PDA

View Full Version : Tyler Thornton's amazing ACC Conference numbers



stickdog
02-24-2014, 05:50 PM
link (http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13932821098826&key=bbb516d91daee20498798694a42dd559&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fbluedevilsreigncom.proboards.com% 2Fthread%2F6649%2Ftyler-thornton-acc-conference-play&v=1&libId=82ea2b71-091a-4e58-929a-a3540c0b7539&out=http%3A%2F%2Fstatsheet.com%2Fmcb%2Fplayers%2Fp layer%2Fduke%2Ftyler-thornton%3Fper_game%3D1%26tempo_neutral%3D1%26tota ls%3D1%26plusminus%3D1%26game_type%3D2%26chart1%3D points_avg%26chart2%3Dminutes_avg%26chart3%3Dfg_pc t&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fbluedevilsreigncom.proboards.com% 2Fboard%2F2&title=Tyler%20Thornton%20in%20ACC%20Conference%20P lay%20%7C%20BlueDevilsReign&txt=link)

Tyler Thornton's 152.1 offensive rating is first in the ACC and first in the NCAA for any offensive rating of any player in any NCAA conference in conference play only.

Tyler Thornton's 5.0 steal percentage is first in the ACC and ninth in the NCAA for any steal percentage of any player in any NCAA conference in conference play only.

Tyler Thornton's 4.7 assist to turnover ratio is second in the ACC and 12th in the NCAA for any assist to turnover ratio of any player in any NCAA conference in conference play only.

stickdog
02-24-2014, 05:51 PM
Offensive Rating measures how efficiently a team scores on the possessions an individual player "uses". You can "use" a possession by shooting the ball, making an assist or turning the ball over.

Thornton's scoring efficiency numbers in ACC play are unworldly high because he has hit 52% of his three point shots and 75% of his free throws, and he has very rarely taken any other shot. Therefore, his effective field goal percentage in ACC play is 73.4% and his true shooting shooting percentage is 74.0%.

Through 15 ACC games, Tyler has hit 15-29 three point field goals while playing 20 minutes per game. That means he averages 2 made threes per 3.9 threes attempted per 40 minutes of ACC play. Only Dawkins, Hood and Cook are averaging more made threes per 40 minutes of ACC play, and Cook is hoisting 7.5 threes per 40 minutes in order to account for his 2.5 made threes per 40 minutes on 34% shooting compared to Tyler's 52% shooting.

Even more impressive are TT's assist, steal and turnover numbers in ACC play. Steal percentage measures how many steals you average per defensive possession played. Tyler averages one steal per every 20 ACC defensive possessions played. Despite playing just 20 minutes per game over Duke's 15 ACC games, Tyler has somehow managed to generate 24 of Duke's 101 total steals. That's 24% of the steals in just 10% of the available playing time. To put this in another perspective, Duke's ACC opponents have only managed to pry a combined 64 total steals away from Duke over 15 games of play. So Tyler, by himself and despite playing just 20 minutes per ACC contest, has managed to notch 3/8th of the total steals of all of Duke's ACC opponents.

It is generally incredible whenever any player accumulates more steals than turnovers. To illustrate this point, so far in the NBA this season, only 20 of the 197 players who have played more than 1000 minutes have managed to notch more steals than turnovers. This is especially difficult for players who generate assists with any proficiency whatsoever. In fact, the only NBA players this season who have an assist rate higher than Tyler's 17.8% assist rate in ACC play who have more steals than turnovers on the season are Chris Paul and Andre Iguodala. That's 2 out of 198 players.

Tyler Thornton doesn't just have more steals than he has turnovers in ACC play. He has 24 steals against just 7 turnovers in 301 minutes of ACC play. That's a 3.4 to 1 steal to turnover margin. That's ******* ridiculous. Since the NBA's 1977-78 season, only a single player (Maurice Cheeks in 1991-92) with an assist percentage over 12.5% and more than 300 minutes of PT has ever had more than twice as many steals as turnovers! Since the NBA's 1977-78 season, only 8 players (including Shane Battier this current season) with more than 300 minutes of PT have ever had more than 2.5 as many steals as turnovers! And none of these 8 players has had an assist rate above 10.1%. Since the NBA's 1977-78 season, only 3 players (including Shane Battier this current season) with more than 300 minutes of PT have ever had more than 3.3 as many steals as turnovers! And none of these 3 players has had an assist rate above 6.3%.

It is generally incredible whenever any player accumulates 3 times more assists than turnovers. To illustrate this point, so far in the NBA this season, only 8 of the 197 players who have played more than 1000 minutes (including Shane Battier and Josh McRoberts) have managed to notch more than 3 times as many assists as turnovers.

Tyler Thornton doesn't just have more than 3 times as many assists as he has turnovers in ACC play. He has 33 assists against just 7 turnovers in 301 minutes of ACC play. That's a 4.71 to 1 assist to turnover margin. That's ******* ridiculous. Since the NBA's 1977-78 season, only 8 players (including Shane Battier this current season) with more than 1000 minutes of PT have ever had more than 4.71 times as many steals as turnovers! Muggsy Bogues accomplished this feat an amazing 6 times. John Paxson and Maurice Cheeks managed it twice over their long careers, and no other NBA player has ever managed it more than once.

ncexnyc
02-24-2014, 06:31 PM
Bruise Brother #1 getting some statistical love, that will freak some people out.:D

FerryFor50
02-24-2014, 08:02 PM
Omg why is he playing so many minutes ????

timmy c
02-24-2014, 08:15 PM
Omg why is he playing so many minutes ????

Seth Curry should be taking some of those minutes.... Clearly. :p

OldPhiKap
02-24-2014, 08:50 PM
Seth Curry should be taking some of those minutes.... Clearly. :p

Olek looked great at the Blue-White.

Furniture
02-24-2014, 09:10 PM
He knows his limits. He is one smart young man!
Good leader too. You can clearly see in the huddle that he us doing the talking a lot of the time and the others are listening.
I think he got a hard rap by some earlier in the season because he was for the most part coming on with Josh. Many pointed out that with them both of at the same time the 'team' became ineffective offensively.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-25-2014, 07:43 AM
MP3 should take up TT playing time. He leads the nation in screens set per 40 mins.

Seriously though, what a curious player Tyler has become. He is weirdly compelling to watch, and I guess this explains why to a degree.

Go Duke!

CDu
02-25-2014, 09:16 AM
I don't mean to discredit the season Thornton is having in any way, but I must say that ORtg tends to overinflate the offensive value of a player like Thornton (and, similarly, a player like Dawkins). If you only shoot open 3pt shots and only make safe passes around the perimeter, you're making high-percentage plays and avoiding the types of plays that threaten to lower your ORtg. It's a great measure of the efficiency of a player, but not a great measure of the overall offensive value of the player.

For example, a 40+% 3pt shooter who never dribbles, never passes, and never takes anything other than a wide-open 3 is going to have a very strong ORtg. Conversely, a PG who is tasked with creating offense for himself and for others is going to commit more turnovers and is going to have more trouble sustaining a high ORtg.

Thornton (this season, at least) is the ORtg anomaly. He pretty much only shoots wide-open 3s or wide-open layups. He pretty much only makes the safe pass (generally to a perimeter guy). He pretty much never dribbles into traffic. So as long as he's hitting his 3s, his ORtg is going to look spectacular.

All that is meant to say this: Thornton has been a near-perfect 5th option on offense. As long as you have guys around him who can do all the heavy lifting for the offense, he's a terrific option out there, because he doesn't do anything that risks hurting the offense. Now, if you put him and two of Hairston/Plumlee/Jefferson on the floor together, then your offense is going to stagnate. But in a lineup with Sulaimon, Hood, and Parker, Thornton is far enough down the food chain that his offensive limitations don't hurt us, and his skill set actually complements the lineup.

I've been incredibly pleased with his performance this year. He's worlds better this year than he has been in any previous year. But he's basically managed that improvement by becoming a fantastic set-shooter who only shoots when wide open and only makes the safest of plays when not shooting. Which is a good thing for him, because his skill set isn't that of a guy who can be a playmaker.

It's great to see a kid figure out his role and really play it well. Thornton has absolutely found that niche and is doing it about as well as he can do it.

flyingdutchdevil
02-25-2014, 09:43 AM
Thornton is just what this team needs: a senior leader who gives this team the intangibles and the hard-nosed defense. I have enjoyed everything that Thornton has brought this year. He is a fearless warrior.

Also, I love his ability to hit threes. And I'm sure that Coach K kicks his butt every time Thornton is open down low and passes it instead of shooting it. Thornton is, without question, unselfish to a fault.

Kedsy
02-25-2014, 10:28 AM
I don't mean to discredit the season Thornton is having in any way, but I must say that ORtg tends to overinflate the offensive value of a player like Thornton (and, similarly, a player like Dawkins). If you only shoot open 3pt shots and only make safe passes around the perimeter, you're making high-percentage plays and avoiding the types of plays that threaten to lower your ORtg. It's a great measure of the efficiency of a player, but not a great measure of the overall offensive value of the player.

I agree completely with what you say about Tyler and oRtg. He's having a great senior season and is the perfect 4th or 5th option, but the numbers don't entirely measure his offensive worth when he's out there.

I don't entirely agree with your parenthetical statement about Andre. While Tyler's great oRtg comes with a 7.7 usage percentage (according to sports-reference.com, and for the season, not just ACC games), which is the lowest on the team, Andre's great oRtg comes with a 24.6 usage percentage, which is the 2nd highest on the team. So, while you're right that Andre doesn't necessarily put himself out there by driving very often or trying to make tough passes, he gets the ball a lot and tries to score a lot. I think the fact that he still has a high oRtg does say a great deal about his overall offensive value.

CDu
02-25-2014, 10:35 AM
I agree completely with what you say about Tyler and oRtg. He's having a great senior season and is the perfect 4th or 5th option, but the numbers don't entirely measure his offensive worth when he's out there.

I don't entirely agree with your parenthetical statement about Andre. While Tyler's great oRtg comes with a 7.7 usage percentage (according to sports-reference.com, and for the season, not just ACC games), which is the lowest on the team, Andre's great oRtg comes with a 24.6 usage percentage, which is the 2nd highest on the team. So, while you're right that Andre doesn't necessarily put himself out there by driving very often or trying to make tough passes, he gets the ball a lot and tries to score a lot. I think the fact that he still has a high oRtg does say a great deal about his overall offensive value.

I completely agree that Dawkins is a very valuable offensive player. But I also think that ORtg overvalues him. I don't think the two are mutually exclusive statements. I would agree that Dawkins' ORtg is probably closer to his actual offensive value than Thornton's ORtg (i.e., that ORtg overvalues Thornton more than it does Dawkins), due in large part to the difference in usage rate.

Indoor66
02-25-2014, 10:49 AM
I would point out that the "numbers" never measure the intangibles. As seniors, both Dawkins and Thornton (particularly Thornton) are stabilizing influences on their much younger teammates. Add that to the "numbers" and their worth far exceeds their usage or pure stats.

killerleft
02-25-2014, 10:54 AM
Tyler Thornton does a lot of good things for us. He's very good at taking fouls underneath so our bigs don't get them, while most of the time forcing the other team to make foul shots. He's just a great student of the game, and only the bang-bang nature of the game prevents virtually all of his decisions from being right. He's also a clutch shooter. I was quite agitated toward the end of the UNC game when he didn't get passes while patiently waiting (wide open) to take the 3-pointers for which he was already locked-and-loaded to hit.

flyingdutchdevil
02-25-2014, 10:56 AM
I would point out that the "numbers" never measure the intangibles. As seniors, both Dawkins and Thornton (particularly Thornton) are stabilizing influences on their much younger teammates. Add that to the "numbers" and their worth far exceeds their usage or pure stats.

Actually, advanced metrics can measure the intangibles, and it's only getting better. +/- is probably the most simple, and I'm sure that Thornton has a wonderful +/-.

The legacy of Shane Battier. Thank you Shane to all us stat nerds out there.

toooskies
02-25-2014, 11:02 AM
I completely agree that Dawkins is a very valuable offensive player. But I also think that ORtg overvalues him. I don't think the two are mutually exclusive statements. I would agree that Dawkins' ORtg is probably closer to his actual offensive value than Thornton's ORtg (i.e., that ORtg overvalues Thornton more than it does Dawkins), due in large part to the difference in usage rate.

All of this may be true, but shooting over 50% from behind the arc is spectacular in any context. That he has taken and made so many means that he's only taking good shots, which means he's executing the offense well. Also, a high turnover rate has been a problem for him in the past, so having so few this year is a significant and welcome improvement.

Listen to Quants
02-25-2014, 12:45 PM
.... While Tyler's great oRtg comes with a 7.7 usage percentage (according to sports-reference.com, and for the season, not just ACC games), which is the lowest on the team ... .... Your, and others' point that Tyler is not a central focus of the offense is, of course, right and the numbers support this. Still, 'usage percentage' is a stat that one doesn't necessarily want high (you know that, of course). The missed FGs and TOs obviously are negative to the offense. Thornton's stats obviously reflect a style designed to be low usage AND effective. His 3% is of course wondrous, as is his Assist/TO. It should be noted too, that 4.4 assists/40 minutes in ACC play for a '2' guard who almost always is on the court with either Sulaimon or Cook is a fair volume. His passes are safe but he has purpose.

I'm just chiming in with everybody else, ... kid is remarkably useful on the offensive end where a lot of us figured he would be a slight burden.

CDu
02-25-2014, 01:08 PM
All of this may be true, but shooting over 50% from behind the arc is spectacular in any context. That he has taken and made so many means that he's only taking good shots, which means he's executing the offense well. Also, a high turnover rate has been a problem for him in the past, so having so few this year is a significant and welcome improvement.

Actually, Dawkins is turning the ball over at about the same rate he always has. His career-low for turnovers/40 was 1.25 (as a freshman). As a sophomore and junior, it was 1.42-1.44. This year, it's 1.33. So he's been remarkably consistent in terms of turnover rate.

Dawkins' ORtg this year has been slightly better than his sophomore year ORtg, basically a result of hitting a higher percentage of his 3s this year. What's impressive is that he's done it while increasing his usage rate by about 50%.

Or were you talking about Thornton? If so then I'd agree that he's cut down on his turnovers. But I wouldn't say that he has taken "so many" shots. He has only attempted 59 FG this year (46 3s). It's amazing that he has hit 50%, although a good chunk of that is because he's so frequently left wide open for those 3s.

That said, he's been a VERY effective 5th option on this particular team, primarily because we're able to create offense while allowing him to stand quietly in the corner or on the wing in hopes of hitting a 3. Unlike in previous years where we didn't have quite as many playmakers on the floor, he's basically able to function in a low-risk role out there.

g-money
02-25-2014, 01:25 PM
I'm glad some of the stats are backing up what we've always known about Tyler: The kid's a winner.

Troublemaker
02-25-2014, 01:35 PM
It should be noted too, that 4.4 assists/40 minutes in ACC play for a '2' guard who almost always is on the court with either Sulaimon or Cook is a fair volume.

Yes, his passing is underrated. Tyler's the player I'm most comfortable with making an entry pass to the low post against both zone and man.

Against 2-3 zone, he and Sheed are the players I'm most comfortable with making the pass into the high post / FT line area.

stickdog
02-25-2014, 03:06 PM
It should be noted too, that 4.4 assists/40 minutes in ACC play for a '2' guard who almost always is on the court with either Sulaimon or Cook is a fair volume. His passes are safe but he has purpose.

Considering that Quinn's per 40 minute assist rate in ACC play is just 4.6 and Sulaimon's is just 4.5, Tyler's far more conservative style of play doesn't seem to be hurting the team in terms of assist generation.

Kedsy
02-25-2014, 03:32 PM
Considering that Quinn's per 40 minute assist rate in ACC play is just 4.6 and Sulaimon's is just 4.5, Tyler's far more conservative style of play doesn't seem to be hurting the team in terms of assist generation.

Well, one could argue we need *someone* with a better rate. Not saying it needs to be Tyler. For the full season, Quinn's assist rate is 6.0. Personally, I think our offense runs best when we have a lead guard who generates more than 4 and a half assists per 40 minutes.

CDu
02-25-2014, 03:34 PM
Considering that Quinn's per 40 minute assist rate in ACC play is just 4.6 and Sulaimon's is just 4.5, Tyler's far more conservative style of play doesn't seem to be hurting the team in terms of assist generation.

Oh sure. But that's somewhat of a reflection of the fact that we don't have one primary PG in this offense. Our guards tend to pass it around the perimeter and Cook and Sulaimon occasionally (though not consistently) will pass off the drive. To put those assist rates in perspective, they're about on par with Nate Britt of UNC, and somewhere in the neighborhood of #15-20 overall in the ACC.

I'd venture that most of Thornton's assists are of the "passing it around the perimeter" variety. Cook and Sulaimon get some of those too. But I'd venture that a higher proportion of their assists come off dribble penetration (which also results in a higher turnover rate).

Again, none of this is a complaint about Thornton. He's played his role to near perfection. It's just that his role on offense is a pretty low-usage, low-risk role. He benefits greatly from us having 3 or 4 guys on the court more dangerous offensively than him, so defenses frequently leave him alone. And he has done a fantastic job of taking advantage of that this year.

greybeard
02-25-2014, 09:02 PM
Oh sure. But that's somewhat of a reflection of the fact that we don't have one primary PG in this offense. Our guards tend to pass it around the perimeter and Cook and Sulaimon occasionally (though not consistently) will pass off the drive. To put those assist rates in perspective, they're about on par with Nate Britt of UNC, and somewhere in the neighborhood of #15-20 overall in the ACC.

I'd venture that most of Thornton's assists are of the "passing it around the perimeter" variety. Cook and Sulaimon get some of those too. But I'd venture that a higher proportion of their assists come off dribble penetration (which also results in a higher turnover rate).

Again, none of this is a complaint about Thornton. He's played his role to near perfection. It's just that his role on offense is a pretty low-usage, low-risk role. He benefits greatly from us having 3 or 4 guys on the court more dangerous offensively than him, so defenses frequently leave him alone. And he has done a fantastic job of taking advantage of that this year.

Only a few things to add. He makes great choices, throughout possessions that I think produce better choices by others, unselfish ones that create possibilities. Passing it around the exterior is not playing catch. Positioning, repositioning by the receiver, by the big on the side of the receiver such that more space towards the corner is open and the receiver to be and the passer to be see the space and allow it to develop, no rush, toss it to the other side, get it back, now slip and the pass and the shot.

I'd also add that Thornton is real good at finding ways to get lost. Not saying that defenders' do not have attention drawn elsewhere, but they are not forgetting about him, he's just not where they'd like or expect at times. Getting lost on purpose; a 50 plus percentage 3-shooter just happens to find ways not to be found and to be able to step into a 3 ball that he likes. I should be so good at finding my way home.

walras
02-25-2014, 09:41 PM
Thornton tonight had 7 assists, no turnovers, 3 rebounds, 3 steals and took one charge. He is really fun to watch.

SupaDave
02-25-2014, 09:53 PM
I've been incredibly pleased with his performance this year. He's worlds better this year than he has been in any previous year. But he's basically managed that improvement by becoming a fantastic set-shooter who only shoots when wide open and only makes the safest of plays when not shooting. Which is a good thing for him, because his skill set isn't that of a guy who can be a playmaker.

It's great to see a kid figure out his role and really play it well. Thornton has absolutely found that niche and is doing it about as well as he can do it.


Thornton tonight had 7 assists, no turnovers, 3 rebounds, 3 steals and took one charge. He is really fun to watch.

I'm sorry, but he sounds like a playmaker to me. Must he dribble it through his legs and bounce it off the backboard to be recognized? Dang - if only the guy hit clutch 3's...

Acymetric
02-25-2014, 10:18 PM
I don't mean to discredit the season Thornton is having in any way, but I must say that ORtg tends to overinflate the offensive value of a player like Thornton (and, similarly, a player like Dawkins). If you only shoot open 3pt shots and only make safe passes around the perimeter, you're making high-percentage plays and avoiding the types of plays that threaten to lower your ORtg. It's a great measure of the efficiency of a player, but not a great measure of the overall offensive value of the player.

For example, a 40+% 3pt shooter who never dribbles, never passes, and never takes anything other than a wide-open 3 is going to have a very strong ORtg. Conversely, a PG who is tasked with creating offense for himself and for others is going to commit more turnovers and is going to have more trouble sustaining a high ORtg.

Thornton (this season, at least) is the ORtg anomaly. He pretty much only shoots wide-open 3s or wide-open layups. He pretty much only makes the safe pass (generally to a perimeter guy). He pretty much never dribbles into traffic. So as long as he's hitting his 3s, his ORtg is going to look spectacular.

All that is meant to say this: Thornton has been a near-perfect 5th option on offense. As long as you have guys around him who can do all the heavy lifting for the offense, he's a terrific option out there, because he doesn't do anything that risks hurting the offense. Now, if you put him and two of Hairston/Plumlee/Jefferson on the floor together, then your offense is going to stagnate. But in a lineup with Sulaimon, Hood, and Parker, Thornton is far enough down the food chain that his offensive limitations don't hurt us, and his skill set actually complements the lineup.

I've been incredibly pleased with his performance this year. He's worlds better this year than he has been in any previous year. But he's basically managed that improvement by becoming a fantastic set-shooter who only shoots when wide open and only makes the safest of plays when not shooting. Which is a good thing for him, because his skill set isn't that of a guy who can be a playmaker.

It's great to see a kid figure out his role and really play it well. Thornton has absolutely found that niche and is doing it about as well as he can do it.

Gosh, I sure hated what it was like the last time we had a ballhandler that was considered to generally be a steady, no-flash guy who protected the ball and played within himself on offense.

niveklaen
02-25-2014, 10:34 PM
Gosh, I sure hated what it was like the last time we had a ballhandler that was considered to generally be a steady, no-flash guy who protected the ball and played within himself on offense.

You mean Duhon? Lots of people complained about him too, though he had way more turnovers, shot way worse, and stole the ball less frequently so maybe people were justified in complaining about him

vick
02-25-2014, 10:44 PM
You mean Duhon? Lots of people complained about him too, though he had way more turnovers, shot way worse, and stole the ball less frequently so maybe people were justified in complaining about him

I would presume he was talking about Scheyer (which is not to say Thornton is nearly the caliber player Scheyer was, of course, his very good ACC notwithstanding).

tbyers11
02-25-2014, 10:44 PM
You mean Duhon? Lots of people complained about him too, though he had way more turnovers, shot way worse, and stole the ball less frequently so maybe people were justified in complaining about him

Pretty sure he was talking about Jon Scheyer

Acymetric
02-25-2014, 10:57 PM
I would presume he was talking about Scheyer (which is not to say Thornton is nearly the caliber player Scheyer was, of course, his very good ACC notwithstanding).

Exactly. Not saying Tyler is the same player as Scheyer by any means, just trying to point out that there is some real and serious value to a player with those kinds of qualities. He has really improved this year in so many areas, love seeing a senior really put it together like he has.

Steven43
02-25-2014, 11:05 PM
I don't mean to discredit the season Thornton is having in any way, but I must say that ORtg tends to overinflate the offensive value of a player like Thornton (and, similarly, a player like Dawkins). If you only shoot open 3pt shots and only make safe passes around the perimeter, you're making high-percentage plays and avoiding the types of plays that threaten to lower your ORtg. It's a great measure of the efficiency of a player, but not a great measure of the overall offensive value of the player.

For example, a 40+% 3pt shooter who never dribbles, never passes, and never takes anything other than a wide-open 3 is going to have a very strong ORtg. Conversely, a PG who is tasked with creating offense for himself and for others is going to commit more turnovers and is going to have more trouble sustaining a high ORtg.

Thornton (this season, at least) is the ORtg anomaly. He pretty much only shoots wide-open 3s or wide-open layups. He pretty much only makes the safe pass (generally to a perimeter guy). He pretty much never dribbles into traffic. So as long as he's hitting his 3s, his ORtg is going to look spectacular.

All that is meant to say this: Thornton has been a near-perfect 5th option on offense. As long as you have guys around him who can do all the heavy lifting for the offense, he's a terrific option out there, because he doesn't do anything that risks hurting the offense. Now, if you put him and two of Hairston/Plumlee/Jefferson on the floor together, then your offense is going to stagnate. But in a lineup with Sulaimon, Hood, and Parker, Thornton is far enough down the food chain that his offensive limitations don't hurt us, and his skill set actually complements the lineup.

I've been incredibly pleased with his performance this year. He's worlds better this year than he has been in any previous year. But he's basically managed that improvement by becoming a fantastic set-shooter who only shoots when wide open and only makes the safest of plays when not shooting. Which is a good thing for him, because his skill set isn't that of a guy who can be a playmaker.

It's great to see a kid figure out his role and really play it well. Thornton has absolutely found that niche and is doing it about as well as he can do it.

This is the most accurate assessment of Tyler Thornton and what he does or does not bring to the team that I have ever read. Compared to the point guards at most elite programs Tyler has significant limitations in passing, ball-handling, penetrating/attacking the basket, attacking and distributing, creating his own shot, scoring when tightly guarded, overall quickness, lateral movement, and playing tough defense without unnecessary fouls. Those things aside, he is extremely unselfish, very tough, very competititve, a good free throw shooter, and just an overall heady player.

Zeb
02-25-2014, 11:43 PM
In addition to the steals and offensive efficiency, another thing I really like about Tyler's game of late is what a great "ball mover" he is. Many times when he gets the ball, he already knows exactly where to throw it next, so its almost a touch pass. And often these are passes into the post--something he does more frequently than any other Duke player.

I agree with the other comments that he has really become a very complementary 5th option on offense. Which is not something I expected at the start of the year.

Indoor66
02-26-2014, 07:31 AM
Did anyone else notice the play in the first half when, after our backcourt trap and VT got the ball to a big man out near the foul line - over by press row, TT was the nearest man to the ball - the VT center - and he left him and ran to the corner to cover the three point shooter? Heady, smart play. The man with the ball was the far lesser threat and he recognized and reacted properly.

Scorp4me
02-26-2014, 10:48 AM
I don't mean to discredit the season Thornton is having in any way, but I must say that ORtg tends to overinflate the offensive value of a player like Thornton (and, similarly, a player like Dawkins). If you only shoot open 3pt shots and only make safe passes around the perimeter, you're making high-percentage plays and avoiding the types of plays that threaten to lower your ORtg. It's a great measure of the efficiency of a player, but not a great measure of the overall offensive value of the player.

For example, a 40+% 3pt shooter who never dribbles, never passes, and never takes anything other than a wide-open 3 is going to have a very strong ORtg. Conversely, a PG who is tasked with creating offense for himself and for others is going to commit more turnovers and is going to have more trouble sustaining a high ORtg.

Thornton (this season, at least) is the ORtg anomaly. He pretty much only shoots wide-open 3s or wide-open layups. He pretty much only makes the safe pass (generally to a perimeter guy). He pretty much never dribbles into traffic. So as long as he's hitting his 3s, his ORtg is going to look spectacular.

All that is meant to say this: Thornton has been a near-perfect 5th option on offense. As long as you have guys around him who can do all the heavy lifting for the offense, he's a terrific option out there, because he doesn't do anything that risks hurting the offense. Now, if you put him and two of Hairston/Plumlee/Jefferson on the floor together, then your offense is going to stagnate. But in a lineup with Sulaimon, Hood, and Parker, Thornton is far enough down the food chain that his offensive limitations don't hurt us, and his skill set actually complements the lineup.

I've been incredibly pleased with his performance this year. He's worlds better this year than he has been in any previous year. But he's basically managed that improvement by becoming a fantastic set-shooter who only shoots when wide open and only makes the safest of plays when not shooting. Which is a good thing for him, because his skill set isn't that of a guy who can be a playmaker.

It's great to see a kid figure out his role and really play it well. Thornton has absolutely found that niche and is doing it about as well as he can do it.

Reminds me of the scene in Ricky Bobby where he says "with all due respect" and then proceeds to insult the guy's masculinity. He responds that just because you say "with all due respect" it doesn't mean you can say whatever you want. To which Ricky Bobby responds..."Sure as heck does. It's in the Geneva Convention, look it up".

But looks like you're saying Thornton only takes open shots, only makes good passes, and generally avoids making bad plays...so maybe the disclaimer wasn't necessary =)

Troublemaker
02-26-2014, 11:25 AM
Reminds me of the scene in Ricky Bobby where he says "with all due respect" and then proceeds to insult the guy's masculinity. He responds that just because you say "with all due respect" it doesn't mean you can say whatever you want. To which Ricky Bobby responds..."Sure as heck does. It's in the Geneva Convention, look it up".

But looks like you're saying Thornton only takes open shots, only makes good passes, and generally avoids making bad plays...so maybe the disclaimer wasn't necessary =)

There was still an element of damning with faint praise in there. CDu didn't mention Tyler's defense -- the very good off-ball / ball-denial defense, the turnovers Tyler induces. He didn't mention Tyler's leadership and team-settling / team-organizing skills. He didn't mention Tyler's knack for making the post entry passes into Jabari that the other players can't seem to make, or that against 2-3 zone, he's an essential cog in Duke's quick-passing attack that moves the 2-3 zone around until a gap to the high-post or an open shooter emerges.

CDu made it seem like Thornton's entire value is derived from his ability to hit set shots well. Which just isn't true. I was gonna let it slide though because I imagine it's difficult for CDu to praise Thornton, and I appreciate the "effort" he made. I was gonna let it slide, but then Steven43 had to chime in and overpraise CDu's post.

See, I was gonna let it slide because CDu is a very good poster whose opinions I respect a lot. I was gonna let it slide because CDu doesn't annoy me tremendously.

Steven43
02-26-2014, 02:38 PM
See, I was gonna let it slide because CDu is a very good poster whose opinions I respect a lot. I was gonna let it slide because CDu doesn't annoy me tremendously.
Well, at least your name indicates some sense of self-awareness.

CDu
02-26-2014, 02:48 PM
Gosh, I sure hated what it was like the last time we had a ballhandler that was considered to generally be a steady, no-flash guy who protected the ball and played within himself on offense.

There is quite a large difference between Scheyer and Thornton. Scheyer was (as a senior) nothing of a game-manager. He was a true playmaker for that team, and certainly didn't just play within himself on offense.

CDu
02-26-2014, 02:53 PM
There was still an element of damning with faint praise in there. CDu didn't mention Tyler's defense -- the very good off-ball / ball-denial defense, the turnovers Tyler induces. He didn't mention Tyler's leadership and team-settling / team-organizing skills. He didn't mention Tyler's knack for making the post entry passes into Jabari that the other players can't seem to make, or that against 2-3 zone, he's an essential cog in Duke's quick-passing attack that moves the 2-3 zone around until a gap to the high-post or an open shooter emerges.

CDu made it seem like Thornton's entire value is derived from his ability to hit set shots well. Which just isn't true. I was gonna let it slide though because I imagine it's difficult for CDu to praise Thornton, and I appreciate the "effort" he made. I was gonna let it slide, but then Steven43 had to chime in and overpraise CDu's post.

See, I was gonna let it slide because CDu is a very good poster whose opinions I respect a lot. I was gonna let it slide because CDu doesn't annoy me tremendously.

I didn't mention Thornton's defense because I didn't think that was the main point of this thread. But I'm happy to praise Thornton for his defensive role. Especially as of late, he seems to have cut down on fouls and is making even more great plays to get steals. He's had his ups and downs over his career, but lately he REALLY seems to be dialed in defensively. I have nothing but love for his court awareness and effort. He was, in the past (and even earlier this season) too foul-prone for my taste. But his play of late has been nothing short of sensational defensively.

And I have no problems praising Thornton, and I'm not sure why you'd think I would find it difficult to praise Thornton. I very much appreciate how much he's improved his game over his four years, and I very much appreciate what he provides to this team offensively. But one can do that while also noting what his role is offensively. He's a far far better player now than he was when he got to Duke, and that is a testament to hard work and dedication. That can't be commended enough. But that's a separate discussion from overstating his offensive role. One can be very pleased with Thornton and still understand that his offensive role is that of a very smart 4th/5th option.

CDu
02-26-2014, 02:57 PM
Reminds me of the scene in Ricky Bobby where he says "with all due respect" and then proceeds to insult the guy's masculinity. He responds that just because you say "with all due respect" it doesn't mean you can say whatever you want. To which Ricky Bobby responds..."Sure as heck does. It's in the Geneva Convention, look it up".

But looks like you're saying Thornton only takes open shots, only makes good passes, and generally avoids making bad plays...so maybe the disclaimer wasn't necessary =)

Yeah, on a team that is loaded with talent around him, he generally defers to them and plays the high-percentage game to near perfection. And he has found a perfect niche on a team that can afford for him to play that high-percentage, low-risk game. It's a nice melding of effort to improve by him meeting tons of talent around him at (hopefully) just the right time.

stickdog
02-26-2014, 03:07 PM
Updated assists per 40 minutes of ACC play:

4.8 Thornton
4.6 Sulaimon
4.5 Cook
2.4 Hood
1.7 Jefferson
1.1 Parker
1.0 Dawkins
0.9 Plumlee
0.4 Jones

stickdog
02-26-2014, 03:15 PM
Updated everything else:

Tyler Thornton's 150.9 offensive rating is first in the ACC and first in the NCAA for any offensive rating of any player in any NCAA conference in conference play only.

Tyler Thornton's 5.7 assist to turnover ratio is first in the ACC and 8th in the NCAA for any assist to turnover ratio of any player in any NCAA conference in conference play only.

Tyler Thornton's 5.1 steal percentage is first in the ACC and 9th in the NCAA for any steal percentage of any player in any NCAA conference in conference play only.

link (http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/duke/tyler-thornton?per_game=1&tempo_neutral=1&totals=1&plusminus=1&game_type=2&chart1=points_avg&chart2=minutes_avg&chart3=fg_pct)

It is generally incredible whenever any player accumulates more steals than turnovers. To illustrate this point, so far in the NBA this season, only 20 of the 197 players who have played more than 1000 minutes have managed to notch more steals than turnovers. This is especially difficult for players who generate assists with any proficiency whatsoever. In fact, the only NBA player with more than 1000 minutes of playing time this season who has an assist rate higher than Tyler's 21.0% assist rate in ACC play and more steals than turnovers is Chris Paul. That's one out of 197 players.

Tyler Thornton doesn't just have more steals than he has turnovers in ACC play. He has 27 steals against just 7 turnovers in 334 minutes of ACC play. That's a 3.86 to 1 steal to turnover margin. That's ******* insane. Since the NBA's 1977-78 season, only a single player (Maurice Cheeks in 1991-92) with an assist percentage over 12.5% and more than 300 minutes of PT has ever had more than twice as many steals as turnovers! Since the NBA's 1977-78 season, only one player (http://bkref.com/tiny/cvRnG) with more than 300 minutes of PT has ever had more than 3.8 times as many steals as turnovers!

It is generally incredible whenever any player accumulates 3 times as many assists as turnovers. To illustrate this point, so far in the NBA this season, only 8 of the 197 players who have played more than 1000 minutes (including Shane Battier and Josh McRoberts) have managed to notch more than 3 times as many assists as turnovers.

Tyler Thornton doesn't just have more than 3 times as many assists as he has turnovers in ACC play. He has 40 assists against just 7 turnovers in 334 minutes of ACC play. That's a 5.71 to 1 assist to turnover margin. That's ******* insane. Since the NBA's 1977-78 season, only one player (http://bkref.com/tiny/Uf2Vp) with more than 1000 minutes of PT has ever had more than 5.5 times as many assists as turnovers!

79-77
02-26-2014, 03:50 PM
TT deserves a lot of credit for seizing a bigger role with the team than many (including me) might have expected, but I think part of the story is what's happened with Cook's game. He seems to have plateaued while TT and Sulaimon have continued to improve.

I certainly didn't expect Cook to get only 11 minutes in an ACC game this season, as he did last night. Nor did I think Sulaimon had penetrate-and-dish in his game, but there we are.

Scorp4me
02-26-2014, 04:33 PM
He seems to have plateaued while TT and Sulaimon have continued to improve.

That absolutely without a doubt can't be true! I know because I've read it here and every other Duke message board I've visited. This team has a higher ceiling with Cook starting, Thornton should be playing minimal minutes, and we have no chance with Tyler, why K can't see it when most posters can is beyond me. I know, cause I read it.

Just for clarification, that was sarcasm...but good natured sarcasm =)

stickdog
02-26-2014, 06:19 PM
Tyler has 29 assists and 14 steals vs. just 3 turnovers over his last 7 games.

That's a 14.3 to 1 assist + steal to turnover ratio.

That's 6.3 assists and 3.0 steals against 0.7 turnovers per 40 minutes of play over his last 7 games.

6.3 assists per 40 minutes is not some small number.

In fact, only 8 Duke players have managed to average more than 5.0 assists per 40 minutes played over Duke's last 17 seasons.

JWill (sophomore): 7.6 assists & 2.5 steals vs. 5.0 turnovers per 40 minutes
JWill (freshman): 7.6 assists & 2.8 steals vs. 4.8 turnovers per 40 minutes
Chris Duhon (junior): 7.1 assists & 2.1 steals vs. 3.3 turnovers per 40 minutes
Chris Duhon (senior): 6.9 assists & 2.4 steals vs. 3.2 turnovers per 40 minutes
Chris Duhon (sophomore): 6.8 assists & 2.6 steals vs. 3.0 turnovers per 40 minutes
Will Avery (sophomore): 6.5 assists & 1.9 steals vs. 3.4 turnovers per 40 minutes
Wojo (senior): 6.5 assists & 2.9 steals vs. 2.5 turnovers per 40 minutes
Greg Paulus (freshman): 6.4 assists & 1.9 steals vs. 4.1 turnovers per 40 minutes
JWill (junior): 6.4 assists & 1.7 steals vs. 2.6 turnovers per 40 minutes
Quinn Cook (sophomore): 6.3 assists & 2.6 steals vs. 4.5 turnovers per 40 minutes
Kyrie Irving (freshman): 6.2 assists & 2.1 steals vs. 3.6 turnovers per 40 minutes
Quinn Cook (junior): 5.8 assists & 1.8 steals vs. 2.1 turnovers per 40 minutes
Jon Scheyer (senior): 5.3 assists & 1.8 steals vs. 1.8 turnovers per 40 minutes

Note that JWill & Duhon are Duke's only players over the last 17 seasons to have averaged more than 6.5 assists per 40 minutes of play. The fewest turnovers of either player in any of these seasons was 3.0 per 40 minutes of play. Over Tyler's last 7 games, he has averaged 6.3 assists and 0.7 turnovers per 40 minutes of play.

Further note that the lowest turnover total on the list is Scheyer's 1.8 turnovers per 40 minutes of play. Over his last 7 games, Tyler has averaged 0.7 turnovers per 40 minutes of play while averaging one more assist and 1.2 more steals per 40 minutes than Scheyer averaged his senior season. Tyler has also averaged just 0.8 turnovers per 40 minutes over the entire ACC season so far.

Finally, note that the highest steal total on this list is the 2.8 steals per 40 minutes notched by JWill in his freshman season. Tyler has averaged 3.0 steals per 40 minutes played over his last 7 games and 3.2 steals per 40 minutes played on the entire ACC season.

I'd put Tyler's recent 7 game tear of 6.3 assists and 3.0 steals vs. 0.7 turnovers per 40 minutes of play against any of these guards' assist + steal to turnover numbers, in terms of both efficiency and quantity.

roywhite
02-26-2014, 07:27 PM
stickdog -- great job on the numbers, and truly impressive work for Tyler. Talk about a senior stepping forward...

My observation is that Tyler has made several of his steals after really good on-the-ball pressure by Rasheed Sulaimon. They seem to have some of the best two-man defensive plays that I've seen since Dawkins and Amaker were pulling off traps. Sulaimon sets it up with tough man-to-man defense on the ball handler, pushing him out and turning him, and Tyler anticipates and pounces, either knocking away the dribble or intercepting the pass.

Is this an accurate perception of where and how many of Thornton's steals are occurring?

Furniture
02-26-2014, 07:53 PM
I think one difference between Cook and TT was quite noticeable last night. TT would get up court and move the ball much quicker than Cook.

Kedsy
02-26-2014, 10:06 PM
I'd put Tyler's recent 7 game tear of 6.3 assists and 3.0 steals vs. 0.7 turnovers per 40 minutes of play against any of these guards' assist + steal to turnover numbers, in terms of both efficiency and quantity.

I agree Tyler has been playing very well lately, but I'm not sure how instructive it is to compare a 7 game stretch to another player's full season. I'm sure more than 8 players have put up these kinds of numbers over 7 games, and I'm sure the 8 you named did it multiple times and many of them had equally or even more eye-popping numbers than Tyler over a 7 game stretch as well. I just think it's an apples and oranges comparison.

Des Esseintes
02-26-2014, 11:18 PM
I agree Tyler has been playing very well lately, but I'm not sure how instructive it is to compare a 7 game stretch to another player's full season. I'm sure more than 8 players have put up these kinds of numbers over 7 games, and I'm sure the 8 you named did it multiple times and many of them had equally or even more eye-popping numbers than Tyler over a 7 game stretch as well. I just think it's an apples and oranges comparison.
Yeah, same goes with the 1000+ minute NBA players cited earlier in the thread. Tyler is playing great, but the 18 games of ACC play =/= 82 of NBA play. Which, again, does nothing to take away from Tyler having the latest Extraordinary Duke Senior Season, in which a guy exceeds even the seemingly rosiest of expectations we could have put on him.

greybeard
02-27-2014, 12:06 AM
There is quite a large difference between Scheyer and Thornton. Scheyer was (as a senior) nothing of a game-manager. He was a true playmaker for that team, and certainly didn't just play within himself on offense.

He absolutely played within himself on offense, which was given broader range by K. Thornton is on the court with four bona fide scorers. Scheyer, 2. Scheyer had more scorer in his game than Thornton, but he was not a creator for that offense. Zoubek was the closest thing to a creator that Duke had. A unique roll which made Duke such a very tough out.

stickdog
02-27-2014, 12:36 AM
I agree Tyler has been playing very well lately, but I'm not sure how instructive it is to compare a 7 game stretch to another player's full season. I'm sure more than 8 players have put up these kinds of numbers over 7 games, and I'm sure the 8 you named did it multiple times and many of them had equally or even more eye-popping numbers than Tyler over a 7 game stretch as well. I just think it's an apples and oranges comparison.

Please list all the Duke players who have had 7 consecutive ACC game stretches with more than 6.3 assists per 40 minutes and better than a 9.7 to 1 assist to turnover ratio.

Because I really like them apples.

CBecker
02-27-2014, 01:08 AM
I think his passing is underrated by some here. He doesn't just make safe passes. Passing into the post is quite a difficult thing to do considering how blocked up the area can get at times, Tyler to me is possibly the best post passer on the team. He made a few to Jabari last game that really caught my eye.

throatybeard
02-27-2014, 01:18 AM
I don't know anything about the rate stats y'all are posting and I salute them, but count-stats-wise, I want to say that Wojo and THill both ended their careers with more steals than TOs.

Kedsy
02-27-2014, 01:28 AM
Please list all the Duke players who have had 7 consecutive ACC game stretches with more than 6.3 assists per 40 minutes and better than a 9.7 to 1 assist to turnover ratio.

Because I really like them apples.

First of all, do you deny that comparing a 7 game stretch to another player's full season is a misleading comparison? Because I think that's pretty self-evident. And why 7 games? In the four games preceding Tyler's nice 7 game stretch, he had exactly one (1) assist in each game. So why didn't you talk about his 11 game stretch?

Second, why does it matter if it's ACC games or not? It's not like the 7 game stretch you cite was against particularly difficult opposition: only two top 20 teams (according to Pomeroy), and against one of those teams Tyler had zero (0) assists against 1 turnover; plus one top 50 team (#49), and four teams ranked between #116 and #184. My guess is most 7 game stretches (ACC or not) in most year's Duke schedule would average as good or better than the #96 that this stretch averages.

Third, after you make the claim that Tyler's stats are so otherworldly by making an apples-to-oranges comparison to easily accessible full-season stats, why do you think I'd feel obligated to research 7-game stretches of every Duke player ever?

Finally, the second player I looked up, Quinn Cook as a freshman, had a 7-game ACC stretch in which he averaged 6.59 assists per 40 minutes with a 7 to 1 a/to ratio. A slightly smaller a/to, but essentially the same stats with which you've challenged me. He also had a 5 game stretch against ACC opponents in which he averaged 6.06 assists per 40 with a 10 to 1 a/to ratio, and an earlier 4 game stretch (admittedly including just one game against an ACC team) in which he averaged 11.43 assists per 40 with a 12 to 1 a/to ratio. Honestly, I have no desire to look up every other Duke player to give you a complete list, but if the second player I looked up put up those kind of stats in short stretches, maybe it's not so unique as you suggest.

Kedsy
02-27-2014, 01:53 AM
Because I really like them apples.

OK, I checked three more players. Wojo had a 5 game stretch in 1998 where he averaged 8.1 assists per 40 with a 9.67 to 1 a/to ratio, and a 4 game stretch in 1996 where he averaged 7.92 assists per 40 with a 10 to 1 a/to ratio. He may have had other such streaks, even longer ones, but it's hard to catch them all when you're just eyeballing. Jon Scheyer in 2009-10 opened the season with an 8 game stretch averaging 5.87 assists per 40 with a 21 to 0 (!) a/to ratio. I'm sure you could find some other impressive short spans for him too. Chris Duhon as a freshman had a 7 game ACC stretch with 5.31 assists per 40 and a 7.67 a/to ratio, including a 5 game stretch where he averaged 5.25 assists per 40 with a 16 to 1 a/to ratio. I'd bet he had some other nice stretches in his career as well.

So, I've now checked five guys and four of them had similar (admittedly not identical, but similar) short streaks that essentially match Tyler's numbers, some even more eye popping than his. And that's just from quick eyeballing.

If that's not enough for you, I don't care. I'm going to bed now.

stickdog
02-27-2014, 03:57 AM
Still waiting for that 7+ consecutive ACC game stretch I asked for.

The reason I'm asking for an equally impressive 7+ game streak of ACC games is because that is the streak Tyler is on right now (and counting).

79-77
02-27-2014, 09:14 AM
I think his passing is underrated by some here. He doesn't just make safe passes. Passing into the post is quite a difficult thing to do considering how blocked up the area can get at times, Tyler to me is possibly the best post passer on the team. He made a few to Jabari last game that really caught my eye.

Perhaps on post entries, but I think Sulaimon is better at penetrate-and-dish.

CBecker
02-27-2014, 09:32 AM
Perhaps on post entries, but I think Sulaimon is better at penetrate-and-dish.

Yeah I meant entries. Rasheed is obviously better at penetration. Tyler throws a nice lob as well.

Kedsy
02-27-2014, 11:17 AM
Still waiting for that 7+ consecutive ACC game stretch I asked for.

The reason I'm asking for an equally impressive 7+ game streak of ACC games is because that is the streak Tyler is on right now (and counting).

Thanks for helping me make my point. My original point was you were improperly trying to show how good Tyler's recent 7 game stretch is by comparing it to other player's full seasons. But if 5 game stretches aren't a good enough comparison for a 7 game stretch, how is a 7 game stretch a worthy comparison for an entire season?

Sure, Tyler is on a good 7 game streak. But he's also working on a 5 games streak of 4.55 assists per 40 with a 6 to 1 a/to ratio, and all the streaks I mentioned were way better than that. Also, basically, you're touting him for beating up on a bunch of sub-115 teams. Against the only top 100 teams we've played during Tyler's current streak, he's averaging a pedestrian 3.33 assists per 40 and a 2 to 1 a/to ratio. Not particularly good at all.

Finally, I did give you a couple 7+ game streaks: Quinn's freshman streak of 6.59 assists per 40 and 7 to 1 ratio and Jon Scheyer's 8 game streak of 5.87 assists per 40 and 8.4 to 1 a/to ratio (I apologize for misspeaking about Scheyer's 21 to 0 a/to -- that was only in four games, but it was late when I posted it). If you really think that Tyler's 6.3 and 9.7 to 1 is substantially more impressive than Quinn's 6.59 and 7 to 1, I hope you realize that if Tyler had been credited with just one more turnover, his a/to would have been 7.25 to 1. Again, emphasizing how short spans aren't comparable to full seasons.

Finally, since you're "waiting," here it is: Andre Buckner during his freshman season had a 7 ACC game stretch in which he averaged 7.1 assists per 40 with an infinite (zero turnovers) a/to ratio. Better than Tyler in both measures. While it's true Andre B didn't play many minutes during that streak, neither has Tyler compared to the full season totals of most of the guys on your comparison list. It's all a matter of degree and that was my point.

Steven43
02-27-2014, 12:03 PM
Perhaps on post entries, but I think Sulaimon is better at penetrate-and-dish.

You are correct that Sulaimon is better at penetrate-and-dish because Thornton doesn't penetrate-and-dish. At all. He doesn't even penetrate. He has neither the handles nor the quickness necessary to be that type of player.

Kedsy
02-27-2014, 12:32 PM
Still waiting for that 7+ consecutive ACC game stretch I asked for.

The reason I'm asking for an equally impressive 7+ game streak of ACC games is because that is the streak Tyler is on right now (and counting).


Thanks for helping me make my point. My original point was you were improperly trying to show how good Tyler's recent 7 game stretch is by comparing it to other player's full seasons. But if 5 game stretches aren't a good enough comparison for a 7 game stretch, how is a 7 game stretch a worthy comparison for an entire season?

Sure, Tyler is on a good 7 game streak. But he's also working on a 5 games streak of 4.55 assists per 40 with a 6 to 1 a/to ratio, and all the streaks I mentioned were way better than that. Also, basically, you're touting him for beating up on a bunch of sub-115 teams. Against the only top 100 teams we've played during Tyler's current streak, he's averaging a pedestrian 3.33 assists per 40 and a 2 to 1 a/to ratio. Not particularly good at all.

Finally, I did give you a couple 7+ game streaks: Quinn's freshman streak of 6.59 assists per 40 and 7 to 1 ratio and Jon Scheyer's 8 game streak of 5.87 assists per 40 and 8.4 to 1 a/to ratio (I apologize for misspeaking about Scheyer's 21 to 0 a/to -- that was only in four games, but it was late when I posted it). If you really think that Tyler's 6.3 and 9.7 to 1 is substantially more impressive than Quinn's 6.59 and 7 to 1, I hope you realize that if Tyler had been credited with just one more turnover, his a/to would have been 7.25 to 1. Again, emphasizing how short spans aren't comparable to full seasons.

Finally, since you're "waiting," here it is: Andre Buckner during his freshman season had a 7 ACC game stretch in which he averaged 7.1 assists per 40 with an infinite (zero turnovers) a/to ratio. Better than Tyler in both measures. While it's true Andre B didn't play many minutes during that streak, neither has Tyler compared to the full season totals of most of the guys on your comparison list. It's all a matter of degree and that was my point.

One more thing. You may or may not know that Tyler has had at least one similar streak every season he's played for Duke.

His freshman year he had a 7 game streak (only 2 ACC games, though) in which he averaged 7.38 assists per 40 and had a 12 to 1 a/to ratio. His sophomore year he had a 6 ACC game streak in which he averaged 7.4 assists per 40 and had a 6.67 to 1 a/to ratio. His junior year he had a 6 game streak (not ACC, but including Louisville, Ohio State and Temple) in which he averaged 7.5 assists per 40 with a 5 to 1 a/to ratio.

Were you jumping up and down about those streaks as well? Streaks happen. Tyler's always been pretty good about not turning the ball over, and sometimes for short streaks he also racks up assists. Let's see if he keeps it up for the rest of the season before we start comparing him to past full-season Duke greats and NBA players (although it probably won't be apples-to-apples even then).

The Gordog
02-27-2014, 01:01 PM
Please list all the Duke players who have had 7 consecutive ACC game stretches with more than 6.3 assists per 40 minutes and better than a 9.7 to 1 assist to turnover ratio.

Because I really like them apples.

I think if you were to look at Jon Scheyer from the beginning of 2010 you would find comparable numbers with more scoring. He was in consideration as a potential National POY, and on every first team AA list at the time.

I would also add the TT has committed 41 fouls in ACC play, second on the team only to 44 for Amile.

I like TT, think he's a great player and leader, but it's just 7 games for Pete's sake.

greybeard
02-27-2014, 01:19 PM
This thread stinks.

niveklaen
02-27-2014, 01:23 PM
It looks like TT is this year's Z. Career backup senior who most posters insist should be kept to spot minutes off the bench (because he has a lower ceiling than a highly touted underclassman) who has a light turn on half way through season and starts putting up historically good numbers in a non-scorer role - hope it ends with the same conclusion

Kedsy
02-27-2014, 01:26 PM
This thread stinks.

You're misinterpreting. Nobody is saying Tyler isn't playing at a very high level or that he's not an incredibly valuable member of this year's team. He is, and I think everyone in the thread agrees with that. Nobody's saying anything bad about Tyler.

The debate is about when numerically measuring his value whether a 7 game stretch is ample if you're going to compare the numbers to full season statistics by other players. And/or whether a 7 game stretch can be proof that someone is having a historically good season. Nothing smelly about that, in my opinion.

greybeard
02-27-2014, 01:31 PM
You're misinterpreting. Nobody is saying Tyler isn't playing at a very high level or that he's not an incredibly valuable member of this year's team. He is, and I think everyone in the thread agrees with that. Nobody's saying anything bad about Tyler.

The debate is about when numerically measuring his value whether a 7 game stretch is ample if you're going to compare the numbers to full season statistics by other players. And/or whether a 7 game stretch can be proof that someone is having a historically good season. Nothing smelly about that, in my opinion.

I KNOW what this is about. It stinks.

Kedsy
02-27-2014, 01:33 PM
It looks like TT is this year's Z. Career backup senior who most posters insist should be kept to spot minutes off the bench (because he has a lower ceiling than a highly touted underclassman) who has a light turn on half way through season and starts putting up historically good numbers in a non-scorer role - hope it ends with the same conclusion

I disagree. First of all, I think you're mischaracterizing Brian Zoubek's career. The alleged light bulb moment was simply Coach K deciding to play him more minutes. His per minute and tempo-free stats were very similar before and after the "light turn[ed] on."

Second, I don't think that happened to Tyler, either. He's certainly improving, as most Duke players do over time, but he's more or less doing the same things he's always done -- take and make open shots, not turn the ball over, play solid off-ball defense. I don't view it as a light bulb moment at all.

I also haven't seen anybody in this thread insisting that Tyler be kept to spot minutes off the bench, either.

Kedsy
02-27-2014, 01:34 PM
I KNOW what this is about. It stinks.

Why?

stickdog
02-27-2014, 02:03 PM
Look, the only reason I mentioned that Tyler's per 40 minute assist rate over the last 7 games is the highest on the team and comparable to that of the full season rates of Duke's best recent point guards was simply to counter the people here dismissing Tyler's amazing recent assist to turnover rate by saying that he doesn't create any assists.

The comparison I made about Tyler's steal to turnover ratio against 37 seasons of NBA data still stands. Tyler has played 334 minutes so far over 16 games in the ACC season. And his steal to turnover ratio is an incredible 3.86 to 1. In order to demonstrate just how incredible this is, I went to an NBA database where I can search for all players who have played over 300 minutes in an NBA season who ever had a higher steal to turnover ratio. This is not to suggest that Tyler is an NBA player playing in the NBA. This is to demonstrate how crazy high his 3.86 to 1 ratio is.

Do you not believe that ratio is high or something? Do you not believe it is impressive? Because in 37 years of NBA play, only one player has ever exceeded that ratio in season while booking more than 176 minutes of playing time. Only 3 players have ever exceeded that ratio in a season while booking more than 100 minutes of playing time. Sure, a 16 game season is not an 82 game season, but think of all the NBA players over the last 37 seasons who have had short seasons because of injuries or because they were borderline players just trying to fit in and not make any mistakes lest they get cut from the team. Does it not impress you that Tyler's Thornton's current steal to turnover ratio in 334 minutes of ACC play is higher than all but three NBA players who booked more than 100 minutes of NBA play over the last 37 NBA seasons?

Sure, it's apples to oranges. But, as I said before, I really like them apples. And them apples are happening right now.

niveklaen
02-27-2014, 02:13 PM
I disagree. First of all, I think you're mischaracterizing Brian Zoubek's career. The alleged light bulb moment was simply Coach K deciding to play him more minutes. His per minute and tempo-free stats were very similar before and after the "light turn[ed] on."

Second, I don't think that happened to Tyler, either. He's certainly improving, as most Duke players do over time, but he's more or less doing the same things he's always done -- take and make open shots, not turn the ball over, play solid off-ball defense. I don't view it as a light bulb moment at all.

I also haven't seen anybody in this thread insisting that Tyler be kept to spot minutes off the bench, either.

I think Z did have a light bulb moment in that his foul rate dropped dramatically around half way through the year - his rebounding had always been great on a per minute basis, but he averaged 7 fouls/40 minutes for his first 3 1/2 years limiting the pt that K could give him - K didn't just wake up one morning and change his mind about playing Z. Z's foul rate prohibited K from playing him more. Z improved his foul rate and K responded by increasing his PT.

TT's improvement is not 'similar to most duke players over time' - he's gone from a 35% 3pt shooter as a soph to a 47% 3pt shooter this year; he has cut his turnovers in half from last year and in the last 7 games (granted small sample size...) he has doubled his assist rate - these are not small or normal improvements, they are big unusual improvements

I suspect that if stickdog were to run his numbers from last year or the year before that TT did not look like a historically good player by any of these measurements then the way he does this year.

I do think 7 games is too small to compare confidently to a full year of stats - as others on this thread have pointed to multiple 7ish game stretches of A/TO and A/40 numbers that are comparable to TT's current streak - but the season long excellent 3pt shooting and the season long halving of his turnovers while simultaneously increasing his assist rate are credible evidence that Duke can be great with him starting instead of coming off the bench

No one on this thread has suggested spot minutes off the bench, but throughout the summer and early in the season it was a commonly heard refrain - just like it was for Z - and that refrain his gone silent, just like it did for Z.

Des Esseintes
02-27-2014, 02:14 PM
You are correct that Sulaimon is better at penetrate-and-dish because Thornton doesn't penetrate-and-dish. At all. He doesn't even penetrate. He has neither the handles nor the quickness necessary to be that type of player.

You are a wonderful poster because you never run a hostile point about a player into the ground. At all. You don't unnecessarily write post after post making clear your displeasure with a player. You have neither sense of entitlement nor the jejune understanding of basketball to be that type of poster.

stickdog
02-27-2014, 02:17 PM
The comparison I made about Tyler's assist to turnover ratio against 37 seasons of NBA data also still stands. Tyler has played 334 minutes so far over 16 games in the ACC season. And his assist to turnover ratio is an incredible 5.71 to 1. In order to demonstrate just how incredible this is, I went to an NBA database where I can search for all players who have played over 300 minutes in an NBA season who ever had a higher assist to turnover ratio. This is not to suggest that Tyler is an NBA player playing in the NBA. This is to demonstrate how crazy high his 5.71 to 1 ratio is.

Do you not believe that ratio is high or something? Do you not believe it is impressive? Because in 37 years of NBA play, only 4 players have ever exceeded that ratio in season while booking more than 300 minutes of playing time. Only 6 players have ever exceeded that ratio in a season while booking more than 200 minutes of playing time. Only 13 players have ever exceeded that ratio in a season while booking more than 100 minutes of playing time. Sure, a 16 game season is not an 82 game season, but think of all the NBA players over the last 37 seasons who have had short seasons because of injuries or because they were borderline players just trying to fit in and not make any mistakes lest they get cut from the team. In fact, of the 13 players who have achieved this feat while booking more than 100 minutes, 6 played in 21 NBA games or fewer over their "full" seasons. Does it not impress you that Tyler's Thornton's current assist to turnover ratio in 334 minutes of ACC play is higher than all but four NBA players who have booked more than 300 minutes of NBA play over the last 37 NBA seasons?

Sure, it's apples to oranges. But, as I said before, I really like them apples. And them apples are happening right now.

Kfanarmy
02-27-2014, 02:23 PM
Thanks for helping me make my point. My original point was you were improperly trying to show how good Tyler's recent 7 game stretch is by comparing it to other player's full seasons. But if 5 game stretches aren't a good enough comparison for a 7 game stretch, how is a 7 game stretch a worthy comparison for an entire season?


This seems to be just quibbling. You made the assertion:
...I'm sure more than 8 players have put up these kinds of numbers over 7 games, and I'm sure the 8 you named did it multiple times and many of them had equally or even more eye-popping numbers than Tyler over a 7 game stretch as well. .. so recommend either backing it up statistically or admitting the inaccuracy. A numerically-based assertion was made to argue TTs current performance isn't as phenomenal as the OP suggested, so prove it. One would assume the data was gathered before making the assertion in the first place, so it ought to be easily provided, shouldn't it?

Steven43
02-27-2014, 02:29 PM
You are a wonderful poster because you never run a hostile point about a player into the ground. At all. You don't unnecessarily write post after post making clear your displeasure with a player. You have neither sense of entitlement nor the jejune understanding of basketball to be that type of poster.
That was a clever and funny post, Des Esseintes, though I have no idea of the definition of jejune. Still, I salute you.

Kfanarmy
02-27-2014, 02:34 PM
I KNOW what this is about. It stinks. I'm not sure what it is about, but I agree. It should be easier to celebrate a players performance, which I think was Stickdog's original intent.

Indoor66
02-27-2014, 02:35 PM
I'm not sure what it is about, but I agree. It should be easier to celebrate a players performance, which I think was Stickdog's original intent.

But that doesn't determine who has the bigger one.

Kedsy
02-27-2014, 02:46 PM
Look, the only reason I mentioned that Tyler's per 40 minute assist rate over the last 7 games is the highest on the team and comparable to that of the full season rates of Duke's best recent point guards was simply to counter the people here dismissing Tyler's amazing recent assist to turnover rate by saying that he doesn't create any assists.

OK. The only reason I mentioned that a 7 game stretch shouldn't be compared to full season numbers is because the two aren't particularly comparable. If you hadn't demanded that I give you a list of 7 game stretches matching Tyler's (a post that reinforced my view that you thought your original comparison was apt), I wouldn't have said anything further.


Do you not believe that ratio is high or something? Do you not believe it is impressive? Because in 37 years of NBA play, only one player has ever exceeded that ratio in [a] season while booking more than 176 minutes of playing time. Only 3 players have ever exceeded that ratio in a season while booking more than 100 minutes of playing time. Sure, a 16 game season is not an 82 game season, but think of all the NBA players over the last 37 seasons who have had short seasons because of injuries or because they were borderline players just trying to fit in and not make any mistakes lest they get cut from the team. Does it not impress you that Tyler's Thornton's current steal to turnover ratio in 334 minutes of ACC play is higher than all but three NBA players who booked more than 100 minutes of NBA play over the last 37 NBA seasons?

I've never really examined the steal-to-turnover ratio before but, sure, it sounds both high and impressive. I'd note, however, that Tyler hasn't actually met that ratio "in a season," either. For the full season, Tyler averages 2.35 steals per turnover, which still sounds high and impressive, though probably not historic.

Also, NBA games and stats are very different from college games and stats, so I have no idea (and please don't tell me to look it up) how often these sorts of numbers happen at the college level.


Do you not believe that ratio is high or something? Do you not believe it is impressive? Because in 37 years of NBA play, only 4 players have ever exceeded that ratio in [a] season while booking more than 300 minutes of playing time.

Of course it's also both high and impressive. But again, Tyler hasn't done it "in a season," either. His full-season a/to ratio is 4.12, which is still high and impressive, though perhaps a little less so because he only averages 2.4 apg (4.7 assists per 40). And again the NBA caveat stands.

Tyler hasn't turned the ball over very much in ACC play. I get that. Because of that it's both fun and easy to come up with amazing something-to-turnover ratios. But the problem with comparing 7 games or half a season to full seasons of players who play more games and more minutes and are expected to take more risks with the ball is those ratios will always come back to earth with just a few more turnovers, which more games and more more minutes and more risks will inevitably bring for even the best players.

I guess what I'm trying to say is it should be possible to celebrate Tyler's accomplishments without stretching the significance of those accomplishments beyond credibility.

stickdog
02-27-2014, 03:23 PM
No, it's not a full season. But it's the full ACC season to date.

Yes, the entire statistical exercise will be spoiled by Tyler's next 3 turnover game. And it is inflated by his most recent 7 assist and 0 turnover game against VT. But Tyler hasn't had a game with more than one turnover since 12/28. And that 7 assist and 0 turnover game against VT was his very last game.

I was just amazed to find that Tyler leads the entire NCAA in offensive rating in conference play only.

So I looked at his conference only assist and steal per turnover ratios and found them even more amazing.

I think I have clearly demonstrated why these ratios are so amazing. I do not have the benefit of a NCAA database I can query for historical conference only assist and steal to turnover ratios, so I instead used the means I do have available to show how crazy high those ratios are.

Why can't people just celebrate Duke basketball's unlikeliest current hero during his brief senior moment in the sun?

It's as if you think I can't see the obvious limits to Tyler's game or the intrinsically ephemeral nature of unworldly high assist/steal to turnover ratios. I can see these things perfectly.

I honestly don't know how Tyler is managing this. Is it through the sheer force of his will? Is he being magically rewarded for his amazing bball IQ? Because he certainly isn't accomplishing all this through his physical gifts or basketball talent.

I honestly don't know how he has done this, and I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop. But, since New Year's Eve, he somehow keeps doing it game after game (with the one unfortunate exception of the UNC game).

Yes, it could easily all end next game with just a single inefficient, turnover laden performance. So why not at least try to appreciate it fully while it's happening?

Kfanarmy
02-27-2014, 03:24 PM
Statistics (some of them real) from a month ago, and previous seasons, suggest TTand MP3 should have less, not more, playing time. We'll let you know when the anomoly of more recent performances enable us to suggest that their game has changed significantly enough to recommend decreasing their playing time, notwithstanding the deceiptful direction, positive though it may be, this blip suggests they are headed.

(a bit of humor/sarcasm is included here). Its ok to admit someone's performance exceeds your expectations.

stickdog
02-27-2014, 03:28 PM
For curiosity's sake, I ran the numbers of how Duke and Duke's opposition have been performing on a points per 40 minutes basis with Tyler on and off the court over Duke's last 7 games.

This includes the UNC game in which Tyler performed very poorly and had his worst plus/minus performance of the season.

Over Duke's last 7 games, Duke's per 40 minute game score with Tyler in the game is 71 to 55.

Over Duke's last 7 games, Duke's per 40 minute game score with Tyler out of the game is 75 to 73.

If you pull Tyler's utterly terrible game against UNC out of the equation, the numbers become much more flattering to Tyler.

Over Duke's last 6 games other than the UNC debacle, Duke's per 40 minute game score with Tyler in the game is 74 to 52.

Over Duke's last 6 games other than the UNC debacle, Duke's per 40 minute game score with Tyler out of the game is 71 to 75.

jv001
02-27-2014, 03:35 PM
For curiosity's sake, I ran the numbers of how Duke and Duke's opposition have been performing on a points per 40 minutes basis with Tyler on and off the court over Duke's last 7 games.

This includes the UNC game in which Tyler performed very poorly and had his worst plus/minus performance of the season.

Over Duke's last 7 games, Duke's per 40 minute game score with Tyler in the game is 71 to 55.

Over Duke's last 7 games, Duke's per 40 minute game score with Tyler out of the game is 75 to 73.

If you pull Tyler's utterly terrible game against UNC out of the equation, the numbers become much more flattering to Tyler.

Over Duke's last 6 games other than the UNC debacle, Duke's per 40 minute game score with Tyler in the game is 74 to 52.

Over Duke's last 6 games other than the UNC debacle, Duke's per 40 minute game score with Tyler out of the game is 71 to 75.

Man, I sure wish Tyler had played better against the tar heels :cool:. I'll be hoping for great games for TT against Wake and unc. GoDuke!

greybeard
02-27-2014, 03:55 PM
Watch this Man's carriage amidst so many very, very talented teammates, throughout a game that necessarily presents many unwanted outcomes. Watch as the bar that defines exceptionalism for Duke basketball rises, and than rises some more. Tyler Thornton is college basketball's current best story. It will not likely be told. It certainly hasn't been here.

Kedsy
02-27-2014, 04:00 PM
Watch this Man's carriage amidst so many very, very talented teammates, throughout a game that necessarily presents many unwanted outcomes. Watch as the bar that defines exceptionalism for Duke basketball rises, and than rises some more. Tyler Thornton is college basketball's current best story. It will not likely be told. It certainly hasn't been here.

Seriously, have you been following all the other great untold college basketball stories among the 351 NCAA Division I teams this season? I haven't. I'm just wondering how you're so sure Tyler is the best.

stickdog
02-27-2014, 04:10 PM
Well, it's a pretty damn good and definitely unlikely story, it's currently happening on the team we all root for, and there's a long lull between games ...

Kedsy
02-27-2014, 04:11 PM
For curiosity's sake, I ran the numbers of how Duke and Duke's opposition have been performing on a points per 40 minutes basis with Tyler on and off the court over Duke's last 7 games.

I used to study plus/minus numbers for Duke's players, and Tyler has often had pretty good plus/minus numbers. I stopped talking about plus/minus, though, when people around here emphatically and continually said how meaningless a statistic it is, especially over only one or a few games. And then after Pomeroy wrote an article disparaging plus/minus, that was more or less the death knell for that particular stat. But I've always secretly thought it was interesting anyway.

niveklaen
02-27-2014, 04:15 PM
Seriously, have you been following all the other great untold college basketball stories among the 351 NCAA Division I teams this season? I haven't. I'm just wondering how you're so sure Tyler is the best.

Over his last 9 games, London Perrantes of UVA has 33 Assists to 4 turnovers and is 10 for 21 from 3. Hopefully the Cav's fans are celebrating that.

stickdog
02-27-2014, 04:23 PM
Somebody is telling that story (http://www.dailyprogress.com/cavalierinsider/ratcliffe-perrantes-provides-near-perfect-performance-for-virginia/article_6cc17ca6-9f61-11e3-a994-0017a43b2370.html).

Kedsy
02-27-2014, 04:30 PM
Over his last 9 games, London Perrantes of UVA has 33 Assists to 4 turnovers and is 10 for 21 from 3. Hopefully the Cav's fans are celebrating that.

And (now that you mention it) over the last 14 games his a/to numbers are 58 to 9. Over the 9 game span that's 4.75 assists per 40 and an 8.25 a/to ratio. Over the 14 game span, it's 5.62 assists per 40 and a 6.4 to 1 a/to ratio. Still not quite as good as Tyler, but qualitatively similar, especially considering its more games and he plays more minutes (30.9 mpg in last 9 games; 29.5 in last 14 games) than Tyler (26.3 mpg in last 7 games).

Both players are hot right now.

Listen to Quants
02-27-2014, 06:03 PM
I used to study plus/minus numbers for Duke's players, and Tyler has often had pretty good plus/minus numbers. I stopped talking about plus/minus, though, when people around here emphatically and continually said how meaningless a statistic it is, especially over only one or a few games. And then after Pomeroy wrote an article disparaging plus/minus, that was more or less the death knell for that particular stat. But I've always secretly thought it was interesting anyway.

Plus/minus alone is weak (imagine the plus/minus [okay, minus] of the poor slob who subbed in for Jordan/Russell/Chamberlain). But the idea is so fundamentally excellent that I am with you on remaining loyal to the stats principle. Surely, corrections could help. I haven't looked, but a +/- corrected for the other players on the court with the player in question would be a start.

greybeard
02-27-2014, 08:00 PM
Seriously, have you been following all the other great untold college basketball stories among the 351 NCAA Division I teams this season? I haven't. I'm just wondering how you're so sure Tyler is the best.

If you turn the question back on yourself you will have the answer. If you read every comment about Tyler these last four years, you will find your way towards the answer. If you take a step back and really look at the comments, the analysis presented in this thread, you will find your way towards the answer. After you do that, we'll talk. Peace.

vick
02-27-2014, 10:55 PM
Plus/minus alone is weak (imagine the plus/minus [okay, minus] of the poor slob who subbed in for Jordan/Russell/Chamberlain). But the idea is so fundamentally excellent that I am with you on remaining loyal to the stats principle. Surely, corrections could help. I haven't looked, but a +/- corrected for the other players on the court with the player in question would be a start.

This is the way +/-, or "adjusted plus minus," is generally used in the NBA*, and it tends to generate results that satisfy the old Bill James (I think) maxim that a stat should mostly but not completely confirm things you already know. The problem is an NBA season has far more possessions--ballpark 8000 per season vs. around 2000 for college, and college has a lot more blowouts against weak competition.

* There's also some statistical voodoo that's often done to "regularize" the results to prevent very small sample size issues--like two players who almost always play together except for a couple of minutes--from blowing up the results.

vick
02-27-2014, 11:07 PM
This is the way +/-, or "adjusted plus minus," is generally used in the NBA*, and it tends to generate results that satisfy the old Bill James (I think) maxim that a stat should mostly but not completely confirm things you already know. The problem is an NBA season has far more possessions--ballpark 8000 per season vs. around 2000 for college, and college has a lot more blowouts against weak competition.

* There's also some statistical voodoo that's often done to "regularize" the results to prevent very small sample size issues--like two players who almost always play together except for a couple of minutes--from blowing up the results.

Replying to myself, and tying this back to Tyler, one way to estimate adjusted plus-minus is to use the results of a regression from pace-neutral stats on players' adjusted plus-minus results. As you might expect, you can capture a lot of offensive value from the box score but rather less for defense. Anyway, this metric (http://godismyjudgeok.com/DStats/aspm-and-vorp/ncaa-advanced-statistical-plus-minus-and-vorp/) really likes Tyler, largely because steals are so heavily correlated with being a good player from a +/- perspective.

throatybeard
02-27-2014, 11:43 PM
If you turn the question back on yourself you will have the answer. If you read every comment about Tyler these last four years, you will find your way towards the answer. If you take a step back and really look at the comments, the analysis presented in this thread, you will find your way towards the answer. After you do that, we'll talk. Peace.

What does this even mean?

Des Esseintes
02-27-2014, 11:59 PM
What does this even mean?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzm8kTIj_0M

throatybeard
02-28-2014, 12:11 AM
Man, that takes me back to Village of the Damned.

greybeard
02-28-2014, 12:36 AM
What does this even mean?

It means that this guy is performing at the vortex of the team, doing what he normally does, see my gazillion posts over the years and critiques in the multiple gazillions, and ask your how this guy is still growing each game in performance and importance, steps up at crucial moments, sets the tone and style, especially in the face of unwanted outcomes, shoots a shot from 3 that had to have been taught him by a man from Mars that goes in 50 plus percent of the time, and has earned his place at the helm of this extremely talented team that everyone wrote off only how can you write off a team when a captain comes off the bench hitting 3 3 threes in a row with a style that none of us has seen. Tyler chose this style because he developed it and it works, not because it looks good. It insults other teams, he steps in, glides, does not look to elevate or even bring the ball up to his forehead or higher. He shoots it from the hip, there is nothing a defender can do to disrupt the shot or his vision, if there is he does not shoot it, and he is killing people with it. Okay, come prepared for Parker and Hood and Rasheed and Dawkins, deal with ugly and deadly. Deal with me. Get through me. Or not. And, if not, trouble. Big, big trouble. Just one story in a much, much bigger one.

This guy who has the heart of a lion, the wiles of his coach, the calm of a warrior, commands the respect of his teammates, this guy who has delivered in victory and defeat with the same I-see-it-I-do-it all out because I trust me and my boyz on every play, gets ignorned by the world and torn apart, relatively speaking, by some fans who would not see exceptionalism if it hit them in their heads which it has.

Now, on a division III program that would be one thing. But, Thornton has been doing this for 4 years now on the biggest stage imaginable, and, aside from an occasional platitude which is really another way of saying "we don't know what he is doing out there so we'll throw him a bone because, hey, we do not know enough to argue the point with K. This year he has been emerging ever stronger right in the vortex of a team that more and more grows in a way that shows great promise; at least it deserves great respect. And, still, There is Parker, and Hood, and Amile, and Rasheed, and Plumlee, and Cook, and Dawkins but it is a no talent that people are still trying to pick apart who has been quietly putting up staggering numbers while giving this team a personality, and what a personality it is.

So, what are Thornton's defining qualities. "The elements [a]re so mixed in him that nature might stand up and say to all the world, 'this [I]s a man.'" Syracuse has a spectacular talent, Ennis. Duke has Thornton. Defines the two programs exactly doesn't it.

The irony is that not a head has picked up on it. In this thread, many have. To them I say, Duke.

Steven43
02-28-2014, 01:02 AM
It means that this guy is performing at the vortex of the team, doing what he normally does, see my gazillion posts over the years and critiques in the multiple gazillions, and ask your how this guy is still growing each game in performance and importance, steps up at crucial moments, sets the tone and style, especially in the face of unwanted outcomes, shoots a shot from 3 that had to have been taught him by a man from Mars that goes in 50 plus percent of the time, and has earned his place at the helm of this extremely talented team that everyone wrote off only how can you write off a team when a captain comes off the bench hitting 3 3 threes in a row with a style that none of us has seen. Tyler chose this style because he developed it and it works, not because it looks good. It insults other teams, he steps in, glides, does not look to elevate or even bring the ball up to his forehead or higher. He shoots it from the hip, there is nothing a defender can do to disrupt the shot or his vision, if there is he does not shoot it, and he is killing people with it. Okay, come prepared for Parker and Hood and Rasheed and Dawkins, deal with ugly and deadly. Deal with me. Get through me. Or not. And, if not, trouble. Big, big trouble. Just one story in a much, much bigger one.

This guy who has the heart of a lion, the wiles of his coach, the calm of a warrior, commands the respect of his teammates, this guy who has delivered in victory and defeat with the same I-see-it-I-do-it all out because I trust me and my boyz on every play, gets ignorned by the world and torn apart, relatively speaking, by some fans who would not see exceptionalism if it hit them in their heads which it has.

Now, on a division III program that would be one thing. But, Thornton has been doing this for 4 years now on the biggest stage imaginable, and, aside from an occasional platitude which is really another way of saying "we don't know what he is doing out there so we'll throw him a bone because, hey, we do not know enough to argue the point with K. This year he has been emerging ever stronger right in the vortex of a team that more and more grows in a way that shows great promise; at least it deserves great respect. And, still, There is Parker, and Hood, and Amile, and Rasheed, and Plumlee, and Cook, and Dawkins but it is a no talent that people are still trying to pick apart who has been quietly putting up staggering numbers while giving this team a personality, and what a personality it is.

So, what are Thornton's defining qualities. "The elements [a]re so mixed in him that nature might stand up and say to all the world, 'this [I]s a man.'" Syracuse has a spectacular talent, Ennis. Duke has Thornton. Defines the two programs exactly doesn't it.

The irony is that not a head has picked up on it. In this thread, many have. To them I say, Duke.

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=209411052

Read this article and you will have a new level of respect and appreciation for Tyler Thornton and what he brings to Duke University. I just read it and it had that effect on me.

Indoor66
02-28-2014, 08:00 AM
It means that this guy is performing at the vortex of the team, doing what he normally does, see my gazillion posts over the years and critiques in the multiple gazillions, and ask your how this guy is still growing each game in performance and importance, steps up at crucial moments, sets the tone and style, especially in the face of unwanted outcomes, shoots a shot from 3 that had to have been taught him by a man from Mars that goes in 50 plus percent of the time, and has earned his place at the helm of this extremely talented team that everyone wrote off only how can you write off a team when a captain comes off the bench hitting 3 3 threes in a row with a style that none of us has seen. Tyler chose this style because he developed it and it works, not because it looks good. It insults other teams, he steps in, glides, does not look to elevate or even bring the ball up to his forehead or higher. He shoots it from the hip, there is nothing a defender can do to disrupt the shot or his vision, if there is he does not shoot it, and he is killing people with it. Okay, come prepared for Parker and Hood and Rasheed and Dawkins, deal with ugly and deadly. Deal with me. Get through me. Or not. And, if not, trouble. Big, big trouble. Just one story in a much, much bigger one.

This guy who has the heart of a lion, the wiles of his coach, the calm of a warrior, commands the respect of his teammates, this guy who has delivered in victory and defeat with the same I-see-it-I-do-it all out because I trust me and my boyz on every play, gets ignorned by the world and torn apart, relatively speaking, by some fans who would not see exceptionalism if it hit them in their heads which it has.

Now, on a division III program that would be one thing. But, Thornton has been doing this for 4 years now on the biggest stage imaginable, and, aside from an occasional platitude which is really another way of saying "we don't know what he is doing out there so we'll throw him a bone because, hey, we do not know enough to argue the point with K. This year he has been emerging ever stronger right in the vortex of a team that more and more grows in a way that shows great promise; at least it deserves great respect. And, still, There is Parker, and Hood, and Amile, and Rasheed, and Plumlee, and Cook, and Dawkins but it is a no talent that people are still trying to pick apart who has been quietly putting up staggering numbers while giving this team a personality, and what a personality it is.

So, what are Thornton's defining qualities. "The elements [a]re so mixed in him that nature might stand up and say to all the world, 'this [I]s a man.'" Syracuse has a spectacular talent, Ennis. Duke has Thornton. Defines the two programs exactly doesn't it.

The irony is that not a head has picked up on it. In this thread, many have. To them I say, Duke.

Well said, Grey one. It seems that often we get lost in the forest of detail and fail to see the whole of the canvas.

jv001
02-28-2014, 08:44 AM
http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=209411052

Read this article and you will have a new level of respect and appreciation for Tyler Thornton and what he brings to Duke University. I just read it and it had that effect on me.

A great article on a great young man. The comment I liked was when he said he wanted to represent his family, represent the school and Duke tradition and represent Coach for giving him the opportunity to play at Duke. A player that thanks his coach for giving him the chance to play, not a player that thinks he's doing the coach a favor by attending Duke University. Here is a young man that's not blessed with God given talent that others possess. But through hard work and dedication to Duke University, has made himself a very valuable player and teammate. He has the heart of a champion and no one gives more on the court than Tyler Thornton. GoDuke!

Indoor66
02-28-2014, 06:46 PM
Well said, Grey one. It seems that often we get lost in the forest of detail and fail to see the whole of the canvas.

I just love to mix metaphors. :cool:

Kedsy
02-28-2014, 06:49 PM
I just love to mix metaphors. :cool:

I just figured you were trying to speak greybeard's language. :p

greybeard
02-28-2014, 09:23 PM
Grey-speak? No way I would try for it. I just think of it as a gift. :o