Thoughts Well After an Early Decision Rejection

[matt1]

As some of you may remember, I posted on the Longest Thread Ever back in December after Duke had rejected me Early Decision. Today, as I am writing this, is my first time back on this board in over two months, because it is the first time that I feel as if I have something meaningful to say about the process. After I was rejected, I said to myself and my family that I was done caring about Duke sports, which had pretty much been my life to that point.

That was what I needed at the time, and I refused to watch the next few basketball games (mostly cupcakes, except the one against UCLA). However, I would always find myself checking the scores online. The first game, I was not sure who I even wanted to win, but, by the second game, I wanted them to win, but I did not care enough (or, more accurately, was too angry) to watch.

The first Duke sporting event that I did watch was the Chick-fil-A Bowl against Texas A&M. Strangely, I really did not feel bad watching the football game, but that is because my allegiance to the football team was newer, even though it was strong the last couple of years. I was rooting for Duke, but, you have to admit that that was an incredible game.

A few days later, I tried watching the basketball game against Notre Dame, but I found it too tough to watch for more than a minute or two at a time. With each game that passed, it became slightly easier to watch, until I finally watched the whole second half and overtime of the Syracuse game without having to change the channel. However, it still is a challenge to watch home games, as seeing the Cameron Crazies reminds me how I should have been one of them. Hopefully, time will ease that as well.

As for what my future holds, I am not yet sure where I will be next year. To this point, Duke remains my only rejection to go along with five acceptances, to Tulane, Alabama, Oklahoma, Kentucky, and Baylor. The last four of those are offering me full scholarships, but I still am waiting on many of my more selective regular decision schools, with my top three being Vanderbilt, Richmond, and Penn. I also am considering Miami, Bucknell, Drexel, South Carolina, and Davidson.

I am not ready to be on here regularly yet, but, in advance of Thursday: GO TO HELL, CAROLINA!!

Thank you,
Matt

[DukieInKansas]

It is good to hear from you. You have some amazing choices and opportunities ahead of you. I'm sure you are going to do amazing wherever you end up and make a great mark on the world.

I have thought about you off and on over the last few months. I wish I had great words of wisdom to ease your pain. Hang in there and let us know how you are doing and where you end up.

[Reisen]

I'm probably not the first to throw this out there, but there is always graduate school.

I was accepted to Duke (and graduated from there), while a good friend, who was in a similar situation as yours (that was her lifelong dream) was not. She had a slightly higher GPA (I had higher test scores and extracurricular activities, although hers were very good as well). She wound up at Penn, and has done very well.

I interview at several business schools (including Fuqua), and feel that all of these things (University admissions, recruiting at top universities) are largely a crap shoot. You have many, many impressive people, and only so many slots. Probably many more than can be offered would do well, but it's all a numbers game.

I suspect you will do well no matter where you wind up, so I suggest you choose based off of where you feel you would be happiest.

[Jim3k]

AFAIK, your application is still being considered as a regular applicant. You might check on that, but I believe that is still the procedure.

[Reisen]

AFAIK, your application is still being considered as a regular applicant. You might check on that, but I believe that is still the procedure.

Not sure if it's still the same, but it used to be your early application could have three outcomes: accept, reject, or defer to the regular admission pool.

That information is probably 15 years old, though.

[tbyers11]

Not sure if it's still the same, but it used to be your early application could have three outcomes: accept, reject, or defer to the regular admission pool.

That information is probably 15 years old, though.

Pretty sure that is still the case. Prospective students that I have interviewed in the last 3 years for early decision at Duke have had all three of those outcomes happen.

[devil84]

My children did not get into Duke, after a life of growing up Duke fans, aided and abetted by their Professor Emeritus grandfather (and a parent and uncle are alumni, as well as the uncles' wife's family who donated buildings to Duke who fanned the flames, too). It still hurts both them and me. However, over time, it does get better.

It is perfectly appropriate to be a Duke fan and attend another university.My children both attended NCSU, one graduating from State and the other transferring to Wake Forest after a year realizing he should have taken their initial offer after high school. They watched as many Duke games as their schedules allowed (even attending them with their grandma and me). They went to a few football and basketball games at their schools, too (though, sadly, there wasn't as much to cheer about for their schools). DO cheer for whatever school you attend. You can be a fan and appreciate one school while attending another. Eventually.

It's a total crap shoot getting into a top school. It's not a knock on YOU, it's more a knock on the process. But it hurts. Believe me, it hurts. But it does heal, eventually (with a little bit of a scar. :) )

And, if Duke has already closed the door (my son was deferred to regular admission before being denied -- worse than denied outright, IMHO, as it was a long, drawn out process of hopeful waiting), you might try transferring. There's also grad school. And if that doesn't work (my son didn't get into Duke's med school either, and yes, Grandpa was a professor in the med school and hospital administrator), it means that there's something else you're supposed to be doing. It's not that you're not "Duke material," it just means you didn't win the admissions lottery.


To this point, Duke remains my only rejection to go along with five acceptances, to Tulane, Alabama, Oklahoma, Kentucky, and Baylor. The last four of those are offering me full scholarships, but I still am waiting on many of my more selective regular decision schools, with my top three being Vanderbilt, Richmond, and Penn. I also am considering Miami, Bucknell, Drexel, South Carolina, and Davidson.

You've got an impressive list there, Matt1. I hope that at some point you can feel comfortable coming back and being a regular member of this board and keep us updated on the hoops (and football) at whatever excellent institution you attend.

[hurleyfor3]

Wow, that's a lot of schools. I applied to six back in the fall of 1988 and that was considered a lot back then. There wasn't a common app back then though, not for most of the top 20 or so private schools. If money were no object (and I realize it is usually a HUGE object) I'd pick Tulane. New Orleans is like nowhere else in the world and Tulane is in a nice part of it.

I didn't get into the school to which I applied early, either. As others have mentioned, I was rolled into the regular pool, but also allowed to send them an additional essay -- the admissions office told my counselor they didn't like my first essay. It didn't help; I got rejected in the regular pool too. (So the school wasn't Duke. How I ended up at Duke was quite a convoluted process, but I did get to see two national championships, so no complaining here.)

I'm probably the last person in the world who should be giving advice on stuff like this, but college is always and everywhere what you make of it.

[77devil]

Not sure if it's still the same, but it used to be your early application could have three outcomes: accept, reject, or defer to the regular admission pool.

That information is probably 15 years old, though.

Still the case for certain as of 2006. I believe it hasn't changed.


Probably many more than can be offered would do well, but it's all a numbers game.


It's a total crap shoot getting into a top school. It's not that you're not "Duke material," it just means you didn't win the admissions lottery.

It's a total numbers game. The Admissions Office ran an exercise with the Board of Visitors years ago. It laid out three applicant files from which you can pick only one. All the candidates were outstanding and totally qualified for admission to Duke. The The numbers are even tougher today.

[YmoBeThere]

At the current pace, a couple of years at Baylor(given the current state of Baylor athletics) would likely push Duke to the back of your mind. I don't know much about Waco as I was an infant when my father attended Baylor for his Masters.

As for Vandy, I know you are still waiting to hear, but I went there for b-school and enjoyed it immensely. Plus, Nashville has placed high in many polls/surveys as an up and coming destination.

[sue71, esq]

At the current pace, a couple of years at Baylor(given the current state of Baylor athletics) would likely push Duke to the back of your mind. I don't know much about Waco as I was an infant when my father attended Baylor for his Masters.

As for Vandy, I know you are still waiting to hear, but I went there for b-school and enjoyed it immensely. Plus, Nashville has placed high in many polls/surveys as an up and coming destination.

I'm not knocking Baylor, because the school itself is very nice (campus, buildings, etc), but Waco... ehhhhhhh. At least 10 years ago it was nothing. Nothing there. Far from major cities. Don't drink the water, and all that.

[matt1]

Thank you to everyone for the advice and words. I have no idea what will happen, but I probably like Vandy and Richmond a bit better than Penn in terms of fit, but Wharton would be tough to pass up on the off chance that I actually get in there. If I get into one of those three, it is likely going to be one of them, unless I take one of the scholarships (the most likely one would be Alabama if I like it when I tour in a couple of weeks, but Kentucky would be in the mix if I did not hate their basketball team). I also hear this week about a full scholarship from Tulane, so that is very much a possibility (maybe even so without it). All the schools that I listed have some degree of a chance, though, so it should be an interesting couple of months.

Anyway, my new level of Duke fandom seems to be that I am happy that they are blowing out GT, but I am not glued to my TV to see it. But, the Carolina and Syracuse games will be different! When did Marshall start getting so much playing time, because he was hardly playing before my hiatus and has since then?

[throatybeard]

As some of you may remember, I posted on the Longest Thread Ever back in December after Duke had rejected me Early Decision. Today, as I am writing this, is my first time back on this board in over two months, because it is the first time that I feel as if I have something meaningful to say about the process. After I was rejected, I said to myself and my family that I was done caring about Duke sports, which had pretty much been my life to that point.

That was what I needed at the time, and I refused to watch the next few basketball games (mostly cupcakes, except the one against UCLA). However, I would always find myself checking the scores online. The first game, I was not sure who I even wanted to win, but, by the second game, I wanted them to win, but I did not care enough (or, more accurately, was too angry) to watch.

The first Duke sporting event that I did watch was the Chick-fil-A Bowl against Texas A&M. Strangely, I really did not feel bad watching the football game, but that is because my allegiance to the football team was newer, even though it was strong the last couple of years. I was rooting for Duke, but, you have to admit that that was an incredible game.

A few days later, I tried watching the basketball game against Notre Dame, but I found it too tough to watch for more than a minute or two at a time. With each game that passed, it became slightly easier to watch, until I finally watched the whole second half and overtime of the Syracuse game without having to change the channel. However, it still is a challenge to watch home games, as seeing the Cameron Crazies reminds me how I should have been one of them. Hopefully, time will ease that as well.

As for what my future holds, I am not yet sure where I will be next year. To this point, Duke remains my only rejection to go along with five acceptances, to Tulane, Alabama, Oklahoma, Kentucky, and Baylor. The last four of those are offering me full scholarships, but I still am waiting on many of my more selective regular decision schools, with my top three being Vanderbilt, Richmond, and Penn. I also am considering Miami, Bucknell, Drexel, South Carolina, and Davidson.

I am not ready to be on here regularly yet, but, in advance of Thursday: GO TO HELL, CAROLINA!!

Thank you,
Matt

I really appreciate your posting this, and I think it reifies the demographic pressure the Millennials are under.

People my age (37) and older are all like, woo, you got into Duke? But they don't know how easy I had it. I saw stats. In 1993, 70% (!!!!!!) of alumni kid/early decisions were accepted. (My mama went to the Women's College in 1959-63). Because it was easier to get in back in the 1990s, I'm kind of like Duke Schmuke when randoms my age are like, wow, you went to Duke. But for folks in your position, it is so much harder. And I know that. X was a smaller generation than y'all's generation. And there has been a rising tide of people applying to all sorts of places. And the Boomers had the benefit of a blasting economy.

In 2007, I was lucky enough to get a job at a research university that probably most of y'all have never heard of. It's all about research, but we don't play big sports, so no one knows the school exists. If you're TT faculty, and you don't publish, you WILL get fired. On the student side, we get a lot of our students from the CC system, and still we reject something like 50% of our applicants. We're like the third choice in StL after WashU and SLU, and we still reject a bunch of people. That's how much harder it has gotten.

Duke has gotten a ton harder to get into for undergrad in the last 20 years. So has everywhere. What is it Slim Charles says in S3 of The Wire? "The game the same. It just got more fierce."

The snobbery needs to stop. I hope our young friend, the OP, finds a good situation. And I understand how the OP felt hurt. I would have lost my [expletive] if I didn't get into Duke in 1993. Here's how ignorant I was. My safety schools were regular decision (!) Yale, Brown, and Swarthmore. I mean, seriously. I hope the OP keeps up with us in sports, but if not, I understand. Sports aren't that important.

You know what, you could be a really good student and not get into UNC and end up at App State. And you know what, they know what they're doing up there in Boone. They have amazing faculty. I bet the OP ends up at somewhere "more prestigious" than that, but I'm sure the faculty will be amazing no matter where the OP ends up.

[JasonEvans]

Matt,

I am quite sympathetic to your situation. My son, who (shockingly) is a lifelong Duke fan, is a junior in high school and is looking at colleges. We came over the summer and checked out Duke. We all loved it (another shock) but we know that the reality is that he is a longshot to get in.

He gets almost all As (5 or 6 As and 1 B per semester) taking the most demanding course load possible (he actually takes accelerated math a year ahead, so he is taking AP Calc as a junior). He is very active in the community and has a great interest in the law and politics (internships with some of the most important politicians in the state of Georgia). He came within 1 right answer of getting a perfect score on his math SAT...

...but his English and his writing SATs were "only" 600 and 610. He still has hopes to pull them up, but we know he likely would need to pull them up by 50+ points each to really have a shot at Duke. Plus the lone B that he gets each semester (usually in English) means his grades are not straight As. It seems harsh to say so, but we think Duke is off the table for him.

I write all this to point out that Duke is really, really, really hard to get into these days. Like the top tier Ivy schools, you need to be perfect in school and have done remarkable things outside of school.

But, my son is perfectly fine with that. He has found other schools -- Haverford, John Hopkins, Lafayette, Tufts, and others -- that match his desire for a smaller school with a strong science/engineering focus. The way the college application process has become at the top schools, you can't really predict where you are going to be accepted and you have to understand that these schools are inundated with tons of applications from incredibly qualified kids.

I told my son as we were visiting schools over the summer that it is not that some of these elite schools reject you, it is that they find a reason to accept someone else. I am sure you would do very well at Duke or whatever school you get into. Duke did not fell you were not right for them. They merely found other students that they felt were a little bit more right. I hope that makes sense and I wish you tons of luck in this very difficult process!

-Jason "I can't imagine I would get into Duke today -- it was a different place in the mid-late 80s" Evans

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

An interesting thread, thanks for posting. I had a similar experience back in the mid 90s in that Duke was the one school where I wasn't accepted. Looking at the list of schools, you'll be more than fine, congratulations.

As far as the Duke fandom question, I don't think my love of Duke basketball was ever compromised. I think the trick is to separate your love for Duke sports from the university itself. Also, you can continue to root for Duke while attending another school (easier if it's not an ACC school). I know several diehard Duke fans who even attended UNC. You don't have to follow anyone else's path, make your own.

A couple more thoughts, you may have to be a closet Duke fan if you want any friends at UK. Good luck with Vanderbilt, it's a great school and Nashville is hard to beat (Go Dores!).

[sue71, esq]

My son, who (shockingly) is a lifelong Duke fan, is a junior in high school and is looking at colleges.

Your son is a high school junior??? :eek:

[JasonEvans]

Your son is a high school junior??? :eek:

Yup. I am Duke class of '89. Are you surprised that I am that old or that young?

-Jason "my other son is a high school freshman" Evans

[weezie]

matt, thanks for keeping us in the loop. You've got some great choices there, and best of all, you're going to college this August!
Scholarships too!
Wow, I am seriously impressed! :D

[sue71, esq]

Yup. I am Duke class of '89. Are you surprised that I am that old or that young?

-Jason "my other son is a high school freshman" Evans

I vaguely recall you mentioning when you graduated. I guess just based on what you've said about your kids and pics on FB, maybe I thought they were still boys. Or hoping they were because when everyone freezes their age, my age freezes, too. (If that makes sense.) :cool:

[DukieInKansas]

I vaguely recall you mentioning when you graduated. I guess just based on what you've said about your kids and pics on FB, maybe I thought they were still boys. Or hoping they were because when everyone freezes their age, my age freezes, too. (If that makes sense.) :cool:

Sue - you have that wrong. Other people's kids get older but we don't.

[sagegrouse]

At the current pace, a couple of years at Baylor(given the current state of Baylor athletics) would likely push Duke to the back of your mind. I don't know much about Waco as I was an infant when my father attended Baylor for his Masters.

As for Vandy, I know you are still waiting to hear, but I went there for b-school and enjoyed it immensely. Plus, Nashville has placed high in many polls/surveys as an up and coming destination.

Here are the lyrics from the Jerry Jeff Walker version of the country classic, "Is Anyone Going to San Antone?"

Is anybody goin to San Antone
Or Pheonix Arizona
Anyplace is alright as long as I
Don't have to go to Waco

[cspan37421]

Matt,

I am quite sympathetic to your situation. My son, who (shockingly) is a lifelong Duke fan, is a junior in high school and is looking at colleges. We came over the summer and checked out Duke. We all loved it (another shock) but we know that the reality is that he is a longshot to get in.

He gets almost all As (5 or 6 As and 1 B per semester) taking the most demanding course load possible (he actually takes accelerated math a year ahead, so he is taking AP Calc as a junior). He is very active in the community and has a great interest in the law and politics (internships with some of the most important politicians in the state of Georgia). He came within 1 right answer of getting a perfect score on his math SAT...

...but his English and his writing SATs were "only" 600 and 610. He still has hopes to pull them up, but we know he likely would need to pull them up by 50+ points each to really have a shot at Duke. Plus the lone B that he gets each semester (usually in English) means his grades are not straight As. It seems harsh to say so, but we think Duke is off the table for him.

I write all this to point out that Duke is really, really, really hard to get into these days. Like the top tier Ivy schools, you need to be perfect in school and have done remarkable things outside of school.

But, my son is perfectly fine with that. He has found other schools -- Haverford, John Hopkins, Lafayette, Tufts, and others -- that match his desire for a smaller school with a strong science/engineering focus. The way the college application process has become at the top schools, you can't really predict where you are going to be accepted and you have to understand that these schools are inundated with tons of applications from incredibly qualified kids.

I told my son as we were visiting schools over the summer that it is not that some of these elite schools reject you, it is that they find a reason to accept someone else. I am sure you would do very well at Duke or whatever school you get into. Duke did not fell you were not right for them. They merely found other students that they felt were a little bit more right. I hope that makes sense and I wish you tons of luck in this very difficult process!

-Jason "I can't imagine I would get into Duke today -- it was a different place in the mid-late 80s" Evans


Yes, Jason is right - it was a different place then, because they let in people like us!! I too was Class of 1989. [I have one in college already & one a high school basketball player, and I didn't exactly start a family right away either.]

Matt, I'd like to echo what Jason said and add a little bit of my own, since I'm active in the AAAC (admissions interviews process).

In the several years I've been interviewing, I've seen kids inexplicably turned away or waitlisted at Duke - kids that I thought were the most amazing young people I've ever met. It's come close to embittering me, but I have to remember a few things. One is that the interview is maybe the 7th most important part of the application, and I don't tend to see much if anything about the other 6 (GPA, curriculum, standardized test scores, teacher recommendations, essay, extracurriculars). So my gut feelings of injustice are based on too little information. Also, as Jason said, one has to consider the entire applicant pool. It's an embarrassment of riches these days - the pool is so strong, if they reversed the news for the 3000 they accept with the second 3000 on the list, the average test scores and GPAs would probably not even change. What might change? I don't know. Accomplishments? Maybe one kid founded a startup company, and another didn't? Maybe one kid plays trumpet and the band needs some trumpet players? One kid is a first-generation college student and another is not? etc.

Just remember, the cream tends to rise to the top over time no matter where you go to school. In my own field, I worked with some colleagues who went to far less selective schools, but if they performed well at their job relative to the ones from exclusive schools, they were promoted faster and paid better in very short order (within a couple years at most, salary differences based on college disappeared). Now, that's just one data point, and I do think you may often get the benefit of the doubt about your intellectual abilities if you go to a very selective school versus a less selective (or less well-known) one. But that's just a foot-in-the-door thing, it's what you do after you walk through the door that matters. Now, I can't speak for places that would refuse to look at someone unless they went to a school as selective as Duke or more so. I'm not sure I'd want to work at such a place.

Another thing you ought to know, Matt, is that recent research has found evidence that students who are accepted at a more exclusive private school (Vandy, Richmond, Penn, in your case) but end up taking a state school scholarship, they tend to do just as well financially (over time) as those who pass on the scholarship and pay full freight to the more exclusive school. That's not to say everything is equal (perhaps no Cameron Crazy experience), but the early evidence is that the career earnings are. Wherever you go, though, don't look back - make the place your own, build an intellectual and social home there, and my guess is that later in life, you cannot imagine having missed out on what you experience just to paint yourself blue and scream your head off for Duke basketball. Yes, it's fun - but so are a lot of things in life. You can still cheer on the blue devils from afar. Maybe not as a student, but maybe as an admirer of Coach K, or the colorful full history of the program etc. Grad school is always a possibility too. And don't forget, many people work at Duke who didn't attend school there. There are many ways to be part of the Duke community.

w/r/t the 70%, wow, I'd not seen that. I don't think I was quite doing AAAC stuff then, but I was just a few years later. Some numbers from a couple years ago suggested to me that the benefit of being in the Duke family (e.g., child of alum/s) did improve one's chances of getting in, but only by a small amount, nothing large enough to turn something inherently unlikely into something with better than 50/50 odds in your favor, even for someone applying early decision. I want to cite the number, but I can't recall if it was expressed confidentially or not. Regardless, it was probably an overall average that varied with the degree of involvement (meaning, an active volunteer and/or a regular donor to the university, preferably both. Not just something anyone with some relation to Duke would get ... I don't know that for sure, but I would think it would be the case.)

Best wishes to you. You will do fine!

[Channing]

Matt,

I know you didn't ask my advice, but that has never stopped me before. Also, bear in mind that I obviously have no idea what your personal financial situation or family situation is. However, you have an impressive list of high quality schools that are offering you a full scholarship. Regardless of whether you are anticipating grad school (and perhaps especially if you are anticipating grad school) I would recommend strongly considering perhaps a lower "ranked" school for the financial flexibility it will afford. I can't tell you how many of my Duke classmates are saddled with overwhelming debt. Some of those who were lucky enough to have parents who could pay their full tuition have lamented that they wish they had that $150,000 to help them catapult their life.

I am a lawyer and the partner I work for went to the local state school for free while I went to Duke. While Duke may offer some added opportunities on Wall Street, if you are successful at any college you will be well positioned moving into the work force. I know that is not the easiest to understand, but from my vantage point, it is very true.

All that said, if you went back and told this to 18 year old Channing he would have laughed in your face, and I thoroughly enjoyed every minute I spent at Duke. However, given today's job market and economic climate, a free education is an incredible opportunity and will put you out way ahead of most colleagues; you will have significant financial flexibility making it easier for (the royal) you to buy your first house or reach a point where you are financially comfortable enough to have your first child.

Anyway, just my .02.

[Reisen]

I think this might also be an appropriate place to point out that while Duke is a great school, it is by no means perfect. Just by size alone, your experience may vary considerably based on the classes you take, and the professors you get.

Duke has some great profs, no doubt about it. But I've met profs at William & Mary, and Georgetown, who I would put up against any prof at Duke. Further, many of Duke's great profs either also teach at other schools, previously taught at other schools, or leave to teach at other schools. As an example, I really liked Lori Leachman (Econ prof and Peter Lange's wife), but prior to Duke she taught at Northern Arizona University. It's not like these top profs spend their entire careers only at top-ranked schools. Just as students have gotten more competitive, so, too, have their instructors.

I also felt like I encountered some pretty lousy support in certain areas while an undergrad at Duke, one of which was career counseling / support.

My point is not to bash Duke, only that there is a lot of parity in higher education, at least so far as it pertains to the actual classroom experience and outcomes. Facilities, brand, networking, access to employers, etc, I'll admit that can vary considerably.

With my own daughter, I wouldn't blink if she wanted to attend a good public institution or some place like a Haverford or Middlebury, although I might encourage her to apply to a top graduate school afterwards.

[willywoody]

I don't understand Matt1's list of schools. They are all over the place.

Take the money and run. In my opinion, you should not even consider a school that doesn't give you a scholarship if you have that many offers already. The only concession I'd make is if there was a major that really interested you at the other schools, and even then I'd be positive that was going to be my major before giving up the money. I was fortunate enough to have undergrad and most of graduate school payed by my family, but if I had been offered a free ride at another school, I doubt I'd be on a Duke board typing unwanted advice today.

[brevity]

College life is extremely expensive, even with a full scholarship. At the risk of sounding like the world's most clichéd toastmaster, Webster's Dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stipend) defines "stipend" in a way that tells you it's not enough money. In truth, there is economic diversity on every campus, but there will be times where it feels like everyone has more money than you. Usually this happens when some standard lifestyle expense comes up, and all your friends duly pay it, leaving you alone to question why this expense even exists. Welcome to college.

I am older than several people who have small children, and they are still paying off education debt. This influences a great number of their budgetary decisions. Fortunately, I don't identify; like those upthread, I would be an unexceptional college candidate today, but was pretty hot stuff back then. And I would add that the financial aid offices of both college and graduate school moved mountains to make my education possible. They maximized my grant-to-loan ratio, and I was able to pay off my education a lot more easily and quickly than others.

This money talk is not the most fun way to talk about college, but I think you posted this to DBR because you wanted the collective opinion of those who wish they knew then what they know now. I remember both pluses and minuses to my undergraduate experience, so I do sometimes wonder if turning down a full scholarship elsewhere was a good idea.

Oh, and I frequently visited a relative going to Kentucky for graduate school. Lexington is an amazing, small-scale but cosmopolitan city. But be warned that its two biggest sports are the UK basketball season and the UK basketball offseason. There is no escaping it. And I don't know much about Tulane, though I've driven through its barely demarcated campus and remain unimpressed.

[cspan37421]

I don't understand Matt1's list of schools. They are all over the place.



I see some geographic commonalities. All are either:

a) in the south (broadly defined, granted), or
b) in Pennsylvania (2 of 3 in the Philly area).

They do vary considerably by size.

He may have family connections at some schools or in some locales that led to his including them on his list.

[matt1]

My seemingly confusing list is a result of different periods of adding colleges to it. Let me try to explain how I arrived with this list and where I stand on the different schools right now.

Initially, my goal was to try to get into a top-tier school. Back in my sophmore year, I was fairly naive about this and figured that I would find a #1, apply there ED, get in, and it would all be over. I comprised my list of just about every well-known private school east of the Mississippi River (I knew that I didn't want to go out west). My first college visits were to Duke and Davidson the summer after my sophomore year, and I felt like I really liked both. After also touring Vanderbilt and loving it, I was beginning to worry that I would just like everything, but then, I visited Emory. I felt like there was no school spirit and no one really loved being there. I would not realize this for a couple more years, but this would be a sign that I would not really like many smaller colleges (while Emory is not necessarily small, it does only have D3 sports).

By this point, I had also eliminated anything in a cold climate (defined by me as anything north of New York City). My next trip was to Haverford College, which, in addition to lacking school spirit, made me start thinking about another thing, politics, in my school search. I know that DBR bans political discussion, so I will not get into it, but suffice it to say that it was too liberal for me.

Next, I toured a pair of Ivies, in Penn and Princeton. I really expected both to be near the top of my list, but I wound up liking Penn, but hating Princeton, as it felt like people there were overly immersed in school work (to the exclusion of all other activities). For the next couple months, I would always say that my top four was Duke, Davidson, Vanderbilt, and Penn, in no particular order. Late that fall, I went up to Bucknell, expecting to not really like it, but I was pleasantly surprised with the campus and the programs that it offered. The big negative was how rural it is.

My search would continue, and I would add Richmond to the list to make the "Top Six", which would last for all of one day before I toured Duke again and made it my clear #1. I also liked William & Mary enough to plan to apply there, though I never would. I really thought that my list was done, and that Richmond and Bucknell would be my safety schools. I am really glad that I did not do that (a college admissions simulator has me as a 74% chance of acceptance at Richmond and a 58% one at Bucknell). Sometime over the summer, I decided that Tulane would also be a good fit and added it to my list.

When I went back to school in September, my college counselor told me that I was a National Merit Semifinalist (I now am a Finalist), something that I thought was nice, but I did not yet understand the impact that it would have on my search. My goal for the time being was to try to decide a second-choice between Richmond, Penn, and Vanderbilt, which had separated themselves from the pack in my mind. However, I always thought that I would get into Duke. In October (2013), I toured Richmond and Penn and decided that, while Penn has greater prestige (especially for Wharton), Richmond was a better fit, as they have an excellent program in International Business, a great community, a beautiful campus, and good enough sports. I said at the time that I would apply EDII to Richmond in the unlikely event that I would be rejected outright by Duke (I know that hubris sets up a fall, which would be coming).

Two months later, I went into Decision Day nervous, but excited, as I honestly did expect to celebrate that night. I had even already made celebration dinner reservations! Decisions were to be released at 6:00 PM, and I logged onto my portal a few minutes before that only to see a letter on the screen. As I read it, it became apparent that it was a rejection letter, but I reassured myself that it was only a cover and that the real (acceptance) letter would appear at 6:00. But, of course, it never did! That night, I was thinking that I now had to choose where to go for one year before trying to transfer to Duke (I now plan to go wherever I go for four years, but possibly try to get a MBA at Fuqua).

The week after my rejection brought two strange developments. First, I was deferred EA (non-binding) from Tulane, which I had been told was a complete safety school. I was considering adding Rhodes College in Memphis and Franklin & Marshall (in Lancaster, PA) to my list as further safeties, and this made me definitely want to do this, though I would not apply at this time. Later that week, I got a letter from Oklahoma detailing their National Merit scholarship, which is a full-ride plus a few stipends, totaling $116,200. I kind of laughed it off at first, but then began to consider it more seriously as time passed.

Around Christmas, I began to look into whether any other reputable schools also offered those types of scholarships. I was very intrigued by South Carolina, which is ranked as the #1 school in the country for International Business. However, the school's application deadline had already passed, so my application will only be "considered if space is available". When I told my college counselor that I would apply to South Carolina and Oklahoma, in addition to Miami, which my dad wanted me to apply to (but now seems like a reasonable possibility), I expected her to be confused, but she instead recommended that I look at Alabama, which offers an even larger scholarship than Oklahoma does, and which she has always been impressed with. They also have a very strong honors college (with automatic admission to National Merit Finalists), which makes it feel smaller.

I was now unsure about applying anywhere else, including Rhodes and Franklin & Marshall, up until their application deadlines. On January 15th (the deadlines for many schools), I looked through everything to make sure that I was not overlooking any school. My mom really liked a program at Kentucky and Drexel (both schools offer full scholarships to National Merit Finalists), and I caved in and applied to both, even though I had big concerns about both schools. For UK, I thought that I could not bring myself to root for their basketball team (the only thing harder would have been Carolina); for Drexel, my worry was that it does not have a traditional campus or school community (as students are on and off campus for co-ops). I did go through with applying to Rhodes and F&M as well. Late that night, wanting something else, I, on a whim, applied to Baylor, which also offers a full scholarship to National Merit Finalists.

Soon after that, I went to tour Drexel and F&M. While I still do have those concerns about Drexel, I was very impressed with the school itself (it has a good, internationally focused business school) with great job preparation. To be clear, I am definitely willing to study Econ and Spanish at a college with a good reputation for having those programs lead to what I want (ex. Duke and Vandy) or partake in a separate business school. F&M wound up being my last straw for small liberal arts colleges. They just tend to not have the same opportunities or student life as medium and large universities. Richmond definitely feels big enough, but it feels bigger than most colleges of 4000 undergrads. Anyway, I decided to stop considering Rhodes and slightly lower Davidson (which has a great community and great traditions) as a result of that visit. There may also be a too big, but I have not yet toured any of the big state schools. I am going to Alabama this Saturday, so I should have a better idea after that.

If anyone is still reading this, I have a lot of choices to make, as I, to use basketball metaphors, loaded my schedule with cupcakes. I now have an acceptance at Drexel to go with the other five that I had mentioned. My top three are Vanderbilt, Richmond, and Penn, possibly in that order, although it is not firm at all right now. I also really like Tulane (where I have since been accepted after the deferral) on paper, and Alabama seems like the best bet of the National Merit schools, but I have to see both of them. After that, it really is jumbled and unclear. Anyway, it has been a fun search with, when all is said and done, close to 30 college visits, and lots of decisions.

Matt

[YmoBeThere]

Re: Fuqua

My experience is that b-schools have a very different feel from undergrad, so keep that in mind. That could be because I went a little later(8 years working) and came from manufacturing rather than the consulting/i-banking path of so many I met touring schools. Those paths may have changed a bit since my time 13/14 years ago.

[DukieInKansas]

Matt1 - just know that if you end up at Oklahoma, you do have someone willing to serve as an substitute aunt 1 state north should you need anything. I could even ignore the fact that it is Oklahoma. ;)

[throatybeard]

My next trip was to Haverford College, which, in addition to lacking school spirit, made me start thinking about another thing, politics, in my school search. I know that DBR bans political discussion, so I will not get into it, but suffice it to say that it was too liberal for me.

Most places will probably be "too liberal" for you then, seeing as how this is higher education and few conservatives go to work higher ed, except in a few fields like Econ and Poly Sci. So too would Duke.

If this is a problem for you, I suggest a big state school in a red state. OU sounds like the ticket. The student body in particular will be very conservative, especially the whiter end of it.

[Jim3k]

Most places will probably be "too liberal" for you then, seeing as how this is higher education and few conservatives go to work higher ed, except in a few fields like Econ and Poly Sci. So too would Duke.

If this is a problem for you, I suggest a big state school in a red state. OU sounds like the ticket. The student body in particular will be very conservative, especially the whiter end of it.


I don't really disagee with Throaty, Matt, but with regard to the 'liberal v. conservative' meme, I think you are allowing it too much authority in your decision-making. You will certainly find that to be true when it comes to the curriculum. The first two years of college, no matter where, are pretty much the same. Basic stuff, foundational stuff--English lit, math, history, a first year science. Sometimes all falling under the rubric of general education. There is nothing particularly liberal or conservative about any of that. And oddly, you may discover that the instructors do not want you to think for yourself during those years (despite their entreaties that you do so). In that case, you'd want to hold back your opinions anyway, assuming the instructors actually wanted any. (Remember, they're only teaching basics, sometimes from a cookbook.)

When you get to the upper division, you will declare a major. Nothing particularly liberal or conservative about that either. Now, however, depending on your major--if in liberal arts--your opinion (i.e., your analytic skills) will come to the fore. But the profs will not care what your opinion is, so long as you back it with facts and write well and persuasively about it. That's not a concern in any of the science majors. There, you just gotta have a good memory, some higher math and the desire to inculcate it into brain.

You mentioned wanting to be a business major and spoke highly of Wharton and Fuqua. Neither, of course, is available to an undergraduate. If you want to major in business as an undergraduate, by all means, head to a state megaversity. But if you want to be exposed to a broader array of thinking, hold off your business studies until graduate school and allow yourself comfortable surroundings.

As for the liberal or conservative views of your fellow students, you'll probably find that the differences are not a big deal. You may find that discussions with your fellows which call for opinions, to be lively and worthwhile. Don't assume that your conservative views will always prevail; likewise, do not assume that the liberal views will always prevail. You don't have to win or lose; just listen and see if a view contrary to yours is persuasive. If you actually become educated--and think analytically about all things--you will discover that the views you carried to college will have changed when you leave. That's true for everyone, whether they start out 'liberal' or 'conservative.' It's part of the maturation process. The main question will always be: Do your facts fit your opinion or do you allow your opinion to shape your facts? If the latter, then college will have been a waste.

Don't forget to ask yourself what sort of academic challenges do I look forward to? Then, go where you think you will enjoy your environs or where the there is worthwhile financial assistance--be it megaversity or minicollege.

Socially, you will find your own friends and they will find you. Moreover, your fellow students will be a mix of some sort (race, politics, sexual orientation). Give them all a chance. Remember, they will be undergoing the same maturation process you are. If you give the process a chance to succeed, it will. None of you will be the same person you were when you arrived.

[cspan37421]

You mentioned wanting to be a business major and spoke highly of Wharton and Fuqua. Neither, of course, is available to an undergraduate.


Great post by Jim3k, but this snippet is incorrect. Wharton does have an undergraduate program, as well as their well-known MBA program. See:

http://www.wharton.upenn.edu/undergrad/

And at Duke, up to 6 credits in a Duke professional school may count* toward the 34 needed to graduate. Of course, you probably need special approval to get into those courses, but the degree requirements for Trinity specifically note this fact.


* in most cases they do not count toward the general education requirements (areas of knowledge/modes of inquiry, aka distributional requirements).

I'll echo something else he says - I would strongly advise against choosing a school based on whether they're reputed to be conservative or liberal. One ideal of university is to test ideas in the crucible of critical inquiry, evidence, and reason. You are not well served by seeking out an echo chamber. If you do, you will be ill-prepared for the diversity of the world. This is not to suggest a false equivalence of competing ideas; for instance, if you were planning to study physics, you need not search for a school that has at least one expert in "intelligent falling" as an alternative to the theory of gravity. But there is plenty of diversity of rational and empiricist views in the middle 99.9%, ignoring the lunatic fringes. Nearly all decent schools make a point of hiring people from different points of view. I'd be shocked if any of the schools on your list lacked econ faculty with expertise on Keynes or Hayek. The statistics dept will have Bayesians and Frequentists. Etc.

And since you mentioned international business, I'm sure you're aware that there's quite a diversity of economic systems around the world, a broader spectrum than we even see if we contrasted our most blue state with our most red state.

[Reisen]

I don't really disagee with Throaty, Matt, but with regard to the 'liberal v. conservative' meme, I think you are allowing it too much authority in your decision-making. You will certainly find that to be true when it comes to the curriculum. The first two years of college, no matter where, are pretty much the same. Basic stuff, foundational stuff--English lit, math, history, a first year science. Sometimes all falling under the rubric of general education. There is nothing particularly liberal or conservative about any of that. And oddly, you may discover that the instructors do not want you to think for yourself during those years (despite their entreaties that you do so). In that case, you'd want to hold back your opinions anyway, assuming the instructors actually wanted any. (Remember, they're only teaching basics, sometimes from a cookbook.)

When you get to the upper division, you will declare a major. Nothing particularly liberal or conservative about that either. Now, however, depending on your major--if in liberal arts--your opinion (i.e., your analytic skills) will come to the fore. But the profs will not care what your opinion is, so long as you back it with facts and write well and persuasively about it. That's not a concern in any of the science majors. There, you just gotta have a good memory, some higher math and the desire to inculcate it into brain.

You mentioned wanting to be a business major and spoke highly of Wharton and Fuqua. Neither, of course, is available to an undergraduate. If you want to major in business as an undergraduate, by all means, head to a state megaversity. But if you want to be exposed to a broader array of thinking, hold off your business studies until graduate school and allow yourself comfortable surroundings.

As for the liberal or conservative views of your fellow students, you'll probably find that the differences are not a big deal. You may find that discussions with your fellows which call for opinions, to be lively and worthwhile. Don't assume that your conservative views will always prevail; likewise, do not assume that the liberal views will always prevail. You don't have to win or lose; just listen and see if a view contrary to yours is persuasive. If you actually become educated--and think analytically about all things--you will discover that the views you carried to college will have changed when you leave. That's true for everyone, whether they start out 'liberal' or 'conservative.' It's part of the maturation process. The main question will always be: Do your facts fit your opinion or do you allow your opinion to shape your facts? If the latter, then college will have been a waste.

Don't forget to ask yourself what sort of academic challenges do I look forward to? Then, go where you think you will enjoy your environs or where the there is worthwhile financial assistance--be it megaversity or minicollege.

Socially, you will find your own friends and they will find you. Moreover, your fellow students will be a mix of some sort (race, politics, sexual orientation). Give them all a chance. Remember, they will be undergoing the same maturation process you are. If you give the process a chance to succeed, it will. None of you will be the same person you were when you arrived.

This is a great post. I was going to jump on the Wharton undergrad thing (my boss' daughter attends there), but cspan beat me to it.

The undergraduate business school could be an important thing if you're interested in it. I applied to Pratt, then switched to econ after the first year (like about a third of the Pratt class does each year). One disappointment I had in Trinity was, as a liberal arts college, the lack of business classes. The econ department would slip a few through (and probably still does), but stuff like accounting had been drastically cut over the years. Maybe it's come back in the 12 years since I graduated?

Compare that to places like Wharton, Mason (W&M, where my father in law teaches) and McDonough (Georgetown, where I got my MBA). For me personally, I think I would have done well taking undergraduate business courses as a junior and a senior.

Economics is, of course, an important part of business school, but just one. Marketing courses, financial modeling courses, negotiations courses, organizational behavior, etc, all might give you an idea what kind of field you'd be interested in going into at graduation.

WRT the liberal / conservative thing, I don't think it's as big a deal as Throaty makes it out to be. Duke has liberal and conservative students. Throaty is right that Duke (and many other elite schools) has more liberal professors (in most departments, with the exceptions he noted), but unless you're planning on majoring in women's studies, African American studies, cultural anthropology, etc, most of your classes will probably be fairly apolitical. Granted, I majored in econ, but thinking back, my world religion classes didn't have a strong political angle, nor did my English classes, my German classes, any of the science classes, history, etc. I took a handful of classes (including in all three of the fields I mentioned above) that definitely did. I loved the public policy, AAS, and Nicholas school of the Environment classes. The CA classes were "just ok", and were on obscure subject material. The one women's studies class was the only one where I felt it was not worthwhile, and I dropped it.

Where you may be on to something, would be if you're applying to a school where you don't feel the student body is a good fit. I visited Reed College, in Oregon, and definitely got that vibe. I've heard good things about Haverford, but have no direct experience myself.

[FerryFor50]

This is a great post. I was going to jump on the Wharton undergrad thing (my boss' daughter attends there), but cspan beat me to it.

The undergraduate business school could be an important thing if you're interested in it. I applied to Pratt, then switched to econ after the first year (like about a third of the Pratt class does each year). One disappointment I had in Trinity was, as a liberal arts college, the lack of business classes. The econ department would slip a few through (and probably still does), but stuff like accounting had been drastically cut over the years. Maybe it's come back in the 12 years since I graduated?

Compare that to places like Wharton, Mason (W&M, where my father in law teaches) and McDonough (Georgetown, where I got my MBA). For me personally, I think I would have done well taking undergraduate business courses as a junior and a senior.

Economics is, of course, an important part of business school, but just one. Marketing courses, financial modeling courses, negotiations courses, organizational behavior, etc, all might give you an idea what kind of field you'd be interested in going into at graduation.

WRT the liberal / conservative thing, I don't think it's as big a deal as Throaty makes it out to be. Duke has liberal and conservative students. Throaty is right that Duke (and many other elite schools) has more liberal professors (in most departments, with the exceptions he noted), but unless you're planning on majoring in women's studies, African American studies, cultural anthropology, etc, most of your classes will probably be fairly apolitical. Granted, I majored in econ, but thinking back, my world religion classes didn't have a strong political angle, nor did my English classes, my German classes, any of the science classes, history, etc. I took a handful of classes (including in all three of the fields I mentioned above) that definitely did. I loved the public policy, AAS, and Nicholas school of the Environment classes. The CA classes were "just ok", and were on obscure subject material. The one women's studies class was the only one where I felt it was not worthwhile, and I dropped it.

Where you may be on to something, would be if you're applying to a school where you don't feel the student body is a good fit. I visited Reed College, in Oregon, and definitely got that vibe. I've heard good things about Haverford, but have no direct experience myself.

All you need to do is take a look at the list of "distinguished alumni" to see the range of political beliefs Duke has churned out.

Some of the major names? Ron Paul, Elizabeth Dole, Richard Nixon...

It's always good to get a different perspective on things, unless you just would rather listen to people who just agree with you all the time. Doesn't really make you wiser, though.

As for me, I applied to exactly ONE school - NC State. I thought I could possibly get in to Duke, but knew I wouldn't want to pay for it. I picked the more economical choice, stayed a Duke fan and di ok for myself afterwards.

Honestly, you can't really make a wrong decision in undergrad. Lots of good schools out there. It's grad school you have to worry about. :)

[matt1]

I see that the discussion has started to focus itself about my one side note on Haverford. Politics are not important to me because of how the teachers will teach. I just want there to be some (at least a decently-sized minority) of people who agree with me, but I am OK with not having everybody agree with me. I felt that Haverford was more of a problem of having other students more like me there (they also seemed- by in large- to not have much school spirit, and to prefer the arts to sports, etc.).

[Edouble]

Most places will probably be "too liberal" for you then, seeing as how this is higher education and few conservatives go to work higher ed, except in a few fields like Econ and Poly Sci. So too would Duke.

If this is a problem for you, I suggest a big state school in a red state. OU sounds like the ticket. The student body in particular will be very conservative, especially the whiter end of it.

Yep. Even Duke's Republicans work in the adult film industry.

[DukieInKansas]

I see that the discussion has started to focus itself about my one side note on Haverford. Politics are not important to me because of how the teachers will teach. I just want there to be some (at least a decently-sized minority) of people who agree with me, but I am OK with not having everybody agree with me. I felt that Haverford was more of a problem of having other students more like me there (they also seemed- by in large- to not have much school spirit, and to prefer the arts to sports, etc.).

Matt1 - wherever you end up, they will be fortunate to have you! Good luck in the decision making process.

[JasonEvans]

I see that the discussion has started to focus itself about my one side note on Haverford. Politics are not important to me because of how the teachers will teach. I just want there to be some (at least a decently-sized minority) of people who agree with me, but I am OK with not having everybody agree with me. I felt that Haverford was more of a problem of having other students more like me there (they also seemed- by in large- to not have much school spirit, and to prefer the arts to sports, etc.).

My son, who is in love with Haverford, will be thrilled to find out that the school is full of limousine liberals. He will fit right in ;)

-Jason "I could see political leanings of a campus being important at a smaller school. That is one reason we were turned off by Davidson" Evans

[Wander]

Most places will probably be "too liberal" for you then, seeing as how this is higher education and few conservatives go to work higher ed, except in a few fields like Econ and Poly Sci. So too would Duke.

If this is a problem for you, I suggest a big state school in a red state. OU sounds like the ticket. The student body in particular will be very conservative, especially the whiter end of it.

You're jumping to unwarranted conclusions about the OP. It's definitely true that there are not as many conservatives on university faculty except in a few fields like you said. But he didn't say "I need the faculty and student body to be split 50/50 between democrats and republicans." There's a big difference in the political atmosphere of a small liberal arts school in the northeast, like Haverford, vs the average university. Which is fine, I'm not making a personal judgement on that, but from just the political angle, any large state school sounds like it would be fine for the OP, as would all the Ivies, Duke, Vandy, etc.

[sagegrouse]

Unless you are politically active in a committed way, I would not worry about politics on campus. It would not really be an issue except in a couple of extreme cases, IMHO. (Did someone say "Oberlin?") Almost every student body spans the gamut of opinion from Ayn Rand libertarianism to "They're all crooks" to "Corporations should be abolished" to utter and total political apathy. Faculty is faculty -- knee-jerk liberals for the most part, except for Econ and maybe Poli Sci, and whose opinions on matters of public affairs are often completely ridiculous.

Moreover, many people I know totally changed their views once in college; I know I did. Example: the Goldwater-supporting HS student named Hillary Rodham.

[ricks68]

I see that the discussion has started to focus itself about my one side note on Haverford. Politics are not important to me because of how the teachers will teach. I just want there to be some (at least a decently-sized minority) of people who agree with me, but I am OK with not having everybody agree with me. I felt that Haverford was more of a problem of having other students more like me there (they also seemed- by in large- to not have much school spirit, and to prefer the arts to sports, etc.).

Pre-post warning! The opinion posted below may be too blunt for some.

(My edit after re-reading the post: Maybe this should not be considered as being directed to you, personally, but just a way for me to put forth an opinion based on a feeling that you may want to think more about the reasons you are going to college in general)

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but why are you bothering with college at all, considering it appears you may have apparently formed "opinions" that you desire not to change? One of the major reasons for going to college is to learn as much as you can about everything that you are exposed to so that you are able to form more rationally based opinions. If you limit your exposure to the different sides of issues, (and few people with differing opinions from yours) your ability to make rational decisions in the future will be, therefore, affected, and may very likely come back to bite you in the end. Of course, if you continue to surround yourself with mostly those people that agree with you, everything will be hunky-dory--------except you will then be a truly uneducated person, but certainly fit in very well with most of the people in this country.:rolleyes:

The exposure to the politics of the professors is nowhere near as important as what you will learn from interacting with fellow students of different backgrounds, etc.

My "educated" opinion would the same for anyone, no matter which side of the aisle they happen to be on. But then, it's your life. You have the right to limit it any way you desire. And, if that's what you intend to do, take the scholarship money. Otherwise, not only will you be wasting 4 years of your life, you will also be wasting a lot of money.


ricks

[cspan37421]

ricks68 -

that's now how I took Matt's posting at all. I took him to mean that he just wants to avoid situations where he'd be in an extreme minority, which would probably at least include being a conservative at Oberlin or, ironically, a liberal at Liberty. I'm sure there are others which aren't so obvious but still far imbalanced. I don't have an issue with that and I don't think that would be an indication of someone who is closed-minded. It can be distressing to feel so isolated or outcast, and I don't think anyone ought to begrudge him the preference to have at least some minimal level of political diversity on campus.

When DD and I toured Oberlin, one parent brought up the question in the info session, "We hear a lot talk about diversity here. The concept of diversity seems to permeate every facet of life here, except political diversity. What can you say about that?" The response from the admissions person was, more or less, "We have a lot of political diversity. We run the gamut from centrist liberals to Marxist liberals." Then she quipped, "No, actually, we do have a chapter of College Republicans here, believe it or not." - and then she made some condescending remark about how they more or less were ignored as outcasts, and no one could really figure out why they wanted to be at Oberlin. Let me tell you, I don't think that response went over well at all with anyone in the audience, regardless of political stripe.

Some people relish being iconoclastic but I don't think that should be expected of everyone.

[Channing]

Pre-post warning! The opinion posted below may be too blunt for some.

(My edit after re-reading the post: Maybe this should not be considered as being directed to you, personally, but just a way for me to put forth an opinion based on a feeling that you may want to think more about the reasons you are going to college in general)

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but why are you bothering with college at all, considering it appears you may have apparently formed "opinions" that you desire not to change? One of the major reasons for going to college is to learn as much as you can about everything that you are exposed to so that you are able to form more rationally based opinions. If you limit your exposure to the different sides of issues, (and few people with differing opinions from yours) your ability to make rational decisions in the future will be, therefore, affected, and may very likely come back to bite you in the end. Of course, if you continue to surround yourself with mostly those people that agree with you, everything will be hunky-dory--------except you will then be a truly uneducated person, but certainly fit in very well with most of the people in this country.:rolleyes:

The exposure to the politics of the professors is nowhere near as important as what you will learn from interacting with fellow students of different backgrounds, etc.

My "educated" opinion would the same for anyone, no matter which side of the aisle they happen to be on. But then, it's your life. You have the right to limit it any way you desire. And, if that's what you intend to do, take the scholarship money. Otherwise, not only will you be wasting 4 years of your life, you will also be wasting a lot of money.


ricks

As someone (probably someone important once said) once said, you can ignore everything before the "but" in a sentence. Your post has virtually nothing to do with Matt's reasoning (Matt, sorry for speaking for you. If I am wrong, I apologize). Are any thoughts or beliefs formed or developed before arriving at college irrelevant? Is it not possible that a college experience will be enhanced by being around at least a minority of people that share the same beliefs? I don't think he said he was looking for a school that one hundred percent has the same political beliefs as him; just some place that wasn't almost exclusively diametrically opposite to his beliefs.

In fact, even a basic scanning of the posts would have revealed the intention to "I just want there to be some (at least a decently-sized minority) of people who agree with me, but I am OK with not having everybody agree with me."

You (nor I) know Matt, know his beliefs, nor know how important politics are to him and his personal beliefs. I would suggest at least reading his own comments before coming with the righteous indignation. (Again, Matt, sorry for speaking for you).

As to why people go to college ... sure, its to grow as a person, but at its core, it is to position oneself with an education and the credentials to either go on to graduate school or to find a job. In my opinion, anyone who goes to college simply to grow as a person and not to prepare themselves for the real world is wasting their time and, if they are on loans, the governments money.

[matt1]

Here is an update:

I now have 11 acceptances, to Alabama, Baylor, Kentucky, Oklahoma, Tulane, Drexel, South Carolina, Miami, Rhodes, Franklin & Marshall, and Richmond. I still have to hear from Vanderbilt, Penn, and Bucknell, but I should hear from all of them by Friday. I was waitlisted at Davidson, but I will not bother with going through the whole waitlist process.

After a lot of thinking, I have narrowed my list to seven schools, and I will go through what I am thinking about them and mention why I cut a couple of others.

Vanderbilt- I loved the school when I toured it, and it fits perfectly with many of the things that I want (good academics, sports culture, nice campus, but near a city, in the South). I, though, still have to hear whether I got in, and, while we have plenty of money to pay for it, I need to convince my dad that it is worth the investment of $55,000 (I get a $5,000 NMF scholarship) a year to go there.

Penn (Wharton)- To be honest, I am not expecting to get into Wharton, but I will go over my thoughts in case I somehow get in. Wharton has great academics and would give me so many opportunities upon graduation. Also, my dad has no problem with paying for Wharton because of its reputation and location. While he wants me to stay near Philadelphia, I want to get away (all things equal) and go to the South, where I fit in a little better and where it stays warm year round. Also, I feel that I would lose something by not having big sports, but would the Wharton name be enough to override that?

Richmond- I loved the campus, college community, and programs in international business. I like the city of Richmond, but it seems a little difficult to get there from the college. The sports are decent, but not like the major conference schools. But, I definitely did feel at home at Richmond. Also, like Vanderbilt, I may have to convince my dad that Richmond is worth it.

Tulane- I have been accepted into the Honors College and have a $25,000 a year scholarship (plus a little bit for being a NMF). It seems to have the balance between city and campus that I like. Its big questions center around the fact that I have not been there on a tour and whether the party culture of New Orleans is too much for me. My dad is on board with paying for it. I have also applied to the Altman Program, but I will not hear back about that for a few weeks.

Miami- Despite demonstrating little interest over the application period, I was accepted with a $24,000 scholarship and an invitation to interview for a full scholarship. I really do not have a sense of the school, but I will tour when I am there for the interview. I think that it will be in a gray zone until I go for that interview in two weeks.

Alabama- As a NMF, I would receive all of the benefits that they offer to us. When I toured it, I felt that the campus was really nice, and, while big, had most things (even the football stadium!) right on the central quad. The honors college has a great reputation, and they have a ton of money. I really liked Tuscaloosa as well. Strangely, it reminded me of the area of Raleigh where my family is from. I still wonder if there is an academic trade-off to going to Alabama, though.

Kentucky- Many things are similar for Kentucky to Alabama, but there are a few other things for me to consider with it. The campus is really nice, but a bit spread out (not really one central area). Of course, like Alabama, I love the school spirit, and Lexington is great. I am also in the Global Scholars Program, which is great for my interest in International Business. However, the school as a whole has a much lower reputation than even Alabama, and I do not like Kentucky basketball, so that would be something that I would have to overcome.


Some schools that I cut from my list:

Drexel- I can be picky at this point, and I want a real campus and college community (not to mention a football team).
South Carolina- Due to applying late, I cannot get into the honors college right away, and, therefore, am not a direct admit into the International Business program.
Bucknell- A little too isolated and cold
Oklahoma, Baylor- I will not be able to visit them for practical reasons.
F&M, Rhodes- too small, D3 sports

[sue71, esq]

A few questions, so please pardon my ignorance on these things-

First though, congrats on all your acceptances! It sounds like you're doing a good job evaluating them. So before I add my $.02, the questions:

1) What does NMF stand for?
2) Why would your dad be ok with paying for Alabama, but not Vanderbilt or Richmond? Is it because of the $25k scholarship?
3) If you close your eyes, where do you see yourself? First image. Don't think about it or try to rationalize.

[matt1]

A few questions, so please pardon my ignorance on these things-

First though, congrats on all your acceptances! It sounds like you're doing a good job evaluating them. So before I add my $.02, the questions:

1) What does NMF stand for?
2) Why would your dad be ok with paying for Alabama, but not Vanderbilt or Richmond? Is it because of the $25k scholarship?
3) If you close your eyes, where do you see yourself? First image. Don't think about it or try to rationalize.
No problem:

1. National Merit Finalist
2. He is willing to pay for the schools where I have some merit money or the ones he likes enough (any Ivy, Duke, maybe a couple others). I would need to convince him that Vanderbilt (or Richmond) is a good enough school to be worth his money.
3. I don't know. I have a couple visits still to do and a lot to think about. I guess that is why I have until May 1 to decide.

[cspan37421]

Sue71: NMF is probably national merit (scholarship) finalist. Worth a flat $x dollars. I think Matt said $5k.

Hey Matt, thanks for the update. Having sent my DD off to college last year I got a bit of a feel for some of these schools. Just a bit. Here's my 2 cents, and really, that's about what it's worth!

Vanderbilt: Hope you like country music. Not entirely kidding. Vandy definitely has some name recognition, and it's not near a city, it's IN the city. DD and I sat in on a class; we were not impressed with the haughty professor or the un-engaged students. If you are seriously considering it, I encourage you to visit in April and drop in on a class. Now, on admitted students weekend, they'll put on the full-court press of charm, and the features profs/classes might be exemplary. DD did PTY there one summer and she did have a fantastic literature professor, Edward Friedman. But the history class we sat in on (years later), the students were just not into it at all. Minimal contributions/Q&A in class. It seemed few did the reading, or understood it. We spoke the (relatively young) prof afterward, and he was quick to toot his own horn as an example of how Vandy is getting better profs. It kind of turned us off. Vandy is also kind of US News ranking obsessed, and it strikes me as misguided, unnecessary, and unseemly.

Penn: yes, the Wharton name will override all, despite some high-profile convictions and continued investigations into certain Wharton alums. As far as sports, well, it depends. Do you enjoy a well-played game, rooting on people from your own school or people you know, or do you need your sports interests to have national implications/weight? If the former, Penn will do fine - your sports world may be smaller but it will be every bit as enjoyable. If the latter, well, you either have to get over that or take a pass on Wharton. I would get over it. You will get a lot out of a Wharton education. I'm not sure they have a real peer for UG business, though there are other UG business schools.

Tulane: I've heard that reputation, but I don't think you're required to participate. If you think you have low impulse control, you might want to avoid it.

Alabama: We never visited though DD got a full tuition scholarship, and their material seemed to show an unusually pretty campus (spotless buildings, perfectly manicured lawns & flowerbeds etc.) They certainly were willing to throw $$ at smart kids, which is nice. Our understanding was that the campus social life is ruled/dominated by the Greek system, which was a big turnoff for DD. A family friend who went there cautioned against her going too; she was very unhappy as a liberal/progressive, feeling like an outcast in the same way you expressed worry about being an outcast conservative. I would have thought that UA would be big enough for anyone to have a niche, but I suppose if that niche is too small, you feel like an outcast. Anyway it didn't sound very appealing. Keep in mind, we were turned off by Oberlin too, so we avoided extremes. Oh, one other odd thing - the brochures for math, science, and Hon College DD got showed these undergraduate women seriously all dolled up, tons of makeup, fancy clothes, and big hair coiffed like they just came out of the salon (don't get a match near them). That seemed odd and/or unrealistic, and also was a turnoff.

Sorry I don't have more (positive) to say but these were not schools DD chose. Of those you listed she only applied to Alabama, but did spend time/visit Vandy. I have a sister in law who went to Penn; I also worked with a Wharton UG fellow. Both loved it. This time of year, I could count on the latter guy talking about Penn's Final Four appearance in 1979.

[cspan37421]

PS Matt:

with respect to admitted students weekends ....

There's a person to whom I'm related who once cautioned me, "Remember, the marriage is never better than the courtship." Point is, if you go to some of these admitted students weekends, they're courting you, and don't expect the experience to be typical.* It can even be misleading. Put greater weight on your regular visits, on what other students say, on the college guides that aggregate/distill the opinions of many, many students.

* For example, as a scholarship student you might be offered special receptions at which you can meet other scholarship students. They will be bright, charming, and have quite a bit of positive energy. You will come away with amazing new friends. It can be the case sometimes that, in the fall, the supermajority of them will be drinking heavily and more than a few throwing up in your dormitory hallways and staircases. A few will be doing drugs. That's the difference between a chaperoned admitted students weekend and real college life. Fortunately some sober up after they get their first semester grades, and many others eventually grow up. A few never do.

So that's why I say, pay less attention to the courtship, and instead, check out what others who have been there, or who are there, say.

[Mudge]

Sue71: NMF is probably national merit (scholarship) finalist. Worth a flat $x dollars. I think Matt said $5k.

Hey Matt, thanks for the update. Having sent my DD off to college last year I got a bit of a feel for some of these schools. Just a bit. Here's my 2 cents, and really, that's about what it's worth!

Vanderbilt: Hope you like country music. Not entirely kidding. Vandy definitely has some name recognition, and it's not near a city, it's IN the city. DD and I sat in on a class; we were not impressed with the haughty professor or the un-engaged students. If you are seriously considering it, I encourage you to visit in April and drop in on a class. Now, on admitted students weekend, they'll put on the full-court press of charm, and the features profs/classes might be exemplary. DD did PTY there one summer and she did have a fantastic literature professor, Edward Friedman. But the history class we sat in on (years later), the students were just not into it at all. Minimal contributions/Q&A in class. It seemed few did the reading, or understood it. We spoke the (relatively young) prof afterward, and he was quick to toot his own horn as an example of how Vandy is getting better profs. It kind of turned us off. Vandy is also kind of US News ranking obsessed, and it strikes me as misguided, unnecessary, and unseemly.

Penn: yes, the Wharton name will override all, despite some high-profile convictions and continued investigations into certain Wharton alums. As far as sports, well, it depends. Do you enjoy a well-played game, rooting on people from your own school or people you know, or do you need your sports interests to have national implications/weight? If the former, Penn will do fine - your sports world may be smaller but it will be every bit as enjoyable. If the latter, well, you either have to get over that or take a pass on Wharton. I would get over it. You will get a lot out of a Wharton education. I'm not sure they have a real peer for UG business, though there are other UG business schools.

Tulane: I've heard that reputation, but I don't think you're required to participate. If you think you have low impulse control, you might want to avoid it.



A few questions for you, Cspan:

1) What does "DD" stand for-- I'm assuming one of the D's is for "daughter", but I don't really know...

2) How did/do you compare the relative merits of Vanderbilt vs. Duke? Did your "DD" somehow see a much greater level of student "engagement" at Duke? I'm assuming so, because you say that was a turn-off at Vandy, and that she ultimately chose Duke, but I have to wonder if there is that big of a difference between expensive private, selective schools on this metric... perhaps it was that and/or other things? I am assuming that just one professor being full of himself wouldn't have been enough to put you off of Vandy by itself...

3) How did you/your DD assess the relative merits of Penn vs. Duke-- or was that even an option/relevant comparison for your DD?

4) How did you/your DD assess the relative merits of Tulane vs. Duke-- or was that even an option/relevant comparison for your DD?

[matt1]

Tonight, I was rejected by Wharton, so that makes the decision easier, at least. I hear from Vanderbilt tomorrow (hopefully), and I really think it could go either way.

[Reilly]

...if you go to some of these admitted students weekends, they're courting you, and don't expect the experience to be typical ...

One of the highlights of my Duke undergrad years. One Fall, during parents' weekend, a friend painted a bedsheet and hung it over the Bryan Center walkway. The message:

The Truth About Parents' Weekend

1. Your kids drink -- A LOT!
2. There's usually not this much stuff going on.
3. The Administration doesn't care.

It was .... perfect.

[cspan37421]

A few questions for you, Cspan:

1) What does "DD" stand for-- I'm assuming one of the D's is for "daughter", but I don't really know...

2) How did/do you compare the relative merits of Vanderbilt vs. Duke? Did your "DD" somehow see a much greater level of student "engagement" at Duke? I'm assuming so, because you say that was a turn-off at Vandy, and that she ultimately chose Duke, but I have to wonder if there is that big of a difference between expensive private, selective schools on this metric... perhaps it was that and/or other things? I am assuming that just one professor being full of himself wouldn't have been enough to put you off of Vandy by itself...

3) How did you/your DD assess the relative merits of Penn vs. Duke-- or was that even an option/relevant comparison for your DD?

4) How did you/your DD assess the relative merits of Tulane vs. Duke-- or was that even an option/relevant comparison for your DD?

First, Matt - you must have just posted. Sorry about Wharton. My nephew also learned he didn't get in today. Gifted student + football player + rejection = it's tough out there.

Hello Mudge! More details in PM sent to you. In short:

1) DD = Dear Daughter, a slightly snarky moniker you'll often find at CollegeConfidential.com. DS is, of course, Dear Son.
2) Well, DD wanted to go further away to school, so she never seriously considered Vandy (which is just 2 hrs away). And as a non-fan of country music (it really holds cultural hegemony in Nashville, no joke) and colleges in cities, it had less appeal. Her academic experience at Vandy PTY was wonderful, but the social aspect was not so great. Finally, she was not impressed with the history class we sat in on during a visit. Oh, the content of the student newspaper from that day, too. I forget what it was, but it left a bad impression. Maybe about campus culture, attitudes, etc.

Oh, and she turned down Duke for Echols (and other appealing things) at UVA. To answer your question - is there that big of a difference? I don't know, but if I had to bet, maybe not that big of a difference between Duke and Vandy on the academic engagement front. Between Duke and say Kenyon or Carleton, I suspect a huge difference. Students seem closer to their professors at small LACs. Closer to each other too? I don't know. Maybe.

3) DD never applied to Penn, never visited, but had nothing significantly against it, really. Just didn't appeal ... perhaps too pre-professional (that's the reputation); again, college in big city = not so appealing.

4) DD never looked at Tulane. The info on party temptation I got 90% from College Confidential, 10% from a friend who went to Loyola in New Orleans.

See my PM for more details.

[cspan37421]

Tonight, I was rejected by Wharton, so that makes the decision easier, at least. I hear from Vanderbilt tomorrow (hopefully), and I really think it could go either way.

Sorry to hear that, Matt. My nephew also got the "thin e-mail" from Penn. Looks like he's going to go to Ga Tech ... and I suspect he will be very happy. He had a very enjoyable visit there.

[Reisen]

Speaking to my boss' boss' boss' boss over drinks the other night, I learned she turned down a full scholarship to Vandy so she could party and ski at UC Boulder. Evidently, she ripped up the acceptance / scholarship offer, and told her parents she didn't get in.

Not that I would suggest doing likewise, but she turned out ok (senior management at one of the world's largest brands in her early 40's). Granted, she went on to get an MBA at a top program.

[johnb]

Since I'm liberal, myself, I don't view Haverford as so liberal that anyone should strike it from his list.

Of course, as a liberal, I'd never want to attend a hyper-conservative school (at least one after high school; I ran a mock election in HS for the 1976 presidential election. As I recall, Ford won with 82%, Carter got 8%, and Reagan got 10% write ins).


Speaking of parent/child communications, a freshman girlfriend secretly applied to Duke and didn't tell her died-in-the-wool Carolina family that she had turned down her Chapel Hill acceptance until two weeks before Duke started. Apparently, it didn't go over well.

Oh, and there's huge overlap in the student body and faculty at all of these schools. What you make of it is up to you, not anybody else...

[blazindw]

Here is an update:

I now have 11 acceptances, to Alabama, Baylor, Kentucky, Oklahoma, Tulane, Drexel, South Carolina, Miami, Rhodes, Franklin & Marshall, and Richmond. I still have to hear from Vanderbilt, Penn, and Bucknell, but I should hear from all of them by Friday. I was waitlisted at Davidson, but I will not bother with going through the whole waitlist process.

After a lot of thinking, I have narrowed my list to seven schools, and I will go through what I am thinking about them and mention why I cut a couple of others.

Vanderbilt- I loved the school when I toured it, and it fits perfectly with many of the things that I want (good academics, sports culture, nice campus, but near a city, in the South). I, though, still have to hear whether I got in, and, while we have plenty of money to pay for it, I need to convince my dad that it is worth the investment of $55,000 (I get a $5,000 NMF scholarship) a year to go there.

Penn (Wharton)- To be honest, I am not expecting to get into Wharton, but I will go over my thoughts in case I somehow get in. Wharton has great academics and would give me so many opportunities upon graduation. Also, my dad has no problem with paying for Wharton because of its reputation and location. While he wants me to stay near Philadelphia, I want to get away (all things equal) and go to the South, where I fit in a little better and where it stays warm year round. Also, I feel that I would lose something by not having big sports, but would the Wharton name be enough to override that?

Richmond- I loved the campus, college community, and programs in international business. I like the city of Richmond, but it seems a little difficult to get there from the college. The sports are decent, but not like the major conference schools. But, I definitely did feel at home at Richmond. Also, like Vanderbilt, I may have to convince my dad that Richmond is worth it.

Tulane- I have been accepted into the Honors College and have a $25,000 a year scholarship (plus a little bit for being a NMF). It seems to have the balance between city and campus that I like. Its big questions center around the fact that I have not been there on a tour and whether the party culture of New Orleans is too much for me. My dad is on board with paying for it. I have also applied to the Altman Program, but I will not hear back about that for a few weeks.

Miami- Despite demonstrating little interest over the application period, I was accepted with a $24,000 scholarship and an invitation to interview for a full scholarship. I really do not have a sense of the school, but I will tour when I am there for the interview. I think that it will be in a gray zone until I go for that interview in two weeks.

Alabama- As a NMF, I would receive all of the benefits that they offer to us. When I toured it, I felt that the campus was really nice, and, while big, had most things (even the football stadium!) right on the central quad. The honors college has a great reputation, and they have a ton of money. I really liked Tuscaloosa as well. Strangely, it reminded me of the area of Raleigh where my family is from. I still wonder if there is an academic trade-off to going to Alabama, though.

Kentucky- Many things are similar for Kentucky to Alabama, but there are a few other things for me to consider with it. The campus is really nice, but a bit spread out (not really one central area). Of course, like Alabama, I love the school spirit, and Lexington is great. I am also in the Global Scholars Program, which is great for my interest in International Business. However, the school as a whole has a much lower reputation than even Alabama, and I do not like Kentucky basketball, so that would be something that I would have to overcome.


Some schools that I cut from my list:

Drexel- I can be picky at this point, and I want a real campus and college community (not to mention a football team).
South Carolina- Due to applying late, I cannot get into the honors college right away, and, therefore, am not a direct admit into the International Business program.
Bucknell- A little too isolated and cold
Oklahoma, Baylor- I will not be able to visit them for practical reasons.
F&M, Rhodes- too small, D3 sports

Please let me know if you have any questions about Miami. I'd be happy to answer them via PM or any other private exchange you wish.

[matt1]

As we progressed through March, decisions continued to funnel in. For a while, I was living in a stream of acceptances, as I applied to many schools that were close to 100% bets of admission. Finally, that stretch broke when I was waitlisted at Davidson in late March (and I did not accept the spot on the waitlist). During the next week, I would indeed get accepted to the schools that I was originally going to use as safeties (Richmond and Bucknell), but I was rejected at Wharton and waitlisted at Vanderbilt (for a total of 12 acceptances, 2 waitlists, and 2 rejections). I decided to remain on the Vanderbilt waitlist.

Also during March, I made a couple of college visits, going to Alabama and Kentucky. I thought that both had great things to offer. Alabama has poured so many resources into its honors college, has a nice campus and BIG sports, which bring a lot of school spirit. But, I loved the Global Scholars program in International Business at Kentucky, but did not feel like there would be as many high-achieving students there or that it would have much of a reputation. Alabama actually ranks #1 in the nation among public universities (and #4 overall) for the number of National Merit Scholars enrolled. Both Lexington and Tuscaloosa were great as well.

Later on, I got a letter from South Carolina saying that I had been accepted into the Capstone Scholars program, which would make me a direct admit to their International Business Program. However, it is not the honors college, and it was getting very late in the process, so I did not add it to my list, despite thinking that maybe I would be passing up a great opportunity in not seriously considering South Carolina.

Also in late March, I received an e-mail from Miami saying that I was a finalist for the Singer Scholarship, which is a full tuition scholarship and that I should go down to visit and interview for the scholarship in early April. Prior to this, Miami was kind of on the fringe of my final grouping and was unlikely to make the cut, but being up for this scholarship would give me a chance to go to campus and decide for myself. My final five were Richmond, Alabama, Miami, Tulane, and Kentucky (plus Vanderbilt, which I will get to in a minute).

The Vanderbilt decision was the last one to be released (the night after Ivy Day), so I already had an idea of where everything stood. Thinking through my options and what I liked about each one, I determined that Vanderbilt was really where I wanted to be, as it kind of mixed what I liked about many of the other schools into one place. But, it is very selective, so I really did not know what to expect. Ultimately, I was waitlisted. Not all colleges use the waitlist in the same way, but Vanderbilt really does use it, so it truly is a maybe (particularly being full pay). My college counselor said that only once has my school tried playing the Vanderbilt waitlist, but that it worked out for that student. But, at best, the chances of my getting in are still around 50/50 (if that), even if I do everything right, so I need to pick another school.

The first weekend in April turned out to be pivotal in my decision making process, as I had my Miami interview weekend on Friday and Saturday, followed by Tulane's Top Scholars Weekend Sunday and Monday. I knew that it was going to be a long weekend full of early-morning wakeups, but I was not sure what would come of it. After spending two days in Miami, I really liked the opportunities that it would provide me in International Business, along with it being a place where I could envision myself. I thought that my interview went well, but I was a little worried that my interviewer was an engineering professor, when most people seemed to have interviewers in their areas of interest. He even said "I'm not sure why they assigned you to me" after I discussed my interests.

Sunday morning, I had to wake up at 3:30 (2:30 New Orleans time!) to catch a connecting flight to Atlanta on my way to Tulane, so I knew that I would be in for a long day. As I went through the sessions during the day on Sunday, I was unsure. I loved the Altman Program, but I was worried about whether I could even get into it, as I come from a high school with NO AP classes, though I will take two exams next month. Even if I could, it would mean that I would have to take possibly 21 credit hours a semester (instead of 12-18.5) to stay on track to graduate in four years. Later, I had an overnight visit with a student and a couple other prospective students. During this, it became apparent that I liked a couple of other schools better and that Tulane was not the best fit for me. First of all, if I go all the way to Louisiana for college, I want to be in Louisiana, not in New York/New Jersey transplanted South. At times, I even felt like I would be the only person there who was not Jewish. Also, it felt that the student body had school spirit, but not in the way I like (around sports). My host even said that no one really cared about the opening of a new football stadium this fall. Drinking also felt omnipresent- a bus driver asked one of the other prospective students whether the juice or something that he had just bought was alcohol. That suspicion did not rest well with me. I know that it is present at every school, but it just felt more overt at Tulane, perhaps because of New Orleans. It probably also did not help that my host was a hipster who took us to this hipster coffee house that seemed somewhat sketchy and that I had a bad cold by this point (which somehow only lasted until Tuesday afternoon).

When thinking back on that weekend, I also eliminated Kentucky, just because I could see myself at Richmond, Miami, and Alabama more than at Kentucky. Two days ago, I found out that I did not get the full scholarship to Miami, but that I did get an additional $4,000 per year, bringing my scholarship to $28,000 per year. Despite not getting the scholarship, it is still near the top of my list as a result of that visit. It seems that my parents do not think that Richmond is worth $60,000 per year given my other options, but they think that Vanderbilt could be. So, as of yesterday, it looked as if my decision would be coming down to Alabama and Miami. But, after thinking more about South Carolina after getting a call from them Friday night, I decided that I have to consider their International Business program. I am making plans to visit Columbia, SC next weekend (which unfortunately means that I will be touring on Friday, which just so happens to be my 18th birthday). From there, I hope to decide within a day or two between it, Alabama, and Miami. But, I do know that it is a tentative commitment, as I am hoping that somehow Vanderbilt will come through for me.

[-jk]

Thanks for this thread. As a parent of a soon-to-be high schooler, I find it fascinating.

Good luck with Vandy!

-jk

[rthomas]

So, as of yesterday, it looked as if my decision would be coming down to Alabama and Miami. But, after thinking more about South Carolina after getting a call from them Friday night, I decided that I have to consider their International Business program. I am making plans to visit Columbia, SC next weekend (which unfortunately means that I will be touring on Friday, which just so happens to be my 18th birthday). From there, I hope to decide within a day or two between it, Alabama, and Miami. But, I do know that it is a tentative commitment, as I am hoping that somehow Vanderbilt will come through for me.

Just curious how much you spent, time (including all the travel you did to make your decision) and money (including travel and applications), on your entire process.

[matt1]

Just curious how much you spent, time (including all the travel you did to make your decision) and money (including travel and applications), on your entire process.

Cost- We didn't really keep a tally of cost

Time- It lasted two years, but here are all of my trips in terms of actively searching:

June, 2012- 5 days, 2 official visits, 2 "unofficial visits" (combined with visiting family)
July-August, 2012- 4 days, 1 unofficial visit (my mom had a conference at a college and I went along)
August, 2012- 4 days, 2 official visits
September, 2012- 1 day, 1 official visit (local)
September, 2012- 1 day, 1 official visit (local)
October, 2012- 1 day, 1 official visit (local)
November, 2012- 1 day, 1 official visit (local)
January, 2013- 1 day, 2 official visits (local)
March, 2013- 6 days, 6 official visits (somewhat combined with visiting family)
March-April, 2013- 5 days, 1 unofficial visit (mostly a vacation)
October, 2013- 3 days, 2 official visits
January, 2014- 1 day, 2 official visits (local)
February-March, 2014- 3 days, 1 official visit
March, 2014- 2 days, 1 official visit
April, 2014- 4 days, 2 official visits
Next weekend- 3-4 days, 1 official visit

IN TOTAL: 16 trips, 45-46 days (incl. start and end days), 29 visits (25 official)

But, we combined a lot of them with travel or visiting family, making it a lot easier (plus, we spaced them out over two full years). And, in that daunting looking 6 visits in 6 days stretch, we used my family's place in Raleigh as a home base and spread out in NC and VA from there. We only had to spend one night in a hotel.

[cspan37421]

Wow, Matt, thanks for the update. I have to agree, this is a remarkable thread. It seems like you and your parents are doing well in progressing through the decision process, and making astute observations, though I was a bit surprised at what you said about Tulane. A quick google search leads me to a Hillel page that claims Tulane is 32% Jewish. That's remarkable, and a big surprise to me. Guess that shows you the limitations of my Judaic Studies Certificate from Duke (don't ask me about nearly any modern Jewish practices and holidays - I know almost nothing ... just history and philosophy). Still, Jewish culture traditionally values education highly, and I would view that as a good sign, intellectually speaking.

It's amazing to me that you have time to jet around and make these visits, but it's a boon to you that you can. You'll have to make your decision based on something, so first-hand knowledge is quite an advantage. That said, as I suggested before, schools that really want you will be in full-charm mode, so it's good to figure out how to weigh your personal experiences (very limited exposure, but personal) with the aggregate feedback of many other students. Last year when my daughter was going through this we considered reviews at College Prowler, which appears to now be called colleges.niche.com or something like that. I'm sure there are others too. I would just recommend that you heed such reviews especially if they do not agree with your first-hand knowledge from a short visit. When those two sources are in concordance, I think you can have confidence. When they differ, give it some extra thought.

Good luck on getting through the Vanderbilt WL!

Cspan

[matt1]

Wow, Matt, thanks for the update. I have to agree, this is a remarkable thread. It seems like you and your parents are doing well in progressing through the decision process, and making astute observations, though I was a bit surprised at what you said about Tulane. A quick google search leads me to a Hillel page that claims Tulane is 32% Jewish. That's remarkable, and a big surprise to me. Guess that shows you the limitations of my Judaic Studies Certificate from Duke (don't ask me about nearly any modern Jewish practices and holidays - I know almost nothing ... just history and philosophy). Still, Jewish culture traditionally values education highly, and I would view that as a good sign, intellectually speaking.

It's amazing to me that you have time to jet around and make these visits, but it's a boon to you that you can. You'll have to make your decision based on something, so first-hand knowledge is quite an advantage. That said, as I suggested before, schools that really want you will be in full-charm mode, so it's good to figure out how to weigh your personal experiences (very limited exposure, but personal) with the aggregate feedback of many other students. Last year when my daughter was going through this we considered reviews at College Prowler, which appears to now be called colleges.niche.com or something like that. I'm sure there are others too. I would just recommend that you heed such reviews especially if they do not agree with your first-hand knowledge from a short visit. When those two sources are in concordance, I think you can have confidence. When they differ, give it some extra thought.

Good luck on getting through the Vanderbilt WL!

Cspan

I have been to College Prowler and to the individual school boards at College Confidential. About Tulane, maybe it was just the random sampling of students that I happened to meet, but it definitely did feel like much more than 32%, not that there is anything wrong with that, but just that I felt like I was in a vast minority there. But, that was probably the least of my concerns about Tulane.

[Mudge]

I have been to College Prowler and to the individual school boards at College Confidential. About Tulane, maybe it was just the random sampling of students that I happened to meet, but it definitely did feel like much more than 32%, not that there is anything wrong with that, but just that I felt like I was in a vast minority there. But, that was probably the least of my concerns about Tulane.

A "vast minority"-- seems like a bit of a contradiction in terms... anyway, I have personal experience with someone close using Vanderbilt as a replacement for their life-long love of Duke-- it has plusses and minuses... more, if you wish... I also have personal experience of someone close attending Tulane as their first choice-- what was the "most of [your] concerns about Tulane"?

[brevity]

I have been to College Prowler and to the individual school boards at College Confidential. About Tulane, maybe it was just the random sampling of students that I happened to meet, but it definitely did feel like much more than 32%, not that there is anything wrong with that, but just that I felt like I was in a vast minority there. But, that was probably the least of my concerns about Tulane.


A "vast minority"-- seems like a bit of a contradiction in terms... anyway, I have personal experience with someone close using Vanderbilt as a replacement for their life-long love of Duke-- it has plusses and minuses... more, if you wish... I also have personal experience of someone close attending Tulane as their first choice-- what was the "most of [your] concerns about Tulane"?

Asked and answered:


Sunday morning, I had to wake up at 3:30 (2:30 New Orleans time!) to catch a connecting flight to Atlanta on my way to Tulane, so I knew that I would be in for a long day. As I went through the sessions during the day on Sunday, I was unsure. I loved the Altman Program, but I was worried about whether I could even get into it, as I come from a high school with NO AP classes, though I will take two exams next month. Even if I could, it would mean that I would have to take possibly 21 credit hours a semester (instead of 12-18.5) to stay on track to graduate in four years. Later, I had an overnight visit with a student and a couple other prospective students. During this, it became apparent that I liked a couple of other schools better and that Tulane was not the best fit for me. First of all, if I go all the way to Louisiana for college, I want to be in Louisiana, not in New York/New Jersey transplanted South. At times, I even felt like I would be the only person there who was not Jewish. Also, it felt that the student body had school spirit, but not in the way I like (around sports). My host even said that no one really cared about the opening of a new football stadium this fall. Drinking also felt omnipresent- a bus driver asked one of the other prospective students whether the juice or something that he had just bought was alcohol. That suspicion did not rest well with me. I know that it is present at every school, but it just felt more overt at Tulane, perhaps because of New Orleans. It probably also did not help that my host was a hipster who took us to this hipster coffee house that seemed somewhat sketchy and that I had a bad cold by this point (which somehow only lasted until Tuesday afternoon).

He's probably right. People in Louisiana who want to rally behind a sports team for school spirit go to Baton Rouge, not New Orleans. This will become abundantly clear when Tulane joins the American Athletic Conference later this year.

[Mudge]

Asked and answered:



He's probably right. People in Louisiana who want to rally behind a sports team for school spirit go to Baton Rouge, not New Orleans. This will become abundantly clear when Tulane joins the American Athletic Conference later this year.

Of course, I had read his (lengthy) discussion of his Tulane trip-- I was asking him to be specific on which of those many concerns constitute his "biggest concern about Tulane" (assuming that his biggest concern is, in fact, in that list)... I have rebuttals on some of those, which may ease his "concerns"-- or maybe not...

[rthomas]

http://time.com/45099/new-york-teen-gets-accepted-to-all-8-ivy-league-schools/

This kid got accepted into all 8 ivy schools.


So what’s Enin’s winning formula? The first generation Ghanaian son of two immigrant nurses ranks 11th in his class of 647 at William Floyd High School and scored 2,250 out of 2,400 (the 99th percentile) on his SATs. He has taken 11 AP courses, sings at school, and volunteers at a local hospital’s radiology department.

[duke79]

http://time.com/45099/new-york-teen-gets-accepted-to-all-8-ivy-league-schools/

This kid got accepted into all 8 ivy schools.

Yea, this was in the news a few weeks ago. He said at the time he was leaning towards attending Yale. One of my classmates in high school applied to two colleges - Stanford and Harvard. Rather gutsy. He got into both. Harvard was his back-up school. And he got the Morehead scholarship to UNC, but turned it down.

[matt1]

Of course, I had read his (lengthy) discussion of his Tulane trip-- I was asking him to be specific on which of those many concerns constitute his "biggest concern about Tulane" (assuming that his biggest concern is, in fact, in that list)... I have rebuttals on some of those, which may ease his "concerns"-- or maybe not...

My biggest concerns was just that I did not feel the "fit" at Tulane when I was there like I did at some other schools. I would love to hear about the Vandy experience (as a substitute for Duke). But, barring the WL at Vanderbilt, it will be Miami, Alabama, or South Carolina, likely one of the two SEC ones.

[duke09hms]

Cost- We didn't really keep a tally of cost

Time- It lasted two years, but here are all of my trips in terms of actively searching:

June, 2012- 5 days, 2 official visits, 2 "unofficial visits" (combined with visiting family)
July-August, 2012- 4 days, 1 unofficial visit (my mom had a conference at a college and I went along)
August, 2012- 4 days, 2 official visits
September, 2012- 1 day, 1 official visit (local)
September, 2012- 1 day, 1 official visit (local)
October, 2012- 1 day, 1 official visit (local)
November, 2012- 1 day, 1 official visit (local)
January, 2013- 1 day, 2 official visits (local)
March, 2013- 6 days, 6 official visits (somewhat combined with visiting family)
March-April, 2013- 5 days, 1 unofficial visit (mostly a vacation)
October, 2013- 3 days, 2 official visits
January, 2014- 1 day, 2 official visits (local)
February-March, 2014- 3 days, 1 official visit
March, 2014- 2 days, 1 official visit
April, 2014- 4 days, 2 official visits
Next weekend- 3-4 days, 1 official visit

IN TOTAL: 16 trips, 45-46 days (incl. start and end days), 29 visits (25 official)

But, we combined a lot of them with travel or visiting family, making it a lot easier (plus, we spaced them out over two full years). And, in that daunting looking 6 visits in 6 days stretch, we used my family's place in Raleigh as a home base and spread out in NC and VA from there. We only had to spend one night in a hotel.

Wow, you are a very very privileged kid. Have much to be thankful for.

[matt1]

I have it down to two- Alabama and South Carolina. Here are the reasons to go to each school:

Alabama-
Honors College
More NMF investment- larger top-tier
Higher overall national ranking
Much nicer dorms
Slightly better football team
More school spirit (I realize that SC has plenty- but I definitely heard more Roll Tides than Go 'Cocks on my visits, maybe because Go 'Cocks doesn't sound great to say- we'll see if DBR autocensors their name...)
Better area right around campus
Business school centrally located

South Carolina-
IBA (International Business Americas) Program (and all that goes with it- being in a cohort of 15-20 students from the US and the same from Chile)
Ranked #1 in International Business
Better overall city (being in a state capital of a red state is nice for a politically active Republican)
A reasonable drive from my grandparents
New business school opening fall 2014
More sports culture outside of football (Bama has no match for what USC baseball represents at least right now... unless the basketball team gets good)

Does anyone have any advice?

[rthomas]

Does anyone have any advice?

One more visit?

[mkirsh]

Does anyone have any advice?

You've obviously been very thoughtful, so the only other thing you might want to consider (don't think I've seen this yet in the thread) is where you may want to live and work post graduation, and see what the alumni concentration from those two schools is in those areas. I would imagine SC probably has more northeast representation than Bama (ie DC area employers are probably more familiar with hiring SC grads more so than Bama grads, etc), but Bama may have a stronger representation in different places. Just another variable to consider if all else is too close to call.

[Reisen]

I have it down to two- Alabama and South Carolina. Here are the reasons to go to each school:

Alabama-
Honors College
More NMF investment- larger top-tier
Higher overall national ranking
Much nicer dorms
Slightly better football team
More school spirit (I realize that SC has plenty- but I definitely heard more Roll Tides than Go 'Cocks on my visits, maybe because Go 'Cocks doesn't sound great to say- we'll see if DBR autocensors their name...)
Better area right around campus
Business school centrally located

South Carolina-
IBA (International Business Americas) Program (and all that goes with it- being in a cohort of 15-20 students from the US and the same from Chile)
Ranked #1 in International Business
Better overall city (being in a state capital of a red state is nice for a politically active Republican)
A reasonable drive from my grandparents
New business school opening fall 2014
More sports culture outside of football (Bama has no match for what USC baseball represents at least right now... unless the basketball team gets good)

Does anyone have any advice?

Which is closer to home?

Based on the above, I'd probably go with SC:

- A new facility is a big draw. I went to business school at Georgetown right before they opened their new business school, and it was night and day (I was in the old building).

- Being close to your grandparents could be nice for short holidays like Thanksgiving

- I think the location is better for post-graduation. You have Atlanta to the west, Charleston has some opportunities, Charlotte to the north, obviously RTP, and then DC. Alabama is obviously still close to Atlanta, but takes you that much farther away from the rest, and I'm not sold on the job prospects to the west until you get to Texas.

Granted, that could just be my bias. I think you'll get similar experiences at both, and the dorms, honors college, and NMF $$$ are draws for Alabama. I think the sports are kind of a wash, and you'll enjoy them at both schools.

[Rich]

Does anyone have any advice?

Matt,

I can't believe that with all you've put in and done to get to this point you don't, way deep down in your gut, have a favorite. Make a decision about going to one and see if you have even the slightest pang of regret that you're making the wrong choice. If you do, then do the same for the other. For any big decision I've ever made where I've been stuck between two things, I have always, deep down in my heart of hearts, had a preference. Sometimes it takes an effort to admit it to myself, and maybe it's 51-49% close, but I just don't think anything is 50-50%. Don't ask us to tell you what you should feel and forget about what's on paper.

Deep down you know which one is right for you...go find it.

That's my advice.

[mkirsh]

Matt,

I can't believe that with all you've put in and done to get to this point you don't, way deep down in your gut, have a favorite. Make a decision about going to one and see if you have even the slightest pang of regret that you're making the wrong choice. If you do, then do the same for the other. For any big decision I've ever made where I've been stuck between two things, I have always, deep down in my heart of hearts, had a preference. Sometimes it takes an effort to admit it to myself, and maybe it's 51-49% close, but I just don't think anything is 50-50%. Don't ask us to tell you what you should feel and forget about what's on paper.

Deep down you know which one is right for you...go find it.

That's my advice.

This is good advice. One trick I often do is flip a coin - if I instantly feel either happy or unhappy with the result, I have the answer.

[cspan37421]

Does anyone have any advice?

Most people are risk averse, and (whether they know it consciously) use a decision rule called "minimax", and employ it with respect to regret avoidance.

In this case, you look at each school and estimate, "what is the biggest regret I might have later in life if I don't come here?" Or, instead of individual regrets, you can consider it in the aggregate: you could formulate it as "which school might I regret more not attending?"

Whichever place has the larger potential regret, you should go there. By doing so, you have minimized the maximum regret you may feel later on. In other words, had you acted differently, it would be worse.

Taking a step back, I've read in a number of places that when older people are interviewed about their life's regrets, the majority of them are things they did not do, rather than things that they did. Perhaps this speaks to hesitancy to act boldly; perhaps it reveals our difficulty in seeing how we could have acted any other way, if the tape were rewound.

A completely different take:

Nice dorms are comforting. Pretty campus is nice. High rankings are nice. Years after graduating, very little of that will matter. The substance of what you learn, how well you have been prepared, the students and professors you get to know, the quality of intellectual stimulation you get, all that will stay with you. At Duke I lived in a 19th century tinderbox of a freshman dorm (Jarvis). It wasn't very nice. Guess what? Looking back, it doesn't matter. What stayed with me were the late-night conversations, the classes I had, the friends I made, the crazy/funny stuff, etc. Dorm is just a place to sleep and shower. [Don't try to study in your room; you'll regret it. This may surprise you because they give you a desk and bookcase. But it's true - you will go crazy trying to concentrate studying in your room]. Now, as I've said, it's hard to get a feel for students and profs even on an admitted students weekend. You may meet many kids and get to know a half-dozen somewhat in a short weekend. You may sit in on a class. But it's a very small sample size, and you cannot rely on it.

If you are quite sure that international business will be your thing, then to me, USC looks better from what you wrote. Many freshmen are uncertain about their major, and to them, I would say don't put too much weight on facilities for a major you have an 80% chance of changing anyway. Plus you mentioned it is better situated as an outlet for your potential political involvement. Oh - and maybe you'll have a friend who can get you in a Duke game sometime. :)

You surprised me a bit by noting distance from your grandparents. If you are close with them, that's cool. And they have the benefit of a long life lived, and can often provide sage advice. (utter fools seldom live that long, or have grandkids who think it's good to be near them!).

Just my 2 cents.

[Reilly]

... when older people are interviewed about their life's regrets, the majority of them are things they did not do, rather than things that they did ...

I guess it is good to get the perspective of those who don't drink, as well.

[matt1]

Thank you to everyone for your input, but I ultimately decided to attend the University of Alabama.

[brevity]

Thank you to everyone for your input, but I ultimately decided to attend the University of Alabama.

Man, Nick Saban gets everybody.

Congratulations.

[cspan37421]

Thank you to everyone for your input, but I ultimately decided to attend the University of Alabama.

Kudos! Over time, let us know what you like and don't like.

You must feel a great weight has been lifted.

[sue71, esq]

Thank you to everyone for your input, but I ultimately decided to attend the University of Alabama.

Congratulations!

[DukieInKansas]

Congratulations!

[missfinch]

Thank you to everyone for your input, but I ultimately decided to attend the University of Alabama.

Roll Tide Roll! I have degrees from both Alabama and Duke. My sons (both Dukies) and I will tell you it is absolutely possible to be diehard fans of both schools. Congratulations!

[johnb]

One of my classmates in high school applied to two colleges - Stanford and Harvard. Rather gutsy. He got into both. Harvard was his back-up school. And he got the Morehead scholarship to UNC, but turned it down.

Impressive that he got a Morehouse without even applying.

My college roommate applied only to Duke and only later realized that there was a chance he wouldn't get in (he'd gone to a hot shot high school in England and had been accepted to Oxford the year before (he did a second senior year in the states) and hadn't paid much attention to our college counselor.

As for Matt, good luck at Alabama...

[duke79]

Impressive that he got a Morehouse without even applying.

My college roommate applied only to Duke and only later realized that there was a chance he wouldn't get in (he'd gone to a hot shot high school in England and had been accepted to Oxford the year before (he did a second senior year in the states) and hadn't paid much attention to our college counselor.

As for Matt, good luck at Alabama...

Yea, I went to a high school that was allowed to nominate two high school seniors each year for the Morehead Scholarship at UNC. They then had to go through the application process for the Morehead. Both my classmates got the scholarship and both turned it down.

[matt1]

I was accepted off the waitlist to Vanderbilt yesterday, so I now have one final decision to make.

[cspan37421]

I was accepted off the waitlist to Vanderbilt yesterday, so I now have one final decision to make.

and ... cue the twist for the surprise ending!

This is why, as a kid, I always preferred to stay until the credits were done rolling.

P.S. - Kudos! I don't know about Vandy but I think at Duke the odds of getting in RD are better than the odds of getting off the waitlist.

[Reisen]

I was accepted off the waitlist to Vanderbilt yesterday, so I now have one final decision to make.

That's great news. I would think long and hard about Vandy.

Also, I remember that when I was applying to colleges, I got waitlisted at Stanford, and that really put me off. I felt like Duke and the other schools "wanted me", where as at Stanford, I was their "second choice".

Now that I've been involved in campus recruiting for a Dow-component firm (including at Duke) for many years, my attitude has evolved. Students applying for internships face similar odds, and the ones that aren't a good fit are outright declined. After that, it becomes all about managing yield. Some offers will be made to students where you know the likelihood they will accept is very low (ie. because they might have 6 or 8 offers from top firms like Google, Apple, P&G, McKinsey, etc.). But you don't want to outright deny them because if they did accept, they would probably do very well.

That necessitates having a waitlist/alternates. Those students that get in do tend to accept, and tend to do very well. It's much less about second choice, than it is about yield management for a very small pool of students (like the guy who got into all the Ivies) that will dictate the # of available slots.

[duke79]

I was accepted off the waitlist to Vanderbilt yesterday, so I now have one final decision to make.

Congrats on getting into Vandy !! Obviously, it is your decision but I would give a lot of thought to going to Vandy over Alabama. I don't know much about Alabama (other than their football program) and at least part of the decision would be going to a smaller private university versus a larger state school. Vandy is a very, very good university with a rising reputation nationally. Think Duke 25 years ago. I've always believed that, all other things being equal, you should go to the best college that you get in to. Admittedly, "best" is highly subjective and there can be a lot of different factors that play into the decision (not the least of which is how much you have to spend or borrow to attend).

Good luck with your decision.

[duke09hms]

Easy choice, go to Vandy.

Difference in brand equity is immense.

[weezie]

No other choice! Vandy fer shure. Great alumni network.

[matt1]

I am going to Vanderbilt. Getting into a school like Vandy makes me even more annoyed that I didn't get into Duke ED with a double legacy, though. College admissions are a strange world.

Anchor Down!!

[rthomas]

I am going to Vanderbilt. Getting into a school like Vandy makes me even more annoyed that I didn't get into Duke ED with a double legacy, though. College admissions are a strange world.

Anchor Down!!

It's a tough life. Get used to it now.

[YmoBeThere]

I am going to Vanderbilt. Getting into a school like Vandy makes me even more annoyed that I didn't get into Duke ED with a double legacy, though. College admissions are a strange world.

Anchor Down!!

Congrats! I enjoyed my two years there immensely(grad school).

[fuse]

I am going to Vanderbilt. Getting into a school like Vandy makes me even more annoyed that I didn't get into Duke ED with a double legacy, though. College admissions are a strange world.

Anchor Down!!

Congratulations! My best friend went to Vanderbilt, he loved it. I visited a couple times- beautiful campus, similar student population to Duke.

Good luck!

[Reisen]

College admissions are a strange world.


That they are. I got into Duke, UVA out-of-state, a ton of others, and waitlisted at Stanford. Randomly, I was outright denied at Rice.

All this stuff happens for a reason. I suspect you'll be very happy at Vandy. To bring this thread back to the beginning, I think Duke could still be a great option for grad school.

[duke79]

I am going to Vanderbilt. Getting into a school like Vandy makes me even more annoyed that I didn't get into Duke ED with a double legacy, though. College admissions are a strange world.

Anchor Down!!

Congrats on the choice !! I think that is very smart move. I would definitely choose Vandy over Alabama and some of the other schools you were considering (again, assuming it is affordable for you). Sorry about the Duke ED decision. I think college admissions at the highly selective schools is definitely somewhat of a crap shoot. Hard to figure out sometimes why they accept some people and reject other applicants. Not always a rational and understandable process. I would advise anyone NOT to take it personally. Who were the double legacy? Parents?

[Edouble]

Congrats on the choice !! I think that is very smart move. I would definitely choose Vandy over Alabama and some of the other schools you were considering (again, assuming it is affordable for you). Sorry about the Duke ED decision. I think college admissions at the highly selective schools is definitely somewhat of a crap shoot. Hard to figure out sometimes why they accept some people and reject other applicants. Not always a rational and understandable process. I would advise anyone NOT to take it personally. Who were the double legacy? Parents?

Agreed, college admissions are strange. My high school girlfriend got into Yale, Duke, and Dartmouth, but was outright denied admission to Amherst, which was her first choice.

[duke79]

Agreed, college admissions are strange. My high school girlfriend got into Yale, Duke, and Dartmouth, but was outright denied admission to Amherst, which was her first choice.

Smart HS girlfriend. Yea, that sort of outcome just proves that the admission process is not always rationale or fair. Did she go to Yale?

[cspan37421]

Yea, that sort of outcome just proves that the admission process is not always rationale or fair.

I would suggest that the process is not always understandable, rather than not always rational or fair. Just because we can't think of a reason doesn't mean there isn't one.

Applications are not sorted purely on merit. Sometimes a legacy, development admit, or scholarship athlete will get preference. Sometimes it's a diversity criteria (which can be ethnicity, nationality, socioeconomic status, special talent - e.g., do we need a sousaphone player this year?), etc.

Moreover, some schools may engage in strategic rejections ... that is, to increase their yield and lower their admit rate, they may deny outstanding candidates that they are convinced will not attend even if admitted.

We are all working with limited information, unless we're on the admissions committee itself, and some of us have less info than others.

[Edouble]

Smart HS girlfriend. Yea, that sort of outcome just proves that the admission process is not always rationale or fair. Did she go to Yale?

Yes, she did go to Yale.

She was smart.

I ended up meeting a prettier, but just as smart girl at Duke.

I guess it worked out for everyone.

[matt1]

A couple weeks ago, my dad called Duke, without my knowledge, to get an explanation. He asked them why I was rejected and told me that the call was to "see if I can make a donation and get you in". But, why now? I think that he thought that the fact that I got into Vanderbilt could be used as ammunition. Of course, nothing changed, though they did offer an explanation: my SAT score was not enough to set off my somewhat low for Duke GPA and that it was not a difficult decision at all. Part of me also wonders if having our valedictorian apply ED as well may have hurt me (he got in). Our Naviance (tool that lets you compare your GPA and SAT to others from your school who applied to the same colleges) says that they have accepted exactly one student from my school several years in a row.

But, I think that Vanderbilt puts more weight on the SAT score in general, which probably helped me. Their average scores are slightly higher than Duke's, despite having a higher acceptance rate and being considered easier to get into. I think that my profile just was more weighted to what Vandy wants. Also, I am the only person going to Vanderbilt from my school, so they probably wanted to maintain some sort of relationship with my school.

But, I want to make it clear that I had nothing to do with my dad's desperate attempt.

[cspan37421]

That's quite a revelation, and I'll be quick to acknowledge your last sentence there, distancing yourself from it. Although I find the notion of a "development admit" to be highly distasteful and completely contrary to the spirit that drives the other 90% or so of admits, as well as a number of other values asserted from time to time by the leadership of the community, I recognize the principle of enlightened self-interest, perhaps analogous to realpolitik in another realm of human interaction. [I have a relative who has a strong opinion about this practice. He thinks it should be more out in the open - 10% of all spots in the entering class should be openly auctioned off, but with no guarantee of continued academic good standing.]

My guess is that your dad's inquiry, if it had a chance of being fruitful at all, would have been so at a much earlier point in the process.

I'm a bit surprised about the standardized test scores that you cite, as that would represent a change, if you're comparing apples to apples. Be aware, though, that a few schools boost their apparent score profile by publishing the middle 50% of accepted students, rather than the middle 50% of matriculated students. Nevertheless, it is true that Duke appears to have made a conscious decision to seek students who are difference-makers in their communities, and all else being equal may well favor such an applicant over someone with slightly higher scores who is not seen as being as much of a difference-maker.

There was some stat in an admissions article in Duke Magazine a year or two ago that indicated (IIRC) that they denied admission to something like 70% of valedictorians ... and not a few applicants with perfect test scores as well. Combining that with other elements of the academic record, aAt some point the applicants are deemed plenty smart enough to do well at Duke, and the decision is based more on other things like how they are thought to contribute to the Duke community (in what ways, to what degree).

One last thing - there are so many applicants these days, and such a low acceptance rate, I would not be so sure that maintaining relations with a particular secondary school is a factor in most cases. Suffice it to say, if that were a factor, I'd have seen different results for the prestigious private schools in my area. I don't think Duke (nor Vandy) feels they owe these schools anything but a fair evaluation of their applicants in light of the university's own needs and wishes.

[duke09hms]

Schools will not publish their average SAT scores. Rather, they give a general sense by publishing the middle range.

[duke79]

A couple weeks ago, my dad called Duke, without my knowledge, to get an explanation. He asked them why I was rejected and told me that the call was to "see if I can make a donation and get you in". But, why now? I think that he thought that the fact that I got into Vanderbilt could be used as ammunition. Of course, nothing changed, though they did offer an explanation: my SAT score was not enough to set off my somewhat low for Duke GPA and that it was not a difficult decision at all. Part of me also wonders if having our valedictorian apply ED as well may have hurt me (he got in). Our Naviance (tool that lets you compare your GPA and SAT to others from your school who applied to the same colleges) says that they have accepted exactly one student from my school several years in a row.

But, I think that Vanderbilt puts more weight on the SAT score in general, which probably helped me. Their average scores are slightly higher than Duke's, despite having a higher acceptance rate and being considered easier to get into. I think that my profile just was more weighted to what Vandy wants. Also, I am the only person going to Vanderbilt from my school, so they probably wanted to maintain some sort of relationship with my school.

But, I want to make it clear that I had nothing to do with my dad's desperate attempt.

I give your Dad credit for doing all that that he could to try to get you into Duke. I'm not sure that an offer of a donation, at any point in the admissions process, would assure or help an applicant for admission to a school like Duke (unless, maybe, the donation was in the millions of dollars?). Although I have often wondered when a legacy applies to Duke, does the Admissions Office check with the development office to see if the alum(s) related to the applicant have been substantial donors to Duke over time and whether or not that helps (or hurts if no donations). Also, when I was at Duke for a campus visit about a month ago with my daughter, the admissions person who gave the admissions talk claimed that the they absolutely do not have any quota for number of admits from any high school; although, again, I'm not sure if that is really the case?
Vandy is a great school. You'll do well there and have a fun time. Maybe you can come back to Duke for grad school.

[Rich]

I give your Dad credit for doing all that that he could to try to get you into Duke. I'm not sure that an offer of a donation, at any point in the admissions process, would assure or help an applicant for admission to a school like Duke (unless, maybe, the donation was in the millions of dollars?). Although I have often wondered when a legacy applies to Duke, does the Admissions Office check with the development office to see if the alum(s) related to the applicant have been substantial donors to Duke over time and whether or not that helps (or hurts if no donations). Also, when I was at Duke for a campus visit about a month ago with my daughter, the admissions person who gave the admissions talk claimed that the they absolutely do not have any quota for number of admits from any high school; although, again, I'm not sure if that is really the case?
Vandy is a great school. You'll do well there and have a fun time. Maybe you can come back to Duke for grad school.

I have a friend who used to work in the admissions office at Stanford and they absolutely knew which alumni gave and how much. She even told me that she and her husband, also a Stanford alumni, were donating a certain amount to Stanford each year that she knew was over their threshold of "making a difference" for her kids. In other words, there was some minimum threshold of money that they would need to donate on a yearly basis that would give her children an advantage with the admissions office. So, as an alum, it seems you can give or you can GIVE and it seems to make a difference which you do if your kid won't get in on their own merits.

[duke79]

I have a friend who used to work in the admissions office at Stanford and they absolutely knew which alumni gave and how much. She even told me that she and her husband, also a Stanford alumni, were donating a certain amount to Stanford each year that she knew was over their threshold of "making a difference" for her kids. In other words, there was some minimum threshold of money that they would need to donate on a yearly basis that would give her children an advantage with the admissions office. So, as an alum, it seems you can give or you can GIVE and it seems to make a difference which you do if your kid won't get in on their own merits.

Yea, that does not surprise me (at least for many colleges and universities) that the admissions office knows how much alumni have given when their offspring are applying for admission. I wonder if the admissions office has some sort of secret formula where the quality of the applicant affects how much needs to have been given to make a difference in the admission decision. I find the whole thing distasteful but it's reality.

[-jk]

Yea, that does not surprise me (at least for many colleges and universities) that the admissions office knows how much alumni have given when their offspring are applying for admission. I wonder if the admissions office has some sort of secret formula where the quality of the applicant affects how much needs to have been given to make a difference in the admission decision. I find the whole thing distasteful but it's reality.

Duke has something called the "James B. Duke Society", for those "individuals who have followed the example and generosity of Duke University's founder, James B. Duke." Yeah, we're all monopolistic gajillionaires! Well, OK - maybe Melinda.

-jk

[77devil]

I have a friend who used to work in the admissions office at Stanford and they absolutely knew which alumni gave and how much. She even told me that she and her husband, also a Stanford alumni, were donating a certain amount to Stanford each year that she knew was over their threshold of "making a difference" for her kids. In other words, there was some minimum threshold of money that they would need to donate on a yearly basis that would give her children an advantage with the admissions office. So, as an alum, it seems you can give or you can GIVE and it seems to make a difference which you do if your kid won't get in on their own merits.

Or you give even if your kids are highly qualified to be admitted on their own merits because the sheer numbers are such that there are 4 highly qualified applicants for every slot. Even the highly qualified need every edge at the most selective institutions.

[cspan37421]

It's pretty safe to say that Duke appreciates those who give money or time to Duke - and giving both is even better.

There's also some saying in admissions - I can't recall whether it was about an outstanding essay, extraordinary recommendations, perfect board scores, or even donations. But it goes like this: "__________ might cure the sniffles but it won't raise the dead."

As a poster above noted, there are many great kids with a bunch of AP scores of 5, near-perfect grades and test scores, glowing recommendations, ambitious activities, solid essays. Add a powerful impression in the interview, alumni relations that are committed with time and $$, and early decision (do you want us more than any other place) and then you STILL aren't likely to get in. But historically you almost have an even chance. Almost.

[77devil]

It's pretty safe to say that Duke appreciates those who give money or time to Duke - and giving both is even better.

There's also some saying in admissions - I can't recall whether it was about an outstanding essay, extraordinary recommendations, perfect board scores, or even donations. But it goes like this: "__________ might cure the sniffles but it won't raise the dead."

As a poster above noted, there are many great kids with a bunch of AP scores of 5, near-perfect grades and test scores, glowing recommendations, ambitious activities, solid essays. Add a powerful impression in the interview, alumni relations that are committed with time and $$, and early decision (do you want us more than any other place) and then you STILL aren't likely to get in. But historically you almost have an even chance. Almost.

An admissions officer in 2002, when my son applied, was very transparent. She said, and I quote, "Duke helps those who help Duke" in response to another parents question about giving. But it was said in the context you describe as an edge for the qualified. Though I suppose if one gives enough to name a building, it might raise the dead.

[Bluedog]

I think it's perfectly reasonable that a child of an active alumnus gets somewhat of a "hook." Duke wouldn't be where it is today without the generosity of prior graduates and it helps the university to continue to improve when it encourages and even rewards giving back. Duke ALSO sees a student whose parents did not go to college, a first generation American, or a student from an underrepresented minority group in a more favorable/desirable light (assuming the other "qualities" and statistics qualify the individual for Duke). Looking at these various factors as differentiators among the very qualified candidates seems perfectly legitimate if they want to improve the quality or diversity of all students at the university.

I am somebody who got into Duke as a white middle-class male without any legacy, so I did not have any traditional "hook," but I certainly don't begrudge those also qualified students who did have a hook. In fact, I am very thankful for legacies who have contributed to the university over the years as it made my Duke education affordable through financial aid. A school like Brown just recently in the last few years became need-blind in its admissions. Some conjectured that because Brown doesn't care much at all about alumni donations in admissions (unless it's a huge number), alumni don't donate in as large numbers and thus becoming need-blind was a major hurdle. Not to get too sidetracked...elite college admissions are funny, somewhat random, and sometimes unfair. When you have a pool of qualified candidates that is 3x your allotted space, you have to look at some other factors that might not seem fair, but what you think will benefit the university and all of its students experience. I have been an alumni interviewer for Duke for 7 years, interviewed probably close to 30 candidates, and have had only ONE person I interviewed actually attend Duke (3 have gotten in) even though I've given the majority of them positive reviews. In my region, we interviewed 187 students and only 11 were admitted (8 waitlisted) this year.

Good luck at Vanderbilt!

[Reisen]

I think it's perfectly reasonable that a child of an active alumnus gets somewhat of a "hook." Duke wouldn't be where it is today without the generosity of prior graduates and it helps the university to continue to improve when it encourages and even rewards giving back. Duke ALSO sees a student whose parents did not go to college, a first generation American, or a student from an underrepresented minority group in a more favorable/desirable light (assuming the other "qualities" and statistics qualify the individual for Duke). Looking at these various factors as differentiators among the very qualified candidates seems perfectly legitimate if they want to improve the quality or diversity of all students at the university.

I am somebody who got into Duke as a white middle-class male without any legacy, so I did not have any traditional "hook," but I certainly don't begrudge those also qualified students who did have a hook. In fact, I am very thankful for legacies who have contributed to the university over the years as it made my Duke education affordable through financial aid. A school like Brown just recently in the last few years became need-blind in its admissions. Some conjectured that because Brown doesn't care much at all about alumni donations in admissions (unless it's a huge number), alumni don't donate in as large numbers and thus becoming need-blind was a major hurdle. Not to get too sidetracked...elite college admissions are funny, somewhat random, and sometimes unfair. When you have a pool of qualified candidates that is 3x your allotted space, you have to look at some other factors that might not seem fair, but what you think will benefit the university and all of its students experience. I have been an alumni interviewer for Duke for 7 years, interviewed probably close to 30 candidates, and have had only ONE person I interviewed actually attend Duke (3 have gotten in) even though I've given the majority of them positive reviews. In my region, we interviewed 187 students and only 11 were admitted (8 waitlisted) this year.

Good luck at Vanderbilt!

Well said. I think college admissions are a constant struggle between balancing "what's fair" versus "what's good for the University" (or, put another way, "What's in the University's self interest".

I, too, was a white-middle class male admit whose parents saved for my education (so I got no need-based aid) and was not a legacy (my grandmother attended in the 20's, but I don't think Duke knew that). I tend to lean towards the "merit" side of admissions, but recognize that diversity is important to Universities for many reasons, and so is alumni funding.

Interestingly, for a variety of reasons, my wife and I (both grads) do not have any plans to donate money (I have donated my time, repeatedly). We're Virginia residents, and I would be very pleased if my kids got into UVA for undergrad, then maybe went to Duke for grad school. Of course, things seldom work out how you think, and my daughter will probably wind up going to Northwestern or UC Boulder or something...

[DukieInKansas]

I want to thank those that have participated in the admissions process at Duke by being an alumni interviewer. My niece from eastern PA did not get admitted to Duke but had very positive things to say about the gentleman who interviewed her. Her prior alumni interview with another university was not a good experience. She was able to build on the Duke interview for some of her other interviews, including interviews with the Stamps Family Foundation which gave her a very generous scholarship.

So, if anyone here is the alumni that interviewed an Elizabeth in PA, thank you for the positive experience.

[cspan37421]

I want to thank those that have participated in the admissions process at Duke by being an alumni interviewer. My niece from eastern PA did not get admitted to Duke but had very positive things to say about the gentleman who interviewed her. Her prior alumni interview with another university was not a good experience. She was able to build on the Duke interview for some of her other interviews, including interviews with the Stamps Family Foundation which gave her a very generous scholarship.

So, if anyone here is the alumni that interviewed an Elizabeth in PA, thank you for the positive experience.

Was that Stamps F. F. at Mercer?

Had a kid around here who interviewed for Duke, but ended up choosing between Mercer and Univ of TN-knoxville. He got Stamps at Mercer, which is stunningly generous. They're practically paying you to go do school there. But (it was said) when he attended admitted students day, there was nothing special for Stamps scholars. They were not rude to him, but the manner in which his visit was received [Admissions staff/officer: "Oh, hi (name)." <walks away>] seemed to be completely incongruous with the generosity of the scholarship. He chose UTK instead, where he was made to feel welcome. He got money there too, though I doubt very much anything as generous as the Stamps thing, which was like winning the college lottery, from a benefits perspective.

The 40-something in me would swallow my pride, take the Stamps, and laugh all the way to Macon, Georgia. I think. There is something to feeling genuinely wanted (or, conversely, feeling that your benefactors are indifferent toward you or the next person in line) that can make financial considerations fade away.

[DukieInKansas]

Was that Stamps F. F. at Mercer?

Had a kid around here who interviewed for Duke, but ended up choosing between Mercer and Univ of TN-knoxville. He got Stamps at Mercer, which is stunningly generous. They're practically paying you to go do school there. But (it was said) when he attended admitted students day, there was nothing special for Stamps scholars. They were not rude to him, but the manner in which his visit was received [Admissions staff/officer: "Oh, hi (name)." <walks away>] seemed to be completely incongruous with the generosity of the scholarship. He chose UTK instead, where he was made to feel welcome. He got money there too, though I doubt very much anything as generous as the Stamps thing, which was like winning the college lottery, from a benefits perspective.

The 40-something in me would swallow my pride, take the Stamps, and laugh all the way to Macon, Georgia. I think. There is something to feeling genuinely wanted (or, conversely, feeling that your benefactors are indifferent toward you or the next person in line) that can make financial considerations fade away.

The Stamps Family Foundation works with almost 40 colleges and universities, including Mercer. I think this is the first year they have worked with Pitt and 5 incoming students received a scholarship. She will be in the Honors College there. I think she was made to feel very welcome as the honors college admissions person recognized her voice and called her by name. She has a friend that is a Stamps scholar at Wake Forest, who the Stamps Foundation executive director knew by name. They are generous with more than funding, also. They offer lots of opportunities to their scholars. It did make deciding which school to attend very easy.

[sagegrouse]

I give your Dad credit for doing all that that he could to try to get you into Duke. I'm not sure that an offer of a donation, at any point in the admissions process, would assure or help an applicant for admission to a school like Duke (unless, maybe, the donation was in the millions of dollars?). Although I have often wondered when a legacy applies to Duke, does the Admissions Office check with the development office to see if the alum(s) related to the applicant have been substantial donors to Duke over time and whether or not that helps (or hurts if no donations). Also, when I was at Duke for a campus visit about a month ago with my daughter, the admissions person who gave the admissions talk claimed that the they absolutely do not have any quota for number of admits from any high school; although, again, I'm not sure if that is really the case?
Vandy is a great school. You'll do well there and have a fun time. Maybe you can come back to Duke for grad school.

As an alum with a daughter who graduated from Duke, I will tell you what I was told: the Alumni Office has an office of alumni admissions who fight the good fight (or not, depending on your viewpoint) on behalf of alumni legacy applicants. The Development folks weigh in when substantial donors are involved. It should not be surprising that Bob Shepard is a university officer over both alumni and development.

As to a "quota" for grads of a certain prep school or high school, you are talking Harvard or Yale before the mid-1960s with respect to Andover, Phillips Exeter, Choate and other such schools. In about 1962 or 1963, Harvard changed its focus and began to actively recruit students on a nationwide basis. Would Duke throw a sop to a particular admissions counselor at a HS that has traditionally sent grads to Duke? Yeah, probably, but not very often IMHO (where the H is silent).

Duke also has some preference for North Carolina applicants, as manifested in the Benjamin Duke scholarships, which focus on leadership and are offered only to students in the Carolinas. This is practical to ensure that, in the long run, Duke has a strong footprint in its home state and region.

[throatybeard]

I think the major thing I've taken away from this thread--other than the fact that Tulane being slightly less than one-third Jewish is somehow offensive to the OP--is that I'm really not itching for my son (age 4.5) to get into an "elite" undergrad institution. I've worked in higher education for the last sixteen years, and with the exception of teaching two classes at Duke (one on Language Variety and one on Flannery O'Connor) when I was ABD, that's all been at state schools, research universities (NCSU, Mississippi State, UMSL)

Local culture is very important, and most research universities neglect undergraduate education at every turn, because in the trioka of research/teaching/service, the only faculty activity they reward is research. A few super-elite research universities actually have, or had, reputations of trotting the senior faculty out in front of the undergrads here and there. When I was young, Princeton and Duke had stellar reputations in that respect relative to their peer group. When I was at Duke the first go-round (1994-98), I saw precious few adjuncts and grad students. Part of this is because I was in a hardcore Humanities field (Classical Languages) and a lot of my electives were in the Music Dept. These disciplines cannot afford as many TAs as the richer Natural Sciences can. But I hate to even talk about it in this way, as it seems to demean adjuncts, most of who are incredibly good teachers. A lot of...most! people who aren't senior faculty are really good teachers.

Basically, I think everyone should read all of the incredibly discouraging articles in the Chronicle and on Slate and in other venues. Higher Ed is incredibly messed up right now. And as it gets more corporate and profit-driven, it will get more messed up.

As for my son...I'm not interested in his getting into a club with a private brand name like Duke or Vandy, for the sake of so doing. If he does and he gets a lot of financial aid, I won't stop him. But his parents are teachers, and there's no way we'll be able to save up for whatever Duke will cost in 2028. (Take whatever the comprehensive fee is now and add about $1500 a year for the next fourteen, so $21K more--probably around $300K for the degree). The snide, country club attitude about prestige needs to end, and Mizzou and Truman State are good enough. I work at a young (1963) school with little admissions selectivity but the same research standards as the Big Ten schools. On my Dept's graduate faculty, you know what the "worst" school anyone has a PhD from is? Oregon. Which is an amazing school. And she's amazing. There's a bunch of Berkeley and Penn and Michigan and Ohio State and I guess I went to Duke twice. I think my kid's best bet is for his parents to pay in-state tuition, for him to make a 3.9 or 4, and then leverage graduate or professional school for the opportunities. I'm just too sick of the toxic culture surrounding real or alleged prestige. I don't want him to become the kind of person who is overly proud of going to a Duke.

I wish higher education were about education rather than a snotty prestige-seeking rat race, in which the adjuncts make less than people who have a lot of hours at Wal-Mart, and in which most graduates have a 1950s-era notion of what a "good" school is. I'm terribly despondent about the state of the profession.

Congratulations to the OP for his Bama decision before his Vandy decision. It was a way better decision than most people with a degree or two know. Vandy's good too. No need to snot on it from a Duke perspective.

[Mike Corey]

the call was to "see if I can make a donation and get you in".

In 2003, the Wall Street Journal published an article (http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/Polk_Rich_Applicants.htm)(or series of articles, I should say) on how big donations affected college admissions at many "elite" schools. Duke was among the schools featured in the series, which later won the Pulitzer Prize (http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/PulitzerDG04052004.htm).


Most universities acknowledge favoring children of alumni who support their alma mater. But to attract prospective donors, colleges are also bending admissions standards to make space for children from rich or influential families that lack longstanding ties to the institutions....

Duke says it has never traded an admission for a donation. "There's no quid pro quo, no bargains have been struck," says Peter Vaughn, director of development communications. While it won't comment on individual cases, the university notes that financial gifts from parents are used to update facilities and provide financial aid, among other things.

...

Widely considered one of the nation's top ten universities, Duke accepts 23% of its applicants and turns down more than 600 high-school valedictorians a year. Three-fourths of its students score above 1320 out of a perfect 1600 on the SATs.

Yet in recent years, Duke says it has relaxed these standards to admit 100 to 125 students annually as a result of family wealth or connections, up from about 20 a decade ago. These students aren't alumni children and were tentatively rejected, or wait-listed, in the regular admissions review. More than half of them enroll, constituting an estimated 3% to 5% of Duke's student body of 6,200.

The strategy appears to be paying off. For the last six years, Duke says it has led all universities nationwide in unrestricted gifts to its annual fund from nonalumni parents: about $3.1 million in 2001-2002. A university fund-raising campaign recently met its $2 billion goal. While 35% of alumni donate to Duke, 52% of parents of last year's freshman class contributed to the university -- besides paying $35,000 in tuition and room and board.

I do not have a sense as to whether or not this practice has continued at this clip, but I've little doubt it is still in practice at Duke and among its peers.

The chase for paper is as competitive as ever, and as expensive as ever.

[duke79]

In 2003, the Wall Street Journal published an article (http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/Polk_Rich_Applicants.htm)(or series of articles, I should say) on how big donations affected college admissions at many "elite" schools. Duke was among the schools featured in the series, which later won the Pulitzer Prize (http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/PulitzerDG04052004.htm).



I do not have a sense as to whether or not this practice has continued at this clip, but I've little doubt it is still in practice at Duke and among its peers.

The chase for paper is as competitive as ever, and as expensive as ever.

Yea, my guess is that this sort of quid pro quo still goes on at Duke and many other higher education institutions. I remember reading that WSJ article back in 2003 which focused heavily on Duke (and the story mentioned that many other elite colleges and universities did the same thing - accepting a small number of marginal candidates if their family had the ability to make large donations to the school - but the story highlighted the fact that Duke was more aggressive than most schools in this practice). I was amazed that Duke would have voluntarily given out that sort of information to a journalist - assuming it did. At the time, I frankly thought it was not a flattering portrait of the university, although not a surprising reality. I'm sure Duke's argument is: Hey, we're not a 300-year old institution with an enormously wealthy alumni body, like many of the Ivy League Schools. It takes a lot of money to build a world class institution and we need to find ways to get that money. If we have to accept a relatively small number of candidates slightly below what we normally accept from very wealthy families who might be generous to Duke, then we will do that. I also remember that Duke claimed that they had tracked how these "special admits" had done academically and they had done no worse than the average student. As has been mentioned many times in this thread, the admissions process at any school is not always fair or rational. I would advise any applicant not to take it personally.

[drhbre]

Ability to donate is clearly one of many reasons that colleges make their admission decisions. Sports, diversity and many other reasons exist as well. We can all argue whether it is right or wrong. It just is.

My son just finished his freshman year in college and I have a daughter entering her senior year in high school. I am going into this with my second child with a much different attitude than the first. My best advice is try not to get too stressed about where you get in and where you don't. You can be successful and happy anywhere you go and sometimes things work out for a reason.

Our son did the "right" things in high school. Very high GPA (His school doesn't have class rank) with a very challenging course load (Calc BC as a sophomore etc..) with SAT scores over 2300. He founded a non-profit and was recognized in our county as youth volunteer of the year. Studied abroad during a high school summer. Competitive fencer at near NCAA level (Some coaches expressed moderate interest). Typical other extracurriculars. But, he got rejected from his higher ranked choices (Even Duke as a double legacy). The biggest thing he had going against him was being from a super competitive high school and schools will only accept so many from one school. Who knows what other reasons schools like MIT, Stanford and Brown had, but we'll never know.

So, he was deciding between University of Michigan and Carnegie Mellon. As a computer science major, Carnegie Mellon is one of the top schools. He decided to go to University of Michigan which most would question. Although he likes computer science, he questioned whether he had the same passion as others in the program. Michigan has been such a great fit for him. He likes being at a big school with all it offers and also being just one of many. He really dislikes dorm life and at schools like Michigan it is the norm to live off campus after freshman year. He got an amazing internship this summer and without being in the engineering school at Michigan this probably would not have been possible. I really don't think he would have been as happy at a number of the schools that would have been "higher" on his list. OK, he would have liked having better weather, but he has learned to deal with it.

So, my advice is that you can't control the process or rationalize the school's decisions. Just find a school that seems like a good fit and then make the best of it. You can be successful anywhere.

[DukieInKansas]

Ability to donate is clearly one of many reasons that colleges make their admission decisions. Sports, diversity and many other reasons exist as well. We can all argue whether it is right or wrong. It just is.

My son just finished his freshman year in college and I have a daughter entering her senior year in high school. I am going into this with my second child with a much different attitude than the first. My best advice is try not to get too stressed about where you get in and where you don't. You can be successful and happy anywhere you go and sometimes things work out for a reason.

Our son did the "right" things in high school. Very high GPA (His school doesn't have class rank) with a very challenging course load (Calc BC as a sophomore etc..) with SAT scores over 2300. He founded a non-profit and was recognized in our county as youth volunteer of the year. Studied abroad during a high school summer. Competitive fencer at near NCAA level (Some coaches expressed moderate interest). Typical other extracurriculars. But, he got rejected from his higher ranked choices (Even Duke as a double legacy). The biggest thing he had going against him was being from a super competitive high school and schools will only accept so many from one school. Who knows what other reasons schools like MIT, Stanford and Brown had, but we'll never know.

So, he was deciding between University of Michigan and Carnegie Mellon. As a computer science major, Carnegie Mellon is one of the top schools. He decided to go to University of Michigan which most would question. Although he likes computer science, he questioned whether he had the same passion as others in the program. Michigan has been such a great fit for him. He likes being at a big school with all it offers and also being just one of many. He really dislikes dorm life and at schools like Michigan it is the norm to live off campus after freshman year. He got an amazing internship this summer and without being in the engineering school at Michigan this probably would not have been possible. I really don't think he would have been as happy at a number of the schools that would have been "higher" on his list. OK, he would have liked having better weather, but he has learned to deal with it.

So, my advice is that you can't control the process or rationalize the school's decisions. Just find a school that seems like a good fit and then make the best of it. You can be successful anywhere.


I bolded the last line as this is what I tell the kids I know applying to colleges. To me, getting to know your professors and fellow students wherever you go is as important as the name of the school. Make the most of the opportunities in front of you and you will go far in life.

PS - I don't know how people handle this process with their kids. I know how difficult it was watching my niece and can't begin to imagine how much harder it would be if it was my child where I have to see their face with each rejection/wait list.

[cspan37421]

PS - I don't know how people handle this process with their kids. I know how difficult it was watching my niece and can't begin to imagine how much harder it would be if it was my child where I have to see their face with each rejection/wait list.

It's even worse when it's (quite possibly) not their fault. Imagine if your kid gets rejected by her first choice and you find out their high school counselor was 3 weeks late in submitting her recommendation. And explains it with a shrug.

And the world spins madly on.

[DukieInKansas]

It's even worse when it's (quite possibly) not their fault. Imagine if your kid gets rejected by her first choice and you find out their high school counselor was 3 weeks late in submitting her recommendation. And explains it with a shrug.

And the world spins madly on.

Exactly - there were apparently issues with the common app this year. It was difficult to get reference letters attached and sometimes her full transcript wasn't attached. Who knows what caused the rejections/wait lists? Just hate seeing her hurt but since her "consolation prize" was a full scholarship to one of the schools where she was accepted, it turns out ok. it certainly made making her final choice easier.

[devil84]

It's even worse when it's (quite possibly) not their fault. Imagine if your kid gets rejected by her first choice and you find out their high school counselor was 3 weeks late in submitting her recommendation. And explains it with a shrug.

And the world spins madly on.

Had that happen this past applications cycle with my son's med school applications. Because of technical difficulties, my son's stellar recommendation from a highly regarded professor/researcher who is his honors project adviser was finally successfully uploaded nearly three months late to ALL medical schools he had applied to. He was denied by all schools because his application wasn't complete on time. Wasted a couple thousand dollars in application fees and MCAT testing, plus putting off med school for at least another year.

It's one thing to be denied based on your merits, but it's another thing to be denied when technology appears to accept the recommendation a significant number of times, but didn't. Or when the guidance counselor is late.

[cspan37421]

Oh man, that is horrible. I am so sorry to hear that.

If only these things could be overcome by having a backup sent by courier with return receipt. But the problem is the applicant does not have custody of the originals, so we are at the mercy of the online system (a few widely-used ones are obviously not ready for prime time).

Redundancy / fail safe needs to be built into these systems.

[rthomas]

re: post 119: Great post and as someone in the biz, I will just point out that one big reason for this:


Higher Ed is incredibly messed up right now. And as it gets more corporate and profit-driven, it will get more messed up.


is this:

4142

[Reilly]

An admissions officer ... said, and I quote, "Duke helps those who help Duke" ...

The development office used to send over lists of kids' names to the admissions office, with "1s" "2s" and "3s" next to the names ....


... Vandy's good too. No need to snot on it from a Duke perspective.

"Snot" is not a verb.