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DevilYouthCoach
02-23-2014, 12:57 AM
What is the ACC rule on coaches commenting about officiating to the media?

I know ACC coaches typically avoid it, and I was under the impression that it was because it would result in an automatic suspension, but I must admit ignorance to the actual rule, or where to find it.


I don't know what the ACC rule is, but I know that the rule of tradition is that one does NOT criticize the calls publicly to the media, no matter how egregiously bad they are. Undercutting the referee shows complete disrespect for the game of basketball. I am disappointed that Coach K did not call Boeheim out on that matter. Every kid who has ever played this game would argue calls with a ref until closing time IF he or she were allowed to do so. They are not allowed to do so!

I watched Boeheim's press conference and the jokey way that he handled his atrocious on-court behavior was worthy of a snarky teenager, not a respectable coach. He should have been sent to his room, and HE WAS! AND THE POOR GUY LOST THE GAME FOR HIS TEAM! An important game, no less. Can you imagine if he acted this way in the Olympics? What a #$&%$!!

Troublemaker
02-23-2014, 01:14 AM
Props to those in the pre-game thread who suggested Hood for high-post duties. You were right and I was wrong. As Coach K mentioned in the postgame, Syracuse adjusted their zone to stick with Duke's shooters when the ball was entered to Amile or MP3, and therefore Duke needed Rodney to step up in the high post role, which he did. I was impressed with Rodney's ability to juke and drive from the high post to draw fouls and score at the basket, in addition to his ability to hit the midrange jumper. Jabari did a nice job hitting 3s to allow Rodney to be able to play the high post. Unless Duke goes small against zone, Jabari hitting 3s is always going to be a key factor to give Rodney room to operate from the high post.

Similar to how Syracuse adjusted their zone for this game, according to Coach K, Duke also made some defensive adjustments on how we played ball screens, which helped to shut down Cuse's guards. Neither Coach K nor Boeheim could've been happy with his team's defensive numbers in the first game, so it makes sense that this second game was going to be more of a defensive battle after some appropriate adjustments were made. Maybe in the 3rd meeting, it'll become more of an offensive battle again.

Speaking of a possible 3rd meeting, apparently America thinks the Orange would win (http://espn.go.com/espn/fp/flashPollResultsState?sportIndex=frontpage&pollId=4201527). Well, 49 out of 50 states do, actually. I'm linking this poll mostly because I got a chuckle out of the lone blue state being Utah. It took me a few seconds to put it together as to why Utah was voting Duke.

Dr. Tina
02-23-2014, 01:23 AM
One negative from tonight. Seeing the morons who claim to be Duke fans going after Gbinjie on twitter.

I did respond to "Gbinije's" tweets. The only thing I feel like a "moron" about is that I forgot that Gbinije has had issues when it comes to Twitter. Namely, someone usually poses as G on there. I discovered this when he was at Duke and reported it actually, but I had forgotten.

As for the rest, I really don't feel bad and it doesn't make me any less of a Duke fan than anyone else. Oh, BTW - I have no problem with the Cameron Crazies saying "we don't miss you"...because let's be real...why would we? He didn't play much for Duke. He didn't want to be at Duke. We're supposed to cut him slack? Really?

g-money
02-23-2014, 01:46 AM
After seeing the replay, I think the call was still close, but I'd lean toward the charge call. I'd have preferred not to have the call happen there at all because of the "Duke gets all the calls" refrain, but I don't care. I'll take it. It's "basketball justice."

Yep, as a longtime Duke fan I've developed pretty thick skin. Did we benefit from some "home cooking" tonight? Perhaps. But so did Syracuse at their place.

I am all for improving the refereeing in college basketball. I would argue that the post-Donaghy NBA has shown that it's possible for this to be achieved. But until it happens, quite frankly I hope we get every home court call we can!


I do wish Andre could see a few more minutes, though.

Agreed - I wish Andre's minute count was a bit higher. Defenses are keying on him when he's in now, but that's a good thing in terms of opening up space for the other guys. I'm not a stats guy but I would wager that Duke's offensive efficiency goes up quite a bit when he's on the court.

It's great that we made it through the gauntlet at 2-1. I'm feeling pretty good about our chances to win out the rest of the regular season and get a bye for the ACCT. Not to worry, I am knocking on wood as I type.

kAzE
02-23-2014, 01:54 AM
Speaking of a possible 3rd meeting, apparently America thinks the Orange would win (http://espn.go.com/espn/fp/flashPollResultsState?sportIndex=frontpage&pollId=4201527). Well, 49 out of 50 states do, actually. I'm linking this poll mostly because I got a chuckle out of the lone blue state being Utah. It took me a few seconds to put it together as to why Utah was voting Duke.

Wow, I'm actually surprised at that, but I guess having 6 losses on your resume will do that. Syracuse could easily have 5 or 6 losses as well, but speaking strictly about our match ups, we won this one and we SHOULD have won the first one too. They were both close games, but we match up pretty well with them and our style of defense really shuts down their guards. There's no way they score so easily down the stretch and in OT of that first game if Jefferson and Parker were available, and now we've got a 3rd option the the paint with Plumlee. Not to mention, if we shoot like we normally do, they have a really tough time stopping us. They stayed home on all our shooters this game, so the middle was wide open all game long and as a result, we got their bigs in foul trouble. If they do next time, I fully expect us to take advantage with Parker and Hood in the high post, and if they collapse again, we'll kill them from deep. Our players are too skilled offensively for that defense now that we know how to attack it. The best way to stop us is to switch up defenses constantly like UNC (gotta hand it to Roy), and Syracuse plays the same D every minute of every game. I dunno about Vegas, but I think smart money would be on Duke if we meet up for round 3.

Dr. Tina
02-23-2014, 02:04 AM
Did Fair think Boeheim's outburst cost Syracuse the game? Fair paused, then told a group of reporters: "Yeah."

"Maybe if we didn't get the tech we might get the chance to win," he said. "What did we lose by, five? (The Orange lost by six.) He made three of four free throws. You do the math." - ESPN.com

At least C.J. Fair has some sense in his head....

I'm really fired up after this W because I think it's doing a disservice to the game and how hard Duke played to win to define this game by the ref's charge call. It was a player control foul, so all we would have had was the ball back. That's it! There was plenty of time for Cuse to make a stop. We had a lousy 50% on FTs for the game. It was Boeheim's over-the-top reaction that hurt Cuse....NOT the ref! Nobody is responsible for Boeheim's actions but him. He was halfway out on the court, telling the ref that the call was "bullI'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this." (sound familiar?) and to F.U. and everything else. You can't do that and not expect to receive a consequence of some kind. Then, I listen to Boeheim's presser and he blames the outcome of the game on the charge call. He takes no responsibility for his actions after said call. He says the game was "over" based on that call alone. So, I guess he doesn't trust his team to find a way to win? Even if they've proved they can with far less time on the clock? WOW! Way to pass the buck, Boeheim!

It certainly wasn't our best game, but we did enough right to get the W. We kept Cuse to 38.7% on FG, while we shot 47.9%. We kept Ennis to 9pts w/ 2-13 on shooting and Cooney to 4pts w/ 1-5 on shooting. We took Christmas and Keita out of the game by getting them into foul trouble. Cuse's rebound advantage was only +4 for the game. I doubt it would have even been that close if Marshall Plumlee hadn't developed leg cramps.

Jabari had a good game, even though I have felt like he hasn't had the ball enough in the past 2 games. At times, I thought he was trying to do too much by making a flashy move, which cost us on TO's. Good decision to put Hood in the middle of the 2-3 zone. I thought he played really well. MP3 was a BEAST and I loved it. I liked our D on Ennis and Cooney. We attacked enough to hurt their big guys, too. I thought we played with a lot more heart and toughness in this game than we did in Chapel HIll.

Amile needed to be more aggressive when he got the ball in the paint. He looked like he didn't know what to do as opposed to showing some of the moves he has in previous games. The horrendous Flagrant 1 call on Dre hurt us because he effectively had to sit out the rest of the 1st half. He wasn't allowed to bounce back from those early misses. Quinn continues to drive me crazy. I have a real love/hate relationship with him. I feel like he's too inconsistent at this point in his college career. Quinn and Sheed passing the ball back and forth was so ineffective. I know K said we were tired, but I think the stall ball really hurt us. Sheed and Quinn weren't getting anyone the ball. They wound the clock so far down that we settled for crappy shots. Our free throw shooting was so horrendous!

The atmosphere in Cameron was electric! Great support for our guys. I'm not sure why the Crazies are getting crapped on for their response to Gbinije. Saying "we don't miss you" is pretty mild. G chose to leave Duke. I don't think the fact he's a former Duke player should make him immune to Crazie comments. What would you prefer them to say? Or do you think they shouldn't say anything at all?

And, finally, I am so proud of Coach K's reaction after the CUSE game because he epitomized class in his response to the no-call on Hood whereas Boeheim just made himself look like more of a tool than he already did by losing his head out there on the court. K and Boeheim are friends and all, but I'm so happy he's not our coach.

kAzE
02-23-2014, 02:40 AM
I am so proud of Coach K's reaction after the CUSE game because he epitomized class in his response to the no-call on Hood whereas Boeheim just made himself look like more of a tool than he already did by losing his head out there on the court. K and Boeheim are friends and all, but I'm so happy he's not our coach.

Agreed . . Coach K is the man, and he acts like one. I thought the way the game was officiated was extremely satisfying because of the way it went up at Syracuse. Christmas fouls out Parker and Jefferson on 2 flops, and then in this game, Parker gets him and Keita in foul trouble. Hood gets shafted on a no call that could have won us the game, and then draws the charge call in this one to win the game. How's that for poetic justice?

brevity
02-23-2014, 02:50 AM
As for the rest, I really don't feel bad and it doesn't make me any less of a Duke fan than anyone else. Oh, BTW - I have no problem with the Cameron Crazies saying "we don't miss you"...because let's be real...why would we? He didn't play much for Duke. He didn't want to be at Duke. We're supposed to cut him slack? Really?


The atmosphere in Cameron was electric! Great support for our guys. I'm not sure why the Crazies are getting crapped on for their response to Gbinije. Saying "we don't miss you" is pretty mild. G chose to leave Duke. I don't think the fact he's a former Duke player should make him immune to Crazie comments. What would you prefer them to say? Or do you think they shouldn't say anything at all?

Sorry, just trying to decide which version of the exact same statement I like better: the first one, or the one 41 minutes later.

ice-9
02-23-2014, 03:47 AM
The difference is that it takes a lot of ball movement to get the zone out of sync. You can't do that in 12 seconds.

I was thinking about this in light of boheim's comments about stall ball. We did try to play stall ball and it wasn't as effective as it normally was.

It's not that it can't be done against a zone I don't think, it's just more that it has to be done a bit differently vs a man-to-man. In man-to-man a basic pick and roll play can result in a shot in just a few seconds, but there's no sure fire quick way to get a similar shot off against a zone.

Maybe stall ball against a zone is three or four quick passes with less than 10 seconds left and then committing to a shot no matter what it is -- ie three pointer, shot from free throw line or drive. Quick pass pass pass shot kind of rhythm.

This could definitely have worked. For example, Syracuse was leaving Parker open for the corner three all game long.

NashvilleDevil
02-23-2014, 05:59 AM
I did respond to "Gbinije's" tweets. The only thing I feel like a "moron" about is that I forgot that Gbinije has had issues when it comes to Twitter. Namely, someone usually poses as G on there. I discovered this when he was at Duke and reported it actually, but I had forgotten.

As for the rest, I really don't feel bad and it doesn't make me any less of a Duke fan than anyone else. Oh, BTW - I have no problem with the Cameron Crazies saying "we don't miss you"...because let's be real...why would we? He didn't play much for Duke. He didn't want to be at Duke. We're supposed to cut him slack? Really?

I said nothing at all about what happened in Cameron. It was only the people blasting him on twitter and doing it as Duke fans that bothered me.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-23-2014, 06:09 AM
That wasn't a good zone, that is a GREAT ZONE! It's darned near impenetrable. It's wicked hard to pass through or over it. And syr is quick, quick, quick on their shift and surge. We were actually terrific at being patient with it.

Clearly we are terrible against the zone. We took Syracuse to OT the first round, then beat the #1 team in the nation on our home floor. If we can onky beat the #1 team in the nation's zone defense, how can we ever expect to....

Oh wait.

Great win. I we lose this game, I could have seen a real confidence crisis sticking around into mid-March. Beating #1 should alleviate that. The idea of being #1 is that no one is supposed to beat you. Especially after the epic week that Duke had.

I will address that block/charge call tbat everyone is up in arms about. It was maybe a 50/50 call I would say. Anyone who is saying emphatically that it was "clearly" one way or the other might not have watched much ball this year. I think that in years previous before all the rule and interpretation changes it would have been maybe 80/20, but I would not have been shocked either way.

What does shock me is Jim B's reaction. There is no way that was a calculated reaction - it literally cost them a chance in a very close game. I heard his post-game presser, and while he did stand by his opinion of a terrible call, he looked rather mortified and contrite. I like B, and I know he and K have a special relationship. I would love to be a fly on the wall for their next chat.

Really, I hate that the game ended that way. I feel like it cheated fans of both teams from the suspenseful final moments we all deserved.

Now, as far as all the outrage over the media's word usage in headlines? I. Don't. Care. I don't see how you can get riles up over referring to it as a "contreversial ending." It sure was. When on coach flips his lids, gets 86'd and steals the team's chance at victory arguing a judgment call by the ref, that is the definition of contreversy.

Is it USSR/USA basketball? Of course not. But even if the ref made the right call, you cannot pretend that the last 10 seconds weren't outrageous and sensational.

So, I don't care what ESPN says. They can say we stole the game on a terrible call. We beat the number one team and defended our home floor. We re-established some much needed momentum, and ought to be favored in our remaining regular season games. Then, we start tournament season, and might face Syracuse one or two more times. They won three weeks ago. We won last night.

Go Duke.

dukelifer
02-23-2014, 06:27 AM
Wow, I'm actually surprised at that, but I guess having 6 losses on your resume will do that. Syracuse could easily have 5 or 6 losses as well, but speaking strictly about our match ups, we won this one and we SHOULD have won the first one too. They were both close games, but we match up pretty well with them and our style of defense really shuts down their guards. There's no way they score so easily down the stretch and in OT of that first game if Jefferson and Parker were available, and now we've got a 3rd option the the paint with Plumlee. Not to mention, if we shoot like we normally do, they have a really tough time stopping us. They stayed home on all our shooters this game, so the middle was wide open all game long and as a result, we got their bigs in foul trouble. If they do next time, I fully expect us to take advantage with Parker and Hood in the high post, and if they collapse again, we'll kill them from deep. Our players are too skilled offensively for that defense now that we know how to attack it. The best way to stop us is to switch up defenses constantly like UNC (gotta hand it to Roy), and Syracuse plays the same D every minute of every game. I dunno about Vegas, but I think smart money would be on Duke if we meet up for round 3.
I think Duke matches up well with them as well- mainly because of the second guard. UNC is a tougher matchup for Duke. Cuse will be in every game they play- but they are not a dominating team- even against the weaker teams.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-23-2014, 06:34 AM
For what it's worth to all you media gawkers out there, Huffington Post's headline how reads "Syracuse Coach Flips Out," and not "Controversial Call Causes Syracuse Coach to Flip Out."

Hope that calms everyone down.

Go Duke!

MChambers
02-23-2014, 06:35 AM
I had a problem with the officiating tonight. We were getting hammered at the rim on baskets and missed shots without anything being called. It was probably the same, but to a lesser degree, with Syracuse. Those plays would be called fouls in the NBA every single time.
This.

I was surprised how much contact was not called down low. I remember a Hood drive to the basket late in the first half where he and a Syracuse player collided (the Syracuse player was moving), Hood scored, and nothing was called. And a Sulaimon drive on the fast break where Cooney tried to slap the ball away as he went by, but made a lot of contact, Sulaimon scored, and nothing was called. And late in the game, Parker scored, and Bilas talked about how he "finished through contact", but never discussed the last of a whistle.

On the other side, Fair missed a dunk attempt in the first half, and I thought Plumlee fouled him. Didn't cause the miss, because Fair took off too far away from the basket, but it still was a foul.

CLW
02-23-2014, 06:42 AM
Well I'm sure it has been discussed ad nauseam by now but I thought Fair caught the ball out of bounds and it was missed and I thought Rodney blocked on the play. Of course the game wasn't over at that point until Boeheim ran out on the court and forced the Ts.

The officiating in the NCAA is just an absolute joke. One need only compare the Hood attempted dunk/no foul called with the exact same play with Parker at CIS and its called a foul.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-23-2014, 06:44 AM
Leaving behind for a moment the final ten seconds of the game, I was very pleased to get the win - only the second home victory over a #1 under Coach K (boy, that just seems so unlikely, doesn't it?).

The only troubling thing I saw over and over (and keep seeing glimpses of in the highlights) was it seemed very frequently when our slashers would cut towards the basket with the ball, they got stripped. Was this something specific to Syracuse's zone? It felt like our guys were running backs playing against the Seahawks defense that tries to swat the ball out of your hands every time they tackle you.

Any insight as to why this might have been effective against us last night? Felt like it happened over and over.

oldnavy
02-23-2014, 06:58 AM
"The Call"... obviously a hard call, boom-boom type play. Really doesn't seem to be any different to me than just about 90% of block charge calls...

Two HOF coaches see it different, so it is no wonder there is widespread disagreement.... I tell you what, I'll give you the two points for CJ's layup, if you'll give me the two points for the FT's on the intentional call.... deal???

Here's a novel idea... since there was no advantage gained by Hood on the "charge".... don't call anything, award him the basket.... AND, since there was no advantage gained by Dawkins on the CRAZY intentional foul call... don't call anything....

Two great examples of what I see as over officiating this year....

Funny thing, JB in his presser said he hated to see that call determine the game.... thing is, that call didn't game was still very much in doubt, your lack of self control is what determined the game Jim... you need to own that.

Saratoga2
02-23-2014, 07:04 AM
Clearly we are terrible against the zone. We took Syracuse to OT the first round, then beat the #1 team in the nation on our home floor. If we can onky beat the #1 team in the nation's zone defense, how can we ever expect to....

Oh wait.

Great win. I we lose this game, I could have seen a real confidence crisis sticking around into mid-March. Beating #1 should alleviate that. The idea of being #1 is that no one is supposed to beat you. Especially after the epic week that Duke had.

I will address that block/charge call tbat everyone is up in arms about. It was maybe a 50/50 call I would say. Anyone who is saying emphatically that it was "clearly" one way or the other might not have watched much ball this year. I think that in years previous before all the rule and interpretation changes it would have been maybe 80/20, but I would not have been shocked either way.

What does shock me is Jim B's reaction. There is no way that was a calculated reaction - it literally cost them a chance in a very close game. I heard his post-game presser, and while he did stand by his opinion of a terrible call, he looked rather mortified and contrite. I like B, and I know he and K have a special relationship. I would love to be a fly on the wall for their next chat.

Really, I hate that the game ended that way. I feel like it cheated fans of both teams from the suspenseful final moments we all deserved.

Now, as far as all the outrage over the media's word usage in headlines? I. Don't. Care. I don't see how you can get riles up over referring to it as a "contreversial ending." It sure was. When on coach flips his lids, gets 86'd and steals the team's chance at victory arguing a judgment call by the ref, that is the definition of contreversy.

Is it USSR/USA basketball? Of course not. But even if the ref made the right call, you cannot pretend that the last 10 seconds weren't outrageous and sensational.

So, I don't care what ESPN says. They can say we stole the game on a terrible call. We beat the number one team and defended our home floor. We re-established some much needed momentum, and ought to be favored in our remaining regular season games. Then, we start tournament season, and might face Syracuse one or two more times. They won three weeks ago. We won last night.

Go Duke.

Jim is obviously a very good coach, but does his reaction surprise me. Not really, as a friend of mine has known Jim since middle school. He doesn't care much for Jim so it might color his assessment. He says Jim was always kind of an elitist and mama''s boy who thought very highly of himself. He said he always had that attitude that he was beyond reproach. Well last night he flipped and it did cost his team any chance. Was the call marginal. Yes, but not the worst call anyone had ever seen. It was more like a 50/50. The techs on Jim was 100/0 as he virtually begged for ejection.

Matches
02-23-2014, 07:06 AM
I view what Boeheim did as the equivalent of pulling his team off the court and forfeiting the game to protest the call. Which is stupid because the game was still in the balance when he exploded. I guess emotion can get the better of any of us on a given night, but I'm surprised to see a HOF coach lose it like that.

And I know it's not Boeheim's job to complain about calls that favor his team, but Cuse has gotten a TON of favorable calls in key situations this year, including of course the non-call on Hood at the Carrier Dome. He looks ridiculous losing his lid like that when one finally doesn't go his way. I mean, Mark Gottfried managed to avoid making a fool of himself after last weekend's debacle. Ponder on that - Boeheim couldn't comport himself with as much composure and class as Mark Gottfried did.

Anyway, its weird but if you'd told me we would go 3-1 during this stretch and let me pick which game we lost, I would've picked UNC. And I hate hate hate losing to UNC, but somehow losing either this one or the Maryland game would've stung worse.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-23-2014, 07:07 AM
Jim is obviously a very good coach, but does his reaction surprise me. Not really, as a friend of mine has known Jim since middle school. He doesn't care much for Jim so it might color his assessment. He says Jim was always kind of an elitist and mama''s boy who thought very highly of himself. He said he always had that attitude that he was beyond reproach. Well last night he flipped and it did cost his team any chance. Was the call marginal. Yes, but not the worst call anyone had ever seen. It was more like a 50/50. The techs on Jim was 100/0 as he virtually begged for ejection.

I would love for some of our Orange visitors to weigh in. Imagining if K did something similar - would we praise him for standing up for our guys? Or start to wonder if he was losing it after an emotionally difficult season..

devilnfla
02-23-2014, 07:32 AM
I tend to agree with most all of what you've said here but would also like to point out that on the Sulaimon play you reference (where he sort of scooped the ball to a cutting Hood for a much-needed hoop), Rodney was clearly fouled by Jerami Grant. Grant had his arms up but then lowered them and made a LOT of contact with Hood - so much so that Rodney almost missed the chippie and the ball bounced on the rim a couple times before falling in. It happened at the 2:50 mark if anyone wants to go and look. Should have been an "And 1" situation. Just interesting that everyone is focused on the charge Rodney drew (and yes, it WAS a charge) and not some other plays that the refs CLEARLY blew that could have helped Duke out way more than that charge at the end.

Jabari's put back dunk was an and one too that wasn't called.

Deslok
02-23-2014, 07:41 AM
Re: The Call
I do think it was borderline. But it wasn't borderline block/charge... it was borderline charge/no call. Especially with the lack of body to body contact with the side step, I could easily see that call not being made and the basket counting with no foul on the play. I think calling it a blocking foul would have been silly and continued Syracuse's string of generous end of game whistles this season. All in all, the two teams played 2 exceptional games this season, and I think a split is actually a fair representation of how the two teams have done against each other. Now lets just take the ACC tourney to settle any doubts on the better team. Very proud of the effort by our players last night.

Duke76
02-23-2014, 07:44 AM
Well I'm sure it has been discussed ad nauseam by now but I thought Fair caught the ball out of bounds and it was missed and I thought Rodney blocked on the play. Of course the game wasn't over at that point until Boeheim ran out on the court and forced the Ts.

The officiating in the NCAA is just an absolute joke. One need only compare the Hood attempted dunk/no foul called with the exact same play with Parker at CIS and its called a foul.

can anyone post a pic of his feet or foot being out of bounds...we'd like to see

Saratoga2
02-23-2014, 07:44 AM
This was a momentous period closing with the second Syracuse game and I thought we ought to bring the phase report back but couldn't find it going back to 5 on our list.

During this phase, we have seen the emergence of Marshall. One of the greatest team needs was for a large center who could compete with big and tough inside players. We could see last night that it wasn't Amile's forte and it is a misuse to saddle Jabari with that duty. Well, when given the opportunity and when healthy, Marshall fills that void.
1)
He is a legitimate 6'11" and probably close to 260 and is athletic. What he brings to the offense:

Good at setting screens
Handles the ball fairly well and doesn't have a high number of turnovers
Good at offensive rebounding
Can score inside on dunks if dished the ball inside

On Defense:
Can alter and block shots, although I would like to see him try to block even more
Boxes out very well
Hedges well and gets back quickly
Brings a high energy to the game
Is hard for bigs to move closer to the basket

Is he raw? Sure. Can he shoot free throws? Not so good. Does he have any other moves to the basket? Unknown at this point. My guess is that isn't being encouraged.

2) Jabari's game is getting more versatile. He is hitting from outside and in. Very tough to stop. He is rebounding very well with a passion and his defense is improving.

3) Rodney is also coming back into form and between he and Jabari, they can make zone defenses pay when catching the ball at the foul stripe.

4) Guards are playing solid defense, although our slashing and finishing is not a strong point.

Moving forward, we need to work on FT shooting as it shouldn't desert us in key games. Were we tired or didn't we spend time on that with all the game pressure this past week?

Offense from our guards has fallen off With the exception of Quinn's good game against UNC,they haven't been seen as much of an offensive threat. Andre hasn't lit it up so we have to make due with average production from our guards and leave the main scoring to Jabari and Rodney. Maybe going back to the platoon during the brief period of easier games will get our guards offense back to outstanding.

Duke76
02-23-2014, 07:50 AM
Given, evidently, my need to get a life, and a metaphysical joy from winning this game, I have read every post on this post-game thread. I promise I will not rehash the obvious charge call, the phantom call on Andre, the hammering that our [and sometimes SU's] drivers experience without calls, our drought on the free throw line and our paltry 3 pt shooting, and also our tenacious defense, MP3's game-changing [IMO] big man presence and energy, and our showing heart in the final minutes. I was also encouraged by Jabari's elevating his game from that of a weak, young player [in Coach K's words]in the first half to playing like a very skilled and tough man in the 2nd. This was a very, very good and important win for us.

Given all the obvious givens, including that we have a HOF coach, and world-class coaching staff, who have also had Jim B, World Class Zone Meister, as an assistant coach at the NBA level, WHY DO WE SEEM SO UNPREPARED AND INEPT AT FACING GOOD ZONES??!! This is not a one day preparation issue!! This is not a last minute defense innovation!! The alert reader will notice my over the top ALL CAPS and double exclamation points, and I kinda apologize, but not really. I am channeling my inner JB. I just don't get it. Yes, we did well for stretches last night against the zone. Those several possessions when Rodney was receiving the ball [in a rather loose, spread out 2-3 zone], were exhilarating!! [sorry] I was thrilled by this elevation of offense, compared with our past performances against the zone, including last Thursday against Carolina. And when Syracuse made a rather predictable adjustment -- crimping the middle and pushing it higher -- we seemed befuddled. As numerous posters have mentioned, we did the Cook to Sheed pass around until the shot clock winded down and we made bad, desperate shots. Occasionally, we would get the ball to the guy in the middle, but he didn't seem to know what to do with it -- after SU's adjustment. And my eyeballs told me that we didn't know what to do. Our guards seemed truly baffled. I would think that by now our vaunted coaching staff would have "how to beat a good to great zone" totally in the skill set of our guys.

So much I love and appreciate about our team, our guys and our coaches. But why aren't we great against the zone?

Asked with genuine perplexity, concern and all due humility.

Also, I also hate stall ball with about 4 minutes to go. For one thing, it takes athletes too much out of their intuitive processing and too much into conscious thinking. Same reason great athletes miss a lot of free throws. And in this situation, I feel that we had the advantage if we attack, because of our driving prowess and their foul trouble. But I digress.

Great win tonight. Go Duke!

He played all of eight minutes...none in the second half. Why did Coach k not have confidence in him to bust that zone...he can shoot from farther out than any other guys, shoots a better percentage, his defense has improved? puzzling to me...Coach has the quickest hook on him I have ver seen...miss two shots he's out...

Troublemaker
02-23-2014, 07:54 AM
Wow, Marshall Plumlee has really advanced quickly. If he continues his great play of the last few games, he could easily see the 15+ minutes per game for which many around here have been clamoring.

The coaches and training staff have really done a great job bringing Marshall along this season. This is how I always imagined things would play out since the preseason, that MP3's minutes would gradually increase as the season progressed as he gradually re-gained his skills and athleticism after offseason surgery. He's now playing at the level of the projected 6th or 7th man from last season, pre-injury.


America thinks the Orange would win (http://espn.go.com/espn/fp/flashPollResultsState?sportIndex=frontpage&pollId=4201527). Well, 49 out of 50 states do, actually. I'm linking this poll mostly because I got a chuckle out of the lone blue state being Utah. It took me a few seconds to put it together as to why Utah was voting Duke.

Looks like Idaho just turned blue as well. In case anyone's stumped like I originally was, Utah and Idaho have the highest percentage of Mormons in their population out of all the states in the country. Mormons love Jabari like we love Jabari.



Anyway, its weird but if you'd told me we would go 3-1 during this stretch and let me pick which game we lost, I would've picked UNC. And I hate hate hate losing to UNC, but somehow losing either this one or the Maryland game would've stung worse.

As distasteful as any loss to UNC is, they were the only team we could lose to down the stretch of this season and still conceivably get a 1 seed on Selection Sunday. We couldn't get swept by Syracuse, especially since they are a direct competitor for the 1 seed. And losing to any other team (MD, GaTech, VaTech, Wake) would constitute a bad loss in the eyes of the committee. Finally, without winning the regular season, we absolutely have to win the ACC Tournament to get a 1 seed. So let's win out from here and see what happens.

Furniture
02-23-2014, 07:57 AM
I think the team did great in this game! I don't know why but I didn't get too stressed during the game and always felt Duke were going to win. I guess the kids had "it"......

Papa John
02-23-2014, 07:57 AM
Don't get me wrong - I am not saying Boeheim "knew it was a good call." I think he genuinely thought it was a bad call. My point is that Boeheim has no history of simply losing control of himself in a game, and it is more likely that he deliberately behaved the way he did to get a technical in order to make a point to the officials about Duke getting the benefit of a bad call, and that he concluded that that point was more important than letting his team still have a slim chance to win the game.

Which would make him an idiot... His team still legitimately has a chance of winning the game, and Boeheim blows his stack, thereby ending it. You can dress that pig up all you want, but it wasn't strategic or tactical in any way. It was a spontaneous emotional response made without considering the consequences... And Boeheim does have a history of doing that--have you ever watched his press conferences?

Furniture
02-23-2014, 08:00 AM
I really haven't been able to stomach Jay Bilas for quite some time now. Well, let me amend that slightly. He gives fairly well-reasoned takes in most of the interviews I hear, but his obvious anti-Duke bias, his smugness and arrogance, and his occasional sucking up to UNC is just more than I can take.

Somebody has to give me some history here. Jay went to Duke why would he hate Duke? He has a job on TV I would think he has to safeguard his job appear a little unbiased.

Troublemaker
02-23-2014, 08:03 AM
He played all of eight minutes...none in the second half. Why did Coach k not have confidence in him to bust that zone...he can shoot from farther out than any other guys, shoots a better percentage, his defense has improved? puzzling to me...Coach has the quickest hook on him I have ver seen...miss two shots he's out...

For one thing, Cuse wasn't really leaving shooters in this game, except for Jabari. But more importantly, I think Duke's plan was to use the defensive-minded rotation of Quinn, Sheed, and Tyler to completely bottle up Cuse's guards. And Rodney was busy with CJ Fair.

I think generally Andre should play more minutes but I'm okay with his minutes in this game. He'll get more going forward and probably more in the Syracuse rematch as well. But you're right, he has to hit shots.

Troublemaker
02-23-2014, 08:07 AM
Somebody has to give me some history here. Jay went to Duke why would he hate Duke? He has a job on TV I would think he has to safeguard his job appear a little unbiased.

Jay loves Duke. Some of our fans are just crazy idiots for thinking he's Anti-Duke, is all.

DukieInBrasil
02-23-2014, 08:16 AM
This may negate the entire charge call debate.

CJ Fair, right before his baseline drive.

3946

couldn't get that angle from any video i could get ahold of, but that view is very definitive. Negates the whole charge/block debate. So, Boeheim, is it still REALLY the worst call of the year? when mere seconds prior a super-obvious, super-easy call was totally missed?

davekay1971
02-23-2014, 08:21 AM
couldn't get that angle from any video i could get ahold of, but that view is very definitive. Negates the whole charge/block debate. So, Boeheim, is it still REALLY the worst call of the year? when mere seconds prior a super-obvious, super-easy call was totally missed?

Unfortunately the court of instant news/social media rendered the verdict and it is now irreversible: Syracuse got hosed. Duke still gets all the calls. Please don't ask our ADD population to actually look at any real analysis of that call, or any number of other blown/missed calls in this game or other games. Why ruin an easy, lazy theory with actual facts?

jipops
02-23-2014, 08:26 AM
couldn't get that angle from any video i could get ahold of, but that view is very definitive. Negates the whole charge/block debate. So, Boeheim, is it still REALLY the worst call of the year? when mere seconds prior a super-obvious, super-easy call was totally missed?

It wasn't super obvious or super easy because it was so quick. But it was missed nonetheless. Make that call and there is zero controversy.

sagegrouse
02-23-2014, 08:33 AM
Unfortunately the court of instant news/social media rendered the verdict and it is now irreversible: Syracuse got hosed. Duke still gets all the calls. Please don't ask our ADD population to actually look at any real analysis of that call, or any number of other blown/missed calls in this game or other games. Why ruin an easy, lazy theory with actual facts?

I dunno, DK, Jeff Goodman on ESPN said he agreed with the call.

If you accept that Rodney's little shuffle did not alter his "legal guarding position," I thought he was there in plenty of time. IOW he was in LGP and remined there.

Also, I love hearing the argument, "Let the players not the refs determine the outcome." Hoo, boy! Where does that lead? Hard fouls, mayhem or murder?

Another point would be, "If you are down two points on an opponent's home court with a few seconds remaining, maybe there was something you could have done in the first 39+ minutes that would have put you in a better position."

And, ah yes, "Scoreboard!" More seriously, this is another argument for a conference tournament to settle things.

Kindly, Sage

killerleft
02-23-2014, 08:34 AM
Having had the benefit of a good night's (Thanks, Mr. B!) sleep, I think there are several remarkables regarding Jimmy Boeheim:

* The call could have gone either way, so Boeheim's reaction, since he had a great view of it, was way out of character for him.

* His after-game presser description of what went down and his casual toss-off of his own behavior was almost bizarre. He had to know (even if his initial blow-up was genuine) by then that he had cost his team their chance to win the game. C.J. Fair knew.

* No logical reason exists for the post-game remarks other than some psychological advantage that Jim must feel is important.

* I'll remember Boeheim, just like he said. And if I forget, he'll be in the dictionary under 'dumbass'.

* Bright (see me, see me) Orange looks oh, so good on a losing team. More, please!:)

Great game by our guys. The mindset was excellent under trying circumstances. Marshall Plumlee is doing his Rip Van Winkle act at a great time. Saying that this win is a season-saver is perhaps overstating things, but not by much. Go Duke!!!

DST Fan
02-23-2014, 08:41 AM
On the postgame radio show with Bob Harris, K said they slowed it down because they were tired (paraphrase). Don't have the link or exact quote. In K I trust

K has been consistent with this approach over the years. Following the championship game with Louisville in 1986, he was criticized for running the shot clock down at end of the game on a number of possessions. I attended a Duke function that spring at which K spoke and he addressed the criticism with a comment along the lines of "we were tired at the end of the game and we tell our players that, when we are tired, we rest on offense not defense." Attending basketball camps in the NY metro area in the early 1970's, I heard Al LoBalbo (an Army assistant coach to Bob Knight) use that line many times and it was a basic tenet of Army basketball at the time.

killerleft
02-23-2014, 09:05 AM
Well I'm sure it has been discussed ad nauseam by now but I thought Fair caught the ball out of bounds and it was missed and I thought Rodney blocked on the play. Of course the game wasn't over at that point until Boeheim ran out on the court and forced the Ts.

The officiating in the NCAA is just an absolute joke. One need only compare the Hood attempted dunk/no foul called with the exact same play with Parker at CIS and its called a foul.

I'd vote that NCAA refs do as good a job as can be done. If slow-motion replays have done nothing else, they have shown just how impossible it is for the human eye and brain to process everything that happens in the blink of an eye and get it right more than most of the time. Even slo-mo doesn't end the controversies. The block/charge rule as enforced this year does no better job of getting the call right than any of its predecessors. Just like the silly NFL rules regarding possession of the ball, going to ground, etc. prove, there is still a decision that must be made, and the decision is made no easier by artificially delaying that decision. If Christian Laettner, the NCAA tournament's best ever performer, could have a bad game, then it stands to reason that lesser humans, such as refs, are gonna have a few, too.:)

Pearl Washington was turned into a joke, but that was Dickie V's fault, not Washington's. You know, Pearl was when Dickie V turned himself into a joke, come to think of it. Sorry, Jimmy Boeheim has tuned me against the Orange. Before his antics last night, I admired him. Maybe that's what JB wanted. An instant rivalry? Yes? Did he get paid by ESPN for doing that?

Atlanta Duke
02-23-2014, 09:26 AM
Unfortunately the court of instant news/social media rendered the verdict and it is now irreversible: Syracuse got hosed. Duke still gets all the calls. Please don't ask our ADD population to actually look at any real analysis of that call, or any number of other blown/missed calls in this game or other games. Why ruin an easy, lazy theory with actual facts?

As posted in another thread, the call was the lead on ESPN Sports Reporters

All three panelists (Bob Ryan and 2 ESPN apparatchiks) said it should have been a charge or no call

But Bob Ryan, who has seen it all, not only said it was Boeheim blowing up that cost Syracuse any chance to recover but called out Boeheim for his joking post-game demeanor that appeared to make light of his behavior. Ryan said if Boeheim did not apologize to his team for his blowup that Boeheim was remiss.

It will be interesting to see if the Boeheim meltdown may be discussed in the context of how a coach should behave, given that Marcus Smart was suspended and told he needed to control his emotions for his end of game conduct. Imagine the reaction if Smart would have laughed off his encounter with the Texas Tech fan.

drcharl
02-23-2014, 09:31 AM
Surprised about his casual attitude of self-satisfaction that came across in the post game presser but didn't hear anything about apologies to team and fans for behavior that put the game out of reach. And still haven't heard any apologies as of this morning.

howardlander
02-23-2014, 09:55 AM
If you look at their NCAA men site now, you'll notice that this article is right below the article about Boeheim's response.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/10506018/referees-made-right-call-end-syracuse-orange-duke-blue-devils-game-official-says

So they aren't totally on the "Duke gets all the calls bandwagon"

Howard

fgb
02-23-2014, 09:56 AM
I think calling it a blocking foul would have been silly and continued Syracuse's string of generous end of game whistles this season.

maybe that was the reason boheim blew his top: he believes that the games should be called consistently, and a close call at the end of a close game that didn't favor the orange was horribly inconsistent with the way end game situations have been called all season.

Rich
02-23-2014, 10:08 AM
I view what Boeheim did as the equivalent of pulling his team off the court and forfeiting the game to protest the call. Which is stupid because the game was still in the balance when he exploded. I guess emotion can get the better of any of us on a given night, but I'm surprised to see a HOF coach lose it like that.

And I know it's not Boeheim's job to complain about calls that favor his team, but Cuse has gotten a TON of favorable calls in key situations this year, including of course the non-call on Hood at the Carrier Dome. He looks ridiculous losing his lid like that when one finally doesn't go his way. I mean, Mark Gottfried managed to avoid making a fool of himself after last weekend's debacle. Ponder on that - Boeheim couldn't comport himself with as much composure and class as Mark Gottfried did.

Anyway, its weird but if you'd told me we would go 3-1 during this stretch and let me pick which game we lost, I would've picked UNC. And I hate hate hate losing to UNC, but somehow losing either this one or the Maryland game would've stung worse.

Because those games were at home and no rematch guaranteed. With Carolina we know we get a shot in Our House.

Indoor66
02-23-2014, 10:12 AM
Boeheim is a cerebral guy. He's seen everything in his career and has been in some pretty wild games (the famous 6-overtimes game comes to mind). I don't think he needs a lot of time to process a situations in end-of-game moments. As a person, he's just not a hot-head who mindlessly loses his cool.

Actually, during most of his career (prior to the past 10 years or so) he was a whiny cry baby most of the time. I saw his reaction as a reversion to his old, immature self.

moonpie23
02-23-2014, 10:13 AM
I really haven't been able to stomach Jay Bilas for quite some time now. Well, let me amend that slightly. He gives fairly well-reasoned takes in most of the interviews I hear, but his obvious anti-Duke bias, his smugness and arrogance, and his occasional sucking up to UNC is just more than I can take.

heard bilas on espy radio this morning, and he actually back tracked a bit……he said the game was changed by only one thing…..the other team's coach's behavior..

Indoor66
02-23-2014, 10:22 AM
Sorry, just trying to decide which version of the exact same statement I like better: the first one, or the one 41 minutes later.

Were you a hall monitor in your earlier days? :cool:

Dukeface88
02-23-2014, 10:34 AM
If you look at their NCAA men site now, you'll notice that this article is right below the article about Boeheim's response.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/10506018/referees-made-right-call-end-syracuse-orange-duke-blue-devils-game-official-says

So they aren't totally on the "Duke gets all the calls bandwagon"

Howard

I honestly think Boeheim did us a favor. Most of the coverage I've seen has been to the effect of "Duke wins after Syracuse coach flips out (due to foul call)" instead of "Duke wins because of foul call". Haters still be hating, of course, but anyone just skimming the headlines isn't going to connect it to the "Duke gets all the calls" nonsense.

BD80
02-23-2014, 10:42 AM
... Boeheim said the reason Syracuse was able to get back in the game late was because Duke slowed down its offense and was running the shot clock down so much they weren't getting good shots. ...

The tactic would have been masterful if we make close to a normal % of FTs.


... Boeheim's ... been coaching basketball for 40 years, ...

... there was a realistic chance he could still win the game, but the odds are against it with Duke up 2 and the ball with 10 seconds left on Duke's home court. ...

The way Duke was shooting FTs, odds weren't against


It's actually not tough to get that open corner 3. You just have to pass the ball quickly from the top to the wing to the corner. Don't dilly-dally with it. That's one of the easy ways to beat the zone. Move the ball quickly before the zone can recover.

You can also then get the ball into the paint from the corner if you make a third quick pass. It takes discipline and organization, but when you're a good 3pt shooting team there is ALWAYS a way to get the ball into the paint against a zone (as long as the zone is willing to pressure the perimeter).


True. But we do have a Hall of Fame coach who undoubtedly understands how to beat a 2-2-1 zone. You can call a timeout, draw up that play pretty quick, and send them back out there. If it doesn't work, we're no worse off than simply tentatively passing it around the perimeter and shooting a contested shot at the buzzer.

The Syracuse zone isn't the defense you might see down at the YMCA. It is advanced. The defenders playing the zone know better than the offense how to beat their zone, and are anticipating the next pass or two. In theory, a quick perimeter pass leads to a quick entry pass to the high post which leads to a quick pass to the corner. HOWEVER, quick passes don't allow for calm assessment of the passing lanes, and Syracuse loves to jump those lanes. Hesitation by the offense closes off the lanes, leaving only the "tentative" passes around the perimeter. Sure, it could have been crisper, but the players still have to be in position to receive a pass before the pass is thrown.

If beating Syracuse's zone is so easy, why doesn't it get beaten easily?

LBF
02-23-2014, 10:58 AM
Jay loves Duke. Some of our fans are just crazy idiots for thinking he's Anti-Duke, is all.

He is not anti-duke but he goes way too far to appear unbiased. It's obvious.

ABF
02-23-2014, 11:02 AM
I want to take a moment out of the Charge v. Block analysis to say I think Hood's actions in setting up the charge (and I fall into the charge camp) were incredibly gutsy and just plain awesome. It has to take no small degree of skill to move that quickly and hold your stance, preparing for the onslaught of a giant guy slamming into you....or moving around you and scoring as you remain in place. It was a critical move in the closing seconds of this game. I love this guy and am so happy he's playing for Duke.

He gets the Shane Battier Award for the game.

ElSid
02-23-2014, 11:14 AM
Worth noting that Fran McCaffrey had a similar outburst for Iowa this year and got suspended a game. Fat chance of that happening to second most winningest coach ever Jim B.

He looked out of bounds. It wasn't an obvious call. Plenty of other tough calls in the game (Dawkins flagrant hello?).

Jabari and Hood coming up huge this game to carry us. Hood in high post is really tough to stop and cuse seemed to take that away from us in the last part of the second half.

Jabari bad turnovers only knock on him.

Short bench. No Jones. Very little Dawkins.

ncexnyc
02-23-2014, 11:28 AM
Like they say in the Kia commercial, "How you like me now?" Yes I'm talking to those of you who scoffed at the notion the Marshall's minutes would go up to the 10-15 minute range. Funny how everyone was so concerned about Jabari wearing down if he was saddled with playing the 5. Looks like we should have been more worried about Amile, as his production seems to be taking a hit from banging with the bigs. Mark this down. Before the end of this season Marshall will start a game.

Bruise Brother #1 continues to have a solid close to his senior season. Tyler continues to come up game after game with several heady plays. I'm just sorry Bruise Brother #2, has been relegated to the bench. Josh always gives 100%, but at this level now that others with superior talent are getting up to speed with our system his minutes are rapidly vanishing.

Duvall
02-23-2014, 11:35 AM
I honestly think Boeheim did us a favor. Most of the coverage I've seen has been to the effect of "Duke wins after Syracuse coach flips out (due to foul call)" instead of "Duke wins because of foul call". Haters still be hating, of course, but anyone just skimming the headlines isn't going to connect it to the "Duke gets all the calls" nonsense.

No, we are seeing both stories, with the call getting far more coverage than an end-of-game turnover would warrant.


Boeheim is smart - don't look for Jabari or Amile to finish a third matchup in the ACC Tournament.

MChambers
02-23-2014, 11:36 AM
I want to take a moment out of the Charge v. Block analysis to say I think Hood's actions in setting up the charge (and I fall into the charge camp) were incredibly gutsy and just plain awesome. It has to take no small degree of skill to move that quickly and hold your stance, preparing for the onslaught of a giant guy slamming into you....or moving around you and scoring as you remain in place. It was a critical move in the closing seconds of this game. I love this guy and am so happy he's playing for Duke.

He gets the Shane Battier Award for the game.
Or maybe the Brian Davis award, from the 1991 nationals semifinals.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-23-2014, 11:36 AM
Like they say in the Kia commercial, "How you like me now?" Yes I'm talking to those of you who scoffed at the notion the Marshall's minutes would go up to the 10-15 minute range. Funny how everyone was so concerned about Jabari wearing down if he was saddled with playing the 5. Looks like we should have been more worried about Amile, as his production seems to be taking a hit from banging with the bigs. Mark this down. Before the end of this season Marshall will start a game.

How about instead of beating your chest, we just all appreciate his development and contributions? He is playing really well.

sporthenry
02-23-2014, 11:56 AM
I think Boeheim has a better chance of getting suspended for the comment about Maryland. Response to playing at Maryland on Monday, “We know how tough these next few games are. Maryland’s off today, which is quite strange. I guess they do those things down here. I don’t know. We didn’t used to do that in the other league."

I guess the ACC can't win. Now they are trying to help Maryland, the team they have been accused of screwing over. Either way, that is more damaging to the integrity of the league than calling out one "bad" call in a game.

fisheyes
02-23-2014, 12:02 PM
Too funny!

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.syracuse.com%2Forangebask etball%2Findex.ssf%2F2014%2F02%2Fsyracuses_jim_boe heim_in_memes_a_little_fun_with_photoshop_after_th e_meltdown_ag.html&h=pAQF-R-lm

...and from a Syracuse site!

sporthenry
02-23-2014, 12:22 PM
I was thinking about this in light of boheim's comments about stall ball. We did try to play stall ball and it wasn't as effective as it normally was.

It's not that it can't be done against a zone I don't think, it's just more that it has to be done a bit differently vs a man-to-man. In man-to-man a basic pick and roll play can result in a shot in just a few seconds, but there's no sure fire quick way to get a similar shot off against a zone.

Maybe stall ball against a zone is three or four quick passes with less than 10 seconds left and then committing to a shot no matter what it is -- ie three pointer, shot from free throw line or drive. Quick pass pass pass shot kind of rhythm.

This could definitely have worked. For example, Syracuse was leaving Parker open for the corner three all game long.

Just to finalize our discussion about stall ball. I think we finally went into stall ball at the 5 minute mark. You could make the case we did it in the previous 2 possessions (resulting in a missed 3 by Cook and turnover by Sheed) but that was the first time down the court where K just held his hands up (as if to say, slow down). The previous two times, he was giving out plays almost immediately.

So if you go by this is when stall ball happened, our possessions go like this. 2 quick passes which resulted in a Hood corner 3 (something everyone is clamoring for) and a put back dunk by Jabari. The next possession was Cook penetrating with the spin move and the missed floater. Cook was a bit out of control but still got a pretty good shot off. Then, the play by Sulaimon when he drove, lost it, and kicked it to Hood for a lay up. The next time down, Sheed and Cook just passed it until Cook missed a 3. Then, they went to Parker in the lane for his layup.

Then Jabari got fouled on the rebound so that was all our possessions in stall ball. So they scored 6 points in 5 possessions. And even Cook's 3 was wide open so if it goes down, I'm sure nobody complains about it. Sheed penetrated attracted the defender and Cook probably had his most open 3 of the game. So I'm not sure Duke didn't necessarily get what they want.

Honestly, I'm less afraid of Syracuse in the ACCT than UVA, at least from a defensive standpoint. Duke has had much more trouble with the pack line defense and I think for the most part, they figured out Boeheim's zone.

Buckeye Devil
02-23-2014, 12:29 PM
A couple of thoughts:

1) I get the "let the players decide the game" philosophy to a point. But in a sense, regardless of time remaining in a game, if a call for a foul needs to be made shouldn't it be called? Why is that different than say a traveling call? Should a traveling call be ignored in order to let the players decide the game?

2) Timing is everything. Such a call in the middle of a game likely would be relatively obscure.

3) One call rarely, if at all, should be blamed for a loss. One could often point to careless turnovers, easy shots that were missed, bad FT shooting, defensive lapses, etc. that are much more responsible for losses than a bad call.

For Boeheim to blame losing on one call is ridiculous and he should know that. How well did some of his big guns shoot?

Duke4life92
02-23-2014, 12:36 PM
Hood had his feet set before Fair took off. Had his body been stationary, it should be a charge. But his body was not stationary. He had been sliding to his right, and he continued to lean his body to his right, into Fair's path. The reason it was a block had nothing to do with his feet. It was his midsection and upper body that made it a block.

Notice that Fair didn't catch Hood in the chest. His side clipped Hood's side. And that's because Hood's upper body was sliding to the right in order to make contact. That's a block.
I'm a little late to this debate but in my opinion it was a bang bang play and they are tough calls to make but with so many non-calls missed(not dukes favor)this was,as i saw, hood in good position and the contact was made by fair right knee to hoods midsection(not his side)that is where the contact was squarely made in my opinion.

luburch
02-23-2014, 12:49 PM
In-game and post-game threads need to be changed to "Hyperbole Central"

ElSid
02-23-2014, 01:04 PM
Too funny!

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.syracuse.com%2Forangebask etball%2Findex.ssf%2F2014%2F02%2Fsyracuses_jim_boe heim_in_memes_a_little_fun_with_photoshop_after_th e_meltdown_ag.html&h=pAQF-R-lm

...and from a Syracuse site!

Really funny. Just to point out, I clicked and Facebook warned me it might not be a safe link, but it is. Worth seeing.

Dr. Tina
02-23-2014, 01:08 PM
I think Boeheim has a better chance of getting suspended for the comment about Maryland. Response to playing at Maryland on Monday, “We know how tough these next few games are. Maryland’s off today, which is quite strange. I guess they do those things down here. I don’t know. We didn’t used to do that in the other league."

I guess the ACC can't win. Now they are trying to help Maryland, the team they have been accused of screwing over. Either way, that is more damaging to the integrity of the league than calling out one "bad" call in a game.

This! I also paid attention to the digs he made against the ACC about MD not playing on Saturday. I think he should be called out on it. We have a lot of teams in our league now. The ACC schedule isn't going to be perfect. I didn't realize the Big East had such a better schedule, Boeheim! I've lost some respect for Boeheim after this last game.

Atlanta Duke
02-23-2014, 01:12 PM
If you look at their NCAA men site now, you'll notice that this article is right below the article about Boeheim's response.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/10506018/referees-made-right-call-end-syracuse-orange-duke-blue-devils-game-official-says

So they aren't totally on the "Duke gets all the calls bandwagon"

Howard

Linked article above says no fine, let alone a suspension - no surprise

The ACC on Sunday there will be no further action taken against Boeheim after he ran onto the court. Conference spokesperson Amy Yakola said the officials handled the foul, technicals and ejection on the court Saturday night and there would be nothing further to add.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/10506018/referees-made-right-call-end-syracuse-orange-duke-blue-devils-game-official-says

FerryFor50
02-23-2014, 01:24 PM
Linked article above says no fine, let alone a suspension - no surprise

The ACC on Sunday there will be no further action taken against Boeheim after he ran onto the court. Conference spokesperson Amy Yakola said the officials handled the foul, technicals and ejection on the court Saturday night and there would be nothing further to add.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/10506018/referees-made-right-call-end-syracuse-orange-duke-blue-devils-game-official-says

Wow. Nothing? Not even for criticism of the call in his presser?

Newton_14
02-23-2014, 01:28 PM
Like FerryFor50, I was fortunate enough to be there. We sat together and had a great time so that was cool Always nice to meet other DBR members in person for the first time. I got there just before 6 to pick up our tickets at Will Call, and the atmosphere was awesome. Very similar to a unc game. Got into Cameron around 6:30 and again, like outside, the atmosphere and electricity was really outstanding. As close to a unc type crowd and atmosphere as you can get. Numerous former players there, including Grant, Zoubs, Greg Koubek, Roshown Mcleoud, Steve Sweaty Johnson, several others.

Early on we just could not get stops, even though our defense was pretty solid. All the loose balls seemed to be ending up in Syracuse's hands, and we kept missing foul shots. Enter MP3 and we found new energy, and he played like a beast. Ripped down several rebounds in heavy traffic, blocked a few shots and altered others, hedged like a pro, and just played as welll as I have ever seen him play. He had one catch in the high post where he never even turned to face up and the lane was wide open. I told FerryFor50 that he should turn, drive and try to dunk, and if the coaches were telling him not to face the basket but just be a conduit for the wings then shame on them. Low and behold on his next catch he did exactly what I said he should do and drew the foul!. I thought his play, along with the defense of Tyler Thornton, helped us erase that 9 point lead Cuse had early. Too bad he had cramps in the 2nd half. Especially with Amile getting jobbed (again) with horrendous foul calls. The F1 on Andre was just plain horrible too. Sorry Boeheim, but that was the worst call of the year.

2nd half, Rodney started killing Cuse in the high post with the pump fake and drive, or the mid-range jumper. Same with Jabari. I know many have complained that we stopped doing it, but in fairness, Cuse tweaked the zone to make it really difficult to get the ball to that spot down the stretch. Great defense. Sill should have gotten Jabari and Hood more touches in those last 6 minutes. During that time though, Quinn hit two huge 3's, Jabari hit one, Jabari had the nasty follow dunk, Rasheed hit the tough mid-range jumper, fed Rodney in the post for a layup (that should have been an And-1, as Jabari's dunk should have been). Hood and Jabari both scored numerous times at the rim and took heavy contact with no call. So yeah Boeheim, I guess you did feel it was a great called game because you got every freaking call throughout the game for the most part. The Jabari fast break layup And-1 was probably a charge but karma and "basketball justice" as Ferry450 opined and all that. Especially with how the game was reffed at their place.

I had no problem with the stall ball, only the poor exectution with it on 2 or 3 of the possessions. That and missing free throws kept us from winning handily by 10 or so down the stretch. Just a big big win for our guys, especially with the debacle at unc, and playing 4 games in 7 days. Going 3-1 in those games is really a good thing especially with the one loss being the unc game, even though we hate them with passion and it stinks to lose to them. Oh, and LOL at unc storming the court. They have become the NC State from the late 70's and post-1990 to present. How embarassing.

As for the call, i thought Boeheim should have played it exactly how K played it on the Hook dunk call at their place. You let the ref know you don't like it, then try to help your team overcome it being down only 2 with 10 seconds left, and then in the presser say "it was a great game, and I am not going there" like K did. Very disappointed in Boeheim losing his mind, and throwing away any chance for his team to squeak out the win. As for ESPN, social media, fans, and the like, I could give a rip about what anyone thinks of how the game ended. The scoreboard read Duke 66 Syracuse 60 with all zero's on the clock and that is all I care about. We got the win. Screw anything else or what people think.

Finally, while our guards did not have outstanding offensive games (though Rasheed was great with 7 assists, and Quinn hit two critical shots) those kids played smothering defense all night long, and that included Andre. Cooney was totally shut down, as Tyler, Rasheed, and Andre stayed in his shorts all game long, and Cooney was sucking wind and totally gassed down the stretch. Ennis got 5 of his points on terrible calls too, as he pushed Quinn off badly on a baseline jumper and then the ref calls a foul on Quinn long after the shot left Ennis hand.. All in all our guards shut those two guys down and that was a huge factor in the win. Had we hit our normal FT percentage this game would have been won handily.

If we can take care of business Tuesday night, and then get some much needed rest, with how MP3 has stepped up his game, and we are overdue to start shooting well again, this team is going to be a force to be reckoned with from here on out. They are finally starting to learn how to play defense, and MP3 has made our interior defense much better.

Well done Devils. Great win and you fully deserved to win that game. Keep working at it boys. I like the direction we are heading in. (The second half of the unc game was a fluke/aberration/abnormal/a rivalry thing. Duke is a much better team that what was on display in the 2nd half of that game).

Go Duke!!

Edit: Forgot to add. Count me in the camp that did not like the chant at Silent G. He's a good kid, who struggled with his decision to stay or leave, and chose to leave in hopes of more PT elsewhere, and by all reports, left on good terms. Sort of like Murphy. I would rather we had shown him some love vs a taunting chant.

bluebeagle
02-23-2014, 01:34 PM
I'll have to agree with one of the earlier posters in that Jimbob had to have some motive for going postal. A guy that's won 900+ games and never been kicked out of a real game just isn't the type to do that without some reason. I don't know if he's trying to feed the Duke gets all the calls beast or what. Maybe he didn't want to lose the game by getting beat by Duke and instead decided to end it himself.

MPIII. If he doesn't get hurt he can be a real game changer come March and beyond. I shutter to think how much more advanced he would be if he had been getting Hairston's minutes the whole year. That still baffles me.

daveyro
02-23-2014, 01:35 PM
Like they say in the Kia commercial, "How you like me now?" Yes I'm talking to those of you who scoffed at the notion the Marshall's minutes would go up to the 10-15 minute range. Funny how everyone was so concerned about Jabari wearing down if he was saddled with playing the 5. Looks like we should have been more worried about Amile, as his production seems to be taking a hit from banging with the bigs. Mark this down. Before the end of this season Marshall will start a game.

Bruise Brother #1 continues to have a solid close to his senior season. Tyler continues to come up game after game with several heady plays. I'm just sorry Bruise Brother #2, has been relegated to the bench. Josh always gives 100%, but at this level now that others with superior talent are getting up to speed with our system his minutes are rapidly vanishing.

So much on this thread, appropriately, is about the end game calls. I'd like to add a little more MPIII shout out. He was doing it all in first half. Both ends of the floor As mentioned up thread, he cramped for the second half. I think this is explains why he didn't get those minutes.

I'm sure there is data that can be crunched to show the combined impact on the program from Marshall, Mason, and Miles....thanks Plumlee family.

Atlanta Duke
02-23-2014, 01:39 PM
Wow. Nothing? Not even for criticism of the call in his presser?

Whether he meant it or not (media reps burst out laughing when he said it) Boeheim may have given himself cover with this statement

"I thought the game was extremely well-officiated, as well as we've had all year. I make jokes, but that's not a joke. I thought it was tremendously well officiated - three great officials."

http://www.daytondailynews.com/feed/sports/syracuse-vs-duke-game-recap-jim-boeheim-steals-the/fYMBf/

OTOH it may just be a matter of not giving the Eeyore of coaches something else to gripe about now that he is serving hard time in the ACC

Troublemaker
02-23-2014, 01:51 PM
MPIII. If he doesn't get hurt he can be a real game changer come March and beyond. I shutter to think how much more advanced he would be if he had been getting Hairston's minutes the whole year. That still baffles me.

Well, allow me to let some light in since you are in the dark about what would have happened. MP3 would be play 0 minutes right now because he would be injured again.

I've had high hopes for MP3 since the offseason and have therefore been like a hawk reading any news about his progress throughout the season, and I've posted links on this board many times updating his progress. He began playing basketball in October and had to be gradually built up, only recently coming close to recovering his athleticism and meeting the goals that the training staff set for him. The coaches love Marshall and thought he could've been a 6th or 7th man on last year's team. Now that he's healthy and more fully recovered, we all get to enjoy seeing what that guy looks like.

gus
02-23-2014, 01:57 PM
I shutter to think how much more advanced he would be if he had been getting Hairston's minutes the whole year. That still baffles me.

If only there was some way players could improve outside of the 200 minutes per game allocated to a team. Some way they could work with the coaches in an individual way, or perhaps in mock game situations where errors could immediately be broken down and addressed. Perhaps even a way in which they could improve their conditioning and strength. This bizarro world would give the coaches a way to evaluate the players, and determine who is most most able to help the team win. Unfortunately that doesn't exist. All that can only happen in the 40 minutes of a game when the fans also get to see the team play, and those 67 extra minutes Hairston has had over Plumlee this season is the one thing keeping Marshall from being a star.

azzefkram
02-23-2014, 02:06 PM
Great win by the good guys. I was hoping for a 4-0 during this 4 games in 8 days gauntlet but 3-1 is pretty great. I have to admit I'm surprised we got the call at the end. Not that I think Rodney blocked but it seems that most refs usually swallow the whistle in those situations. It is a shame our really good performance is being overshadowed.

A huge shout out to Quinn, Sheed and Tyler for basically taking Ennis and Cooney out of the game. Perimeter D has been an issue for much of the year and the boys picked a great time to step it up a notch. Marshall played a real solid game. He had a few lapses on the defensive end but overall I really liked what he brought to the table. While I could do without the TOs, Jabari was a beast. I agree with many here who thought he should have gotten more touches when Cuse got into foul trouble. I think fatigue played a role in our shooting woes. There seemed to be a lot of shots hitting the front iron.

I wish the MotM poll had a team choice since we had so many great contributions from pretty much everyone who played.

Billy Dat
02-23-2014, 02:10 PM
Maybe this was said elsewhere in the thread, but seeing Boeheim's reaction ultimately showed me on simple thing - the dude really wanted to win that game! The fact that he was kicked out of his first regular season game - ever - is amazing. As I am sure many can attest, competing against good friends is a seriously emotional thing. K never likes to do it because so much of his edge comes from conjuring up, essentially, anger and hatred toward his opponent for that 2 hours.

So, I don't know that it could have been handled differently - the guy had an honest, essentially uncontrollable reaction that went completely against his usual behavior. Above all else, that shows how much he wanted to win that game. This instant rivalry has awesome juice.

As for the game, I hate that it ended the way it did...I'll take it though.

It still feels like we have another gear. Our defense was really good but our offense has been janky the past few games. I find myself nitpicking these guys because I feel like transcendence is possible - I take Jabari and Rodney's offense for granted because Jabari's defense and Rodney's rebounding frustrate me, I ignore Rasheed's defense because I am afraid he's going to make a bad decision going to the hoop, I ignore Quinn's in rhythm 3s that fall because he throws up one prayer in the lane that he should dump off to the big under the rim, and on and on.

Is this the year that all of the pieces literally come together for the post-season and we go from really good to great? It just feels like we can't paint a masterpiece...yet. We'll miss the front end of a one-and-one that could put the game away, we're up 4 or 6 with the ball and one bucket will seal the deal but we can't do it, or we just need 1 or 2 stops in a row and the opponent is going to break but we give up that hoop.

This year is so exciting because our ceiling is still, I think, much higher. We'll see if we can get closer to it.

alteran
02-23-2014, 02:19 PM
This ranks up there with Deano getting ejected in the waning minute against Kansas in the final 4, 1991.
What it really reminds me of is Sith Greenberg's ejection in HIS first game at Cameron.

Really odd that two coaches have been ejected in their first conference game at Cameron. I wonder if there's something about the place that adrenalizes bald guys.

MCFinARL
02-23-2014, 02:43 PM
Finally, while our guards did not have outstanding offensive games (though Rasheed was great with 7 assists, and Quinn hit two critical shots) those kids played smothering defense all night long, and that included Andre. Cooney was totally shut down, as Tyler, Rasheed, and Andre stayed in his shorts all game long, and Cooney was sucking wind and totally gassed down the stretch. Ennis got 5 of his points on terrible calls too, as he pushed Quinn off badly on a baseline jumper and then the ref calls a foul on Quinn long after the shot left Ennis hand.. All in all our guards shut those two guys down and that was a huge factor in the win. Had we hit our normal FT percentage this game would have been won handily.



I agree completely with this. I thought Andre was playing solid D on Cooney when he was in--right on him all the time. K has his reasons for allocating more or fewer minutes to Andre and I will assume they are good ones, but I have to think defensive weakness wasn't what kept him off the floor in this game--it may just have been wanting other people to be on the floor more.


Well, allow me to let some light in since you are in the dark about what would have happened. MP3 would be play 0 minutes right now because he would be injured again.



This observation really helped me see Marshall's situation through a new lens. Thanks! ;) (Can't spork you)

Dukehky
02-23-2014, 02:53 PM
I agree completely with this. I thought Andre was playing solid D on Cooney when he was in--right on him all the time. K has his reasons for allocating more or fewer minutes to Andre and I will assume they are good ones, but I have to think defensive weakness wasn't what kept him off the floor in this game--it may just have been wanting other people to be on the floor more.

I think that it's become pretty clear what is going to determine Dre's minutes. If he comes in and makes a couple plays offensively, he'll get more minutes down the stretch. Otherwise, the defensive pressure that Thornton, Quinn, and Sheed have been putting on opposing backcourts outweighs the "chance" that Dre catches fire.

So Dre is going to be one of the first subs off the bench, get a few looks, and if he knocks them down, he's going to play 15+ minutes, if he doesn't, he's not going to play as much.

I think the poor shooting this week was mostly to do with tired legs. That is understandable and maybe somewhat acceptable from 3, not from the FT line

gus
02-23-2014, 03:17 PM
So Dre is going to be one of the first subs off the bench, get a few looks, and if he knocks them down, he's going to play 15+ minutes, if he doesn't, he's not going to play as much.

This isn't the way the coaching staff looks at at all, and they've said as much. Listen to Wojo's comments going into the locker room at half time:
Q: 3 of 11 [on threes]... how do you get that percentage up?
A: It's the quality of shots. when we have good shots, we need to take good shots. We're not worried about the percentage. We're gonna make our good shots, and we have to keep taking them with confidence.

Whether Andre makes or misses his first shots won't dictate the minutes he plays the rest of the game. His hustle, his decision-making and match-ups will dictate his minutes.

ncexnyc
02-23-2014, 03:25 PM
How about instead of beating your chest, we just all appreciate his development and contributions? He is playing really well.
You're right I shouldn't be beating my chest, but the heads of those who didn't want to listen aren't available so this will have to make due. :D

CALVET
02-23-2014, 03:40 PM
You're right I shouldn't be beating my chest, but the heads of those who didn't want to listen aren't available so this will have to make due. :D

Your gloat is well deserved. If I remember correctly, the Marshall pessimism was pretty thick by some and, after all, this is an opinion forum.

bedeviled
02-23-2014, 04:11 PM
the guy had an honest, essentially uncontrollable reaction that went completely against his usual behavior. Above all else, that shows how much he wanted to win that gameThis is what I find most intriguing. His behavior is such an outlier to his usual pattern that it suggests there is something extra in play. It wasn't just a bad call to him; he even retrospectively rationalizes his behavior as being due to the "worst call of the year." I'm sure he's suffered innumberable controversial calls throughout the 38 years during which he NEVER had a similar outburst. And, I'm sure some of those calls were made in rivalry, tournament, and other emotional situations. Yet, he totally freaked out last night. It was beyond a technical; it was a spectacle!! Did he engineer a spectacle? IDK. I suppose it is possible, though I believe the something extra was more unconscious than calculated. At any rate, the severe departure from a long pattern of behavior suggests that there was *something* extra going on, consciously or not.

His explanation 1: "worst call of the year" - Overdone analysis reveals that this is clearly not true as officials can't even come to a consensus
His explanation 2: "I thought that was the game-decider" - As we have noted up-thread, the game was certainly not over. Moreover, Syracuse has recent victories despite worse situations than last night's. Objectively, there shouldn't be a reason he would think they should just pack up and go home.
His explanation 3: "I don't know if I was really thinking that much at the time" - Yet, he hasn't apologized, which figures are expected do when they go ballistic without thinking. Nothing about the situation itself suggests that his behavior was acceptable. Indeed, it may have cost them the game. Interestingly, despite saying he wasn't thinking, he also stated that he "wanted to see if I still had it in me to get out there."

To me, his rationalizations do not adequately explain his behavior, and I think he was affected by more than the game itself. This was an exceptional moment for him.

Oh, regarding the game. Meh. I didn't think Duke played that well. The game, however, was hard-fought and won, which I do believe we can be proud of. Syracuse hasn't been playing well, but I think our defense exacerbated that difficulty, particularly for their guards. Unless I was dreaming it, I believe Coach K attributed some of this to a change in the way our big men approached their guards. I don't know, and I didn't notice it in-game. I'd be curious if other people picked it up and how subtle/obvious it was.

SoCalDukeFan
02-23-2014, 04:27 PM
1. He bet on Duke and gave 5 points.

2. He needed a potty break and did not want an overtime game.

3. He thought he knew the policeman and wanted some quality time with him.

4. He has a contract with a fertilizer company and gets extra every time he says "B_______t"

5. He wanted more time on Sportscenter than Coach K.

6. First time a call every went him at the end of the game and he not know how to react.

SoCal

Karl Beem
02-23-2014, 04:44 PM
At 13:50 of the 1st half Amile was called for charging when the Cuse player had both feet in the semicircle and was under the backboard. Not a peep from the announcers. JB had the audacity to call the Hood Fair call the worst ever. Compare it to the fragrant 1 against Andre (it really stunk). Bilas even thought it wasn't even a foul. As others have at least implied, Duke Hating is big business for ESPN.

What's really funny is that Duke was favored by 6.5 last night.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-23-2014, 04:45 PM
You're right I shouldn't be beating my chest, but the heads of those who didn't want to listen aren't available so this will have to make due. :D

You mean those who didn't want to listen because we thought Coach K was paying close attention to his development and was not part of a massive conspiracy to hold him back?

Please, explain to me how his fantastic performance confirms the "Duke is holdling back MP3 intentionally" theory. I would argue that his excellent play shows that K and staff know EXACTLY what he is growing into and are eager to get him there.

18258
02-23-2014, 04:58 PM
Seen a pic where CJ Fair is standing out of bounds when he received the pass, before he made his move to the basket, its on the duke basketball facebook page, ref standing right there also

Olympic Fan
02-23-2014, 05:07 PM
Maybe this was said elsewhere in the thread, but seeing Boeheim's reaction ultimately showed me on simple thing - the dude really wanted to win that game! The fact that he was kicked out of his first regular season game - ever - is amazing. As I am sure many can attest, competing against good friends is a seriously emotional thing. K never likes to do it because so much of his edge comes from conjuring up, essentially, anger and hatred toward his opponent for that 2 hours.

So, I don't know that it could have been handled differently - the guy had an honest, essentially uncontrollable reaction that went completely against his usual behavior. Above all else, that shows how much he wanted to win that game. This instant rivalry has awesome juice.


Hate to be a geek, but watching Boeheim freak out, I thought about Ron Weasley's behavior early in the final Harry Potter book.

It's tough being jealous of a friend. Just as Ron always felt overshadowed by Harry, Boeheim has to feel overshadowed by K. Boeheim is No. 2 in all-time wins -- to K. Boeheim has been the assistant coach for two Gold Medal games -- to K (and if K had stayed retired, maybe Boeheim is the coach in Rio in '16).

Without K, Boeheim could easily be considered the greatest coach of this generation. But he's not -- K is.

That's got to hurt. And unlike Malfoy/Gary Williams, Weasley/Boeheim can't give in to his jealousy because of his freiendship ... I'm sure that's why he flipped Saturday night -- a second head-to-head win over K would have brought him the glory that he thinks is his.

(PS ... in this scenario, Roy = Cornelius Fudge)

FerryFor50
02-23-2014, 05:13 PM
Oh, regarding the game. Meh. I didn't think Duke played that well. The game, however, was hard-fought and won, which I do believe we can be proud of. Syracuse hasn't been playing well, but I think our defense exacerbated that difficulty, particularly for their guards. Unless I was dreaming it, I believe Coach K attributed some of this to a change in the way our big men approached their guards. I don't know, and I didn't notice it in-game. I'd be curious if other people picked it up and how subtle/obvious it was.

I thought Amile and MP3 did an outstanding job on the hedges . They applied good ball pressure, did not foul and even knocked the ball loose a few times. They also didn't lose their man and got back before they got a wide open layup. Some of the best hedging I've seen since Bill Murray in Caddyshack...

Oh, and for everyone's viewing pleasure, the Boeheim meme collection:

http://airballfreethrow.tumblr.com/post/77608173763

Billy Dat
02-23-2014, 05:18 PM
Hate to be a geek, but watching Boeheim freak out, I thought about Ron Weasley's behavior early in the final Harry Potter book.

It's tough being jealous of a friend. Just as Ron always felt overshadowed by Harry, Boeheim has to feel overshadowed by K. Boeheim is No. 2 in all-time wins -- to K. Boeheim has been the assistant coach for two Gold Medal games -- to K (and if K had stayed retired, maybe Boeheim is the coach in Rio in '16).

Without K, Boeheim could easily be considered the greatest coach of this generation. But he's not -- K is.

That's got to hurt. And unlike Malfoy/Gary Williams, Weasley/Boeheim can't give in to his jealousy because of his freiendship ... I'm sure that's why he flipped Saturday night -- a second head-to-head win over K would have brought him the glory that he thinks is his.

(PS ... in this scenario, Roy = Cornelius Fudge)

HA, does that mean Colangelo is Hermione? Boeheim is such a lifer that maybe he'll take over for 2020? Honestly, I don't think Boeheim has enough charisma - art of leading that team is being as big a personality as the guys on the team.

howardlander
02-23-2014, 05:38 PM
At 13:50 of the 1st half Amile was called for charging when the Cuse player had both feet in the semicircle and was under the backboard. Not a peep from the announcers. JB had the audacity to call the Hood Fair call the worst ever. Compare it to the fragrant 1 against Andre (it really stunk). Bilas even thought it wasn't even a foul. As


Yeah, when I got the chance to watch the game today, I ranked the questionable officiating moments from most egregious to least as follows:

1) Amile charging when the Cuse player was nowhere close to being outside the circle. The refs are supposed to know the rules right?
2) The flagrant file against Dawkins. What the heck was that about? He barely touched him, but at least it's a judgement call, so I didn't think it was as bad as #1
3) The block call on Gbinije against Parker. We'll take it, but I really think it was a charge.
4) C.J Fair being out of bounds before the last charge call. He sure looked out of bounds to me. It was pretty close, and he may have been in, but the referee wasn't looking. Guess they can't see everything.
5) The block charge call. Close call, not unreasonable no matter who you are rooting for and no matter how it was called.

BTW, did anyone but me notice Rasheed and Fair talking in the background while Cook was shooting the technicals? Rasheed was laughing and even Fair cracked a smile.I can imagine what he said: "Man, your coach is crazy!"

Howard

timmy c
02-23-2014, 05:47 PM
1. He bet on Duke and gave 5 points.

2. He needed a potty break and did not want an overtime game.

3. He thought he knew the policeman and wanted some quality time with him.

4. He has a contract with a fertilizer company and gets extra every time he says "B_______t"

5. He wanted more time on Sportscenter than Coach K.

6. First time a call every went him at the end of the game and he not know how to react.

SoCal

These are some good/funny guesses. Thanks.

Let me suggest one more...
7. He wanted the loss to be on him, not his players. After two losses, he needed a mia culpa in order to set the ground work for winning again.

tbyers11
02-23-2014, 06:00 PM
1) Amile charging when the Cuse player was nowhere close to being outside the circle. The refs are supposed to know the rules right?

Pretty sure the refs got this one right. The charge was drawn by the Syracuse player directly guarding Amile. There are no position restrictions on where the primary defender can draw a charge. The semicircle marks where a secondary defender (the help defender) cannot draw a charge.

Karl Beem
02-23-2014, 06:14 PM
Pretty sure the refs got this one right. The charge was drawn by the Syracuse player directly guarding Amile. There are no position restrictions on where the primary defender can draw a charge. The semicircle marks where a secondary defender (the help defender) cannot draw a charge.

What a crock! It's a zone. They were all secondary defenders. The guy closest top AJ actually moved away from him, allowing the pass to be made. Grant then moved into the circle and fell down at contact.

DU82
02-23-2014, 06:31 PM
What a crock! It's a zone. They were all secondary defenders. The guy closest top AJ actually moved away from him, allowing the pass to be made. Grant then moved into the circle and fell down at contact.

Not so. The rule states:

(Rule 10, section 1) Art. 13. A secondary defender as defined in Rule 4-35 cannot establish initial legal guarding position in the restricted area for the purpose of drawing a player control foul/charge when defending a player who is in control of the ball.

So, by inference (well, omission), a secondary defender who establishes LGP outside the restricted area is fine, and I remember, without re-watching the play, that Grant started guarding Amile outside the arc.

FerryFor50
02-23-2014, 06:37 PM
Not so. The rule states:

(Rule 10, section 1) Art. 13. A secondary defender as defined in Rule 4-35 cannot establish initial legal guarding position in the restricted area for the purpose of drawing a player control foul/charge when defending a player who is in control of the ball.

So, by inference (well, omission), a secondary defender who establishes LGP outside the restricted area is fine, and I remember, without re-watching the play, that Grant started guarding Amile outside the arc.

I felt like it was a flop. Amile isn't big enough to send a guy flying like that. And it was off a loose ball/rebound, wasn't it?

lotusland
02-23-2014, 06:51 PM
Hate to be a geek, but watching Boeheim freak out, I thought about Ron Weasley's behavior early in the final Harry Potter book.

It's tough being jealous of a friend. Just as Ron always felt overshadowed by Harry, Boeheim has to feel overshadowed by K. Boeheim is No. 2 in all-time wins -- to K. Boeheim has been the assistant coach for two Gold Medal games -- to K (and if K had stayed retired, maybe Boeheim is the coach in Rio in '16).

Without K, Boeheim could easily be considered the greatest coach of this generation. But he's not -- K is.

That's got to hurt. And unlike Malfoy/Gary Williams, Weasley/Boeheim can't give in to his jealousy because of his freiendship ... I'm sure that's why he flipped Saturday night -- a second head-to-head win over K would have brought him the glory that he thinks is his.

(PS ... in this scenario, Roy = Cornelius Fudge)

Roy = GildROY Lockehart

Karl Beem
02-23-2014, 07:26 PM
Not so. The rule states:

(Rule 10, section 1) Art. 13. A secondary defender as defined in Rule 4-35 cannot establish initial legal guarding position in the restricted area for the purpose of drawing a player control foul/charge when defending a player who is in control of the ball.

So, by inference (well, omission), a secondary defender who establishes LGP outside the restricted area is fine, and I remember, without re-watching the play, that Grant started guarding Amile outside the arc.

Oh my! Grant entered the circle from the other side of AJ. And yes, he seems to flop.

Newton_14
02-23-2014, 07:29 PM
What it really reminds me of is Sith Greenberg's ejection in HIS first game at Cameron.

Really odd that two coaches have been ejected in their first conference game at Cameron. I wonder if there's something about the place that adrenalizes bald guys.

I immediately thought of that too last night. Biggest difference is Greenburg came across at that time as a middle school coach who was in way over his head coaching a D1 team. That was my first time seeing VaTech play and my very first impression of Greenburg. On the other hand, Boeheim is a long time, well respected vet. He is notorious for being asinine in post-game pressers, but i had never seen him go nuts like that during a game.

DU82
02-23-2014, 07:32 PM
Oh my! Grant entered the circle from the other side of AJ. And yes, he seems to flop.

Could you tell me the time of the play so I can re-watch, as you're implying (well, yelling at me :) ) that I'm mis-remembering.

I had remembered that Amile crossed the key at the baseline, ran into Grant, and was called for the foul.

Karl Beem
02-23-2014, 07:51 PM
13:50 of the 1st.

SoCalDukeFan
02-23-2014, 07:52 PM
I wonder what the Crazies will have in store for JB,

SoCal

Furniture
02-23-2014, 07:58 PM
I would like to make a suggestion. Being British by nationality I have always been a little puzzled as to why a word like "bullsh*t can be removed and replaced by "I'm a real wanker for saying this". Reason being the word wanker is not very nice word and indeed it's much, much worse.

Here is a quote from Wikipedia.

"In December 2000, the Advertising Standards Authority published research on attitudes of the British public to pejoratives. It ranked wanker as the fourth most severe pejorative in English.[10] The BBC describes it as 'moderately offensive' and 'almost certain' to generate complaints if used before the watershed.[11]
In Australia, it is considered mildly offensive but is widely accepted and used in the media.[12]
Mary Cresswell, an American etymologist, describes 'wanker' as "somewhat more offensive in British use than Americans typically realize".[13] The word was used twice to comic effect in the Simpsons episode "Trash of the Titans", which caused no offence to American audiences, but prompted complaints on occasions when the episode was broadcast unedited in the United Kingdom.[14]"

I know we are in the states so let's think about the definition.

"Wanker is a term that literally means "one who wanks (masturbates)" but has since become a general insult. It is a pejorative term of English origin common in Britain and other parts of the English-speaking world, including Ireland, Australia and New Zealand. It initially referred to an "onanist" and is synonymous with the word tosser.[1]"

If I have now convinced you that it's not a nice word the I would like to suggest another word. "Plonker"
Definition.
1 • informal a foolish or inept person.

Sincerely
Martin

flyingdutchdevil
02-23-2014, 08:03 PM
1) What a game! Great defensive performance all around. I felt that Thornton, Cook, Sulaimon, and Hood did great jobs on their guys. That was an old school win. Love it!

2) Hood is the ultimate zone-buster. With his ability to hit the mid-range and given that he's 6-8, we are very lucky to have him.

3) Jabari had a fantastic offensive game. And I'm not talking about the stats (they were good too). Rather, Jabari didn't forth anything like he did at UNC. I thought Jabari looked fresh, confident, and smart. In conclusion - he talked with Coach K after the UNC game. That usually does the trick.

4) Where in God's Name did MP3 come from? I thought he played really well against UNC because of his size (and that Syracuse would eat him up), but I am gladly wrong. He played an amazing first half and really helped the team when he were looking the most vulnerable.

5) Cameron was loud, huh? To the Cameron Crazies, Syracuse will be the next Maryland (ie the second tenting game) for years to come (or until Boeheim retires).

6) Tyler Ennis is a nice dude. And CJ Fair looks like Chris Rock.

7) I like how this team is clicking. Yes, there are still a few annoying things, but we're clicking at just the right time.

DU82
02-23-2014, 08:35 PM
13:50 of the 1st.

As Emily Litella once said, "Oh, well that's different. Never mind."

Blocking foul. Never set up outside the restricted area. And Dick kept saying what great defense it was.

1999ballboy
02-23-2014, 08:42 PM
If only there was some way players could improve outside of the 200 minutes per game allocated to a team. Some way they could work with the coaches in an individual way, or perhaps in mock game situations where errors could immediately be broken down and addressed. Perhaps even a way in which they could improve their conditioning and strength. This bizarro world would give the coaches a way to evaluate the players, and determine who is most most able to help the team win. Unfortunately that doesn't exist. All that can only happen in the 40 minutes of a game when the fans also get to see the team play, and those 67 extra minutes Hairston has had over Plumlee this season is the one thing keeping Marshall from being a star.

We talkin' bout practice???

-bdbd
02-23-2014, 08:47 PM
I wonder what the Crazies will have in store for JB,

SoCal

Straightjacket. :p

ncexnyc
02-23-2014, 09:12 PM
You mean those who didn't want to listen because we thought Coach K was paying close attention to his development and was not part of a massive conspiracy to hold him back?

Please, explain to me how his fantastic performance confirms the "Duke is holdling back MP3 intentionally" theory. I would argue that his excellent play shows that K and staff know EXACTLY what he is growing into and are eager to get him there.
First, let me help you out. This is DBR, not IC. That's the only place I know where posters claim Coach K. and Duke is the place where big men come to die.

Secondly, I'm not sure why you feel the need to make things up. I've never said a word about any massive conspiracy so don't write a post that implies that I have.

And finally, let me clue you in since it's obvious you really haven't paying attention. MP3 has had several very nice performances as of late. Maybe you need to pay more attention.

Feel free to have the last word, as I'm done with you and this topic.

Newton_14
02-23-2014, 09:33 PM
OK guys, take it down a notch and stay civil please.

I think Troublemaker hit it on the head with MP3 (and to be honest i don't think ncexnyc was part of the conspiracy crowd either, but mountain was correct in that some folks were). Back to Troublemaker's point thought. The injury plus the surgery, along with the total loss of summer work, was a huge set back for MP3 that slowed his development. I think the staff has been uber cautious in bringing him along slowly, and I mentioned back in January, the 1 to 2 minutes per half, seemed like part of a plan to get his feet wet a little bit each game. It has since come out that he was not ready physically to handle more minutes. Per the trainers he has finally reached the point where he can take on heavier minutes, but the cramping thing last night is more proof that his body is still adjusting to the heavier load. His play has been getting better and better though. In the past two games against good competition he very much looked like a strong D1 Center and absolutely played at a high level. Some of those rebounds in traffic last night were stud plays.

It is great to see and should be celebrated and seen as a huge positive for this team. With him and Amile splitting time at the 5 that is just a tremendous new benefit to this team from an interior defense and rebounding aspect.

If the big fella keeps this up, this team takes another step forward. Fun times!

Karl Beem
02-23-2014, 09:50 PM
Practicing against The Oak next year will really help him.

jv001
02-23-2014, 10:21 PM
OK guys, take it down a notch and stay civil please.

I think Troublemaker hit it on the head with MP3 (and to be honest i don't think ncexnyc was part of the conspiracy crowd either, but mountain was correct in that some folks were). Back to Troublemaker's point thought. The injury plus the surgery, along with the total loss of summer work, was a huge set back for MP3 that slowed his development. I think the staff has been uber cautious in bringing him along slowly, and I mentioned back in January, the 1 to 2 minutes per half, seemed like part of a plan to get his feet wet a little bit each game. It has since come out that he was not ready physically to handle more minutes. Per the trainers he has finally reached the point where he can take on heavier minutes, but the cramping thing last night is more proof that his body is still adjusting to the heavier load. His play has been getting better and better though. In the past two games against good competition he very much looked like a strong D1 Center and absolutely played at a high level. Some of those rebounds in traffic last night were stud plays.

It is great to see and should be celebrated and seen as a huge positive for this team. With him and Amile splitting time at the 5 that is just a tremendous new benefit to this team from an interior defense and rebounding aspect.

If the big fella keeps this up, this team takes another step forward. Fun times!

Just maybe Coach K wasn't "blowing smoke" last year, when he said that MPIII would have been the team's 6 man if he hadn't gotten injured. I sure like the way the big guy is coming on. The last thing we need is for Marshall to injure himself now. Drink those liquids Big Guy. GoDuke!

andyw715
02-23-2014, 10:23 PM
Hello,

First off id like to thank those that gave me pointers in navigating game day in Durham. Much appreciated.

Secondly my ears have finally finished ringing allowing my headache to subside enough for me to author this post.

-Cameron Indoor Stadium is loud! Carrier dome is really loud as well but CIS is different, continuous loudness with frequent doses of "first row Metallica" cheering.

-Cameron Crazies are impressively coordinated. I love the eruption in applause with every good play Duke does, whether a made shot or strong D.

-CIS is small BUT, Many people over the years have commented to me "Why doesn't Duke update their basketball facility". Without ever being there I could only answer based on seeing games on TV. Now with firsthand experience, the answer is the same. It's the intimate atmosphere. You'd have to spend a lot of cash to replicate that one a larger scale. Without being there you just don't understand.

The game.

I like defensively heavy games. Both Ds played well. Cuse's shooting came out strong but in the first 10 min but then your D clamped and held us to 29% the first half.

Second half was a bit looser. Syracuse shot 51%.

CJ's charge: I was sitting in section 6 (somehow I scored a sec 6 ticket, the one I bought was sec 3 row P) so from that vantage point it looked like a block in real time. When I watch it on TV I can see a block, then charge from a different cam angle. So whatever, it is what it is.

Given that, JB's hissy fit really didn't bother me that much. Yeah it pretty much sealed the deal and yes there was the "chance" that the remaining 10 seconds (in the non tech foul scenario) could result in tie, I feel that the stars would really have to align for that to happen.
Comparison to the NCST game is silly. Their implosion started way before the inbound turnover. And Duke isn't NCST!!

So anyway. Something set JB off. I don't think it was the charge call in and of itself. I'm going with "taking one for the team". He's a smart guy and this is uncharted territory for him (the ejection in a real game)

As for his presser? That is 100% JB, snarky comments and all. The guy's been involved in basketball longer than the majority of us have been alive. He answers when and what questions he wants and slings the BS to the rest.

So see you all in the ACC Tourn. Hopefully the seeds will yield us a rematch on Sunday.

Who's Bad!
http://larrybrownsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/jim-boeheim-michael-jackson.jpg

Native
02-23-2014, 10:35 PM
Hello,

First off id like to thank those that gave me pointers in navigating game day in Durham. Much appreciated.

Secondly my ears have finally finished ringing allowing my headache to subside enough for me to author this post.

-Cameron Indoor Stadium is loud! Carrier dome is really loud as well but CIS is different, continuous loudness with frequent doses of "first row Metallica" cheering.

-Cameron Crazies are impressively coordinated. I love the eruption in applause with every good play Duke does, whether a made shot or strong D.

-CIS is small BUT, Many people over the years have commented to me "Why doesn't Duke update their basketball facility". Without ever being there I could only answer based on seeing games on TV. Now with firsthand experience, the answer is the same. It's the intimate atmosphere. You'd have to spend a lot of cash to replicate that one a larger scale. Without being there you just don't understand.

The game.

I like defensively heavy games. Both Ds played well. Cuse's shooting came out strong but in the first 10 min but then your D clamped and held us to 29% the first half.

Second half was a bit looser. Syracuse shot 51%.

CJ's charge: I was sitting in section 6 (somehow I scored a sec 6 ticket, the one I bought was sec 3 row P) so from that vantage point it looked like a block in real time. When I watch it on TV I can see a block, then charge from a different cam angle. So whatever, it is what it is.

Given that, JB's hissy fit really didn't bother me that much. Yeah it pretty much sealed the deal and yes there was the "chance" that the remaining 10 seconds (in the non tech foul scenario) could result in tie, I feel that the stars would really have to align for that to happen.
Comparison to the NCST game is silly. Their implosion started way before the inbound turnover. And Duke isn't NCST!!

So anyway. Something set JB off. I don't think it was the charge call in and of itself. I'm going with "taking one for the team". He's a smart guy and this is uncharted territory for him.

As for his presser? That is 100% JB, snarky comments and all. The guy's been involved in basketball longer than the majority of us have been alive. He answers when and what questions he wants and slings the BS to the rest.

So see you all in the ACC Tourn. Hopefully the seeds will yield us a rematch on Sunday.

Who's Bad!
http://larrybrownsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/jim-boeheim-michael-jackson.jpg

Thanks for your comments! Compared to the treatment I got at the Dean Dump last Thursday, Syracuse fans are awesome (well, compared to UNC fans, everyone is awesome). Had some great conversations in K-Ville prior to the game with some of you guys. Stick around and may the great games continue.

andyw715
02-23-2014, 10:49 PM
Oh and JB's "worst call ever" ? Just another snarky comment. He knows damn well the charge call on Triche last year in the final four game was much worse.

greybeard
02-23-2014, 11:00 PM
If K played Marshall low with Parker high and wanted Marshall to score the ball, he would, 15 per game, is my guess, give or take. You do notice the multiple screen sets on a possession. WoJo says that Marshall defines how high Duke's upside is, and now Marshall gets deployed aka Zoubek. And, yet there are still those who insist that Zoubek's unique contribution on offense was not what made Duke such a tough out during its Championship run in 2010. This kid is no Zoubek. He is a potential force in the college game, imo.

UrinalCake
02-24-2014, 12:00 AM
For all the crap we give Jay Bilas for being an anti-Duke homer, I thought his comments during the game regarding the block/charge were fair, and even more so this morning on ESPN radio. He said that the only reason the call is being made such a big deal by the media is because of Boeheim's outburst. Otherwise it's simply a difficult call that could go either way. Made the point that the no-call on Hood up in Syracuse was a much worse call. Went on to say it's a shame that such a great game was ended by the coach's behavior [as others have stated, even after the call Duke is up 2 and in bounding the ball. I think we were still in the one-and-one, though someone can correct me if I'm wrong on that. Regardless, with the way we were shooting free throws it seems reasonable to think we'd hit 1, leaving Syracuse down 3 with 8 or 9 seconds left, plenty of time to launch a Sulaimon-style 3 to send the game into OT].

The interviewer made the comparison to Marcus Smart and Bilas agreed that the media chastised the kid for losing his composure, yet Boeheim is literally fifty years older than Smart and lost his temper in a similar way.

As a side note, I don't think this has been mentioned but in the game at Syracuse I remember Boeheim being out on the court several times, even while the ball was in play. The announcers mention at least twice that the refs were warning him to get back, and who knows how many other times it happened unnoticed. I'm not sure if this is something he does often and is allowed to get away with based on his reputation, maybe one of the Syracuse fans could chime in, but it seems fitting that he continued to push the limits and finally got called on it.

bedeviled
02-24-2014, 12:39 AM
I thought Amile and MP3 did an outstanding job on the hedges . They applied good ball pressure, did not foul and even knocked the ball loose a few times. They also didn't lose their man and got back before they got a wide open layup. Some of the best hedging I've seen since Bill Murray in CaddyshackThanks for the reply FF50. I found the part of the post-game presser that had dangled in my memory. It's below in the answer to Question 9. Spoiler alert: our bigs came out flat for the hedge, rather than jockeying Ennis toward a specific direction, in an effort to minimize the head of steam he could get.

I must have been asleep when I listened to the presser before, because I found lots of it interesting upon re-listening (epic games, hints re: MP3, JP's step-back 3-ptrs). K was quite talkative. So, I typed it up for those who would rather skim through than listen to the whole thing....or, like me, thought they read enough quotes in the many charge vs block media articles that I thought I knew what was covered in the presser.

Coach K's post-game press conference:
General comments (bold is mine to separate into sections):
The game was a celebration of basketball: Another great game. Different from the first one because it seemed like both teams were scoring easy up at Syracuse, and, today, it was really difficult to score. I don't know how either team could play any harder. What a great environment. I want to thank our fans. The whole...their celebration of basketball up there and our celebration of basketball here was phenomenal. It's what makes our sport so good. I love the NBA to death, but this is something they can't do, and we should always recognize that. The thing at Syracuse and here - that's our product: genuineness, purity.
Our effort/intensity: My guys...to fight like they did today...you know it was their 4th game in 8 days and coming after one of our worst halves of the season at North Carolina, they played great there, I'm not knocking them - I mean, they made us look bad...but to come back and play with this level of intensity was spectacular, absolutely spectacular. Our defense was really good.
Countering Syracuse's defense: Their defense adjusted. What they did in their zone, when we flashed, they stayed with the shooters. Up there, when we flashed, they collapsed a little, and then when you kick out you have a shot. They stayed with shooters today. So that's why we, what turned out to be a good move, was putting Rodney there. What that did was he could run offense in there a little bit. I mean, not great, but better.
On Rodney Hood and the basketball gods: And, Rodney...that part of the game was amazing. The basketball gods are the best...they put Rodney in the two plays, you know, the two defining plays...the dunk which was maybe a foul up there and the charge, which I think was a charge. Anyway, he was in the play both times. One turned out great for us and one didn't turn out great, and both teams are 1 and 1 and Hood's the guy. This was a signature game for him. He came up with that little bucket when we were having trouble scoring towards the end of the game that wasn't off of a play or anything, he just completed it, when scoring was difficult. I'm really happy for him. He's such a good kid and player...and, he's been in foul trouble...the thing at Syracuse. And, today, he was center-stage and he came through magnificently. I'm really happy for him; he's so deserving.

Q1a: (not completed)
A1a: You look good in pink, by the way. And you don't usually look good in anything. So you should, uh...did you ever think of a pink hat? Do you have one?....Well, I don't want to see those. I don't want to see those.

Q1b: What was "it?"
A1b: "It" was the toughness. In other words, no....there is no alternative...you fight through everything. That's what having "it" is. I tell my players all the time, the people on this planet who have "it" are mothers. Mothers, because, when something is happening with their kid, there is a sense of urgency that no one on this planet can get to. You know what I mean? And I tell my players that, like, "tell me your mothers would not....they have "it," for you...now you should have "it" for each other. You see "it" all the time, now have "it."" Do I sound like Ozzie and Harriet or Leave it to Beaver, now, or whatever?

Q2: ...defense...6 straight possessions where y'all scored...Was that a product of Rodney Hood?
A2: Rodney really handled the ball well and Rasheed and Quinn were good on top. We turned the ball over early and we took pretty good care of it after that. But, if I had to single out one kid, it's hood. He had to go all over. And, he was playing defense. All our guys contributed. Marshall played great, and we would have used him more in the second half...he had cramps. Every time we tried to sub him in, he had cramps. We had him at the scorer's table one time, you know, so he's got to get accustomed to playing more minutes. Get more fluids in him. He gave us a huge lift, too.

Q3: Surprised to see Coach Boeheim's reaction?
A3: You know....yes and no. I'm not surprised to see Jim's fire....because, that's why he is one of the greatest coaches in any sport. And, so, he reacted to it. You obviously don't want the game to end that way, but I applaud him for...you know, we're all both pretty old and we still care. You know, to me, he wants to win. That's why, when we're doing the United States thing, he's right there. He and I are right there, because I know that that's what he's going to do. You know, that's how he prepares. And that's why I love him. That's...with the two of us, it's been a really good team together.

Q4: ...mentally...epic kind of games like this late in the season...tempted to make too much out of it...?
A4: You mean, like, handling it? Well, to me, it's great preparation for the tournament. You know, because, if you're fortunate, you may win an epic type of game, like, the first time we won a National Championship. We beat Vegas. They had won 45 in a row. When we walked into our hotel, it was the Holiday Inn at the airport - they really revved it up for us, it was packed. Everybody was delirious, like we had already won. And, to me, it was our greatest National Championship because we had to overcome an epic win. A lot of people today would say that we won the National Championship that year when we beat Vegas. Just like a lot of people think we won the next year when we beat Kentucky. And, you have to get past those things if you're going to win. And, like, for them, they have a real quick turnaround 'cause they gotta go up to Maryland. And, Maryland's good and fighting like crazy. We have at least one more day to get ready, and we're playing at home, so we have to be ready for that.

Q5: ...these games...what does it say for the ACC in the future, with Louisville coming in next year?
A5: Well, I said it after our game up there that our conference, after that game, should recognize that the assets that they were able to get in Syracuse, Pitt, and Notre Dame and, then, Louisville are just the best assets for college basketball that any conference could get. And, so, we're seeing why right now. And, we should see how we take advantage of that going into the future where we don't assume we're going to be the best conference but we do all the things necessary to make that happen. You know, the Big East did a great job of that when they had those teams. They did a better job of it than us. I mean, they were really good, but we were really good, too. But, most people felt that they were better sometimes, and I'm not sure that they were. But, how they did it...people believed that.

Q6: ...with Syracuse joining the league, and it seems like more teams around the country are playing zone defense. Do you think teams, and your team specifically, will practice more zone offense....?
A6: That's a good question. We've played against more zone this year than any year, and that's without Syracuse. I think people copy successful programs, and they should look at Syracuse's zone. Now, what they need to do is get Christmas, Grant, and Fair playing that back line, and that zone will look really good....because, the thing that they don't give up very often is inside baskets. They protect the basket as well as any team in the country. The other reason I think there's been more zone is because of the rules of, you know, hand...they're calling a lot of, really a lot of fouls early, and so more people went to zone.

Q7: Are you playing more zone offense generally in practice, then, not just for zone teams?
A7: Ye-uh-n..No. We've prepared more for zone. And, we don't play zone. So, you know, we gotta do that and we have.

Q8: ...Parker's 3-point shots going down; he was 3 for 3. Was it a matter of it's his time that they start going down or was he doing something differently?
A8: Well, he didn't take them under pressure. They weren't after a jab and a step-back. And, I'm proud of him because he....this, you know...we haven't practiced it, so it's a huge adjustment...We told him, "You're on the perimeter, and Rodney's inside." And, so, it did give him a chance to look at the basket when he received the ball instead of coming up with his back turned. In the future, when he's not...after he's through playing here, pretty much, he's going to be that player. You know, where he's facing the basket and driving and shooting and scoring a lot of points. But, I thought he started out young in the game and then got old real quick in the last 25 minutes. He was a real man in the last 25 minutes.

Q9: What did you guys do so well....Ennis...?
A9: Well, I thought it was our big guys...how we defended the ball screen. When they go to the flat ball screen on top, a lot of times you send them one way or the other, but it gives them a head of steam. What we said for today was to not send him any way but to have our big guy go either way. And, so it's not necessarily a step-in, but you're...you don't give him the run. And, then, Rasheed and Quinn did a good job on him. He's a heck of a player. You know, both teams were worthy of winning this game, and both teams were worthy of winning the game up there. Going 1-1 is probably the way it should be.

Q10: Would you like to see this game played twice a year?
A10: You know what? I would like to see us figure out how many people have 9 o'clock games, how many people have Saturday-Monday, and see, in the big scheme of things, how that washes out for everybody. When you play 9 o'clock games, that's a tough thing. It's a tough thing. If you're the....I'm not saying we shouldn't and we don't want to play them...it's interesting to just look at how everybody, when they play...not just who they play, but when they play. And, if you're going to use your assets the right way, the make sure that you don't deplete your assets while you're doing it. In other words, when you're using....it's like with a great player, you know, you still have to give him some rest. They don't play 40 minutes, necessarily. And, after the season, I think we should all....we should have plans on how to do this the right way. We have a gold mine for college basketball - this conference has struck gold. We should be the top one if we continue to figure it out the right way.

Steven43
02-24-2014, 01:27 AM
Thanks for being so positive after a huge win and after a week which saw them go 3-1

I happen to agree with bbosbbos that our second half game plans against UNC and Syracuse were pretty awful and I also agree that we have played very poorly against the zone. Our zone-busting 'plan' appears to be: pass the ball back and forth several times to each other outside of the three point line, make a half-hearted attempt at taking a step forward against the zone and then back out and pass to a teammate outside the three-point line then rush a hurried three that misses 75% of the time. And then when there are around five minutes left in the game and we have a 'huge' three or four point lead don't even pass the ball around the outside of the three-point line but instead have Quinn stand in place holding or dribbling the ball and cause our offense to stagnate even further (is that even possible?) and when the shot clock is almost out rush up a hurried three that misses 80% of the time.

Are you seriously defending this style of play? We should have beaten both UNC and Syracuse by at least six or seven points, maybe more. And the idea that this Syracuse team is some juggernaut is clearly false. In the last three weeks they barely beat Duke in overtime at home, struggled to beat an average Notre Dame team at home, barely beat a somewhat fading Pittsburgh team by 2 points, barely beat an okay NC State team by 1 point at home, and lost to a very mediocre Boston College team at home. They could EASILY have five losses this month with four of them coming at home.

While I definitely agree that it was a huge win and a very difficult eight days, there are plenty of things to not feel positive about in regard to this Duke team. I do think the problems are mostly solvable, but the question of whether or not we will solve them is very uncertain.

ice-9
02-24-2014, 01:43 AM
Just to finalize our discussion about stall ball. I think we finally went into stall ball at the 5 minute mark. You could make the case we did it in the previous 2 possessions (resulting in a missed 3 by Cook and turnover by Sheed) but that was the first time down the court where K just held his hands up (as if to say, slow down). The previous two times, he was giving out plays almost immediately.

So if you go by this is when stall ball happened, our possessions go like this. 2 quick passes which resulted in a Hood corner 3 (something everyone is clamoring for) and a put back dunk by Jabari. The next possession was Cook penetrating with the spin move and the missed floater. Cook was a bit out of control but still got a pretty good shot off. Then, the play by Sulaimon when he drove, lost it, and kicked it to Hood for a lay up. The next time down, Sheed and Cook just passed it until Cook missed a 3. Then, they went to Parker in the lane for his layup.

Then Jabari got fouled on the rebound so that was all our possessions in stall ball. So they scored 6 points in 5 possessions. And even Cook's 3 was wide open so if it goes down, I'm sure nobody complains about it. Sheed penetrated attracted the defender and Cook probably had his most open 3 of the game. So I'm not sure Duke didn't necessarily get what they want.

Honestly, I'm less afraid of Syracuse in the ACCT than UVA, at least from a defensive standpoint. Duke has had much more trouble with the pack line defense and I think for the most part, they figured out Boeheim's zone.

I remember Quinn taking at least two three pointers during stall ball and both being bad shots? In any case, I would have preferred Rasheed or Rodney to shoot the three if we had to (both are 44% vs. Quinn's 34% for the season so far), and Quinn was also a good one step behind the arc when he took his shots. Open sure, kinda, but not a high percentage shot -- especially when open corner three was there for the taking. Even Parker is a more accurate shooter than Quinn.

Steven43
02-24-2014, 01:43 AM
Did Duke win? Do free throws tonight matter for a game in March and April? Duke just ended a week 3-1 and capped it by beating Syracuse. Just stop with the negative after a big win.

So Duke survived by the skin of their teeth in Cameron to an average Maryland team that led most of the game and ultimately lost on a potential game-winning shot that hung on the rim and fell out, beat a very poor Georgia Tech, got completely dismantled in the second half to lose to an unranked UNC team, and barely survived in Cameron against an overrated Syracuse team and Duke fans are supposed to be turning cartwheels? I agree that it was a much-needed win, but i think it might be very short-sighted to think Duke fans shouldn't have anything negative to say simply because we won three out of four.

SirBlueDevil
02-24-2014, 05:37 AM
Good Morning Duke Nation!

My thoughts on saturdays big win is this: Glad we won and take no shame in admitting it....I thought the call was the right one ( charge and not a block)....call me bias but i don't care!

To all cuse fans i say (Rodney Hoods tomahawk contact foul no call in your house)....karma is a.. you get the idea!

To sean may the former tar heel who put more work in making sure he made it to a local fast food court than that of the NBA's, lose the fat, lose the hate!

Go Duke Blue.....now bring on Va Tech...Wake....and more importantly UNC!

jv001
02-24-2014, 06:03 AM
So Duke survived by the skin of their teeth in Cameron to an average Maryland team that led most of the game and ultimately lost on a potential game-winning shot that hung on the rim and fell out, beat a very poor Georgia Tech, got completely dismantled in the second half to lose to an unranked UNC team, and barely survived in Cameron against an overrated Syracuse team and Duke fans are supposed to be turning cartwheels? I agree that it was a much-needed win, but i think it might be very short-sighted to think Duke fans shouldn't have anything negative to say simply because we won three out of four.

I think if you look at the schedule of the top ten teams, you will see that all have had some close scares along the way. Some of their fans probably feel the same way you do(bolded). Never before have the top teams been so evenly matched. So, you're going to have games like the ones you mentioned. You should see the Syracuse message boards and that team was undefeated a week ago and top ranked. I'm just enjoying the season, one game at a time. The season will be over before we know it and I for one will be clamoring for more Duke basketball. I guess us Duke fans sometimes get spoiled. You know top ten seasons, ACCT championships, NCAAT appearances, NCAAT championships and wins over the cheaters down the road. Next play and GoDuke!

duke96
02-24-2014, 06:18 AM
OK guys, take it down a notch and stay civil please.

I think Troublemaker hit it on the head with MP3 (and to be honest i don't think ncexnyc was part of the conspiracy crowd either, but mountain was correct in that some folks were). Back to Troublemaker's point thought. The injury plus the surgery, along with the total loss of summer work, was a huge set back for MP3 that slowed his development. I think the staff has been uber cautious in bringing him along slowly, and I mentioned back in January, the 1 to 2 minutes per half, seemed like part of a plan to get his feet wet a little bit each game. It has since come out that he was not ready physically to handle more minutes. Per the trainers he has finally reached the point where he can take on heavier minutes, but the cramping thing last night is more proof that his body is still adjusting to the heavier load. His play has been getting better and better though. In the past two games against good competition he very much looked like a strong D1 Center and absolutely played at a high level. Some of those rebounds in traffic last night were stud plays.

It is great to see and should be celebrated and seen as a huge positive for this team. With him and Amile splitting time at the 5 that is just a tremendous new benefit to this team from an interior defense and rebounding aspect.

If the big fella keeps this up, this team takes another step forward. Fun times!

Is this about the time of year when Zoubek really started to step it up in 2010? Who remembers best?

Wheat/"/"/"
02-24-2014, 06:25 AM
If K played Marshall low with Parker high and wanted Marshall to score the ball, he would, 15 per game, is my guess, give or take. You do notice the multiple screen sets on a possession. WoJo says that Marshall defines how high Duke's upside is, and now Marshall gets deployed aka Zoubek. And, yet there are still those who insist that Zoubek's unique contribution on offense was not what made Duke such a tough out during its Championship run in 2010. This kid is no Zoubek. He is a potential force in the college game, imo.

No way Duke gets past elite 8 without Zoubek in 2010.

Just watched the game replay on watch espn after a crazy weekend...didn't read much of this thread except the last page, so bear with me if I repeat stuff.

I'm liking Plumlee's play too. He's gonna be a big contributor if Duke goes far, he'll have to.

I don't have a sense for his scoring abilities yet, because I've really only seen him dunk. We need to see more scoring moves under defensive pressure to see where he's at at this point before we can expect 15 a game from him. He has good hands which means he he should be able to score, but for scoring inside a player needs to feel the defense and have touch on his shot, he'll get his chance to prove he has those abilities...he's a young player with nice upside.

I thought it was a great move by K to put Hood at the center of the zone for a big part of the game. It got him involved with his team and took advantage of his mid range skills.

Defensively Duke looked much more engaged, and I think it wore on the Orange.

I thought the same thing about the controversial foul as I did the last one at Syracuse, both could have been called either way. If I was calling them tho, I'd have made a no call on Hoods dunk, because I thought the defender got all ball before minimal contact. And I'd have made the charge call that they made at Cameron. So in my mind the officials made the right calls on those plays.

jv001
02-24-2014, 06:48 AM
No way Duke gets past elite 8 without Zoubek in 2010.

Just watched the game replay on watch espn after a crazy weekend...didn't read much of this thread except the last page, so bear with me if I repeat stuff.

I'm liking Plumlee's play too. He's gonna be a big contributor if Duke goes far, he'll have to.

I don't have a sense for his scoring abilities yet, because I've really only seen him dunk. We need to see more scoring moves under defensive pressure to see where he's at at this point before we can expect 15 a game from him. He has good hands which means he he should be able to score, but for scoring inside a player needs to feel the defense and have touch on his shot, he'll get his chance to prove he has those abilities...he's a young player with nice upside.

I thought it was a great move by K to put Hood at the center of the zone for a big part of the game. It got him involved with his team and took advantage of his mid range skills.

Defensively Duke looked much more engaged, and I think it wore on the Orange.

I thought the same thing about the controversial foul as I did the last one at Syracuse, both could have been called either way. If I was calling them tho, I'd have made a no call on Hoods dunk, because I thought the defender got all ball before minimal contact. And I'd have made the charge call that they made at Cameron. So in my mind the officials made the right calls on those plays.

I have talked to several tarheel fans since "the play" on Saturday night and you are the first to say that the ref made the right call. But, you are a more level headed heel fan than most. If they were all like you, I wouldn't hate the tarheels. You're still not perfect, but you're better than most :cool: As for the two plays in question, I think the block/charge call was much harder to call correctly than the dunk at Cuse. As bad as the media hates on Duke, almost all said that was a foul on Rodney's dunk attempt. When a defender get's his hand on the ball, but bodies up or hits a players arm while they are shooting, it's a foul. That call has been made a trillion times and rightfully so. The worst part about the block/charge call was JB's mental breakdown on the play. Then in his press conference he was his mean spirited self. Except this time he did it while smiling. No apology to his team, the refs or conference. He has been a baby with all his crying about where the ACCT is going to be held and comments about the ACC compared to the Big East. I hope he stay healthy for a long time, but I hope he doesn't coach a long time. Lost some respect for him since Cuse joined the ACC. GoDuke!

Troublemaker
02-24-2014, 07:00 AM
And then when there are around five minutes left in the game and we have a 'huge' three or four point lead don't even pass the ball around the outside of the three-point line but instead have Quinn stand in place holding or dribbling the ball and cause our offense to stagnate even further (is that even possible?) and when the shot clock is almost out rush up a hurried three that misses 80% of the time.

This is laughably wrong. Duke started stallball with 4:50 left and scored on 3 out of 5 possessions. These were the five possessions:

1 - Score. Wide open corner 3 from Hood. Tip-dunked by Parker
2 - Non-score. Cook missed floater in the lane.
3 - Score. Sulaimon fumbled ball on drive, then passed to cutting Hood for layup.
4 - Non-score. Cook missed a long 3-pointer out top. Bad possession.
5 - Score. Parker receives ball in high-post, drives for layup.

On all five possesions, Duke started attacking with about 20 seconds left on the shotclock. Only on the 4th possession did Duke take a hurried three. Only on two possesions was a three attempt even involved.

After these five possessions, Syracuse was in fouling mode. If Duke had hit our free throws, we would've had a 2-possession lead when the charge/block call happened.

moonpie23
02-24-2014, 07:01 AM
I think jim needed to try and take the heat off his team being behind and looking at the 2nd loss in a row…….i doubt he goes ballistic if that play happens in the first half.


I'm glad our coach didn't act like a buttmunch on the Hood no-call up there….

jv001
02-24-2014, 07:08 AM
This is laughably wrong. Duke started stallball with 4:50 left and scored on 3 out of 5 possessions. These were the five possessions:

1 - Score. Wide open corner 3 from Hood. Tip-dunked by Parker
2 - Non-score. Cook missed floater in the lane.
3 - Score. Sulaimon fumbled ball on drive, then passed to cutting Hood for layup.
4 - Non-score. Cook missed a long 3-pointer out top. Bad possession.
5 - Score. Parker receives ball in high-post, drives for layup.

On all five possesions, Duke started attacking with about 20 seconds left on the shotclock. Only on the 4th possession did Duke take a hurried three. Only on two possesions was a three attempt even involved.

After these five possessions, Syracuse was in fouling mode. If Duke had hit our free throws, we would've had a 2-possession lead when the charge/block call happened.

You have it the way I remembered the stall ball. I have not looked at the replay yet, so, I'll ask this question. On the two shots by Quinn, were they in the flow of the game. I think I remember saying while watching the game that Quinn's 3 was too quick or too far out. Or maybe both. What did you think of those two shots he attempted in the closing minutes? I think Quinn has played terrific defense in the last two game. He looks to be moving better. GoDuke!

Troublemaker
02-24-2014, 07:09 AM
I happen to agree with bbosbbos that our second half game plans against UNC and Syracuse were pretty awful and I also agree that we have played very poorly against the zone. Our zone-busting 'plan' appears to be: pass the ball back and forth several times to each other outside of the three point line, make a half-hearted attempt at taking a step forward against the zone and then back out and pass to a teammate outside the three-point line then rush a hurried three that misses 75% of the time.

This is laughably wrong. First of all, you're conflating different zones. Has Duke struggled against 1-3-1 zones against MD and UNC? Yeah, probably. But has Duke struggled against Syracuse's 2-3 zone? Nope, not really. As Kedsy mentioned upthread, Duke has been responsible for the best and third-best offensive performances against Syracuse's zone this season as measured by points per possession. Syracuse plays a slow pace and so it's easy to think that Duke struggled against the zone when the score is in the 60s, but it's not true. It's also not giving Syracuse credit for playing zone very well. They have long rim protectors in the back and turnover-forcing machines up front.

Also, Duke got the ball into the high post plenty of times in both games. We also made plenty of drives against the zone by setting screens. The Orange constantly morph their zone to take things away (the high post, the 3s) so it's a constant chess match to figure out the best way to attack. Duke has attacked them better than any team they've faced, as mentioned.

CajunDevil
02-24-2014, 07:12 AM
If not for cramps MP3 would have played 25 minutes vs. Cuse. I think the majority of Duke fans on this board need to adjust their minute totals to account for Plumlee's minutes. He is not just "serviceable" he is a really good sub and will be key for Duke making a Final Four run.

A few of the under-appreciated things Plumlee does:

1. He is the team's best screener. He never moves until the ball-handler has cleared the screen thus never resulting in illegal screens.
2. He is the team's best hedger. The play he made on Lamar Patterson of Pitt is an example of how well he plays the ball screen. He can either short-circuit the screen by beating the screener to the screen - as he did to Patterson - or he hedges making like very difficult for the ball-handler. Also, Plum has quick feet and quick hands, so he presents a real challenge not simply a speed bump that many bigs are on hedges.
3. He is a very good offensive rebounder and plays within himself on the offensive end - making few mistakes (except for the bad pass in the Cuse game).

I'm amazed at his progress this year... Credit MP3, credit coaching staff. Great job!

gus
02-24-2014, 07:17 AM
So Duke [won close games] and Duke fans are supposed to be turning cartwheels?

Yes.

Troublemaker
02-24-2014, 07:21 AM
You have it the way I remembered the stall ball. I have not looked at the replay yet, so, I'll ask this question. On the two shots by Quinn, were they in the flow of the game. I think I remember saying while watching the game that Quinn's 3 was too quick or too far out. Or maybe both. What did you think of those two shots he attempted in the closing minutes? I think Quinn has played terrific defense in the last two game. He looks to be moving better. GoDuke!

Quinn's floater was in the flow of the attack and came after a beautiful spin move by him. I'm not sure about Quinn's success rate with floaters but generally, he's a guard that I'm comfortable with trying to score inside.

Quinn's 3 was too long, imo, but he was forced to take it with the shotclock running down. This was a good defensive possession by Cuse denying the high post (or a bad possession by Duke, however one wants to look at it.)

jv001
02-24-2014, 07:23 AM
Quinn's floater was in the flow of the attack and came after a beautiful spin move by him. I'm not sure about Quinn's success rate with floaters but generally, he's a guard that I'm comfortable with trying to score inside.

Quinn's 3 was too long, imo, but he was forced to take it with the shotclock running down. This was a good defensive possession by Cuse denying the high post (or a bad possession by Duke, however one wants to look at it.)

Thanks for your quick response. I guess it was Cuse's defense and not Quinn dribbling the shot clock down? GoDuke!

gus
02-24-2014, 07:30 AM
Yes.

Let me expand on that.

I watch college basketball because it is exciting. Not to sound like vitals, but I love the passion, the crowds, and the unpredictability. If I wanted technical perfection I'd watch the NBA or YouTube clips. I am really enjoying this season (and last season too). '99 was one of the least satisfying seasons for me, and Duke won most of its games by double digits. I watched that championship game expecting a win and was let down. It's an awful feeling. Revel in the wins, no matter what they look like.*



* except the Vermont win. That was too ugly to celebrate.

Duvall
02-24-2014, 07:55 AM
Yes.

DEBATE TOPIC: Duke's first win over a team ranked #1 in Cameron since the Fab Five - is this something to celebrate?

wilson
02-24-2014, 08:01 AM
Is this about the time of year when Zoubek really started to step it up in 2010? Who remembers best?Yes, we are very close to the same time as Zoubek's emergence. In 2010, Brian Zoubek started for the first time (I think) on February 13, Coach K's birthday. Duke won going away and Zoubek had 16 points and 17 rebounds.
Whether or not it was his first start of the season, that was definitely the turning point for Brian and the team, and a defining moment for the 2010 championship run.
Box Score (http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=300440150)

jipops
02-24-2014, 08:02 AM
DEBATE TOPIC: Duke's first win over a team ranked #1 in Cameron since the Fab Five - is this something to celebrate?

Heck I'm still celebrating. Is the alternative to take all of this for granted?

FerryFor50
02-24-2014, 08:06 AM
DEBATE TOPIC: Duke's first win over a team ranked #1 in Cameron since the Fab Five - is this something to celebrate?

Meh. That is a little skewed.

First of all, Syracuse was not going to be #1 this week even if they beat Duke.

Two, the drought is so long likely for two reasons:

- Duke generally doesn't play top ranked teams in Cameron. Those games usually happen in tournaments or neutral sites.

- Duke often is the #1 team, so tough to play #1 when you occupy the spot.

It was a good win, but I believe you only celebrate championships and wins over UNC (but not by rushing the court).

wilson
02-24-2014, 08:06 AM
DEBATE TOPIC: Duke's first win over a team ranked #1 in Cameron since the Fab Five - is this something to celebrate?


Heck I'm still celebrating. Is the alternative to take all of this for granted?I saw that stat thrown out in the aftermath of Saturday's big win too, and like jipops, I see it as cause for celebration.
I wonder how many chances we've even had to beat a #1 team in Cameron during that stretch. We all know that the vast majority of the time that a #1 team has played in CIS, that team has been Duke. Presumably, the heels have come in at #1 a handful of times, but what other candidates are there? I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that we haven't played more than a handful of home games against #1 teams since the last such victory (last win over top-ranked team was 1997 vs. Arizona, last such home victory was 1992 vs. Michigan).

UrinalCake
02-24-2014, 08:07 AM
I don't have a sense for [Plumlee's] scoring abilities yet, because I've really only seen him dunk.

From what little I've seen of his non-dunking offensive skills, he still seems to have a lot of the over-excitedness/spastic energy when he shoots from in close. Of course, the only time this ever happens is off an offensive rebound, so the play is already sort of "broken" in the sense that we're not running a set play and he has to make some quick decisions with what to do. MP3 has done a great job of channeling his energy in a more positive way while he's on the court, but with the ball he still has a long way to go.

jipops
02-24-2014, 08:09 AM
I happen to agree with bbosbbos that our second half game plans against UNC and Syracuse were pretty awful and I also agree that we have played very poorly against the zone. Our zone-busting 'plan' appears to be: pass the ball back and forth several times to each other outside of the three point line, make a half-hearted attempt at taking a step forward against the zone and then back out and pass to a teammate outside the three-point line then rush a hurried three that misses 75% of the time. And then when there are around five minutes left in the game and we have a 'huge' three or four point lead don't even pass the ball around the outside of the three-point line but instead have Quinn stand in place holding or dribbling the ball and cause our offense to stagnate even further (is that even possible?) and when the shot clock is almost out rush up a hurried three that misses 80% of the time.

Are you seriously defending this style of play? We should have beaten both UNC and Syracuse by at least six or seven points, maybe more. And the idea that this Syracuse team is some juggernaut is clearly false. In the last three weeks they barely beat Duke in overtime at home, struggled to beat an average Notre Dame team at home, barely beat a somewhat fading Pittsburgh team by 2 points, barely beat an okay NC State team by 1 point at home, and lost to a very mediocre Boston College team at home. They could EASILY have five losses this month with four of them coming at home.

While I definitely agree that it was a huge win and a very difficult eight days, there are plenty of things to not feel positive about in regard to this Duke team. I do think the problems are mostly solvable, but the question of whether or not we will solve them is very uncertain.

The bolded part of your statement could not be more false. Kedsy stated this earlier...




In our two games against Syracuse, we had the best points per possession performance they've allowed all season and the 3rd best (tonight), which would have been 2nd best if we'd hit a few more free throws. It may not have looked pretty, but Syracuse's zone is tough to score against and we've done better than anyone else in the country against it.

Furniture
02-24-2014, 08:09 AM
If you look around the country there are a lot of top teams losing games or scraping out wins. Some people on this forum don't seem to be able to see that big picture and prefer to nitpick the issues which will probably be always there.
Personally I think we have a great team and Saturday it was a well deserved great win in-spite of the close score line!

wilson
02-24-2014, 08:09 AM
...I believe you only celebrate championships and wins over UNC (but not by rushing the court).Really? I don't agree. I love celebrating victories in big games (Saturday certainly qualifies as such), as well as victories that illustrate big accomplishments for our team. Those "accomplishments" may be individual or collective, and they may be in any of a number of categories, but to me, that is part of the joy of watching college sports...the education that occurs as part of a season's journey and the opportunity to watch when things "sink in" really speaks to me. In my opinion, if you don't celebrate significant victories against whomever, there's kind of no point to the whole thing.

sagegrouse
02-24-2014, 08:10 AM
Yes, we are very close to the same time as Zoubek's emergence. In 2010, Brian Zoubek started for the first time (I think) on February 13, Coach K's birthday. Duke won going away and Zoubek had 16 points and 17 rebounds.
Whether or not it was his first start of the season, that was definitely the turning point for Brian and the team, and a defining moment for the 2010 championship run.
Box Score (http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=300440150)

Game logs show he started two December games, against Gardner-Webb and Gonzaga, but the boxscore data don't show him at all. Bad data on Stats Geek -- horrors!

NashvilleDevil
02-24-2014, 08:13 AM
So Duke survived by the skin of their teeth in Cameron to an average Maryland team that led most of the game and ultimately lost on a potential game-winning shot that hung on the rim and fell out, beat a very poor Georgia Tech, got completely dismantled in the second half to lose to an unranked UNC team, and barely survived in Cameron against an overrated Syracuse team and Duke fans are supposed to be turning cartwheels? I agree that it was a much-needed win, but i think it might be very short-sighted to think Duke fans shouldn't have anything negative to say simply because we won three out of four.

Yes they should be doing cartwheels. They just played a stretch in which they played Maryland in the Terps last game in Cameron, say what you will about Maryland being average everyone knew that they would put forth more effort in that game than any other game this year. Duke then dismantled Georgia Tech and since the game was in Atlanta between the Maryland and Carolina games it could have been a trap. They lost to Carolina but I would not call it a dismantling, at one point Duke had an 11 point lead and it is not like Carolina erased that lead in 2-3 minutes. Duke did not hit a shot for 10 minutes or so and they still had the lead with about 4 minutes to go and then had a couple of chances to tie late in the game. Also that unranked Carolina team has beat Kentucky, Louisville and Michigan State this year and I think the delay made for a charged atmosphere in the Dean Dome. Now onto the Syracuse win, you may think they are overrated but the fact is they were undefeated until this week and the number 1 team in the country. It does not matter how many close games Syracuse has won because they had won them all until playing BC and Duke. My point of my two posts was Duke had won and instead of focusing on a couple of negatives look at the fact that Duke just finished off a rough week 3-1. It seems that some posters just love to focus on the negative even when Duke wins.

FerryFor50
02-24-2014, 08:21 AM
Really? I don't agree. I love celebrating victories in big games (Saturday certainly qualifies as such), as well as victories that illustrate big accomplishments for our team. Those "accomplishments" may be individual or collective, and they may be in any of a number of categories, but to me, that is part of the joy of watching college sports...the education that occurs as part of a season's journey and the opportunity to watch when things "sink in" really speaks to me. In my opinion, if you don't celebrate significant victories against whomever, there's kind of no point to the whole thing.

Don't get me wrong; wins like that make me very happy. I get amped up and have a little trouble getting to sleep.

But I try to keep in mind it's a marathon, not a sprint. I enjoy the seasons on a whole moreso than individual wins, other than UNC. :)

Atlanta Duke
02-24-2014, 08:25 AM
I saw that stat thrown out in the aftermath of Saturday's big win too, and like jipops, I see it as cause for celebration.
I wonder how many chances we've even had to beat a #1 team in Cameron during that stretch. We all know that the vast majority of the time that a #1 team has played in CIS, that team has been Duke. Presumably, the heels have come in at #1 a handful of times, but what other candidates are there? I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that we haven't played more than a handful of home games against #1 teams since the last such victory (last win over top-ranked team was 1997 vs. Arizona, last such home victory was 1992 vs. Michigan).

Link here to the N&O story last week on Duke's regular season record against #1 teams and top 5 teams under Coach K - prior to Saturday the last time was in 2008 against UNC. as you correctly concluded, only 2 games against #1 in Cameron since Dule became a power again in 1986

Duke vs. No. 1 under Mike Krzyzewski

March 8, 2008—No. 1 UNC 76, No. 6 Duke 68, Cameron Indoor Stadium...

Dec. 5, 1992—No. 4 Duke 79, No. 1 Michigan 68, Cameron Indoor Stadium

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/02/17/3631220/duke-versus-no-1-ranked-teams.html#storylink=cpy

DukeAlumBS
02-24-2014, 08:48 AM
I remember Quinn taking at least two three pointers during stall ball and both being bad shots? In any case, I would have preferred Rasheed or Rodney to shoot the three if we had to (both are 44% vs. Quinn's 34% for the season so far), and Quinn was also a good one step behind the arc when he took his shots. Open sure, kinda, but not a high percentage shot -- especially when open corner three was there for the taking. Even Parker is a more accurate shooter than Quinn.

I agree with you regarding Cook. In the first Syracuse game he was 1 of 7 made. It might have been 1 of 8.
We have several that I would like to shoot, with his track record thus far. Just do not take the 3. Pass it off to another!
Nice day
Jimmy

COYS
02-24-2014, 09:32 AM
I agree with you regarding Cook. In the first Syracuse game he was 1 of 7 made. It might have been 1 of 8.
We have several that I would like to shoot, with his track record thus far. Just do not take the 3. Pass it off to another!
Nice day
Jimmy

I think Quinn gets a little too much criticism for his shooting. For one, he's often the one with the ball in his hands when the shot clock is winding down. If no one else has gotten a shot off in the previous 30 seconds, that's usually because either the defense has been taking away our primary scoring options or other guys on the team have failed to make themselves open. Finally, Quinn's threes as the shot clock is expiring are deep threes because he has very little choice but to set up far enough behind the arc to be open. Now, can Quinn do a better job setting up the offense at times? Of Course. Does he occasionally lose concentration? Yes. But, this is true of Rasheed and Rodney, too, who have a habit of either being too passive OR too single-minded with their drives into traffic.

At the end of the day, a deep three as the shot clock is expiring is better than no shot at all. I actually thought our offense against Syracuse went into a far worse slump earlier in the half after 'Cuse adjusted to take away Rodney at the free throw line and we were slow to swing the ball to get an entry pass for Jabari either in the post or in the corner. Our slow-down possessions at the end of the game were actually pretty decent, and we all would have been far more relaxed if we had just hit our free throws.

daveyro
02-24-2014, 09:34 AM
Is this about the time of year when Zoubek really started to step it up in 2010? Who remembers best?
I don't remember the time but I remember a key change. When he got an O RB, he'd hold the ball high, elbows out, and made great passes to open guys. Prior, he seemed lost when pulling down a ORB, keeping it low for little guys to swipe, eyes not scanning the perimeter for possession saving - passes. That struck me as a light bulb.

greybeard
02-24-2014, 10:42 AM
Marshall. Using the term, considering the term, "spasticity" with regard to anything you have or can imagine seeing him doing is nuts. He has made plays of every variety with timing, balance, modulation, and control. Catching it 0ff the board, reorienting in a crowd, and putting it back in, well, if you need a better measure, try his on-the-move moments creating havoc on the other end.

Marshall has great footwork, soft hands, covers ground, AND, he doesn't bother (that is disrupt) action by converting uptake into words, making decisions into words, reconverting words into useable/meaningful neurotransmissions that lead to action, which, if you have done what I have just said, will make you spastic. This guy is pure, his intelligence is unimpeded, and his performance shows it. People who think "stability" will not get this, but there is no such thing. Being able to fall from stability into instability with the ability to reverse (change) where you are going, which includes when you are standing still, to do what you want, is the higher end of good organization. Plumlee is pretty high on that scale.

TI will break with my code here. The only thing holding Plumlee back now is K.

Neals384
02-24-2014, 11:27 AM
B/c most of their money is probably on Duke hate or at least Duke controversy. A wise man once told me the first letter in the ESPN acronym stands for Entertainment.

Entertainment and Sports Presentation Network.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-24-2014, 11:32 AM
DEBATE TOPIC: Duke's first win over a team ranked #1 in Cameron since the Fab Five - is this something to celebrate?

Absolutely. We knocked off #1 in the nation at the end of an unprecedented week of tough games. This stretch was as close to simulating the grind of the NCAA tournament as you can get. The fact that we went 3-1 this week is also something to celebrate. We control our destiny coming down the home stretch and are in the mix for all our goals.

Now, let's go beat them one more time in a few weeks.

Duke4life92
02-24-2014, 11:36 AM
DEBATE TOPIC: Duke's first win over a team ranked #1 in Cameron since the Fab Five - is this something to celebrate?not really because around my area(south of greensboro ,we were listedsecond fiddle to Tar Heels crushing wake-then devils get by the cuse.Such is the bias around here.Also noticed this on espn about the charge/block call,had'nt noticed anyone else mention.Thought vry interesting.
ESPN.com's Jeff Goodman spoke to three game officials and there was no consensus opinion on the play, backing up the officiating manager's assertion.

The official, who asked not to be named, said he watched the play in slow motion, frame-by-frame four times, and he at least believes the correct call was made.

The official said that Syracuse's C.J. Fair was not in an upward motion and that Duke's Rodney Hood had established position.

"By the strict interpretation of the rule, it was a player control foul in my opinion," the official said. "The defender was in position with his feet facing his opponent before Fair raised his hand. I think if you watch it, at least frame-by-frame, it was a player-control foul."

He added that the defender does have the right, after establishing legal guarding position, to slide to a side to cover an opponent, which Hood did.

DukeDevilDeb
02-24-2014, 11:47 AM
I don't know if this has been shown yet (mods, feel free to move or delete if so), but there is a picture of CJ Fair just before he begins the drive. As you can clearly see if you go to https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BhH_Ic5IgAAWnoH.jpg:large, Fair is standing on the out of bounds line with both feet touching it. He should have been called out of bounds, and the ball is ours.

What do you think?

brevity
02-24-2014, 11:49 AM
A wise man once told me the first letter in the ESPN acronym stands for Entertainment.


Entertainment and Sports Presentation Network.

The P stands for Programming. Which is pretty accurate: programming is content, the pursuit of which was essential to ESPN's early years. Programming is why we have a steady history of World's Strongest Man competitions, and poker, and drag racing.

I want to believe you're making a clever statement with the word Presentation, but I can't figure out what it is. (If you'd said Propaganda, I'd have sporked you.)

Listen to Quants
02-24-2014, 11:52 AM
If only there was some way players could improve outside of the 200 minutes per game allocated to a team. Some way they could work with the coaches in an individual way, or perhaps in mock game situations where errors could immediately be broken down and addressed. Perhaps even a way in which they could improve their conditioning and strength. This bizarro world would give the coaches a way to evaluate the players, and determine who is most most able to help the team win. Unfortunately that doesn't exist. All that can only happen in the 40 minutes of a game when the fans also get to see the team play, and those 67 extra minutes Hairston has had over Plumlee this season is the one thing keeping Marshall from being a star.

GRIN. Yup, if only.

Still, I'd like to note the value in getting inexperienced players playing time, particularly in 'big' games (and I'm aware you never said there wasn't). The tendency some have to freeze up a little until they are used to it needs to be worked through. I used to imagine this happened to MP3 and am now happy to see his exuberance toned down (far, far from gone, but toned down getting toward MP2 style). "Act like ya been there" and all that.

jv001
02-24-2014, 11:55 AM
I don't know if this has been shown yet (mods, feel free to move or delete if so), but there is a picture of CJ Fair just before he begins the drive. As you can clearly see if you go to https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BhH_Ic5IgAAWnoH.jpg:large, Fair is standing on the out of bounds line with both feet touching it. He should have been called out of bounds, and the ball is ours.

What do you think?

DukeDevilDeb, it was discussed yesterday with arguments pro and con as to whether the heel is down, whether Hood was leaning into Fair, etc. I looked at it and I couldn't tell. If he was standing on the line, the ref was right there for the call and I don't see how he could have missed it. GoDuke!

J4Kop99
02-24-2014, 12:01 PM
Did ESPN ever show a close up replay on Fair's foot? In real time, it looked like it was out of bounds. In that picture a few posts up, it looked like his foot was out of bounds. I don't now how ESPN missed that.

ncexnyc
02-24-2014, 12:36 PM
DukeDevilDeb, it was discussed yesterday with arguments pro and con as to whether the heel is down, whether Hood was leaning into Fair, etc. I looked at it and I couldn't tell. If he was standing on the line, the ref was right there for the call and I don't see how he could have missed it. GoDuke!
I think what annoys Duke fans, at least me, is that the media only wants to discuss the charge/block play, but nobody is talking about this.

I also loved the karma aspect of this game, as K pointed out Rodney was involved with both of them. Also the intentional foul, in the first game we got the benefit of it not being called this time around, Dawkins got called for a bogus foul. Funny how these things workout.

NYBri
02-24-2014, 12:48 PM
I don't know if this has been shown yet (mods, feel free to move or delete if so), but there is a picture of CJ Fair just before he begins the drive. As you can clearly see if you go to https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BhH_Ic5IgAAWnoH.jpg:large, Fair is standing on the out of bounds line with both feet touching it. He should have been called out of bounds, and the ball is ours.

What do you think?

I have seen the photo and better still, I looked at the DVR replay many times at super slow speed...and he does hop at the same time the ball arrives. He could either have been called over the out of bounds line when he caught it, or, at the very least, called out because he hadn't established himself back in bounds from the hop.

Kfanarmy
02-24-2014, 12:59 PM
GRIN. Yup, if only.

Still, I'd like to note the value in getting inexperienced players playing time, particularly in 'big' games (and I'm aware you never said there wasn't). The tendency some have to freeze up a little until they are used to it needs to be worked through. I used to imagine this happened to MP3 and am now happy to see his exuberance toned down (far, far from gone, but toned down getting toward MP2 style). "Act like ya been there" and all that.

One of the things the crowd of folks, who were arguing a month ago that MP3 shouldn't have more minutes, keeps forgetting is that there is NO ONE on this team capable of replicating a starting big man in practice against MP3. Frankly to argue that any player gets the same type of development in practice as on the court is just silly. Not sure why folks just don't admit they were wrong and someone else was right and move along.

jv001
02-24-2014, 01:06 PM
I think what annoys Duke fans, at least me, is that the media only wants to discuss the charge/block play, but nobody is talking about this.

I also loved the karma aspect of this game, as K pointed out Rodney was involved with both of them. Also the intentional foul, in the first game we got the benefit of it not being called this time around, Dawkins got called for a bogus foul. Funny how these things workout.

Not only the media, but almost every tarheel fan I know. They don't want to talk about the Hood dunk play or the foul discrepancy in the against them. Once a heel always a heel. GoDuke!

fogey
02-24-2014, 01:11 PM
Did ESPN ever show a close up replay on Fair's foot? In real time, it looked like it was out of bounds. In that picture a few posts up, it looked like his foot was out of bounds. I don't now how ESPN missed that.

Hey, even IF, despite the video footage (sorry, pun there...) the conclusion was that Fair was not out of bounds when his hands first made contact with the ball, the next turnover kicks in, as he clearly shuffles both feet before commencing his drive. But ESPN is never going to explore either infraction, as that would undercut the "Duke gets all the calls" myth they enjoy so much.

jv001
02-24-2014, 01:17 PM
Hey, even IF, despite the video footage (sorry, pun there...) the conclusion was that Fair was not out of bounds when his hands first made contact with the ball, the next turnover kicks in, as he clearly shuffles both feet before commencing his drive. But ESPN is never going to explore either infraction, as that would undercut the "Duke gets all the calls" myth they enjoy so much.

Bet JB would have still had a mental breakdown if that call had been made. GoDuke!

-jk
02-24-2014, 03:38 PM
http://www.syracuse.com/orangebasketball/index.ssf/2014/02/does_duke_basketball_really_get_more_foul_calls_at _home_just_do_the_math.html

Apparently Syracuse gets all the calls!

-jk

77devil
02-24-2014, 03:51 PM
http://www.syracuse.com/orangebasketball/index.ssf/2014/02/does_duke_basketball_really_get_more_foul_calls_at _home_just_do_the_math.html

Apparently Syracuse gets all the calls!

-jk

Looks like MD is getting the royal send off.

2/3rds of our net away differential came from two games: Syracuse and UNC. Hmm.

duke96
02-24-2014, 03:54 PM
http://www.syracuse.com/orangebasketball/index.ssf/2014/02/does_duke_basketball_really_get_more_foul_calls_at _home_just_do_the_math.html

Apparently Syracuse gets all the calls!

-jk

Nice find!!!!

ArnieMc
02-24-2014, 03:57 PM
Practicing against The Oak next year will really help him.Practicing against Marshall next year will really help Okafor.

jv001
02-24-2014, 03:59 PM
http://www.syracuse.com/orangebasketball/index.ssf/2014/02/does_duke_basketball_really_get_more_foul_calls_at _home_just_do_the_math.html

Apparently Syracuse gets all the calls!

-jk

Virginia with +22 and +17 if I'm reading the chart correctly? Duke next to last in away differential -27. The terps last with -41. The heels even at 24 home and -24 away. Yeh, Syracuse leading the way at home fouls +29. GoDuke!

jv001
02-24-2014, 04:17 PM
On the Cuse site board, there's a thread on JB apologizing to the team for his 2 techs. Says the news came online and I think from the Dave Glenn show. JB told the team that he thought there was around 4 seconds left and not 10. If that's the case, he's either not as good a coach as I thought he was or he's probably lying. Can you imagine Coach K not knowing the time left in a game? GoDuke!

Wonder if JB has an assistant watching the scoreboard tonight for him.:cool:

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-24-2014, 04:21 PM
http://www.syracuse.com/orangebasketball/index.ssf/2014/02/does_duke_basketball_really_get_more_foul_calls_at _home_just_do_the_math.html

Apparently Syracuse gets all the calls!

-jk

Oh, facts. Haven't we learned that when facts don't fit our convenient narratives, we just ignore them?

:)

Very interesting chart. Do you think we're all spanking Maryland on the way out the door, or did they have a legitimate gripe this whole time?

Also, as has been noted over and over, a foul discrepancy doesn't necessarily denote bias. Against a bigger/faster team on offense, defenses frequently foul out of desperation or exhaustion. When you are behind with a few minutes to go, lots of teams foul to slow the clock and put the other team on the line. The fact that Syracuse, Duke, and UNC are frequently ahead in the final minutes would add a couple of fouls as teams try the Hail Mary.

But, still a very interesting chart.

Dr. Rosenrosen
02-24-2014, 04:22 PM
On the Cuse site board, there's a thread on JB apologizing to the team for his 2 techs. Says the news came online and I think from the Dave Glenn show. JB told the team that he thought there was around 4 seconds left and not 10. If that's the case, he's either not as good a coach as I thought he was or he's probably lying. Can you imagine Coach K not knowing the time left in a game? GoDuke!

Wonder if JB has an assistant watching the scoreboard tonight for him.:cool:
Even with 4 seconds there is still time to foul and hope for the chance to throw up a prayer. Pretty lame excuse.

jacone21
02-24-2014, 04:35 PM
http://www.syracuse.com/orangebasketball/index.ssf/2014/02/does_duke_basketball_really_get_more_foul_calls_at _home_just_do_the_math.html

Apparently Syracuse gets all the calls!

-jk

Presented with numbers like that, the haters then change the argument to...

"It's not the number of fouls. It's WHEN they're called! Whaaaaaa!!!!"

Yesterday, during the Accenture match play broadcast, one of the announcers quoted his grandmother as saying that you don't argue with an idiot, because people won't be able to tell the difference between you and the idiot.

That pretty much sums up arguing with the Duke gets all the calls crowd. Just let them suffer.

gus
02-24-2014, 04:38 PM
Oh, facts. Haven't we learned that when facts don't fit our convenient narratives, we just ignore them?

:)

Very interesting chart. Do you think we're all spanking Maryland on the way out the door, or did they have a legitimate gripe this whole time?

Also, as has been noted over and over, a foul discrepancy doesn't necessarily denote bias. Against a bigger/faster team on offense, defenses frequently foul out of desperation or exhaustion. When you are behind with a few minutes to go, lots of teams foul to slow the clock and put the other team on the line. The fact that Syracuse, Duke, and UNC are frequently ahead in the final minutes would add a couple of fouls as teams try the Hail Mary.

But, still a very interesting chart.

Is this foul differential for the season, or in ACC play?

Most major schools have enough OOC cupcakes, it would be shocking if they don't have a much better differential on home games than away games. This doesn't speak to officiating at all.

gus
02-24-2014, 04:55 PM
Frankly to argue that any player gets the same type of development in practice as on the court is just silly. Not sure why folks just don't admit they were wrong and someone else was right and move along.

Are you arguing that players develop more from actual games than practice? If so, I have to say plainly and forcefully that you are dead wrong. And I say this from experience.

There is truth in the notion that some aspects of actual competition can't be replicated in practice and can only be fully appreciated with experience, but this is only one aspect. Most development comes from hard work at practice.

-jk
02-24-2014, 05:00 PM
Is this foul differential for the season, or in ACC play?

Most major schools have enough OOC cupcakes, it would be shocking if they don't have a much better differential on home games than away games. This doesn't speak to officiating at all.

ACC Games only.

-jk

ncexnyc
02-24-2014, 05:03 PM
Looks like MD is getting the royal send off.

2/3rds of our net away differential came from two games: Syracuse and UNC. Hmm.

Royal send off? I can think of another word that starts with the letter s ;)

Troublemaker
02-24-2014, 05:34 PM
There is truth in the notion that some aspects of actual competition can't be replicated in practice and can only be fully appreciated with experience, but this is only one aspect. Most development comes from hard work at practice.

Bingo. Let's take, for example, one aspect of Marshall's game that many people have noted he does particularly well in Duke's defensive system: hedging. Do people think he became this expert hedger because he has hedged a total of what, 40 times, in games this season? Or did he develop that skill by hedging thousands of times over the course of 3 seasons' worth of practices? Even if game reps are more valuable than practice reps, the sheer NUMBER of practice reps means that most development occurs in practice.

MartyClark
02-24-2014, 05:42 PM
Are you arguing that players develop more from actual games than practice? If so, I have to say plainly and forcefully that you are dead wrong. And I say this from experience.

There is truth in the notion that some aspects of actual competition can't be replicated in practice and can only be fully appreciated with experience, but this is only one aspect. Most development comes from hard work at practice.

I'm curious, what's your experience? What about your experience makes you so certain that the other guy is wrong? Not arguing, at least yet, but I'd like you to elaborate.

From my perspective, it's not "either or". Players develop confidence, emotional strength and momentum when they play well in games. The game conditions are far different than practice conditions. I think both are important but I'm just speculating because I haven't played or coached at a significant level.

gus
02-24-2014, 05:44 PM
ACC Games only.

-jk

Then the data is wrong: they don't total zero.

greybeard
02-24-2014, 05:45 PM
Bingo. Let's take, for example, one aspect of Marshall's game that many people have noted he does particularly well in Duke's defensive system: hedging. Do people think he became this expert hedger because he has hedged a total of what, 40 times, in games this season? Or did he develop that skill by hedging thousands of times over the course of 3 seasons' worth of practices? Even if game reps are more valuable than practice reps, the sheer NUMBER of practice reps means that most development occurs in practice.

I think that he has developed the "skill" of hedging because he comprehends every aspect of it and has played out many thousands of scenarios in his imagination. In fact, ask any performer, maybe even yourselves, if there is a physical activity you feel very competent with, very attracted to, how much time have you spent in imagination with it.

The imagination, my friends, might well have a narrative, but it is preceded by the picture/sensation/balance, the visceral experience--it is like the radio play-by-play. The imagination of an experience is NOT in words. Nor is the performance of it, unless you are inserting that which impedes. Nature knows of no other option.

-jk
02-24-2014, 06:03 PM
Then the data is wrong: they don't total zero.

Yep. Looks like one foul was credited on the wrong side. I think the overall trend is still clear. And fairly meaningless.

But still fun to share with folks who say we get all the calls - they'll get it.

-jk

Troublemaker
02-24-2014, 06:05 PM
greybeard, I'm not 100% sure but I think what you wrote is too ribald for me to respond to. For shame, sir, for shame.

Wheat/"/"/"
02-24-2014, 06:35 PM
I'm confused. I've had to listen for years from Duke fans that UNC gets all the calls. How can Duke and UNC both get all the calls? :)

-jk
02-24-2014, 06:37 PM
I'm confused. I've had to listen for years from Duke fans that UNC gets all the calls. How can Duke and UNC both get all the calls? :)

If you read the article, Syracuse gets all the calls.

-jk

fidel
02-24-2014, 06:43 PM
greybeard, I'm not 100% sure but I think what you wrote is too ribald for me to respond to. For shame, sir, for shame.

Now that made me laugh.

77devil
02-24-2014, 06:46 PM
I'm confused. I've had to listen for years from Duke fans that UNC gets all the calls. How can Duke and UNC both get all the calls? :)


If you read the article, Syracuse gets all the calls.

-jk

But the data show that UNC gets more calls than Duke. No surprise Wheat. Confirms that what you've been told is true. Again, no surprise.

gus
02-24-2014, 07:14 PM
I'm curious, what's your experience? What about your experience makes you so certain that the other guy is wrong? Not arguing, at least yet, but I'd like you to elaborate.

From my perspective, it's not "either or". Players develop confidence, emotional strength and momentum when they play well in games. The game conditions are far different than practice conditions. I think both are important but I'm just speculating because I haven't played or coached at a significant level.

It's a weak debating tactic for me to have resorted to "trust me, I know", but my experience is as a mediocre varsity letterwinner at Duke. My singular experience doesn't matter though: I doubt you'll find many successful college athletes who make the claim that they developed more during competition than practice. Even if, as Troublemaker already pointed out, game reps are more valuable than practice reps, you get far more reps in practice. Hairston has only had 67 more minutes than Plumlee so far this season (the original point of this mini discussion). I would get more practice in than that most days before any of my friends were awake, and the elite athletes worked far harder than I did.

FerryFor50
02-24-2014, 07:25 PM
Oh, facts. Haven't we learned that when facts don't fit our convenient narratives, we just ignore them?

:)

Very interesting chart. Do you think we're all spanking Maryland on the way out the door, or did they have a legitimate gripe this whole time?

Also, as has been noted over and over, a foul discrepancy doesn't necessarily denote bias. Against a bigger/faster team on offense, defenses frequently foul out of desperation or exhaustion. When you are behind with a few minutes to go, lots of teams foul to slow the clock and put the other team on the line. The fact that Syracuse, Duke, and UNC are frequently ahead in the final minutes would add a couple of fouls as teams try the Hail Mary.

But, still a very interesting chart.

Generally, style of play does factor in more. But do you really think a team changes their style of play on the road? To the tune of a complete 180 in foul calls?

Duke gets +12 at home according to that chart. UNC is +24! And on the road, Duke is -27. UNC is -24.

Play style does not explain it all...

MartyClark
02-24-2014, 07:48 PM
It's a weak debating tactic for me to have resorted to "trust me, I know", but my experience is as a mediocre varsity letterwinner at Duke. My singular experience doesn't matter though: I doubt you'll find many successful college athletes who make the claim that they developed more during competition than practice. Even if, as Troublemaker already pointed out, game reps are more valuable than practice reps, you get far more reps in practice. Hairston has only had 67 more minutes than Plumlee so far this season (the original point of this mini discussion). I would get more practice in than that most days before any of my friends were awake, and the elite athletes worked far harder than I did.

Thanks, I appreciate the context. You are probably being too modest. On my best day, I couldn't be a mediocre varsity player at Duke and you obviously have some experience and insight.

duke96
02-24-2014, 07:54 PM
Thanks, I appreciate the context. You are probably being too modest. On my best day, I couldn't be a mediocre varsity player at Duke and you obviously have some experience and insight.

Marty, you were way better than mediocre!

MartyClark
02-24-2014, 07:56 PM
Marty, you were way better than mediocre!

Yes, the real Marty Clark was. Not me.

Des Esseintes
02-24-2014, 08:19 PM
It's a weak debating tactic for me to have resorted to "trust me, I know", but my experience is as a mediocre varsity letterwinner at Duke. My singular experience doesn't matter though: I doubt you'll find many successful college athletes who make the claim that they developed more during competition than practice. Even if, as Troublemaker already pointed out, game reps are more valuable than practice reps, you get far more reps in practice. Hairston has only had 67 more minutes than Plumlee so far this season (the original point of this mini discussion). I would get more practice in than that most days before any of my friends were awake, and the elite athletes worked far harder than I did.

Agreed. And the thing is, only in sports would people make this ridiculous claim that you can only develop on the biggest stage. Has anyone in the history of the world claimed that the way you build a world-class piano player is to give him time in front of an audience at Carnegie Hall? Or that we should just let medical students start cutting into people? Or that pilots should get to drive 747s from Day One? No, we expect those people to study and observe and PRACTICE and assist and use simulators first. No one thinks a surgeon's development was held back because he was denied the right to perform heart transplants before he was fully ready.

Newton_14
02-24-2014, 08:52 PM
I'm confused. I've had to listen for years from Duke fans that UNC gets all the calls. How can Duke and UNC both get all the calls? :)
eli
I'd love to meet one of those Duke fans, because around the Triangle the only fans I ever hear griping about how the ref's screwed them every single time their team lost or every single time Duke wins, is NC State and UNC fans. All I heard all day today at work was how the ref's won the game for Duke Saturday night, from the UNC fans in the office. One poor soul (unc grad) argued with me all day in person and email that Boeheim's actions were 1. Justifiable "He absolutely had every right to do what he did there and 2, get this, "Boeheim's actions had absolutely no impact at all on the end result of the game. The ref's charging call gave the win to Duke and Syracuse had zero chance to win after that play" end quote.

Now I ask you. How on earth is it possible to have an adult, mature, reasonable, discussion about a basketball game with a person that holds a 4 year College Degree from supposedly one of the finest public institutions in America, yet holds that view point about Saturday Nights game? I would say it is comicable, but in fact it is actually kind of sad. The worst part? There are thousands of Unc grads, and Unc fans here that hold that exact same view point. I foolishly wasted part of my day responding to a couple of his emails, so shame on me, for that.

Syracuse was still very much in that game until Boeheim lost his mind. CJ Fair certainly believes his coach deprived them of a chance to win the game. He said as much after the game. With how Duke was shooting foul shots, and the fact Syracuse could have fouled, forced a 5 second call, or a turnover in the backcourt, Syracuse could have tied the game to force OT or won it with a 3. 10.3 seconds is an eternity in college basketball. For someone to think/believe Boeheim's actions had no impact on the game is beyond incredulous.

As to your comment, I know a lot of Duke fans, even though we are out numbered in this area hundreds to 1, by both NC State, and Unc fans/grads, but I have met very few Duke fans that believe every Duke loss is due to the refs screwing us, and every State win or Unc win is due to them "getting all the calls". I can't speak for the state of Florida where you live though I doubt you can find 50 people down there that give a rip about basketball anyway let alone that actually pull for Duke, so I am find it very unbelievable you have to interact with lots of Duke fans, much less, lots that believe that way.

As to the "Duke gets all the calls" nonsense, ESPN loves it because it sells. So they are going to promote it to the max. They worked it into the Maryland/Syracuse game numerous times tonight including breaks in the game, halftime, etc. showing the replay of the play, the Boeheim post-game presser comments, and so forth. After the game in the Carrier Dome, ESPN and others promoted the fact that it was 'the best game ever at the Carrier Dome', and there were small amounts of mentioning of the no call on Hood's dunk attempt. Now after this weekend's game, the only thing being promoted is how a terrible call cost Syracuse the game and forced poor ol jimmy boeheim to have to get thrown out of a game for the first time ever 'to take a stand for his players" because they got jobbed on tobacco road in Cameron Indoor where Duke gets all the calls.

Pathetic, but it is what it is. While on the one hand it irritates me to no end, on the other hand, all I care about is Duke won the game, because it was huge to get a win against the Number 1 team in the country, especially after the 2nd half debacle at unc. This team needed to win that game, and they went out and won it. On their own. By making plays, and playing good defense.

It was a great game and great defensive battle. Too bad a veteran coach did not have the class and self-control to let the players finish it out in those last, critical 10 seconds. He basically forfeited the game, down 2 with 10 seconds left. I believe Duke wins anyway. Also believe if they had called it a block and Fair made or missed the FT, Duke comes down and scores to win it. Our players would have found a way to win it, just like against UVa, and Maryland.

My two cents on the whole thing..

FerryFor50
02-24-2014, 08:56 PM
eli
I'd love to meet one of those Duke fans, because around the Triangle the only fans I ever hear griping about how the ref's screwed them every single time their team lost or every single time Duke wins, is NC State and UNC fans. All I heard all day today at work was how the ref's won the game for Duke Saturday night, from the UNC fans in the office. One poor soul (unc grad) argued with me all day in person and email that Boeheim's actions were 1. Justifiable "He absolutely had every right to do what he did there and 2, get this, "Boeheim's actions had absolutely no impact at all on the end result of the game. The ref's charging call gave the win to Duke and Syracuse had zero chance to win after that play" end quote.

Now I ask you. How on earth is it possible to have an adult, mature, reasonable, discussion about a basketball game with a person that holds a 4 year College Degree from supposedly one of the finest public institutions in America, yet holds that view point about Saturday Nights game? I would say it is comicable, but in fact it is actually kind of sad. The worst part? There are thousands of Unc grads, and Unc fans here that hold that exact same view point. I foolishly wasted part of my day responding to a couple of his emails, so shame on me, for that.

Syracuse was still very much in that game until Boeheim lost his mind. CJ Fair certainly believes his coach deprived them of a chance to win the game. He said as much after the game. With how Duke was shooting foul shots, and the fact Syracuse could have fouled, forced a 5 second call, or a turnover in the backcourt, Syracuse could have tied the game to force OT or won it with a 3. 10.3 seconds is an eternity in college basketball. For someone to think/believe Boeheim's actions had no impact on the game is beyond incredulous.

As to your comment, I know a lot of Duke fans, even though we are out numbered in this area hundreds to 1, by both NC State, and Unc fans/grads, but I have met very few Duke fans that believe every Duke loss is due to the refs screwing us, and every State win or Unc win is due to them "getting all the calls". I can't speak for the state of Florida where you live though I doubt you can find 50 people down there that give a rip about basketball anyway let alone that actually pull for Duke, so I am find it very unbelievable you have to interact with lots of Duke fans, much less, lots that believe that way.

As to the "Duke gets all the calls" nonsense, ESPN loves it because it sells. So they are going to promote it to the max. They worked it into the Maryland/Syracuse game numerous times tonight including breaks in the game, halftime, etc. showing the replay of the play, the Boeheim post-game presser comments, and so forth. After the game in the Carrier Dome, ESPN and others promoted the fact that it was 'the best game ever at the Carrier Dome', and there were small amounts of mentioning of the no call on Hood's dunk attempt. Now after this weekend's game, the only thing being promoted is how a terrible call cost Syracuse the game and forced poor ol jimmy boeheim to have to get thrown out of a game for the first time ever 'to take a stand for his players" because they got jobbed on tobacco road in Cameron Indoor where Duke gets all the calls.

Pathetic, but it is what it is. While on the one hand it irritates me to no end, on the other hand, all I care about is Duke won the game, because it was huge to get a win against the Number 1 team in the country, especially after the 2nd half debacle at unc. This team needed to win that game, and they went out and won it. On their own. By making plays, and playing good defense.

It was a great game and great defensive battle. Too bad a veteran coach did not have the class and self-control to let the players finish it out in those last, critical 10 seconds. He basically forfeited the game, down 2 with 10 seconds left. I believe Duke wins anyway. Also believe if they had called it a block and Fair made or missed the FT, Duke comes down and scores to win it. Our players would have found a way to win it, just like against UVa, and Maryland.

My two cents on the whole thing..

Two cents? That was more like 85 cents.

You could have just said "scoreboard." :p

Newton_14
02-24-2014, 10:00 PM
Two cents? That was more like 85 cents.

You could have just said "scoreboard." :p

Ha. Good one. Can you tell I had to listen to this nonsense all frickin day at work?

I guess I fell for it one more time and got one last rant out of my system! I vow to take the high road moving forward.

Scoreboard indeed.

Furniture
02-24-2014, 10:31 PM
Just heard another description of Borewhine on ESPN.
The commentator was going through the Cuses last few close games and he described the Duke game like this
"Saturday at Duke the Orange thought they had tied the game with ten seconds left when an offensive foul and a double technical on coach Borewhine turned him into a freak!;):rolleyes:

sagegrouse
02-24-2014, 10:32 PM
I am now thinking Boeheims wacko outburst was artful -- spontaneous, sure, but with a real long-term purpose. It would be natural for Boeheim (and Brey and Dixon) to believe that the "new guys" aren't gonna get a break from anybody and will have to take their lumps for a year or two. And "anybody" includes the officials. Boeheim went off, I think, because he wanted to call attention to a questionnable call at the end of the game that undeniably hurt Syracuse and, therefore, to tell the world he would not accept bad calls against Syracuse at any time, including the first year of membership in the ACC. For this act to work, it had to be totally outrageous and visible to everyone in college basketball.

And, boy, did he ever "tell the world." Ask Turgeon if Syracuse got a break on Maryland's last shot, where there was contact and a possible foul. It may be that Ol' Jim's berserk behavior at DukeCameron is already paying dividends.

Furniture
02-24-2014, 10:47 PM
I am now thinking Boeheims wacko outburst was artful -- spontaneous, sure, but with a real long-term purpose. It would be natural for Boeheim (and Brey and Dixon) to believe that the "new guys" aren't gonna get a break from anybody and will have to take their lumps for a year or two. And "anybody" includes the officials. Boeheim went off, I think, because he wanted to call attention to a questionnable call at the end of the game that undeniably hurt Syracuse and, therefore, to tell the world he would not accept bad calls against Syracuse at any time, including the first year of membership in the ACC. For this act to work, it had to be totally outrageous and visible to everyone in college basketball.

And, boy, did he ever "tell the world." Ask Turgeon if Syracuse got a break on Maryland's last shot, where there was contact and a possible foul. It may be that Ol' Jim's berserk behavior at DukeCameron is already paying dividends.

As I was reading your post the last play of Maryland came to my mind. WOW! I completely agree. Alex Ferguson, former Manchester United Manager ( soccer..sorry) was a master at doing the same thing. Sometimes United would or score a goal to draw in overtime and no one could fathom out why the game had gone on so long. In the end people stopped calling it extra time and called this period of the game Fergie Time instead.

Kedsy
02-24-2014, 11:20 PM
As to your comment, I know a lot of Duke fans, even though we are out numbered in this area hundreds to 1, by both NC State, and Unc fans/grads, but I have met very few Duke fans that believe every Duke loss is due to the refs screwing us, and every State win or Unc win is due to them "getting all the calls".

I don't know how old Wheat is, but back when I was in school (which admittedly is a long time ago), it was a common mantra that "UNC gets all the calls." Back then, they were the kings and we were the upstarts, which may have had something to do with it.

-bdbd
02-24-2014, 11:44 PM
As I was reading your post the last play of Maryland came to my mind. WOW! I completely agree. Alex Ferguson, former Manchester United Manager ( soccer..sorry) was a master at doing the same thing. Sometimes United would or score a goal to draw in overtime and no one could fathom out why the game had gone on so long. In the end people stopped calling it extra time and called this period of the game Fergie Time instead.

Great minds....

Yep, I have been thinking exactly the same thing. No doubt that there was some spontanaity to it, but a big part of me really wonders if there wasn't also some calculating going on, especially as the tantrum continued. Not like he didn't EXPECT to get the T at some point.

I'm a cup "half full" kinda guy though. So, just maybe, we can take credit for the late no-call Monday night as MD was going for the win in the final 6 seconds, and the refs swallowed their collective whistles (to be fair, it WAS a close call, and I kinda agreed with it). Call it, "Duke's parting gift to MD!" ;)

ElSid
02-25-2014, 12:07 AM
The numbers speak for themselves. The Bohemian had never been thrown out of a regular season game. While Cameron is a loud and emotional place to play a game, I doubt it really set him over the edge for the first time in 38 years. I immediately thought that this was a stunt to set himself and his team up for future haggling or complaining about calls. I'm really glad our coach doesn't rely on such ploys.

I just watched the replay of the Maryland game, though, and while there was certainly contact, it wasn't really quite as obvious a foul. The Hood foul was a foul, either a charge or a block. A no call is tough to swallow, because it was obviously a foul. And I agree with K and Hood after, objectively of course, watching the replay of the Hood charge. It was a charge. But, man, could you imagine if Maryland had gotten the call? All the butthurt Cuse fans and former players tweeting their woe is me story. Really wish it would have happened.

Wheat/"/"/"
02-25-2014, 05:32 AM
eli
I'd love to meet one of those Duke fans, because around the Triangle the only fans I ever hear griping about how the ref's screwed them every single time their team lost or every single time Duke wins, is NC State and UNC fans. All I heard all day today at work was how the ref's won the game for Duke Saturday night, from the UNC fans in the office. One poor soul (unc grad) argued with me all day in person and email that Boeheim's actions were 1. Justifiable "He absolutely had every right to do what he did there and 2, get this, "Boeheim's actions had absolutely no impact at all on the end result of the game. The ref's charging call gave the win to Duke and Syracuse had zero chance to win after that play" end quote.

Now I ask you. How on earth is it possible to have an adult, mature, reasonable, discussion about a basketball game with a person that holds a 4 year College Degree from supposedly one of the finest public institutions in America, yet holds that view point about Saturday Nights game? I would say it is comicable, but in fact it is actually kind of sad. The worst part? There are thousands of Unc grads, and Unc fans here that hold that exact same view point. I foolishly wasted part of my day responding to a couple of his emails, so shame on me, for that.

Syracuse was still very much in that game until Boeheim lost his mind. CJ Fair certainly believes his coach deprived them of a chance to win the game. He said as much after the game. With how Duke was shooting foul shots, and the fact Syracuse could have fouled, forced a 5 second call, or a turnover in the backcourt, Syracuse could have tied the game to force OT or won it with a 3. 10.3 seconds is an eternity in college basketball. For someone to think/believe Boeheim's actions had no impact on the game is beyond incredulous.

As to your comment, I know a lot of Duke fans, even though we are out numbered in this area hundreds to 1, by both NC State, and Unc fans/grads, but I have met very few Duke fans that believe every Duke loss is due to the refs screwing us, and every State win or Unc win is due to them "getting all the calls". I can't speak for the state of Florida where you live though I doubt you can find 50 people down there that give a rip about basketball anyway let alone that actually pull for Duke, so I am find it very unbelievable you have to interact with lots of Duke fans, much less, lots that believe that way.

As to the "Duke gets all the calls" nonsense, ESPN loves it because it sells. So they are going to promote it to the max. They worked it into the Maryland/Syracuse game numerous times tonight including breaks in the game, halftime, etc. showing the replay of the play, the Boeheim post-game presser comments, and so forth. After the game in the Carrier Dome, ESPN and others promoted the fact that it was 'the best game ever at the Carrier Dome', and there were small amounts of mentioning of the no call on Hood's dunk attempt. Now after this weekend's game, the only thing being promoted is how a terrible call cost Syracuse the game and forced poor ol jimmy boeheim to have to get thrown out of a game for the first time ever 'to take a stand for his players" because they got jobbed on tobacco road in Cameron Indoor where Duke gets all the calls.

Pathetic, but it is what it is. While on the one hand it irritates me to no end, on the other hand, all I care about is Duke won the game, because it was huge to get a win against the Number 1 team in the country, especially after the 2nd half debacle at unc. This team needed to win that game, and they went out and won it. On their own. By making plays, and playing good defense.

It was a great game and great defensive battle. Too bad a veteran coach did not have the class and self-control to let the players finish it out in those last, critical 10 seconds. He basically forfeited the game, down 2 with 10 seconds left. I believe Duke wins anyway. Also believe if they had called it a block and Fair made or missed the FT, Duke comes down and scores to win it. Our players would have found a way to win it, just like against UVa, and Maryland.

My two cents on the whole thing..

Geeeeez Newt...that was more like a buck and a quarters worth. :)

I submit one Tyler Hansbrough, a Duke fans favorite whipping boy for "he got all the calls" as exhibit one in my defense.

I rest my case.

dukelifer
02-25-2014, 05:38 AM
Geeeeez Newt...that was more like a buck and a quarters worth. :)

I submit one Tyler Hansbrough, a Duke fans favorite whipping boy for "he got all the calls" as exhibit one in my defense.

I rest my case.

Actually most Duke fans were more annoyed by the calls that were never made- like travelling.

Wheat/"/"/"
02-25-2014, 05:38 AM
I am now thinking Boeheims wacko outburst was artful -- spontaneous, sure, but with a real long-term purpose. It would be natural for Boeheim (and Brey and Dixon) to believe that the "new guys" aren't gonna get a break from anybody and will have to take their lumps for a year or two. And "anybody" includes the officials. Boeheim went off, I think, because he wanted to call attention to a questionnable call at the end of the game that undeniably hurt Syracuse and, therefore, to tell the world he would not accept bad calls against Syracuse at any time, including the first year of membership in the ACC. For this act to work, it had to be totally outrageous and visible to everyone in college basketball.

And, boy, did he ever "tell the world." Ask Turgeon if Syracuse got a break on Maryland's last shot, where there was contact and a possible foul. It may be that Ol' Jim's berserk behavior at DukeCameron is already paying dividends.

I thought it was because he saw a similar play earlier where Parker drove and it was called a block.

Agree his reaction was spontaneous and I bet he really regrets it, but he'll never admit it now.

jv001
02-25-2014, 07:00 AM
I thought it was because he saw a similar play earlier where Parker drove and it was called a block.

Agree his reaction was spontaneous and I bet he really regrets it, but he'll never admit it now.

Ah, there's that tarheel mentality again. Another little dig. Be careful, someone will call you a troll. Not me, but likely someone. GoDuke!

jv001
02-25-2014, 07:04 AM
eli
I'd love to meet one of those Duke fans, because around the Triangle the only fans I ever hear griping about how the ref's screwed them every single time their team lost or every single time Duke wins, is NC State and UNC fans. All I heard all day today at work was how the ref's won the game for Duke Saturday night, from the UNC fans in the office. One poor soul (unc grad) argued with me all day in person and email that Boeheim's actions were 1. Justifiable "He absolutely had every right to do what he did there and 2, get this, "Boeheim's actions had absolutely no impact at all on the end result of the game. The ref's charging call gave the win to Duke and Syracuse had zero chance to win after that play" end quote.

Now I ask you. How on earth is it possible to have an adult, mature, reasonable, discussion about a basketball game with a person that holds a 4 year College Degree from supposedly one of the finest public institutions in America, yet holds that view point about Saturday Nights game? I would say it is comicable, but in fact it is actually kind of sad. The worst part? There are thousands of Unc grads, and Unc fans here that hold that exact same view point. I foolishly wasted part of my day responding to a couple of his emails, so shame on me, for that.

Syracuse was still very much in that game until Boeheim lost his mind. CJ Fair certainly believes his coach deprived them of a chance to win the game. He said as much after the game. With how Duke was shooting foul shots, and the fact Syracuse could have fouled, forced a 5 second call, or a turnover in the backcourt, Syracuse could have tied the game to force OT or won it with a 3. 10.3 seconds is an eternity in college basketball. For someone to think/believe Boeheim's actions had no impact on the game is beyond incredulous.

As to your comment, I know a lot of Duke fans, even though we are out numbered in this area hundreds to 1, by both NC State, and Unc fans/grads, but I have met very few Duke fans that believe every Duke loss is due to the refs screwing us, and every State win or Unc win is due to them "getting all the calls". I can't speak for the state of Florida where you live though I doubt you can find 50 people down there that give a rip about basketball anyway let alone that actually pull for Duke, so I am find it very unbelievable you have to interact with lots of Duke fans, much less, lots that believe that way.

As to the "Duke gets all the calls" nonsense, ESPN loves it because it sells. So they are going to promote it to the max. They worked it into the Maryland/Syracuse game numerous times tonight including breaks in the game, halftime, etc. showing the replay of the play, the Boeheim post-game presser comments, and so forth. After the game in the Carrier Dome, ESPN and others promoted the fact that it was 'the best game ever at the Carrier Dome', and there were small amounts of mentioning of the no call on Hood's dunk attempt. Now after this weekend's game, the only thing being promoted is how a terrible call cost Syracuse the game and forced poor ol jimmy boeheim to have to get thrown out of a game for the first time ever 'to take a stand for his players" because they got jobbed on tobacco road in Cameron Indoor where Duke gets all the calls.

Pathetic, but it is what it is. While on the one hand it irritates me to no end, on the other hand, all I care about is Duke won the game, because it was huge to get a win against the Number 1 team in the country, especially after the 2nd half debacle at unc. This team needed to win that game, and they went out and won it. On their own. By making plays, and playing good defense.

It was a great game and great defensive battle. Too bad a veteran coach did not have the class and self-control to let the players finish it out in those last, critical 10 seconds. He basically forfeited the game, down 2 with 10 seconds left. I believe Duke wins anyway. Also believe if they had called it a block and Fair made or missed the FT, Duke comes down and scores to win it. Our players would have found a way to win it, just like against UVa, and Maryland.

My two cents on the whole thing..

Maybe it's because they don't have common sense to go with that unc education. Or maybe it is the unc education that's at fault. :cool: GoDuke!

Wheat/"/"/"
02-25-2014, 07:10 AM
Ah, there's that tarheel mentality again. Another little dig. Be careful, someone will call you a troll. Not me, but likely someone. GoDuke!

No dig, just an observation on another similar 50-50 call.

jv001
02-25-2014, 07:22 AM
No dig, just an observation on another similar 50-50 call.

I agree both were 50/50 calls, but the one at Cuse on Hood was a no brainer. So, I still think the ref owes Duke one. :cool: Oh, yes I can remember when Dean had the refs in his back pocket, lol. GoDuke!

whereinthehellami
02-25-2014, 07:37 AM
It used to get me riled up when other fan bases would talk about how hard it is to beat Duke because it is 8 (w/ the refs) versus 5 and Duke gets all the calls. But now that i have matured beyond my years, I revel in their defeatist attitude. For that is loser talk. They are saying how stacked the odds are against them. How unfair playing Duke is. How they are going to lose. They are building Duke up into a team that is going to win. They are giving Duke an edge before the game starts. I'll take it.

OldSchool
02-25-2014, 07:52 AM
I am now thinking Boeheims wacko outburst was artful -- spontaneous, sure, but with a real long-term purpose. It would be natural for Boeheim (and Brey and Dixon) to believe that the "new guys" aren't gonna get a break from anybody and will have to take their lumps for a year or two. And "anybody" includes the officials. Boeheim went off, I think, because he wanted to call attention to a questionnable call at the end of the game that undeniably hurt Syracuse and, therefore, to tell the world he would not accept bad calls against Syracuse at any time, including the first year of membership in the ACC. For this act to work, it had to be totally outrageous and visible to everyone in college basketball.

This is my theory as well. I think Boeheim had decided that if the right opportunity presented itself, i.e. a "bad call" late in the game, then he was going to throw a tantrum in order to make this larger point. Whining about the "bad call" afterward just talking to the press does not nearly make the point as strongly as storming the court during the game.

But the irony is, Boeheim didn't need to do this to achieve anything. The conference is absolutely thrilled to have Jim Boeheim and the Syracuse basketball program in the fold. I've watched a number of the games by Syracuse against old-line ACC schools and the last thing one could say is that the officiating has gone against Syracuse.

Indeed, look at how the conference reacted to Boeheim's tirade. They gave him a complete pass: "Great passion and drama!" I would bet that a number of young coaches in the conference would not have been cut the same slack for abusing officials like that (although I think K and Roy would get the same slack).

UrinalCake
02-25-2014, 08:17 AM
I thought it was because he saw a similar play earlier where Parker drove and it was called a block.

That was also a tough play to call but a little different in that Parker was on a fast break when the Syracuse player (Gbinije?) stepped in front of him to try to draw the charge. Hard to tell whether he was set but you're far less likely to get that call in a fast break situation (just ask Greg Paulus).

I do agree that it's especially tough when two similar plays happen on opposite ends and the call goes against you both times (cough cough, Jabari Parker offensive foul followed immediately by Matcus Paige push off)...

Steven43
02-25-2014, 08:21 AM
Digger Phelps just said he thought it was a charge. I agree with him. If I were a Syracuse fan I'd probably disagree. I think Hood established position. But this was a very close call. Very. Boeheim said at his press conference it was the worst call of the year. Well, if you read his lips when he got ejected, you'll know how I feel about that. The non-call against Hood was much worse. And you didn't hear Coach K making any hyperbolic comments after the last game. I lost some respect for Boeheim tonight.

I was shocked that Boeheim displayed such breathtaking belligerence and arrogance in Cameron Indoor, the very court that is named after the man who is allegedly his great friend and who just happens to be the head coach of the national team (Team USA) on which he (Boeheim) is an assistant. I think Boeheim's display of poor coaching (he cost his team any chance of winning the game), poor sportsmanship, and lack of respect for his friend, Mike, speaks volumes about his character.

jv001
02-25-2014, 08:22 AM
That was also a tough play to call but a little different in that Parker was on a fast break when the Syracuse player (Gbinije?) stepped in front of him to try to draw the charge. Hard to tell whether he was set but you're far less likely to get that call in a fast break situation (just ask Greg Paulus).

I do agree that it's especially tough when two similar plays happen and the call goes against you both times (cough cough, Jabari Parker offensive foul followed immediately by Matcus Paige push off)...

Now that's a fact Jack. I watched that play in slo-mo and Paige did push off on his jumper. I could not see if Jabari did or did not push off. GoDuke!

MCFinARL
02-25-2014, 09:02 AM
eli

Now I ask you. How on earth is it possible to have an adult, mature, reasonable, discussion about a basketball game with a person that holds a 4 year College Degree from supposedly one of the finest public institutions in America, yet holds that view point about Saturday Nights game? I would say it is comicable, but in fact it is actually kind of sad. The worst part? There are thousands of Unc grads, and Unc fans here that hold that exact same view point. I foolishly wasted part of my day responding to a couple of his emails, so shame on me, for that.



Suggested script to reply to such emails in the future. "Interesting viewpoint. I have a lot of work to do."

Kedsy
02-25-2014, 10:15 AM
Like they say in the Kia commercial, "How you like me now?" Yes I'm talking to those of you who scoffed at the notion the Marshall's minutes would go up to the 10-15 minute range.

Here's a quote from the recent Herald-Sun article:



Duke could have used Plumlee’s strength, defense and rebounding ability earlier this season. Krzyzewski agrees but said it wasn’t possible.

“He wasn’t ready to do that,” Krzyzewski said.


So maybe the people earlier in the season who said Marshall wasn't ready actually were on to something.

oldnavy
02-25-2014, 10:31 AM
Boeheim isn't really endearing himself to the ACC is he... going back to when the announcement was made that Syracuse was joining the ACC and his carping about Greensboro.... basically insulting the entire state of NC and Southerners in general...

Now what's with his petulant reaction to a 50/50 type call? I'll give him a break on that "in the moment" breakdown... it happens. But he is basking in it... most leaders would step up and say publically that he took the game out of his kids hands and for that he is sorry... but not Jimbo... he's proud of himself... hard to figure.

If he doesn't watch himself, he's going to start making Ol Roy seem rational and well balanced....

jv001
02-25-2014, 10:39 AM
Boeheim isn't really endearing himself to the ACC is he... going back to when the announcement was made that Syracuse was joining the ACC and his carping about Greensboro.... basically insulting the entire state of NC and Southerners in general...

Now what's with his petulant reaction to a 50/50 type call? I'll give him a break on that "in the moment" breakdown... it happens. But he is basking in it... most leaders would step up and say publically that he took the game out of his kids hands and for that he is sorry... but not Jimbo... he's proud of himself... hard to figure.

If he doesn't watch himself, he's going to start making Ol Roy seem rational and well balanced....

Wonder what JB would have done if Rodney had gone up and whacked Fair across the arm as he was shooting? Sound familiar? That's what happened to Rodney at Cuse. Bet JB would not have been gracious like Coach K was. Dan Patrick just said on his TV show that JB was out of line and wondered what he would do if one of his players did that? Now, like you said, he's basking in it. He's milking it to make sure he get's the calls the rest of the year. Never mind that his team has gotten them all year. I just don't get it, that the ACC is giving him the amnesty treatment. He's bad mouthed the ACC, the refs and even the city of Greensboro. He looks like he's become a senile old man. GoDuke!

flyingdutchdevil
02-25-2014, 10:42 AM
Wonder what JB would have done if Rodney had gone up and whacked Fair across the arm as he was shooting? Sound familiar? That's what happened to Rodney at Cuse. Bet JB would not have been gracious like Coach K was. Dan Patrick just said on his TV show that JB was out of line and wondered what he would do if one of his players did that? Now, like you said, he's basking in it. He's milking it to make sure he get's the calls the rest of the year. Never mind that his team has gotten them all year. I just don't get it, that the ACC is giving him the amnesty treatment. He's bad mouthed the ACC, the refs and even the city of Greensboro. He looks like he's become a senile old man. GoDuke!

If this is indeed the outcome of JB's insane rantings, then JB is a genius. Seriously. I really hope this isn't the outcome though.

oldnavy
02-25-2014, 10:48 AM
If this is indeed the outcome of JB's insane rantings, then JB is a genius. Seriously. I really hope this isn't the outcome though.

Personally, I think this will backfire on him... I know that refs are professionals and they have to compartmentalize things, but his public display of total disrespect has to be in the back of these guys minds....

Time will tell.

Indoor66
02-25-2014, 12:08 PM
Personally, I think this will backfire on him... I know that refs are professionals and they have to compartmentalize things, but his public display of total disrespect has to be in the back of these guys minds....

Time will tell.

I agree with you, old one. Refs are like anyone else. They don't like their integrity questioned.

Kfanarmy
02-25-2014, 12:44 PM
Here's a quote from the recent Herald-Sun article:



So maybe the people earlier in the season who said Marshall wasn't ready actually were on to something. That seems a bit self gratifying, given your argument that MP3 shouldn't take any of Josh Hairston's minutes and as I recall, you didn't see him getting any more run than the two minutes he was getting at the time, until next year.

Kedsy
02-25-2014, 12:52 PM
That seems a bit self gratifying, given your argument that MP3 shouldn't take any of Josh Hairston's minutes and as I recall, you didn't see him getting any more run than the two minutes he was getting at the time, until next year.

No, my recollection of my argument was Marshall shouldn't take Josh's minutes at that time, because he wasn't ready, and that I hoped Marshall could get up to 10 mpg this season but wasn't confident it would happen. I definitely said he wouldn't get up to 15 until next year, and it looks like I may have been wrong about that.

ncexnyc
02-25-2014, 01:04 PM
Here's a quote from the recent Herald-Sun article:



So maybe the people earlier in the season who said Marshall wasn't ready actually were on to something.
What's funny about this is so many people who said he wouldn't be of any use are scrambling for anything to justify their mistaken belief. Spin it however you like, there were a number of us who saw something in Marshall that the team drastically needed and who had faith in the kid.

Des Esseintes
02-25-2014, 01:13 PM
That seems a bit self gratifying, given your argument that MP3 shouldn't take any of Josh Hairston's minutes and as I recall, you didn't see him getting any more run than the two minutes he was getting at the time, until next year.

How hard is it to understand these are T*E*E*N*A*G*E*R*S? They are not 28-year-old finished products. What a sophomore coming off injury is playing like and ready for in December can be a whole world different in February. I mean, for chrissake, do you think this is Madden or NBA Live, where the player plays a season with a numerical score? He's an 82 and will play at 82-level for the year? No. It does not work that way. K did exactly what you want a coaching staff to do. He played his dependable-yet-lower-ceiling veteran early in the year when the developing younger player was not yet ready for more minutes, and as the developing player improved his minutes increased and the veteran's decreased. Everyone did their job! Despite all your claims for months that not giving Marshall minutes would hold back his development and the team's development, we sit here now with a strong Marshall and a chance at a 1-seed. I think K has done a pretty fine job with his twin objectives to win games now and develop guys down the road.

If I had the powers of a god, one thing I would definitely do is make a pocket universe in which all the dumb ideas fans have about their team could be implemented. I would make ungrateful, short-sighted fans coach out whole seasons running their teams into the ground, losing all over the place, and getting shredded in the press. Then I would make videos of those failed seasons and put them on every jumbotron in the actual America of this reality. And, since I had the powers of a god, there would be a jumbotron on every third street corner in this reality. But we're not there yet, godpowers-wise, so I'm writing posts on the internet.

Atlanta Duke
02-25-2014, 01:35 PM
Wonderful column in Grantland today contrasting the conduct of Coach K and Coach Boeheim

Jim Boeheim Could Learn From the Coach K Way

“I’m not surprised to see Jim’s fire,” Mike Krzyzewski said of his counterpart. “That’s why he is one of the greatest coaches in any sport.”

That’s how you take the high road. It’s the only route in Krzyzewski’s GPS these days....

But what happens when the ship is sinking?

Well, Syracuse’s captain jumped overboard.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/hotsportstakes-jim-boeheim-could-learn-from-the-coach-k-way/

Des Esseintes
02-25-2014, 01:41 PM
Wonderful column in Grantland today contrasting the conduct of Coach K and Coach Boeheim

Jim Boeheim Could Learn From the Coach K Way

“I’m not surprised to see Jim’s fire,” Mike Krzyzewski said of his counterpart. “That’s why he is one of the greatest coaches in any sport.”

That’s how you take the high road. It’s the only route in Krzyzewski’s GPS these days....

But what happens when the ship is sinking?

Well, Syracuse’s captain jumped overboard.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/hotsportstakes-jim-boeheim-could-learn-from-the-coach-k-way/

You, uh, read the disclaimer at the top of this " wonderful" column, right?

Duvall
02-25-2014, 01:43 PM
You know that's a parody of terrible sportswriting written by an inveterate and not very bright Duke-hater, right?

Des Esseintes
02-25-2014, 01:51 PM
You know that's a parody of terrible sportswriting written by an inveterate and not very bright Duke-hater, right?

Sharp is deeply stupid. Grantland is a good site, but its weaker writers all suffer from the same repellent conviction that they are much cleverer and more adorable than they are. A fault that can be laid *directly* at the feet of its founder.

Atlanta Duke
02-25-2014, 02:00 PM
You, uh, read the disclaimer at the top of this " wonderful" column, right?


You know that's a parody of terrible sportswriting written by an inveterate and not very bright Duke-hater, right?

Ooops - my bad - need to have my Duke hate radar tuned up and start reading the italics above the column

Or perhaps take a remedial reading comprehension class:(

killerleft
02-25-2014, 02:15 PM
What's funny about this is so many people who said he wouldn't be of any use are scrambling for anything to justify their mistaken belief. Spin it however you like, there were a number of us who saw something in Marshall that the team drastically needed and who had faith in the kid.

Good on you guys. I think everyone has had high hopes for Marshall. Early this year he simply didn't look like a player set to take anyone's minutes, plain and simple. Which has been echoed by Coach K, wihich is no surprise, since he's the guy who would know, and the guy who has 'held him back'.;) Here's to him getting a few MORE minutes, if he's in good enough shape!

hudlow
02-25-2014, 03:01 PM
I think The Crazies made him do it.....

hud

greybeard
02-25-2014, 03:04 PM
There is a tremendous amount of scientific research out there that points to what most would regard as counterintuitive dynamics that produce long term learning, particularly with regard to learning how to use and organize ourselves in movement in internal and external environments that are in constant flux. It is not the case, for example, that learning will be enhanced by teaching to task, that is, by rewarding good outcomes and punishing bad ones. I will repeat that, NOT. In fact, the issue of reward/punishment aside, corrective interventions need to be kept to a bare minimum, and I do mean bare, and the manner and nature of what is said and how, are so misused as to keep many potential learners locked steadfastly in place. It is also not the case that narrow focus on one aspect of performance will likely produce improvement; to the contrary, a broad gaze and introducing randomness into an environment of playing with different modes of performing the same and different tasks is much more generative of improvement, the type of improvement that one owns, one that does not need endless coaching sessions and/or mind-numbing rote repetitions (if your attention/awareness is not drawn to what you are doing, what is the chance that your mind will be able to discern what works better for YOU, not what is the best way to shoot a free throw, but what is the best way for YOU to shoot a free throw). There are a number of other perhaps more startling misconceptions that infuse teaching environments that predominant in the world of sports that impede progress by all of us.

Perhaps we are asking the wrong question when we wonder whether players learn best during practice, games, or dare I say it (heck I already have), imaging. They all have their strengths. Perhaps better asked is what does science tell us about how the brain and nervous system work, about what comprises good learning environments for different types of information/skill/understanding acquisition that is being ignored that could prevent outcomes nobody wants: that is, performers getting stuck. Stated more plainly, how can we help ourselves or our kids become better learner/players at the games that we chose to play.

Master PGA Teaching Professional Michael Hebron (24 such masters in the World), for years has broken with convention when it comes to teaching golfers through "how to" directions, and has spent the last 25 years in self discovery with regard to what science has to offer about how the brain, nervous system, and external inputs best create learning, and thus how coaching can best improve learning and performance, which in real world terms are the same thing with regard to self organization and use. What is so striking is that Michael's research in no sense was an academic exercise because he was constantly putting these scientific inputs (his growing understanding of them) into play in his teaching, lecturing, writing, dialoguing, which in turn provided a new base point for understanding the next article, lecture, seminar, which then found its way into his next short-game clinic. Learner/teacher/scientist, rolling over into themselves.

The challenges presented by trying to put words that cohere around such matters are stunning. Despite my best advice, expect a book next 6-12 months. In the meantime, you can check out his website, http://michaelhebron.com/, or catch some of short tidbits on YouTube.

lotusland
02-25-2014, 03:16 PM
It used to get me riled up when other fan bases would talk about how hard it is to beat Duke because it is 8 (w/ the refs) versus 5 and Duke gets all the calls. But now that i have matured beyond my years, I revel in their defeatist attitude. For that is loser talk. They are saying how stacked the odds are against them. How unfair playing Duke is. How they are going to lose. They are building Duke up into a team that is going to win. They are giving Duke an edge before the game starts. I'll take it.


Never argue with someone, especially a UNC fan, who claims Duke gets favorable treatment from the officials, announcers, NCAA, etc. because you can never convince them. It is so much more satisfying to say "of course they do, they're Duke. Maybe if your team had real student athletes and did things the right way they could get the same treatment but nah, probably not."

79-77
02-25-2014, 03:17 PM
One important element about this game that I haven't seen anyone discussing was the number of females in the student section wearing sports bras/halter tops.

Although as a 1989 alum and an appreciator of the days when everyone stayed for 3 or 4 years I tend to favor the good old days, I hold this development in fan fashion in high regard.

That is all.

Indoor66
02-25-2014, 03:18 PM
Never argue with someone, especially a UNC fan, who claims Duke gets favorable treatment from the officials, announcers, NCAA, etc. because you can never convince them. It is so much more satisfying to say "of course they do, they're Duke. Maybe if your team had real student athletes and did things the right way they could get the same treatment but nah, probably not."

I like it, I like it!!!!!!!! :cool:

OldPhiKap
02-25-2014, 03:18 PM
One important element about this game that I haven't seen anyone discussing was the number of females in the student section wearing sports bras/halter tops.

Although as a 1989 alum and an appreciator of the days when everyone stayed for 3 or 4 years I tend to favor the good old days, I hold this development in fan fashion in high regard.

That is all.

MUCH better than Speedo Guy

billy
02-25-2014, 08:05 PM
There is a tremendous amount of scientific research out there that points to what most would regard as counterintuitive dynamics that produce long term learning, particularly with regard to learning how to use and organize ourselves in movement in internal and external environments that are in constant flux. It is not the case, for example, that learning will be enhanced by teaching to task, that is, by rewarding good outcomes and punishing bad ones. I will repeat that, NOT. In fact, the issue of reward/punishment aside, corrective interventions need to be kept to a bare minimum, and I do mean bare, and the manner and nature of what is said and how, are so misused as to keep many potential learners locked steadfastly in place. It is also not the case that narrow focus on one aspect of performance will likely produce improvement; to the contrary, a broad gaze and introducing randomness into an environment of playing with different modes of performing the same and different tasks is much more generative of improvement, the type of improvement that one owns, one that does not need endless coaching sessions and/or mind-numbing rote repetitions (if your attention/awareness is not drawn to what you are doing, what is the chance that your mind will be able to discern what works better for YOU, not what is the best way to shoot a free throw, but what is the best way for YOU to shoot a free throw). There are a number of other perhaps more startling misconceptions that infuse teaching environments that predominant in the world of sports that impede progress by all of us.


Yoda, is that you?

Acymetric
02-25-2014, 10:10 PM
One important element about this game that I haven't seen anyone discussing was the number of females in the student section wearing sports bras/halter tops.

Although as a 1989 alum and an appreciator of the days when everyone stayed for 3 or 4 years I tend to favor the good old days, I hold this development in fan fashion in high regard.

That is all.

Did the girl with the painted on bra a few years back make it on tv? Definitely got spotlighted on the video board at the game!

greybeard
02-26-2014, 12:49 AM
Yoda, is that you?

Nope. A very poor approximation of the thinking of my good friend Michael Hebron. If you would like to voir dire the witness, I think you will be more than satisfied (My Cousin Vinnie)"

Decades ago Michael Hebron played a key role in orchestrating the first
PGA Teaching and Coaching Seminar, bringing together instructors from
across the country to share ideas on teaching methods. Following that
event, Michael gained the nickname of "the teacher's teacher".

Highly respected throughout the international golf community, Michael
consults on golf instruction to PGA Switzerland, Italy, France, Finland,
Canada, Japan and Sweden. He has given instruction clinics at 30 PGA of
America sections. Through his dedication Michael earned the honored
status of becoming the 24th PGA of America Master Professional.

His book, See and Feel the Inside Move the Outside, was the first golf
instruction book accepted as a PGA Master’s thesis. Since then, he has
written hundreds of articles for leading golf magazines and authored 4
other books and 3 DVDs.

Michael has appeared on The Charley Rose Show, Today Show, The
Golf Channel and numerous local cable shows.

Over the years, Hebron has worked with many successful golfers from the
PGA and LPGA tours and several national champions in America and abroad
including three time men's major winners. He has also worked with many
successful high school and college golfers—but Michael’s pride is working
with club golfers

In a more resume-like form, Here's Mikie:

NATIONAL AWARDS
PGA of America Teacher of the Year 1991
Golf Magazine Top 50 Instructors List 1991–present
National PGA Horton Smith Trophy Recipient 1990
Top 15 Golf Digest’s Teacher’s Choice List 1998–present
(elected by peers)
Lindy Award (Junior Golf) 1973

INTERNATIONAL HONORS
Created and Coordinated:
1990 — 1st European PGA Teaching Conference
1989 — 1st Canadian PGA Teaching Conference
1988 — 1st PGA of America Teaching and Coaching Summit
Consulting Instructor — Swiss PGA, French PGA, Italian PGA,
Swedish PGA, Finland PGA
MET PGA DIVISION AWARDS
MET PGA Horton Smith Award 1990, 1989, 1981
MET PGA Professional of the Year 1982
MET PGA Teacher of the Year 1991, 1987
MET PGA Honor Roll 1973

AUTHOR
• Golf Swing Secrets…and Lies: Six Timeless Lessons (book)
• Blueprints for Building Your Golf Swing video (rated 4 stars of 5-star
excellence by Golf Magazine)
• Blueprints for Parents & Children Learning Golf (DVD)
• See and Feel the Inside Move the Outside (book)
The Art and Zen of Learning Golf (book)
• Building and Improving Golf Mind, Golf Body Golf Swing (book and video)
• NGF’s Instructor’s Guide and Coach’s Guide
• Contributor to PGA Teaching Manual, PGA Tournament Manual, and
First Swing publications
• Instruction Editor—MET Golfer Magazine and Executive Golfer
• Articles written by and about Michael by leading golf publications: Golf
Illustrated, Golf Magazine, PGA Magazine, MET Golfer, Executive Golfer,
NY Times, USA Today.
• Aired on The Charley Rose Show, The Today Show, Good Morning Japan, The Golf
Channel’s Academy Live show, first golf instructor to host an America Online Auditiorium
Session.

PROFESSIONAL LEADERSHIP
President —Michael Hebron School for Golf TM Long Island and
Golf Learning, Inc.
Director — Smithtown Landing Country Club
Head Instructor — PGA Teaching Workshops
Head Instructor — PGA Academy of Golf
Board of Governors — MET PGA (8 years)
Vice President — MET PGA (5 years)
Member — National PGA of America Education Committee
Member — National PGA of America Teaching and the Growth
of the Game Committee in addition to several other
PGA of America Committees
Member — Two National PGA Blue Ribbon Committees
Board of Directors — Long Island Golfer Magazine

I should add that Michael is a didactic learner, is as current on cutting edge science bearing on how people learn (what factors enhance and detract from learning environments and why) as any non-scientist you'd likely find, and if there is a more authentic, well grounded, and better equipped individual in the world of sports instruction and coaching, I would oh so be surprised.

Finally, for a kicker, Michael knows Ball. He played at UNC Charlotte in the late 50's-early 60s, his kid brother was Cremins's lead assistant at GT, and I'll let you know if he has a shot when we spend a few days seeing if he can find me a swing.

This is not, fluff, this is the best that science has to offer that has been put in play by as talented, committed, nuanced, authentic, and brilliant movement educator, master of the art of learning and teaching how to learn as pertains to the world of movement as I have encountered, and I have met my share of very high end educators. Big time sports can go where they will. It is time that the rest of us have a shot at learning to play the games we want with a well earned optimism and vitality that a brain oriented approach to improvement will provide. We just need to stop letting arcane concepts about what it takes to improve and who is in charge of it in our way. We need to bring play full circle with the help of modern science and the guidance of a man who I think is uniquely equipped to provide it. Uniquely equipped or not, I thought you might benefit to know of a resource that you might find of value, or at least of interest.


Michael Hebron, not me. Me, I'm along for the ride, happily.