Is it time to crack down on college bball coaches riding refs?

[Billy Dat]

CBS' Eye on College Basketball podcast had a discussion of the Boeheim meltdown, specifically whether or not it is time to crack down on this kind of behavior from college basketball coaches?

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/24455793/eye-on-college-basketball-podcast-sideline-antics-need-to-stop

They make a few really compelling points:

-Basketball is unique in the coaches have much closer physical proximity to the officials than any other sport. These refs have to run directly past them constantly. As we've seen with Jaime Dixon, the coach can literally be yelling in a directly ref's ear during game action.

-NBA coaches do not behave nearly the same as college coaches. They make their points, but it is not as constant and unyielding as college coaches.

-Most of the top college coaches act this way - K, Cal, Huck Hound, and on down the list. It is basically accepted behavior.

-If a player did what Boeheim did, let's say CJ Fair, the press/fan reaction would have been 5x as bad. In that way, there is a pretty serious double standard.

I had never really thought about it, but I think they make a good point. While I have always appreciated K's berating of refs because I felt it gave us a competitive advantage, when I step back, it's pretty disturbing, and I am not even privvy to what he is saying. But, I assume he doesn't cover his mouth because he's saying "Da Gum".

The advent of social media has really brought out the ugly in people. Maybe it is time to take a stand for decorum and try to curb some of this stuff. What say you?

[cruxer]

I'm just listening to this podcast too, and I have to say I agree. Coaches certainly can get their points across to refs without the sort of berating we've all become accustomed to and accept. Coach K even changes when he coaches internationally. You don't see him do it!

Odd that it's such a part of the culture in big-time college basketball.

[WillJ]

I've long thought that many college basketball coaches are admired and rewarded for a persona that really shouldn't be tolerated - and I would include Coach K in that group. Coach K is a great guy on many dimensions, has done an incredible amount for Duke, and is obviously loved by his players, but his on-sideline behavior is quite often over the top, IMO. I wish he would calm down just a bit sometimes. I admire Bill Self's sideline demeanor.

[FerryFor50]

They already cracked down on this in the NBA. Time to do it in college, too...

[Lord Ash]

I think it is important for outsiders to remember that refs and coaches DO have a very involved and deep relationship. While we might see mostly the yelling, there is a TON of communication that happens there, and usually a LOT of mutual respect. So I think we should remember that when discussing the communication between coach and ref.

[RoyalBlue08]

I have always been surprised something isn't done to clean up the coach/ref interaction. It would just take a quick rule change and coaches would back off if they were faced with a T for yelling at the refs. No coach is going to voluntarily dial it back because they believe (whether correctly or incorrectly) that hounding the refs for the entire game yields a them an advantage in the close calls. I much prefer the NBA game in this regard in which the coaches know they can't get away with this crap.

[Native]

Sure. I can always get 'em, anyway. K needs to focus more on the game and leave Hess and Co. to me.

[throatybeard]

I think Krzyzewski has mellowed a lot compared to earlier in his career. Remember that watching a game on TV ≠ being at the game. Every time he gets up, ESPN is going to cut to him, and that can give you a false impression of how he's acting over two hours. 96% of the time, he's sitting next to Wojo, smelling his own finger.

[Bob Green]

It is part of the game. If a coach gets out of hand, T them up and then throw them out. Each case has to be judged on its individual merits. Boeheim deserved to be tossed. El Deano from the Final Four, probably not.

[sagegrouse]

"Working the refs" is not the same thing as "berating the refs."

K and the good ones try to have a continual dialogue on the flow of the game, establishing a rapport that comes into play when the coach is truly exercised about something.

It works because college hoops tolerates it; because K has a longstanding relationship with most of the senior officials; and, quite frankly, because K is the most famous basketball coach in the universe -- I.e., its flattering to talk with K.

Stopping all contact is totally different from "cracking" down on the abusive treatment of officials by coaches. That move would constrain and limit the range of conversation but not end it.

[Billy Dat]

It is part of the game. If a coach gets out of hand, T them up and then throw them out. Each case has to be judged on its individual merits. Boeheim deserved to be tossed. El Deano from the Final Four, probably not.

Right, but the question is whether or not it's risen to the level of absurdity. Coaches getting on refs is part of every game, but it seems like college basketball coaches have a license to go way beyond other sports. What we currently view as "normal" is maybe way too far. Maybe a new normal needs to be enforced.

[MartyClark]

I think it is important for outsiders to remember that refs and coaches DO have a very involved and deep relationship. While we might see mostly the yelling, there is a TON of communication that happens there, and usually a LOT of mutual respect. So I think we should remember that when discussing the communication between coach and ref.

I've never had the opportunity to sit close enough to hear K's interaction, or any coach for that matter, with the refs. I suspect a few of you have those good seats and can hear what's going on. What have you heard? How would you describe K's interaction with the refs?

[Bob Green]

Maybe a new normal needs to be enforced.

Good point! I've got no problem conceding the point coaches need to be reined in a bit. I don't like it when they venture onto the court like Jamie Dixon does all game long.

[johnb]

When I watch football at all levels, I am most worried about the physical damage.

When I watch basketball at all levels below that of the NBA, I am most impressed by the extent to which fans/coaches are bad sports. Every call and non-call is met with derision. It's funny at Cameron but, in general, it seems like it's encouraging whininess. This is especially noticeable when I've watched jr high and high school games in which parents spend the whole screaming at refs. nasty.

If T'ing up coaches helps the overall sportsmanship level, go for it.

[bedeviled]

In the officiating.com link -jk provided after the Syracuse block/charge fiasco, there was this comment (http://forum.officiating.com/basketball/97351-video-request-syracuse-vs-duke-video-4.html):

Hats off to the basketball ref for tossing the coach. All baseball umpires are proud of you, for doing what we do all season long. Let that be a lesson for the rest of you hoopsters. Don't allow those guys to yell at you from point blank range.
Honestly, could you imagine ANYTHING like this happening at your place of work!?!?

Really, though, I'm just posting because this is the only suitable place where I can say that I wish Leonard Hamilton was my dad. How cool is he?

[Acymetric]

I think Krzyzewski has mellowed a lot compared to earlier in his career. Remember that watching a game on TV ≠ being at the game. Every time he gets up, ESPN is going to cut to him, and that can give you a false impression of how he's acting over two hours. 96% of the time, he's sitting next to Wojo, smelling his own finger.

I've been lucky enough to see a lot of games in person over the last ~20 years, and I think this is spot on. He definitely still does his thing from time to time, but look back 10-15 years and I think you'll see a guy that was much more animated and "in your face" with the refs on a regular (maybe even near constant at times) basis.

[jv001]

When I watch football at all levels, I am most worried about the physical damage.

When I watch basketball at all levels below that of the NBA, I am most impressed by the extent to which fans/coaches are bad sports. Every call and non-call is met with derision. It's funny at Cameron but, in general, it seems like it's encouraging whininess. This is especially noticeable when I've watched jr high and high school games in which parents spend the whole screaming at refs. nasty.

If T'ing up coaches helps the overall sportsmanship level, go for it.

Having coached young men in the past(football, baseball & basketball), I have to say that dealing with parents of kids(that can do no wrong) was far worse than dealing with the refs and the opponent. GoDuke!

[Highlander]

Reminds me of the legendary story of Hurley getting T'd up. Don't know how accurate it is, but it has an air of truthiness to it:

Basically a controversial foul call occurs in the game against Duke. Hurley goes up to the ref and tells him he got the call wrong, that it should be a foul on the other team.

Ref calmly reasserts his call and says "No, foul on Duke."

Hurley goes to talk to Coach K. On his way back by the Ref, he tells him, "Sorry, but my coach said that call was bull ****."

Technical on Hurley.

Still makes me smile, because I could totally see it happening.

As an aside, does anyone find it unusual that in 35 years on the bench, Coach K has NEVER been tossed from a game?

[weezie]

...does anyone find it unusual that in 35 years on the bench, Coach K has NEVER been tossed from a game?

Really?! I thought he had been a few years back. Guess that serves to show that he's never wrong about what happens on the court, so there.

How about our new pal Boeheim getting all rear hurt during last night's post-terp presser, barking that md had 25 free throws and that Turgeon had no right to whine. This is going to be fun, having our Jim in the league, isn't it? ;)

[andyw715]

Reminds me of the legendary story of Hurley getting T'd up. Don't know how accurate it is, but it has an air of truthiness to it:

Basically a controversial foul call occurs in the game against Duke. Hurley goes up to the ref and tells him he got the call wrong, that it should be a foul on the other team.

Ref calmly reasserts his call and says "No, foul on Duke."

Hurley goes to talk to Coach K. On his way back by the Ref, he tells him, "Sorry, but my coach said that call was bull ****."

Technical on Hurley.

Still makes me smile, because I could totally see it happening.

As an aside, does anyone find it unusual that in 35 years on the bench, Coach K has NEVER been tossed from a game?

Bobby just got one, 20-some years later :)
Coaching at my school *SUNY Buffalo*

http://www.hustlebelt.com/mac-basketball/2014/2/2/5372068/bowling-green-pulls-out-upset-win-over-buffalo

[Billy Dat]

Pat Forde weighs in on this topic in the first half of his weekly "Forde Minutes"

https://sports.yahoo.com/news/forde-minutes--blame-the-jim-boeheims--not-the-refs-073009838-ncaab.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

[flyingdutchdevil]

Pat Forde weighs in on this topic in the first half of his weekly "Forde Minutes"

https://sports.yahoo.com/news/forde-minutes--blame-the-jim-boeheims--not-the-refs-073009838-ncaab.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

My favorite quote from the article:


If you blame the refs when your team loses, you are a loser.