but it would mean firing a bunch of people with middle class jobs. Most of them probably are not young enough to supplement their incomes by doing porn on the side. Large scale firing of people by Duke University would hurt the local economy.

Is President Brodhead's $1 million salary obscene? Hell no. I view him as the CEO of Duke University - his salary is too low! (He should probably make as much money as Coach K. OK, maybe not Brodhead - but the next one maybe should. Gotta pay top money for top talent.)

Financial aid is basically directly linked to the size of a university's endowment. Duke's financial aid pool is less than some other schools because their endowment is smaller. Ms. Weeks should transfer to Harvard - they have a much bigger endowment (although Duke's Chapel is bigger).

But if it's her age that allows her to receive maximum compensation for her chosen part-time job - why not take a couple of years off, work full-time, and earn enough money to finish her degree without debt? Or, if she really would rather qualify for financial aid, take a less lucrative part-time job.

I do agree with her points that not everybody who currently goes to college should be there. We have made having a college education a bare minimum for many jobs that probably don't require them. But I find it disingenuous to blame that fact on "the government". Find me a Fortune 500 company that hires people without college degrees for entry level positions. Heck, my undergraduate part-time job was working as a bank teller. That job still exists but find me a bank that hires tellers without college degrees anymore.

She also doesn't mention that one of the big reasons for increased demand at American universities is the huge increase in international student applications over the last 20 years. I suspect she doesn't major in economics - supply has not gone up even though demand has (although, I would argue that many schools that used to be considered second tier are no longer quite so second tier). It's not the government's fault or even the universities for charging what the market will bear even if she as an individual feels unfairly treated. That the government supplies student loans in the hopes of giving everyone a fair shake at attaining a middle class life is not a bad thing. How we supply those loans and what financial burdens we place on our young people probably needs an overhaul. None of that means we should feel sorry for a young woman who makes too much money in the adult film industry to get money from Duke to attend school. And that is what she is asking us to do.

[bjornolf]

None of that means we should feel sorry for a young woman who makes too much money in the adult film industry to get money from Duke to attend school. And that is what she is asking us to do.

I didn't get the feeling she wanted us to be sorry for her. I just thought she was trying to justify her actions.

[Bostondevil]

I didn't get the feeling she wanted us to be sorry for her. I just thought she was trying to justify her actions.

Ok, fair enough.

But she did say this "And I will pay this all on my own; the financial aid office does not care that I am legally financially independent. They view it as my parent’s responsibility to foot the bill." That's true for every single student at Duke - not just her. Heck, it's true of every college student at every university. She would be denied financial aid regardless of where she went to school. It clearly states in the financial aid application that willingness to pay is not considered. If your parents are divorced and your dad hasn't spoken to your mom for 15 years, both incomes still count even if you have no chance of getting both parents to help with the costs. It's not just her. It might not be fair but if you took those restrictions away, it would be abused. Easily. Every kid would start declaring themselves financially independent as soon as they were accepted to college even the ones who don't have significant income. Well, maybe not every kid, there are still ethical people in the world - who would then be forced to subsidize the unethical. I don't think Ms. Weeks in unethical, but she is not being unfairly treated by the system as it now stands. And I think she thinks she is.

[Bostondevil]

She also says "Government must stop the flow of money to schools in order to get tuition rates under control again. That means being honest about the fact that not every child should go to college. Only 59% of full-time, first-time undergraduate students who began their pursuit of a bachelor’s degree at a 4-year degree-granting institution graduate in four years. That also means making students who can’t afford tuition out of pocket find funding in the private market, where lenders are too judicious to lend someone $150,000 to get a BA in underwater basketweaving."

I defy her to find a college that offers such a degree.

To prove her point that college tuition is too expensive I suspect a good portion of the 59% drop out for financial reasons and not academic ones. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the feeling from the quote that Ms. Weeks thinks otherwise. Am I wrong? Isn't she asking for college tuition to come down by decreasing demand? Isn't she saying that she shouldn't be penalized for being one of the smart ones and all these kids who don't have her level of talent should get out of the way because it's costing her too much money? Please point out to me the flaws in my reasoning because I've just made myself rather angry over the self-entitlement I see on display here.

[weezie]

Financial aid is basically directly linked to the size of a university's endowment. Duke's financial aid pool is less than some other schools because their endowment is smaller. Ms. Weeks should transfer to Harvard - they have a much bigger endowment (although Duke's Chapel is bigger).


Touche BD. But, my lame joking aside, why doesn't she transfer to Harvard? She began this whole whoopdedo by complaining about men treat women at Duke. Why not just splitsville and go hang out with her intellectual equals? Surely she's so incredibly and impressively intelligent that they'd love to have her. Plus, better direct flights to LAX out of BOS.

It might also ease the anguish that her parents have been subjected to during this sad little stink. "My daughter the Harvard Porn Star!"

[Bluedog]

She got offered a full ride to Vanderbilt and could have gone there for free. Her dad is a successful doctor who apparently just doesn't want to pay for her college. I'm fine with her decision as an adult to do what she wants to do, but I don't feel so bad for her...She certainly is using her Duke pedigree masterfully to advance her porn career, though - I'm sure her price per scene has skyrocketed since her name has gone public.

[Channing]

It's not the government's fault or even the universities for charging what the market will bear even if she as an individual feels unfairly treated. That the government supplies student loans in the hopes of giving everyone a fair shake at attaining a middle class life is not a bad thing. How we supply those loans and what financial burdens we place on our young people probably needs an overhaul.

Hopefully without wading too deeply into PPB (and these are all just my opinions) ... my biggest gripe with student loans is as italicized above. The market doesn't and won't bear tuition rates at their current levels. The only reason they are sustainable is because of the ability to take out student loans and go absolutely insanely in debt as an 18 year old. While I can potentially see the value of ~$150/200k in debt from Duke if one graduates with a finance degree and heads to Wall St., the same can't be said for someone who graduates with a music degree to go and become a teacher. Becoming a teacher is incredibly noble, but also leads to a career with virtually no capacity to repay that debt (absent third party assistance). The lack of lending standards on student loans, and the lack of self-awareness to be able to say the finance major should be able to take out more debt than the english lit major, is causing the compounding effect of crushing student debt. Is that fair? Probably not. Is it realistic? Absolutely. Of the three parties involved with student lending transactions - the student, the creditor, and the school, only the school is always happy at the end of the day because they go their money. They charged someone $60k/yr.

[YmoBeThere]

Of the three parties involved with student lending transactions - the student, the creditor, and the school, only the school is always happy at the end of the day because they go their money. They charged someone $60k/yr.

As the credit is not dischargeable even in bankruptcy, there are very few situations where the creditor is all that upset.

[moonpie23]

the rub, (npi) is WHICH part time job she chose to earn money to abate her debt. This thread would be miniscule, in comparison, were she to be a musician, software developer, publisher, actor or competitive fisherman.......since it's "vice", it's a big story.

[Channing]

As the credit is not dischargeable even in bankruptcy, there are very few situations where the creditor is all that upset.

Unless the debtor can't make payments and creditor needs to extend the period or waste money on collection procedures.

[DukieInKansas]

Hopefully without wading too deeply into PPB (and these are all just my opinions) ... my biggest gripe with student loans is as italicized above. The market doesn't and won't bear tuition rates at their current levels. The only reason they are sustainable is because of the ability to take out student loans and go absolutely insanely in debt as an 18 year old. While I can potentially see the value of ~$150/200k in debt from Duke if one graduates with a finance degree and heads to Wall St., the same can't be said for someone who graduates with a music degree to go and become a teacher. Becoming a teacher is incredibly noble, but also leads to a career with virtually no capacity to repay that debt (absent third party assistance). The lack of lending standards on student loans, and the lack of self-awareness to be able to say the finance major should be able to take out more debt than the english lit major, is causing the compounding effect of crushing student debt. Is that fair? Probably not. Is it realistic? Absolutely. Of the three parties involved with student lending transactions - the student, the creditor, and the school, only the school is always happy at the end of the day because they go their money. They charged someone $60k/yr.

I will give Virginia Tech some credit - a young lady I know that really wanted to go there sat down with someone in admissions or finance and they helped her reach the conclusion that $100K of debt for undergrad and then needing grad school in her discipline wasn't reasonable. As hard as it was for her, she opted to go somewhere close to home for less money and lower living expenses. Made me wish I could win the lottery and pay her way.

[Bostondevil]

Hopefully without wading too deeply into PPB (and these are all just my opinions) ... my biggest gripe with student loans is as italicized above. The market doesn't and won't bear tuition rates at their current levels. The only reason they are sustainable is because of the ability to take out student loans and go absolutely insanely in debt as an 18 year old. While I can potentially see the value of ~$150/200k in debt from Duke if one graduates with a finance degree and heads to Wall St., the same can't be said for someone who graduates with a music degree to go and become a teacher. Becoming a teacher is incredibly noble, but also leads to a career with virtually no capacity to repay that debt (absent third party assistance). The lack of lending standards on student loans, and the lack of self-awareness to be able to say the finance major should be able to take out more debt than the english lit major, is causing the compounding effect of crushing student debt. Is that fair? Probably not. Is it realistic? Absolutely. Of the three parties involved with student lending transactions - the student, the creditor, and the school, only the school is always happy at the end of the day because they go their money. They charged someone $60k/yr.

The average student loan debt for Duke students at graduation is just over $20,000, slightly below the national average in 2011 (the last year I found data). Northwestern caps student loan debt at $23,000 as a comparison. I looked that up when somebody defending the football players union compared their on campus earning options to those of someone on an English scholarship! Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! English scholarship. Oh, that's funny. I still haven't stopped laughing. English scholarship.

From what I have read about the current student loan crisis, the majority of the problem comes from for profit universities. Would I like to see all students able to graduate without debt? Absolutely. Do I think $20,000 is crushing debt? It can be and it might lead some people to choose different a different career path but I also do not think it is crushing debt for the average Duke student. Whether or not a finance major should be able to take out more debt than an English Major is a philosophical question that perhaps should be debated. (I'll argue that the answer is no.) But back to our issue of blaming the government for student loan debt, I will admit that government loans play a part, but when the majority of the problem comes from for profit universities, I will also argue that is where we should begin with student loan reform. I will modify my original statement (and still stand by it) that it is not the government's fault that Duke's tuition is as high as it is. They charge what the market will bear. A Duke education is a limited resource. Demand far exceeds supply. The price is high.

[Channing]

Out of curiosity, is that ~20k in debt per student, or is it that the average student who takes out debt lands up with ~20k. I know there is a significant population at Duke that pays full tuition, and that can severely skew the numbers. If Duke students are really graduating with just 20k in debt, good for Duke and I stand corrected.

[Bluedog]

Out of curiosity, is that ~20k in debt per student, or is it that the average student who takes out debt lands up with ~20k. I know there is a significant population at Duke that pays full tuition, and that can severely skew the numbers. If Duke students are really graduating with just 20k in debt, good for Duke and I stand corrected.

Duke caps the loans one can take out at $5k/year. (Obviously, people can theoretically choose to take out private loans if they wish - I personally didn't know anybody that did that for undergrad.) Here is the Distribution of Net Tuition Paid by Duke Students for the 2012-13 Academic Year:

4194
http://dukemagazine.duke.edu/article/what-price-college

[JasonEvans]

Duke caps the loans one can take out at $5k/year. (Obviously, people can theoretically choose to take out private loans if they wish - I personally didn't know anybody that did that for undergrad.) Here is the Distribution of Net Tuition Paid by Duke Students for the 2012-13 Academic Year:

4194
http://dukemagazine.duke.edu/article/what-price-college

I am not blaming you, but the scale on that chart make it utterly useless. The distance between 1 and 10 is the same as between 10 and 100 and between 100 and 1000. Charts must have proper scale for us to understand them.

Here is how that chart should look (ignore the lack of detail on the x-axis): 4195

In reality, it shows that an overwhelming number of Duke students pay full tuition. Use that for whatever it is worth in your discussion.

-Jason "you may now return to your conversation about student loans... and not about porn :( " Evans

[Bluedog]

I am not blaming you, but the scale on that chart make it utterly useless. The distance between 1 and 10 is the same as between 10 and 100 and between 100 and 1000. Charts must have proper scale for us to understand them.

Here is how that chart should look (ignore the lack of detail on the x-axis): 4195

In reality, it shows that an overwhelming number of Duke students pay full tuition. Use that for whatever it is worth in your discussion.

-Jason "you may now return to your conversation about student loans... and not about porn :( " Evans

haha, agreed. The scale is pretty stupid. It obviously was an attempt to make everything look "even." However, I wouldn't say "an overwhelming number of Duke students pay full tuition" unless you consider 55% overwhelming. Your chart looks better, but does make it seem like an overwhelming majority pay full fare, which is probably why the author of that article didn't use a linear scale in that way. 75% of students either pay full fare or nothing at all...What they really should have done is to make the scale linear instead of logarithmic, and have only 3 buckets: $0, $1-$42.3k, and Full Tuition.

[JasonEvans]

haha, agreed. The scale is pretty stupid. It obviously was an attempt to make everything look "even." However, I wouldn't say "an overwhelming number of Duke students pay full tuition" unless you consider 55% overwhelming. Your chart looks better, but does make it seem like an overwhelming majority pay full fare, which is probably why the author of that article didn't use a linear scale in that way. 75% of students either pay full fare or nothing at all...What they really should have done is to make the scale linear instead of logarithmic, and have only 3 buckets: $0, $1-$42.3k, and Full Tuition.

Actually, we should probably be even smarter than that about it. I mean, someone paying $500 isn't really all that different from someone paying nothing, are they? There is no reason to put someone paying $2000 and someone paying $40,000 in the same pool as those are very, very different financial situations. I'd sort into the following buckets.


Less than $1000 (includes folks paying zero, on a full ride -- these are people who have almost no money to pay for college)
$1000 - $10,000 (the cost of a down payment on a car... depending on what type of car it is)
$10,000 - $30,000 (the cost of a down payment on a modest house)
$30,000 - full tuition (these are people who clearly have saved a lot for college or who make a good income that affords them the ability to pay a sizable sum)

Btu that is just my suggestion -- others could come up with something better, I am sure. The main point, in addition to making the chart look more accurate, was that a pretty hefty percentage of Duke students come from a situation where the school thinks the family can afford to spend tens of thousands of dollars a year on college -- which means the family is quite well off compared to the vast majority of society.

-Jason "now, can we please get back to talking about porn?" Evans

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Actually, we should probably be even smarter than that about it. I mean, someone paying $500 isn't really all that different from someone paying nothing, are they? There is no reason to put someone paying $2000 and someone paying $40,000 in the same pool as those are very, very different financial situations. I'd sort into the following buckets.
Less than $1000 (includes folks paying zero, on a full ride -- these are people who have almost no money to pay for college)
$1000 - $10,000 (the cost of a down payment on a car... depending on what type of car it is)
$10,000 - $30,000 (the cost of a down payment on a modest house)
$30,000 - full tuition (these are people who clearly have saved a lot for college or who make a good income that affords them the ability to pay a sizable sum)

Btu that is just my suggestion -- others could come up with something better, I am sure. The main point, in addition to making the chart look more accurate, was that a pretty hefty percentage of Duke students come from a situation where the school thinks the family can afford to spend tens of thousands of dollars a year on college -- which means the family is quite well off compared to the vast majority of society.

-Jason "now, can we please get back to talking about porn?" Evans
Wouldn't some of the people in the lower tuition categories be on academic or even athletic scholarship? So, they don't necessarily have "no money to pay for college." I knew a kid who was a BN Duke and had 75% of tuition paid but I'm certain could have paid full tuition had his family needed to do so.

[johnb]

Student loans are akin to the old housing crisis. Loans are given without paying adequate attention to the quality of the goods the students are buying (i.e., the quality of the education). I'm not worried about the Duke student who borrows $20K (though would love it if Duke could emulate Harvard and Princeton's ability to not require any loans from students with low and moderately low family incomes). The real problem are the schools that are in their own financial/academic trouble and while they may be well-meaning, are essentially ripping off their students.

As outlined here, the biggest problem is not absolute debt but rather the inability to pay it back, generally because they left school without a degree (http://www.forbes.com/sites/akelly/2014/06/30/whos-struggling-to-pay-back-their-student-loans-hint-its-not-who-you-think/)

15% of borrowers do default within 3 years, with rates highest at for-profit colleges (46%). http://www.ticas.org/files/pub/CDR_2013_NR.pdf.

One group of schools ( a consortium of historically black colleges) had very high rates but lowered the rates through a focused effort: http://chronicle.com/article/6-Historically-Black-Colleges/64331/

oh, to bring it back to porn:in the film XXX, an HBO documentary on the porn industry, one of the stars said, "it's not like the decision was between porn and Harvard, it was generally between porn and a double wide trailer, a husband with a wife beater t-shirt, and a bunch of kids. For many of us, this is a better life." Or something to that effect, it's been a while since I saw it. So, in that respect, the Duke student is a trendsetter (but only if you can say that Duke is the Harvard of the porn industry)

[Bluedog]

Student loans are akin to the old housing crisis. Loans are given without paying adequate attention to the quality of the goods the students are buying (i.e., the quality of the education). I'm not worried about the Duke student who borrows $20K (though would love it if Duke could emulate Harvard and Princeton's ability to not require any loans from students with low and moderately low family incomes).

Duke eliminated loans completely for families making less than $40,000 back in 2007. (The 40th percentile of household income in the United States is $38k as of 2011.) They also reduced the loan amounts for families making less than $100,000. But, yes, Duke is not at the Harvard or Princeton level of requiring no loans for anybody who qualifies for financial aid (and those in the highest 10% of income in the U.S. can still qualify for financial aid at Harvard.)

[Bostondevil]

Duke eliminated loans completely for families making less than $40,000 back in 2007. (The 40th percentile of household income in the United States is $38k as of 2011.) They also reduced the loan amounts for families making less than $100,000. But, yes, Duke is not at the Harvard or Princeton level of requiring no loans for anybody who qualifies for financial aid (and those in the highest 10% of income in the U.S. can still qualify for financial aid at Harvard.)

That's what a bigger endowment gets you.

Harvard's tuition is on a sliding scale with only those students whose family income is over, I think, $350,000, paying the full amount. Duke doesn't have the endowment to do that for its students. I'll be optimistic and add - yet. But even Harvard counts family income regardless of willingness to pay.

[Bostondevil]

Harvard also gives no athletic scholarships, so, presumably that money is spread around the student body as a whole.

[flyingdutchdevil]

That's what a bigger endowment gets you.

Harvard's tuition is on a sliding scale with only those students whose family income is over, I think, $350,000, paying the full amount. Duke doesn't have the endowment to do that for its students. I'll be optimistic and add - yet. But even Harvard counts family income regardless of willingness to pay.

Interesting use of terminology in a thread beginning with, "Duke Porn Star..." ;)

[Bostondevil]

Interesting use of terminology in a thread beginning with, "Duke Porn Star..." ;)

Pun intended.

See my earlier post.

[YmoBeThere]

oh, to bring it back to porn:in the film XXX, an HBO documentary on the porn industry, one of the stars said, "it's not like the decision was between porn and Harvard, it was generally between porn and a double wide trailer, a husband with a wife beater t-shirt, and a bunch of kids. For many of us, this is a better life." Or something to that effect, it's been a while since I saw it. So, in that respect, the Duke student is a trendsetter (but only if you can say that Duke is the Harvard of the porn industry)

Okay, I'm going to stick up for the tank top t-shirt...I wear them daily and have not participated in the activity they are being associated with.

[YmoBeThere]

See my earlier post.

The one about the English scholarship?

[Bostondevil]

The one about the English scholarship?

;) Yes.

Also the one about the Chapel.

[throatybeard]

Our fellow Blue Devil's life is the subject of a new movie on Lifetime. I say good for her. I have a ton of respect for her, taking all that heat over this.

http://www.newsobserver.com/entertainment/tv/warm-tv-blog/article131917809.html

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Our fellow Blue Devil's life is the subject of a new movie on Lifetime. I say good for her. I have a ton of respect for her, taking all that heat over this.

http://www.newsobserver.com/entertainment/tv/warm-tv-blog/article131917809.html

Wow, dug deep into the archives for that one. And the posting member too! Welcome back.

[YmoBeThere]

Wow, dug deep into the archives for that one. And the posting member too! Welcome back.
Yes, we were all much younger then.

[bjornolf]

Wow, death threats? If that's true, I find it very sad.

[davekay1971]

Wow, death threats? If that's true, I find it very sad.

Now if I turned to doing porn to pay off debts, the death threats would be completely understandable. But that would have more to do with the deep psychological wounds I would inflict on anyone unfortunate enough to see my pale 45 year old posterior (et al) exposed on camera.

As Colonel Kurtz might say, "The horror...the horror."

[duke79]

Now if I turned to doing porn to pay off debts, the death threats would be completely understandable. But that would have more to do with the deep psychological wounds I would inflict on anyone unfortunate enough to see my pale 45 year old posterior (et al) exposed on camera.

As Colonel Kurtz might say, "The horror...the horror."

LOL, yea, I would say ... Ditto for me too !

[weezie]

In fact, I'm frightened just by your post. :eek:

[BD80]

In fact, I'm frightened just by your post. :eek:

let's not turn this into a competition of double entendres

[weezie]

let's not turn this into a competition of double entendres


Ugh, shame on you.