PDA

View Full Version : MBB: Duke 68, Georgia Tech 51 Post-Game Thread



JBDuke
02-18-2014, 10:05 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

CLW
02-18-2014, 10:06 PM
Put this one away early. 2nd half shots didn't fall and some concern about poor free throw shooting but the team played really hard and pretty well on D tonight. A very low possession game tonight as well (welcome to the new ACC)

GGLC
02-18-2014, 10:07 PM
Jabari played really well. I'd like to see Tyler take some of those open layups. I could not love Amile's offensive creativity more.

gocanes0506
02-18-2014, 10:09 PM
well didn't see the blue team as much I would have liked but, a lot of time in the 2nd half was methodical and not much effort was put out. At least not much energy was put out by the starters and no injuries witnessed (ankle turns or anything).

Onward to UNX.

Billy Dat
02-18-2014, 10:16 PM
We looked awesome on both ends the first half. Our defense was good all game, but the second half, from all perspectives, was one of the most boring I can remember. We went through a drought, Tech was equally inept, and we started aggressively killing clock with 6 minutes to go, and Tech really did nothing to try and prevent us from doing so. We stunk it up from the line, especially in the second half. It was as forgettable an ACC road win as you will see.

But, we went on the road, took control immediately and never looked back. Aside from a few lazy sequences in the second half, we were focused and ready. It is hard to understand why Todd Z and company weren't playing the final few minutes, but that's K. They said the ACC head of officials was in the house which might explain the return to calling hand check fouls 30 feet from the basket - all game. Josh Hairston was whistled the minute he started taking off his warm-ups, I think he had 3 fouls in the scorebook during the National Anthem.

2-0 during this 8 day grind. Bring on the Heels.

Troublemaker
02-18-2014, 10:16 PM
Jabari 2.0 still having his way.

Very good defense.

A cookie for me for predicting the return of line changes when 3 games in 5 days was announced.

Stallball.

Go To Hell Carolina.

I got nothing else.

hurleyfor3
02-18-2014, 10:18 PM
Go To Hell Carolina.

I got nothing else.

What else is there?

Saratoga2
02-18-2014, 10:18 PM
In general a good game coming into UNC, I didn't get the PT figures, but the starters got good time along with Quinn and Andre. All those did well. Matt appears to be trusted. The questionable area was Josh vs Marshall and Semi. Don't know the rationale and who is hurt, etc. but I am sure coach K has his reasons. Hope Jabari will get enough rest to play two more tough games coming up.

Newton_14
02-18-2014, 10:19 PM
More tomorrow as I am hitting the sack but...

1. I love this team and the quality depth. So many weapons!
2. Tonight we saw vintage, old school Duke Defense that I grew up watching in the K area. Tech struggled to even get into a set or run a simple play all game long. That was a joy to watch! Likely the best defense we have seen from this team all year long. Beautiful!

More later! Two down, 2 to go to make this tough week a 4-0 stretch. One game at a time though. Next goal? Beat the low character cheaters at their place Thursday!

Go Duke!!

KandG
02-18-2014, 10:21 PM
Hideous second half on offense for Duke, bad FT shooting, poor flow on offense, everything. Fortunately, the defense was more than good enough and the team had built up a good lead in the first to withstand any runs. The second half was so ugly that I turned the sound off on the game with about 11 minutes left and watched the 4th quarter of Heat-Mavericks in the background after Lebron entered the game. That looked more like basketball.

Duke can play as ugly as it wants and miss boatloads of free throws again on Thursday as long as they can come away with a win in Chapel Hill. I won't be bothered with style points nor turn the sound off on that game. Looking forward to it…GTHC!

Duvall
02-18-2014, 10:26 PM
But, we went on the road, took control immediately and never looked back. Aside from a few lazy sequences in the second half, we were focused and ready. It is hard to understand why Todd Z and company weren't playing the final few minutes, but that's K. They said the ACC head of officials was in the house which might explain the return to calling hand check fouls 30 feet from the basket - all game. Josh Hairston was whistled the minute he started taking off his warm-ups, I think he had 3 fouls in the scorebook during the National Anthem.

A shame the NCAA hasn't made kneeing a shooter to the ground a point of emphasis, then.

Billy Dat
02-18-2014, 10:30 PM
A shame the NCAA hasn't made kneeing a shooter to the ground a point of emphasis, then.

Are you referring specifically to the second half drive where Miller bodied Rasheed into the hardwood? Yeah, that was weak. Miller sure got a lot of props from Brando who was calling him "one of those really good players that no one in the country knows about". Really? He's OK. He's got potential, but so do a ton of other people...

g-money
02-18-2014, 10:33 PM
A solid effort by our squad, particularly on the defensive end, and on the offensive end during the first half.

A minor quibble: Rodney's shot selection. On the plus side, he hit a bunch of threes within the flow of the offense which was great. On the minus side, he forced up a lot of bad shots from two point range to the tune of 1-10 shooting. I'd like to see him work harder to get good shots (for himself or his teammates) as opposed to taking 18' contested jumpers.

Agree with Billy and others regarding Jabari's improvement as a defender and rebounder. On offense, he, also, has benefited by cutting down on the contested jumpers.

While I'm on a roll regarding the 18 foot shot: We have so many good three point shooters that I feel like Coach K should ban any shots from 15' to 21'. (Except Hairston. I realize I'm in the minority, but I actually like it when he shoots them. :))

We're going to have to bring our A game to beat Carolina on Thursday. It pains me to admit that their motley crew is playing well right now. Let's bring it!!!

BlueDevilBrowns
02-18-2014, 10:37 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

This game reminded me of a typical NBA game when it's the first night of a "back-to-back":

Low energy 2nd half with a workman-like performance to finish off an inferior opponent while having an eye toward the next game.

Our defense looked sharp and active while GTech did their best to make the game as ugly as possible.

TT, Parker, and Hood stood out to me.

But I get the funny feeling Dawkins is going to go off Thursday as he's been just a little too quiet lately.

Duke76
02-18-2014, 10:40 PM
A shame the NCAA hasn't made kneeing a shooter to the ground a point of emphasis, then.


first off, beautiful redo of the ga. tech stadium, very intimate, shooters had to really like the lighting and the backdrop colors around the goals etc.
just thought it was a great place to play and also watch a game…certainly not better than Cameron but pretty cool nonetheless.

Boys were on fire 1st half….really running this weave offense a number of times that looked good and produced buckets..but second half was horrendous, way too much dribbling around…i just really hate that kinda offense and Rodney and Quinn are the worst offenders…Maybe K wants that but I don't think so. Parker and Hood both miss shots when they shoot it too flat

Imo not a good tune up for the Knuckleheads from Chapel Hell but gotta believe it will be a much more fluid game. K seemed to be really instructing from the sidelines on offense as if the guys didn't know how to run the plays in the second half or they were trying new plays out. definitely gotta play two more even halts of basketball…maybe we just lost interest. Anyway it was a treat for the family and oh by the way that was the worst Tech team I have seen in 30 plus years of living in Atlanta.

CameronDuke
02-18-2014, 10:47 PM
The McCamish Pavilion is impressive. It reminds me of a smaller JPJ where UVa plays. Tyler had two great pick pockets in the backcourt where he came from behind a dribbler and stole the ball. He even dove after a loose ball after a steal and tipped it to JP to keep it in bounds. He hit two 3s at the end from the corner that sealed the game. How pretty was that up and under move Amile put on Miller in the first half? We obviously need to shoot free throws better but that can be fixed. Very good turnout from Duke fans too.

Troublemaker
02-18-2014, 10:48 PM
Oh, I did have one more thing. Tyler with one of his patented 6/5/3/2/3 games. Other players can have their double-doubles. Tyler is perfectly happy with an impactful quintuple-low-single-in-which-one-category-is-fouls performance.

NYBri
02-18-2014, 10:50 PM
Beat Maryland - check
Beat Tech - check
Next game - the Cheaters
Everything else - noise to be ignored

NashvilleDevil
02-18-2014, 10:52 PM
No one got hurt. When Ga Tech had chances in the 2nd half to get the lead to 9-10, Duke shut them down. On to Thursday.

Duke76
02-18-2014, 10:55 PM
The McCamish Pavilion is impressive. It reminds me of a smaller JPJ where UVa plays. Tyler had two great pick pockets in the backcourt where he came from behind a dribbler and stole the ball. He even dove after a loose ball after a steal and tipped it to JP to keep it in bounds. He hit two 3s at the end from the corner that sealed the game. How pretty was that up and under move Amile put on Miller in the first half? We obviously need to shoot free throws better but that can be fixed. Very good turnout from Duke fans too.

Be interesting to see if this weave offensive play keeps getting traction…..sure do wish Rasheed would learn the floater like Nolan…I just think he takes it in too far many too times against centers and gets stuffed often…he does get fouled a lot..just not pretty ball…really think the flow of the UNC game will be much faster and more fluid and not so physical.

PSurprise
02-18-2014, 11:01 PM
Two minor things...it was nice hearing G-man instead of Vitale's drivel.
It seems that K is reluctant to use the line shift in the second half. I would like to see him play those guys a little during the last period, maybe just for a short time to give the starters a bit of a breather in the half. If they really stink it up, maybe burn a TO or get the others back in the game with a foul.

gcashwell
02-18-2014, 11:08 PM
Very pleased with the first half performance.

Very displeased with Marshall's minutes. I feel he is very important to this team.

SoCalDukeFan
02-18-2014, 11:16 PM
nice hearing G-man instead of Vitale's drivel.

Could not agree more.

Watched on ESPN 3 and thought the commentary was great. I am getting very tired of Dickie V and Doris Burke who just talk too much.
Burke at least is on topic.

Nice win.

Beat the Heels.

SoCal

Zeb
02-18-2014, 11:31 PM
Very displeased with Marshall's minutes. I feel he is very important to this team.

I would like to see more Marshall too, but his play didn't help that case tonight, as he posted an 8 trillion.

NashvilleDevil
02-18-2014, 11:43 PM
Very pleased with the first half performance.

Very displeased with Marshall's minutes. I feel he is very important to this team.

Marshall wasn't needed tonight. I think there are about 5-6 players more important to this team than Marshall is.

timmy c
02-19-2014, 12:01 AM
Could not agree more.

Watched on ESPN 3 and thought the commentary was great. I am getting very tired of Dickie V and Doris Burke who just talk too much.
Burke at least is on topic.

Nice win.

Beat the Heels.

SoCal

I did not get to see the game, but was hoping to catch a replay on espn3. Unfortunately, it's not listed. I have watched other duke games in the past. Anyone have any ideas why I can't view this one?

BlueDster
02-19-2014, 12:15 AM
I did not get to see the game, but was hoping to catch a replay on espn3. Unfortunately, it's not listed. I have watched other duke games in the past. Anyone have any ideas why I can't view this one?

I live in Atlanta and the game was blacked out on espn3 for me as Raycom had bought out local coverage. My guess is that depending on where you live another provider is blocking your access.

As for the game, I felt like others that the first half was perhaps the best defense we've played this year, and the second half was just boring. I'm wondering where this Quinn Cook situation is headed. To me he seems to take worse shots when he isn't playing well in an attempt to get himself going. Not sure if this helps or hurts the situation, but he certainly is in some sort of funk.

DukeDevil
02-19-2014, 12:20 AM
I did not get to see the game, but was hoping to catch a replay on espn3. Unfortunately, it's not listed. I have watched other duke games in the past. Anyone have any ideas why I can't view this one?

If I'm not mistaken, it takes a bit to get posted, usually 12 hours or so? That was the case the last time I tried to watch a game on watchespn after the fact

DukeGrad
02-19-2014, 12:25 AM
You're right, but it's usually not quite that long. I've watched quite a few ESPN3 replays this year and it seems to take between 30-60 minutes before they're posted.

Kedsy
02-19-2014, 12:50 AM
Very displeased with Marshall's minutes. I feel he is very important to this team.

Marshall played 8 minutes. His average in ACC play is 8.4 minutes, so about the same. Why were you so displeased?

Edouble
02-19-2014, 12:56 AM
You're right, but it's usually not quite that long. I've watched quite a few ESPN3 replays this year and it seems to take between 30-60 minutes before they're posted.

I live in Atlanta and it was not blacked out for me. I watched the first half on WatchESPN and then had to leave the house for a bit (long story, someone needed a ride). I got home and waited and waited for the game to be posted to the replay section. I finally gave up and came over to DBR to hear about the second half.

I feel your pain.

DukeDevil
02-19-2014, 01:13 AM
I live in Atlanta and it was not blacked out for me. I watched the first half on WatchESPN and then had to leave the house for a bit (long story, someone needed a ride). I got home and waited and waited for the game to be posted to the replay section. I finally gave up and came over to DBR to hear about the second half.

I feel your pain.

I can help you a bit...here's the 2nd half of the 2nd half.
http://www.theacc.com/#!/GameCenter/52685b9be4b0f86829b3c7f9

Not sure why the whole game won't replay but...whelp..there it is.

DukeAlumBS
02-19-2014, 02:12 AM
It is posted already at BDN ( Blue Devil Network) at Go Duke FUI

Nice day
Jimmy

Bob Green
02-19-2014, 04:13 AM
It seems that K is reluctant to use the line shift in the second half. I would like to see him play those guys a little during the last period, maybe just for a short time to give the starters a bit of a breather in the half.

The 2nd five have to increase their productivity for this to happen. Checkout a couple of stat lines from the "Blue" Players:

8 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
5 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 4 0

Stat lines like that are not going to earn a player 2nd half minutes.

kAzE
02-19-2014, 05:16 AM
Really solid blue collar-type win for us in this game. The team played a very solid game, and guys did their jobs.

Positives:

- The best takeaway from this one I thought was how good our perimeter defense was. This is the best perimeter D we've played the whole year, and we did it for the most part without fouling. Mike G pointed out a few times how far away from the basket GT was being forced to operate from to begin possessions, and they were just having a rough go of it for almost the entire night trying to do anything offensively. We held Miller to 2 points, and because of how aggressive we were on the perimeter, they never got to exploit their size advantage down low.

- We've been good taking care of the ball most of the year, but just 5 turnovers in this contest. That's superb, that's the type of steady ball handling that wins championships.

- It was good to see the return of the line changes. And unlike others in this thread, I agree with how Coach K opted to use it mostly early, and then went back to a 7-8 man rotation late. I think this strategy allows us to play the best defense that we are capable of playing. It keeps everyone fresh, and allows guys to go all out on both ends of the floor. Nice to see Dawkins have a good shooting day, we need him to keep this going through the rest of the week. He seems to do well when we go to the line changes. Even though our offense stalled a bit in the 2nd half, I don't blame the shortening of the rotation. Much of it was due us going to stall ball absurdly early in the 2nd half, but some of it was just bad ball movement, and not getting good shots. I'm very happy with the minute distribution and I think the coaches are doing the right thing to get the most out of the team.

- I think this starting lineup works, and I think it's the one we need to stick with. Thornton is just playing way better ball than Cook right now, and despite his physical limitations, is much more versatile overall than Cook. His intangibles alone merit him playing 20+ minutes a game, but then he also brings solid passing ability, accurate long distance shooting, outstanding hustle and defense, and is the calm, vocal leader that this team needs on the floor. He and Sulaimon are a good back court, and with those two, I believe we have the size and defensive ability to match up with just about any other back court that we will see. Sulaimon brings the dynamic offensive package that we would get from Cook at his best, so there's really no reason to bring Cook back into the starting lineup right now. Let's see if Cook can step into this role and thrive as the play maker for the 2nd unit, he was very good in this game in his 20 minutes.

Negatives (I'm nitpicking here, it was a very solid win in many respects, so just some small room for improvement type stuff):

- I thought we could have fed Jabari on offense a little bit more, especially in the 2nd half. He had 12 shot attempts on the night, but 3 of those came on offensive rebounds. GT had no answer for him at all. Every time he decided he was going in the paint, it was going to be points for us, whether it was a bucket or a trip to the foul stripe. Our guys need to recognize matchups a little more on offense and get the ball to guys who have the hot hand. Jabari could have scored 25 easily in the game we had run 4 or 5 more plays through him.

- We got outrebounded in this one, which is a very different result from the last time we played this team. They had the size advantage, but it would nice to get after it a bit more on the defensive glass.

- Free throw shooting was pretty questionable. We shot it amazingly well against Maryland, and we were lucky, because if we shot it like we did this game, we probably would have lost. It's no big deal, though. Jefferson seems to save his best for the big games, and we know Parker and Cook are usually pretty good shooting free throws.

Overall, I loved the way we played this one. I thought our defense in the 2nd half of the Maryland game outside of the last 3 minutes was atrocious, so I'm very happy to see that this was an area of focus for this game. Our offense still isn't back to the historically great levels it was earlier, but if he can consistently play this level of defense, we will be just fine. Go Duke!

roywhite
02-19-2014, 05:49 AM
I live in Atlanta and it was not blacked out for me. I watched the first half on WatchESPN and then had to leave the house for a bit (long story, someone needed a ride). I got home and waited and waited for the game to be posted to the replay section. I finally gave up and came over to DBR to hear about the second half.

I feel your pain.

Don't feel too upset if you caught the first half and then missed the second half; you definitely saw the better half.

Ima Facultiwyfe
02-19-2014, 07:29 AM
The second picture in a row on the front page of "Duke getting all the calls." So they're calling hand checks now? hmmmmm?
Love, Ima

tbyers11
02-19-2014, 08:35 AM
Two minor things...it was nice hearing G-man instead of Vitale's drivel.
It seems that K is reluctant to use the line shift in the second half. I would like to see him play those guys a little during the last period, maybe just for a short time to give the starters a bit of a breather in the half. If they really stink it up, maybe burn a TO or get the others back in the game with a foul.

I think the scenario that you describe with the 5 man line shift is exactly what happened in the 2nd half last night. Quinn, MP3, Matt, Josh and Andre came in at 15:29 after the media TO. They had 2 not-so-great offensive possessions (Matt missing a contested drive after little ball movement, Dre shooting a contested 3 that led to an over-the-back rebounding foul on Josh) sandwiched around Dre getting beat on a drive by Bolden for a 3pt play where no help D was present. K yanked them for the starters after Josh's foul. They played 1:10 of game time. It was a quick hook, but fairly justified.

I would have liked to have seen full subs in the 2nd half right after the under 4 media timeout as the game was no longer in question instead of at the 1:17 mark. But this is a big nitpick on my part. I guess K wanted the "starters" to work on the delay game some more and I don't have a problem with that.

Overall, I think the minute distribution was fine. Only Hood (34) and Jabari (32) were over 30 minutes. I think Marshall (8), Matt (7) and Josh (5) are about the right amount. The only issue I have is Andre with only 10 minutes. However, I think any additional minutes for Andre basically would come from Tyler and this was a Tyler type game last night. We got out to a big lead and it was a physical slugfest in the 2nd half. Tyler made several big "hustle" plays and I thought played a very good game overall.

Steven43
02-19-2014, 08:40 AM
Marshall played 8 minutes. His average in ACC play is 8.4 minutes, so about the same. Why were you so displeased?

Kedsy, I can tell from your posts that you are a very knowledgable basketball fan. You are also really good at providing statistics to support many of your points. That being said, I have noticed quite a few instances this season where you have been less than complimentary towards the play of Marshall Plumlee. While I admit that his contribution has been spotty and there isn't a large body of work to draw upon, it seems that many posters on this site look for the positives in his play more than the negatives while you (and some others, to be fair) seem to be the other way around.

I know you are a huge supporter of our team and would love nothing more than to see Marshall reach his potential. I was just wondering if you could explain what is holding you back on looking for opportunities to praise Marshall and focus more on his positives than his negatives. Maybe I am just incorrect in my assessment of him as an athletic big man with potential to provide an intimidating inside presence on both ends if he were given more minutes. Just curious.

azzefkram
02-19-2014, 09:22 AM
The 2nd five have to increase their productivity for this to happen. Checkout a couple of stat lines from the "Blue" Players:

8 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
5 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 4 0

Stat lines like that are not going to earn a player 2nd half minutes.

Small sample size. It is hard to do something in a few possessions.

DFife90
02-19-2014, 09:25 AM
I got the chance to see my Blue Devils play live for the first time in a long while. This was also my first time in Tech's new McCamish Pavilion. I had been to the McThriller Dome a couple of times. The new arena is a big improvement and a great venue with no bad seats. But it almost seems like a scaled down NBA venue complete with the lighted advertising banner encircling the arena. There were a lot of Duke fans in the stands. It almost felt like I was at a tournament game with fans from both competing schools in the stands. In fact, at one point in the second half when Tech could have cut it it to 10 or 11, we started shouting "Let's Go Duke!" and it was loud. All the Duke fans joined. Not only did it seem to me the cheer went on long, I was surprised that the Tech fans couldn't drown us out. I guess just as the Tech team had kind of lost their will to fight, the fans had also lost their will to challenge the vocal Duke contingent. But I was thinking that something like that would not happen in Cameron. The Crazies would be sure to drown out the opposing fans. I was wondering what the team thought. It was a point in a game where they probably expected the crowd to give the home team a lift and instead the Duke players must have felt right at home.

I also thought it was funny that Tech uses a crowd wrangler. He runs around in front of the student section with a microphone to pump up the fans. At one point, he got the crowd to start cheering, "our house! our house!" Generally, that cheer should be reserved for a time when the home team has exerted its will on the visiting team, not after the visiting team has already come in cleaned out the refrigerator, spread out on the couch, commandeered the remote, rifled through the CD collection, offended the wife, fed table scraps to the dog and propped their muddy feet on the coffee table.

I have to say Tech fans were good hosts. I was decked in Duke gear (2001 National Championship Shirt) but experienced no Duke hatred. It was almost like pre-Laettner days when we Duke fans didn't have to worry about Duke hating outside of Chapel Hill. Tech has a great venue and they've had some great players in the past. I hope they can re-gain that swagger. I remember being in Cameron when Dennis Scott came to town and would sink half court shots during warm ups.

kAzE
02-19-2014, 09:30 AM
Kedsy, I can tell from your posts that you are a very knowledgable basketball fan. You are also really good at providing statistics to support many of your points. That being said, I have noticed quite a few instances this season where you have been less than complimentary towards the play of Marshall Plumlee. While I admit that his contribution has been spotty and there isn't a large body of work to draw upon, it seems that many posters on this site look for the positives in his play more than the negatives while you (and some others, to be fair) seem to be the other way around.

I know you are a huge supporter of our team and would love nothing more than to see Marshall reach his potential. I was just wondering if you could explain what is holding you back on looking for opportunities to praise Marshall and focus more on his positives than his negatives. Maybe I am just incorrect in my assessment of him as an athletic big man with potential to provide an intimidating inside presence on both ends if he were given more minutes. Just curious.

I don't ever recall Kedsy saying anything really negative about Plumlee other than the truth. Despite his size, he's not a very good defensive rebounder. It's not an opinion, it's just fact. He does a few things very well. He's one of the best pick and roll defenders on the team, and one of the best offensive rebounders. He's just okay when it comes to interior defense. He's big, which helps, but he's not very quick (which hurts his help defense ability) and he still reaches too much and picks up a lot of fouls. He's also a non factor on offense outside of his offensive rebounding.

He could play more minutes, but he's not as good as our starting big men on either end of the floor. Jabari is probably not as good defensively as Plumlee, but more than makes up for it by being one of the best offensive players in the country. Amile "The Dream" Jefferson is significantly better on both ends, despite a size disadvantage. So Plumlee gets the back up minutes, and in most games, that's not going to be very many minutes, because those guys are so good. I imagine next year will be very similar, backing up Okafor and Jefferson. Plumlee probably won't see 20+ minutes per game until his senior year, but it's not because he's a bad player, it's because our other big men are just better.

For comparison, Brian Zoubek NEVER played more than 20 minutes per game in his career for an entire season. (he played 18.7 mpg his senior year) I think MP3 will have a very Zoubek-esque career. He'll be a solid backup for 3 years, and should be a very good player by his senior year. One of these days, a light bulb will go off for him and he's going to make a jump. (probably once he develops better hands and figures out how to catch the ball) And despite being a career back up, I STILL think he makes a roster in the NBA. Guys with that size and athleticism will always have a place on some NBA team. He has the potential to be a monster rebounding machine some day. But sadly, that day is not today, and probably not this year.

Duke's bench will always have this problem because of the amount of talent on the team. When a guy as talented as Alex Murphy can't get on the floor in 3 years, we must have a lot of really good players.

vick
02-19-2014, 09:40 AM
Small sample size. It is hard to do something in a few possessions.

This is true, but we can look at the whole season too, and the data aren't exactly screaming that Plumlee's a great player right now. Offensively he's only fractionally better than even Josh (ORtg 109.5 vs. 108.7, and both are very low-usage players), and while he does block a healthy number of shots, he isn't great on the defensive glass. Just using the eye test, he's often out-of-position defensively. He's done nothing to show that he should be above the ninth man in the rotation, and ninth men aren't usually going to be logging heavy minutes in conference or tournament games unless someone's in foul trouble, hurt, or there is a very specific matchup advantage.

jv001
02-19-2014, 09:42 AM
I don't ever recall Kedsy saying anything really negative about Plumlee other than the truth. Despite his size, he's not a very good defensive rebounder. It's not an opinion, it's just fact. He does a few things very well. He's one of the best pick and roll defenders on the team, and one of the best offensive rebounders. He's just okay when it comes to interior defense. He's big, which helps, but he's not very quick (which hurts his help defense ability) and he still reaches too much and picks up a lot of fouls. He's also a non factor on offense outside of his offensive rebounding.

He could play more minutes, but he's not as good as our starting big men on either end of the floor. Jabari is probably not as good defensively as Plumlee, but more than makes up for it by being one of the best offensive players in the country. Amile "The Dream" Jefferson is significantly better on both ends, despite a size disadvantage. So Plumlee gets the back up minutes, and in most games, that's not going to be very many minutes, because those guys are so good. I imagine next year will be very similar, backing up Okafor and Jefferson. Plumlee probably won't see 20+ minutes per game until his senior year, but it's not because he's a bad player, it's because our other big men are just better. For comparison, Brian Zoubek NEVER played more than 20 minutes per game in his career for an entire season. (he played 18.7 mpg his senior year) I think MP3 will have a very Zoubek-esque career. He'll be a solid backup for 3 years, and should be a very good player by his senior year. (Start working on that beard, kid)

Duke's bench will always have this problem because of the amount of talent on the team. When a guy as talented as Alex Murphy can't get on the floor in 3 years, we must have a lot of really good players.

First let me say, I'm a big MPIII fan, but I agree with almost everything you posted. The only quibble is I think Jabari is a much better defender than Marshall because of one thing you touched on. Marshall is not a good defensive rebounder and that is part of defense. Offense doesn't start until you get the ball and head the other way. Marshall is a good offensive rebounder but certainly has room for improvement in defensive rebounding. As for MPIII minutes, I'd like to see them between 10-12 minutes this year. You probably have a good read on the 2015 season if Okafor is as good as billed. GoDuke!

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-19-2014, 09:46 AM
I don't ever recall Kedsy saying anything really negative about Plumlee other than the truth. Despite his size, he's not a very good defensive rebounder. It's not an opinion, it's just fact. He does a few things very well. He's one of the best pick and roll defenders on the team, and one of the best offensive rebounders. He's just okay when it comes to interior defense. He's big, which helps, but he's not very quick (which hurts his help defense ability) and he still reaches too much and picks up a lot of fouls. He's also a non factor on offense outside of his offensive rebounding.

He could play more minutes, but he's not as good as our starting big men on either end of the floor. Jabari is probably not as good defensively as Plumlee, but more than makes up for it by being one of the best offensive players in the country. Amile "The Dream" Jefferson is significantly better on both ends, despite a size disadvantage. So Plumlee gets the back up minutes, and in most games, that's not going to be very many minutes, because those guys are so good. I imagine next year will be very similar, backing up Okafor and Jefferson. Plumlee probably won't see 20+ minutes per game until his senior year, but it's not because he's a bad player, it's because our other big men are just better. For comparison, Brian Zoubek NEVER played more than 20 minutes per game in his career for an entire season. (he played 18.7 mpg his senior year) I think MP3 will have a very Zoubek-esque career. He'll be a solid backup for 3 years, and should be a very good player by his senior year. (Start working on that beard, kid)

Duke's bench will always have this problem because of the amount of talent on the team. When a guy as talented as Alex Murphy can't get on the floor in 3 years, we must have a lot of really good players.

I am getting serious Marshall fatigue on this board. If he doesn't play, then Coach K is intentionally holding him back and he deserves more minutes. If he plays and does great, it's clear evidence that he should get more minutes. If he plays and doesn't do well, then clearly he needs more minutes to get more comfortable.

I for one will reference Occam's Razor (I know it's a favorite on this board) and go to the simplest answer... Our coach, the winningest coach in history, knows his team the best, and Marshall is exactly what he seems to be at this point in his career. He's a big body that gets overexcited (much like his brothers early in their careers) and makes mistakes (defending near half-court, letting players blow by him while he waves his arms rather than moving his feet, fumbling passes). Certainly, I will root for him enthusiastically when he's in the game. I will be hoping for his development to continue into next year. I will not stomp my feet and demand more evidence of his excellence in defiance of the coach's evaluations.

He did not look very good last night. He frequently got caught flatfooted on defense. Right now, he serves to give other big guys rest, provide some physical defense and fouls, and take up space. In the Syracuse game, he was excellent at finding that sweet spot at the top of the key and rotating the offense to find open guys. Realistically though, Amile is MUCH better suited to that, because he also provides a scoring threat when he gets the ball - making it much more difficult for the zone to defend.

Perhaps Marshall will make the Zoubek Leap (patent pending) between now and the end of the season. No one would be happier than me - other than having to read the endless "see I told you so" messages on DBR. Realistically, I will hope that he continues to work on his focus and footwork in the off-season and is prepared to make a bigger impact in 2014-2015.

UrinalCake
02-19-2014, 09:58 AM
I think there's a prevailing notion that Duke HAS to have a guy 6'10" or bigger playing 20+ minutes, just because, and if we don't then we can't win a title. I personally agree with a previous poster that Jefferson is much more effective at the 5 spot than Marshall on both ends. Now some would argue that matchup-wise we're going to run into someone with some bulk (like Meeks, if fat counts as bulk) where Amile would get eaten alive (hopefully not literally) and that is a fair concern, but evidence doesn't suggest that MP3 would be any better at guarding the dough boy just because he has a couple inches and a few pounds more than Amile.

8-10 minutes per game, mostly in the first half, is just about right for him right now.

jv001
02-19-2014, 10:03 AM
I know a lot of discussion here on MPIII and his minutes, however I see other tweaks that might help Duke. The first is get the ball in the low post to Amile. He is an athletic player with surprising handle. He's not going to go up and post someone with a dunk, but he sure can use the rim for protection. The second is for our guards to get the ball to our big who set's a pick for them. There have been several times our guard has failed to make the pass to the big who has rolled to the basket. I know this is a tough pass, but we seldom see it made. The third is for Hood to work hard in practice on his mid-range jumper. He was making that shot earlier in the year, but it's lately. The last, I would like to see a few more minutes for Andre. I don't want all those minutes to come from Tyler has some have mentioned. I think he could get a few of Rodney's and a few from Rasheed and Jabari. If Marshall get's 8-12 minutes, then I would like to see Andre get around 15-18 minutes with some set plays called for him. But hey I'm just a Duke fan. Not a HOF coach. GoDuke!

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-19-2014, 10:06 AM
I think there's a prevailing notion that Duke HAS to have a guy 6'10" or bigger playing 20+ minutes, just because, and if we don't then we can't win a title. I personally agree with a previous poster that Jefferson is much more effective at the 5 spot than Marshall on both ends. Now some would argue that matchup-wise we're going to run into someone with some bulk (like Meeks, if fat counts as bulk) where Amile would get eaten alive (hopefully not literally) and that is a fair concern, but evidence doesn't suggest that MP3 would be any better at guarding the dough boy just because he has a couple inches and a few pounds more than Amile.

8-10 minutes per game, mostly in the first half, is just about right for him right now.

You sir, are a man among men.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-19-2014, 10:08 AM
I know a lot of discussion here on MPIII and his minutes, however I see other tweaks that might help Duke. The first is get the ball in the low post to Amile. He is an athletic player with surprising handle. He's not going to go up and post someone with a dunk, but he sure can use the rim for protection. The second is for our guards to get the ball to our big who set's a pick for them. There have been several times our guard has failed to make the pass to the big who has rolled to the basket. I know this is a tough pass, but we seldom see it made. The third is for Hood to work hard in practice on his mid-range jumper. He was making that shot earlier in the year, but it's lately. The last, I would like to see a few more minutes for Andre. I don't want all those minutes to come from Tyler has some have mentioned. I think he could get a few of Rodney's and a few from Rasheed and Jabari. If Marshall get's 8-12 minutes, then I would like to see Andre get around 15-18 minutes with some set plays called for him. But hey I'm just a Duke fan. Not a HOF coach. GoDuke!

He had at least two really impressive moves last night that epitomized that. His development has been a little overlooked with some of our other super-stars, but that kid is going to be a full-blown force in the very near future. If opposing teams have to game-plan for him, it will be very good for opening up the floor for our shooters and our slashers.

jv001
02-19-2014, 10:12 AM
He had at least two really impressive moves last night that epitomized that. His development has been a little overlooked with some of our other super-stars, but that kid is going to be a full-blown force in the very near future. If opposing teams have to game-plan for him, it will be very good for opening up the floor for our shooters and our slashers.

Amen! I love the way Amile competes and the way he handles himself. We are blessed to have him and I expect he will have a positive impact on our Tournament results. GoDuke!

oldnavy
02-19-2014, 10:17 AM
I think there's a prevailing notion that Duke HAS to have a guy 6'10" or bigger playing 20+ minutes, just because, and if we don't then we can't win a title. I personally agree with a previous poster that Jefferson is much more effective at the 5 spot than Marshall on both ends. Now some would argue that matchup-wise we're going to run into someone with some bulk (like Meeks, if fat counts as bulk) where Amile would get eaten alive (hopefully not literally) and that is a fair concern, but evidence doesn't suggest that MP3 would be any better at guarding the dough boy just because he has a couple inches and a few pounds more than Amile.

8-10 minutes per game, mostly in the first half, is just about right for him right now.

The key to the interior play will be positioning and ball pressure. If Paige (or Britt) are allowed to get into the paint or have enough room to make easy entry passes into the low post, then we will struggle.

This isn't unique to us or our bigs. Any team will struggle against UNC if they can feed the ball into the low post at will or if they can grab offensive rebounds. Their bigs are good enough to put the ball in the basket from point blank range against just about any post defenders IMO.

The challenge will be to make them work really hard to get the ball down low. If we can push Johnson, Meeks, James, etc... about 5-7 feet out then I think we have a MUCH better chance of reducing their effectiveness. All we really need to do is push them just far enough outside their comfort zone... and then put the brakes on Paige. He isn't a great speedster, but he is quick enough to get the angle to the basket so help defense will be important as well. Another option would be to front their bigs and make them attempt to go over our defenders.... I have noticed that UNC has struggled at times this year to make that type of precision pass....

I hope we play off of Paige just enough to make it very tempting for him to settle for jump shots... I'd rather take my chances on him having an average shooting night, than him burning us in the lane like he did against FSU the other night. If he drives we really need to make him go to his right hand...

Fouls worry me in this game. The way the games are being called this year makes it really hard if not impossible to stop a determined penetrating guard... I hope we can find the right mix of being loose enough to not draw the ticky tack fouls, but tight enough to make it difficult for Paige...

On offense, I hope we can get into the paint, utilize a head fake because UNC's big are really aggressive going after blocks, and then created contact and fouls. Also, the bigs and wings tend to play off their man and collapse on the driver, so hopefully we can get some kick outs for open 3's... and make them.

I believe we should win this game, but as with almost any UNC Duke game, any outcome is possible and I won't be shocked either way.

jv001
02-19-2014, 10:23 AM
The key to the interior play will be positioning and ball pressure. If Paige (or Britt) are allowed to get into the paint or have enough room to make easy entry passes into the low post, then we will struggle.

This isn't unique to us or our bigs. Any team will struggle against UNC if they can feed the ball into the low post at will or if they can grab offensive rebounds. Their bigs are good enough to put the ball in the basket from point blank range against just about any post defenders IMO.

The challenge will be to make them work really hard to get the ball down low. If we can push Johnson, Meeks, James, etc... about 5-7 feet out then I think we have a MUCH better chance of reducing their effectiveness. All we really need to do is push them just far enough outside their comfort zone... and then put the brakes on Paige. He isn't a great speedster, but he is quick enough to get the angle to the basket so help defense will be important as well. Another option would be to front their bigs and make them attempt to go over our defenders.... I have noticed that UNC has struggled at times this year to make that type of precision pass....

I hope we play off of Paige just enough to make it very tempting for him to settle for jump shots... I'd rather take my chances on him having an average shooting night, than him burning us in the lane like he did against FSU the other night. If he drives we really need to make him go to his right hand...

Fouls worry me in this game. The way the games are being called this year makes it really hard if not impossible to stop a determined penetrating guard... I hope we can find the right mix of being loose enough to not draw the ticky tack fouls, but tight enough to make it difficult for Paige...

On offense, I hope we can get into the paint, utilize a head fake because UNC's big are really aggressive going after blocks, and then created contact and fouls. Also, the bigs and wings tend to play off their man and collapse on the driver, so hopefully we can get some kick outs for open 3's... and make them.

I believe we should win this game, but as with almost any UNC Duke game, any outcome is possible and I won't be shocked either way.

You have hit on my biggest worry in this game. I'm concerned that the refs get whistle crazy and Rasheed get's in foul trouble. He's done a very good job guarding on the ball with pressure. If memory serves me correctly he's done that with little foul trouble. I think we can apply the pressure needed to keep unc's guards from making an easy entry pass to their bigs and I think our guards can slow down dribble penetration. But not if Rasheed get's into foul trouble. I don't know why, but I always worry about "home cooking" when we play unc away. GoDuke!

hudlow
02-19-2014, 10:33 AM
I noticed a couple of occasions last night where Jabari got an defensive rebound and out ran the team to the other end.

I know he's fast - and that's good.

But, shouldn't our guys at least keep up with him?

I hope the team hasn't decided Jabari doesn't need any help.


hud

flyingdutchdevil
02-19-2014, 10:45 AM
1) Someone said it already, but it's a valid point and needs to be said again. That second half was just really really boring. Great for Duke basketball (especially given our crazy schedule), terrible for the average fan.

2) For the first time, I voted Tyler Thornton as MOTM. I am not in the anti-Thornton camp at all (I actually love the kid. Does anyone else on the team maximize their talent like Thornton?). Duke did what Duke has gone a lot this year: get complacent in the second half after such a dominating first half. Thornton wouldn't let GT come back. God I love him.

3) I really enjoy the two-headed monster at PG. Rasheed and Cook couldn't be more different as PGs. It's quite striking, actually. And they are both extremely effective in their own way.

4) Jabari didn't attempt a 3 yesterday. I also really like that. It's not that Jabari is a bad 3pt shooter, but his 3pt shots are usually hero ball 3s. He'll rarely attempt an open 3 because, well, he is never open!

5) That is the best team defense I've seen. The rotations were crisp, the help D solid, and the pressure strong. This team is really starting to gel well on D. And this is why we just aren't seeing a lot of Hairston.

6) Speaking of Hairston, I know there are a lot of jokes about the refs being bias towards Hairston, but those were fouls. Now, they were touch fouls. But they were fouls nonetheless. As a senior, Hairston needs to know better.

7) Rodney Hood is gonna be amazing in the NBA. Rodney has a beautiful shot, can dribble, has length, and has plenty of speed. Essentially, he's a massive 2 guard. And the problem with the NBA right now? There aren't any amazing 2s. It's the weakest position in the NBA. The 2 best 2s - Kobe and Wade - need crutches on the court. Eric Gordon, Joe Johnson, and JR Smith have had terrible seasons. There are too many 3 and D guys who can't create their own mid-range or lay-up/dunk. Lance Stephenson and James Harden are arguably the future of the 2 guard. Hood has plenty of potential to crush it at this position. However, knowing the NBA, some idiot coach or GM will probably play Hood at the 3.

Kedsy
02-19-2014, 10:58 AM
Let's see if Cook can step into this role and thrive as the play maker for the 2nd unit...

Except there is no "second unit." The "blue team" only played for 6 minutes in this game. Quinn will start or he won't start, but if he's going to play he needs to thrive as the playmaker in the main rotation.


Sulaimon brings the dynamic offensive package that we would get from Cook at his best...

I disagree with this. Quinn "at his best" is a much better passer and much better floor general than Rasheed is. The offense runs more smoothly when at-his-best Quinn is running it. Even against Georgia Tech, Rasheed had just one assist (against one turnover). That's not a playmaker who's running the offense. I'm not saying Rasheed is playing poorly -- to the contrary I love that he's back where we thought he should be. But he's a combo guard primarily hunting his own shot. He may be dynamic but he doesn't at all bring to the table what Quinn could.

azzefkram
02-19-2014, 11:03 AM
This is true, but we can look at the whole season too, and the data aren't exactly screaming that Plumlee's a great player right now. Offensively he's only fractionally better than even Josh (ORtg 109.5 vs. 108.7, and both are very low-usage players), and while he does block a healthy number of shots, he isn't great on the defensive glass. Just using the eye test, he's often out-of-position defensively. He's done nothing to show that he should be above the ninth man in the rotation, and ninth men aren't usually going to be logging heavy minutes in conference or tournament games unless someone's in foul trouble, hurt, or there is a very specific matchup advantage.

First off, I am not screaming or saying that Marshall is a great player. I think the president (I am just the treasurer) of the MPIII fan club would be challenged to make that claim. I think the season data for Marshall is of limited use since his season is just a series of small sample sizes. He does need to hit the defensive glass better but he is not bad at it and as CDu mentioned he is very good at boxing out. While no on will be calling him Dikembe anytime soon, he is our best shotblocker. While your eyes see that he's often out of position, mine don't see that. My eyes also see Marshall as our best man post defender. As for offense, I don't care and frankly neither should you. We do not look for nor particularly need offense from the 5. It's strictly clean up on aisle five for our Cs. Marshall is and should be our eighth man as he is clearly ahead of Matt, Josh and Semi. To me that is a 10-15 minute per game player.

jv001
02-19-2014, 11:05 AM
Except there is no "second unit." The "blue team" only played for 6 minutes in this game. Quinn will start or he won't start, but if he's going to play he needs to thrive as the playmaker in the main rotation.



I disagree with this. Quinn "at his best" is a much better passer and much better floor general than Rasheed is. The offense runs more smoothly when at-his-best Quinn is running it. Even against Georgia Tech, Rasheed had just one assist (against one turnover). That's not a playmaker who's running the offense. I'm not saying Rasheed is playing poorly -- to the contrary I love that he's back where we thought he should be. But he's a combo guard primarily hunting his own shot. He may be dynamic but he doesn't at all bring to the table what Quinn could.

Tyler led Duke with 5 assist and 0 turnovers. We do need Quinn at his best and I think we will see him turn it around. GoDuke!

roywhite
02-19-2014, 11:07 AM
He had at least two really impressive moves last night that epitomized that. His development has been a little overlooked with some of our other super-stars, but that kid is going to be a full-blown force in the very near future. If opposing teams have to game-plan for him, it will be very good for opening up the floor for our shooters and our slashers.

Yeah, loved those plays. Visions of Kevin McHale or Akeem Olajuwon!

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-19-2014, 11:13 AM
First off, I am not screaming or saying that Marshall is a great player. I think the president (I am just the treasurer) of the MPIII fan club would be challenged to make that claim. I think the season data for Marshall is of limited use since his season is just a series of small sample sizes. He does need to hit the defensive glass better but he is not bad at it and as CDu mentioned he is very good at boxing out. While no on will be calling him Dikembe anytime soon, he is our best shotblocker. While your eyes see that he's often out of position, mine don't see that. My eyes also see Marshall as our best man post defender. As for offense, I don't care and frankly neither should you. We do not look for nor particularly need offense from the 5. It's strictly clean up on aisle five for our Cs. Marshall is and should be our eighth man as he is clearly ahead of Matt, Josh and Semi. To me that is a 10-15 minute per game player.

I'm going to call you out on this one, because as I mentioned above, in the Syracuse game it made a HUGE difference in how their zone was able to guard us. We used him effectively to swing the ball from the top of the key, but someone like Parker (who can play anywhere) or Amile would be MUCH more effective. Having a tall triple threat (drive, shoot, pass) with the ball at the top of the key against the zone is flippin' money. With Marshall, they were playing about four feet off of him and able to follow the pass. If he were able to convert just one or two jump shots a game from there or make an effective drive, it completely changes the dynamic of that defense. Amile has that, Marshall does not.

Again, your statement writing off the useless "season data" for Marshall due to small sample sizes makes my point that for the pro-Marshall posters there is no counter-evidence.

If you can't refer to someone's stats, please tell me what you are supposed to use for evidence?

azzefkram
02-19-2014, 11:17 AM
Except there is no "second unit." The "blue team" only played for 6 minutes in this game. Quinn will start or he won't start, but if he's going to play he needs to thrive as the playmaker in the main rotation.

While I liked seeing the two unit rotation, it had little chance for success. The "blue team" was basically one and a half against 5 on O and had our 2 worst perimeter defenders along with our worst big defender on D. I consider it a small miracle that it lasted 6 minutes.


I disagree with this. Quinn "at his best" is a much better passer and much better floor general than Rasheed is. The offense runs more smoothly when at-his-best Quinn is running it. Even against Georgia Tech, Rasheed had just one assist (against one turnover). That's not a playmaker who's running the offense. I'm not saying Rasheed is playing poorly -- to the contrary I love that he's back where we thought he should be. But he's a combo guard primarily hunting his own shot. He may be dynamic but he doesn't at all bring to the table what Quinn could.

I couldn't agree with you more. For the second game in a row, I thought our half-court O looked poor.

Kedsy
02-19-2014, 11:19 AM
I was just wondering if you could explain what is holding you back on looking for opportunities to praise Marshall and focus more on his positives than his negatives. Maybe I am just incorrect in my assessment of him as an athletic big man with potential to provide an intimidating inside presence on both ends if he were given more minutes. Just curious.

I don't hold back. In the Maryland post-game thread I said, "I thought this was Marshall's best game of the season. He really showed me something tonight. I'm still not sure we could justify him playing much more than 10 mpg this season, but he looked really good on both sides of the court tonight." And I said it because I thought Marshall was outstanding against Maryland.

I have also consistently said that I'd like to see him play about 10 mpg this season and that we don't need him to play big minutes in order to succeed. My reasoning for that was ably stated by the eloquent posts from kAzE, Mountain_Devil, jv001, vick, and UC.

Right now Jabari and Amile should be getting the lion's share of the minutes and Marshall should be the backup. My hope is he can get 8 to 10 mpg for the rest of this season, 15 or so next season and then be a starter his senior season. Maybe he advances more quickly than that, but that would be a surprise to me.


The last, I would like to see a few more minutes for Andre. I don't want all those minutes to come from Tyler has some have mentioned. I think he could get a few of Rodney's and a few from Rasheed and Jabari. If Marshall get's 8-12 minutes, then I would like to see Andre get around 15-18 minutes with some set plays called for him. But hey I'm just a Duke fan. Not a HOF coach. GoDuke!

I totally agree with this. Our offense is most fearsome when Andre is a threat. Even with just 15 minutes of active play, the opponent will have to game plan against him, to avoid the potential 6 straight threes that everyone knows could happen, and that opens things up for everyone else on the team.

kAzE
02-19-2014, 11:23 AM
7) Rodney Hood is gonna be amazing in the NBA. Rodney has a beautiful shot, can dribble, has length, and has plenty of speed. Essentially, he's a massive 2 guard. And the problem with the NBA right now? There aren't any amazing 2s. It's the weakest position in the NBA. The 2 best 2s - Kobe and Wade - need crutches on the court. Eric Gordon, Joe Johnson, and JR Smith have had terrible seasons. There are too many 3 and D guys who can't create their own mid-range or lay-up/dunk. Lance Stephenson and James Harden are arguably the future of the 2 guard. Hood has plenty of potential to crush it at this position. However, knowing the NBA, some idiot coach or GM will probably play Hood at the 3.

This is super off-topic, but I love talking about the NBA, and Duke players' prospects in the league, so I'm going to indulge myself. Defensively, Hood is going to have a lot of work cut out for him. This why many people regard Gary Harris as the superior prospect, but in terms of size, and shooting ability, he's going to be very good. But, really, you'd have to be Larry Drew or Mike Brown (a very bad coach) to play him at the 3. He'd get destroyed by most small forwards in the NBA (No chance at all stopping or scoring on LeBron, KD, or Paul George), but his size would allow him to shoot over most 2 guards.

His arms are also very average in length in comparison to his height. For comparison, Paul George is 6'9" with a 6'11" wingspan, and Kevin Durant (definitive proof that he's an alien) is 6'10" with a freakish 7'5" wingspan. Hood is on par with the average human, standing 6'8" with a 6'8" wingspan. So, while he's tall, basketball is more about the length of a player's arms than the height of his head (Jay Bilas is rightly obsessed with this measurement). This is why Elton Brand was such an effective big man in his prime, despite standing just 6'9" (7'6" wingspan!!!!!!!).

Another knock on Hood is that he doesn't have elite handles or elite quickness. However, his shooting ability, size, and maturity will keep him in the league for many years.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-19-2014, 11:26 AM
I don't hold back. In the Maryland post-game thread I said, "I thought this was Marshall's best game of the season. He really showed me something tonight. I'm still not sure we could justify him playing much more than 10 mpg this season, but he looked really good on both sides of the court tonight." And I said it because I thought Marshall was outstanding against Maryland.

I have also consistently said that I'd like to see him play about 10 mpg this season and that we don't need him to play big minutes in order to succeed. My reasoning for that was ably stated by the eloquent posts from kAzE, Mountain_Devil, jv001, vick, and UC.

Right now Jabari and Amile should be getting the lion's share of the minutes and Marshall should be the backup. My hope is he can get 8 to 10 mpg for the rest of this season, 15 or so next season and then be a starter his senior season. Maybe he advances more quickly than that, but that would be a surprise to me.



I totally agree with this. Our offense is most fearsome when Andre is a threat. Even with just 15 minutes of active play, the opponent will have to game plan against him, to avoid the potential 6 straight threes that everyone knows could happen, and that opens things up for everyone else on the team.

I appreciate you having my back on this. I have to admit, finding myself in the weird and awkward position of advocating AGAINST increased minutes for any Duke player makes me feel very icky. I think I'm going to bow out of this entire fight. I've stayed quiet on the matter for several weeks, but this most recent bluster in the absence of any evidence really got my ire up.

Let me clarify: I love all our players and I want all of them to succeed. No one would be happier than I if Marshall (or Semi, Todd, or Josh) went buck-and-a-quarter wild for 25 points against UNC tomorrow night. I root for all of our players individually, and I only root more heartily for the success of our entire team. When the two go hand in hand, I'm happy as a clam.

Go Duke! Go Marshall! Go Jabari, Todd, et al.

Kfanarmy
02-19-2014, 11:44 AM
I don't ever recall Kedsy saying anything really negative about Plumlee other than the truth. .... I seem to remember Kedsy arguing strenuously in another thread that MPIII hadn't shown anything that deserved an increase above the 2-3 MPG he was playing a few weeks ago. Kedsy's preference as I recall was to give increased minutes to Hairston. That seems a bit negative I'd say. I'd also say, the truth is a lot more than statistics.

Kedsy
02-19-2014, 11:47 AM
Marshall is and should be our eighth man as he is clearly ahead of Matt, Josh and Semi. To me that is a 10-15 minute per game player.

The eighth man under Coach K doesn't play close to 15 mpg, and only averages more than 10 mpg if you count garbage time and early season cupcake games. Our eighth man plays 5 to 10 mpg if you look at games after January 1 decided by fewer than 20 points. Last season, for example, we only had two such games in which the 8th man topped 10 mpg. Historically, we are more likely to have 6 or fewer guys play double-figure minutes in such games than we are to have 8 or more.

So, unless Coach K has completely changed his stripes, 5 to 10 minutes is about the best we can expect from our 8th man from here on in. Personally, I'm hoping it's closer to 10.


While I liked seeing the two unit rotation, it had little chance for success. The "blue team" was basically one and a half against 5 on O and had our 2 worst perimeter defenders along with our worst big defender on D. I consider it a small miracle that it lasted 6 minutes.

Yeah, I don't think the line change thing can work unless we do it the way we did at the beginning: Quinn and Matt with the 1st unit; Rasheed and Tyler (and Andre) with the 2nd unit. That's the best balance of offense and defense across both lines. Rasheed's driving and slashing ability combined with Andre's (and Tyler's) outside shooting and Marshall's offensive rebounding gives that unit sufficient firepower. With Quinn, Andre, and Matt manning the perimeter, if the opponent makes sure to keep someone close to Andre then Quinn doesn't really have anybody to pass to, and he's not as effective as Rasheed at taking it himself all the way to the rack.

So if Rasheed's going to start, I don't think the line change is a feasible strategy.

Kedsy
02-19-2014, 12:02 PM
I seem to remember Kedsy arguing strenuously in another thread that MPIII hadn't shown anything that deserved an increase above the 2-3 MPG he was playing a few weeks ago. Kedsy's preference as I recall was to give increased minutes to Hairston. That seems a bit negative I'd say. I'd also say, the truth is a lot more than statistics.

I believe you're remembering incorrectly. I have consistently expressed the hope that Marshall could get up to 10 mpg. Back in November I argued that Marshall hadn't yet shown anything to justify him playing ahead of Josh (I don't recall ever suggesting Josh's minutes should be increased, though). And the truth was, at that time, Marshall hadn't shown anything to justify him playing ahead of Josh. That wasn't being negative; it was an honest assessment of what the two players brought to the table at that time.

Since the line change thing started, more than a month ago, I have consistently agreed that Marshall has rightly moved ahead of Josh and now deserves the 8 to 10 minutes he's getting. Just because I don't think he has shown enough to get more than that, or to move ahead of Amile in the rotation, is not in my opinion being negative.

vick
02-19-2014, 12:08 PM
If you can't refer to someone's stats, please tell me what you are supposed to use for evidence?

Height. How excited they look. Memories of Zoubek. Siblings' NBA performance.

azzefkram
02-19-2014, 12:18 PM
The eighth man under Coach K doesn't play close to 15 mpg, and only averages more than 10 mpg if you count garbage time and early season cupcake games. Our eighth man plays 5 to 10 mpg if you look at games after January 1 decided by fewer than 20 points. Last season, for example, we only had two such games in which the 8th man topped 10 mpg. Historically, we are more likely to have 6 or fewer guys play double-figure minutes in such games than we are to have 8 or more.

So, unless Coach K has completely changed his stripes, 5 to 10 minutes is about the best we can expect from our 8th man from here on in. Personally, I'm hoping it's closer to 10.

I agree but I do think you need to take position into account. Marshall is not better than Quinn, Sheed, Tyler or Dre but subbing any of those 4 for Amile or Jabari moves Rodney to the 4 which is less than ideal. If Marshall backs up Jabari (35) and Amile (30), you can come up with 10-15 mins/gm.

Kedsy
02-19-2014, 12:29 PM
I agree but I do think you need to take position into account. Marshall is not better than Quinn, Sheed, Tyler or Dre but subbing any of those 4 for Amile or Jabari moves Rodney to the 4 which is less than ideal. If Marshall backs up Jabari (35) and Amile (30), you can come up with 10-15 mins/gm.

Yes, you can, but it's not likely or realistic to expect Marshall to get every available frontcourt minute. Even with his role diminished, Josh is good for 3 or 4 minutes a game, and if the game's close, we're probably going small for at least a few minutes and maybe more than a few. And we all know that as the season moves along, Coach K plays his starters more and more.

So, like I said before, the likelihood for Marshall is 8 to 10 (maybe less but I hope not). We can hope it's closer to 10, but in my opinion, 15 mpg is a pipe dream.

LBF
02-19-2014, 01:01 PM
Warning: obvious Adams herein:

It really seems like K is riding the horses that are hot this season more so than any previous season. And I have to say I really think that's a great approach. It keeps all the players hungry and also we get the most out of our team with peaking players getting the most minutes. I rarely see other coaches attempt this. Maybe they don't have the depth we do or maybe my lens is dukecentric, but I haven't seem it much at other programs or even in prior Duke years. Now I know there have been landmark role changes for players a la Jon scheyer, but this year it's more systemic. Think about when he benched Jabari at the end of ND, or Sheed in his stretch of very few minutes culminating with Michigan. Thornton going a stretch there with fewer minutes. Now cook and hockey line changes. The list goes on. This strategy has been very effective in my opinion. This coaching staff really has the pulse of this team and is capturing talent at its peaks and minimizing the impact of the inevitable valleys.

It's obvious to say, but we are blessed with the best coaching staff in the business. I know we will miss them dearly when they leave Duke. But, that goes with and without saying!

azzefkram
02-19-2014, 01:24 PM
I'm going to call you out on this one, because as I mentioned above, in the Syracuse game it made a HUGE difference in how their zone was able to guard us. We used him effectively to swing the ball from the top of the key, but someone like Parker (who can play anywhere) or Amile would be MUCH more effective. Having a tall triple threat (drive, shoot, pass) with the ball at the top of the key against the zone is flippin' money. With Marshall, they were playing about four feet off of him and able to follow the pass. If he were able to convert just one or two jump shots a game from there or make an effective drive, it completely changes the dynamic of that defense. Amile has that, Marshall does not.

I will agree on Jabari but Amile would NOT be much more effective than Marshall. Amile has shown a reluctance to shoot from the high post. The D would sag off of him just like they would with Marshall or Josh. Amile is a much better driver than Marshall (cue Rain Man), but it is limited by reluctance/inability to shoot from 10 feet out. I think Amile is a great player but I think his effectiveness is significantly reduced in the high post.


Again, your statement writing off the useless "season data" for Marshall due to small sample sizes makes my point that for the pro-Marshall posters there is no counter-evidence.

If you can't refer to someone's stats, please tell me what you are supposed to use for evidence?

Having difficulty lifting that huge brush you're slapping around there? Limited is not useless, just limited. If Marshall's DRB% is the reason for him not to play more, then his eFG%, DRtg, BLK% and ORB% says that he should be starting. I don't think he should start.

What I find most amusing is that people get their panties in a bunch when someone questions Marshall's minutes but have no problem questioning Andre's.

azzefkram
02-19-2014, 01:26 PM
Yes, you can, but it's not likely or realistic to expect Marshall to get every available frontcourt minute. Even with his role diminished, Josh is good for 3 or 4 minutes a game, and if the game's close, we're probably going small for at least a few minutes and maybe more than a few. And we all know that as the season moves along, Coach K plays his starters more and more.

So, like I said before, the likelihood for Marshall is 8 to 10 (maybe less but I hope not). We can hope it's closer to 10, but in my opinion, 15 mpg is a pipe dream.

I know you are right but it is fun to dream once in a while.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-19-2014, 01:29 PM
I will agree on Jabari but Amile would NOT be much more effective than Marshall. Amile has shown a reluctance to shoot from the high post. The D would sag off of him just like they would with Marshall or Josh. Amile is a much better driver than Marshall (cue Rain Man), but it is limited by reluctance/inability to shoot from 10 feet out. I think Amile is a great player but I think his effectiveness is significantly reduced in the high post.



Having difficulty lifting that huge brush you're slapping around there? Limited is not useless, just limited. If Marshall's DRB% is the reason for him not to play more, then his eFG%, DRtg, BLK% and ORB% says that he should be starting. I don't think he should start.

What I find most amusing is that people get their panties in a bunch when someone questions Marshall's minutes but have no problem questioning Andre's.

I respectfully disagree with your points. I have just tired to the incessant drum beating for Marshall's minutes to skyrocket.

I have nothing more to add to the discussion and will withdraw. I hope that you are right and I am wrong. Truly, I do. I hope Marshall goes for 15 and 10 against UNC tomorrow. I will be the first one to post and say "oh boy."

Go Duke! Beat UNC!

alteran
02-19-2014, 01:30 PM
A shame the NCAA hasn't made kneeing a shooter to the ground a point of emphasis, then.

Seriously. What's the point of calling handchecks 50 feet from the basket when you let that kind of stuff go on?

Ichabod Drain
02-19-2014, 01:54 PM
Attended the game last night and just want to reiterate what I've already seen posted here.

1. The arena was a great place to watch a basketball game. I was upper level and still could see both ends of the court clearly. I don't think there was a bad seat in the house. It was also very open, you could see the court from all around the main level where concessions and restrooms are. Really enjoyed it.

2. There were a lot of Duke fans present. I attended with my girlfriend who is a GT alum and also who had never been to a basketball game there before. She commented a couple times on all the blue in the arena. I loved how twice I heard loud and clear a "Let's Go Duke" chant.

Had an awesome experience for my first game of this season seeing the team live.

Now GTHCGTH!!! 9F9F9F!!!!

Kedsy
02-19-2014, 01:57 PM
If Marshall's DRB% is the reason for him not to play more, then his eFG%, DRtg, BLK% and ORB% says that he should be starting.

Well, not really. Despite his high eFG%, his overall oRtg is tied (with Josh) for 2nd-to-worst on the team (and his win shares per 40 and his PER are both 3rd-worst on the team, ahead of only Josh and Matt). His dRtg (which, the way it's calculated is not a particularly helpful stat to begin with), is worse than Amile's, Jabari's, and even Semi's. His blk% is better than Jabari's or Amile's (although worse than Semi's), but wouldn't even rank in the top 15 in the ACC (assuming Marshall played enough to be in the rankings and kept his blocks constant), so despite being good for this year's Duke team his shotblocking wouldn't seem to be strong enough to justify more playing time. His OR% is very good, but still not as good as Amile's.

So even if we cherry pick Marshall's best stats it wouldn't justify his playing any more than he is currently.


What I find most amusing is that people get their panties in a bunch when someone questions Marshall's minutes but have no problem questioning Andre's.

That may be because (a) Andre has shown that given sufficient minutes he can be a deadly weapon; and (b) unlike Marshall's stats, Andre's stats are incredible: His oRtg is 2nd in the ACC (behind Tyler!) and his eFG% and TS% are both 1st in the ACC, and all those stats come with the 2nd highest usage% on the team (behind Jabari). His PER is 2nd on the team (also behind Jabari) and his win shares per 40 is best on the team. And while I said in the previous paragraph that dRtg isn't a particularly helpful stat, I would also point out that Andre's dRtg is better than Rasheed's, Quinn's, and Rodney's.

So, unlike Marshall, Andre's stats suggest he should play more. Obviously the coaching staff sees a lot more than the numbers (practice, consistency of effort, mixing and matching with the other players, etc.), so it's hard to second-guess Coach K's decisions too strongly. But it still makes sense that fans who pay attention to the stats (rather than solely looking at height and weight) would suggest Andre should play more and wouldn't suggest the same for Marshall.

jv001
02-19-2014, 02:23 PM
That may be because (a) Andre has shown that given sufficient minutes he can be a deadly weapon; and (b) unlike Marshall's stats, Andre's stats are incredible: His oRtg is 2nd in the ACC (behind Tyler!) and his eFG% and TS% are both 1st in the ACC, and all those stats come with the 2nd highest usage% on the team (behind Jabari). His PER is 2nd on the team (also behind Jabari) and his win shares per 40 is best on the team. And while I said in the previous paragraph that dRtg isn't a particularly helpful stat, I would also point out that Andre's dRtg is better than Rasheed's, Quinn's, and Rodney's.

So, unlike Marshall, Andre's stats suggest he should play more. Obviously the coaching staff sees a lot more than the numbers (practice, consistency of effort, mixing and matching with the other players, etc.), so it's hard to second-guess Coach K's decisions too strongly. But it still makes sense that fans who pay attention to the stats (rather than solely looking at height and weight) would suggest Andre should play more and wouldn't suggest the same for Marshall.

I don't think I've seen a Duke player make such incredible improvements in their games as Andre has. He has always been a lights out shooter, but now he can play defense and not be liability, he's not afraid to stick his nose in there and come up with a big rebound. Previously when he rebounded a shot, he couldn't wait to pass it to someone else. He's shown that he can put the ball on the floor and get to the basket or shoot a mid-range jump shot. His communication with his teammates has risen to a high level and it seems Coach K trusts him like never before. Yeh, based on the stats and the eye test, I would like to see him get more minutes. GoDuke!

freshmanjs
02-19-2014, 02:25 PM
I don't think I've seen a Duke player make such incredible improvements in their games as Andre has. He has always been a lights out shooter, but now he can play defense and not be liability, he's not afraid to stick his nose in there and come up with a big rebound. Previously when he rebounded a shot, he couldn't wait to pass it to someone else. He's shown that he can put the ball on the floor and get to the basket or shoot a mid-range jump shot and his communication with his teammates has risen to a high level. Yeh, based on the stats and the eye test, I would like to see him get more minutes. GoDuke!

i really like Andre too, but lots of Duke players have made greater start to finish improvements in their games. Ryan Kelly and Mason Plumlee for two recent examples. and for improvement in similar ares to what you're discussing, JJ Redick.

jv001
02-19-2014, 02:27 PM
i really like Andre too, but lots of Duke players have made greater start to finish improvements in their games. Ryan Kelly and Mason Plumlee for two recent examples. and for improvement in similar ares to what you're discussing, JJ Redick.

Well yeh, but they didn't go through the same things Andre did and take a year off. Plus the guys you mentioned were better basketball players when they arrived at Duke. GoDuke!

Tripping William
02-19-2014, 04:02 PM
Does someone have a link to K's post-game press conference last night? If so, would you post it (or point me to it)? Thanks in advance.

ArtVandelay
02-19-2014, 04:21 PM
As one who has not participated in these debates, I want to say for the record that these endless discussions of Marshall's minutes are incredibly exhausting.

I'll offer some thoughts on a non-Marshall topic. I only caught the second half last night (lucky me), but I am definitely leaning toward the view that Kedsy and perhaps others have expressed that our team is best when Quinn is playing starter's minutes at the PG. I am pleased that Sheed has been playing more aggressively lately and has improved quite a bit at driving and dishing to open teammates. I actually think he did this pretty effectively against Maryland; we just missed open threes. However, I do think he tends to get too laser-focused on driving the ball all the way to the basket every time and ends up getting out of control and forcing bad shots or turning it over. There were several possessions in the second half last night where that seemed to be the case (I was surprised he only had 1 TO in the box score). Quinn does a better job of being steady and keeping all of our weapons involved. And I think Quinn is a very good driver and an exceptionally good finisher around the basket in his own right. If he can get his mojo back in terms of being a more aggressive play-maker, then we can potentially have the best of both worlds and let Sheed be more selective in terms of picking his spots to attack offensively.

I also agree that Andre should be getting more burn. Frankly, unless the situation really warrants it because of defensive concerns, I don't see why Matt Jones should be getting any of Dre's minutes in big games, and I wouldn't mind Andre stealing a few of Rasheed's and/or Tyler's minutes, depending on match-ups and situations.

LBF
02-19-2014, 07:14 PM
I also agree that Andre should be getting more burn. Frankly, unless the situation really warrants it because of defensive concerns, I don't see why Matt Jones should be getting any of Dre's minutes in big games, and I wouldn't mind Andre stealing a few of Rasheed's and/or Tyler's minutes, depending on match-ups and situations.

Agreed. I am surprised the Dre is averaging 15 min and Matt is averaging 8. Thornton averages 20 but he has point duties that increase his burn.

Wildling
02-19-2014, 07:16 PM
I haven't scanned through the thread, but wanted to offer my thoughts of excitement over last nights game.

I loved the confidence they showed on offense and the tenacious defense in the first half. That is what I expected against Maryland.

Second half was brutal. I think our defense was still tough as nails and that was the reason we were able to sustain the double digit lead. It's tough to complain about beating an opponent soundly for a majority of the game. I like it when that happens!

If they can put two halves of basketball together like the first half, man watch out!

Troublemaker
02-19-2014, 11:35 PM
From BluePlanetShots.com:
http://www.blueplanetshots.com/2013-14/Players/2013-14-GIFs/i-jBgTvGs/0/X2/GT2-%20AMILE-X2.gif

dyedwab
02-19-2014, 11:46 PM
From BluePlanetShots.com:
http://www.blueplanetshots.com/2013-14/Players/2013-14-GIFs/i-jBgTvGs/0/X2/GT2-%20AMILE-X2.gif


I'm pretty sure that that's my favorite play all year....or at least in the top 3.

Des Esseintes
02-20-2014, 12:18 AM
I'm pretty sure that that's my favorite play all year....or at least in the top 3.

Right? Just gorgeous.

brevity
02-20-2014, 12:22 AM
I'm pretty sure that that's my favorite play all year....or at least in the top 3.


Right? Just gorgeous.

I look forward to seeing Amile Jefferson take his UNC defenders to school. Unfortunately, he may have to wait until the game at Cameron, because there are no schools near the Dean Dome.

CDu
02-20-2014, 04:12 PM
I'm pretty sure that that's my favorite play all year....or at least in the top 3.

It was a really nice play. Technically it was a travel, but we will let that slide (just as the refs often do).

Billy Dat
02-20-2014, 04:16 PM
It was a really nice play. Technically it was a travel, but we will let that slide (just as the refs often do).

As Brando noted on the broadcast, it was vintage "Dream Shake" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxDopaqTxiY)

Kedsy
02-20-2014, 04:19 PM
It was a really nice play. Technically it was a travel, but we will let that slide (just as the refs often do).

I thought the same thing, but I didn't want to be a Debbie Downer and mention it. :p

davekay1971
02-20-2014, 04:20 PM
It was a really nice play. Technically it was a travel, but we will let that slide (just as the refs often do).

The critical foot is the left foot, which he planted as his pivot foot when he picked up the ball. When he reversed direction he didn't move the left foot until he jumped for the shot, which is all good. But, while I can't see it for sure on the video, it does look like he dragged the pivot foot when he first picked up the dribble. So yes, probably a travel.

That being said, if he can get a move like that down without dragging the pivot foot...it's money all day long.